LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 13 May, 1985. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The committee, please come to order. Just before we broke up, a point of order was raised when the Member for Pembina interrupted the Member for lnkster. Under our Rules when a member is speaking, no member shall Interrupt except to raise a point of order. Differences of opinion are not a point of order. A dispute as to the existence or non-existence of factual information is not a point of order either.

Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceedings of the House in the Appendix, Page 65, defines a point of order as ". . . questions raised with a view to calling attention to any departure from the Standing Order or customary modes of proceeding in debates . . . "In other words, a point of order relates to any deviation from the Rules of Procedure. As I have stated, a matter of difference of opinion or a dispute as to the existence of fact does not constitute a point of order, so I rule. Mr. Minister. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, thank you.

The Member for Sturgeon Creek was making a point earlier this afternoon with respect to the modest increase In tourism advertising on the province's behalf and we were discussing the relative impact of increases in advertising. He made the point that Saskatchewan had undertaken a pretty major initiative in terms of tourist advertising in 1984, and over the break I obtained some statistics that show that where, in 1984, we actually had an increase in traffic from the United States. Saskatchewan and Alberta both experienced decreases In traffic. So (

a) the question about advertising, I think if you look at the statistics tends to lead us to the conclusion that our advertising, our targeting has worked; and (

b) it leads to the conclusion that the concern expressed by the Member for Minnedosa about the impact of the conflicts that have occurred, relative to our relationship with North Dakota, have not been detrimental. If you look at the fact that Alberta and Saskatchewan have experienced a lower volume of traffic from the United States, I think, you'd have to draw that conclusion. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thanks very much. Mr.

Chairman, just to finish off some of my commentary earlier and picking up on a slogan for the new federal-provincial agreement of "Go World Class," 1 think before we adjourned this afternoon, I was trying to make it a point that Manitoba is world class and the heritage that we have, and a natural heritage that we have in this province, is nothing but world class. The Member for Arthur is absolutely right; we don't have enough ecological sites designated yet.

Now, one of the reasons for that, and one of the reasons that this department and this agreement concentrates on sports angling, wilderness adventures and a natural self-education is because Manitoba is quite unique in that the natural regions of this province, we have 12 natural regions in the province.

I'm not sure if any other province across the country has that diversity or not. lt runs all the way from the Northern tundra right down Into the Turtle Mountain area and tall grass, short grass, prairie Parkland regions, the lnterlake, you name it, we've got it, even the boreal forest, especially along the eastern part of the province.

That's a unique resource and I'm glad to see that we are attempting to take advantage of that resource, but as the Minister said previously, we have to do lt in a very balanced way so that we do not spoil the resource that we're trying to use as our primary attraction for tourists of the province. As a point - and my final point as to just how critical matters are, we hear references quite frequently from people, even on my side unfortunately, who talk about Manitoba being three-quarters wilderness, so what do we have to worry,about the rest of it for?

I was speaking last week with some people from the World Wildlife Fund and I wanted to find out about some background, a statement that he had made earlier of the endangered species, and this is just birds and mammals that I'm referring to. lt does not include the habitat, the different habitat types and . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. May I remind all members that speeches in the Committee of the Whole House must be strictly relevant to the item under discussion, under Rule 64(2). MR. D. SCOTT: I am, Mr. Chairman.

I think I'm being quite specific and probably more specific than many of the members opposite in their commentary, because we're talking about tourism and I'm talking about the impact of tourism on the basic resource that we're trying to draw tourists here to observe.

When we're looking at Manitoba, Manitoba has over 50 percent of all the endangered species of mammals and birds in this country and so it's that much reason I raise this is because it makes it that much more critical, that when we are developing and increasing tourism in the natural regions of the province, that we be exceptionally careful so that we do not, in fact, contribute even further to increase the number of endangered, threatened, rare or extirpated species that we already have in Manitoba, because, as I said, out of those types of species, there's - I forget the total number of them - 25 species in Manitoba that are already extirpated, rare, endangered or threatened, and that is over half of the total species in the whole country.

So I feel very clearly . . . 1892

Monday. 13 May, 1985 MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, is this relev ant to touris m? If lt Is, then we want to cov er the waterfront. MR. D. SCOTT: lt's very releva nt. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Not to touris m, it is n't. MR. D. SCOTT: Mr. Chai rman, this is a prime diffic ulty I have with the members' opposit e attit ude and some people in touris m in dustry's atti tude towards touris m is that they thin k that the envi ronment has absolutely no con sequences to massive. touris t development and it has a very, very di rect im pact on our natural envi ronment.

If we are tryi ng to attract touris ts to this provi nce for the purpose of them benefitin g from the tremendous resources that we have In this provi nce , we have to protect those resource.s. Otherwise, what are we goi ng to attract in to Mani toba for? What is goi ng to be the attracti on to go to people in other countr ie.s , In other provinc es , and the Unit ed State.s in partic ular, to come to Manitoba if we parti c i pate carelessly in the developi ng of wha tever in dustry it is ?

Tourism has a very major key here, yet their development actually hurts the re.source that we cannot dev elop an in dustry with no regard to the envi ronment, which is desig ned to try and explo it ; tha t that exploi tati on has to be done very care fully so that the resource it self is not de.stroyed. I hope and I have conf id ence in this Minister that he will in the exerci se of this agreement, in co-ope ration with the Gov ernment of Canada, take fully that premi se of protect io n alongsi de touris m, for If we do not, we will not have a touris t attracti on to attract people to Manitoba.

Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair thanks the Member for lnk ster. Mr. Minister. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you. 1 thin k the honourable member in his final, fi nal, fi nal summ ation made the point that there has to be a balance. I acknowledge and I think all of us do that if we for other econom i c reasons dec id ed to endanger certa i n kinds of habit at, certa i n wildl i fe, that it would have a lo ng-term detri mental effect on touris m in the provi nce. There is a direct relationship . Havi ng sai d that, Mr.

Chai rperson, I thin k that all members recogni ze that there has to be a balance and wherever there is to be major development, that the envi ronment and it s im pact has to be cons id ered. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The government si de have raised ra ised a very in tere.stin g point and I'm just wonderin g, in terms of touris m, whether we're cap ital izi ng on the polar bear potenti al in the Church il l area. When we're talk i ng of the ecol ogical aspects of it , and I'm just wonderin g I thin k really, Mr.

Chairman, that a touris t potenti al - I'm no t sayi ng this necessar i ly li ghtly. I want to touch on that a li ttle bit because it's been opened up. I thought it was goi ng to sort of run along the main li nes a li ttle bit. I had the occas i on in 1978, I took my wife and my two youngest chi ldren and the truck and camper and I tou red the northern part of the provi nce for three weeks. I had occas i on to vi sit all kinds of parks. I'd never been up North li ke that. I cov ered the whole North and various lakes, did fishi ng and I love fishin g.

We ended up at Thompson and we took the train from Thompson to Church ill. lt was a very exc it ing experience for my family and myself. 'Ne travelled through the night and arrriv ed in Chu rchi ll in the morning - this was the beginnin g of August. One of the things that we were exc i ted about was seeing the Beluga whale and seein g a polar bear. The weather was such that we couldn 't get across the Port of Prin ce of Wale.s to see it . Anyway, these were things that exc it ed us when we took that tra i n trip down there.

I'm just wonderi ng, when we talk of the Cadlllac projects that we're promoting here, is there some way we can promote this kind of a project In Churchi ll . The Americ ans spend all kinds of money to enjoy our northern part of the provi nce and noth ing is more attract ive and exciti ng than seeing a whale, seeing a polar bear and seeing the gee.se durin g the nesti ng season when they walk right besid e the vehicle.s out there.

These points come to mind now that the Member for ln kster has ra ised this Issue, I'm wonderi ng is there so me way that we can get on a majo r program of promoting a place li ke Church il l. We're often anti ci pating Church il l in terms of grain movements and stuff li ke that, but I thin k there's a much greater potentia l that we can make use of out there and promoting a trai n ride even from Winnipeg. Let's tie somethi ng Into that, whether it 's a priv ate entrepreneur or not, but there is tremendous potential and it 's a great experience.

Myself, havi ng liv ed In Manit oba, had my eyes opened, I thin k this is somethi ng that we should promote. But we seem to be lack i ng In that, that we don't promote and overlook the things that we have that we can sell to the people who are prepared to do this kind of thin g. HON. J. STORIE: I app reci ate the member's in tere.s t in Churchi ll and the area. lt is unique , and certa i nly there have been major efforts over the last couple of years to promote Church i ll and the area as a desti nation poin t.

I shoul d in dicate right now that, as of last year, the faci li tie.s that would be util iz ed by touris ts were used to capacity. In other words, you know, there has been su ffi c ient marketing to draw enough people in to the Churchi ll area that they are saturated at this poin t. I think the point that the member makes is , Is there goin g to be a major Initiativ e under the new program, and ce rtain ly Church i ll is vi ewed as a de.stination point that has many world class features.

The Member for Sturgeon Creek, I beli eve it was, was discu ssi ng earlier the merit s of Churchi ll and the fact that it has a world renowned reputation for both it s wildlife and the envi ronment it self which is uniq ue - the Beluga whales, the Polar bears, etc. So, I thi nk there is tremendous potentia l there and I know, and I am quit e conf id ent, that the new agreement will be used to advantage by both the commun it y and by entrepreneurs who are fami li ar with the attract i ons of Churchi ll. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: lt bothers me a li ttle bit when the Minister says that la st year we maxi mized to saturatio n 1893

Monday, 13 May, 1985 the tourist facilities out in that area. That really bothers me. Is the Minister telling us that we don't have enough hotel accommodations out there and that we don't have enough tour type of setups up there, because this is what people are looking for? If that is the case then, I have to be critical of the Minister and say that he has been falling down on his job because this should have been initiated by the government.

If there's that kind of potential that we have it saturated, you know, that we're going to start packing them off and saying, well, we can't accommodate you, something is wrong. HON. J. STORIE: First I should say that I don't know whether this has been an ongoing problem. I know that it was a problem last year. Churchill, like other destination points, takes a while to develop. The word Is passed, by and large, through word of mouth. So I think the reputation Churchill has gained is one that is growing.

Destination Manitoba assisted seven projects in the Churchill area and I'm interested, I am intrigued, if not fascinated, by the member's suggestion that the government take the initiative In the tourism area. I don't think that the new agreement promotes government initiative per se. I expect that there are community groups, local level governments. that may interest themselves In projects in the Churchill area because of the increasing demand.

We expect that there are private entrepreneurs In Churchill who will see their way clear to utilize either programs to, or a program for, or one of the other programs to their advantage. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, I just raised the point of Churchill with the committee here, and with the Minister, and I think we have other areas like that. I think maybe we have to twig this Minister's Imagination from time to time so that he gets with us and because we have a Jot to sell.

He's so caught up with the big Cadlllac programs here, and I think we have to look at some of the grassroots developments where we have it right now that we can expand on. I am not saying necessarily that the government has to get involved and spend their monies on it, but the promotion end of it itself. If you show the possibility of profit somewhere to somebody, there are going to be people that are prepared to spend their money and do this type of thing. A MEMBER: What's a good polar bear rug worth? MR. A. DRIEDGER: A Jot of money. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I wouldn't want the member to be left with the impression that we don't recogn ize Churchill as what he calls a Cad illa c opportunity. Jt is a world class destination point at this time. I won't go into all the various commitments the government has made to Churchill in other ways, Including the establishment of a hydro line to the community, but there have been, through Destination Manitoba, as I said, seven projects approved, and through the dol lars that the province spends in advertising, certainly Churchill is one of the areas that has a high priority.

