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April 4, 1990

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

SPORTS COUNCIL

EDUCATION

HOLLAND EQUIPMENT LTD

PLANT CLOSURE

TIRE BURNING

RALPH SNELGROVE

CONSERVATION OFFICERS

TRANSIT SERVICES

EVENTS IN LITHUANIA

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

SOCIAL SERVICES / SERVICES SOCIAUX

RESPONSES

SOCIAL SERVICES

VISITOR

ORAL QUESTIONS

TEMAGAMI DISTRICT RESOURCES

RENT REGULATION

HOSPITAL FINANCING

GOODS AND SERVICES TAX

POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION FINANCING

ONTARIO HOME OWNERSHIP SAVINGS PLAN

SOCIAL SERVICES

LIQUOR STORE HOURS

LAND REGISTRATION

COURT FACILITIES

ORILLIA SOLDIERS’ MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

TEACHERS’ LABOUR DISPUTE

GASOLINE PRICES

MARMORA ARENA

PETITIONS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

CAPITAL FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

CAPITAL FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

CAPITAL FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS AND PRIVATE BILLS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION (CONTINUED)

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

SPORTS COUNCIL

Miss Martel: On 31 March the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation terminated provincial funding to the Northeastern Ontario Regional Sports Committee. For 16 years, this nonprofit agency has been promoting and co-ordinating amateur sport in northeastern Ontario. With the end of provincial support, the committee also closed its doors on 31 March, as other funding sources were not secured.

In a 20 March letter to me, the minister admitted that a study commissioned by the ministry did recommend that the committee continue, but at arm’s length from the ministry and with the aid of more volunteers from communities in northeastern Ontario. However, the ministry was not willing to discuss the matter further. The minister stated that he wished to use the funds to provide new sports initiatives in the north. He cited Sportability and the Ontario athletes assistance program as new, with continued funding for the national coaching certificate program.

Sportability was, in fact, piloted two to three years ago in northeastern Ontario and is designed for six- to nine-year-olds, with delivery in the school system. This physical education program, administered by a Toronto agency, should be funded by the Ministry of Education. The Ontario athletes assistance program offers $500 per athlete per year for travel to competitions, but it is a duplicate of a program offered in northwestern Ontario. The national coaching certificate program is run by the sports council already but, with its demise, another sponsor is needed.

The ministry should have continued to fund the sports council until other sponsors were located. Now nothing fills the gap and there has been no indication that the ministry will create another agency to handle sports in northeastern Ontario.

EDUCATION

Mr Jackson: The nation has cast its eyes on the Ottawa-Carleton French-Language School Board because they recently fed baked worms to kindergarten students. This lesson was sanctioned by the Ministry of Education via its Circular 14 curriculum directive. Although some may wince at the thought, a diet of worms would be better than what this Liberal government has been feeding children and educators in this province.

Shake’n Bake Conway has a unique recipe of his own for education in Ontario. The recipe is as follows:

1. Take a world-class education system and commission a journalist to write that the system is running on empty.

2. With this needed justification for change, announce an assortment of new education programs without consulting anyone in the education community.

3. Advertise these programs in the Toronto Star to create public demand, but do not supply school boards with the money to pay for them.

4. Drop the level of provincial support to 40 per cent and accuse school boards of fiscal irresponsibility.

5. Demoralize the teaching profession by refusing to negotiate a fair pension deal.

6. Run an election campaign espousing lifelong learning, taking credit for visionary zeal, and then dump the costs on to local taxpayers.

If the members think this is a recipe for success, they are greatly mistaken. We will wait with bated breath for the results.

HOLLAND EQUIPMENT LTD

Mr Tatham: Did you ever try to ring the bell at the fair? We have a real bellringer being manufactured in Oxford by Holland Equipment Ltd. They export 70 per cent of their production to the United States and ship machines to Japan, Sweden and Australia. It is a tillage tool that (

a) increases farm profits, (

b) creates Canadian jobs, (

c) controls farm erosion and (

d) reduces runoff pollution.

It is called an Aer Way. In 1982, Holland sold 17 units. Last year their sales were up to 700 units. Presently, sales are running about 50 per cent ahead of forecast and they are working six days a week.

If you can make more farm profits and look after the land, I would say you ring the bell. Congratulations to Holland Equipment of Norwich.

By the way, the Earth’s population is soaring faster than at any time in the history of mankind -- up three people every second.

PLANT CLOSURE

Mr Mackenzie: Between the federal government’s free trade sellout and dismantling of the Foreign Investment Review Agency and the refusal of the provincial Liberal government to deliver on promises to protect workers in plant closures, workers’ jobs and hopes of developing high-tech industries are both going down the toilet.

The profitable Modular Controls firm in Burlington is being closed just two years after being purchased by Trinova Corp of the United States, and the equipment is being moved to the United States. Trinova gains a highly successful product developed here and more than 40 workers in Burlington, and probably another 30 in Etobicoke, lose their jobs. The American company offers a $1,000 bonus to employees only if they stay until the plant closes in May.

Corporate rationalization and what is good for business is this government’s creed. What is good for workers simply does not count. After all, what is a worker’s job, or even a highly successful and profitable firm developing new technology and products, when it stands in the way of more profits for the corporations?

When it comes to a decision between what is good for workers and their communities or corporate profits, this government sold out to business early in its term. No wonder the workers are angry at the vultures gathering to move the equipment and jobs down to the United States.

TIRE BURNING

Mr J. M. Johnson: I rise today to urge the government to support technology that could prevent another disaster like the recent tire fire at Hagersville from ever occurring again. For over one year now, St Marys Cement Corp has requested permission from the Minister of the Environment to do a test burn of tires. While the Minister of Mines, the member for Quinte, recently indicated his interest in the project, as of today, St Marys has still not received approval from the Ministry of the Environment.

Burning tires is an alternative to the potentially hazardous practice of tire storage. As the Hagersville tire fire has demonstrated, storage can be dangerous and expensive. What is more, tire burning is a proven technology currently being used in the United States and Europe that saves on the cost of importing coal from the United States and is less detrimental to the environment than the burning of coal.

I ask the government to give this technology a chance. It is time to allow a test burn on tires and put the nightmare of another Hagersville behind us.

RALPH SNELGROVE

Mr Owen: One of the first people I heard of when I moved to Barrie in May 1959 was Ralph Snelgrove. He was a doer, someone who got things done, a man concerned about his community. Ralph Snelgrove founded the Barrie AM radio station CKBB in 1949. Six years later he founded the television station CKVR.

Ralph had a sense of humour which enabled him to put calamities into their proper light. For example, in the opening program of the Barrie radio station a horrendous lightning storm struck the community. They were no sooner on air than lightning knocked them out of commission. Ralph used to tell me that they started with a bang.

Ralph was born in Newfoundland. His roots taught him a way of communicating with people of all walks of life. He helped bring about many fine projects, such as the Barrie Lions Club pool and the YMCA. In the 1950s, Ralph served as a Barrie school trustee. When others were thinking of retirement, Ralph, well into his late 60s, served as a Barrie city alderman and twice carried the Liberal banner in federal elections.

Ralph has played a leading role in helping to raise $12 million of the $16 million required from the public for the new Barrie Royal Victoria Hospital. Ralph has been involved with Big Brothers, the food bank, the United Way and the chamber of commerce. His peers in the field of broadcasting honoured Ralph by making him a member of the Broadcast Hall of Fame. His wife, Val, and his family will sorely miss Ralph. However, his friends and those who benefited from his energy and compassion will also sorely miss him.

CONSERVATION OFFICERS

Mr Wildman: I am gratified that the conservation officers in this province have finally received the justice they deserve and have been reclassified to take into account their responsibilities as not only technicians but also peace officers who have a responsibility to protect not only the fish and game but also the population of the province and to ensure that the fish and game regulations, as well as the forestry and parks regulations, are properly enforced.

It is unfortunate, however, that the provincial government, the Ministry of Natural Resources and the Management Board of Cabinet had to be dragged kicking and screaming to recognizing the true worth of the conservation officers in this province. We now have the dispute resolved, a dispute that first came to the fore in 1985. It took five years of arbitration and negotiations before they won their fight. Would that the Ministry of Natural Resources and the provincial government in this province had recognized the worth of the conservation officers rather than having to be forced to recognize it, to reclassify them and to pay them up to $38,000 retroactive pay.

TRANSIT SERVICES

Mr Cousens: Listen to this quotation: “Co-ordination of municipal and interregional transit systems, fare integration, commuter rail service upgrades and improvements to the TTC rapid transit network are among the highlights of the Ontario government’s Transportation Directions for the Greater Toronto Area.”

No, this is not a synopsis of tomorrow’s scheduled press conference at Union Station by the Minister of Transportation concerning the transit development initiatives. In fact, it comes from a 24 May 1988 press release by the former minister outlining “immediate transit commitments and longer-term directions.”

Tomorrow the Minister of Transportation will announce the construction of a Finch Avenue subway loop and an Eglinton Avenue busway, an expansion of GO Transit services and the purchase of Union Station. These immediate transit commitments were first outlined by the TTC in May 1985. The transit plans were conveniently reannounced in May 1988 by the ministry in a document entitled Transportation Directions for the Greater Toronto Area.

I would like to take this opportunity today to thank yesterday’s minister for tomorrow’s announcement.

EVENTS IN LITHUANIA

Mr Sola: For 50 years now Canada and the rest of the western world have been making pious statements regarding the illegality and their nonrecognition of the Soviet occupation of Lithuania and the Baltic states.

On 11 March, President Vytautas Landsbergis proclaimed the independence of Lithuania from Moscow’s rule. What does this mean? It simply means that Mr Landsbergis made a de facto reality of our de jure pronouncements. How has Canada, the United States and the western world reacted? Have they afforded official recognition to Lithuania’s independence? “This is not the time,” is our response. Shades of Chamberlain and “peace in our time.”

Are we saying that for 50 years we did not mean what we said, or do we mean that today we do not have the courage to back up our convictions? It seems to me that all the courage displayed today is in non-free countries such as Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and the Ukraine. Perhaps “free world” should be redefined as “lacking in or absence of courage.”

Like the Chinese student facing down the tanks in Tiananmen Square, they are confronting the Soviet tanks in Lithuania while we bury our heads in the sand. We must support Lithuania. We must force Gorbachev to the negotiating table. We cannot allow a repeat of the Chinese and Romanian scenarios. Canada and especially the United States must give official recognition to Lithuania.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

SOCIAL SERVICES / SERVICES SOCIAUX

Hon Mr Beer: Today I am announcing the release of an important study of this province’s social services system. As the members are well aware, the government of Ontario is committed to improving that system, but we believe we cannot and should not act in isolation from our partners in managing, funding and planning services and programs for the people of Ontario.

As members know, the Provincial-Municipal Social Services Review Committee was established three years ago. It was charged with the onerous but essential task of reviewing the roles and responsibilities of the provincial and municipal governments in the management, funding and planning of our social services.

