Manitoba Hansard — 16 April 2010 (Sitting 29C, 39th Legislature, 4th Session)

39-4-29c

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXII No. 29C - 10 a.m., Friday, April 16, 2010 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P.

MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WIEBE, Matt Concordia N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

893 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, April 16, 2010 The House met at 10 a.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES AND CONSUMER AFFAIRS Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Consumer Affairs): Point of order. Madam Chair, could you canvass the House to see if there's agreement to temporarily interrupt the Chamber

section to put the Speaker back in the chair of the House? Madam Chairperson: Is there agreement from the House of the committee to put the Speaker back into the chair for a short point of order? [Agreed] Ms. Marilyn Brick, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair IN SESSION Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Consumer Affairs): Would you canvass the House? I believe that you will find agreement for the

section in room 254 to meet today in spite of the

section rising yesterday. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there agreement for the

section meeting in room 254 to meet today? Agreed? [Agreed] Thank you. The Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of Estimates in their three sections. Thank you. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT * (10:00) Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order? This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Housing and Community Development. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister of Housing and Community Development): Yes, I do. I welcome the opportunity to provide explanation and information with respect to the budgetary and strategic planning considerations for Housing and Community Development for the upcoming fiscal year.

The government of Manitoba is committed to ensuring stability in our economy and views the activities within the Department of Housing and Community Development as an important vehicle to achieve stimulation and recovery, not only in the housing sector, but in the larger provincial economy as well. Increased spending on Housing and Community Development not only provides stimulation to our provincial economy but also provides skill development, training and employment opportunities that help lower income citizens escape poverty.

Investment in affordable housing and social housing helps lower income families to access safe, affordable housing that is required to promote social inclusion and economic participation. This will also provide greater long-term economic and social return on investment that directly benefits citizens and communities in which they live, work and play. This is why the decision to increase spending is not only necessary but is also demonstrative of our determination to reduce poverty and its effects in our province and promote economic development in all regions.

Our long-term housing strategy, supported by a two-year, 327-million investment plan, provides a new vision and promotes strong partnerships to create more and better affordable housing in communities across the province. Our investments in housing work to provide sustainable infrastructure that will provide a range of housing options that respond to the changing circumstances of all Manitobans.

894 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 In addition, we recognize that our investments in housing activity are part of neighbourhoods and larger communities. Housing contributes to the community and economic development activities that build and foster the growth of healthy communities. Budget 2010 represents the second year of our two-year investment plan that, with the help of the federal government's contribution of close to a hundred million, will invest 327 million in housing programs and capital projects that will benefit Manitobans.

This historical commitment will create more than 1,900 jobs and 96.5 million in spinoff activities for our province. We are proud that Budget 2010 provides approximately 118 million in funding to deliver on our commitment to renew the existing social housing stock and provide the much-needed renovation and energy retrofits to reduce operational costs and greatly improve the quality of life for families and individuals who reside in housing properties that are managed by Manitoba Housing and sponsor- managed co-operative and non-profit housing.

The Province of Manitoba committed to provide Manitobans with an additional 1,500 units of social housing over five years in order to provide more citizens in need with af fordable, health, safe and suitable housing. To achieve this goal, we have committed to increase our previous investment by 28 million for the total investment of 123 million that will see the construction of 600 new affordable rental units and will add 600 new rent-geared-to-income units in the combined 2009-2010 and the 2010-2011 budget years.

Our larger complement of housing and community development programs will continue to provide housing at affordable rents at individuals, seniors and families in need, support community- driven construction or renovation of affordable homes for lower income Manitobans, support the operation of homeless shelters, provide low-income home-owners and landlords with funding to renovate and repair their homes, and provide opportunities for neighbourhoods and communities to access funds for worthwhile community development projects and activities.

We know that the provision of housing alone is not adequate for some of our most vulnerable citizens who have difficulty maintaining stable tenancies. This budget also provides an increase in funding for portable housing benefits which will provide a subsidy of up to $200 per month to the homeless and eligible persons with mental health issues for their shelter costs. The benefit also provides support to assist these individuals stabilizing and maintaining their housing situation.

The integration of the successful Neighbourhoods Alive! initiative into Housing and Community Development enables increased co-ordination of related programs with their associated funding mechanisms that provide community organizations access to the most appropriate resources and broadest range of project support. An increase in funding for the expansion of Neighbourhoods Alive! in the Elmwood area of Winnipeg will support improvements to housing, education, safety, and crime prevention in the community.

Additional funding is also budgeted for other ongoing and new community development activities including the granting capacity of Community Places program, the co-operative start-up fund that complements the new co-operative tax credit, which will facilitate a variety of projects and benefit our community. The creation of the new Department of Housing and Community Development represents a promising opportunity to strengthen our communities and enable them to reach their full potential.

Through this new department, we are poised to better integrate housing initiatives with other social and economic community development policies and programs. Homes do not exist in isolation from their communities, and the marriage of these two policy areas will strengthen efforts to create and sustain healthy communities for all Manitobans. Mr. Chairperson, I want to inform–for the information of the committee–that ministers are already reducing a 20 percent–have–we're receiving a 20 percent reduction in salary as announced in Budget 2010, a year earlier than what is required under the current law.

As committee members will note, this reduction is included in the total calculation of expenditures and is reflected on pages 8, 9 and 11 of Budget 2010 Estimates of Expenditure and Revenue. The 20 percent reduction will continue if the applicable legislation is enacted by the Legislative Assembly. Housing and Community Development will continue to develop its capacity to be more responsive to the needs of Manitobans within the communities and to the clients in which we serve. We have to take an opportunity to thank the staff that

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 895 have eagerly joined the new department, Housing and Community Development, and have continued to work together as we integrate all of these services to ensure that we can provide a better Manitoba for all of them. And also, we cannot go forward without acknowledging the support that we receive every day from the non-profit organizations in the private sector, which also encourage the support of development of housing in this great province. Thank you. * (10:10) Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments.

Does the official opposition critic, honourable member for Springfield, have any opening comments? Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): No. Mr. Chairperson: Under Manitoba practice, debate on the Minister's Salary is the last item considered for a department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 30.1.(

a) contained in resolution 30.1. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Ms. Irvin-Ross: I a m v e r y p l e a s e d t o b e j o i n e d b y Joy Cramer, who is the Deputy Minister of Housing and Community Development; Darrell Jones, who is Manitoba Housing Chief Executive Officer; and Brian Brown, who is the Financial Management Comptroller. Mr. Chairperson: Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion? An Honourable Member: Global discussion. Mr.

Chairperson: Global discussion. Agreed? [Agreed] The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Schuler: I thank the minister for her opening statement and, as this is a new department there is a lot to learn and probably an area that I don't have a lot of knowledge in, so this will be a good opportunity for myself to understand what it is that department does and the work and the individuals that run the department. Education and Labour tended to be the last 10 years of my political career, so this is a little bit of a change for myself and that's good, always an opportunity to learn something new.

I'd like to thank the deputy minister and the other two individuals for being here this morning and we'll try to make this as painless as possible for them. I would like to also thank all the other individuals the minister referenced, the non-profits, but also the other staff in the department, those individuals that do make the system work, and it's an important department and we appreciate the fact that there's a real need for public housing.

Anybody who's ever travelled to India, and I know our Chairperson would understand this better than the rest of us, but when you see the kind of housing needs in other countries and the kind of poor, poor housing that people are living in, I think we have a better understanding of what we should be doing as a nation and as a province to ensure that those who have the need are housed appropriately so. With that in mind, I would like to ask the minister: What is the department's annual advertising budget? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Do you want me to take that under notice?

In the honour of time that we have, so limited, what I'll do is I'll take that under notice and I'll provide that with you as soon as I can. Mr. Schuler: And you know what, on that one I used to spend a lot of time with various ministers in the Department of Labour, and the Honourable Nancy Allan used to take a lot of issues under advisement and was really good at putting it all together and I would get a whole package. And, no, I understand there isn't everything available here, so if we could get that at some point in time we'd appreciate that.

The next question I have is, what advertisement campaigns did the Department of Housing and Community Development run in the budget year 2009-2010? Ms. Irvin-Ross: The only formal campaign that we did was for Bridgwater Forest around the province of Manitoba. There were some initiatives that we developed such as the HOMEWorks! Strategy which was, you know, there was brochures that were developed to get the message out to communities, but it wasn't a broad marketing strategy that was attached to that. Mr. Schuler: Could we get the direct costs in what ads were run, and I understand that's probably not

896 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 something we would get today, but is that something that the minister could provide to the committee at another date? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, I'll commit to providing you the cost of that and examples of some of the material that we use. Mr. Schuler: What is the total number of units that Manitoba Housing oversees? Ms. Irvin-Ross: There's 34,900, and in that combination, there's ones that we direct manage and there is a certain portion that is sponsored managed. Mr. Schuler: So, 3,490 units– Ms. Irvin-Ross: Nine hundred. Mr. Schuler: Thirty-four thousand– Ms.

Irvin-Ross: Nine hundred. Mr. Schuler: Nine hundred units. The minister corrected me. And so how many buildings is that? Ms. Irvin-Ross: So there are–in those–the 34,900 units that we do have, there are 1,200 projects. Now, that would include both the direct- managed and the sponsored managed and non-profit. And what you need to know is that there's multiple buildings in some of those projects. Mr. Schuler: And again, I don't know this, so I'll ask. Is there an annual report that's done on all the projects?

Is it possible to get a list of all the projects we have with an address, you know, just for the committee's sake, just to have an understanding of the magnitude. I'd have to say, 34,900, that's a lot of units. And 1,200 projects. That's a magnitude which–like, I don't know if it's possible to get a printout of all the projects and their addresses, like, where they're located. Is that possible? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, we can provide the member with the master list for all of our units. Mr. Schuler: I thank the minister for that. How many buildings are managed directly–or projects? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: We have–we direct manage 13,100 units, and within those units there's 541 projects? [interjection] Fifty-one projects. Mr. Schuler: Is it possible to get the list split out by which ones are managed directly and which ones are managed indirectly? * (10:20) Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, we can provide that as part of the master list. Mr. Schuler: The minister–the committee thanks the minister and her department for that. Of the buildings that are not managed directly, how many are managed by a company [inaudible] that would be for profit. Ms.

Irvin-Ross: We don't have the breakdown of that, but we can provide that to you. Mr. Schuler: The committee thanks the minister for that. Just to be clear, there's a certain amount that are managed by property management companies– [interjection]–Linden properties, whichever, you know, Oak properties–[interjection]–whatever. I take it, then, there are others that are managed by non-profit charities. Is that correct? Would the minister have an idea of how many of those there would be? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, there are 260 non-profit and co-operative groups in which we work with.

