- ------- - -· ___ .. __ VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. MONDAY, DECEMBER 19, 1993. NO. 81

December 19, 1983 The House met at 3:00 Mr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Tape No. 4114 Order, please! HR. HICKEY: ~m. SPEAKER: STATE]I!..ENTS BY lUNISTERS Mr. Speaker. The hon. the ~1inister of Social Services. SOME HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! HJ - 1 HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I sent a Telex to the hon. Romeo LeBlanc explaining our position on the Lakeside gorne expansion.

I indicated that what he had done was unacceptable to the Province, that the .extension to the Gander horne could only proceed after the other 160 units higher than Gander on the priority list had received a commitment for the allocation of interest subsidy funding in accordance with my letter to CMHC on December 6, 1982. I also sent a second Telex to Mr. LeBlanc indicating my willingness and desire to meet with him in St. John's or Ottawa in order to resolve this matter. A copy of all my Telexes and Mr. LeBlanc's reply is being tabled today for the information of my colleagues. It will be noted that Hr.

LeBlanc did not indicate any interest in such a meeting. Instead, he simply referred me to meet with federal C~lliC officials in the Province. I find this incredible, !-ir. Speaker, and 1 even worse,it indicates the level of interest Mr. LeBlanc really has in this matter. !~r. Speaker, Mr. LeBlanc is either totally uninformed on this matter or has chosen to ignore the facts • WP. han been dealing ~vith Canada Hortgage all along but there was no money. It was the politicians at the federal 9200

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4114 MJ - 2 M..~ . HICKEY : level who suddenly found some money. Therefore, that is the only level where this matter can be resolved. Mr. Speaker, as previously stated, I am prepared to meet \.,ith the federal minister any time, any pla ce, in an effort to resolve this issue. 920 'I

December 19, 1983 Tape 4115 PK - 1 MR. HICKEY: It must be noted that it was Mr. LeBlanc who established the level of communication when he made his announcement in Gander. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, another one of those famous political battles between Ottawa and the Provincet The minister now knows he is on the wrong end and he is just trying to polish up some ways and means 0~ saying that the money is not available. Now, Mr. Speaker, it was r1r. Fraser Lush - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

WARREN: - a member of the Conservative Executive in Gander 1 who said there was no priority list,And there was no priority list until this was announced for Gander, NOl'V" the minister is depriving the residents of §ander - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKEY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Social Services, on a point of order. MR. HICKEY: As much as I would like to allow the han. gentleman to go on, Mr. Speaker, I cannot let him deceive the House and,through the House,the public. He has no authority to say that there was no priority list. Mr.

Lush is not Minister of Social Services. Mr. Lush has a vested interest in Gander. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that his own colleague identified the four year plan,as announced by me in August of 1982 1 as a priority list, and I have a document I . which shows that he recognized that as a priority list. So he better check with his colleagues before he digs a hole for himself. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. 9202

December 19, 1983 Tape 4115 PK - 2 ~m. SPEAKER (Russell ): The bon. Leader of the Opposition to tha •t paint of order . MR. NEARY: I believe Your Honour will rule that is not a point of order, It is merely a difference of opinion between two bon. gentleman, and a very childish one at that. The bon. gentleman is being very childish. The administration are embarrassed over this matter , Mr. Speaker, and I would submit that all he is trying to do is to use up the time of my hon. colleague and there is no point of order. t1R. SPEARER: Order, please!

To that point of order ,it would appear that there is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. Having gone through all of that , it took the hon. m in~ster about two minutes to read his statement and we have used up half of that time in points of order and a few words by the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) 1 ~o his time is expired. MR . SPEAKER: Statements? MR. YOUNG: Are there any other Ministerial Yes, Mr . Speaker . 9203

December 19, 1993 Tape No. 4116 SD - 1 HR._ SPEP,KER (.Russell): The hon, Minister of Public Hear, hear. Works and Services. SOHE HON , ME.MBERS : !11R. YOUNG: Hr. Speaker, I am indeed pleased to avail ~~ this opportunity to provide this hon. House with up­ to-date information on the capital accounts construction programme of the department. Hr. Speaker, may I first make the point that the present heavy construction activities being carried out by the department are the rusults of a deliberate policy decision by this government to meet two equallv essential and related needs.

I refer, of course, tc the need to stimulate the economy of our Province by creating jobs in the private sector, and I also refer to the provision of badly needed facilities in health, education and administrative sectors to meet the ever-growing needs of our people. Mr.

Speaker, I think you will appreciate that facilities such as new hospitals, a new ultra-modern Institute of Fisheries and Marine Technology and a major extension to the Confederation Building will not only improve health and educational services but,in the case of the Fisheries Collea.e, will put this Province in the forefront and at the leading edge in fisheries and marine technology. May I also say that these major projects are of considerable benefit to the construction industry in this Province 1 which badly needed a boost.

I am also happy to say that these projects resulted in the creation of 800 jobs in the private sector in the current fiscal year. Mr. Speaker, these are not spin-off jobs, they are direct jobs which are an integral part of the projects themselves. In short, Hr. Speaker, these projects are of tremendous benefit 1 both directly and indirectly, to the provincial economy as a whole. 9204

December 19, 1983 Tape No . 4116 SD - 2 MR. YOUNG: ~1r. Speaker, with regard to specifics: We are well alon q ,.,i th, and indeed ahead of schedule, on the extension to the Confederation Building Comple~. Work on the Fisheries College is acceleratin<J~ contracts have b·een a\\farded, and more, large tender calls are imminent. A ne\oT hospital has just recently been completed at Port aux Basques and hospitals are under construction at Clarenville, Bona vista and Burin.

A ne, ., Cons t.~bulary building is under construction at Labrador Cit y, and an adult correctional centre is nearing completion at Happy Valley in the district of Naskaupi. Mr. Speaker, toThile these are some of the larger projects that my department is managing, there are other projects as well, and I ~~ attachin g a list of our current capital works projects which have been tendered thus far in this fiscal year. I think you \·rill find these very interesting and informative: 9205

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4117 NM - 1 MR. YOUNG: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, may I say with considerable pride that my department is honoured and proud to be the instrument of government to carry out this extremely important and valuable contribution to our economy and to the social needs of our Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I have here in my hand a Ministerial Statement that was delivered to my colleague, the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock), between a week and ten days ago, and it is only now that the hon. - MR. YOUNG: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: - delivered and I just took it out of his drawer there now - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - delivered a week or ten days ago by the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, who obviously could not get psyched up a week or ten days ago to make this statement. MR. BAIRD: Clean out his drawers again. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we have something new now in the House today - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: ·Order, please! MR.

NEARY: - a Ministerial Statement delivered, and I presume it was delivered to the press too as well as to my colleague but obviously it did not get any mileage and now the hon. gentleman is trying to prop himself up because they are smarting -, MR. YOUNG: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. 9206

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4117 NM- 2 MR . SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The bon. Minister of Public Wor ks and Services on a point of order. MR . YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I did deliver that copy of the Ministerial ~tatement to the bon . member and something happened that day and I did not deliver it, and the hon . manber has not been in the House since. So I was waiting for the hon. member to come back and he has not been back since last week. MR. NEARY : Mr. Speaker, that is not a point of order. My colleague has been in the House since. Even if he was not in the House, Mr .

Speaker, does it take ten days for the bon. gentleman to get himself psyched up enough to make this silly,foolish statement that he just made to try to leave the impression that they are doing somethino 1 -.Then 1in actual fact,what the people of this Province are demanding are plans as to how the administration intend to deal with the economy and the horrible financial mess that this administration has gotten the Province into? MR . SPEAKER: To that point of order, I have to rule that the hon . Minister of Public Works and Services did not rise on a valid point of order. 9207

December 19, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape No . 4117 NM - 3 ORAL QUESTIONS: The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Acting Minister of Justice, since I notice the minister has not been in his seat for a week or ten days now. CrmJ.~ the hen. Acting Minister of Justice inform the House if the police have succeeded yet in recovering eleven hand guns that were stolen from the Plymouth Building about a week or ten days ago? Could 920B

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4118 ah-1 MR.NEARY: the han. gentleman tell the House if they have had any success in recovering these guns? MR.SPEAKER (Russell ): Council. MR.MARSHALL: The han. President of the Mr. Speaker, the matter is still under investigation and up to Friday they had not recovered the guns. MR.NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The han. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the han. gentleman. Would the han. gentleman inform the House as to what kind of guns they were that were stolen? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hand guns.

MR.NEARY: Well,I am asking the minister to tell the House if they were all hand guns,because I understand there were a variety of guns in this particular building. Would the han. gentleman confirm that they were all hand guns and not rifles, Mr . Speaker? MR.SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that they were all hand guns. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR.NEARY: The han. Leader of the A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the han. gentleman inform the House where these guns carne from?

How did the government come into possession of these guns in the first place? Were they seized by the courts as a result of infractions 9209

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4118 ah-2 MR. NEARY: of the wildlife regulations in this Province? Or, Mr.Speaker, were they getting ready to send them to the IRA over in Ireland? Would the hon. gentleman tell the House where these guns originated from in the first place? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a serious matter like that I can verify for the hon. gentleman that they did not come from the IRA.

The situation with respect to them,where they first came from 1 I would like to be take notice of that and I will respond to the hon gentleman later on today when I get the exact information as to where the guns came from. MR.NEARY: Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the han. gentleman tell us precisely where these guns, these firearms were stored and who had possession of the office in which they were stored? MR.SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council.

MR.MARSHALL: They were stored in a building under under governmental control down on Plymouth Road. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: ltr. Speaker, I asked the hon. gentleman to tell the House who had the space rented& Was it the Justice Department , was it the Department of 9210

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4118 ah-3 MR. NEARY: Public Works? Under whose jurisdiction , whose charge were these firearms placed? Who was in charge? 9211

December 19, 1983 Tape 4119 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I want to be accurate in my responses. Under which particular department it was is something I was not privy to and I will check that as well and give the answer to the hon. gentleman. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Would the han. gentleman confirm for the House that these rifles were placed in an office - HR. WALSH: Hand guns. MR. NEARY: No, rifles, and firearms.

I will come to the question about why they took the hand guns. Would the hon. gentleman confirm that the space was rented by the Lottery Licencing Committee under the Department of Justice? Would the han. gentleman tell us if that is so, that these firearms were housed in an office that was rented by the Lottery Licencing Board? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, as I told the han. gentleman, I will look into that and I will have an answer for him before the sitting rises this afternoon. MR. NEARY: Okay, that is fine, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, then. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman tell the House what security measures were implemented to protect these firearms '? Were they just locked in an office 9212

December 19, 1983 Tape 4119 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: down in the Plymouth Building? Wa s there any security? Was there anybody looking after these firearms? Mr. Speaker, \'lould the hon. gentleman give the House that information? MR . SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Presid ent of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I will certainly give the Ho use that in£ormation, but I want to be quite accurate in what I say in response to a question of that nature,and I am sure the hon. gentl eman would appreciate that. I will get him that informat .ion. MR. NEARY: Mr . Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. NEARY : Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate that. This is a very serious matter . We have eleven hand guns in the hands of somebody on the loose. MR. WALSH : Firearms. MR. NEARY : No, eleven hand guns . Let me ask the hon. gentleman this question as a supplement.ary. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. ..MR . NEARY: Is it correct that there were a large number of firearms in this particular office but that the culprits only took the hand guns and left the other firearms behind? 9213

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4120 t1J - 1 HR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: ~lr. Speaker, I said I will get the details and I will advise the han. gentleman and the House this afternoon as once again I emphasize the fact before giving answers of this nature, I want to be accurate in the information that is conveyed. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. Im. SPEAKER: The han. the ~eader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: That is fine, ~1r. Speaker, as long as we get all the information, the answers to the questions that I am asking the han. gentleman.