The 11-member review committee comprised four senior representatives of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, three from the Ontario Municipal Social Services Association and four from my ministry. The committee’s mandate was to review the strengths and weaknesses of the existing relationships between the ministry and municipalities with respect to social services delivery and funding, to establish program and cost-sharing objectives and, most important, to propose options for a more rational framework for establishing roles and responsibilities.

The committee reviewed the social system through extensive research with representatives of the provincial and municipal governments, as well as people from the voluntary services sector. It is my pleasure to report to the house that the committee has completed its work.

Nous rendons donc public aujourd’hui le rapport du Comité d’examen des services sociaux provinciaux-municipaux, dont la tâche était d’examiner le rôle et la responsabilité des gouvernements provincial et municipaux en matière de gestion, de financement et de planification de nos services sociaux.

Le comité a étudié le système des services sociaux moyennant des recherches poussées, réalisées de concert avec des représentants des gouvernements provincial et municipaux et des personnes provenant du secteur des services bénévoles.

Ce rapport vient compléter les résultats d’autres études importantes, notamment ceux du Comité d’examen de l’aide sociale. Il s’avérerait, sans aucun doute, de grande valeur au fur et à mesure que nous procéderons à restructurer notre système de services sociaux.

This report complements the work of many other significant reviews, most notably the Social Assistance Review Committee. It will prove valuable as we move forward to reshape our social services system.

Over the next six months the Association of Municipalities of Ontario will consult with its members to examine the review’s recommendations. I look forward to receiving their response as well as the views of community agencies and the voluntary services sector. I believe it is vital to have the benefit of these responses before taking any action on the committee’s recommendations.

I am delighted that four members of the Provincial-Municipal Social Services Review Committee are in the House today. It is my pleasure to welcome and introduce them: Ron Book, mayor of the town of Grimsby, who co-chaired the committee; Nancy Smith, councillor and chairman of the social service committee of the regional municipality of Ottawa-Carleton; Phil Johnston, commissioner of social services for the regional municipality of Waterloo; and John MacKinnon, administrator of social services for Huron county and a member of the Ontario Municipal Social Services Association.

I want to thank profoundly all the committee members for the contributions each of them has made to this important review. It offers a strategic tool to help us shape our social services system and meet the challenges we will face together in the future.

RESPONSES

SOCIAL SERVICES

Mr Allen: I rise to respond to the statement just made by the Minister of Community and Social Services. Perhaps my first remarks should be to pay my own tribute to the members of the committee, who laboured on this document. I think that any persons who give service to the province in trying to straighten out some of the jurisdictional and funding problems deserve tribute, regardless of the results that they produce, because it is no mean feat and no easy task to wrestle with some of the complexities of finance, jurisdiction and administration of complex social programs in this province.

Having said that, I want to indicate the couple of items in the report that do impress me positively.

I think that certainly it is in the spirit of the Social Assistance Review Committee recommendations in so far as it is in some measure consistent with the proposals relating to the unification of the delivery of income support programs and, second, in so far as it is recommended that the province take over 100 per cent of the funding of children’s services on the one hand, including, of course, administration of and responsibilities entirely for children’s aid work in the province and 100 per cent of the funding devoted to income support programs in general.

I believe that is a very healthy and wholesome development.

On the other hand, I see something of a retreat in going from 80-20 to 75-25. I am not sure how that will go down in the municipalities. I also observe that I think that one of the elements of the report that the minister should work with as quickly as possible is the proposal that there be an equalization mechanism, something that exists between federal and provincial governments, to see that the adequacy of resources of each community is balanced against its capacity to deliver services, so that no community or region is delivered less than average services at more than average cost. That, I think, is a valuable principle to extend into provincial social service administration and funding.

However, when I come to the administrative side of the document, and unless my fuller reading of this will betray something else to me, I find it curious that what was supposed to be an effort at producing a more rational structure for the delivery of social services does not appear to me to have clarified very much or to have reorganized or rationalized very much. I see a number of areas in which matters still await resolution; for example, cost-sharing of services, service planning and service supervision.

Evidently those delegated by the ministry to contribute to this report went with no particular directions, and the document that has resulted has no particular conclusion in those areas. If we are going to go through six months of consultation with the municipalities on the basis of a number of recommendations, for instance, that do not have any specific focus, where are we going to be in six months’ time and how long will it be before we get a resolution of these problems?

Second, the whole jurisdictional administrative problem appears to be layered upon layer in a most confusing fashion. There is a great deal of discussion around extensive consultation on an ongoing basis, developing community plans that will consult everybody and his dog, including those involved in land use development. The ministry apparently is supposed to review and respond to these, but it does not really say exactly where the buck stops, who makes the decision. Where in the last analysis are the hard decisions going to be made in the administration of this system?

The system has been getting out of hand over the years in terms of the devolution on to regional offices and now on to community-based agencies, which have been given more and more responsibilities. One hundred per cent funding is not going to help them; 100 per cent of what? That does not mean it is going to be adequate. It means that they themselves will be backed up on to community resources, as they have been in the past, if current funding patterns persist. We will be left in exactly the same position as we were.

As for a system that is more accessible, as the Thomson report proposed we should have for the users of the system, it sounds equally convoluted and equally as difficult of access as it was in the past.

Again, I will reserve my final judgement on a very careful reading which must follow, which I have not had time to totally do this morning, but on the basis of initial perusal of chapters and recommendations I have some major problems with what the minister has before him.

Mrs Cunningham: It is with pleasure that we look at the report of the Provincial-Municipal Social Services Review Committee, and I would like to take the opportunity, on behalf of the Progressive Conservative caucus, to recognize the expertise of the membership of that committee. The minister should be particularly pleased with that kind of input, and of course in the long term we are hoping that the recommendations will be taken very seriously and will be dealt with, with prompt action.

The Association of Municipalities of Ontario has as its president Grant Hopcroft, who has kept me informed of the progress from time to time, and I have been particularly grateful for that kind of expertise as well.

I can say from the very beginning that what the minister has before him, as the committee members must recognize, is an extremely complicated document. As we take a look at recommendations around different responsibilities in cost-sharing, I am sure that there will have to be some tradeoffs made in the process, but I think the real concern of the municipalities, as they are involved in providing programs for family and children, is that they have some control over and responsibility for the administration of those programs, and at the same time that they decide where the real needs are and how much money they will be expected to spend.

I think that this document gives us a lot of insight into the problems and definitely some room for thought in the recommendations for very major change in both costing and responsibilities for program, and so I wish the minister and his staff the best as he tries to deal with this.

I would like to take this opportunity also to say very seriously that we all know that we began consultation in May 1987 on this responsibility of the province and the municipalities around the delivery of social services. We were blessed, I think, with a major review of the Social Assistance Review Committee that dovetails in.

We are waiting with some degree of anxiety for a new child care act and for the long-term care report of the minister. I hope that all of these things can happen very quickly, because I think the great criticism of the government would be that it has had wonderful advice, and here is an example of it, it has had great opportunity for input by some of the best people out there, as I describe, in the front line, and now it is the responsibility of the government to respond quickly. Six months is six months.

My recommendation would be to do it sooner, but that is not unusual for myself, because there are so many families and so many organizations right now in limbo and that have been for some amount of time.

At the same time, I will take this opportunity to say also that what prompted this review was a lack of communication with municipalities in the past around how programs were delivered and who should pay for them. This, I hope, is the beginning of a brand-new relationship with the municipalities and the agencies on behalf of the province of Ontario. I wish the minister the very best. I know he is in competent hands with the committee, and I expect a very speedy response to the 60 recommendations therein.

VISITOR

The Deputy Speaker: Before we proceed with oral questions, I would ask all members of the Legislative Assembly to recognize, in the Speaker’s gallery, the Deputy Prime Minister of the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, His Excellency Jan Carnogursky. Please join me in welcoming our guest.

ORAL QUESTIONS

TEMAGAMI DISTRICT RESOURCES

Mr B. Rae: My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources concerning the statement the minister apparently made outside a cabinet meeting to a reporter. “I don’t think there is any question in my mind that we are going to be proceeding with logging” is the quote attributed to the minister. The large headline, in case she has not seen it, reads, “Logging in Temagami Forest Will Go Ahead, Minister Says.”

I want to ask the minister why the government has apparently decided to proceed with logging in Temagami when she knows perfectly well that there has been no settlement or agreement reached with the native community, the Teme-Augama Anishnabai, and when she knows full well that their appeal is now before the Supreme Court of Canada, leave to appeal having been granted by the Supreme Court of Canada. Why would she be taking this kind of action without any degree of protection for the rights of the native people, which rights are supposed to be important to the government and the people of Ontario?

Hon Mrs McLeod: I would of course recognize the fact that logging has been going on in the Temagami area for some 100 years now. I indicated to the media this morning that as Minister of Natural Resources, recognizing that the crown timber licences in the Temagami area expired at the end of March, I have been involved over recent months in a process of seeing that the ministry is preparing new timber management plans to be able to continue the logging operations in the Temagami area.

I think all members of this House are aware, as is the public, that those timber management plans are in the development stage and that they do propose continuation of logging in the Temagami area. Those plans have been fully reviewed by the Temagami Advisory Council after extensive public consultation.

I also indicated to the media that it would be my intention, when the review of those plans is complete, to bring them before cabinet for consideration, but as Minister of Natural Resources my responsibility is to prepare the plans that would continue logging in the Temagami area.

Mr B. Rae: The plans put forward by the ministry allow for extensive clear-cutting in the Temagami area, which is directly contrary to the commitment we had from the Premier and from the minister. They permit extensive clear-cutting in so-called sensitive areas, in areas where land is so sensitive that there will never be regeneration. Only lichen will come back. No trees will come back in those areas. The minister is permitting clear-cutting in those areas. How can she justify proceeding on this kind of basis without a serious environmental assessment of what she has done and without any kind of agreement with the Teme-Augama Anishnabai band?

Hon Mrs McLeod: It becomes quite apparent that the honourable member, although he expresses considerable concern about the area, has not examined in detail the timber management plans which are being presented and which have been out for public consultation. I want to assure the honourable member that not only has there been extensive public consultation on those plans, but they have had a second review by the Temagami Advisory Council. The council, in order to ensure the independence of that review, employed two independent forestry consultants, who have also reviewed the plans.

I also want to assure the honourable member that there is a full recognition of the commitment the Premier made, which reflects the belief in the Ministry of Natural Resources that there must be full recognition of environmental values, including the protection of sensitive pine growth areas. He will find, if he looks at the timber management plan, that there is no clear-cutting of white pine stands where it is predominantly white pine; that there is only cutting of shelter wood in those areas.

I would remind the honourable member that, in addition, some 30 per cent of the pine is protected in 100,000 areas of park land and skyline reserve and that in fact the total number of timber management plans prepared for presentation to cabinet involve harvesting only some two per cent of the Temagami area forest.

