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September 4, 1997

36th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L224 - Thu 4 Sep 1997 / Jeu 4 Sep 1997

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE

CONDITIONAL SENTENCING

TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE

CONDITIONAL SENTENCING

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

SMALL BUSINESS

PUBLIC HEALTH

SESQUICENTENNIAL OF BROOKLIN

SCHOOL TEACHERS

GIOVANNI CABOTO

DURHAM BOARD OF EDUCATION

PRIVATIZATION OF PUBLIC SERVICES

DIANA, PRINCESS OF WALES

UNITED WAY CAMPAIGN

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE OMBUDSMAN

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

ORAL QUESTIONS

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

YOUNG OFFENDERS

FIRE IN HAMILTON

ONTARIO HYDRO

EDUCATION REFORM

PROVINCIAL PARKS

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGING

PUBLIC HEALTH

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

FIRE IN HAMILTON

CHARITABLE GAMING

TOURISM INDUSTRY

PETITIONS

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

COURT DECISION

GASOLINE PRICES

COURT DECISION

STANDING ORDERS REFORM

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

COURT DECISION

CHARITABLE GAMING

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The House met at 1002.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE

Mr Bruce Smith (Middlesex): I move that in the opinion of this House, as the government of Ontario has moved to realign provincial-municipal responsibilities, including transportation services, under Who Does What, the Ontario Ministry of Transportation should prepare a plan to support the development and implementation of an infrastructure strategy by investigating reinvestment options for bridge and structure development and replacement in this province.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Marilyn Churley): The member has 10 minutes to open the debate.

Mr Smith: It's a pleasure to have the opportunity to present this resolution and speak to the resolution this morning, and I look forward to the comments of all my colleagues in the House this morning.

In essence, the resolution calls for the preparation and development of a provincial infrastructure strategy that deals with, in particular, bridge and structure replacement in this province. I think it's important over the next 10 minutes to provide a brief context with respect to why I've brought this resolution forward and the potential we have if we're successful in moving it forward in this House.

Without any doubt the highway system in Ontario plays a great role in terms of economic benefit. A well-maintained highway system is crucial to Ontario's economic wellbeing and competitiveness, certainly the busiest parts of the Ontario road system in terms of competition with other major states and jurisdictions. The

section of Highway 401 near the 400 essentially competes with parts of the Santa Monica Freeway in California, which represents one of the busiest sections of highway in North America.

It's one of the most rapidly growing areas of interest as highway traffic growth reaches 3% to 4% per year. About 90% of all intercity passenger travel takes place by automobiles on highways. This obviously has a significant economic impact whereby nearly 65% of all Ontario exports by value travel to the US by truck through our transportation system. We've come to expect the transportation system not only to represent and acknowledge the importance of the economy in this province, but the wellbeing in the context that Ontarians have come to know, and want to ensure and see in terms of a safe travelling public and a well-maintained travelling surface.

As well, the context provides a provincial focus as we've gone through the Who Does What exercise, which I think is an extremely important exercise as we look to the exchange of responsibilities and areas of concentration as the province continues to prioritize its services and identify those services which benefit the province as a whole. There's a provincial focus and context that needs to remain very strong as we look to this issue. We've gone through an exercise that essentially sees the movement of some local transportation services to local control.

To provide a little bit more context in terms of ministry investment, total construction in the highway budget for 1997-98 is approximately $562 million, which in fact is higher than any other previous year except for 1996-97 which will see a record year at $628 million. On the issue at hand that I'm speaking of in terms of bridges and structures, capital expenditures on bridges alone and rehabilitation will reach approximately $51 million in 1997-98, which is up from approximately $34 million in 1996-97.

This is certainly a positive indicator of the government and the ministry recognizing the need and the benefit from maintaining a well-structured and well-maintained infrastructure, and at the same time there's a need to remain cognizant of the auditor's report and assessment that there still is opportunity for the ministry to continue its investment options in the highway system and bridge structures in this province to ensure the economic wellbeing I spoke of earlier.

This provides the context from which I'm bringing this discussion. I think the resolution itself, if successful this morning, will seek to secure a longer-term commitment to infrastructure redevelopment and investment. From my general observation, infrastructure reinvestment generally is met very positively in most communities as a much-needed thing.

From a maintenance perspective, it's been very evident throughout the course of the summer and into the spring that road construction is continuing. I know from time to time members in this House express that it's not continuing at the rate they would like, but none the less it's very evident as you travel across this province that there's a great deal of construction and rehabilitation taking place.

As well, we must realize that investment in rehabilitation in surfacing and bridges is an important investment, and timely reinvestments can result in longer-term significant savings by avoiding high returns on costly and premature reconstruction activities. The ministry is undertaking, at least from my research, every effort to examine different life-cycle models of highway construction and maintenance, and through the investment opportunities I've identified, I believe those reinvestment strategies are being realized.

If, for example, you used a life-cycle model to examine the typical lane of highway in this province, we would find that rehabilitating the typical lane kilometre of Ontario highway is about $410,000 per lane kilometre over 50 years. There's an interest that needs to be addressed here, and one that is very important.

Albeit I don't wish to be extremely political, I think there's an opportunity to move ahead into the future with respect to this resolution. There has been concern that over the past 10 years the expenditures weren't sufficient enough, depending on the priorities of the government of the day, for us to maintain the system that we would anticipate through those time models.

I think there's opportunity to move to address the need for investment in bridge and structures, and bridges themselves are a very critical component of this. Bridges built since 1980 typically have a lifespan of some 72 years, and annual costs anticipated to avoid further deterioration, including bridges and lane construction, of some 3,200 provincial highway bridges is about $94 million. There's a need, in my opinion, to look at timely rehabilitation opportunities so we can maximize on some of these investments we've already spent a great deal of money on.

The call of the resolution is to ensure that the ministry remains mindful of the need to develop a strategy that renews our infrastructure and protects the investments we've made to date. It's an opportunity to look ahead. It's a longer-term policy direction that I think is important, a resolution that's complementary to the work that the ministry has done to date and I believe envisions into the future. It's a resolution that essentially serves to recognize the benchmark we're at now in terms of the transition of services, a resolution that will take us beyond that benchmark into a more futuristic field of view.

The focus on reinvestment and the need for funds in safety and rehabilitation goes unquestioned in this House. On a regular basis we hear of the interests that members have in terms of ensuring that our infrastructure is in place, that the constituents they're representing are satisfied that the safety measures and standard of travelling services in this province meet their expectation.

I think the strategy also continues to emphasize greater effectiveness, assessments of how the provincial highway program is run, and obviously I would hope that any savings realized through the reduction of overheads incurred or realized in the highway traffic program are reinvested back into the highway system.

What do we want to achieve at the end of this? This is an opportunity to continue to identify and prioritize provincial interests, no matter which ministry it is, but particularly, with respect to this resolution, the Ministry of Transportation. It provides us an opportunity to continue to work with stakeholder groups such as the Ontario Good Roads Association, which, from my own experience, historically has had a very positive working relationship with the Ministry of Transportation in terms of exchanging ideas and expertise with respect to road construction and rehabilitation in the province.

The Association of Ontario Road Superintendents, who happen to have their headquarters located in my riding, recognize the need for us to maintain and remain focused on and committed to bridge and structure redevelopment in the province.

In conclusion, it's an opportunity through this resolution to build for the future, an opportunity to build on the ministry's efforts to date, an opportunity to strengthen Ontario's infrastructure. It's in that context that I'm asking for the members' support in passing this resolution this morning.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): I see that my friend from St Catharines is just arriving. Unfortunately, he's 10 seconds too late. He never gets an opportunity to speak in here, so we should give him our condolences.

I want to rise to support the resolution. It's rather like supporting the sunrise in the eastern sky. It doesn't really admit to any opposition. Really, we're asking the Ministry of Transportation to prepare studies. Well, now, that certainly would not come as a big surprise to anybody who pays taxes in Ontario.

I think the member rightly observes that the roads and bridge and structure development are important, critical, quite frankly, to a good transportation network. I fantasize, as someone who comes from the hardwood hills and pine valleys of eastern Ontario, what it must be like to represent an area like west Middlesex, Edenic in its agricultural appeal.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): What does "Edenic" mean?

Mr Conway: Edenlike, as in garden of. I think of an electoral district where you have got some of the best, flattest, most fertile farm land, to which the Ontario government built the Henderson highway, otherwise known as Highway 402. I guess if you started with that and you were next door to Lambton, you would feel that you were highly advantaged by God.

Now, if you come from Renfrew and you've got thousands of acres of rugged pre-Cambrian rock, with very low population densities, which would be understandable given that terrain, you'd say to yourself, "Boy, if I were in Caradoc township or Mount Brydges or perhaps even over in St Thomas, I might just feel a little more encouraged by what these studies might reveal."

I want to be clear. I support the resolution. I don't think any thinking person could not support something quite this antiseptic. I want to say as well that the sponsor, as some of these revolutionaries do -- I'm glad to see the former finance minister here, from Nickel Belt -- these current government revolutionaries are wont to tell you that there was just nothing but an excess of spending in the last 10 years. It was just terrible. We spent too much money all the time on everything. But then when they get to individual line-item issues, there was never enough money spent.

In his wonderful southwestern Ontario manner of understatement, the previous speaker allowed as to how, "I don't want to be political, you know, but of course there could be made a good case that this resolution and the important studies that are going to be generated with its passage speaks to an underinvestment in the period from 1985 to 1995."

I will excuse that as a bit of sophomoric enthusiasm, but the reality is, you can't suck and blow all the time.

Interjection.

Mr Conway: I say to my good friend from Etobicoke, who has the most -- actually, I don't want to get distracted.

Mr Tom Froese (St Catharines-Brock): Take the high road.

Mr Conway: Tom, you're right: take the high road. There are a couple of trolls in here who would distract you ever and always to the low road, and I'll try to avoid them.

My point is that in a county like Renfrew, we've just been told that we're going to get 256 kilometres of provincial highway downloaded on to our backs. In the region of eastern Ontario, we've just been told we're going to get fully 50% of the provincial highway grid transferred down to us. The tax base, particularly in rural, small-town, eastern Ontario, is not what it is in Halton and in Lambton and certainly in Middlesex.

Why is that? There are lots of good reasons. One of the reasons is that the single biggest landowner is the provincial government. That's why. When you own 50% of the land base and pay precious few taxes, it does affect your financial situation.

I don't want to continue to beat an old horse here, but we're getting in the region of 50% of the provincial highway system downloaded to us. We're not getting one cent, apparently, of the $2.5 billion worth of provincial fuel and gas taxes. We're not getting any of that, but we're getting half of the provincial highway system.

Mr Ted Chudleigh (Halton North): Do you remember your remarks last night?