Would the han. gentleman find out 1 if he cannot answer me directly now,if the firearms that were left behind by the culprit~ have now been moved to a safer place?Because I understand that the office was broken into twice in a ten day perioc~ F~om December 7 up to December 17, a ten day period, the office was broken into twice.An~ T want to find out from the han. gentleman after the first time what securit y measures were taken by the law enforcement officers and if the eleven hand guns wer~ stolen the first time the office was broken into or did they come back and have a second go to get eleven hand guns that they stole?

HR. SPEAKER: Council. ~!R. r1ARSHALL: l1r. Speaker. HR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. The han. the President of the I will take notice of that, J..1r. Speaker. The han. the Leader of the MR. NEARY: r1r. Speaker, also I hope the han. gentleman has made note of the question that~ asked about the g 211·

December 19, 1983 Tape ~1o . 4120 ?-•J - 2 ~1R . Nl"....ARY: security for the building and the office where these firearms \•rere stored. NoN, ll.tr. Speaker, I would like to also ask the hon. gentleman if the r.~embers of the NeNfound land Constabulary and the R01P have been notified . I presume this is just a routine matter of notifying the law enforcement officers that these eleven hand guns are stolen. I understand the culprits put them in a mail bag and \.,ralked off with them .

Have they been notified, have they been given the serial numbers and so forth and is L~ere a province-wide se arch going on for Ll-tese hand guns -? ~m . SPEAKER (Russell) : Tne hon . the President of the Council . M..'l\ . Mll.RSHALL : Mr.

Speaker, that I can reply to directly : Of course we are aware of the fact that this theft took place .and I do not want to give precise details .,.lithout as I say, being completely accurate in what I am saying. l·Te '"ere a\'rare il'nmediately as soon as the hand guns ~o~ere taken, and I can say that the matter is under intense investigation now by the police authorities. 9215

December 19,1983 Tape 4121 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: My last information,which was on Friday 1 was that the investigation was continuing. I will get an up-to-date report on it as soon as I get an opportunity after the House is over to check with the Deputy Minister of Justice and the Associate Deputy. MR. NEARY: Well 1 a final supplementary, on .this matter, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER{Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: It seems it is a very serious matter indeed.

But what is more serious and frightening is the fact that these firearms were left in an office, the door was locked and that somebody was able to open the door with a crowbar. Would the han. gentleman tell the House why this happened? Why werethere so many firearms put in a building where there was very little or no security? Why did this happen in the first place?

Did not the Justice Department or the law enforcement people or t~~- -~~urts,or whoever _was resp?n~ible for these firearms, wh y not take the necessary security to see that these firearms were protected and that the y would not get into the wrong hands? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, you know, very often the han. gentleman's questions become reported .. ·--- - --- . .... ~- - from time to time as statements of fact, 'Hr.

Neary asked this,' and,you know 1 consequently it is taken as a stat~ment of fact. , ____ ---- -·- And I would certainly not say the details of the question tne han. gentleman is asking - his

interpretation of it is his

interpretation .. - I am not sav:i .n,. that all of the questions . that he has asked lacked some substance about some of the things he mentioned. But I think in some of the cases the han. gentleman may, you know, be possibly overstating the situation. I do not know. All I can say to the han. gentleman is if he wants to continue the line of questioning,that is his own prerogative,But I will look into the situation, ·we knew there 9216

December 19,1983 Tape 4121 PK -2 MR. MARSHALL: had been a theft of gand guns, it is being investiaged by the police. It occurred in the building on Plymouth Road. Yes, it is subject now to intense investigation. A~ to the other sit~ation,from whence the place was rentea; y.ou know, what security arrangements had been in effect, and the other questions that the hon. gentleman mentioned, I certainly undertake to the House that I shall secure the information and I will give it to the House as soon as I receive it. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. 9217

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4122 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Supplementary, the han. Leader of the Opposition. ~1R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman will recall that I did not make a statement of fact, I said, I as I understand it I I and t:le han. gentleman can confirr!l or deny. This is Question Period,and when I put questions to the han. gentleman they are not in the form of statements they are in the form of questions.

But I would like to ask the han. gentleman if he will make a full and compre"l"!nsive report on this matter before this day is over, stressing the security aspect of it.B"!cause I am at a loss to understand, Mr. Speaker, why so many firearms could be locked in a office with little or no security. I would like .for the han. gentleman to address himself to that question when he brings the information into the House. And I hope the hon. gentleman will be able to do it before this day is over. MR. SPE.ZLT<ER: The han. President of the Council.

MR. t~RSKALL: --- Mr, Speaker, certainly I will make asfull and comprehensive a statement as I possibly can. I know the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Neary[ would not wish me to give out details that might be privy of the Department of Justice through ~he police investigation that could impede the investigation. But certainly with respect and to the extent that we can give full information with .out impeding that investigation -of it 1we most certainly shall. t1R. WARREN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. M..~. SPEAKER: SupplementRry, the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. ~1R. WARREN : Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the :1inister of Health. I understand that the Progressive Conservative Party in Ottawa has verbally, at least, showed support to the new bill that ~'las brought in by the Uinister 9218

December 19, 1983 Tape No . 4122 so - 2 ~1R . tilAR.~ : of Health and Welfa re about aboli shi ng hospital user fees. Could the Minister of Health (Mr . Housel advise the House if the government he is part of does agree \"ith t...~e new bill that was brought in in the Ho use of Commons? MR . SPEAKE~ (R ussell) : )!R . HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Health. t-Ir. Speaker, the new act is tabled in the Hou se of Commons . It has been supported, _but ·I think he understat:s \oJhat has been supported , The bill has been sup ported , I guess , in its totality 1 it is ~n~ ~ust the user fee aspect of it.

And I have not qive'l the official response of government but the government 's stan~e of course, at tni: s point· in time ,is t.'lat ther e· a"re two or three aspects of it that \-Te disagree wit.i} . Firs t of all, 9219

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4123 HJ - 1 MR. HOUSE: the aspect that the Province's flexibility is taken away is one 1 and we take objection to a level of government that brings in a statute to tell us how to govern the Province when that particular governMent b.~s soJ:~ething like a ~i3Q billion nefici t ln.st vear. It is very easy, ~1r. Speaker, for anvbody to get up and support the kind of statements in that particular act if they have not.got the responsibility of delivering a health care programme.

For the han. members'· benefit, I ~ill just state that the act 1if it is acce~ted as stated by the minister, Honique Begin, we have got until next year to look at it, that is next April, and we will be just doing that. I might point out that we are going to be meeting now with our federal counterparts sometime in the middle of January to see what action can be taken. !-1R. WAR.'illN : HR. SPEAKER (Russell) Hountains. Hr. Speaker. The han. the nernber for Torngat MR. Y'!ARREN: ar. Speaker, a sm:n?lementary to the minister.

Could the minister advise the House roughly how much money has been collected in this Province during the past twelve months in hospital user fees? MR. SPE&~R: The han. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker, there is a number of kinds of user fees. The one I think the objection is to is the five dollars per day. There is another kind of user fee where it is for serni-9rivate rooms and that sort of thing 1 and these are usual~v covered by insurances. So we are looking at approximately $1 million coming in from the user fee of five dollars per day.

I want to point out to the House of Assembly that this is five dollars per day for a maximum of fifteen days in any one illness 1 and we have exemptions for old people who are on lon~-terM 9220

December 19, 1983 '!'ape ~!o . 4123 HJ - 2 MR . HOUSE : t-.~elfare , or anybody on wel fare for that ma tter, and senior citizens and anvbody el se who has a str U':ftJle C<".n denonstrate it ~.s rlif"'=icuJ.t. l)ne of the things I have said often,too 1is that it is not an onus on people when they can live more cheaply in hospital ­ just five dollars a da~! - than they can at hol'\e. HR. '"lARP.EN: Mr. Speaker. 9221

December 19,1983 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: Tape No. 4124 ah-1 The han. member zor Mr. Speaker, for the minister to make such a statement, they could live more cheaply in hospital than they can at horne, surely to ~ess the rninis~er is not saying that people go in hospital to live cheaper? Mr.

Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister is would the minister consider, particularly if the new Health Act is passed in the House of Commons- well, then probably the -. . ~. minister would have no choice- but would the minister conside~ before he is placed in the corner by th~ federal government, would he consider dropping the hospital user fees in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. MR.HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, whatever comes to pass will come to pass when the legislation is promulgated, when it is brought in, when the regulatory aspects are given.

For instance 1 it does not say in the Act what fees will be allowed, all that is going to be done by regulation, and we have to wait and see what is going to happen there in that respect. One of the things that I have been saying, Mr. Speaker, is that I am afraid that by impeding any province's ability to raise funds, . ·-. - it could be to the detriment of health care in Canada. Now I have said a number of times we have an ambulance programme that makes hospitals more accessable to people.

That is an aspect of Medicare that I think is very important, getting people to hospital, yet that is not covered under Medicare. I have an amendment to

an act here right now which is going to cost $1 million a year for making optometry an insurable service. It is not mandatory, the federal government does not 9222

Decem ber 19 ,1983 Tape No . 4124 ah-2 ~1R.HOUSE: help pay for it 1 but we think it is importan~ So, Mr. Speaker, if we have to out down on the kind of little user fees we got,it could impede our deliverly of health care programmes - SOME HON.MEMBERS : Shame, shame ! MR .HOUSE : -some that are very important to the hon. member 's district , when people can fly from Nain to the major hospitals in the Province without cost . And that is the Province doing that, Mr . Speaker. So we will not be takin g any action about cutting out any user fee at this point in time .

We wi .ll be looking at what transpires in the next three to four months and we will make our decision once we have discussed it with the federal people and we have taken every step we can to see what can be done with our counterparts in the rest of Canada . MR.NEARY: Mr .Speaker . MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon . Leader of the Opposition. 9223

December 19 , 1983 Tape 4125 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). Would the han. gentleman agree to table in this House any agreements , correspondence, or letters, all the details in connection with the Green Bay ferry fiasco? Would the hon. gentleman table all the pertinent items in this hon. House? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr . Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition continues to ask the same questions, and I will continue to give the same answers.

Reference in the Auditor General's report was answered by my department in the departmental responses. Any further action that will be taken on that particular matter will be taken up by Public Accounts Committee,at which time all the necessary documents and information can be made available. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Do I understand the han. gentleman correctly that he is refusing to give this information to the House? Mr. Speaker, the House supersedes everything else. ~he House is the highest court in SO~ffi HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: This House is the highest court in the land, and the Public Accounts Committee is only a committee of this House. Now is the hon. gentleman refusing to table all of the documentation that I asked for in connection with this Green Bay fisasco in this House? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: The han. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, as it relates to the Public Accounts CommitteeJit is very much a part of this House of Assembly and the information and the report from the Public Accounts Committee is always tabled in this House. I am indeed 9224

December 19, 1983 Tape 4125 PK - 2 MR. DAWE: not refusing to table the information, but I indicated to the hon. member before that there is a process in place whereby that information can be made available and that will be done in due course,I am sure . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Bear, hear! MR . NEARY: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: Mr . Speaker, I have to disagree with the hon . gentleman. I know I cannot debate the matter, but the fact of the matter is that the process in place is this House . Now let me ask th e hon. ge ,ntletnan, Mr.

