Manitoba Hansard — 9 March 1992 (Sitting 25A, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-25a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Speaker VOL. XLI No. 25A -1:30 p.m., MONDAY, MARCH 9, 1992 Printed by the Office of the Q.-,s Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thlrty·Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Af filiation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARREn, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste .

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virde n Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Aon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

1041 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, March 9, 19 92 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS Commonwealth Day Message Mr. Speaker: Prior to going into Orders of the Day, I have a message from Her Majesty the Queen, the Head of the Commonwealth. On this Com monwealth Day, I ask you to remember that we share this world with many other living things. The Earth is a gift to all of us, whoever we are, wherever we live. We have but one planet and all life on it is interdependent. Our Comm onwealth is a partnership of 50 nations, and we are responsible for one-third of this planet.

We all share the task of ensuring that our world will remain fit for life and capable of sustaining us and those who will come after us. For too long, our natural environment has been taken for granted. It is now only too evident that we have to take serious steps to make certain that we cause no further destruction nor permanently degrade the very natural resources on which we depend. For example, unless we take action now to halt the rise in global temperatures, rising sea levels will threaten the very existe nce of seve ral islands and low-lying Commonwealth countries.

The United Nations Conference on Environment and Deve lopment will be held later this year to draw attention to the many environmental problems that we have either inherited or created for ourselves. At this conferenc e, and in many other ways, Commonwealth countries can make significant contributions. Together we represent a wide variety of climatic landscape and ecological conditions, and we are at all levels of economic and social development. The Commonwealth can truly be described as a cross

section of the contemporary world. Dem ocratic gove rnments reflect the will of their peo ple. In our system, the views of the individual can be translated into government action, so it is possible for everyone to make a contribution, however large or small, to ensure the future health and vitality of the natural world around us. Bringing about the necessary changes will not be easy, particularly if it involves restraints and sacrifice s, but it must be done, and we can all help in one way or another, individually or collectiv ely.

The living world is a God-given heritage , and we have to be more responsible in our stewardsh ip of it. We all need air to breath e, water to drink and food to eat, but we must be caref ul, not selfish or greedy, about the way we exploit scarce natural resources and about the demands we make on the natural environment. Gradually we are waking up to the challenges, but we especially need the rising generations to help us take the right decisions and actions now. I ask the young people of the Commonwealth to make themselves aware of the critical problems and issues. There is no time to spare .

It is our future that is at stake . Signed, this 9th day of March, 19 92, Her Majesty, the Queen. * (1 335) ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ?

The peti tion of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth : THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and It is the responsibility of the gove rnment to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the crime; and The decision to te rminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHE REFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be

1042 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering resto ring the Rght Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Ms. Barrett) I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly shewe th: THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and It is the responsibility of the gove rnment to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and Programs like the Rght Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessa ry funds to deal with the crime; and The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the gove rnment of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Rght Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Mr. Chomiak) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Law Amendments. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as its First Report.

Your committee met on Thursday, March 5, 19 92, at 7 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. At that meeti ng, your comm ittee elec ted Mr s. Dacquay as its Chairperson. Your comm ittee heard representation on Bill 5, The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le Conseil consultatif manitobain de Ia situation de Ia femme, as follows: Jean Altemeyer - Choices Jenny Robinson -Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women Kathlene Beatson- The Federal P.C.

Women's Caucus of Winnipeg and Districts Margaret Murray - Private Citizen Brenda Leipsic - Private Citizen Marilyn Gault - Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Roz Krahn - Private Citizen Grace lvey - Private Citizen Barbara Thompson - Private Citizen Cathy Doyle - Private Citizen Monika Feist - The Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba Hilde Schu rhoff - Immi grant Wom en's Association Written Submissions: Hazel M. Blennerhasset - Executive Director, Women's Post Treat ment Centre Inc.

Gwen Parker - Executive Secre tary, Manitoba Women's Institute Sharon Spinks- Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre Members of Original Women's Network Inc. Members of lkwewak Justice Society Memb ers of Aborigi nal Wom en's Unity Coalition Loma Nash - Private Citizen Darlene Holl - Private Citizen Shirley Stoodley - Private Citizen Bernice Friesen - Private Citizen Yvonne Moar - Private Citizen Tina Cameron - Private Citizen Lorraine Taylor- Private Citizen Donna Marion - Private Citizen Dr.

Jacqueline Stalker - Director, Canadian Congress for Learning Opportunities for Women Issues Com mittee - Board of North End Women's Centre Francine Lee-Matthys - Private Citizen

March 9, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1043 Staff of Women's Employment Counselling Services & Immigrant Women's Employment Counselling Service s Gloria Mathes - Pri vate Citizen J.A.M. MacKenzie - Private Citizen Patti Sullivan - Executive Director, Klinic Community Health Centre Laurie Allen - Private Citizen Renate Bublick - Private Citizen Murielle Gagne-Ouellette - Directrice generale Pluri-elles (Manitoba) Inc.

Tracy Fontaine - Private Citizen Mary Ann Jesmer - Private Citizen Nellie Kiristias - Private Citizen Susan LeClaire - Private Citizen linda Bruyere - Private Citizen Valerie Ginter - Private Citizen Beverly Cameron - Private Citizen Dina Auriti - Private Citizen Korstin Ojah - Private Citizen Pat Ojah - Private Citizen lnranny Ojah - Private Citizen I.

Seunarine - Private Citizen Sharii Riffely - Private Citizen Arlene Edwards - Private Citizen Val Noseworthy - Private Citizen Betty Curnew - Private Citizen Jackie Suaha - Private Citizen Eileen Ricketts - Private Citizen Sharena Betts - Private Citizen Dianne Hodgson - Private Citizen Beryle MacJones - Private Citizen Marilyn Kenny - Private Citizen Fay Campbell - Private Citizen Lisa Challinor -Private Citizen Sue Barnsley - Private Citizen Elsa Paragas - Private Citizen E.M.

Brazzell - Private Citizen Liz Archambault - Private Citizen Jean T erendale - Private Citizen Shelley Mitchell - Private Citizen Laura Kilborn - Private Citizen M.F. Jones- Private Citizen Leo Sawicki - Private Citizen Maggie Nishimura - Private Citizen Cindy Rhodenyir - Private Citizen Cheryl Albuquerque - Private Citizen Maria Gallant - Private Citizen Marion Zubren - Private Citizen Jacky Cremers - Private Citizen Shirley Thomasson - Private Citizen Diana Fawcett - Private Citizen Rita Cremers - Private Citizen Donna C.

Cuming - Private Citizen Susan Matsukubo - Private Citizen Lesia Brooks - Private Citizen Valerie Friesen- Private Citizen Geri Taylor - Private Citizen Jan Gibson - Private Citizen Gail Hunt - Private Citizen Betty Jackson - Private Citizen Suzanne legault- Desm ier - Private Citizen Susan Fraser - Private Citizen Patricia Raws - Private Citizen Lorraine Turner -Private Citizen Laurie Marchuk - Private Citizen Gisela Meilleur - Private Citizen Louise Reilly - Private Citizen Violet M.

Motheral - Private Citizen Jan Clayton - Private Citizen Laurette L'Heureux - Private Citizen Jean Gray - Private Citizen Roland Lavallee - Private Citizen Wendy Bloomfield - Private Citizen Cecilia Chik - Private Citizen Kai Tao - Private Citizen A.M. Landa- Private Citizen Marianne Buza - Private Citizen Rosemary Shanks - Private Citizen JoAnne Findlay - Private Citizen Jean Anderson - Private Citizen M.A. Bender - Private Citizen Carmel Vivier - Private Citizen

1044 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 Rachael Holder - Private Citizen Cecille Paterson - Private Citizen Gloria Johns - Private Citizen Beth Shore - Private Citizen Carolyn Zimmerman - Private Citizen Heather Clarke - Private Citizen Kathleen Wood - Executive Director, W.I.S.H. Inc. (Women-in-Second-Stage-Housing) Glenda Hatton - Private Citizen Shannon Hatton - Private Citizen Paulette Moser - Private Citizen Linda Langevin - Private Citizen Laura Steiman - The Elizabeth Fry Society of Manitoba Your committee has consider ed: Bill 5- The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le Conseil consultatif manitobain de Ia situation de Ia femme Bill 7-lhe Real Property Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les biens reels Bill 8-lhe Garnishment Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia saisie-arret Bill 46-lhe Jury Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les jures and has agreed to report the sam e without amendment. Mrs. Dacquay: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the com mittee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Mr. Speaker, I have indeed the great pleasure and honour of tabling Speaking to the Future, A Statement of Government Policy on the Status of Aboriginal Women in Manitoba, March 9, 1992. I also have a statementfor the House, with copies. Mr.

Speaker, on Sunday, March 8, 1992, the world cele brated the 81 st Annual International Women's Day. Around the globe, men and women gathered in celebration of the achievements of women. Just an hour ago, in this Legislative Building, we celebr ated International Women's Day on behalf of Manitoba women. This province has a rich history filled with success, countless contributions by women of our political, social , economic and cultural life. Over the past decade or so, more women have moved into the work force. They have entered a wide variety of nontraditional occ upations and have excelled.

Canadians recently celeb rated with astronaut Roberta Bondar and with Olympic gold medalist, skier Kerrin Lee-Gartner. These women achieved their goals and ambitions through hard work and dedication, just as other Canadian women do every day. Again, it is the individual and personal victories that have measured women's progress over the years.

Improvements to social and family services, child daycare, employee benefits, maternity and paternity packages, as well as more flexible working arrangements, Affirmative Action initiatives and educational opportunities have enabled women to enter, compete and succeed in the workplace. Yes, Mr. Speaker, women have made great progress and will continue to ded icate themselves to promoting equality in the legal, political , cultural and economic realms. Despite our gains, however, we have much to do.

One of the areas of greatest concern to me and to our government is the issue of domestic violence and violence against women. Our government has taken a strong stand on this issue. We will not tolerate violence against women. We initiated the Domestic Violence Review, which involved a consu ltative process and resulted in a report which detailed recommendations to our government. *

(1340) We look forward later today to unanimous support for our government's resolution to make Manitoba a domestic violence-free zone, a province where partner abuse is viewed as a criminal offence. We established a comm unity advisory committee and an interdepartmental implementation comm ittee to assi st our gove rnment in add res sing the recomm endations made in the report. As the memb ers may be aw are , man y of these recommendations have been or currently are being acted upon. The Manitoba Women's Directorate has compiled and rele ased a nati onal listi ng of viol ence prevention materials that will prove to be a very

March 9, 1992 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1045 effective educational support tool in schools across the country. The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women has also undertaken a number of initiatives in keeping with its mandate to represent Manitoba's women and promote equality. The council has concentra ted its efforts on issues related to su bstance abuse, gun control, the economy, single-parent families and the current constitutional debate. Unfortu nat ely, our gov ernmen t and its departments and commu nity agencies cannot alone change harmful and destructive attitudes and values.

