Manitoba Hansard — 25 April 2005 (Sitting 35, 38th Legislature, 3rd Session)

38-3-35

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVI No. 35 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, April 25, 2005 (REPRINT)

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1737 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 25, 2005 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Pembina Trails School Division–New High School Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Overcrowded schools throughout Whyte Ridge, Lindenwoods, Linden Ridge and Richmond West subdivisions are forcing Pembina Trails School Division to bus students outside of these areas to attend classes in the public school system.

Elementary schools in Pembina Trails School Division have run out of space to accommodate the growing population of students in the afore- mentioned areas. Five-year projections for enrolment in the elementary schools in these areas indicate significant continued growth. Existing high schools that receive students from Whyte Ridge, Lindenwoods and Linden Ridge are at capacity and cannot accommodate the growing number of students that will continue to branch out of these subdivisions.

Bussing to outlying areas is not a viable long- term solution to meeting the student population growth in the southwest portion of Winnipeg. The development of Waverley West will increase the need for a hi gh school in the southwest sector of Winnipeg. The government is demonstrating a lack of respect for the students and families in Whyte Ridge, Lindenwoods, Linden Ridge and Richmond West by refusing to provide adequate access to education within the community. The Fort Whyte constituency is the only constituency in the province that does not have a public high school.

NDP constituencies in Winnipeg continue to receive capital funding for various school projects while critical overcrowding exists in schools in Lindenwoods, Whyte Ridge and Richmond West. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to recognize the need for a public high school in the southwest region of Winnipeg. To request the provincial government, in conjunction with the Public Schools Finance Board, to consider adequate funding to establish a high school in the southwest sector of Winnipeg. Signed by Path Gilbert-Green, Catherine Kloepfer, B.

Mills and many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. * (13:35) Ambulance Service Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: In May 2004, 46-year-old Peter Krahn suffered a heart attack while exercising in East St. Paul and was pronounced dead just under an hour later after being transported to the Concordia Hospital in Winnipeg. Reports show that it took nearly 18 minutes for an ambulance to arrive for Mr. Krahn.

The Interlake Regional Health Authority claims that 21 minutes is an acceptable emergency response

1738 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 time,

whereas the City of Winnipeg uses a benchmark of 4 minutes. Ambulance coverage for East St. Paul is provided from Selkirk, which is almost 25 kilometres away. The municipalities of East St. Paul and West St. Paul combined have over 12 000 residents. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider providing East St. Paul with local ambu- lance service which would service both East and West St. Paul.

To request the provincial government to consider improving the way that ambulance service is supplied to all Manitobans by utilizing tech- nologies such as GPS in conjunction with a Medical Transportation Co-ordination Centre (MTCC) which will ensure that patients receive the nearest ambulance in the least amount of time. To request the provincial government to consider ensuring that appropriate funding is provided to maintain superior response times and sustainable services. Signed by Rudy Peter, Emily Peter, Murray Peter and many others. Minimum Sitting Days for Manitoba Legislature Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 35 days in 2003. In 2004, there were 55 sitting days. The number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability. The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties.

Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year. Signed by W. McDonald, Andrew Parkinson and L. Sanders. Closure of Victoria General Hospital Maternity Ward Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

The background to this petition is as follows: It has been decided that the birthing ward at the Victoria General Hospital in Winnipeg, Manitoba, will be closed. Some say the birthing ward is being closed due to safety issues. It has been proven time and time again that outcomes for normal pregnancies in normal women are better in a community hospital like the Victoria General Hospital than in a tertiary care centre like the Health Sciences Centre and with a general practitioner or midwife rather than an obstetrician. Not a single study has ever shown the contrary.

Obstetrics services at community hospitals can work if the political will is there to make them work. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) to allow women options when they give birth and to consider stopping the planned closure of the Victoria General Hospital maternity ward. Signed by Michael Chartrand, Erin Risdale, Wanda Levasseur. Provincial Road 355 Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1739 These are the reasons for this petition: The unsafe conditions of PR No. 355 from the western edge of Minto municipality to PR No. 270 (including the hill out of the Minnedosa valley), poses an undue risk to Manitobans who must travel on this roadway. The steady stream of traffic on this stretch of PR No. 355, which includes automobiles such as "B" train semi-trailer tractors, mail delivery vehicles and school buses, make the roadway in its current state dangerously impassable.

Continued expansion of the regional economy in livestock development, grain storage and trans- portation and the proposed Mohawk Plant, puts additional strain on PR No. 355 and creates further safety concerns for motorists. PR No. 355 experiences an increased risk in traffic flow during the spring season when there are weight restrictions on surrounding provincial trunk highways. For several years, representatives of six municipal corporations, as well as an ad hoc citizens' group have been actively lobbying the provincial government to upgrade and reconstruct the stretch of PR No. 355 at issue.

Manitobans and visitors to the province deserve a better rural highway infrastructure. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux) to consider upgrading PR No. 355 from the western edge of the R.M. of Minto to PR No. 270 (including the hill out of the Minnedosa valley). To request the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) to consider supporting the said initiative to ensure the safety of our Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along Manitoba highways. Signed by Donald Morgan, Helen Catlin, Roy Longstaff and others.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS The Planning Act–Bill 33 Hon. Scott Smith (Minist er of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade): I move, seconded by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers), that Bill 33, The Planning Act, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, this bill replaces the planning act. The bill proposes changes that would modernize and streamline the legislation, introduce new planning tools and provide new opportunities for public input. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] * (13:40) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today Peter and Mary Wiebe who are the grandparents of our legislative page, Amos Wiebe and Mr. Volker Gerhardt of Frankfurt Au Mein, Germany. Also in the public gallery we have from Academy of Broadcasting 25 students under the direction of Mr. Brad Middleton. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Minto (Mr. Swan). Also in the public gallery we have from Sir William Osler School, Adult ESL Program, 17 students under the direction of Mrs.

Mary-Jean Davis. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Maples Surgical Centre Meeting Request Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, under this NDP government there are some 1200 children suffering because they cannot get timely access to dental surgery. Manitobans are being forced to live in pain every day because they cannot get timely access to

1740 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 hip or knee surgery. Wait lists have grown longer, yet this NDP government has solutions put before them and they refuse to deal with it. In February of this year, Maples Surgical Centre submitted a proposal to government that if accepted would dramatically reduce the backlog of ambu- latory surgical cases. To quote the February 7, 2005, letter which I would like to table, Mr. Speaker, so that the government has it, to quote the February 7, 2005, letter from Dr.

Mark Godley sent to the Health Minister, and I quote, "We are prepared to offer large quantities– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I am quoting from the letter sent to the minister. "We are prepared to offer large quantities of flexible operating room time at our cost. We have a highly efficient facility with low administrative overhead that is capable of per- forming more than 600 surgeries per month for the health regions of Manitoba. This is enough capacity to dramatically reduce the backlog of ambulatory surgical cases.

For emphasis, we are offering your ministry and any of its associated Health Authorities surgical services at our cost." Mr. Speaker, will the Premier commit today, if he believes in providing services for children and for seniors, to meet with the Maples Surgical Centre to at least discuss their proposal? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I would note that the real challenge for orthopedic surgeries in Manitoba is the challenge on anesthetists and on the orthopedic surgeons themselves. We have been able to recruit more orthopedic surgeons.

That is why we have been able to announce another thousand surgeries. Since the letter has been provided, I think we announced another 300 dental surgeries at the Misericordia hospital. We certainly know when we look at advancements at Concordia Hospital, and I was just there on Saturday, there are considerable more operations taking place now. The volumes have gone up dramatically but, Mr. Speaker, the real challenge for us is to get more orthopedic surgeons in Mani- toba and anesthetists here in this province. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, on that very basis, if the Premier is worried about it, I would remind him that Doctor Godley whom he refuses to meet with, is an anesthetist; he is. So Manitobans are living in pain, they cannot get timely access to care because what we hear from this Premier are excuses and rhetoric. Manitobans want this Premier to put his ideology aside so that we can finally deal with the situation that deals with young children in Manitoba and seniors, Mr. Speaker.

Maples Surgical put a proposal together to this government some months ago, a proposal that would have allowed hundreds of surgeries to be done at cost, less expensive than at hospitals, but this NDP has not even acknowledged the proposal. * (13:45) Mr. Speaker, for the government's purposes and the minister, I would like to table this proposal so they have it. I would like to quote from the proposal that says, "The Manitoba Maples Surgical Centre will offer all health authorities an all-inclusive hourly facility fee that is calculat ed at the operating cost of the centre.

These calculations will be reviewed with the appropriate government authorities to ensure full transparency. It should be readily demonstrable that MSC is able to provide services at a cost significantly below that of a typical hospital." Mr. Speaker, in Manitoba, if somebody shows cruelty to animals they are charged, and rightly so. Why is it, under this NDP government, they continually show cruelty to seniors and to young children? Will he do the right thing and meet with Maples? Mr.