I am told by staff that last year we received approximately $2 million in value from what is called Writer Tours. In other words, we supported writers in their travels, and the free publicity that we got from that was worth $2 million, because they went back and wrote in their journals, in the travel journals, in local magazines and so forth promoting Churchill as a destination point. So we haven't forgotten Churchill. I think that it does play a large role in the planning of the department, and the possibility of a major world class facility developing through this program, I think, is quite good. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Just a final comment. The Minister is sincere, but what he is saying is, when we look at the brochures, there is very little promotion about the extreme northern part of our province - the tundra. These are things that excite the imagination of many people, but we don't do that. We concentrate on the southern parts. I think the Minister Is actually giving us fancy words and missing the point, you know. HON. J.

STORIE: Well, I would invite you down to the Tourist Information booth in the Legislature where you will see a 14 foot polar bear, which we have dragged faithfully to a number of shows both in Manitoba and in the United States, promoting Churchill. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1) - the Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, in this item he has a salary niduction. Now, with the new program that has come on stream as of today, will the persons that are classified in this Salaries (b)(1) be administering the new program? HON. J. STORIE: There may be some transfer of people.

The reduction simply is Indicative of the fact the program was winding down. As I said, there may be some people transferred where there are equivalent responsibilities under the new agreement, but I expect that there will be some additional hiring as well. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, 1'118 got a number of grants that have been approved by Destination Manitoba under

Section 3 on Page 23. I'm going to ask the Minister If it's easier for me to ask him about the dozen or 15 or Is it better If I just read them off and he, through his office, will provide me with the information within the next few days. Which is more convenient? HON. J. STORIE: No, I think it's simpler, If the member is willing to receive a written response on the details of the grants, I think that's probably the simplest way to go. it would take some time for staff to pass the Information through me and he will get a fuller response If he's . . . I appreciate his co-operativeness. MR. W.

STEEN: I'll just briefly make mention of some that have come to my mind that I have wanted to ask about and some of my caucus colleagues have wanted to ask about. During the past three days we've had a great deal of discussion about the Winnipeg Convention Centre and we see there's a $38,992.50 there, and also the 1894

Monda,. 13 May, 1985 Minister made reference earlier about the fact that through the grant funding or block funding to the City of Winnipeg that the Convention Centre receives money from the Provincial Government; so keeping in mind the conversation that's gone on between the Minister and myself on the Convention Centre, I'd like to know what this grant was for. Another one of Interest is Riding Mountain National. lt doesn't mean anything to me when you say Riding Mountain National. Riding Mountain National Park or Riding Mountain National Riding Academies or what? lt's a $15,000 one.

Encore'83 Ltd.- $22,000 is one that strikes me as being an unusual. The Red River Exhibition Association - during the Minister of Sport's Estimates and Urban Affairs, it came out that the Red River Exhibition Association receives the opportunity to have a casino night in the Convention Centre, which is granted through Lotteries, as a fund raiser for themselves, as well as most members of committee will know that the exhibition has been successful in raising a profit from their exhibition each year since '51.

They may have had one or two years that they've had disastrous weather and haven't been successful in ending up in the black. Obviously, this I think would be for some special project that they could have wanted to undertake. Canadian Waterslides Ltd., one of my colleagues asked, "Is this money to look into a feasibility study for a major waterslide?" Then there was talk of one in north Brandon. The Blue Bomber Football Club, Is this something to do with the new facility that they put up last year that they got a great deal of money from the Federal Government?

Was this the portion that the Provincial Government shared on? Another one is Race-track Management Ltd ., $25,000; Manitoba Great Western Harness Circuit, $10,000; these might be just normal grants that are given to these associations and they may be ongoing on a yearly basis - I don't know - or maybe they were just the one-shot effort. Perhaps the Minister, through his department, can Indicate what they were for. Sportsmen's Group Travel, $7,500 - I would like a little more detail on that one; the Manitoba Restaurant Food Services Association, $38,498.98.

Earlier this afternoon the Member for Pembina made reference to the Thompson Ski Club Inc. I see up above that there Is the Gimli Harbour Park development, $61,825, and then the Glmll Harbour Park development, again for $123,650; that's a substantial amount of money going into that one area. One, Mr. Minister, in your own constituency. What did the Flin Flon Chamber of Commerce do with $180,000.00? That's a substantial grant; I would like to have more detail on that one.

Trapper Don 's Gu iding, $25, 000; Wasagaming Properties up at the Clear Lake area, $7,594; and then Rolston, W.A.- I would Imagine those are the initials of an individual who got $10,500.00. I wonder what that individual did with that sum of mon ey. Lee's Holiday Bunga lows is an example of just one of a number of cottages and resort areas that have received monies. I am familiar, having been a regular attender at the Grey Owl at Lee's, as to what he received his monies for and so on.

Then I see one more down further, a Kenneth and Janet Bridgeman who received $25,000.00. lt sounds like an individual rather than a corporation. So those are examples of grants that have been expended by the government, in looking through, that have caught my eye or caught the eye of colleagues of mine. I don't need a lot of detail, but I would just like to know what category they fell into. They received the money and it was used to either refurbish - In Lee's Holiday Bungalows, refurbish his facilities, and he matched it with X dollars and so on - something along those lines.

If I could get that information from the Minister, it would be most helpfu l. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, we will endeavour to get the information back. Some of them are marketing, some of them are projects. lt's probably simplest just to give you the details In writing. MR. W. STEEN: Another question - If the Minister could tell me - he made reference in this afternoon's session of the private sector board on the advisory board for the Destination Manitoba. Can he tell me the makeup of the board, who was on the board? HON. J. STORIE: At this point, Mr.

Chairperson, the final composition of the board has not been approved. As I indicated at that time, the makeup of the board is again a join t undertaking of the two levels of government, so there has to be some consensus with respect to the final makeup of the board. There has been a list of potential candidates circulated, I believe, at this time, and we will be making a decision fairly shortly. MR. W. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps the Minister thought my question was the makeup of the advisory board of the new project, the new program that the government has entered Into; I was meaning the advisory board, the private sector people that approved the many Destination Manitoba grants that I discussed when I read off a dozen or better names. Who from the private sector was involved and what has happened In the past? HON. J. STORIE: Would the member like the names? The names are Mr. C.

MacKay - I presume that's Cam MacKay, or Cliff MacKay - pardon me - Cliff Mac­ Kay is the pronunciation - who was the eo-chair as federal member; Mr. R. Yuel - that's a strange name -w ho is the eo-chairman, provincial member; Mr. Hank Derksen, federal member; Ms. J. Sigurdson, provincial member; Mr. Wilf Organ, who the member may know; Mr. Bob Lockle, who then was the executive vice­ president of Tourism Manitoba; Mr. S. Novak, who was a member in the Manitoba Hotel Association, and from Flin Flon; Mr. Gordon Harrls, the owner of the MacGregor Hotel, also an alternate with Manitoba Hotel Associatio n; Mr.

Alan Finnbogason, employed at Eaton's; Mr. Penwarden, from Churchill; Mr. Webber as well from Churchill; and a Mr. Bennett, representing the Manitoba Lodge and Outfitters Association. Some of those are members, some alternates. So it was a review committee with a fairly broad representation not only In terms of the geography of the province, but in terms of Industry representation as well. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, then, as the Destination Manitoba is being wound down, naturally those board 1895

Monday, 13 May, 1985 appointments will be phased out and something along those lines will be structured for the new Go World Class Economic and Regional Development Agreement, I would gather. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, that was my mista ke. That was the process that I was explaining in answer to a question that the member didn't ask it. MR. W. STEEN: Pass, Mr. Chairman, unless one of my colleagues has any further questions on Destination Manitoba; (b)(1) and (2), you can pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1)- pass; 3.(b)(2)-pa ss.

I am cal l ing 3.(c )(1), Manitoba Horse Racing Commis sion: Grant Assistance - the Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Yes, I would like to ask the Minister if the two judges from the Standardbred Meet that were suspended earlier, and I believe have been suspended, if they were penalized in any way, shape or form in the way of dollars and cents during the period of suspension. HON. J. STORIE: Well, first, to clear the record, the two judges that the member refers to were never suspended. The two judges were served notice as per the requirements of their collective agreement.

The purpose of serving notice was so that at the end of the season, before assig ning judges for the upcoming season, that the Racing Commission would have a chance to review all app l icants for the positions to ensure that we had the best possible people reviewing and maki ng decisions on the rac e-trac k that we possibly could have. Subsequent to their notification and the termination of their employment, they I believe, both of them, reapplied for positions for the great western harness racing circuit.

One of them will be employed during the summer meet and one of them will not; one of them will be employed as the executive secretary of the great western circuit. That is not a Commission position as a position that is managed and falls under the jurisdiction of the great western harness horseracing circuit. MR. W. STEEN: Can the Minister give us the names of the two persons that will go with the first person that he referred to and they will be worki ng the great western circuit this summer as judges? HON. J. STORIE: The names are Mr. Page, Mr. Chisholm, and two will alternate; Mr. Shaw and Mr. Pliszka.

The same as la st year, those two individuals alternated last year as well. MR. \IlL STEEN: The person that was working the winter standard bred circuit that went with the great western circuit? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Keayes. MR. W. STEEN: Keayes. I'd like to ask the Minis ter- I ask ed him this question in the House about six weeks ago about the Supervisor of Racing, Mr. R.P.

Topley - and I asked him the question if he was a contract employee of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission or - by cont ract employee I meant a temporary employee fil l ing in for a certain segment of time, whether it be the winter standardbred or the winter standard bred plus the thoroughbred season and so on - or had he been made a year-round employee of the Horse Racing Commission? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, I believe I answered the member's question in the House. Mr.

Topley was originally selected by the Commission from over 100 applicants from across Canada, and I believe from an international group of competitors. He began his employment with the Commission in June of'83, the terms were that after a period of time there would be a review and that review was undertaken and rather than a contract position, the position was made into a full-time position by the Commission. MR. W. STEEN: By being a full-time empl oyee of the Commission is he a provincial civil servant? HON. J. STORIE: I don't believe that he woul d be, strictly speaki ng, a civil servant.

He's not a member of MGEA. He operates under the authority of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission. MR. W. STEEN: What is the length of Mr. Topley' s contract? Has it got an expiry date? HON. J. STORIE: lt is not a contract, it is a position that the Horse Racing Commission established. lt is full time permanent, subject only to the normal dismis sal provision, with just cause. MR. W. STEEN: The Member for Virden asked what those provisions are, if the Minis ter could elaborate a little bit furt her. MR. CHAIRMAN: Who is ask ing the question? The Member for River Heights.

MR. \IlL STEEN: The Minister made "reference to subject to certain provisions. I'm ask ing what's he mean by certain provisions. HON. J. STORIE: Well, the provisions I was referring to is tha t he will continue in the employ of the Commission until such time as (

a) he resigns or (

b) he is dism issed by the Commission for just cause. MR. W. STEEN: To the Minister, can he tell me what racing and race-tr ack experience Mr. Topley had prior to coming to Winnipeg? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I don't have all of the information wit h me. I believe I did place on record the fact that Mr. Topley was employed in Ontario, employed by the Federal Government, had actually been an owner and had actually raced , has ess entially spent his lif etime involved in both the harness and the thoroughbred racing indus try.