Manitobans must work together to foster healthy and positive attitudes and values that will ensure all women live lives free of fear, anger and violence. Violence against women is a serious societal problem that must be addressed by educators, employers, groups and organizations, the media, professional associ ations, women and men, by all segments of our society. Working together we can make a difference. We must make a difference, and we must bring about change. Mr.

Speaker, I want to underscore the fact that issues related to educat ion, child care, health and welfare and violence against women are not solely women's issues, nor are issues related to finance, business, the economy and political process solely me n's issues. We mu st ea ch take equal responsibility for issues and concerns that affect us. Our government cannot sit in isolation and single-handedly bring about economic prosperity, change social values and attitudes, establish equality, eradicate violence and end poverty. As citizens of Manitoba, Canada and the world, we are major stakeholders in the futu re .

We mus t recognize and accept the be nefits and responsibilities of world membership. In celebrating International Women's Day, we are recog nizing women's achiev ements and progress, and have underscored the necessity of vigilance and determination in meeting the challenges that the future surely holds. Mr.

Speaker, in recognition of International Women's Day and to underscore our government's commitment to the women of Manitoba, today at 11 a.m., the Honourable Jim Downey, the Minister of Native Affairs, and I had the pleasure of introducing Speaking to the Future, A Statement of Government Policy on the Status of Aboriginal Women in Manitoba. The establishment of this policy is an achievement in itseH, and aboriginal women are to be commended for thei r participation in the policy-making process. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to acknowl edge the important role aboriginal women played during the policy exploration phase and in its development. Over 200 aboriginal women participa ted in the provincial foru m, five regional meetings and numerous local and individual meetings which were held throughout Manitoba. Elders, political leaders, educators, social service workers, tradeswomen, home mak ers, students, artists, health care professionals, businesswomen, rural, northern and urban aboriginal women all participated in this process.

As I have already noted, the establishment of our government's policy on aboriginal women was not accomplished in isolation. I twas done, in large part, with the help and input from groups and individuals from across the province. Through this policy, our government acknowledges the aspirations of aboriginal women in Manitoba. It recognizes the potential of aboriginal women and supports the special measures that are necessary to ensure that their contributions and abilities are recognized and affirmed.

The government of Manitoba, its departments and agencies, in all their future acti ons and programs, shall be guided by eight fundamental principles with respect to government activity and Manitoba's aboriginal women. I would like to review those principles. Manitoba recognizes that the federal government has a special trust or fiduciary relationship with Status Indian peoples, and nothing in this policy is intended to reduce, interfere with or in any way abr ogate that special trust relatio nship. The go ve rn ment of Mani toba is com mi tted to establishing a partnership with aboriginal women. •

(1345) The go vernmen t fur ther recog nizes this partnership is the cornerstone in successfully developing provincial policies, programs and services. This policy shall encompass those provincial programs, services and activi ties within provincial authority and jurisdictio n. Recog nizing that econom ic independence remains an important goal for aboriginal women, the government of Manit oba will continue to work with aboriginal women to enhance their opportunities.

1046 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 Aboriginal women, including those who live in remote and isolated areas, have the right to access and benefit fully from provincial programs, services and activities along with all Manitoba citiz ens. The government acknowledges that aboriginal women face special challenges. Accor dingly, government programs and services, in their design and imp lem en tati on, will cont inue to en hance opportunities for aboriginal women to develop to their fullest potential.

To increase the participation of aboriginal women in provincial decision-making processes, they will be actively recruited as members of provinc ial boards and commis sions. They will participate In the development of provincial policies and strategies for aboriginal women. Government will focus its own resources in two main areas: those that have shown positive results for aboriginal women; and those that demonstrate un tapped pote ntial for aborigi nal women's presence, benefit and contributions. As we cele brate past ac hievements, we mus t also consider the future of all women in Manitoba.

Our government also recognizes challenges presented to aboriginal women, and we are com mitted to responding to those challenges. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I also rise to acknowledge International Women's Day, which we cele brated yesterday, and to share some of the same ideas that the Minis ter responsi ble for the Status of Women (Mrs. Mitchelson) has listed in her ministerial statement.

I would like to add another cong ratulatory message to the astronaut Roberta Bondar and Olympic gold medalist Kerrin Lee-Gartner, and that is Connie Laliberte, from Manitoba, who just became the Canadian women's curling champion. Mr. Speaker, I will be brief in my comments. There is a gre at deal of content and thought-provoking c omments made by the minister, and I will very briefly speak to just a couple of them. We talked about the domestic violence review and the resolution to make Manitoba a domestic violence-free zone.

I would like to speak to that in the context that last year in Manitoba 1 0 women were murdered; a hundred women are murdered in Canada. The issues of domestic violence cannot be separated from the issues of social, economic and political violenc e as well. Two-thirds of the women over the age of 65 are poor. Over half of the people living in poverty, who are Increasing dally, are women with children. Women still make up less than half of the major jobs in many of the major job ca tegories In this province. Women are still paid less than 70 cents for every dollar that men earn, on average.

We have come a long way, but we have an enormously long way to go. We on this side of the House look forward, with a great deal of interest and not a little skepticism, to the actual implementation of some of the concepts that this government has shared with us over the last several International Women's Days and in other ministerial statements and discussions in this House. We will be looking forward to the actual implementation of the recom mendations in the Aboriginal Justice Inquir y. We will be looking forward to the actu al programs and policies that will be resulting from the Pedlar commission.

We look forward, as women who work in government, to the actual imp lemen ta tion of the Hay repor t recommendations. We look forward to the actu al implementation of the policies as first brought forward today on the status of aboriginal women in Manitoba. We have shared our c oncerns many times with the government over their lack of follow-through, their lack of programs that actually respond to the needs that they address.

We will be looking forward to discussing those concerns and those issues in great detail, and I am confident that we will have a much better idea of the governmen t's actual commi tment to women and children and violence and equality when we see the budget. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. • (1 350) Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I rise on the comm ents the minister has put on the record on the celebration of International Women's Day, the day of bread and roses. Mr. Speak er, the go vernment ma de an announcement today with regard to a policy.

I have no difficul ty with the policy as such, but I have a great deal of difficulty with a policy which is announced with great fanfare and which has no performance guarantee attached to it-none. They said they wanted to develop a partnership to develop provincial policies, programs and services. This is the same government that has turned down an independent aboriginal justice system. That is the most fundamental policy need

March 9, 1992 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1047 of aboriginal women as well as aboriginal men. They said they wanted to help aboriginal women achieve economic independence by creating equality of opportunity. The way to ensure equality of opportunity is through educational programming, and yet this is the government that has cut ACCESS programs.

This is the government who has sat by and watc hed while the University of Manitoba has increased its tuition fees by 54.8 percent with no additional funding for student bursaries so that those aboriginal women who need it the most are not denied the equality of opportunity in getting into an educational program. They said they want to ensure that aboriginal women have access to provincial services and programs. Well, I was hoping today that maybe we would see an announcement about some money for some safe houses and some shelters in remote aboriginal commun ities, but that tragically was not announced today. Mr.

Speaker, words are cheap. They cost nothing except the paper they are printed on. The com mu nity re quir ement is for program mi ng initiative, and program mi ng initia tive was not annou nced today, sadly. I see nothing in this wonderful announcement, with all of its fanfare, that is going to ensure that one aboriginal woman would be better off tomorrow than she is today. While I would have liked to have joined in this annou nc emen t today cong ratu lating the government, I cannot congra tulate a government that has only rhetoric and not action to offer. Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement as well. Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise before the members today, on this day, as we are honouring International Women's Day, and on behalf of the province and citizens of Manitoba, extend congratu lations to five Manitoban women: Connie Laliberte and her Fort Rouge rink of Laurie Allen, Cathy Gauthier, Janet Arnott and Arlene Macleod, on winning the Scott Tournament of Hearts Canadian women's curling championship in Halifax this past weekend. I am cert ain, Mr.

Speaker, those who followed the rink's progress throughout the week, and all who watched Saturday afternoon's nationally televised final, will agree that Manitoba's representatives were most deserving of the vic tory and the championship over the defending champions from British Columbia. Man itoba pl ayed an excepti onally strong game, highlighted by a number of key precision-made shots. This is indeed a credit to the skill and abilities of our Manitoba champions who have once again brought pride and distinction to themselves, their families, Fort Rouge Curling Club and our province.

It was in 19 84 that another Fort Rouge rink, skipped by Connie Laliberte and with Janet Arnott, gr aced Manit ob a with a world wome n's championship. Now, as Canadian champions once again, Connie and Janet have an opportunity to do it again. The added significance of their victory means Manitoba will have two rinks in the Canadian championship next year when the 19 93 Scott Tournament of Hearts takes place in Brandon, because the defending champion returns as Team Canada.

I want to ask all members to join me in extending congratulations to the Laliberte rink and in extending best wishes to Connie, Laurie, Cathy, Janet and Arlene as they represent Manitoba and Canada at the world cham pionships at Garmisch-P artenkirchen, Germany, March 28 to AprilS. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (1 355) Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): It gives me great pleasure, on behalf of the official opposition, to join with the minister in congratulating this great team that has just won the Scott Tournament of He ar ts , the Cana dian women's curling championship in Halifax this past weekend.

The team played extremely well, Mr. Speaker, and virtually walked away with the championship in the final game. We do wish the team the very best in the future, the world curling championship which is coming up in Germany, I believe, from March 28 to April 5. We will all look forward with great anticipation to the performance of Connie and her team. Regardless, as the minister indicated , Connie and her team will be in Brandon next year. I want to assure all members of the House that the city of Brandon, as usual, will roll out the red carpet for Connie and her team.

Brandon has excellent faci lities, the Keystone Centre and many, many su pport facilities in the co mmu nity, and the communi ty at large is known for its hospitality and for many people who will pitch in to make sure that

1048 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 the game goes well and that the gener al championships are well performed in that city. Again, Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the team, and we certainly wish them the very best in the upcoming world event in Germany. Thank you. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with the members from the other two parties in congratulating the rink. It seems that Fort Rouge has a history of producing champions. We had quite a celebration yesterday after noon that I think is still going on in some parts of the area.

