PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 108 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, JUNE 11,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June 11 1970 Tape 1212 page 1. The House met at 10.30 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. liON. J.R.SMALLWOOD(Pr emi er): :tr. -Speaker, I rise to point, not of personal privile~e but of information or explanation. Yesterday in the debate there was some discussion of the cost of bringing wood chips from Lake ilelville to Stephenville. And the cost noH of bringing round pulpwood comp~red with the cost of bringin~ chips and the comparison of the two. Some figures were given but I have made an effort to p,et the accurate figures and they are as follows: In the E.& B. Cowan feasibility report revised to May 13, 1968.

The cost of transporting chips from Lake Melville to Stephenville per cunit. not a cord but a cunit. A cunit is a cord plus one - it is not quite one and · a quarter cords.

It.is a cunit.C UN I T, the cost was as follows: 1970, $5.70. 1971, $6.20; 1972, $7.20; 1973, $7.20; 1974, $7.20; 1975, $6.60; 1976, $6.60; 1977, $6.60; 1978, $6.60; 1979, $6.20; This was an average over the ten year period beginning this year of $6.61 plus the cost of amortizing an arnow1t paying interest on and redeeming capital outlay of about $14 millions that would have to be spent to put in the loading and unloading facilities for chips, and the construction of a wharf. So the ten year average is $6.61 plus amortization of $14 million which would be well over another one dollar. a cunit.

Well over a dollar, which would make it close to eight dollars. The new rate is $5.30, the rate for hauling round wood versus chips. Chips a ten year average of $6.61 plus and the new rate for the round wood is five dollars and - SOME HON. MENBER: Is that a cord? MR.S"!ALL\.JOOD: No cunits, both are cunits. The modern measurement of pulpl-rood is cunits. We are not used to it in this province but cunit is the modern way of measuring pulpwood. C U .II t T, ··cunit. And all the 6('\'-1 ~,.;I.

June 11 1970 Tape 1212 page 2. figures in the E.& B. Cowan feasibility study are given in cunits. We are not used to it I must say I find it difficult to get used to it. I am so used to referrin~ to cords. Presenting Petitions: MR. SMALLWOOD: Hr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a petition from something getting up toward two hundred persons residing in the community of Cormack, in the district of Humber Cast. The prayer of this petition is that the road from Deer Lake through Cormack to the Sir Richard Squires Park be rebuilt and paved. They give a number of reasons for ~his prayer.

One, that this road leads to one of the most famous tourist attractions in Newfoundland namely; Big Falls, in the Sir Richard Squires Park. And second, we anticipate they say the paving of the road from Deer Lake to St. Anthony and we consider this road through Cormaek .. would be a valuable spur in the development of the area. Three, our area being a primary producer, paving would aid the development of the farming industry and woulJ be a boost to the whole economy of the area. Four, from past correspondence we believe that this has been a part of a government long-range plan which should be implemented soon.

Five, it is fitting tnat the access road to a park named for such a famous Newfoundlander in an area which owes its development to his foresight should be a proper one.· I must say I heartily agree with these reasons and that I share them. Other reasons could be cited.

This road of course ceased to be part of the Trans-Canada Highway when the new Trans-Canada was built in lb. 1965. , But tl1e fact that it does not now form part of the Trans-Canada Highway itself ou~ht not,I submit,be allowed ought not to be allowed to derogate fron1 the importance of this particular road especially as it goes to the Sir Richard Squires Park. 'I heartily endorse the prayer of the petition G925

June 11 1970 Tape 1212 page 3. and asked that it be received and referred to the depart~ent to which it relates. ~~.G.}~RDLN: On behalf of my absent collea~ue the member for Humber East I would like to have a few words to say on this petition. Knowing the area of Cormack and how it has been developed by the veterans of World War 11, knowing the great effort they put into the whole area there of trying to farm and log and the great troubles they have had with telephone service and power,.! think it would be only fit;ting actually to,on that basis alone,to be able to give that community some decent road.

Now I would like to say also that I believe (the minister of Highways can correct me)there is a new survey of a road which will completely do away with that section,almost.I· believe they have already surveyed and I think it would probably take a new bridge across the Humber. So, before they do that I suppose they will be looking into this new road concept that will go on down to the National Park. Cormack, Sir, has always been a great producer of vegetables and beef and timber in that area.

Going farther down.to the Sir Richard Squires <•ational Park tr suppose al1110st every membeT of the Rouse has been there} it is known or as we grew upit was known as the Big Falls ,one of the most famous salmon areas on the \vest Coast and lb . probably all ~ewfoundland. I would like to see it Sir,• and I hope that the -petition will go tl1rough. MR.SPEAKER: The han. the Premier asks leave to introduce a Bill,"An Act Fur:ther To Amend The Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission Act, 1965," Bill read a first time ord~ed read a second time on tomorrow.

Corr~ittee on Supply: MUNICIPIL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING: Chairman of Committee,i ·:r. Hodder: MR.CROSBIE: 1321-05-01, just to conclude on this Mr. Chairman, this is G926

June 11 1970 Tapv 1212 page 4. the Blackhead J:oad Urban ::tenewal ScherJe. I notice here the amount to be voted is $2,258,000 and the appropriation in aid 1which would be fron1 the Government of Canada,is $841,800, which would make it appear that our share this year is $1,004,000 about,and the rest is from the Govern- lb. ment of Canada this year.

WouUI the minister tell us what it now appears the total cost of this scheme is and how it is shared, how much of it is coming in loans from the Federal Government and how much in grants and how much the Province has to put up itselfl I do not know if he can elaborate on what we were discussing yesterday. I think yesterday the minister said construction should be completed around the end of August and the people there themselves would have to decide what kind of municipality they are going to have there or whether they will wish to come within the city of St.

John's or have their own municipality or come under the Metropolitan Area Board. I believe the minister said yesterday that people in that area do not like the concept of subsidized rental housing. They would prefer some other kind of housing.

My suggestion is,and I do not know costly it would be and the minister says that the Government of Canada will not agree, perhaps they ldll change their rruimds, d1e answer to Blackhead Road might be individual units dwellinr, houses, where the people are g'oing to be dispossessed, which they could rent and with the rental going towards eventual ownership of the home • Now I know th~t that does not fit within the present rules and regulations of crmc but I think in this particular case, or an urban renet-1al scheme like this . one, the Government of Canada should make the rules more flexible.

It would not even need to apply to every urban renewal scheme. this might ·be an area where shell houses, where there could be some considerable experimentation with shell houses. But the people who are going to lose their own homes,I think.should be given some kind of choice like that.One can sympathize with them that they do not 69Z7

June 11 1970 Tape 1212 page 5. want to move into subsidized rental housing which they will never own themselves, t~at they want to acquire ownership of the new dwelling accommodation that they are going to move into. So that there is the shell housing that could possibly be tried there or some new scheme that will give them a rental-purchase, some rental-purchase scheme for lb . them. Doubtless the minister has got quite a difficult problem at Blackhead Road to deal with and we all sympathize with him in the problems that he has up there.

I think that some decision will have to be made shortly and communicated to the people who live on the Blackhead Road with respect to this housing issue. It seems to be the great issue up there. There have been other construction problems. on these costs - So if the minister could enlighten us MR .E.DAWE: Mr. Chairman, first to deal with the housing, I do now give the estimate of cost, that of matters raised by the hon. member.

Aa regards to .lllle housing as I stated yesterday that this is under consideration of the government 1 ls very actively being considered and when we are in a position to advise the people of the decision of the government it would be made known to them. I have attended two meetings on the Blackhead since I have been the minister and I am planning to meet with the householders union again. I made it clear to them that my office is open to them any time and that when the government arrive at the decision with regard to housin~ on the Blackhead I will b-=..· most happy to make this known to them.

But as I say it is still under active consideration and I am not in the position to add any further information than what I did on our estimates of yesterda,. With regard to the hon. member's request for the total cost of the scheme the total cost for the completion of the scheme, with the revised figures is $5,180,880. Five million, one hundred and eighty thousand f>J.ght hundred and eighty dollars. :!R.S!·1ALLHOOD: What is that for? HR.DAWE: 1his is for water and sewerage, acquisition of land -

lb. June 11 1970 Tape 1212 page 6. MR. SMALLI!OOD: What does acquisition mean, purchase - HR.DAWE: Purchase - the right-of way for the new street alignment, l!treet paving and the erection of utility poles for street lighting and some house construction where the houses would have to be removed in the scheme and purchase of property and for the general carrying out of the scheme. This total $5,180,8SO,the recoveries- ~. SMALL\WOD: This will be the total cost when the project is finished in August. ~1R.DAh'E: In August, the end of August. From CMHC

section 23B granted 23 $2,590,440, grant CMHC. under section/of the Act, 23C a further grant of $1,million, (I am sorry) a loan of $1,545, 078. Therear~ recoveries $545,643 shared equally between CMHC and the Province. The Province shared $272,822 and recoveries $272,822,to go to CMHC. The total cost to the Province will be $2,317,619. MR. S~1ALWOOD: Approximately two and a-quarter million. It will cost the government two and a-quarter million and a bit over. And Otta~1a a total of $2.5 million and almost $2.5 mil~ion from us. It is almost fifty-fifty. MR.DAI.'E: That is correct. About fifty-fifty.

With regard to a form of local government or representation on the Blackhead 1as I said, this ruay be decided by tht people themselves, or we may continue as at present under the Metropolitan Joard. Hr. Leo Stead 1 as you know,is our chairman. And his position is not just to attend meetings. His position is more or less confined,mostly as a town manager. He is very actively connected with the Blackhead scheme. He was chairman of the implementation committee and he is a general supervisor of all activities of the ~etropolitan Board throughout the area of St. John's. lffi.CROSBIE: Who is this - MR.DAWE: Hr.

Leo Stead. He is at his office regularly every day and his is. not just an honorary position just to attend meetings but he attends his office 6929

lb. June 11 1970 Tape 1212 page 7. every day and he is the real officer behind the Metropolitan 'Board and he is quite active with the development at the Blackhead As I say; we may continue to have Blackhead be under the supl!rvision of the metropolitan board or they may de~ide or request some form of government of their own free will at some later time.in the future. MR.SMALL\VOOD: I can tell the hon. minister that Hr. Stead is not willing to stay an awful lot longer in that job which is so completely onerous as a part time job. It·really should be a full time job. He is not prepared to give full time to it.

MR.DAI~E: I agree Mr. Premier, I am aware of that fact and we may have to have a replacement in a·month or so'sr.time. But if the position, I think I made it quite clear on the amount of money is involved, and r~gard to housing and regard to local government. MR.CROSBIE: This amonnt of course does not include any public housing up there of course, and this is something that now has to be decided whether there will be and what time, public housing. MR.DAWE: That is correct. HR.CROSIHE: If, let us say there was no public housing built there.

It ,.-as decided not to have any subsidized rental housing, because the people living there do not want it or will not accept it. Then what would be the position on the amendment to the Family Homes EKpropriation Act?I would assume that if there was no public housing provided a compensation should be based on the 1964 Family Homes Expropriation Act and not on the amendment. Because the amendment provides that people who live in a substandard house or a house unfit for human habitation would get the market value so long as public housing was made available.

But if public housingvere not made available then they should be compensated under the old Act. Would th•~ be the position? ~{R.DA~.JE: Yes, that would be position Hr. Chairman. 'the houses would have to be le(l there but 1 as I made it quite clear to the cmamittee that this is 69~0

lb. June 11 1970 Tape 1212 page 8, Wlder active consideration of th.e government and we are considering other means and possioilities t.o help the people there, and when this decision is known we "~o..-ould be TtlOSt happy to make it known to them. I know their provincial member 'Hr. Nolan , the minister of Supply, is quite active in this and naturally 1in his position in the government,he will be requesting and naturally will be interested that a decision will be made as soon as possible and thea ,as· soon as this is decided ,as I -say, we will be happy to meet with representatives of the householders' union on the Blackhead and make this known to them, I can add nothing further. 69~1

June 10, 1970, Tape 1213, Page 1 -- apb MR. CHAIRMAN: Does 02 carry? MR. CROSBIE: 02 Mr. Chairman, can the minister gi~e the House any information now on Corner Brook West and Mundy Pondf Both the urban renewal schemes there have been ready, of course they were planning for years and it was announced that both would have to be cut down because ttawa had to cut back on their amount of money that they would make available for urban renewal schemes.