His qualifications, his bac k ground are exceptional and obviously that is why he was chosen from amongst 100 people to fulflll the position of Supervisor of Racing. 1896

Monday, 13 May, 1985 MR. W. STEEN: Of the 100 applicants, Mr. Chairman, to the Minis ter, can the Minister recall how many may have been Manitobans? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, no, I was not the Minister responsible at the time. I do know that there were a number of applic ants from Manitoba. I suppose that choosing an employee from amongst 100 is a difficult prospect at the best of times. The members of the Commission at that time chose what they believed to be the best candidate. I don't know that they wouldn't have chosen a Manitoban if they felt a Manitoban was equally qualified.

Obvious ly , they felt that Mr. Topley was the best qualified and the person that could best fulfill the functions of Supervisor of Racing. I' m informed that there was a short list of 15 candidates, eight of whom were Manitobans. MR. W. STEEN: Can the Minister tell me, and I know he wasn't the Minister at the time, but perhaps the records show or his assistants can help him, Mr. Freeman that acted in the position of Supervisor of Racing for a short period of time, why was he released? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson - I think it was Freedman wasn't it, was it Freeman? - Freeman was actu ally requested by the Federal Government to return to the United States because it was felt that a Canadian could fill that positi on. So, it was not a decision of the Commission per se that saw Mr. Freeman leave, it was Imm igration Canada. MR. W. STEEN: So, the Federal Government of the time would not permit Mr. Freeman to have a working visa so that he could continue and carry on in this position then? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister nodded. Mr. Minister. HON. J. STORIE: That's correct. MR. W.

STEEN: Over the past four years, we've had a great deal of difficulty at the track. As I have said in the past, we've gone through three Ministers who have been responsible for the Horse Racing Commission; we've gone through three chairmen or chairpersons of the board; and we've gone through three persons that have acted in the role of Supervisor of Racing. This past winter's standard bred season seemed to be the season that we had the most difficult time. We had horse owners and trainers taking the Racing Commission to court on th ree or four occasions and judgments coming down against the Commission.

We've had a great deal of di ffi culty with the Commission holding In-camera meetings that horsemen and their legal advisors have felt, as well as courts, that shouldn't have been in-camera, and generally it's been a winter season of chaos. I would ask the Minister - (Interjection) - Well, I hear from across the way, a former Minister talking about a receivership of some three year's ago.

Yes, there's no doubt that horse rac ing in Manitoba has gone through some dif ficul t growing pains within the last four years and from the track going into rec eivership to the dif ficulty of finding, obviousl y, the right Minister who either wished to be Minister responsible for the Horse Racing Commission through to finding a suitable chairperson, to finding a suitable Supervisor of Raci ng. Right now I'm asking the Mini ster about the Supervisor of Racing, who seems to be a person that - we have operated In a state of turmoil over this past winter.

Is the Minister confident, now that much of this turmoil is finished and that the dif ficulties that we have had with this past winter's meet are over with, or are they just subsided for the time being because the standardbr ed season has finished at the Downs and will now go on the Great Western Circuit? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, the turmoil that exists, exists in the member's Imagination and is largely of his creat ion, rather than a matter of fact . I have said in the House a number of times that, (

a) the attendance and the handle through the standard bred season were up. There were, as a matter of fact, two different occasi ons, which created problems at Assiniboia Downs. One was the fail ure to contest the slow pace, which involved a number of drivers. The court challenges that the member referred to related to that incident and an incident where an individual on the track was found with injectables.

Both of those situations are against the rules, were identified by the judges, by Individuals at the track, correctly so; and what the Court of Qu een's Bench found, was that the procedu res that should have been followed were not followed. I have said to the member, and publicl y, that obviously the Horse Racing Commission has established rules, regulations and procedures and those shou l d be followed. I have met with the Horse Racing Commission on a numb er of occasions.

We have dis cussed how we might avoid the kinds of situations that occurred during the winter meet, in the coming seas on, and I think we will be able to correct those problems. The member makes reference to the turmoil at the track. Mr.

Topley has been Supervisor of Racing since Ju ne of 1983 and to say, because of two incidents at the track over a racing season, two incidents - there were many dif ferent hearings of court cases that resulted from those two incidents but they stem essentially from one race and an Incident at the Downs; so it's not as if every race, and there were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of races, ended in turmoil. Most of them were satisfac torily completed to the advantage and enthusiastic support of the crowds and the people involved. I have met with the Manitoba Harness Horsemen on an informal basis.

I had a lengthy meeting, and there was no indication that there was turmoil at the track. In fact, there was some dis cussion about the causes and the reasons for some of the problems, the rules and how they were enforced were discussed, also the fact that some people don't want to follow the rules. I made the point as well - and I want this to be clear - that in no instance was there a denial that an infraction had been committed. If an infraction is committed, I think it should be called, whether it's in horse racing or hockey or anything else. I think that's an important point that we shOt·ld note.

To my knowledge, none of the people involved in the incidents that followed from that have denied the fact 1897

Monday, 13 May, 1985 that they committed infractions. My suggestion is, follow the rules and there won't be any problems. I believe the rules need to be developed in a fair and c<K>perative way. The Racing Commission, with the assistance of the Supervisor of Racing, and I believe a member of the Commission, met with the harness horsemen, have gone through on a clause-by-clause basis, the rules and regulations that govern standardbred racing. There were five separate meetings.

The rules in the 1985 season will reflect a consensus of horsemen and Downs officials and will be the best set of rules that we've operated from. I remind the member that for a period years there was no standard bred racing, that standardbred racing was introduced at the Downs in the 1981 season, so we're working at some . . . MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Virden will state his point of order. MR. H. GRAHAM: I just want the record to be corrected. I don't think standard bred racing started at Assiniboia Downs in 1981. I think it started long before that. MR.

CHAIRMAN: That's a point of Information. Mr. Minister. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I believe I said it re-started. I am aware of the fact that it was going at the Downs prior to 1977, I believe. However, there was a period, a hiatus, where there was no standardbred racing and I've said that the rules obviously have to be addressed. Those have been, in a very co-operative way. I believe, as well, that we have a good working relationship with the harness horsemen. There are a number of individuals who were responsible for more than one infraction.

There were difficulties experienced with personnel and with the process. I acknowledge that and those problems will be addressed; but to suggest that the Downs was in turmoil is misleading and inaccurate. To suggest that we had a couple of problems would be fair. MR. W. STEEN: The Mi nister can put whatever definition he wants on it.

I say that, from my experience in talking to the horsemen and many of them over the past num ber of months, I still would use the word "turmoil." Perhaps the Commission has relieved itself of one of its problem and that was a judge by the name of Charles Jbey that was brought in by Mr. Topley from Eastern Canada that tried to, in my opinion, over­ exercise his role and when the Minister talks about failure to contest a slow pace, yes, it is pretty difficult when it's 30 below outside for horsemen and the animals to run at the suggested pace that they should.

I think If the Minister checks that he'll find that when the failure to contest the slow pace was done in extremely cold weather - and I believe this past winter there was some seven or eight days that racing had to be cancelled because of extreme weather, but there were other days that they raced when it was fairly cold and it's only understandable that the horses or any human are not going to perform at their best under those conditions. Mr. Topley, in one of his public statements, said that the racing handle was up and things were going along smoothly.

He failed to mention that they had gone from -i s it 10-12 races per day? - and surely if there's an increase in number of races per day, the handle should be up. I think when he made reference to the handle being up, it was something like 8 percent. I would think that two additional races on the card would account for the 8 percent increase. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, the member does make a point that the handle is up obviously because there were more races. The races increased by two per week, which if my arthmetic is fair, represents about a 4 percent increase in the num ber of races. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Would the Minister care to change that to two per day rather than two per week? HON. J. STORIE: No, I don't think I will. The races were 10 per day for five days and that could comes out to 50. There were four race days following with 12 races per day. So If you do your arithmetic you come out with two additional races per week. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, how many years did the Horse Racing Commission operate on five racing days per week and for how long? HON. J.

STORIE: Well, I understand that prior to this year that they did operate by and large on the five­ day 10-race format. MR. H. GRAHAM: What days were those? HON. J. STORIE: I'm sorry, does the member refer to the four days or the five? MR. H. GRAHAM: The Minister said. they operated on a five-day schedule. What days were they? HON. J. STORIE: The days were Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. MR. H. GRAHAM: Tuesday, Wednesday, Frid ay, Saturday, Sund ay, and for how many years? HON. J. STORIE: Well, I can't say for sure, Mr. Chairperson.

As I said, the standard bred season started again in'81, so I presume that for those years, at least, back untll'81, that there were five. Again, the numb er of days racing is not determined strictly by the Commission. The racing days actually are determined, I think, fairly between the Federal and Provincial and the track itself which has some say on what days the racing shall operate. MR. H. GRAHAM: To the Minister - can the Minister indicate if a race can be held where the public is invited to participate? Can it be held without the approval of the Racing Commission? 1898

MondaJ, 13 May, 1985 HON. J. STORIE: If the member is talking about a race that is held in conjunction with parl-mutuel betting, the answer is no. At least I believe it's no. MR. H. GRAHAM: So then if there were races held, they were held with the approval of the Racing Commission, is that right? HON. J. STORIE: I believe that's accurate. And the Federal Government, the Department of Agriculture I presume. MR. H. GRAHAM: The Minis ter presumes it was the Department of Agriculture. Was the Department of Agriculture? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, can the Minister tell us how many racing days there were in 1981? HON. J. STORIE: In 19 81, I can provide th at information, I can tell you how many days in the 1985 seaso n. The'83-84 was 11 1;'8 4-85 was 103. MR. H. GRAHAM: ln'8 3? HON. J. STORIE: '83-84 was 111 . MR. H. GRAHAM: '82? HON. J. STORIE: I don't have that information on me. The current supervisor of racing was not involved at that point. I can cer tainly get that information as well if the member would like it. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, in 1983 . MR. H. GRAHAM: In 1983, there were 111, was that right? HON. J. STORIE: '83-84, yes.

That's the Downs portion of it, yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: When did the racing start and when did it end? HON. J. STORIE: October till April. MR. H. GRAHAM: What dates? HON. J. STORIE: Approximately the middle of October till the middle of April. MR. H. GRAHAM: October 15th to April 15 th? HON. J. STORIE: I'm only saying approximately, Mr. Chairperson. MR. H. GRAHAM: So, you're looking then at five months or better and you had a total of 111 racing days? That works out to five races per week does it? HON. J. STORIE: That was the case in'83-84, yes. Mr.

Chairperson, actually I said earlier that there was five-da y-a-week racing previou sly , but in'8 3-84 apparently October-November on the warmer weather and in March-April of that year, there were five racing days in the warm months and four only in the colder months. MR. H. GRAHAM: I thank th e Mi nister for tha t informa tion. So, there were not five racing days continuous through the entire seaso n? lt was only for a short period at the beginning and a short period at the end? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, that was the last year. This year they've stuck more to the four-day format. MR. H.

GRAHAM: So then the Minister's statement that there was an increase of only two racing days is actually incorrect? HON. J. STORIE: Well, before the change, yes. There were actually fewer racing days in'84-85 than in'83-84 and the handle went up. That's because there were a numb er of days where it was too cold to race. We can play around with statistics all evening, on the fact where the handle was up and I think that's good news. MR. W. STEEN: Plus the two extra races per day. HON. J. STORIE: We're dealing with total numbers - 111 in'83-84 and 103, so the two extra days have no bearing on those two fac ts.