And we can provide the member with the list. Mr. Schuler: I thank the minister for that. So there are obviously property management companies that manage some of the properties. There'd be non-profit and charities that would manage some of the properties. Who would manage the rest of the properties? Is there a–are some managed directly by the department? How does that work? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yeah, that's correct. There are some that are–ran by not-for-prof it organizations. There's some that we have agreements with property managers. There are some that we direct-manage ourselves. So it's a combination.

It depends on, geograph- ically, where this property is, how those decisions get made and what's in the best interest of the community. Mr. Schuler: And how many projects are directly managed by and controlled by the department or public entities? Ms. Irvin-Ross: It–the number of properties that we manage directly is 551 projects. So that total number, that includes the 13,100 units. That's what we're responsible for, and that would be under our Tenant Services and Asset Management branch of Manitoba Housing that manages that portfolio.

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 897 Mr. Schuler: Can the minister provide the committee with the names of the management companies that are contracted to manage property? I take it there's a series of them? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, we can, but we'll have it under notice. Can I–do I–can I clarify with the member, though, are you talking about all of our not-for-profit or co-operatives and then some of them that are ran by the private sector? Mr.

Schuler: No, because the minister was going to endeavour to get us the ones that are run by profit and non-profit and charities, and there were 260, she thought, and that was going to be broken up into a group. And then it's one of these that's just way too easy. I mean, that list then is obviously run by a non- profit charity. So I mean, because the numbers are so big, I mean, that's–just to get a handle on where that is. What we're basically asking for as the committee is: What are the management companies? Who are they that are involved with government in managing some of these properties? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: We'll endeavour to gather that information and provide that to the member. Mr. Schuler: Can the minister provide the committee with what would be the general terms of those agreements? Because I take it there would have to be some kind of–is it a five-year agreement? Is it a blanket agreement? And, like, what percentage–like, how do they pay these management companies is what I'm trying to get at. Ms.

Irvin-Ross: So, in Housing, we negotiate with some non-profit organizations or co-operatives around rent supplements, and so we will have–we have five-year agreements with those proponents, and we can provide you a copy of that. When we're talking about the property manager aspect of it, often what happens it's the not-for-profit organization negotiating directly with the property manager. So we do not oversee those negotiations. That's their responsibility. Mr.

Schuler: So, just to understand, there–are all the properties non-for-profit and charity, and then they can decide to bring in a property management company? Or are there some projects which the government just directly has property management companies administer? Ms. Irvin-Ross: I will endeavour to answer this question for the member. So what we do is we go into an agreement with a not-for-profit organization, and a good example–I'm not going to give an example because I don't think that they have a property manager.

But of a particular project, and that particular project we negotiate with them our agreement, maybe to build the–it's a brand new build, to build this facility. And after it's built and they are managing it, they can themselves go and negotiate with a private property ma nager–a deal. So that is what happens. Does that answer your question? Mr. Schuler: Okay and, again, I just want to be really clear because I–the– there are 1,200 projects, and so they are all run by non-profit or run directly by government. So there's only those two.

And, then, if somebody chooses to, a non-profit organization can have a property management company come in, and that would not be under the purview of the department, then. That would be a side agreement signed by the non-profit? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yeah. It would be a standard property agreement that–with the not-for-profit would negotiate with the property manager. I think it's hard for us to talk about the private sector and name names, right? Because we might leave somebody out or it might not be a person that's directly involved with the portfolio. But I know we're very familiar with SAM (Management).

I think you've heard about SAM (Management) yourself. And so that is an example of an organization that would be–you know, another co-operative could negotiate with them to provide services for them. Beaumont gardens in Fort Garry is a good example of that. * (10:30) Mr. Schuler: And, again, the non-profit would be able to go and basically pick anybody–like, they could go to Globe General Agencies or–I'm trying to think of–funny how you drive by these apartment blocks and you should know all the names; then it comes to you, you can't remember any of them.

But, you know, so they could basically go to anybody, depending on what they're looking for, and negotiate a deal? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, I thank the member for the question. So what I can advise is that we do have operational reviews that is under our portfolio administration. And we will go in, and we will

898 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 review agreements that not- for-profits will have signed with property managers and assess them. There are particular–we'll have to–we can provide this to the member. Like, there are particular expectations that not-for-profits have to meet. Some of them is the rent that th ey are going to charge. And we are in constant conversation with them and evaluating that and ensuring that they're following through with the contracts we sign. Mr. Schuler: Is there a list of property management companies that the department recommends?

Is there a list that they don't recommend, or does the department not involve itself in that area at all? Ms. Irvin-Ross: The not-for-profits are not-for- profit organizations. They manage their own buildings, so we trust that they will go do their own due diligence and make sure that they can get the best deal for themselves and for their tenants. Mr. Schuler: And, again, I just want to be really clear on this one. So ther e's no involvement by the department or departmental staff on choosing of property management companies. That is done by non-profit boards and co rporations; that's done directly. Ms.

Irvin-Ross: That's correct. Mr. Schuler: I thank the minister for that. Of the entities that are directly managed by government–and that would be 551 projects–are any of those managed by property management companies, or are all those managed in-house? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Those 551 projects are all managed by TSAM, Tenant Services and Asset Management branch of Manitoba Housing. Mr. Schuler: Okay and TSAM, does that fall under this department? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes. Mr. Schuler: So the minister directly administers that as well, and it's also a service that is offered to non-profits. Correct? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: We should probably–you know, I will offer a full briefing to the member about the department and how it's organized, because it is–it's very complicated. It's still a Crown corporation, Manitoba Housing, that works within, now, this new Department of Housing and Community Development. So I offer that to you if you're interested in sitting down with myself and the department staff and having a thorough conversation about it. So we could really have a dialogue, rather than a Q and A, which would be helpful, I think. I offer that service. I'm not done yet.

But what the question was, now, all of our property is managed–the 13,100 units is directly managed by TSAM. The only time that we would get involved with a not-for-profit organization is if they were having difficulty managing and we needed to provide them some support and they've asked us for that support. Then we would offer to give them some information, whatever that level of support is necessary. Mr. Schuler: And that sort of does explain it. Minister, I'm probably one of those politicians that believes it's not one or the other. It's one and the other.

So I'm really good with the Q and A today and, yes, I'll take her up on the briefing so, I'm good with that, and again, this is a very big department and just trying to understand how it works and how does it function. The minister does this full time and has the department head to walk her through it. For the critic, it's more challenging, so. The next question I have is what is the current vacancy rate in public housing in Manitoba, if any? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Now, as everything with housing, it's not simply reported what our vacancy is. Our vacancy rate in the province is 4.9 percent.

However, we have been being extremely aggressive–and I have to congratulate the department on their vacancy management strategy where they have been going and making phone calls and encouraging individuals and telling them about other opportunities. We've been able to, more recently, and I can't remember, in just a few months, move 300 people into some of our units and provide them with good quality housing.

The other part that you need to know is that there is a certain percentage, and that would be 5.9 percent of our stock, is now not for rent–is what we call it–and it's not for rent because we're going under great renovations and I think you've probably heard about the announcem ents, recently, Lord Selkirk Park, renovating 314 units. We're doing similar project in Gilbert Park. We're doing some work in Brandon, and in order to get those refreshes, as we call them, completed, we need to have vacancies.

So we're–there's vacancies being created by people moving out and, as those get created, we are doing blocks of units there.

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 899 And I just–just so the member knows, it's a really exciting project in Lord Selkirk Park where we are hiring local members to do the work. So it's a really rewarding initiative and I'm very proud of the staff and the work that Minister Mackintosh did to formulate it. Mr. Schuler: How much funding comes from the federal government for housing in Manitoba? * (10:40) Ms.

Irvin-Ross: The federal government has provided us with a hundred million dollars over the next two years for our HOMEWorks! strategy, and that would include the RRAP money, capital projects, stimulus. This was the stimulus money. But, on a yearly basis, and I'm sure the member is familiar about the historical perspective of what's happened with the relationship between the federal government and provincial and territorial jurisdictions, is that there's been an agreement and that, every year, it's been re ducing.

And so this year we can report that we will be receiving $64 million from the federal government, but it will continue to decline. We continue to advocate with the federal government about their role in housing, and participating with us fully to provide that. And we're right now working on our next agreement for RRAP and AHI and homelessness. Mr. Schuler: When these contracts are let–and were looking at–if it's $64 million annual funding plus a hundred-million stimulus, we're looking at about approximately $220-plus million over two years. Obviously, that means that there's going to be some new facilities built.

The minister did announce that. I think we saw the announcements over the last couple of weeks. How are those contracts awarded to build these new units? Ms. Irvin-Ross: I just have to put on the record a point of clarification. I just want to make sure that the member knows exactly, the $100 million that we received for the two years was last year's budget, '09-10, and this year's budget, '10-11. I just wanted to clarify that for the member. So there is–if you're talking about new bills that you're asking about, where are we deciding to do that–well, it's very exci ting.

There's historical investments that are being made across the province to build new, that we haven't seen this kind of activity as far as housing, in a very, very long time– I'd like to say since the '70s, probably. And what we're doing is we're working with proponents. Often what we get is, we have what we call a project development fund, where organizations can approach us and they are awarded a $60,000 grant. And they take that grant and they develop their dream project based on what their needs are.

So what we do, as the department is, we evaluate a particular community, do an assessment, demographic assessment, on what is going on in that community, what are their needs and then also based on community interest. That's how the decisions are being made. Mr. Schuler: Of that $100 million, which, $50 million would have been allocated to the provincial government last year and then $50 million this year for stimulus funding, has last year's $50 million been spent or is that still in the development stage? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: I can assure the member that that money is fully committed and we are confident, with the federal stimulus money, we have the deadline that we need to complete these builds, by March 2011, and that's the target we're working towards. [interjection] Or, 2012? We have until March 2012 to fully spend that expenditure. Mr. Schuler: Does that include the $50 million for this year? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, that's both years are fully committed. Mr. Schuler: Is there a list of those projects available? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Well, there are.

We can provide you with the information about the projects that have already been announced. There is quite a few announcements that we're waiting to organize with the federal government to get them out. But, yes, we'll make sure that–we can provide you with the ones that have been announced now and, then, as– you'll hear about the future ones. Mr. Schuler: That would be appreciated by the committee. And, just briefly going back to TSAM, does TSAM ever contract any of its work out? Ms. Irvin-Ross: All of the major projects that TSAM's involved in is contracted out.

But you have to realize that TSAM is responsible for a whole variety of tenant services. So they're responsible for constructions of units, but also maintenance of those units, as well as security and pest control.

900 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 Mr. Schuler: Are those contracts awarded directly? Obviously, we're talking anything 25,000 and over. Is that awarded directly or is that done by tender? Ms. Irvin-Ross: I can assure the member that they're all done through a tendering process that's fair and equitable.