Speaker ; the other day, I believe it was on Friday 1 the Pre~ier scooted outside of this House and released a bit of information that apparently is backfiring on him, he thought it was going to set the world on fire . Now, Mr . Speaker, we are prepared to have a Royal Commission of Inquiry into that matter that the Premier - 9225

December 19, 1983 Tape 4126 EC - 1 AN HON. 1-lliMBER: You are, but l•!e are not. MR. NEARY: No, I know you are not. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we are prepared to have that matter included in any Royal Commission of Inquiry that the administration may set up, if the hon. gentleman has the courage to ask for a Commission of Inquiry and send for documents and witnesses in connection with this matter. MR. SPEAKER: Transportation. MR. DAWE: The han. the Minister of Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure there was a question there but I would like to po~nt out that on a number of occasions last week the han. member opposite refused to ask•the Premier a question. As a matter of fact, Px. Speaker, all day on Friday he refused to ask a question at all as it related to the ferry oper­ ations. It seems to me that the member again is carrying on his practice o£ asking questions when the Premier is not here again today. So I suppose when the Premier gets back he will drop the ferry situation again. It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that the han. member is afraid to ask questions when the Premier is here. MR. NEARY: li!R. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: P.r. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I was not afraid to ask for a Royal Commission of Inquiry one time in this H.ouse 1and the han. administration there opposite have had inquiries on everything 1 including a television set. 9226

December 19, 1983 Tape 4126 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Why not have an inquiry into the $1.6 million of taxpayer money that was squandered and wasted? And it is not my fault the Premier is not in his seat. If he has nothing to hide and he does not fear anything, let him set up this Commission of Inquiry to examine this matter. Hr. Speaker, why not have a Commission of Inquiry? Why is the hon. gentleman refusing to have a Commission of Inquiry into this matter? MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) : The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, it is very simple.

In my opinion, being the minister responsible for the department, having looked at all the documentation that has gone on in this matter, I see no evidence of any wrong­ doing, Mr. Speaker, as it relates to this whole issue. If I do not see any evidence o£ wrongdoing, I do not see any need for any kind of an inquiry past the one that is already being done by the Auditor General and will be done by the Public Accounts Committee. MR. NEARY: 1-l...r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: Let me say to the hon. gentleman that nobody is accusing the administration of any wrongdoing or anybody else of any wrongdoing. What we are saying to the hon. gentleman is that the Auditor General said that this ~1.6 million that was paid out could have been avoided. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, my understanding is, and I want the hon. gentleman to tell me this: Was there money paid out for operating subsidies and for operating expenses and for the annual refit of the Green Ba y Transoort II 9227

December 19, 1983 Tape 4126 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: while the ferry was idle during that two and one-half years? NR. WARREN: Yes or no. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman has to say yes or no, Mr. Speaker. the hon. gentleman 9228

Dece~ber 19, 1983 Tape No. 4127 !·!J - 1 H:>. • ns_'\!lY : can go to the red book all he ~Tants. '"'1n.t I am asking the han. gentleman to tell the House \vas there any operating expenses paid out, ~vas there any operating subsidies paid to the ferry mvner and TtTere there any monies paid out for refits during the time, bra and a half years, when this ferry was idle? HR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DA\•TE: Mr. Speaker, I think I ~vill be the judge of whether I answer yes or no to any of the han. member's questions.

As it relates to this particular question that he has asked again for about the fifth or sixth time, I ~Till answer it in the same manner. If the han. gentleman ~vill look at page 42b- another indication, Mr. Speaker, of saret.hirig that ~vas full~' em.laLTled alt.'lough t':l.e hon. the I!lernber refused to accent the explanation of ~1hy the pages were so nlli":'.bered - the ans~"Ter is there, !'r • :O_oertker. A:1ything further than that 1 I am sure will brought out in any subsequent information thought necessary by the Public Accounts Committee. SOHE HON. :-1EHBERS: MR. NEARY: r.1R. SPEA..'I{ER: Opposition. HR.

NEll..RY: Hear, hear! Hr. Speaker. The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, let me direct a question to the han. the Hinister of Finance (Dr. Collins) who,under the Financial Administration Act in this Province, is responsible for seeing that money expended by the public treasury is paid out legitimately, not paid out improperly 1and t.~ere is no squander or waste. Would the han. 9229

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4127 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: gentleman tell the House 1 because of the matter that has drawn so much attention by the Auditor General in the Auditor C~neral's report, what action the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has taken to recover all of this money or part of the money that was pa~d to the owner of that ferry, '1r. Speaker, to quote the Auditor General, 'A situation that should not have happened MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, these expenditures were ffected through the Department of Transportation.

When a department is processing expenditures 1the Comptroller General of the Province has to satisfy himself that the expenditures are within the mandate of the department and there are funds allocated by this House for that purpose and there are funds present in the account for that purpose. My understanding is that all of these matters were satisfactory to the Comptroller General so there is no requirement on me to set up any particular investigation into the matter.

Now granted the Auditor General raises some questions on the issue and this House put in place a mechanism whereby such questions could be processed. That mechanism is to report to this House what the Auditor General feels he has some concerns about, 9230

December 19, 1983 Tape no. 4428 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: this House then transfers those concerns to a special committee set up by this House, the Public Accounts Committee; the Public Accounts co~nittee is given the instructions and the mandate to carry out a thorough investigation into all aspects of the Auditor General's concerns and then to report back to this House . And with all that mechanism in place 1I certainly do not feel that the Department of Finance,at this point in time certainly 1 has any role to play in carrying out another investigation. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously hon. gentlemen there opposite do not understand how the system works. This House supersedes everything else. This is the highest court in this land. And the hon. gentleman now is abdicating his responsiblity and shirking his responsiblity and throwing it off on the Public Accounts Committee, Mr. Speaker. The taxpayers,! tell you,of this Province, have a lot to be concerned about with that kind of arrogance and attitude on the part of the administration.

Now would the hon. gentleman tell the House if the Comptroller of the Public Treasury was aware that Treasury Board had advised the Lieutenant-Governor in Council not to go ahead with this proposal, that the previous Minister of Transportation had advised not to go ahead with this proposal,and that the Justice Department had advised the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to go to arbitration? r'ii'as the Comptroller of the Treasury aware of these facts at the time the $1.6 million was paid out to Mr. Wilbur Weir? 9231

December 19, 1983 Tape No . 4428 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Fina nc e. DR. CO LLI NS : Mr. Speaker , the hon. member is making certain statements drawn from his

interpretation of the facts. I am not going to comment on it at this stage. I think that he undoubtedly will have the opportunity,and I am sure he will take it up, to put the same

interpretation to the ?ublic Accounts Co!IU!littee when it sits,and I think that that is the proper mechanism in place at the . present time . MR . SPEAKER : The han . the member for Torngat Mountain s. MR . WARREN : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge). I understand ·- .... -.... · .. -· during the past school year there have been some 100 or more teachers brought into Newfoundland from other parts of Canada and other parts of the world. Could the minister advise what was the necessity of bringing extra teachers into the Province. Are they some specialized teachers that we need in thi s Provi nce? 9232

December 19, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) .: MS. VERGE: Tape No. 4129 SD - 1 The han. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, the collective agreement between the a~ployers of teachers 1 namely 1 school boards and the provincial government 1 with the NTA as the representative of individual teachers 1 contains a local preference clause saying that preference has to be given to residents of Newfoundland and Labrador in hiring teachers to staff this Province's schools.

Now,as I assume all han. members remember,there was an increase in the number of teaching positions across this Province from the last school year to the present year of about 500 - the total number of teaching jobs increased from 8,000 to 8,500 - and that put a strain on the resource of qualified teachers. There has been a shortage of qualified specialists in certain fields and these include physics, chemistry, some types of special education for students with particular handicaps or special problems, industrial art.s, home economics, art and music.

And wit~out being able to cite specific statistics,although I can get accurate data with a couple of hours notice, I can give my general impression that school boards ~ve only had to recruit people from outside this Province for some of these specialities for which ~o~e are short native resident specialists.

And also I understand that school boards which have in their districts small,isolated communities, and these would include communities in the han. member •·s district of Tornga t ~ountains 1 have had difficulty recruiting Newfoundland and Labrador residents and have had to look beyond the boundaries of our own Province. MR. SPEAKE 'R: Order, please~ Time for Question Period has expired ~ 9233

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4129 SD - 2 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STJI.NDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES M.~. SPEAKER (Russell}: and Services. The hon. Minister of Public Works MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, in accordance with

Section 21 of the Pippy Park Commission Act, I have the pleasure of tabling the annual report for 1982-83. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HISCOCK: PRESENTING PETITIONS The hon. member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the residents of the community of Pinsent Arm in the district of Eagle River, Pincent Arm, like Norman Bay in the district of Eagle River, have the distinction of being the only two places in the Province that do not have electricity provided them by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. Under the regulations of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro you need to have fifteen hook-ups.

Now they have changed this, and instead of just having fifteen hook-ups, they say you have to have fifteen residential hook-ups. There are over fifteen hook-ups in the community but not necessarily residential - there are about twelve. They have a school which, I may say, is a disgrace to this Province; two teachers teaching in one classroom, 9234

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4130 PK - 1 MR. HISCOCK: from Kindergarten to Grade X. We also have in that community no water or sewerage, no postal delivery. The prayer of the petition is quite simple: "We petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to have Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro install diesel power into the community of Pinsent Arm", and it is signed by the residents of that com~unity. Mr. Speaker, there is also a fish plant in that community which looks after the processing of salmon and cod from all over the region, and it provides employment for up to about thirty people.

Here they tvant the basic things for society and they cannot get it. There is a letter of support from the Public Health nurse in that area and she points out that under The School Act of 1970,

Section A, subsection (

d) page 14, "Subject to this act Regulations of every school board shall (

d) provide safe drinking water, adequate sanitary facilities, and proper lighting, heat, ventilation and cleaning for the schools under their control". Without electricitv it is very difficult if not impossible to meet these standards. She also says that in the community of Norman Bay and Pinsent Arm an extensive hygiene programme has been compiled and will be started when the travelling conditions permit regular visits.

The addition of a generator could run a jet pump and electrical washing machines which would not only improve conditions in the schools but also in the homes and enable us to get at the root of this problem. Proper lighting in school would eliminate another problem, and that is visual strain. Oil lamps are of little benefit on dark days and at night, and of little help when working close to l~ps . .!'Yf...r. St:)eaker, vou would never think by the way this government gets uo and talks about all of its programmes that they have ongoing, building a 9235

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4130 PK - 2 MR. HISCOCK: new extension to Confederation Building, building an Arts and Culture Center in Labrador City, when they need further employment. They provide a rent-free apartment for our Premier, and here ~Te have children and people in our districts, citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador, who do not have even the basic necessities. I think it is a crime. I think it is a gross oversight on the part of this government.

I cannot unders~and in all honesty in this season of Christmas that is now corning, when we talk about equality and we talk about sharing and the greatest gift is giving, how this government knows one thing and one thing only, and that is taking from the taxpayers of this Province and giving back very little in return. And, as I said, the co~unity of Pinsent Arm is self-sufficient. There is no one there on welfare. They provide employment for people from other communities who come into that area.

They are twelve miles from Charlottetown, so they could have a pm-Ter line extended overland from Charlottetown to Pinsent Arm and ~-Then the oeople in Charlottetown move out to 9236

December 19, 1983 Tape 4131 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: Square Islands and other areas, the generating of electricity is already taking place in the plant in Charlottetown and could help equalize their plant there, with which they have a problem in the Summer. But no, Mr. Speaker, this government will get up now and talk about the Up~er Churchill contract and say, 'If we had that straightened out, then the people in Norman Bay and Pinsent Arm would get t.IJeir qenerator. Mr.

Speaker, we do not want to go back into the past but one thing about the coronunities of Pinsent Arm and Norman Bay i-s that they are in the past, they are back in the Dark_ Ages. And for people to have to do a full day~s washing on a scrubbing board in this day and age, and not to have refrigeration to keep their fish and M.ec> .t for the Winter ""·they have to rely heavily on a salted food diet.