Mr B. Rae: I am sure the minister knows full well and would recognize that the plans she has talked about have been changed even since they weren’t for public consultation. So if she says I have not seen the final plans, she is quite right: I have not seen the final plans. However, we have had a look at the plans which the ministry put out for public consultation. Those plans allow for significant clear-cuts, far more than are wise in terms of the future of the forest. They provide insignificant recognition of old growth. They provide inadequate protection of skyline reserve.

I can say to the minister that independent foresters who have studied the plans feel precisely as we do in terms of the protection in those three particular areas. But I want to come back to my central point to the minister: How can she, in all conscience, permit logging on this scale when there has yet to be an agreement with the band which claims the land in question?

Hon Mrs McLeod: It is unfortunate that an issue of this degree of complexity cannot be responded to in the fullness which it deserves, because the honourable member continues to raise questions about the judgement of the plans that are being brought forward by the Ministry of Natural Resources in spite of the fact that we have done our utmost to ensure there is not only full public consultation but independent review by a local advisory committee supported by two independent forestry consultants assisting in that review. I would be prepared to look at each of the concerns that have been raised and see how those concerns are addressed in the timber management plans.

But the other matter which the honourable member has referred to in each of his questions is the issue of how we can proceed with plans for harvesting when there is a concern on the part of the Teme-Augama band and a land claim issue before the courts. We are, of course, very cognizant of that and sensitive to the concerns of the Teme-Augama band. I would remind the honourable member and all members of this House that we are working in all forest management with what is a renewable resource and, managed well, it continues to be a renewable resource affording sustainable development.

We have encouraged, and will continue to encourage, the Teme-Augama band to participate fully in planning for the management of that resource, including becoming involved with us in co-management through the Temagami Advisory Council.

RENT REGULATION

Mr D. S. Cooke: In the absence of the Premier and the absence of the Minister of Housing, I would like to ask a question of the Deputy Premier. Again, the question is about another set of buildings owned by NHD Developments Inc, or the Sorbara family. The two projects in question are 65 units on Red Cedarway in North York, which is facing a 25.47 per cent increase in rent this year, already approved by the government’s rent review system, and 62 units at Flax Garden Way in North York, where they are going to get a 25.72 per cent increase in their rent, already approved by the government’s rent review system.

The tenants of these town house units brought in an engineer to look at some of the work being done in these buildings under the capital works

section of the minister’s rent review legislation. How can the minister allow a rent review system that rewards landlords who have neglected their buildings for 17 years and then come in with massive capital projects to bring them up to grade, with the result that the tenants are facing these 25 per cent rent increases, which are unaffordable for many of the tenants in these buildings?

Hon R. F. Nixon: I will bring the honourable member’s comments to the attention of the Minister of Housing.

Mr D. S. Cooke: Perhaps he will do that, but it is his government and his cabinet that have to come to grips with this major problem. Perhaps he would like to bring this aspect to the minister’s attention. Some of the tenants in these buildings, owned again by the Sorbara family, owe $1,300 to $1,500 in back rent. The position that the company is taking and the reason this back rent is owed is that it takes time to get through the ministry’s rent review system. The position of the company is that they either pay up immediately or they are evicted. Is that an appropriate way, in the Deputy Premier’s view, for landlords to deal with their tenants in this province?

Hon R. F. Nixon: The honourable member asked me whether I would like to bring that to the attention of the Minister of Housing. I am not sure it would give me any great pleasure, but I will.

Mr D. S. Cooke: The rent review system in this province is allowing landlords to take advantage of tenants in a massive way. The last Statistics Canada figures showed that 31 per cent of the tenants in Toronto are already paying over 30 per cent of their monthly income on rent. The minister’s rent review legislation is increasing that problem considerably. At the same time, his government has destroyed or ended the co-op and nonprofit housing program in this province. Where are people like this supposed to live if they are not going to get protection for their rents with the government’s rent review legislation?

Hon R. F. Nixon: The honourable member has taken

part in the discussions of recent budgets and well knows that the financing put before the House has provided more than 30,000 new and properly financed spaces on a rent-geared-to-income basis and for limited-dividend housing; that we in this government, since we took office five years ago, have allocated a larger increase in funding to housing than to any other single responsibility that rests under this government.

The honourable member knows that even recent initiatives, including housing initiatives to the east of Toronto at Seaton and elsewhere, have been not only significant in their cost but clearly designed to alleviate housing problems that he describes. Frankly, in the last five years the situation has improved markedly, and I think the honourable member’s fears are somewhat exaggerated.

HOSPITAL FINANCING

Mr Eves: I have a question of the Minister of Health. The minister will undoubtedly be aware of the announcement made by Toronto General Hospital that to balance its budget for this fiscal year it sees the necessity of closing another 96 beds in addition to the 154 it has already had to close to balance its budget. I was just wondering how this can be possible in light of what the minister and the Treasurer pronounced as a grandiose announcement of an 8.7 per cent increase in hospital funding on 29 November 1989.

Hon Mrs Caplan: Each year at this time, hospitals begin to develop their budget plans. There has been an allocation, as the member knows, of over half a billion dollars for the hospitals in this province. I know that there have been some concerns expressed, in light of the Wilson budget, that it would have an impact on hospitals. I am pleased to tell the member opposite that the commitment made by this government stands and that as hospitals develop their plans, they will see that hospital services will be maintained in this province.

Mr Eves: That response is almost sick. On 29 November 1989 it was pointed out by several members of this Legislature and the Ontario Hospital Association that hospitals required, if they are going to not only finance for inflation to provide a minimum level of care in this province but also cover provincial government self-imposed costs, such as pay equity, employers’ health tax and increased workers’ compensation payments, they need an absolute minimum increase of 11 per cent. The minister gave them 8.7 per cent. She has had over four months to contemplate that.

What steps is she taking to make sure that this absolute minimum level which the Ontario Hospital Association says it needs to maintain minimum standards of health care in this province will be achieved?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I met with the OHA just last week and we discussed the fact that hospital funding formulas are in a state of transition and that in fact they are always, at the best of times, very complex.

There are a number of components of the hospital funding formula. One is the overall base increase. Then there is the component for growth, which acknowledges increased acuity in the hospital. A third component is the hospital incentive fund, which encourages hospitals to shift and realign services from those which can be provided on an inpatient basis to those on an outpatient basis. Another is the transitional formula funding for equity, which I am pleased to inform the member opposite is increasing from some $25 million last year to $40 million this year, up 60 per cent. I can say that with all of these different components, we also include additional resources for life support.

As the hospitals develop their budget plans, I know they will work in co-operation with the ministry area teams so we can ensure that appropriate service levels are available to the people of this province.

Mr Eves: The hospitals have been trying to get their act together for the last four months, which is more than I can say for the minister.

In this submission that the Ontario Hospital Association made to the standing committee on finance and economic affairs in January of this year, the Ontario Hospital Association has pointed out again to this government that it needs at the very least an extra $138 million this year to maintain hospital services at existing levels. By the OHA’s submission, $138 million is three per cent of combined hospital payrolls, or the equivalent of 3,900 full-time employees at hospitals. It is also the equivalent of 6,634 acute care patients who will not get care in this province this year if the minister does not react to what they have been telling her for over four months.

The time has come and gone. This is not an April fool’s joke. On 1 April the minister should have had her act together. When is she going to get it together?

Hon Mrs Caplan: As always, the member is wrong. I can tell him that in light of the Wilson budget, there was some delay in the letter of transmittal. I explained that to the Ontario Hospital Association. They were very understanding. There was a lot of concern because of the cut in the federal transfer payment, but our commitment stands firm. In fact, we are hoping to have the letter of transmittal out to the hospitals this week as they begin their planning and budgetary cycle.

Mr Brandt: My question as well is to the Minister of Health. Sadly, when one cuts through all the rhetoric the minister just exchanged with my colleague, what has happened is that she is shrinking the hospital system and cutting back beds. The fact of the matter is that as a result of imposed costs which she has passed on to hospitals, not dissimilar to what we talked about in this House yesterday as it relates to children’s services, with the employer health levy and pay equity there are very substantial additional costs that hospitals have absolutely no control over whatsoever.

The minister made the decision; she passed on those costs. Could she tell us what the total amount to hospitals is for the employer health levy, as well as pay equity, and does she intend to fund those two additional responsibilities which she has imposed on the hospital system?

Hon Mrs Caplan: As the member opposite knows, the Treasurer announced an allocation for the hospitals that is very significant, some $500 million. I want to assure him that no hospital budget will be cut. Every hospital will receive an increase. The funding formula, as I explained to his colleague, is a little complex. We are working on the kind of transitional funding formula that will restore equity and fairness and ensure that all hospitals are fairly and appropriately funded in this province.

Mr Brandt: The minister throws around figures like $500 million and $1 billion that are totally meaningless to people who cannot find a bed in a hospital. The reality is that the minister has closed down 2,000 hospital beds in this province. She made a promise for an increase of 4,400 hospital beds.

I said to the minister back in 1988 at the time she introduced some of these plans that pay equity alone, over a four- to five-year period, was going to cost the hospitals in this province some $115 million. I stand before her now and tell her that my original estimates were below what I anticipated they were going to be. Where is that $115 million and more going to come from so that we can maintain the kind of hospital system and the kind of health system we had before 1985?

Hon Mrs Caplan: The leader of the third party could not be more incorrect in his assumptions. I would say to him that the ministry has not yet reviewed any of the budgetary plans that are being developed by the hospitals. His colleague mentioned the Toronto Hospital. In fact, there are encouraging signs that hospitals are providing services in alternative ways. We heard from the hospital, for example, that inpatient admissions are reduced and that there has been an increase in outpatient and ambulatory care.

As more hospitals develop and strengthen ambulatory services to reflect the ministry’s priorities, I think we can expect to see some realignment of resources from inpatient to outpatient care. What we are interested in is the delivery of appropriate services to the people of this province and in taking advantage of new technologies that allow those services to be provided in alternative ways, whether that is in the hospital, in a community setting, in an ambulatory centre or at home.

Mr Brandt: It is interesting when you are in opposition and you raise these questions. I guess it is an easy charge to make that we are always wrong and our facts are out of place or we have not researched the question adequately. Let me tell the minister what the Ontario Hospital --

Hon Mr Scott: Notwithstanding your staff.

Mr Brandt: If I might speak over the interjections of the Attorney General, who has an opinion on every ministry in the entire government --

Hon Mr Scott: I have no opinion of any ministry, but I have an opinion of you.

Mr Brandt: He has a lot of opinions, and maybe he should keep some of them to himself.

I want to give the minister the opinion of the Ontario Hospital Association as it relates to this question. Tell them that they are wrong too. They say: “The inpatient hospital system is being deliberately downsized. The pressure will continue on hospitals to close beds and to reduce inpatient services.” That is not me saying that. That is a direct quote as a result of the meeting that the minister had a week ago when she would not meet the commitments to fund some of the programs that she has shafted the hospitals with. What is she going to do about it?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I had a very positive meeting with the Ontario Hospital Association, which is working very closely with us in developing a new funding formula.