Mr Conway: I remember them well. But I'm just telling my friend from north Halton that we're getting 50% of the provincial highway system in eastern Ontario and in Renfrew county we're going to get 256 kilometres. The point I want to make is that we're going to get, under your initial plan, the bridge over the Madawaska River on Highway 62, or what has been Highway 62, at Combermere. We're going to get the bridge over the Madawaska River in the town of Arnprior. Those are multimillion-dollar structures that are going to be downloaded to local government.

Those are just two; there are several more that I could enumerate. There is little or no tax base to support that kind of multimillion-dollar bridge and structure renewal that the member for Middlesex quite rightly observes is an extremely important part of our transportation network.

Can you imagine in a county like Renfrew, with 95,000 people, with 3,000-some-odd square miles, nearly half of which is crown land, getting a mittful of bridges like that and the local taxpayers, whether they be in the hamlet of Combermere, the town of Arnprior, the city of Pembroke, the township of Hagarty and Richards, are supposed to pay for that? The answer is clearly, they can't, and the member for Lambton will know that. We would crush these local governments in my part of the province -- and I see the member from north Simcoe is here.

Some of this has got to be equally applicable to places like Oro township and Tiny township. I can't imagine that the financial capacity of some of those rural townships in north Simcoe is going to be sufficient to shoulder some of these burdens. I may be wrong, but I can tell you, in Renfrew it certainly will not be.

If, as and when that bridge over the Madawaska River at Arnprior has to be rebuilt, that is going to be a very substantial capital investment. My guess is, while it hasn't been announced, that one of the aspects of the Who Does What policy is going to be a capital fund provided by whatever government is in place here at Queen's Park to support particularly rural townships, counties and northern districts with those kinds of obligations, because they simply cannot be shouldered by local property taxes, I say, speaking from my part of eastern Ontario, and I would add to that counties like Haliburton, north Lanark, Lennox and Addington and a good bit of Hastings. There is just no way.

I support the resolution. I say that there are some opportunities, no question about it. Previous generations of MLAs have cut their teeth here and come back here after elections promising to build. Harry is not here. Too bad my friend Danford is not here, because I will personally write his political legacy, and it will be that Harry Danford finally built the new bridge over the Moira River at Tweed, and if for no other reason, he should be re-elected.

But I want to be there in Tweed when Harry comes back to talk about the cost to the county of Hastings paying now for the full operational requirements of Highway 37. Harry may be sorry that he ever built the bridge over the Moira River, because when Harry was lobbying, he was fully expecting that the Ontario government would be maintaining Highway 37, as it should, in terms of our provincial highway system.

I have said enough, and I am happy to yield the floor.

Mr Bill Vankoughnet (Frontenac-Addington): Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I was listening with great interest to my colleague to the north, but I think it's only appropriate that he mention the member for Hastings-Peterborough rather than his name.

Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt): I say right off the top that I almost have to support this resolution because the member for Renfrew North indicated that all thinking people would be supporting this resolution. He puts me in a bit of a corner here, even if I didn't want to support it.

I do, of course, support the resolution, although when I first read it, I scratched my head, wondering where the member for Middlesex was coming from and what he really wanted to get out of this resolution. At first, I think I read too much into it, because I thought it was some kind of attempt to have a reinvestment strategy in which somebody else would pay for it. I had in my mind a picture of a road and then a bridge, the road being a public road and then suddenly you get to a bridge and there's a light and a toll to cross the bridge on that highway. Then I thought, no, he can't be doing that, because Premier Harris promised no user fees would be imposed by his government.

But I don't disagree with the argument that there needs to be a reinvestment strategy for our bridges, indeed our highways, in the province. I can recall about five years ago being in New York City and seeing bridges closed, simply closed and no access to them, because they were unsafe. They hadn't fixed them up. Can you imagine the cost of that to the economic system in a place like New York City, where traffic is already bad enough? Then you start closing bridges and of course it makes it even worse.

I did find it a bit strange that the member for Middlesex would be critical of the previous two governments for not spending enough money on bridges and roads. I can recall day after day in this Legislature his colleagues, Mr Harris leading the gang, demanding that we not spend so much money, that we were spending way too much.

Mr Peter L. Preston (Brant-Haldimand): On the wrong things.

Mr Laughren: On the wrong things, of course. Oh, of course. You only wanted it spent where you wanted it spent, on your particular projects. I see. Well, that isn't what Mr Harris said.

Mr Conway: I always liked Mike's line about North Bay. He wanted to get his share of your waste.

Mr Laughren: That's right. He wanted part of the waste for North Bay, on his terms.

I can recall keeping track at my desk on that side when members of the Tory party would stand up and demand something for their ridings. I would write it down. I would write down the date, the member and what it was they had asked for, and every now and again when the current Premier was in one of his unseemly rants in this place, I would remind him of what some of his colleagues were demanding from the system. Of course he shrugged that off and went on, as he appropriately did, I guess, to form a massive majority government in this province.

But I simply say I worry about what happens in communities, as the member for Renfrew North said, when this downloading occurs, because I represent a constituency not totally unlike that of the member for Renfrew North, which is very rural, very isolated. My constituency runs almost 400 miles north and south and almost 100 miles east and west, and you can drive 100 miles without seeing any population whatsoever.

Mr Preston: Moose.

Mr Laughren: You could see a few moose, yes.

Lots of reinvestment needs to go on there. I can recall, in the dying days of our government, making a pledge, along with the Minister of Northern Development and the Minister of Transportation, to build a road between Highway 144, which goes up from Sudbury to Timmins, across to a community called Sultan, about 40 miles south of Chapleau, which is a community of about 3,000 souls. We had set the money aside in the budget. That road was going to be built. It cuts off roughly 100 miles of road between Sudbury and Chapleau, which is the centre for a lot of what goes on in Chapleau.

One of the first things the government did when they came into office was cancel that project. I don't know whether they cancelled it because the previous government had made the announcement or because they didn't have any members up in that area and didn't care or whether they felt that their money would be better spent in southern Ontario. I guess it's the latter. So I don't need any lectures from members of this government, even if they are mild-mannered and polite, as the member for Middlesex is.

I don't need a lecture from him or any other Tory about lack of investment in our roads and bridges in this province, because what this government has done for Highway 69, for example, which runs north between Barrie and Sudbury, is disgraceful. The two previous governments had set out a program four-laning so many miles a year because that whole transportation corridor desperately needs a four-lane link. I know, as someone who has driven that highway for many, many years.

Mr Frank Sheehan (Lincoln): Travel the rest of the highways. They are a disgrace but we are improving them big time.

Mr Laughren: I'm being heckled from the Tory rump. As a matter of fact, from the very centre of the Tory rump.

When I think of how the Tory government has ground to a halt -- they're going through some public relations activities on the four-laning with announcements and environmental studies and so forth, but basically the four-laning of that highway has ground to a halt, and that's an important link. I don't want to put too fine a spin on it, but would anyone deny that the four-laning of Highway 401 across southern Ontario has been a massive economic stimulus to the province? It has been huge. I believe the day will come when that will be done between southern Ontario and northern Ontario, and that's important.

Just this summer I drove from Sudbury to Saskatoon. I can tell you that the link of the Trans-Canada between Thunder Bay and the Manitoba border is in need of a lot of reinvestment, as the member for Kenora would tell you as well. I must say the Kenora bypass is wonderful, but you don't see Kenora -- and I'm not saying that's why it's wonderful.

Mr Conway: Leo Bernier and Lorne Henderson did more in government than you and I could ever think of doing.

Mr Laughren: That's correct, because that is a true bypass around Kenora, which was desperately needed. I can recall trying to get through Kenora at the wrong time of day and it was a task indeed.

I would say to members that I believe there is still a lot to be done with improving the transportation corridors in this province, and reinvestment strategy should be part of that. I've always believed that the federal government should be taking a role in helping us fund the Trans-Canada Highway. I believe we should have a four-lane Trans-Canada Highway right across this province, indeed across this land, because I think it's terribly important. I appreciate the fact that driving and building highways on the Prairies is a lot different than building a highway in northern Ontario. It's just two different worlds.

But at the same time, I believe that if we're going to be a country that wants to attract tourism and people driving across this land, then I think we need to put investment into our highway system.

All it would take -- and I can remember floating this with people from other provinces in the last five or seven years -- would be dedicating one or two cents per litre from the gasoline, existing taxes if you like, to a fund which the federal government would control and then four-lane the rest of the Trans-Canada Highway. For those parts that are already four lanes, fine, you don't use the dedicated tax for that province. In Saskatchewan, most of the Trans-Canada is four-lane and there are already plans under way to do more of it there.

I will simply conclude by saying I will support the member for Middlesex in his resolution because I believe there needs to be an investment strategy to protect and reinvest in our bridges and in our entire highway system. I wish him well as he tries to convince the bureaucrats and the minister that this is indeed the correct path.

The Acting Speaker: Further debate?

Mr Froese: I appreciate the opportunity to be able to speak to the resolution presented by my colleague the member for Middlesex. We became friends --

Mr Conway: Is it prepared text?

Mr Froese: It is prepared text, you're absolutely right, member from Renfrew.

We became friends shortly after we were both elected to this House and took office in June 1995 and were appointed together as parliamentary assistants to the Minister of Education and Training. During all this time I've gotten to know the member very well, and without a doubt he is certainly a visionary in his thinking and, when dealing with issues, thinks matters through very thoroughly. He is able to look at matters objectively, at both sides of the issue, and come up with creative, fair and logical solutions.

This resolution is an example of that type of visionary and fair thinking, thinking that came out of his own experience in his former life, before he got here, as the chief planner for the city of London. In short, when it comes to planning, he certainly knows what he's talking about.

My understanding of his resolution is that it consists of recommendations for the post-Who Does What Ontario. The province would be in a position to develop an implementation strategy for bridge and structure development that could be used as a model for municipalities. This plan or model would be geared to those highways within provincial jurisdiction, such as the Queen E or the 400-series highways.

The Ontario government receives about $3 billion a year from provincial gasoline and fuel taxes and driver and vehicle registration fees. These revenues flow into the consolidated revenue fund from which all government programs are financed. Governments both past and present spend a great deal of revenue on Ontario roads. However, the present government has spent and budgeted an unprecedented amount of money towards our transportation infrastructure programs and services. For example, in 1987, the provincial government at that time spent approximately $283 million on highway capital construction projects.

In 1992, the provincial government spent $460 million on the same type of projects. However, when you compare it to when our government took office, we spent $629 million in 1996, and $562 million will be spent by the end of this year.

There are those who suggest, and the member for Nickel Belt had suggested as well, that all or part of revenues received from motorists should be spent on roads. In my opinion, that wouldn't be a very good plan because there are many indirect expenditures that occur related to our highways and bridges. For example, there is policing, emergency response, health care and court system expenses that must be paid.

There are also transportation-related operating and capital costs for both the Ministry of Transportation and the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines, such as road safety and seniors' licensing programs. I know about these programs at first hand because I've used an MTO consultant on a number of occasions to speak to seniors at my community seniors' seminars.