I think it is arout tilre t.l-]at the governr.ent of b'l.is Provir..ce live up to its responsibility and instruct Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to install - the people of Pinsent Arm and Norman Bay say one thing only - t.lJere were about twelve generators on the Northern Peninsula and those communities and Castors River and North were combined into the provincial power grid - that they '·rill even put up with a second-hand generator, and yet Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and the provincial government even refused this. The people have been more than patient, more than tolerant, but as I said, Mr.

Speaker, their patience is running out and they are becoming extremely cynical about government and its motives in not continuing with the upgrading of services in that area. I ask that this petition be placed with micisters responsible. Thank you. MR. NEARY: Are you sure you are talking about Newfoundland? 9237

.I:L December 19, 1983 MR. HISCOCK: MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Tape 4131 EC - 2 Yes, unfortunately. Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably put forward by my colleague, the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock). Knowing the Labrador Coast, Mr. Speaker, as I do, I believe it is just another indi­ cation of this government's attitude towards the people of Labrador. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, if a fellow were to go out towards Gull Island, a recreational Summer resort for a lot of St.

John's Townies, he would notice that there are hydro poles, that the Newfoundlane Hydro Commission is ready to install hydro facilities for a bunch of St. John·'s Townies who want to have Summer cabins out on the Hodgewater Line. I would think, Mr. Speaker, they should first make sure that full-time residents are given the opportunity of having hydroelectricity, especially when we are aware that there are eight or ten small hydro generators lying idle in some buildings throughout the Province, that are not being used. And surely, the minister responsible for Energy in this Province (Mr.

Dawe}, if he cannot win the battle for the offshore with Ottawa or the battle over the Upper Churchill, the least he can do is win the battle for the people of Norman Bay and Pinsent Arm. It would not 9238

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4132 ah-1 !1R.WARREN: be a very big battle for the minister to fight.There would be approximately fifty people in the two communities, all told. The minister is probably going to put out a search warrant lookin ~J o::._ __ ·- the guns that were stolen, so why does he not put a search warrant out and look for four or five,or even one of those four or five or ten generators that are lying idle throughout the Province, and give the people in Pinsent Arm and the people in Norman Bay the opportunity of having electricity in their homes.

Christmas is just around the corner and surel y goodness - we all know it is going to be l too)ate for this Christmas, ' ' so the people in Pinsent ll_ m ~X: _d_Nor~<m B~y will h~y~ . to continue as they have bee _n .. ~c:r ~ th~ . past number of . years. Surely goodness the minister should take every consideration in responding to those two petitions. The han. member presented a petition, I think- - it was about a week :)r so ago on behalf of Norman Bay,and it was basically the same petition as this one from Pinsent Arm. All we are asking for are two generators.

I am sure the cost would not be nearly as exorbitant as the waste that has been going on in this government over the past number of years. I support the prayer of the petition, Mr.Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. President of the Council. MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this petition is the same as the answer to the other one: I can certainly support this petition. vle would like to see the people of Pinsent Arm get electricit y and they will get electricity as soon as possible. But unfortunately what it all comes down to is a matter of dollars and cents.

I am not going to regurgitate what C'1D '-''-.J;j

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4132 ah-2 MR. MARSHALL: I said with respect to the other petitions except to say that we will do our utmost with respect to bringing these services there as soon as possible, But it comes down to dollars and cents. The only thing that I will observe is the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.Warren) who indicates when he said they may lose the battle for the offshore, and they may lose the battle for the hydro,but they can find the money so surely they can look after the people in Pinsent Arm. That is what the whole problem is all about.

You cannot just manufacture money, and when we get our rights, and we get the rights to our resources, we will be able to provide these needs and other needs much more fully and much better. AN HON. MEMBER: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): petitions? MR.S:2EAKER: Hear, hear! Are there any other ORDERS OF THE DAY The debate last day was adjourned by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: Mr • Speaker, what we have in front of us now is a bill, Bill No. 62, "An Act Respecting Certain Powers Of Appointment': I hesitate to have to do this again, Sir, to remind the House that here we are six or seven days before Christmas Day debating a bill that will put more authority in the hands of hon. gentlemen there opposite who could not ever run a bull's­ eye shop, Mr. Speaker.

Now,if we were debating five or six or seven days before Christmas Day a bill to try to remedy and correct the terrible state of the Newfoundland economy,or to deal with the incredible mess that the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) has gotten the Province in,or if we were dealing with measures and plans or policies 9240

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4132 ah-3 MR.NEARY: to create jobs for Newfoundlanders who are unemployed,especially young Newfoundlanders,then we would not mind staying here until Christmas Day . But what we are being forced to debate, Mr .Speake r, is a silly bill that will remove the authority 9241

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4133 !1J - 1 ~R. NEARY: from the Cabinet on the eight floor of Confederation Building and delegate more responsibility and more authority to ministers. Now, r~. Speaker, the situation at the present time is that these ministers cannot cope or handle what they aready have,let alone give them more authority. ~he other day I went up and down the benches there and showed the House beyond any doubt, Mr.

Speaker, the incompetent ministers that we have across the wa y in the adrninistration,but what is even more serious than that is the type of situation \ve saw develop today with the Hinister of Finance ·(Dr. Collins) and the ~Hnister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) when they thumbed their noses at this House, they just shrugged their shoulders and said ·~·Te do not have to provide any information any more to this Rouse because ~ve have a Cornrni ttee of the House that ~vill deal ~·lith it. I !~. C:.~E .~F.~: That is rubbish. HR.

NEA..."qY : It is not rubbish. ~hat is what the Hinister of Finance and the Minister of Transportation told the House today. So, nr. ,Speaker, what we have seen in the last two or three years in this Province, we have seen a continuous erosion of the authorit y and the powers of this House and the powers of the Cabinet. ~he authority has now been put out into the board rooms of various government buildings scattered throughout the city. Mr.

Speaker, ~ve have seen the Sa.I!Ie thing happen with the authority of the Cabinet. ~hey are chipping away at the po'I'Ter of the House and the po1t1er of the Cabinet, they are gradually breaking down the system; ultimately they will destroy the system completely and then we will have a real, true dictatorship in this Province. t•!e are getting closer 9242

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4.l3 3 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: to that. With every bill they bring into the House, Mr. Speaker, we are getting closer to a real dictatorship in this Province. At least when appointments are being made by the Cabinet people have a fighting chance that somebody around that table, one out of the eighteen, or a couple out of the eighteen may have sense enough and their conscience may not allow them to go along with the blatant political appointments that we have seen in this Province in the last couple or three years. But the way they are going to do it now, under this bill, !tr.

Speaker, they are going to,first of all,speed up the process for making political appointments and they are going to delegate the authority,in a good many cases,to the minister. They are going to give the minister a free hand to make his own appointments. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I said the other day, can you imagine this House giving the authority to the likes of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) to let contracts, enter into agre~ments and make appointments ·? 'Ihe Minister of Public Works sent over a ~~inisterial Statement ten days ago to my colleague, the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock), and then put it in his drawer and forgot about it for a week to ten days. He did not have the courage to get up 9243

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4134 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: and make the statement. He could not get himself psyched up enough to make the statement. MR. CARTER: When you were there, 'Joey' did it all. Look at the job he made of it. MR. NEARY: gentleman again - MR. CALLAN: MP.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I can only ask the hon. MHAs announcing new Canada Works projects. The member for CarbonearCMr.Peach) out today announcing a Liberal make-work programme. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) was at it the other da y. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: And the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Collins) was at it. MR.

NEARY: They must have B shift on toda y . The member for Port de Grave is in his seat today for a change. They have the shift system going over there now, MR. CARTER: You have the shift system. MR. NEARY: This is B shift today ~re have here with us, Mr. Speaker. When they said "Admit stangers" today, the member for Port de Grave walked in the House. MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: And the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Osmond). If the weather was fine we would not have the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) here, Mr. Speaker. He would be up in the savoury patch.

Then you look across the way, the Minister of Social Services (_Mr. Hickey) now will be able to make appointments under this act, just to single out two rninist .ers over there. The hon. gentleman who has done the hatchet job on the expansion to the senior citizens horne in Gnader, he has been given a deadline of Wednesday to take the federal government up on their offer to expand that horne for over $1 million or they are going to lose it. MR. CALLAN: And get money for the other three as well. 9244

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4134 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of individual, the kind of minister that,if this House approves this bill, we will be putting authority to make appointments in the hands of a couple of ministers of the calibre that I just mentioned - ignorant incompetents. They should not have any No, they should be stripped of MR. CARTER: power at all. MR. NEARY: their power. The hon. gentleman got flung out of the Cabinet in the Moores' years for insulting one of the denominations in this Province, Mr. Speaker. MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: That is a lie. That is a lie.

Your Honour heard that statement. I ask that Your Honour direct the han. gentleman to withdraw his statement. He made it twice. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! I will check Hansard. I did not hear the statement that any han. member made. I will check Hansard and see what was in it, If there ,_·re un:>;Jarliarnentary · remarks 1they will be asked to be withdrawn. MR. NEARY: Well 1 could we have a recess for a few minutes while Your Honour researches Hansard? It is a very serious matter in this House, Mr. Speaker, to be called a liar. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I realize that it is a very serious offence. I will check Hansard and if that is the case the ruling ·will be made to withdraw it. The han. the Leader of the Opposition, continue. 8245

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4I34 NM- _3 ·- MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, we are very concerned about this bill for a couple of reasons. We are concerned about it because this is not the type of legislation that one would expect this House to be debating five or six days before Christmas Day. It is an indication of the government's priority. We do not feel that this is a number one priority in this Province at the present time, that there are other matters that affect the everyday lives of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians that rate a higher priority than delegating more power and more authority to ministers. Mr.

Speaker, we have the highest taxes in the whole nation. We have record unemployment. The economy is in a mess. Chaos in the fishing industry. Only the other day, I believe it was the day before yest~rday, the people of Burgeo demonstrated, 600 people turned out in a march trying to find out when their fish plant is going to open. .Down in Trepassey they are concerned, they want a meeting with the Premier to try to detemiDe if their plant.is going to open or if it is just going to be a seasonal operation. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): President of the Council. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

A point of order, the hon. the I know, he is going to tell me now, Mr. Speaker, that I am irrelevant. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is irrelevant, Mr. Speaker. What is more important to it is that what the hon. gentleman is saying is irrelevant to this bill,which is relating merely to the delegation of authority to ministers to make certain, what amounts to really, routine appointments, such as notaries public, commissioners of oaths, 9246

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4135 ~.J - 1 MR. MARSHALL: very im9ortant both, but members of the Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, ~~d the Children's Hos~ital. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): To that point of order, I do rule that there is a point of order and I will remind the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (~1r. Neary) of our rule of relevancy. Opposition. r1R. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, ~.,e w·ould be very happy to support this bill if the administration there opposite would put a clause in this bill stating categorically that any appointments that are made by ministers will be made on an impartial basis,along non-~~sAn ~olitic~l lines,with consultation wi~~ the members in the districts that the appointments are being made. Now, if the hon. gentleman ~'lould amend this legislation to say that no politics will be involved in these appointments, Mr. Speaker, he ~'lould get our support.

But this piece of legislation is wide 09en for ministers to misuse their authority and to abuse their authority, Hr. Speaker. We have seen more political appointments in recent years than in our whole history. r.ffi. WARREN: For example, the ~gg Harketing Board. MR. NEARY: All you have to do is look at the Egg !1arketing Board, look at the Produce ~arketing Board, look at the official handshaker, a former member of this House, a defeated Tory candidate,and vou could go on and on, Hr. Speaker. ~lhen it comes to political a':':c->Oint!'lents, a!'l I SRic. so often before, thi.'l crm• 7d. ~·rrote the book.

