British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, March 5, 2009 (38th Parliament, 5th Session) (H0305pm-07) (H0305pm 07)

H0305pm-07

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session, 38th Parliament o FFicial rePort o F Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari So FF, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Thursday, March 5, 2009 Afternoon Sitting Volume 39, Number 7

Pro Vince o F britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l. Point, obc Fifth Session, 38th Parliament SPeaker o F the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil ......................................................................................................h on. Gordon c ampbell Minister of State for intergovernmental r elations ...........................................................................................................h on.

Joan Mcintyre Deputy Premier and Minister of education and Minister r esponsible for early l earning and l iteracy .........................................................................................h on. Shirley bond Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation .................................................................................................. h on. Michael de Jong Minister of a dvanced e ducation and l abour Market Development ............................................................................. h on.

Murray c oell Minister of a griculture and l ands ..................................................................................................................................... h on. r on c antelon a ttorney General and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism .......................................................................... h on.

Wally o ppal, Qc Minister of c hildren and Family Development ..........................................................................................................h on. t om c hristensen Minister of State for c hildcare ................................................................................................................................................. h on. l inda r eid Minister of c ommunity Development ............................................................................................................................. h on. k evin k rueger Minister of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources .....................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Minister of State for Mining ................................................................................................................................................ h on.

Gordon h ogg Minister of environment and Minister r esponsible for c limate a ction .......................................................................h on. barry Penner Minister of Finance and Minister r esponsible for the o lympics .................................................................................. h on. c olin h ansen Minister of Forests and r ange ....................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Pat bell Minister of h ealth Services ................................................................................................................................................h on. George a bbott Minister of h ealthy l iving and Sport .....................................................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of h ousing and Social Development .................................................................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of l abour and citizens' Services ................................................................................................................................ h on. iain black Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .........................................................................................................h on.

John van Dongen Minister of Small business, t echnology and e conomic Development and Minister r esponsible for the a sia-Pacific initiative .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of t ourism, c ulture and the a rts ...........................................................................................................................h on. bill bennett Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ...................................................................................................................h on. k evin Falcon leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ...................................................................................................................................................c arole James Deputy Speaker ..............................................................................................................................................................................Sindi h awkins Deputy Speaker .....................................................................................................................................................................k atherine Whittred a ssistant Deputy Speaker ...............................................................................................................................................................Sue h ammell Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole .......................................................................................................................................... h arry bloy c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................................. craig h.

James c lerk a ssistant and c ommittee c lerk .................................................................................................................................... k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms .................................................................................................................................................................................

Gary l enz Director, h ansard Services ............................................................................................................................................................Jo-a nne k ern l egislative l ibrarian ............................................................................................................................................................................ Jane t aylor l egislative c omptroller .......................................................................................................................................................................

Dan a rbic

alP habetical liS t o F MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................Penticton–o kanagan Valley bell, h on.

Pat (l) ...............................................................Prince George n orth bennett, h on. bill (l) ...................................................................e ast k ootenay black, h on. iain (l) ......................................................Port Moody–Westwood bloy, h arry (l) ....................................................................................burquitlam bond, h on. Shirley (l) ....................................Prince George–Mount r obson brar, Jagrup (nDP) .....................................................Surrey–Panorama r idge c ampbell, h on.

Gordon (l) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey c antelon, h on. r on (l) ......................................................n anaimo-Parksville c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c hristensen, h on. t om (l) ..................................................o kanagan-Vernon c hudnovsky, Dave (nDP) ........................................... Vancouver-kensington c oell, h on.

Murray (l) ....................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ............................................Fort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) ...........................................West kootenay–b oundary c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c ubberley, David (nDP) ..............................................................Saanich South de Jong, h on.

Michael (l) ................................... a bbotsford–Mount l ehman Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway e vans, c orky (nDP) ..................................................................n elson-creston Falcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale Farnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................. Port c oquitlam–b urke Mountain Fleming, r ob (nDP) ................................................................

Victoria-h illside Fraser, Scott (nDP) ...............................................................a lberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, h on. c olin (l) .................................................. Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission h awkins, Sindi (l) ..................................................................k elowna-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ..................................................... Vancouver-burrard h ogg, h on. Gordon (l) ......................................................

Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca h orning, a l (l) .............................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry ilich, o lga (l) .......................................................................... r ichmond c entre James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill Jarvis, Daniel (l) .................................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ............................................e squimalt-Metchosin k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, h on. k evin (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ali, h arry (nDP) ........................................................................... Y ale-lillooet l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) ....................................................... Peace r iver South l es, John (l) ............................................................................c hilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke McGinn, Jenn (nDP) .........................................................

Vancouver-Fairview Mcintyre, h on. Joan (l) ........................................ West Vancouver–Garibaldi Mack ay, Dennis (l) ....................................................... bulkley Valley–Stikine n uraney, John (l) .............................................................. burnaby-Willingdon o ppal, h on. Wally, Qc (l) ........................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, hon. barry (l) .............................................................c hilliwack-k ent Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Puchmayr, c huck (nDP) .......................................................n ew Westminster r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, h on. l inda (l) ...................................................................r ichmond e ast r ichmond, c laude (l) .........................................................................k amloops r oddick, Valerie (l) ..........................................................................Delta South r outley, Doug (nDP) ......................................................c owichan-l adysmith r ustad, John (l) .......................................................... Prince George–omineca Sather, Michael (nDP) .........................................

Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ................................... Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (nDP) ...................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, r ick (l) .................................................................. o kanagan-Westside t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, h on.

John (l) ............................................a bbotsford-c layburn Whittred, k atherine (l) ........................................ n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Wyse, c harlie (nDP) ...................................................................c ariboo South Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant .............................................................................................. c omox Valley Vacant .......................................................................................Peace r iver n orth Vacant ....................................................................................

Vancouver-l angara liS t o F MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-c layburn .................................................... h on. John van Dongen a bbotsford–Mount l ehman ...........................................h on. Michael de Jong a lberni-Qualicum .............................................................................

Scott Fraser bulkley Valley–Stikine ...............................................................Dennis Mack ay burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee burnaby-e dmonds ..........................................................................r aj c houhan burnaby-Willingdon .....................................................................

John n uraney burquitlam .......................................................................................... h arry bloy c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c ariboo South................................................................................. c harlie Wyse c hilliwack-k ent.....................................................................h on. barry Penner c hilliwack-Sumas ..................................................................................

John l es c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley..............................................................................................Vacant c oquitlam-Maillardville............................................................... Diane Thorne c owichan-l adysmith ...................................................................

Doug r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South..................................................................................Valerie r oddick e ast k ootenay .......................................................................... h on. bill bennett e squimalt-Metchosin .........................................................Maurine k aragianis Fort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman k amloops ................................................................................c laude r ichmond k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on. k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ................................................................... a l h orning k elowna-Mission .........................................................................Sindi h awkins l angley.......................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca ....................................................................John h organ Maple r idge–Mission ....................................................................r andy h awes Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo-Parksville .............................................................h on. r on c antelon n elson-creston ................................................................................ c orky evans n ew Westminster .................................................................... c huck Puchmayr n orth c oast.......................................................................................

Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ............................................... k atherine Whittred n orth Vancouver–Seymour ...........................................................

Daniel Jarvis o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong o kanagan-Vernon ..........................................................h on. t om c hristensen o kanagan-Westside .........................................................................r ick Thorpe Peace r iver n orth ......................................................................................Vacant Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton–o kanagan Valley................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam–b urke Mountain ...........................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood .............................................................h on. iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George n orth .......................................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Mount r obson ............................................h on. Shirley bond Prince George–omineca ................................................................. John r ustad r ichmond c entre ................................................................................. o lga ilich r ichmond e ast ..........................................................................h on. l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands ........................................... h on.

Murray c oell Saanich South ........................................................................... David c ubberley Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey–Panorama r idge ...................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey-t ynehead ...........................................................................

Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ............................................................. h on. Gordon h ogg Vancouver-burrard ....................................................................Spencer h erbert Vancouver-Fairview .......................................................................Jenn McGinn Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................h on.

Wally o ppal, Qc Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington ........................................................David c hudnovsky Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara ....................................................................................Vacant Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ......................................... Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey .................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Vancouver-Quilchena ..........................................................h on. c olin h ansen Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria-h illside ..............................................................................r ob Fleming West kootenay–b oundary ........................................................ k atrine c onroy West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................h on.

Joan Mcintyre Y ale-lillooet ......................................................................................... h arry l ali Party Standings: l iberal 42; n ew Democratic 34; Vacant 3

CONTENTS Thursday, March 5, 2009 a fternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Statements .............................................................................................................................................................................. 14251 Messages for Daniel Jarvis h on. l. r eid M. Farnworth Mr. Speaker (h on. b. barisoff) h on.

M. de Jong introductions by Members ................................................................................................................................................... 14251 Statements .............................................................................................................................................................................. 14251 Messages for Daniel Jarvis J. n uraney introductions by Members ................................................................................................................................................... 14251 Statements .............................................................................................................................................................................. 14252 Messages for Daniel Jarvis ho n. b.

Penner introductions by Members ................................................................................................................................................... 14252 introduction and First r eading of bills .............................................................................................................................. 14252 c onsumer Protection in t icket Sales a ct, 2009 (bill M202) S. h erbert Statements (Standing order 25 b) ........................................................................................................................................ 14253 burnaby Partners in Seniors Wellness r . c houhan bonsor Seniors Society J. n uraney Violence against women c. t revena 70th anniversary of n orth Shore n eighbourhood h ouse k.

