LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Rus­ sell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiv­ ing Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no ur able Memb er for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain Resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Vir­ den, report of Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the 1979 Annual Report of the Manitoba Human Rights Commission. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAkER: Before Oral Questions I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the Speaker's gallery where we have an Icelandic Cultural Group in our gallery. This group consists of Mr. John Asgierson, Mr. and Mrs. Halldorson, Mr. and Mrs. Gud­ jonsson and Mr. and Mrs. Bill Holm.

They have been touring the province and several Icelandic communities. On behalf of the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. We also have 80 students of Grade 10, 11 and 12 stand­ ing from the Nelson Mcintyre Collegiate with an Ex­ change Group from Vancouver, British Columbia. This school is under the direction of Mrs. Glade and it's in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Northern Affairs. Can the Minister of Northern Affairs advise whether he advised the MMF that core funding for the MMF has been tied up due to the fact that his estimates have not yet been dealt with? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munic­ ipal Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): I met with representatives of the MMF this afternoon and advised them that no decision had been made on funding to date. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister elab­ orate as to the reason that this stage, after interim supply, after the distribution of the printed estimates, that no decision has been made in respect to providing the MMF with the traditional core funding which they've received from the government of Manitoba since 1972. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Munic­ ipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: I have had ongoing meetings with the MMF and as of April 1s t that responsibility comes under my jurisdiction.

Up until March 31, 1980 it was under another department and I have been working regarding the core funding decision but a final decision has not been made to date. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise whether or not there are funds included within the ap­ propriation for his department for the MMF within the printed estimate book that was distributed to members of the House. MR.

GOURLAY: Yes, there are substantial funds in­ cluded in this year's estimates but not necessarily - as I mentioned no decision has been made regarding the core funding but there has been several thousands of dolla rs in the estimates to cover Metis programs. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that there are funds within the estimates for the MMF , can the Minister assure us that the MMF then will receive payment of funds as soon as is possible so that they can continue on with their operations without any un­ due delay since funds are included within the printed estimates toward the use of the MM F. MR.

GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I indi­ cated earlier, that decision hasn't been made yet. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister assure us then that the funds for the MMF are not held up, as was suggested by him apparently to the MMF , due to the fact that his estimates had not been dealt with due to the fact that his estimates were at the tailend of the departments being dealt with during the estimate proc­ ess and that was the reason for any hold up in funding. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is re­ petitive. I have to rule it out of order.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with another question. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't see where the question is repetitive, it's very precise and very specific 2765

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 as to whether or not indeed the suggestion that had been made by the Minister to MMF that the Opposition was responsible for the fact that the funds had not been paid to the MMF . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please. The honourable member care to ask a ques­ tion? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the question that I would ask would be the one that you had suggested was re­ petitive and with all respect to you, Mr.

Speaker, I be­ lieve that the question which we asked the Minister . . . can he assure us that funds are not held up due to any action on the part of the Opposition but are held up only due to action on the part of himself and/or his Cabinet colleagues or omission on the part of himself and/or his Cabinet colleagues. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Op­ position is obviously confused by his informants. The information that I gave to the MMF was the procedure that we use in determining who comes into the House for their estimates and who goes into Room 254.

At no time did I say that the Opposition was responsible for holding up any payments, because I clearly indicated to them that no decision had been reached yet on the core funding. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister then hold­ ing up the payment of the funds until the passage of his estimates? MR. GOURLAY: No, not necess arily. I can't very well pay out any funds·until I know who they are to go to. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I am really attempting to share with the honourable member a discussion as to what the precise problem is.

I understood a few moments ago that the Minister did in fact indicate there were funds that were within his estimates for the MM F. Is the Minister now indicating that indeed those funds that are within his estimates, he knows not to whom they will be paid? MR. GOURLAY: As I indicated at the start, no de­ cision has been made regarding the core funding. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, then in that event, can the Minister advise when a decision will be made and by what body, and why a decision had not been made prior to the printing and distribution of the estimates, including funds for the Metis Federation? MR.

GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I hope a decision can be reached soon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. Would the Minister advise the House whether an investigaton is being conducted into the affairs of the LGO of Alexander. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Mu­ nicipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: I didn't catch the first part of the honourable member's question. Would you mind re­ peating that again, please. I'm sorry. MRS.

WESTBURY: Whether an investigation is being conducted into the affairs of the LGD of Alexander. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I have staff doing some work in that regard and I will hopefully have a report on that soon. MRS. WESTBURY: A second question to the Min­ ister: Is the Council operating at full stren gth; have they a quorum? If not, how is the LGD operating at the present time? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The two remaining Council members have been suspended for the time being.

The Council affairs are being handled by the admin istrator, who is a resident in the com­ munity, in addition to assistance from other Municipal Affairs staff. MRS. WESTBURY: I wonder if the Minister would advise the House whether it is anticipated that any charges will be laid against any formerly-elected offi­ cials of the LGD? MR. GOURLAY: I can't give any indication of that at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Memb er for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My ques­ tion is to the Minister of Northern Affairs.

As the Min­ ister has confirmed that no decision has been made yet in regard to core funding for the Manitoba Metis Federation, and as the Minister has also further con­ firmed that his department is examining different op­ tions as to how to apply or not to apply that funding, I would ask the Minister if he can further confirm now that this method of determining whether different op­ tions will be implemented has been, first, referred to the Manitoba Metis Federation today and that the Min­ ister has been undergoing this process without any consultation in specific regard to core funding with the Manitoba Metis Federation.

MR. GOURLAY: The answer to that question: We have the situation under review. Certain funds have been allo cated, but as I indicated earlier, no decision has been made as to who they will be paid to or how they will be paid. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well now the Minister opens up a different question. I would ask the Minister who else besides the Manitoba Metis Feder­ ation the Minister is considering as a group that might receive this core funding, an amount that equals ap­ proximately 130,8 00, what other groups is the Minister considering in regard to applying such funding to? MR. GOURLAY: Mr.

Speaker, we have been looking at the whole business of funding to the Metis com­ munity. As you realize, a lot of funds have been paid out under many departments and I have been trying to get the total impact of all the funding that has been going out, and we are looking at this situation. As far 2766

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 as with respect to organizations, we have made no decision with respect to that point. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Min­ ister confirm that his department, or other departments within his government, have been over the past numb er of months conducting audits of the funding of the Man­ itoba Metis Federation and that to date the Manitoba Metis Federation has not been informed of any irreg­ ularities or any difficulties in that funding and that therefore there would seem to be no reasons to change a process that has been in effect since 19 72 in regard to core funding. MR.

GOURLAY: Yes, I have been fully aware that there has been some audit investigations taking place. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Ross­ mere asked me a question a little while ago with respect to whether a decision respecting a case involving a breathalizer would be appealed. Mr. Speaker, I can confirm to him my advice at that time that there will be no appeal of that case under the circums tances but, as a matter of practice, the Crown will call rebuttal evidence in future cases where similar facts occur.

In the case in question expert evidence was called, the Crown are of the view that that kind of evidence is subject to dispute, and in the future will be calling re­ buttal evidence. MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Attorney-General: Is it then the position of the At­ torney-General 's Department that had the appropriate evidence been called in that particular case, that a dif­ ferent decision might have been arrived at? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I believe the honour­ able member is asking for a judicial opinion and I would think that that is probably out of order. The Honourable Member for Rossmere care to re- lf phrase his question? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, the time for appeal, I understand, has now expired, and the Attorney-Gen­ eral has indicated that in future cases of a similar na­ ture, those cases will be handled in a somewhat different fashion.

I am just wondering whether, in light of the fact that there would be, I'm sure, tens of cases currently pending of a similar nature, I'm just wondering whether in fact such evidence in this type of case would have changed the outcome. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my advice is that it has come to the attention of the department that in similar situations there is expert advice avai lable to the con­ trary, to that which was tendered in defence in the case in question and in future cases under similar cases that expert evidence will be called. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to the Attorney-General.

Then can the Attorney-General con­ firm that in this particular case the reason there was no appeal was that it was the view of the department that it would have been an appeal on facts as opposed to on law. Is that correct? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the view and advice from the Crown Attorneys involvement with respect to this case is that, in fact, expert evidence was called in to support the defence and there was no advice to the contrary available to the Judge to find in any other manner than he did. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Mini ster of Northern Affairs re­ lating to the previous questions on the MMF . Can the Min ister indicate if his department and/or people that his department have sponsored, have completed their audits of the Manitoba Mtis Federation, and are they convinced that there are no irregularities which would hold up the MMF core funding for this year? MR. SPEAkER: The Honourable Min ister of Northern Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, members from the Department of Northern Affairs did not conduct any audit. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Speaker, can the Min ister in­ dicate if the audits that were completed and conducted on behalf of the Manitoba Government, have been completed and show clearly to the government that there are no irregula rities which would provide any rea­ son for them to hold back MMF core funding? MR. GOURLAY: Weil l think with respect to the ques­ tion of the audit, that should be directed to the Min ister of Finance whose department conducted the audit. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, it's obvious the Min­ ister doesn't want to answer the question; surely knows the answer. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Mini ster if he can indicate if his staff or any member of the Manitoba Government acting on behalf of his depart­ ment, have contacted the federal government to try to influence them in their decisions regarding the funding of the Manitoba Mtis Federation. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, we have not in any way tried to influence the federal government with respect to their funding of MMF . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Education. HON. KEITH COSENS (Gimli): Mr . Speaker, I took as notice a question from the Honourable Member for St.

Vital regarding policy dealing with the disposition of the proceeds from the sale of school properties, school buildings. I can inform him at this time that the policy of the public schools finance board, with regard to the disposition of the proceeds of sale of capital assets is as follows: If the land, building or bus being sold was originally purchased through funds provided under the Foundation Program, the Public Schools Finance Board will require that the proceeds be turned over to the Foundation Fund. However, if the capital asset being sold is being replaced with a similar capital 2767

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 asset, then the Public Schoo ls Finance Board will require that the proceeds be used towards purchase of the replacement asset. Thirdly, Mr. Speaker, if the capital asset being sold is not required for any purpose by the school board and was originally purchased through funds raised by the school board and not by the Foundation Fund, then the Public Scho ols Finance Board will authorize the school board to retain the proceeds for its own purposes. MR. WALDING: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable Minister for that information.

I would like to ask him whether that information has been commun icated to school divisions so that it might assist them in coming to a decision as to whether or not to close a school. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member that I am almost 100 percent sure that all school boards are very much aware of that policy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Op­ position. -(I nterjection)- The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to raise a matter of privilege and I therefore requested my leader to let me do it on the earliest opportunity.