Those are total days. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, in the most recent annual statement that was released by the Minister's office, it's the 15-month, 19 84 statement versus the 12-month, 1982, which shows, naturally, it's a 15-month statement, rather than a 12, so it should be more than the'82 one, but it's up in some areas considerably. For example, in advertising, it's gone from $4,748 to $9,277.00. Can the Minis ter find out from his people as to why the advertising budget was nearly doubled? HON. J. STORIE: I think it has to do with more advertising and increased costs.

Some of it could have been the job search, the advertising for the positions. I'd remind the member that the job search occurred in that period and there was a call . . . initial ly, no suitable applicant was found. A re-bulletin occurred, so there would have been substantial advertising around that as well. MR. W. STEEN: Another area is, building renovations are almost $8,000 from less than $4,000.00. Does that mean the buildin g renovat ions for the Racing Commis sion - their offices? 1899 HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, it's simply some additional work that was carried on. lt resulted in the adding of some equipment to better utilize space, some dividers, some security screens, etc., desks, chairs, miscellaneous expenses. MR. W. STEEN: Another area is equipment rentals. They've gone from $2,325 to $1 2,287.00.

Monday, 13 May, 1815 HON. J. STORIE: I understand that most of that increase relates to the renting of a video system to use at the rural meets, to assist the judges in following and making sure that the rules and regulations are enforceable. MR. W STEEN: Another item that shows up is the impact assessment study. There wasn't anything spent in'82, and'83-84 fiscal year there was $21,674.00. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, I gather that was an impact assessment study that was undertaken at the board. MR. W. STEEN: What does the Minister mean by an Impact assessment . . .

They assessed what, the value of the board or the value of the staff or the marketing of trying to attract fans to the track so that this large handle, the increase in the handle that we have heard of . .. HON. J. STORIE: Well, I gather that the study was sort of a multi-faceted one that was designed to review the take, the distribution of the take, purse support as well as a review of the economic impact of the functions generally on the economy. MR.

W STEEN: Was that impact study done by an outside source or was it done internally and, secondly, is a copy of that Impact study available to the opposition members of the committee? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, for the member's information, it was handled by an outside consulting firm and I have not seen a copy of it. I understand it was used by the Commission to review all aspects of the Down's viability, to address questions such as the industry growth and development and I believe dealt with some specific matters with respect to purse support and allocation of purse monies. MR. W. STEEN: Obviously, Mr.

Chairman, since the Horse Racing Commission is a public body, then a copy of the Impact assessment study can be made available then through the Minister to members of the committee. HON. J. STORIE: I assume that decision can be made by the Horse Racing Commission.

I don't have the full details to say for certainty that it doesn't deal with personnel matters as well, both In terms of the Industry and personnel, the relationship between the Downs and the Commission, for example; so before I'd commit myself to tabling it, I would want to check with the Commission to make sure that there wasn't something that would be confidential or whatever. I should indicate that by virtue of the fact that it's conducted by the Horse Racing Commission does not automatically mean that it is for public consumption.

All kinds of boards, departments, organizations undertake research and assessments for Internal purposes. I can certainly check with the Commission to see whether they're willing to consider releasing the document or providing the member with the document. MR. W STEEN: I would certainly have no objections if the Commission eliminated the aspect of the study that dealt with individuals, personnel matters pertaining to Individuals by name who either work for the track or the Commission. Otherwise I would wonder If the Commission has anything to hide if they were not prepared to release the study.

Another item I'd ask the Minister about and I trust that he will ask the Commission about the assessment study report and, hopefully, some time in the future we will receive a copy. His membership and dues went from $3,700 to $6,000 in that 15-month period versus a 12-month period. Have membership dues, obviously In the international and Canadian Horse Racing Association gone up by that much? HON. J. STORIE: I'm told that the answer is yes, that there have been substantial increases in both the Canadian and American Association. MR.

W STEEN: Under the item, Office, we have for the'82 fiscal year a $10,078 figure and it jumps to $28,504; and I understand during that period of time a new rule book was written. Did the new rule book cost the difference of $18,000.00? HON. J. STORIE: There were two new rule books developed. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, these were rule books for the thoroughbred racing? HON. J. STORIE: And standardbred. MR. W STEEN: I thought, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister made reference some moments back about another set of rules where we're in the process of being reviewed and so on.

The rule book that was written for standardbred and thoroughbred racing in the'83- 84 year is out of date already and another one has to be rewritten? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the member will recall that the standardbred circuit began again In 1981. The rules were revised utilizing drawing on the rules that existed in other jurisdictions. One of the concerns expressed to the Commission was the appropriateness of drawing most of If not all of the regulations and policies from other jurisdictions.

Wh at we have undertaken is not that the formal kind of the Commission go away and prepare a set of rules, but a consultative process so that the rules that we have are. agreed upon both by the Commission and the horsemen. In my estimation, that kind of joint review is the only way that you can guarantee that people appreciate what the rules are and they have some sense that the rules are fair and equitable. That is the reason that the Commission undertook to review the rules.

I certainly believe that if the member would like to speak to the Harness Horsemen's Association, he would find considerable support for the review that took place and confidence in the new rules that have subsequently been developed through that consultation. MR. W STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. I, like he, think that they should have good strict rules and 1900

Monday, 13 May, 1985 so on. My questioning to him was that if in the years'83- 84 a substantial amount of money Is required for printing of new rule books and for the rewriting of the rule books, this shouldn't be an annual occurrence and that surely to goodness the expenditure of $18,000 at that time, either you put out a good rule book for both - and he did say for both standardbr ed and for thoroughbred - or there's no point spending that kind of money if you weren't satisfied with the rule book then, that it constantly has to be rewritten. I can see you making minor amendments from time to time to any rules.

That's done with the rules that we operate under here in the legislature but, hopefully, you're not going to be rewriting rule books from the first page to the end on a regular and on an annual basis. HON. J. STORIE: The member's point is well taken. The revision and the printing of the two rule books included some plastic and - (Interjection) - I'm sorry, I've let the member proceed under a false assumption. That $18,000 was not just for the printing of two rule books. tt Includes the Increased costs that go to taking the polaroid shots that's required on the licence, that the licencees wear.

So there were a number of other factors beside the printing. The member's point about the printing is accepted. There is 5,000 licences printed so you can assess what the impact of that requirement might be on that $18,000 figure. As well, the thoroughbred rule book will not be reprinted. The only one that requires reprinting at this point is the standardbred one and that's because of the major revisions that were undertaken jointly. MR. W. STEEN: The Minister makes reference to licences. Do the fees for the licences cover the costs of the administration of all the licences? HON. J.

STORIE: ·1 don't think that's the case. MR. W STEEN: Well, I'd like to point out to the Minister that In 1978 the Racing Commission operated on a $64,887 budget. lt went up by a few thousand the next year; ln'80 it went to $132,847; in 1981 it went up to $290,363; in 1982 it went to $421,247; and now in 1984 it's up to $680,367.00. We are now, Mr. Minister, dealing In fairly large figures.

The staff at the Commis sion has Increased from what it was some years ago and, naturally, it should be because there are more days of racing with the winter standardbred circuit in place here at the Downs, although it was operating back in the '70s. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the member obviously identified the major reason for the increased expenditure beginning in 1981 when the costs jumped from $132.8 to $290.4, and that was the introduction of the standard bred season. Since that time, costs have risen from 1981 at $290.4 to the estimate in'85 of $367,000 - a fairly hefty increase.

I should note that the racing days now cover 250 days approximately. So, we have a substantial increase overall. That's largely because of the standardbred meets. Also, the staff are involved in a breeders program on a year-round basis and it has been deemed a necessity to initiate some training programs, partly to ensure that Manitobans are developed to be utilized in the racing industry as judges and stewards. So, that has added some additional costs to the Commis sion as well.

I want to remind the member that $367,000 that is spent on the Commis sion is to oversee pari-mutuet betting that totals some $51 million.

I believe that in the interests of protecting the industry and protecting the betting public that it's important that we have the appropriate staff, the Commission have the necessary support to ensure that things like the rules get reviewed and, obviously, that takes staff time and costs money, but to make sure that the industry remains healthy - we talked earlier about the fact that it came out of a very difficult period and the former Minister responsible for the Horse Racing Commission is here and can tell you some of the agony that she went through in salvaging horseracing In Manitoba.

Due credit, I should say is given to the Member for Osborne by the Downs and by horsemen in the province for taking the initiative and being prepared to step in and do a courageous thing and salvage an Industry; and she undertook that where many people of lesser spirit and lesser energy would have backed away from that challenge. ·M R. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister makes reference to $51 million being wagered at the track or I guess what he means is under the Horse Racing Commission because that would include the great western circuit as well, which is not a substantial amount. HON. J. STORIE: No, it's over and above that. MR. W STEEN: What is the total purses at the Downs in a year? HON. J. STORIE: The total purses are 3.4 - no, I shouldn't use that figure. Just for clarification, is that excluding the Breeders' Program? He's interested only in the horsemen's purses? MR. W. STEEN: Purses earned from the placements in races. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, yes, the horsemen's purses for the thoroughbred were approximately $3.5 million and the harness racing was about $1. 8 million. Just some further information for the member, that the purses were up in the standard bred approximately 15 percent overall and was again because of the increased handle; and the minimum purse support went from $800 to $1,200, which is a 50 percent increase In minimum purse support, so two very positive statistics, I think, for the standardbr ed indus try, generally. I could provide some other Information in terms of the standard bred meet.

The wagering total reached an all-time high as well during the just concluded meet. $307,000 was wagered during one day and during the week another record was reached at $297,000 for a week day event. 1901

Monday, 13 May, 1985 MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, one area that I would like to get some comment from the Minister on and perhaps he can get some assistance from his track officials, and that is, this past winter, during what I . described as turmoil, there was a driver that was, I believe, caught with drugs that had nothing to do with drugs that are used by horses; but the drug business or the drugs that are being trafficked in by humans, and I wonder if it's now time that the Minister and the Commission and the track would perhaps work out an arrangement with the City of Winnipeg Pol ice Department.

And the reason I say the City of Winnipeg Police Department rather than the RCMP is because the track is within the City of Winnipeg's jurisdiction and have a constable or maybe two that are assigned to the track on a permanent basis so as to have a small police detachment. HON. J. STORIE: There is reference in the rule book and I suppose this is what lead to this particular incident, two narcotics, as defined under The Narcotic Control Act - I suppose that the general rule of thumb for the Commission is to let the police do the policing.

I think the Commission, by and large, and staff co-operate with the police and I'm certainly not encouraging, and I don't believe the Commission has encouraged the judges, the personnel, certainly not personnel employed by the Racing Commission to become involved in enforcement of regulations, rules, other than those put in place by the Horse Racing Commission. I should point out that the Downs has its own rules and has security personnel to enforce those rules as well.

I think that there's a need to make sure that everyone understands their appropriate jurisdiction and authority and if that's the point the member's making, then that's something that has been undertaken by the Commission in review with the staff. There's two separate issues, I guess. One is the question of injectables and there was no questions that the injectables that were found were a contraband substance. The other issue about drugs that would be defined under The Narcotic Control Act, those issues were turned over to the police. The police made a decision not to pursue it, for their own reasons. MR. W.