I would say to the member as well that we believe very strongly that in the adjustments of the new funding formula, the Ontario Hospital Association and all the hospitals will work closely with the area teams to ensure that we take advantage of the new technologies that allow us to provide services on an outpatient and ambulatory basis. We are seeing huge increases in those kinds of services across the province, and that is very appropriate.

If the people of this province need to have services that are provided on an inpatient basis, those will be provided, but if those services can be provided on an outpatient or ambulatory basis or at a community independent health facility, for example, we can take advantage of that through the new act. As well, there are opportunities to provide services at home.

I will restate that the commitment of this government stands firm and that there will be over $500 million available to the hospitals of this province in this fiscal year, bringing the total to over $6.5 billion in funding for the hospitals of this province.

GOODS AND SERVICES TAX

Mr Laughren: I have a question for the Treasurer concerning some of his recent meanderings on the collection of the goods and services tax.

This morning the Globe and Mail reported: “The province is willing to assist the federal government by collecting the portion of the GST that would be levied at the point of retail sale, where the provincial tax is already imposed, Mr Nixon said.”

The Financial Post on 27 March said: “Ontario will not help the federal government collect its proposed goods and services tax, Provincial Treasurer Robert Nixon said.”

In the Toronto Star on 9 January the Treasurer said: “The Ontario government is willing to help collect some, but not all, of the federal goods and services tax.”

The London Free Press on 8 January 1990 said: “Ontario still doesn’t support the controversial goods and services tax but is willing to collect it from retailers for the federal government, Provincial Treasurer Robert Nixon says.”

Could the Treasurer tell us which one of those positions he is leaning towards today?

Hon R. F. Nixon: They are all correct and, as the honourable member understood, they all say the same thing.

Mr Laughren: I can only ask the Treasurer once again if he agrees that both of these statements are correct: “Ontario will not help the federal government collect its proposed goods and services tax” and “The province is willing to assist the federal government by collecting the portion of the GST that would be levied at the point of retail sale.”

The Treasurer is saying on one hand he is not going to help them collect it. On the other hand he is saying he is going to collect it. Would the Treasurer please tell us what he does intend to do and, given all these conflicting statements that the Treasurer makes, tell us why the public in Ontario should believe that he has no intention of expanding the retail sales tax base in the province?

Hon R. F. Nixon: Because I said so, I guess.

I will tell the member the answer is perfectly legitimate and logical. We said we would be glad to collect it at the point of sale, as we collect our own, and pass it on, but we have no intention of going out into the broader base of collecting services, like dry cleaning and haircuts. We are not going to do that. We are not interested in applying the value added intricacies that Mr Wilson is so fond of, but we would be prepared to collect it at the point of sale.

Mr Wildman: A little of this and a little of that.

Hon R. F. Nixon: Just a minute.

The federal government said, “Thanks a lot, but no thanks.” Therefore, we are not collecting the tax. What could be clearer or more elementary?

Mr Jackson: I can hardly wait for an election, when we will get another version.

POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr Jackson: My question is for the Minister of Colleges and Universities. Colleges and universities were allocated an eight per cent increase in transfer payments, I believe back in November, but that was barely enough to cover the recent six per cent wage settlement for our community college workers and the government’s new two per cent employer health tax. Nothing, quite frankly, is being left over to pay for pay equity, for inflation, for new equipment, instructional supplies, building maintenance and other operating costs.

Based on this transfer payment, colleges are forced to make difficult choices. They can either cut programs and jeopardize the quality and access to post-secondary education or they can run deficits. What is the minister prepared to do to address this situation of program cuts?

Hon Mr Conway: The honourable member’s question covers a number of issues. Let me say that on the question of this government’s support of the post-secondary sector, I think it is both true and fair to observe that in the period of time that it has been our responsibility to administer the affairs of the province, we have been very generous with both the colleges and the universities.

To be sure, there is always more demand than there is supply of public dollars, but in the transfer announcements of last November I indicated an eight per cent increase to both colleges and universities, to say nothing of our support in areas like student assistance and on the capital account. I recognize that there continues to be more demand and more pressure.

We will respond as best we can, but I think when one looks at what this administration has done, as compared to what a previous administration did or did not do, particularly on things like capital and on operating, I am not at all embarrassed by our record vis-à-vis the record of the honourable member’s party.

Mr Jackson: The most generous thing from this government has been announcements; it has not been the actual funding. Yesterday’s announcement of $4 million was not covered by any major newspaper in this province, because they recognized it for what it was, a $4-million emergency Band-Aid to community colleges -- $4 million, that was all that was given.

The Premier yesterday in the House said he was committed to technical education but, based on his level of commitment in Ontario, Humber College is cutting $3 million worth of programs, particularly technical education courses; Fanshawe College is anticipating a $3.5-million deficit; Mohawk College, a deficit of nearly $1 million, and it has cut a major program and 41 staff positions; Niagara College, nearly a $1-million deficit.

It is obvious from the minister’s answer that his government is committed to political announcements, but it is not committed to financing the best educational outcomes for post-secondary students in this province. My question is simply this: In order to ensure that our graduates remain competitive throughout the decade of the 1990s, that they are globally competitive, will this government provide target funding to ensure program protection for these vital technical education programs that are so vital to Ontario’s future? Will the minister provide target funding to protect these programs?

Hon Mr Conway: Let me make two points. First, the government of Ontario in both its post-secondary and its secondary funding supports has encouraged a number of very creative and important new initiatives in the area, for example, of the honourable member’s interest of technical education. I would not want to hold out yesterday’s announcement as the alpha and the omega of our commitment, because clearly we have done a lot more than just the fund that I mentioned yesterday.

We are, as the honourable member for Burlington South might want to know, embarking upon a very substantial renewal of technological studies at the secondary area where our commitment is, I expect, in excess of some $60 million on the capital account alone.

Mr Jackson: What you are saying is all Greek to me. You are the one who is bringing in the Greek alphabet, the alpha and the omega. Can’t you be more specific?

Hon Mr Conway: I want to make one other point. If my friend from Burlington would stop barracking long enough to let me make this point, I would appreciate that parliamentary courtesy. I know he would want me to observe that under our system of management of the college sector, over the past five years our operating grants have increased by over $240 million at a time when enrolments have been generally very stable.

I would also point out that we expect that boards of governors and management teams, whether they are at Humber College or Cambrian College or elsewhere, are going to manage. That is going to mean making decisions, making adjustments and, unlike the Tories who would have the colleges and the rest of the world sit for ever in a comfortable pew of the status quo, we as Liberals are much more dynamic. We anticipate and encourage change and reform, and we expect good managers at the colleges and elsewhere to do their duty and to ensure that those institutions change to meet emerging needs.

ONTARIO HOME OWNERSHIP SAVINGS PLAN

Ms Oddie Munro: My question is to the Minister of Revenue. Bill 105, dealing with amendments to the Ontario Home Ownership Savings Plan Act, 1988, is before the House for second reading. The amendments, which I support, respond to some of the difficulties the first-time purchaser has experienced in utilizing the plan.

I have been recently informed of a first-time home buyer in my riding who did not take advantage of the OHOSP and was therefore unable to apply for land transfer tax rebate. The purchased home was in the range of $75,000 to $135,000, and the buyer and his family clearly represent the typical first-time home purchaser in need of financial assistance as envisaged by the act.

Could the minister clarify the rules and specifically the timing which apply to the purchase of an OHOSP, the actual purchase of a home and the application for land transfer tax rebate for that first-time purchaser?

Hon Mr Mancini: I want to thank the member for the question. I am sure many members are interested in the Ontario home ownership savings plan. I think honourable members should know that this plan has already assisted over 24,000 Ontario residents. There are over 79,000 Ontario home ownership plans and accounts open so far. There have been proposed amendments, as my honourable colleague has mentioned, in Bill 105, which is before the House.

It is very clear that people with an annual income of less than $40,000 and couples with a combined income of $80,000 and less can qualify and can open up an account. All they have to do is visit their bank or a local trust company office. After purchasing their home, the planholders notify the institution and the necessary paperwork is done and the money is released. Also, this allows the people who have opened the plan to then receive a rebate on the land transfer tax. It is a very generous program indeed.

Ms Oddie Munro: That information is helpful to me and, I am sure, to potential first-time home buyers. As I understand it then, you purchase the OHOSP and, before the closing of the purchase, you must make application for the land transfer tax rebate. It seems to me that communication is important to the success of the plan, and access to the land tax rebate. I am wondering what the ministry’s plan is to communicate the information and the procedures to the players, and who those players are.

Hon Mr Mancini: Of course, the matter obtains tremendous publicity during budget time when matters are announced by the Treasurer, as was the case. We also have a very extensive communications plan with banks and the institutions that we work with. We have also made available information to MPPs’ constituency offices and, given the concern that the honourable member has about our communications plan, I will review the plan to decide whether or not it meets the needs of the Ontario population.

SOCIAL SERVICES

Mr Allen: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services. I want to take him back to the provincial-municipal social services review. First, I want to say that I think the preparation of this plan and the recommendations in it are going to be a considerable disappointment to those who prepared the Transitions document and to the social service consumers who wanted a much simpler, much more straightforward system of administration, finance and delivery in the province.

The report proposes a number of recommendations, but there are riddled through them so many points of indecision; there are so many elements of consultation that still have to be pursued. There is a continued move in the direction of a municipal devolution and community-based service organizations as the providers of services. The fundamental question of this document that the Social Assistance Review Committee prepared has to be asked all over again: Under this scheme that is proposed, what is to prevent the same old problem of inconsistent delivery of social services across the province?

That is what the province has suffered from so much in the past and that was the point of this document, to try to relieve that problem.

Hon Mr Beer: I want to underline again that the report is now out and will be consulted on extensively with AMO as well as with other groups. I would urge my honourable friend to perhaps hold up his judgement in terms of the recommendations and the kind of administrative structure that may flow from them.

I think it is important to underline that the group that came together from both the municipal and provincial sectors tried very hard to come up with something that it felt would simplify the system and make it one that would be more responsible in a fiscal way and in terms of who is delivering the particular services. They were aware of the SARC report, and certainly for us as a government there are a number of documents here that become very important and critical as we look at implementing the recommendations of this report.

I can say to my honourable friend that we are going to look very, very carefully at this report and at the recommendations that come in from our partners in the social services field before enacting specific changes. We certainly do not intend to make it more complex.

Mr Allen: As I look at what other provinces have done over the course of the last two decades in terms of the administration and funding of social services, they have almost universally, from Newfoundland to Quebec to British Columbia, adopted responsibility as provincial governments both for funding and delivery of services. Whether they were right or wrong, at least they made a decision; they bit the bullet. They have an integrated system and they know where the buck stops. As I look at this report, I really cannot yet get a sense of where the buck stops. Where is the buck going to stop if one follows the model that is proposed in this particular document?

Hon Mr Beer: Again I want to underline that, whatever the experience in other provinces or other jurisdictions, it has been the experience in Ontario to go forward in social services with a partnership, and that partnership has involved the province, the municipalities and the various community-based agencies.