Doer: The only cruelty ever demonstrated in this province was the Leader of the Opposition in his campaign promise to only fund health care at 1 percent. At 1 percent, Mr. Speaker, there would have been thousands of beds closed, thousands of surgeons would have left this province, thousands and thousands of patients would have been waiting even longer periods of time. His platform is an absolute disaster for health care in Manitoba. We are proud to debate his platform any day of the week. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, the member from Russell wants to yell from his seat.

Let me point out that in 1998 the Government of Manitoba, under former Premier Filmon, studied the waiting lists–

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1741 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I will table that study later today for the member opposite because in Manitoba, the Manitoba study conducted in 1998, waits for cataract surgery patients whose doctor practiced in both private and public sector were two and a half times as long as patients whose doctors practiced only in the public sector. So when members opposite talk about study this proposal, we did. Mr. Murray: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker , the honourable First Minister loves to watch Rocky and Bullwinkle and Mr.

Peabody in the Wayback Machine, but that is all about the past. This is all about the future. This is all about now. This is all about what he is not doing for the children and seniors of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the Maples Surgical Centre was specifically designed for orthopedic surgery. I quote from another letter that was sent to this minister, "Given the government's recent news releases regarding the desire to reduce orthopedic surgery wait lists, we would have thought that the interest in our proposal would be particularly high.

For many years now, we have been tireless in trying to have a meaningful dialogue with the Government of Manitoba to achieve a simple and very noble goal to help reduce people's pain and suffering." Mr. Speaker, perhaps we can ask this First Minister not to think of himself as the leader of a socialist party and perhaps he can think of himself as a father who might have children that are suffering and a father who has grandp arents that are suffering, and do the right thing and meet with the Maple Surgical Centre if he cares. Mr. Doer: We moved 600 surgeries to Thompson, Mr.

Speaker, when they were located in Winnipeg before. Perhaps the member opposite would think about the kids in the North who used to be shipped down south. We moved surgeries from Winnipeg to Lac du Bonnet and Beausejour. Maybe the member from Lac du Bonnet would start standing up for the fathers and start thinking like fathers in Lac du Bonnet. We increased the surgerie s by 300, Mr. Speaker, at Misericordia hospital at a lower cost than the proposal from the member opposite. * (13:50) Maples Surgical Centre Meeting Request Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Speaker, two and a half months ago, this Minister of Health received a proposal from Maples Surgical Centre which offered to significantly reduce surgical wait lists in our province at cost, and the Minister of Health, to this day, has yet to even respond. At a time when children are suffering on wait lists for pediatric dental surgery and patients are suffering on wait lists waiting for orthopedic surgeries, how can this Minister of Health justify ignoring a proposal which would have relieved the pain of thousands of Manitobans? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, when we moved dental surgeries to Beausejour, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) voted against the equipment to make that surgery possible. When we announced 600 additional dental surgeries at Misericordia hospital, they did not stand up and support that even though the cost was lower than the cost that was offered to us from private sector clinics. Mr. Speaker, the whole initiative of this government is to bring surgery and medical practices closer to home, closer to the 1400 surgeries that are moving to Selkirk, for example, surgery closer to home. New surgeries in Ste.

Anne, new CT in Portage la Prairie, MRI in Brandon, move the surgery and the capacity out to the community where they can enjoy those services closer to home. We are cutting waiting lists. Surgical Procedures Statistics Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, on December 1, 2004, this Minister of Health announced 600 additional pediatric dental surgeries at Misericordia and on March 9 announced an additional 1000 orthopedic surgeries at Concordia.

We know today that the Maples Surgical Centre could have already completed 550 of these pediatric dental surgeries and yet a number of the orthopedic surgeries as well. Can the Minister of Health tell us how many pediatric surgeries have taken place to date at

1742 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 Misericordia hospital and how many additional orthopedic surgeries have been completed at Concordia? I think that Manitobans would be interested to hear the answer. Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): When my predecessor, the honourab le Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr.

Chomiak), announced the completion of two specialized surgical suites at Concordia Hospital to centralize more of our hip and knee surgery at that excellent community hospital, we announced that there would be an additional hundred hip and knee surgeries there during this year, Mr. Speaker. I am told that the actual number completed was 108, so we have met our target in that regard. Just as we met our target in that regard, we will meet our target in regard to the 600 dental surgeries at Misericordia hospital. Maples Surgical Centre Meeting Request Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Speaker, I understand the Minister of Health has yet to even visit the Maples Surgical Centre. I would suggest to him today that I would be happy to arrange for a tour of this outstanding facility for him because he obviously, and I would hope he would take us up on that to see what a state-of-the-art facility we have here that can reduce wait lists significantly for Manitobans. For the last two and a half months, this government has been sitting on a proposal that would have significantly reduced surgical wait lists in our province at cost, Mr. Speaker.

Why does the Minister of Health continue to allow his ideology to get in the way of what is in the best interest of the patient? Will he agree today to meet with the officials of the Maples Surgical Centre because, again, we would be happy to arrange it for him? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): If the member wants to see a modern surgical suite, Mr. Speaker, she might visit the Brandon Regional Health Centre. She might visit the two new ORs that are purpose built at Concordia Hospital.

She might want to take a tour, even though it is not quite finished yet, of the Critical Services replacement program at Health Sciences Centre, the larg est capital program in Manitoba's history in the health care system. Perhaps later this summer, she might visit Swan River general hospital, a brand new hospital with state-of-the-art equipment, Mr. Speaker. We have committed to 1600 additional surgeries, hips and knees and dental surgeries. We will make that target as we did at Concordia this year. * (13:55) Youth Violence Reduction Strategy Mrs.

Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): On April 16, a 12-year-old girl was playing in a playground in the 700 block of Manhattan Avenue when two girls approached, assaulted her and robbed her of her clothes and jewellery. This incident supports what Winnipeg police are saying, that the number of incidents of youth violence is escalating in our province. Police spokeswoman, Constable Glover, has indicated we are dealing with more youths who are involved in violence and, unfortunately, there are a number of victims who suffer as a result of it. Mr.

Speaker, how many more children victims will there be before this Justice Minister will take action on the issue? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Mr. Speaker, I remind members opposite that the government introduced a budget that increases funding so that we can have 54 more police officers in Manitoba. It increases investments in corrections. It increases investments in prosecutions. The Community Safety branch under The Safer Communities Act is strengthened. So far we have closed down over 92 drug dens and prostitution houses. Mr.

Speaker, we all have to work together though. The challenge of violence is a community challenge that requires the rallying of resources, yes, but also vigilance on the challenge of violence. I will just remind members opposite that youth violence is always a concern. It appears to be decreasing, but, at t h e s a m e t i m e , w e e k t o w e e k w e h a v e g o t t o b e vigilant. We are doing that. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, I wish he would check his stats. Youth violence is not decreasing. This is a government that spends more and gets less.

This is a very serious issue when po lice are saying that calls are increasing at an alarming rate. The attacks are taking place where children are supposed to be safe in school hallways, in school playgrounds and in parks.

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1743 Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Justice is not providing Manitoba families with any comfort in knowing their children are safe. Why is this minister not taking ownership and leadership on this issue? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is our understanding, and this is not a figure that is ours, but youth violence went down 5 percent the last time we were advised of trends in this province. Is that enough? I think we have to do better always. Youth violence has to go down to a much greater extent.

I understand it is down over 1999, but we are continuing to invest in resources. They are the ones that voted against 54 more officers in this budget. We also brought in, I should remind members opposite, the police in schools initiative. I hope that can expand, and many more initiatives, including issues about violence at a very young age, those under age 12 who cannot be charged under the Criminal Code, Mr. Speaker, and the program Turnabout. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, this is little solace for the families that have had to deal with their children being injured and threatened and this government doing nothing.

Youth violence is escalating in our province. I ask the Minister of Justice this: No more headlines, no more press releases. We want action. How many more tragedies such as have occurred over the past few weeks will have to occur before this government takes a meaningful stand and takes action on the issue? Do something. Mr. Mackintosh: Which reminds me of another initiative in the budget that members opposite did not support; we have, as a result of an election commit- ment, promised to double the number of Lighthouses in Manitoba from 20 to 40.

It is my understanding that, in the first full year of the Lighthouses initi- ative, 8000 youth attended at these sites, Mr. Speaker– An Honourable Member: What measures are you putting in place to help the families? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, the member asked a question I am prepared to answer, Mr. Speaker, but we now have 34 Lighthouse sites in the province of Manitoba. Four new ones are set out in the budget. I wish members opposite had supported that. That is an initiative to make sure that we are not turning off the lights in our friendship centres, our community centres or our schools after hours, Mr.