STEEN: I didn't get really a chance to finish what I was going to suggest to the Minister and I should have said that drugs that were supposedly trafficked at the track because there was no charges laid so I guess we're all working under the assumption that it's supposedly - is that I believe that the betting public and the Manitoba taxpayer would feel more comfortable if the government endorsed a policy and had the co­ operation of the Racing Commission and the track - I mean Assiniboia Downs - that there was a permanent police officer who would be skilled in the area of race­ track habits that was constantly assigned and .that was an actual detachment much like you have an RCMP detachment at Headingley.

This would be a person that would be there who would be protecting the public, the Racing Commission, the track. I know that the track in the past has hired retired policemen to handle their security. This is not what I'm worrying about, a few fans that might become somewhat disorderly. I think the track should have commissionaires to look after that. I think that there should be somebody who is constantly on the outlook for drugs, for dishonest persons, for undesirables that are maybe working with horsemen that are on the wanted list by various police departments.

Just generally the track is the type of a place that creates an environment that doesn't always attract the best citizens. I think that there are many, many good persons that do go to the track and like to follow horseracing and like to wager monies.

I'm not for one moment saying that there are a lot of dishonest persons there, but I do think that there is an element of the general public that always questions whether there is full value for your dollar at the track, whether all the persons that are either employed by the track, employed by the horsemen or frequent the track as bettors, etc. and most are desirable type of citizens and honest citizens. I think it would be money well spent If a joint venture with the City of Winnipeg Police Department; if they wouldn't want to touch it for lack of manpower, perhaps the RCMP would want to get involved.

I think that a limited detachment of skilled police personnel and if it was a single person assigned to the track who could draw up on other persons from within a major metropolitan police department, that the citizens of Manitoba would feel far more comfortable that they are being properly protected against all elements whether they be criminal elements or just undesirables, I think that it would be money well spent on behalf of horseracing in Manitoba. HON. J. STORIE: I think the member makes an excellent point.

I should indicate that it's not as if the Horse Racing Commission does n't now maintain excellent relationships both with the City of Winnipeg, Police District 2 and the RCMP. The maintain a liaison with those two groups. The member's suggestion that we establish a more permanent relationship, I think is one that has merit, frankly, and I think the Horse Racing Commission has already considered that and discussed that as a possibility. Certainly, If it's something that is feasible and would deem to be acceptable from the Winnipeg Police generally, I think that we would have to pursue it.

I know that the RCMP· have been co-operative and I expect that if we requested their assistance in any particular way, we would in all likelihood receive a fairly favourable response as well. MR. W. STEEN: I thank the Minister and 1 appreciate his comment. I would just that yes I'm sure that the track is receiving excellent co-operation from District 2 of the Police Department, but those are police offiCers that are looking after numerous complaints and problems that are related to their district.

What I am recommending is a specialist who knows the horseracing industry, knows the bettors, knows who some of the so-called undesirable citizens that frequent tracks are and that in the long run that that individual as a special can protect the horseraclng public of Manitoba. HON. J. STORIE: I've indicated to the member that I think his suggestion warrants consideration and I will 1902

Mondar, 13 MaJ, 1985 certainly take it up with the Horse Racing Commiss ion. I suppose there is always the matter of the effective cost of providing that kind of additional security. I'm sure that those issues will be explored with the Winnipeg Police Force and the RCMP over the next little while. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minis ter. At the present time, the betting public realizes that whenever they bet a dollar there's a ce rtain perc entage of that money goes to the track, some goes to the province.

Can the Minister give me the breakdown on what happens to the $1 bet that the betting public wagers in any race? What perc entage of that goes to the track? HON. J. STORIE: I believe with the current rebate in place, approximately 81 cents on the dolla r goes back to the betting public. The remaining 19 cents on the dolla r would be broken down between purse support, adminis tration, parl-mutuel tax taken on behalf of the province; basically , those categ ories. MR. H. GRAHAM: How is that 19 cents broken down? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson.

The takeout, as I indicated, is 19.240 percent or 19 cents on the dolla r. The breakdown would be 7.8 percent to Ass in iboia Downs; 1.5 percent - I'm rounding these off to the nearest, well in this case, one-tenth of a perc ent - 1.5 percent paid by Ass inlb ola Downs to harness purse - (Int erjecti on) - MR. H. GRAHAM: 1.5 percent to purse? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, 6.6 percent or 6.6 cents to the purses from the Provincial Government - (Interjection) MR. H. GRAHAM: 6.6 to the Provincial Government? HON. J.

STORIE: No, from the Provincial Government to purse supp ort; .2 percent from the breeders to purse support for a total of 8.2 percent. lt's got to be 18 .2 percent or 18 .2 cents and then two additional supports, 1.4 cents, the Breeders Program grants; 1 percent to the province, net of ind ustr y support and the Federal Government has a takeout of .8. That all adds up, in some mysterious fashion, to 19.24. MR. H. GRAHAM: That's 6.6 perc ent that goes to the Provincial Government, is it? HON. J. STORIE: Pardon me? MR. H. GRAHAM: 6.6 percent goes to the Provincial Government, Is that right? HON. J.

STORIE: 6.5 percent is donated by the Provincial Government. Basically , it's a trans fer. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is donated. HON. J. STORIE: Well, no, it's a transfer of funds. All of the funds come through the pari-mutual tax. That 6.575 percent is transferred back to purse support. MR. H. GRAHAM: That's a pari-mutual tax, is it? HON. J. STORIE: Well, it's part of the pari-mutual tax and it goes back into purse support. MR. H. GRAHAM: Of that 6.5, how much goes back? How much does the province give back? HON. J.

STORIE: The province takes 1 percent, given that we've just Introduc ed the 3 percent rebate, the province now takes 1 percent net, 1 percent net of Indus try support. MR. H. GRAHAM: But the province is entitled to take 6.5. HON. J. STORIE: Well, I suppose you could, but this isn't somethi ng that's just been introduced . . . MR. H. GRAHAM: The province has always given that. HON. J. STORIE: The province was taking 4 percent. To differentiate, the province was taking 4 percent in the standard and the thoroughbred.

As the member knows, there was an announc ement only weeks ago whereby we forgave 3 percent of that tax back In to increase the takeout from the wagering public , which leaves us , the province, with a net of 1 perc ent. MR. H. GRAHAM: And how much would that 3 percent forgiveness be, in total? HON. J. STORIE: I believe it was somewhere $1.1 million or $1.2 million, that 3 percent. MR. H. GRAHAM: $1.2 million, and that money goes direct to the operator of the track, does it? HON. J.

STORIE: That 3 perc ent, what happened was that prior to that, I guess you could say, the betting public was getting 78 cents on the dolla r. After the rebate, they were getting 81 cents back from every dolla r bet; so it went directly - the 3 percent rebate and I should say that actually there was 5.16 percent rebate. Three percent came from the province, 1 percent from the Downs, 1 percent from the hors emen and . 16 from the breeders, so those are the stati stics. All of that money went back to the people who bet the dolla r. None of it stayed with the Downs or the horsemen themselves. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, basically what I'm getting at, does the province in any way at the present time give any money to the operator of the race-track, through any of the support programs? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the operator of Ass ini boia Downs takes out 7.8 percent of the tax, but again that's a revenue loss to us. No money flows from the Provincial Government per se to the owner of the track, to the Downs. The only excepti on to that was, I believe, In the'84-85 year, there was money set asi de to support the development of the Downs. That money was never drawn upon though. That's quite separate 1903

Monday, 13 May, 1885 and apart from all of the pari-mutuel tax issues and the purse support. MR. H. GRAHAM: There was a period when there was some trouble with the ownership of the Downs. I believe the province did offer some support at that particular time, was there not? HON. J. STORIE: No, I believe, even during the emergency time, the question that may have been raised was money that was owing to horsemen, but not to the Downs owner per se, so there was no operating support whatsoever to the Downs, to the owner of the Downs. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, earlier today the Minister brought up his "Go World Class" tourism program and I went through the program and I saw various areas, I believe, under Program One, that possibly the Downs could qualify under that, possibly under Program Three, under Program Five, Six and Seven. The Downs, as a genuine tourist attraction, could probably qualify for a number of grants under this new program the Minister's announced.

I guess it begs the question that if the Downs was very successful in qualifying for one or more of those grants, would there be any inclination on the part of the Minister at that time to reduce the track's take to make up for the money that the Downs is getting through direct grants under the tourist thing? HON. J. STORIE: We're getting into the realm of speculation, but going along with the scenario painted by the member it's certainly possible that Assiniboia Downs will determine that they want to apply under the new Tourism Development Agreement.

They're certainly free to do so. lt is certainly considered by many to be a major tourism attraction and obviously, If it meets the criteria, it would have to be considered. lt would not be considered by myself. There is a Program Review Committee in place and it would have to be jointly agreed that was a worthwhile project. That doesn't deal directly with or necessarily relate to the additional support that was provided - not the support, but the incentive that was provided to create increased traffic to the Downs by way of the reduced takeout of wagering. I have said to the Downs and said to Mr.

Wright that we have provided the rebate again for 1985-86 with the understanding that once again the merits of continuing the program will rest on two factors: No. 1, it will rest on whether there is perceived to be a state of health in the Industry . Certainly Asslniboia Downs employs a lot of people. lt is an attraction, so we certainly don't want to jeopardize the overall well-being of the industry for the Downs, so that's one consideration. The second consideration being that the original rebate was provided under the assumption that rebate would increase attendance to the Downs.

There is no doubt from the statistics that did happen. We were the only jurisdiction to my knowledge in Canada that saw both an increase in wagering and an increase in attendance In 1984. After the rebate was introduced, we saw a pretty significant growth in those two areas where other tracks were experiencing a decrease in both attendance and wagering. We believe that assistance was timely. We had the support at that time as Is obvious by the fact that the owners and the horsemen themselves reduced their takeout.

We had support for taking that initiative and we took it. lt was carried on this year partly because we wanted to make sure that attendance continued to grow, partly because we saw a potential problem with the opening of the track in Minneapolis, but continuing forgoing of that 3 percent Is and will be determined by the facts as they exist when it's time to consider continuing the rebate. There is no guarantee. Obviously, the province would like to gather as much revenue as is humanly or equinely possibly. - (Interjection) - lt's a new one, a new one.

We will certainly consider it in that light before making another decision. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to be detracted from the point I'm intending to make. There's something the Minister has said, and I appreciate his desire to take credit wherever possible HON. J. STORIE: Absolutely. MR. H. GRAHAM: . . . but I would suggest to the Minister that If there is an Increase In handle and an Increase in the take and the betting that occurs at the track, I would hope the Minister would give credit where credit is due.

I think that credit belongs to the horsemen because we have seen new records set at the track; we have seen better quality racing; the horsemen themselves have improved the quality of the racing and I think they deserve the credit that is justly theirs. I would hope the Minister would give the horsemen the credit rather than trying to take the credit himself. That is an aside. The point that I wanted to ask the Minister, the 7.8 percent takeout that the track Is taking at the present time, has that always been a constant figure or has it varied from year to year? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, there are two answers to that, Mr. Chairperson, first, the takeout by the Downs Is a figure that's established by the Federal Government, the federal Criminal Code. Having said that, once the takeout is established, the level of takeout that the Federal Government requires, then the support to the purses is something that's negotiated between the horsemen per se and the Downs. We don't get directly involved in that although, obviously, we do provide our own level of support to the person.