I raise this matter of privilege on behalf of the Member for Rup ertsland who did not hear, whilst he was question­ ing the Minister for Northern Affairs, did not hear at least three occasions when the Member for Minnedosa kept calling out to the Member for Rupertsland, Are you worried about your salary? Mr. Speaker, I challenge the Member for Minnedosa to be accountable for what he says or to withdraw the implication which he made. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

One of the problems we have in this Chamber is that there is a tendency on the part of many members to indulge in conversation when someone else is speaking. I have repeatedly asked members not to indulge in their own private con­ versations when some members are speaking. I sin­ cerely hope that all members of the House will afford a member who is speaking the cou rtesy of the floor, and that includes certain members who, even now, do not wish to afford that opportunity to members who are speaking.

If the member has clearly heard something that tran­ spired, I think that it is a matter that should be cleared up, and I would ask the Member for Minnedosa to either confirm or deny what has been reported to have been words of his origin. MR. DAVID BLAKE (Min nedosa): Mr. Speaker, speaking to the point of privilege, if that is on the record before the Member for St. Johns put it on the record, I have no hesitation about withdrawing it. But it is nice to see the Member for St. Johns is back and we can get back into these types of exchanges in the House.

We had such a pleasant time in Public Accounts this past issue when he wasn't around and we had a gentle­ manly exchange of debate, now that he's back ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I hope the honourable member realizes that it's highly im­ proper to comment on the presence or absence of any particular member of the Chamber. The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, on the matter of privilege, I have no objection whatsoever to the Mem­ ber for Minnedosa or anyone else noting my presence or absence from this Chamber. What I do want to make clear, Mr.

Speaker, is that although the member may hide behind the fact that the microphone is not set in front of him, he still has a voice loud enough to carry across the room and uses it in a manner which is highly disrespectful of this House and of you, Mr. Speaker, and the meetings you conduct. That is the point I am making. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I would hope that every member of the Chamber listens wisely to the words that were issued by the Honourable Member for St. John and I would hope that the tenor of debate in this Chamber is raised substantially as a result. The Honourable Minister of Health. MR.

SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Hon­ ourable Leader of the Opposition asked me for infor­ mation relative to the number of neurosurgeons and beds available at the Health Sciences Centre. 02 is the ward at the Health Sciences Centre that accepts neu­ rosurgery and neurology patients, it comprises a total of 36 beds, the number assigned to neurosurgery or neurology specifically is not designated, Sir, it depends on need, but usually the ward is half neurosu rgery and half neurology.

There are four neurosurgeons at the Health Sciences Centre, two of which never admit, or rarely admit patients, the other two of which do admit patients. There are four neurologists, one of whom rarely admits, the other three of whom do admit patients. Over the past weekend, there were several beds vacant on 02 and as of this morning, Sir, there were two beds empty and awaiting their next patients on 02. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister of Health for his information. Further to the Minister of Northern Affairs: I am sure the Minister of Northern Affairs, Mr.

Speaker, would not like to leave an impres­ sion that he was suggesting that the funds were held back due to irregularities. I am sure that was an in­ advertent statement on his part. Could the Minister in­ deed confirm that there has been no non-payment of funds on his part due to any irregularities on the part of MM F? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I did not indicate that there were any irregularities. As of the 1s t April the responsibility came under my department and we have the situation in review and have not made a decision at this point as to the payment of core funding to the Metis people. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Urban Affairs and/or the Attorney­ General. In view of the apparent conflict of interest in­ volving Councillor Jim Ernst, since the City of Winnipeg Act is a provincial statute does the Minister intend to investigate this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. 2768

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, without receiving a complaint from an individual, that is one of a number of ways in which this matter could be dealt with in the courts, the answer to the question is no. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I have to ask the Minister again whether he does not feel that as Minister re­ sponsible for the statute, namely Minister of Urban Affairs and as the Attorney-General, that he doesn't have sufficient authority to enforce the legislation, with­ out a complaint? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, neither the Department of Municipal Affairs nor the Department of Urban Af­ fairs, to the best of my knowledge, has ever regarded its role as one of a policeman with regard to people holding elected office at the municipal level. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elm­ wood with a final suppl ementary. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, in view of Mayor Norrie's questioning whether the province is serious about im­ plementing stricter conflict of interest legislation, does the Minister feel that the legislation as presently con­ stituted has sufficient teeth in it? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, if what has been alleged to have taken place in this particular matter is true then the legislation clearly covers the situation adequately. I point out, Mr. Speaker, to the Member for Elmwood that the City of Winnipeg Council recommended in early 19 78, I believe it was, that a Municipal Conflict of In­ terest Act be passed applicable to all elected officials.

Because it involved municipal elected officials across the province, I subsequently forwarded their brief they had prepared to the Union of Manitoba Mu nicipalities and to the Association of Urban Mu nicipalities for their consideration and recommendation. I have received no response, so that I, in following this matter up again, wrote to Mayor Norrie on February 29th of this year, Mr.

Speaker, advising him that up until that time the Union of Manitoba Municipalities had indicated that its members would prefer to deal with questions of conflict of interest by by-law, without any changes in the Mu­ nicipal Act, but that the Manitoba Assoc iation of Urban Mu nicipalities had indicated they wanted to study the matter further. I close by indicating that I trust that the city of Winnipeg as a member of the Manitoba Asso­ ciation of Urban Municipalities would contribute fully to the development of their position.

Members of City of Winnipeg Council attend ail conventions and meet­ ings of the Urban Associat ion, and in fact have held positions as President of that Associa tion, and on the executive of that Associat ion, so I indicated in my letter of February 29th of this year, the position up until that point of time and I fully expect that the City of Winnipeg Council in pursuing this matter will bring forth their position to the Urban Association so that a recom­ mendation eventually will be made by that association to the provincial government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elm­ wood with a fourth question.

MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to ask the Min­ ister, in view of Mayor Norrie's comment that he ques­ tioned whether the province had the political will to enforce or enrich that legislation, I ask the Minister whether he has the political will or the interest in strengthen ing that legislation. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated as long ago as a year and a half that we had an interest with respect to this matter.

The City of Winnipeg Council, again I point out, suggested that there be a Municipal Conflict of Interest Act that would be applicable to all elected councillors on that basis at the time, and that is the reason why I sent it out to the other municipal organizations that would be affected by it for their com­ ments.

I am disappointed that the associ ations have seen fit not to respond in the space of the last eighteen months, but I brought this matter to the attention of the Mayor again in February hoping that the City of Winnipeg Council through its membership in the urban association would have this matter dealt with by that associ ation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, my question is the Minister of Labour.

I wonder if the Minister could indicate what further action, if any, he intends to take with ManFor because they have laid off employees at the sawmill division without, what appears to be, ap­ propriate notice in terms of layoff time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat familiar with the situation and I believe that the member was correct when he said, in his opinion, it appeared not to be appropriate time. The facts are, Mr. Speaker, that appropriate notice was given in this unfortunate situation. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs, who un­ fortunately appears to have inherited the confrontation and negative approach of his predecessor in dealing the Manitoba Metis Federation. I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether there will be any cutback in efforts of the Manitoba Metis Federation to improve the lot of Metis people, especially through the avenue of economic development, because of his withholding of their core funding which they have been receiving since 1972. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON.

DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I certainly wouldn't want to leave the impression that I was contributing to cutbacks in eco­ nomic development with respect to the MM F. This is not my intention. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, then I'l l have to ask the Minister, what effect does he expect it to have when he withholds core area funding, that has been granted since 1972, from an organization that is assisting peo­ ple with economic development? What effect does he think it's going to have when he withholds this money? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I indi­ cated earlier, I have the situation under review at the 2769

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 present time, however, a decision has not been made re the funding. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Mi n­ ister of Northern Affairs if one of the organizations he is considering giving this grant to, instead of the Metis Federation or as well as the Metis Federa tion, is the Metis Confederacy? MR. GOUR LAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I've had discussions with a number of organizations, Metis peo­ ple, including the Confederacy and the Metis Women's Assocat ion, the MMF , perhaps there was one other organization - I can't remember - but as I indi cated several times today, a final decision has not been made with respect to any funding at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: My question, Mr. Speaker, is for the Honourable Attorney-General and flows from the questions and responses given to the Member for Elmwood with respect to the question of the enforce­ ment of The City of Winnipeg Act.

Will the Attorney­ General, in his capacity as Chief Law Enforcement Of­ ficer of this province, undertake to communic ate with the city of Winnipeg, and in that regard, Mr. Speaker, will he confirm the breach of the Act pursuant to Sec­ tion 88. 1 of The City of Winnipeg Act, and will he notify the council members of proceedings that can be taken through his office pursuant to

Section 94, Su bsection 2 of the Act, to unseat the member if he refuses to ·voluntarily forfeit his seat? In this regard, Mr . Speaker, I would ask whether, if the Attorney-General is not moved either to make the notice to give effect to the purpose of these actions, and if the honourable council members are unwilling to move themselves, whether he will undertake to entertain the citizen's complaint pursuant to

Section 94.2 of the Act and file forfeiture proceedings on behalf of the Crown against Councillor Ernst? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I'm certainly prepared to give consid eration to those numerous matters that were referred to in that question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wel­ lington with a sixth question. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, either my memory is very poor or your power of observation is diminishing. Mr.

Speaker, through you to the Honourable Attorney-Gen­ eral, in view of that response I presume that he's not willing to be forthcoming in this regard this afternoon and, of course, further questions will come on another area of his responsibility dealing with the upcoming meeting with Mr. Pepin, the Federal Transport Mi nister.

We, on this side, would ask whether or not, if the Hon­ ourable Federal Min ister undertakes a 50 percent com­ mitment pursuant to the Rail Relocation Act with respect to the relocation of the C.P. main lines in Win­ nipeg, whether the province will undertake in the next few days to make up the difference between the federal half and the city's committed one-sixth. In simple terms, Mr. Speaker, will the province be willing to dou­ ble the city's ante of 31 million as expressed by the resolve of City of Winnipeg Council, and offset that with a further 62 million in order to effectuate the relocation of the lines?

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The qu estion is hypothetical. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that it's not hypothetical but I'll rephrase the question. I'm asking, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that there is a nego­ tiation about to commence within the next 24 to 48 hours in Ottawa, whether the Min ister and his govern­ ment are prepared to respond to a federal initiative placing up to 50 percent of the relocation funds towards this project, to meet the city and the federal govern­ ment's commitment of funds on the basis of doubling the ·city 's one-sixth.

Will they provide some 62 million for rail relocation? I would remind the Minister, Mr. Speaker, through you, that the city has already com­ mitted 31 million. Will the province double the city's committed contribution and provide the balance of that funding in order that the rail relocation can be effected pursuant to the provisions of The Hail Relocation Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Urban Affairs. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, if I can, first of all, com­ ment on the

preamble to the previous question with respect to the matter of conflict of interest with the city of Winnipeg. The Member for Wellington has demon­ strated, in fact, by his conclusion that the person in­ volved is guilty of a conflict of interest, the kind of approach to this that I simply cannot take in my position as Attorney-General. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, to the Member for Wellington, it would be improper, very im­ proper, for me to conclude on my own that anyone at City Council was guilty of a conflict of interest situation and subject to the penalties in the Act.

