VOL. 2 PRELHHNARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MAY 28, 1980 NO. 51

May 28,1980 The House met at 3:00p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): Tape No. 1860 AH-1 Order, please! On behalf of hon. members I would like to welcome to the House a delegation from the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary accompanied by the First Vice President of the Canadian Police Association and Executive Director of the Police Association of Nova Scotia, ~tr. Joe Ross; the President of the Halifax Police Association and Director of the Police Association of Nova Scotia,Mr.

Roy Landry;and the President of the Truro Police Association and First Vice President of the Police Association of Nova Scotia, Mr. Harold Thurrott. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would like to ask all members also to extend a warm welcome to thirty-eight grade five and special education students from Acreman , Elementary School in Green's Harbour in the electoral district of Trinity-Bay ~e Verde along with their teachers,Mr. Edwin Penney, Mr. Edward Peddle and Mr. Denis Galway. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: And as well a group of twelve students and their teachers from Clarenville Integrated High School in the district of Clarenville. We trust they enjoy their stay. SOME HON.~~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Energy. MR. BARRY: STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hen. Minister of !-lines and Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the new asphalt storage and handling facility ~f Newfoundland Hardwoods Limited at Stephenville has now been completed and is ready fer opening. This new facility, new asphalt plant 1 4873

May 28,1980 Tape No . 1860 AH-2 MR. BARRY : will allow the west Coast region of the Province to be served much more economically and efficiently than in the past. The new facility is located on the Harmon Complex in Stephenville. The capital costs amount ed to $325,000 and there will be five new jobs created in the Stephenville area. The first shipment of asphalt is expected to a=ive by tanker on May 30 ,1 980 . As soon as the tanker is unloaded the plant will be fully op erational. AN HON. '::!E!<IBER: Hear, hear! ~!R . SPEA..'<ER (Simms) : 'I'he hon. member for Bonavista North. HR.

STIRLING : Just a quick reaction, M.r. Speaker. I th .inl<: this is a note..,'Orthy day. The Minister of Industrial De vel opment (~lr . Barry) in the last year has announced the first five jobs created by his department , in one year of operation. ORAL QUESTIONS :-IR. S.?EAKER: :-IR . NEARY : The hon. the member for LaPoile . Mr. Speaker, my question if for the :1inister of Justice (~lr . Ottenheimer) . The ttlinist er seem .s to have completely demoralized the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary 1 :mel I have t:o give a little

preamble, M.r. Speaker . The other day the hon. gentleman told the House that it was not unusual for peop le to tr an sfer from one force to anot:.'ler and dragged in this red he=ing of members of the Ne..,-foundla."ld Constabulary holding do•.m high-ranlcL"lg jobs in the Rc:1P. Nell, I "''Ould like to ask the minister if he knows ot 4874

May 28, 1980 Tape 1861 EC - 1 MR. S • NEARY: any other case in Newfoundland? I think the hon. gentleman was referring to recruits and people o~ active duty when he was talking about cutting across, going back and forth from one Force to the other. But does he know of one other example in this Province where an RCMP officer or a member of the Newfoundland Constabulary was in retirement, taken out of retirement and went to a senior post either in the RCMP or the Newfoundland Constabulary? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. t~e Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, this is the first time that a former member of the RCMP has been appointed Assistant Chief of Police. That is a question of fact. I have no hesitancy in relating that. When the hon. gentleman says 'taken out of retirement; he was retired from the RCMP. He is approximately forty-three years old,so he was not home; he has been working for the past year in an executive capacity with the Department of Justice as Director of Emergency Measures. So certainly that is a question of fact.

As I stated at the time, as the appointment shows ·it is the general practice that appointments are made from within the Force. It is, however, the prerogative of government to make appointments at the Chief and Assistant Chief level and there is no automatic exclusion or disqualification of a person competent and capable - and he is a Newfoundlander - because he happened also to have served in the RCMP. To accede to that request, to accept that principle, would be to erect an iron curtain, which I have no intention of doing. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. the member MR. s. ~~RY: The hon. gentleman has continued to drag in the red herring. Nobody is criticizing, Mr. Speaker, members of the RCMP going over to the Newfoundland Constabulary or members of the Newfoundland Constabulary taking senior positions in the ReM? providing they are in active duty, or they could be Newfoundland recruits, 4875

May 28, 1980 Tape 1861 EC - 2 MR. S.NEARY: but certainly not people who are retired, this is unheard of. And I submit that is a red herring the hen. gentleman is dragging in to try to defend his position. Let me ask the hon. gentleman, how did the name - and I have nothing against Mr. Coady, he is a Newfoundlander- how did the name of Mr. Coady get in contention in the first place? What did he do to gain preference over senior officers of the Newfoundland Constabulary? What qualifications did he have over and above senior members of the Newfoundland Constabulary? What courses did he have, for instance?

What special qualifications did he have? How did his name get introduced into this matter in the first place when there were no ads carried in any newspapers or anything advertising for the job of Deputy Chief? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. First to comment on the

preamble, when the hon. gentleman says 'retired', I think one mus~ be specific. He was retired from the RCMP, he was not a retired person. He was a person forty-three years old working full-time in the Department of Justice. MR. S • NEARY·: You are splitting hairs. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: The hen. gentleman says that is splitting hairs, but it is A pretty large and important hair, I would say. The gentleman was retired from the RCMP, he certainly was not retired. He has been working in a full-time job for the past year as Director of Emergency Measures. Now, the hon. gentleman 4876

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1862 SD - 1 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: says there were no advertisements for that so how did we know about the qualifications? First, I should say there that there have never been and there were no advertisements when the position of Chief became vacant and Chief Roche was appointed,or when the position of the other Assistant Chief became vacant and Assistant Chief Don Randell was appointed, so there is nothing unusual there.

The method of how the gentleman was selected was that the Chief of Police, Chief Roche, as I think he has informed members of the Brotherhood hirnself 1made that recommendation to the department and I, as Minister of Justice, made the recommendation to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. And Chief Roche made that recommendation. The hen. gentleman says, "You know, why should it be this particular man?

Does he have better qualifications than anybody else?" My answer to that is, as I said before, I am not comparing one person with another, I am not saying one person has better qualifications ar.d another has less qualifications, it is not a question of comparison.

It is a question that it is our policy for the development of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and to help it to prepare for the needs of the future-and police duty changes as well as other occupations change - that we are planning for new training programmes and recruitment procedures and 1 in our opinion and in the opinion of Chief Roche and in the opinion of the government 1 this particular person had a mix of experience and qualifications and service in Newfoundland and in various parts of Canada which well qualified him for the job and in our opinion he can do the job very well. MR. S .

NEARY : A su?plernentary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEF~R (Simms) : A final supplementary, the hen. member for LaPoile. MR. s. NEARY: I find it very difficult, Mr. Speaker, to accept that answer. I know I have to accept the word of the minister but I find it very difficult to accept the fact - ~,.....!!_ARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. 4877

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1862 SD - 2 MR. W. MARSH~~L: The purpose of the Question Period is to ask questions 1not to make speeches. If the hon. gentleman is dissatisfied with any answer he is getting there is a procedure that he can implement to voice his dissatisfaction. MR. SPEAKER: (Simmst- I have to apologize to the han. House Leader, I really did not hear what the hon. member's

preamble was 1but I suggest to him that he keep it short and ask his question. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am asking the han. gentleman out of all the people in Newfoundland,including members and senior officers in the Newfoundland Constabulary who had qualifications to take that job, how did Chief Roche lay on his hands on one particular individual? Did somebody bring this to his attention, did somebody send him a resume, did he know about it himself? How did he just lay on the hands on this one particular individual right out of a clear blue sky? MR. L. THOMS : MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. G.

OTTENHE!MER: Did Coady apply for the job? Did Mr. Coady apply for the job? The hon. the ~linister of Justice. Nobody applied because there were no applications invited, as indeed they were not,for the position of Chief and for the other position of Assistant Chief. I do think that it is unfortunate to call into account the judgement of Chief Roche. Chief Roche knew Mr. Coady; obviously as Director of EMO they would have had contact during at least the past year. So he certainly knew him, 4878

~!ay 28, 1980 Tape No. 1863 EL - 1 ~ffi. G. OTTENHEIY£R: he knew of people in the Force and he had the files of people in the Force. The han. gentleman wants me t~ say that one person is better qualified than others or to say that others are not properly qualified 1 but the han. gentleman is not going to say that because I do not believe that. We a?e not talking about comparisons.

What I am saying is that at this particular time 1 for the particular tasks and the particular challenges of this particular time, it was the opinion of Chief Roche, it is the opinion of the government that the gentleman whose appointment I announced had the appropriate mix of qualifications, of experience, of past background, of variety of service that he had given in the other police force that made him a very capable person for this job at this particular time. MR. S. NEARY: lffi. SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I indicated a final supplementary the last time.~he han. member for Bonavista North. ~!.!<. L. STIRLING: Hr. Speaker, I yield to my colleague. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the membe~ for !..aPoile. I'.R. s. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, first of all I only have one question left. I \vant to ask the hon. gentleman if it is true that the government had to sort of - the minister had to sort of cook the books, change the regulations in order to make this appointment? That is one part of my question. And the other

part is that if I was a member of that Force I would be insulted. I would consider it and I would resent it- SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. NEARY: The minister is stating, ~!r. Speaker, the minister is stating that he does not want to make comparisons, he is not going to get sucked into that, making comparisons. Well, the han. gentleman has insulted the members of the Force because- 4879

May 28, 1980 Ta,p~ !<o. 1863 EL - 2 l'-~. SPEAKER (Simms): Orde r, please! Order, please! The hon . member is not asking a question. I thin.lc t:.'lat is t.he purpose of Qu estion Period. I :·U~ . S • )IEI'-~Y : ask him to direct his supple~entary question. Is it correct to say, ~x.

Speaker, is it correct to say that there are any number, a nur.ber, x numter of senior officials in the Newfoundland Constabulary who have the qualif­ ications, more qualifications than the gentleman he appointed,or equal qualifications to the gentleman he appoi nted and ,if so 1why ~o.-as not consideration given to somebody within the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary? ~IR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. M.~. G . OTTEm!"'I:-lER: MI.

Speaker, it certainly was not rny intention to insult mel!'.be rs of the Constabulary,and I would think that some of them Jn reflection may ,.ell be insulted t-y the kinds of c;uestions that the ho:l . gentleman rnic;ht be asking. SO!o!E P.ml. M£1-!BERS : Oh, oh ! 1-IR . O'!'TENHE IM.E R: I have absolutely no intentio:l as lor.g as I am !'linister of Justice of surre .ndering my anc! the government's respons ibili ty - M.'l. . S·. "'E.l\RY : MR. OT'rENHE!MER : MR. SPEAKER: t{R • I'<"El< ?.11 : wben you are ·~onq 1ad~it you are .. Tong. - and obligation . Now, the hQP. gentle~an~ Order, plea se!