If I might comment on the memb er's concern, certainly, I acknowledge the real contribution that was made by the horsemen and I said in my statement that the horsemen and the breeders and the owner contributed to lessening that takeout. I think the facts are that a 5-percent increase In takeout on the betting public does have an impact and more people will see themselves being winners and that's I guess what's most attractive about racing. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I want to get down to the definition of the parameters of the jurisdiction of the Racing Commission.

Does the Racing Commission have any control, say, over the actual operation of the Downs itself, the conduct of the patrons i.n the Downs? 1904

Monday, 13 Mar, 1SJ85 HON. J. STORIE: No. I think the simple answer is no. The Commission is concerned with licencees only and those people. as opposed to the people that work and come to the track for entertainment, are the indus try, the trainers and whatnot. MR. H. GRAHAM: If a person was concerned, say, about the quality of the food that was provided to the patrons there, would he raise the issue directly with the ow ner or wo uld he raise it wi th the Racing Commission, or would it be a concern of the Racing Commission? HON. J.

STORIE: No, I don't think it would be a legitimate concern of the Commission, but certainly the owner would be fairly taken aback if you suggested that. MR. H. GRAHAM: Would it be a concern of the Minister from a point of view is the Minister also responsible for tourism? HON. J. STORIE: Somewhat of a . . . of course, it would be of concern to me. No, I think that it would be of concern as it is a concern of mine that we maintain superior standards in all of our accommodation, our eating establishments throughout the province.

Any time you provide a superior service, superior quality of service, you do credit to the province and support tourist indus try. So to the extent that people are entertained - I'm searching for a word here - are content with, appreciative of the food and service offered by the Downs, I think that's a good thing. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, if anyone had a complaint about the quality of the food provided by Mr. Axworthy, they would then raise the issue with - (Interjection) - No, no. This is Mr. Robert Axworthy not Mr. Lloyd.

They would then raise the issue with the Downs rather than with the Racing Commission? HON. J. STORIE: I think the only other alternative is to raise it in the House and try and embarrass the Minister . MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of doing that because I have eaten at the race-track on several occ asions and I've found the food to be what a person would expect when he went to a race-tr ack. Mr.

Chairman, I want to go back to a deal that was made quite some time ago when the decision of the Racing Commission was - and I use the word advisedly - interfered with by the Federal Minister of Immigration, Mr. Lloyd Axworthy. At that time, I believe the Racing Commission was very satisfied with the services of Mr. Freeman, but because of federal intervention it was decided that his services were no longer - what's the best wo rd - desirable in Canada. Was there any complaint lodged by the Minister responsible for the Racing Commission at that time with the Federal Government? HON. J.

STORIE: lt's unfortunate that the member chose to ask that particular question at this time because the Minister that was responsible was there and I could have received an answer from her.

I believe that it was the view of the Commission that they had conducted a fairly thorough search for a candida te at that time and were satisfied that there was a need to employ someone from outside the province and outside the country; so I am fairly confident that having done that, that information was conveyed to Imm igration Canada and I assume at some point either through Imm igration Canada or through the Racing Commission to the Federal Minister, of their concern about that issue.

The Minister made the decision, I understand at least, unila terally, without regard to the concerns of the Commission or the expressed views of the Commission at that time, so that's about all I can say on that issue. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, was that then, because of that dissatisfact ion, was that the reason why the Racing Commission decided, with or without consultation with the Minister, to pay a rather healthy bill to the Manitoba Hospital Services Commission on behalf of Mr. Freeman? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, my understanding was that it was done as part of the terms of contracting the services of Mr. Freeman. I don't think that it had ·anything to do, per se, with the Minister's decision to declare him persona non grata. I should say that one of the outcomes of that experience was the establishment of the trainin g program conducted at the Downs to develop local Manitoba talent who would be able to act in those capacities. The Ontario Racing Commission had a simila r experience where they could not find personnel and began a similar training program; so there weren't all downsides to that event.

We did learn something and perhaps some Manitobans will eventually benefit from that incident. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, if that is the case, is the Minister prepared to table the contract with Mr. Freeman for this committee so we can see that those were the actual terms of the contract, that his health bills would be paid all the time he was in Manitoba? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, there is no contract with Mr. Freeman. Mr. Freeman has been gone since October,'83.

The explanation that was given in the Hous e, I believe, wa s that it wa s provided for compassionate reasons and to ensure that he could fulfil! his functions. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, that's not what the Minister said. The Minister said it was In agreement with the terms of his contract. HON. J. STORIE: No. I think I said that it was one of the terms and conditions that were discussed to attract him to the province. In other wo rds, it was a consideration. He had a number of concerns, obviously with respect to health, and that was one of those issues which was felt to be resolvable by the Commission.

I have no knowledge of the particular contract or the terms and conditions of that contract at this point. As I said, I was not the Minister responsible at the time. 1905

Monday, 13 May, 1985 MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister says he has no knowledge of it, why did he make that kind of stat ement? The Minister said that was the terms and conditions of his contract. Now, can the Minister please clarify, for members of this committee, what the terms and conditions of that cont ract was and also, whether those conditions were entered into prior to the hiring of Mr. Freeman or whether it was agreed to after his dismis sal? HON. J. STORIE: I honestly don't know all of the details.

I said that my understanding was - and again, I have the same information I suppose as the member opposite in terms of the debate that was raging at that particular time - my understanding was that health considerat ions were of concern to the individual. I don't know whether it was part of his contr act or there was information given to him which led him to believe that his MHSC fee, bill, whatever it was, would be assumed by the Commission. My knowledge is essentially the same as the member's. That's my recollection of the events.

I don't have access, nor did I ever have access to the contract, nor the strict rationale for whether it was provided inside or outside the contract or why it was provided exactly, other than there was some need on the part of the individual to have su pport of his particular health problems and I don't even know what they were. MR. H. GRAHAM: Will the Minister undertake to find out and give a full report to members of the committee? HON. J. STORIE: I can cer tainly undertake to establish the background for that particular incident and provide members with information on the rationale that was provided. MR. H.

GRAHAM: I thank the Minister for that. Mr. Chairman, I believe the Minister also indicated that the Commission embarked on a training program at that particular time. Is that correct? A training program for personnel? HON. J. STORIE: lt wasn't exactly at that time, but it was one of the ramifications, it became obvious that there was that need to start training Manitoba personnel. I don't know that it foll owed on the heels within days or months but it followed by a couple of months, I guess, is the best answer. MR. H. GRAHAM: And that training program was to train what? Judges or stewards or what? HON. J.

STORIE: Judges and stewards. MR. H. GRAHAM: And was that program embarked upon? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, it was and it is. MR. H. GRAHAM: And the province hired judges in training? HON. J. STORIE: The province didn't, but the Racing Commission did, yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: The Racing Commission hired judges in training? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, essentially that's it and that was one of the reaons that they gave for the increase in Commission costs. MR. H. GRAHAM: That program of hiring judges in trai ning, how many judges were hired under that program? HON. J. STORIE: Only one at that time. MR. H.

GRAHAM: Can the Minister indicate who that person was? HON. J. STORIE: There was one judge and one steward, Mr. Chairperson, and the names are Mr. Macdonald and Noakes. MR. H. GRAHAM: What was the previous occupation of Mr. Macdonald when he was hired? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, he was the race secretary for Assiniboia Downs. MR. H. GRAHAM: Was he not also acting as a judge for the Racing Commission? HON. J. STORIE: No. MR. H. GRAHAM: Did he ever become a judge for the Racing Commission? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is he still a judge for the Racing Commission? HON. J. STORIE: He is a steward. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)( 1)-p ass - the Member for River Heights. MR. W STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, there's a reduction in grant assistance here. His announcement of a couple of weeks ago, does that alter this grant assistance that's listed under 3.(c)( 1)? HON. J. STORIE: No, there are two different issues here. One was the grant assistance which by and large goes to purse support and the second issue is the amount of takeout from the wagering. What was reduced, what was announced some time ago was the 3 percent reduction in takeout, but there is no change in terms of grants still provided on the same basis.

MR. W. STEEN: All right. The 1985 listing of $3.5 million has nothing to do with the fact that the Commission went to a 15 -month Annual Report the previous year? HON. J. STORIE: That may be one of the reasons why it's high, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c )(1) - the Member for Virden. 1906

Monday, 13 May, 1885 MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, so far we have dealt only with racing at the Assiniboia Downs, but that's not the only place where racing is carried on in the province. Can the Min ister indicate if there is any change In - what do they call it - the Great Western Circuit this coming year? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, I understand that there have been two applications to increase race days, McCreary and Miami, and subject to their providing sufficient information it is quite possible that those two additional days will be provided. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, the McCreary racing, would that be harness racing or would that be quarter horse? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chai rperson, that's harness racing. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is there any application from McCreary for quarter-horse racing this year? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Cha irman, not to my knowledge. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is there any application for racing quarter horse at Rossburn this year? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, there are two days. MR. H. GRAHAM: Are there any other racing dates in for quarter-horse racing this year? HON. J. STORIE: There will be no quarter-horse racing on a pari-mutual basis.

There may be, in effect, demonstration-exhibition races. MR. H. GRAHAM: In the past, Mr. Chairman, I believe there were two or three or maybe four races at Assiniboia Downs on qu arter-horse racing. Is that now scrubbed? HON. J. STORIE: No. That is still ongoing and they race perhaps one or two races per week, September and October of the year. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, is Swan River now no longer a member of the Great Western Racing Circuit? HON. J. STORIE: I've got my dance card and I can't find them. They did not apply this year, apparently. MR. H. GRAHAM: Swan River was not in last year either, were they?

HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson. They were not in last year either. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, does the four days of racing at Yorkton come under the Great Western or is that under the Saskatchewan racing? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chair person, I'm not sure of the body, but it doesn't come under the jurisdiction of the Great Western Racing. MR. H. GRAHAM: lt does not? HON. J. STORIE: No, it does not. MR. H. GRAHAM: Those are basically the questions I have on - (Interject ion) - the . MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)( 1)- pass.

Resolution 24: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,427,000 for Business Development and Tourism for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1986- pass. What is the pleasure of the committee? 4.(a)( 1) Expendi tur es Related to Capital, Capital Grants: Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement; 4.(a)

(2) Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Core Area Agreement, Small Business, (2)(a), (2)(

b) Less: Recoverable from Urban Affairs. 4.(a)( 1) - the Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister would be kind enough to just briefly - we did cover Urban Affairs quite extensively. We've covered the Core Area, Small Business Assistance. He's introduced the new agreement with the Federal Government as of today; we're down $2 million In this department. Is that because we were waiting for the new agreement? Is that why the large reduction Is that there was no new agreement until today? HON. J. STORIE: That's essentially it.

There was a certain amount remaining and shows a reduction because of the lesser amount. MR. W. STEEN: 4.(a)( 1) and (2), you can pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a )(1)- pass; 4.(a)(2)(a)-pa ss; 4.(a)(2)( b)-pass. Resolution No. 25: Resolved that there be granted Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $3,209,500 for Business Dev elopment and Tourism, Expendit ures Related to Capital for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1986-p ass. Back to the Minister's Salary . HON. A. ANSTETT: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)(1); 1.(a). MR. W. STEEN: The Gov ernment House Leader was moving pretty qu ickly there, Mr. Chairman.