That is a matter that, if it is to be decided upon, will be dealt with in court and, again, I suggest it's improper for me to come to that conclusion because of my position. With respect to the second matter raised by the Mem­ ber for Wellington, Mr. Speaker, as to a hypothetical situation which might come about at a meeting with the federal Minister of Transport with respect to rail relo­ cation.

I am not going to answer that question because as I have indicated on numerous occasions, the pur­ pose of this meeting is to establish the federal govern­ ment's. commitment to rail relocation and what their financial contribution will be. They have delayed the construction of the Sherbrook-McGregor overpass, they have caused that project, if it is to be proceeded with, to be subject to great inflationary pressures, Mr. Speaker; they have withheld means of satisfyi ng trans­ portation problems of the northwest

section of this city, entirely on their own, and I want to see what their spe­ cific financial commitment is to rail relocation before any decision is made by the provincial government as to its participation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. 2no

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to propose a question to the Minister of Health by way of clarifi­ cation to the answer which he provided earlier, per­ taining to the neurosur gery

section at the Health Sciences Centre, his reference that half the beds in ques tion, 18, did in fact have four neurosurgeons, and his reference that several were vacant. Was the Minister referring precisely to the 18 that were part of the neu­ rosurgery portion or rather that those beds that were vacant related to the neurology

section which provided for the other 18 beds in the total section? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure that I can answer that without further checking. I did point out I think to the Honourable Leader and members of the House that there is no specific designation or cate­ gorization of those 36 beds on D2, they are divided up according to need, as between neu ro-surgery and neu­ rology.

I can't tell him whether the several beds, which amounted to about half-a-d ozen that were open over the weekend and the two that were open and empty this morning, would be designated as neurosurgery or neurology, but the figures would indicate that the vol­ ume of demand is being accommodated, whether neu­ rosurgical or neurological on D2. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. The time for question period having expired, we will proceed with Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House re­ solved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Hon­ ourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Health and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT MR.

CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. We are on Res olution 35, 2. - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (PETE) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've been in the other committee for the last two days and I want to get back there as soon as I can, so I'm not sure whether we have discussed in the last two days the points that I wanted to raise with the Minister. If he has, then he can tell me.

One of the things that I wanted to ask the Minister is, that in a num ber of cases consumers are required to put up cash deposits, for instance, renting apartments and so on, and untold thousands of dollars are put up as security deposits. I don't object to the principle of doing that, because there are some people who do not look after the apartments and they're going to leave them in a bad way or do damage to the apartments, and I think it's to the protection of the apartment owner to have some protection in these cases.

But what I am trying to bring to the Minister's attention is that there is untold thousands of dollars that are given to the apartment owners and there is an interest rate of 4 percent, and this is really ridiculous. Because this money, I am sure; is put into banks and held in trust or whatever way it's held and can be drawing interest at 10, 12, 15 percent, and it seems unfair that the in­ terest rates are not more in line with what's happening in today's market. That is one point I want to raise.

Also, it happens in the Manitoba Telephone System, whereby applicants or su bscribers are required to put up deposits, and also it happens in Hydro. Winnipeg Hydro is doing the same thing whereby they are asking deposits of 25, 30, or whatever the case may be; I am not sure what the interest is. But in my own personal case, I just took an apartment here a month ago, and they said, Well, you have to give us a deposit, and I said, What for? Well, we have to have a deposit.

I said, Look, I can give you the best credit rating you want, I can get bank credit rating, I have an account with Manitoba Hydro, I have a home and I have been serviced with Manitoba Hydro for years; why would you want a deposit if I can establish credit rating. Well, we don't want to do that, we don't want to spend time doing that, we want 25.00. The point I am making with the Minister is that there is thousands and thousands of dolla rs that are held by Hydro and by the landowners or the apartment owners.

I don't think it is just right, because if they have to go to the bank and borrow money, they are going to have to pay prime-plus, but they insist on paying - in the case of the apartment owners, it's a ridiculous 4 percent and that's unbel iev­ able. That should be up around the 12, 13 percent, Mr. Chairman, at the present time. It is really not fair to the tenant to have to . . . In some cases this money stays there for years.

If a person puts up half a month's rent when he moves into an apartment and he stays in there for 10 years, he has had that money for 10 years at 4 percent; it's unbelievable that that should take place. Where I am now, Winnipeg Hydro is threatening to cut off the Hydro because I won't pay the 25.00, on the principle of the thing. I have offered to establish a good credit rating and anything they want and they said, We don't want to do that, we want your 25.00. I would like to know, on what licensing or what legislation does the Winnipeg Hydro take deposits from people and pay interest on it.

In other words, they are acting like a bank. They take your money and they hold it for the length of time you are sitting in the apartment, then they are going to pay you a certain amount of interest. They said, Well, we'll pay you bank interest on it, and I'm sure the bank interest, we could get more than the bank interest is today. I wonder if the Minister could comment on that. Maybe I'm going over the same grounds that he went over during the discussions yesterday or the day before. I would sure like to hear what the Minister's views on this are. 2771

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I am happy to in­ form my honourable friend that he is not covering ground that has been covered before; that's a new one. I want to tell him that we are pretty well aware of the situation with respect to the security deposits. The matter has been brought to our attention on a num ber of occasions in the past while, and we are introducing amendments to The Landlord and Tenant Act during the course of the next session. That is one of the mat­ ters that will be taken under consideration.

I happen to agree with the honourable friend that a 4 percent interest rate on a security deposit is a little bit out of line at the present time, considering the present rate of interest. With respect to the deposit required by Winnipeg Hy­ dro, it is Winnipeg Hydro that is asking for the deposit and I believe I am correct in saying that it applies to apartment dwellings that are heated electrically. That is something that we have no control over. It is a matter that my honourable friend will have to raise with Win­ nipeg Hydro.

My understanding also is that they do pay an interest rate on that deposit at the rate of - I believe at the present time it is 12 percent. MR. ADAM: On the latter point, the apartment we are living in is not heated by electricity; it is heated by hot water. The point I am trying to make is, under what authority or what legislation can they act as a banker, because that's what they are doing. They are taking a deposit; they say, We want you to put a deposit here and we'll pay you an interest on it.

They are acting like a banker in that case and they are getting money from thousands of people at less than what they could bor­ row from the bank on, and that's the point I am trying to make. They are getting money a lot cheaper than what they would have to go to the bank and borrow money on. They would have to pay the going rate. The prime rate is 16 1/ 2 percent, or 17 1/ 2 percent. They are getting money at 12 percent from count less people in the province of Manitoba. The principle is not right, because I am trying to establish a credit rating, just on the principle of it.

They said, No, we don't want to do that, it's too much trouble; you put up the money. That's just cheap money that they are getting and I think something should be done about that. MR. JORGENSON: As I indicated, my honourable friend will have to take that up with Winnipeg Hydro, and I presume that he has. I don't think that it is one of those areas in which the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs could exercise any authority or any jurisdiction. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, we do have legislation covering apartments in that case, where there is a se­ curity deposit, but I'm wondering what legislation gives Hydro the authority, or the Manitoba Telephone Sys­ tem, the authority to do that, to compel anybody to do that, if they can establish a proper credit rating. I don't object to, you kno w, the principle that they are doing it, because some people are transients, they come in and take an apartment; they stay a couple of months; they don't pay and they go. I know that. I'm not arguing that point.

The point is, once you have established a good credit rating, they should accept that, but they don't want to do that. That's the point I'm making. So they've got all this money tied up and they are getting it very cheap. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I requested Leg­ islative Counsel last fall to prepare legislation to amend The Landlord and Tenant Act in order to provide for a fairer interest return on deposits. I stopped it when I heard the Throne Speech, which indicated that there would be legislation amending The Landlord and Ten­ ant Act.

Is it fair to ask the Minister - well, I know it is fair to ask the Minister - is that specifically going to be dealt with in the legislation which is being brought this ses sion? MR. JORGENSON: It is one of the matters that is un der consideration and being proposed as an amendment. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, then, it means to me that the Minister is proposing it but has yet to get clearance through what internal, Cabinet and caucus procedures.

So it is in his hands and he has the moral commitment of the Throne Speech to bring it back in, and that's the reason why I withheld bringing in legislation of my own on that specific. Since the Minister has undertaken that amendments to The Landlord and Tenant Act will be brought in, and this is one of the matters being dis­ cussed, then I would assume we will have every op­ portunity to discuss this further. I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chairman, but touch for a minute on the point raised by the Member for Ste. Rose on Winnipeg Hydro.

The Minister said he doesn't think that it is within the oribit - these are my words, not his - of his department to become involved in that. I want to suggest to him that the authority for his department to work is as broad as he, the Minister, wants to make it. His own description is: Provides for administration of consumer legislation such as The Consumer Pro­ tection Act and investigates consumer problems, and mediates complaints between landlord and tenants.

These are his words, but investigates consumers prob­ lems surely includes any unfair or inequitable trans­ actions that can be made, especially un ilateral ones in case of a monopoly, whether the monopoly is a private monopoly or a public monopoly, it's still a matter of concern.

The free market, which I believe the Minister respects so highly, presumably operates when there is an op­ portunity to say yeah or nay, I will deal with this firm or I'll go to another one depending on the terms they offer, but since Winnipeg Hydro is the only firm that sells any kind of electric power within the old city of Winnipeg, then when it makes the decision, it can be arbitrary, it is unilateral, and no one can fight it except with the assistance of government.

I'm wondering if the Minister really believes that it is not within his jurisdic­ tion to attempt to investigate this kind of a complaint and attempt to resolve it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, when my honour­ able friend says that I have the authority to investigate, he's perfectly right, and I will undertake to do just that, with particular reference to whether or not Winnipeg 2772

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 Hydro has applied to Public Utilities Board for approval to levy such a charge. I will have the matter investigated. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I do appreciate the Minister's willingness to investigate it.

I want to suggest to him further that although he wouldn't have the rec­ ords before him, of course, it would be too much to expect, but to suggest that if, as, and when, Hydro did or will apply to the Utility Board for approval, that his role as Consumer Affairs Minister ought to include making sure that there is adequate consideration given before the Utility Board of the consumer interest.

I don't know the extent to which - and I just ask the Minister - the extent to which he believes that his department should be involved in monitoring applications to the Utility Board on the question such as we raised rather than a que stion of rate se tting. Rate sett ing, one can say, is the main job of the Utility Board and therefore can be left to them, although the Utility Board itself, I think, comes under this Minister - does it not?