Speaker, and are engaging youth and looking for community-driven, positive alternatives and role models for our youth so that we can reduce the level of youth violence beyond the 5% reduction that we have seen over the last year, 2003. * (14:00) Hydra House Recovery of Costs Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, last week we were led to believe that over $800,000 would be recovered from the $1.5 million that was missing at Hydra House, but, once again, this NDP government has not been completely honest with Manitobans.

Working capital advance is not part of that $1.5 million, so there is a cost recovery of only $350,000. Why did the Minister of Family Services mislead Manitobans? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table documents for the House. They are, in fact, the documents that comprised the press kit at the announcement of our new partnership with St. Amant Centre last week, in that there is clearly– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Melnick: In that kit that I ha ve just referred to there is a breakdown of th e agreement.

Certainly I believe that this is not misleading Manitobans. I think that we presented information at a press conference about the breakdown of the monies that we are speaking of. That is, in fact, open and trans- parent government. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, this is just another example of how this government treats this House with disdain. Mr. Speaker, if the minister had not been asked the question, she would not have tabled the

1744 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 information. This is information that she provided to the press and to the public, but there has always been a tradition in this House that members of this Legislature always receive that information either at the time that the press conference is issued or very shortly thereafter. Mr. Speaker, this minister now chooses not to do it in Tabling of Reports, not to do it at any other occasion, not to do it with a Ministerial Statement, but, in fact, only when she is asked the question. I think this is an abuse of the rules of this House. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): When an opposition complains when a government provides answers to a question, you really wonder, Mr. Speake r, why did they ask the question in the first place. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mrs. Taillieu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, but this document clearly indicates cost recovery of $350,000, not $800,000, as claimed. Mr.

Speaker, in assessing the homes, the report said most but not all of the betterments were included in the appraised va lue. The report indicates betterments amounted to $150,000, but this NDP government decided to give Hydra House $500,000 instead. This is money that taxpayers expect to be used for care of vulnerable people and not to line the pockets of Hydra House executives. Why did this minister give Hydra House executives $500,000, instead of the required $150,000? Ms. Melnick: Mr. Speaker, we relied– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Melnick: Mr.

Speaker, we put three elements at the top our list. The first was care, the second was to cut ties with Hydra House as soon as possible and the third was to respect taxpayers' dollars. We relied on the expertise of lawyers, of engineers, architects and appraisers. We received reports around the state of the current Hydra House homes, Mr. Speaker. Part of that is part of what I just tabled in the House, around the betterments of the houses to prepare them for the sort of service they are needing to provide.

This was all part of the agreement we put together to ensure that we could keep care at the level it has to be kept for these Level 5 very vulnerable people. We respected the advice we got from the experts to allow us to cut ties with Hydra House as soon as possible. Mrs. Taillieu: Well, Mr. Speaker, if I can buy house A for $25,000 and house B for $50,000, and I decide to buy house A and pay $50,000 so that Hydra House can get that money, that is just not acceptable. The fact is there is only 350,000 that was recovered and another 350,000 went to the executives at Hydra House. So there is no recovery at all.

Why is this minister misleading Manitobans and protecting Hydra House? Ms. Melnick: Again, when we speak of the recovery of costs, Mr. Speaker, they are all laid out in the documents that were released last Thursday. I am happy to inform the House we were able to recover all the costs for the meals, all the costs for the enter- tainment activities and all the costs for the Cadillacs which were purchased under members opposite. On top of that, Mr. Speaker, we negotiated the cost per house would be approximately 166,000 as opposed to current market trends.

By the way, I want to mention that the housing market in Winnipeg is hotter than it ever was in the nineties. We were able to negotiate 166,000 per house as opposed to almost 200,000. Tataskweyak Cree First Nation Hydro Payment Investigation Mrs. Bonnie Mitche lson (River East): Mr. Speaker, questions have been raised regarding the openness, accountability and transparency of Manitoba Hydro dollars and Province of Manitoba dollars that have been flowing to both NCN and

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1745 TCN. Community members in those communities are asking questions about accountability, and Manitoba Hydro ratepayers deserve to know the dollars being spent can be accounted for and there is some openness and transparency. Mr. Speaker, I wrote to the minister of Hydro asking for some very specific details around expen- ditures in those communities. Has the minister directed Manitoba Hydro to provide those answers? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister charged with the administration of Th e Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr.

Speaker, in the past, with respect to Hydro and Hydro mitigation, the previous governments have spent half a billion dollars in post-mitigation efforts after the Hydro dams have been put up. We embarked on a different course by working with communities in advance for training, for environ- mental studies, for pre-engineering work. Hydro has embarked with communities on a community- community basis. In addition, Mr. Speaker, Hydro and those communities are undertaking referendums whether the community agrees or disagrees. In both commu- nities that the member ha s referenced referendums will be held.

There were previous referendums. In fact, in the Split Lake region, the referendum passed 250-some odd to 50-some odd people in favour of proceeding. There will be another referendum undertaken by people who inhabit the communities. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, as the minister responsible for the ratepayers' dollars that have increased by 10 percent under this administration, will the minister responsible for the dollars that are spent at Manitoba Hydro stand in this House today and tell Manitoba Hydro ratepayers and those com- munities that he is satisfied with where the dollars have gone? Has he investigated?

Is he satisfied that those dollars have been spent appropriately? * (14:10) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, just in terms of comparison purposes, I might add to the member opposite that we have seen telephone rates increase by 68 percent since the privatization of the Crown corporation, which is precisely what the members wanted to do with Manitoba Hydro and were setting it up for privatization. We think it is a utility that should be a benefit for all Manitobans with the benefits in the future in terms of hydro-electricity.

As I indicated in this House when the member raised the question in the House several weeks ago, the chairman, CEO, of Hydro is looking at the issue as well as the Hydro audit committee are examining issues of spending. The Hydro audit committee includes people like Carol Bellringer, former Auditor for the province of Manitoba, and others who are undertaking to review those particular matters. Mrs. Mitchelson: My question is very simple to the minister responsible for Hydro.

Can the minister indicate to the House today whether he is satisfied that the proper checks and balances were in place under his watch and that the money has been spent appropriately? Mr. Chomiak: I would invite the member that when Hydro comes before the committee, which Hydro is prepared to do at any time, the member will have the opportunity to personally request any information from the CEO in Hydro on any matters that might concern her. She will have the opportunity to do that.

The committee can meet at the convenience of members of the House and we are prepared to do so, so she can ask Hydro those questions directly. She has experience in that area since she served in the Cabinet where they had opportunities to interact with Crown corporations. Those questions can be asked at the Hydro committee. Crocus Fund CentreStone Ventures Investment Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): At meetings on September 23 and November 18, the board members of Crocus were told that there was a serious crisis looming and the fund was overvalued.

Yet, on November 27, Crocus along with the Government of Manitoba announced a $25-million investment in CentreStone Ventures. This fund included $4.75 million directly from government whose board member sits on the Crocus board, a million dollars from Manitoba Science and Technology, whose deputy minister is a former board member at Crocus, $4 million from WCB where Wally Fox-Decent chairs WCB. He sits on the board of Crocus. Alfred Black now is over at Crocus. Sherman Kreiner sits on the investment advisory committee, $2 million from MPIC, TRAF for $10 million. These are all connected to Crocus.

1746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 How is it possible with this litany of interrelationships that this government could make this type of investment at this particular time without any discussion with the NDP government that indicated that there was a crisis at Crocus? How could this possibly happen? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): I remind the members opposite that, once again, we do not direct the management of the fund. We do not direct the investments of the fund. We do not operate the fund. The fund operates independent of the government.

The second point that was incorrect from the member opposite is we do not have a board member per se from government. What it is is a government- appointed board member who represents the shareholders. It does not represent government. The person represents shareholders and, unlike members opposite, we did not appoint political people to the board. We appointed a civil servant, a civil servant who represents all Manitobans and has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders of the fund. Mr. Loewen: If there were not so many Manitobans being hurt by this, his answer would be pretty laughable. Mr.

Speaker, $4.75 million directly from government, the government who appointed the Crocus board member; a million dollars from Science and Technology, whose deputy minister was a former board member; $4 million from Workers Compensation, whose chair sat on the Crocus board, whose senior investment person is now running the fund. Sherman Kreiner, the chair of Crocus sat as an investment advisor to WCB; $10 million from the TRAF fund.

Alfred Black, government-appointed chair of TRAF now over at the Crocus Fund, also involved with WCB; $2 million from the Crocus Fund where Sherman Kreiner as CEO sat on the investment council, the investment advisory council of the Workers Compensation Board. There are just too many ties for any Manitoban to believe that this government does not have its fingerprints. What did you know and when did you know it? Mr. Rondeau: First, Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Science and Technology Fund was a privately managed setup under the Tories.

If you look at the failed investments of the fund, Isobord, made under your watch; that was a $7-million loss and then eventually grew larger. Westsun started investment under your watch. Winnport Logistics, another $6.7- million loss, started and made under your loss. I assume that you did not direct the $35 million of losses that I just let yo u know on. I assume that you did not direct those losses. What I assume is you kept hands-off, as we have kept hands-off. We did not direct the fund. I assume you did not. Mr. Loewen: Well, Mr. Speaker, the question is who did the due diligence on this fund?