Whittre d n isga'a new year celebration r . a ustin Seismic upgrade of West Vancouver Secondary School r . Sultan oral Questions ....................................................................................................................................................................... 14255 Government action on homelessness J. kwan h on. r . c oleman D. c hudnovsky Minimum wage k. c onroy h on. r . c oleman r egulation of septic systems b. Simpson h on. M. Polak a. Dix Future of h armac mill l. k rog h on. P . bell D. r outley

Second r eading of bills ........................................................................................................................................................ 14260 Supply a ct (n o. 1), 2009 (bill 5) (continued) b. r alston l. k rog n. Macdonald J. h organ M. Farnworth h. b ains S. Simpson c. t revena S. h erbert M. k aragianis

14251 thurSD a Y , March 5, 2009 The h ouse met at 1:36 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Statements MeSSa GeS For Daniel Jar ViS Mr. Speaker: h on. Members, the Minister of State for c hildcare has a special introduction, i think. Hon. L. Reid: t oday i would ask every member of this h ouse to join with me in wishing the member for n orth Vancouver–Seymour the speediest recovery pos- sible. h e's actually watching us as we speak.

We were indeed wondering if this is the first time he might have been watching us on television, because the reality is that he is always here. h e loves this place. h e continues to serve this province with, i think, incredible energy and esteem. i would ask the h ouse to join and wish him the speediest recovery possible. [a pplause.] M. Farnworth: Joining with the minister over the way, on this side of the h ouse we'd just like to let the member for n orth Vancouver–Seymour know that having served with him since 1991, we really do miss your heckles in question period. Mr.

Speaker: i'm sure the member for n orth V ancouver–Seymour…. We all wish him the very, very best. i'm sure that it won't be long, and he'll be back sitting in his chair doing the heckling that he's so primed for. Hon. M. de Jong: i for one am appalled at the length he would go to, to solicit a standing ovation in this chamber, but i, too, would wish him well. Introductions by Members Hon. M. de Jong: a great day here at the l egislature.

The k lahoose First n ation, represented by c hief k en brown, c ouncillor k athy Francis, c ouncillor Jessie l ouie and e lder n orman h arry, along with drummers, dancers, singers and 40 members of the community are here and were here earlier when we signed a his- toric incremental treaty agreement. i know that all members of the h ouse would want to commemorate the importance of that occasion and welcome them here to this chamber. K.

Conroy: Y esterday one of our members had leave all day, and i believed when i granted him this leave, he had less than a stellar reason for the leave. i believe he was trying to avoid just this. So belatedly, i would like to wish the member for burnaby-e dmonds a very happy 60th birthday. J. Les: it's a great pleasure for me this afternoon to introduce to members of the h ouse Wade and Maureen Grant, who join us today. Just a few years ago Wade was my executive assistant, and it was during the time he worked here that he married Maureen.

They're joined today by their son e li as well, who is now six months old, and a very handsome and hale and hearty- looking fellow. Since his time here Wade has gone on to bigger and better things. h e is now the assistant general manager for the aboriginal pavilion at the 2010 o lympic and Paralympic Games. Would all members of the h ouse join me in making Wade, Maureen and eli very welcome. [1340] D.

Cubberley: in the gallery with us today are 36 grades 10 and 11 social studies students from c laremont Secondary School, high on the ridge in sunny c ordova bay in Saanich, accompanied by their teacher David Gardner and escorted by Jenny n ewman and William Moore. Will the h ouse please join me in making them welcome today. Statements MeSSa GeS For Daniel Jar ViS J. Nuraney: l et me begin by wishing the member for n orth Vancouver–Seymour a happy and speedy recov- ery. i want to assure him that i'm keeping his desk clean and well dusted. c ome back. We need you. Introductions by Members J.

Nuraney: it's a great pleasure for me to introduce to you a group that is here with us in the l egislature, a group that i'm really proud of. They are the bonsor Seniors. This group is represented here today by Mary h orton, brenda Felker, Monica r obidoux, a lice Mcc ann, r alph George, t erry Jeffares, inga n ielsen, h arvey l ee, k en c ouch, c hris h ildred, Vic Jones, Sam n aicker, Peter t amilin, a lbert l um, Saundra k eayes, a l Poole, beverley o lsen, k eith h arris and Joyce Smith. i ask the h ouse to please join me in making them feel very welcome. D.

Routley: c ould the h ouse help me welcome l es h illiard. l es is the financial secretary of l ocal 8 of the PPWc and one of the employee-owners of harmac mill. Hon. M. Polak: it gives me a great deal of pleas- ure to introduce members from the b.c. Paraplegic a ssociation today: Melanie crombie, executive director;

british c olumbia Debates14252 t hursday, March 5, 2009 l inda a nnis, director of marketing and development; and Paralympic athletes Paul Gauthier, Daniel Wesley and Gary c ormack. They were all here today hosting a Vision Without barriers luncheon for all members of the l egislature. Would the h ouse please make them very welcome. N. Simons: it is my pleasure and actually my honour to introduce two friends from the constituency of Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast. Sulsolwek, also known as n ancy Mitchell, is here. She was participating in the ceremony that honours the achievement of the k lahoose people.

With her was t lex-tan, also known as William Mitchell — both of whom i have the pleasure to hear at ceremonies in my riding and other places as well.

Their voices are beauti- ful, and they resonate with the honour of their people. i'd like to make them most welcome in this house. i'd also like to welcome the people from k lahoose territory who have travelled here, and i wish them safe travels. i would like to point out that in question period, sometimes we go at each other, and you'll notice that tempers flare and the words are sharp. but you can see by our recognition of the member for burnaby-e dmonds' birthday and my friend from n orth Vancouver–Seymour that we deal with each other with civility and friendship outside this h ouse. i just wanted to make sure they know that.

Statements MeSSa GeS For Daniel Jar ViS Hon. B. Penner: l ike a number of other members, i would like to extend my best wishes to the member for n orth Vancouver–Seymour. Dan, i understand that you're feeling better, but i'm worried that you won't feel better after watching what happens here. Y ou may want to get some advice from your doctor before you continue to watch. Dan is affectionately known as Dapper Dan, among other things. Dan, i hope you approve of my new suit, courtesy of my wife. i took her advice. Introductions by Members R. Chouhan: i would also like to welcome my friends from bonsor Seniors.

The group is also known as burnaby Partners in Seniors Wellness. in addition, i would like to welcome Mr. Sav Dhaliwal, councillor and chair of the burnaby Parks, r ecreation and c ultural c ommission. Please join me to welcome all. R. Hawes: i just want to add something to what the Minister of h ealthy l iving and Sport had to say with respect to the Paralympians that we have here in the gallery. [1345] Mr.

Paul Gauthier will be competing for us in 2010 in bocce. h e has brought home gold and bronze medals. h e won't be in 2010, but he will be in the next o lympics. h e's brought home gold and bronze from the beijing o lympics. Gary c ormack has numerous medals, including a gold medal at t orino, and he will be curling for us in 2010. Daniel Wesley is now coaching but has won numerous medals, including gold at both the Summer o lympics and the Winter Paralympic Games.

We really do owe a huge amount of respect and gratitude to these athletes for representing us. a s such, i would ask the h ouse to truly recognize these fine people. L. Krog: i might say that the endorsement of the Minister of environment's suit might be the only kind- ness he'll get from the h ouse today. i'm delighted to introduce to the h ouse today some- one who's been here many times before, and that's a rnie bercov, the president of PPWc l ocal 8 from n anaimo. Would the house please make him welcome. C.

Trevena: The Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation recognized the importance of com- munity at today's signing ceremony with the k lahoose, and i'd like to echo that. i'd also like to recognize the importance of the council in the negotiations, in par - ticular k athy Francis, the former chief councillor treaty negotiator, who has spent, as she says, her whole adult life on this. k athy is a woman of true integrity, honesty and com- mitment. it's a privilege to know her and to work with her when the opportunity and the occasion arises. k athy is in the gallery along with members of the k lahoose First n ation and her husband, h ardy. a gain, i would like the h ouse to make them all very welcome.

Introduction and First Reading of Bills c onS u Mer Protection in ticket SaleS a ct, 2009 S. h erbert presented a bill intituled c onsumer Protection in t icket Sales a ct, 2009. S. Herbert: t oday i move a bill entitled c onsumer Protection in t icket Sales a ct, 2009, be introduced and read a first time now. i bring this bill to the h ouse as british c olumbians want the predatory practices of large ticket resellers like t icketmaster and its t icketsn ow website to stop. We've seen price gouging which can jack prices up 700 percent or more for concerts or sports games.

This puts these events out of reach of average folks and many of us, and

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, March 5, 2009 14253 it is unfair. When one company can buy up all the tickets and then resell them for massive profit, we know some- thing has to change. With this bill, the price on the ticket will be the price you pay. n o more so-called convenience fees or massive inflation in prices. This bill will bring us into line with ontario, Manitoba and a lberta, and i ask all members of this h ouse for their support. i move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting after today. Mr. Speaker: First we've got to do the first reading.

Motion approved. S. Herbert: i move second reading, and people could do the third, too, if they like. Maybe the a ttorney General will join me. i would like to move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of this h ouse. bill M202, c onsumer Protection in t icket Sales a ct, 2009, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the h ouse after today. Statements (Standing Order 25b) burnabY P artnerS in SeniorS WellneSS R.

Chouhan: it gives me great pleasure to rise today to talk about a great program in burnaby.

The program is the burnaby Partners in Seniors Wellness. it has pro- vided health and wellness benefits to our seniors for over 20 years. it is a unique and innovative program and offers a cost savings to the health care system. it operates in the four burnaby seniors centres. e very year it provides over 13,000 therapeutic, counselling and educational services, over 3,500 blood pressure monitor- ing services, foot care, weight control, massage therapy, exercise, fall prevention and housing information. [1350] it creates age-friendly communities. it mobilizes and supports volunteerism, and it promotes healthy living.

This program is an excellent example of the kind of collaborative effort that is needed to help keep seniors healthy and out of emergency rooms. it is a partnership that involves the city of burnaby, the burnaby Parks, r ecreation and c ulture c ommission, seniors societies and retired medical professionals. it's a very cost-effective program. The total cost is a mere $2.40 per visit, approximately.