Yes - but especially on matters that are peripheral to the main application, whether the Minister accepts it as his resp onsibility to monitor and make representat ions if deemed necessary, before the Utility Board itself. MR. JORGENSON: I'm not sure that I would agree that it is my responsibility to make repres entations before the Utilities Board. We certainly, as I indicated earlier, will be looking into the matter and perhaps I can have further information for my honourable friend at a later date. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not entering into debate, but I think when I said, not that it's nec­ essary that he appear before the Utility Board, I think I said monitor what goes on before the board and if deemed advisable, to make represen tations before the Utility Board. I did not think this Minister has to appear there, but I think that in order to represent consumer interest when consumer interest itself is not being rep­ resented before the Utility Board, surely it is is this department which should be presenting a point of view for consideration by the Utility Board. MR.

JORGENSON: I hesitate to give a definitive an­ swer on whether or not it is proper for my department to appear as a proponent before the Public Utilities Board, since it comes under my jurisdiction in the first place. I would have to give that matter some consid­ eration before I would give a definitive reply to it. It seems to me that there is a bit of a conflict there. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I think the conflict may be more in the mind of the Minister than in the role he must play, because the role of the Public Utilities Board could come under any other Minister.

The fact that it happens to have been assigned to this Minister does not make it improper for this Minister's depart­ ment - I would never mean the Minister himself would appear - but I see nothing wrong with a Consumer Affairs Department appearing before the Utility Board, over which it has no authority, to represent the con­ sumer. Because who else would represent the con­ sumer if there is no organized group of consumers that are appearing?

I'm not going to push the matter except to point out to the Minister that I would appreciate his review of my suggestions and to decide whether or not it does not indeed bear reconsideration, or at least consideration, since he has not been definitive. I want to go back to what we were discussing last night in relation to the inspections under Food and Drug. The Minister was saying, just before we adjourned, some­ thing about inspections are going on. My impression is that inspections may be going on but prosecutions are not going on. Is that an incorrect statement at the present time? MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, there is a possi­ bility of prosecutions under The Health Act and under The Combines Investigation . . . I wonder if I might read a memo that has just been given to me on this particular subject. In Ottawa, a Task Force comprised of representatives of the federal departments of Agriculture, Health and Welfare, Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and Fish­ eries, has been established to study and report on the implications of the Su preme Court decision in the case of Regina versus John Labatt Limited.

Presumably the Task Force will recommend such future legislative pro­ posals that may be possible at the federal level to fill any void that is identified in their review. It may be that they will conclude that the void can only be filled by appropriate provincial legislative action. Consumer and Corporate Affairs Canada is continuing in the exami­ nation of meat samples. If, for instance, they find ham­ burger that contains other kinds of meat, charges of fraud and deception will be laid against the offender under The Combines Invest igations Act.

The sampling program is activated via citizen complaints, as well a being an ongoing activity. We are advised that the market monitoring by sampling indicates a continuing high degree of compliance with standards for ham­ burger by Manitoba retailers.

Perhaps my honourable friend would be interested in a further memo that I received in respect to the same su bject, with perhaps a different angle: The Manitoba Regional Health Protection Office of Health and Welfare Canada advises that the recent decision was related to compositional standards and accordingly their programs respecting health and safety are being delivered in the normal manner and no en­ forcement problems relative to health and safety are anticipated.

The recent court decision is considered to relate mainly to federal Corporate and Consumer Af­ fairs, who have the major resp onsibilities for compo­ sitional standards. The health and safety can be addressed separately. The Supreme Court decision is under review by the federal Department of Justice and action as necessary to clarify legislation and respon­ sibilities will no doubt be recommended and under­ taken. The Health Protection Branch has assured us that they will keep us posted on problems or potential problems during this interim period.

With respect to the provincial program, the Environmental Manage­ ment Division is continuing its program del ivery re­ sponsibilities under The Public Health Act. There are no enforcement problems anticipated and the court ruling has not affected our current program. The At­ torney-Gener al's office is currently reviewing the Su­ preme Court decision to determine the effect or potential effect it could have on Manitoba. As this review pro­ gresses, the need to add, amend or clarify provincial legislation will be identified and the necessary action taken. 2773

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I have a reaction to what I have just heard and it's adverse. It is critical for several reasons. I must say firstly that I am not familiar with The Combines Investigation Act. I do not quite understand how that Act plays a role in . MR. JORGENSON: Misleading advertising. MR. CHERNIACK: Oh, the Minister says misleading advertising.

I am under the impression that the charges that were laid against - was it Safeway and I think Dominion Stores, of which I have the press clipping but no longer have it at hand - I had the impression that there are certain standards which are established which say that when hamburger meat is being advertised, it shall contain not more than a certain amount of fat, not more than a certain amount of other ingredients other than meat itself. Or that there is a difference re­ lated to the product, whether it be beef or pork or whatever. I don't think that necessa rily has to be adverse to health.

It may not be misleading advertising if they don't say that We warrant that it is whatever the content should be. I don't accept what appears to me to be a report saying, well, it's being studied and when that study comes to fruition, we will bring legislation, or not bring iri legislation, of a federal or a provincial nature.

The report I read in the newspaper, with which the Minister must be very familiar, and which as I say I mislaid since last night, clarified for me the fact that the Crown Prosecutor said that because of the Su­ preme Court decision, he is not proceeding with those charges but finds it necessary to stay the charges be­ cause the Supreme Court said that these should be provincial legislation. The Minister, this Minister, is re­ ported to have said, It may well be that we will have to pass legislation.

Now, as long as there is a void, and there appears to be a void, then that void can be filled even with a tem­ porary measure. If people are being misled, being im­ properly used as consumers, then indeed there is a sense of urgency and it doesn't take very long and it shouldn't need too many conferences of a national or even international character to come to a conclusion and to proceed - now that's the only point I'm making. Those memos would justify a conclusion that there is no sense of priority that has been established, and the Minister doesn't know because this is a federal com­ mittee that's reviewing it.

Mr. Chairman, we're all ac­ customed to seeing memos of that type which are intended to inform and at the same time soothe, and I don't want to suggest that there is a great crying emergency that people will be poisoned, that people will be, in any way, as seriously adversely affected. But why should we sit around and fiddle around when the Sup reme Court has given an opinion, made a decision? Why can't we proceed with that by regulation, which I believe is all that's necessary?

The Minister knows full well in his experience that regulations are made, reg­ ulations are res cinded, regulations are varied, but at least let not the suppliers to the consumer be under the impression, which I believe is a justified one, that they are immune of certain kinds of prosecutions. I think it is justified, because the Crown prosecutor ac­ tually stayed proceedings. So now they know, in this particular type of prosecution they are immune until government act. So I just urge the Minister that he set a deadline. How about that? Is that fair, Mr. Chairman?

Can we ask the Minister to tell us, that regardless of whether or not he gets an opinion from Ottawa or any other national group, that within one week, two weeks, one month, two months, he will act, because I believe there is nothing to prevent him from acting except his own conservative approach and careful approach. I'm not saying that in a critical way, because calling some­ body conservative is not necessarily an insult, to ask him to set a deadline for himself or his staff, after which time he will proceed to follow the recommendation of the Supr eme Court or the decision of the Court. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, all I can add to what I've already said, that if it appears as though it is necessary for the provincial government to regulate in this area, we will regulate. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - the Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, that's what the Minister is quoted as having said early in March, and all I'm saying is, I believe him, but when, how long?

Why should the public have to wait for the bureaucracy to work things out, because this Minister is not ex­ pected to and certainly will not of himself or nor will any of his colle agues in Cabinet form an opinion and act on their opinion. They will act on the opinion given to them by the bureaucrats, and it needs the Minister to prod them into saying, produce an opinion on which we can act.

Therefore, I did ask the Minister whether he isn't prepared to indicate some sort of a time-frame within which he's going to act regardless of the time it may take for others, such as a national committee, to come up with conclusions. MR. JORGENSON: If I thought, Mr. Chairman, that there was a void that needed to be filled, we would certainly act. I see no urgency, in the light of the fact that the investigations are continuing, either by citizen complaints or as an ongoing activity. If charges have to be laid, they can be laid.

In other words, I don't see the great void that my honourable friend does, and until such time as the matter has been clarified I think it would be precipitant on my part to undertake any ac­ tion until we know precisely what is necessary. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said, If there is a void, and I don't see a void. I don't know where he was on March the 3rd, I think it was, where he's quoted as saying that there seems to be a problem which he will deal with. MR. JORGENSON: I said, We may have to legislate. MR. CHERNIACK: May have to. MR. JORGENSON: That is still a possibility. MR.

CHERNIACK: But, Mr. Chairman ... MR. JORGENSON: Until I find out, I will not know. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I under stand the predicament of the Minister. Not only is he not a lawyer, but if he were a lawyer, he still wouldn't have the an­ swers at his fingertips, and I wouldn't expect him to, and I would expect him to be cautious. I don't believe 2774

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 that one legislation, just in the expectation that you may be right. But, Mr. Chairman, the void he does not see is a void which became apparent to me when I read a newspaper story saying that a Crown prosecutor stayed proceedings on the basis of a Supreme Court decision that a certain legislation was ultra vires of a federal government and was a provincial matter. It seems to me that if a prose cution is stayed, that would indicate that there is a void. Now the Minister doesn't see it, that's unfortunate.

I had hoped that the least we would get from him is an undertaking with a deadline saying that un less I get a positive recommendation within a certain period of time I will act; that I haven't gotten that, then it's because the Minister does not perceive the void which I thought was visible and ap­ parent from the newspaper report. I wish the Minister could just tell us what is wrong with that report and not say, well, the Combines Invest igation Act or health reg­ ulations protect us. Is he saying that there is not a void?

No, he's not, he is saying if there is a void, I will act, that I'm not sure there's a void. Mr. Chairman, it has now been what? - about six weeks since that occa­ sion, maybe longer, and the Minister still doesn't know. It seems to me he ought to know, and I don't fault him, except for not prodding those who should be telling him and making sure that they give him an answer. The fault I suggest is in not making sure that the answers are forthcoming, and I'm sure they should be and could be much more readily if the Minister prodded them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G.

WILSON: I represent an area that has a lot of rooming houses. I've had several letters on this question and I couldn't really give them the answer because I haven't been up to sort of current things. I wonder, in the area of - has there been any change or what is the government's policy of the law pertaining to damage deposits? Is the rooming house operator, the landlady, entitled to a damage deposit, and what percentage? If the rent is 125 a month, can she demand first and last or the amount equal to one month's rent for the damage deposit? MR.

JORGENSON: At the present time the amount is one-half the value of the rent. MR. WILSON: So in the case of 15 0 a month rent, 75 could appear damage deposit. MR. JORGENSON: It would be 75, yes. MR. WILSON: They also are complaining to me that they are dealing with a monopoly.

They say that ten­ ants, sometimes out of vengeance or whatever, will turn on the water and walk away, and unl ess the landlady or landlord is a very prudent manager of their prop­ erties they come back to, not only a damage situation, but a fact that they are the owner of premises, is some­ times stuck for the water bill if the City of Winnipeg Waterworks can't collect that from the tenant.