The haste and timing of this $25-million investment on November 27 is both troublesome and unseemly. While board members at Crocus were aware that the fund was overvalued, that there was an impending crisis, they made a co-inv estment with the Govern- ment of Manitoba. Who did the due diligence? Or is it reality that this minister and his staff, along with the NDP government, conspired with others to make this investment at this time so it would be done days prior to the halt in trading of Crocus? What is the government's involvement in this sordid investment? Mr. Rondeau: Mr.

Speaker, I assu me under the $35 million of failed investments that I just announced, members opposite were in government when those investments were begun, I assume that you did not direct those investments. I assume, like under our watch, we allowed the management and board and the investment people of Crocus to do the appropri- ate due diligence and make the appropriate investments. We have continued to make sure that the investment committee and the investments are hands-off as far as our government.

We intend to ensure that there are independent investigations by the MSC and the Auditor General so that they find out exactly the answers to the questions the member opposite does. We do not want to politically interfere with the investigations. We do not interfere with the investment decisions of the fund. I assure the members opposite and all Manitobans such. Hydra House Tax Evasion Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): The Auditor General's report provided details of many occasions where Hydra House or its employees did not pay taxes appropriately.

In one instance, the Auditor General points out that bonuses and other payments

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1747 in excess of $234,000, paid to members of the Hydra executive, were not re ported for income tax purposes. In other places, personal items charged on credit cards and personal use of Cadillacs, were not reported either. Can the Minister of Finance tell us what the shortfall was in provincial taxes due from Hydra House, its owners and its employees as a result of the errors revealed by the A uditor General? What steps have been taken by his department to collect the additional taxes owed? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, the member knows that we cannot discuss specific taxpayers with respect to income tax matters. I can assure you that a full investigation is being done, and there is a repayment component in the settlement that was arrived at Hydra House. That repayment component was for monies that should not have been received by the private owners which are now removed from running that organization Mr. Gerrard: Well, I am surprised that the minister cannot provide us some monetary details after all this investigation. It is almost a year.

Surely the Minister of Finance can answer this sort of a question; but if he cannot, I have another question for him. Have charges of tax evasion been laid against the owners of Hydra House, and what is the status of the investigation and the charges? Can the minister tell us? * (14:20) Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, we have a national revenue collection agency which investigates these matters. We do not discuss the specifics of that in the Legislature.

That agency is empowered to look at whether the tax acts and the tax laws of this country, including this province, have been properly administered and whether they have received the appropriate resources, according to the level of taxation of the individuals in question. I am sure they will do their job, and if there are some recoveries to be made I am sure the agency will follow up on that. Crocus Fund Interim Financial Statement Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, 30 000-plus Manitoba investors invested all sorts of different types of savings into the Crocus Fund.

The NDP spin doctor is out indicating anything to do with the Crocus Fund, it is distant, put it away, we want nothing to do with it. There are so many links to the government clearly demonstrating that they were involved, Mr. Speaker. Now what we find is that the Crocus is now almost a month late in filing its interim financial statement for the period ending September 30, 2004. What is the minister doing with the respect to the late filing by Crocus Investment Fund? When is the evaluation report going to be released? Take responsibility. You were involved. Tell this House what is happening. Hon.

Jim Rondeau (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): I would like to correct a few things before I answer the question. First, it is not a direct government board. What happens is the MFL signed an agreement in 1992 with Mr. Stefanson that it would be a labour- sponsored venture plan, which is labour-sponsored, which has the independent board of governance, which is independent of government, which invests independent of government and is run independent of government. So that is the first thing. Second thing for all members it is important to know that there have been issues.

This has been recognized by the MSC, so they have extended the filing deadline until June 30 of this year. Manitoba Crop Insurance Payments Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): I am amazed. Again, throughout Question Period, members oppo- site have not seen fit to ask a question on behalf of the farmers in our province. Mr. Speaker, 14 members of their 20-member caucus are from rural Manitoba and they have not seen fit to recognize the crisis that is facing our agriculture producers today. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of all the farmers, the ranchers, the grain producers in our province, I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives what our government has done in the past year through Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation to help our producers in this situation.

1748 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that my colleague cares enough about the producers of Manitoba to ask a question in this House. Mr. Speaker, the Memb er for Interlake has raised a very important issue and that is, indeed, that many producers went through a very difficult year last year. Many had a late harvest, many were not able to harvest. As a result, Manitoba Crop Insurance paid out the highest payment in history, paying out $190.5 million. Mr.

Speaker, there are stil l 900 crops that are out in the field, and Manitoba Crop Insurance and their agents will continue to work with those producers. They have been able to forgive them some advance claims so those people who have crops out there will not have to wait until this spring to get everything, all their money. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Ste. Rose, on a point of order. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture neglects to inform the House that much of the money going out on special pro- grams can be deducted from the much-touted and poorly managed CAIS program. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Perhaps if the member opposite had some concerns or questions about agriculture, he could wrestle with his colleagues, Mr. Speaker, to try and prioritize the question. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Ste.

Rose, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Emergency Preparedness Week Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform the House that May 1 to 7 is Emergency Preparedness Week. Each year Manitobans face many emergency situations which could have devastating cost. Emergency Preparedness Week brings governments, citizens and first responders together to identify potential risks and reduce the severity of conse- quences if disaster strikes.

Our government realizes the importance of having an effective and efficient first response sys- tem for all Manitobans. Call volumes for rural emergency medical services have been on a steady rise since 1991, and ambulance responses have more than doubled. In order to deliver faster response times, and more efficient co-ordination and development of emergency medical resources, our government will be opening a new Medical Transportation Co- ordination Centre for emergency services in my home community of Brandon.

The new MTCC will become the dedicated centre for the dispatch of all rural and northern emergenc y medical services. This centre is a step towards a comprehensive approach to creating a modern emergency system where all Manitobans will have access to consistent, safe and effective emergency services. Our government takes great pride in supporting first responders and work ing with them in their efforts to help keep Manitobans healthy and safe. The work of first responders is crucial to our province and deserves the admiration of all Manitobans.

Each day firefighters make huge sacrifices to protect Manitobans by exposing themselves to numerous safety hazards which have long-term effects on their health. Our government believes their sacrifices deserve to be recognized. This session we plan to build on our legacy as a national leader in workers compensation coverage with respect to firefighters. We are very proud to introduce changes to The Workers Compensation Act which will expand the list of presumptive diseases for fire- fighters and extend this coverage to include volunteer and part-time firefighters.

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1749 To conclude, Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank all of Manitoba's emergency personnel and volun- teers who work selflessly to protect Manitobans in a professional and well-organized manner. Thank you. Morden Community Activities Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): This was a busy weekend for the town of Morden. On Saturday the Free Press highlighted the town of Morden. Destination Manitoba dinosaur museum is just one of the hidden treasures.

We continue to see that while people tend to think that Drumheller, Alberta, is a place that explores dinosaurs, Manitoba has its own museum, the Canadian Fossil Discovery Centre in Morden. It features the largest collection of marine reptile fossils in Canada. The centre has close to 600 speci- mens catalogued in its collection. I would ask the Doer government to consider the request the town of Morden has made to help highlight this museum. At the complex that is home to the museum, Irene and I had the opportunity to attend the Catholic Women's League of Canada's 56th Diocesan Convention.

His Worship Mayor John Wiens and I were able to bring greetings. I want to thank Denise Aune, president of St. John the Evangelist for hosting a wonderful evening. On Sunday I had the privilege of bringing greetings and officially opening the Super Cities Walk in Morden raising mone y for those afflicted with MS. I want to thank all the volunteers, espe- cially event co-ordinators, Deb Peterson and Cheryl Fedorchuk. Their hard work result ed in the breaking of two previously held records. The number of walkers increased by 100, from 250 to 350. The monies raised increased by $1,000, from $43,000 to $44,000.

Because I had another engagement I did a quick run, changed, and attended the Morden Festival of the Arts Hi-Lites concert. This was the culmination of a group of winners who have participated in the speech, arts, vocal and instrumental festival. Congratulations to Ainsley Schroeder who was the recipient of the Loreena McKennitt Award. She displayed her talent by playing Hoe-down composer, Aaron Copeland. She truly was a worthy recipient of this trophy. * (14:30) I was given the opportunity to congratulate all the winners and to thank the many volunteers for their hard work.

Thank you to President Sharon Wiens, Erika Dyck and the volunteers of the Morden Festival of the Arts. Keep up the good work. Morden is a great community to live, work and raise a family. Thank you to the many volunteers who continue to make Morden a vibrant community. Battle of the Media Stars Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise today to inform my colleagues about an event that I attended on Tuesday, April 19, 2005. Mr. Speaker, last week was Education Week.