I had said earlier that I thought we would finish at 10:15 and I kind of missed that target by a few moments, but if the Minister will bear with us for. a few more minutes I think that we will conclude his Estimates completely; if he doesn't have a lot of zlng and fight left in him we'll likely finish within 10 minutes. Mr. Chairman, we have spent a great deal of time reviewing the Department of Business Development and Tourism's Estimates. We have gone into a great deal of discussion in a numb er of areas within the Minister's 1907

MondaJ, 13 MaJ, 1115 Department. In the Business Development area I have tried to encourage thi s Min ister in the area of encouraging employment by saying to him that I have, as do all members of the opposition think that the payroll tax Is a regressive tax. The Leader of the Opposition has said, and he will be campaigning in the next election, that that will be one of the first pieces of business after the next election that will be done away with when there's the Progressive Conservative Government in place.

I have made mention to the Min ister that the encouragement of manufacturing is an important area that should be looked at by the Business Development and the one area that I spent some time on was discounting hydro rates for Manitoba manufacturers; and particularly new persons who would establish manufacturing plants in Manitoba.

I believe that if we're going to expand our hydro development in Northern Manitoba, that Manitobans should be the ones that get first advantage of any discounting In prices and if we're going to attach our major hydro agreements to coal prices In the United States, which we have no jurisdiction or no control over, I would encourage this Minister, as long as he's In this portfolio, and I would certainly encourage any new government that they really take a hard, serious look at a discounting of hydro rates for new manufactu ring, whether it be for a five or to a seven-year period so that we can increase manufacturing in Manitoba.

Another area in the Business Deve lopment area that a lot of discussion was on was regulations that business people are faced with - labour regulations, and it's been said by the Leader of the Opposition that an important aspect in any government of his would be to have a long, hard look at labour regulations that are In place, to find out those that are a disincentive towards business and see if those can be reviewed and, in some cases, dismantled.

In the Province of Saskatchewan, they have done away with some 700 regulations that were affecting business people in the first three years they have been in government. We spent a lot of time in the area of tourism and we've discussed the fact that the Min ister and his department has got to have, and the Min ister has made the statement a numb er of times himself, a very aggressive marketing program in the area of tourism. We have had a deficit in tourism in the Province of Manitoba for the past 10 years.

This deficit has also applied in other areas of Canada and now with the dollar dif ference between the American and the Canadian dollar, if there was ever a golden opportunity for Canadians to take advantage of tourism in Canada, now is the time that we should be increasing our marketing concepts and hopefully balancing and writing this deficit that we have in tourism.

With the new Economic Development Agreement that has been signed as of this morning between the Manitoba Minister and his federal counterpart, hopefully we're going to have some major programs in the next five-year period that are going to attract tourists to Manitoba.

The new tourism agreement has emphasis on major components and my earlier statements this afternoon was I hope that Manitobans can come up with the initiative and the private dollars so that people that are entrepreneurs within the Province of Manitoba will be able to take advantage of this new agreement that has just been released to the public and hopefully the many programs for devel opment will take place over the next five-year period.

We, this evening, have spent a great deal of time on the Horse Racing Commission and it, In my 10 years time, has likely has the best and the most thorough examination tonight that it's ever had in a 10-year period; and I feel that it was justified, because as I said in my remarks that the Horse Racing Commission, unfortu nately, the Premier has had three different Ministers in place looking after this Commission.

The people in the area of tourism say this, that the Ministers get moved from this portfolio so frequently and that they just get to know a Minister and he just starts to get a handle on it and then he's replaced by someone else. Well, the Horse Racing Commission has had three separate Ministers; it's had three separate chairmen and three separate Supervisors of Racing, so it has gone through some growing pains in the past four-year period.

I feel that the inc reased expens es tha t the Commission has within its budget, in order to be justified, the Commission is going to have to work doubly hard to see that and to hopefuly smooth over some of the difficulties that has faced the horse racing Industry in the past four or five year period.

As I said to the Minister in my suggestion earlier this evening, the public feels that it should be protected and my suggestion that a detachment of skilled police personnel at the track hopefully will be investigated by the Horse Racing Commission in Conjunction with the Winnipeg Police Commis sion and the police chief and that Manitobans will get that benefit of having a skilled police officer who knows the horse racing industry and is assigned to the track on a permanent basis, that something along those lines could happen in the near future.

The Mi nister has undertaken certain obligations during our examination of his Estimates.

He is going to check with the Horse Racing Commission regarding the racing impact study to see If it can be released to myself; and as I said to him, that if there are some matters dealing with individuals there, that I certainly have no objection to them being erased from the impact study, but if those matters can be erased from the Impact study, hopefully the Minister will see no reason why a copy of the study can't be tu rned over to myself, because the only way that both the Minister and myself can understand the Horse Racing Commission and the activities that take place in the horse racing industry is to have a better knowledge of what's going on.

If this Impact study went into such details as to what lays ahead for horse racing in Manitoba, I think that it's a study that should be read by both the Mi nister and myself if it would be beneficial to horse racing. The Minister also undertook to supply myself with some detailed information regarding the Destination Manitoba grants that have been passed this evening and the other day undertook to find out for me some detail regarding the Winnipeg Core Area Initiative payments information. In closing, Mr.

Chairman, If the Minister would, over the next few days or few weeks, come through with those last three requests that I have made, I think we have taken twice the time this year to do this department's Estimates and I know that I personally 1908

MondeJ, 13 ... , 1985 know the department far better than I did Thursday morning of last week. I think that we have had an excellent examination of the Minister's Estimates. I thank him for the answers that he has given us to date and I look forward to receiving the ones that he has undertaken to supply me in the future. HON. J. STORIE: I appreciate the member's comments. I think the review of the Horse Racing Commission was thorough.

I can say, unabashedly, that I'm extremely interested in the Horse Racing Commission and the industry and have reviewed a numb er of the problems that have been vetted through the media and as in most cases where there is smoke, there is some fire. I've said previously that there is no major blaze under way and that there are no insurmountable problems and that we're working in a co-operative way to deal with those problems that exist. I feel that the last number of years have been trying, but that we're in a very good position.

We have a Commission that has been co-operative, is seen to be co-operative by the vast majority of people involved in the industry, and we are taking steps to involve people at all levels so that we have a good working relationship with all the groups involved. I believe that the statistics that I quoted earlier show pretty clearly that we're on the right track, if you'll forgive the pun. The member's comments about Small Business and Tourism, I think he, essentially, recapitulated his earlier comments and concerns.

I have said and maintained and continue to maintain that the small business sector is out there doing its usual fine job investing in the province despite the doom-and-gloom scenario that is painted by some. I think that the fact that there is significant increase in capital investment coming to the province through out business people shows that confidence exists. We believe and the member quite rightly pointed out that we discussed a number of issues relating to taxation and regulation.

We believe that there has to be a balance, that there is room for progressive legislation dealing with the concerns of working people, whether it be with pensions or safety. We believe that there is also room for a government to support economic development. As the member knows we have gone through a pretty extensive list of the kinds of programs that are available through business development to support that development. There has to be a balance.

No one group can have their concerns and their interests receive preferential treatment, if you will; that there has to be a balance and that I'm convinced and I believe that I can sit down with any group of people and show them that this government and this department - this government I should say; we'll leave the department out of it for the moment - has deliv ered a relatively balanced set of both legislation and programs dealing with individual human concerns and dealing with the very real concerns of small business.

I know there are those strident outspoken individuals in the community who tend to see things, in my opinion, in a rather one-sided way. I find it intriguing, if not frustrating, that we can intr oduce programs such as Development Agreements and Venture Capital and Feasibility Assistance and Manufacturing Tax Credits, all of which receive hearty support from business groups and, yet, when we introduce legislation regulations, which are designed to support and protect working people, those are deemed to be unnecessary and undesirable.

We believe that overall that balanced approach is supported by the majority of Manitobans, be they businessmen or working people. We believe that, and I feel - this perhaps is intuition and my own perception - that there is a growing confidence, a growing recognition that Manitoba has weathered the economic storm relatively unscathed.

I think that we're poised because of a lot of the major developments that are occurring around us and because of the efforts of the government with respect to its co-operative dealings with the Federal Government and other levels of government, that we're poised on a moment of growth, that small business can and will flourish over the coming months. I think it's a positive message and as the member can quite clearly see, I'm not wearing my rose­ coloured glasses tonight.

I think my perception is based on objective substantiatable facts that come from Statistics Canada and the prognostications of other eminently qualfied groups.

I find that this department poses a particular challenge and one of the challenges, and the member is perfectly aware of it, is to create that sense of confidence to dispell some of the myths that fly from room to room and from person to person in the province that aren't substantiated by any facts, that are myths and rumour­ mongering and disincentives to the real business that we all want to occur and that is investment in the economy and growth in the number of jobs and a stable economy for our province and for the people who habit it.

I would finally like to say that I believe the member has given the department a fair ahd thorough airing. I certainly appreciate his persistence and his desire to understand the workings of this department. I think it's been a, while formidable process, one that has been at the same time amicable. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)- pass; Resolution 22: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $823,600 for Business Development and Tourism for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1986-p ass. What's the pleasure of the committee? HON. J. STORIE: Committee rise. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Committee rise and go home. SUPPLY - ENVIRONMENT AND WORKPLACE SAFETY AND HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee, come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health, Item 2.(a)

(1) Environmental Management, Environmental Control Services: Salaries - the Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr. Chairman, there are a couple things here that we wanted to discuss concerning the water pollution control operation. Usually when I start speaking everybody leaves, but it's nice when they come walking in. 1909

llendlly, 13 MaJ, 1815 Okay, let's get down to it. The water pollution control operation which protects the aquatic ecosystem and ground water, can the Honourable Minister advise whether there has been any problems or has the problem been corrected out at Portage la Prairie? lt seems to me that a year ago there was some problem of the pollution of wells around the Portage dump. Can the Honourable Minister bring us up-to­ date? MA. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minis ter. HON. G. LECUYEA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yes indeed, the problem the member refers to, that was part of the landfill site surveys that were conducted throughout the Province of Manitoba. lt was part of a Canada-Manitoba study that went on for a three-year period which narrowed down the number of landfill . sites; and those sites with problems, one of those indeed was the Portage landfill site, and the problem the member refers to has to do with the fact , In particul ar, there were traces of arsenic found in the water near the Portage landfill site.

That Indeed has not been completely resolved, and it will not be completely resolved to the satisfa ction of everybody until Portage has a new landfill site. They're nearing the end of the use of the Portage landfill site. There is also potentially legal impli cations or court cases that might arise as a result of that particular one. I don't want to go in too much detail In reference to that, but I think it's safe to say we know there is a limited usefulness left of that landfill site. We have indeed made that known to the Portage Council for some time now.

We are pressing them to indeed seek a new landflll site to avoid increasing the potential harmful effects tha t have been detected at that particular site, but the problems could reoccur if no other landfill site is chosen. MA. A. KOYNATS: Well, I'd like to proceed just a little bit further, Mr.

Minister, concerning this particular item, not just the Portage area, but the water pollution control that you have set up throughout the whole of the province, I think, includin g the Western Equine Encephalitis Monitoring Program which I think comes under this particular program also and the mosquito control - in the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health, in your annual report. Possibly I ski pped a page but if the Honourable Minister wishes me to speak on that at a dif ferent location, I'd be happy to do so. Would you rather that I ask questions on that at a different heading? HON. G.

LECUYEA: Mr. Chairman, I have no problems of the honourable member asking questions having to do with water pollution anywhere in this particular area, except that it would be very dif ficult for me to answer unless the member makes it a little more specific what he's dealing with, because we could deal with water pollution from very many standpoints and very many locations.