I wonder, is there any thought to any protection, that it would seem to me, if somebody is doing business with an individual, i.e., a tenant, why is it that - is this across the land or is it a phenomena to Winnipeg or is it similar in other provinces - the landlord or the owner of the property becomes the co-signer, so to speak, of this particular customer of the waterworks? I wondered if I've got my information correct? MR. JORGENSON: I'm not sure whether I under stand the question of my honourable friend.

Is he talking about separate water bills in rooming houses, or is he talking about a tenant turning on the water in a rooming house, for which there is a common water supply. MR. WILSON: No, I am talking about, it has been sugge sted to me, that a particular house is taken over by a family who are tenants; they run up a water bill and leave town and .the owner of the premises then has that water bill added to his tax bill or whatever; or an attempt is made to make the landlord pay for the ten­ ant. I am just wondering what the law in Manitoba is at present. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, I now understand what my honourable friend is saying. This has been a problem over the years and the Landlord and Tenant Act at the present time are carrying on discussions with the city of Winnipeg to determine if there is a possi bility that we can continue to monitor the bills in these var­ ious places to ensure that the water bills are being paid regularly. That way the landlords will be given a better idea of whether or not a tenant is in arrears of his payments on his water bill.

I think it is a mutual ar­ rangement that can be worked out to ensure the lan­ dlords that there are not undue water bills being accu mula ted without his knowledge. MR. WILSON: Just while I've got the floor I'll go into another subject. Under the Food and Drug Investiga­ tion I was asked by a letter from a lady about concern for our, I guess you'd call them our little canine friends.

Some of the large department stores seem to have taken the opportunity of inflation to put pet foods out of sight as far as price concern goes, to the extent where one particular product has jumped from a 1. 09 a box to 1. 63 and this is an increase of over 50 percent and I realize that price controls I guess are something that the federal government deals with. Do they still have the department that monitors rises in food prod­ ucts ... MR. JORGENSON: Food and Price Review Board? No, that has been discontinued.

MR.WILSON: What area would be that if, for in­ stance, we'll take Safeway who has a large warehouse and they ... what I'm suggesting is, if they have 300 cases of a product sitting in a corner and they increase that product by 20 cents overnight, who monitors that. It reminds me of the story of the gas companies when the gas was increasing that somebody made the gas companies give the consume rs back.

I'm just bringing the concern of this constituent who is suggesting that in the area of pet foods there is an un believable war­ ehousing and situation where these things are being - in other words, 20 cents is being added to old stock. What I'm saying is, like the gas companies where would this person go with that concern that they may be get­ ting bilked by these major food chain stores and having the prices increased 20 cents or in the case of tinned pet foods, seven to ten cents overnight from old stock. There's nothing wrong with that? That's not breaking the law? 2ns

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 MR. JORGENSON: No, there is no violation of the law, I would suggest that the customer who finds him­ self in that position his best recourse is to go to the store manager. MR. WILSON: That's fine. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Mr. Chairman, I was just going to deter­ mine from the Minister who is res ponsible in respect to additives and other items that are placed into proc­ essed foods, specifically meats like sausages and other luncheon meats that are processed. They have a num­ ber of fillers as well as a number of other additives.

Are there any standards on who determines those? MR. JORGENSON: Those are determined by the fed­ eral department. MR. FOX: In respect to water content, is that also federal department or is there no standard on that? MR. JORGENSON: I would think that would be in­ cluded as a part of the ... I'm sorry, I misinformed my honourable friend. It's a co-operative effort between the federal government and the provincial government to determine water standards. MR. FOX: Does that include frozen foods too? MR. JORGENSON: Pardon? MR. FOX: Does that include frozen foods as well? MR.

JORGENSON: No, I think it is only water stand­ ards that are a joint responsi bility of the federal and provincial governments. That is the one that comes under both governments. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The reason I am asking this question is because I note that there are many processed foods which can have a large water content and you are paying for water and not paying for the food that is being advertised. Now, that's not neces­ sarily false advertising if there is no standards as to what percentage of water can be added.

For instance, bacons and hams are one of the processed foods that will have a large water content; the other one is also your frozen foods. You will get various kinds of frozen foods but you will also get quite a quantity of ice and I would just like to know from the Minister, if it is a joint effort, what effort is being done to monitor that the customer, the consumer, is not being ripped off by paying for water when he is sup posed to be getting meat or vegetables. MR.

JORGENSON: I am going to have to take that question as notice because I believe that there is further involvement perhaps with the Department of Agricul­ ture. I wonder if I could provide that answer to my honourable friend at a later point. MR. FOX: Yes, if I am not my colleague will probably take it or it will be in Hansard.

But, I believe, that there is a need for greater monitoring in this particular area because with today's processing and then rapid pack­ aging and rapid freezing it is very easily done to include an extra amount of water and the customer then is not getting a true product; he is paying for a lot of water which is a lot cheaper than the vegetables or the hams or bacons which are advertised in the package.

This has become apparent because I have had a number of constituents of mine indicate to me that if the pack­ age sits for a week or so the water then comes out and it is at the bottom of your package and that is how it becomes apparent; and the same thing in respect to frozen foods. Your vegetables and so on when you thaw them out you find out that all of a sudden their bulk is about half of what it was when it was in the frozen state. MR. JORGENSON: Yes, we'll certainly have that looked into. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I had wanted to speak on that issue about the water bills but the Minister clar­ ified that it's a municipal bylaw that governs, and his department department is looking into some of the unfairness in the situation, so I have nothing further to say. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just before we leave this item, I would like to ask the Minister if he could give us an indication of how many complaints the department has received during the past year and how many the department has success­ fully settled, and give us a breakdown of the category of what the disputes and complaints were about.

Also, I would like to ask the Minister, since we got back on to the meat program that we were discussing yes­ terday, the Minister has stated yesterday and has rei­ terated it today that charges could be laid under The Federal Combines and Investigation Act, if there is a continuation of this, pending legislation coming. Is it the intent of his department then to lay charges under The Federal Combines and Invest igation Act because if meat is being sold with contents of other meats that are not sup posed to be in the meat, especially in ham­ burger, then charges could be laid under this sect ion.

Also, he stated that charges could be laid under The Public Health Act and I want to know from him at this time if The Public Health Act that he is referring to is provincial legislation or is it federal legislation.

The inspections that took place last year were - and I think there was quite a bit of newspaper pub licity given to and names of stores given that had high bacterial counts especially, I believe, in ground hamburger - were these investigations and the subsequent naming of stores - I know there was quite a considerable number; I don't have the press clipping with me - were they made by the provincial health authorities or were they made by the federal ones? MR.

JORGENSON: I am advised that the complaints . that were originally made were made by one of the daily newspapers and, as a result of those charges, the fed­ eral authorities did step in and conducted their inves­ tigations and it was on that basis that the federal authorities conducted their investigations in this par­ ticular matter. 2776

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 MR. JENKINS: That was the ones with the high bac­ teria count last year; that was the result of newspaper complaints that the federal Department of Public Health did the investigation and the Minister said that there were subsequent charges laid under The Food and Drug Act. MR. JORGENSON: I am advised that we're not sure who laid the charge but I presume it was the authority of The Food and Drug Act who had the regula tory re­ sponsibility in this particular area at that time. MR. JENKINS: What inspections are made in Man­ itoba under The Public Health Act by the Department of Health?

Do they . . . ? MR. JORGENSON: Largely bacterial content. MR. JENKINS: That's for bacterial content. MR. JORGENSON: I might want to answer that ques­ tion that was asked originally before we lose sight of it with respect to the number of complaints that the department has received and the total number of com­ plaints that has been received by the department last year was 1, 828 and they are broken down into a variety of categories. My honourable friend, if he cares to wait until the report is publi shed, those figures will be avail­ able in the report. MR. JENKINS: That brings me to another question I have.

I'm sorry to interrupt the Minister but just check­ ing the reports that the Minister is required by legis­ lation to table in the House, I see that he has tabled MR. JORGENSON: No, we're not required to table that report but we do. MR. JENKINS: No, no, that's not one of them, but it brings to mind that there are two, I believe, that I have noted that have been tabled and I checked yes­ terday in the Clerk's Office; there is no notice of them as a sessional paper. The Minister may correct me MR. JORGENSON: Only if there is a report. MR.

JENKINS: The Greater Winnipeg Gas Distribu­ tion Act and The Insurance Act; is the Minister antici­ pating that these will be tabled shortly in the House? MR. JORGENSON: Both of those are nil reports so there is no tabling. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Min­ ister stated that he will be tabling a report that he's not compelled to by legislation. MR. JORGENSON: It will be released; the report will be released and I am sure that my honourable friend will want a copy of it. MR.

JENKINS: Yes, and that would be outlining the progress of the department, more or less like other departmental reports, or just what nature is it, if I could just get an idea from the Minister. I'm looking forward to receiving a copy of that when he does . . . MR. JORGENSON: If my honourable friend wishes, I can make an extra copy of this activity summ ary, the table of statistics, and have that available for my hon­ ourable friend if he would like to have it now. MR. JENKINS: Yes, that would be . . . I would ap­ preciate that very much from the Minister.

Last evening, I believe it was last evening or late in the afternoon, there was some discussion with travel agen­ cies and the Minister had stated that he was co-op­ erating closely with the province of Saskatchewan at the present time prior to bringing any legislation in.

What I wanted to ask the Minister is if his department has or is considering making an annou ncement, much in the same lines as what he said yesterday that people should investigate very thoroughly, and I think it should not - because we're operating right now as the buyer beware - and I think that the Minister also stated that in the insulation field or the installation of insulation that the department made available, I don't know whether it was booklets prepared by the Greater Win­ nipeg construction industry, was it, I believe, if the Minister would consider at least warning the public that there is a res ponsibility on their behalf to make sure that they are dealing with very reputable firms, espe­ cially in the travel agency I am not saying that there are disreputable firms out there, but I think that in view of the fact that we have no legislation covering this type of thing at the present time, I think it would be incum­ bent upon the department to make sure that the public is aware that there are chances that if they get them­ selves involved that they can lose a considerable amount of money.

I know that we haven't had that many; we have been very fortunate here in Manitoba. But I think of the case last year where someone who had been saving up for a holiday for quite a consid­ erable time and really had, I guess, their dreams of a holiday just go down the drain. It is unfortunate that if that person would have had the proper information in the first place, and I realize that people have to ... We can pass legislation until doomsday and it's not going to protect people, in many cases, unl ess they want to protect thems elves and I guess that's perhaps the best way.