Given the low cost as well as the preventative and early diagnostic focus, it has saved significant health care dollars. i strongly believe that this program is one that deserves ongoing sustainable funding and full support from both sides of the h ouse. t oday we have some members of the burnaby Partners in Seniors Wellness visiting the l egislature. i hope they will be able to meet with the Minister of h ealth and the Minister of h ealthy l iving and Sport. i wish them all the very best and support their efforts to get ongoing sustainable funding for this wonderful program helping seniors in burnaby. bonSor SeniorS Societ Y J.

Nuraney: i rise today to speak about the bonsor Seniors Society of burnaby. it is a society that is very active, and it is a vibrant group of over 100 seniors affecting the lives of thousands of seniors in our area, in burnaby. They play a very key role not only in the lives of their members but in the community of the city at large. i've had the privilege of knowing and working with them for the past several years and continue to be amazed by their energy and eagerness to contribute to the society, giving their experience, skills and talents for the benefit of the community at large.

They organize and manage programs for their mem- bers that include blood pressure testing, education sessions relating to health care, fall prevention, peer counselling and general wellness. a part from this valu- able activity, they also reach out to the other members of the community, such as the new immigrants, by providing top-notch parenting and literacy programs.

They help them with their school needs and bring them together to celebrate diversity. it is not often that we recognize the immense asset we have in our seniors, and we do not often use their experi- ence, skills, talents and professionalism. bonsor Seniors make available this invaluable asset for the benefit of the community, and i applaud what they do. Violence a Gain St Wo Men C. Trevena: Sunday marks international Women's Day, the day when in many parts of the world women are celebrated and recognized. it's a day on which women's rights are marked and women's issues highlighted.

The u nited n ations theme this year is "Women and men united against violence against women and girls." Violence against women can be interpreted in many different ways. There is what we all recognize: wife bat- tering, physical and emotional violence against a spouse — the dark underside of more relationships than most people realize or would like to admit. We all say that we want to do something about this — to stop violence against women. n ot to just make it illegal — it already is that — but to make it culturally

british c olumbia Debates14254 t hursday, March 5, 2009 unacceptable. but are women not doubly victimized when as victims of violence they're not able to get the legal aid they need to pursue any civil case? a re women not doubly victimized when they're forced to leave their homes? Thank goodness for temporary respite and tran- sition houses, but then what? a re women not doubly victimized when they've had to face a waiting list for counselling after they've been raped?

Violence against women is not just physical or emo- tional violence in a relationship or rape or sexual assault. i'd argue that restricting access for income assistance is violence against women.

Saying to a woman that when her child is three years old, she has to find work or face losing her welfare — that is violence against women. a welfare system which impoverishes women, which forces them into destitution before they're even eligible to apply and which bars them from accessing education — that is violence against women. [1355] i've talked in this h ouse about the trafficking of women. t rafficking is violence against women and girls. u nder-age marriage in places like bountiful — that is violence against women and girls.

Women in the prov- incial prison system who have their babies taken away from them — that is violence against women. a s we approach this international Women's Day, let's look to our own society and see what we can do to truly end violence against women. 70th anniVerSar Y o F north Shore nei Ghbourhoo D hou Se K. Whittred: This year n orth Shore n eighbourhood h ouse is celebrating 70 years of serving the community. Founded in 1939 by a small group of local residents, the goal of this new neighbourhood house was to create an accessible place for youth.

This was to expand on the already popular beattie's residence where many neigh- bourhood kids gathered regularly for activities such as sewing and building model airplanes. n eighbourhood h ouse has since expanded and developed into an all-around community house for the neighbourhood. With programs for children, youth, adults and seniors alike, n orth Shore n eighbourhood h ouse has aptly been described as the heart of the com- munity, and so it is. With a strong sense in grass roots, n eighbourhood h ouse continues to address the changing needs of the community.

Programs such as supported child develop- ment, pregnant and parenting teens, a whole variety of seniors programs including wellness and a recent program called grandparent connections, which helps grandparents caring for their grandchildren — all address today's needs in the community. The staff and volunteers that make up n orth Shore n eighbourhood h ouse are, in reality, a dedicated group.

They approach their work with incredible heart and deserve special kudos. once again, i offer my most heartfelt congratulations to n orth Shore n eighbourhood h ouse on 70 years of incredible work in the n orth Shore community. May your good work continue for generations to come. niSGa'a ne W Year celebration R. Austin: l ast Friday i had the honour to attend, along with hundreds of others, the annual n isga'a new year's celebration, or Hobiyee as it is called.

This event takes place at the end of February just before the ooli- chans' arrival signals the beginning of spring. it was an incredible experience to witness literally hundreds of visitors to the community of l axgalts'ap, or Greenville. l axgalts'ap means "village on village," an acknowledgment that this community was built on pre- vious n isga'a settlements that have existed there for over 500 years. a long with others, i partook of some of the most incredible hospitality, which the n isga'a are famous for, including the serving of a traditional n isga'a meal to all who were there.

There were so many in attendance that once all the banquet tables were full, people and children then filled up the bleachers of their community hall. a fter dinner the tables were cleared, and the dancing and drumming began. t o see so many first nations from all over the northwest of the province is a won- derful sight, but once those drums got going, it was truly a spiritual experience. n ot only were there groups from the four n isga'a communities, but there were also groups from the t simshian, the Gitxsan and the h aisla of k itamaat village, proving once again that the resur - gence of aboriginal culture that is currently taking place is alive and well in northwest b.c.

The atmosphere was one of joyous festivity, with some mothers even dancing with small children attached to their backs, quietly content to take in the raucous celebrations. i want to thank the people of l axgalts'ap and all the organizers for a job well done and to invite all members of this h ouse to think about attending this unique cul- tural event in the future. a ll that remains, Mr. Speaker, is for me to wish every- one here a happy nisga'a new year — Hobiyee . SeiSMic uPGraD e o F We St Vancou Ver Secon Dar Y School R.

Sultan: a couple weeks ago i had the pleasure of announcing $1.3 million in provincial funding to seis- mically upgrade West Vancouver Secondary School. This is one example of approximately 100 similar seismic projects across the province either completed, underway or soon to be launched. i toured the school's gymnasium

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, March 5, 2009 14255 — part of the scheduled upgrade. i was shown a massive wooden beam which had already failed, fortunately not catastrophically. [1400] u pgrading involves new concrete footings for plywood shear walls, floor reinforcements, exterior wall cladding and stronger connections between roof, floors and walls. a ll such work conforms to the design recommenda- tions of b.c.'s a ssociation of Professional engineers and Geoscientists peer-review committee for the creation of a performance-based approach in assessing schools.

Prominent on that task force were a ndy Mill, P .eng.; Dr. c arlos Ventura, ubc professor of earthquake engineering; and John r obertson, the chief building inspector for the city of Vancouver.

This committee received the aP eGbc president's award for distin- guished public service. a s a plus, new provincially funded seismic upgrades, such as this one, will incorporate b.c. wood, helping our forest industry. n ot even an earthquake scientist can predict when the big one will hit, but hit it surely will. it's reassuring that school boards across the province are systematically working their way through their priority list. Oral Questions Go VernMent action on ho MeleSS neSS J.

Kwan: The a uditor General's report released today condemns this government's record on the homelessness file, and it is telling this government what most british c olumbians already knew — that this government failed to properly assess the magnitude of the problem, that the government failed to prevent homelessness from increasing, that the government failed to put in a comprehensive plan to address the homelessness crisis and that this government failed to be accountable.

Will the Minister of h ousing do the right thing, admit that he was wrong and do what the public, local gov- ernments and now the a uditor General are calling for: develop a comprehensive plan to end the homelessness crisis? Hon. R. Coleman: h omelessness is an extremely complex issue, and we appreciate the audit team's efforts in trying to understand it, in both the fundamentals and the nuances.

We also appreciate the audit's recognition that the province has initiated a number of best practices and is taking an evidence-based approach to addressing homelessness in british c olumbia. a udits are part of what instruct us with regards to going forward.

We have, as the member knows, initiated an integrated plan with regards to how we'll work in five significant communities across the province of british c olumbia, in addition to the other things we're doing. i think this is really about, more than anything else, this h ouse understanding that really the homelessness is about people. i can give you statistics, and each sta- tistic is a human being. it's a human being whose life is being turned around, because we're concentrating on homelessness, mental health and addiction by putting supports in buildings that we're buying and building so that we can address the issue for humanity across the province of british c olumbia.

Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. J. Kwan: The minister knew that this report was coming, and two days ago he engaged in damage control. h e made an announcement and said that he was going to be the czar to end homelessness. in the meanwhile, the report comes forward and says that homelessness is actually increasing.

The report: "Despite putting in place many best practice strategies and programs, government has not been successful in reducing homelessness." The a uditor General's report goes on to say: "The continuing increase in the number of homeless counted suggests a lack of success in managing homelessness, let alone reducing it.

When there are no clear goals or performance targets, accountability for results is mis- sing. h ow will we know we are successful if we have not identified success?" My question to the minister is this. is he afraid to commit to a target and time line to end the homelessness crisis? because he knows that his government would not be able to deliver on that promise. [1405] Hon. R. Coleman: i'll give you some targets and some results, hon. Member.

Some 4,600 people in the last 18 months in british c olumbia have been con- nected to housing and supports with outreaching across the province…. i know you want to make them just statistics, but let's talk about an individual person. interjections. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. R.

Coleman: l et's just describe one person, a young woman whose mother said to us: "i lost my daughter. one of my children went one way; one child went the other way." one child had 82 visits to hospital in a year, was in and out of police custody and other health profession- als, was allowed to move into a single-room-occupancy hotel that we renovated and put in supports for, and in the last year had three visits to hospital. That's a measurement, particularly when the mother says to you: "i got my daughter back."

british c olumbia Debates14256 t hursday, March 5, 2009 The reality is that we are doing yeoman service in this province with regard to homelessness. We have the most aggressive strategy in c anadian history. We have invested three times more money than that government ever did with regards to people that need help in this province, and we will continue to drive the homeless agenda in the province of b.c. Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supplemental. J.

Kwan: The city of Vancouver's homeless count shows that street-level homelessness has increased by 365 percent under this government's watch. it has hap- pened while this minister is the Minister of h ousing.