It will be noted that the hon . gentlel!'an is not interupted ...-hen he is asking qu estions ,but lacks the col!llllOn courtesy :1R. :-lEARY: ~IR. G . O'l'TENHEI!·!ER: du ri:lg anS'..,ers. SOME HO~. MEI'BERS: MR. OTTENHEI!·!ER: Admit you are wTong. - the coumon courtesy to keep quiet Hea r, hear . So th e ho n. gentleman certainly has a 4S8 0

:-lay 28, 1980 Tape NO . !863 EL - 3 HR . G . VT'I'E:-lf.t;I:-!LR : ------------------- 'right, but ! have a right to exfect a certain courtesy from the hon . gentlem~~ . ~nd the government has no incention of su=encering the responsibility or obli<;at.ion for malting these senio r appointments. This is a r:esponsibility and obligation the governn>ent: has we do not intend to surrender it. 1~R. NEARY: \~hen you are wroaa. you are wronq. ~R. ~HE~: Thi s is the kind of society where it is the civil authority which l'lakes these appointments. rt is not the kind of authority where 4881

May 28, 1980, Tape 1864, Page l -- apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: a police brotherhood makes the appointments of management within the police. This is a civil society, it is a society where the decisions are made by the civil authority who are accountable to the people,and that is a principle that we certainly intend to stand by. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Simms): Bonavista North. MR. NEARY: The hon . the member for It could only happen in Nazi Germany or behind the Iron Curtain. MR. SPEAKER: Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Order, please! The hon. the member for Yes, Mr. Speaker.

In view of your ruling the other day·I have a new question for the Minister of Justice. Given the fact that the government certainly has the authority to appoint,the government has now appointed 1and the very presence here today indicates the feeling that the government has not acted in a way that people would have understood clearly. Now, in view of that - MR. BARRY: Justice can be done. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: kind of comment - MR. SPEAKER: Relax. Relax. Mr. Speaker, this is the Order, please! If the hon. member has a guesti~u,I would direct him to put his question. MR. STIRLING: Mr.

Speaker, the question for the Minister of Justice: In view of the fact that you have now appointed a deputy, and in my view, you have put him into an impossible situation where he has to try to deal with a situation similar to any other group of employees, if you like, where he has been put 4882

May 28, 1980, Tape 1864, Page 2 -- apb MR. STIRLING: into a position by the poor handling by the government so that he will really have no other choice - MR. SPEAKER(Simms): MR. STIRLING: NR. SPEAI<ER: question? Order, please! - but to resign. The hon. member has a MR. STIRLING: Would the minister now indicate what steps he has taken to prevent this kind of cunfusion in the future so that you do not have this kind of problem of a complete breakdown in communications? What have you done about the future to prevent this from happening again? MR. NEARY: No, do not let him off the hook. MR.

SPEAI<ER: The non. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, we do not expect to be appointing a Chief of Police or Assistant Chief of Police for quite a number of years. They are all relatively young people and barring ill health or barring an accident, we do not anticipate the need of making any such appointment. And certainly I do not think anybody has thought that if in ten or - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. gentleman still will not keep quiet. The han. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) still will not keep quiet. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR.

SPEAI<ER: Order, please! MR. OTTENHEIMER: The Great defender of law and order, and he does not have enough sense of order, he does not have enough - MR. NEARY: At leas~ I do not break the law. 4883

:a: May 28, 1980, Tape 1864 , Page 3 -- apb MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : 1-lR . OTTENHED!ER : MR. NEARY : the la\ .... MR . SPEAKER: MR. NEARY : gentleman . MR. SPEAKER : Order , please! Order, please! Sorry. At least I do not break Order , please! Obviously hon. gentlemen - (Inaudible) like the hon. Order, please! Obviously ho n. members to my right ask questions in order to get answers. I submit it is very difficult to get answers if continuous interruptions are occurring. So I would ask hon . members to give their answers in silence and give their questions also in silenc e. The hon. the ~1inister of Justice . MR .

OTTENHED!ER: Mr. Speaker, we certainly have not made any plans for an apppointment in, you know, however many number of years for a Chief of Police or for an Assistant Chief of Polic~. As I have said before and as the facts will show , the general practice is appointment within the ranks. In one instance we appointed an 4884

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1865 ow - 1 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Assistant Chief of Police who was a Newfoundlander, who had served formerly with the RCMP, who was for the past ¥ear working with the Department of Justice in another capacity we appointed him as Assis- tant Chief. I do not see that it is matter that hon. members should take such exception to at all. And certainly nobody has made any plans for the appointment of ~ ssistant Chiefs in what could be some years hence. MR. L. STIRLHTG : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) member for Bonavista North. MR . L. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen.

Again, in view of the Speaker's ruling the other day, I do not want to return to the line of questioning and be ruled out of order. So I would ask a supplementary dealing specifically with this: Our police, we have taken a great deal of effort to make sure that they are proud of the job that they are doing and we are proud of them. Now put yourself in the ~osition a new recruit who has been attracted to the police force, and he can, as in any other organization, see himself moving along providing he does the work and he gets it - MR . W. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: President of the Council. MR. W.

MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr . Speaker. A point of order. the hon . Mr. Speaker, I again say this is a Question Period,not the point to make a speech, least of all to give a sermon. MR . E. ROBERTS : To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. 4885

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1865 DW - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, obviously it is the Question Period and all that my hen. friend for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) is doing, it may be offensive to my learned friend from St. John's East to be asked questions on a topic that he obviously would prefer to hear nothing more about 1 but all that my hen. friend for Bona- vista North is doing, Sir, is posing a question. He is not making a speech.

If he were to be allowed to give a sermon, Sir, I can think of no group of ladies and gentle­ men who more deserve a sermon or more need a sermon than hen. gentlemen and ladies opposite. But, Sir, that is not the point of it either. All my hon. friend for Bonavista North is doing is asking a question and I submit he ought to be allowed to do it without being harassed by gentle­ men opposite who are being touched in what obviously is a tender and very sore spot, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): With respect to the point of order, I bring to the attention of all hen. members Standing Order 31 (

c) which says in part, "In putting any oral questions , no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except so far as may be necessary to explain the same". The hen. member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I am trying to put the question in the context of recruiting and showing a career path as we want to do throughout the whole Public Service.

And the people in the Constabulary if you were a new man coming in or now at a rank along the wa~ what assurance would the minister give, having learned this current lesson,th~t he will recruit in a way and set out a career path in a way that people in the police force will know that providing they take the courses, providing they are diligent, providing they do all the 4886

t1ay 28, 1980 Tape No. 1865 OW - 3 MR. L. STIRLING: training , that t~ey will be in line to be considered, to even be considered, Mr. Speaker, before goLng outside the force? What assurance can the minister give that ha ving learned this lesson. that in the future he is going to be able to set this out for th e honourable career men in the police force? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! I believe the hon. member has asked his question. 488 7 .•

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1866 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, bearing in mind the government's policy for development of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, bearing in mind its commitment to that development and our view for the need for new and developed training procedures and recruitment procedures, then I would say that the appointment of a person who, working together with Chief Roche and Assistant Chief Randell, could make a very significant contribution to the development of that force,- to the improvement of training and recruitment facilities, that the appointment of a person who could make a significant contribution to those goals would be, I would hope, welcome for the overall good of the force.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. STIRLING: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Bonavista North. MR.

STIRLING: Do I understand from the Minister of Justice that bearing in mind the fact that the major problem we have here today is because he did not do exactly what he just set out, and that is advertise it, select from amongst the force, and find somebody from within the force before going outside the force, and that he has now set up a situation where the Deputy Chief,who would normally succeed, or you would expect that he would expect to succeed, has an impossible situation; .·fs the minister saying that even though he has learned all these lessons he is not prepared to do anything about the present situation and he is not prepared to guarantee that it will not happen again in ~~e future?

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I am not really sure what the import of the question is but I think what it comes down to essentially is, am I prepared to change my mind or is the government prepared to change its mind with respect to the appointment of the Assistant Chief which I announced last week; at least that is what I understand to be the gist of the question. And as I said before, the government has no intention of surrendering its 4888

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1866 NM - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: responsibility and obligation to make these appointments. The government has no intention to surrender that responsibility. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, my question is also to the Minister of Justice, and I would suggest that the Minister of Justice is learning well from the Premier of this Province in that he is becoming just as arrogant, just as arrogant. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. SPEAKER: Justice. Oh, oh! Dictatorial. Order, please! A point of order, Mr.

Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Minister of MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, .I welcome questions on this and other subjects. Hon. members will know,however,that I do not make personal references to them and I think Your Honour will see that offensive language - MR. NEARY: MR. OTTENHEIMER: keep quiet. Why do you not (inaudible)? - if the hon. gentleman from LaPoile will MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

OTTENHEIMER: - that in my answers to them,they may agree or disagree with the answers, I do not make personal,offensive references to them 1 not that it particularly bothers me, and I think I can hold my own with the hon. gentleman from Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) - MR. THOMS: Then why are you on your feet? MR. OTTENHEIMER: - but I think that personal offensive language really has no place in this Legislature. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 4889

~lay 28' 1980 MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for LaPoile. Tape No. 1867 AH-1 Where is the point of order? To that point of order, ~rr. Speaker. To the point of order. The hon. member MR. NEARY: It is really humorous, Mr. Speaker, to hear hon. gentleman on the other side after they give members on this side the flick, they get up then and try to portray an iiD4ge of being holier than thou. After giving me the flick,the Minister of Justice (Mr . Ottenheimer) then gets up and says, "Oh 1my hon. friend should not do this to me." It is alright for them to do it to us but we cannot do it to them.

And I would submit, Your Honour, that there is no point of order. It is not even a disagreement. It is just that the minister is very testy and sensitive today because he knows he did wrong. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order, I would rule that there is no point of order. The hon. minister has taken an opportunity to defend accusations that were made perhaps towards him but I would like to rule there is no point of order but a difference of opinion between two hon. gentlemen. If the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) has a question, I would direct him to ask it.

MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hy question to the minister is - and I believe that in this particular case the present Chief of Police is being made a scapegoat in the whole matter, is being used - and my question to the minister is what part the Assistant Deputy Minister of Justice, Mr. Cyril Goodyear, an ex RCMP officer himself,had to play in the appointment of Mr. Coady? MR. NEARY: A good question. NEARY: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, to suggest that Chief Roche is anybody's scapegoat is to sorely underestimate the man 1and I would 4890

May 28,1960 Tape No. 1867 AH-2 MR. OTTENHEI~~R: say that they sorely underestimated him. MR. THOMS: You are the one who used him. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. OTTENHEIMER: Chief Roche himself made the suggestion, made the recommendation. The hon. gentleman asked what role did Mr. Goodyear have to play and then he said thaL Mr. Goodyear also served in the RCMP. What a terrible thing for the man to have done, to have served in the RCMP! He also served in the Newfoundland Rangers for years, he also served as Chief Magistrate, Chief of the Provincial Bench, he is also a member of the Law Society.

But what a terrible thing, he also served in the RCMP, You would not know but he served in the NKVD! MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER (Sinuns): MR. OTTENHEIMER: Now who is misinterpreting what I say. Order, please! What did he have to do with it? He was the one who received the recommendation from the Chief, he was the one who received the recommendation from the Chief and passed it up the line. There is no · great conspiracy that Mr. Goodyea~ because he served in the RC~ 1is out to put the RCMP everywhere at all.

And I point out, I think it is most unfortunate that a man who cannot defend himself, who is a public servant, who also served in the Newfoundland Ranger Force - MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: Answer the question. Order, please! - who also served as Chief of the Provincial Bench, that such a man is attacked in the House. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, there must be a love-in for the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) on the other side today.

My point of order is this, that the minister is simply just not answering the 4891

May 28,1980 Tape No. 1867 AH-3 MR. THOMS: question. He is giving us a eulogy on the Assistant Deputy Minister of Justice. I want an answer to the question of what part the Deputy Minister played in this appointment. 4892

May 28, 1980 Tape 1868 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (SiliVTIS) : Order, please! I do not believe I need to hear any debate on that. There is no point of order. I quote Standing Order 31 (g): 'A member who is not satisfied with the response to an oral question may give notice that he intends to raise the subject-matter of the question at a later date.' So the hon. member is aware of that. MR. L. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. the member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Justice (Mr.