The department is monitoring water quality for a variety of reasons, and there has been a variety of projects for which water has been monitored throughout the Province of Manitoba, whether it's for mercury in the North, whether it's for radiation in Lac du Bonnet or wells in that area, whether it's for pesticides in a variety of streams or lack of oxygen in a numb er of other streams. I could go on and name a variety of other sources of contaminants and sources of water, whether it's sewage effl uents in a number of streams as well.

So I have no problems as long as the member will help out in making a little more specific what his questions are about. MA. A. KOYNATS: I think, to the Honourable Minister, we could cover that under the Clean Environment Commission where lt will be under mosquito control and water going Into the Red River from the City of Winnipeg and things of that nature. So that will come under the Clean Environment Commission, which Is Item 3. But in the meantime, when we talk about water pollution control, I have a letter here from a chap that lives out in the Rural Municipality of St.

Andrews. lt's Order No. 1050 of the Clean Environment Commission concerning the lagoon site at the Village of Dunnottar. I have been involved with it for quite some time, and I know the Minister has, and I know the Minister of Housing, I believe, the Member for Gimli, has been involved with that. lt s eems legitimate in the request that the people out there who have complained about it and have signed this form, Mrs. Marie Tessier and Mr.

Joseph Mohan have got a legitimate request in the manner in which this lan dfill site is being operated. lt's not operated on a 24-hour basis and they feel their drinking supply could be cOntaminated. I was just wondering whether the Honourable Minister can advise whether his department has kept a close watch on the drinking supply, the water supply in the area, whether it's been kept pure or whether there has been any damage done to the wells in the area. Can the Honourable Minister advise? HON. G. LECUYEA: First of all, of course, the question of lagoons is one that comes under regulation.

In particul ar, this one comes, as the member has Indicated, under Clean Environment Commission Order 1050 on September 18 , 1984. The order specified discharge limits, discharge routes arid monitoring of groundwater. The member is correct. There are some people who did appeal that. In fact, the town appealed it as well, so both sides had appealed this particular Clean Environment Commission order.

We reviewed that order for a lengthy period of time because I wanted to be sat isfied that the new lagoon for itself met all of the requirements of the regulation in terms of how the sides and bottoms of that lagoon would be properly lined with clay soils as required under the regulation, that the effluents would be discharged in accordance with the regulation at times specified in the order, etc.

Eventually after repeated inspections, and we waited until the snow cover was removed from the ground so that we could carry out inspections to ascertain whether some of the complaints raised by the people appealing the order were correct or wrong, and we are satisfied that the Clean Environment Commission order is correct. I have dismi ssed the appeals on all sides. 1910

Monday, 13 May, 1985 In fact, since that has been done prior to carrying on with that final step, I was in touch with both the people of the town council and the residents who had appealed. I believe they would have received copies of the fact that the appeals have been dismissed. We have not heard of them since. I gather they are satisfied. Technical staff in the Environment Division certainly have been able to ascertain that it did indeed meet all the regulations - it's a new lagoon, of course - and we are satisfied that it was constructed in the manner which is in compliance with the regulations.

Although lagoons are a source of problems for somebody, obviously, we are satisfied that it will not create any undue problems for any of the residents in the area. We hope in the future perhaps when towns do decide that they do have to build a new lagoon or they decide they want to place a lagoon in a particular location, that they would get in touch with our department prior to doing that to make sure that they get the best advice possible in terms of where to locate the lagoon to meet the requirements as well as to avoid problems with residents in the area.

As far as this particular one is concerned, I think there is nothing else I can add on it except to say that the problems that were voiced, copies of which the member got, were indeed concerns that the citizens raised and I think they have a right to do so. I think it's in order that they should express their concerns to make sure th at the se hav e been taken due consideration of. In fact, for the member's information, one of the things we insisted that remain as part of that order was the monitoring process that was part of the order which the town wanted removed.

I think the citizens were as much concerned with the fact that the town was appealing and that we might decide to go, or to vary the order to meet the town's requirements of removing the monitoring mechanisms. So these were left in as part of the order, and hopefully it meets all of the citizens in the area's concerns. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the Honourable Minister, this is kind of a unique situation. I have been involved with it somewhat near the beginning.

Wh at I couldn't understand was the route that the effluent, after it was treated, from the lagoon to the lake, which was allegedly to be purified enough so that it could be dumped right into the lake, but the route was the long way around, and I couldn't understand, you know, why it was decided to go the long way around when there was a shorter route to the lake. lt wouldn't have required the possibility of contaminating as many wells as there is the possibility that it would contaminate. So that's the problem, Mr. Minister. In addition to that, Mr.

Minister, the people in the area that were complaining, not the town council. but the people in the area that were complaining were complaining because there were pesticide tins that were placed into the dump which is adjacent to the lagoon, these pesticide tins allegedly weren't treated properly and were contaminating the area also. I have somewhat proof, because they brought me In some pictures to show that what I'm saying is true and that there is the possibility of the water supply in the area being contaminated because of some of the 1911 pesticide tins that were put Into the dump and covered over.

So I just want the Honourable Minister to be aware of it. I'm not making any accusations, but the town council supported a longer route to the lake, because it didn't affect them; it wasn't In their backyard, so to speak, Mr. Minister. HON. G.

LECUYER: The route that was suggested by the Clean Environment Commission, although Indeed a little bit longer route than a shorter route which was possible, the reason for that, the member should know, was that to follow the shorter route would have meant a great deal more problem for a lot more people. lt would have meant as well that the lagoon would then have been emptying into an area of beaches along the Lake Winnipeg where there are a lot of cottages, etc. So it would have created a problem to a lot more people. So the longer route - I'm not aware that the town objected to that route at all.

In fact, to satisfy perhaps some of the citizens' complaints, we would have had to go a much longer route yet at, of course, a lot more costs. I'm not so sure that, from an engineering standpoint, there probably would have been additional costs to change the grading of some of the ditches because of the natural gravity flow towards the lake. So it will still, after receiving some treatment in the lagoon, then when it is released it's considered rather safe effluent that will also follow a route which will not affect the drinking supplies of the citizens in the area.

Just to be on the safe side of that, the Clean Environment Commission required that there be some monitoring wells established in the areas at various locations around that lagoon site to ascertain that if that should occur remedial action can be undertaken quickly so that the wells would not become contaminated. MR. A. KOVNATS: That satisfies me, Mr. Minister, as long as I'm assured that there is an ongoing monitoring of the area, but I was led to believe that the effluent would have to be transported or it would have to flow right next to a road.

I didn't know the consequences of that - the ditch beside the road - rather than a ditch direct to the lake even though it went by some of the cottages. I don't think that either one of them would have been a better one or a worse one, but through somebody's wisdom they decided to go the long way around. Can the Honourable Minister advise, concerning the water supply, has there been any danger or any testing at the dump in Thompson, Manitoba? About a year ago. we had a transformer dumped out there with nobody knowing. lt was found out and it was picked up and allegedly cleaned up.

Can the Honourable Minister advise whether this transformer caused any contamination, and whether in fact, if there was any contamination, who picked it up? Is the Honourable Minister aware of who dumped the transformer into the dump in the first place? Has the cost been transferred back to that person or company? HON. G. LECUYER: The member raises one that goes back a fairly long time ago. My memory may not serve me as correctly as 1. would like to on this particular

Monday, 13 May, 1985 one. I do remember that it occurred and the member raised it in the House, I believe, at that time. I know that the oils of that transformer were tested, and they were found to be below the 50 parts per million, which, according to the PCB guidelines or the federal guidelines on this, it is not considered a PCB transformer in that it has levels of PCB that are below the 50 parts per million, which is a very minute trace amount, and is considered to be suitable for landfill at that level.

If my memory serves me correct, I believe the transformer, as added precaution, was emptied, and the oils from that transformer were not placed in the landfill, but I will have to review that one to make sure that is correct. The soils, as well, were tested in the area to determine whether there was any in the soil in the landfill site of a greater amount than 50 parts per million. As well, the route that was taken to take that transformer to the landfill site was also checked to determ ine the same thing.

So as far as what was done with the oils from that transformer, I would have to go back into detailed information, which I don't have available now, but I can get for the mem ber. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the Honourable Minister, I had spent some time in Thompson in 1963, and I was certainly aware of it. The Honourable Member for Thompson had also mentioned it at the time, and it upset us all because it was the lack of control of dumping some of these PCB materials into dumps. it was just the lack of control, and we wanted to make sure that it didn't happ en on a regular basis.

If somebody was doing it on purpose, because I would think that somebody who was dumping a transformer would certainly know that it was Illegal to do so. Anyway, can the Honourable Minister advise whether there has been any testing up in the Thompson area In the last year, and what is the routing in testing landfill sites and dumps on a regular basis? Is there a regular routine the government follows In testing these, or just when they feel like it, or when they get a complaint? HON. G. LECUYER: I did refer earlier to the program of monitoring landfill sites in Manitoba.

Many of the still active landflll sites and a number of no longer active - I believe there were some 530 active landfill sites that were part of the inventory. There were some 750 altogether. The results of that study indicated that there were some problem landfill sites, which were the subject of a further phase of that study for a more in-depth analysis and monitoring. That was further narrowed down to a small number, a dozen approximately, 11, I believe it is, landfill sites which we are continuing to monitor and to assess. Some of those communities have been advised to seek other landfill sites.

The purpose of the whole study was to determine basically which were the landfili site problems so that we could go on to keep a closer watch and a closer monitoring approach at those sites that were a problem area. Obviously, we cannot routinely on an annual basis go back over the 750-odd landfill sites if there are no identified problems, especially if they're no longer in use and they don't create any source of problems.

As well as that, of course, there are sometimes complaints that are brought in, because even though a landfill site may not have been a problem the previous year, all of a sudden there could be someone who goes to one of these landfills and dumps substances that he's not supposed to dump. Our staff goes in to assess whether there is a problem that has to be dealt with, and then discusses and deals with the community in regard to those specifics.

But as far as the ongoing monitoring system, the wells that are put in place, for instance, in the Brandon landfill sites to determine the problem with methane gas; for instance, in the Portage landflll site in regard to the arsenic that was present in there. There are a few others. The one In Virden is one where there Is considered to be a problem landfill site. There are a few others. So we're following and continuing to monitor and evaluate those sites on a very close basis, and interacting with the communities In those areas. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Getting a little closer to home, I know it's a big job because there are all kinds of landfill sites and all kinds of garbage dumps that have been covered over. You really don't expect the problems that do occur. For instance, we have one just down Laglmodlere Boulevard where there was a methane gas problem. There were buildings built right over on top of it, and the problem still exists. lt's still there. The buildings haven't been used for years. A MEMBER: The gas just keeps coming. MR. A. KOVNATS: The gas just keeps coming Is right.

There has got to be some way of bringing it to a head so we don't have to worry about it. One day there's going to be a big bloody explosion and somebody's going to get hurt. I don't want to be like Chicken Little and cause alarm, but it could happen. We had an explosion downtown, a different matter altogether, but it does happen. You can't say that it just doesn't happen. What are we doing to correct this situation? I know it's in the City of Winnipeg and you can't just pass it off and say it's their responsibility.

I believe it's the responsibility of the Pr<>vinclal Government, not just this one over here down Lagimodlere Bou levard, throughout the province, other garbage dumps because it's going to blow up and it's going to blow up in the Hono