Just for the member's information, now that we're talking about tendering and procurement, that there is a movement, because of the work that we're doing around community development and community economic development, to find out how can we provide local hiring and local opportunities for contractors if we're doing work up north or, you know, in rural areas, how can we stimulate that economy, too, but still following a fair and equitable tendering process. Mr. Schuler: What are the criteria for tendering? Is it the lowest bidder? Is it local contractors? Is it reputation?

What are sort of the qualifiers to quality for a tender? Ms. Irvin-Ross: It is a point system that we do, but you have to know that the lowest bid gets the most amount of points. But we're also looking at economic development, training opportunities. We're also looking at the capacity of the organization and the historical quality of work that they have performed. Mr. Schuler: Is it possible to access the tendering process? Is there a form? Is there a criteria? Is it possible to get a copy of that, just to see what the criteria is? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: Yeah, we can offer to provide that with you, but whether the format looks like or the template. And you have to know that all tenders are put on our work system as well, so it's fully accessible to everyone. Mr. Schuler: On another issue, what is the process– procedure for testing the fire alarm systems and other security systems in public housing? * (10:50) Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, in respect to the fire code compliance, fire detect ion, fire suppression, emergency lighting systems, they're inspected on an annual basis and any of–if there's any issues, we deal with them immediately.

Our property have all updated fire safety plans now. We've also hired a fire safety co-ordinator which can do some direct training with our property managers and building supervisors. Mr. Schuler: And is there a policy that they have to be tested every year? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, I'm informed. Mr. Schuler: And that was complied with in the last budgetary year? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Well, for the direct-managed property, they've all been tested. The fire safety plans are in order. Mr. Schuler: As we seem to be running short on time, I'd like to move to Community Development.

How much funding has the West Broadway Development Corporation received in the last budgetary year? Ms. Irvin-Ross: In the respect of time, I can tell the member that in the last budget year they've received $178,647 for operating money. We suspect that through some of our other funds that there has been additional dollars that has been granted to them for specific projects. I will make a commitment that we will go through our information and make sure that we can provide you with a–with that total number. Mr. Schuler: The committee thanks the minister for that.

And can we also get it for 2008 and 2009? [interjection] Can the minister also provide to this committee what projects the West Broadway Development Corporation are currently involved in? Ms. Irvin-Ross: There are a number of projects that they're involved in. They're involved in community development as a whole. They have a food security project that they're working on as well as youth recreation programs we're su pporting them in. Lots of work has been happening around housing and safety in the community.

They are presently now working with many proponents of the redevelopment of their site and looking at the development of the green space. So that's just a real rough overview of the stuff that they do, and you have to realize that with the funding that they receive through Neighbourhoods Alive!, many of the communities are able to leverage other grants in order to provide them with the services, to see the great results we've had in the communities such as West Broadway. Mr. Schuler: Can we get a list of those projects? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes.

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 901 Mr. Schuler: Could the minister tell us: How was the board appointed to the corporation? Ms. Irvin-Ross: The community West Broadway Development Corporation has a community AGM where people are elected to the board and participate in the development of the programming. Mr. Schuler: Are any of those board members appointed by the government? Ms. Irvin-Ross: No. Mr. Schuler: Is it possible to get a list of the board of directors? [interjection] And is the minister aware, are there duties and responsibilities– Mr. Chairperson: Sorry, let me–supposed to call them.

Mr. Schuler: Sorry, I got ahead of myself by a year and a half. What are the duties and responsibilities of the board? Is there something laid out what their duties and responsibilities are? Is the minister aware? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yeah, there's some terms of reference and, you know, it's–the executive director that's hired at West Broadway reports to this board and they work on the development plans, but we can get you the specifics of that. Mr. Schuler: The committee thanks the minister for that.

And renumeration for employees and board members, obviously there's renumeration for employees, but is there renumeration for board members? Is the minister aware of that? Ms. Irvin-Ross: No, there is no renumeration for these boards. Mr. Schuler: Thank you. I'd just like to move on. Could the minister tell us in the last budgetary year what her ministerial travel was? Ms. Irvin-Ross: $670.94. Mr. Schuler: Did the travel–did the minister travel with anybody else? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes. Mr. Schuler: Could the minister tell this committee with whom she was travelling? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: It was Deputy Minister Joy Cramer and Special Assistant Rebecca Blaikie. Mr. Schuler: And where was the travel to? Ms. Irvin-Ross: It was for an FPT ministers meeting. First time that we've met with the federal housing minister in a number of years–I think five- plus years–and it was in Gatineau, Québec. Mr. Schuler: I take it that the deputy minister's costs were paid for through the department, not–the $650 doesn't include all three travelling, right? Ms. Irvin-Ross: That's correct. Mr.

Schuler: Could the committee also get the travel expenses and expenses of the deputy minister and the special assistant? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes. Mr. Schuler: I thank the minister for that. Has the department paid for any of the Premier's (Mr. Selinger) travel expenses? Ms. Irvin-Ross: No. Mr. Schuler: The travel that the minister declared at approximately $650, I take it that was for one trip. It does not include any travel within the province, kilometres, that kind of stuff, or was there some flying that the minister did that wouldn't have been reported in that $650? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: I have travelled to the north with the department. Mr. Schuler: So any travel that's done with the department is then recorded within the department? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes. Mr. Schuler: And how much travel was that? Ms. Irvin-Ross: There would have been two northern tours. Mr. Schuler: Did the minister travel outside of the province, outside of the $650 that would have been travel with the department? Ms. Irvin-Ross: No. Mr. Schuler: Is it a policy–and now I'm asking just out of curiosity–if it's within the province, is that then something that the department can pick up?

If it's outside of the province is that then considered ministerial travel? * (11:00) Ms. Irvin-Ross: There is no direct policy, but when I am doing work on behalf of the department, it gets billed there.

902 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 Mr. Schuler: Was any travel outside of the province that was directly related to the department that the department paid for? Ms. Irvin-Ross: Well, besides the Gatineau trip? Mr. Schuler: Correct. Ms. Irvin-Ross: No. Mr. Schuler: There are many, many more questions, however, as the Estimates time being what it is, I'd like to thank the minister and her department for the answers, and certainly look forward to some of the information forthcoming. I know the committee will appreciate that as soon as possible.

In the meantime, I think the committee is ready to go through the Estimates. Mr. Chairperson: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty–sorry. Resolution 30.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $57,541,000 for Housing and Community Development, Housing, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2011. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 30.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13,375,000 for Housing and Community Development, Community Development, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2011. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 30.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $170,000 for Housing and Community Development, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2011. Resolution agreed to. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of this department is item 30.1(a), the Minister's Salary contained in resolution 30.1. At this point, we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this last item. The floor is open for questions. Ms. Irvin-Ross: I move that item 30.1.(a), Minister's Salary, be reduced by 20 percent, or $9,000, to 37,000.

Mr. Chairperson: It has been moved by the honourable Minister for Housing and Community Development that I move that item 30.1.(

a) Minister's Salary be reduced by 20 percent from $9,000 to–I think, it's $37,000. The motion is in order. Are there any questions or judgments on the motion? Ms. Irvin-Ross: I put forward this motion to provide additional clarity. As members are aware, this reduction is already in effect, and, as noted in the Estimates documents, legislation will need to be enacted to make this reduction law. Mr. Chairperson: Is the committee ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Shall the motion pass? Some Honourable Members: Pass. Mr. Chairperson: The motion is accordingly passed.

Resolution 30.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,250,000 for Housing and Community Development, Administration, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2011. Revised resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Housing and Community Development. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next department? Agreed? [Agreed] Committee recess. The committee recessed at 11:10 a.m. ____________ The House resumed at 11:12 a.m. SPORT Mr.

Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of Sport. Does the honourable minister have an opening comment–statement? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister responsible for Sport): Yes, Mr. Chair, very briefly.

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 903 It's my privilege to introduce the 2010-2011 Departmental Estimates for Sport. In recent weeks the sports community in the province of Manitoba has enjoyed some very worthy attention on several fronts. I think the member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler) would join me in acknowledging the tremendous efforts put on by our Olympians and Paralympians that took

part in the Vancouver Olympics very recently. I know that six of our fellow provincial citizens, Manitoba citizens, found their way to the podium, including a gold medal performance by Jonathan Toews and Jennifer Botterill with the hockey teams, the men's and women's respectively, and, of course, Jon Montgomery of Russell who won gold in the skeleton event. And, of course, Cindy Klassen could not reach the podium this time around because of injuries that she has sustained over time. Her teammate, however, Clara Hughes, did make it to cap off her career. And we're very, very proud of the efforts of these athletes.

On April 13th, of course, the member for Springfield joined other members, including myself, in honouring the athletes as our special guests in the Manitoba Legislature. And I wanted to say how grateful I was for him and the official opposition's presence at that event last week–or earlier this week. Not all the excitement occurred in Vancouver. Mr. Chairperson, 2010, of course, will continue to be a very significant year in sport for our province. In April–on April 15th Sport Manitoba officially opened phase 1 of their new home on–at 145 Pacific Avenue.

Phase 1 will be housing the offices along with the meeting space for Sport Manitoba and 75 amateur sport organizations in our province. The Sport for Life Centre will also be the hub for promoting and developing amateur sport throughout Manitoba and it'll be a vital resource for sport in downtown Winnipeg. As well, in May of this year, Brandon will be playing host to the Memorial Cup Junior Hockey Championship and the city of Dauphin will be hosting the Royal Bank Cup National Junior A Hockey Championship. We look forward to those two events.

Junior hockey is one of Canada's most watched sports, and these two events will have a significant economic as well as social impact with two cities and for the province of Manitoba. And our government is providing support to both these events. As well, 2010 will be an exciting time for sport in Manitoba as efforts continue with plans to host a first-ever World Indigenous Nations Games here in Winnipeg in 2012.

This past February, the dream of establishing the World Indigenous Nations Games took an important step forward when we signed a memorandum of understanding with the Province and WIN Sport International, the governing body of the–for the Games. So I'm very pleased that, even though we're faced with some tough eco nomic challenges at this time, that these Estimates provide for sustained funding levels to support Manitoba and the Team Canada Volleyball Centre. So, with those few rema rks, Mr. Chairperson, I am open to questions, or perhaps the member has also an opening address. Mr.

Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition–honourable member for Springfield have any opening comments? Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Yes, and if I were to say to this committee that I live and breathe sport and have done so for almost 10 years, that would be an understatement. I think I've mentioned to the minister and members before–last Sunday, I think I spent six hours either at games or on fields watching my kids practise or play sports. So sports is definitely a big part of our life, which is ironic because I was not heavily involved in sports myself.

It's often that your children are the opposite of what you were, and I am now the sports expert. I keep telling other parents on the sports fields that I'm one of the best soccer moms around and proud of it. And it's a great thing to see young kids, young children, out developing physically. We've got great school systems where they develop academically and great religious institutions where they can develop spiritually and so on and so forth, but it's important that we have institutions and places for kids to get their energy out and do it in a very organized and important way.