G, Ottenheimer) indicate to this House whether or not the appointment by senior personnel within oux police force by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council is an exception to the rule across Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minjster of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, it is in the Constabulary Act, the appointment of the Chiefs and the Assistant Chiefs. I have not really cheCked the Constabulary Acts of the other provincial forces. I would have to either do that or have somebody do it. I know it is the procedure in this Province. I have not checked the Constabulary Acts on that point in or.her provinces.

I will certainly have that done. MR. L. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Grand Bank, followed by the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. L. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, as I said before, I think that appointments to the police force should be taken out of the realm of political appointments, and I would ask the minister once again, in view of the controversy that has arisen because of the method by ~hich this particular appointment was made, whether or not he will consider an alternative method to making senior appointments in the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, with reference to the method in which this appointment was made, it is exactly the same way t.'lat the 4893

May 28, 1980 Tape 1868 EC - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: appointment of Chief Roche was made, Chief Randall was made and all the Chiefs of Police for past decades or generations. So it is not a - MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: I am not asking that. Order, please! It is not particularly unusual, it is the way it has always been done. I will certainly have a look at the Constabulary Acts in other pro?inces- I have not checked them­ and see what their particular provisions are, but at ~~e moment I am certainly acting within the Constabulary Act of this Province • MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. THOMS: MR. G.

FLIGHT: Minister of Justice. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. You cannot get an answer out of the man. Mr. Speaker, ffrJ question also is to the Oh, oh! Order, please! I have difficulty hearing the hon. member put his question. MR. G. FLIGHT:· My question to the Minister of Justice, Sir - and there is a very interesting side issue to this whole question, Hr. Speaker.

A lot of people in the Province felt over the years that EMO has been downplayed much to their regret because they recognize it is a very important organization in this Province, and with the appointment of Mr. Coady with all the grand qualifications outlined by the minister, then they felt that EMO was again being elevated to the kind of organization it should be. One could make the case that Mr. Coady was inserted in the position - MR. SPEAKER: MR. G. FLIGHT : was waiting to become available. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. G. OT'l'ENHEIMER: Order, please!

Order, please! - of Director of EMO while this position Hr. Speaker - The hon. the Minister of Justice. - there was not even a question so it is very difficult to reply to anything. MR. G. FLIGHT : MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: That is the

preamble, Hr. Speaker. Oh, that is what it was • 4884

May 28, 1980 SO."'E HON. ~!EMBERS: MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAICER (Si.mms) : for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. F'"..!GHT: Tape 1868 EC - 3 Oh, oh! A supplementCI.ry, Mr. Speaker. A supplementart, the hon. the member Would the minj.ster indicate to the Houae now if he is aware of an individual with the quali.fications of Mr. Coady that was necess ,ary to be Director of EMO, whom he is looldnq at to 4895

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1869 SD - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: appoint to the position of Director of EMO now that Mr. Coady has gone,because there are some people in the Province who see the man appointed Director of EMJ as important to the Province as the man appointed Assistant Chief of Police? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the supplementarJ

preamble, the position of EMO always has been and is one which will be done by public advertisements,so there will be public advertisements and no doubt those interested and with the qualifications will apply. I can not prejudge, I have no idea who will apply or who will be appointed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: -- ---- Order, please! MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: It is an important post, certainly a very important post for co-ordination o= the various services and forces and auxiliaries and units in case of some catastrophe MR. S. NEARY : (Inaudible) leadership (inaudible) MR. G.

OTTENHEIMER: -or disaster or acc~dent. Obviously, it is very important and advertisements will be made and the best qualified and suitable candidate will be appointed. MR. G. FLIGHT: r.et us clap for Mr. Coady, boys. SOME HON. Mt:MBEP.S : oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. E. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: One final supplementary, the hon. member for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: My question is to the Minister of Justice, and we have seen in this House arrogance displayed at various times by this govemment but nothing like . we witnessed today. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

If the hon. member has a question, he has ten seconds. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. E. HISCOCK: The question I would like to ask the Minister of Justice- the appointments are of a civil nature and is not the act of this government and the minister '-; ·will the minister take into consideration 4896

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1869 SD - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: in the future that any senior position of the Royal Newfoundla."ld Constabulary be taken upon advisement and the Brotherhood informed or at least consulted with appointments in the future? MR. S. NEARY: ·He would not want that. MR. SPEAKER (Sil1'l1\

s) The hon. the Minister of Justice . MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, we are certainly not, you know, anticipating an appointment at that level. The hon. gentleman said &bout appointments within the ranks. As I said,the entire procedure,if you go back through appointments for the past n~er of years ,in the past number of months, the appointments have been within the ranks.

This is one specific instance in order to meet one specific set of circumstances, and that is the development of the Force, the new recruiting and training methods and their overall development and upon the advise of the Chief and government's own decision to accept that advise, this particular person was appointed. It would not be appropriate, c..--ertainly, to have the consent of the Brotherhood in order to appoint a Chief or Assistant Chief. I mean, that would be relinquishing or surrendering that obligation which now rests with the government, with the Lieu~enant- Governor in Council.

And to say that a condition for the appointment of a Chief or an Assistant Chief must be the concurrence of the Brotherhood, would be to surrender that authority,which the government is not in a position to do. MR. E. HISCOCK: Final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of privilege. MR . SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my understanding on the rules of \ the House. is that you have to raise a point of privilege as soon as the information is brought to your attention that the privileges of the House have been breached. Is that correct? !1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member may continue . 4897

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1869 SD - 3 MR. S. NEARY: Well, I am not laying any charges against the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer) at this part~cular moment, Mr. Speaker, but I do want to say this, that if it is borne out in the course of events that the 4898

May 28, 1980 Tape T~o. 1870 EL - 1 MR. S. NFARY: minister withheld information or misled the House during the oral Question Period on this matter of the appointment of an Assistant Deputy Chief of Police, if that happened then I would submit the hen. gentleman is in breach of pr~vilege of this House. And it happened - MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: - in this way, Mr.Speaker. I want to tell Your Honor how I think it happened. I am told from a very reliahle source that Mr. Coady has asked to have his application withdrawn. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEJ>.RY: Now that may or may not be true, Mr.

Sf-eaker, MR. SPEAKELl.: Order, please! I believe I have heard enough from the hen. member. I do not think that this constitutes a case of breach of privilege 1 certainly not a prima facie case. So I would rule without having to hear anything further that there is no breach of privilege. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the hen. the Minister of .Justice. 1-'.R. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. gentleman put forward the position, if I misled the House.

Now, I am using point of privilege as a matter of explanation, I am not pressing for a prima facie. ! am using it as the authorities show as a point of explanation. I think that it is most unfortunate that the hen. gentleman should bring this in. I certainly did not mislead the Eouse 1 I certainly did not tell untruths and for the honorable-or lie, in other words, we may as well call it, or lie to the House. I cer -tainly did not do that and I think veiled allegation that I so did must be, ~ would hope, embarrassment to many of the hen. gentleman's colleagues. 4899

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1870 EL - 2 SOME • HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! With respect to the point of privilege,! would rule also that there is no prima facie case in this matter but the han. minister has taken the opportunity to clarify remarks that were attributed to him by other han. members. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I want to respond to a question that was asked me by the han. member for LaPoile yesterday. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! DR. J.

COLLINS: He asked me would I inform the House whether or not the government has taken the major step, the big decision of allowing beer to be placed in cans. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! ~ COLLINS: Can I get the attention of the han. member for LaPoile(S. Neary)? I am answering a question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member is answer- ing a question. DR. J. COLLI:'lS: Allowing beer to be placed in cans, allowing tinned beer into the Province. SOME HON. !<!EMBERS : Hear, hear! DR. J.

COLLINS: I have to tell the hon. member that I have since checked and the President of the Liquor Corporation reminded me that beer in cans has been for sale in this Province for some con- sideratle time. It is mainly beer imported from foreign countries,but there has been tinned beer for sale in this Province for years. l1R. NEARY: I am talking about local beer. DR. J. COLLINS: Well, you did not say local beer. 4900

~lay 28, 1980 MR. NEARY: How am I going to (inaudible). DR. J. COLLINS : Tape No. 1870 EL - 3 Do not be so stupid (inaudible). In regard to a sub voce supple- mentary that I just heard from the han. member, there has been an approach to the Liquor Corporation by one of the local breweries to can beer within this Province. Ther has been an approach to the corporation and the corporation, of course, has given the permissior. to have such beer listed because, of course, the precedent is already set. I might just mention also at this point - the hen. member brought up the issue of possible pollution.

I think the way he expressed it was 'What will be done to protect the environment against these cans being flung out of the windows of cars and left along the roadside and in parks' and so on and so forth. I have to tell him in the House that the corp­ oration has advised the local brewe~ in question to consult with the Department of ~onsumer Affairs and Environment on this very issue. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER (Simms): This being Wednesday, as agreed, I under- stand we will continue with the concurrence debates.

Forty-five minutes I believe, remaining on the Resource Estimates Committee Report,then followed by the Social Estimates Committee Report. For the benefit of the hen. members, the Social Estimates Committee Report will cover the Departwents of Social Services, Consumer Affairs, Justice, Health and Education. At the conclusion of the forty-five minutes, a motion will be put on the Resource Estimates Committee and I also understand that His Honor may be arriving sometime short~y,at four o'clock or so, so we may have to rise briefly. The hon. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verte. MR. F.

ROWE: Yesterday I managed to drag out of the Minister of Fisheries(J. Morgan) a very significant statement which in his abscence I hope the Premier will pursue today and that is that essentially the 4901

May 28, , 1980 Tape No. 1871 NM - 1 MR. F. ROWE: government has decided at this point in time, for various reasons, to scrap the idea of the superport in Harbour Grace. Now what I would like to hear from the Premier today, if L~e Premier is listening, Mr. Speaker, what I would like to hear from the Premier today, in the absence of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) 1 whom I assume will not be here - AN HON. MEMBER: That does not make any difference. MR. F. ROWE: Well, Mr. Speaker, could anybody opposite indicate, is the Minister of Fisheries going to be absent for the remainder of the day? MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The han. President of the Council. MR. M.-..RSHALL: The Minister of Fisheries is out on pressing business,! would like to inform the han. member. MR. F. ROWE: MR. MARSHALL: questions he wishes to pose. MR. F. ROWE: Well, that is fine. But members of the ministry can answer any That is fine. That is fine. Well, Mr.

Speaker, what I would like for the Premier to indicate to the House today is the status of the five year programme, the five year fisheries programme announced a couple of years ago by the previous Minister of Fisheries,which was to cost in the order of $500 million, $250 million from the private sector, $250 million from the government sources, either provincial and/or the federal government. What I would like to know from the Premier, Sir, is whether the government has abandoned that original programme brought ~n by Mr. Walter Carter approximately two years ago, called Fisheries Strategies Into The '80s.

We now know that the superport, or the primary landing and redistribution port, that concept, costing in the order of $61 million, has been scrapped.