There is also a role for the federal government in planning an infrastructure strategy for bridge and structure development and replacement. They too can become leaders in this planning process. For example, the federal government collects about $2 billion a year from Ontario motorists through gasoline and fuel tax and related GST but returns very little to Ontario for reinvestment. The only examples of federal funding reinvestment are the 1987 to 1999 strategic highway improvement programs, which allocate only about $60 million over that period of time, as well as the 1995 agreement for $42.3 million for the Highway 416 construction.

The federal government also contributes to the Canada-Ontario infrastructure program extension for 1997 to 1999. The dollar amount is $24.5 million towards provincial highways. But clearly that's a very small investment considering how much Ontario contributes in taxes.

The bottom line is that the member for Middlesex has put forward a resolution that recognizes the province as a leader in developing and planning for the future of Ontario roads. He suggests a forward-thinking, multi-year plan which, used by the province for the highways left within its jurisdiction following the Who Does What initiative, can be a model for all Ontario municipalities. I commend the member for his vision and insight.

Mr Bradley: I'm absolutely delighted the member is able to put forward such a resolution because unfortunately the government muzzled him on something in which he has a good deal of expertise, and that is the Planning Act. I was looking forward to his comments during the consideration of the Planning Act, because as my friend from St Catharines-Brock mentioned, he has some considerable expertise in the field of planning. I was happy to see that we have this opportunity where the muzzle can be taken off a member and he can put forward, I think, a positive resolution, because I'll be certainly supporting that resolution.

What we have to consider is that the provincial government has given a present to the municipalities. It's not as though they haven't given the municipalities anything. They said: "Guess what? We've got a present for you. We've got all these roads and you can have jurisdiction over them. Oh and by the way, you can have the bill to maintain those roads and to improve those roads as well."

That is going to be a very significant onus on municipalities, particularly when we see that some of the roads are not really what you would classify as municipal roads. Once again we have something in the municipal mix which will be competing for the very limited dollars municipalities will have with all the downloading that is taking place from the provincial government.

Several new areas of responsibility are being forced on to municipalities, much to the embarrassment of many of the Conservatives who sit on municipal councils and who have to defend this downloading, week after week, and apologize for Mike Harris, rather than standing up for their own municipality. Right across Ontario, that's going to be embarrassing. This I hope will engender some new funds which will be able to assist in infrastructure.

One of the differences between many places in the United States and Canada is the infrastructure, one thing we can be proud of. When you travel into the United States, you notice that the general infrastructure isn't always as well-kept in their municipalities as it is here. I think that now we're seeing the opposite. We're seeing here a deterioration of the infrastructure. One of the things that attracts business to a particular municipality is that infrastructure. It's very visual, it's very tangible, it's often concrete. I think it's important to maintain that infrastructure.

Unfortunately, as I say, with all of the downloading, with the responsibility for social housing, there is a tremendous bill, hundreds of millions of dollars; with new health care obligations while hospitals are being closed by this government despite the Premier's solemn promise that, "Certainly, Robert, I can guarantee you it's not my plan to close hospitals" -- that's what he said to Robert Fisher during the leaders' debate -- they're putting further health obligations on municipalities that are experiencing the closing of hospitals in some cases.

What we're seeing now is the very unfortunate circumstance of the local political representatives having to either cut services further, when they've already made deep cuts to the services in their municipalities, or raise taxes or raise user fees, which of course place a greater onus on the people who are least able to pay.

An example I use in that regard, because all the infrastructure money has to compete with the money for social services, is I look at a situation, Canada's national sport of hockey, along with lacrosse; the two are considered to be our national sports. Every time the fees for the rental of the arena are raised by municipalities desperate for funds, then the registration fees are raised for the young people who want to play. That's no problem for the wealthy people. They can afford those fees, but unfortunately, those who come from families with a very modest income are unable to experience this.

The reason I raise that with the member is that I believe we need a strong infrastructure. I believe the provincial government, with the resources it has, should be in a better position to assist municipalities to maintain that infrastructure, because those municipalities are going to be hard-pressed, with all the downloading of new obligations and financial responsibilities from this government so it can meet its commitment on its own tax cut, and they're going to have a tough time dealing with this matter.

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): It's a pleasure for me as well to stand in my place and support a resolution of this kind brought forward by the member for Middlesex. It's quite clear he's very much concerned, as are a lot of people right across Ontario, that as you dump and download the responsibility for provincial highways on to the municipalities, the maintenance programs are not going to be maintained.

I can give you an example in my riding of the bridge going through Mattice. The NDP government had budgeted for this bridge to be rebuilt and repaired in 1995. When the Conservative government was elected in June 1995 they cancelled the money for that. They cancelled it again for 1996. Now, in 1997, they're going to go ahead and repair it because they know this is the only route going from east to west through northern Ontario. That's the only way you can get through there. There are no other bridges. If this bridge was allowed to deteriorate any more -- the NDP government had recognized that and it put a

schedule in place to do it.

There are a number of other cancellations that took place over the last couple of years that are really a concern to the municipalities in my riding. When we were in government we had budgeted for passing lanes and we installed them between Kapuskasing and Hearst. They were also budgeted for between Smooth Rock Falls and Fauquier. The paving program that was scheduled for 1995 was cancelled there. It was cancelled in 1996. Now they've repaved the road but they cancelled the passing lanes that were needed between Smooth Rock Falls and Fauquier.

There are all kinds of examples of cancellation and downloading and not spending the proper dollars that are needed to maintain the infrastructure system right across this province, whether it be in southern Ontario or whether it be in northern Ontario.

A few dollars are now being spent but at the same time they're cutting back on education, they're cutting back on health care, they're closing hospitals, they're cutting back on the amount of money that's transferred to municipalities, at the same time dumping the responsibility for what used to be provincial roads and provincial bridges on to the municipalities.

There's a real concern out there as to how property taxpayers in northern Ontario -- because we don't have the huge numbers of people living in northern Ontario that there are in southern Ontario. If you raise property taxes a very small amount you get more dollars than you do if you raise taxes in a community like Smooth Rock Falls, with a small population, or in Kapuskasing or in Hearst or in Mattice or some of these small communities.

They are already being hit hard because now, on January 1, they're going to have to start paying for OPP policing. The Conservative government that was in office for 42 years, up until 1985 when they were removed from office, said that municipalities with less than 5,000 population would not have to pay for policing. As a result, the municipalities did not budget money in their budgets for this. Now, all of a sudden, they're going to have to come up with between $500 and $700 per household just to make sure the communities are kept safe by paying for the OPP services.

It's a real slap in the face for a lot of the municipalities that don't know what to expect. We're getting into an election coming up in November.

When we refer to this resolution, it's quite obvious that the Conservative members who are not in the cabinet are quite concerned there could be a deterioration of the infrastructure system, when Mike Harris is only concerned about giving a $5-billion tax break to the wealthiest people in this province and could neglect the infrastructure system, as he is doing with health care, education and some of the other services that are just being palmed off on to the municipalities and no plan in place for how these services are going to be delivered and how the mayors and reeves are going to make up the money to pay for these services.

It is a real concern up there in northern Ontario.

Mr Marcel Beaubien (Lambton): It is a pleasure for me to stand in this House today to speak on the resolution of my colleague from Middlesex.

I keep hearing that this government is going too fast and too far. When it comes to roads, I don't think this government can go too far and too fast, especially when I hear the complaints on the other side of the House. I think, as my colleague from Middlesex pointed out, a well-maintained highway system is crucial for maintaining Ontario's economic competitiveness and social objectives.

I know it's difficult to follow my polished colleagues from Renfrew North and Nickel Belt, because they are wise and seasoned. However, I agree with the member for Nickel Belt when he mentions that all levels of government have a role to play in maintaining a sound mode of transportation, or as he pointed out, a transportation corridor. I think municipal governments play a role, provincial governments play a role and certainly the federal government has to play a role.

When I talk about a transportation corridor in my area of southwestern Ontario, Highway 402 is very important, especially because we have an initiative in Sarnia-Lambton that we call the NAFTA superhighway whereby we would like to link the economic activities from Mexico, the USA and Canada into one great transportation link. Not only will it benefit the economic activity of southwestern Ontario, but I am sure it would benefit the economic activity of the member for Nickel Belt and the member for Renfrew North.

I'm sure the member for Renfrew North is as concerned about the road conditions in Barry's Bay and Killaloe as I am with the road conditions in southwestern Ontario. However, when it comes to spending money upgrading of the road infrastructure in Ontario, I think this government has done a tremendous job, especially in the past two years. It is becoming a pleasure to leave Toronto and drive to my riding on newly upgraded roads. This year, this government will spend in total $945 million on provincial highway construction.

I think that is commendable, and we have to keep encouraging the Minister of Transportation, along with the staff in the ministry, to continue spending money on the upgrading.

While we are talking about the economic activity of the road transportation in Ontario, I know the member for Nickel Belt mentioned a toll road. We have a toll road at the end of Highway 402 in southwestern Ontario, the Blue Water Bridge, which was recently twinned. The economic activity that will be realized from the twinning of this bridge is tremendous, and I think we have to cross political borders when it comes to maintaining a sound highway superstructure in Ontario. Without the sound infrastructure in the highway structure, I am sure all the economic activity in Ontario will be impacted upon.

Yes, I am proud to be from southwestern Ontario. As I pointed out, we are the gateway not only to Ontario but to a large amount of economic activity in Canada. There's a lot of economic activity that crosses the Blue Water Bridge. Some upgrading has to be done on the present Highway 402. However, the Minister of Transpiration was in the area in the past month and he has assured us that the gateway to Ontario and Canada will be upgraded.

In closing, I would like to continue encouraging the member for Middlesex to pressure the ministry to continue to spend money on the infrastructure in Ontario.

Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls): There are a lot of things I'd like to talk about, but I only have about a minute and I will give some time to the parliamentary assistant. The member for Cochrane North talked about a lot of cancellations and rescheduling of projects and promises the previous government had made for new bridges and passing lanes and so on. When we came into office there were hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of promises on the books, and at the same time the Provincial Auditor had issued a report saying that 60% of our existing highways were in terrible shape.

We could not possibly keep all the promises the previous government had made, or we would continue to run $11-billion deficits. At the same time, we had to reprioritize the spending to upgrade those highways that the Provincial Auditor said were such a mess. We have done that, as the previous member said, all over the province, including in the St Catharines-Niagara area, where the highways are much better.

We are improving ramps, I know, in my area. We are looking for creative solutions, creative ways to finance. Our caucus transportation committee has pushed for, and now we have in place, highway landscape advertising which will help in beautification. I think the MTO has been very creative, very entrepreneurial. I will support this resolution because it encourages us to continue on those paths.

Mr John Hastings (Etobicoke-Rexdale): I'd like to reiterate briefly some of the points that were raised in this resolution and to compliment the member for Middlesex for raising the strategic significance of putting good dollar bills back into infrastructure. I think the key here is that we have done so within a context of fiscal restraint, and that is not easy to do today. We came to government facing a huge debt and deficit, yet at the same time we have raised sufficient moneys for highway infrastructure, bridges and tunnels over the last two years.