As part of last week's events, I had the pleasure of representing the Department of Education, Citizen- ship and Youth at the Battle of the Media Stars at Winnipeg Technical College. This worthwhile event was introduced by Winnipeg Technical College to the Department of Education in 1999 as an initiative to promote technical vocational education and Education Week in Manitoba. This year, eight media teams as well as a team representing the Department of Education, Citizen- ship and Youth participated in a number of relay race events.

Technical events included hair rolling, pro- gramming, traffic light signals, technical drawing and properly lining pillows with pillow covers. Our team came in second place, losing only by six seconds to CKY TV. Mr. Speaker, Winnipeg Technical College plays a key role developing the technical vocational skills of Manitobans. Programs at Winnipeg Technical College's two campuses include auto mechanics, a health care aide program, culinary arts, hairstyling, industrial welding, production art and drafting, business administration, and many others.

I am proud to say that my son Steven, who turns 19 years old today, is a student at Winnipeg Technical College and appreciates the many dedicated teachers who are helping him to succeed. Mr. Speaker, everyone's life has been touched by a teacher. I commend all of Manitoba's teachers for

1750 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 being good role models for our youth. I also want to congratulate my fellow relay members, the MLA for Fort Garry (Ms. Irvin-R oss), the MLA for Minto (Mr. Swan) and the Minister of Education, Citizen- ship and Youth (Mr. Bjornson) for a job well done. Lastly, I want to wish all students at Manitoba's technical vocational schools and colleges continued success. Thank you. Krahn's Audio Video Ltd. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, as a small business owner, it pains me to see small business struggling to survive in Manitoba.

Not only are they struggling, but they are being forced to close their doors with the invasion of big box stores into the marketplace. We are losing quality service and product with every small locally owned business that closes. One such family business is Krahn's Audio Video that will be closing after 42 years of service to the Winnipeg and North Kildonan community. Jake Krahn was a true entrepreneur and started his business from the basement of his family home in North Kildonan. With hard work and help from his sons, Carl and Rob Krahn, they built and expanded their business.

I am truly saddened to lose this valuable member of the business community, and I thank the Krahn family on behalf of the Progressive Conservative caucus for their many years of superior service. I would also like to wish the Krahn family the best of luck in all their future endeavours. The Krahn family is not alone, Mr. Speaker. Other independent family-owned businesses have closed, not being able to keep up in the price wars of the conglomerate stores. I am not against a free market or progress, but I am an advocate for a balanced, sustainable economy that can provide quality service to all Manitobans.

Our business community deserves a level playing field. This government needs to support locally owned and operated businesses and not drown them in red tape and taxes. On a personal note, I have over the years been a patron of Krahn's and it truly saddens me because I know the kind of support they gave to local organizations. You always saw their ads in all the local, whether it was schools, whether it was com- munity events, whether it was with the church organizations. Mr. Speaker, I do not ever remember seeing an advertisement for Wal-Mart or any of the other big box stores.

It is a real loss for North Kildonan, and we certainly feel bad that Krahn's is no longer in business in North Kildonan. Music Education Programs Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, April is Music Appreciation Month, and the schools across the province are celebrating. Today I rise to give recognition to the wonderful music programs of schools in my constituency of Radisson. The school music programs make a valuable contribution to our society. They help the students build confidence and learn to develop their talents in educational settings and still have fun.

Our govern- ment appreciates the importance music programs play in Manitoba schools. That is why we are providing 23 schools with the special grants to enhance their music programs. The students from these schools are participating in a range of activities, including public performance and learning new instruments. In my constituency of Radisson, there are many schools participating in thriving music programs. The students in Radisson take

part in everything from bands and choirs to musical theatre. During April, in recognition of Music Appreciation Month, students from all over the province have been performing on the grand staircase at the front of the Legislative Building. I am proud to inform the House that two schools located in Radisson are among those who have performed. On April 6, a wonderful performance was given by the Grades 7 to 12 students vocal jazz choir from College Béliveau. On April 13, General Vanier Jazzers entertained the delighted crowd.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate all the students on their fine work, both of the performances were outstanding. Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank all those teachers, parents associations and councils as well as the school administrators who help make school music programs in Radisson area a success. I would like to commend the Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth (Mr. Bjornson) for enhancing an environment where the school music programs can flourish. Thank you.

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1751 ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you please call Supply, and it should just be noted that in the Chamber today, as scheduled, is Executive Council. Mr. Speaker: As scheduled, in the Chamber will be Executive Council. The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As has been previously agreed, questions for this department will follow in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister responsible for Healthy Living): Mr. Chair, at the close on Thursday, the member from Turtle Mountain had some questions for me about organizational struc- ture. I did indicate to him that I would get back to him, and I just would like to take a moment or so to do that.

I wanted to indicate that on page 9 of the Estimates book, where there is a very fetching organizational chart, we find in the assistant deputy minister's

section Healthy Living and Health Programs as listed. I would certainly extend my understanding to the member opposite when looking at this particular chart and understanding that certain responsibilities like, for example, the Selkirk Mental Health Centre that was referenced in his question, might indeed fall under Healthy Living specifically, but, just as a point of clarification, we have Healthy Living and Health Programs listed as such. While, indeed, the assistant deputy minister with whom I work most closely is Marcia Thomson, certainly Ms. Thomson reports to both the Minister of Health (Mr.

Sale) and the Minister of Healthy Living. As such, when we go back and talk about what I said on Thursday regarding my responsibilities entailing prevention and promotion and the Minister of Health's responsibilities, of course, predominantly addressing issues of care, certainly the Selkirk Mental Health Centre and some other things refer- enced under here would fall in that category under health programs that which the assistant deputy minister would be reporting to Minister Sale.

So I would suggest that, if there are specific questions about administration or capital or anything, really, that you have about Selkirk Mental Health Centre and a few of the other issues here that deal with care that the Minister of Health is available to answer those questions for you at your will. I think that answers the question you were asking me on Thursday. Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): I guess we did have some further questions.

Specifically, in terms of page 85, when we talk a bout external agencies and the $5-million expenditure, we would like a breakdown of that expenditure, if it relates to differ- ent departments or how that would work or if you would care to comment on that. Ms. Oswald: Certainly, I can begin to assist you with an answer to that question by beginning to differentiate those kinds of programs that we fund or provide supportive funding for that would fall under health promotion and prevention. That would certainly be areas that would fall under my area.

I can also assist in providing you with information concerning care and treatment-kind of agencies.

So, as an example, organizations that were involved in funding that would fall under my responsibility would include organizations such as the Anxiety Disorder Association, CMHA Manitoba, CMHA Central, Manitoba Schizophrenia Society, Mood Disorders Associat ion, CMHA Swan Valley, CMHA Thompson, Mental Health Education Resource Centre, Obsessive Compulsive Centre, Farm and Rural Stress Line, Eating Disorders Association Manitoba, Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, although there is a spit area of respon- sibility in this regard as, of course, the Addictions

1752 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 Foundation certainly does fall under their continuum of care. There are many programs that AFM works on better preventative in nature and, indeed, there are others that are very specifically orientated to care. I would certainly say that preventative end falls under my responsibility, and the Alzheimer Society of Manitoba. Others that would fall under Minister Sale's area would include such things as Addictions Recovery Incorporated, Esther House Incorporated, Tamarack Rehab.

Incorporated, the Native Addiction Council, Salvation Army, the Behavioural Foundation, The Laurel Centre, Independent Living Resource Centre, Independent Interpreter Re ferral Service, so that would give you a basic idea of how those particular organizations are split between us, but are indeed, funded by us. Mr. Chairperson: Interjection. Please, when you refer to Cabinet ministers, refer to their portfolio, not their name. Thank you. Mr. Cullen: Mr.

Chairman, I just wondered, if we could get a list of the various respective breakdowns of those groups so we could kind of get it correct in our own minds who is responsible for what depart- ment. Would that be possible? Ms. Oswald: Yes, we can provide you with a list of organizations to help guide the discussion. Mr. Cullen: I guess the next question would be in terms of page 105 in the Healthy Populations Expenditures here. There appears to be a significant increase in Supplies and Services. Could you give me some idea of what we are looking at here in this specific area? Ms. Oswald: Mr.

Chair, the particular line that you are referencing here does make reference to an increase in supports for ABA or autism pro- gramming. Mr. Cullen: Could we get a breakdown of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba in terms of their funding? I not know if there is a separate line in the Estimates or not, but if you could supply us a breakdown of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, all separate. * (14:50) Ms. Oswald: Yes, indeed. As indicated by my colleague, I believe it is page 125, you will find it as a separate

section listed in the Estimates booklet. I beg your pardon, that is page 123. Of course, knowing you as I do, you will want to do the full reading, which begins on page 119. Mr. Cullen: Yes, I will certainly take that under advisement. A few questions in regard to some of the programs that the Minister of Healthy Living has undertaken, one in regard to smoking and how our act is being enforced in the province of Manitoba. I do realize we do want to protect all Manitobans throughout the province of Manitoba. Unfortunately, it seems that we do have a two-tier system of enforcement right now.