However, it did cost this administration in excess of $600,000 for the Kellogg study and other provincial departmental studies to heve that study produced, which came up essentially with the strategies for the fisheries for the next five years into the eighties. lihat I would like to have from the Premier is a straightforward indication as to the status of the fisheries programme as outlined in that particular brochure put out by the department and by L~e minister of the day. 4902

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1871 NM- 2 MR. F. ROw""E: Another thing that I would like for somebody on the other side, Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Fisheries, to indicate is this whole business of salt fish and the marketing of salt fish in the Province. And I am reading a letter here addressed to a certain person whom I will not name at the present time, I will only be too happy to indicate it to the Premier privately, but it is from Maritime Fish Products Incorporated of New York, and they have indicated, Mr.

Speaker, that their "business in salt fish has been growing steadily over the years," and I am quoting from the letter. And they buy, or "We buy," as stated in the letter, "approximately 8 million pounds of finished product in salt fish a year." The letter goes on to indicate that•almost all of our salt fish still comes from Canada, but unfortunately none from Newfoundland. We last purchased salt fish from Newfoundland in 1974 and since that time we have never been offered supplies or in any way been contacted by anyone associated with the Saltfish Corporation.

Fortunately we have managed to establish alternative sources of supply in Nova Scotia and Quebec. It is, however, very regrettable that we are no longer able to do bus:Lness with a reputable packer in Newfoundland." Now, Mr. Speaker, the reason why I quote from this letter is that apparently since 1974 at least we are losing, or have lost, through one buyer anyway, a potential market of 8 million pounds of salt fish to a potential buyer outside this Province. I was wandering if somebody on the other side could indicate to the House to what extent this type of thing is going on.

This was just brought to my attention there yesterday and if it is jus~ one firm, 4903

May 28, 1980, Tape 1872, Page 1 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: or if this is an isolated case it may not be looked upon to be that serious. However, 8 million pounds of salt fish is B million pounds of salt fish that has been bought by this outfit, this Maritime Fish Products Incorporated in New York, is being bought from Nova Scotia and Quebec now when it was being bought from the Province of Newfoundland prior to 1974. And the last thing that we need in this Province is the loss of markets for salt fish and I hope that this is not too extreme. The other matter, Mr.

Speaker, that relates to, I suppose the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie), is the matter of the blueberry industry in this Province. I was wondering, and probably the best way here is to read a letter that has come to my attention from Jasper Wyman and Sons of Maine, and it is addressed To whom it may concern' and it is a copy which is difficult to read, Mr.

Speaker, but I will read the letter and probably that is the best way to put the question to the minister concerned. 'To who it may concern~ Concerning Newfoundland wild blueberry production, we find that due to soft and old berries caused by early picking and holding the berries up for several days before delivery and processing causes a very high shrink, a blueberry with a character problem and, therefore, it is not conducive to normal grade stundards required for the trade. 'If we are to continue purchasing and using wild blueberries from Newfoundland, we must have berries that are fresh and processed within twenty-four to forty-eight hours of picking.' And then they go on to other kinds of processing and they state, 4904

May 28, 1980, Tape 1872, Page 2 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: 'We believe that this could be accomplished very easily?y the industry as a whole'. Now, Mr.

Speaker, since this is, I would assume, one of the few industries that can be derived in a sort of a non-cultured or non­ cultivated or in a wild sense here in the Province, we have certainly much in the wav of wild blueberrv lands in this Province and,obviously, there will be a cultivation of them, but this is certainly an indication from the Eastern Seaboard of the United States that our blueberries,for some reason or other in this particular case, do not reach the standard required bv this particular company in Maine and, obvio,usly, there is a loss of markets in this particular case.

So in closing, since I do not have much time left, Mr. Speaker, I would like the Premier to indicate the exact status of the five year fisheries strategy that was announced by Mr. Walter Carter since we got the indication yesterday that the superport has been scrapped and,also, if he could indicate the loss of markets for the salt fish in this Province as indicated in another letter that I brought to the attention of the House.

And probably the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development could indicate what if any, what is the degree of seriousness through the loss of marketing blueberries because of the grade and quality of the blueberries in this Province. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I am only too pleased to respond to some of the comments made by the hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F.B.Rowe) on the whole question of fisheries in the 4905

P~y 28, 1980, Tape 1872, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: Province and particularly as it relates to the distribution port in Harbour Grace. Now, talking about fish 1 the hon. member is bringing up a real red herring when he talks about the central port in Harbour Grace because what has overtaken the whole question of a superport or a redistribution ce~tre £or codfish and other fish species in the Province is the present . situation 4906

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1873 DW - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: as it relates to the Northern cod,and unless and until there is some determination by the federal authorities on how they are going to proceed with the access to the Northern cod 1 it will impact directly upon the viability or lack thereof of the superport concept 1 and more importantly, the whole re-distribution aspect of that superport. So that is where the thing lies.

Back two or three years ago under the former administration there was a proposal put forward, a direction taken as it related to the re-distribution of fish that could be brought into a central port at Harbour Grace. That pre- supposed-and one of the assumptions underlying that report, underlying that strategy was that there was some fish to have access to, if I may be so bold grammatically to use a sentence ending in a preposition. So the question is one of as to whether there is going to be access to additional fish.

Now that whole question of/\ additional fish comes down to the question of the Northern cod stock because that is the primary now there are some other secondary species that could be brought into Harbour Grace as well 1 but the primary stock would be the Northern cod stock and until we have a determination by the federal authorities - this is why, obviously, DREE has not moved, DREE could not get an answer out of Federal Fisheries and Oceans and they were switching it back and forth for a couple of years there.

Because the whole idea of Harbour Grace was not only, obviously,for an inshore fishery but was to have access to the gradually growing Northern cod stock which would be of such a consequence over t~e next four or five years by the time the superport was built, that you would have a legitimate surplus offshore which would have to be caught. And then, if that legitimate surplus which would be, obviously,then because of its 4907

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1873 DW - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: legitimacy over and above what was needed for the inshore fishery ,then that offshore effort could be used to bring that legitimate surplus ashore to Harbour Grace and allow for its distribution in the North­ eastern area of the Island to the plants that now exist that are now only working three or four months of the year. But the operative and the salient point of the strategy was that there was additional fish in the resource. Now with the offshore effort being the way it is right now they are not altogether sure whether,in fact, there is going to be one.

That strategy was developed, as the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) said 1 a couple of years. There has been somewhat ~ a change to that strategy 1 obviously. That was done by a previous administration, not by this one, so that therefore one has to look at what we have said as it relates to the Northern cod stock. And we are committed to a policy whereby the inshore fishery must be totally and absolutely protected.

Now until we are assured,and I know from whence I speak, that the inshore fishery will not be impaired or negatively affected,then we do not want to see any offshore effort,Newfoundland or otherwise,on the Northern cod stock. And when we would rather see for the next three or four years the Northern cod stock left alone,and while it is being left alone offshore that there will be intensive, extensive studies done on that stock to see whether , in fact, there is a legitimate surplus. Because what is now classified, 4908

May 28, 1980 Tape 1874 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as a surplus, is not known in fact, is not known in science, is not known biologically. And I refer the hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) to a number of studies that have been done over the years which are very inconclusive on this whole question of the Northern cod stock and whether there are sufficient quantities there over and above what would naturally flow to the inshore.

As a matter of fact, there are those around who are far more qualified in the fishery than I, who have said to me in the last two or three weeks that the reason why the whales are near the shore and all the rest of it is because there is not the amount of fish outside to keep them where they normally would be. And there is other evidence to suggest that. So what we are saying as a Province, which we have said in a number of documents that have been produced, the Northern cod seminar in Corner Brook last year where we produced documents which indicated our emphasis upon the inshore fishery.

Because if you do not - and I challenge the hon. member to tell me where he stands on this - if you do not do that you are challenging the population distribution and the present arrangement of co11111unities around this Island in the long-term. That is what you are doing. You are challenging whether Fogo should continue to exist, you are challenging whether St. Brendan's should continue to exist and so on. So our emphasis is on the inshore fishery.

If and when it can be demonstrated scientifically and factually that there is no 1110re, then fine and dandy, we will look at a legitimate surplus and then we think the central port concept is a very wise kind of approach to the distribution of fish to a number of fish plants around the Province to allow them to extend their season and to reduce unemployment in Eastern and Northeastern Newfoundland. So that is the approach we are taking.

Pursuant to that approach, and to add substance to it scientifically and otherwise, we are engaged in a fairly extensive study right now on the Northern cod stock, scientifically and historically. And we will .be producing a document on that to indicate that the position we have taken is a very reasonable and sensible one 4909

May 28, 1980 Tape 1874 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: to take. So the superport idea as it relates to the catching and bringing to shore and the distributing of the Northern cod stock and other species out of a central port like Harbour Grace is a sound idea, but it cannot precede factual information, scientific information which demonstrates th~t in fact there is a surplus to the inshore effort which would allow for the distribution of this additional. surplus.

I do not think the hon. member knows, nor do I, nor does any hon. member in this House know, that there is at this point in time sufficient surplus offshore which will not be negated, which will not hurt or inhibit the ongoing inshore fishery at its present level and even for it to improve somewhat over what it is right now.

That is the great challenge, to be able to say definitively and categorically that there is right now more fish than is necessary for a vibrant inshore fishery, so that therefore , you can bring that extra fish in and have the so-called central port as a viable option for the whole fishing industry on the East and Northeast coasts of . the Island and in the Province generally. That is the great question, and there is no - as I said - scientific information to show that. We have to prove that. It is a good idea. To be corny and to be punny, it is a super idea as long as you have the resource.

We do not know to this point in time that we really do have the resource to the extent that would make possible the viability of that concept and unless and until we know that, then it is foolhardy to move ahead today and yesterday towards massive investments in that field. You would be putting the cart before the horse. Let us know what we have and then on the basis of that, develop a strategy in line with it which would include, if in fact we had the fish, that kind of redistribution port, and a logical place for it to be would be in Harbour Grace. SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: Mr.

Speaker, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has arrived. 4910 )<

May 28, 1980, Tape 1875, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms}: Admit His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. May it please Your Honour,the General Assembly of the Province ha5 at its present session passed certain bills to which, in the name of and on behalf of the General Assembly, I respectfully request Your Honour's assent. A bill, "An Act To Provide For Natural Areas In The Province To Be Set Aside For The Benefit, Education And Enjovment Of Present And Future Generations In The Province." (Bill No. 12).

A bill, "An Act To Protect The Environment Of The Province By Providing For Environmental Assessment." (Bill No. 13). A bill, "An Act Respecting Th~Establishment Of A Newfoundalnd And Labrador Arts Council". (Bill No.l6). A bill, "An Act To Adopt A Flag For The Province". (Bill No. 44). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Workers' Compensation Act". (Bill No.46). HON.GORDON A. WINTER(Lieutenant-Governor): In Her Majesty's name,I assent to these bills. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, let the record show that the Premier has now made a complete reversal on the whole fisheries policy of the administration of which he, himself, was a part when itwas announced, a complete reversal. The hon. the Premier said this afternoon, Sir - I could hardly believe my ears, he was practically saying exactly the same thing that we 4911

May 28, 1980, Tape 1.875, Page 2 -- apb lo1R . F.B.ROWE: said when this whole superport and this five year fisheries progranane was first announced in living colour ever in the Holiday Inn. And it is a sad commentary, Mr. Speaker, when we have $661,000 worth of prematurity. I would suggest that the government should have done the studies on the availability of cod stocks or any other kind of stocks before they started announcing $500 million programmes, fisheries programmes for this Province and $61 million superports.