But if they are not aware of some of the pitfalls that may face them out there in the marketpla ce, then I think since there is no legislation here in Mani­ toba or, from what the Minister says, in western Can­ ada, in the three prairie provinces, I think when the Minister is putting out his bulletins - and I see that he is also the Minister in charge of Information Services - that through the press, he can make these pitfalls that may await the unwary buyer out there aware of what they should be doing to protect themselves. I hope that the Minister would take that seriously under consideration. MR.

JORGENSON: I appr eciate my honourable friend's comments and I can assure him that it's a sug­ gestion that we will consider very seriously. MR. JENKINS: The other question: With the pam­ phlet that the Minister, I think he said he was going to make one available with the installation of . . . MR. JORGENSON: I have it here and there's one here for Mr. Walding about a question that he asked yesterday. 2777

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 MR. JENKINS: That was dealing with installation. Was that for the do-it-your selfer, or was it for those who are having . . . MR. JORGENSON: No, for the general public. MR. JENKINS: For the general public, fine. I have no further questions under this item. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1)- pass; 2.(a)(2)- pass - the Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: I wonder if the Minister could give us a brief breakdown of what Other Expenditur es there are and why there is a fairly substantial increase in this item from last year. MR.

JORGENSON: There is 15 ,000 that is intended to accommodate anticipated increased costs of tele­ phone services, particularly long-distance charges, plus phone services for a new research analyst and consumer communications officer, and anticipated general price increases in most other areas. The other 12 ,000 is a non-recurring funding requirement for re­ vision of audio-visual material and film series concern­ ing The Consumer Protection Act. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(3)-pass - the Member for Bu rrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: To whom are these grants payable? MR. JORGENSON: The Consumers Asso ciation. MR.

HANUSCHAK: That's the only one. MR. JORGENSON: That's the one grant, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)(1)-p ass - the Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you, I hope this is the right sect ion now. Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, on the 31s t of March I asked the Minister a question about his alleged statement to the effect that the gov­ ernment will assist tenants needing assistance outside of those eligible for SAFER, and in reply, the Minister said, I first of all, Mr.

Speaker, tell my honourable friend that I made no such statement, that the press quoted me as having made that statement, and made it in error. I was wondering if the Minister would tell us just what he did say, or did this all come out of thin air. Did he make any statement at that time to the effect that ten­ ants outside of the SAFER Program would be receiving assistance? Does he remember the occasion? MR. JORGENSON: Yes, I do remember the occasion. The question that was asked was whether or not we were going to be phasing out the Rent Stabilization Board and rent controls.

I indicated that it was our intention to follow the procedure that had been laid down in 1978 with respect to the phasing out of the Rent Control Program. The question was then asked what would happen as a consequence of the phasing out of that program. My response was simply that if we felt, if we deemed that it was necessary to help certain groups of people in society who may not be able to meet the rents, then they should be helped by society as a whole, rather than that resp onsibility falling on the shoulders of one group of people, in this case the lan­ dlords.

In other words, if assistance is to be provided to a particular group of people, and I single out as an example - and I hope my honourable does not now use that as a statement of policy; I am just using it as an example - if, as an example, the single parent fam­ ilies, it was deemed necessary to assist them with rents, then they could be included in an expanded SAFER Program. That was the context in which I made the statement and it's one that I have no hesitation in making. I want to emphasize to my honourable friend that any such policy, any such decision is a government one and not mine to make.

It will have to be a Cabinet decision and the matter has not been raised at this poinC MRS. WESTBURY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that if any decision was made by government to expand the SAFER Program to cover all of those who are in the greatest need, of course they could depend on my support.

I further asked the Minister what kind of study was being undertaken to ascertain the level of increases in rent as controls are lifted, and he replied: As my honourable friend may be aware, we have been mon­ itoring rent increases both inside the city, those that have been released from controls, and outside the city, which have been free from controls since October, 1978.

I wonder if the Minister is going to be able to release any figures to the committee or to the House showing us the results of that monitoring that has been taking place, and has there been any increase in appeals to the Rent Stabilization Board. MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I hope I will be in a position to make a release of that nature in due course. I cannot tell my honourable friend just precisely when that will take place, but I hope to be able to have the figures analyzed and make a comprehensive report just as soon as it is possible. MRS. WESTBURY: We will be looking forward to that, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to draw your attention to an ad that was placed in the newspapers by the Manitoba Rent Sta­ bilization Board last year, specifying what increases could be imposed on rents which were remaining under the Rent Restraint Program, and they went between 4 1/ 2 and 5 1/ 2 percent from October, 19 79 to Sep­ tember, 19 80, and some of the rent increases we are hearing about are very much in excess of that now that the restraints are off. There was an indication in November to the effect that the province would consider allowing landlords to dou­ ble security deposits that tenants are now required to pay.

Is the Minister proposing anything further on that? There seem to have been two announcements made at that time, amendments to The Lanlord and Tenant Act, which would allow Cabinet to change . . . No, that's a different one, I'm sorry. The first one was the double security deposits the tenants now pay. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)(2) ... MRS. WESTBURY: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the answer. 2778

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 MR. JORGENSON: I'm not sure that I got the ques tion. MRS. WESTBURY: Is there any intention on the Min­ ister's part or the government's part of allowing lan­ dlords to double the amount of security deposits that tenants must pay? MR. JORGENSON: It is one of the matters that has been brought to our attention. It is under consideration but I am unable at this time to say whether or not it will be included as a part of the amendments. MRS. WESTBURY: The Homeowners Against Rising Mortgages are lobbying for a moratorium on mortgage foreclosures.

Is the government giving any considera­ tion to this matter at the present time? MR. JORGENSON: I'm afraid my honourable friend is going to have to relate that question to her friends in Ottawa, because I believe that they would have the res ponsibility for legislating in this particular area. MRS. WESTBURY: Mortgage foreclosures? MR. JORGENSON: No, not mortgage foreclosures. MRS. WESTBURY: I'm not talking about the mort­ gage interest. MR. JORGENSON: I believe that the Premier made a statement in the House on that particular su bject a few weeks ago and I have nothing further to add on that. MRS.

WESTBURY: I noticed that in Massachusetts tenants have permission to cut down on their rent pay­ ments if their house or apartment loses an essential service such as heat or water. Is there any provision in The Landlord and Tenant Act, or any other legisla­ tion, allowing a tenant that sort of leeway, or is there any intention of the Minister or any department of gov­ ernment to look at this as an alternative available to the tenants of Manitoba? MR.

JORGENSON: Under our legislation, the tenant would normally complain to the Rentalsman and the Rentalsman would have the authority to deal with that particular matter. MRS. WESTBURY: I see, so it doesn't require further legislation, it's already ... Thank you, very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Min­ ister has stated that, as of June 30, the rent controls will disappear here in the city of Winnipeg. I just want to draw to the Minister's attention that in the Tribune of March 7, the Minister of Finance, and I'll read the

article here. It says: The province is monitoring the apartment rental market and may consider an exten­ sion of rent controls which officially end in June, Fi­ nance Minister Don Cr aik said Tuesday. Go od competition in the market promises the best method at this time for keeping rents down but the government is watching to see if current high mortgage rates cause a shift in rental markets, Mr. Craik said in the Legis­ lature in response to ques tioning. That seemed to intimate at that time that the govern­ ment ... MR. JORGENSON: If I may, Mr.

Chairman, I believe that as soon as the Hansard was available after that statement was made and the report appeared in the press. I drew it to the Minister of Finance's attention because I was listening to what he said and I was sure that is not what he said, and as a consequence of read­ ing over the Hansard, he did rise in his place in the House and correct the press statement to the effect that he hadn't made that kind of a comment; he had not really. MR.

JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that correc­ tion, but there is no doubt that when these rent controls come off at the end of June there is going to be quite a rise in the cost of rents here in Manitoba. I have a copy of a letter that was sent here to the Premier - I don't know if the Minister has one. It was from the Manitoba Society of Seniors here in Winni peg ad­ dressed to Mr. Lyon: The members of the Winnipeg division of the Manitoba Society of Seniors are greatly alarmed at the reports appearing in the Winnipeg news­ papers that rent controls on apartments will be lifted next June 30th.

As you are aware, most of these apart­ ments are occupied by retired senior citizens on fixed incomes who will suffer much hardship from these in­ creased rents, and he attaches a copy of a newspaper report that appeared on June 28, 19 78, of the Winnipeg Free Press in which the president of the Manitoba Lan­ dlord Association urged landlords to apply for rent in­ creases which were under the rent controls, two to three times higher than 5 to 6 percent being allo wed by the provincial government. This is an indication of what will happen when and if rent controls are discontinued.

Incidentally, this state­ ment sugge sts that there may be collusion amongst landlords to agree on rent increase which we believe is contrary to The Restraint of Trade Act. This may be a federal legislation but since it concerns rents which are under provincial jurisdiction it would be a matter of concern to you. The landlords claim that there is a high vacancy rate in the apartments. This may be so in the case of high rent apartments which are no longer under rent control and in which senior citizens cannot afford and are above 25 percent of the income category which guidelines suggest should not be exceeded.

Your Minister of Consumer Affairs, Mr. Warner Jor­ genson, stated that competition in the marketplace will be the best control on rents. We question this state­ ment in view of the attitude of the Manitoba landlords as stated in the third paragraph of this letter. The fact that will affect the vacancy rate in apartments is the increase in mortgage interest rates forcing many fam­ ilies to move into apartments. The society feels that the vacancy rates are greatly exaggerated and would be willing to co-operate with the provincial government in conducting a su rvey of apartments to ascertain the true vacancy rate.

You will note from newspaper reports, a copy of which is included, that the province of British Columbia is not only continuing rent controls but is even conducting stricter enforcement of the law. We would appreciate knowing the true intention of the Manitoba government regarding rent control rather than getting the infor­ mation from the newspapers. We would therefore sug­ gest a personal meeting with our Issues Committee 2779

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 before any change is made in The Rent Control Act. As you know, the week of June 15 to 21 has been declared Senior Citizens Week. An early reply to our concerns would be appreciated. I want to ask the Minister, in view of the fact that a request was made from the Society of Seniors, whether the Minister has met with this group or the First Min­ ister, or whether he was aware that this letter had come into the First Minister. MR. JORGENSON: Yes, I do.

The letter has been forwarded on to us by the Premier and we are in the process of forming an analysis of it but there are three points I want to make in connection with the contents of that letter and the statement made by my honourable friend. First of all, I am sure he is aware that senior citizens are ... MR. JENKINS: I'm aware of the SAFER Program. MR. JORGENSON: . . . eligible for the SAFER Pro­ gram.

Secondly, the rent increases, both under The Landlord and Tenant Act and The Rent Stabilization Act, can only occur once in every twelve months and if current leases hold an expiry date up to the end of September no rent increases can take place until that time. So they will not be, as my honourable friend or the letter may suggest, an upward revision of rents come the first of July. The third point that I think we should make is in con­ nection with the mortgage interest rates.