To be specific, we have increased the amount of expenditure, within a fiscal restraint context, on bridges from $34 million up to $51 million. The member for Cochrane North is dead wrong when he says, "Oh, nothing is happening." In fact, a great deal is happening, because we have started with the principle that an infrastructure of highways that is adequately built and well maintained is key to our economic competitiveness, and we are doing that across the whole province, not only in northern Ontario but in southwestern Ontario, in eastern Ontario. I was just there the other day and saw a major piece of highway from Maynooth down to Madoc being completed.

The key to getting more money into the whole system is the role the federal government needs to take on.

This province and its taxpayers pay a tremendous amount of money into the gasoline tax, yet when we look back at all the efforts of Minister Palladini -- and we are going to concentrate more and more in this area, in the area of trying to get the federal government to commit itself to more than $24.5 million under the Canada-Ontario infrastructure program and place it into the strategic national highways plan that we require for this whole country when we are trying to reduce interprovincial trade barriers and make this economy a smooth, seamless economic system for the benefit of all taxpayers.

That's why I'd like to compliment the member for Middlesex for bringing this to our attention. We will direct even more effort to it than we have in the past.

The Acting Speaker: Further debate? Seeing none, Mr Smith, you have two minutes to wrap up.

Mr Smith: My thanks to all the members who spoke in support of the resolution this morning. I would just say at the outset that the resolution is not about securing a portion of the waste, as we heard referenced here earlier. I know it is typical to reflect on some historical comments that have been made, and perhaps I fell prey to that this morning as well. But it is more about looking to the future and developing a strategy that recognizes the importance of infrastructure development in this province.

The member for Nickel Belt raised a very important point. I don't want to misdirect what the intent of his comment was, but I believe he himself was recognizing the need for strategy and the opportunities to link that to national investment and strategies in our infrastructure. The member for Lambton and the parliamentary assistant alluded to that same issue and the need to address that particular opportunity.

As I said at the outset, bridge rehabilitation and infrastructure development in this province are critical to our economic wellbeing. They are certainly critical to the safety factors that many Ontarians believe, and rightfully so, they should enjoy as the travelling public, and they serve us very well in terms of the strength of our economy in the longer term.

I think as well we need to recognize -- and it's not just myself; it's the auditor's observation -- that the opportunity does exist to reinvest more money in highways and infrastructure on an ongoing basis to ensure that the longer-term costs of reinvestment are not excessive.

I would say in conclusion, again, my thanks to all the members who spoke to this resolution this morning. I very much appreciate their comments.

CONDITIONAL SENTENCING

Mr Peter L. Preston (Brant-Haldimand): I move that, in the opinion of this House, since the federal government increased the threat to community safety through the introduction of conditional sentencing in September 1996, which has been referred to as "judge-ordered parole," and which allows criminal offenders to serve their sentences at large in the community and not incarcerated in a correctional facility, the federal government should be urged to recognize the increasing concerns expressed by the people of Ontario for their public safety; and

Recognizing the concerns of the public for their safety and the ensuing compromise of public confidence in the justice system, the federal government should revoke these provisions allowing convicted offenders to remain in Ontario communities while serving their sentences; and

Where the federal government refuses to revoke these provisions, they should at the very minimum agree to limit the use of conditional sentencing provisions to minor property offences;

Therefore, the government of Ontario should urge the federal government to act on the concerns of the Ontario public in order to ensure our communities are properly protected and to ensure public safety is not compromised.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Marilyn Churley): Mr Preston has moved ballot item number 94. Mr Preston, you have 10 minutes.

Mr Preston: On September 3 of last year, Mr Allan Rock, the former federal Minister of Justice in the Liberal government, introduced a new provision to the Criminal Code of Canada permitting the use of conditional sentencing by our courts.

I'm not against conditional sentencing. I believe it will mitigate the overcrowding of our jails. I believe there are some cases in which it's proper.

I'll quote from a Toronto Sun editorial of March 25, 1997, page 10: "Parliament is sending a clear message that the courts are to be more imaginative in structuring sentences that are less restrictive of liberty of the person sentenced. We are instructed to canvass all available sanctions other than imprisonment where they are reasonable in the circumstances." I think this is germane: "reasonable in the circumstances."

The reason for my resolution is to draw attention to where judges have been flagrant in their disregard of the essence of this bill: minor offences, first offences. I have some examples later that will show there has been a complete disregard.

Essentially, conditional sentencing allows a convicted criminal to serve his sentence in his own home or in the home of another, with prescribed times of being in the home, only to be allowed to go to work and for medical and public service. It's a good solution for first-time minor offences, and this is important to remember. With this provision, the judge has what is called "judge-ordered parole." The Liberals did this while at the same time getting tough on crime, or at least talking about it.

Since the introduction a year ago, some very high-profile cases have become test cases for the new provision. I'm sorry to say that our justice system is failing in these tests, and consequently failing the victims of crime.

A woman was convicted of manslaughter in the shooting death of a common-law husband. I believe she was being abused, but there are times when a woman has to call the police. We do not take another's life. She got a conditional sentence: two years less a day, not one day in jail for the taking of a life and being convicted of manslaughter. Is that minor? It may be a first offence but it certainly is not minor.

Our government introduced a Victims' Bill of Rights in this Legislature because we recognized that the justice system was in need of reform. The balance between the rights of criminals and the victims' need for justice has been tipped heavily in favour of the criminals. A sentence must be a deterrent. An old quote: "Justice not only should be done but must be seen to be done." Our system has forgotten the public, especially those who have been victimized by crime. They demand and indeed deserve retribution.

This is part and parcel of the penalty stage of any crime. We have left the idea that the punishment fit the crime: armed robbery, $250,000 in a faked robbery, rape, loss of trust.

In the case of the $250,000 faked robbery, there was a conditional sentence of 15 months. In most cases of sentencing there is what is called a PDR, or pre-disposition report. The pre-disposition report is a home look-up, a look-up on the person's character. Nobody found out that this gentleman lived in the States, so he was confined to his home for 15 months. He immediately crossed the border and went to his home, where we have absolutely no jurisdiction. There is something lacking.

The judge didn't read the PDR, the PDR wasn't put together, or the PDR was put together improperly, because if you do a look-up on a person and can't determine that he has dual citizenship and that he's going to the States to serve his sentence, there is something lacking.

Again, I'm in favour of conditional sentencing, but it has to be done under certain circumstances and they must be minor crimes, first offences.

A violation of a victim's rights should in turn lead to a revoking of at least some of the criminal's rights. Being sentenced to go home for 15 months and watch TV is not going to do anything for the victim's rights. Traditionally it has meant loss of liberty and incarceration, and I believe it should continue for people who have serious crimes and are repeat offenders. I don't believe it should be done in the case of first-time minor offences.

The people in my riding of Brant-Haldimand and indeed citizens across Ontario demand safe communities. They want to know that criminals are off our streets and unable to further endanger our children and the elderly. They want to know that those who are found guilty of serious crimes are put in jail.

A trucker is convicted of drunk driving. His next conviction is for drunk driving causing a fatality. While he's awaiting sentencing, he gets convicted of drunk driving again. He gets a conditional sentence. A continuous offender; a conditional sentence.

I'm asking that the judiciary use some common sense in the sentencing of conditional sentences. They must be for minor offences. They cannot be for repeat offences. We must show that there is a deterrent to crime, continuous crime. We must show that justice is done. I therefore ask the members to look upon this resolution with favour.

Ms Annamarie Castrilli (Downsview): I welcome this opportunity to discuss the resolution that has been put forward by the member for Brant-Haldimand. It may interest members of the House to know that it marks the second attempt by Conservatives to shift the blame for what's happening in the justice system to the federal government through a private member's resolution. The first time it occurred was when the member for Dufferin-Peel made a resolution on

section 754 of the Criminal Code with regard to the faint hope clause.

One has to ask, why are they spending energy on matters which are outside their jurisdiction? One really has to ask, why not look at the justice system as it exists in Ontario, at the chaos that has been created in Ontario by this government and why not introduce a resolution or, better still, a private member's bill to fix the problems you've created? That really should be the question today, not to deal with arguments that have little to do with this Legislature and which shift away the attention from the very real problems.

Of course it's convenient to use rhetorical camouflage and to point fingers at somebody else, but the record here in Ontario speaks for itself. I would like to have seen something a little more in keeping with what the solutions must be for a province such as Ontario.

We all agree on one thing. All three parties surely want the security of the individual in Ontario. I cannot imagine any one of us who does not believe that is a priority, that our citizens have a right to live freely and safely in their homes, on their streets, in their businesses. On that we are agreed. I guess what we need to look at is precisely how we can further that goal, how we can make that a reality for people here in Ontario.

Many members of the government caucus, as many of us will remember, including the member for Scarborough West, favour the broken-window approach to crime, which suggests that small crime problems should be dealt with quickly before they evolve into larger ones. That's a laudable goal, a very good goal, may I say to the member for Scarborough West. In fact, the members for London South and Durham Centre and Scarborough West were appointed by the Premier to go to New York to investigate the broken-window approach's results at first hand. There had been some dramatic turnaround in New York and it was something that perhaps we might have learned from.

Well, a May 22, 1997,

article in the London Free Press quotes Metro Toronto Police Chief David Boothby as saying that the broken-window approach would require 1,000 more police officers. In other words, it would require more resources. Guess what? The broken-window approach does not seem to be the goal any longer. The Conservatives loudly proclaim their zeal in defending law and order and then proceed to slash the very funding which makes this possible. There is a persistent lack of planning and forethought about where the justice system should go and how to get there. Instead, what we have is a government that staggers from crisis to crisis, and the facts are clear.

If you look at the specifics, the first thing is that the Tories have slashed about $116 million from the budget of the Attorney General in this last year alone. In the East Mall court, one of many courts in Ontario, there are 14,000 cases backlogged. The Ministry of the Solicitor General has been cut by $16 million since the Tories took power. We currently have approximately 400 crown attorneys in this province who are responsible for dealing with 250,000 cases.

We have come perilously close, time after time, to having dangerous offenders thrown out on the street because we do not have the resources to prosecute them, not the crown attorneys, not the courts. That's a very dangerous situation.

I have stood in this House time after time to talk about alleged rapists, alleged thieves, people accused of assaults of the worst kind, having their cases thrown out of court because we did not have the resources to process them and their cases simply stayed in the system too long. That's a very serious situation. The Attorney General has stood up time after time announcing yet another blitz, but the blitzes don't seem to do very much good. What you really need is a commitment to justice every day of the year, not just once in a while when the situation grows to critical proportions.