My sense is that in the province itself there is a feeling that we want to continue with those partners but we want to make it more accountable and, indeed, we want to be able to see where the buck does stop. I think that is an integral part of the task that they had and, as we go forward with the discussions around the report, certainly at the end of the day we want to come up with something that is more accountable.

The province, and particularly this ministry, clearly has the major overall responsibility in terms of the development of social services. But we want to do that in conjunction with our partners.

LIQUOR STORE HOURS

Mr Runciman: My question is for the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. I am sure he is aware that the government-run liquor stores are contemplating severe cuts, something in the order of $13 million. Rumours are circulating throughout the province that some of these cuts could impact on store hours in a variety of municipalities across the province. I wonder if the minister would give his views in respect to this particular proposal. Does he agree with the government-run monopoly restricting access for consumers?

Hon Mr Sorbara: Let me assure my friend the member for Leeds-Grenville that he would not like a system where the political view of store hours is the view that should prevail. What the Liquor Control Board of Ontario has been doing and will continue to do is to organize the merchandising of wine, spirits and beer right around the province under its monopoly in a way that responds to consumers’ preferences.

For example, if a store is located in a shopping complex that is open from nine in the morning until nine in the evening, then the policy of the liquor board is to keep the store open during those hours. But if there are other areas where there is no business after six o’clock, then it is foolish, both in a business sense and in any other sense, to keep the store open.

What my friend the member for Leeds-Grenville should understand is that there has been a significant decrease over the past 10 years in levels of absolute consumption of alcohol. What the board is doing right now is simply responding to that decrease consistent with its obligation to market in an effective way consistent with consumer needs.

Mr Runciman: I do not think reducing store hours is adequately responding to consumer preferences. When we talk about decreases in sales, I think we have to look at the fact that this government, in less than five years in office, has increased booze taxes by around 40 per cent, and that is having quite an impact on consumer preferences.

I want to talk about tourism. We had an announcement that US travel has declined by 5.2 per cent, and this is having an impact on that area as well. Has the minister assessed that? Talking about consumer access, I think there is an obligation upon the member as the minister responsible when he is talking about a government-run monopoly to ensure that all of these areas that could be impacted very negatively do not have this kind of access restricted. Is the minister prepared to take a position on that? I do not hear it from him today. Are these store hours going to be reduced? If they are, is he supporting that initiative?

Hon Mr Sorbara: My friend the member for Leeds-Grenville obviously does not have any position at all on anything, for goodness’ sake. He stands up often in this House and complains about a variety of things associated with alcohol and then criticizes us for raising taxes and complains about the fact that consumption is down.

I want to tell him not to be so naïve as to be the victim of rumours about the reduction of store hours. It simply is not the case. It simply is silly for him to suggest that there is some overall strategy to reduce access. I invite him to go to one or two of our stores anywhere in the province and see that our stores have kept up while he has not kept up.

LAND REGISTRATION

Mr Tatham: My question is for the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. Last fall the minister visited Oxford to see for himself the amazing potential of the province of Ontario land registration and information system, otherwise known as Polaris, a working model of which is up and running in Oxford. At that time the minister was new to the Consumer and Commercial Relations portfolio and to the concept of Polaris, but I believe it is safe to say that during his visit he was impressed with the potential of this 100 per cent Ontario homegrown technology.

With that in mind, what has the minister done about encouraging the development of this technology in full and how long will it be before the people of this province will be able to access the information in Polaris on line?

Hon Mr Sorbara: The member for Oxford has kept up with the times; he does not even have to visit one of our liquor stores in order to do that,

whereas that may not be the case with my friend who asked the previous question.

It is a very good question. My friend the member for Oxford has let the cat out of the bag. He was my tour guide, and I did have a marvellous tour of the advanced technologies that are now operating in the county of Woodstock. Of course we are talking about the Polaris technology, information-based technologies.

Interjections.

Hon Mr Sorbara: The Tories do not want to listen to this, and it is unfortunate. They have their heads buried in the sand.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Hon Mr Sorbara: In any event, my friend the member for Oxford gave me a delightful tour. I want to tell him that we are now in the very final stages of negotiations with the two consortia that submitted proposals to join in a strategic alliance with the government for the development of not only the Polaris system but a broader data utility that will revolutionize the registration system in this province. If all goes well, I should have an announcement to be made on that within a month or so.

Mr Tatham: I appreciate that, but our technology has been functioning in Oxford for some time, and I think the minister can understand the interest of the people, particularly people like Liz Ottaway in the county office. They want to know exactly when we are going to have the technology in place. When does the minister anticipate that a province-wide system will be in operation? Furthermore, will the municipalities be guaranteed access to this system, or will it be strictly a provincial government matter?

Hon Mr Sorbara: There is a very long answer to the questions raised by my friend the member for Oxford. Let me try to summarize very briefly. First of all, some of those technologies are already being implemented by the ministry in the absence of having reached a strategic alliance with a private sector partner. For example, in North York we have almost completed the work of going from a paper-based registration system to a data-based, digitally based electronic system.

Once we have reached an agreement with a private sector partner, we think that we will speed up almost by a factor of 100 per cent the implementation of Polaris around the province, although it would be difficult to say with any certainty when a province-wide system will be in place. But if all goes well, we will be moving rapidly into that technology in the very near future.

COURT FACILITIES

Mr Kormos: I have a question for the Attorney General. The Niagara Falls provincial courthouse, as the Attorney General knows, was shut down by virtue of an order from the Ministry of Labour under the Occupational Health and Safety Act. That courthouse, although a satellite courthouse in the most technical sense, had courtrooms in it which held criminal matters and trials, remands, first appearances and pleas five days a week. Indeed, the docket for first appearances this Thursday, tomorrow, is some six pages long, approximately 100 accused persons. They are being expected to attend at the St Catharines courthouse.

Members of the bar are particularly concerned, and members of the public should be concerned, about possible loss of jurisdiction. The people in the community, members of the bar and persons involved in the court system in one way or another very much want to know what the Attorney General’s plans are with respect to the Niagara Falls provincial courthouse.

Hon Mr Scott: I do not think the honourable member’s constituents need concern themselves about loss of jurisdiction. There are in the Niagara area three courthouses that form a triangle, in Welland, St Catharines and Niagara Falls. They are hardly more than 20 miles apart. The work order instituted against the Niagara Falls courthouse by the Ministry of Labour has precluded the court from being used with respect to in-custody offences. The work is proceeding. I understand the Ministry of Government Services people who are in charge of the work met with the owners of the building yesterday.

The work is proceeding and we hope that the cases can be conducted in this municipally owned facility as soon as possible.

Mr Kormos: The shutdown of that courthouse raises once again the need for improved courthouse facilities in Niagara South. The Attorney General knows that the city of Welland has gone to great lengths to prepare a proposal with respect to the old county courthouse to make it a facility that can accommodate all the offices and court buildings, as compared to being scattered throughout the city. The minister or his staff have seen those plans.

Surely the city of Welland, in fairness, should be told by the Attorney General whether he is going to accept that proposal or whether indeed he is looking at alternatives to the renovation of the district courthouse or the possibility of new facilities. The city, again in fairness, should be told what the Attorney General’s plans are with respect to that facility, whether it is doing to accept a renovated building or whether it is going to look for other land and where that land is going to be.

Hon Mr Scott: The honourable member of course represents his constituents in Welland well. There are people in Welland who think a courthouse should be expanded or a new one created there and the satellite court in Niagara Falls closed down so that the Welland project can be fed, and the honourable member signifies that this is his view.

I am not sure that is the right view. I think it is important that the people of Niagara Falls should, if at all possible, and it is possible, have courtroom facilities in their community, even if in that fashion we cannot advance fully the views of the people of the city of Welland who would like all the court facilities in their community so they could be taken out of Niagara Falls.

The view of this government is that both Welland and Niagara Falls are substantial, important communities and that there is a public obligation to provide court facilities in both communities. That we are doing. When the repairs that the Ministry of Government Services has undertaken are completed in this rental building owned by the city in Niagara Falls, court will continue there as usual.

ORILLIA SOLDIERS’ MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

Mr McLean: My question is for the Minister of Health. Yesterday in the House the member for Durham-York gave a great statement with regard to the Markham Stouffville Hospital -- the $74 million in funding, with $40 million plus from the province and $7 million from the community. On 30 July 1987 the former minister came to Orillia and made a great announcement with regard to $30 million for the Orillia Soldiers’ Memorial Hospital there.

The minister has been signing a lot of letters there today, and I would like to know if one of those letters is for approval of that, or when does she think she would be able to satisfy the hospital board?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I recently announced a framework for capital planning that I believe will be of assistance to the hospitals and all the regions, the district health councils, as they move forward to look at meeting the needs of the people of the province.

There are a number of components of the capital framework. We will be supporting as a priority those that support innovative, alternative ways of providing services, shifting from inpatient to outpatient and ambulatory in line with the opportunities that new technologies permit. Infrastructure maintenance and renewal is a major priority in the province and we believe that can all be achieved within the existing operating budgets. We know as well that demographics are extremely important; so we are looking at rapid growth areas as well as ensuring appropriate services for our aging population, knowing they want to be independent for as long as possible.

The last component of the capital framework will ensure that we strengthen those areas of specialty care. The member is very aware of them. He knows that on a regional basis across the province all the district health councils and the hospitals are working very hard to bring their projects in line with the capital framework, and I am pleased to tell him that much work is ongoing.

Mr McLean: I have heard most of that answer before and I want to reaffirm the position from the community with regard to the $6 million plus that has been raised there through the efforts of many organizations. The district health council and most of those agencies have agreed with what is taking place there and I think it is up to the minister to say to the community, “Yes, we will allow you to proceed.” Why will she not allow them to proceed?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I have been really pleased with the amount of support we have had for the capital framework that was announced. In fact, right across this province district health councils and hospitals are working together in a partnership planning approach. The member knows that many of the plans across the province will be adjusted to see how they align with the new capital framework. I know that in Simcoe county the district health council and Ministry of Health officials are meeting to discuss the new capital planning framework and the implications for Simcoe county.

TEACHERS’ LABOUR DISPUTE

Mr McGuigan: I have a question for the Minister of Education. From conversations I have had with the minister, I know he is aware of the teachers’ strike in the secondary school panel of the Essex County Roman Catholic Separate School Board. I wonder if the minister would provide the House and the parents and students with a clear understanding of his position in this matter.

Hon Mr Conway: I appreciate the honourable member’s question and his interest in the situation in his home county. I can assure him and the members of the House that I share his concern in bringing this dispute to a speedy resolution but, as I have said on previous occasions and I would repeat now, I believe very strongly in the collective bargaining process. I believe further that it is quite within the power of both parties to resolve this.

The Education Relations Commission monitors the situation. A mediator from the Education Relations Commission has been working with the parties. He was with the parties over the weekend. It is my understanding that some progress was made. The mediator stands by ready and willing to assist in any further way, and I am very confident that both parties working with the commission will accept their responsibilities and resolve this dispute very soon in the best interests of the students of Essex county.