The a uditor General's report says: "There is no prov- incial homelessness plan with clear goals and objectives." Page 2: "a ll indications are that homelessness is still growing." Page 34: "We recommend that government improve its reporting related to homelessness so that the public and l egislature can understand its extent and whether or not progress is being made." Does the minister seriously think that his ad hoc approach in addressing the homelessness crisis is better than what the a uditor General is recommending? Hon. R. Coleman: l et's talk about Vancouver, since the member opposite brought it up.

The member opposite wrote me a couple years ago and begged me to buy the c arl r ooms in Vancouver, one single-room- occupancy hotel. We have bought 23. We're renovating them. We're putting in supports for people that are homeless and suffering from mental health and addictions, and we're getting results. We also took a shelter space in b.c. and invested $41 million — 24-7, 365 days a year. l et's not take my words for it. l et's take…. interjections. Hon. R. Coleman: a ctually, hon.

Member, i would wonder how many people from that particular office went down and looked in the face of a homeless person in the city of Vancouver. but this person has. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Coleman: "i think we're finally making progress. We have two levels of government at the city and at the province where we're seeing quite firm political will to put the housing in place to resolve homelessness. i saw fewer people in the streets sleeping outside, and this is wonderful to me." Do you know who that is?

That's a lady in Vancouver who's been working with homelessness for 30 years, Judy Graves, in the city of Vancouver. She believes we're on the right track in Vancouver. She believes we're working in the right direction, and she supports the Premier. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1410] D.

Chudnovsky: The a uditor General states: "W e expected government to have in place a comprehensive plan with clear measurable goals and objectives on how home- lessness will be addressed." h e goes on: "W e concluded that government does not have a comprehensive plan for providing clear direction for addressing homelessness." Surely the government didn't just realize when they first saw the a uditor General's report that there's a crisis of homelessness in the province.

When we're facing the worst crisis of homelessness since the Great Depression more than 70 years ago, why doesn't the government already have in place the comprehensive plan the a uditor General calls for? Why is it all about damage control? Hon. R. Coleman: i'm proud to be part of a gov- ernment that's been the leader in c anada in dealing with homelessness, mental health and addictions. i'm proud to…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat, Minister. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. R.

Coleman: So 2001 — 1,300 units of supportive housing for people in the province of british c olumbia suffering from mental health, homelessness and addic- tions. t oday — 4,410, with 1,200 more in development. Some people might want to measure things certain ways — by cutting ribbons and thinking they're being heroes.

Me, i believe in the 42 women that are being changed in one S ro , whose lives are being changed in the Downtown e astside of Vancouver because we developed a relationship with the Portland h otel Society on a facility so those women can flee abuse, flee the sex trade, deal with their addictions and mental ill- ness. That's the way you measure it. Y ou measure it in changing people's lives. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. D.

Chudnovsky: The a uditor General writes: "We expected government to have included high-level meas- ures of success in its…strategic plan or in a separate… plan specifically addressing homelessness." h e reports, however, that the government "presents no measures or targets for homelessness."

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, March 5, 2009 14257 a gain, everybody in the province, including this Premier and this minister, knows we have an appalling crisis of homelessness. Why hasn't the government set out clear targets and time lines for dealing with the crisis? Hon. R. Coleman: Y ou know, a woman wrote me recently. She has six children. She was moving…. interjections. Hon. R. Coleman: This isn't an isolated incident, Member.

This is one of the 8,000 people who are at risk of homelessness who get assistance under the rental assistance program in the province of british c olumbia that you guys opposed and you voted against. This is a mother with six children who was going to move into her station wagon, and she was able to access the rent assistance program. She came to see me recently and told me about her employment and her goals and her future and how happy her kids were and how healthy they were and how good they were doing in school.

That's how i measure it. i measure it with people — not with statistics but with people whose lives you change for the better. if they don't like that, that's just too bad. MiniMu M Wa Ge K. Conroy: The a uditor General clearly says in this report that one of the most common causes of homeless- ness is low wages relative to living costs. We need to know: will the minister finally admit that this government's ideo- logical refusal to help british c olumbia's lowest earners is adding to the homelessness crisis, and will he stand today and support a raise to the minimum wage? interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Just wait, Minister. [1415] Hon. R. Coleman: in british c olumbia any family making under $35,000 a year can get assistance with their rent anywhere in the province today. a lmost 8,000 families access that. in that member's own riding there are 17 families in c astlegar and 19 families in t rail that access the rent assistance program confidentially within the community — nobody knows. They can have quality of life and self-respect for themselves by having affordability in housing, and that member voted against that. interjections. Mr. Speaker: We're not continuing until there's silence. Members.

Member has a supplemental. K. Conroy: e ven those people deserve a living wage. e ven the province of a lberta is raising their minimum wage. Y et this minister refuses to face reality. We're not alone in calling for a raise to minimum wage. The president of the White r ock c hamber of c ommerce said in February that he supports raising the minimum wage, saying: "it's been frozen for some time, and to try and survive on minimum wage is extremely difficult." a gain to the minister: will he make a real commitment to fight homelessness and raise the minimum wage? Hon. R.

Coleman: i'll tell you the commitment to eliminate homelessness. it's a budget that's over tripled in the last five years. it's 4,600 people connected with housing and supports because we have outreach work- ers in 41 communities across the province of british c olumbia. it's 7,700 families but also 15,000-plus sen- iors on Shelter a id for e lderly r enters in the province of british c olumbia getting assistance with their rent. it's housing with supports in 2001 being 1,300 and hous- ing with supports being over 4,400 today, and 1,200 new units coming on.

That's fighting homelessness, and the reality is that these guys don't like this. They don't like the fact that in the communities across the province of british c olumbia, whether it be in Quesnel or Prince George or k amloops or Penticton or in the k ootenays or down in the l ower Mainland, we have made the most significant investment in housing for people with mental health addictions in c anadian history. re Gulation o F Se Ptic SYSte MS B.

Simpson: For the past three years the opposition has been warning this government that they are threat- ening the health and safety of our drinking water in this province by the privatization and deregulation of our septic system installations. t oday another report is con- demning this government, just like we saw the a uditor General's report condemning them for homelessness.

This report, by health professionals, states: "The septic regulations are the worst legislation ever written in british c olumbia." Y et last year, last spring, when we asked the Minister of h ealth to address this concern, the Minister of h ealth said that it seems to be all working just fine. Does the minister still believe that these regula- tions are working just fine? Hon. M. Polak: i'm pleased that as a result of The Vancouver Sun

article today that the members oppos- ite have taken a renewed interest in the sewer system regulation in british c olumbia, an interest that they certainly didn't show for ten years when they were in government. i'm very pleased to report that the health protec- tion branch has been working collaboratively, not only

british c olumbia Debates14258 t hursday, March 5, 2009 with the u nion of b.c. Municipalities but also with the authors of this report. in fact, the majority of recom- mendations contained within this report originated within our health protection branch. Work in order to achieve and resolve those implementation issues is already well underway. We've had great progress with ubcM, and we intend to continue to provide the best protection for drinking water for british c olumbians across this province. [1420] Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. B.

Simpson: The minister should go get a briefing on how many times we've raised this issue in the l egislature, in estimates debate, outside the l egislature. We've been calling on this government to address this issue for the last four years. u nlike this government, we have actually worked with the coalition that put this report forward today, and here's what the report says that belies the truth of what the minister just said. "it's the worst legislation ever writ- ten in british c olumbia. e xperts are now warning that the number of poorly designed systems has skyrocketed under this new regime.

The self-regulatory system estab- lished for technicians is profoundly deficient, and b.c. taxpayers are being forced to pay huge sums for septic systems that will fail." Deregulation and privatization of something that is going to affect the drinking water. This report states today…. t oday it says that if we don't fix this failed law, we could see mini-Walkertons all over this province. Will the Minister of h ealth stand up and commit today to re-regulate this industry immediately and make sure we don't kill anybody by this deregulation? interjections. Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat for a second, Minister.

Minister. Hon. M. Polak: it is shameful that the member would attempt to fearmonger in such a manner when it comes to something as serious as the drinking water for british c olumbians in this province. While the opposition wants to play politics with this, the health protection…. interjections. Hon. M. Polak: i know the members opposite would like to heckle and jeer, but perhaps it would be more constructive to consider the serious nature of the pro- tection of drinking water in british c olumbia. l et me tell you the actions that we have taken thus far.

We have provided for $16 million to support our drinking water action plan, $21 million to support the living rivers trust fund and $120 million to more than 80 communities through the community water improvement program — initiatives that those members voted against. A. Dix: The minister doesn't seem to find it shame- ful that, in the protection of public drinking water, the government has set up a system that is, to quote from the report, a "classic case study in regulatory failure." it is the worst regulation ever written in british c olumbia. Hon. K. Falcon: Give us an example. A.

Dix: The Minister of t ransportation wants an example. i refer him to page 39 of the report, where it details how public health inspectors are stopped from protecting health. They are not allowed to stop the installation of septic tanks that could or would pollute the local water supply. That is shameful. Does the minister find it acceptable that health inspectors are being stopped by government diktat from protecting b.c.'s drinking water? Hon. M. Polak: Well, let me tell you what the mem- bers opposite found acceptable when they were in government. They found it acceptable…. interjections. Mr.

Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. M. Polak: They found it acceptable to place absolutely no requirements whatsoever onto installers of wastewater systems — not one. a s a result of the work of our health protection branch — working with ubcM, working with the a pplied Science t echnologists and t echnicians of b.c — we now have in british c olumbia 600 certified professionals. [1425] l et me leave no doubt that our work is ongoing to make sure we have the best protection of drinking water in all of c anada. i want to read from a letter that we received from the ombudsman in response… interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Members. c ontinue. Hon. M. Polak: …to our work in responding to her recommendations around drinking water. She says: "i applaud the efforts of the ministry in ensuring the recom- mendations are implemented, in providing updates to my office. i thank you for your and your ministry's con- tinued commitment to improving drinking water safety in british c olumbia." We intend to continue.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, March 5, 2009 14259 Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. A. Dix: one inspector — and the minister maybe will read the report; we'll be hopeful — accounts e-mailing his supervisor to say this: "if retention of my job requires that i sign/stamp this, i will do so. Please understand that this does present a moral dilemma. i shouldn't knowingly assist in the creation of a substandard sewer- age system that will likely be a health hazard." h ow is that acceptable? n ow i know that the minister was left behind this… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. A.