Look at the family support plan. Look at the disasters you created there, where husbands and fathers are paying into the plan and that money is not getting out to children, creating chaos in those people's lives. Never have we had governments that have been so quick to act without planning. It's been acknowledged by anyone who has looked at the plan that it was done too hastily, that it was done without planning. For heaven's sake, you set up a system and didn't even tender the computers for it until some four or five months after you closed the regional offices. That's the kind of disaster we see in the justice system every day.

Legal aid is another area where tremendous difficulty has been created for people who legitimately need the assistance of legal aid to go to court. Remember, justice is not just for the rich, justice is for everyone, and not everyone can afford big bucks and big lawyers.

A study of the legal aid by Osgoode Hall law professors Frederick Zemans and Patrick Monaghan points out that the system is totally out of control. I'd just quote from that report, if I may: "Even though the province is spending over $175 million on legal aid in the current fiscal year, there are too many Ontarians who deserve and are entitled to legal assistance who are not receiving it." Those who are not receiving it are the ones who can least afford not to have that assistance. They're the ones who can least afford to look after themselves.

We've also seen, in the current year, unprecedented action by the chief justices of this province who through letters and comments have indicated what a mess the justice system is in. Justices Dubin, McMurtry and Linden wrote to the Attorney General in January 1996 and used the word "chaotic" to describe the potential implication of this government's cuts. They wrote again and they commented again this year to indicate that the situation is not any better; in fact, the situation is much worse.

One has to wonder, given the contradiction between the get-tough approach of this government and the slashing of resources to back up this philosophy, how this government is going to cope with the extra prison population that would inevitably result from the passage of this resolution.

I just want to make one other comment on the member's statements with respect to victims' legislation as one of the wonderful things they've done. Again we can agree in this House, I hope, that it is important to respect the rights of victims, and I think the general thrust of legislation that furthers the rights of victims is all well and good. In fact, you may recall that my very first act in this Legislature was to bring in a private member's bill on just that, on victims' rights. The subsequent bill that was proposed by the government and passed watered down the rights for victims.

That legislation is not mandatory; it's at best permissive. There's no real requirement to involve victims at every stage, but there's a suggestion that the system should certainly do that.

You've put in some 1-800 numbers for victims, but that in itself is not enough. People need to be involved in the system and people need to have the confidence that this government every day of the year is committed to a justice system for all Ontarians. No one here wants to give criminals additional rights. No one here, I think, would condone a system that would allow criminals to walk free.

My point is that there are so many things here in Ontario that require fixing -- from victims' rights, from the backlog in the courts, from legal aid, family support -- that require the urgent attention of this government, why are we focusing on conditional sentencing, which is outside the sphere or jurisdiction of this House?

I hear the member for Brant-Haldimand and his frustration about some of the apparent injustices of the conditional sentencing. They're frustrations that I imagine would be felt by many people, because the conditional sentencing provisions of the act are not intended for violent offenders; they're intended for the less serious crimes. They're intended for crimes where, if a sentence were to be imposed, it would be for two years less a day. If you look back at the history of that particular section, it's not new; it goes back to at least the 1960s.

It was intended to rehabilitate as quickly as possible people who were not violent offenders and to eliminate some of the high incarceration rates in the federal system.

There are statutory requirements which must be satisfied before a court can apply such a sentence. I'm a little disturbed to hear that there is this prevalent view that somehow this type of sentencing would be applied to the most serious offences. In fact, that is not the case. If that is happening, I suggest there is some other way to deal with it, that perhaps one ought to look at some other avenues to deal with that.

But certainly it is for lesser offences. It is intended to make the system work better. It is intended to eliminate the exposure of people who have committed very light crimes, in comparison to the larger prison population, from being exposed to the hardened life of a criminal in our prisons and therefore perpetuating a system and introducing them to a harder life of crime. Surely that's not what we want.

We don't want individuals who may have made their first mistake, young people who may have made an error, to suddenly be exposed to hardened criminals and be introduced to a much more critical life which would be much more injurious to society as a whole than dealing with it in the first instance -- the broken-window approach that the member for Scarborough West is so fond of.

My concern is that your government has created a vicious circle, that we're not dealing with the real problems. When you cut junior kindergarten, you are doing much more than just cutting junior kindergarten. For every dollar you spend in junior kindergarten there are $7 you save in social services and prison costs. For every child who goes hungry because they're not getting money from the family support plan, that again is a cost to society. For every individual who doesn't get the rehabilitation they need, that exacerbates the problem.

For every individual who is sent to what is now the dismal failure of boot camps, there are going to be additional costs to society. It's a spiralling scenario you've created. What you should be doing, quite frankly, is looking at the very serious issues that affect real people and dealing with those, and not tilting at windmills, trying to blame someone else.

I know this resolution is grounded in good faith. I hope that in good faith you will also look at the problems you have created and try and deal with them responsibly, remembering always that the function of government is to provide for equality and the freedom and security of the individual.

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): I'm pleased to have an opportunity to speak to the resolution brought forward by Mr Preston today. I must say I'm delighted to hear him protesting that he is supportive of conditional sentencing, because that certainly isn't what the resolution says. The resolution says in the first instance that if we pass this resolution, this House will be asking the federal government first and foremost to do away with conditional sentencing. Then he goes on to say that if they won't do that, minor property offences should be the only ones that are concerned.

That makes it difficult to be supportive of this resolution. If the resolution talked about conditional sentencing being an effective deterrent in some crimes that are not violent crimes, that are not against persons, and if this resolution talked about the ways in which the Ontario government within its jurisdiction could support that, it would be much easier for us to be wholeheartedly approving.

Let me say right off that in the time I was Attorney General, when all the attorneys general across the country were discussing the changes to the Criminal Code and were discussing the issue of conditional sentencing, Ontario was making very strong representations that conditional sentencing should not apply when crimes are against persons. All crimes against persons are not necessarily violent crimes in the same way. There are many levels of sexual assault and regular assault. There's simple assault, there's assault with a weapon, aggravated assault. They all are differing levels.

Generally speaking, there are three categories for criminal offences. Unfortunately, the first category has included within it some of those more or less -- I'm putting this in quotation marks -- "minor" crimes against persons.

My suggestion always was that conditional sentencing ought not to apply to crimes against persons. We know that 25% of those who are incarcerated in this country are incarcerated because of non-payment of fines, number one. Also, the categories -- shoplifting was mentioned by the member -- of shoplifting, uttering a forged document, theft under $1,000, damage under $1,000, mischief, trespass, and all sorts of other crimes, may indeed be appropriate.

The whole issue of conditional sentencing came out of the desire expressed strongly by judges and by those working in the criminal justice system that our system have more flexibility to try and mete the punishment to the crime, to try and keep those who had committed crimes connected to their community, keep them out of an incarceration situation where they would come in contact with others who are more hardened criminals, and to try and give to judges the flexibility and the range of sentencing that was most appropriate. That was the intention.

I must confess that we have to keep in mind that Canada is second only to the United States in terms of its rate of incarceration. Particularly with this pressure from this government to try and make more and more offences subject to jail time, there needs to be some way to deal with the numbers of people whom we have incarcerated and made unproductive in our system.

Conditional sentencing is potentially a very good way to deal with those who have not committed crimes against persons, whose offences are offences that need a clear sanction, whose behaviour needs to be clearly controlled in some way so that further harm won't come of it, but who are also in a situation where they are required to be contributing citizens. That is the purpose behind conditional sentencing.

The member is quite right that there are many instances where we read in the paper that a judge has given a conditional sentence in an inappropriate way. I find it unfortunate that the member chose a situation where the offender happened to be a women, when we know that women are far less likely to be offenders in the system and where the situation was as he described, because there are many examples of sexual assaults, of wife assaults, of murders that have occurred and for some inexplicable reason -- the member is quite right -- a conditional sentence is applied. This appears to me to be a very strange situation.

The member speculated about why that might be so. He talked about a pre-disposition report. I would say to the member, pre-disposition reports are written by probation and parole officers who work for the Ontario government. Do they have the time to do appropriate reports when the kinds of cutbacks that have happened in that area are making it more and more difficult for people to do their work appropriately and to supervise appropriately?

He talked about people breaking conditions in their conditional release and not being prosecuted for that. Why? Talk to any probation officer about what the caseload is because of the budget restrictions of the Ontario government and ask those probation officers how they can give the kind of supervision they need to give.

Has the Attorney General of Ontario issued a directive to crown attorneys around, first of all, plea bargaining and conditional sentencing, that they must not plea-bargain for conditional sentencing when it's a crime against persons? Has the Attorney General made a general directive in the crown policy manual that says it is inappropriate for a crown attorney ever to agree to, on a guilty plea, or to advocate at a sentencing hearing, for a conditional sentence when the crime has been against persons? I'd be delighted to hear it, but I don't believe that's the case.

I've been in too many cases where in fact that isn't the case and we see the plea bargain situation, in particular, resulting in conditional sentences where they shouldn't be there.

Let me give you an example of a young and vulnerable constituent of mine who came to me last February in great distress. The person who had sexually assaulted her, raped her, had reached a plea bargain with the crown. The person was released on a conditional sentence, on the condition that he not have any contact with her, that he not frequent the places they had frequented together, that he remain a certain distance from her, that he not contact her, all sorts of conditions.

She came to me, first of all, because she didn't think it was appropriate in that kind of a case that there should be a conditional sentence at all. She felt that was inappropriate and she felt it was inappropriate for the crown to have supported that.

She also came because she was running into this person all the time, in her neighbourhood and in the places she had gone. She had gone to the probation officer and the probation officer, an Ontario employee under the jurisdiction of this government, told her there was nothing they could do, that it costs too much to go after every little breach, and suggested to her that she should avoid going into the stores or the restaurants or the places where this person might bump into her. That's not respect for victims' rights and that's under the control of this government.

I told her what the complaint process was. She carried through with that complaint process, talked to the supervisor of the probation officer and has said very clearly that it's her goal in life to expose this issue of conditional sentencing where there are crimes against persons. I am happy to be able to tell her story today because that will help her to continue to fight against the injustice to her as a victim of this particular kind of sentencing.

But I would say to Mr Preston very directly: It is not appropriate when so much within the enforcement and the prosecution of offences comes under the jurisdiction of your government to try to shift the blame to the federal government. What you will hear back is a whole lot of questioning about what is going on in Ontario. What is going on in Ontario that is giving rise to this phenomenon here? Do we know whether it's more prevalent in Ontario for judges to be opting for conditional sentencing? I don't have those statistics, but I'm sure the Attorney General does.

I think it would be appropriate for this member to be lobbying his Attorney General and his Solicitor General around the enforcement, prosecution and then the supervision of those who have been given conditional sentences.

The argument of the federal government, the argument quite frankly of the judiciary, around restricting the use of conditional sentences to any one category of crime has always been that it is not appropriate to restrict the discretion of a judge on sentencing. It rings a little hollow because we know of course we do that in very serious cases. We know there are minimum sentences that can be given for many offences and we know there are categories of offences for which one can't apply for parole or probation until after a certain time.