Can the minister tell us now just what is planned to do in Corner Brook West and Mundy Pond, and save us asking when we come to the next item, and when it is likely to start? MR. DAWE: Mr. Chairman, Mundy Pond and the Clty of Corner Brook are practically in the same position only that you could say probably that Corner Brook may be a little further advanced than Mundy Pond. The position is this, that, final detailed plans should be received from the ~lty of Corner Brook and from the City of St. John's within three months .

I think hon. members will realize that there was quite an adjustment in the original plan due to the limitation of the money provided under the urban renewal Act,as announcedby Mr. Andreas, and it was made clear by the bon. Premier,in his announcement early this year of the limitation of money involved. This necessitated more complete planning and survey work to make certain that the scheme that we planned to develop in both the ity of St. John's and the City of Corner Brook keeps within the limitations of the money provided.

This is what possibly I would say caused this delay in submission of their plans to Government. But, this is really - the engineers have been;like I say~going through it with a fine tooth comb just to make sure that they are within the limitations of the money provided. This is what I say probably added to the time in receiving the application. The CLty of Corner Brook's application should be ready within one month, the eity of St. John's application should be ready within three months, and once these applications are received and Government approval is given, we will submit 69~2

June 10, 1970, Tape 1213, Page 2 -- apb them immediately to C.M.H.C. at Ottawa and we would expect approval for implementation within a month after receipt of our application on behalf of the City of St. John's and the City of Corner Brook. With this procedure forthcoming and carried out, we would hope that we would be in the position then to start immediately with the purchase of property for street alignment, and clearing of the right of way and the erection or moving of utility poles. If the city of St. John's or the city of Corner Brook decided to call tenders - tenders would be called then immediately.

Once the approval is given, the work could begin early in the spring of next year. I think it is fair t~ say that major construction on both schemes will not begin until next year. The city of Corner Brook I think ha' decided that they are going to try to implement their scheme with their own forces. At this time they can utilize their money and go further, stretch their money to that extent~and they have decided to carry out their part of the scheme with their own forces and maybe it will be the same with the Gity of St. John's.

If they decide they may do that as well, that will be a decision for the city to make, and if they decide to do that then they will no doubt start late this fall in preparation for major construction work in the spring • If the city decided not to do that, well naturally we would call tenders later this fall for the work in the Mundy Pond area. The work will involve,as I said, street alignment, water and sewage facilities, storm sewers and street paving.

The exact detail of the area of the scheme at Corner Brook is approximately ninety acres, the present population is 1,740, the number of houses in the scheme is 294, the number of existing houses to be demolished is seventeen, the number of existing houses to be moved is twenty-nine. MR. SMALLWOOD(J.R.): Does the bon. gentleman have these figures to give a copy to the press for example? These are terribly interesting figures. MR. DAWE: I will obtain extra copies, I did not come prepared for extra copies, but I will make them available. G9:;3

June 10, 1970, Tape 1213, Page 3 -- apb MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, •••••• MR. CROSBIE: The minister is not finished yet. MR. DAWE: The number of new lots in the scheme is approximately 144, and land for schools 1.25 acres. There arc- 15,617 feet, lineal feet of road to be constructed and paved, 9,011 MR. SMALLWOOD: Where is all this - this is where? MR. DAWE: In Corner Brook,in the Watson Road area. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. If the minister would draw a very wide line, or a wide gulf between Mundy Pond and Corne .r Brook West, so that there will not be any misunderstanding of what he is referring to. MR.

DAWE: Well I am referring now Mr. Chairman to ••••••• MR. SMALLWOOD: You are talking about widening roads and house, where? MR. DAWE: What I am referring to now is strictly in the Watson Road area all within the City of Corner Brook. MR. SMALLWOOD: I love to hear this because ••••••• MR. DAWE: And we have 9, 011 lineal feet of sanitary sewer ••••• MR. CROSBIE: Whose district is this? MR. SMALLWOOD: Someone or other. MR. DAWE: 10, 664 lineal feet of water mains, 12,965 feet of culverts, and storm sewers, catch basins and fire hydrants.

This is the scheme in Corner Brook and I will try to give you s.ome details now on the scheme at Mundy Pond,for the information of the committee. MR. CROSBIE: This is the revised scheme now you are talking about? MR. DAWE: This is the revised scheme I am referring to,within the limitations of the 3.5 million porvided from Ottawa. This is matched half by the Province and half by the Federal Government. The Province here in both schemes, makes a total of $3.5 million and $3.5 million from Ottawa. The scheme at Mundy Pond within the City of St.

John's, the location is bounded by Cashin Avenue, Blackmarsh Road, Jenkin's Camp Road New Pennywell Road, the Old Pennywell Road and Empire Avenue. The area is some 600 acres. The present land use is about 720 dwellings, ten commercial G 9:: ·1

June 10, 1970, Tape 1213, Page 4 -- apb buildings, twenty-two industrial buildings, four schools and six churches. The proposed land use is not precisely known until the s~heme is completed. The scheme itself will follow along the lines similar to Corner Brook's. As I said, we have not the exact details because, as I say, they are not as far advanced in their planning as the City of Corner Brook, and we have not received the official - the plans from the city of St. John's or their consulting engineers but, they will take the same pattern as this development at Corner Brook. MR.

CROSBIE: Would the principal thing in Mundy Pond also be water and sewage? The water line now is - or are both to St. Theresa's School, is it water and sewer or just water? MR. DAWE: Water and sewage and this will be the first part of the scheme. It is going to be implemented as a water and sewage system first. MR. CROSBIE: Is the position still that - with reference to both these schemes, are the eities of Corner Brook and St. John's being required to contribute any money to these two projects, or are they both entirely Provincial and Federal? MR.

DAWE: They are both entirely the responsibility of the Federal Government and the Provincial Government and we have already extended assistance to them in their planning for both the schemes. MR. MYRDEN: The Corner Brook West renewal will be started this fall or was it both you said? MR. DAWE: I would say that they should be in a position to start this fall.

They are doing quite a bit of work there now, and planning now within Corner Brook and as far as work - as soon as the application is received and approval of the Federal Government, I understand definitely the City of Corner Brook is going to proceed with their own forces and it will be up to the city itself~once the approval is given, Sut they should be in a position to start this late summer or early fall. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few brief comments. There is not too much left to be said, because this debate is very wide 69~5

June 10, 1970, Tape 1213, Page 5 -- apb ranging, and a lot of it has made much sense to me. I think it is generally agreed that there are some serious problems in terms of housing, depending on what area one might be living, and depending on what salary or income category which one might find themselves locked in.

Certainly in the larger incorporated areas, where we have? where the town councils have adopted the National Building Code regulations, and they have also established certain regulations of their own, certainly in those areas_it becomes virtually impossible for a person to ever obtain a home of his own, unless he is in a salary range certainly from about $10,000 upwards. On the other hand Mr. Chairman, people in the income bracket $4,000 down also find themselves in quite a jam and have to depend almost entirely on subsidized rental units.

This leaves,Sir, a vast majority I suppose of the population , the residents in the larger areas, in the category between $4,000 and $10,000. This is where the majority of the people are - the middle income people. They are in an almost impossible situation, because of the fact that they are making more than $4,000 a year, with the present subsidized rental rates, scales - it means that it is not to their advantage to take advantage of subsidized rental units because of the high rents involved.

On the other hand, because they are not making sufficient money or up to $10,000 and above, it means that they cannot take advantage of Central Mortgage and Housing plans and ever hope to own a home themselves. Possibly one of the main contributing factors here is the cost of land. I know that land in St. John's and Corner Brook and some other areas, but St. John's and Corner Brook sells in the order of six to seven to eight thousand dollars for a service lot.

It has been said by many people of this Province that one of the main ·contributing factors to the high cost of land in those areas is becau•e the land has had to be purchased from farmers or from some other people - in other words there has been land speculation and price speculation. But it is not entirely true,Sir, because in the land of Gander where I have the great honour to reside - in the town of Gander, all of the land is God's land -not owned by Harold Collins, it is

June 10, 1970, Page 6 Tape #1213 -- apb not owned by any person around there. It is land which is crown land and a lot of it is owned by C.M.H.C. but at least --- C.M.H.C. did not pay out any cash to obtain the land, the land was just deeded over to them, or granted fur over to them. So~all practical purposes the land was free.

In the meantime to purchase a serviced lot in Gander, even though there was no outlay for the cost of land in the first place - · to purchase a serviced lot in Gander now in the order of sixty by a hundred or sixty-five by a hundred whatever it might be, the cost varies from around $4,200 and possibly goes as high as $5,500, which Mr. Chairman, reflects the cost of developing~the land, water and sewer and sidewalks and street lighting, pavement and so on and so forth. Now it has been said that those costs should not be so high.

And while we might argue that all day, personally I do not see where we can get that cost down because generally the servicing contracts are put out on tender, and 1 suppose the lowest tender generally is accepted,depending upon the qualifications of the developer to perform the work. And certainly with wages rising there is always demands for wage increases and equipment prices are gradually going up as a result of that. All in all, there is certainly no ray of light, no hope in sight at all, that the cost of developing land will ever come down. Indeed Mr.

Chairman, 1 would suggest that it will gradually increase, which means that the cost of serviced land can be expected to continually increase, and of course that will preclude more and more people from ever having opportunity to obtain a piece of land and build a home. Much has been said about this particular topic Mr.

Chairman, and 1 believe that the time has come, certainly it has come, if not long past, when the minister and his department should be looking at some of the larger areas, and try to come up with some plan whereby land can be serviced without th~ cost being immediately reflected in the lot ~urchased price. There are several ways to do this. 1 suppose we could come up with some sort of a lease-hold system. 1 know that it worked in St. John's 7 some years ago. 1 am not sure if it is continued there now. I know it did work in certain G9~7

. June 10, 1970, Tape 1213, Page 7, --ap b areas where the St. John's Housing Corporation built homes, generally it is lease-hold land, Another attack might be that municipalities and provincial government, this is the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation,would develop the land · and amortize the cost of it over a period of fifty years or a hundred years, whatever it might be. But we have to come up with aome plan Mhereby the cost of servicing the land is not reflected in selling price to the prospective home owner right away.

Because in a great many cases, while a man might be able to come up with the necessary down-payment to satisfy C.H.H.C. or whatever institution it might be, he might be able to come up with enough cash to satisfy the institution for a down-payment on the structure~ and he might well be able to meet the monthly payments, but Sir, when he is faced with the high cost of a piece"of land, he checks around a few places.

I have gone through thi~ Hundreds, not hundreds but certainly dozens of people have come to me, and eventually those people have to throw their hands up in despair and realize that they just cannot carry on and hope to ever own a home of their own. Now Sir, a few days ago it was mentioned that the subsidized rentals were high, that is the scales were high. I understood from the minister that this is being - hopefully,will be corrected - the scale would be brought down and made more realistic in terms of people's ability to pay. Hr.

Chairman, last year, thirty-two subsidized rental units were constructed and eventually put on the market in the Town of Gander. I believe that in the first place there were about 120 applications submitted for those thirty-two unit~~which is indicative to me and certainly is indicative to people interested in housing ~ Now there is a great need for housing in the area, and certainly there is great interest in this particu1ar type of housing, for reasons I just gave.

In the first place 1 believe, the municip~lity requested fifty units as a trial measure, subsequently thirty-two were constructed and I understand that the remainder are to be constructed this year. I do not know how many extra ones. But certainly there is a great need for this particular type of housing. And 1 would also suggest

June 10, 1970, Tape 1213, Page z -- apb Mr. Chairman, to the minister and his offidals,tl:lat we should be thinking in terms of dispersing those units throughout the municipality, not only in Gander, but in any 111unicipality. I believe it is a terrible mistake. We have seen tl)e results of the past where this particular type of housing and tenant have been lumped together in a certain

section of a community and we know what the result has been. In the town of u929

June 1:~ 1970 Tape 11214 Page l JW MR. COLLINS: The town of Gander - we have been fortunate in that it is a new town, and have had some very good planning regulations. A lot of the credit is due to some of the officials which are now in the minister's department, and I think that it would be a shame - in fact I would go so fa~ as to say it would be criminal to permit all subsidized rental units -(if there is a stigma to that I do not, there might very well be) to permit those units to go up side by side, all of the street, both sides of the street I believe, is a terrible mistake.