I would also like to join with the House in ext ending our congratulations to Connie and Laurie, Cathy, Janet and Arlene. I would also point out that two other champion teams came home yesterday, and that was the men's and women's rinks from the deaf curling championships that won both the men's and the women's. I would like to add their names to the list of people who we are congratulating today. Thank you very much. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 36- The Health Care Records Act Ms. Judy Wasyl ycla-Lels (St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen), that Bill 36, The Health Care Records Act;

Loi sur les dossiers medicaux, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, this bill reflects our changing health care system. Nowhere is such change more apparent or more necessary than when it comes to pa tient rig hts and self-dete rmination among health care consumers. Bill 36 is in the spirit of that consumer movement and consistent with health care ref orm.

It provides for a legis lative mechanism to enable health care consumers to have access to their own medical records and it proposes to enshrine the principle of confidentiality in law. The bill can only mean, in our view, bette r informed health care consumers, more openness and trust between patients and health care providers and a higher quality and more effective health care system. Motion agreed to. • (1 400) Bill 56- The Public Health Amendment Act

(2) Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that Bill 56, The Public Health Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia sante publique, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr . Speaker , Bill 56 recognizes ma ndatory reporting of adverse reactions to vaccinations and calls for information on both the benefits and the risks of vaccinations to be provided. This bill �ocepts that immunization has been a factor leading to reduction of many diseases but recognizes the evidence linking vaccinations with disability and death in some healthy infants.

Like Bill 36, Bill 56 proposes to ensure that active involvement by consumers in our health care system leads to more informed consent, decision making and enhanced quality of health care services. For both Bills 36 and 56, I acknowledge the hard work of the health care consumer's rights committee of MARL, Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties, and other organizations, as well as the efforts of a fo rmer colleague Jay Cowan, who was our health care critic and who did most of the work involving the drafting and consulting around these bills.

I hope these bills form the basis for all-party collaboration and co-operation in this important policy area. Thank you. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all memb ers to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon 47 visitors from Minnesota. They are from the Richfield High School Choir, and they are under the direction of Mr. Kevin Erickson. On behalf of all the mem bers, I welcome you here this afte rnoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Cross-Border Shopping Government Actions Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): On February 21 in this Chamber, the Premier said to

March 9, 1992 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1049 qu estions that were asked on the issue of cross-border shopping that thousands of jobs have been removed from Manitoba's retail operations and put into operations on the other side of the border where they do not pay taxes, where they do not support our medicare or anything else. You cannot have it both ways, Mr. Speaker. Yet, on Friday, it appears that his own ministers in government want to have it both ways. They are calling work going out of the country, south of the border a, quote: win-win situation.

I ask the Premier, what action is he going to take to ensure that his leadership and his words in this Chamb er will be followed through by his own ministers so that taxes will remain in Manitoba, so that medicare will be supported in Canada and that we will not try to have it both ways, as the Premier indicated we could not? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition brings forward an interesting point of view.

When between eight and 1 0 jobs are created by a new company in competition with Canada Post, offe ring services out of Winnipeg- eight to 1 0 additional jobs in Winnipeg-he takes the position that this is not good, that these are not jobs that should be supporting our economy. He is out there only because they are unionized jobs at Canada Post, taking his typical position that only union jobs are valid jobs in this economy.

Here you have a new company with eight to 10 new jobs in Winnipeg, saving the taxpayers of Manitoba, I might say, $20,000 in a fiscal year and crea ting eight to 1 0 additional jobs, he says those are not valid jobs and that there is a problem with them. I say, shame on the Lead er of the Opposition for taking sides as to whether or not unionized jobs are better than other jobs in the economy. We will support having jobs in the economy in Winnipeg and saving money for the taxpayer at the same time. Manitoba-u.s. Trade Deficit Government Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, in 19 88, prior to free trade, a position supported by the Premier, the deficit of trade in Manitoba with the United States was $537 million. The recent statistics produced by his own Bureau of Statistics indicate the deficit of trade right now with the United States is $1 .024 billion. Will the Premier tell the people of Manitoba, in light of his conflicting rhetoric every day, what he is going to do about the $500-miliion increase in deficit of trade with this province and the United States so that we can get Manitobans working again?

What is he going to do about the $500-miliion change since he has been in government? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition, like Rip Van Winkle, has obviously been sleeping for a long, long time. He does not recognize that there is a recession out there and that 80 percent of the exports from Canada go to the United State s.

Our biggest trading partner has been in a serious re cession and has not been consuming the goods and services from any of its trading partners, but particularly since Canada is so dependent on trade with the United State s, Canada has suffered substantially as a result of the recession that has affected the United State s. It has backed up into the sales from Manitoba and Canadian producers. He does not want to recognize that. He is not aware of these patte rns throughout the world.

Hope fully, somebody will inform him about the things that are happening out there so that he will not ask questions of this nature that ignore the reality of what is happening throughout the world. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I am surprised the First Minister of this province would trivial ize a $500-million increase in deficit of trade, not with Canada and the United State s, with Manitoba and the United State s. Let us be very, very fac tual. The increase has gone from $537 million in 19 88, to $1 .024 billion in 19 90.

I would ask the Premier to tell Manitobans and advise Manitobans, what is his government going to do to reverse the situation with a $500-mil iion change in the balance of trade with the United States before the GST came in? What he will do in his budget to start dealing with the Manitoba economy and the Manitoba deficit of trade with the United States, a trade arrangement that he supported with the Prime Minister in terms of free trade two years ago? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, firstly, again, the Leader of the Opposition does not recognize that same pattern is reflective of the entire pattern of trade between Canada and the United States . That is because the United States, our biggest trading partner, has been in recession and has not had the

1050 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 demand for goods from Canada that it has had in the past.

The fact of the matter is that, unlike the pre vious NDP government that raised taxes and made this province uncompetitive, what we are doing is keeping taxes down and making this province more competitive so that organizations and operations such as Versatile are now able to get an entire two-wheel drive tractor operation here so that there will be more sales to the United States and to all of our trading partners, as there will be with many of our corporations who are now beco ming more competitive because we have kept taxes down for fou r straight years . Community Colleges Fun ding Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, every Manitoban knows that education is the basis for our economic recovery, yet this Minister of Education has refused to commit herseH to even restore the more than 1 0 percent cuts her government made to community colleges last year. The reason is now clear. Mr. Speaker, we have learned today that the Minister of Education is this year requesting additional cuts of $4.6 million, amounting to a further 8 percent decrease in support for community colleg es. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister what, in her mind, can possibly justify this further attack on commu nity colleges? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I will remind the member that the information regarding funding for comm unity colleges will be released when the budget is released this Wednesday in this House. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, we have seen the numbers.

Will the minister explain to the House why she proposes a 57 percent increase for departmental administrative purposes and yet believes that our commu nity colleges and their programs, with their long waiting list, must be cut even further? " (14 1 0) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, I will simply remind the memb er again that the initiatives relating to community colleges will be revealed on Wednesday of this week when the budget has been reve aled. Post-Se condary Educauon Fu nding Restoration Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, will the minister change the course of her predecessor, the privatization of post-secondary educati on? Will she go back to Treasury Board and demand that these funds for post-secondary education, for commu nity colleges, for young Manitobans who have nowhere else to go-w ill she restore those funds? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I think it is important again for me to remind my honourable friend of the commitment of this government to education for all Manitobans and education in the post-secondary level, access to training programs at our community colleges.

Our commitment to those commu nity colleges will be seen on Wednesday when our budget is tabled in this House. Child Care Centres Funding Formula Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): My que stion is to the Minister of Family Services. It is unfortunate that the minister has been neglected in the same way that our children are being neglected. Can the Minister of Family Services tell us with- Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premie r): Is that a confession? Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, the Premier of the province, in his usual north-end street-fi ghting style- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, it is clear that our child care centres are sufferi ng. They are suffering as a result of a recession which has required many parents to withdraw their children because they have no job, and therefore, they have no monies to pay for fe es. We also know that they are suffering as a direct result of actions taken by this minister. As of last July, he res tructured the way in which child care centres are funded. Can the minister stand in the House today and tell this House how many child care centres in the prov ince receive less dollars than they received prior to his restr ucturing proposals? Hon.

Harold Gllleshamrner (Minister of Family Services): I welcome the opportunity to respond to that que stion on the daycare centres. This

March 9, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1051 gove rnment has put a substantial amount of new dollars into daycare in Manitoba, some 60 percent over four budgets . The res tructuring we did last year was to put more dollars into subsidies and less into grants for those centres, but by the amount of money that we increased our funding to daycare last year, centres had the ability, if they followed the provincial standards, to increase their funding by some 2 percent. The variable that perhaps the member does not understand is that that amount of income is dependent on the fact that those spaces are full.

We do have centres at this time with spaces that are not occupied, but I would mention to the member that some of them have had to draw on their surpluses to tide them through, and some have had to make adjustments in their staffing complement. During this time, no centres have closed, and I noted a comment made today that some centres have had to tighten their belts. I say to the member, it is the same belt tightening that small businesses and individuals across this province have done.

In meeting with the exec utive of the MCCA just last week, one of the positive things that came out of it was a very good working relationship that exists between the government, the daycare directorate and the MCCA. Staff Layoffs Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): The ministe r knows full well that centres have received far less in operating grants, from a couple of hundred dollars up to $24,000 less for our children.

Can the minister tell the House today how many trained staff have been laid off in child care centres across this province because of his and his government's unwillingness to ensure that there is 10 0 percent trained staff at centres? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, I indicated in my previous answer that the grants to the centres were reduced but that the subsidies were dramatically increased and that in our view of daycare-and I thought shared by the Leader of the Liberal Party from state ments that she had made previous ly-that funding should go to individuals, to children, to fa milies. That was the direction that we took and one that she is on record of supporting. In respect to the trained staff, this province has the highest standards for daycare training and staffing throughout North America.

We have given the daycare centres and daycares the ability to achieve revenue to support those standards. H in fact daycare centres have exceeded those standards, they may have had to make some adjustments to their staffing patter ns. Mrs. Carstalrs: In other words, inferior-quality training is acceptable to this Minister of Family Services. Subsidized Space Allocation Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party is on record as saying- An Honourable Member: Anything. Mrs. Carstalrs: Well, it is better than nothing. Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, the Liberal Party in Manitoba is on record as saying that money should go to private spaces if there were no public spaces available. There are now lots of public spaces available. Will this minister now commit to ensuring no additional subsidized spaces in private child care centres until the public spaces are filled? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Well, Mr. Speaker, it is difficult to follow policy that is being created by the Liberal Party moment by moment. We ha ve cer tainly, self-a dmittedly, some vacancies in the daycare centres and daycares at this time.