I would submit it would have been far better if the studies had to have been done pertaining to the stocks and the status of the stocks and the state of the stocks of the various species of fish in this Province before they got up and spent $661,000 to make a grandiose pre­ mature statement just before an election campaign. But let the re .cord show, Sir, that the Premier of this Province, who was a part of that original administratio .n - he can try to put as much distance between himself and the Moores administration if he wishes, but the bon. the Premier and many ministers on the opposite side were 4 91 2

May 28,1980 Tape No. 1876 AH-1 MR.F.ROWE: members of that administration which must have had Cabinet approval to announce that $500 million fisheries programme for this Province. And the prematurity of it cost the people of this Province, the taxpayers of this Province $661,000. And at that time, Mr. Speaker, we raised many questions, many questions relating to the concept of a superport and the whole concept of the direction of the fisheries at that time and we were called everything under the sun for simply asking questions about it. I can remember the hon.

Minister of Fisheries at the time questioning whether I was a true Newfoundlander or not and saying such foolish things as'Senator Rowe would be ashamed to see his son asking these type of questions in the House of Assembly' on that particular day.

Now we see a complete 360 degree about turn on the part of the Premier who is now Premier but was a senior Cabinet minister of the administration of that day. so, Sir, I submit that the Opposition of the day and of today, of that day and of tod~y,were right in raising legitimate and sensible questions relating to that whole concept and I am happy to hear that the government has come to its senses.

I am saddened to learn that it cost in excess of $600,000 for the studies to be done and I would further like the Premier or somebody to indicate to this House when questions were being raised last year with respect to the superport, Mr. Speaker, the answer coming back. from the opposite side was that site preparation was ongoing and acquisition of land was ongoing at that time. Now, Mr. Speaker, do we have to call for an investigation to find out whether there was in fact acquisiticn of land, whether in fact there was site preparation? And if land was acquired,by whom and for what purposes?

And if site preparation was ongoing,by whom and for what purposes? Was it related to,in fact,the fisheries or was it related to the oil industry in this Provice? I would like to know, Mr. Spea'IG~, ~hether in fact there was land acquisition, whether there was site preparation. Within the Department of Fisheries the obvious answer is no,because under the appropriate heading in the Department of Fisheries estimates there was $100,000 estimated for last 4913

May 28,1980 Tape No. 1876 AH-2 MR.F.ROWE: year, there was zero dollars spent. So I do not know whether it was spent under any other department of government. But , sir, I simply rise to establish the record that there has been a complete about face on the ~art of this administration unfortunately at a cost of in excess of some $600,000 and there are still questions to be raised with respect to the direction of the fishery and also the acquisition of land and site preparation out in Harbour Grace. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr.

Speaker, I am very sorry and regret very much that the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr.F.Rowe) forgot about an election that happened last June in which his party was defeated and this party was victorious and that as a result of that there have been certain policy decisions taken by this administration which might not necessaril y coincide with the policy decisions made . - by a former administration and that he will have to talk to the former Minister of Fisheries, that he will have to talk to the former Premier and express his consternation and his frustration with the way in which he perceived those policies to be directed.

It is just too bad, and I say to the hen. member for Trinity Bay de Verde, the political reality of the situation is that last June his party proceeded to put before the Newfoundland people a certain platform and this party on this side put forward a certain platform and unfortunately they were unsuccessful and fortunately we were successful and we have therefore since last June articulated a fisheries policy and I am glad to see that the hen. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde has followed in in line with this administration's policy on the fisheries.

I am very, very happy that he supports our present position on the fisheries. I am very happy that the hen. member and the people on the other side support our position on offshore ownership and control of the mineral resources on the Continental Shelf. I am very happy that the party on the opposite side support the whole question of transmission of electricity through Labrador so that 4914

May 28,1980 Tape No. 1876 AH-3 PRE MIER PECKFORD: we can get on with the job of trying to improve the life and the economic well being of our people. And I am sure as we announce new policies, creative, 4 9 1 5

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1877 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: L~aginative policies on this side. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to note that this day, this very day we have passed in this hon. House a number of reform pieces of legislation. SOME HON. MEMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORD: in our history - SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: Hear, hear! A very significant and historic day Hear, hear! - that I hope the press will note, an Environmental Assessment Act for the first time in our history.

You know, "An Act To Preserve Certain Parts Of The Province For Ecological And Wildlife Purposes," for an Arts Council that was never ever established before. You know, for a brand new distinctive flag, and in that line, Mr. Speaker - MR. F. ROWE: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! Order, please! A point of order, the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: The han. Premier now is entering debate on the Arts Council and the flag.

Now what the flag and the Arts Council have to do with resource development in this Province is beyond my comprehension and I would simply ask that in the ten minutes at his disposal he be relevant to the point at issue. MR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. To that point of order, the hon. the Premier. I am sorry, Mr.

Speaker, that the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde does not understand that I am talking about reform, and that I am talking about reform as it relates to fishery policy, reform as it relates to arts policy, reform as it relates to environmental policy, reform as it relates to almost everything in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and it is in thatvein that I was talking about the fisheries policy of this Province. It is a reform policy, one that,I am happy to say 1that the hon. member supports. 4916

May 28, 1980 HR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. JAMIESON: All right. MR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 1877 Mr. Speaker. To the point of order? No, no. No, Mr. Speaker. NM- 2 Oh, you have to rule on the point of order. I would rule there is no point of order but merely a difference of opinion between two hon. gentleman. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. You know, I am very, very happy to have the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde on my side. He is a strong advocate of resource management policy in the Province, and now that I have the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F.

Rowe) on my side I cannot go wrong. I cannot go wrong now. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: I am on the safest ground any politician in this Province could ever be on because now when I have the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde on my side on fishery.policy we are safe, we are secure forever more as it relates to the way we are going to prosecute the fishery, the way we are going to process our croducts, the way we are going to develop AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Prostitute the fishery?

Order, please! - the way we are going to develop a super- port or distribution port, no question. So I really thank the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde for allowing me this opportunity to put on the record once again, really no need to but the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde has allowed me to, and it is a great opportunity that this whole business of fisheries policy, the whole business of making sure that you have the facts before you move, making sure that the inshore fishery, that the people of Musgrave Harbour and Doting Cove in the member for Fogo's (Mr.

Tulk) district, that the people of Barr'd Islands, that the people of Island Harbour, that the people of St. Mary's-The Capes district, that Branch are safeguarded, that that is what we want to do first, that we want to make sure that the inshore fishery is protected, and after that 4917

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1877 NM - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: has been protected, and that scientifically there might be a legitimate surplus, at that point in time then we are looking at being able to exercise our technological flexibility to put on an offshore effort which will then supplement the fish processing facilities in Fogo, in Joe Batts Arm, in Seldom, in St. Anthony, in Creque, in Conche, even in Southeast Crouse. I mean you might even get a processing plant there going, in Englee. It is just a fantastic thing, and to think, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: on the day that we passed all this reform legislation, that consistent with that reform,that the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde would get up and support the government in such a stupendous way that he did, I think it is just fantastic. And once again we were unanimous on the Sergeant at Arms yesterday and now today we are unanimous on the fishery. The support that the Opposition has given this government is overwhleming and I do not know- you know,sooner or later there is going to he more people cross the House to this side, there is no question about it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I gave notice to the Minister of Lands and Forests,but I suspect he has not had an opportunity to get the answer. He may be looking for it now. It is a very straightforward question. Perhaps the Minister of Industry can answer it for me: Some time ago there were more than reports, hut there were reports as well as some work done on what I might describe as a mini-pulp mill concept in four or five locations around the Province, where certain kinds of wood would he simply advanced to the pulp stage.

They would be relatively small but they would provide a sizeable amount of employment and a certain amount of wood cutting and the like. I ask it 4918

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1878 so - 1 ~-:_D.:.._!!_~: particularly because I became aware of it through the likelihood of one such operation,if the plan worked out,being located in the Come by Chance area and I wonder if the Minister of Industrial Development (Mr. L. Barry) has heard about this plan or whether it is something that has any reality or any practicality to it. Could he answer that? MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) MR. L._~: The hen. the !!inister of Industrial Development. Mr. Speaker, I understand the Department of Forestry has looked at this concept.

There have been reports maybe I will let the minister, now that he is here, go into more detail - the concept has been explored - I will let the minister determine the extent, MR. C. POWER: MR. L, BARRY : MR. SPEAKER: MR. D. JAMIESON: {inaudible) is here. The mini-pulp mills. The hen. the Leader of the Opposition. I doubt if the minister wants me to repeat it.

I have mentioned the fact that I had an understanding that there · were explorations under way .about these o what I call mini pulp mills which would export relatively small amounts of pulp but there were about four or five locations around the Island or perhaps in Labrador as well,where these might have been practical. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. C. POWER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, my understanding of that situation was that several years ago there were feasibility reports begun and carried to a certain stage to check on the economic viability of having export operations in actually four given locations in L,e Province.

The thing was never carried through to its ultilllate climax, if you want, partlv because the linezboard mill in Stephenville, l understand, '!!Ort of took away a large supply of wood•. · In particular on the East coast, in the Come by ehance area ,, there was one of these areas being considered to take into account all of the wood East of the Bonavista Peninsula, taking all of that wood and channelling it out through come by Chance. What happened was that there was a great deal of difficulty then with the paper companies which had a lot of very solid guaranteed 4919

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1878 SD - 2 MR. C. POWER: rights of timber in those areas and were not willing at that stage to give up their rights in those given areas especially with the Labrador Linerboard Mill coming on it sort of got lost in the Labrador Linerboard Mill shuffle. Now, in the last several months we have been doing a lot of feasibility reports on the Bonavista Peninsula, the Great Northern Peninsula and Happy Valley- Goose Bay to see if we can get involved in small pulping operations.

That being 4eemed to be viable in the Bonavista area, we are now looking at the possibility of a wood export operation that primarily debarks wocd, chips it and further processes it to the point that it does not go out as pulp but goes out as a fairly processed product. And as I say, we had a delegation in Europe, there are some Europeans coming here at the end of next week, and there will be some persons going from Newfoundland to, particularly Norway and Sweden and Spain,where there is a demand for this type of wood <;:hips in the very short future. MR. S • NEARY: M.r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (butt) MR. S.

NEARY: The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, first I want to answer hon. the Premier; the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that the people in Harbour Grace districc have been had, they have been taken by the government. MR. G. WARREN:: By this government. MR. S. NEARY: By this government and the hon. gentleman can not brush it off again as he has been doing now for the last year by saying, 'That was a previous administration'; The hon. gentleman was a senior minister in that administration who did not resign because of ill~conceived concepts like the superport in Harbour Grace.

The hon. gentleman did not resign over it. The hon. gentleman took the attitude, here is his attitude, Mr. Speaker,and he says this all of the time about various serious other matters that happened when he was a member of the Cabinet, a senior minister in the Moores' administration, he says, 'Well, I did not resign because I thought I would stay in the Cabinet for the good of Newfoundland'. Well, was it for the good of Newfoundland or was 49?.0

~1 ay 28. 1980 !-!R . S . N E .~R Y : ~R. G. WARREN: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. s. NEARY: Tape No. 187 8 so - 3 it for his own good he stayed in the Cabinet? It was neithe:t" one of them. Oh, oh. Por the good of Newfoundland he stayed in th!l Cabinet.'When Moores was up to his skulduggery, his ill.:.conceived concepts and his slieveenerie~,; and his crookedne~,;s he did net re~,;ign because he said, "t want to stay in the Cabinet because it is good for Newfoundland" • It was not good for the hon. gentleman.