And in the southeast land development in Gander where they have I believe in the order of three to four hundred building lots - certainly I would like to see those units dispersed, so that they will be intermixed with other types of housing and I am sure the minister knows what I am talking about here, and I believe it will be to the benefit of all concerned, the tenants and the city fathers, so on and so forth.

Before I sit down, perhaps I might mention that there has been a lot of activity and a lot of talk about the need for urban renewal plans, and I suppose we get the name urban renewal because generally those plans take place in the larger urban communities. Certainly St. John's the city of St. John's has done marvellously well with the subsidized rental units and other government subsidized plans. I do not know of a city across Canada where there has been such participation in public housing as there has been in St. John's. And I notice now that some great efforts are taking place in Corner Brook.

I ·would like to draw to the minister's attention that there are a great number of areas across Newfoundland, some of them in my own district - in towns like Glenwood and Bishop's Falls and Botwood - developments connecting Botwood and Sishop's Falls,along by the access road, where people,Mr. Chairman,are literally living in the type shack the Premier 69(0

June 1 ~ 1970 Tape jl214 Page 2 JW described a little while ago, when he was talking about shell housing. A lot of people are living in tar-papered shacks. A family, a man and his wife and possibly one or two children, in a one-room tar-papered shack. Now what does the minister have in mind for relieving the housing problems in those areas~ I am sure they deserve just as much attention as St. John's and Corner Brook - granted there are more of them here, but as certainly the problem is just great,in terms of the individual problem is just as great in some of the more rural areas as it is in St. John's.

I would like for the minister to react to· that, and also indicate to the Committee whether he has receive applications from the municipalities of Bishop's Falls and Botwood for any subsidized rental units. And since he made an announcemen that some units were to be supplied at Gander, now many does he have in mind, and also if he does have any idea as to whether shell housing would be introduced into the town of Gander this year? MR. DAWE: Mr.

Chairman, in reply,before we carry that Item, for the information of the bon. membe~ we are planning this extra twenty-two houses in Gander, subsidized housing, and we are planning some shell housing as well. With regard to the cost of land, this is a problem that is confronting all levels of government, munic~pal, federal and provincial throughout the nation.

I suppose there is scarcely a day or a week passes that reference is not maae to it, and naturally there is no other way that the cost of land can be reduced to the owner unless the Provincial and Federal Government are prepared to subsidize 9 the extension themselves to these particular lots. Until such time as the Federal and Provincial Government are prepared to do that, there is no other way that we can foresee whether land costs can be brought down, and even with the leased land, this 69~1

. June 11, 1970 Tape 111214 Page 3 JW could run to about - the cost of that to a householder could run to about thirty dollars for interest charges. And that would be quite extensive over a long period of time.

And as I say, we were wrestling with this problem, and all the government~ of canada are wrestling with this problem every day and that until there is a change in government policy, both from the Federal point of view and the provincial point of view, the cost of land will have to remain the same to further the cost of extending services, with regard to housing throughout other parts of the more rural areas. MR. COLLINS: The cost of land is not brought down. The Governmen is going to have to get involved deeper and deeper and deeper in subsidized rental units, there is no d~ubt about that. MR.

DAWE: I agree with the hon. member,subsidized housing is much cheaper than home ownership - the reluctance in Newfoundla especially in the rural areas - MR. COLLINS: How does that fit in with the Newfoundland people who traditionally like to own their own homes? MR. DAWE: That is a point I was just going to raise - particularl in the rural areas - there is the problem. Most of these people are not used to paying monthly rents, and naturally they rebel against it.

So here is the problem - unless some more definition of government policy,on the federal and provincial level, is more clarified we will have this problem with us until such time - until it is remedied in this manner. We see no other magic wand to change this position. And I think I would just like to add one point 1 if I may before we close on our estimates, to With regard~the announcement I made the other day regarding the water and sewerage facilities, I did mention here,with regard to Wesleyville, councils as possible. ~e are going to try to involve as many We had an estimated cost for the town • ·. G9·12

June 11, 1970 Tape 111214 Page 4 JN of Wesleyville in this amount of $365,000, and as I mentioned at that time, the mayor of Wesleyville advi~ed me by telephone that their estimated cost was $150,000, and then in the meantime I did contact officials of my department to investigate the proposition from the town of Wesleyville. And I was pleased to get the report yesterday from our engineer· · Mr.

Dyke, and he confirms the submission made by the town of Wesleyville, and they are confident, barring unforeseen circumstances, that this project could be carried out within the limitation of the amount specified by the town of Wesleyville. And I am going to authorize one portion of Wesleyville, that is probably Pound Cove or Valleyfield, to undertake one portion of the project that they want there and make a detailed study and close observati• and see if they can keep within the limitations of the money they estimated.

And this will be supervised by the officials of my department, to make certain that it is installed in the proper manner and to make preparation and safeguard, especially against frost. It will be at the proper depth, and this could be a guideline for other councils throughout the Province, and we are confident, as I stated yesterday, that the list we had contained many small projects, some with extensions, some with plastic lines.

And along these lines and with a submission we had from MacLarens Agency, as I said, about seventeen to nineteen million dollars - this we could carry out - this project as I intimated to the House the other night. It was not just a figure that we just pulled out of the hat. There has been active consideration by the officials of the department for four years, a~ the hon. member for St. John's West knows. Each year requests come in - a preliminary survey is made on each one of them,to estimate the cost, and we are confident that this figure is realia · tic.

June 11 1 1970 Tape 1214 Page 5 JW MR. JONES: I move that the block provision salary increase change from $24,000 to read $34,600. That the block division for &alary increases in new posts be amended from $24,000 to $34,600, that is a net increase of $10,600. The new total then would read, before we get to the other amendments, to $10,055,800, and I have a note of one only amendment under 1311-07-01 - a token vote of $100, so the new total Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing should now read $10,055,900, and I so move it. MR. CHAIRMAN:• 14 Fisheries- 1401-01 MR. WINSOR: Mr.

Chairman piloting those Estimates through the House, the Department of Fisheries, I find myself in an unfortunat 1 position, having just shortly taken over as acting Minister of Fisheries. And with the continuation almost of the Session of the House, it has provided very little time for me to sit down and discuss the functions of that department, or the Estimates with the officials. And as we all know Sir, the loss of - the death of Mr. Ross Young is quite a blow at this particular time. On Friday afternoon Mr.

Young and I got together for a short while, and he agreed to give me some information regarding his particular part of the Department of Fisheries. And we agreed on Saturday morning that we would sit down together for a couple of hours and go through the whole thing in his Estimates. But at eight o'clock on Saturday morning I had a telephone call advising me that Mr. Young had taken ill and was in hospital. And of course we know that I had no other opportunity to discuss anything with Mr. Young.

And Sir, it is a sad and moving coin- cidence today that I have to stand here and pilot those Estimates, and Mr.Xoung is being buried this afternoon at two o'clock. I thought I would start the Estimates by giving a brief

summary of the activities of the Department of Fisheries. In many respects 1969 was a remarkable year in the long history of New- ' 69~4

June 11, 1970 Tape 11214 Page 6 foundland Fisheries. The landed weight of all species exceeded one billion pounds, and was valued at more than twenty-seven million dollars. An all-time record both for the quantity ~aken and the financial returns to the fishermen. At the same time it should be pointed out that the Labrador Fishery which had been recovering from its almost total extin~tion in the early 'SO's, or the total failure. And all those engaged suffered crippling losses, But Sir, we have adopted a policy for the on Labrador floaters/which I will give some information later on in the Estimates.

The remarkable increase in our annual catches during the p~st few years has been almost entirely due to the rapid development in the herring industry, which reached a total of J~ over 368,000,000 pounds as against approximately 30,000,000 pounds ten years ago. This rapid development is due mainly to the combined efforts of the Federal and Provincial Department of Fisheries, which undertook experimental fisheries on a very experimental fishing, on a very modern scale in recent years.

The success of these experiments resulted in experienced firms setting up reduction plants at various points along the southwest coast, with a result that partly all our catchhas gone to fish meal. However, there is a grave fear amongst scientists that unless restrictions are placed on total annual amounts taken, depletion will soon set in, that could result in the destruction of the valuable resource, a situation which has already occurred ' in the Northeast Atlantic and in the Pacific Ocean of British Columbia.

This Government,in co-operation with the Federal Government,is already taking steps to discourage the establishment of further reduction plants and a real effort is being made to divert more of this precious food resource to high-class food for human consumption.· Now I noticed a couple of days ago where the Federal Minister of Fisheries.Mr. Davis,

June 11, 1970 Tape #1214 Page 7 JW announced an experimental program to be carried out this year on the caplin• I would assume that,if this experiment proves successful, that caplin will be used for fish meal and what-have- you, rather than the herring, and herring will be diverted to more human consumption.

The ground fish catch shows little change from other years and the fact that a greater effort is required to maintain the present annual landed weights, indicates that perhaps we have reached annual maximum sustained yields, lf we are to maintain existing stocks in the western ocean, Eminent scientists have expressed fears that depletion has already set in, but to date there appears to be insufficient evidence to provide conclusive proof.

In order to diversify our catch and remove our dependents on the ground fish, the department is encouraging the development of the crab fishery, together with the production of more turbot and attempts are being made to develop our shrimp resource. This on work is being done~a cost-sharing basis with the Federal Departmen of Fisheries, and to date the results have been most encouraging. To the efforts by the Federal Government,to stabilize the fresh frozen and salt fish marketing 9 returns have been quite successful.

As a result indications at the present time point to a very prosperous fishery this year, And the setting up of a salt fish development corporation, which this Government has advocated for years, should do much in removing the uncertainties and precarious aspects of this oldest industry. Now Sir, in 1968, the destruction of inshore fishing gear,by off-shore draggers, reached such an alarming and widespread proportion that the Province institute a special fishing gear replacement program, which to March 31st. 1969, when it terminated, amounted ir G9~6

June 11, 1970 Tape #1214 Page 8 JW payments to fishermen to approximately $400,000. The cause and effect of this program confirmed to the Federal authorities the urgent necessity of establishing a twelve mile limit. And we sincerely hope that regulation will be effectively enforced. In other areas of fisheries assistance and development, I might say1 Mr.

Chairman, that during the summer and early Fall alleged dragger destuction of inshore fishing gear reached such a disastrous level in the Port-aux-Choix - Port Saunders of the northwest coast, as to completely immobilize the fishing efforts of forty-seven crew~ comprising 180 fishermen, to promptly allevia the resulting distress and hardship on fisherm-en involved • the ~er~nt co-operated with the fishermen in the area_ affected, through their association, whe~eby a program of loans and grants was devised for implementation by the Fisheries Loan Board of Newfoundland, to make available approximately 800 gillnets to replace those destroyed.

The Federal Government has declared its intention to reserve the Gulf of St. Lawrence as a protected Canadian fishing zone, and if this materializes, the fishermen of the northwest coast may look forward to a brighter fishing future. The Inshore Assistance Program - the Inshore Fishery Assistance Program was continued in 1969 and during the year, 134 boats,measuring from twenty-four to thirty-five feet in length,were built, amounting to $30,178 paid to the fishermen. The number of small boats built under this program since its inception - in 1962, total 2,976. MR. SMALLWOOD: Say that again. MR.