We have agreed not to license any more positions in those centres until late r in this year. There are a number of reasons why we do have some vacancies. There is a recession in place . There has been a dramatic increase in the number of licensed spaces. We will be monitoring how the uptake goes and monitoring the situation, and we have agreed with the MCCA to review this some time in June of this year. Aboriginal Women Program Accessibility Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, today, with a great deal of fanfare, the Minister responsible for the Stat us of Women (Mrs.

Mitchelson) and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) unveiled Speaking to the Future, A Statement of Gove rnment Policy on the Status of Aboriginal Women in Manitoba. One of the eight platform state ments in this policy was, aboriginal women, including those who live in

1052 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 remote and isolated areas, have the right to access and benefit fully from provincial programs, services and activities along with all Manitoba citizens. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) has cast doubt on that principle by stating that it is not practical for full access to be available to all aboriginal women in remote and isolated circumstances, that the full range of service might not always be available.

How, in the light of this flip-flop, can Manitoba women, and particularly aboriginal Manitoba women, be assured that this gove rnment will actually follow up on any of these principles? * (1 420) Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for that question and their interest in the policy which has received general acceptance from the aboriginal women of this province after two years of hard work. I take this opportunity to say that I am extremely disappointed in the Leader of the Liber al Party (Mrs.

Carstairs) in the negative approach of after two years of hard work from the aboriginal commu nity and in putting this poDcy fo rward. Dealing specifica lly with it, I really am putting forward that not necessarily speaking of the aboriginal women in isolated remote communities where in fact it is not possible to deliver a provincial progr am . Whether it is the remo te North or anywhere else, one has to say it as it is, and one does not want to try to mislead.

There are other parts of the province where programs are not available as they would be in the North, so that is what I want to bring forward to the member. Ms. Barrett: Then the principle perhaps should have been- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . This is not a time for debate. ACCESS Program Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, also in this principle is given the stated commitment of the gove rnment to eco nomic independence for aboriginal women.

Will they now restore the $260,000 they cut in last year's budget for the student ACCESS programs whose students last year were 65 percent women and 70 percent aboriginal? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the provincial government maintained our funding for the ACCESS programs, that it was the reductio n from the federal government that the reductions took place.

Let me as well say, and the member should be aware of this, that the changes to the Communities Economic Development Fund clearly speaks to the support for aboriginal people , not only off of reserves but on reserves as well, in support under that prog ra m. Thr ough the exer cise of fur ther announcements today dealing with the awareness of programs like that, we e ncourage the aboriginal women to participate fu lly in those provincial programs which are available through economic dev elopm ent activities. Training Programs Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, how do the Department of Education cuts to special programs for women at Keewatin Commu nity College and em ployment orientation for women programs at Red River Community College, which have been available for aboriginal women, match the government's stated aim in its policy, Speaking to the Future, today that they will putin place training programs for aboriginal women so that they can achieve equali ty of opportunity and economic independence? Which is it? Are you going to cut, or are you going put in- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I am quite prepared to put the record of this government against the recor d of the former ministers. It was this government which gave the first support to the indigenous women of this province. The first funding ever for the indigenous women of Manitoba came from this government, so that they could organize themselves and put forward issues and work on policies which are developed like we have seen today. I will put our record next to theirs anytime. Employment Resources Regional Offices Closure Mr. Leonard Evans (B randon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (Mrs.

Voclrey). Employment Resources Regional Off ices are involved in administering the Caree rStart Program, among others, and in

March 9, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1053 assisting labour adjustment committees in dealing with plant shutdowns and major layoffs. Given that unemployment is still at unacceptably high levels in the city of Brandon, and others are pending at the Brandon General Hospital and the Brandon Mental Health Centre, why has the gove rnment of Ma nitoba clo sed down the Employment Resources Regional Off ice in the city of Brandon, which used to have a staff of seven peop le? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, we are in the process of making some budget decisions which will be announced on Wednesday when the budget is tab led. I can assur e the memb er that the CareerStart Program will be in place and that there will be jobs for youth on the same basis as the previous years. Mr. Leonard Evans: I invite the minister to go to Brandon, and the office is empty. There is nobody in it. Is this jobs for Brandon? I have a supplemen tary question.

Can the minister tell the House whether this gove rnment plans to close the Employment Resources Regional Offices in Dauphi n, Steinbach, Winkler, Te ulon and Killarney, as well as the city of Brandon? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) indicated how many sleeps there were last week before we get into the budget, and we are down to two more. Some of the details that the member is looking for will be contained in the budget which will be tabled on Wednesday. Decentralization Brandon, Manitoba Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): How can this government even begin to pretend that it is decentralizing jobs to the city of Brandon when it has already elimi nated more than it is planning to bring there ? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker , it was not more than a week and a half ago that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey), myself and, I believe , the member for Brandon East were in attendance of the opening of a new office in Brandon.

There was a creation of eight more jobs, and I can assure you that the decentralization program is working well. There have been a number of offices opened, not only in Brandon, but other rural centres as well. Hay Commission Report Government Response Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the minister responsible for the Civil Service.

I would like to quote from a report from the Manitoba Civil Service in which we cite one of the senior managers, and I quote: The minister knows whenever there is a vacancy and can ensure that an individual of the right party colour will be hired or that an individual of the wrong party colour will not be hired. Mr. Speaker, this i�inte�ection] It is true. It is a report that the minister himseH has tabled . The Minister of Labour responsible for the Civil Service said that, and I quote: I am going to act as quickly as possible, he said; we have a long way to go. Well, this minister is going backwards.

I am going to ask the minister quite specifica lly. When does he plan to act on his commitments that he has made, not only to the Legislature of this Chamber, but to the people of Manitoba? Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister responsible for and charged with the administration of The Civil Service Act): Mr. Speaker, I am not familiar with what report the member for Inkster is refe rring to. He did not identify it in his question. There are numerous reports on various subjects. He has not identified which report it is. I have tabled a lot of reports in this House.

Beside the point, operations of government currently to hire for a position req uires the approval of the minister to open up that position for competition. What happens after that is the responsibility of the depart ment, if they had dele gated the authority, and the Civil Service Commission. Mr. Lamoureux: This review, for the minister, if he wants to know, is the Review of the Recruitment, Selection and Classification Process within the Manitoba Civil Ser vice. It was the Hay Management Consultants- familiar with the report? I would advise the minister- Mr. Speaker: Question, please.

Women's Directorate Hiring Process Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Status

1054 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 of Women. Can the minister tell the House what kind of qualifications the rejected candidates had and what qualifications Ms. Harvey had that the others did not? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): I have to say with great dismay that the questioning from the ethics critic from the Liberal Party is quite unethical. Mr. Speaker, this is a serious issue, and rather than memb ers of the Liberal opposition laughing, I would appreciate their listening to the answer so that in fact they can understand.

Obviously, from the critic's comments in the paper last week, he has absolutely no understanding of a Civil Service process. An open competition was held for the position of ADM of the Women's Directorate . A Civil Service board was held, who screened the applicants, and their rec ommendation to the minister was that there was only one person who should be interviewed by the minister. Minister of Culture Hiring Authority Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the Premier, and it is a question of percep tion, and the perception of- Mr.Speaker: Order, please .

Does the honourable memb er have a question? • (1 430) Mr. Lamoureux: I ask the Premier, Mr. Spe aker: Will he today agree to have an independent Civil Service study of the whole matter regar ding the hiring, not of this particular case, but additional cases through this particular minister? He has a responsibi lit y here. Will he live up to his responsibilities? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I just point out the contradiction in the memb er's questioning that, when he starts out by quoting the Hay com mission report, the Hay report was comm issioned by this gove rnment as an independent study at the request of the Manitoba Women in Government at a meeting that was atte nded by all three Leade rs. They all said this independent commission should come up with a report. That report indicated that there were not enough women being promoted into senior levels of the Civil Service, among other things.

This gove rnment has appointed a long-term civil servant who has been there for almost 15 years and is emi nently well qualified to an assistant deputy minister position within the framework of the responsibility of this government, in a manner that is available to the government, to ensure that qualified people can be appointed to senior levels of gove rnment. Here we are increasing the numbers of people at senior levels of government, who are women in senior respo nsibility, and we have the Liberal Party criticizing it. I cannot believe it, Mr. Speaker. I cannot believe the contradiction.

They are all over the map, and they do not know where they are on any issue. Economic Growth Wage levels Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson) Mr. Speaker, this gov ernment has had some dif ficu lty in understanding just how hard hit Manitobans have been by the reces sion, seeing day after day the impact on average Manitobans. Now the news from Stats Canada that, during the last year, Manitoba had the lowest growth in wages and salaries of any province in the country, at .7 percent well below the national averag e, well below many other provinces. My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

I am wondering if the minister has studied the impact of this depression level of wage growth in the province, the impact on the Manitoba economy specifically in term s of lost jobs, because of the fact that we are 1Oth out of 1 0 in terms of average income growth over the past ye ar. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Mnlster of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I have difficulty in tying the honourable mem ber's logic to the figures that he is quoting to job creation in term s of the percentage increase in wage levels to the actual creation of jobs.

He is quoting from Statistics Canada, and I would hope that he has had an opportunity to read all of Statistics Canada's projections for the economy of Manitoba. When he looks at issues like capital investment proje ction by Statistics Canada in 19 92, Manitoba will have the highest manufacturing percentage increase in all of Canada and about the second highest private sector investment in all of Canada. Those are the kinds of indicators that will lead to job creation and opportunities for all Manitobans. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, is the minister not concerned about what is happening, the fact that Manitobans are 1 Oth out of 1 0 in terms of income

March 9, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1055 growth and the fact that it is killing the retail sector, killing the Manitoba ec onomy? Does he have no concern about what is happening to average Manitobans? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, obviously I do not accept any of the

preamble of the honourable mem ber from across the way. Clearly we do have concerns, and that is why we have taken the kinds of steps that we have over the last fou r years in this province to create the positive economic climate for individual Manitobans. That is why the Conference Board of Canada is predicting in 19 92 that Manitoba will have the third largest growth rate in all of Canada. I have already cited the statistics in private sector investment, the second highest in Canada; manufacturing investment, the highest in all of Canada; the unemployment rate, the second lowest in all of Canada.