I WGilld submit, Your Honour, the reason the hen. gentleman did not resign was because he thought it was good for himself and not good for Newfoundland . Ar.d you can not take these serious matters involving sUbstantial expenditures of taxpayers' money, investigating the possibility of a superPOrt for Harbour Grace,and then going through an election and getting the member for Hamour Grace (Mr. H. Youp.

g) elected, and only by the skin of this teeth I might say, elected on the premise that Harbour Grace is going to bOQI!I. MR. G. W~ : Never again, never again. MR. S. NEARY: She is going to get a superport. And now the government. has done a double flip, they have tumed themselves inside put, they have revened themselves, 49 21

May 28, 1980 Tape 1879 EC - l MR. S • NEARY: they have cancelled the superport for Harbour Grace. It is cancelled, Mr. Speaker. And the rea~on the hon. gentleman gave for cancelling it, by the way, is not the real reason, because the concept was not conceived on the Northern cod stock. That is another big red herring, a big red whale that the hon. gentleman is dragging into this matter. The fact of the matter is, Sir, the people of Harbour Grace have been taken, they have been conned. They have been conned by the Tory propaganda, by the Tory strategy now for eight years in this Province.

The people of Harbour Grace were duped and conned by Mr. Moores and they were conned by the present Premier and his henchmen. It is a sha111e! It is a crying sha~~~e! Now we are told there is going to be no superport in Harbour Grace. Well, the hon. the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. H. Young) who went around and campaigned on the fact that there was going to be a superport should now resign and put his seat on the line, put his political future to the people of Harbour Grace who thought thev were getting a superport. Mr.

Speaker 1 the superport concept, so we were told in this House - and the hon. gentleman did not resign from the Cabinet when we were told, because he said, 'Oh, no, I have to stay here; I have to stay in the Cabinet for the sake of Newfoundland, ' not for the sake of his own political hide or the hide of his Party, not for that. Newfoundlanders first. 1IN HON. MEMBER: He did not have the guts to do that. MR. s. NEARY: No, he did not have the courage.

We had an expericent in this Province, hon. members will remember. several foreign ships brought in their fish to Harbour Grace and to 1 Maeystown I believe it was, frozen fish put ashore in Harbour Grace and in Maeystown or down on the Burin Peninsula. I a111 not sure if it was Burin and Marystown or just Marystown. The whole idea behind the superport concept was to process foreign caught fish in Newfoundland waters within the 200 mile limit. That was the original idea, that was the concept behind the superport. Instead of having to take the fish all the way 4922

May 28, 1980 Tape 1879 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY: back to Europe it would be processed - joint ventures, I think it was called - processed here in Newfoundland, or semi-processed in Newfoundland. We were opposed to joint ventures, Mr. Speaker, because we claimed the fish should be put ashore, processed by Newfoundland, plants owned by Newfoundlanders and not by foreigners or owned jointly by Newfoundlanders and foreigners. Now tha~ was the whole purpose behind the superport concept.

The Northern cod stock thing only came up a few weeks ago when the bon. gentleman now decides to use it as an excuse for cancelling the superport. Well, I would submit, Mr. Speaker, all those people who bought land, these speculators, people in high places who went over and bought up the waterfront and bought all the land in Harbour Grace, are not going to be very pleased with the hon. member. MR. H. YOUNG: (Inaudible) fish. MR. S . NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, there were a number of people who bought land in Harbour Grace. They are not going to be very pleased now with the administration.

But I tell you who is not going to be pleased. The people who are going to be more displeased with the administration are going to be the ordinary people of Harbour Grace district - MR. D. HANCOCK: district. MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! Not only in Harbour Grace - the people who were conned by the bon. gentleman and the Premier of this Province, the people who were fooled into thinking that there was going to be a superport in Harbour Grace and that the district of Harbour Grace would boom. The fact of the matter is, Sir, that the whole project was ill-conceived from the beginning.

It was a figment of somebody's imagination. It has cost the taxpayers plenty. I would like to know - I wish the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) were here. Perhaps the Premier can send out now and get us the figures of how much money has been spent so far in developing the superport in Harbour Grace that has now been cancelled. The superport now is just as dead as some of the stiffs that the hon. gentleman has put into the ground in the last three or four years. It is just as dead as that. 4923

Hay 28, 1980 Tape No. 1880 EL - l ~:R. S. NEARY: ------ - is just as dead as the people the hon. gentleman had on the cold slabs in his morgue. Just as dead a~ that. ~~§..:__ _ _ Just as dead as you were on Bell Island. I did not run away from Harbour Grace like you ran away from Bell Island. MR. s. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I challenge the hon. gentle~an now. I challenge him now to do the honourable thing,the hon- curable and decent thing, resign his seat and go back to the people of Harbour Grace . MR. YOUNG: ----- ~fuat did you not (inaudible) vote (inaudible) . MR . NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I challenge the hon. gentle- man , if he is as honourablo: and decent as he thinks he is and if he thinks he has the support in Harbour Grace district that he thinks he has,then I would submit, Sir, that the hon. thing for him to do and I throw this challenge out to the hon. gentleman. NR. YOUNG: (inaudible) the next election . HR. NEARY: Oh, the next election. Oh yes, he is going to stay here now, he is going to follow the Premier's example now. He is going to stay there for the good of the Harbour Grase District not fer the good of his own politic a~ scalp, his own political hide - MR.

YOUNG: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: -that is not worth very much at this moment and when the word goes out to Harbour Grace today that the Premier announced the cancellation of the superport in Harbour Grace I would say the telephone , the !-.on. gentleman's telephone will not stop tonight, and it will not be for customers, for the lack of customers. MR. YOUNG: Not anymore. Not anymore a university professor (inaudible) . 4924

Hay 28, 1980 HP.. NEARY: that - MR. WAR?.EN : MR. NE!I .RY: reen happening to the Tape No. 1880 EL - 2 Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is He is gone. He is gone the next time. - this is typical, typical of what has promises made by the Tory Party when they were campaigning then to become the administration of this Province, the government of this Province. HR. WARREN: Look at the ~tinister of Education. MR. NEARY: That is typical,typical, and the hon.Premier yes- terday proved how paranoid he is after getting about being reminded of these things. How paranoid. Holy Moses, Holy God - Holy God, Holy Moses.

Why I have seen better down opposite Bowring Park.- better performances than that. The hon. gentleman obviously has become paranoid. The hon. gentleman is going to have to sit there and take it day in and day out and he is going to be reminded whether he likes it or not. PREMIER PECKFORD: landers. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Sit down and stop embarrassing Newfound- Oh, listen to him. Order, please! Before recognizing the next hon. member I would like to point out that the time on the Resource Estimates Committee will end at 4:29. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you very much.

I thought all the time had been expired. I would like to respond to the hon. member for LaPoile(S. Neary) besides commenting from my seat which was irregular to the rules of the House to say that his ongoing oratory continues to embarrass many of the people of this Province. But, let me just say that in my comments on the distribution port and the superport, we in no way 4925

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1880 EL - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: cancelled the concept of a port in that area or in Harbour Grace. What we are saying is, and we are glad that there is some support on the other side, obviously the support is from ~~e member for Trinity - Say de Verde (F.Rowe) and is not shared by the member for LaPoile(Mr.Neary). Obviously the member for LaPoile in his comments now,has cast some confusion on the position of the Liberal Opposition as it relates to the Northern Cod controversy. Is the bon. the me~ber for LaPoile saying that he is against the inshore fishery?

Is the hen. the member for LaPoile saying that he does not care about the inshore fishery? Because he h~fpens to be the member for LaPoile which therefore is not dependent upon the Northern cod, he is no longer concerned with the fishery of Harbour Grace. He is no longer concerned with the fishery of Fogo. He is no longer concerned with the fishery of St. Anthony. He is only concerned with his own selfish interests and those have to do with the Gulf fishery as it relates to the district of LaPoile.

And I find that unfortunate that on the one hand the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde ver.y, very honourably carne out in full support of the government's position on the business of the Northern cod and on the inshore fishery and yet one of his own ~olleagues ~~<•ould get up - MR. F. ROWE: A point of order, 11r.Speaker. PREMIER PECKFORD: - just after him and completely contradict that kind of position. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A point of order, the hen. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde .. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is obviously just twisting words here. I stand by what I have said.

PREMIER PECKFORD: (Inaudible) 'Fred'. 4926

1-!ay 2S, 19 30 Tape No . 1S80 !:L - 4 ~-~ . ~ . RO:·i£ : The hon . r.ember for LaPoil9(£. Neary) .so~ up and sl':o~ed the goverrurent - PRE~ PEC'<FORO: That is not a point of order, Xr .Speaker . HR. F. RO!VE.< - for what they are ane that is making these grandiose elec~ion prcois es before an election and not keeping them after the election <tnd that is the point that he was makinq. SO~ HON . ~~~mE RS: Hear, hear! ~!R. F. ROWE: It has nothing to do - we are in total agreement with the inshore fishery and whatever the Premier can say - PREMIER PECKFORO: That is not a ~int of order. MR '.

F • ROWB: Hill the Premie r sit down, l'.r. Speaker . PPL'!ll:R PECKFORO: '::ha t is not a point of orde r, ~~ r .S peaker. MR • RQ;."E : - he can continue on to say - A.'J HO!'I • :-!EMBER: Sit do~~.Go ho~e out of it . MR . RC~i£: The hon Premier can say it 3S long as he "'-ants to, tl:e r,e is no wed ge; t.he re is no differe."'lc e of opi::~ion PRE~ER PECKFORD: Yes , it is. MIL ROI-:E : - betwee n the hon. memcer for LaPoile ----(S . Neary) or any member of the caucus and myself on that particular issue . l•le '"'ere talking about two different subjects .

One was a broken promis e and one was fisheries policy- Sm~ HON . MEMBE~ : Oh , oh ! PRE~R PECKFORD: ~lr. Speaker, to that poin t of orde r. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order. plea se! The hon . the ?remier. • 4927 •

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1981 DW - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: I cannot help it if the Liberal Opposition are crying, are cry­ babies because now they cannot find this administration wanting on fisheries policy, that they are talking about history, they are talking about a former administration. I cannot help that, they can cry away. Cry, cry, cry! All I say is that today in this hon. House the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) sald one thing on the fishery and the member for LaPoile (Mr~ Neary) said another. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): Order, please! The time has expired.

And I would rule there is no point of order but the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde took an opportunity to clarify remar~s attributed to him. The motion is that this House concur with the report of the Resource Estimates Committee. All those in favour 'aye', contrary 'nay', carried. Moving right along to Social Services Estimates Committee; Social Services, Consumer Affairs and Environment, Justice, Health and Education. The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I am just wondering if the hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment (Mrs.

Newhook) will be back this evening because what I am going to say in the next five or six minutes will be of concern for the environment of this Province. 4928

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1881 ow - 2 MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, back in December this government appointed a public inquiry made up of Mr. Clarence Powell, Mr. Hudson Davis and the Rev. Francis Buckle to have public meetings in Labrador to check out the viability of the Kitts-Michelin uranium deposit. Now, that public hearing was held in the month of December.

I have not got in front of me now the stipulations. set down for the inquiry but they were to report back to the minister within a given period.And subsequently the ministe~ within thirty days upon receipt of that public inquiry, she was going to release it to the public and to the House of Assembly. The hon. minister received that document from the Chairman of the Powell Inquiry on April lOth. and today it is May 27th., it is forty-seven days later and it is still not released to the public. Mr.