One of the things that I have noticed over the last 10, 15 years of my career is there seems to be a real disconnect between elected officials and sports.

904 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 And I would say that's from school board, civic, provincial and federal level. And I think one of the things we realized when we watched the Vancouver Olympics, and the minister certainly referenced them, is that the federal government–and so did provincial governments, but in the federal government put forward, I believe it was 105 million for the Own the Podium program, which was criticized, strangely enough, by England, that's going to be hosting the next Olympics.

And I suspect that was a little bit of making sure that our Olympics didn't sound as good as they were–because they were outstanding–because they were a little bit concerned on how theirs might turn out, so there was a little bit of that. But, if you were to sit back and reflect on the money that was spent on the Olympics, we could've taken $105 million and spent it on more politicians.

And I'm probably going out on a limb here, but I don't know if the country would be more unified with $105-million worth of more politicians than we were those weeks of the Olympics, where we watched our athletes from every corner of the province, every kind of sport out there, working hard, doing their best for their country, an d when they won, the glee and the happiness with which they would hold up the Canadian flag.

And I'm not the biggest hockey player or know everything about hockey, but the last five minutes of the men's hockey game when they eventually ended up scoring and winning, I mean, those were just unbelievable moments for the nation. * (11:20) And everywhere you drive in the city you still see, you know, things about–the country's more unified because of the Vancouver Olympics and, you know, on and on and on. And I think it's a message to us as elected officials, and it's a message to all politicians, that every dime, every dollar that you put into sport, you're actually building the nation.

And, you know, I think we invest in a lot of things and think that we're nation building and we're not. Actually, I would suggest to you that that money was well spent, and I commend the provincial government for the monies that they put into amateur sport leading up to the Vancouver Olympics. Those were dollars well spent. And we know for a fact that we have the largest generation of youth obesity facing us as human–as ever in humankind. It's the largest wave coming at us, and you can add on to that youth diabetes, as well.

And I think one of the ways that we should be dealing with that issue is by spending good money on sports. And so I'm very excited to be the critic for Sport and very interested in going through the Estimates. The minister has been very generous, and I appreciate that, with mentioning the fact I've made it out to different organizations and different events and those are important and they're great to be at. And I certainly look forward to spending a bit of time talking about sports and sports-related issues here in the province of Manitoba. So we'd be prepared to move on to the Estimates. Mr.

Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff in attendance. Mr. Robinson: I'm joined by the Deputy Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, which the Department of Sport falls under, Mr. Harvey Bostrom. I'm also joined by Mr. Dave Paton, Director of Finance for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Tourism, which also has certain responsibilities for the Department of Sport. And we have Mr.

Mike Benson, the Acting Director of the sports directorate for the Department of Sport. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Introduction of Guests Mr. Chairperson: I would like to draw the committee's attention to the public gallery, where we have visiting today grade 6 students from École Dieppe under the direction of Danielle Peloquin and Carlee Delorme. Among these grade 6 students is Emma Carey, daughter of our Committee Clerk, Rick Yarish. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. * * * Mr. Chairperson: The floor is open for questions. Mr.

Schuler: Before we get into the official part of Estimates, I do want to welcome all the students here today, in particular, Emma. Great to see you here. Your dad's a great guy who works hard for us, and, like I say, as long as he keeps his truck away from my car in the parking lot, we have a lot in common

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 905 and often we've talked about our kids together, and it's always with great pride that we talk about our children. And, interestingly enough, today we're going to be talking about sports in Manitoba and the minister and I will talking about it. So, great to have you here, great to have students, you know, at all times, but particular when we have Emma here to see a little bit what her dad does. So, great to have all of you here. Mr.

Robinson: I want to join my colleague, the member for Springfield, in welcoming the young boys and girls and the future Olympians, I'm sure, and future leaders. In time I'm sure that the member for Springfield and I will be put out to retire and you'll be taking the leadership roles as our future leaders here in the province of Manitoba. Yesterday, I know that the member for Springfield and I had the opportunity of attending and honouring–which honoured a man that was 101 years old and honoured for–he took up swimming, I believe, at the age of 80, and we got to see this man and were very fascinated.

And in our culture as Canadians, generally, the two most sacred elements of any society are the children and the elders. So I think that it's very fitting that you are here today to witness some of the things that you'll probably–you may want to do in the future, and I commend the chaperones as well and the school for bringing the children to see how the government of Manitoba works. Thank you so much. Mr. Schuler: I thank the minister for those comments. Actually, the guy who is 101 years old told us yesterday he's never taken a pill and he's never had surgery until today.

He was going in for knee replacement surgery. And, you know what? One of the piece of advice he gave us, one of the things you should always do, is breathe deep, strangely enough, I mean–and who's going to argue with a guy who's 101 years old, right? He said, you know, when you're outside breathe deep, get a lot of oxygen into your lungs and a lot of oxygen into your bloodstream. Oh, and by the way, he walked onto the stage and he walked off the stage. So, like, we're not talking a decrepit old man. He actually was in good shape and spoke well. So there's a piece of advice for all of us, breathe deep.

Minister, time to breathe deep. I have a question for the minister, and that–there was–and I'm quoting: The deputy ministers for each province and territory have been meeting and working collectively to establish key priorities and strategies to address these goals and will present their plan to the ministers in August of 2009. And that would be a report on–I wanted–the minister’s probably going to ask me–a physical activity and inactivity. It was a group of deputy ministers that were supposed to get together. Is that report done, and is it possible for this committee to get a copy of that report? Mr.

Robinson: Yes, I'm familiar with what the minister or the member from Springfield is talking about. When we met as ministers, the last meeting was held in Charlottetown prior to the Canada Summer Games last year.

There's been ongoing work, of course, at the deputy ministers' level with other jurisdictions, provinces and territories nationwide, and one of the subcommittees of the table of federal-provincial-territorial ministers, of course, is the deputy ministers’ interprovincial working group, and one of the areas that they addressed is the physical inactivity of some of our Canadian children, and the member pointed out some of the challenges that we 're faced with–obesity and the lack of wellness among many of our young people in the province of Manitoba–earlier in his earlier remarks, and that's one of the areas that we need to address.

One of the challenges that the ministers responsible for recreation and sport committed to about five years ago–and that was the need to increase physical activity nationwide by 10 percent, and I believe that the deadline for that was some two years ago, and we did achieve that in order to make Canadians more physically active, and we still have a great deal of work to do in achieving even higher numbers and ensuring that Canadians are active in either recreational pursuits or any kind of physical activities.

So the interprovincial committee continues to work, and the next meeting is scheduled for 2011, I believe, that the Sports ministers are going to be meeting, but the working groups on physical activity and other such subcommittees continue to carry on with the work, Mr. Chair, and I can report to the member that this work is ongoing, and I believe that he and I share the view that, indeed, the target and the goal is to make Canadians more active and healthy, and ultimately that is the goal. Mr. Schuler: Was there ever a key priorities and strategy report written? And it was supposed to be

906 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 done by August 2009. Was that ever completed, and is it possible to get a copy of that? * (11:30) Mr. Robinson: I'll avail myself to see what we have available. I know that there's been progress reports made on physical activity, and I will ensure that the– my office forwards a copy of any updated reports to the member for his consideration and for his reading. Mr. Schuler: And that came out of the Active Healthy Kids Canada. You know, when you look at some of the physical activity levels, they gave it an F, you know.

Organized sport and physical activity participation, you know, was a C. Active transporta- tion, D, that means, you know, riding and walking to school. I mean it really paints a grim picture of our children and their physical activity. And I think this is something that has to concern all of us, whether we have active children or not, and I would say to the minister, and far be it for me to brag about my children, because, you know, I would never want to be caught doing that at committee or in the House. That having been said, all three of my children are involved in way too much sport, I think.

I think sometimes I question my sanity when I'm driving from pillar to post, but that doesn't matter. I mean, the fact that my kids are actively involved in sports, there are many, and I think one of the numbers here is like eight–the proportion of children–youth meeting the guidelines increased from 9 percent in 2005 to 13 percent in 2007. Like– we–you know, Houston, we have a problem.

And, you know, I certainly take great interest in that, and we know that there's a lot of societal reasons why, and this has to be part of the greater debate that we have, in fact, to the disconnect between elected officials in sport. You know, maybe this is one of those things that we should be, you know, raising with our colleagues and out there talking to, you know, whether it's school boards or municipal leaders, you know, other MLAs and MPs that, you know, there is a way to mitigate a crisis in health care coming at us, and that's going to be dealing with sport.

And I know the minister has been doing that, and he's been doing a good job on it. So any–if I could see that report, I would love to and just educate myself with it. I would really appreciate it and, you know, I would say to the minister, although I'm on the ground floor when it comes to sports and spend a lot of time, and I certainly don't have the access to the incredible studies that he would and just educate myself, would be, you know, for myself would be very helpful. Anyway, I appreciate the minister indicating that he would be prepared to do that.

The next issue I did want to talk to the minister about, and that has to do with the whole infrastructure issue within the city and across the province. And in the late '60s, early '70s, there were a lot of facilities that were built, and they were built by federal, provincial and municipal governments because of different anniversaries, Canada and provincial.

And we now have a report out from the City of Winnipeg, and I was wondering, could the minister give us some comments on what his thoughts are with the kind of state that our infrastructure is, and this is one is, in particular, is about arenas, about the state of our infrastructure in the province. Mr. Robinson: One of the first things that I did when I became the Minister responsible for Sport some years ago, was discussion with the other ministers and our federal government.

Since then, of course, we've had a number of ministers responsible for Sport and, maybe one of the problems that we have at the national level is we don't have a champion that can push forth some of the requirements and some of the desires that we as provincial sport ministers have. But I would have to say that we do have an infrastructure deficit in the province of Manitoba. Many of the recreational facilities and the sport facilities that the member for Springfield refers to were built around the year of the Centennial–1967. Many of them are outdated. Many of them require some upgrades.

And I asked the other sports ministers and territorial ministers to join with me in calling on the federal government to bring about a separate infrastructure project to deal with the recreational and sport facilities that need upgrading. Some of our facilities in the province of Manitoba, the member knows, require some immediate attention. Some of them have been condemned because of the no-accessibility for wheelchairs, as one example, the fire hazards at some of these facilities bring to the general public.

So those are some of the areas that I identified because I've had the opportunity of travelling and visiting many communities in western Manitoba: Boissevain, Brandon. I've heard the same complaints in northern communities, and it's sad to say that many northern communities don't even have an

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 907 indoor facility for recreational activity. And that's probably where we need the most help in terms of recreational activities and promoting the whole notion of having healthy populations. So the member is quite correct that there, in my estimation, that there appears to be some deficiencies on recreational facilities throughout the province of Manitoba, and in the city of–even though, having said that, we have made attempts to upgrade the facility in Dauphin and Thompson and The Pas, as well. And I'm very proud of the improvements that have been made there.