I would just like the minister's views in terms of protecting Manitobans who work in First Nations communities, if we see the legislation being enforced in that area, as well, into the future. Ms. Oswald: I thank the member for the question. First and foremost, of course, I would like to acknowledge that we in Manitoba are very proud of the progress that we have made on smoking cessation initiatives. I need not spend much time speaking to the member about how important this is to Manitobans, in particular parents and children.

We heard this refrain, and an important one it is, time and time again as we travelled together with out colleagues on our Healthy Kids task force, that whatever we can be doing in Manitoba to mitigate the negative effects of tobacco, we should in fact be doing. Further, the member will recall that when the all- party task force on tobacco cessation toured the province, they did hear loud and clear from Manitobans that the ban on smoking exists to protect workers and to protect Manitobans against the undoubted negative effects of second-hand smoke.

Certainly, as an all-party entity, the group did agree that this legislation should go forward. I believe the member was in the House the day that the member from his own party, the member from Carman, rose and gave an impassioned speech about the genesis of his idea about the smoking ban and his own personal odyssey with smoking and seeing the negative effects of his own smoking on his grandchildren. I would say with conviction that I have not seen a speech in our Legislature since my

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1753 election that moved me as much as that one did. I was very proud to be part of the all-party decision to have our smoking ban in the province. Indeed, we are leaders in Canada. New Brunswick may have been on our heels, but we are leaders in Canada. Certainly, though, part of that document did say that the enforcement of our smoking ban would exist in areas where we have clear jurisdiction, and parties agreed on that.

Indeed, we have seen other juris- dictions, Saskatchewan and New Brunswick, that have chosen other courses of action, to be facing legal quagmires, as we speak, dealing with the jurisdictional issue and ba nd resolutions that are causing, you know, no end of trouble. We, of course, care about the health of all Manitobans. In doing so, we wanted to ensure that our legislation came through as expediently as possible, and we did not want to get bogged down in a legal battle over jurisdiction.

It is not only Aboriginal communities, of course; it is places like the airport and military environments that are federal jurisdiction where the ban is not being enforced. Having said all of that, certainly, we have also seen members of our Aboriginal community who have been ahead of us on this issue, jurisdictions where smoking bans were in place long before the all-party task force ever went out. We look to those communities to continue to be leaders.

We look to support those communities to do whatever they can to mitigate the negative effects of second-hand smoke, and we hope in the days ahead that we can be entirely a smoke-free province. Mr. Cullen: Thank you for your response. I guess, further to the smoking issue, there have been some of the RHAs considering policies in regard to how they deal with home care. I am just wondering if we are going to be moving ahead with some of those policies and the government's role in that.

As well, are we going to be moving ahead in terms of enforcing the regulations to, for lack of a better term, hide cigarette and smoking material in retail stores? Will we be enforcing that in the near future? Ms. Oswald: Certainly, the member is likely referring to an

article that we read in the paper recently about the WRHA considering a policy regarding banning smoking for those people that are receiving home care. It is my understanding, in doing a little bit of investigating on this, that this is a policy that is under consideration by the WRHA based on a Calgary model.

Indeed, while the WRHA works through the process of deciding whether or not to follow through with this particular process, one of the things that I think is really important to understand is, and I know the member understands it, the relationship that people who are in need of home care have with their home care workers. These are not cold, callous relationships. They are very intimate ones, and it would be our hope that, through education and awareness, which has always been our approach on this issue, we would be able to encourage smokers who receive home care to follow a model of the Calgary idea.

That is to stop smoking prior to the arrival of their worker and to not smoke while their worker was in the home. The Calgary model, howeve r, has at its forefront the care of patients and certainly no receivers of home care would be put in a situation where they would not receive the care. The safety of the patient is number one and that truly does exist in the Calgary model as well. We also know that the situation right now within the WRHA and any RHA where home care is being delivered is one that is based on care and compassion.

Certainly, a home care worker that might feel, in particular, the adverse effects of second-hand smoke, asthmatics and so forth, are already being cared for and reassigned and looked after as any employer, indeed, would wish to look after their workers. So we know that the WRHA and others already have steps in place to ensure the safety of their workers. At this time, we are not considering the expansion of our legislation in that regard. We are really focussing our efforts on education and awareness for the recipients of home care. You did also ask me a question about display. Did you want me to wait?

An Honourable Member: Go ahead. Ms. Oswald: Okay. Further on the display provisions part of the act, on the heels of the Supreme Court decision involving Saskatchewan, which might I add was not unlike an episode of Law and Order, it was quite fascinating that in the Saskatchewan situation th e judge listened to the tobacco industry give their side of the story, if you

1754 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 will, and did not even bother to hear from the medical association that was making their case. The decision was made without any testimony from them to, indeed, say that the display ban in the Saskatchewan law was, in fact, constitutional, which opened the door for us to avoid a Supreme Court battle and to push ahead with our legislation.

So we are very happy about that. * (15:00) Our protocol all along was that we would involve retailers in the discussion of the regulations, how to make the most seamless transition from the power wall to not displaying cigarettes in a place where children would frequent. I do not have to explain to the member, I am sure he has seen this, but to see it in photograph form is the most jarring, which is what I saw, and, that is, there are places within our province now where candy for children and toys for children sit right next to a tobacco display on a counter in some retailer's store.

Indeed, tobacco companies pay handsome sums to have these things happen, and our philosophy, of course, would be that we just do not want tobacco to be promoted for young people. So we will press ahead with the display provisions upon the advice of retailers. They met. It was a very harmonious process. Imagine having a small retailer that does make a lot of money from selling cigarettes in the same room as an ardent anti-smoking advocate, and in fact, they came to agre ement. They did not even need as many meetings as were originally scheduled.

We have accepted all of their recommendations, and it is our plan to push forth with the enforcement of that on August 15. Mr. Cullen: Mr. Chair, in terms of a diabetes and Chronic Disease Prevention Initiative, I know there have been a number of announcements made over the last little while. I am just wondering if the minister could for us maybe table this information, in the essence of time, just in terms of which strategies we have in place in terms of there is, I understand, a regional diabetes program. There are other different programs here.

We talk about resource centres, and Western Health Information Collaborative, Chronic Disease Management Initiative. There is monitoring and surveillance, all those initiatives, I am just wondering where they would be found in the budget, how much money is going to be allocated to those programs. I just wondered if there was a nice, neat, concise package you could provide for us to put all of those chronic diseases in context for us so we know where the government is headed on those chronic diseases. Ms. Oswald: Thank you very much for the question about CDPI.

You must be reading my mind when it comes to having nice, neat, tidy sheets that explain all of these things. It is the way I like to operate. Unfortunately, the CDPI initiative, as such, is not quite that tight in that it would fit all on one paper. Certainly, we will be forging ahead with initiatives that are directly related to the Chronic Disease Prevention Initiative, but there is also money that is embedded within RHAs.

The whole notion of chronic disease prevention is one that is about interconnectedness of symptoms and of behaviours that, within the context of Healthy Living, we are going to do everything we can to try to adapt. I certainly can offer the member the best that I can to provide an outline about what is diabetes- focussed, what is renal, what we are going to be doing to stem the tide of chronic disease for young people versus people that are on the other end of the continuum. I can do my best to do that. It would be difficult, I think, to promise today an absolute down- to-the-penny indication of that.

What I would say in

summary though about the Chronic Disease Prevention Initiative is that it is our belief that funding and supporting this kind of a plan that is directly connected an d really derivative of the really important contributions that the organizations that comprise the Alliance for Chronic Disease Prevention have come up with, with an under- standing that if you want to make profound and meaningful change for people in small communities, in larger areas, it has to be done at the grass roots level.

With that in mind, the philosophy to allow funds and to provide support for small groups and larger groups that can work together with the very specific needs of different communities to try to transform behaviour, no small task, might I add, is really going to be our focus. That is another reason why it may not necessarily be a tight budget line in that what is going to be a really great program in MacGregor might not necessarily be the program that is needed

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1755 in Gods River and might not be the program that is needed in Wabowden. So, through our funding to the CDPI, in conjunction with communities and con- sultation with communities, different communities will have programs that look different, but indeed, after an assessment of their community, will address their very specific needs. So, to summarize, I certainly will do my best to provide what we can about our plans to develop CDPI, what is already occurring under CDPI, so the member can have a better sense of how these monies are being invested. Mr.

Cullen: Just to follow up on the statement, I think we would be interested in seeing just how that money may flow, whether it is through the provincial jurisdiction or through the RHA, so if you could kind of provide a bit of a breakdown as to how that money will be allocated so we can get a concept of how those programs might develop. A few other inter- esting programs I think that are on the line here in terms of mental health, you have an Education Resource Centre. We would like a bit of an idea of the budget for that, and again, if you could just provide that for us some time in the future.