WINSOR: The number of small boats built since the program was brought in, in 1962 - MR. SMALLWOOD: What program? MR. WINSOR: The bounty of small boats - the Provincial Governmen

June 11, 1970 Tape 11214 MR. SMALLWOOD: The Newfoundland Government? MR. WINSOR: Right. MR. SMALLWOOD: How many boats? MR. WINSOR: 2,976 - MR. SMALLWOOD: 3,000 boats! MR. WINSOR: Right. On which the bounty paid to the inshore fishexmen by the Government of this Province - amounted to $567,829 - MR. SMALLWOOD: What did they cost? We contributed half a million - what did the 3,000 boats cost? MR. WINSOR: Well I would say twice that much. MR. SMALLWOOD: We contributed about half. MR. WINSOR: About half - maybe a little more than half.

The purchase of gillnets dropped substantially in 1969 when the fishermen purchased only 14,196 by comparison with 21,000 JW in the previous year. And the amount of bounty paid was $292,000 as compared to $457,000 in 1968. So there was a considerable drop in the demand for gillnets. And I ·can understand that, Mr. Chairman, because there is a possibility of fishermen using too many gillnets, and the quality of fish that come out of the gillnets leave,something to be desired, especially if they leave their nets out over-night.

In addition to the bounty paid on small boats and gillnets, Government also paid $16,000 as bounty on trawl lines. It is also interesting to note that there is a decline in the purchase of trawl lines for inshore fishermen over the past three years. MR. SMALLWOOD: What is that again? MR. WINSOR: There is a decline in the purchase of trawl lines over the past three years - MR. SMALLWOOD: Why? 69~8

June 11, 1970 Tape tl214 Page 10 Jw MR. WINSOR: That is a good question. I suppose that more people are adapting to nets rather than trawls, A trawl is quite a laborious task for a fisherman. He has to provide bait, but if this fishery can be developed by gillnets, it is much easier. The total expenditure on bounty payable to the inshore fishermen by the Government of this Province Mr. Chairman - I think this is worthy of note - on small boats, units and trawl lines during the past eight years amounts to $3,089,000.

That is the provincial government's contribution to the fishermen in supplying them with boats, gillnets, and trawl lines. Vessel construction and inspection - twenty-two new fishing vessels consisting of eighteen standard longliners. Two standard fifty-foot fishing vessels •. One eighty-six foot sealing vessel, and one other fishing vessel, totalling 618 gross tons were completed during 1969, and the Fishing Ships Bounties Act, l9SS,in addition, eight standard longliners, one standard sixty foot fishing vessel, and four other vessels are under construction.

All of these crafts are eligible for provincial bounty and five of them qualify for the federal subsidy. During the past year, the Department of Fishery in conjunction with th~ Department of Justice, have amended fish inspection and marketing legislation to complement similar legislation recently enacted by the Federal Government at Ottawa. In this connection we have been successful in obtaining the services of the Federal Department of Fisheries to carry out the necessary inspection work and this will save a considerable sum of money to the tax payers of Newfoundland. Marketing: 1 G949

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1215 PK - 1 MR. WINSOR: Now, Sir, the Fisheries Development Authority, Mr. Young)did prepared a very short

summary for me, and I suppose it was the last thing he did in office on Friday afternoon. And it was dealing with a joint shared projects. The Industrial Development services of the Department of Fisheries and Forestry and the Authority, annually entered into an agreement with respect to certain exploring operations, fishing gear demonstrations, food processing and experiments, surveys for new resources etc. And I am sure you will be interesting in knowing the program for next year that out of an expenditure of $825,000, if the funds are voted here today, almost $600,000 will be recovered from the Federal Government. I think this will do as a

summary, Mr. Speaker, and now we can proceed with the estimates. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the problems of the fisherieshavebeen with us for years, I suppose, and probably fall into two categories of stocks or supply, and the prices which are paid to the fishermen. It is realized by all bon. members what our fishermen have gone through down through the years, where they have had to wait and see if the fish , were going to come to the rocks,years ago. Now they can go a little further afield, but you had to wait first of all to see if any fish were come to shore.

The fish did come, and they had a good voyage, they had to wait and see what the terms were going to be. Then, Sir, it always seemed in the year when the fish did come, were plentiful, eating the rocks, as the fishermen would say, they probably had a real good catch but that would always be the year when the price was down. Next year, when supplies, stocks were scarce, the prices seemed to rise a little bit. I suppose it was supply and demand, I do not know.

At any rate, Sir, fishermen have been the unfortunate ones down through the years in terms of any worth-while return for their labours which they put into the fishery. This Government have announced, down through the years, many, many great fisheries development programs. They always seem to be made just prior to an election or in an election year or during an election campaign. Of course they would then all fizzle out for about four years until another election rolled around G95U

JUne 11th. 1970 Tape 1215 PK - 2 MR. COLLINS: . and again the fishermen were used with big announcemnts , big fisheries programs hopefully of course to keep them endeared to ti··'" Government in power. Sir, possibly the greatest problem in the fisheries now is the Labrador fishery. As the minister indicated just now, there was a serious decline, in fact it almost disappeared for some years.

Then in recent years it made some sort of a comback It was very doubtful and last yenr, I suppose, with the complete failure on the Labrador, certainly completes failure in terms of the floaters who went down there! many people,who thought there maybe a future there, suddenly became discouraged again, and for a good reason because the losses suffered last year meant captains could not afford to once again stick their neck out and take a crew of men to Labrador, not knowing what the results would be.

We know also, Sir, that possibly the greatest single cause for the decline in the Labrador fishery is the International fishing done by draggers mainly I suppose on the Hamilton Banks. I remember seeing a program on television awhile ago, ! ·:suspect many bon. members saw it, where the European draggers were over there,just around the same time, and our ships are out hunting seals. And they seem to concentrate on the Hamilton Banks, and haul the fish offshore.

And of course this all means that there is less and less fish coming to the Labrador Coast, and as ever year passes it seems that the size of the fish is gradually but surely diminishing until we find now that the majority of the fish caught down there can be classified as almost of the t~mcod nature. That is one problem, Mr. Chairman. The other problem centers around - MR. SMALLWOOD: Inaudible. MR. COLLINS: I am sure that everybody over there will want to hear what I have to say. MR. S~~LLWOOD: Inaudible. MR.

COLLINS: I cannot speak for the people down here, but I know that my colleagues are out for a good cause in St. John's East, and no doubt the result toniRht, when the results starts to come in, when the count comes in, will certainly show how effective job that they did today. 69~1

JUne 11th. 1970 Tape 1215 PK - 3 MR. ROWE, F.W. Will there be a victory party? MR. COLLINS: There will be several victory parties. I do not know if you have invitations or not, but I will check into that for the bon. member. Now, Hr.

Chairman, to get back to the Northeast Coast - probably one of the real troublesome spots in our fisheries, because the fishery on the South Coast and in certain sections on the Avalon Peninsula seems to have received a lot of attention, and rightly so, because of the climate and ice conditions etc. 1 it is impossible to carry on a fishery operation in that particular part of the Island, almost on a year around basis. And of course to be really successful, I would be the first to agree that we must be able to carry on, if not on a twelve month basia, well then certainly on a six, or seven or a nine months.

And of course this has created a great problem on the Northeast Coast, especially in terms of the inshore fishery. Mr. Chairman, I am sure that·hon. members will recall that the areas of Notre Dame Bay, Green Bay and White Bay, even though the season is much shorter, in the past years there was a considerable amount of fish landed in those places. I am thinking of the are~of Fogo Island, Seldom, Musgrave Harbour, Change Islands, Twillingate, LaScie, and into White Bay, and around Harbour De@p, Englee and Conche and all of those areas.

There never seems to be too mach of a problem with the supplies of fish which were available. Cod fishermen were generally successful, but they did have their bad years, but generally their return in terms of the volume of the catch was always adequate. But of course the prices paid, and this was dicatated by market conditions and also, and 1 do not mind saying, by the poor quality of fish which was produced by trap fishermen engaged in the inshore fishery.

But, Sir, that problem has been compounded now because people who are still continuing to fish on the Northeast Coast find that the stocksin that particular area are rapidly diminishing. And this of course can be attributed again to the over fishing, in terms of how many foreign drag~ers, but sometimes our own draggers, what 1 mean by our own, that is Newfoundland and Canadian draggers. I would suspect, Sir, this is possibly the r.reatest single problem facing the fishery today, how successful the fishery would 69~2

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1215 PK - 4 MR. COLLINS: be in the future will depend on how successful we are in preserving the various species and protecting it from : over-fishing. I was amazed to hear the hon. member from Bay de Verde make a statement a few days ago to the effect that foreign draggers have destroyed much of the gear of many fishermen in his particular area. I believe he mentioned figures in the order of $6,000 to $8,000. Now this, Mr. Speaker, seems to be a drastic situation, and it certainly requires some drastic action on someone's part. I suppose we must look to the Federal Government for protection.

Whiist it is a problem for us, we must assume some responsibility for it.Realizing the limited resources of the Provincial Government, we know there is very little we can do ourselves. But certainly the Provincial Government can bring pressures to bear on the authorities in Ottawa to ensure that those people~rights are protected not only the gear,which they have out there trying to catch fish, but also their rights must be protected in terms of protecting the fishing erounds so that there is fish available.

I was amazed to hear the hon. member say, that at the same time there were foreign draggers there destroying fishermen~ nets and other types of gear in that particular area. And the argument put up the Federal authorities is that they do not have the ships and so on to protect our fishermen and the areas. At the same time when all of this was taking place, Mr. Chairman, there were two corvettes around Harbour Grace or Carbonear with a great number of military types around visiting Air Cadets Squardons. There was a lot to be said for Air Cadet Squardons, I know.

And there is a time to carry out inspections for those young people, to give theu every encouragement in the world, bu~ certainly goodness when our fishermen are out at sea with their gill nets and trawls and so on doWtl on the bottom of the sea, when the need for a patrol ship is certainly evident by the record of the performances of those draggers, how in the name of goodness can we justify some of our military people sky-larking around the coast in ships which could have had been used for protection purposes/ I would hope that the Minister of Fisheries would take note of this, and hopefully to be able to reinforce his argument with the Federal authorities when he goes 69~3

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1215 PK - 5 MR. COLLINS: to bat, I presume,for the fishermen of Newfoundland. Sir, it has always been a problem·with fiahermen on the Northeast Coast and some of the other areas too, but certainly on the Northeast Coast, where they seem to be preoccupied with the codfish.

I know there have been areas where fishermen have had considerable catches of crab and haddock and mackerel, and other species, but they seem to be so preoccupied with producing cod, to use an old Newfoundland term,"If you cannot see the woods for the trees." And very often the other species which are more valuable in terms of monetary returns·, more valuable in terms of the quantity available on the grounds, but still our fishermen do seem to be altogether too much, too greatly preoccupied with just the codfishery. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Does the bon. gentleman not remember that on the West Coast just as today dogfish are looked upon as a nuisance, _you know. MR. COLLINS: There are no dogfish today. MR. SMALLWOOD: Dogfish - not too many years ago lobster were regarded as a darn nuisance, and were thrown back and that when they began first to buy lobsters in Bonne Bay, you could buy twenty lobsters for a cent. They were not regarded as fit to eat, in fact it was a crazy idea that anyone would think of eating lobsters. MR. COLLINS: That was a problem, I agree Mr.

Chairman, that was a problem years ago because,through iBnorance and lack of markets and lack of market development there was probably no market for it, but today we do have a market for lobster. We do have a market for squid. We do have a market for crab, We do have a market for herring. We do have a market for haddock. You name any species that we have in our waters, there is a market already developed for it.

And certainly there is a need for, (not necessarily educating the fishermen in that p~rticular area) certainly a need to get as across to the fishermen that~fishermen they might be sometimes better off maybe in paying less regard and less attention to the codfish and possibly concentratin~ on some of the other species. Certainly, Mr. Chairman, methods of catching and the types of fish that they catch certainly need diversification. Certainly there is a need for diversification and improvement in fishing

June llst. 1970 Tape 1215 PK - 6 MR. COLLINS: techniques. I am aware that the Government have provided some assistance in the form of bounties and so on and so forth down through the years. I never did agree though with the bounty on the gill net, and the Government seemed to go over-board in that particular type of fishing gears some years ago, and to our regret now, because it is generally accepted that gill net fishing has done terribly damage to some of the spawning grounds in Newfoundland. Granted we may not have known at the time, but - ~IR.