As my hon­ ourable friend is probably aware, rent controls or not, even under the Rent Control Program if mortgage rates increase it is possible for a landlord to include that as a legitimate cost and have it passed through; so they would still be increased to that extent. I note that in other provinces where that has taken place, where in­ creases have taken place, that has been included as a legitimate cost in adjusting rents.

So there are safeguards that are contained within the provisions of The Landlord and Tenant Act and, not withstanding anything that the president of the Lan­ dlords Association may say, he, as well as members of his asso ciation, are bound by provisions of that par­ ticular Act. MR. JENKINS: The Minister, I think, has stated that the best control of rents is the marketplace itself.

What has the department done to ascert ain the vacancy rates that are available in the city of Winnipeg and does he anticipate meeting with this group and take up their offer - the offer was made by the Society of Seniors - that they would be willing to co-operate with the provincial government in conducting a survey, to as­ certain the true vacancy rate. MR. JORGENSON: I have no hesitation to meet with that group or any other particular group, Mr. Chairman. If they want to contact my office and make arrange­ ments for a meeting, I would be happy to do so. MR.

JENKINS: Has the department itself - and who are they getting their figures from; are they getting them from CMHC, are they getting them from the Manitoba Landlords Assoc iation? - has the department itself done a survey of vacancy rates, what their price ranges are? I imagine the higher categories that the vacancy rate would be higher than it will be in the lower cate­ gories but can the Minister tell the committee just where are they getting their figures from.

Are they fig­ ures that have been passed on to them by someone else or have they made any survey of the vacancy rates that exist within the various categories of rents within the province of Manitoba and especially the city of Winnipeg since this is the last place where rent controls will be coming off? MR. JORGENSON: CMHC is the source of informa­ tion that we tend to look to in the main. However, there have been other surveys that have been conducted in various areas and I might say that it's one of those problems that is extremely difficult to pin down accu­ rately.

There are vacancy rates in certain types of ac­ commodation that are higher than others in certain areas and then they go to another area and that will change again so it's a difficult thing to actually pin down with some degree of accuracy; but we rely considerably on Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for the figures that we have. MR. JENKINS: Then I would understand from the Minister's answer that there is no anticipation of the department itself doing a survey at the present time, prior to the expiry of the rent controls, to try and as­ certain what the true vacancy rate is within the city of Winnipeg.

We hear figures bandied around of 5 to 7 percent vacancy rates and that may be true in one area; but as the Minister said, some of these apartment blocks are no longer being mortgaged under CMHC so the vacancy rates for these apartments would not show up in the figures that CMHC releases. Just how does the Minister and his department ascertain a block that is say, 35 to 40 years old. It's no longer perhaps being financed under The Central Mortgage and Hous­ ing Act; maybe financed somewhere else under some other, or it may be a total ly-owned apartment by a landlord.

Just how do we get the vacancy figures that are bandied about in the newspapers. Really the de­ partment here, the Rent Stabilization Board, having to work with someone else's figures because the figures that the Minister has given us or says how they are ascertained are not figures that have been determined by this department; they are figures that have been determined by someone else. Just how accurate are those figures and that is I think the nub of the question that has been asked by the Society for Seniors; that the department itself conduct a survey to find out.

Maybe the Minister will find out, if he did conduct a su rvey, that the figures that have been circulated are quite different and I hope that the Minister and his de­ partment would seriously consider doing a su rvey of rental vacancies in the city of Winnipeg. Also the city of Brandon I guess is another one that's coming off at the same time and other urban areas - I believe that is correct. Is that correct? MR. JORGENSON: There are only two. MR. JENKINS: Winnipeg and Brandon. MR. JORGENSON: Only Winnipeg and Brandon that are under controls right now and have been for some time. 2780

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 MR. JENKINS: I would anticipate that the Minister and his department should be making an effort to find out that if the figures that they are being given by the various groups of people that are supplying this infor­ mation into the department, that they are accurate so that we don't find out two or three months down the road that there is a shortage of apartments in the lower price category for those who are on lower incomes and not able to, with today's high mortgages, they're caught in a hell of a bind.

They can't even move out of the apartments because of the high mortgage interest rates. They are really in a real bind, and I think that the Minister and the department should have been, long before the cutting off, and we all realize that sooner or later rent controls are going to have to come off.

I guess the best way to set the fair rates in the marketpla ce is to make sure that there is sufficient accommodation but if the Minister has to rely on someone else's figures to make the decision - I'm not saying that the Minister made it in isolation by himself, he made it in concert with the other members of the Treasury bench and his caucus - but I think it behooves the Minister and his department to make sure that the figures that they are going to operate on and the premise there is sufficient rental vacancies out there, that they establish with cer­ tainty in their own minds that those figures are accurate and I would ask the Minister to comment.

MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, as my honourable friend I am sure is aware, as a matter of fact I think I indicated in this committee - I am sure it was last night - that we had been monitoring those units that have been decontrolled. As my honourable friend is aware, since October of 1978, there have been pro­ gressively . . . decontrolled from time to time. We have been monitoring those units to determine just what has been happening.

There will be a report compiled and I indicated, I believe it was last night, that I would en­ deavour to make that report available to my honourable friends as soon as it is prepared. I think the report itself will indicate very much the kind of information my hon­ ourable friend is now see king. It is intended to give us some insight as to what we may anticipate when the controls are actually removed and what we must do in order to ensure that there is an orderly return to the free market. I hope that report can be made available at the earliest opportunity. MR.

JENKINS: That really doesn't answer the ques­ tion that I put to the Minister. The question that I put to the Minister was: What criteria did the department itself ascertain on the vacancy rates; the criteria that the decision was made on were figures that were sup­ plied to the department by other agencies, not by the department itself. I welcome the thought that the Min­ ister has thrown out and I gather from his answer that they intend to monitor for some time after the controls come off, to make sure, to ascertain that we don't get a gouging by landlords of the tenants.

The question that I asked the Minister was: Prior to making the decision - I know it was a political deci­ sion, it was one of the things that they annou nced early in their tenure as government, that they were going to get rid of the rent controls. Unfortuna tely, the rent con­ trols came in as the side effect of wage and price con­ trols, and I think the Minister knows what my thoughts were of the wage and price controls. I only suppor ted rent controls because of the fact that we got caught in that kind of a situation in the first place.

Given the fact that these things did come to pass and now people have had some time to operate on this, people have formed, well, various groups of people who are lobbying very actively for the continuation of rent controls. I think before a government makes a decision to get out of this field, that it should have had at its own fingertips, its own figures to ascertain exactly. I know that they have done some monitoring of apart­ ments where the original tenant went out and the new one came in, to monitor that the prices didn't go up.

Well, if I was a landlord, I could say too, I was going to make damn good and sure that the government was going to get out of business. I'm going to make sure that I'm not going to muddy the waters. I'm going to make sure that my rents are stable. But once June 30th comes, un less the Minister is in­ timating that if price gouging takes place, does he then intend to reintroduce rent controls? Supposing the worst of all situations comes about, that we find that people who are in the rental agencies really start sock­ ing it to the tenants.

All the Minister can do at the present time, once the controls disappear, is monitor. We find six months go by and the Minister says, well, they can only do it once a year, but a lot of rental contracts will expire after June 30th. They don't all start on January 1st or prior to June 30th. Many people move in the spring and many people move early in the fall. September 1s t is a great moving day, that's when peo­ ple move from one apartment to the other. So those who will be renewing on the September 1s t deadline will certainly be at the mercy of the landlords.

If gouging takes place and the Minister's department is monitor­ ing, then I put the question to the Minister, what does he intend to do then, to say that the marketplace is looking after these people? The Act, as far as rent con­ trols are concerned, will be gone and will we be faced next year with a piece of legislation to reintroduce rent controls? MR.

JORGENSON: Perhaps I should intervene at this point and remind my honourable friend that perhaps he is unaware of the necessity to continue to have some mechanism whereby there is an orderly phasing-out of the Rent Control Program even after the June 30th deadline, because there is a possibility that a lot of landlords may still be behind in compliance orders and things like that. They will remain until all of those mat­ ters are cleared up. So that becomes then a question of what kind of mech­ anism will be introduced in order to take care of that particular situation.

I can tell my honourable friend now that there will be some amendments to The Landlord and Tenant Act that is intended to deal with that par­ ticular situation. It will be, if you will, for perhaps lack of a better term, a substitute for what currently exists in the Rent Stabilization Board. It will be necessary to carry on certain functions until the program has been phased out completely and it cannot be pha sed out just because June 30 arrives. I leave that thought with my honourable friend and perhaps during the time that those amendments are being considered, he could have further comment on it.

I think that I can't go any further than that, other than to advise him that it is our intention to deal with that particular situation that he seems to have some concern about, and I share that concern. 2781

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 MR. JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that infor­ mation. I realize that the Minister can't tell us what his legislation is, I mean, that's a no-no. We do that in the House; we don't do it here in committee. From what the Minister is saying, then I am getting the picture that what we are going to have is sort of a semi­ control during this phase-out period because, as the Minister has stated, some people will still be partially under the control because of the fact that the lease has not come up.

They are faced with utility costs and other taxation costs and I quite realize that these are fastened costs that they are allowed to have. Will this be the new function of the Rent Stabilization Board, to sit and monitor the new rents and leases that become available. MR. JORGENSON: My honourable friend is just attempting to do precisely what I feared he might do, and that is to provoke a first debate on this subject and then have a second one when the bill is introduced. May I suggest that he wait until the bill is introduced. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Dauphin. MR. JIM GALBRAITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Dauphin area has been taken off rent stabilization for quite some time now and, just for the benefit of the members opposite and the Member for Logan, I would like to make a few comments on rent control. I can say this much, that since rent controls have been done away with in Dauphin, rents certainly haven't kept pace with the rate of inflation. And I'll say another thing, that when rent controls were on, that they seemed to have a tendency to kill the private sector; they didn't want to go into house building, apartment building.

It has been my experience in Dauphin that the supply will re­ main adequate if we don't have any controls. Just to give an example of what's going on in the town of Dau­ phin, a home that would be worth in the neighbourhood of 50,000 at the present time, can be rented for ap­ proximately 300 per month and if you take and figure that out, that's not a very good return for your investment. Just for some concerns of members opposite, when rent controls went off in Dauphin, to my knowledge there were very little, if any, inconveniences created SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR.

CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order. I would direct the hon­ ourable members' attention to Page 59 of the Main Estimates, Department of Health, Res olution No. 76, Clause 2.(

f) Community Health Centres -pa ss - the Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister if he has included in the com­ mitments to the community health centres sufficient funds to enable them to equalize salaries and benefits with those paid to people performing comparable tasks in other health facilities paid for by the Health Services Commission and by Medicare. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERM.AN (Fort Garry): Yes, Mr.