Mr McGuigan: I share the minister’s thoughts and hopes that this will be settled, but the parents and teachers are quite concerned. I wonder at what point the minister would be prepared to intervene in this strike.

Hon Mr Conway: One of the responsibilities that falls to the Education Relations Commission under Bill 100 is the determination of jeopardy. It is the responsibility of the commission and no one else to make a finding of when, in its considered opinion, the educational programs of the students involved in this kind of dispute are in jeopardy. To date the commission has not made any such finding of jeopardy.

GASOLINE PRICES

Mr Morin-Strom: I have a question for the Treasurer. The Treasurer is aware that many Ontario residents of border communities are regularly purchasing their gasoline in the United States. With gasoline prices now at record levels in communities such as Sault Ste Marie, gasoline sales revenues at local service stations have declined by 40 to 50 per cent over recent years.

Given that most of this price difference is due to the high gasoline taxes in the province, will the Treasurer be taking corrective action at least for border communities?

Hon R. F. Nixon: On 11 March the gasoline price in Sault Ste Marie, I am told, was 54.8 cents. In Ottawa it was 56 cents. At Earl’s Shell Service it was 48.9 cents. Having said that, I would say that we are not contemplating any regional reduction in gasoline taxation.

Mr Morin-Strom: The minister’s prices are a bit out of date, but even at that level they are at least 50 per cent higher than the price of gasoline in Sault Ste Marie, Michigan, in this example. The minister knows that in Quebec they have implemented a border program that includes buffer zones with phased-in gasoline tax levels that enable their gasoline stations to compete on a fair and equitable basis with those outside Quebec.

In Sault Ste Marie, considerable amounts of business have left Ontario and have gone to Michigan, with sales of other products as well, as a result of the difference in gasoline prices. Will the minister take some kind of action to ensure that we have some incentive to keep consumers in our own Ontario businesses?

Hon R. F. Nixon: I certainly sympathize with the problems that the honourable member’s constituents have, particularly right on the border. It is difficult to persuade them, as I try to do when my friends talk about the gasoline prices in Buffalo, that if they want to drive from Buffalo to the state capital in Albany there is a toll on the road of about $11, or if I warn them to be sure not to get sick over there and have to pay their own medical bills, because we have to support a wide variety of very progressive programs here that are paid for through public dollars.

Then the last I always say to them is that Mr Wilson, the Progressive Conservative Minister of Finance for Canada, extracts a larger tax per litre in Ontario than the province of Ontario does and he does not build a mile of road. He takes the money and uses it for God knows what, because his deficit this year went up by $2 billion.

MARMORA ARENA

Mr Pollock: I have a question for the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. The people of Marmora and area believed that an announcement for the funding for their new arena was going to take place around 1 April. They have heard nothing yet. When are they going to get that funding they are entitled to?

Hon Mr Black: I am aware of the fact that the member for Hastings-Peterborough has real concern about the welfare of his community and I know that he keeps in touch with all of his constituents. I know that he has been expressing within his riding the need for an arena in Marmora. I want him to know that when we get to the point where we are ready to approve all of our capital expenditure, we will be making announcements about all of those across this province.

Mr Pollock: When?

Hon Mr Black: I am sure the member is aware of the fact that one has to go through the process of evaluating all the applications and ensuring that the applications this government funds are sound. We want to be sure that when we fund arenas there is a capability within the community to operate those arenas and provide sound programs. So when we have completed our determination we will make an announcement.

PETITIONS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Pouliot: I have a petition signed by 2,262 people addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, and they are saying: “We do not want our rights to adequate automobile accident compensation taken away. We want the Ontario government to know that we oppose the proposed Ontario motorist protection plan.”

Those people are from Thunder Bay. They are tired. They are fed up with being ripped off.

CAPITAL FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS

Mrs Marland: I have a petition to the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor of the province of Ontario. This petition is from the parents and students of St James School in Mississauga, a school in the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board.

The concern of the parents and children of this school is the lack of funding by the current Liberal government in terms of the older schools within the region of Peel. This petition is respectfully submitted, and the petitioners are hoping that as a result of the work they have done in collecting these names, once and for all the older schools that have been neglected, St James being an example, will have their problems remedied and they will have the kind of facilities that are now required under the Ministry of Education’s mandated OSIS programs. At the moment this school cannot provide those programs because it simply does not have the facilities needed; for example, a gymnasium.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Wildman: I have a petition signed by three residents of Ontario. It is quite lengthy, so under the new rules I will summarize. I will not read all the whereases.

The petition deals with Bill 68 and the government’s insurance plan. It expresses the view that Bill 68 does not give effect to the Premier’s “promise in 1987 that he had a very specific plan to reduce auto insurance premium rates,” and points out that “once this legislation is passed...auto insurance premiums will climb by as much as 50 per cent, according to the Minister of Financial Institutions.”

It goes on to point out that this legislation will provide enormous taxpayer subsidies to private corporations in the auto insurance industry, “costing the Ontario taxpayer at least $141 million in the first year alone.” It also points out that this “will create a billion-dollar payday for the auto insurance industry, at the expense of taxpayers, drivers, and innocent injured victims; these people will be forced to pay more and they will get less.”

I think it is a most reasonable petition and I support it completely.

Mr Philip: I have a petition from the customers of Frank Bauco Auto Service on Albion Road in Rexdale. These are the same people who object to the $90 licence plates for the greater Metropolitan Toronto area, but this petition is on a different topic. It says:

“To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“Whereas the Peterson Liberal government has introduced auto insurance legislation (Bill 68) which is directly contrary to its own studies;

“Whereas this legislation will result in higher taxes to cover $140 million handed back to the insurance companies by the Liberal government;

“Whereas the legislation will result in more accident victims being unable to claim for pain, suffering and other losses;

“Whereas this legislation will result in the innocent victim being treated no better than the negligent driver responsible for the injuries and removes the right for victims to seek compensation from negligent and dangerous drivers;

“We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to express to the Liberal government our great disapproval at its policies concerning automobile insurance and request that Bill 68 be withdrawn.”

I have signed the petition.

CAPITAL FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS

Mrs Marland: I have a petition to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor and the government of Ontario, which reads as follows: “I am a parent of children who attend St Francis of Assisi school in Mississauga and wish to express my concern for the accommodation crisis we are presently facing in the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board.

“The additional costs the board must incur due to the insufficient provincial allocation of funds affects us all. In spite of inflation, our schools are operating with less disposable funding, largely due to bank financing charges and additional busing costs.

“Our students at St Francis could have more educational equipment should the school have more flexibility with their operating budget. Also, St Francis of Assisi is a 20-year-old school and could use some upgrades to bring it up to today’s standards.

“I would respectfully suggest this board needs your immediate attention for our teachers to maintain their quality instruction. I do not expect a reply to my petition. However, I trust my comments will be reflected in the capital allocation given to the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board.”

The Deputy Speaker: Before we proceed with the next petition, the Chair reminds members to make a résumé of the petition as opposed to reading it all, and I am sure all members will remember that from day to day.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Ms Bryden: I have the honour to present a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, and indirectly also to the Lieutenant Governor in Council. It is signed by six people from widely separated areas in the province, including Brampton, Toronto, my own riding and other people in Metro Toronto.

Briefly it says, “Bill 68 is legislation that makes tragic changes to the rights of innocent, injured motor vehicle accident victims.” It also says further on that “this insurance legislation will deprive innocent injured victims of at least $823 million in compensation that will be denied them.” It says also that “this insurance legislation will create a billion-dollar payday for the auto insurance industry, at the expense of taxpayers, drivers, and innocent injured victims; these people will be forced to pay more and they will get less.”

There are more points in the petition, but they have been included in earlier petitions. I would like to submit this to the Legislative Assembly and I will sign it myself.

CAPITAL FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS

Mrs Marland: Mr Speaker, I am heeding your advice about not reading the content of the petition. I will tell you simply that this is an additional petition from St Francis of Assisi School in Mississauga. We have a large number of these letters as part of the petition from parents and children within that school community, and their concerns are very real and they hope to be heeded by the current government.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Laughren: I have a petition which opposes Bill 68, the government’s auto insurance bill. I will not read it. Basically, the petition says that the bill is a piece of junk and should not be proceeded with. I support that. It does not call for public auto insurance, which I wish it did. Nevertheless, it is very clearly in opposition to the government’s bill.

Mr Morin-Strom: I have another petition with regard to the Ontario motorist protection plan, and it is addressed to the Legislative Assembly of the province of Ontario. I will not read all the whereases, but I will read the final point of it.

“We respectfully request that the Legislature consider substantial amendment of or complete rejection of the Ontario motorist protection plan as presently proposed. We further respectfully request that a plan be devised more nearly in accordance with the results of the independent studies undertaken at the request of the government.”

This petition has been signed by 12 residents of the province of Ontario, and I have affixed my signature to it as well and hope that the government will take it into consideration.

Mr Mackenzie: I also have a petition signed by two residents of the city of Toronto objecting to Bill 68, and in

summary I simply say they do not like the way it is being jammed through, they do not like the broken promise that it implies on the part of the government, they do not like the kind of payoff to the insurance industry.

It ends up by saying: “We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

“That Peterson and his Liberal government end this sellout of taxpayers, drivers and victims and that they immediately withdraw Bill 68.”

I have signed my name to it.

Mr Farnan: I have a petition that is addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, and it also refers to Bill 68. In keeping with your advice, Mr Speaker, I am going to try to condense this as much as possible, while maintaining the major points that are put forward within the petition. I would say to the members of the House that there is a series of good points that need to be referred to in the petition.

Without reading it word for word, the first point that is made is that Bill 68 is legislation that makes tragic changes to the rights of innocent injured motor vehicle accident victims. It goes on to say that the Peterson government has made it clear that it wants this legislation rammed through, and of course based on the fact that we are looking at closure on this issues, they are absolutely correct. It further references the point that this particular legislation breaks the promise of the Premier during the 1987 election.

It goes on to say that the bill is in effect an enormous taxpayer subsidy to the private corporate auto insurance industry and that it in fact will cost the drivers of Ontario millions of dollars in increased premiums.

A further very important point that is raised in this petition is that the legislation will create a billion-dollar payday for the auto insurance industry. When they have taken all these facts together, they come to the conclusion -- as you will agree, Mr Speaker, the obvious conclusion -- that the Premier and the Liberals have refused to listen to the hundreds of submissions made to them calling upon them to abandon this bad legislation.

It is signed by two very concerned citizens of the province and I have added my name in total agreement.

The Deputy Speaker: The Chair appreciates the fact that the member went to great lengths to make it as short as possible, thank you.

Miss Martel: I too, as you will gather, have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. I will not read it all. It does say, as a matter of course, that this bill is so bad that it should be thrown out. I would add that you may want to toss the minister out the window with it, but that is not written here.

In any event, some of the points which I think have to be raised because they are so important are, first, that this government has made it very clear from the beginning that this legislation is going to be rammed through in spite of everything that we have heard at the public hearings, such as that this bill is so bad it should be withdrawn.