Dix: …septic disaster from the Minister of h ealth, but when will she act to change this law so b.c.'s drink- ing water is protected? Hon. M. Polak: l et's talk about what we've done. What we've done is provide for 600 certified profession- als. in contrast to the ten years when these folks were in government, a time when anyone was able to install a sewerage system, we now require that only a certified professional can do that.

We recognize that in implementing these regulations, it's important for us to work with communities. r ural communities have had challenges in trying to come up to the standards set for those installing wastewater sys- tems in b.c. So i am proud. i am proud of the progress we've made in working with the u nion of b.c.

Municipalities, with whom we've signed an M ou as of September. i am also pleased that with respect to the recommendations in the report, the majority of them, if the member had listened to my first response, originated in the offices of our health protection branch, who work collaboratively with the ubcM, the technologists and the authors of this report. Future o F harMac Mill L.

Krog: The Minister of Forests has stated publicly that the new management structure of h armac mill may be a model for the future of the industry. h owever, that mill's future is actually in this minister's hands. it's a straight-up question. Will the Minister of Forests commit today that this government will indemnify h armac's historical environmental liability so that it can continue to function and provide hundreds of jobs in my community? Hon. P .

Bell: We've been working very closely with the management team, the employees and the owners at h armac to make sure they have a long-term, viable future. it is a very challenging point in time, but what the member opposite is requesting would mean a $30 million to $50 million liability. That would open up the door across this province. We would have to offer the same to all of the pulp industry. That is not a reason- able request. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. L. Krog: it may not be a very reasonable request, but this government has helped out its friends and insiders all over the place.

So i'm speaking on behalf of my con- stituents. if we can give away our railway, we can save the jobs at h armac in n anaimo. This is a model operation. it's running at reduced costs. it provides hope and some optimism for an indus- try that this government has watched fall into the toilet, frankly. So i say to this minister today: will he do the right thing today and commit here in this h ouse that he'll indemnify that long-term environmental liability and save h armac? Hon. P .

Bell: i suppose i should expect that coming from a member of a government who authored the destiny of Skeena c ellulose and the significant investment that was made in that particular facility — half a billion dollars of taxpayers' money for an additional year of operation. [1430] So it shouldn't surprise me that that member would be advocating for another bailout of that nature. but you know what? The employees at h armac have it right. They're working hard in that organization to make sure that mill does have a long-term, viable future.

We have made significant changes that will help the viability of that operation, including the removal of 50 percent of the school property taxes at that and all other pulp mills in the province, to treat them fairly — roughly a $1.25 million savings in each of those operations. on top of that, the removal of the corporate capital tax that we did in our first term…. interjections. Hon. P . Bell: i'm sorry the members opposite keep calling time here. if they're going to ask the question, they should take the time to listen to the answer.

This is a government that believes in the long-term sustainability of that industry. D. Routley: This government starts its fires, and then it arrives with a pail at the last minute and expects a medal of honour. it is creating job loss. in Mackenzie they inherited a liability because the mill went down. in Port a lice, after repeated pleas from the member for n orth island, they finally responded and took over those liabilities for that mill.

british c olumbia Debates14260 t hursday, March 5, 2009 What's different about this mill in n anaimo — h armac — and those workers? The minister himself says it's the model for the future, and yet he sits by and watches as they struggle. They have a business plan that will keep them working, keep those families employed. Will he today stand up and take the action that he's going to have to anyway if they go under? it has been proven in Mackenzie. h e had to take it over there, with no jobs.

Will he today stand up and do what he did in Port a lice and do what he did in Mackenzie — do the right thing and indemnify that mill, keep it operating, indem- nify them from liabilities that are not their own making, help those workers today? interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. t ake your seat for a second. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members on both sides. Minister. Hon. P .

Bell: i guess we've just heard a policy position from the members opposite. i think what they're saying is the government should subsidize heavy industry by removing all the environmental liabilities that are associ- ated with it. is that the new policy of the nDP opposite? because that's what we're hearing. This government believes in a level playing field across the province. if they would have taken the time to understand what's going on in Mackenzie…. There has been no environmental indemnity. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. [end of question period.] Hon. J.

McIntyre: i seek leave to make an introduction. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Introductions by Members Hon. J. McIntyre: t oday in the members' gallery we have special visitors from israel. h er e xcellency Miriam Ziv, the recently appointed a mbassador of israel to c anada, is making her very first official visit to Victoria. She's accompanied by her husband Mr. a riel k enet. Please join me in giving them a very, very warm welcome to this h ouse and to british c olumbia. K. Whittred: i seek leave to make an introduction. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. K.

Whittred: in the gallery is a woman who works very hard to record our words for posterity. it is Jo-a nne k ern, who is director of h ansard Services. With her is her daughter t ara brookman. Would you join me in making them very welcome. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: i call continued second reading debate on bill 5, the Supply a ct (n o. 1), 2009. [1435] Second Reading of Bills Su PPl Y act (n o. 1), 2009 (continued) Mr. Speaker: c an members, if they're leaving the chamber, please leave quietly. B.

Ralston: i want to briefly resume my place and continue and make a few remarks in conclusion on bill 5. a s i said this morning in debating this bill, this is an unusual step by the government in the sense that it pre- vents the opposition and the l egislature from debating the main estimates. it's unusually long. t ypically, interim supply is two months or three months. This is for five months, and the ambit of this bill really prevents — and of course i want to respect previous rulings that Speakers have made on the ambit of debate on this particular bill — full discussion of any line-by-line items.

There are real questions that british c olumbians have, that the opposition has about the budget, and it looks as though by bringing this bill forward at this time the gov- ernment doesn't intend to proceed further with budget debate. The government doesn't intend to use the time that's available this month to debate main estimates and the way in which they're debated. Those who are familiar with the process will be aware that there's an opportunity in the debate of main estimates for individual members to pose questions to the minister.

The minister is assisted by his or her staff, and that's often a time when there's some illumination of policy concerns. Where there's a frank exchange of views, there's an opportunity to debate at length. i think, and i'm sure most members of the public would think, that that's the sort of job that legislators should be doing, and that's the kind of good policy results that will be achieved by that process. indeed, that's a time-honoured process that has served parliamentary institutions around the world

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, March 5, 2009 14261 very well. Y et by this introduction of interim supply, that opportunity to debate in that way will be closed off. So the very principles on which parliamentary democracy is based, where people come to the parliament to have their grievances heard prior to supply being voted, will be avoided. The government is obviously anxious to cut debate off, to get out on the election trail, not to have a full debate of their budget, and obviously that's something that we would welcome.

There are a number of assumptions on which the budget is based, which certainly, in the cur - rent economic context, are changing rapidly. [S. h ammell in the chair.] it would be a good opportunity and an important opportunity, a valuable opportunity, to have that debate with members of the government, particularly prior to an election, in order that the issues are very clear and clearly before people when they go to cast their ballot in a couple of months from now. r egrettably, at this very early stage in this session, only several weeks after tabling a budget, the government has tabled this bill. i expect that members on this side will want to fully debate this interim supply bill, but again, understanding the general nature that is forced upon us by the debate. a s i've said earlier, there are a number of ques- tions. i know a number of members here have many questions, many concerns that they would wish to air, wish to have ministers respond to — whether it's the Minister of Forests, whether it's the Minister of the e nvironment, whether it's the Minister of h ealth or the Minister of Finance. a ll those questions in the estimates debate would be at play, and there would be an opportunity to have that discussion. but by tabling this bill 5, the government basically is authorized to continue spending money without any substantive public discussion, any real debate, any line-by-line debate on those spending plans, which is the very essence of what parliamentary debate is all about. [1440] c ontrol of supply — that is, the spending of the money — is the very basic act, the essential part, that government does, and approval of supply is the very essence, the most important act that the l egislature engages in.

So it's regrettable indeed that the govern- ment has chosen to proceed in this way. i want to make clear on the record, if i haven't already, that i oppose the tabling of this interim supply bill at this point. i speak strongly against it, and i expect my colleagues will join me in continuing to speak against it as long as the rules permit us to do so. With that, i'll conclude my remarks and give way to the next speaker. L. Krog: i'm delighted today to follow the member for Surrey-Whalley, who has spoken so eloquently on what is absolutely fundamental to what it is we do in this place. a bsolutely fundamental.

What we do is grant the government — h er Majesty the Queen — the authority to spend the people's money. it's historic. it's a fascinating process. it is the funda- mental process of a democratic society that the people, through its elected representatives, are able to deter - mine what happens to their taxes, what happens to the revenue collected by the state on behalf of the Sovereign, who represents all british c olumbians. i must say today that i was a bit surprised when the Minister of Finance got up to speak. i had expected in second reading debate that the minister might wish to spend some time explaining the importance and the necessity of what he was doing, why it had to be dealt with in this manner, why we needed an interim supply bill, why it was important for the people of british c olumbia, why it was important for this government, why it was important for the l iberal Party, why it was important for anything, because it is absolutely funda- mental to what we do here. but it had to be one of the shortest pitches i've ever heard.

The members of this h ouse well know that many groups host luncheons and breakfasts and dinners and cocktail receptions for members of this l egislative a ssembly. They do it in most parliaments and legisla- tures in the world.

Y ou expect, frankly, in an hour, the passage of time, that somewhere at some point some- body's going to stand up and explain what it is that organization wants, why they want it and why it's the right thing to do. n ow, i would have thought that today, when the Minister of Finance stood up in this h ouse, we would have had at least a few minutes of explanation, of justi- fication, some reasons why it was necessary at this time and in this place to grant the government what is prob- ably the biggest blank cheque — if not, then probably very close to it — in the history of the province of british c olumbia. i don't usually like to round numbers up. it's not my style. if an accurate number is available, i like to use it. i think it's important. i think it builds credibility with the public. but i'm going to round up the number that's referred to in bill 5.