S!-IALWOOD: It is not the spawning grounds, it is the quality of the fish. MR. COLLINS: Well so the fishermen claim that a lot of the larger fish - the spawning fish have been caught, I am not prepared to accept that - I am not prepared to disregard it either. But it might be a problem. But certainly the quality of the fish produced by gill.nets is of such a low quality . that the returns to the fishermen are much less than they should be and certainly it is not helping the people who are involved and trying to develop markets in terms of quality.

I said, the year before last and last year,that we should be thinking about eliminating the gill net altogether, unless it is in an area which is reasonably well protected and where fishermen can get to the net in the morning and in the evening chances are the quality of that fish might be suitable. But certainly in areas where the till nets are left out overnight and possibly a couple of nights the fish which the fishermen get when they do get to the nets, as far as I am concerned,is better used for lobster bait than it is for human consumption.

It is certainly not doing anyone any good and of course, if it creates a problem in the market then the people to suffer ultimately must be the fishermen themselves. Mr. Chairman, the minister mentioned lobster a little while ago. I do not know how many hon. members have checked around the coast this year, has been or of what the slow decline in the lobster production ~ down throu~h the years, this past six or seven years at least, and how many have checked around this year to find that there is a gradual decline again both in terms of numbers G9~5

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1215 PK - 7 MR. COLLINS: and in terms of the size of fish. I ~ould say, and I do not an want to be~alarmist, but I would say that certainly the time is coming when the Federal Government are going to have to take a long hard look at this, and I would suspect that sooner or later, maybe next year, or two years from now, certainly they are going to have to consider means to either close the season altogether for the sake of reproduction or certainly they are going to have to reduce the number of traps going into the water, and possibly the number of fishermen who are catching them. Because, Mr.

Chairman, we have reached the stage now where returns are diminishing to such a point that it is hardly worthwhile for a fisherman to get involved in the • lobster fishery. I remember reading~two or three years ago, where they had a similar problem around New Brunswick, I believe, or Nova Scotia - New Brunswick, I believe, in this particular case,where every year more and more fishermen were getting involved in catching lobsters.

And more and more fishermen were increasing the number of traps which they were putting in the water, until eventually it reached the point where the output of money which the fishermen had to come up with in order to increase the number of traps in the water, that method,against the return which was lessening down through the years, finally reached the situation where very few dollars would be made from that particular fishery and the fishermen got together and called meetings and subsequently they arrived at a cooperative or a mutual decision whereby they reduced the number of traps and also reduced the number of pounds which they were taking and the result of that was seen to be very beneficial two or three years afterwards when the stocks did tend to come back again.

I would hope that the minister is aware of this situation and that he is looking into possible remedies for it. In terms of our herring fishery we all greeted the Federal minister's announcement sometime ago with some relieve when he made an announcement which had the effect of limiting the amount of herring which could be taken and the number of plants which were to process the herring into meal and oil. Certainly. Mr. Chairman, this i8 an area where we have to do a lot of work. I know it will coat a lot of moue~y, hue lr wo 4ra louklltM toward th11 tl•h.,ry aupJIIylnp, a numher of pcoople () 9 ~) li

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1215 PK - 8 MR. COLLINS: with the means to make a living,well then we have to think in terms of not using all of our stocks for oil and meal, but we have to think in terms of finishing more of the products here in Newfoundland, and this does not apply only to herring, it applies to cod and all the other species.

I think the time has come when we must endeavour to come up with a more finished product in Newfoundland, instead of shipping out cod blocks, instead of shipping out meal and oil, we must (I know it is going to take a number of years to do it) but we must make a start and try and come with a product which is finished to a greater extent. than is the case today in Newfoundland. at MR. S}~LWOOD: Of course that raises~once the question of tariffs.

Most countries . will allow raw material in duty free or at a low rate, for the finished product deprives them of the work and labour and they usually tax against it by tariffs. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I acknowledge - G9S7

JuNE 11th. 1970 Tape 1216 PK- 1 MR. COLLINS: acknowledge that could be a problem, but,certainly goodness! since the main market for most of our fish is in the United States, •.lith the relationship between Canada and the United States, I think, that through negotiations we can come up with a satisfactory solution to that peoblem. Not over night, but certainly over a period of time, I believe, we can reach some agreement with the United States whereby we can be permitted to - MR.

SHALLWOOD: Especially as the number of United State fishermen declines and there is less of a vested interest in a tariff, on the part of the American fishermen, it will become that much easier, of course,to get our fish in at a low rate, and then as the GATT arrangements and so on_. but that is a painful and an uphill fight. MR. COLLINS: This is a very painful uphill fig~t. I agree, Mr. Chairman, but that does not mean that we should throw our hands up in despair and quit. I think there is a need for continued negotiation in that particular field.

And I am sure that the negotiations will take place, and hopefully this will result in greater returns again to our fishermen. Mr. Chairman, I mentioned salmon, I believe it is in the Throne Speech Debate or the Budget Debate. I must mention salmon again because of the fact we are getting into the salmon season now. And also because of the fact that only last week there was a meeting of the North Atla~tic Fisheries Council or the International MR. WINSOR: International North Atlantic Fisheries. MR.

COLLINS: Some international · organization anyway. having to do with fishing in the North Atlantic Ocean, where it was hoped by people in Atlantic Canada for sure, that some arrangement would be reached with Denmark in terms of the deep sea salmon fishing around Iceland, and Greenland. Evidently no such agreement, or no worthwhile, no agreement with any worthwhile benefits to Newfoundland was reached. I have great fear, Sir, that our salmon fishery is on a rapid decline. and,unless some international agreement G9~H

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1216 PK - 2 MR. COLLINS: can be reached soon 1 maybe in less time than we think the salmon fishery will be a thing of the past •. Because I remember reading an

article in Sports Illustrated Magazine, and I believe I referred to that before. where this reporter visited all the major European countries. the at least those involved in salmon fishing in , Baltic and off the coast of Norway, and Iceland and Denmark and so on and so forth. And I remember a quote in his writings there,from the British Minister of Fisheries. I believe it was 1 when he accused the Danish Minister of Fisheries in regard to their fishing the salmon around Iceland and Greenland. They accused him of milking a cow which they never had to feed or some such term as that.

And certainly it was a real good term, a real good way to express the problem because the salmon which are spawning on the rivers in Newfoundland and in Nova Scotia, and in New Brunswick. and indeed some of the New England States. such as Maine, and one or two other states - MR. S:t-f.ALLWOOD: And Quebec. MR. COLLINS: And Quebec. Those fish we tried to create the proper - MR. SMALLWOOD: And over in Scotland, and the North of England, and Norway they spawn too I believe. The same fish. MR. COLLINS: No doubt they spawn, but I believe the problem which we have with the Danes - MR.

SMALLWOOD: In Ireland, England, North of England - MR. COLLINS: Mainly with the fish which is spawned in Eastern Canada and the United States, I think that has been proven by tags which have been put on the fish and checks which have been made in Greenland and Iceland where the tags have been recovered. At any rate we will let the British look after themselves. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is the same stock. MR.

COLLINS: And let the others look after themselves, but we certainly have an interest because many of the fish that are being caught on the high seas and in areas I mentioned are fish which have been spawned in the Gander River, the Exploits, and the Terra Nova and the Humber River and the different 69~9

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1216 PK- 3 MR. COLLINS: other rivers. MR. SY.iALLHOOD: They migrate.the same fish. I am not sure if they do spawn on the other side of the Atlantic. I must look it up. The very same salmon - MR. COLLINS: Fish which have been hatched in Great Britain are caught in the Baltic and off the Norwegian Coast. MR. SMALLWOOD: And not on this side. MR. COLLINS: There a few at this rate, but not too many, mainly the problem is in the Baltic and on the Norwegian Coast.

But to get back to ourselves, Sir, our big problem is with Denmark. ft appears that,regardless of what bids or what negotiations the Canada Government comes up with, they cannot seem to be successful with reaching any understanding with the Danes. the I do not know what we can do about that. I know that~Rod and Gun Clubs in Great Britain and they have the problem 4 · with the Danes again, they are the culprits who are doing the damage in the Baltic :md off the Norwegian Coast. And certain Rod and Guns Clubs around Great Britain went s~far as to have posters made up banning Danish cheese, and Danish butter, etc.

And they really advertised it in no uncertain terms to discourage people from buying Danish products, so they could get even with the Danes, and hopefully influence them to the point whereby they might change their fishing methods.

I do not know what we sell in Newfoundland coming from Denmark, but I am not suggesting that the Government should undertake a program to ban imports or anything else ., But certainly the time might come when Rod and Gun Clubs and other interested groups should making their feelings known and I can think of no better way to make it known than possibly where they eat ten pounds of Danish butter or Danish cheese cut it down to one pound, and may be cut it down to no pounds for a few years to see if this might finally shock those people into their senses. ·Mr. Chairman, those are a few points I wanted to make.

There will be a few others that I will make as we go through, but certainly we have a real problem in our fishery that requires some speedy actions, some 69CO ,. I .. ' I

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1216 PK - 4 MR. COLLINS: enormous funds of Federal money - Federal money I suppose in the main place. It is certainly an area .where we do have a lot of problems and if we are going to continue to be considered as a fishing Province, and people are going to have a chance to derived any sort of a living from it, then I am afraid it is going to have to get much more attention in many ways than we ha~ in the past. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say two things; one, I would like,now that we are talking about herring .

I would like to pay a tribute to a memory of a man who,in my opinion, was one of the greatest pioneers that Newfoundland has ever known, and one of the greatest pioneers that Newfoundland will ever know in the development of the Fisheries of this Province, and that is the late Chesley A. Crosbie. You cannot think of herring in Newfoundland without thinking of him. You can think of him without thinking of herring, because he was in a lot of othe~ things besides herring.

But you certainly cannot think of the modern herring industry of this Province without thinking of him# and not only of this Province, but of Newfoundland before she was a Province. I think he was perhaps entirely alone in Newfoundland in having a deep and abiding faith in the possibilities of developing a great herring industry. And he flung thousands and tens of thousands of dollars, and then hundreds of thousands of dollars into the effort to back his belief, to back his conviction that there could be a great herring industry here in Newfoundland.

And he did everything under the sun~ I do not know if there is . anything he did not do, I do not know what it was, I think the only limit was knowing what to do. Whatever he did know he did. Whatever money could be spent to back his ide~s he spent. And I would think that he went horribly into debt in doing that. He, of course, was away ahead of his time. And I remember his saying once in The National Convention that the herring industry of Newfoundland would grow to be worth more than the cod, than the salt codfishinp, industry.

Now that sounded crazy when it was said, because at that time the herrin~ induatry was a joke. .Just after the war there had been the UNr~ - 1'h<> llult<>rl NAIItHIR H<>ll<>f nn.liiPh"hllltAtlon "rlmlniRtr<Hinn. Thrr<- lu1rllorru lj ~)

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June 11th. 1970 Tape 1216 PK - 5 MR. SMALLWOOD: the UNRRA program to feed hungry people and one of the foods used was herring and a lot of that herring was caught and barrelled in Newfoundland and shipped off. That was regarded as a mighty effort in Newfoundland and that was not even the head of a pin, compared with the gigantic herring industry there was at that very moment in Norway and in Iceland. In Norway, if I remember rightly, the production was close to a million tons a year.

A million tons of herring a year, and we had produced under the UNRRA scheme,which was the greatest effort of all our lives in herring here in Newfoundland, we had produced a few hundred thousand barrels. Not a half a million barrels - a quarter of a million maybe - 200,000 or 300,000 ( I am speaking from memory, now, and I do not remember precisely the number). AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. ~lR. SMALLWOOD: No it was around a-quarter of a million barrels or maybe between there and 300,000. There was not a-half a barrel of herring produced in Newfoundland for a ton produced in Norway.

And it was an incredible development. I remember his explaining the program they had developed in Norway. In Norway the Government had engaged ships and aircraft and for years and years they had gone out and found_the herring, great schools of herring, so many miles off, as the years past they were able to go further and further and identify them. And then follow them in, follow their progress in toward the shore, and the scientists would take samples of those herring out of the water and study their scales and get their lif~ history.