They can even out~o the Duplessis years in the Province of Quebec,and that is saying so~ething. 9247

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4135 ~1J - 2 MR. NEARY: t-7acky Bennett would look like a child, a baby compared to this han. crowd. Now they want to speed up the process. Well, ~rr. Speaker, we say . no way. \'!e do not care if it is five or six days before Christmas Day 1 ':Te have a point to make and we are going to make it. They can invoke the shift system over there if they like; we have our shift system on today,too, ~1r. Speaker. The fact of the matter is, that if we have something to say about legislation we are-: going to say it. Hr.

Speaker, ~.,e ~¥auld like to see this bill amended to include a clause that any appointments that are made will be made on an impartial basis, they will not be made along partisan political lines,that any citizen of this Province could be appointed to any one of these boards mentioned in this bill. DR. COLLINS: affiliation? MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: Ho one '·"i th any political No, he did not say that. No. That you would not have to be affiliated with the Tory party, you would not have to be carrying your Tory membership card around in your wallet, Mr. Speaker.

That you would not have to show the Tory blue, you would not have to be a part of the blue machine in this Province to get yourself appointed to a board or a commission. Mr. Speaker, that is what we would like to see in this bill, if the han. gentleman is prepared to amend it. f1R. CA..."R.TER: f-1R. NEARY: :·T.-,.at if 0.irt? are appointed? Why not? Why would the han. gentleman not put that into the bill? MR. CJL"R.TER: T·-TJ1<' .t, f'l.irtv :r.i!:lerals? HR. NARP.EN: Yes, if necessary. MR. NEA..."R.Y : A political consideration is 9248

Dece .mber 19 , 1983 Tape No. 4135 l•!J - 3 HR. W.....A..~Y: not one of the qualifications necessary, ~~at you do not have to belong to the Tory party i~ order to get appointed to one of these commissions, that the y be left open fo r any citizen of this Province, what is wrong with that, ~.r. Speaker? Tories, Liberals , :-JDP, Rhinoceros oartv - and if ,,,e did have a rhinoceros party in this :Orovince , I Rrl sure thi'lt is •.·•hiit t.he hon . ~entlenan would ~elon ~ to. ~. Speaker, I think that is a fair request . N0 \-1, why \o~ou ld the hon. qentla"'1en not get up now, ~rr.

Speaker, if they are such an administr at ion of integrity and honesty ,and they sit over there day in and day out with str aiq!lt f.?.. ces and tell us they are# 9249

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4136 SD - 1 MR. NE..l\.RY: even though we are the only Province in Canada who has an official handshaker,and we nave a protocol officer. What else do l'ie have? And we have, Mr. Speaker, a gentleman - I wrote his title do~vn here the other day for the ~inister of Education (Hs. Verge), I must have left it down in my office - a supervisor in the Department of Education, the chief Tory Party organizer. A couple of weeks ago a supervisor of the Department of Education - DR. COLLDTS : He is not the chief Tory Part' (_ o~qanizer. MR.

NE..l\.RY: He is the chief Tory Party organizer he was sent to Terra Nova. SOME HON. HE .!•1BE~S'! Oh, oh. HR. NEARY: The chief Tory Party organizer who is a supervisor in the Department of Education. HR. YOUNG: He did a wonderful job. He l'ion every polling booth but two, 'tr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: rtr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman does not understand what it is we are talking about here, he does not understand it. You know, that is the kind of minister they want to give more authority to and more power to, Mr. Speaker. Just imagine!

Is it not frightening when you r listen to what comes · from the hon. gentleman •·s lips? T,Then you look at the hon. gentleman's behaviour and his attitude, Mr. Speaker, would it not frighten you? Is it not frightening~ Mr. Speaker, it is frightening,indeed,just to look across at the hon. gentleman, the freeloader, Look at him. Just look at him! They are going to give that hon. gentleman nmoT auL~ority to make appoin~~ents, to enter into agreements and to sign contracts, Mr. Speaker. Is that not frightening, Mr. Speaker? That is why we are so concerned about this- :bi ·ll, Mr.

Speaker, and that is- why · we are recommending to the administration,rather than ram this bill through the House now:, at the last minute, why do they not agree, Mr •. Speaker, to a simple amendment and put in this bill that all of the.se 9250

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4136 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: appointments will not be made along partisan political lines? Why would the hon. gentlemen not agree to that? ~1._-q. HOUSE: ~·1hat a measure to put in a bill. MR. NEARY: Why not? I mean, if you are an administration of honesty ?nd integrity, why would you not put it in? Or are you just trying to fool the people, dupe the people of this Province, that your pious words are just from the lips out? SOME HON. ME~-lBERS : Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: Mr, Speaker, I am enjoying the debate going back and forth across the floor here.

I could write a very simple amendment '-F ~-- the administration there opposite would accept it, r~r.Speaker, but I am not goino to waste my time writing out an amendment and then just have it thrown back at us. ~m. HOW'lE: T'l'r i te out the amendment nmo1. ''7r i te out the amendment. MR. NEARY: Yes, sure~ I still have to talk while I am writing, so it is very difficult,and then listen to the han. gentlema.n. I \V:ould have to do three thinqs at once. 1-1r, Speaker, let me see if I can just giye it orally. would like to move the following amendment to this bill, Mr.

Speaker, s.econded by the member for Torngat Mountains U1r, Warreni: 'Whereas any appointments made under the aut'h.,.,rit:" of Bill No. 62 will be made along non-partisan political lines, that you will not have to be a member of a specific political party in this . Province to qualify to be appointed to one of these boards or commissions; and be it further amended, r-tr. Speaker, that there be prior consultation with the members of various districts where the appointments · 9251

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4136 SD - 3 M..~. NE~..RY : are being made '. Now, Mr. Speaker, these amendments are clear enough, simple enough, even,for the Minister of Health (Mr . House) to understand . I know you can lead a horse to water But you canhot make him drink, Mr . Speaker, but even the Minister of Health should understand these amendments. !~ . HOUSE: The Minister of Health understands you are not qovernment and you never will be . . MR . NEARY: "f.r . $)peqker, He are merr.bers of t!le House cf Assembly and \.re have riqhts and privile ges . 92 52

December 19, 1983 Tape 4137 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: and we have certain things we can do under the rules of this House. I just moved two amendments to this bill, Mr. Speaker, and I would like for Your Honour to rule whether or not my amendments are in order before I proceed to support my amendments. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! With the permission of the House, I will adjourn for one minute to check the ruling on the amendments put forth by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. RECESS MR.

SPEAKER: To the point which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition made in moving an amendment to Bill No. 62, I refer him to Standing Order 60, which reads: "Every public Bill shall be read twice in the House before committal or -amendment." I would suggest to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that if he wishes to amend this act, it would be more appropriately done in Committee of the Whole. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will put the administration there opposite on notice then, that when we go into Committee of the tvhole we will be moving - AN HON. MEMBER: You ~Jill sea results then. MR. NEARY: Yes, I know what the result will be - forty-five against seven. Mr. Speaker, can you imagine two hockey teams out on the ice, forty-five on one team and seven on the other team? 9253

December 19, 1983 Tape 4137 EC ~ 2 MR. HOUSE: We have a gre.it team. Not only that, there are seven of them opposite and their leader is totally incompetent because he does not even know that he does not govern, it is the government that governs . 11R. YOUNG: MR. NEARY: And another thing (inaudible). Y.r. Speaker, what the han. gentleman does not know is that it is not the government that makes laws, it is this House that makes laws. That is what the han. gentleman does not understand. We are in the process of making a law. MR. HOUSE: T-'Jhere is your Hm~se Leader (Hr.

Hodder) -.;.~ho ~.,as supposed to be here on Monday? MR. NEARY: No, we are on the sh~ft system the same as the administration. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, there is no point in belabouring the matter any further. When we get the opportunity in Committee of the Whole, we will be making an amendment to this bill to try to eliminate the politics that the administration will play in making these appointments. We will try to eliminate that the best way we can. I know they can outvote US< we are outnumbered, I realize that, Mr.

Speaker, but somebody there opposite may get sense enough to realize what is happening here, that authority and power are being delegated to a crowd of ignorant incompetents like the Minister of Health (Mr. House), and the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young), and the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey). MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: And the Hinister of 1'ransportation (~1r. Da~'e) • No, one thing about the han. gentleman is he is not an ignorant incompetent.

Now, he may not understand the system and he may be arrogant and he may be childish and silly but I do not think he is an ignorant incompetent, Mr. Speaker. The only thing the hon. gentleman does that is wrong is that he refuses 9254

December 1~, 1983 Tape 4138 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: the han. gentleman refuses to give information to this House, and the han. gentleman will regret the day , he will regret the day that he adopted that attitude, Mr. Speaker. · MR. DAT ,7E: Tell him about the Overpass in Glovertown. MR. NEARY: No, I could tell the han. gentleman a few things about his department, but I will not today because we are on a bill delegating authority to ministers and I would be out of order and the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) would be the first to spring to his feet. So, Mr.

Speaker,we are not going to belabour this matter any longer unless my colleague for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) who says, no, he does not have anything to add to what has already been said. But we are very concerned about the way that this administration is downgrading the House of Assembly and the Cabinet, taking the authority away from the House and away from the Cabinet. HR. CA:::<TER: Does the bon. gentleman watch Channel 13? MR. NEARY: I watch The Mu pp et t Show and I see it every day here in this House. AN HON.MEMBER: (Inaudible) ap9ointment you have to be a P.C. MR.

NEARY : You have to be a P.C. that is the trouble. If you are not a Tory, if you are not a bl ue blood in this Province you do not have a chance MR. BAIRD: If you are not a Tory you are a duke. MR. CARTER: You do have a chance if you are strong. MR. NEARY: - to get yourself appointed to anything, or even get a job in the public service. Even if you 92:35

December 19, 1983 Tape 4138 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: are a gardener down around Government House you have to be a red roaring Tory from Harbour Grace district,or you cannot get a job in the greenhouse. MR. BAIRD: You should be able to get a job in the greenhouse,you are green enough. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. members over there are interrupting again and breaking the rules of the House right, left, and centre. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, we are not going to belabour this bill any longer.

We are just going to put the government under notice that we will move an amendment at the appropriate time and we hope that the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) will in all conscience vote for our amendment, to remove the politics from these appointments. That is all we are asking. And if the han. gentleman will do that, then we will vote for the bill. But if the han. gentleman does not do it 1 then we have no choice , Mr. Speaker, but to vote against this bill. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : If the han. President of the Council speaks now he will close the debate. The han. President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have nothing of any great length to say. I mean,what the han. gentleman has been talking about for the past half hour and what he talked about on Friday 1 and other members on the opposite side, you know, just does not warrant reply.

I just want to emphasize once again that this is a bill with respect to certain powers of appointment, to enable ministers to make appointments which are in their nature ~outine,such as an appointment of a notary public, such as the appointment of a Commissioner of Oaths, etc., so that the Cabinet's time can be occupied with matters of more substance than just minor appointments, although they are more important,but minor in a sense of minor appointments of certain officials to carry out certain official functions. So that is all it is. There q 'Jr., !='!u ·-· L '-•

December 19, 1983 Tape 4138 PK - 3 MR. MARSHALL: is nothing sinister behind it. The hen. gentlemen know there is nothing sinister behind it. The y keep talking about the type of legislation that is brought in,and there is nothing that has been brought before this legislative portion of the sitting of the House that is of any importance, yet they managed to debate it for half an hour, three-quarters of an hour , two hours and three hours. But anyway, Mr.