The number, actually, is $13.39 bil- lion. i'm going to round it up for the purpose of this debate. i'm going to refer to it as $14 billion — nearly $14 billion that this government asks this h ouse to approve, without so much as a real please and thank- you from the Minister of Finance, without so much as a significant explanation for it. i know that the Minister of Finance on occasion can be a man of few words. Sometimes, depending on the quality of what's being said, that's always appreciated by the members of this assembly. but i would have thought

british c olumbia Debates14262 t hursday, March 5, 2009 that today, when you're asking for a $14 billion cheque that you get to spend over the next five months pretty much how you please, this minister might just have given us a slightly longer explanation of why. [1445] Perhaps, you know, he'd read Oliver Twist. h e thought that all he had to do was stand up and say, "Please, sir. i want some more," and that would be sufficient. We'd just either whack him or give him another bowl of gruel and call it a day. but this isn't some novel.

This is the fundamental job of the people of british c olumbia that is given to us, by the privilege and honour of representing them in this assembly, and that is to decide and approve what the crown does with our cash. i can't help but think that there's a certain amusing aspect to this. it's referred to as a bill. it's bill 5. it's a pretty big bill. a s i said, it's basically $14 billion. n ow, i'm reasonably well informed that even british c olumbia's richest person, Jimmy Pattison, doesn't have $14 billion lying around in his back pocket.

So i think it's safe to say that this is probably the only institution in the province that's going to deal with this amount of money in this fast a period of time with so little debate and comment. i would have thought that a government, as it approached an election on May 12 — as it was coming to that judgment day that the people get to pass by stat- ute in this province every four years now — might wish to have explained to people why we needed a five-month interim supply and given us some idea of what they intended, really, to do with it.

We've had a budget tabled. it gives us some idea where the government's going. but at heart — because the trust level, particularly in this government, let alone in govern- ment generally, is so low now — no one really believes that the budget that was tabled is, in fact, going to be the real budget for the province of british c olumbia for 2009-2010. n obody really believes that.

What they do understand, however, is that we're being asked in this bill to give them the right to spend, as i say, basically $14 billion in five months. h ow it's going to be spent is, really, entirely up to them. the normal process is that this l egislature, par - ticularly through the members of the opposition, does its due diligence. it spends hour after hour going through the budget, through committee stage, through the estimates process, scrutinizing what the govern- ment spends. Y ou know, hon.

Speaker, i've got to tell you. in all hon- esty — and i think the people of british c olumbia need to hear it — with the limited resources available to the opposition, we probably don't do a perfect job. Things still slip by. The people's money gets spent in ways that maybe it shouldn't — their money, the money they work hard to earn and the money that through a taxation system they give to us to spend on their behalf to build a province we should all be proud of. We probably don't do a perfect job. but at least there is that process.

There is an opportunity to scrutinize, to criticize, to ask questions, to raise issues, to do our job, to do the job that we're elected to do. That opportunity is not going to happen with this interim supply act. We're not going to get that process, which is our duty to implement. We're not going to get that opportunity to actually figure out whether what the government proposes is right. a former member of this assembly, a british c olumbian of some note, a name that's so well known that when i say it in this h ouse everyone's going to know who i'm talking about….

Former member for k amloops r afe Mair said that one of the problems that he observed about government in british c olumbia today was that when government decided to split this h ouse into two, into a c ommittee of Supply that operated in what we refer to affectionately as the little h ouse, what it did was diminish the importance of the estimates process of the budgetary approval process — indeed, of interim supply. [1450] h on. Speaker, i think Mr. Mair may have had a point, because i want to come back to where i started.

The approval of the spending of the people's money is absolutely fundamental. it is the basis. it is what we do here that has the greatest impact on the lives of the people of british c olumbia, deciding where and how and on what priorities their money is spent. i can't think of anything that is more important. We pass legislation, but without a budget, without money to allow for the implementation of that legislation or its enforcement, it is meaningless. So we come back to that basic fundamental issue, the approval of the spending of the people's money.

When we conclude the process, we hear those won- derful words, those charming, ancient words that come from the lips of the c lerk of the h ouse when he says, with the l ieutenant-Governor in the chair: "in h er Majesty's name, h is h onour the l ieutenant-Governor thanks you for your benevolence." Y our benevolence. it's a wonder- ful phrase. it has a lovely sound to it. it has a poetic ring to it. The benevolence of the people and h er Majesty expressing gratitude to the l ieutenant-Governor for it. What can be more sweet than that phrase? This today is a less — how shall i say? — romantic proposition.

This is a pretty rough and ready "gimme $14 million, and let me get out of here." There is noth- ing of that wonderful sense of history about this process. This is a grab-and-run. This is a "fill my sack with loot; i'm outta here" kind of approach to governing. This is less than what the people of british c olumbia pay us to do. This is less than what they deserve. a s i said earlier, it's an honour and a privilege to be here, a great honour and privilege to be here, and that privilege may not be accorded to all of us after May 12.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, March 5, 2009 14263 but while we are here, we have a very solemn duty to do what's right by the people who put us here, by the people who pay us, by the people for whom we speak. What we're engaging in here with this Supply a ct, with the greatest respect, is really a bit of a charade. We all know that this budget is really a document, if you will, and pardon the mixing of the metaphors, written in water. We all know that what's presented and what has been presented isn't going to be the real budget.

We know that it's not likely the way the government's really going to spend the money. We know certainly it won't be the way government will spend the money if the opposition's elected on May 12, because we have a great different set of priorities for the people of british c olumbia. Frankly, i don't think there are a lot of british c olumbians who believe that the budget represents what this government is planning to do either, which is why i come back to it. it's a bit of a charade. it's essentially, if you will, a shot in the dark. We don't know what's going to happen with the economy.

We do know for certain that interim supply speaks to what the government thinks it might spend in the next five months, what it might need. but we know that this was the very same government that last fall, when virtually every other government at every level in the western world understood the world indeed was slipping into recession, basically stood by and said, "Things are going to be fine. british c olumbia is well positioned. Things will be great. n o worries.

Don't worry; be happy" — when, in fact, as i've said before in this h ouse, the chickens started to come home to roost. [1455] We saw what happened with dropping revenues. We're now being asked to approve some nearly $14 billion in expenditures, and we really have no idea, nor can we speak with any confidence, about where we're going to end. The devil is, as the cliché goes, always in the details. The budget itself is a pretty substantial number.

We're being asked to approve 5/12 of it today to allow the gov- ernment to meet the payroll, to carry on, to do what they think is appropriate, to address what they believe are pri- orities, without any opportunity for us as an opposition to do our job and require them to specify what those priorities are — where that money should be spent, how it should be spent, when it should be spent. n ow, i can understand a few months of interim supply. i might even be able to say: "t wo months, fixed election date — perhaps that's reasonable." but depending on when this l egislature finishes…. An Hon.

Member: We'll be in the middle of the election. L. Krog: The Minister of Finance suggests we'll be in the middle of an election. h e's right — two months from this date. but there's no guarantee, i might say, that this bill's going to pass today or tomorrow. There's no guarantee when this h ouse will sit because that likewise rests in the government's hands, obviously. An Hon. Member: it's your dime. L. Krog: n ow, the Minister of h ealth says, "i t's our dime" — somewhat sarcastically.

Well, it's actually the taxpayers' dime, and there are, by my rough calculation, whatever ten times 14 billion dimes are. i guess that's — what? — 1.4 trillion. Y ou know, we've come to an age where the numbers get so big, nobody really under - stands them anymore. interjections. L. Krog: My friend from Saanich South says: "a tril- lion here, a trillion there. Pretty soon you're talking real money." h on. Speaker, i come back to it. t hat's what we're talking about.

We're talking about money. the num- bers get so big, nobody appreciates it. but i ask myself as a legislator: "Do not i have an obligation on behalf of my constituents to question an interim supply act for five months, for nearly $14 billion? Do not i have some responsibility to my constituents?" i would hope so. What it seems to me the minister really said today in this very short speech he gave by way of second reading debate on this bill….

What he really spoke about was the arrogance of a government that believes it can largely do whatever it wants. it is so secure in its power that it thinks it can just ask this h ouse to give them that big blank cheque for $14 billion, not even say so much as a thanks, walk out of here in an election, and turn to the people of british c olumbia and say: "l ook what a good job we've done. We inherited a surplus budget. n ow we're probably going to finish our eight years in office with a deficit one, but we think we deserve another four years." a nother four years, hon.

Speaker. r eally the government doesn't want to face the scrutiny and the process which we are sworn to do in this place. it has been the job of the opposition throughout history to question how governments deal with their funding. Governments — although some people seem to think they're a separate entity, that they somehow don't bear relation to the people — are, in fact, the people represented in the form, if you will, of h er Majesty the Queen, who in this province is represented by the l ieutenant-Governor.

That's us. [1500] We get together collectively in this place, and we decide how we're going to spend this money and where it's going to go.

british c olumbia Debates14264 t hursday, March 5, 2009 in my constituency, we have a number of things that we think should be priorities. i could just go through what happened in question period earlier today. i can assure this h ouse that if we want to talk about interim supply, one of the things we might have wanted to hear from the Minister of Finance today is some suggestion that maybe a mill that the Minister of Forests described as perhaps a model for the future — a mill that has been a significant private employer in my community for well over 50 years — would indeed have a future.

That might have been something we'd wanted to hear the minister address in his remarks. it would have been nice to hear the minister in his remarks address the significant issues around homeless- ness and housing in my constituency, in my community in n anaimo. but we didn't hear any of that. We didn't hear any of that. We just heard him stand up and say: "h ere's what it is. i want $14 billion. i'd like to get out of here.