There's some improvements and joint arrangements with the municipal governments and the federal government on the other requirements that are needed in the city of Winnipeg, obviously. There was–I read in one of the newspapers, very recently, the requirement of certain recreational facilities in the province–or in the city of Winnipeg. And I have to agree that we have to start paying some attention to some of these, but I think that it requires the political will of all three levels of government, whether it's municipal, federal and provincial.

We need to bring the minds together and ensure that the recreational needs of our fellow citizens are met, and especially the facilities which, in some cases, pose a risk to the general public whether they're fire-hazard risks or accessibility. We have to make sure that we do the due diligence that is required to ensure that we have proper facilities in the province of Manitoba for our recreational facilities. Mr. Schuler: I'm sure the minister has heard this argument: Well, you know, the rinks were just fine when I was growing up. What's wrong with them today?

Or the minister probably hears about northern communities: Didn't we just build them a rink, you know, 20, 30 years ago? Right? And they probably were magnificent facilities back then. And when, you know, you were using them 20, 30 years ago, or 40 years ago, they were gr eat facilities. But, like everything else, they get old. And I think that's one of the things that we've sort of lost sight of. I–each of us probably owned our own home or apartment. You know full well if you're not upgrading your home or apartment every 15 to 20 years, they end up getting dated and the costs then just start to compound.

They get more and more expensive the longer you wait with upgrading. And that's what's happened, I think, with a lot of these facilities till we get to the point–and I know the minister probably has the report in front of him. They list a whole series of arenas, and the best that comes out of the lot, I think, is Sam Southern and St. James Civic, which actually get a three out of five, and the rest are either ones or twos. And that is really con cerning, especially when we're trying to get young people excited in sports.

It always amazed me, as a young person, and maybe it's just–it was just a sign that I was definitely cut out for politics, but I would go into churches, for instance, and there'd be these magnificent buildings just, you know, cathedrals and even churches here in the city, and they'd have these great, great buildings and lovely, and I loved being in them. And then you'd want to go to Sunday school and they'd stick you in the basement. And I always used to think, you know, everybody always said, well, you guys are the future, and they always stuck the future in the basement.

And now you see the new design of churches coming out. We have these beautiful educational wings and we try to make, you know, it a much different experience for our young people when they attend church or otherwise. * (11:40) Well, the same thing would apply with sports facilities. And I was in the East St. Paul arena, and you sort of walk in through the front, and you know what? A magnificent lobby, I'm sure, 30 or 40 years ago. And I don't want to offend my council or my councillors but, you know, it's a little grim when you walk in there.

And we need to make these facilities not just be new and safe and all the rest of it, but they also have to be appealing places for young people to go. I mean, just because, you know, we got the best 15 or 20 or 40 years out of it, you know, it doesn't mean that our children now should be satisfied with it. I think that's one of the problems that we face. That it's got to be something that not just, you know, sort of passes and, well, you should be happy with what you have. I mean, we should be looking at places that (

a) the kids feel safe in and that are places where young people wish to go. And I believe that this has a definite justice component to it and I think it has a human services component to it as well. I think, you know, if you can make these places some place that young people want to go, you do keep them off the street. I want to share with the committee a small story and then I pass it back to the minister for his comments. My youngest daughter was a U9 soccer

908 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 player and had only played in some of the older soccer pitches. And then, on a Saturday at 10 o'clock, two months into the indoor season, she was told we were going to play at the University of Manitoba soccer pitch. So the next morning, got her up–this is my little Corina–and got her breakfast and I said, so how did you sleep? And she said, well, you know, I didn't sleep very good, dad. I said, oh, well, that's not good, you have this game, you're not feeling good or whatever? She said, oh, no, no, no, not that. She said, dad, we're playing at the U of M today.

And it was really one of the most interesting things to see, you know, this team of little girls walking onto the soccer pitch at the University of Manitoba. It was like arriving at the Taj Mahal–like, wow, and they're, its big and it's new and it's, you know, all–it was just such a fantastic experience for them. That's the kind of experience we have to give young people because (

a) we need to get them involved at 4, 5 and 6 years old, but then we also have to keep them in sports to keep them healthy. And it's those kinds of facilities–and I know we can't build those kinds of facilities everywhere in the province and, you know, there are probably remote locations where it's not reasonable or feasible to build that kind of a large facility, but they have to be facilities that young people feel safe in, that they're proud to be playing in there. And I–you know, again, far be it from me to use committee time to brag about it, yet the girls did win that game.

And, you know, it just–it brings a different play. They're different athletes. And we know from the way Canada performed at the recent Winter Olympics, is that just that it happened? No, it's because money was put in, facilities were provided, there's a lot of pride, you know, and it goes on and on and on. And that's how we're going to get our young people engaged in sport. So I appreciate the minister and the fact that he's been trying to raise this and I don't know if he wishes to comment on this and then I'd be prepared to move on to the next topic.

But it certainly is a passion of mine, and I look forward to working with the minister on these projects and I turn it over to the minister for comment. Mr. Robinson: Well, I certainly share some of the views of the member for Springfield on–particularly on the infrastructure deficit that we have on recreational and–recreational facilities and arenas throughout the province of Manitoba. There's a lot of work that has to be done. We've been trying to engage the national government, through successive governments now, to initiate a project strictly aimed at trying to address that one issue, as I said earlier.

We have, in spite of that– those attempts, which sometimes feels like they're futile, we have been able to get some of the facilities upgraded and in some place –in some cases, replaced entirely, for our fellow citizens to use in recreational pursuits and sporting activities. The MTS Iceplex, which is going to be a multiuse building, is opening up in Headingley. It's scheduled to open in the fall. It's going to be a four- rink complex and we look forward to that. But certainly that's one initiative that took some political will from the R.M. and the City–or pardon me, the Province and the federal government.

So that, indeed, is a step forward. There are many other communities that have the population that substantiates a facility for them to warrant the need for a recreational facility, but don't have one. Recently, we helped out a community in northern Manitoba, a community that's been in the news a lot, and that's the Shamattawa community, in upgrading their arena, which was built, but never used. As a result, the building was faced with mould and the ice skating that was to have occurred there never occurred, and, over years, just dilapidated.

And then it was upgraded very recently at a very reasonable cost–in my opinion–with the help of the provincial government and the federal government, jointly. And we were able to open the facility this past winter, Mr. Chairperson, and we're very proud of that. Another important initiative has been through the work of the Winnipeg Aboriginal Sports Achievement Centre, WASAC, as they call it, the acronym W-A-S-A-C.

They ha ve been successful in motivating a lot of our young people into activities and take them away from high-risk activities and, perhaps, one would say, activities that are not acceptable in society–gang activities and the like. So they've been able to take them away from that and engage them in some activities in the city of Winnipeg, and the Aboriginal youth, particularly in the city of Winnipeg, have been engaged in a lot of activities. And they've been able to work outside of Winnipeg as well. Their focus has not only been in the city of Winnipeg, but, indeed, they have worked

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 909 in places like Shamattawa, Pauingassi, Duck Bay and Pine Creek, and also in the Allan Lake community as part of their outreach. And a key motivator in that has been a great young man that I view as a champion, indeed, Kevin Chief, and I have a lot of respect for Kevin and the work that he has done. As well, after the North American Indigenous Games were held here in Winnipeg in 2002, the number of people joining sporting activities increased dramatically, and we're very proud of that.

And I mentioned at the outset as well, too, the tremendous opportunities that we have in engaging world–the World Indigenous Nations Games that I was telling the member about. We look forward to the world coming to the city of Winnipeg in 2012 and having the city of Wi nnipeg again play host to that. Now, back in 1999, 2002, for the World Indigenous Games, the Pan Am Games in 1999, and any activity that requires volunteers, Winnipeg and Manitoba have always been tremendous in extending their volunteerism.

And I'm very proud of our fellow citizens in that regard, and I know they'll step to the plate again in 2012 when the first ever World Indigenous Nations Games comes to the city of Winnipeg. As a matter of fact, the Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, which oper ates as an organ of the United Nations, will be meeting next week in New York City with roughly 1,800 delegates and 75 countries attending. And they have asked the province of Manitoba to be a part of that to talk about the World Indigenous Nations Games, but, moreover, to talk about why we are trying to place emphasis on recreation and sport.

And I think it's quite evident that why we're trying to do this is to address some of these social ills that we as a society here in Manitoba are faced with, whether it's gang activity or whether it's the whole issue of missing and murdered Aboriginal women, and women generally. Those are the areas of why we're trying to engage young people and people generally into recreational and sporting pursuits. * (11:50) And the member correctly points out–using his children as an example–we have to have our children interested in other areas, and I commend the member for Springfield (Mr.

Schu ler) for being the good parent that he is in ensuring that his children have every opportunity. Regrettably, not all our citizens in the province of Manitoba have that opportunity to become engaged in recreational and sporting activities that are organized and, as a result, fall into activities that are not good for them and good for the community in many northern and remote areas and even in the city of Winnipeg.

So I commend him for being the parent that he is and I'm sure that he encour ages his children as well, even though that becomes a full-time occupation as well, at the same time representing the good people of the province of Manitoba and the good people of Springfield. But there are things that are expected of us as parents. As our children are younger, we need to obviously engage our young people but, moreover, the other children in society have to also be encouraged. So in a roundabout way I hope I've covered some of the areas that the member for Springfield has pointed out.

And, firstly, the infrastructure deficit that we are faced within the province of Manitoba, nobody will argue that point for a moment and I think that there's a lot of work that we have to do, Mr. Chair. We have an infrastructure deficit in terms of recreational facilities in the city of Winnipeg, outside of Winnipeg, and in rural and northern Manitoba. Indeed, the need is tremendous and the work has to carry on. Mr. Schuler: The minister mentioned a very interesting project and an outstanding young man, and I want to reference both of those.

With the–and I'm going to get it wrong and I apologise to Mark Chipman already for it–the MTS sportsplex. I think I got it right. I had the opportunity to meet with him, and it's an interesting concept and I don't know if the minister is, and his department, are watching it closely. It really is a private-public partnership where the federal government put in, I believe, $5 million, the provincial government put in $5 million and, then, Mr. Chipman put in $17 million. And in my discussions with him, he said, on that basis, it then becomes a viable project.

And here are four pieces of ice and, really, you need one Zamboni, you need one plant to keep the ice going in four rinks, you have one HVAC system, you have one set of staff, you have one canteen. And you take any one of the arenas listed in that list by the city of Winnipeg, the plants are getting old. I don't know what kind of ice cleanin g machines they have. They're getting old. You know, on and on and on.