Clearly, some of the numbers, Mr. Speaker, we would prefer to see better, but you have to put issues in perspective in terms of what is happening in all of Canada. When you compare Manitoba to the rest of Canada, and you look at all of the economic indicators, Mr. Speaker , the outlook for Manitoba is very positive. Borden Company Ltd. Closure Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, how can this minister continue to say that when even just this very minute I have received news that another plant- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member kindly put your question, please . Mr.

Ashton: I asked how the minister can say what he just said when we have just received news that another plant, the Borden Catelli pasta plant, in Winnipeg is being closed , another plant closure, Mr. Speaker, while this minister ignores the reality of the economy in Manitoba. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I am notsure what the questionwas there, Mr. Speaker, but clearly the memb er need look no further than a week ago and the kinds of positive announcements that are also taking place in this province.

Once again, far too ofte n, member s from across the way always atte mpt to dwell on the negative instead of the Versatile announcement of a week ago whereby 600 to 700 Manitobans will retain their jobs, and 10 0 new jobs will be created through a company that will distribute throughout the world by relocating an outfit from Belgium here to Manitoba. We have Advance Acous tics manufactu ring, 25 new jobs announced last week. There are all kinds of positive announcements out there . I have already cited the economic indicators, Mr. Speaker, that Manitoba is positioned well to move ahead in the '90s.

Indian Birch Reserve Child-Welfare Worker Ban Mrs. Shirley Render (St. VItal): My question is for the Minister of Justice. In Saturday's paper, there was an

article which alleges that a Native child welfare worker and her family were expelled from the Indian Birch Res erve. The same

article goes on to allege that that woman's social assistance was cut off by the chief and council. It also goes on to say that this child welfare worker was assaulted by mem bers of the band councillor's fam ily. Now, it seems as if there was an abusive action against this woman and, perhaps, an abuse of power. I am sure that all members in this Chamber share a concern with me. Could the Minister of Justice te ll us what he is going to do about it? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speak er, if the allegations contained in the weekend's news media are true, then more than ever, we need to get aboriginal leadership involved with the kinds of issues discussed earlier today by our Premier (Mr. Filmon) and by the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs. Mitchelson) respec ting the status of aboriginal women. The reports that I have seen are shocking indeed. The allega tions are shocking in te rms of the way aboriginal women are going to view their situation in this province on rese rves.

The allegations such as that the chief and band councillors are uncles of the children appre hended, allegations like one of the band councillors is the stepf ather of the people alleged to have beaten this worker, the fact that this worker is a mother herself with six chHdren and alleged to have been banished from her residence are all extre mely serious matte rs which I propose to take up with the chief of the band, and if I do not receive satisfactory explanation, to take it furt her.

1056 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 Workers Compensation Board Medical Specialist Reports Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, for at least the last two years, there have been ongoing concerns of injured workers and others in Manitoba as to the conduct of some medical staff em ployed by the WCB, the Workers Compe nsation Board in Manitoba. Threat ening lett ers, Mr. Speaker sent by WCB lawyers to worker representatives only inflame the already serious situation that we have here.

Will the minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board explain the policy of his department when the dispute arises between reports from independent medical special ists versus that of paid WCB medical staff? • (1 440) Hon. Darren Praznlk {Minister responsible for and charged with the administration of the Workers Compensation Act): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be very pleased to explain the process to memb ers of this House and to the member for Transcona. Mr.

Speaker, medical staff for the Workers Compensation Board, which have been in place there for many, many years, going back to various administrations including the last administration of the member for Transcona, are advisors to the board. They do not make decisions in individuals' cases of adjudication. Adjudication is conducted by the adjudicators. Of approximately 85,000 cases that can be dealt with at the board during a year, about 50,000 new ones and about 35,000 ongoing in any given year, only about less than 5 percent have a review by the board medical branch.

Wherever there is a disp ute , the actual adjudication, as I said, is made by adjudicators, not by medical practitioners at the board. Where there is a diff erence of opinion between board doctors and outside doctors, the claimant is entitled to a medical review panel. Of all of those claims, there were only 32 medical review panels conducted last year. Certainly there are procedures in place, processes in place, and the recomme ndation or commentary by an individual board doctor would not be the deciding factor, or would not be the place where a decision is made. Mr.

Reid: Can the minister explain then why the WCB can refuse to accept the unanimous opinions of three independent medic al specialis ts and, instead, reject an injured worker's claim of recurring injury resulting in the loss of income and the break up of the family unit? Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Speaker, the member for Transcona is bringing an individual case, I gather, on which a situation is based. I will tell him, of 85,000 potential cases that are handled in a year, there are about 300 appeals and about 32 medical review panels.

Just to put it in perspective, again, where there is a difference of opinion between medical practitioners, either inside or outside of the board, claimants are entitled to medical review panels, adjudicators make their decision. There is also an appeal process in place where a claimant unhappy with the decision can make an appeal to the appeal commission on which there is a commissioner nominated by labour. I can tell the member, in some of the cases which he has raised with my offi ce, some of the issues that he has raised, the appeal has resulted in a unanimous decision by the appeal panel.

Although we are concerned about cases, there are processes in place, Mr. Speak er, to deal with that and ensure that claimants have a fair opportunity to present their case. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statements Mrs . Louis e Dacquay (Seine Ri ver) : Mr. Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical state ment? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Seine River have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Lea ve? It is agreed. Mrs.

Dacquay: I rise today also to express my sincere congratulations to Connie Laliberte and her Manitoba curling team on their victory at the Scott Tournament of Hearts on Saturday, March 7. As the MLA for Seine River, I would be remiss if I did not wish skip Connie Laliberte, a resident, and her team continued success and best of luck in Germany on behalf of the constituents of Seine River. I would request that all memb ers of the House join with me in extending Connie and her team our best wishes for continued success as Canada's repr es e ntative at the world championship. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

March 9, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1057 Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Norber t have leave to ma ke a nonpolitical statement? An Honourable Member: Leave . Mr. Speaker: Leave . It is agreed . Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Speak er, I rise today to pay tribute and congratulate the Fort Richmond Centurions on their win of the first ever Manitoba high school hockey championship. The Centurions shut out the St. Paul's Crusaders 1- 0 last night at the Winnipeg Arena before an impressive crowd of 3,200 peop le. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to salute the head coach Mr.

Gord Poulton and his staff for their efforts and dedication. In addition, I would like to single out the MVP of the game, Fort Richmond goalte nder Pap Cloutier, for his impressive performance throughout the three-da y tournament. I salute this team of young people for their acc omplis hments in hock e y and for their demonstrated ability to perform so well as a team. Congratulations to all of them. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) have leave to make a nonpolitical state ment? An Honourable Member: Leave . Mr. Speaker: Leave . It is agreed. Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speak er, I want to add our congratulations to all the people involved in the high school hockey tournament and the playoffs that took place right across Manitoba. I have always believed that high school hockey-1 think this is very important-is a great way for Canada to go and a gre at way for Manitoba to go. I think we all know of people whom we grew up with who had to quit school to go to play junior hockey if they ever had any tale nt or ability.

Many of those people who quit school did very well in pro hockey later on, but others who did not do so well in pro hockey are left without the kind of education that they need. I have always believed that it is a great- Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Is it a confession, Gary? Mr. Doer: The Premier (Mr. Almon) says it is a confession. There is only one way to find out, when his ankle is better we can go out on the ice and find out. Mr. Fllmon: I meant about the lack of educat ion. Mr. Doer: Oh, okay . Confessions are big. Confessions are very big in the school I used to attend.

I would like to congratulate both the winner the Fort Richmond Collegia te and the runners up who beat Fort Richmond last week but lost 1- 0 in the final. The St. Paul's Crusade rs, as I understand it, had a great team . I think we should congratulate everyone who has really pushed high school hockey in Manitoba. I think it is a tremendous idea, and I can see the day where high school hockey tournaments will fill the arena in Winnipeg and fill up the arenas all across this province as kids play hockey in their high schools and in our school system across Manitoba. I congratulate everybody involved in it. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Rur al De velopment have le ave to mak e a nonpolitical statement? An Honourable Member: Leave . Mr. Speaker: Leave . It is agreed. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, this past weekend Foxwarren, Manitoba, home of Pat Falloon and Ron Lowe was the site of the MAHA Provincial B Atoms Hockey Tournament. Championship teams from throughout the province, as far north as Cross Lake, gathered in Foxwarren to det ermine who the provincial champion would be .

To begin with, I would like to congratulate and thank the Foxwarren community for being excellent hosts at this tournament. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Foxwarren home team , the Fort Ellice Atoms, for capturing the silver medal. I would like to ask mem bers of the House to join me and my constituents in congratulating the Russell Atoms team for an excellent performance , an outstanding perform ance, in gaining the Provincial B Atoms championship for the year. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) have leave to make a nonpolitical state ment?

An Honourable Member: Leave . Mr. Speaker: Leave . It is agreed . Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, this past weekend, I had the opportunity to atte nd a banquet comme morating the 20th anniversary of Inter-Universities North. I was pleased to be able to be joined by my colleagu e the memb er for

1058 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 Rupertsland (Mr. Harper) and many staff, many represe ntatives from the three universities that prov ide pr ogr amm ing to Inter-U niversities North-University of Manitoba, Unive rsity of Winnipeg and Brandon Universit y-and most importantly to many of the instructors and students who have participated in the last 20 years of Inter-Universities North. There were a number of presentations that were made which I feel should be noted in the Legisla ture. Recognition was given to Emily Sawicki, a form er resident of Thompson. She was the first all IUN gradua te .

She took all her courses through Inter-Universities North, in fact, graduated in 19 79, the first of a number of students who have gone all the way through using Inter-Universities North. There were also presentations of the newly establ ished Dr. Willard J. Condo award. Dr. Condo was very involved in university aff airs and before his death was the head of the Universities Grants Comm ission, a very strong su ppor te r of Inter-Universities North. Recognition was given to Shirley Lyon, the previous director of IUN for her efforts and Dr.

Blanar who also was very involved in the development of Inter-Universities North through his role as Dean of Arts and through his various assoc iations with Brandon University. I would like to, I am sure, express the best wishes of all memb ers of the Legislature for the past 20 year s and the hopes, Mr. Speak e r, that Inter-Universities North, with its unique combination of three separate institutions all working together providing education in the North, could be used as a model for many other jurisdictions across the country. Thank you. .. (1 450) Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable First Minister have leave to make a nonpolitical state ment? Some Honourable Members: Lea ve. Mr. Speaker: Leave . It is agreed . Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I want to join in the congratulations that are being given to a number of very worthy sporting organizations as a result of tremendous achieveme nts by Manitoba teams during this past weekend.