Speaker, that is the purpose of the bill, and the sum total of the remarks of all of the Opposition with respect to it does not \'larrant an y further reply than that. I move second reading. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting Certain Powers Of Appointment", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, ·with leave of the House I would like to make a response to certain questions that were raised by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) during Question Period this afternoon. MR. SP EAKER : Council have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR •. SPEAKER: ~m. MARSHALL: Does the hen. President of the Agreed. Agreed. Mr. Speaker, on December 7, 1983, rented accommodation occupied by the Licencing Division of The Department of Justice was forcibly entered into and a quantity of weapons stolen. These weapons consisted of eight hand guns, one ·starting pistol, one pellet gun, and one sawed-o~f. riffle ·. All of the weapons were forfeited to the Crown by court order. As well 9257

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4139 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: a small amount of cash was also stolen. The guns tvere held in a storage room prepared by the Department of Public Works as a security storage area. A solid-core,triple-lock door was smashed in order to gain entry to the storage area. As a result of the break-in,an alternative location was obtained then to store the remaining weapons. Weapons seized or forfeited bo the Crown are destroyed on a regular basis so that the numbers held are limited.

There was a subsequent break-in on December 17th, after the weapons had been removed,when a small amount of petty cash was stolen but no weapons were stored in that location then and none, of course, obviously were stolen. A police investigation is continuing into both break-ins, and none of the weapons have been recovered as of today's date, as of this afternoon. I think that answers in substance the questions posed by the han. gentleman. He wanted to know whether there were only hand guns.

The statment responds to that; there was a starting pistol, a pellet gun and a sawed-off shot gun included with the eight hand guns. The security there was the solid-core, triple-lock door that had been provided there. There were, in fact ,two break-ins 1 but after the first break-in,of course, any remaining ,weapons that had been there had been removed. MR.NEARY: You mean they waited until the second time before they removed them? MR.MARSHALL: No, they were removed after the first break-in. So there were no guns there when it was broken in on the week-end. The matter is under investigation so I think, Mr.

Speaker, that comprehensively responds to the hon. gentleman's question. 9258

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4139 ah-2 Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Retail Sales Tax Act, 1978." (Bill No. 87) MR.SPEAKER (Ayl ward: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, for some time, for several years,as a matter of fact,the Retail Sales Tax Act has been under review. Circumstances change and so on, and the Act needed updating and that has been a matter of ongoing review as I mentioned .

Hon . members also understand that since the PAC in its present form, the Public Accounts Committee, was put in place 1 they have also paid a considerable amount of attention to the Retail Sales Tax Act and violations thereto. In the last year or so .the recession itself has accentuated the problems that have arisen in regard to the Retail Sales Tax Act and the revenues the Province gets from retail sales. So for all those reasons we have brought in amendments to this hon. House. Hon. members will recall that about a year ago we brought in a substantial number of amendments which strengthened the Act.

They included closing certain loopholes in regard to licenses being available to individuals who had already lost them once,or to their agents. Also 1 it was made an offence to use a license that had been cancelled,and there was also an increase in fines. Those were,perhaps 1 some of the larger things that were done at that time. Now ,this, Mr. Speaker, is, shall we say, the second edition of those amendments. Some of them have been mentioned a number of times in this hon. House 1 and by various members of the House in public,and by members of the Public Accounts Committee. I will just run through them briefl y.

The clause was 9259

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4140 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: refers to an amendment making it clear that promotional material,such as catalogues and so on, is _exempt from retail sales tax. This was required because the question had arisen because of a court decis .ion in New Brunswick some time ago. Now the court decision related to the retail sales tax in New Brunswick,and this first clause just clarifies that there is no doubt that such promotional material in this Province is exempt.

Associated with that is clause (5) , which points out that if a noninal fee, a· very snall fee is exacted for such.promotional material,that does not interfere with the 'exenption under the act. Clause (2) clarifies the responsiblity of a contractor to pay retail sales tax. At the present time, a contractor if he is dealing in tangible personal property,he might be required to collect tax under one type of contract and he might not be required to collect tax under another type of contract.

In other words,he might be considered to be a . consumer in one instance and not a consumer in the other instance, and this clause just cl~rifies that and indicates that in all such contracts, no matter what exact form the contract is in, the contractor is considered the consumer. This obviously means that he will build into his price to the householder, or whoever he is doing the work for, he will build into his contract price the cost of the retail sales tax, but he .himself is responsible for rendering that tax to the Province.

The third clause allows a minister to make an estimate o_f the tax owing on stocks that az:e going to be disposed of in a bulk sale. In other words,if a business is being transferred holus-bolus to a ne, ... owner, Up to this time an audit had to be done and a certificate given before it could be concluded and that often took a considerable period of time~ and it often interferred with the sale; it was a hardship on both C'JGnu •. t ... ,_,

December 19, 1983 Tape no. 4140 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: the person who was selling the business and the new owner. In this particular instance the minister, is empowered to make an estimate without going through the full-fledged formal audit and a certificate can be raised then if that estimate is satisfied by either the seller or the new owner . In other vmrds, that estirrlate constitutes the tax owing, and a certificate can be given to allow the sale to go ahead. Number four is just a housekeeping thing. At one point there >-ras an error in the act in regard to whether it was 11 per cent or 12 per cent; i_t ~;-ras just in one part of the act and this is now corrected. I think it was in

section 19 of the act. That is corrected to indicate the proper percentarre, ~trhich is 12 ner cent. Clauses 6 and 9 are related and they -- ·- · . just remove some superfluous words from the act, again a house- keeping thing. Clause 7 will give the inspectors the authority to seek a search warrant in order to obtain or to look at certain financial records that are deemed necessary in doing an audit in regard to retail sal~s tax owing by a company or an ·individual.

It is permission to look for a search warrant and that will now allow those necessary documents to be inspected, but those documents are not to be copied. That is put in there to avoid the interference with legitimate, corporate, or private privacy and confidentiality. Clause 8 clarifies, and that is the word, it just clarifies that the Crown ranks ahead of a land- lord in the matter of retail sales tax owing. I m~ght point out in this regard, Mr. Speaker, that where a business is being conducted from rented premises,under our regulations we require the vendor to be bonded. 9261

December 19, 1983 Tape No. ·4141 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: We do not require this often,or not for long periods of time an~va~ if the business is being conducted out of m ·med premises, because then there are tixed assets there that are available in case of arrears on retail sales tax. But where the business is operated out of rented premises,we require bonding and this particular clause indicates that the Cro~m does rank ahead of the landlord in situations like that, if there is rent owing as well as retail sa.les tax owing. Clause 10 is again not a very consequential one.

It puts the period for appeals against a penalty at thirty days and it just lines it up with the period of thirty days as is allowed for appeals against audit assessments. So it just makes one part of the act consistent with another part. Clause 11 will permit the use in court of computer printouts if these are certified as being correct by the Comptroller General.

Nowadays, as I am sure hon. members knowr computer printouts are becoming more and more the form in which businesses keep their accounts .• Thi·s will, for the fi~st time, authorize the courts to accept · computer printouts as evidence in court proceedings but, as I sayf subject to their certification as being correct, by t;he Comptroller General. Clause 12 is not a very consequential one either. It substitutes the ~vord 1 person 1 for ~s -eller 1 •. An amendment that was brought in last Fall inadvertently referred to in one place a seller and,therefore, narrowed down the effect of that amendment.

This will indicate that any person in that particular circumstance,whether he is a seller or not as defined in the act, if he owes retail sales · tax or his registration is subject to cancellation, it mav be cance .lled under the act. 8262

December 19, 1983 Tape No. ·4141 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: Clause 13: This ,.,ill provide that officers, directors and agents of a limited liability company may be li~le for the payment of tax owing in special circumstances. Now, the circumstances will be that firstly, the company has to be convicted of being in arre~rs under the act, in other words, hav~ committed an offense under the act .

Secondl y,the director, agent,or officer will have to have knowledge of that offense and will have partaken in it, not just have kno,.,ledge and not just, shall '"e say, incidently be a director of a company, but he will have had to have participated in the offense and have been convicted of such. partic ip ati:on by the courts.

And in those circumstances, if the tax remains unpaid ,such an officer or director or whatever can become liable under the act. r thlnk hon. me!" .hers probably know that there have been some concerns raised about that by the Board of Trade and by the Institute of Chartered Accountants. 9263

December 19, 1983 Ta pe No. 4142 MJ - l DR. COLLINS: He met with them, we discussed their concerns with them, they were more ~·ror<'!i!l':' concerns t~an a:l'rthin'! elr>e, a!lfl. in Committee we will be bringing in an amendment that will allay their concerns. They do not interfere- ·essentially ~.rhat the a:r"'.ene'_T"\ent ~·ras tn no, "l.!loi I just lai-1 out cvl"lat t'"le a~en~ .ent is to do, it will be to1orded and ~ave certain provisos in there which meet the legitimate concerns raised by the groups I mentioned.

Clause 14 will give the pm;rer to the minister to apply for an injunction ordering a person to cease using a cancelled registration certificate, ~Y'hich is now a practice that is not unkno~qn in this Province. r.re coulfl . ca!lcel the licence, we could create it as an offense,as we did last Fall, ··b ut still we did not have ability to close up the shop ·of a person who persisted. This will now give us the right to apply to a court for an injunction in those circumstances. Mr.

Speaker, I think those "!:1:"1';' sufficient words of explanation at this time,and if questions do arise I toJ"ill answer them to the best of my ability. But I would move at this point the second reading of the bill. MR. !'lEA_~Y: ~r. Speaker. l1R. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order,please! Before recognizing the hon . the Leader of the Op~osition, I would like to rule on this point of order raised by the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) on Friday. On checking with Hansar~ I see it was 'ignorant incompetent' and our m·m Standing Order No. 52 refers to the use of off.ensive language.

I certainly do not think that these toTords were particularly elegant,shall we say,but there is no reference in Beauchesne to these particular terms as being out of order and in the 9264

December 19, 1983 Tape :1-TO. 4142 HJ - 2 MR. SPEA.T<ER (MCNichoals) : circumstances I ~ust rule that it was not unparliamentary. rm. NEARY: That was a good ruling, ~1r. Speaker, and especially if t!1e 'tTordg are tn;e. MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. the Leader of the Thank you, Hr. Speaker. Before I speak on this bill I would like to welcome a former colleague of mine ~.,ho is sitting in the Speaker's gallery, the former ~ember for the district of St. Georges. I am qlad to see that he still has ~he interest in the affairs of state and in the peoples' House to come and to hear what we are debating..

I want to say to the hon. gentleman that the faces may change but the issues are still the same. I .believe ~>r'1en the hon. <:entle,.,_a::1 was here we t.,ere talking about the sales taxes. That was a big problem ,.,hen the hon. gentleman was here. We pointed out to the administration the sloppy way that they were handling the collection of the sales tax. The former member from St. George's "to7ill remember me saying at that time that this money, this retail sales tax, is ~oney that is collected from the consQ~er in trust by the person that collects it.

It is not his or her money, that money does not belong to that company, that money is entrusted to a company or a business or an individual on behalf of the taxpayer and they have no right, !.·!r . . c:nei'tker. at all to that money. r~. 3u":'':':': l'le know that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman says, 'Ne know that. ' Well, maybe the han. gentleman should be Minister of Finance, because the !1inister of Finance (Dr. Collins) 9265

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4142 )!J - 3 MR. NEA?.Y: does not knot•7 it, !:>ecause he has allowed $14 million to accumulate in taxes in arrears, retail sales taxes in arrears . DR . COLLINS: ~ilho mves rnost of that? MR . NEA..~Y: ~·tho owes most of it, Mr . Speaker? I would say most of it is owed by people \·tho have ma ni pul ated the syste'"' , 926 6

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4-143 IB-1 MR. NEARY: companies that have qone _into ban}c _ruptcy, Mr. f>peaker. MR. SH1t-1S: Who is the largest single one? MR. NEARY: The largest single one, the retail sales tax I do not know who it is. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that this money is held in trust by those who collect it, and they have no right to monkey around with that money. The money that is taken from the consumer who purchases goods and supplies and services, should .be put into a fund and then sent to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), Mr. Speaker.