910 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 And it's an interesting concept. Is that something that the minister is, with the department, looking at as perhaps a model on a go-forward basis. Mr. Robinson: Yes, Mr. Chair, of course, we support the vision of people like Mark Chipman. That's why they're leaders in the community as they are, and I think that the wo rk that they are doing is very important. The MTS Centre that I referenced earlier, as well the True North Entertainment Centre.

It's one of the examples of what we can do when we put our minds together as government representatives or the private sector, and engaging the national government to do these initiatives, but getting some buy-in at the same time from–whether it be unions or other groups like that to ensure that there are opportunities that we build a facility. But it needs maintenance and the member referenced that earlier in our comments when we started this portion of Estimates.

But the iceplex that I referred to at Headingley is something that's been championed by the community for quite some time, and the provincial and national governments are coming forward to support that initiative in the community of Headingley, and we look forward to that opening. But it's more than just the facility, the upkeep, the integrity of the building has to be maintained, and the member correctly pointed out, I couldn't have put it any–in a better way myself, that one of the things that we need is constant upkeep, whether we own a home or not.

We have to continue doing upgrades to ensure that its lifespan is expanded. And one could look at a body. We're told in many cultures that a body is a temple and we have to take care of our bodies in order for it to last. And a great example of that was a gentleman that was 101 years old yesterday, of how we should take care of our bodies, and it may not–certainly, my body doesn't look like a temple, Mr. Chair. But the important thing is that we have to maintain the upkeep, and we have to ensure that the work, the diligence required to upkeep the buildings are there, and these partnerships that Mr.

Chipman has been able to embark upon are truly commendable. And I think that we should look to his example as we go forward on several fronts, that this is one example that we can draw upon. The MTS Centre is one example of what partnerships can accomplish, and I think that the member for Springfield will agree with me that a number of concerts have been used for the facility, cultural activities, the Manito Ahbee Festival in early November is another example, and, of course, the home of the Manitoba Moose.

So we–and, of course, having said that, we wish them well in their current series with the Hamilton Bulldogs; I believe game 2 is tomorrow. So, having said that, we have many initiatives that–and we have good people in the city of Winnipeg, good leaders from the private sector and we draw upon them for their expertise and their thoughts.

And I know I have not heard the outcome of the Premier's Economic Advisory Committee summit that was held in the last couple days; I just heard highlights, but, indeed, that they have some recommendations for this province to improve and continue improving the lifestyle that we all enjoy to a degree here. I'm not saying that things are perfect in the province of Manitoba for one moment; there are still many challenges that we have to overcome.

And we are committed to ensuring that this one area that the member talks about trying to facilitate discussions and trying to facilitate round table dialogue on how best we can address these issues is the way to go, and I certainly want to take his comments and use those as perhaps direction for this government to pursue. Mr.

Schuler: The minister also mentioned Kevin Chief, who I had the opportunity to share a lot of time with and a great latte–I had my favourite latte at Starbucks–and I think we enjoyed our time together immensely and had a really good chat on the kinds of things that he's doing, certainly in the Aboriginal community and with inner-city youth, and that's his focus. And it was Mark Chipman that I–when I'd spoken to him–he's working very closely with Kevin Chief in what he's trying to accomplish. And one of the things that we discussed was we have to go to these young people who (

a) are looking at gangs or, more importantly, those that are in gangs, and we have to tell them, you know what we'd like you to do is we'd like to get you out of your gang and to join our gang. And our gang, by the way, is better, is smarter and will get you a lot further than your gang. And that's organized sports. I mean, if you play on a hockey team–you can call it a gang if you want–but it's a hockey team. You know, we use the puck and nets, and that's how we score and move ahead of others and we actually develop our bodies and our minds. And the minister

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 911 will know that youth who are involved in sports score better academically, and we somehow have to convince those young people that where they're going is really taking them nowhere and that what they have to do is they have to be part of a team, whether it's soccer, whether it's basketball, volleyball, hockey, whatever it is.

And the model that Kevin Chief has set up is a very interesting model, and we had a really good talk and, you know, once in awhile you do sort of touch on politics and the–you know, I looked at him as young guy who just defies narrow political definition. I mean, he's just an amazingly bright individual. And I know the minister's had a lot of opportunity to spend time with him and probably mentor him in some respects and get feedback from Kevin Chief.

And I would say to the minister there's a young individual–if we're looking at developing models of a way to get young people out of gangs, out of their destructive gangs and into our sports gangs where they move forward, I think Kevin is certainly one of those individuals. So I certainly hold Kevin in high regard and look forward to some amazing things coming forward from him in the years to come. * (12:00) In the understanding that we do have to watch our time to a degree, I'd like to move on to some more mundane questions and not the kind of great discussion that we've been having.

I would first of all like to ask the minister: In the last budget year, what was his ministerial travel, like how many trips did he have and at what costs would those trips have come at? Mr.

Robinson: Yes, I attended the ministers responsible for Sport federal-provincial-territorial meeting in Charlottetown, New Brunswick, prior to the Canada Summer Games in the month of August, as well as–the travel that's not been printed yet, of course, is the Olympics, for the opening of–any opening activities there, with the opening of Manitoba house, and the conclusion of the Olympics that were held recently in Vancouver, so that'll appear in time. But the travel expenses would be those three trips. Mr. Schuler: Could the minister tell us, on those three trips, who travelled with him?

An Honourable Member: On the– Mr. Chairperson: Honourable minister. Mr. Robinson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize. On the trip to Charlottetown, I was accompanied by–and the trips, the two trips to the Vancouver Olympics–by the special assistant that I have is Jean-Marc Prevost. Mr. Schuler: So the minister only travelled with one other individual? Mr. Robinson: Yes, because the staff that are required for these activities were travelling under other budgets, so I don't feel it necessary for me to report it at this committee. Mr.

Schuler: Did the minister travel at all where the department paid for his travel expenses? Mr. Robinson: Yes, the three trips I identified will be what will be presented. I believe that the entire cost of the trip to Charlottetown was $1,100, and the two trips to Vancouver have yet to be calculated. Mr. Schuler: And those costs would be for the minister's travel alone, not those who accompanied him, correct? Mr. Robinson: Yes, that's correct , Mr. Chair. And, of course, the member knows that these costs are posted on the Internet every quarter.

January to the March travel will be posted on–I guess it'll be in the month of May. And all the expenses have yet to be processed on what I just told this committee. Mr. Schuler: And again, I just want to be really clear. Did the minister travel at any time where the department picked up the cost of the travel? Mr. Robinson: Yes, the trips were charged to the Department of Sport for the three trips that I've reported to this committee. Mr. Schuler: Okay, and I just–again, I just always like to be really clear–so there were only three trips ever taken and the department never paid for any other trips? Mr.

Robinson: Yes, Mr. Chair, that's correct. Mr. Schuler: And the departmental staff on those trips. How many departmental staff travelled with the minister? Mr. Robinson: The trip that I was taking to Charlottetown included the director of recreational services for the Department of Culture, Heritage, Tourism and Sport at that time, and as well as the deputy minister, and it also had as part of our delegation the CEO of Sport Manitoba, which is an

912 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 arm's-length agency of government which delivers the sports delivery system in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Jeff Hnatiuk accompanied us, and Mr. Hnatiuk, of course, has played a pivotal role in promoting amateur sport in the province of Manitoba. With the trip to the Olympics, it was staff that were already there, including Mr. Benson, that were part of the Olympic secretariat that we had permanently located in that city during the course of the Olympics and Paralympics.

And the meetings that I attended to were facilitated by the secretariat and also by the Protocol Office of the Province of Manitoba. They included meetings with the Canadian Olympic Committee and the four host First Nations that hosted the Olympics and other meetings that were convened for our delegation to be a part of. Mr. Schuler: I thank–the committee thanks the minister for that. Could the minister tell us, were–was any travel by the Premier, or a delegation led by the Premier, ever paid for by his department? Mr. Robinson: No. Mr. Schuler: The committee thanks the minister for that.

Just in the Estimates book–and that is on page 7 out of the blue book–just for clarification, and I haven't been the critic for that long, there is Sport Manitoba and then the Sport Secretariat. Could the minister tell us, where is the Sport Secretariat housed? Mr. Robinson: Yes, we have the–of course, the member will recall, yesterday, we went to the opening of the Sport Manitoba facility on Pacific Avenue, and they have their own staff and, at the same time, representing roughly 80 sporting disciplines to be housed in that facility.

In the Sport Secretariat, which helps facilitate some of the activity of the department, we currently have four employees–or three employees, rather, one director–the acting director, Mr. Benson, a consultant and one administrative assistant in that current department.

So those are the full-time positions that we have, and their job, of course, is to not only maintain a liaison between Sport Manitoba and the Province, but, indeed–within the Province we have several departments that have an interest in the promotion of sporting activities in the province, whether it's Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, Healthy Living or some of these other departments, so it is Mr. Benson's responsibility, along with his staff that he works with, that they ensure that that's properly done. And Mr.

Benson has just assumed that responsibility and I'm very proud of the hard work that he and his staff are doing in promoting recreation and sporting ac tivities and opportunities for the people of Manitoba. Mr. Schuler: Can the minister tell this committee who is the consultant that he referenced within the Sport Secretariat? Mr. Robinson: Yes, the person is Joel Fingard, and he's got an added responsibility of also keeping a close eye on the Manitoba Boxing Commission and what goes on there.

The Manitoba Boxing Commission, of course, the member and I both know that there are some new realities–that simply in the fight game, it's no longer just straight boxing, that there's ultimate fighting. So we want to ensure that we have some eyes that are full time, so Mr. Fingard is engaged in ensuring that that is carried out in the proper way. Mr. Schuler: From what I can tell, the grant that's given to Sport Manitoba didn't increase this year. Is that correct? * (12:10) Mr. Robinson: Yes, Mr.

Chair, that is correct, and one could argue that, with the amount of work that they do, that they deserve an increase, and this government will critically look at the financial status of this organization and, indeed, will make the proper decisions, I hope, in the time to come to ensure that they're able to continue doing the work that is expected of them, not only by government, but by the general public in a proper and adequate way. Mr. Schuler: When was the last time that they received an increase in their budget? Mr.

Robinson: The last time they received an increase in their budget was during the period of 2003-2007, where they got a $1-million increase over that period of time. Mr. Schuler: The addition to the Sport Manitoba building, is that also supposed to be self-funded by Sport Manitoba? Mr. Robinson: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, the Province is providing $16 million in financing the Sport Manitoba's relocation to the east-side Exchange District. The Province is also considering funding options for phase 2, which is very important,

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 913 critically important I think, under the same careful review process that occurs when considering any major capital project of that nature. And the department has worked closely with Sport Manitoba in ensuring that the agency is relocated into an area that will benefit the community the most, and I believe that its current location is a tremendous one, and certainly with the accessibility to the community, along with housing the other important facets of sport, makes it a very fine facility.