I want to congratulate in particular the GPAC men's cham pionship basketball team, the Universi ty of Winnipeg We smen, who on the weekend in Brandon won the GPAC basketb all men's championship in a tremendous contest with Brandon University, I might say. If indeed there is I think honour and respect amongst those who choose the wild card berths, there may indeed be two teams because Brandon University has been rated No. 2 in the nation throughout most of the season and may be a candidate for one of the wild card berths to go along with the University of Winnipeg to the final eight in Halifax next weekend.

Congratulations not only to the Wesmen and their coaching staff, all the players and fans who supported them throughout the year, but also to those who were recognized for their achievements in GPAC this year. It was a great year for Manitoba players , and I might say that the entire first team all star from GPAC were Manitoba players beginning with Eric Bridgeland of University of Manitoba, Keith Vassel and Dave Nackoney of Brandon University, Jeff Fore man and Norm Froemel of University of Winnipeg, and the most valuable player for GPAC was, of course , Eric Brldg eland.

The second team all-stars included as well players from the province of Manitoba, Harvey Marshman of Brandon university, Garth Thompson, a Brandon native, who played for the University of Manitoba and Greg Filmon. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you call the government resolution standing in the name of the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), to be followed by Bill 45 and the bills listed on the Order Paper in the order as shown, Debate on Second Readings . PROPOSED RESOLUTION Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speak er, I mo ve , seconded by the honourable Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs. Mitchels on), the following motion, WHERE AS the government of Manitoba, based on the recom me ndations of the Women's Initiative Report, endorsed the philosophy that abuse is a crime and must be stopped ; and WHER EAS a public awareness campaign was under taken in February, 19 90 , to promote awareness that partner abuse is a crime; and

March 9, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1059 WHERE AS the Pedlar Com m ission rec omme nded the community must take an active role in red ucing and elim inating domestic violence. TH EREF ORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Legisla tive Asse mbly of Manitoba support the position adopted by the government of Manitoba in declaring Manitoba as a domestic violence-free zone, where partner abuse is viewed as a criminal offence , and in adopting a tough stance against partner abuse. Motion presented. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, this is an auspicious day for me to have the honour to move this resolution in this House.

In beginning my comments it would be good, I believe, for all of us to remember the work done by the Women's Initiative and the report presented by that initiative, headed up by Gerrie Hammond, a fo rmer member of this House and for mer distinguished Minister respo nsible for the Status of Women, and to thank her and those who participated in the Women's Initiative for the work they did to help instill in all of us, government and community, an understanding of the importance of the issue of domestic violence in our society.

Rowing from the Women's Initiative, there was indeed a public awareness campaign in 19 90 to promote awareness that partner abuse is a crime. That campaign also promoted the fact that for abused women in our society there is indeed help and there is nothing to be lost and everyth ing to be gained by coming forward and seeking help in the times when violence renders the lives of women in our society as a terrible experience. A number of other initiatives came forward, Mr.

Speak er, not the least of which, of course, was the Pedlar review and the work done by Dorothy Pedlar and those with whom she consulted in preparing her report for gove rnment, so that we can go forward and try to help create that violence-free zone that we want Manitoba to be. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) It is a very noble goal for us to work toward, and it is not a goal that can be achieved solely by government working in isolation from everybody else. I believe everyone is going to agree about that.

There will be various degrees of disagreement about how we achieve the goal that we all agree we want to achieve . The deaths of too many Manitoba women, Madam Deputy Speaker, prompted me to request Winnipeg lawyer, Dorothy Pedlar, to conduct a review into domestic violence in Manitoba. This report, the Domestic Violence Review, is the first of its kind in Manitoba and perhaps in Canada. There has not previously been such a comprehensive report that examines domestic violence from so many perspective s, and I think that is partially due to the mandate Ms.

Pedlar had, but also partially due to the kind of person Ms. Pedlar is. The work that she di d was extre mel y thorou gh and comprehensive, and therefore we believe that Dorothy Pedlar is an excellent person to remain on the project, if you like, and help us see it through. Our government's release of the report last November sent a strong signal to the community and to the women of Manitoba that we as a government will continue to take action. The goals of the report are the goals of this gove rnment. The report presents our government with a concrete plan of action to tackle domestic violence head -on.

To prioritize and imp lement the report, I have established a working group comprising key gove rnment of ficials from the Departments of Justice, Family Services, Status of Women, Education and Health. This group has begun work. I have asked my department to provide me with a report by the end of this month outlining everything our government has done so far in response to the Pedlar review and in the area of domestic violence. Today, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to highlight the actions this gove rnment has taken to date or is active ly pursuing to tackle domestic violence.

I want to do that partly because honourable memb ers opposite somet imes in the heat of debate tend to try to minimize the work that this government has done, and I am always going to agree with honourable memb ers opposite when they say, as the honourable member for Welli ngton (Ms. Barrett) did earlier today, that we have an enormous distance to go.

I am not going to disagree with that because all you have to do is look at the daily cases in our courts and the daily police files to know that there are still far too many women facing terrible and terrifying experiences and sometimes paying the supreme price for the lack of better syste ms to protect them . * (1 500) I wantto do itfor that reason, because honourable memb ers opposite will make inaccurate allegations

1060 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 about the progress of the government. I also want to do it to underline that there is reason to be hope ful about that enormous distance we have to go and how we are going to get there. There is reason to be hopeful because of the performance of the past nearly four years of the present gove rnment, and I should say the previ ous government and actions it took as well, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have expanded and stre ngthened and standardized the charging directive. That was the charging directive brought in by Roland Penner in 19 83.

We have expanded, strengthened and standardized it, ensuring that the police lay charges in all cases of partner abuse where evidence exists. There is mandatory prosecution by our Crown attorneys of all partner abuse offences where evidence exists. We are pressing for no bail, or at the very least, conditions on bail for all domestic offe nders. We are stre ngthening the mandatory education programs for domestic violence offe nders at all corrections and probations facilities. We are prosecuting offe nders who fail to attend, participate in or complete the mandatory education programs.

We will develop standard policies and protocols throughout the justice system to ensure domestic violence is dealt with as a priority and in a consistent manner. With respect to edu cation and training of participants in the justice system on the social dynamics of domestic violence, in June, our Prosecutions Division will be hosting a joint conference with the judiciary and the private bar to examine domestic violence. Our Crown attorneys will also be participating in the upcoming western Crowns' conference on domestic violence.

In 19 90, Madam Deputy Speak er, we est ablished the family violence court, and that was something that Ms. Pedlar commented on in her report, and she commended the government for the initiative. That is a centerpiece , in a way, of our efforts in the area of domestic violence. The independent analysis of the performance of that court has been extremely positive in the sense that domestic violence cases are being handled much more expeditiously in our court system and much more sensitively as well.

Expeditiously is extremely important, the exper ts tell us and, of course, you do not need to be an expert to know that for every day that a victim is facing an abusive issue without resolution, every day can seem like an eternity. H you are frightened, if you are scared, if your children are fright ened, scared, it is a terrible, terrible experience, and the shorter we can make that experience, the better.

It is too bad it has to happen in the first place, but when it does and we are realistic enough to know that things like this type of offe nce will continue against our will, even in a domestic violence-free zone , and when it does happen, we have to deal with it as sensitively and expeditiously as we possibly can. That court has been held to be an example for other jurisdictions. It is the first of its kind in our country, perhaps beyond and judging by the results it is achieving, we feel that we might see that kind of concept developing elsewhere.

It is actually a specialized, integrated unit devoted exclusively to abuse cases, and we are going to continue our commitment to ensuring that victims of abuse are treated compassionately and sensitively by enhancing the operations of this court, as that is so very much required. In the past, Madam Deputy Speaker, when the traffic, if you like, before that court has increased to the point where it has put significant pressure on the system , this government has responded by ensuring that that court is properly resourced so that we can keep meeting our targets.

The independent analysis shows that we have been doing that. We remain committed to the operation of that court, touching as it does so many people involved in abusive situations in this city. I am not satisfied either that this kind of concept can be available only to women in the city of Winnipeg. I have been criticized in the past by some opposition memb ers for being so much in favour of the principle of decentralization and providing services to Manitobans outside the city of Winnipeg.

Well, that is a criticism I will accept, because I do think that Manitobans outside Winnipeg ought to be the recipient of services as reasonably equal as we can make them, to those services available to people in the city of Winnipeg. Of course you cannot expect conditions to be exactly the same in all areas outside the central city of this province, but certainly we owe it to our citizens right across this province to bend every effort , to ensure that reasonable services are available to peop le.

We want to extend the concept of the family violence court all across the province, but certainly we are making good headway in terms of setting up such a court system in Brandon to serve the southwestern area of our province.

March 9, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1061 We are com mitted to strengthening and enhancing the women's advocacy program which serves the family violence court. That was another matter recom mended by Ms. Pedlar, and another recommendation we take very seriously indeed. We have begun discussions with our provincial and federal counterparts on ways to elim inate delays in the court syste m.

I refer specifically here, Madam Deputy Speak er, to the preliminary hearing that that anachronism of the justice system, as I have called it in the past-1 have raised this matter repeatedly with federal and provincial ministers. I believe the idea is beginning to be received more positively than it has in the past. The fact is there are ways to see that the defence in criminal cases are given the kind of disclosure that they need in order adequately to represent their clients.

We do not have to have a preliminary hearing every time there is a case of assault, or many kinds of cases that are dealt with in that way and have been for generations need not be dealt with that way any more. Eve n the British , who began this British system of justice, gave up the prelimi nary hearing sometime ago. We still have it, and I think that the reason we still have it is that I have not yet been successful in making sure my colleagues across this country, including the federal Minister of Justice , feel that it should be done away with.

I think the prelimi nary should be done away with as quickly as possible and replaced with another system to provide the same kind of disclosure that defence counsel need. I do not question for a moment that defence counsel need disclosure in order to adequately represent their clients and to ensure that the principle of presumpt ion of innocence is carried forward, because I do believe in that principle, and I believe that guarantees our libe rty in this country, that principle among other things.

The liberties of those people who are not guilty of offe nces, those are the ones I am most concerned about because those who are guilty of offences I feel differently about. I feel we need to go eyeball to eyeball with those people who are offenders and abusers. We need to do that in a way that works, not just a way that is strict retribution, because we know already retribution and revenge does not re ally solve anything. We know that it does not protect women and children.