Another issue that is fairly important to Manitobans is, I think it is the provincial Committee for Suicide Prevention. If you could provide us some direction as to who is on that committee and again, maybe some specifics where that committee is headed, and again, some budget information for us. Another item that I think is very important going forward is the provincial injury prevention strategy. Again, if you could give us kind of a background explanation on that, and again, the funding format for that and how you perceive that rolling out so that we can follow it from our end as well.

I think those are very important initiatives for Manitoba, but at the same time we would like to get a bit of a handle on where we are headed. Another program that has just been put forward by the ministry is the Positive Parenting Program. I know the funding is about $1.4 million on that. Again, we would like a bit of an understanding of how that program might roll out and if it has been found within the expense document that we have before us or whether that is going to rolled out through the RHAs, or just how that might work, if you would comment on that specific program for us. Ms.

Oswald: I thank the member for that question. Certainly, some details about Triple P, which we really believe is going to be a program that is going to do much to help parents in Manitoba. Of course, I take a particular interest in this even more than before. The beauty of the Triple P program is it is one that is a universal program, not a targeted one.

I would say to the member, however, that the particular organizational funding for Triple P and many details about its origins and what it is about do fall within the context of Healthy Child Manitoba, and as such, possibly might be a question that would be, if I may be so bold, better directed under our Healthy Child discussions where certainly I will have access to Healthy Child staff that may be able to assist me if you should ask me a specific question about Triple P that I do not know. Mr.

Cullen: Again, if we could get a commitment from the Minister of Healthy Living to supply us with some of the documentation as requested, we would certainly appreciate that. Another important question is in terms of the province having a plan in place in case of a major disease outbreak. I guess I go back to the SARS potential we had down east. How does that sort of a situation roll out, and who is going to be responsible within the two departments? * (15:10) Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): That falls under my area of responsibility in terms of public health readiness.

The Government of Canada, I think, learned out of the SARS epidemic that we were not ready for a major health epidemic outbreak. So I think that all of us actually agreed that was the case. I think that is why they have moved at the federal level to have the new emphasis on public health, which has resulted in six centres across Canada, one of which is here, the infectious diseases one.

We, at our level, are responsible for the pan- demic planning process so that if there is an outbreak of something that is a very serious kind of flu, then we will have a provincial readiness strategy that deals with who gets, if there is a vaccine ready in time. Probably given the timing of vaccine preparation, it probably will not be in sufficient quantities to vaccinate everybody as it takes about six months from the time you identify a strain to getting a tested, safe vaccine available. It is a real race against time.

1756 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 So the questions of who will get treatment, what will you do with your health care workers in terms of front-line workers that you need to have as healthy as you can. Are they going to be the ones who get treated first? What about fire and police? You can assume in a really serious pandemic that probably half of the people sitting around this table right now will not be here. They will be sick. Hopefully, they will get better, but they will be sick.

So you have got to worry about food supplies, water, public safety, all of the things that make a society operate. So pandemic planning is not just the Health Department. It is Emergency Measures, it is Education, it is Justice. It is a very broad process, and it is a rolling plan because the feds are coming along with some changes in terms of their responsibility. Just to give you one example of an area that one of my staff used as an example when we were talking about the confusion when SARS hit, who is responsible for airports? Is the federal government responsible for airports?

The problem is the federal government does not have any staff in most provinces that have the capacity to actually do anything useful at an airport. So we have had to sort out those kinds of who is responsible for what issues, because you do not have time to have a task group sit down and study it. You have got to have it worked out so that when it happens you know what you are going to do, bang, bang, bang. That falls under our responsibility in Health. Mr. Cullen: Just to, maybe, follow up on the minister's comments there.

I know the City of Winnipeg is looking at different control strategies for the mosquito populations this spring and this summer and, of course, our incidence of mosquito problems is quite often a direct correlation with our weather conditions. We are not quite sure what may happen in that regard, but given that we may be trying new ground here in terms of mosquito treatment, we may be opening ourselves out to a West Nile challenge. I am just wondering if our de partment is ready for any circumstances or challenges that may lie ahead, especially in the city of Winnipeg and around the city of Winnipeg. Mr.

Sale: First of all, in the city of Winnipeg, we contract with the City to provide the larviciding and adulticiding, when it is called for, services. We pay them a contract fee, because they know where all the reservoirs are in terms of the ditches and the low- lying areas. SARS is a mysterious illness, and many people in Manitoba will have ha d SARS exposure. SARS– not SARS, I am sorry. West Nile. We are not talking about SARS. Please Hansard, correct my last references to West Nile. West Nile is a difficult disease because you can have antibodies and not ever know that you had the disease.

So you can be actually immune, but you did not have any symptoms when you had the disease, or at least if you did they were so mild you did not think anything of them. So it is a very small proportion of people that respond badly to the West Nile virus. I do not think that scientists are quite clear yet what the level of immunity is in the bird population, whether birds are still going to be dying in large numbers if West Nile is spread around the crows and the corvine family, blue jays, crows, grey jays that are all the same family, ravens.

We do not know because we have not done any wide-scale–at least in Canada I am not aware of any wide-scale epidemiological assessment to know how many people in the general population now have immunity, because if the general population builds up a reservoir of immunity against this particular virus, then it will not cause a big problem in the future. But we simply now, I think, have to do what we have been doing, which is monitor the numbers of cases and the severity of cases. The West Nile strategy was developed about four years ago by our government, in collaboration with other governments.

I think we have been pretty successful at keeping the incidence of severe cases pretty low by com- parison with some jurisdictions. Perhaps we have just been lucky. It is one of those new diseases that nobody wants to say, you know, we know exactly how it works or what is going to happen as it becomes a more generally spread virus in the overall population. I just think we do not quite know yet. Mr. Cullen: Just a last, maybe, question for the Minister of Healthy of Living.

We talked a little bit about the smoking and the cessation programs, and you talked about some numbers in terms of the smoking being on the decrease. I wondered if you could provide us that information at some point in time. As well, maybe in correlation to that, it may be of interest for us to find out what kind of money is generated in revenue from the sale of tobacco in

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1757 Manitoba in the last few years and the impacts that that has. If I could get a commitment from you to provide some of that information that we requested here in the previous conversation, and I am sure we would have a chance in Estimates down the road, in terms of Healthy Child, to bring some of those other issues forward. Mr. Chairperson: The member for Healthy Living, or the Minister for Healthy Living. Ms. Oswald: I am a member of the department, too, in spirit, Mr. Chair.

Certainly, we will work hard to provide the member with information about our smoking suc- cesses and our smoking challenges. I know that we have some very good data, broadly, on how smoking is on the decrease in our province. We are proud of that. We are going to keep working, however, to make sure it continues in that direction. We are also very pleased with results that we are seeing, particularly with our targeted population; that being youth. I still think 20 percent is way too high.

I think that one very good goal that we could have would come from my predecessor in this role, who said, when we handed over offices, and I inquired as to the very large box of unsightly ashtrays in the corner of his office that had been delivered by a smoker that was not happy with the ban, he suggested that, perhaps, we bury them somewhere on the grounds of the Leg in some time capsule form, and in 20 years, or maybe 10 years, will bring a Grade 5 class out and dig them up and pray that they have no idea what they are.

I think that is a much better goal than any sort of statistical analysis that one might have. Indeed, the request that you have about revenue versus cost invested in what we are doing for smoking cessation and, indeed, treatment of smoking-related disease, we will do our best to provide that. While I am on the subject, the jackrabbit staff here have provided a breakdown for you, that I can table right now, of issues concerning mental health, wellness and programming, that I am happy to table. Certainly, the provincial network for suicide prevention, as the member referenced earlier, does not have a budget per se.

It is a committee, an organization, to do planning and surveillance of best practice and how we might move forward. So one would not find it listed on here. But if the member is interested in the progress of that particular network, I would be happy to provide him, at a later date, with information about the work of that very important group. The member also referenced the provincial injury prevention strategy.

That would be another area that is not listed on this sheet, which is specifically mental health issues, but I would be happy to provide the member, at a later date, with an overview of what has happened with the strategy, what is going on in the department, and, perhaps, costs associated with that. But I will table these now. * (15:20) Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Chair, I am wondering if the minister would agree to, and I appreciate that he may not have all of this information with him today, but if he will agree to provide us with a list of the board of directors for each RHA, including whether or not they live within the catchment area of the RHA. Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairman, I just have two copies. I do not know where the third copy has gone, but I will give the member one and the clerk one. These are the lists, including the new appointments for this year. Oh, there is the third copy, okay. Mrs.