It was an argument that always struck me as very bizarre because of course judges are there, first of all, to be fact-finders in the facts that are brought before them in the court of law to make a determination based on those facts of the guilt or innocence of the individual, and then to use discretion concerning the mitigating circumstances or the aggravating circumstances of the crime as to what the appropriate punishment is within the limits that are set for that crime within the Criminal Code.

It seems to me it would be quite reasonable if we were to pass a resolution that would go something like this: Given that we support the availability of conditional sentencing for judges in cases which are of a minor nature, which do not involve crimes against persons and where there has not been a history of repeated offences, given that we support it in that circumstance, we would ask for a limitation on that from the federal government to those kinds of crimes. That would be a reasonable thing.

But it should add a requirement that this House call upon the Attorney General and the Solicitor General in their roles in enforcement and prosecution and supervision in the justice system; that they be active players in this whole issue of conditional sentencing; that crown attorneys have clear policy around which they must use their influence within the court in asking for sentencing or in making decisions about plea bargains; that the probation and parole staff of the Ministry of the Solicitor General be given the resources, the training and the availability of sanctions that make conditional sentences really work, because they won't work without that kind of supervision; and that we clearly start as a community to stop the rhetoric about throwing everyone in jail and throwing away the key and start the discussion, a very clear discussion, of how we stop the revolving door syndrome in our prisons, how we really deal with rehabilitating those who are able to change their behaviour so that when they come back into our communities -- and we must remember that they will come back into our communities in the vast majority of cases -- they have the tools with which to support themselves and their families.

The conditions themselves, since the whole idea is that people be able to work and support themselves and their families, should include things like, if someone owes family support, that they be ordered as a condition of a conditional sentence to pay family support and that that be throughout the system in terms of release from jail and so on. That's one way we could actually make a positive out of keeping people at work and maintaining their families. It would make it a reality, and it isn't now.

Mr Jim Flaherty (Durham Centre): First of all, I compliment the member for Brant-Haldimand on bringing this important issue before this House for debate. The resolution speaks to fundamental concerns of this government, that of the security of our community and the safety of our citizens and that offenders are held accountable for their crimes.

Conditional sentencing was introduced by the federal government in September 1996. It allows the judge the option of ordering community service sentencing in cases where the judge is satisfied that the offender would not pose any danger to members of the public. In fact, the federal government believes that in some cases this may be the best way of dealing with certain offences. Some are calling the use of conditional sentencing a form of judge-ordered parole. This government agrees in principle that some offenders can be best dealt with by community sentencing.

However, this government is committed to ensuring the integrity of the justice system and restoring public confidence in the administration of justice. Public confidence in the justice system must not be compromised. The public has responded angrily to conditional sentences imposed on people who have committed serious offences. There is no shortage of media attention to what appear to be unreasonable sentences for serious crimes. People have the right to, and are demanding, safer communities. Governments must provide this through appropriate and responsible government policy.

At present, under the changes made by the federal government, those convicted of serious crimes may be considered for conditional sentences, something this government finds totally unacceptable. We believe, except in minor cases, that convicted criminals should be receiving jail sentences and should not remain in Ontario communities while serving those sentences.

If the federal government refuses to revoke these provisions, they should, at the very minimum, agree to limit the use of conditional sentencing provisions to minor offences. We will be urging the new federal justice minister to review the provisions of the Criminal Code with respect to conditional sentencing. We want her to either revoke or amend these provisions to limit conditional sentences to minor property offences.

We are concerned about reducing crime to make our communities safer. As the member for Downsview noted, we do have the crime control commission, of which I am a member along with the members for London South and Scarborough West, and we have embarked on a consultation process. We want to listen to people to hear from them what they are experiencing in their communities and what needs to be done to make their communities safer.

That consultation process has already involved public meetings in Chatham-Kent during the month of July; in Barrie last week; next week in Etobicoke; subsequently in Scarborough; in Peterborough; in my riding of Durham Centre, in Whitby, on September 30 at 7 pm at St Bernard Catholic School on Dryden Boulevard; and elsewhere in the province. Those are important public consultations, because these are issues which affect people seriously in their daily lives.

I listened with interest to the comments from the member for London Centre, who seeks to place limits on what is minor and what is serious.

I would say this, that in the public consultations to date, what we are hearing quite clearly is that if you are living alone and your apartment is broken into, that's serious to you; if you're being stalked, that's serious to you; if you're being threatened, that's serious to you; if your car is broken into, that's serious to you; if your business is broken into; if your privacy in your home is violated by home invasion, that's serious to you -- without violence to the person, but it is a violation of the privacy and sanctity of the home.

That's serious, the people in the province are telling us, when one talks about what are serious and what are minor offences.

I listened also with interest to the member for Downsview, who defends the faint hope clause, who says

section 745 is not something we should talk about -- forgetting that the provinces in this country constitutionally are responsible for paying for the administration of justice, that when Olson goes in the courts of British Columbia and takes two weeks of the court's time and the crown attorney's time and the time of the judge running that court, that is money paid by the taxpayers of British Columbia.

Similarly, the member for Downsview defends conditional sentencing and I suppose will defend the tragedy that is the current Young Offenders Act. We're hearing a great deal in our public consultations about how that act just doesn't work, not only from the police but from people in the community and from probation officers. There seems to be a clear consensus that that piece of legislation does not function to curb youth crime and make our communities safer in Ontario.

There is more I'd like to say on the subject, of course, but my colleagues also wish to speak to this important resolution brought before this House by the member for Brant-Haldimand, whom I compliment.

Mr Jim Brown (Scarborough West): I am pleased to be able to speak on my colleague's resolution to ask the federal government to eliminate conditional sentencing.

Federal Justice Minister Allan Rock introduced conditional sentencing in September 1996. It slipped through as one of a series of amendments to the Canadian Criminal Code and went almost unnoticed -- that is, until the repercussions of this ill-conceived piece of legislation began to be felt.

Conditional sentencing gives judges the option of sending offenders back into the community for house arrest rather than going to prison. It was designed to keep people the judges feel are not a danger to society from going to prison and costing the system.

Criminal offences are serious offences. Offences of a less serious nature are called

summary and usually are punishable by a fine. Serious offences should mean real punishment.

Since the introduction of conditional sentencing, there have been some frightening miscarriages of justice.

An Ontario man who threatened to kill his estranged wife was given a conditional sentence. He was allowed to live at home. This was his sentence.

A BC man admitted to sexually assaulting an 11-year-old victim once a week for three years, and he avoided jail. He never saw the inside of a prison, thanks to conditional sentencing.

A Grande Prairie man shot at his wife with a sawed-off rifle and received a conditional sentence. He walked the streets while on house arrest.

In British Columbia, a man who confessed to raping and sodomizing a 38-year-old screaming woman with a racquetball racquet was exempted from a two-year jail term. Yes, a conditional sentence.

Taxpayers are fed up with namby-pamby, limp-wristed sentencing. House arrest or conditional sentencing is a sham.

The federal Liberals have made the streets unsafe. For those who say our jails are too full, I submit that the federal government has filled them by refusing to make video remands mandatory. Some 90% of those being held in the Metro West Detention Centre are there on remands awaiting trial or, in many cases, yet another remand. The tremendous cost of incarcerating and transporting these people, many of whom are innocent, ties up police, costs a fortune, fills the courts and packs the detention centres. I urge the federal Liberals to mandate video remands.

Having a consistent system of sentencing for those who break the law does not fill up our jails; rather, it empties them. If someone does the crime, they should do the time. It has been proven that when so-called minor criminal offences are pursued diligently, both major and minor crime rates drop dramatically. The broken-window theory, well documented, is no-nonsense and it works. Zero tolerance: Crime declines and the prison population drops. It has been working in New York City for the past five years with no extra policing, no extra bodies on the police force. The prison population in New York declined from 22,000 to 17,000 and crime across the board over three years declined almost 50%.

The message of justice in this country must be clear and uniform. That message has to be that if you refuse to live by the laws, you will be punished. But sadly, that's exactly the opposite message than the federal government is giving to those who choose to break the law. Again and again the public has told the federal Liberals that they want the government to get tough on crime, to punish offenders and to protect public safety and victims' rights, and time and time again, the voice of the public has fallen on deaf ears, as our federal lawmakers ignore the public outcry.

It's tragic enough that the federal government refuses to scrap the Young Offenders Act, fails to repeal the faint hope clause for dangerous offenders and fails victims. I ask all my colleagues in the House to support the member for Brant-Haldimand and tell the federal government that conditional sentencing or house arrest does not represent the wishes of our constituents. We need to tell Ottawa that the people of Ontario want to see our lawmakers tackle crime, not back away from it.

We're fed up. We won't take it any more. If they do the crime, they should do the time.

Mr Gary L. Leadston (Kitchener-Wilmot): I'm pleased to support the member for Brant-Haldimand's resolution concerning conditional sentencing. I agree that public safety could be at risk by allowing people who commit violent crimes back into the community. The federal government must reconsider its change to the Criminal Code of Canada from last September that allows an offender to serve a sentence of less than two years in the community as long as that person is not considered a threat to public safety.

The following cases are prime examples of why this law should and must be changed: A 20-year-old male convicted of molesting an eight-year-old child was sentenced to a 12-month conditional sentence in his own home. A man convicted of sexual assault was sentenced to 16 months in a relative's home. A man sexually assaulted an 11-year-old babysitter and was sentenced to 15 months in the same community. A man and woman who stole $250,000 were handed a conditional sentence of 15 months of house arrest. These are just a few examples of the improper use of conditional sentencing.

I believe conditional sentencing should only be used for first-time, minor property offences, not child molesting, not rape, not sexual offences, certainly not sexual assault, or armed robbery. I would urge the members of this House to support this resolution to help send a very clear message to Ottawa to change the conditional sentencing law.

We represent the people of Ontario. Probably anyone in this room can cite an example of someone in their family, in their neighbourhood, in their community or a constituent who has been a victim. If it was up to the victims to decide, we would not have conditional sentencing.

The Acting Speaker: Mr Preston, you have two minutes to sum up.

Mr Preston: The member for Downsview asks the question, why would I get involved in something that's not in my jurisdiction? Because it has to be done. Because what is happening is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's in my backyard, my front yard or out of my jurisdiction. If it's wrong, it should be fixed.

I find myself in the curious position of agreeing almost 100% with the member for London Centre. There are problems today that we have not addressed that we should be addressing, and I for one will be on the back of my own government to make sure these problems are addressed.

I have heard continually today from the NDP caucus, what about boot camp? I will ask the question, what about the Arrell Youth Centre, known in youthful circles as the Arrell Hilton, built by the NDP government. If he was to question the escape record of the Arrell Hilton, he would find that boot camp is a shining example of keeping people behind doors.