And they got that data so well compiled that they were able to forecast the age groupings. Next year,the year after, the year after, six, eight, ten years ahead they could tell what numbers of herring would come into the shore and what size they would average. Because of their age groupings. With the result that the Government of Norway could set a date, and say on that date, like we set it in the seal hunt, on that date, but 69G2

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1216 PK - 6 MR . SMALLWOOD: not before, you may go out and meet the herring and you may start taking herring. And they have the thing down to a science and they were producing a million tons a year. And they had more factories up and down the coast of Norway with more people employed in them, in the herring industry~than we had in all of Newfoundland in our salt codfish iadustry. Now I am talking now about twenty-two or twenty-three years ago. And that man producing those facts produced facts which fell virtually on deaf ears.

Mot all ears were deaf, m~nd were not deaf, I was deeply impressed by it, and I became a convert to him,in that regard, then I had been a convert of his before that in other matters. But I became a convert to his idea that there were great possibilities in the herring fishery of Newfoundland. And when I became Premier of the Province, I was able to persuade my colleagues in the Cabinet to back Chesley Crosbie's faith in the herring industry, a faith that was shared by me, with hard dollars. And we then began putting money into that venture.

We financed the first pumps used in the world, in all the world.Chesley Crosbie was the introducer and the user of those pumps, and we financed them. This is a system whereby 1 when a great sei'lie ·.- was thrown around a huge school of herring and the boat came up and just got inside that seine, to get the herring aboard of the boat you would sink a great hose, a big wide~mouth hose,down in amongst the herring in the seine, and turn on th~ pump and the pump would suck the herring live up through the hose onrboard the ship and fill her up.

That was the first time that was done in the world and Chesley Crosbie pioneered it, and the Newfoundland Government helped in the pioneering by putting up the money to pay for it. Again. and again, we helped, we joined in, we put money in. It was all pioneering work, and of course, it ended in failure, hecause for a number of reasons; (1) that he was the only one in it; and you cannot develop a great fishing industry with one man in it. You have got to have more than one or two boats.· You have got to have ten, fifteen, twenty boats. And he had one, and finally he had two. Then again at that time, Mr.

Chairman, they

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1216 PK - 7 MR. SMALLWOOD: did not know how to find the herring. They brought a captain here from British Columbia, (I forget his name) Captain Gamin, I think, he brought him here for his firm.

And do you"know how they used to detect herring1 ~!heT~onid go out on the boat and Captain Gamin would lower down a weight on the end of piano wire, he would have a roll of piano wire and he would unroll it, and let the weight carry it down to the bottom. ~~y be down a thousand feet or well say a hundred fathoms, six or seven hundred feet until this weight would touch the body of herring, and then he with his fingers, his sensitive finger tips, he would feel that piano wire, he would feel the wire, and he would let the weight go down, down, down and keep feeling it, and he would come to the bottom of the school of herring from the top to the bottom he could measure it from the wire that went down.

And this is the only way they had in the world at that time to tell what would be the size of a body of herring. They would steam along so far, and they would do it again. And they would steam along so far, and in this way they would get the length of that body of herring.

And then, of course, ~e in the echo sounder, and then they were all wishing to God . they could get an echo sounder that would not just go straight down through the bottom of the boat - straight down to the bottom but one that would go out at an angle, so that as you went along, steamed along over a body of herring your echo sounder could not only go straight down to tell where the herring started on top and where they ended on the bottom, to get the vertical depth of the school, but other echo sounds that would go out diagonally and get the horizonal width of the body of herring.

Then when he got that he proved, he went over some absolutely astounding bodies of herring. I remember one scene Chesley Crosbie showing me the chart, the paper on the recording machine of the echo sounder,when it did come~of a body of herring that passed over in Placentia Bay. That was an incredible body of herring and you would look at it and you would be incredulous, you would find it really impossible to believe it. You know,was the machine cock-eyed? Was the thing just unreliable? Because the body of herring indicated, it was so big, as to be unbelieveable. It

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1216 PK- 8 MR. SMALLWOOD: was a million tons of herring in one school - a million tons. That echo sounder revealed that the body of herring they steamed over in Placentia Bay went for twenty or twenty-five miles. A solid mass of live herring, twenty or twenty-five miles long and may be a quarter of a mile wide and may be one hundred or two hundred feet deep. Imagine a school of herring that size. If you could get them ashore you would have a million tons or some fantastic volume.

Since then everything that has happened has confirmed those early estimates that Chesley Crosbie had made by his captains and his boats. And today we have reached the point where - what was the volume - how much herring are we producing this year? MR. WINSOR: 368 million pounds of herring. HR. SMALLWOOD: Of herring? MR. WINSOR: Of herring. MR. SMALLWOOD: 368 million divide that by 2000 - how many tons is that? We are getting up to around .100,000 tons, are we not? AN HON. MEMBER: 180,000 MR. SMALLWOOD: 180,000 tons.

The greatest production in all our history in Newfoundland was in the UNRRA years just after the war, if they got up to 350,000 barrels, I think it was, no say call it 300,000 barrels, how many poUnds to a barrel? AN HON. MEMBER: 200 pounds. MR. SMALLWOOD: 200 times 300,000 - how much is that? That was 700,000 pounds, yes 300,000 barrels twice is 700,000 pounds. And how many tons is that? AN HON • MFl-iBER: 3000 tons. MR.

SUALLWOOD: 3000 tons? 3000 tons in the biggest year of all of our lives, this year it is 180,000 tons - from 3000 tons in one year to 180,000 this year, is a pretty eloquent bit of evidence to show that the late Chesley A. Crosbie knew what he was taking about, and that his faith was well founded indeed. What a gambler he was? How willing he was to take a chance. What a gambler he was? G9G5

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1216 PK - 9 MR. S~~LLWOOD: He was a gambler. He was a man who believed passionately in Newfoundland, and he believed passionately in Newfoundland's natural resources and he believed passionately in the capacity, the capability of Newfoundland to develop natural resources that God had given us. There were people who would go a little crazy at the chances he took. They did not approve of these chances, there were people quite close to him, who just could not abide it, they could not stand it, they could not tolerate his taking the chances he took.

But he took them and he was a great asset to Newfoundland. What a loss! What a loss! What a loss he was in a relatively early death! What a loss! Arid the is remarkable thing is that one of his closest associate's Ross Young ,being buried at two o'clock today, at the age of sixty-three. Chesley Crosbie, I do not even think reached that age or anything near it. Did he? MR. CROSBIE: Fifty-seven. MR. SMALLWOOD: Fifty-seven years of age. You know it is just criminal. And then some other old codgers, like some us around this House, hang around, and hang around, and encumber the earth.

And men of tremendous ability and faith and _daring, the gambling spirit carried off long years before - AN RON. }ffiMBER: Does the hon. the Premier subscribe to the theory that the good die young? MR SMALLWOOD: In sheer selfishness I cannot admit that. They do not all die young, not all. Now the other thing I wanted to say about the Salt Fish Marketing Board' You know sometimes you are reduced to utter ~espair. The thing is talked of for say ten years, advocated, expounded, explained, for ten years. And you would think that the end of that everybody concerned would know what it was about. You would think so.

For ten years we have expounded the idea of a Salt Codfish Marketing Board patterned largely ~on the Canadain Wheat Board. And explaining carefully to everybody the idea of a fish marketing board was this; that the full returns from the market would be paid over to the fishermen, every last nickle G9L6

June 11th. 1970 Tape 1216 PK - 10 MR. S~~LLWOOD: of the returns that would come in from the markets would go to the fishermen, to the primary producers after taking off the expense. You had to take the expense off, ·the expense of collecting it, and bringing it to a place to be packed, the expense of packing it. The packages that the packing was done in, ,you had ~o put lt in barrels and drums and what have you, and boxes and so on. The cost of loading it aboard the ship and the freight of the ship to take it to the market and so on, all of that had to come off,naturally, somebody has to pay it.

This~would come off and expect for that,just the cost of doing it, the full return would go to the fishermen. And at the beginning of the year, before they had sold any, before selling any fish, the Marketing Board would set a price, and this would be just the opening price. One thing I do think, one mistake that probably was made that would have had eliminated some of the disappointment whan Mr.

Maloney, the new President of the Salt Codfish Marketing Board announced the opening prices, if he had remembered to use the phrase that would have had struck a responsive cord in the minds of an awful lot of fishermen, I think, he would have saved · a lot of difficulty. And the 9ld phrase was one that Coaker initiated, you know for fish,a quintal, "Ten dollars and the rise", "Eight dollars and the rise". How many hon. members reumber that? Such and such a price and the rise.

In other words the price was just the starting price and then the rise after _that whatever might come on top of that again, so a fisherman would sell his fish to a merchant for say eight dollars a quintal, and the rise meaning that if the price went higher throughout the season, then he g~t not only the eight dollars . but the rise. He got Che\ increase in the price later. And that is 69G'7

. June 11, 1970 Tape 111217 Page 1 JW MR. SMALLWOOD: if the price was the price and the rise, then the price that you would get would pay your expenses and what you would live on for the winter would be the rise, what you would get above the opening price. And that is what this salt cod fish marketing board is. They name an opening price, and the opening price they name this year was roughly last year's prices. Now they will collect in the fish - they will pack it, they will ship it.

They will get paid for it, and when the season is nearly over, they will probably make another payment of so much a quintal, and when the season is over, they will make a final payment. Now this is exactly what happens with the wheat board. There is an opening price. There is a half- way or an intermediate price tha~ is so m~ch more, and a final concluding payment when the season is all over and the wheat is being marketed and the returns are back and they know just how they have done, they will make a final cash payment. And the wheat farmers are tremendously interested in all three - what is the opening price?

What is the subsequent price, and then what is the final price? And this is how it is going to be with our salt cod now. And yet you would think that that would be so thorough~y and easily understood after ten years of propaganda, that when the board announced its opening prices the other day, there would be a nodding, and say well that is very good, that is the opening price, that is the starter. That is the beginning.

Now we will get more a little later on when the fish is taken to market, and they begin to get•money back, and they begin to see what prices they are going to get in the market, and finally next winter - in the winter sometime, we will get probably a final payment. You think everybody would have nodded. No. No Mr. Chairman, there was an immediate outcry - what a scandalous thing - what a disgraceful thing - 69()H

June 11, 1970 Tape #1217 Page 2 JW how scandalous, how intolerable, how unendurable this price was, as though this were the one~and only price- this was the bcginnia• and the end. The Alpha and the Omega - the beginning and the end of it all.

Whereas it was nothing more and nothing less than the opening price. I was tremendously interested in hearing from the acting Minister of Fisheries, that we have had 3,000 boats built in Newfoundland since we started the program of helping them. What year was it we started? 1963, that is seven years ago. We started a program of helping to build boats in Newfoundland, and under that program 3,000 boats - 2,927 not quite 3,000 boats had been built under it - that we have paid out over half a million dollars cash to the fishermen on those 3,000 boats.

And the boats have cost roughly around a million dollars - that we have paid out about half - or a wee bit better than half the cost of their burning those boats - were those boats built or burnt? Which was it? Did I understand the minister to say we had paid over half a million dollars to help burn 3,000 boats? Is that what the hon. minister said? Somebody said burning boats, I am sure I heard it here this morning. So we paid out half a million dollars to help to pay half the cost of burning 3,000 boats. We supplied the matches, and the kerosene and the kindling and so on.

The relatively small boats - this is not long liners. This is the ordinary trap skiff size boat. That would be boats I suppose measuring on top up to thirty-five feet on top. A regular trap skiff type of boat - 3,000 of them, in seven years. Is that 3,000 figure correct? That is right is it? 2927 boats. Nearly 3,000 boats in seven years that we have paid out over half a million dollars, or more than half the cost of those boats. Is not that something? We burn boats. We advocate - we advise the fishermen to burn their boats, and we pay them the 69G9

June 11, 1970 Tape 11217 Page 3 money to help them do it. Oh, we also help them to burn their engines. And their nets - how many nets? What is the number of nets? It is at least 30,000 and I always exaggerate, so we will see how much I have exaggerated - at least 30,000 nets we helped them to buy. At least 30,000. No, you spend thousands JW on the nets, and they catch millions of fish. How many nets did we help to buy? How many? 70,000 nets we helped to buy - helped the fishermen to burn. 70,000 nets, 3,000 boats we helped them to burn. And how many engines did we help them to burn? One for every boat?