And to do anything else with that money,in my opinion,is theft, it is stealing. I am sure that every member of this House could give example after example of cases that are known to them where the Retail Sales Tax Act has been gotten around by slippery individuals who will put one company into receivership or into bankruptcy and then form another c,ompany and do the same thing, owe large amounts of money they collected from the general public in retail sales tax and then put that company into bankruptcy and then go on to another company, and then, Mr.

Speaker, be rewarded for getting around the Retail Sales Tax Act, be rewarded then by being appointed Parliamentary or special assistants to ministers. That is t~e~r reward. MR.CARTER: What you are saying is not correct. MR. NEARY: What I am saying is correct. There is one gentleman down in La~ador who has done i~ at .least three, if not four times, to our knowledge. MR.PEACH: Now, do not go getting personal. 9267

December 19, 1983 Tape No. -4143 IB-2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing personal about the taxpayer dollars. If the Premier (Mr. Peckford) takes an apartment rent free compliments of the taxpayers,that is not personal. That is taxpayer money. MR. YOUNG: Tell us about the beer parlour you had a partnership in. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, thank God that is something I have never been involved in. I have not been involved in any business since I became a member of this House,and I have no intention,and no honourable gentleman there opposite can say otherwise. Mr.

Speaker, one gentleman that we know of in Labrador,I believe .has gone through that process three or four times; not in Southern Labrador,! might say. And I am glad to see so many of my dear friends here from Southern Labrador toda~, the Straits. Mr. Speaker, I welcome them to the gallery. I trust they will enjoy the House. I am not sure if they will enjoy the debate that is currently going on. And, Mr .. Speaker, there are others here on the Island of Newfoundland, many, many, many other examples.

I personally do not believe that a member should be allowed to sit in this House if he is indebted to the Department of Finance .. i If he stole retail sales tax he should not be allowed to sit in this House. I think that should be one of the stipulations of the act. I am not referring to anybody in particular, but I feel so strongly about these matters that I believe that·anybody who has stolen the retail sales tax and used it for his own personal advantage, Mr. Speaker, should not be . allowed to sit in this House. MR. WARREN: Well,you cannot sit on a town council if you owe taxes. 8268

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4143 IB-3 MR. NEARY: You cannot sit on a town council if you owe taxes to the municipality . You are not allowed to run for office unless you can produce vour certificate to the town . MR.DAWE: MR. NEARY: MR.DA WE: criminal records? MR. NEA~ ¥ :_ MR.DA WE: criminal records? MR. CARTER: of order. That is a red herring. What is a red herring? How about people with I beg your pardon? How about people with Mr. Speaker, on a point MR. SPEAKER (DR. MCNICHOLA S): A point of order, the hon. member for St •. John 's North. MR. CARTER: This is rubbish that we are listening to at the present time.

The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is suggesting by innuendo, very sly innuendo, that there may be members in this han. House who owe the government money, and that just is not true. It is not tDue at this time, I do not suppose it was ever true. It is certainly not true now. It is absolute rubbish. It is pernicious rubbish and the han. gentleman should be taken out and flogged . MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order I must rule that there is no point of order. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. How does the han. gentleman know that that is not true? Mr. Speaker, let me say this to the han. 9269

December 19, 1983 Tape 4144 · EC - 1 MR. NEARY: gentleman, that I feel so strongly about this matter of the retail sales tax, money entrusted to people and companies and businesses on behalf of the taxpayers and then stolen, because that is what it is, it is theft, Mr. Speaker, no question about that, and used for personal gain by those who collected it - The hon. gentleman talks about flogging. I feel so strongly about these matters that anybody in that category should not be allowed to take his seat in this hon. House. MR. CARTER: There is nobody in that category. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I do not knm.; for sure, the hon. gentleman does not know for sure, but I would say - the hon. gentleman may be right, maybe there is nobody currently inside the rail in that category. I'!R. DINN: How do you know that? MR. NEARY: I do not know. l~P.. 1'111.RREN: T·7ell, the !'1ember [or St. John's No_rth CMr. Carterl says he knm.;s. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, sometimes it is not · for the want of a tongue that a horse does not talk. And, you know, Mr. Speaker, to add insult to injury, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) and the administration there opposite will not give the Auditor General access to the records. That is a nice how-do-you-do. The Auditor General, a servant of this House, is not allowed access to the records by the administration there opposite. That has to be a first in Canadian history, Mr~ Speaker, when the Auditor General, who is responsible for auditing the records of this administration, cannot get access to the records of the retail sales tax in the Department of Finance. Page 44 of the Auditor General's report - no, not ~age 44 1 excuse me, but anyway, it does not make 9270

Dec~e~ 19, 1983 Tape 4144 . EC - 2 MR. NEARY: any difference, it is in here. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, how long does he have to knock sorrething in order to su~~ort it? MR. NEARY: I ~;ill have as long as I want. It is none of the han. gentleman's business. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, it is in there. Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General is complaining; one of the big points that he is making in his annual report is that he does not have access to records of the retail sales tax unless authorized by the minister. And ~p to now, the minister has refused to allow the Auditor General to audit the accounts. I make no wonder, Mr.

S~eaker, from the horror stories that we hear about those who owe retail sales tax and the manipulating that has gone on, Mr. Speaker, a blind eye turneq on a good many occasions- because of the political involvement of individuals. ·MR. CARTER: That is not true. MR. NEAR~ That is true. Now, .Mr. Speake.r, the .Auditor General had an independent legal opinion done on this matter.

He asked for an independent legal opinion, and the independent legal opinion said that the Auditor General should have unrestricted access to these files, that the Auditox General should be able to examine these files and accounts, ,.,. ,..,. -r 1 - ' r ...,;{..,!

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4145 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a pretty, pretty serious matter indeed, a very serious matter. Mr. Speaker, let me ask a question. Hhy would the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and why would the administration there opposite refuse to allow the Auditor General to look at these records and to examine these funds? Why would they not allow ehem to do that, Mr. Speaker? Can anybody over there give me a justifiable reason? MR. WARREN: is going on. MR. NEARY: They do not want to uncover what Can the member for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) justify that kind of arbitrary decision on the part of the administration that he supports? MR. CARTER: Sit down.I will get up then. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman will have his chance to get up. But can the hon. gentleman tell me now, across the House,why the administration will not allow the Auditor General access to these records? Is there any reason why they \~uld not? Mr. Speaker, I would submit that it might be a~source of embarrassment for the administration, and that is why they will not let the Auditor General have access to these records. files, Mr. Speaker. Many a scandal is buried in these Mr.

Speaker, we hope that in the not too distant future, although that is not one of the amendments we are considering here,but it should be one of the ~ts, that if the Auditor General wants access to these files perhaps we should amend the act quickly to give the Auditor General access to the files. He is the only man we can depend on to see that the records are kept straight. He is the watchdog of the public treasury. Did anybody ever think in their '!ildest imagination 9272

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4145 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: that we would have such a dictatorial administration in this Province that they would not let the Auditor General look at the files of those who are in arrears on the retail sales tax? Why, Mr. Speaker, I think the names should be published, not only should the Auditor General have access. Look here is what the Auditor General said on page 40, 'During the year, I requested and received an independent legal opinion which concluded that,.

"The Financial Administration Act, 1973, gives the Auditor General the right to unrestricted examination of files and accounts whether they be on paper or electronically stored'! ' "In an opinion,. dated 1 November 1982, a solicitor of the Department of Justice stated that, 'he (the Auditor General) is not entitled to any access (to returns) due to subsections (1) and (2) of

section 28 of The Retail Sales Tax Act." And an independent legal opinion said that he was. The Auditor General says, ,. :"!: ar . _2!:"esantly pursui:l<J this i>atter vlith o:':ficials of the Department of Finance. However, as Auditor General 1 I must strongly insist that I have unrestricted access to the Retail Sales Tax files if I am to carry out 9273

December 19, 1983 Tape 4146 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: my function under

Section 61 of The Financial AQ~inistration Act, 1973:' Now that is something that the han. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) should be proud of, that he is supporting an administration that is withholding records and books from the Auditor General. Mr. Speaker, we saw in the last couple of days in this House where a minister refused to table information in this House in connection with the Green Bay ferry fiasco, refused point blank to table information in this House. And that minister has no right to do that, Mr. Speaker,no right to do it.

The only reason they can get away with it is because they are as close now to a dictatorship as you can get. No wonder they are expanding the Newfoundland Constabularly all over the Province. They are going to have their own little army now . MR. WARREN: Whywas the han. member for St. John's North so upset, I wonder? MR. NEARY: That is a good question. Why was the member for St. John's North so upset when I was talking about people who have found ways and means to skirt around the retail sales tax, to manipulate the laws of this Province? MR. CARTER: I ".tlill not be long telling you why. MR.

NEARY: Well 1 the han. gentleman should tell us 'why, and should tell us why he is supporting an administration that will not let the Auditor General examine the records , Hr. Speaker, I would say that hidden in the vaults in this building are some pretty horror stories in connection with the retail sales tax. And the han. gentlemen there opposite can go back two regimes if they want to,or they can go back to the ark for that matter, but it will not cover up for their own incompetence and 9274

December 19 , 1983 Tape 4.146 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: mismangement as far as this matter is concerned. It is a very serious matter. When I was Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee there was $14 million owing to the Province in retail sales tax, $14 million. And while that $14 million was Ol'l'ing to money that 111as collected on behalf of the people,they were closing down hospital bedsand cutting back services, ~r. Speaker. That is what they were doing. MR. CARTER: They were what? MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, they were closin~ down hospital beds, they were imposing hospital user fees on sick people. $1 million a yearthey recouped on that hospital user fee. $14 million could have paid fourteen years free hospital if the government had done its duty and collected the retail sales tax as they should have, $14 -million. r~. Speaker, I was Chairman of the Committee that brought - - 0 - ' in that report that led to some of these 'changes, some of these amendments that we see,that we have before us today. I was Chairman and the hon. gentleman,I believe,from St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) was Vice-Chairman, and some of these amendments are being brought about as a result of his work and mine and the other members of the Committee. MR. CARTER: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: You know it is a strange thing about the han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, he is a real Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Nhen 'he is sitting in his place in this House he is not fit to live with, but when he was on the Committee, when he was Vice-Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee he was very affable and very congenial, he was most co-operative. MR. WARREN: Who was that? Who was that? 9275

December 19, 1983 Tape 4'146 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: The member for St. John's North. And we got along very well and we did our job. I do not think we ever bad an unkind word,as far as the bus~ness of the Committee was concerned. As a matter of fact,the hon. gentleman was probably more vocal and more out-spoken and more out to get the M.oores Administration than the Liberals were on the Committee. 9276

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4147 ah-1 MR. NEARY: The hon . gentleman could not stand the Moores years and no doubt, I suppose, he thought it was a good opportunity to get revenge for getting flicked out off the Cabinet; the first time in Newfoundland's history the Minister of Education dropped, flung out, royal order of the boo~ out the door. But apart from that, Mr.Speaker, the hon. gentleman was very conscientious and as a result of our work - I believe the member for Harbour Main-Bell Island (Mr.

Doyle) was on that committee, but I did not find the hon. gentleman as co-operative,because the hon. gentleman felt that his job was to protect the Premier and the administration. MR.WARREN : He was looking for a Cabinet post. MR.NEARY: That is right. At the time, I believe, he was parliamentary secretary and he was trying to worm his way into the Cabinet and he was amply rewarded,no doubt,for his loyalty and dedication, on the cornrnittee,to the Premier.