Thank you." Then we get the little bit of heckling from the other side about the opposition having the temerity to question the government spending $14 billion — that we might actually ask them to provide at least an explanation. but no, we just want $14 billion. Where is it going to go? Well, we want,

section 1, $13.390 billion towards defraying the charges and expense of the public service. Then we want another $659.7 million towards capital expenditures. o h, and then we want another — let's see — $1,153,500,000 for disbursements. i've got to tell you, hon. Speaker, disbursement is a term we use in the legal profession. That's a heck of a lot of disbursements to put on a bill.

This probably consti- tutes the biggest legal bill i've seen certainly in my career at the bar. i guess there is a certain cynicism amongst some of us in the opposition and the public that where this money might end up would in fact be — i don't know — in those so-called swing ridings where the govern- ment thinks they can either win or retain a seat, where this government's political future may lie as opposed to those communities in this province that after eight years of this government seriously need the money — who actually, when we talk about these so-called shovel-ready projects, need to see the shovels very quickly indeed.

Many of these communities have seen their schools closed, their courthouses gone, government offices gone — those small-town mainstays of the economy of a com- munity where people had some employment, where they had some benefits, where they had some security, and where other citizens would come to build and expand on what existed, to create communities across this province, to sustain them, to fulfil some of that social contract that used to be the basis…. Y ou've heard me before, hon.

Speaker, harken back to the days of Social credit. i've repeated it before — the wonderful line of the member for n elson-creston when he said: "Y ou've made me nostalgic for Social credit." i'm nostalgic for Social credit.

There are people on my campaign team who are going to choke on hearing those words out of my lips. i'm not asking for full approval of the Socred record. [1505] but you did understand that W .a.c. bennett — and Dave barrett, who followed him — understood that the people in the smaller towns of our province deserved an even break from the government that took their money. h e understood that you didn't pour it all into that golden triangle as it exists now, Vancouver and Whistler and Victoria. h e understood that it had to actually get out to the smaller communities. it had to get out to places like n anaimo, like Golden, like Powell r iver, like l angford — even Sicamous. h e understood that. on behalf of those small communities today, i ask the question: where is the money? h ow much of the $14 bil- lion do we get? h ow much is coming our way? or is it all going into a roof on b.c.

Place for $365 million? is it all going to cover the modest overrun of — some member will correct me, i'm sure — close to half a billion dollars on the convention centre? My people, my constituents, the folks on Vancouver island want to know: where is the money going to go? is it going to be spent wisely? is it going to help them through these tough economic circumstances?

Particularly those communities on the coast that have seen this govern- ment sit back with a detachment — which i won't call criminal, because i'd have to withdraw that — and such an incredible lack of desire to assist the forest industry that it has resulted in a situation now where the coastal forest industry that really built the communities along the coast and sustained them for decade after decade…. Many of them face ruin. is it unreasonable of me today here to ask the gov- ernment to at least provide some explanation about the Supply a ct?

The Minister of Finance has spoken, but there are many other members in this chamber on the government benches who could stand up and perhaps illuminate a little. They could perhaps provide some tiny snippet of information that might give the member for Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast some hope, the member for n orth island some confidence that the interest of her constituents would be looked after — which the member for c owichan-l adysmith might be able to deliver back to his constituents and say: "Y ou know what? i was just in the h ouse in Victoria. i gave them $14 million on your behalf, and guess what.

Some of it is going to assist you." i don't think it would have been unreasonable to ask for that. There's still an opportunity for the members opposite to stand up and address that. There's still an opportunity in this debate. i want to assure the govern-

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, March 5, 2009 14265 ment members that we're not just going to come in here and hand over the cash. Y ou're not going to come down to us like n icodemus in the night, whisper in our ear that you want something and then march away. it's not going to happen. We will debate as long as we can in order to force this government to do the right thing, to do what it hasn't really wanted to do ever since it took power — that is, be accountable. be accountable.

Y ou know, the kid who gets caught in the classroom whacking his fellow classmate with a ruler understands that when the teacher says stand up and apologize and take some punishment…. They understand that. That's basic accountability. it's a pretty standard principle in the classroom. in what sometimes gets to be one of the most rau- cous classrooms in british c olumbia, this place, surely the government could observe the same principle.

They could accept their responsibilities to the people. if you're asking for this $14 billion blank cheque, say please, explain why and then say thank you. i didn't hear much of a please, and i really don't expect a thank-you. i just thought that maybe there might be the slightest form of explanation and justification for why it is that this government needs a five-month interim supply bill when we've got time to try and get into the estimates process and at least get some justification for why this government wants $14 billion of the taxpayers' hard-earned money at a difficult time. [1510] i wish this government well in this debate, but this opposition is not going to give up.

We're going to do our job. Maybe this government should do theirs. N.

Macdonald: i rise to speak to bill 5, interim supply bill. a s previous members have observed, the interim supply bill authorizes for five months — almost half of the year, without detailed questioning that would nor - mally be involved in estimates — of funding for a series of existing programs. a s we go through this process, i think it's important that the public understand the esti- mates process that is likely to be missed in those five months, the very significant and important work that often goes on in that process. it is a process significantly different than much of what goes on in the l egislature in the sense that there is a back-and-forth.

We see it with the committee stage of a bill, which is an important process, but you also see it with one of the most fundamentally important func- tions that we have here, which is in the spending of large, large amounts of the public's money. With the estimates process, there are opportunities to debate in full and question and understand spending and programs in a way that's really far-reaching. There's often tremendous scope given to those discussions and tremendous opportunity to understand and have min- isters on the record identify where funds are going and where programs are intended to go.

So what we will see with bill 5 and with the five months of funding being approved….

We will miss that process, and there are problems with that. it is import- ant that we have that detailed discussion. in the first two weeks of the l egislature, we did have an opportunity to go through the supplementary budget process. a s part of that, there was an estimates, and even with that very narrow and limited debate, there were opportunities to raise issues and have ministers explain in detail the things that we hear about in our commun- ities and the questions that people have. a s an example of that, even from the previous debate, we had questions around health spending. e ven in the limited debate that we had around the supplementary debates, we had important information given about the invermere emergency room and details about what would happen with funding and where the process was now.

So it was a very important opportunity to get on Hansard answers to questions that people within the community have. With bill 5 and with this interim supply bill, what we are going to miss is that larger opportunity. it has been something that even with last year where we had the full estimates process, it was limited in a way that over the long term is a move in the wrong direction.

We were limited in scope — well, not so much in scope, but cer - tainly in the amount of time that we had. even in the four years that i've been here, what we have found is that the estimates process has become more and more limited in time. The first year i had several days to go through my ministry. l ast year i think it was barely an afternoon to go through a ministry that included the con- vention centre as well as b.c . Place — and there were many, many questions that went unanswered — as well as tour - ism, arts and culture.

There were a number of questions that we didn't have the opportunity to really fully question and get the full scope of answers that we needed. [1515] With this process here, the interim supply, we have the government able to spend money for five months without the opportunity to fully question what is going on. l ike i say, it's a process that i've found to be very useful and that i would look forward to engaging in. We have time that's left before we go to election to partici- pate in part of that process. My understanding is that with this, we will not move into that process, and that's unfortunate.

With health care, the questions that are easily raised and are of importance would be further discussion on seniors care and getting those answers, but also things like paramedics. Some of the discussions that you have in an estimates process…. Just for people's understanding, you have the

british c olumbia Debates14266 t hursday, March 5, 2009 opportunity to talk about issues that are quite complex, quite particular to your communities but incredibly important to people in those communities. i'll just give you a bit of an example with paramed- ics of what would and should be talked about during an estimates process. in rural british c olumbia paramedics are, of course, incredibly important not only for their service to community members. They're also incred- ibly important to those that visit our communities.

The areas that i represent have communities along some of the most dangerous and challenging highways in british c olumbia. The Minister of h ealth would certainly share some of those highways.

The challenges that we've seen with paramedics are in some of the reorganization. in some of the reorgan- ization, it has become very, very expensive to get the training that is needed to get your P c P . if we were moving into an estimates process, which this bill takes away from us, then we would have the opportunity to talk in detail about the paramedic service and to have a back-and-forth with the minister, where the minister would have staff or would understand the issue and give clear answers on Hansard that would deal with the issue. With paramedics, ultimately the issue is this.

The issue is that with PcP , with paramedics that receive that certification, you really have…. if you pay for the $5,000, then really, you are not likely to remain in the area.

When we authorize spending for five months, we're authorizing payments for those five months for a whole host of services which will either serve the people of the community well — serve the people of british c olumbia well — or not. in the estimates process there's an oppor- tunity to point out in a very particular area and in great detail some of the issues that are out there so that the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of h ealth can make sure that the funds we're spending are well con- sidered and that the needs people have are being met. it's not something that should simply be an irritant to government. it's something that is critically important to making sure that our money is well spent.

The gov- ernment has tremendous resources through the public affairs bureau to put forward its ideas or its view of what is taking place in the wider community. They are able to put that forward, but the public has certain institutions that it depends upon to be a check and balance on the resources of government. one of those is definitely this l egislature, and one of the most important processes is that estimates process.

What we're doing with this bill is moving forward with five months' worth of spending without the estimates process that we would normally have. [1520] i think most british c olumbians would say, especially before an election, that they want a clear idea of how the money is being spent.

The obligation for legislators and for me is to make sure that we are doing our job, and part of our job is to test each of the things that the gov- ernment asserts and make sure that the views that are expressed to us by the people we represent are brought here and put in front of ministers, in front of ministry staff, so that they can be understood so that the money is ultimately spent wisely. With the ambulance service, there is no question that there are opportunities…. interjections. Deputy Speaker: Members. Member, you must keep on the broad strokes and not the detail. N.

Macdonald: With the health issues, we've talked about seniors and talked about emergency room, and we could talk about paramedics — all of those within the system of estimates. There are opportunities to bring those ideas forward so that the minister responds to them, so that it's on the record, so that we understand that the issues that are identified to us by people in our communities are issues that the government under - stands and will deal with. There are also opportunities to talk about education and really look at the moneys that are going towards education.