Well that is a fair average. 3,000 boats, 3,000 engines. And we have spent an awful lot of money. It must be the best part of a million dollars. In fact I would say it is over half a million dollars. In 1968 we spent half a million dollars in that one year to help fishermen to buy nets - in one year 1968. And in 1969 over quarter of a million more on top of that. So in the whole period, three quarters of a million we gave them to help burn their nets. And over half a million we gave them to help burn their boats, and so it is about one and a half millions altogether MR.

SAUNDERS: Yesterday Sir, you noticed I was not present in the House, I was down in my district all day. MR. SMALLWOOD: Is that where the han. gentleman got the good tan? Not Jamaica? MR. SAUNDERS: out in the good weather down in my district. And yesterday, there was so much fish that the plants this morning had to stop and ask the people would they salt their fish? There is no way in the world of handling the amount of fish that those boats are bringing in. And by the way, there are 1,000 people employed. MR. SMALLWOOD: 1,000 people employed in Old Perlican and Bay de Verde. 6970

. June 11, 1970 Tape 11217 Page 4 JW MR. SAUNDERS: Old Perlican, Bay de Verde and Harbour Grace, and Carbonear. MR. SMALLWOOD: 1,000 people today employed, putting away the fish, brought in by how many fishermen? About? MR. SAUNDERS: Bay de Verde alone has 180 boats. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, let us get it. 180 boats, that is two men to a boat about? MR. SAUNDERS: Average, yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: 360 men. MR. SAUNDERS: In Grates Cove we have about forty boats. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is eighty more in Grates cove. MR. SAUNDERS: Redhead Cove and Old Perlican, I would say another sixty. MR.

SMALLWOOD: That is a hundred and twenty more men. MR. SAUNDERS: You could add another 100 boats up the shore. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is 200 more. MR. SAUNDERS: And then in the Carbonear - Harbour Grace area 200 or 300. MR. SMALLWOOD: Call it 200. That is 940 - round it out as 1,000 fishermen today brought in enough fish today in those three or four places· to employ 1,000 other people putting it away. Dressing it and putting it away, and they could not handle all of it. And so the fishermen were asked to salt some of it. And people will say, "do away with the fishery." AN HON. MEMBER: The hon.

Premier should remember that the capl'in are in now. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is right. I know. Can we not tell it by the weather the last few days? Except today. Yes, even today. So Mr. Chairman, MR. WIN:;QR, Mr. Premier the total amount paid by the inshore ti"h"rmen in the paat eiqht years from small boats, g:l!llnets, 6971

. June 11, 1970 Tape 11217 Page 5 JW trawls, is $3,089,000. $3 million not $1.5 million. MR. SMALLWOOD: In seven years? MR. WINSOR: In the past eight years. MR. SMALLWOOD: In the past eight years, $3 million dollars we have given the fishermen to burn their boats, burn their nets, and burn their engines. And that is only the small boat fisher- men, not counting longliners, and not counting draggers, and not counting large fish plants. And yet in the face, in the very face of that knowledge, people will still say with perfect illogic, will .say that this Government do not believe in the Fisheries.

They do not help the Fisheries - they do not help the f(shermen - they do not help the fishing industry, because they do not believe in it, because they wa~t every fisherman to burn his boat. Mr.

Chairman, of course, if I were to make this speech 379 times in the next 379 days, on the 380th. there would be some Tory get up and say, somewhere in Newfoundland, "this Government want the fisheries to go, they do not believe~\he fisheries - they do not do anything for the fisheries - they are telling the fishermen to give it up and go and burn their boats -go and get work on the roads, about which we are going to hear a little more in the present Session when the Minister of Highways gets up to tell us what we are hoping to do in the present year in connection with road construction.

All fishermen give up - all fish plant workers quit, and everybody go out and get jobs in Come-by-Chance and Churchill Falls and Stephenville and wherever there is any work going on, but give up the fisheries, burn your boats or live on relief . Now this is what we are told, is our policy. This is what we are told the Government of Newfoundland has been advocating down till ouqh the yec>rs. 1\nd thf'y will kE'f"J' <111 s<'yin<J it no matte..: ,~ .. ,.-..~ u ... ·-

June 11, 1970 Tape #1217 Page 6 JW what the facts are. They will jus~ keep on saying that wi~hout one single scrap of evidence to support it. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, just a few preliminary remarks on the Department of Fisheries: I would like to say that I certainly agree with what the Premier was saying in the first part of his remarks, in fact I do not see anything to disagree with at all in the remarks that he has just made on the fishery. Occasionally even the Premier can be right Mr. Chairman. We are always ready to acknowledge that.

Usually we do not have to say it, because there are lots of people on the other side who will. With reference to the fishery. The problem of draggers and the inshore within the twelve mile limit Mr. Chairman, is still very much with us, as the member for Bay de Verde pointed out the other day. And there has been more worries on the north- west coast also, and there is going to be trouble all summer.

Now I realize that this is a matter which has been the jurisdictior of the Government of Canada, but the Government of Canada does not seem to be doing much about it, or at least certainly not very vigorously, or they do not want to ruffle anyone's feathers, or do not want to upset other nations. And I suggested last summer Mr.

Chairman, I think it is still a good suggestion, that the Government of Newfoundland should use its aircraft fleet when this becomes a problem later in the summer, or planes fitted out with photography to photograph draggers, whether Canadian or foreign,within the three mile or twelve mile limits, so we will have indisputable proof of the fact that they are there. MR. SMALLWOOD: They will have to use infrared photography, because they mostly come in in the night.

June 11, 1970 MR. CROSBIE: MR. SMALLWOOD: Tape Hl217 Page 7 Of course you can only do this in the daytime. No, no, you can use a type ~f photography and take it in the dark now. MR. CROSBIE: If we had that, but I was thinking of the aerial photography that they are dging on the forest, which I imagine has to be done in the daylight. But if you had that kind of equipment, you could use that. And frankly Mr. Chairman, I do not see why we could not use the waterbombers.

When we get a report that there is a dragger within the three mile or twelve mile limit, you send out a waterbomber - it drops a load of water on that dragger, and I do not think the dragger is likely to back inside the three mile limit again. Well the first couple of occasions you could drop the water near t~e trawler or the dragger. MR. SMALLWOOD: A better way would be to drop a few Tories - drop a few Tories down on top of them. JW MR. CROSBIE: Well, that would be giving them too much of a scare.

I think that a few thousand gallons of water - If this got to be quite a problem and we can do nothing about it AN HON. MEMBER: They will probably all be wearing oilskins, and the water will not bother them at all - MR. CROSBIE: Well if a couple of thousand gallons of water falls on you from a height of 500 feet, it does not matter what you are wearing, you are going to be driven to the deck anyway. But quite seriously Mr. Chairman, I cannot see any foreign nation, or any trawler skipper, suing the Newfoundland Government because they had a load of water dropped down on them.

We can always say that the pilot was mistaken, or there was a fire near the shoreline and he just happened to press the wrong lever as he was turning around to go back to the fire. If the Canadian Government will not take what we think, and they have all kinds G974

. June 11, 1970 Tape 11217 Page 8 JW of diplomatic problems with other nations and so on, if they cannot take the vigorous enforcement of action that we think they should, then I think that we should take some steps like that ourselves, and after one or two international incidents, one or two trawlers getting five or ten thousand gallons of water dropped on them, I believe that this problem would be solved - or well on the way to being solved. And I for one, would certainly applaud the airarm of the Newfoundland Government, if it did that. In fact there are one or two ministers they could take out with them. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Would the bon. member yield a moment? Would he agree, and I personally think there is something in what he is saying, and I do not dismiss it at ail. I wonder if he would agree whether it would be a good idea for us to ask the Government of Canada to employ our aircraft. We have aircraft. We have these airbombers. We have others - equip them with infrared photographic equipment that they could photograph them at night. We heard from the member for Bay de Verde that they were coming in and destroying gear inside the limit at night - and doing it at night.

I wonder if it would be an idea to ask the Government of Canada to pay us for the cost of doing it in their behalf, instead of their trying to station their fleet around, their fleet of aircraft - we have a small fleet that could do that. What would the hon. member say to that? By ~he way Mr. Chairman, while I am at it, I mean this is getting to very dangerous - this is really a - I do not know - I am gettinc to feel uneasy. MR. CROSBIEt It must be the silly season. I think that is a good suggestion Mr.

Chairman, because this fleet of aircraft that the Government has - the main expense of having that fleet of aircraft is just having it. The cost of using is only the cost of gasoline. The wages have to be paid - depreciation has 6975

June 11, 1970 Tape #1217 Page 9 JW to be paid, and all the rest of it. So whether they are fighting a fire or not fighting a fire, the cost is practically the same except for the use of the gasoline and so on. be So that fleet of aircraft could be very wellAemployed, when not otherwise employed patrolling the coast, and if the Government of Canada could be persuaded to put some infrared equipment on those planes, it would be well worth while. If we do not take the matter into our own hands, we are just going to be continued to be trampled on.

And I am quite sure the Government takes this vigorous step, for which we would give the Government secondary credit, and it would be a great step forward. And I know the fishermen of Newfoundland would greatly enjoy seeing a few thousand gallons of water drop on some of those draggers. Now on just a couple of other Items on Fisheries, I think I can finish before 1:00 P.Min general - the herring fishery - I am glad to hear the Premier mention my late father, who was certainly one of the pioneers in the herring fishery, as the Premier well knows.

And it is certainly a great satisfaction to see that the herring fishery is run so well, and when you visit a place like Burgeo and see the new modern fish meal - the oil and meal plant at Burgee - it is just tremendous the progress that has been in the past twenty years in that industry. But I think the Minister of Fisheries mentioned caplin - that in the future, they should concentrate on caplin for meal and oil purposes, and use the herring more for food - it is indirectly used for food purposes now, but directly for food. MR. SMALLWOOD: A~ain if the han. gentleman will allow me to interrupt him.

Even in caplin the late Chesley Crosbie was the pioneer. He gathered ship loads of caplin, took them down to Williamsport to be used in his plant that he had there - the whaling plant - to produce oil and meal. Unfortunately,

June 11, 1970 Tape 11217 Page 10 the collection turned out to be too expensive, and the caplin arrived in Williamsport in too poor a condition. But there again was the pioneering, gambling spirit that some people might be willing to follow if they were not so completely hogbound conservative. MR. CROSBIE: Of course, I do not know who the Premier is referring to there latterly - MR. SMALLWOOD: Some people - MR. CROSBIE: But I was just going to mention that there is a problem - the late Ches Crosbie was a pioneer in attempting to use caplin for meal and oil purposes also.

It was not Williamsport - it was brought to the Bay of Islands - MR. SMALLWOOD: And Williamsport. MR. CROSBIE: They may have tried Williamsport too, but as I remember it the Bay of Islands - there was quite a problem with caplin, because when they come in the shore of course, they are spawning. And I was there the Spring that they were doing JW this, and as I remember it, because of the caplins' spawn, there was great dLfficulty in processing the caplin. The reduction machinery got all - I do not know what the word is - MR. SMALLWOOD: Stagged up - MR.

CROSBIE: all stogged up - and there was quite a problem with processing the caplin~ that was fifteen years ago, Now this might have been overcome, and this technical problem might have been overcome now, but that was one of the problems. The other was the cost of getting the caplin from where it was caught to the plant. So the minister might tell us whether or not if that is any problem now - the processing of caplin in that way. I wonder if the minister could - I do not know how vigorous the Government of Newfoundland has been in connection with sealing industry. And the minister of Fisheries of Canada 69~7

June 11, 1970 Tape #1217 Page 11 JW seemed to be quite adamant that he is not going to permit the gaff to be used. But if there is going to be any Newfoundland sealing effort again, and I noticed in the paper the other day, I never have the time to talk this over with him really - that it is doubtful whether the CHESLEY A. or the SIR JOHN CROSBIE will be going out next year because of the ceiling put on the number of seals taken at the front.