And every time we brought up a controversial matter the hon. gentleman did not want us to debate it, no, no, that is . too controversial, leave that alone, we cannot do this. MR.WARREN: We have them on the Public Accounts Committee now. MR.NEARY: There 'were two or three of them on there. But not the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), I have to give him credit. He had the courage of his convictions and when we wanted to go full speed ahead on something - MR. WARREN: (inaudible) MR.NEARY: And you know, Mr. Speaker, sometimes in this House we have a very awesome task in 9 ')77 £.. I '

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4147 ah-2 MR.NEARY: trying to protect the taxpayers' dollars , in trying to protect the public treasury. Sometimes it can be a very awesome task indeed. Personalities enter into it. There is a possibility of fraud and scandal and influence peddling. You always have to watch out for that. And these are harsh words, Mr. Speaker, but,nevertheless,when you are trying to safeguard the public treasury you have to look at all these things,just the same as in that matter of the Green Bay ferry fiasco.

That is why we need a Commission of Enquiry to look at everything regarding that, to find out if there was any influence peddling, any fraud, any money paid out that should not have been paid out, any collusion. Mr. Speaker, that is why .we need a independent enquiry. The Auditor General has told us that $1.6 million was paid out that should not have been paid out. Mr. Speaker, what protection does the taxpayer have unless the administration agree ·to a public enquiry under the Public Enquiries Act?

And the ----- -- museum down at the Murray Premises,that was lying idle down there for three or four years, the taxpayers paying rent on it, doled out to one of the Premier's buddies, his provincial campaign co-ordinator, given his thirty pieces of silver. MR.HISCOCK: Right again. Right again. MR.NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, we are happy to see that at long last the administration have taken measures and brought amendments to the retail sales tax into this House to try to tighten up the law, tighten up the rules and regulations.

But, Mr.Speaker, all the rules and all the laws in this world will do no good unless the administration there opposite are prepared 9278

December 19,1983 Tape No. 4147 ah -3 t-m.NEARY: to enforce these rules and regulations ar.d therein lies the problem. They have been to slack and to lackadaisical with people as far as the retail sales tax is concerned, Mr. Speaker . They have let too many people get away with cheating on the retail sales tax, \\>ith robbery. I call it robbing . \'lha t else can you call it? 92 79

December 19, 1983 Ta!'e No. 4148 SD - 1 MR. NE.A.RY : If you collect money on behalf of the taxpayers and you use that money, you collect it in trust and you use it for your own personal gain and your own personal advantage, what can you call it o~her than theft or robbery? Mr. Speaker, so we are happy to see these amendments being brought in today to try to tighten up the act. I was going to give the members of the House another example in the Auditor General's Report, Mr.

Speaker, regarding taxes and how slack the administration have been in collecting $500,000 from a firm in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, page 32 of the Auditor General's Report,where the Auditor General says, 'The department did not include the amount of $500,000 in its accounts re.ceivable for the 1978-79 fiscal year or any year thereafter'. That could put a lot of power down in Pinsent Arm and keep a lot of hospital beds open. 'Contrary to the terms of the agreement,the Province did not receive its share (5n per cent) of a sale amounting to $180,000 by the company.

The company experienced financial difficulties and ceased operations in late 1980. Its inventory of wood was claimed by the bank as it had been pledged as security for the company's line of credit. In my opinion~ says the Auditor General, 'the Department of Development failed to safeguard the Province's. interests by entering into an agreement of sale that did not provide the department with any s·ecuri ty in the event of default by the company'. How often does that happen,. Mr. Speaker?

We are talking about another $500,000 down the drain; the wood now is down on the dock down in Happy Valley~ Goose Bay, $500,000 of it, that the Province, the taxpayers will be out because they allowed the bank to seize the wood, to take possession of the wood and the Province ended up the losers. You remember earlier this afternoon we were delegating more a.uthori ty to ministers, can you imagine giving them more 9280

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4148 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: authority and do'l'm in Labrador, a company that th.ey financed, they allowed the Bank of Nova Scotia to come in and take the wood. And the wood is still down there, $500,000 of taxpayers• money rotting- not rotting but we will never get it,because the Bank of Nova Scotia are the only ones who stand to gain in that transaction, Mr. Speaker. It is shameful, absolutely shameful! And they sit over there day in and day out with straight faces, pound on their desks like trained seals, like donkeys, wagging their tails,and when we raise these matters, Mr.

Speaker, they just laught and sneer and joke. MR. SPEAKER (RUsselll: If I could just interrupt the han. member for a minute 1 I would like to take this opportunity to welcome to the galleries today a delegation from Southern Labrador who are here to meet with officials in the federal Department of Transportation: Mrs. Shirley Letto from the Labrador South Chamber of Commerce, Mr. Wilfred Letto from the Labrador South Cha.mber of Commerce, Mr. Emile Cabot 1 President of the Labrador South Developme~t Association and ~rrs. Patricia Pike,the town manager from the community of Red Bay. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear. 9281

December 19, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Ne are going to sunport this Tape No ·. 414 9 The han. Leader So, Mr. Speaker, bill, no question about that. We are not concerned IB-1 about the feelings of the Board of Trade on this particular matter. We feel that individual members of companies, officers and directors and agents of companies should be responsible for payments of taxes if they are owing. We see nothing wrong with that, Mr. Speaker.

Look,I hate to have to keep repeating myself, but an awful lot of members of this House do not seem to understand­ what they do not understand is this, that the retail sales tax does not belong to these individuals or companies or agencies, it is collected from the consumers and put in trust for the people, the taxpayers of this Province. And nobody but nobody had dare touch it, have any right to use that money or touch it, it goes straight to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). Mr. Speaker, it is beyond me, I cannot comprehend how $14 million a year ago went uncollected by the administration.

And in the Auditor General's repor .t we were told that a lot of the money could not be collected, had to be written off because of bankruptcy, companies going into receiverShip, companies going bankrupt and then forming a new company, that one going bankrupt then forming a new one, that one goes bankrupt and on and on it goes, Mr. Speaker, like a merry-go-round. So, it is only right and proper,in my opinion, that the officers and directors and agents of these companies should be liable for ~he taxes owing.

I am sure that we could all, if we wanted to, point out to the House eEamples of where individuals have walked 9282

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4149 IB-2 MR. NEARY: away from cpmpanies scot-free, tax has been written off, and they set up another enterprise or build a big mansion somewhere or other, and they are allowed to walk away scot-free, Mr. Speaker. I mean, you know, it is hard to believe, is it not? It is hard to credit that it could happen, but it is happening, Mr. Speaker, and it is happening every day. You kno,v, if you are a taxpayer in a municipality and you want to run for a town council, you have to go to the town hall, pay your taxes, as the hon. member for Carbonear (Mr.

Peach) is aware, you pay your taxes and then you are given a certificate that your taxes are paid and then you can run for elected office. But, Mr. Speaker, do you realize that you can run for elected office, to become a member of the House of Assemblv - :m. Cl\:?.':'E:"t: You can be convicted of armed robbery and run for the House of .?-\ssernbly, Joe~r S:"J.all~mod sa,., to that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we make a law barring people from running for town councillors and mayors in municipalities,but we allow members to come into this House - .~1!:'t. DI~-:"T: How many mpre times are you going to say that? MR.

NEARY: I am going to say it pretty often,until it registers with hon. gentlemen there opposite - ~·!r. :=;!'eaker, allo1 'r !"!e:m..l::lers to sit in this House who have found ways to ~,·ho have manipulated the retail sales tax. MR. CARTER: Like Roger Simmons, only his is a federal case. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, how low and dirty and rotten can you get? The hon. gentleman should remember a few years ago his 8233

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4150 . IB-1 MR. NEARY: Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall), when he insulted a member's mother, paid the price· MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): Order, please! I must remind han. members that when a member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence. And the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) appears to be straying somewhat from the principle of this bill. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, so what I was saying there, you can sit in this House even though you have manipulated the retail sales tax laws of this Province. And I think that is something that we should all think about.

We should all think about it. So, we have no qualms Mr. Speaker, about officers and directors and agents of companies being liable for the payment. I noticed the han. gentlerna~ when he introduced second reading of the bill,appeared as if he were walking on eggshells, more or less apologizing and going on to spell it out that somebody would have to be - first of all he said that there company would have to be convicted in court. Why? Then he went on to make the point that the agent or officer would have to have knowledge that the offence was committed or he would have to participate in the offence.

Well, if you own a company .would you not be participating in the offence, Mr. Speaker? AN HON. MEMBER: If he did not know he has got nothing to do with it. MR. NEARY: If you were an agent or ... -·-- - ..... --.. an officer of the company would you not have knowledge? If you did not remit your sales tax every month to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) 1 would you not be a party 9284

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4150 IB-2 MR. NEARY: to it? Why is the hon. gentleman apologizing for that? There is no need of an apology for that. Hhack him into court. \'l'hy hesitate? Why is the hon. gentleman hesitating? What is he afraid of? I know,I heard what the Board of Trade said about this matter. · I heard their concerns. I do not happen to share their concerns in this particular instance because they should know, Mr. Speaker, the spokesman for the Board of Trade above everybody else . should know that that is not their money.

When you go in to buy a suit of clothes you pay your 12 per cent sales tax and the individual or the business that collects it has no right to use that money for anything else except to send a cheque to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to make it a part of the consolidated revenue of this Province. MR.CALLAN: snow clearing now. MR. NEARY: for snow clearing. One shift for snm.;cleaning now. That is right, one shift Now, Mr. Speaker, talking about the sales tax generally, generally,of course,I want to reiterate what I have said so often inside and outside of this hon.

House, that the increases in the sales tax in the last couple of years in this Province have been counter-pro .ductive, Instead of the minister increasing it to 12 per cent he should reduce it back to 8 per cent , probably, put it back to a per cent. I remember one day there a couple of weeks ago I was over at the Avalon Mall, Mr. Speaker, and the 9285

December 19, 1983 MR.CARTER : do you? Tape No . . 4150 IB-3 You go out in public, MR. NEARY: I saw the han. gentleman on a leash that night I believe. The businessmen in the Avalon Mall, Mr. Speaker, decided to have a sale and the sale that they had -. they put up signs all over the place and they advertised it in the paper, "Sale _;. Retail Sales Tax Does Not Apply For This Particular Night. No Retail Sales Tax Collected". 9286

December 19, 1983 Tape No. 4151 IB-1 MR. NEARY: Now, granted they had to pay the retail sales tax to the administration, to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). So this was the gimmick they used. Any purchases made on that night, no retail sales tax. And the place was blocked to the doors. You could not get through the throngs of people over at the Avalon Mall. The volume of business that was done that night was probably the highests for the whole year. Mr. Speaker, why would the administration then not learn a lesson from what happened that night over at the Avalon Mall?

Why would they not learn a lesson, take a leaf outofthe book of the business people down there, Mr. Speaker? It must be obvious to them by now they are not going to get the revenue they budgeted for. They are not going to get the revenue by increasing the retail sales tax to 12 per cent? Why do they not cut it back for a period, say of three months? Try it out, cut it back to 8 per cent for three months and let us see what happens. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that you would see consumer purchasing in this Province take off like you have never seen it happen before: Motor cars, television sets, washing machines, essential household items, furniture, the government would make it up in volume,would they not? Mr. Speaker, they are not getting it now. The hon. gentleman must have read a teacup when he brought in his estimates for the retail sales tax,or a gypsy read his palm or rubbed his forehead and said, 'You are goi~g to collect this muc~ money in ratail sales tax and you are only a~out $50 millicn or $70 m~llion cut'.

HR. ~·lARREN: He went down to the Regatta last year to the fortune teller. 9287

Decemb