What we do know works best is some kind of way to make abusers understand what they are doing is wrong, for them to take some kind of responsibility for their actions and to stop abusing their power which is sometimes balanced too much in their fa vour, and to stop abusing their spouses, partners and children. • (1 51 0) We need to examine more effective ways of prote cting women by both stre ngthening the existing system of restraining orders as well as looking at possible alternatives within provincial jurisdiction.

Honourable me mbers have heard repeat edly, women especially, saying that restraining orders are not worth the paper they are written on. We take that criticism seriously, Madam Deputy Speak er, and we propose to strengthen the restraining order. In doing that we are going to develop proposals to make restrai ning orders easier to obtain, while ensuring stricter enforcement and punishment for breaches as well as consultations with police of ficials to greater enforce peace bonds and prosecution of breac hes.

Maybe one of the reasons that some people have said that rest raining orders are not worth the paper they are written on is bec ause, in the past, police authorities have prioritized these restraining orders differently from what they are today, and what we expect will be the case as we go fo rward. We expect to see restraining orders being given a new respect in the justice system , and that women and children will be the beneficiaries of that protec tion. We expect to have ongoing discussions with policing agencies and the judiciary to discuss those recommendations affe cting them.

I have to say that rather than being frustrat ed, like I sometimes am, I have to say I am pleased and I am encouraged by the response that I received so far from these groups. We are examining ways of utilizing the resources of the Victims Assistance Fund to enhance counselling and services for the victims and child vic tims of domestic violence . This Victims Assistance Fund, which is often discussed in this House by the honourable member for St. James (Mr.

Edwards), was recently used to provide a grant of over $1 00,000 to victims of domestic violence in the Interlake area, and here I refer to Nova House in Selkirk. I would like briefly to comment on some of the initiatives undertaken by my cabinet colleagues. I commend the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

1062 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 Gilleshammer) for his foresight in appointing Ms. Marlene Bertrand as director of Family Dispute Services. As the former director of Osborne House, Ms. Bertrand will be a valuable asset to this government as we continue our efforts in this area. I know Ms. Bertrand because of my job as Minister of Justice. I have had occasion to consult with Ms. Bertrand; in fact, I consulted with Ms. Bertrand in the setting up of the Pedlar review which has proved to be so helpful to us. I look forward to a very, very positive working relationship with Ms.

Bertrand because her extensive experience and knowledge in areas relating to family disputes is not questioned, I do not think, by anyone. I do not think even the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) would want to get after Ms. Bertrand's qualifications, and so far I have not heard anything, but you never know with that honourable member, Madam Deputy Speaker. Other Initiatives undertaken by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) include the development of a n ew funding model to shelters.

This new model will allow shelters to plan over the long term their staff and service requirem ents without being hampered by short-term fluctuations in bed nights, cash flow problems and deficits . This government has increased funding support for women's crisis shelters, crisis lines and women's resource centres by $2.5 million or 19 3 percent since 198 7. I know the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) is going to have a word or two to say in this debate, and I look forward to her contrib ution, but, you know, we were talking earlier about comparing governments' performances and so on.

I do know one thing, after six years in this Legislature, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the New Democrats talk a darn good line, but I have also found out, through the bitter experience of being in opposition and watc hing them up close, that talk is really all we got. The performance of the last four years by the present government belies the kinds of comm ents honourable members opposite sometimes tend to make ab out Pr og ressive Conser vative administrations, as if they alone had some kind of monopoly on looking after problems like this.

When you look at the record , it almost makes me want to cry, when I see the record of the New Democratic Party in these areas. It makes me want to cry more when I see the hypocrisy that I see day in and day out in this House, and I say hypocrisy without fear of contradiction by the honourable member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) because if she wants to contradict, then we can get into a debate about how the New Democ rats have sat idly by and allowed a very powerful labour leader in this country to treat grandm others worki ng in the un ion movement with such disdain, and the use of violent expressions with such abandon. I can only assume by the silence of honourable members opposite that they put their union bosses ahead of what is really right in this country.

What Daryl Bean stands for is not right in this country, and I expect to hear from honourable members opposite that Daryl Bean must go; otherwise, if I do not hear that, I am going to assume that anything the New Democr ats tell me about violence against women is coming from hypocrites. The silence is indeed deafening, Madam Deputy Speaker. The development of a major media campaign in 19 90 which I referred to earlier, Abuse is a Crime, aimed at the prevention and the reporting of partner abuse, that was a very important turning point in the way we Manitobans view domestic violence .

I will tell you, the government learned a lesson or two from that cam paign, too. We learned that governments taking leadership roles can create activity and can create demand on systems that have heretofore been funded to a large extent by government. We did that with our eyes open, in the same way that we established the family division of the Court of Queen's Bench in the city of Brandon. We knew what we were doing. We knew we were creating pressure on the judicial facilities in Brandon.

Of course, my friends opposite like to make light of the fact that we need better facilities in Brandon, and I am the first one to agree that this is so. I am also the one who is doing the work in terms of discussing these matters within government in order to plan ahead for faci lities in the future. The fact is we are going to have a unified family court service in the Court of Queen's Bench out of Brandon and anywhere in this provinc e that people want to access that kind of service.

I am proud of that, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am proud that I helped cr eate the pressure that is going to ultimately result in better court fac ilities in the Westman area. But I am also proud to have been part of government that put forward that Abuse is a Crime, television media campaign, becau se, yes, we did face an increase in pressure on our

March 9, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1063 shelter system. But we matched that increase of activity with funding incr eases for the shelter system, probably seco nd to none anywhere in this country . It cert ainly dwarfs the performance of the previous government in this province. So sometimes you know, I say, we move forward with our eyes open.

Some would like to say that there has been no planning, but those people who say that do not look at the numbers, do not look at the budget figures year over year for the provision of support for the shelter system and other systems that are intended to help women and chi ldren in our province. I have a note, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I cannot read the signature at the bottom, so I will not be able to quote that person. As I was saying, we can be proud of the progress we have made so far, but that is never to say that there is not much work to be done.

No one is going to say that as long as there is one woman, as long as there is one child in this province who is being abused and not being afforded proper protec tion, that problem will remain with us, and as long as I am in this job I will remain vigi lant about this and keep moving forward in this area. The government of Manitoba funded the first crisis shelter for abor iginal wom en in Winni peg -and I think it is pronou nced lkwe-Widdjiitiwin, if I have that right-and a new resou rce centre fo r Francophone women, Pluri-EIIes.

I am also pleased about the stand that our government has taken today in support of aboriginal women. While the abuse of any woman in Manitoba is totally unaccept able, there is no question that aboriginal women face even greater obstacles, and aboriginal women need even greater support and co-operation from all politicians in this province including aboriginal politician s. It is estimated that one in six women in Manitoba is abused. For aboriginal women this figure is one in three. It is a tragic , tragic statistic that needs addressing.

I look forward to working with the aboriginal women's co mmunity in the development of programs and policies to address their particular needs and concerns. You know, what is important about the announcement made today that the hon our able Leader of the Lib erals was so uncomplimen tary about, is the recognition that aboriginal women are getting through such policies as the one announced today. I take it the honourable member for River Heigh ts (Mrs.

Carstairs) underestimates the importance of that recomme ndation by her response today to the mi ni sterial statemen t made by the Min ister responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs. Mitchelson) . I am disappointed, when we have a leader of a political party in Manitoba, that once proud Liberal Party that had 21 seats in this House, now reduced to six. I am very disappointed that the leader of that party would trivialize the issue of aboriginal women's rights and aboriginal women's status in this province the way that she did today. Normally, that honourable member has more class than she had today.

Some of the things I have spoken of are just some of the actions that our government has taken to try to break that cycle of violence. * (1 520) While government will cont inue to do its part, it is critical that we recognize domestic violence as not just a government problem. Ms. Pedlar stated in her review, and I quote: While the response of the justice system to domestic violence is critical , the larger issue of the role of the commu nity must be addressed to achieve long-term preve ntive measures. This means that government and the commun ity have to work together to stop the violence.

The way to work together is to stop all the sniping that goes on and seriously to work together and understand that we have serious problems in this province. Community input is key in order to eradicate those societal attitudes and perceptions that allow violence against women to cont inue.

It is those same societal attitudes and perceptions that led to the kind of situation that we have at the Indian Birch Reserve, Madam Deputy Speaker, and all of those things that we do not like to see seem to be played out in a newspaper story that was reported in the weekend's Free Press respecting an aboriginal child-care worker who allegedly was beaten after apprehending children on the Indian Birch Reserve. This person allegedly has been banned from the commu nity by the chief and council.

As I said a little while ago, we need support and we need a new direction from aboriginal political leaders, some of whom, former aboriginal leaders, sit in this House. I look for leadership from them, too. I look for leadership from the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper) , I look for leadership from the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin)-bot h of them

1064 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 9, 1992 former chiefs. I wonder what they think about stories like this and whether they view issues like this and the alleged abuse that had to be undergone by the woman named in this story. I wonder how they feel about it, and why are they not here to speak out against that kind of thing. Now the fact is, these are allegations, and I am always carefu l about allegations that we see in the newspapers as I think we all ought to be.

When I see the allegations that I see in Saturday's paper 1 get very, very concerned, and I have instructed my department to draft for me a letter so that I can get a hold of the chief of the Indian Birch Reserve to find out if there is any truth to this. The chief, apparently, was not-what does it say in the paper? It says that the chief refused to explain the actions yesterday when contacted at home. Well, when such serious, serious allegations are coming forward, I wonder why it is that no explanation is forthcoming immediately.

Chief Stevenson is very concerned about the reputation of the chiefs in this province when it comes to allegations of misconduct in relation to child welfare oases, very concerned about the reputation of the chiefs. It did not take him very long with a whole lot of other chiefs to find themselves here at the Legislature for a meeting with members of this government. Those same chiefs could not find it possible to meet with us about the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry about which their friends in the New Democr atic Party and, notably today, the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs.

Carstairs), speaking in such glowing terms of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report, but those chiefs were not there to talk about the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. They were there to talk about comm ents made by me and others that might have some negative im pact on their reputations. Well, I am more concerned about the negative impact on aboriginal women and children in this province, who daily are su bjected to abuse. I am more concerned about them than I am about the perceptions of the damage to the reputation of the chiefs. I do not want anybody's reputation to be damaged unnecessarily or wrongly.

Of course, that is what I am supposed to be here to stand against, and I do. It seemed an unholy haste to me, almost an indecent haste to me, to be out looking after one's own reputation. I just wonder where our honourable members opposite stand on those kinds of issues when they rise in their place to criticize this government about the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. Where do they stand? You get the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hiokes) for example, who says, oh, well, let us go with every single recommendation in the AJI and enact it as those two judges suggested we should.