And I look forward to working with Jeff Hnatiuk and the board of directors of Sport Manitoba in ensuring that we promote amateur sport continuously in the province of Manitoba. Mr.

Schuler: Yes, a freedom of information request was sent a while ago, and it was asking for the name and position title for all Manitoba government employees working at the Manitoba pavilion in CentrePlace at the 2010 Vancouver Olympic Games, the compensation paid each Manitoba government employee working at CentrePlace during the Vancouver Olympics, broken down by salary, accommodation expense, travel expenses and other incidental expenses. The minister referenced that that has been delayed. Why is there a delay on the expense report, and when does the minister think that the information will be forthcoming? Mr.

Robinson: Yes, I'm familiar with the request, and the information is still being put together–the Olympics and following the Olympics, of course, started the Paralympics, and our pavilion was one of the only pavilions, in fact, the only provincial or territorial pavilion to remain opened during the course of the Paralympics. So it's, been very recent speaking–relatively speaking, that we actually brought home the staff that were involved with the Olympic and Paralympic activities in Vancouver, including Mr. Benson, who joins with me in this Estimates process this morning.

So the report will be, I would think, in–within the next 60 days will be completed and sent to the proper people that requested the information through FIPPA and be granted the information that they so desire. Mr. Schuler: Yes, and the minister also referenced the Boxing Commission, and my question to the minister is, what is the government's position on ultimate fighting, boxing or similar activities in the province of Manitoba? Mr.

Robinson: Well, one of the–it is–initially when the sport itself was introduced in the province of Manitoba, and, of course, I didn't think at that time that the sport would become so popular as it is, not only in Canada, but all over the world. And it's really taken over, I think, the attention of the glamour sport, I would call, of straight boxing. In some places it's regarded as a risk, and that is why we have asked the Manitoba Boxing Commission to take special measures that these don't take place in underground settings, that they be regulated. And that's what the Boxing Commission has attempted to do.

We have no control if an event is to occur in a hotel, as an example, or a tavern, which has happened in our experience in the province of Manitoba, certainly not regulated by any governing body. We have three very capable people at the Manitoba Boxing Commission. The chairperson is Dan Vandal, and his commissioners are Mr.

Robert Tapper and Rosemary Broadbent, and these three people regulate the–or ensure that the Boxing Commission is conducted in a fashion where it's–I would say that the No. 1 priority of this Boxing Commission is to ensure the safety of participants in these combat activities, and, of course, one of the priorities is in the area of straight boxing and onward to the ultimate fighting, which is becoming hugely popular throughout the nation and globally, I would say. Mr. Schuler: Yeah, the Premier of Ontario has taken a very hard line against ultimate fighting and has indicated he's banning it outright.

I take it that's not this government's position? Mr. Robinson: Not at the current time. I mean, if the Manitoba Boxing Commission deems it appropriate for them to set up some red flags about the safety of the sport itself, then, obviously, the government will take a look–a hard look at it and make a decision henceforth. But the–so far we've been lucky in the province of Manitoba that there's been no deaths occurring from the sport itself.

There has been some injuries and, granted, that's one of the risks that occur in combat or at least hand-to-hand combat activities like boxing or ultimate fighting or wrestling, for that matter.

914 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 So these are things that are closely monitored by the Manitoba Boxing Commission, and we are looking to them for advice. If, indeed, it becomes a time in our history that we have to examine and have a look at it, then we will gladly do that. Mr. Schuler: I thank the minister for the great segue way. He mentioned injuries and I appreciate his frankness on the ultimate fighting.

I do want to also raise the issue of boards when it comes to soccer pitches, and as soccer was developing we had a hybrid between a pseudo- hockey, soccer kind of a game, and over the last 11 years that I've been involved with soccer, I've noticed that there's an awful lot of injuries when children are playing with boards in soccer pitches. And I'm talking about three facilities in particular.

That would be the Garden City community club, Gateway community club and then Coverall in Headingley. * (12:20) And I understand that there is now a move afoot, and I've sent a letter to the club indicating that I think it's a health issue. And I think the federal government, under the infrastructure program, is putting new turf in at–we call it the Seven Oaks soccer pitch, but it's actually Garden City Community Club, and it looks like they're going to be taking on the boards. And there is a Community Places grant in that I know the–Dave Chomiak, the MLA for the area, is looking at.

Has the department looked at boards in soccer pitches? Has it come up on the radar screen? I don't know if the minister has taken a position on it. Mr. Robinson: That's an initiative that I'll have to check with Sport Manitoba staff and I will be asking the CEO, Jeff Hnatiuk, to respond directly to the member. I'll certainly raise the issue that the member just raised. With what he tells me, it does concern me as well, about the safety factors involved. So I will raise that with Mr. Hnatiuk and have Mr.

Hnatiuk respond the member or, indeed, it would serve more purpose to have a meeting or a briefing with the activities at Sport Manitoba and the member for Springfield, I'll certainly avail myself to ensuring that that occurs. Mr. Schuler: I've referenced in previous discussions the University of Manitoba soccer pitch. And, with the development of that soccer pitch, I think everybody realized that you can actually play real soccer indoors. And it's sort of like the light bulb went on, and everybody said, well, wait a minute, so why are we playing off the boards?

And it's not–to me it isn't an issue as much as it’s not real soccer, is I have been at games–let me put it to the minister this way, once you get over 11 or 12 years old, I don't know if I've been at a game when there hasn't been, whether a minor injury or a major injury, at a soccer pitch where there are boards. And it was interesting. I spoke to one of the presidents of the club and he said to me, well, nobody's ever, ever raised that with me before. And I said, well, no, we carry the kids out the back door and they go to Seven Oaks Hospital.

You know, we don't run to the club president when the kid's writhing on the floor because they injured their leg or injured their shoulder. You don't go to the community club president with that; you go to the hospital with it. And, actually, I think this is a health-care issue. And I said to the club and I've said to all those involved, you know, the day somebody breaks their back or their neck by going into those boards cause, remember, you don't have the padding of a hockey player, and yet you're playing basically the same sport.

And when you have two 12-year-olds–and I would suggest to the minister and I know he's got children as well, and when you, you know, you're pumping down the field and it's easy to bump into the player next to you. And I've seen it over and over and over again where the other kid goes into the boards. And I would even go so far as to tell the minister that I've spoken to coaches and they have indicated to me that they've lost up to three players in a season because of boards.

And it's just–it's really become one of those things of mine that I just–I suffer watching soccer games when they’re playing with boards because I cringe when the kid's going through those boards. And I have helped carry children out of soccer pitches and into vehicles, and they've been driven to hospitals. And if the minister would ever give me the time, I would pick him up in my vehicle and I'll buy him one of my favourite lattes, and I'll drive him to a soccer pitch and we coul d sit and watch. And I guarantee the minister, there will be an injury.

And I'll just put a little pitch in for Seven Oaks soccer complex. They also have the best fries in the city.

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 915 But, the boards, minist er, the boards have to come out. And I think we have them out of Seven Oaks and then the next one's going to be–going after Gateway. Minister, the injuries are just appalling. Many kids have stopped playing soccer because the boards–anyway, I leave that issue with him. And I have one other little one, and I don't know if he wants to comment. Mr.

Robinson: I am going to read Hansard and get the detailed information that the member has provided for us, and we will formulate a letter, my department, with my signature, and write a letter to Soccer Manitoba for their–to bring this matter to their attention. Certainly, I think that what the member describes is quite alarming and I am prepared to work with him in addressing this problem we have collectively. Mr.

Schuler: And I'll peruse Hansard as well and see if the minister's going to take me up on that, the latte and a soccer game, but I'll have a good read through and see if he actually took me up on that one. My last question is with the stadium. Did the minister have any personal involvement in the decision making on the new stadium proposed for the University of Manitoba? Mr. Robinson: No, I didn't have any personal dealings on the stadium issue but, obviously, as being a part of the government that supports it, I wholeheartedly endorse it because I believe it's good for the community.

It's going to be a facility that'll cater to many needs in the community and I think it's a tremendous asset to the city of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba. Mr. Schuler: And am I to understand that in the winter months they're looking at putting a covered dome over the playing field? Mr. Robinson: Yes, to my understanding, that's part of the proposal, Mr. Chair. Mr. Schuler: And have they decided, and I know this is starting to get very technical, but is it sort of the same turf that they have at the indoor soccer pitch at the U of M? What kind of a turf are they looking at for the stadium? Mr.

Robinson: I'll have to ask other people that are in the know about those detailed questions. I don't have the information before me, but I'll certainly make some inquiries and try and get back to the member in short order to address some of those questions that he's addressed to me. Mr. Schuler: And back to the Sp orts Secretariat, a question just popped up. Where physically is that located? What building is that located in? Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chair, they're located at 213 Notre Dame Avenue. The secretariat, and that's where Mr. Benson is the acting director for a total of three staff. Mr.

Schuler: I'd like to thank all of those who are involved in sports, from the minister through to the department and Sport Manitoba, and all the 60 organizations plus, plus, plus that makes sport the great experience it is for children. Would love to spend more time, and perhaps another time the minister and I could sit down and share with him some more ideas. We've got to double and triple, quadruple the amount of children involved in sports.

But to all of you that make it happen, that when I sit and watch children playing or young people playing, and even senior men playing, and women, I mean it's not just about children, but everybody enjoying the kinds of stuff that we have right now. A thank you to all of you who make that happen and all of those in the departments and all of those volunteers. Anyway, thank you, Minister. Mr. Chairperson: Resolution 28.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $11,919,000 for Spor t, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2011. Resolution agreed to.

This completes the Estimates of the Department of Sport. The hour being 12:27, what is the will of the committee? Some Honourable Members: Rise. Mr. Chairperson: Committee rise. HEALTH * (10:00) Mr. Chairperson (Rob Altemeyer): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As has been previous agreed, questions for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions.

916 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Yesterday, we were discussi ng the number of ADMs within the Department of Health and just before getting back to that, there is a comment I would like to make going back to cardiac surgery because we did spend a lot of time yesterday on cardiac surgery and I was thinking about it a lot last evening and I got the feeling from the minister's answers about bumping of surgeries that perhaps she didn't understand the significance of the point that I was trying to make because my point in bringing forward the number of surgeries that have been bumped or cancelled was that, year over year, they were increasing and, from 2006 to 2009, they more than doubled.

The minister kept talking about, yeah, but we're only, you know, patients are only getting bumped once, but I think she was missing the point that, in total, whether you're bumped once or twice or five times, you're still being bumped, and when you're bumped, it's an issue, whether it's even a bumping of one time. So with the minister's answers, I think she was missing the point yesterday in what I was trying to make in that bumping, period, was something that Dr. Koshal had indicated should decrease dramatically once the program was amalgamated at St. Boniface Hospital.