Second, the bill does nothing to respond to a very specific plan that the Premier of this province made when in Cambridge in 1987.

Mr Farnan: In Cambridge?

Miss Martel: In Cambridge, that is right, as my colleague says.

He made a specific plan that rates would be lowered, and there is nothing in this bill that does that. In fact, the Minister of Financial Institutions has already said the rates could increase as much as 50 per cent.

Third, the bill represents a huge payoff to the insurance industry in this province, $1 billion alone in the first year that this bill goes into effect.

Finally, because of the huge payoff to the insurance industry, those injured innocent victims in this province who deserve compensation and should be getting it will not because of this minister and this bill put forward by this government.

The good people whom I represent in my riding and the good people who are petitioning here think the Premier and his Liberal government should end this sellout of taxpayers -- which it is -- the sellout of drivers and victims, and that they should immediately withdraw Bill 68.

I agree entirely and I have affixed my signature to it.

Mr Kormos: I have a petition and it is addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, and indeed I am going to abbreviate, summarize, shorten and basically present a précis of what the

preamble states, because what this

preamble and the petitioners state is that this is bad legislation, written for and by the auto insurance industry -- a billion-dollar payday earned on the broken backs, broken legs, broken arms and fractured skulls of innocent injured victims.

Money is being taken from those innocents to pay off the insurance industry to the biggest billion-dollar payday that they have ever seen.

The Deputy Speaker: Thank you. This completes the allotted time for petitions. It has been brought to my attention, but it is also my own conclusion, that when members read petitions they abbreviate and do without comments. I am sure from now on members will remember those very precise standing orders.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS AND PRIVATE BILLS

Ms Oddie Munro from the standing committee on regulations and private bills presented the following report and moved its adoption:

Your committee begs to report the following bills without amendment:

Bill Pr57,

An Act respecting the city of North Bay;

Bill Pr61,

An Act to incorporate the City of Chatham Foundation.

Your committee further recommends that the fees and the actual costs of printing at all stages and in the annual statutes be remitted under Bill Pr30,

An Act respecting Regis College.

Motion agreed to.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

Mr Mahoney from the standing committee on finance and economic affairs presented the committee’s report on prebudget consultation 1990 and moved the adoption of its recommendations.

The Deputy Speaker: Does the member wish to make a brief statement?

Mr Wildman: Highlight recommendation 33.

Mr Mahoney: I have had a request to highlight certain recommendations of the report and I would invite the gentleman to the press conference in the media studio at four o’clock today. He can highlight it at that time, if he wishes.

I would like, however, to thank all members of the committee, from all three parties. I actually thought we were going to be close to a consensus this year, although we have minority reports. I would particularly like to thank our clerk, Lisa Freedman, and our two research officers, Anne Anderson and David Rampersad, for their dedication and their effort in compiling this report.

We heard from over 50 groups and individuals expressing concerns and asking us to take a message to the Treasurer in this report. I believe we have done that. Government spending restraint, no major tax increases and deficit reductions are the key themes that run through the report, but we have also addressed such very important issues as the extension of the Social Assistance Review Committee, which I am sure the members opposite would appreciate, and the extension of the Homes Now program, and we talked at great length about the problem of child poverty and the disabled functioning in our province.

I think it is a very comprehensive report. I would commend it to all members of this House for some very interesting bedtime reading.

The Deputy Speaker: Will the Chair move the adjournment of the debate?

Mr Wildman: Not until he highlights recommendation 33.

Mr Mahoney: I will highlight recommendation 33 at the press conference.

On motion by Mr Mahoney, the debate was adjourned.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION (CONTINUED)

Resuming the adjourned debate on government notice of motion 30 on time allocation in relation to Bill 68,

An Act to amend certain Acts respecting Insurance.

The Deputy Speaker: The member for Welland-Thorold may proceed.

Mr Kormos: I want to start out by thanking the Speaker’s chair for all of its assistance during the course of my comments yesterday. I appreciate that there may be times when I appear not to be addressing the specific motion that is before the House. It is because, in my view, it is necessary to provide background, to flesh it out, if you will, so that a decision can be made on this motion in its whole context, because it is an important motion.

I want to tell you this as well, Mr Speaker. Any time I appear to be drifting away from the main issue, that is to say, the closure motion, the time allocation motion, I assure you it is not a purposeful attempt to deviate from the main course of what the conversation should be; it is not an attempt to make this longer than it has to be; it is not an attempt to obfuscate the issue at hand with other matters. It is a sincere and perhaps at times less than perfect attempt on my part to explain the issue that is before this House.

This House has an opportunity, of course, as it should, to vote on this motion when the matter comes to a vote. I expect that will be in due course, not too soon and not too late. I am confident that common sense will prevail. I know I spoke a little bit about this yesterday.

I know it is sometimes difficult to even suppose that common sense would prevail here at Queen’s Park, but I am confident that when this matter does come to a vote, perhaps next week, perhaps the week after, perhaps the week after that -- that of course depends upon the eagerness of other members of the Legislature to discuss this issue -- members of this House will oppose this motion and the mover of it will recognize that indeed if anybody has caused an inappropriate length of time to transpire before the real issue, the discussion of the bill in committee of the whole and the discussion of the bill during third reading, it was the mover of this motion.

The motion before us now is such a crucial issue, it warrants such thorough consideration and, as I say, when common sense rears its head in that unusual way here at Queen’s Park and when the members of this House vote against this motion, vote against time allocation, the mover of this motion will have to reflect and acknowledge that indeed it was this motion that caused the delays, because it is this motion that is preventing us from getting down to the issue of talking about Bill 68.

We in the New Democratic Party have been eager to debate Bill 68 from day one. We made a significant contribution to that debate at the time of second reading. We were hamstrung, we were muzzled, we were confronted with time allocation during the course of committee hearings, those very same committee hearings that the Minister of Financial Institutions did not want to have because he wanted this legislation to be rammed through without public comment, without its being subjected to the scrutiny of people across Ontario and without permitting those people who were able to examine the legislation an opportunity to speak to a committee of this House.

Those committee hearings were so short, so abbreviated, they were not attended -- honest, I know that it is hard to believe that the minister would not come to the committee hearings. I appreciate that it is hard to believe. If he had failed to come on one day or two days or three days, one could understand that things can come up. Even when you are a cabinet minister, things can come up.

I appreciate that my saying that the Minister of Financial Institutions did not see fit to show up at those committee hearings is probably close to being unbelievable, but I say that the other people who were in and about those hearings -- who, I suspect, are going to be speaking on this very time allocation motion -- will indeed confirm this: The minister was not there.

It was not that he was in another room. It was not that he was en route and late. It was not that he had to leave early and could not stick around for the afternoon session. It is that he just was not there. This is the most significant bit of legislation to weave its way through this Legislature in a long time, and the minister just was not there.

That is why it becomes important and curious and worthy of some inquiry as to what the motive is for moving this motion. What is the motive for seeking time allocation, for seeking further restriction?

Mr Farnan: Bradley was not at Hagersville. Why would this guy be at the committee?

Mr Kormos: Well, hopefully he was not there before. He certainly was not there after.

Miss Martel: He should have been there before, shutting them down.

Mr Kormos: The Treasurer was there before. Somebody interjected about Hagersville, tire fires, massive tire fires, millions and millions of tires burning, people’s lives destroyed. That really is a serious matter.

I do want the House to pay heed, with your indulgence, Mr Speaker, to what Beauchesne’s Parliamentary Rules and Forms, sixth edition, publisher Carswell, 1989, says is an underlying, fundamental principle of parliamentary law. This is the starting point. This is where you start. When you reflect on each and every thing that happens here, it should be looked at initially in the light that this brief comment from Beauchesne’s sheds on it.

Page 3 of that same edition, the sixth edition, publisher Carswell, Beauchesne’s Parliamentary Rules and Forms, published 1989 -- the very first paragraph in the text of that learned text states that the principles of Canadian parliamentary law are “to protect a minority and restrain the improvidence or tyranny of a majority.” I repeat this because this is so significant to what we are doing when we are discussing this motion right now and to what we are going to have to do when, in due course, we vote on this motion.

We have to reflect on this motion, first, from that first principle. The purpose of Canadian parliamentary law has to be, necessarily, to protect a minority and restrain the improvidence or tyranny of a majority. This time allocation motion, this gag, this muzzle, this guillotine, is so specifically contrary to that very first fundamental principle, is it not? There is not a single member of this Legislature who with honesty or integrity or virtue could stand up and suggest that this motion before us now is anything but the antithesis of something that protects a minority and restrains the improvidence or tyranny of a majority. They have a majority government here. We know that.

Mr Farnan: What party are they?

Mr Kormos: My goodness, the Liberals. David Peterson’s Liberals here in Ontario have an incredible majority, one that at first blush was impressive. We are talking about perhaps a few short days after 1987 when people in Ontario thought, for the briefest of moments, that maybe some of the promises they made were going to be kept, that maybe the influence of the New Democratic Party and its policies would continue to provide direction for the government as it did between 1985 and 1987, that maybe with that majority this government could make some substantial reforms.

This government talked -- I was young at the time, but I remember it so well -- in its campaigns about how the Conservatives had let things slide, deteriorate, in the areas of health, education and welfare. I specifically recall that, that the Liberals, when they were campaigning, were being critical of how the Conservatives, their predecessors in power, had let the areas of health, education and welfare decline and be eroded. The Liberals, David Peterson’s Liberals, promised that was where commitment was going to be.

They got a majority and they are using this majority right now when they move this motion before this Legislature. Because their exercise of majority power in this instance is tyrannical, in the fullest and most proper sense, and tyrannical certainly in the sense as used by Beauchesne. That is the first principle of parliamentary law and one about which we have no hesitation in saying this motion has a great deal of conflict with. Indeed, this motion, as I say, is the antithesis of that first principle and cannot stand up to scrutiny when the light of that first principle is shed on it.

I know that if that first principle of parliamentary law did not make much of an impact on the members of the Liberal Party, the second one will. When it comes time for members of this Legislature, for the Liberals to vote on this motion, please, Mr Speaker, I beg of them, and I beg of you to remind them, when they vote on this motion to please recall what the second principle of Canadian parliamentary law is, as stated by Beauchesne in that same text, the 1989 edition, publisher Carswell.

The second principle that this motion must be seen in light of is “to secure the transaction of public business in an orderly manner.” What is more public than a piece of legislation that is going to affect every single person, every single resident of Ontario in one way or another -- Bill 68? Taxpayers are gouged to the tune of $140 million to $143 million the first year. Drivers are gouged with premium increases as high as 50 per cent. Compensation for pain and suffering and loss of enjoyment of life to innocent injured victims is reduced, to the tune of some $823 million.

What is more public than legislation that is going to hit hard on drivers, taxpayers and innocent injured victims? That is public business.