Finally, I would ask that the people in this House get behind this bill so we can draw public attention, so criteria are made in order that judges will have something to go by in putting out conditional sentences only for first offences of minor crimes. I don't consider rape, manslaughter, three-time convictions for drunk driving, break and enter with a lengthy record to be first-time minor offences.

I still have two minutes.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): Go ahead.

Mr Preston: Thank you, sir. I appreciate that.

I did expect the Liberal caucus, by the way -- it's not out of the ordinary for them to complain when we get tough on crime. This is an ever-occurring and recurring situation. Being tough on crime is something I want to see done.

The member for London Centre says we don't have enough probation officers. If that's the case, we should have. If it's our government's fault, it should be fixed.

Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt): There go my taxes, you tax-and-spend Tories.

Mr Preston: The taxer and spender himself has called us tax-and-spend Tories, but that's quite all right; we can stand that.

If we're at fault, it should be fixed. There's no question about that. I'm not making apologies for something we should be doing that we're not doing. If we're not doing it, we should be. If crown attorneys are suffering, they should be increased; there's no question. That is an "if." I've said that across the board, "if" the probation offices are overworked. I know some who really grind. I also know some who are very well read, all on their time in business.

Mr Laughren: He said with incredulity.

Mr Preston: Yes. I know a lot of very hardworking crowns, and I know some who are not worked at all.

My biggest problem with conditional sentencing is when one of my charges comes to me and says: "Look what this guy did. How come he's allowed to stay home and watch television?"

The Acting Speaker: The member's time has expired.

Because the standing orders require that votes on private members' public business not be taken before 12 noon, I will suspend the proceedings until noon, pursuant to standing order 95(e), at which time I'll put the questions on the ballot items debated this morning.

The House recessed from 1158 to 1200.

TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE

The Acting Speaker (Ms Marilyn Churley): We will deal first with ballot item number 93, standing in the name of Mr Smith.

Mr Smith has moved private member's notice of motion number 66. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

CONDITIONAL SENTENCING

The Acting Speaker (Ms Marilyn Churley): We will now deal with ballot item number 94, standing in the name of Mr Preston.

Mr Preston has moved private member's notice of motion number 67. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Did I hear a no? I may have to do this over again. I'm not sure if I heard a no or not.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: In that case, it's carried.

All matters related to private members' public business having been completed, I do now leave the chair and the House will resume at 1:30 pm.

The House recessed from 1200 to 1331.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

SMALL BUSINESS

Mr Mario Sergio (Yorkview): The Ontario Restaurant Association recently released figures indicating that the restaurant and foodservice industry continues to face difficult economic times. Ontario bankruptcies in this sector were up in 1996. Bankruptcy figures for the first three months of 1997 seem to indicate that if the trend continues, bankruptcies this year will surpass the record high of 1996.

This is disturbing news at a time when this government is trumpeting that Ontario is once again a place of prosperity, with increased jobs and increased business confidence. This is disturbing news for our youth workers, who represent the main component of workers in the restaurant and foodservice industry, and this is indeed bad news for businesses faced with big hikes in commercial property taxes resulting from the government's downloading plans.

The Premier says that our economy is heading in the right direction. He says his government has a plan to create jobs. He assures young people that they will have a bright future. I urge this government to ponder the Ontario Restaurant Association's warning that we may see many more lost hospitality jobs in 1997.

Increases in commercial property taxes will hurt small businesses. Downloading costs on to municipal taxpayers will hurt small businesses. Businesses will not be able to create more jobs. This is bad news for small businesses. It is bad news for taxpayers. It is bad news for youth employment.

PUBLIC HEALTH

Ms Shelley Martel (Sudbury East): One of the major social services being dumped on to municipalities by this government is public health. While the province will continue to fund some limited services, like vaccinations and the healthy babies program, municipalities will pick up 100% of the costs of all other programs which are mandatory to deliver. Other public health programs might be provided if the municipality can afford to pay for this.

In Sudbury, this downloading puts our genetic counselling services at risk. For the past 20 years, the health unit has run this as a community-based program with 100% provincial dollars. This is different from southern Ontario, where the program has still been funded by the province but is usually based in a hospital or university setting.

Under Bill 152, this government has decided that funding of genetic counselling services is no longer important and won't pay for this. This does not appear as a mandatory program for municipalities to deliver either. This program will have to stack up against all the other new programs and services and costs being dumped on to municipalities.

Given that the download for the regional municipality of Sudbury is $73 million alone, the health unit and its clients are right to be concerned about the future of this service. Northerners who need this service should not have to travel to Toronto to get it. This government needs to reconsider its priorities and continue to fund genetic counselling services.

SESQUICENTENNIAL OF BROOKLIN

Mr John O'Toole (Durham East): On September 6, 1997, the village of Brooklin, located in my riding of Durham East, will celebrate the 150th anniversary of its naming.

The village, located north of Whitby on Highway 12, was founded in 1840 and was previously named Winchester. When residents of the village went to apply for a post office, they discovered there was already a Winchester post office elsewhere in Ontario. On August 11, 1847, the 300 inhabitants of the village met and agreed to change the name to Brooklin. No one is certain why they chose that name, but perhaps it's because of the little brook that trickles through the town.

Throughout the day on September 6, several events have been scheduled to commemorate the heritage of this village, with horse-drawn carriages, entertainment and self-guided tours. Visitors to Brooklin can see some of the historic buildings, such as the old Brooklin Mill, which today houses a hardware store and small engine repair shop, and a former stable currently being used by the W.J. Medland and Son Ltd business.

Like so many Ontario villages, Brooklin is no exception in its contribution to this wonderful province of Ontario. At one time, Brooklin was known as being the smallest town in the world to have a senior A lacrosse team. In 1968 the Redmen senior A lacrosse team won the esteemed Mann Cup, and again in 1969, and the team went on to win the cup again in 1985, 1987, 1988 and 1990. The Mann Cup: Morley Kells would like to forget about this.

Recognition should also be given to community leaders such as Dr John McKinney and John Dryden.

I would like to ask the members of the Legislature to join me in congratulating the residents of Brooklin on their 150th celebration.

SCHOOL TEACHERS

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): I wish to read a letter to the editor directed to the Premier from this past August 21, 1997, submitted by a teacher in my riding.

"Every August around this time, I gear up for a new school year. I get ready to teach children to process information and understand reality clearly and love one another.

"But this year a cloud hangs over my mental and emotional preparation. I don't know whether my job of imparting information, cultivating skills, teaching to share, to be socialized and civil will be interrupted and made more difficult by a strike.

"Given the climate being created by this government, I don't know whether I will ever again do my job as well as I have done it in the past.

"I do know that I will continue to teach children to understand history and that history will judge this government as the most shameful, tyrannical and incompetent this province has had since the Family Compact provoked the rebellion of 1837.

"Everyone in the province has been equipped with the skills to realize that Ontario is not working your way. Eventually, you and your party will pay the price of your arrogance. For you see, Premier Harris, in spite of you and in spite of what you would have the people of Ontario believe, we have done our job well."

Upon taking office, the Premier and his minister were clear that they wanted to create a crisis in education. It's really truly unfortunate that the minister's crisis was one that affects the teachers and, more importantly, the students they teach in this province.

That was submitted by a teacher whom I know well, a former colleague from the Kenora Board of Education.

GIOVANNI CABOTO

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): The Italian community of Sault Ste Marie is doing it again, contributing to the quality of life in Sault Ste Marie and enhancing the appreciation we all have for the cultural heritage and history of our community, to commemorate the 500th anniversary of the discovery of Canada by Giovanni Caboto, more commonly known as John Cabot, the first Italian to set foot in Canada.

They've organized a Giovanni Caboto Day to be held next Tuesday, September 9, 1997. With the cooperation of the Italian clubs of our city, a dinner is being sponsored by the Marconi Society and will be held at the Marconi Club on Tuesday, September 29, 1997, to honour this great Italian. The highlight of this event will be a visit from the highest-ranking jurist of Italian descent, the Honourable Frank Iacobucci of the Supreme Court of Canada, who will be the guest speaker at the dinner at the Marconi Club.

For those of you who may not know who John Cabot is, and I doubt there will be many, it says in the Encyclopaedia Britannica that he was a "navigator and explorer who by his voyages in 1497 and 1498 helped lay the groundwork for the later British claim to Canada." I today want to stand in my place at the Legislature of Ontario and offer congratulations to the Italian club in Sault Ste Marie, to the Marconi Club, for taking the lead in this very exciting initiative and to Tony Celli, president of the Marconi Club, for giving his leadership.

DURHAM BOARD OF EDUCATION

Mr Jim Flaherty (Durham Centre): I rise today to bring the attention of my colleagues to the tremendous work being done by the Durham Board of Education in the continuing education of teachers and the efforts made by a large number of teachers to continue their education on their own time, at their own expense.

In August, the Durham board held staff development and training sessions with regard to the new Ontario curriculum, creative problem-solving and cooperative team learning. The sessions were attended by over 600 educators, 80 of whom were from other Ontario boards. Some were from as far away as the Maritimes, Quebec, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, as well as the United States.

The Durham Board of Education is noted for the innovation and excellence of its staff development programs. In fact, the board was the recipient of the 1996 Carl Bertelsmann Prize for excellence and innovation in educational programming.

Winning that prize has helped Durham's already growing reputation. They will host and train educators from Scotland, Norway, Japan, Germany and Korea later this year. An international network of centres of learning is being established this fall between the Durham board and a number of European school authorities. This kind of sharing is critical if we are to survive and give our children the best education possible in this new information economy. We all have much to learn from one another.

It is good news not only that the Durham board is leading the way in staff development and training, but also that so many educators from Durham and elsewhere used their own time and money to further their professional development this past August. They are to be congratulated.

PRIVATIZATION OF PUBLIC SERVICES

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I agree with Jane Becker about the Province of Ontario Savings Office:

"This provincial government bank -- one of the best-kept secrets in the financial community -- serves about 50,000 contented depositors with simple, hassle-free and above all pleasant banking at 23 branches and five agencies across Ontario....

"You can't get a loan, a mutual fund or an RRSP at a Savings Office. But you'll never be hounded out of a lineup and told to use an ATM (the POSO has no ATMs and few lineups), or charged that abomination, a monthly maintenance fee. The staff doesn't change every month or so...and go out of their way to give good service, such as telephoning a customer if they must debit an account.

"Now the provincial government is threatening to change it all. In April, it told Savings Office customers by letter that it was reviewing the operation. Possibilities for the future were `improved efficiency' under provincial ownership, a partnership with an existing bank or trust company, or outright sale....

"The government has now named CIBC Wood Gundy to conduct a review of POSO operations and report by mid-August. Talk about inviting the fox into the henhouse.

"All this makes little sense. The Savings Office is profitable, works well for the government, customers like it, and there is no obvious outside group lusting to take it over....

"Is the government now going to destroy 75 years of good relations by handing us over to a megabank? If it does, you can say goodbye to the last shred of civilized, gougeless, customer-friendly banking in Ontario."