We got the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) today using a new word, "independent" justice systems, so she does not have to use the word "separate." Well, you know, she is a pretty clever politician, Madam Deputy Speaker, and she is watching her words closely. I know exactly what she is doing, trying to play both sides of the fence as she has been doing around here since she came here in 19 86, elected the same day I was, and playing that game for six years. An Honourable Member: Ah, you have been watching her. Mr.

McCrae: Yes, I have been watch ing close, and I will tell you Madam Deputy Speaker, the aboriginal women of this province are not impressed. Point of Order Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second OpposHion): Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the minister, in an issue on domestic violence, would want to make sure that his voice did not have overtones of violence in it. Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Second Opposition does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over facts . *** Mr.

McCrae: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not going to take any lessons on voice intonation from the Leader of the liberal Party. She does not like it when she is criticized for the way she uses her voice , and I re ally do take some offence that the honourable memb er for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) should talk like that about me when I get a little bit emotional about the issue of domestic violence. I say shame on that honourable member for playing petty politics with that, too.

If I was her, I would say I demand an apology, but I am not going to say that, because coming from her, I do not know if it would be worth getting anyway. So I think I have made myself clear. I hope I have. If anybody wants me to repeat the way I feel about violence against women, aboriginal women, and

March 9, 1992 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1065 other women and children in our society, I will tell you one thing, I disagree with Daryl Bean. I disagree to the point where I think that man should be removed from his office, and I ask all honourable members to join with me in calling for that. I disagree with the allegations I have been seeing and hearing about the treatment of aboriginal women and, unfortunately, allegedly at the hands of their own political leaders.

Madam Deputy Speaker, if these allegations in the newspaper are true, can you imagine how any aboriginal woman in this whole province can feel vis-a-vis their relationship with their political leaders at the reserve level? Does anybody care around here in the opposition? When have I heard anybody in the opposition say that the chiefs ought to do a better job in protecti ng the women on their reserves? What does Phil Fontaine say about this

article in Saturday's Free Press, Madam Deputy Speaker? I have not heard a peep. Why? Phil Fontaine has a very delic ate job on his hands. He is selected by whom to speak for aboriginal people in this province? Selected by the chiefs. Something is wrong here. Everybody knows there is something wrong here, and everybody on that side of the House is afraid to talk about it. They want to rely on the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report-talk about, no not separate anymore, but independent cour t systems so that the elec ted people of Canada and the elec ted people of Manitoba can play no role.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I am certainly not here to defend federal and provincial governments' performance for the last 12 5 years in their dealings with aboriginal people. Make no mistake about that.

I am here to tell you that I know enough about what goes on on Manitoba reserves to know that there is a very, very big problem which will not be solved without their being addressed by aboriginal leadership, i.e., chiefs and councils working together with aboriginal women who are showing real leadership in this province, and not getting enough su pport from honou rable memb ers opposite in the Liberal and New Democratic Parties. Now, you know, if I have raised my voice, Madam Deputy Speaker, and this offends the honourable Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs.

Carstairs), then it is only because she does not understand how important this issue is. She has demonstrated to me by her laughter today and her attitude today in response to the honourable Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs. Mitchels on), she does not understand aboriginal women's issues, and she has demonstrated that very clearly to me. I am very disappointed because I thought the Leader of the Liberal Party was better than that, I honestly did. • (1 530) She is talking about picking cheap political personal shots at the Pr emier (Mr.

Filmon), and taking cheap shots at me because of the tone of my voice. I just cannot figure that out. I am obviously not impressed, and the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) wants to get in the act and make light of this issue too. This is one of the most important issues fac ing all Canadians and certainly Manitobans. I am very glad to see that the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lath lin) is here to listen and hear what is going on with respect to the chiefs of this province, and the allegations being made about them with relation to women on reserves. They are very, very disturbing reports.

You know, when I say it is disturbing that I read a report like this in the newspaper, what happens? Chief Stevenson suggests that I am convicting the man without the benefit of trial. pnte�ection] The hon ourable member for In kster (Mr. Lamoureux) wants to come to the aid of people like Ch ief Stevenson who has said publicly that provincial governments have no jurisdiction on First Nations lands. That is the person the honourable member for Inkster wants to support.

Pnte�ection] He sounds ju st lik e Ch ief Stevenson, the honourable member for Inkster, and I guess he is speaking for the Liberal Party, too-pnte�ection] If the honourable member for Inkster wants to sit there in his seat and stick up for the attitude that Chief Stevenson has displayed in this province, let him go ahead. I am not going to. It causes me concern that the likes of Chief Stevenson should occupy a position of power, a position like justice chairman for the Assembly of Chi efs, when he suggests that the provincial government has no jurisdiction on First Nations lands.

That caused me no end of concern, but of course it does not bother the member for Inkster because maybe anarchy suits him better. Well, it does not me. I hope that the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) will read my commen ts in Hansard . I think they need to be read by people like the honourable member for The Pas , because he is an influential person. He has a chance to make a difference . That is why I presume he-

1066 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 9, 1992 An Honourable Member: Your whining has backfi red, right. You made mention of that earlier. Mr. McCrae: If the honourable memb er for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) wants to get in on the act and defend the silence in the light of allegations like this, then let him do that. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, the minister brought in a resolution. Debate on the res olution should obviously relate to that.

The minister ought not to be bringing In the kind of personal accusations he has made against memb ers of this House or attemp ting to put words in the mouths of others and atte mpting to take political advantage of very serious allegations. That memb er should withdraw some of the comments he has made today about the member for The Pas (Mr. Lat hlin), the memb er for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper) and other memb ers of this House. It is uncalled for and has no basis to do with this resol ution. I would like to ask you to have him withdraw those inappropriate comments and to restrict his comments to this resol ution.

Hon. Darren Praznlk (Deputy Government House Leader): The Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) is debating a very Important serious issue. The memb er for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has talked about politics, has talked about political innuendo. He Is certa inly an individual who has been on that opposite side of that question and on many occasions done the exact same things as he is now accusing the Minister of Justice of doing. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a debate on a resolution before this House.

The Minister of Justice certainly had the opportunity to put the questions to this House that he has about the actions of the opposition parties on this issue. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson does not have a point of order, but I would request all honourable memb ers to choose their words care fully. I would suggest that the honourable minister should keep his debate relevant to the proposed resolution before us. *** Mr.

McCrae: I will indeed, and have , I hope, been choosing my words care fully because of the position I hold In this province, but I will use this position that I hold in this province to bend every effort to bring people on side and to understand the seriousness of the issue that I am talking about. The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) clearly either does not understand the gravity of this problem or else wants to ove rlook it. For what reas on, I will not guess, because that is not the right thing to do.

If the honourable member wants to talk about sleazy personal attacks, he can direct his comments to people like Chief Stevenson and talk to him about those kinds of attacks that have been made. Let us talk about the real issue, Madam Deputy Speaker, instead of the cheap politics which the honourable member for Thompson wants to talk. Let us talk about the real issue. Whether you use the words "separate justice system", "independent justice system," as the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs.

Carstairs) now wants to use that kind of language, tell me how a separate justice system or an independent justice system would have saved the J.J. Harper tragedy. Tell me how Helen Betty Osbome would be walking with us today if we had a separate or independent justice system. Te ll us how that woul d have saved either of those individuals whose lives were tragically snuffed out. Tell us how a separate justice system or an independent justice system would help a single mother looking after children in the city of Winnipeg.

How would that system help them to live a better life or their children to achieve the kinds of potential that they should be entitled to achieve just like your children or my children? Tell me how that would happen. pnte�ection) The honourable mem ber for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) now wants to get into it. I assume she is going to, and when she does, I want her to join with me in calling for the removal of Daryl Bean from office as the leader of 17 0,000 Public Service Alliance of Canada employees, many of whom are women whom that gentleman's views do not represent in the least.

You can tell me that he just found this quote somewhere and accidentally it found its way into his letter to those three grandmothers who were writing to him, but she will never have me believe that he did not adopt that kind of description of scabs, as he called them , and what ought to be done with them, that they ought to be hanged or drowned.

March 9, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1067 Now honourable memb ers opposite have been very silent about this. [interjection) Yes, the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) does not agree. The honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) belongs to an organization that does not agree . Well, what are you doing about it?-is my quest ion. What are you doing about it? You sit in your place and talk about sleazy politics and yet you let your union politics hold sway over what is right for the people of this country.

That is wrong. (inte�ection] I would like some order so I can finish my comments. * (1 540) Madam Deputy Speaker, I rarely see the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) get so worked up unless it has to do with protecting some union boss somewhere, getting in the way of what is right for the people of this country--{interjection) Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Praznlk: Point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, I appreciate that we all react in the course of debate , but the member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) has pushed that beyond the limit when his heckling from his seat-w hich I admit we all engage in from time to time-has silenced the memb er who has the floor. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would ask if you would call that member to order. Mr. Ashton: Madam Deputy Speaker, I apologize if I took offe nce to the remarks of the minister. My concern was that the minister was using the Chamber inappropriately, particularly libelling individuals pre viously, chiefs, former chiefs as a group, making specific reference to individual members. That was why I took offe nce.

I put my apologies forward for having disrupted this House by it, but I also hope that the minister would refrain from those types of comments and stick to the very serious issue. Madam Deputy Speaker: I thank the honourable member for Thompson for those comments. *** Mr. McCrae: Madam Deputy Speaker, a careful review of my comments will demo nstrate that I have slandered or libelled no one.

The honourable member for Thompson is simply very extremely sensitive when it comes to union bosses and the language they use when it comes to calling people scabs and suggesting that the only good thing to do with a scab is drown them or hang them. It is in the name of protecting union bosses who want to use that kind of language that the honourable memb er for Thompson takes his

part in the House today. Now, it will be interesting to hear where he stands on where Daryl Bean stands with relation to people generally and how he writes letters to grandmothers working in federal public service in particular. I am very concerned about that, and I would like that concern to be shared by people in the oppositi on. This is International Women's Day. This is a day for us to support things that move in the right direction and to condemn things that have the tendency to move us in the wrong direction. I have been talking about attitudes today. I have been talking about silence today.

I have not attempted to malign anyone, personally or inappropriately. If we do not talk about these things when are we ever going to do something about abuse against aboriginal women? Are we ever going to, or are we going to continue to protect those who sit silently by while it happens? pnte�ection) Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will shout about issu

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-25a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 25a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	626d568d058922c15cd31a2ac27ce20c3dd8dc4f

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