But on the assumption that there is, for the life of me, I cannot see why the Government of Canada will not permit the gaff to be used, in the light of the fact that practical experience ha!' shown '..t.hatthis club that they a-re now using is not as efficient in killing seals, and is certainly of no use whatever from a safety point of view. So could the minister tell us whether he w~ll take that up with the Government of Canada again and try to get that changed. be It looks as if we are going toAwithout any sealing industry in the future, and that Norway is going to have it all.

But in the event that there are Newfoundland sealing vessels out next year I think a vigorous effort should be made, and of course the minister coming from ~Bonavista North or being born there, is certainly familiar with the sealing industry. And I think the han. member for Bonavista South was out to the sealing fishery too. In connection with the marketing of frozen fish or fresh frozen fish Hr.

Chairman, I cannot for the life of me see it - there may be some reason the minister can explain - why the fresh frozen industry of Newfoundland or the Government of Newfoundland does not make an effort to put our own processing plant down in the United States of America . Now I am no expert in the fishery, but this has been suggested by various people. Iceland has its own processing plant down in the u.s. HR. SMALLWOOD: Monroe has had it for years. Arthur Monroe, for years, in Detroit.

June 11, 1970 Tape 11217 Page 12 JN HR. CROSBIE: Well we know that Iceland has it there. I think that Norway or Denmark have their own processing plant down in the u.s. They ship in the cod blocks and so on and they process them inside the tariff barrier. Well why is not that a feasible thing?

I can see that one Newfoundland company has not the finances perhaps, or the money to do it, but why cannot the industry as a whole, organized by the Government, or assisted by the Government, have our own processing plant inside the u.s. tariff barrier where the cod blocks and the rest of it can be processed into fish fingers, fish sticks - and the final consumer product down in the U.S. as Iceland has done, and other countries have done. I mean it sounds like a sensible thing when it is suggested, and is the Government of Newfoundland considering this?

I can see where no one company in the industry has the money to do it, but why not the Newfoundland industry co-ordinated by the Government of Newfoundland? Or assisted by the Government of Hewfoundland? Is there some reason why this is not feasible? Would it not give us a better return in the the Newfoundland industry? I would say that a lot of ~ money to is made in processing the product from the cod blocks in~the final consumer product. So I will be interested in hearing the minister's views on that. I think it is about one o'clock so I suppose we should adjourn. MR.

CHAIRMAN: It now being one o'clock, I do leave the Chair until three.

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 109 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, JUNE 11, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

lb. June 11 1970 Tape 1218 page 3. members. I believe that they have some kind of a conunittee set up. Nr. Sam .King ·of Valleyfield or Badger's Quay is the secretary and I know they have made representation to tlte government.

What have they asked the government to do to help them and what is the government prepared to do or what is the government going to do for the Labrador fishery this yead Or does the government consider that the Labrador fishery should be written off as non-productive or an uneconomic one. ln any event,as the House kaows the vessel owners and fishermen all had a disastrous season last year and I believe the position is that most vessel owners could not finance another return to Labrador fishery,with the loss they had last year.

I also would like to bring up this question of money that the government has in trust for the fishermen of Newfoundland. MR. SMALL\o100D: \~e have no such money • MR.CROSBIE: Well I thought, well, the minister might tear that up then. I have the impression or some people have the impression that there is a fund of five or six hundred thousand dollars, I think is the amount,and that this was left by the Commission of Government, I am not sure that he has, I may have it all wrong. But. anyway there is some fund invested which is supposed to be used for the fishermen of Newfoundland.

And in fact it has been suggested by the federation of Fishermen, i~ewfoundland Federation_of Fishermen,that the $20,000 grant they get from the Government each year comes from that fWld or some of the income from that fund. Here is a quota~ion here, April 15, 1970,Evening Telegram~ Mr. Pat Antle explained that the $20,000 grant by the Government is not paid out of taxpayers money but it is a sum that represents interest on the $650,000 the Commission of Coventment took away from the fishermen, ·said Hr. Antle." MR,SMALLWOOD: That statement does not come fr)m the Treasury. It comes iHHl2

111. June 11 1970 Tape 1218 page 4. from Hr. Antle. 1'1R.CROSBIE: That is what I say, that is why - ~~.S~~LLWOOD: There is a slight difference. MR.CROSBIE: I think Hr. Chairman, if the Premier was listening I said I was quoting - MR.SMALLWOOD: ~ heard it and read it. MR.CROSBIE: I was quoting Pat Antle • . HR.SMALLWOOD: I know it is not from the Treasury it is from Mr. Antle. There is a difference. MR.CROSBIE: If Mr. Antle was in the Treasury it would be from both. MR.SXALLWOOD: Yes, but he is not - MR. CROSBIE: He is not in the Treasury, it is from Nr. "Antle alone. But is there in the Treasury $650,000 Hr.

Antle should have? That is the question. a }1R. SI·~LWOOD: That is a good question. That is a really _,good question aud Mr. Antle is very interested in the answer. MR.CROSBIE: Exactly, and so are we }1r. Chairman. So I do not know whether .Hr. Antle's statement is correct or not but I would like the minister to clarify this question. Is there $650,000 left by the Commission of r.ovcrnment, taken away from the fishermen,and if so,what happens to the income from it or what is planned to be done with the money? Provincial Government, :·!r.

Antle said, when it assumed office in 1949 became trustee of this fund and · agreed to pay interest on this s~ to tha federation. He said this ~1as explained on at least three occasions by Premier Smallwood, adding that :1r. Barbour probably was not aware of this. Well, if Premier Smallwood has explained it three times I am surpr .ised that iir. Barbour has not learned about it. Because usually,\..·hen the Premier explains something, it is pretty clear. So, if the minister could clarify that situation. Or the Premier claxify - There is ~ust one other general point I think, I do not doubt that - G~83

li.J. June 11 1970 Tape 1218 paee 5. The herring plant Inter-national Fisheries and Fish !!leal Ljmitcd located at Stephenville is a plant I believe which is entirely .inanced by the Government of Newfoundland. There are two· herrinr, hoat:s the !Iarmon and Harmon 11, which take fish, brinr, fish to that plant. I think the company is owned by the Crace Company and the Litton Compan:!' of the United States, two large American Companies. But all of the money for this plant has been put up by the Government of Ne•A•£oundland. The whole scheme started I beli~ve in 1966.

The purpose of the plant was to test a device known as the reso jet, which \.,as a device that had been developed by U tton I believe it \-Jas, or one of the companies in any event and ~if it \o.'as successful "'l1en be put on a production basis it would/quite revolutionary in the herring reduction business. Because I think he would not need these frcat dryers and so on to dry the herrinp,.lt would all,,go throup,h this reso jet and this would revolutionize anyway the whole herring processing industry. How that was four years ago Mr.

Chairman, and there were several questions asked the Minister of Fisheries and he said thatJ5~Wuary to March 31, 1970, 150 tons of meal and sixteen tons of oil were processed at that plant in Stephenville, Now that is a very very small amount of meal and oil for three months period, In answer to another part of the question he said that seventy •five per cent of the production of the plant at Stephenville during that same period was cured for food. In other words they were not processing for meal and oil they were smoking it or processing it for human consumption.

And the fact that I was, I think it was in January or Februa~y. I was in the plant_, there watched them packing the herring for export. So seventy-five per cent of the production was for food and twenty-five per cent for meal and oil. What is the position then on this reso jet, has it, the previous minister of Fisheries seem to feel that it still has great "possibilities. ~ut two or three years is certainly long enough to test it. Is this device a success or not? What is

lb. June 11 1970 Tape 1218 page 6. forecast to happen with that plant at ~tephenville? The plant ha~; to be moved,as I understand,once the Helville Pulp and Paper Hill operation starts in Stephenville. That mill has to be removed from the site, because the smell from the fish operation would spoil the linerboard. ls that so? I would like that confirmed. It was not mentioned yesterday '1-lhethcr tl1al is true or not. · And IJho is ~oing to : mo~e it and at whose expense? The minister can answer that.

But if the P.Jinister could tell us, what is, it appears that this reso jet cannot be much of a success because it is not being used. The primary function of that plant is not to turn hcrdnp, into meal and oi~ rather to now produce food herring. And you do not need a reso jet for that. So is that experiment 1~orth continuing there~ The Harmon 1 and Harmon 11, can always be used in the fishing business ana tliley can sell their catches anywhere at any of the plants on the South Coast or :>ova Scotia. So just what is the position no1v on this Interr. a tional Fish :-leal 3 1\ll Fisheries Limited Plant?

And in any event, if Grace .. & Litton still o1m the equity in this company, if they are the owners of the company ho'I-T much longer should ... .-e continue meeting the operating deposits and so on, for these t1vo great international corupanies7 I think it is time,if we are to continue operating that plant,that we took over the O\ffiership of it, the Government of :'-lewfound- land, People of Newfoundland, who have put the plant there, who hnve bought the Harmon 1 and Harmon 11, and who have met all the operating dr>posits. So I think those are the ouly general points I have,Mr.

Chairman, ti1e minister can answer some of them. before we get down tn thP. tfpt,.iloa. to Before I sit down I should just.mention again quite seriously tl1at my suggestion about using our air fleet for fishery patrol or even to punish trawlers or draggers caught within the twelve mile limit is a serious one and the minister should take that up with the minister of Supply and Services• If the water bomber is out,start with a few near misses on foreign draggers G9C5

lb. June 11 1970 Tape 1218 page 7. and trawlers and then drop one right down the funnel - Canada will protect us if anybody fires on us. \~e do not know \~hat they will protect us with. But it .is better than having to put up with these foreign draggers destroying all our gear. As a matter of fact~in the year 1969 our government here of Newfoundland spent $337,000 paid out to fishermen $337,000 to replace gear that the fishermen had lost to draggers and trawlers coming inside the three mite limit, or the twelve mile limit.

So, with $300,000 we could wreck a considerable· amount of damage on foreign draggers and trawlers. !-1R.NEARY: Our deputy-minister is a former fighter pilot - ?·ffi.CROSBIE: Just the man we need. The deputy-minister of Fisheries a former fighter pilot, well he would find this to be a piece of cake. Would not bother him at all. And I ar.1 sure that Capt. Ted Piercey would be glad to go along on the assignment, a very capable pilot , But quite seriously }lr.

Chairman, our government should take positive to action on this and even if it \las only .,do photographic missions that 1 mentioned this morning that would be a help. And even our owu ~raggers all the damage is not caused by foreign draggers, obtain evidence of what local draggers or local trawlers are doing the dama~e also. HR. S}L\LL\.:OOD: Hr. Chairman, the minister of Fisheries has been in an acting capacity for three or four weeks and he is not as familiar with tl1is particular item as I am and perhaps therefore it might be r.1ore satisfactory if I were to answer it.

During the war the Commission of Government collected from all salt codfish exported to the foreign markets, especially across the Atlantic, to' the ~lediterranean seaports, so much a quintal, as a levy as an export levy on all the salt codfish shipped. And this accumulated so that by the time they had gone out of Newfoundland and Confederation came in it had C92G

June 11 1970 reached a totnl of around half a million dollar.;. It lay there as one of the accounts.tt was in the consolidated revenue fund,of course,as all money taken in by the government must he. But in the books of the government, in the accounts of the government there was set up a separate account to cover this . approximately a-half million dollars.

Subsequently the money, it '1-ras not set up as belonging to any one, it was not the fishermen's fund it was just an amount of money that was in consolidated revenue fund, C.R.F. 1 and in the accounts was noted as a separate amount of n1oney but not credited to anybody. Not designated for anyone, or for any particular purpose, it was just there. The present administration, when we came in office at the coming, or shortly after the coming of Confederation,decided that we had this SUQ of money there it had come out of the fishery.

And therefore,in the broadest sense of the word. had come out of the pockets of the fishermen,in the sense that every thing that comes out of the fisheries comes out of t~e pockets of the fishermen. If a merchant gets rich every nickel of ·it came out of the fishermen's pockets. No