We are going to vote, with this interim supply, to provide funding for the system for five months. Y et beneath that, there are all sorts of questions that in the full estimates process we would be able to ask. They're questions that are important and that have, just as with health, implications for people's lives and for safety. in education, the questions that we would be able to ask have implications for our children's future. So they're important. This is the place and the institution where the obligation is upon members to actually fully understand where the money is going, how it is spent.

Very often in this room, if you watch question period, the answers, when they come, tend to be…. i mean, just the nature of question period, you don't get the whole and fulsome debate that you really need. a lot of it is for a particular reason, and that is fundamentally different than the estimates process where you can engage in a back-and-forth series of questions that really allow you to get to the essence of the funding question you have. With education funding, it's clear there are a number of questions that are out there.

The estimates process would certainly give us the opportunity to clearly under- stand the actual financial picture that's there, which we ask boards of education to deal with. instead, we have five months of this year's budget being put forward without that process. There would also be questions about really specific programs that the government has spent money on, like bc eSiS and the 30-minute physical activity questions

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, March 5, 2009 14267 about diagnostic testing. a ll of these things would come into the scope of that debate. Deputy Speaker: Member, you cannot go into the detail. Y ou have to keep on the broad strokes of interim supply. N. Macdonald: o kay. Thank you. n ormally, with an interim supply bill we would have a three-month process. it's usually put in for three months — two months or three months. During that time, there is an estimates process.

That estimates process would have that discussion going on, and the discussion would go on until it's completed, usually at the end of May. During that period, before we go ahead and pass the bill, there are those discussions going on. What we will miss in those five months is that oppor- tunity to clearly see where the money is and to have the discussions that we should fundamentally have. This gov- ernment has made the decision about timing of elections. [1525] The government has made decisions about how we move forward.

We often go into elections without…. i mean, this will be at least the second time that we've gone into an election without the estimates process. a s i say, it's a decision that the government has made. The Minister of Finance has corrected me, saying it's much more than that, many times more than that.

What i would say to the Minister of Finance is that there's no reason why we can't have reasoned debate here and maybe reconsider and think: "Wouldn't it be worthwhile?" i'm presuming we won't have the full opportunity. but if the Minister of Finance is telling us that we'll get started on Monday, i think that would be an excellent thing. So we will start with the debates for a number of the ministries. i think that would be a fine thing to do.

Perhaps i'm incorrect in working on the presumption, and i have been incorrect in the past — not often, i'm sure, but there's fallibility. but i work on the assumption that we will not be able to fully enter into that process. a s i said, even the limited debate on the supplementary estimates was a debate that was worthwhile. The minister has assured me that the estimates pro- cess will begin on Monday, and if that's the case…. interjection. N. Macdonald: Well, i suggest that there are all sorts of realities that will flow from what the minister is saying. Deputy Speaker: order. order, Member. Through the c hair.

N. Macdonald: Through the c hair. i guess i didn't find it in the minister's speech as to exactly how the estimates process was to unfold, but if we were to begin with the estimates process, then that would be something that would be well worthwhile. a s it stands, what we're being asked to do is approve five months of spending, really, without the normal proced- ures that we would have, and there are opportunities to make improvements.

Very often what we see in this h ouse is that we find examples of the lowest common denominator and then set that as the standard — that's one of the problems — rather than looking for ways to make improvements. a s i said, we have a process. n ow the minister says that it's the way it was always done.

There's certainly no reason why it couldn't be improved on, and that's one of the points i'm making. a s we go into an election, there's a tremendous amount of information that people would find useful in terms of how much has been spent on advertising — all sorts of financial information that should be out there in the public realm. The other thing that i think government should consider is…. r ather than using a five-month interim supply bill, there are opportunities to perhaps look at how we could improve it and make sure that there was a full estimates process before we went into an election.

That's something that could be considered. That's some- thing that could be thought about. interjection. N. Macdonald: The minister suggests that we would get all of the estimates done, and it's not a rushed process. it's a process that takes time. There's a process that the government has tried to congest and make shorter. i remember that last year, as i said, there was an estimates process that was supposed to look at b.c. Place, sup- posed to look at the convention centre, supposed to look at arts, culture and tourism, and that was meant to take place in two hours.

The process is already congested. a gain, there's impa- tience about what we do here, but the fact of the matter is that there are many, many key discussions that should take place. if the minister is saying that we would move into estimates, i would look forward to that. i would look forward to a discussion on independent power with the Minister of energy. i think that would be a fascinating discussion. That's something that would be there within the estimates process, given the opportunity. Hon. C. Hansen: Point of order. We have tolerated a lot of latitude in this debate.

The member is clearly outside the scope of what is before the house this afternoon. [1530] We are debating second reading of interim supply, which is a very, very narrow scope of debate. We are not here to debate whether or not there should be or should

british c olumbia Debates14268 t hursday, March 5, 2009 not be estimates process. We are here to debate interim supply. Madam c hair, i would suggest to you that these three members, including the current member, are way beyond that scope. Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Minister. N. Macdonald: a s always, the minister was very gra- cious in how he's expressed himself, and i do appreciate the fact that he may want to move on, on this. but i think you can also appreciate that we are very highly paid to look carefully at how money is being spent.

What is clearly going on here is that there are five months — so that's almost half of the year — that is going to go by without the detailed questioning that is involved in esti- mates, and that's a problem. There is a series of questions that we would have with the budget that has been presented.

That's a process that we want to go through. but rather than that, we are going to move into a bill that allows government to avoid that scrutiny until after the election. n ow, if it is the case that we're going to move into esti- mates on Monday, i think that the minister would find that that's something the opposition would welcome.

That would be a fine opportunity to look carefully at the figures that have been put in front of us in this h ouse. a s i say, it's an opportunity, too, to give the minister feed- back from the people that we represent on issues that are important and to help them make improvements to the programs that are offered.

With bill 5 and the interim supply, there is no question that five months is a long period of time. it is a tremen- dous amount of money that we're looking at, and it is something that would benefit from an estimates process. i'm going to take my seat now. i do look forward to the opportunity, beginning on Monday, to begin the esti- mates process. if the Minister of Finance is offering that, certainly it's something that i would look forward to. i would look forward to getting the e ducation file up first.

That's a ministry that i have an incredible number of ques- tions about, an incredible number of funding questions. i think that most trustees, most teachers, most parents would like clear ideas about where things like the gas tax are in that budget, things like the implications of funding. With that, i'll just save the minister the trouble, and i'll take my seat. i thank you very much for the oppor - tunity to speak. J.

Horgan: it's a pleasure and a privilege to rise in my place today to speak to bill 5, Supply a ct (n o. 1), interim supply, because i can go home today, and when the kids say, "What did you do today, Dad?" i can say: "i helped the Minister of Finance spend almost $14 billion with- out any oversight." That's pretty impressive.

That's not bad for a day's work — $14 billion in one fell swoop. i've been listening intently to the debate on this side. i listened with rapt attention to the official opposition Finance critic from Surrey-Whalley, our learned friend, who advised us about the history and precedents involved in interim supply. i can also understand the Minister of Finance's desire to move quickly through this. [k.

Whittred in the chair.] but i remind him, if he's inclined to jump to his feet at any point over the next half-hour while i'm commenting on this bill, that it is a role and function of members to advise not just those that are here of the views of their constituents but also to advise their constituents on what exactly it is that we're doing here.

Just what goes on in the pointy buildings? i live in the capital regional district. i see my constitu- ents every day. i'm very fortunate in that respect. i know that my colleague from c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke has to fly to c algary to drive back to his house, and i can be home in half an hour.

So i'm very fortunate, and i'm very blessed in that respect, because i get to speak to my constituents every day, face to face. i don't have to phone them at 6:30 or seven o'clock at night after the h ouse has risen. i can see them at the rink. i can see them at the mall. i can see them in their homes. i'm very fortunate in that respect. [1535] When i see them tonight, as we rise at the end of the week, i'll be able to say that i helped the Minister of Finance spend $14 billion by standing in my place and offering my opinions and the opinions, potentially, of my constituents on the importance of a supply bill. i think that there are a couple of things i want to touch on, and if i stray from the scope that the minister is so intent that we keep to, i hope that the c hair will give me some latitude, because i think it's important. i've got some quotes here from Beauchesne's, and i know that the c lerks love it when we quote Beauchesne's. i know that the c lerk loves it when we quote MacMinn. i just want to read something here. it goes as follows: "While cabinet's purpose was to find and maintain sup- port, its closer relationship with parliament provided a direct opportunity for members to question and pub- licize government policy and to maintain a constant scrutiny of government." That's our job.

That's what the Queen pays us for — h er Majesty's l oyal o pposition. For those in the gallery today, the Queen is paying me to stand here and hold the government's feet to the fire, and i fully intend to do that. interjection. J. Horgan: a nd with the aid and comfort and support of the Minister of Forests, i'm sure we can get through

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, March 5, 2009 14269 the next half-hour with some levity and some insights as well, potentially, from the government side. it would be a rarity. a s you know, i'm always gob- smacked when something thoughtful comes from the government benches, but perhaps it will in the next half-hour, and that would be just great indeed. We are in a bit of a conundrum.

Members have spoken about the tradition of about three months for interim supply. i acknowledged to the Minister of Finance that we have to approve spending while we await the passage of the estimates. i understand that. a ll members under- stand that. it happens all the time, year after year. i get that. in an election year we're now in an extraordinary place where we have to spend five and a half months' worth of money without debate, rather than the trad- itional three months, or the historic three months.

That gives me, i believe, an opportunity to talk about the need for parliamentary reform. e very parliament, every opposition speaks to the need to reform the process, pri- marily because we're cut out of the process. There was a back-and-forth between…. i don't know if it will show up in Hansard or not. The capable people at h ansard try and capture all of the debate, but they don't always do it. There was an exchange back and forth between the member for c olumbi

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0305pm-07
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0305pm 07
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	61a70f4cb56b1e1e6ef36e9bc7dbe3eac2ec0723

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