This motion encourages the disorderly approach to the transaction of this particular bit of public business, Bill 68. It encourages a disorderly approach when the Liberals, with their majority, would attempt to have something so important as Bill 68 discussed in less than six hours in committee of the whole, especially when committee of the whole is designed to deal with clause-by-clause and with amendments. The government has got some 30 amendments. The Tories, the Conservative Party, the third party, have a whack of amendments. How can six hours be sufficient in which to -- and this was mentioned before, I know -- even present the amendments? It becomes literally impossible.

That encourages disorderliness. The motion before this House right now encourages disorderliness. It has already failed the first two principles expressed by Beauchesne. As I say, if blame is ultimately to be attached, it should be to the author and mover of this motion for holding the principles of parliamentary law in such great disregard, indeed for treating such long-time principles with such disdain.

Perhaps that is the saddest thing about this whole discussion, the disdain that the Liberals have for parliamentary procedure, the disdain that the Liberals have for the public, the disdain that the Liberals have for open dialogue, because that is exactly what this motion is designed to stifle, to kill, to smother, to guillotine. That is what these motions colloquially are called.

The third principle expressed in Beauchesne -- and, again, if principle 1 and principle 2 did not impress members of this Legislature when it comes time to mark their ballot, if you will, on this motion -- I am sorry, Mr Speaker; if you want to follow along, I am sure the pages could secure a copy of Beauchesne for you. Please, if I am reading this incorrectly or if I am misinterpreting Beauchesne, let anybody here please say so in reply to my brief comments about this.

The third of the principles of Canadian parliamentary law principle that has to be recalled and has to be a guiding principle when considering this motion is -- I say this with such great respect for this very institution -- “To enable every member to express opinions within limits necessary to preserve decorum and prevent an unnecessary waste of time.”

Now, I am a student of tradition and decorum. I have made it a practice to read some old books, read some new ones, to speak to people who have been around for a long time and had an opportunity to see the evolution in style and in tradition, and in my own very special way I am an adherent, a fan of decorum. It is because of that that I feel as strongly as I do about this motion. It is because of that respect for decorum that I consider it essential that this motion be defeated, because the limits that are spoken of are the limits necessary to preserve decorum. Quite right.

What that means is that everybody cannot talk all at the same time. We are not asking that Bill 68 be discussed in the context of a free-for-all. Again, this goes back to the last principle that I spoke of, where we talked about the transaction of public business in an orderly manner. This motion encourages a disorderly transaction of Bill 68.

My goodness, I wish we had come up with some of these arguments when we were talking about a point of order. It might have made the Chair’s task far easier to have been directed to these basic principles and to have looked at the closure motion, the time allocation motion before us, in that context. “To enable every member to express opinions” -- that is precisely what this motion before us now does not do.

It prevents every member from expressing his or her opinion, because it does not even allow enough time for the presentation of the amendments that are being proposed by the Liberals in the government and by the Conservatives as the third party, never mind any discussion of them. It does not permit any questioning of the minister. It does not even come close to permitting any questioning of the minister about what these amendments mean.

I have not yet been told by any member of the government, any of the Liberals, that any one of them is thoroughly familiar with all of this Bill 68, all of the amendments and the significance of the bill and of the amendments. One would think that the Liberal members would be as eager as we are to defeat this time allocation motion so that there could indeed be the opportunity for every member to express opinions within the limits necessary to preserve decorum and prevent an unnecessary waste of time.

That is the sad part. I am going to come back to Beauchesne, but that takes me to Erskine May because in Erskine May they talk about time allocation. The principle there is essentially the same one that ought to be utilized by this assembly in its vote on the motion before us. I should, for the record, indicate I am reading from Erskine May’s Treatise on the Law, Privileges, Proceedings and Usage of Parliament, 21st Edition, 1989, published by Butterworths.

I am reading from page 410 and I am directing the Speaker’s attention to page 410, “An allocation of time order is not usually moved until after the second reading of a bill” -- fair enough, no quarrel -- “and usually not until the rate of progress in committee has provided an argument for its necessity.”

That is the problem here. That is why if the people who are members in this assembly are going to responsibly perform their roles, they are going to vote against this motion, because now they are the judges. On a point of order the Speaker is the judge. It is like a trial with the judge alone. Now you are the judge, Mr Speaker, but this is the jury. Jurors have responsibilities, and the judge has the responsibility to make sure the jurors are properly equipped with the directions, with the rules, with the guiding light.

It is not a resolution. A support or denial of this motion is no longer in the Speaker’s hands; it is in the hands of these 130 members. It is up to them to perform their task when they vote on this motion, responsibly, without a bias that comes from their partisan affiliation. They have to think of the best interests of the community. Because we are not talking about Bill 68; we are talking about the motion, are we not? We are talking about what this assembly does with the time allocation motion before it.

We are talking about this assembly having a very important function now that the motion has been ruled in order and now that it goes to this assembly for a decision. That is why I read very briefly from Erskine May and cite Erskine May from page 410: “An allocation of time order is not usually moved until after the second reading of a bill, and usually not until the rate of progress in committee has provided an argument for its necessity.”

That is such an important and basic principle that I have put a little asterisk beside it with my pen. I marked it with an asterisk.

Miss Martel: I hope that is not from the library.

Mr Kormos: It is a borrowed book. The opposition House leader will not mind, I am sure.

Interestingly, it is in Erskine May that time allocation orders are referred to as “guillotines,” that you are -- truncating?

Miss Martel: Cutting off at the knees.

Mr Kormos: In any event, you are destroying something. Something is being crushed. It is more than just oppressive.

Interjection.

Mr Kormos: Yes, it is. It is a life-draining act, it is a life-ending act, because the vitality of this assembly is dependent upon its ability to openly debate. And those are the rights that we talked about when we talked about Beauchesne and how it enunciated the principles of parliamentary law, and we are going to go back to that. Without that debate, there is no vitality, there is no life. You are creating a corpse out of what was once a lively body; not just a lively body, but a body that gave life to things that came before it and, notwithstanding that it is April, an august body.

But it loses some of its augustness, a whole lot of its augustness, when it has to concern itself fearfully -- because I am fearful; I am as afraid as I have ever been. I am afraid that Liberal members will not listen carefully to the arguments about this motion. I am afraid that Liberal members will not listen carefully to the principles contained in Erskine May and in Beauchesne and will not even try to understand why those principles are expressed there.

Let’s go back to Beauchesne, because we talked about the principles of parliamentary law, the fundamentals, “to give abundant opportunity for the consideration of every measure, and to prevent any legislative action being taken upon sudden impulse.” I read that, telling members that is the final enunciated fundamental of Canadian parliamentary law in Beauchesne, and the one that is really most valuable to us in our considerations of this time allocation motion. “To give abundant opportunity”: Abundant does not mean a little bit. Abundant means a lot. Abundant means certainly as much as is necessary.

Miss Martel: And more.

Mr Kormos: And more for good measure, to err on the side of caution. Because when you are talking about democracy, when you are talking about a free society, a society wherein there are freedoms, a society wherein people resolve differences in -- here I go again; I am almost drawn to a discussion of Bill 68 itself as compared to the motion that is before us because I am talking about the motion and I am talking about how it denies recourse to the parliamentary procedure as a means of settling differences and how important that is in a civilized society, in a free society and one where physical might does not prevail but reason and fairness and logic should prevail.

Perhaps I realize, then, that that comment becomes trite when one realizes that that is what Bill 68 is all about, because it is about taking people’s right to use a courtroom to settle differences and to have the power of the state back them up when they are right. That is so important, because otherwise they are dealing -- really, it does fit in.

Just as we in the opposition, if this motion is permitted to pass, will be thoroughly frustrated in performing our job as we are intent to perform it, just as we will be frustrated in that because we will not be able to use this forum to protect the little people, imagine, then, how the innocent injured victims of motor vehicle accidents will feel when they are told that they cannot use the courts to fight off wealthy, powerful insurance companies who would prey on them, very much as this government would prey on people and prey on minorities. That is what this motion is all about. It is a predatory act. It is a predatory suggestion.

Just as a government, the Liberals, would use their power, their might in terms of numbers -- and my goodness, it is only in terms of numbers -- to prey on a minority, to stifle, to crush the life, to destroy, to eliminate an opposition, then too will insurance companies prey on victims, prey on drivers and, with the help of this government, prey on taxpayers, and they will not have any recourse either.

So I say that this motion is a very important one. This motion violates every one of the principles spoken of as being a fundamental principle of Canadian parliamentary law in Beauchesne. It contradicts everything -- everything -- that is spoken of in Erskine May as being a necessary prerequisite to consideration of time allocation.

We should -- and I do this with a purpose of citing, so that members who are not here will have an opportunity to read Hansard, in view of the fact that I am sure not many of them have Erskine May in their personal libraries, and if they do, it could well not be an up-to-date one. So I cite Erskine May, as I did earlier, at page 410, where it talked, appropriately, about an allocation of time order “not moved until the rate of progress in committee has provided an argument for its necessity.”

On pages 408 and 409, comment is made about “resort...to the most drastic method of curtailing debate known to procedure” -- the most drastic measure. What that implies and certainly suggests to me, and I would think to other people, is that the most drastic measure has to be used for the most drastic circumstances, and there is nothing about these circumstances that illustrate that it is drastic.

That is not to say that we in the opposition, the New Democrats, are opposed to the principle of time allocation -- of course not. Why, we have supported time allocation motions.

We supported it when it was introduced by the government when this House was dealing with Bill 94, the bill to ban extra-billing. It was the New Democratic Party’s position at the time, and I suggest to you an appropriate position, that to not bring in time allocation in those circumstances, to end a filibuster that was occurring in the Legislature, was to give a mixed message to the people of the province, and specifically to the doctors.

What happened then -- and members know full well that I was not an elected member then -- was that the House, the Legislature, the province, was in the midst of a medical and health care crisis. By not ending the debate on Bill 94, there was an encouragement of the strike by doctors across the province.

In that instance there had been lengthy, lengthy, lengthy -- remember the committee hearings on that? They were basically open-ended. Anybody who wanted to come and speak could. That is not the case here. This government fitted its muzzle on the opposition when it would only permit very limited committee hearings; and debate in committee of the whole consideration in that instance, with Bill 94, as members well know, was lengthy and thorough and considerable.

I should mention, if only by way of anecdote, that there were more than a few doctors and medical personnel who appeared at the standing committee on general government hearings to condemn this legislation. Many had not paid close enough attention to the procedure to realize that it was the Minister of Financial Institutions who was trying to impose it on the people of Ontario, and when they looked at the name that accompanied the title, they could not believe it. They said, “Oh, no, not again.” They had been done in once and now they were seeing themselves virtually as being done in twice by the same actor.

Anyway, back to the fact that we have in the past, and in that instance we did, because in that instance the circumstances satisfied all of the criteria that are laid out as necessary prerequisites to the passage of a time allocation motion. Here they do not; they are far from it. That is why it is important that this motion be opposed.

Fair-minded people, people who care about democracy, people who care about debate, people who care about honest, open exchange, would endorse a debate that was healthy and vital. People who have no interest in democracy, people who would prefer jackboot politics, would propose time allocation.

The problem with that mentality is that it is out of style in eastern Europe. Dictato