Speaker, I have a lot of serious questions to ask that hon. minister but as the House Leader said, if the hon. minister is not in her place we have capable ministers over there to answer the questions. I hope now, when I am finished,that the hon. Government House Leader (Mr . Marshall) or the Minister of - here we go, I know it is going to get answered - the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) is going to answer it. Okay, fine. What is the reason that the public of Newfoundland and Labrador do not have access to that public report?

Is that public report such a confidential report that the public of Newfoundland is not s~~posed to see it? Did the•public of Newfoundland 'have to give information at the public inquiry? Mr. Speaker, I bet I could give some of my own personal feelings why it is not before them. Because number one; the report says, 'No development', that is number one, that is the first reason. And this government is trying to con itself, 4929

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1881 ow - 3 MR. G. WARREN: they are trying to make up some ways and means of getting Mr. Powell and Mr. Hudson and the Rev. Francis Buckle to change their minds. They have already gone back to them and asked for clarification on recommendations. Do you mean to tell me that Mr. Clarence Powell have not got enough ideas, enough common sense to give recommendations to this government, that they have to waste the time and energy and the anticipation of the people of this Province in not letting them know what is in this report< This report is saying no, that is why.

This report is saying, 'No development', and the government have not got the gall to get up and stand up and say, 'Look, we are going to have no development on the Kitts-Michelin uranium deposit' ­ akayf-but what are we going to do for Happy Valley/Goose Bay who depend on it for 200 or 300 jobs?Now,we have a large

section of Labrador which has to depend on Happy Valley/Goose Bay and this government does not have any contingent plans what­ soever for any kind of industrial development for that particular area. And the only thing they are relying on is for this mine inside of Makkovik and Postville to go ahead. So the Powell 4930

May 28, 1980 Tape 1882 EC - 1 MR. G. WAR.qEN : Commission is saying no to it. I will stipulate now -I undez;stand 1 I could be corrected tomorrow when the minister gives her report. She has been saying for the last three or four weeks, 'tomorrow', 'tomorrow', 'tomorrow'. I do not know when'tomorrow'will come. But I would say there are conditions laid out .

I would say from this report there are conditions laid out that no development but 'B~~X - you go back to the drawing board: You go back and prove, Look, we have an Environmental Assessment Bill passed in this House of Assembly a few days ago; now, we have criteria to meet in this Environment Bill, but you have not met those criteria, ' you have not proved to us that this mine will be environmentally safe. Meanwhile, on the other hand, BRINEX is sitting back. Because we all know the market for uranium is very, very soft at the present time.

So with the procrastination of this government and the public inquiry being so long - and the minister knows, well, we are talking about six months since the report started until the minister received it, and probably it could be several days yet before we receive it.

I: am concerned for the peopl ·e in Happy Valley- Goose Bay.By this project not going ahead ,and not gettin g 200 or 300 jobs that were pretty well guaranteed by ministers of this House- if BRINEX goes ahead there will be 200 or 300 jobs, By saying no to this project the government does not have any continuing plans whatsoever for any other kind of development in Happy Valley - Goose Ba y. Mr. Speaker, the minister in her bud get has allotted $144,000 for abandoned vehicle disposal.

Now, I do not disagree with this whatsoever but I am sure there must be ways and means for this administration - well , maybe; I just thought about something, maybe the minister is waiting to play politics, and the Cabinet itself is waiting to play politics.

Are we waiting to have our Cabinet meeting down in Happy Valley - Goose Bay when we are going to make a few grand announcements about some development and also at the same time delay this process of the BRINEX report until after we have our Cab in et meeting~ I will be surprised to see how this Cabinet will stand up wi th the twenty -seven briefs, maybe more, maybe less. We will use the fi gure 4931

May 28, 1980 Tape 1882 EC - 2 MR. G. WARREN: twenty-seven- there may be more, but many, many briefs that will be presented to the Cabinet when they arrive in Goose Bay. And they are from people who are concerned about the lack of this government with respect to industrial development and job creation in Labrador. I would like to ask the Minister of l.abour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn) how many jobs - not in the past six months, the past seven years - have this government created in Labrador? I believe you can count on your fingers and toes the number of jobs that this government have created in Labrador.

Well, I can tell the hon. minister how many jobs have been lost in Labrador because of this goverrunent. There have been many hundreds of jobs lost in Labrador because of the lack of attitude and lack of interest that this government are showing towards Labrador. Mr. Speaker, I have some concerns, concerns that have been expressed by all people, that in Industrial Development, in Consumer Affairs, in Education, in Health, any department you name, you look at any department whatsoever - that there is a lack of attitude of this government towards Labrador and Labrador's future. MR.

SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker; in literature there is an individual created by Cervantes called Don Quixote, who went through life tilting at windmills. 4932

May 28,1980 Tape No. 1883 AH-1 MR. BARRY: Now, at least Don Quixote had real windmills to tilt at. We see the individual, the member opposite , Mr. Speaker, attempting to tilt at windmills but first he has to build some straw windmills to tilt at. First he has to try and, Mr. Speaker, misquote the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment (Mrs Newhook) and to try and give the picture of the minister refusing to release a report when I sat here in this very House ,as did other members, Mr.

Speaker, yesterday . and heard the minister say that the report would be released within a couple of days, publicly released within a couple of days. Mr. Speaker, there were certain members opposite in government who sat on reports for so long that they had small reports • There are reports, Mr. Speaker, that are still down in the dungeons of this building that we have not been able to find, that never saw the light of day. They have never seen the light of day, Mr.

Speaker.~d now we get the hon. gentleman opposite getting up and saying,because a minister is saying that we are going to release a report in a couple of days-he has to create the straw windmill because she does not ~ump at the instant . . the member says , "Let us have the report." Well, Mr. Speaker , we have a government here, we have a government that believes in openness, we have a government that believes in the release of information,Mr. Speaker, and there has been a commitment, Mr. Speaker, that this Kitts-Michelin Report will be made public within a few days and,Mr. Speaker, it will be.

So I think that that is one straw windmill that never started spinning. It did not stand up long enough for the hon. member to tilt at it to knock it down. He could not get it to stand up, Mr. Speaker, so that is his first point. He goes on then to create another straw windmill which is that somehow the report of the Powell Commission is going to decide the future of the project.

The mandate of th~ commission is to report upon the public reaction of the residents of Labrador with respect to the project and then there will be a decision made by government, by Cabinet as to what the next step is~Nhether it is an out and out refusal, whether it is an approval, whether it is a qualified 4933

May 28,1980 Tape No. 1883 AH-2 MR. BARRY: approval, whether it is a qualified refusal, there will be a decision made by Cabinet. Now, Mr. Speaker, the other point, I think, is a matter of the philosophical difference in approach between members on this side of the House and members opposite,is that the hon. member opposite is trying to create this myth that it is government who creates jobs, that it is government who plucks jobs out of the air. Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province elected this government - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! MR.

BARRY: - because they accepted this government's philosophy that it is the free enterprise system, it is the free enterprise system, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON . ME~IBERS : MR. SPEAKER: (Baird) right to be h~ard in silence. MR. BARRY: Oh, oh! Order, please! The minister has the Mr. Speaker, oh it smarts, it smarts, Mr. Speaker, when you begin to point out the flaws, the weak logic, the flawed philosophy that hon. members opposite engage in.

Mr.Speaker, it is the private citizens of this Province, the free enterprisers, the entrepreneurs who will create jobs, It is government's responsibility to create the proper environment to permit the free enterprise system to do what it does best, i.e. to create jobs. And, Mr. Speaker, we have a commitment on the part of this government to create the environment, to create the environment that will permit the free enterprise system to see the free enterprise system create at least 40,000 jobs over the next five years. 4934

May 28, 1980, Tape 1884, Page 1 -- apb MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, if you look at the employment statistics that are coming out over this past Winter you will see that we are well ahead of our sc~edule. We are well ahead of our schedule, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Why do you not raise your arms like the other fellow up there? MR. DINN: Thirteen thousand last month. MR. BARRY: MR. DINN: month. MR. BARRY: in ernploy.men t. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: How many? Thirteen thousand last Thirteen thousand increase Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker, this government is taking a rational,responsible approach to creating the proper business environment, the proper environment with respect to the protection of the environment, if that makes sense, and, Mr. Speaker, we will see jobs created in this Province because this government believes in the ability of our citizens. This government, Mr.Speaker, believes that we have people in this Province who have the entrepreneurship, who have the willingness to take a risk, who have the ingenuity to see how to make a dollar and to earn a good living and to create employment for their fellow Newfoundlanders, Mr.

Speaker. And that is the responsibility that this government accepts, not the responsibi-lity of make work projects which was all we ever saw when members on the other side, to the misfortune of this Province, formed part of the government of the Province. 4935

May 28, 1980, Tape 1884, Page 2 -- apb MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we will set the proper environment for job creation and whether it be, Mr. Speaker, at five jobs a day, or whether it will be at 13,000 - was it last month? - these jobs will be created - SOME HON. MEMBERS: 9h, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Baird): Order, please! MR. BARRY: - but they will be created by a rational, reasoned, orderly approach to development and not by the helter skelter politics, the helter skelter madcap schemes that we saw hon. members opposite support when they were in government. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, no wonder they call him the school boy debater. As a matter of fact, I attended a debate very recently involving eleven and twelve year old boys and I must say most of them, if not all, were much better at debating than the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: MR. BARRY: have (inaudible) • }'I_R, THOMS: long enough you might. MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: Much better. Su~denly a promise (inaudible) let us If you close your mouth Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, we heard that this government is not now going to create the 40,500 jobs. No, that was another big Tory conservative lie that was presented to this Province in June of this year. Now the jobs are going to come by without any work, without anything being done by this government. And there has 4936

May 28, 1980, Tape 1884, Page 3 -- apb MR. THOMS: been nothing done, Mr. Speaker, by this government since June 18, absolutely nothing! All we have heard about is the oil and gas, the confrontation with Ottawa, the confrontation in the fisheries, the confrontation with Nova Scotia, the confrontation between Newfoundlanders, but I heard very .little from the Premier of this Province - MR. BARRY: Would I be permitted to ask a question? MR. NEARY: No, No. MR. THOMS: No, of course not. I have heard nothing from the Premier of this Province about the 40,500 jobs that were going to be created until.the Minister of- MR.

BARRY: of order. MR. SPEAKER(Baird): Mr. Speaker, on a point Order, please·! A point of order. The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: The hon. member is sweeping me up with his oratory here. I am going to have to leave for a few minutes but I am not sure if I can - it was the only way I could break the trance of his oratory, to rise on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have a point of order? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, if I could get to the point of order.

I wonder if the hon. member would not misinterpret the remarks either of myself or of the Premier that are made and are in Hansard. If he is going to quote us quote us properly. But in closing I just wonder if - MR. HANCOCK: point of order. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, there is no If I could finish. I just wonder if the hon. member opposite could explain ho't'l the decision just confirmed by Hr. Rc:npkey to scrap 4937

May 28, 1980, Tape 1884, Page 4 -- apb MR • .BARRY: the synchrolift for St. John's, how he sees that creating jobs on the part of the federal government? SOME BON. MEMBERS: SO.t-!E HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Baird): please! MR. THOMS: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKli:R: Hear, hear! Oh , oh! Order, please! Order, To the point of order, To the point of order, The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I was just going to suggest that if the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) wants to know what Mr. Rompkey' s philosophy is on the synchrolift, I talked with Mr.