Chairman, there is a nine percent budgetary increase provision in these estimates and that certainly is suf- because rents went up drastically afterwards. They have been very moderate. If they went up too much, all someone had to do was give notice and move. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood, if the Member for Dauphin is finished. The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I have a number of points but I'll just take a couple of shorter ones since we are running out of time.

Was a reque st made already to explain the figures be­ tween 19 80 and 1981 in terms of your change from 428,000 to 15 9,000, and 15 5,000 to 35,000.00. That's simply the phasing out of the whole program? MR. JORGENSON: That's right. MR. DOERN: I wanted to ask the member about a case that has been pending for some time. Is it the Rent Review Board or Rent Stabilization Board - Edison Rentals has had some problems with rent con­ trols and I think the matter has been hung up in the courts, or hung up before the department for the past year and a half.

I wonder if the department isn't showing some laxity in pressing that case. Why hasn't this mat­ ter been brought to a conclusion? MR. JORGENSON: If my honourable friend would rush down to the courts, he could hear the tail part of it because it is being heard today. MR. DOERN: I see, it is being heard today. What was the problem between the initial hearings or initial de­ bate and the fact that it is only in front of the courts now, after all that period of time? MR. JORGENSON: Briefly, it was just a question of getting a court date that was accep table.

It had initially been scheduled to be heard, but because of some tech­ nical non-compliance, it had to be delayed and it wasn't until today that a date could be set. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30, I am leaving the Chair for Private Members' Hour and will return at 8:00 p.m. ficient to meet normal budgetary and salary increase pressures at the health centres. MR. PARASIUK: I would like to differ with the Minister in that regard.

Since the community health centres have started off from a smaller base than established health centres, they in fact have a number of empl oyees who are not being paid comparable salaries and benefits to those paid to people working in hospitals - I refer specifically to pensions.

If the Minister does not feel these institutions should be providing pension pay­ ments for empl oyees at a place like Klinic, then I think he should say so, but he should not get up and leave the impression that these institutions do in fact have sufficient financial resources to provide for the same type of salaries and benefits as those paid to individuals providing comparable services in the established health institutions in Manitoba. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, we don't run the health centres.

As the honourable member knows the boards of the health centres run them, the boards ne­ gotiate with their emplo yees, make the salar y arrange- 2782

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 ments with their emplo yees. If they wind up in a particular budgetary position reflecting difficulty, re­ flecting deficits, those situations and positions are ne­ gotiated with the Health Services Commission, the same as is done in the case of hospitals but there is ample provision in this budget, on the basis of their staffing and their patterns of practice and their oper­ ations, to accommodate that staff and accommodate what reaso nable budgetary and salary increases the community health centres thems elves would deem de­ sirable.

If the boards of the health centres want to go beyond that and make wage contracts or wage settle­ ments with their empl oyees that exceed what is cer­ tainly accommodated in the budget and what is certainly the norm in other health facilities and the rest of the health spect rum, that's their problem.

I presume then if they came to the Health Services Commission with a deficit that could not be justified and that obviously developed from having exceeded the normal wage pa­ rameters, they would be counselled in manners avail­ able to them to get inside their budget which might include the elimination of certain staff positions at the community health centres. That should not be neces­ sary provided they maintain normal budgetary opera­ tions and normal budgetary and salary increases.

Again I remind the honourable member that's a matter be­ tween the boards of the health centres and their staffs and it's not a matter that's negotiated by my department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. SAUL A. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure, perhaps yesterday you might have, but I don't see any note here that I made, has the Minister indicated what the breakdown is on this amount as compared to last year, the health centres and the funding that will be available this year? MR. SHERMAN: No, I don't believe I had, Mr. Chair­ man.

The amount budgeted for the community health centres last year, the print was 1, 268,500.00. To that, Mr. Chairman, should be added 199,5 00; and this year's budget is 1, 579,7 00.00. The Honourable Mem­ ber for Seven Oaks asked me whether that was all spent; as far as I know it was. If we reconciled those budgets, yes, it was all spent. MR. MILLER: Do you have a breakdown? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, I have a breakdown, you mean a centre by centre breakdown? 197 9-80, I'll give you 19 79-80 and 19 80-81 respectively.

Mount Carmel, 41 9,000, 468,300; the Klinic, 182, 100, 222, 400; Health Action Centre, 64, 10 0, 73,800; Churchill Health Centre, 377, 100, 312 , 100; Hamiota, 52,600, 59,200; Lac du Bonnet, 11 0,400, 11 6,8 00; Leaf Rapids, 14 2,3 00, 14 9,900; Seven Regions, 143,200, 15 0,200; and Vita District Health Centre, 23,900, 27,000. These figures, of course, represent the funding for ou treach services, as the honourable member knows, that the Manitoba Health Services Commission funds the medical services at the centres on a fee-for-service basis. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, it was the last statement by the Minister that I'm interested in. I gather from what he says that what has happened in the last year, last year-and-a-half, is that the concept, the idea, that doc- tars might choose to work under an alternative ar­ rangement, than the traditional fee-for-service, has now been altered. The figures read here were the out­ reach program, the various other programs, that these health centres operated but that the medical compo­ nent is dealt with through the Commission on the very traditional fee-for-service basis. Mr.

Chairman, that concerns me; surely the government should have been willing to continue to explore the new ways of delivering a service, rather than the traditional fee-for-service concept. If there are doctors who are prepared to work on a sessional basis or an annual fee or on a monthly salary or what have you, surely they should be en­ couraged rather than discouraged, because that's what's happening now. So that in places like these var­ ious clinics where doctors were prepared to sign on and work as part of a team at a salary or at a sessional rate, now that cannot be done.

They have to, therefore, operate in a very traditional way on a procedure-pro­ cedure basis. I think it limits the effectiveness of the clinic; I think it limits us in trying to break away from the very traditional pattern that has been going on for decades; and I think it's obvious that if we're going to change the entire health system delivery structure that we have to move towards making it possible.

I'm not saying it has to be done by an edict or a law or putting everyone on a salary, but surely we have to be en­ couraging medical people who are interested in work­ ing in a different milieu and un der different circumstances to provide their services as part of a team where they can. Their highly skilled and expert services are simply provided to a health clinic without the need or the desire or the necessity of using the traditional production line, piece-work basis, which is typical of our fee-for-service basis now.

Now everything is on a piece-work basis; the doctor does some thing, he takes somebody's high blood pressure and that's a procedure. There's an initial contact, the initial visit, any prescribing, any examinations, all that is paid for through the Health Services Commission. It's acknowl­ edged everywhere that we have to try to move away from that very limiting kind of del ivery and yet here in Manitoba, this Mini ster and this government seem to be so locked in to going back, really, to a far more traditional system, to the point where the Kellogg Foun­ dation offered to come into Manitoba and they are in.

I say thanks to the Manitoba Health Organization rather than to the Minister, who I think was quoted in the press as saying that this government is not in favour of al­ tering the traditional concept of the delivery of health, and that the idea of having district health systems or community health systems is not the direction that this government wants to go. I think it is a very narrow point of view. I think it is going to lock us into the old system for too long a time.

I think generally there is movement across the continent, certainly in other parts of Canada where there is an urging to depart from the traditional fee-for-service and move to experimenting and trying new ones. Without that kind of experimentation, with­ out that kind of analysis of what the results might be, then I think we play into the hands of those who simply want to continue as we have for the last couple of dec­ ades, even longer.

Certainly, with the introduction of Medicare, there is a possibility to change the system itself to make it more responsive, to util ize the expertise of a doctor in a dif­ ferent way than is being util ized now, and to move from a curative system to one of a preventative system, to 2783

Tuesday, 22 April, 1980 one of treating the individual not just because he is medically ill but because he may have other problems which lead to medical illness. I think it is very narrow and it is not going to, I feel in my opinion, help the health system in any way, but it does, I can see now, the split in the department, which is another step again towards more traditional del ivery and this insistence that anything a doctor does in the health centre has to be through filing for or claiming from the Health Service Commission, the pos sibility of working on the basis of salary is obviated.

I am wondering whether the Minister is intent to carry on this way or whether he is prepared to say, well, if a doctor is prepared to work in a health centre on other than fee-for-service, I want to know why is the Minister so intent on refusing him that right. I know that there are certain elements within the MMA which I think agree heartily with the Minister, but I don't think the MMA should determine policies tor the province of Manitoba and therefore I would like to hear from the Minister why he is intent on rolling the clock back and preventing new and innovative ideas from coming into being? MR.

SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks raises a good point and I want to modify the statement that I have made because the statement that I made, I took directly from my House book and in fact it does not represent the total or even the precise situation with respect to medical services relative to Commun ity Health Centres. I want to apol­ ogize to the committee for that comment. I think it is in error and I am going to have it checked out. We have not altered the funding policy on Commun ity Health Centres where medical services are concerned.

All those that fall into the Type 3 category of Community Health Centres are, with perhaps one or two individual categorical exceptions, centres that employ doctors on salary. The medical costs of that centre are paid for by the Manitoba Health Services Commission in a form that provides for the funding of the medical services, including the doctor's salary. Now there are some in­ stances where some doctors come in and work in some of those health centres on their own time. Some of them work in those health centres from time to time and probably don't charge any thing.

Others come in and work from time to time and probably charge for the procedure or procedures that they perform. But in the main, the medical services provided in Type 3 Health Centres, are provided through salaried posi­ tions. In Type 1, which I know the honourable member is familiar with, the health centre does not have a doctor on salary, so fee-for-service is paid in those instances. The point he makes is correct and the statement that I made, by itself is incorrect. The funding policy on medical services has not been changed and for the most part represents payments to physicians on salary. MR.

MILLER: I am pleased to get that clarification and correction. I recognize that it is possible to make mistakes in trying to follow one's House book and I'm pleased that in fact there hasn't been a change in pol­ icy. In other words, the government is still prepared to go along with health centres or community clinics where a doctor is prepared to and is willing to work on a salaried basis or on a sessional basis, and they are not forcing a change from that policy.

I am ple ased to hear that and I am hopeful that this kind of delivery will spread and that the government will not hinder that spread, that more and more, and certainly in the United States this is happening, the recognition that the medical doctor is simply one person in the delivery of health and that the expertise of the paraprofessionals, the nurse, nurse practitioner and the technicians, that they be used fully so that the doctor can really spend most of his or her time on the things which that doctor is highly trained to do and those procedu res which re­ quire less specialization and less of the highly-skilled or the high training that is required, can be done by paraprofessionals quite adequately.

In doing that, the probability is that people will get better service, that the doctor will not be as harassed and not be under the pressure and can really concentrate on doing his thing in a much easier way, with less pressure and without having to feel that everything is dependent only upon him. Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to hear this statement by the Minister. I hope that there will not be any change, and I gather from what he says that we can certainly depend that there is not to be any change this year, that they will continue to fund the Type 3, that he refers to, in whatever