So I don't know if the minister was just, you know, trying to defend that the thing wasn't as bad as what I was trying to portray, but I think she was missing the point, that bumping has more than doubled over that period of time, and I think it's serious even if a patient is only bumped once. Knowing that she has to go forward and look at this, I hope she's looking at it in that broader perspective because I think that those are the questions that need to be looked at and asked of the surgery program, is to find out why this inordinate amount of bumping is occurring in the first place.

So I just wanted to make sure that the minister clearly understood the point that I was trying to make yesterday. And we ended up, then, talking about the number of ADMs, and in 1999, there were three ADMs and in 2010, there were six ADMs in the Department of Health. In 1999, the government of the day, under Gary Doer, adamantly campaigned against increasing these types of positions, and, yet, within a short time of forming government, those numbers started to creep up, and now they've doubled.

So I would like to ask the minister: Why has– why have she and her counterparts doubled the number of ADMs in Manitoba Health? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): We've had quite a discussion over the latter part of yesterday's session and the beginning of today, and I would like to take an opportunity to go back and speak to a few of the points that the member raised at day's end yesterday and the issue that she's raised today. I'm going to start with that one actually. And I do thank the member.

I appr eciate the opportunity to clarify if there was any misunderstanding that, you know, on her part or on the part of anybody listening or reading the Hansard, that I would view the bumping of patients, even a single time, on the cardiac wait list as something that, you know, it is perfectly fine.

It isn't perfectly fine, and we know that any family that has a loved one that's awaiting cardiac surgery is certainly wanting that surgery to take place as quickly as possible, and patients, themselves, who are already in a situation where surgery is required, so co mpromised, we could say– I'm no doctor but I think that's a fair word–that any additional stress that they have as they await their surgery and then to learn that their surgery would, indeed, be postponed even to the next day, which is what the strategy to avoid multiple bumping has been all about, that indeed it's adding stress in somebody's life and that–that's not a positive thing.

So I don't want the member to think or anyone else to think that I view that bumping of any kind is without consequences. I would reiterate, though, that Dr. Koshal, you know, really was focussing on the fact that the issue of bumping and indeed multiple bumping became an issue of wait time.

And that's why the focus has been so clearly on monitoring medically recommended benchmarks and times that people have to wait, and the efforts that in the case when people do get bumped oftentimes because an emergency has arrived at the door, which I don't think anybody would disagree needs to take priority, efforts that have been made to virtually eliminate the multiple bumping and, therefore, the amount of time that somebody would have to wait from their scheduled time to getting their actual surgery, in many respects in under 24 hours we think is a very positive stride in the right direction.

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 917 * (10:10) We also know that the region continues to work with Dr. Menkis and people in the Cardiac Sciences Program to innovate in other ways to try to eliminate any kind of bumping. I, you know, would not be so foolhardy as to suggest that it's something that could be eliminated down to zero on a routine basis, because of the issue that I've raised about emergencies–unpredictable events–presenting them- selves.

But there is work–I want to assure the member–going on in the building of capacity in the program to try to, even in the case of emergencies presenting, avoid elective cases from being bumped. So that work is ongoing, I want to assure the member, and we look forward to continuing our relationship with the cardiac program in providing resources and expertise in enabling this to happen. So I thank the member for the opportunity to clarify any misunderstanding that may have occurred in our discussion yesterday.

I wanted to speak just for a couple of minutes on some of the issues that–that the issue raise–or that the member raised yesterday, concerning reporting of administrative spending and trying to tease out corporate and executive sp ending from, you know, the sweeping generalizations that tend to occur under that word–administrative spending–when, in fact, some of that administrative spending, indeed, concerns front-line care, th ings like patient safety, infection control, doctor recruitment, that sort of thing.

And the member made mention of a recommendation from the external review that we write to CIHI and speak to them about clarifying

definitions and so forth, and I wanted to assure the member that that correspondence did take place. We did take that recommendation seriously and did send our observations about how administrative data was being captured and some recommendations about how we think that that could be improved. So that is completed, I can let the member know.

And I would let the member know, also, that yes, as a result of the administrative review–or, pardon me, the external review for RHAs and ongoing work to improve transparency, that we are asking the WRHA and other regions, of course, to work towards presenting their data in a way that more clearly peels out corporate costs. So we're looking forward to having that evolve. It was interesting to note, I think, that once we peeled out corporate spending–you know, took patient care-related functions out of the equation of administrative spending–the WRHA corporate spending is at about 3.1 percent.

And I think that there was a recommendation by the Tories in '07, around the election time, that that spending be held to 3 percent. So we're darn close to the bull's eye, I'd say, and we're going to continue to work on that. The WRHA continues to work on that. I was interested in some of the comments the member was making about the Edmonton regional health authority and, I mean, we read the same documents so we know about their reputation in the past of being a very strong regional health authority. You know, ironically, they got blown up. They were so good they were obliterated.

I think it's also fair to note that the CEO for that regional health authority, I'm informed, made somewhere between 800 and 900 thousand dollars. And I know that it's not necessarily this member–other members tend to perseverate on CEO salaries–but it's interesting to note that that is the range for what that CEO was being paid, which is an astronomical leap from what's happening here in Manitoba. So I know that the member likes these newsy little tidbits as much as I do. So I thought I would put them on the record.

Moving on to the issue that she raised this morning, concerning the organization of Manitoba Health, I just wanted to let the member know we had a brief discussion about this last year. We know that there have been a number of programs that have been added under the umbrella of Manitoba Health. We know that it certainly does take people in positions of leadership to drive important things like primary care renewal, to oversee massive and important programs in regional health authorities.

And in scanning, you know, where ADMs across the nation sit, you know, Manitoba is quite squarely placed about the middle of the pack. British Columbia comes in at nine, Ontario at 10, New Brunswick, I think, smaller than us, at five, Alberta at six. So, you know, we–I don't think we're out of line in terms of the size of our department with what's going on across the country.

And I, you know, really want to say, in the few seconds that I have left in this answer, that the people that we have working in these roles right now work harder than most people that I know, and I really, really want to commend them for their commitment to Manitobans, their commitment to improving the system, and I feel very lucky to have them to advise me, to work every day to improve the system. Mrs. Driedger: I just want to indicate to the minister that in my asking the questions about the NDP

918 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 16, 2010 doubling the size of the number of ADMs has nothing to do with the capabilities of the staff within those positions. I respect very much the role that they do. I worked closely with, you know, a number of ADMs when we were in government, and I saw the work effort that they put in to it. So I just want to acknowledge right now that I greatly respect that. So my questions have absolutely nothing to do with the capabilities of any of the people in those positions. And I neglected yesterday to welcome Ms. Herd to the table. I had acknowledged Mr.

Sussman earlier in welcoming him to his new job, and I just want to acknowledge Ms. Herd today. I know she's probably got a very, very tough position within Health, with all the dollars that flow, and just want to welcome her here and thank her for her good work. My question really, though, goes right back to the promise that Gary Doer made in 1999. And he made a lot of hay out of the fact that executive support for the, you know, minister of Health at the time was something that he was absolutely, totally against.

And he had a field day with this in the 1999 election, that absolutely there was going to be no increase to, you know, to spending in that area, that he was totally against increasing health bureaucracy. And yet–and we managed through some tough times. The minister was talking about, well, there were new programs added. Well, I don't see that there are new programs added. I mean, we were working really hard in the '90s, probably just as hard as anybody now, to bring forward primary health-care reform. And there were a lot of initiatives going on.

And the fact of it was, when regionalization was set up, the intent was that Manitoba Health should be able to be downsized, that instead of having two big bureaucracies, one with RHAs and one with Manitoba Health, the original intent of regionalization was to decrease Manitoba's health bureaucracy. And in fact it's grown, you know, quite significantly under the NDP, with a doubling of ADMs. And, you know, there's one deputy minister, six ADMs, and that was something that the NDP were absolutely opposed to.

So I need to ask the Minister of Health: What did that promise mean in 1999 when it was made– like, did it mean anything? Was it just rhetoric of the day to try to win an election? Was it–you know, did it have any meaning? It just–it's such a hypocritical position that they took then, when you look at where the numbers have ended up right now. So I'd like to ask the minister, you know: What did that mean when they basically doubled the number of ADMs? * (10:20) Ms.

Oswald: Again, you know, we are working very hard on initiatives to improve the health-care system, but the commitment to transferring investment to the front line is very real. You know, the member is focussing on assistant de puty ministers, and, certainly, that is her purview. In the organizational chart we see ADM and Chief Financial Officer, Ka ren Herd, Health Work Force Assistant Deputy Minister, Terry Goertzen, who, of course, has been leading the charge in massive hiring of front-line workers. You know, we know we have 2,500 more nurses today.

We've got a net increase of 345 more doctors, and numerous other increases across the–so this is a significant leadership role that this position places. We know we have an ADM in charge of regional programs and services, chiefly in charge of overseeing what's happening in our regional health authorities. Associate Deputy Minister Marie O'Neill, Public Health and Primary Care. You know, we certainly wouldn't have any difficulty discussing the fact that there was no more important role going on than considering public health with pandemic H1N1 last year.

We have ADM Kim Sharman, in charge of Provincial Programs and Services–very heavily involved in capital planning which, again, has been a very significant area of responsibility as we've seen renovations or rebuilds or new builds of over 100 facilities over the time that we've been in office. So very, you know, huge roles of responsibility at that level, but I think it's worthwhile to note, in– overall, looking at FTEs spanning the decade, we've actually seen a net decrease.

In '99, full-time equivalence in, you know, what would be considered a bureaucracy, I suppose–but, again, we had a pretty healthy debate about that yesterday, about the important role that people can play in patient safety and infection control. In '98-99, full-time equivalence, 1,787; and today, 1,192. So, indeed, we have seen a pretty substantial decrease in full-time equivalence in the department in what may or may not be fairly painted as administrative roles. So there has been pretty aggressive action taken in decreasing the bureaucracy.

April 16, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 919 If we focus on ADMs, we see one, two, three, four, five. Note that the office of the Chief Provincial Public Health Officer has been restructured. He doesn't hold an ADM role now. We learned, I think, some important lessons during pandemic H1N1 and, in fact, his responsibilities have been assumed, you know, in terms of administrative role, under other areas. And he is holding the role of Chief Provincial Public Health Officer, but not specifically an ADM role. So, again, you know, we have seen a decrease in FTEs.

We've seen an increase in number of ADMs and, as I've stated earl ier, when you do cross- jurisdictional analysis, we're pretty middle of the pack, once again. Mrs. Driedger: The programs that the minister referred to, the, you know, various responsibilities of Manitoba Health, were also there in the 1990s and, in fact, were incredibly challenging because of the decrease of federal dollars that were

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-4-29c
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 4th hansardpdf 29c.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6242d3899ca1ab21bd9f0a225c156b9eaa8f760c

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