Rompkey as early as this morning and no decis .ion had been made on the ;;;ynchrolift. Why does he not ask Mr. Rompkey or is be not talking to Ottawa these days, again? SOME HON. .MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To the point of order. There is no point of order, but a difference of opinion between two hon. members. 4938

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1885 EL - l MR. SPEAKER (Baird) The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, now that the schoolboy debater has left maybe I can get the Minister of Justice(G. Ottenheimer) in and have a few words about that particular department.It certainly did not take the Minister of Justice of this Province very long to become as arrogant QS the Premier of this Province and probably as much so the Minister of Mines and Energy. It is a job sometimes to know which one is ~re irrat- ional when he gets up flinging the arms 1 the Minister of Mines and Energy(L.

Barry) or the Premier of this Province. Well, Mr. Speaker, speakinq about the administration of justice in this Province, you know, it is passing strange. I have been asking the Minister of Justice .. who has a tendency, to hide his head in the sand ~n matters relating to the administration of justice in ~his Province. MR. WARREN: Now MR. L. THOMS: You know, I have asked him several times now since the House was - I think I probably asked this question back as far as August of this year. Mr.

Speaker, you know, if I were to go into a room and I saw two white-coated gentlemen, one on either side of the Premier of this Province or the President of Council, I would i~~ediately form a certain judgement about what was wr~ng with the Premier of this Provincg or the President of the Council (W. Marshall). I would i~mediately form a juaqement as to what was wrong. AN HON. ME!1BER: (Inaudible) MR. THOMS: Wnen you walk into a courtroom in this Province, Mr.

Speaker, when you walk into a courtroom,as I did only two or three days ago, and when you see the judge, when you see the prisoner sitting in a prisoner's rox- a prisoner's box is what locally is known as a dock-with two uniformed police officers ,one on either side 1 4939

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 188 5 EL - 2 l1R. THOMS: ----- apart , Mr. Speaker,Erom the inconveniences that it causes a lawyer who has to move from his seat up front to go back and speak to the prisoner - MR. HANCOCK: And the Money that is beinq wasted by the (Inaudible) and all. MR. THOMS: -Mr. Speaker, it makes a farce cf the presumption of innocence that is so vitally important to our common law system in the free world. A ~an is innocent until proven guilty.

You go down to nm: Supreme Court today - I think the trial is still on - walk into that court and see the prisoner sitting in bet\ ~een two uniformed R01P officers of this Province, and the first thing you ar<!! going to think is that the man is guilty, when it should be just the other way around. A man is innocent until proven guilt y. Now, Mr.Speaker, the Minister of Justice (G.Ottenheimer) says, oh, we are negotiating.There are no neootiations necessary to correct - you, know, the United States is at least a hundred years ahead of us on this matter, at least a hundr~d years. MR.

JAMIESON : Some other Provinces (inaudible) HR. L. THOMS: They are at least a hundred years ahead of us. It does not take any great deal of doing to rip out the prisoner's box and to let the accused person sit with his lawyer where he shoula be sitting. We do not need - the Minister of Justice said he expects to have it done within the next couple of months. You do not need two months. All you need are two carpenters and a little bit of carpet to put down where you took out the prisoner's box. I know the wheels of justice gring slow by Mr.

Speaker, but with the present Minister of Justice they certainly do grind exceedingly slow. l·lr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice has been presented recently with a brief from the Canadian Bar Association. They had that as their first recommendation - their first recommendation. 4940

1-!ay 28, 1980 Tape No. 1885 EL - 3 MR. L. THOMS : A second one they had was that the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary be expanded to include Labrador. MR. NE.I'RY: You would not know but that it was original. 4941

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1886 GH-1 MR. THOMS: That is right. You would not know but it was original, you would not know but it is original. Now , 1 disagree with the Canadian Bar Association when they say put them there to show everybody that we own Labrador. Well, Mr. Speaker, 1 do not need the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or anybody to confirm to me that Labrador is a part of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

But 1 would like to see the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary not only in Labrador, 1 would like to see them in Gander, Grand Falls, Corner Brook, and all over this Province. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of things that should - I might add, Mr. Speaker, there is one recommendation where I have no problem in agreeing with the Canadian Bar Association, and that is to amend the Conveyancing Act. That is something that should be done and it should be done immediately, because too many people in this Province today are having their homes sold out from under them and injustices and inequities do occur4 Mr.

Speaker, if 1 hold a mortgage on a house anywhere in this Province today, I can proceed under, I believe it is,

Section 5 of the Conveyancing Act, have the property sold, convey the property to myself, turn around and make a huge profit, make a huge profit on the sale of that house, and I do not have to account to the original owners, and that is an injustice. I think the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) will agree that that lends itself to certain inequities. That is th~ sort of thing, Mr. Speaker, that can be done immediately. It does not have to wait, it does not have to wait. My ten minutes are up, Mr. Speaker. I am sure 1 will have other opportunities to speak in this debate before it is over. MR.

SPEAKER: (Baird) MR. OTTENHE1MER: The han. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, to comment briefly on matters raised by the hon. gentleman. The first matter he is referring to; of course, han. members of the House were aware of his views and, indeed, mine on that matter from a Question and Answer a few days ago, 4942

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1886 GH-2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: and that is with respect to the accused being accompanied by police in court. As I explained, that practice has stopped with respect to the accused appearing on arraignment, and we are discussing with the judiciary to have the practice stopped in other instances as well. The han. gentleman referred to the brief of the Newfoundland Branch of the Canadian Bar Association, which was submitted to the government yesterday with a copy to the han. ~entleman, I think, the han. the House Leader as well.

First, let me say that we welcome, you know, receiving this brief and briefs from the Newfoundland Branch of the Canadian Bar Association, and I think it is a practice, certainly, to be commended and, hopefully, to be continued because the more input and suggestions and ideas which come forward from quarters interested in the area of legal reform and related subjects, certainly the better.

With respect to the han. gentleman's suggesti~n of amendments to the Conveyancing Act, I think there was a brief question and answer or some brief discussion of that when the estimates of the department were being considered and that it is a matter - MR. THOMS: It is a terribly unfair provision, it/really is. Would you not agree? MR. OTTENHEH-1ER: - on which the department intends to , ~ move. I do not think they were specifically the matters with respect to justice that the han. gentleman referred to.

What we do intend to do, of course, is to go through the brief carefully with a response to the Newfoundland Branch of the Canadian Bar. A number of the matters which they refer to, of course, there are policy decisions identical, you know, with their recommendation. With respect to recommendation, 'Refrain from using police prosecutors'; we hope to achieve within about a three-year period,where all prosecutions can be by regular prosecutors legally trained, lawyer prosecutors. Certainly, the first emphasis there would be indictable offences, and we hope to reach that goal, 4943

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1887 SD - 1 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: you know , within the next two to cr. ree year period. I think , and it is only fair to sa~ that, you know, one could not give a guarantee that there would never be a prosecution by other than a la'''Yer prosecutor~ I understand that happens in even the wealthiest provinces, Ontario and others, at times in isolated areas or depending on the nature of the charge. So I just want to make that point.

Another suggestion or recommendation they make is about the hiring of provincial court judges being confined to legally trained applicants and that, in fact, is our policy.

We do that and one exception made and one only and made conscientiously and made in terms of policy so it is not an exception to our policy,! suppose, it is a refinement of the policy; our policy is that only legally trained persons will be appointed to the provincial court with the addendum that in the case of a native Labradorian - we were hoping to be able to appoint, a qualified native Labradorian which ,in fact,we have done in the person of Mr. Igooliorte.

Obviousry ,,we are very pleased about that, I the first native bom Labradorian to be appointed to the provincial Bench and that certainly is very worthwhile and we are pleased that happened. A number of the matters here I would not wish to, until sufficient thought and that is given to make an immediate kind of reply • No doubt a lot of thought went into the brief and it is our hope that an equal amount of thought , obviously, will go into the reply. But I think I have commented on the matters with respect to Justice mentioned by the hon. gentleman.

I just wanted to make the overall point that certainly we welcome this brief and indeed other briefs from the Newfoundland Branch of the Canadian Bar Association and other groups, individuals, etc. who have an interest in the •1arious matters of legal reform and related areas. MR . SPEAKER: (Baird) The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer) and I hope things do move just a little more quickly than they have been in the past. I would 4944

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1887 SD - 2 MR. L~_.J'llO~S: like to, if I may, pose - if the member for St. John's NortQ (Mr. J. Carter) would let ~ have the attention of the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer)- MR. G. OTTENHEIMEP: Go ahead, I am listening. MR. L. THOMS: You are listening, okay. You know, there is no legal maxim • that justice delayed is justice denied. The Canadian Bar Association has brought out the point that in District Courts in St. John's at the present time that cases will not be heard for at least two years.

Now, they are saying that cases are not heard for two years which means to say that the case then has to be heard and then an adjudication made so that you could be, from the time of issuing a writ and having all of the documentation filed in connection therewith you could be as long as three years before getting a judgement. Pnd,also,they refer to the appeals from the Supreme Court where there is a great deal of time before judgements are handed down. And as I say, justice delayed - and this is the !leterrent.

The problem here is that this is a real deterrent in this Province today, · the time lag from the time an action is started until it is finished· because of our lack of facilities, lack of judges, etc. And I was wondering if the Minister of Justice could tell us whether or not this has been considered, I am sure it has been,and give us some indication of what we plan to do about it? MR. SPEAKER: (Baird) The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, on those specific elements, yes, we are planning and this, hopefully, will be done next week. 'lbere is such a thing as an Attomey General's Act which usually makes, you know, amendments to specific areas and one there will be - it is recommended in the brief as well, and this is something that we had intended to do for some tirne,wher~y the District Court may send to the Provincial Court matters referred to them but which could come within the jurisdiction of the Provincial Court involving costs not in excess of $1,000, So, that will obviously ha~~ a certain effect.

It will not solve all the problems, I do not suppose anything will, but everything helps to so do. 4945

May 28, 1980 Tape l'o . 1887 SD - 3 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: And with respect to the backlog of matters in the supreme coun going to appeal; there is a certain backlog there. As a l!latter of fact, it is quantified but I forget the number of pages or man-ho11rs that it is now.

Aa,d there after discussion with the court officials _, we have decided to advertise for proposals lfrom professional people who will Coll!e in for that period of weeks or months or whatever it is to get that backlog, which goes )Jack some time, to get that caught up with and then it is their feeling that things will be able to stay eurrent when this ba'*log is caught up.

So there will be advertisements asking for P=t>OSals from, I am not suz:e what they are called, like overtime or manpower, you know, the}" are groups who specifiCally take on a specific assignment of t:yping and transcribing, that type of thing and we do plan to do that. I think, also, that the former matter that I mentione .d with respect to District court, being able to send to the ­ Provincial Court these certain mat~ers will help out there. It is hoped as well that the creation.

C?f a judicial district for Labrador will obviously, in my opinion, be a fexward move and it will certainly help in that direction. 4946

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1888 MB - l MR. L. THOMS: It will be another factor which I think will help in that direction. And,of course,one of the real im­ portances there is having in that important part of our Province an actual district court and judge, a person who will be based in Happy Valley - Goose · Bay area. I think these are the specific matters the hon. gentleman referred to. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. G. WARREN: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wish to put my five cents worth in. First I would like to say that the correspondence I had with the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) I thank him for, however, I am concerned - MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: What was that? MR. G. WARREN: The correspondence concerning - I will speak about it now as I go along - the correspondence in connection with ·-- - the cells in Happy Valley - Goose Bay. The cells in Happy Valley - Goose Bay are overcrowded an~ really it is unhealthy to a certain degree.~owever, . Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice a question con- cerning what rationale would be behind having a correctional center in Clarenville~ I believe that