DIANA, PRINCESS OF WALES

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): I'd like to take this opportunity to add my voice to the millions who are expressing in so many ways their shock and deep sadness over the tragic death of Diana, Princess of Wales.

I had the privilege to meet and spend some time with Diana at an event when she was visiting Toronto. Like all who came to meet her, I was struck by her beauty, her kindness and her warmth. The world watched Diana grow from a young, timid bride to a strong, caring person who took control over her own life. She had to do it in the public eye, and I think one of the reasons the princess was so well regarded and loved is that, like the rest of us, she wasn't perfect and didn't try to pretend to be. She spoke honestly and candidly about her joys and sorrows.

I remember when we had the opportunity to talk for a bit how her eyes lit up when I asked her about her sons, Prince William and Prince Harry. She said she missed them and was really looking forward to going home and seeing them again.

Speaker, we are all deeply saddened by the death of Princess Diana. She will be sincerely missed. Diana, may you rest in peace.

UNITED WAY CAMPAIGN

Mr Doug Galt (Northumberland): The closing of the Exhibition is a traditional signal that summer is coming to an end, but in the rest of Ontario it signals something almost as significant: the launch of the province-wide United Way campaign.

As I'm sure the members of this House are aware, United Way chapters are managed and run largely by volunteers, countless volunteers working selflessly for the betterment of their fellow Canadians. In Ontario, 44 United Way organizations raised $130 million last year. That's a 2.9% increase over the previous year's total.

I'm particularly pleased to be able to report that the Northumberland United Way came third in Ontario and sixth in Canada for campaign growth in 1996. In fact, Northumberland residents contributed almost $500,000 to the campaign for an impressive 14.5% increase in contributions last year. United Way funds are used to support some 4,000 member agencies across the country, ranging from the Canadian National Institute for the Blind to Big Sisters and the Boy Scouts of Canada.

I can't think of a more worthy organization to support, and I would urge the Ontario public and the members of this House to dig deep this fall and give generously to the United Way. As the slogan says, "It's the way to help the most."

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE OMBUDSMAN

Mr John O'Toole (Durham East): I beg leave to present the final report on review of the Office of the Ombudsman, 1992-97, from the standing committee on the Ombudsman and move its adoption.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Does the member wish to make a brief statement?

Mr O'Toole: Yes, Mr Speaker. First, I would like to thank the previous Chair of the Ombudsman committee, Mr John Parker, MPP for York East. Further, I would remind members that all three parties worked hard on and participated in the unanimous adoption of this report. The work should not go unrecognized, and I appreciate the support.

I move adjournment of the debate.

The Speaker: Mr O'Toole moves adjournment of the debate. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Reports by committees? Introduction of bills? Motions? Deferred votes?

It's time for oral questions. Official opposition --

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Fort William): Ministry statements?

The Speaker: Oh yes, I missed that. How did I do that, you might add. It's clearly not my fault; it's left out on my list here.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): Blame it on staff. Shame on you.

The Speaker: Just kidding. No, it's not; it's right there. Statements by ministries?

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, minister responsible for women's issues): It is with some pleasure that I rise in the House today to outline a series of opportunities and challenges for communities across Ontario. I'm speaking about the grant program contained in the Agenda for Action: Prevention of Violence Against Women.

On July 2 we introduced that action plan, which emphasizes our government's commitment to ensuring that women can live and work in safety, without fear of violence. The plan includes $27 million in new spending over the next four years on top of the more than $100 million this government spends each year on violence prevention.

It's a goal that can only be reached with a coordinated long-term strategy. We have the strategy in place, with a lot of help from members in this place and citizens from across the province of Ontario, and now we are continuing the work through our communities to meet that challenge.

The Agenda for Action includes specific plans for six new domestic assault courts and for increased counselling services for children who have witnessed or experienced domestic violence. The plan enhances funding for educational tools that will teach our young people right from the start that violence is never acceptable. The plan also includes a significant community component in the form of priority project funding.

This year we have a total of $675,000 available to non-profit community groups who offer creative solutions to the issues of violence prevention and women's economic independence. We will be giving priority to projects that are submitted jointly by two or more community organizations or that incorporate support from the private sector.

Our government is encouraging communities to work together to find solutions for their particular needs, and this priority project funding is part, we think, of that answer.

The grants will help support innovative projects that address one or more of the following priorities: community safety and violence prevention, economic self-sufficiency for women, and facilitating the transition from living with violence to becoming economically independent.

One of the ways in which women can break free of a violent situation is by having enough money to live independently. One of our goals as a government is to ensure that women have the tools they need to become economically independent.

To help women make the transition from living with violence to becoming economically self-sufficient, projects could include creating models to provide counselling, financial planning, career planning and job training for women who have been abused. Or they could involve developing and testing models to coordinate existing services that allow women to move from violent situations where their lives and finances are controlled to a position of emotional and financial independence.

We are looking for projects that will promote economic development through the creation of new resource materials, through mentoring programs and through small business development. We are looking for projects that are geared towards the development of flexible service models and improved service coordination and delivery. And we are looking for innovative projects that will raise awareness and change negative behaviour that devalues women and girls.

We expect that the opportunities presented by the priority project funding will inspire communities to develop creative, coordinated responses that will benefit women in particular and, by extension, our province and families as a whole.

Mr Speaker, I'm looking forward to sharing with you in the months ahead some of the exciting, innovative projects that will be originating in communities across Ontario.

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Fort William): The minister responsible for women's issues must truly be desperate to have her government say something to women that she would get up and make this kind of statement today. I suppose she's working in a context of a government that is prepared to hit women and children at every opportunity and on every front, so she feels any little bit that she might be able to offer is better than the absolute nothing, or worse than that, the attacks that are launched on women and children by virtually every other ministry of her government.

This is far too little. It's not just too late but it continues to be too little: $675,000, a small part of the $5 million worth of Band-Aids that the minister actually announced originally in July. But now $675,000, and with that she's going to do community safety and violence prevention, economic self-sufficiency for women and she's going to facilitate the transition from living with violence to becoming economically independent -- with $675,000. That is an unbelievable statement to make.

It is, however, perhaps justified by the fact that she's not really going to provide service to women and children. They're just going to create models. At a time when this government has put women and children in a position where they cannot be economically independent, the minister talks about using $675,000 to create models that might help women and children become economically independent.

This is a government that has Bill 136 in front of this House even now, which takes pay equity away from women, which says to employers, "If you haven't got a pay equity plan, don't worry, you won't have to have one unless some woman complains," which makes it very easy for employers but virtually impossible for women. I don't know how the minister for women's issues cannot be on her feet condemning Bill 136 in the way in which it takes pay equity again from women.

This is a minister talking about economic independence for women and children. There was a story in the paper just yesterday about how many families in Metropolitan Toronto are being forced into motels because of the lack of affordable social housing, and yet this government has another bill where they're going to dump social housing on to municipalities. Economic independence? What chance do we have?

Minister, economic independence means women being able to get out of abusive situations and find that independence. You're talking here about creating models to provide counselling. You know full well your government cancelled the counselling that was provided to women who did escape from abusive situations. You cancelled the counselling for second-stage housing. That is absolutely right.

You know, Minister, that if women are going to get out of abusive situations they need help. One thing we will applaud is that you are expanding the domestic violence courts, although you haven't actually announced them here today and it seems you're not going announce one for northwestern Ontario, which we'd very much like to see. But even then, having the courts is not going to be helpful if women can't get the legal support they need, and your Attorney General has made sure that women are not going to get legal aid support for domestic cases.

Some 80% of women cannot get legal aid, so you, as part of your $5-million Band-Aid, are going to come up with $300,000 to provide emergency legal counselling for women, a very small Band-Aid to try and deal with the mess your Attorney General has made.

When we're on the topic of messes the Attorney General has made for women, what women are going to find economic independence, if they actually take the step of leaving an abusive situation, when they don't know whether they are ever going to get their family support money because the family support plan continues to be in absolute chaos?

Minister, you talk here about raising awareness and changing negative behaviour that devalues women and girls. Start by educating the Attorney General, who said that violence against women is a sickness. Tell the Attorney General loudly and clearly that domestic violence and sexual assault are a crime, and the minister has to be prepared to acknowledge that.

Maybe you could start your education and awareness campaign by educating the Minister of Health. Women's College Hospital had to take your Minister of Health into court to even get them to acknowledge that there just might be a unique role played by a hospital which is the national leader, as you full well know, in dealing with sexual assault against women.

Economic independence from a government that cut 23% from welfare rates, and 60% of the people affected were women who are sole-support parents to their children? There is a gross hypocrisy in this statement and it is incredibly offensive and demeaning in itself to women.

I want to end by telling you that even the community models you want to develop are causing concern in the field. You know that. Your colleague the Solicitor General has a letter from the Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council in which they express their very real concern that any dollars you are putting into violence-against-women programs are going into new community groups that will be run by volunteers. They plead with you to provide --

The Speaker: Thank you. Responses, third party.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): Minister, I am disappointed in your statement today. I heard that you were making a statement and I hoped there would be something substantive announced today. I think every member in this House, including members of your government, has repeatedly said that violence against women is unacceptable, that there should be zero tolerance and it was a priority of the government.

We are waiting and waiting for you, the minister responsible for women's issues, to actually put your money where your mouth is in terms of helping to prevent violence against women and then making sure that programs are in place and up and running for victims of domestic violence. You have not done that today. I don't know why you made this announcement today. Maybe there is some pressure on you to get up and make some kind of announcement about what you are doing on women's issues. This has all been announced before. There is nothing new in this; a piddly amount of money, $655,000, to create models. Models for what? We have real victims of violence out there now.

Interjection.

Ms Churley: I wish the minister would just listen for a few minutes instead of sitting there and repeatedly trying to defend her record here. Since this government has come to power, you started off by cutting welfare, which affected all kinds of women in precarious domestic situations. You really messed up. The Attorney General totally messed up the family support plan, absolutely messed it up, so that thousands and thousands of women were affected by that. Some women who may have been in violent situations were affected by that.

Minister, your government has gotten rid of employment equity and pay equity for some of the most vulnerable women in the province at the lowest-paying jobs. You have plans now to get rid of rent control. You cut completely the counselling and the substance of second-stage housing, where women and their kids had an opportunity to go after having to leave the family home and before they were actually on their own again.

Child care: The Minister of Community and Social Services seems to continue to say that they are increasing and improving child care. You are going to start forcing women who have children in school to go out on workfare, but there is no child care. There's a piddly amount attached to that.

There are women's groups across the province who have provided you, Minister, as they have us, with evidence that there have been women who were forced to go back into violent situations because of the cuts across the board of programs that your government has made.

Minister, what I want to say to you today is, take a deep breath, go talk once again to the women who are out there working in the field and listen to what they have to say. Part of the problem here is that once again this government isn't listening to the people. The people who are involved in this issue continue to tell you over and over again that, overall, you