Stefanson: I am wondering also if the minister could provide me with the number of midwives in each RHA. Mr. Sale : Yes, we can. I do not think we have got that information here today, so, yes, we can give you that information. Mrs. Stefanson: I am just wondering if the minister could also provide us with the capital plans for this year by each RHA. Mr. Sale: I believe, Mr. Chairperson, that all of the annual plans for our regional health authorities are public documents and I should tell the member the stack of them is about a foot high, and most of them, as far as I know, are on the Web.

You could scroll through them and see if ther e are any issues that are of interest to you, but they are required to have an

1758 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 annual plan which they have to submit. I think June is the deadline for submission, and so the most recent ones would be for last year, this period we are now ending, I guess. Oh, I am sorry, staff is correcting me there. They would have submitted last June for '05-06 and so those plans, I think there are 12 regional health authorities at this point, they would all be on the Web, 12 counting CancerCare Manitoba. I could bring the member samples if what she is looking for is what is this document like.

I could bring her a sample of a plan, but I am just a little reluctant to kill that many. If the member is able to take a look on the Web and see what she could find there for the annual plans, I think she would find they are all public documents, publicly approved and publicly discussed, actually, at the annual meetings. Mr. Cullen: Last Thursday we had a discussion. I believe the Minister of Hea lth had a list of capital projects, and at that point in time, the minister was going to provide us a list of the capital projects underway. I am just wondering if that information is still available.

I believe that is what the member from Tuxedo is referring to. An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairman, this list is all of the major capital projects that are either to be completed this year, well for the next four years, this year and out to '08-09. As the member would probably immediately realize, if it is a complex project like a new, hundred- bed nursing home on a piece of land that is not currently serviced, as is the case in Neepawa, it is a longer-life project to get it opened and operating

whereas smaller projects that, you know, would be for example the community health services building in Dauphin is a relatively straightforward, low-tech building and could be done much more quickly, but these are the major projects currently underway. Mr. Cullen: The other discussion we had Thursday was in regard to past capital projects. An Honourable Member: I did not hear the first part of your question. Mr. Cullen: Last Thursday we had a discussion about past capital projects, and I believe we had a bit of a five-year synopsis of what went on.

Would you be able to put forward a list of the capital projects over the last year or two that have been completed? Mr. Sale: Yes, Mr. Chairman, maybe the member could tell me, you want two years, what do you want? Mr. Cullen: I would like specifically last year and I guess the year previous to that. It does not have to be today. I just wonder if we could get that information put forward to us. I would like a breakdown, a specific breakdown by region and by area. I want to get a feel for where our capital was invested in terms of bricks and mortar and major capital and equipment. Mr.

Sale: Just so the member understands, this is not a simple question because capital projects very often span more than one year. If he means the projects that were completed during those two years, numbers of them will have started a year or even two years, or in the case of a major project, maybe even five years previously with their planning. So just so we know for sure what it is the member is asking for, this list I have given today is the projects that will be completed this year assuming, you know, the good Lord willing and the creek does not rise, and for the next four years.

Is that the same kind of list that you want for the last two years? Projects that were actually completed because they will have started considerably before. Mr. Cullen: Yes that is in fact the list we would like to have of the projects completed over the last two years. * (15:30) Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairman, the member asked earlier about the tax revenue from the smoking tax. In '04- 05 the forecast was $203 million and '05-06 is about the same, given that we have lower amounts of smokers, but they are paying a lot for their cigarettes.

We spend quite a bit more than that on chronic obstructive lung disease, lung cancer, and all of the diseases of smoking. This is not a money maker for us. The problem is there will be a lag time, but we will get rid of smokes and have no revenue, but will continue to have the expenditures related to the disease that is already in progress. That is still, in my view, and I think our government's view, a better

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1759 outcome than going along and making money on cigarettes. I think we would be delighted the day that we do not make any more money on cigarettes. Mrs. Stefanson: I am wondering if the minister–I know he mentioned last week when we were in discussions with respect to administration costs in the RHAs, he had mentioned that he was going to ensure that the WRHA includes in its audited financial statements for this year the administration costs.

I am just wondering if the minister will agree also that all other RHAs in Manitoba will in fact include those in their audited financial statements for this year. Mr. Sale: I think basically all the others do, and I would expect that you can figure out administrative costs from any financial statement, but let me just say to the member that the Canadian Institute for Health Information, CIHI, has a standard definition of administrative costs.

They extract from all of the statements across the country the administrative costs according to their standard definition, and that is the number that we report, the CIHI number. So I expect that, first of all, it will be transparent, because I think that is appropriate, but I also would say to the member that CIHI has always extracted these numbers, and I have confidence that they are correct.

So, for example, in Brandon, the admin- istrative expenditures have increased 36 percent since 1999-2000, and that happens, and I am sure it is no more than a coincide nce, but it is almost exactly what their funding has increased by. So they have not trimmed their administrative expenditures as a percentage of their budget, but they have not grown as a percentage of their budget either, and they have not grown by 136 percent, which was a number that members of the opposition have used. That is a mathematical problem, I guess, of reporting.

If you say that the expenses today are 136 percent of what they were in 1999-2000, that would be correct, but what it would mean is that they have increased 36 percent, so it is a question of how you use the mathematics to prove your point or not prove your point. So I just want to be clear with the member that the increases have been pretty con- sistent across all of our regions. The one exception that I can recall from the table without seeing it in front of me again is that Assiniboine has actually gone down from 7 percent to 5 percent of administrative costs from 2001 to 2004, from 7.7 to 5.1.

So that is quite a remarkable record in Assiniboine's case. But if the member wants me to assure her that those numbers will be public, I can assure that I expect them to be, and I trust that the RHAs will understand the wisdom about being transparent about their admin costs. Mrs. Stefanson: I would appreciate the minister will in fact ensure that there is transparency and accountability when it comes to the financial statements and will ensure that those numbers are included in the audited financial statements. Is the minister committing to that today? Mr.

Sale: I think this will be the third time I have said yes. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, I think it is very important that we be clear on what in fact you are saying, so that is all I am trying to do. With respect to the Parkland Regional Health Authority, we have heard that they will be ending their lease, the adminis- tration office space in Dauphin, because the RHA is planning to build a facility for the office. Is that, in fact, the case? Mr. Sale: I do not know. I will find out if the member would like to know that. I am not aware of that. Mrs.

Stefanson: Okay, well, if the minister could get back to me then and let me know and confirm whether or not this is the plan for the RHA and what the cost of the project will be, when the project will be completed, if it is, in fact, the case if they are going to be moving from a leased office to building their own facility, and if, in fact, it will be included in the capital cost for this year. Will the minister agree to also get us the other information as well? Mr. Sale: We will do our best to find out. Mrs.

Stefanson: With respect to the WRHA, I wonder if the minister can indicate what the total savings are from the announced administration costs. Mr. Sale: Could you clarify, Mr. Chairman from the announced cuts of a week or two weeks ago? Is that what you are referring to? Approximately $2 million.

1760 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 I believe that the savings were just over $2 million, but there is a one-time severance cost in the order of 600,000. If the member needs more specific information, I could get her the actuals, but if memory serves, it was 2.025. We can verify that. Mrs.

Stefanson: Well, I guess I would need a breakdown of the amount of positions that will not be filled and the amount of, in fact, if there is voluntary unpaid leave, and then the number of actual layoffs that will go into this, as well as how much each hospital, so the other side of the equation that was announced, as well for each hospital, the administration cuts and layoffs and so on within the hospitals to save the administration costs that were announced, as well. Mr.

Sale: Well, as the member said, the reductions in positions were comprised of empty positions which did not have anybody in them at that point, so they were in the process of being filled, actual layoffs and early retirements, and a number of people moved from where they were to a different job in the system that was available to them. These were all very competent people, and so I think it is really important to recognize that in any situation like this there is a fair amount of pain for the people involved because they have been dedicated career health administrators.

I think that we need to be very sensitive about taking pleasure in anybody's loss of their job. So I hope the member will understand that I am not going to give her any names, and I am not going to give her any infor- mation that would identify people by virtue of the positions, because in some of these positions, there only was one person. So I will not be able to supply her with any information that would allow, even accidentally, the identification of individual people. I believe that the WRHA had a fairly explicit press release, which laid out the numbers of staff and the positions and the dollars.

There were 26 positions impacted, 10 were vacant, 5 were reallocated to other duties, and 11 were actually laid off. So, if the member needs more information than that, on the WRHA side, within reason I will try to get it, but I am not going to give her any information that could identify, even accidentally, individuals. On the hospital side, I am not aware that the hospitals have actually received any specific direction as yet in terms of how they are going to go about this. It may have gone out, but if it has, I am not aware that it has gone out.

I do not get involved in the day-to-day management of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. So the targets that are assigned by senior managers in the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority to each hospital would be developed by the administration, and certainly nothing came out of my office any more than any of these layoffs came out of my office.

We gave a target and a direction and the WRHA is doing its best, I think very accountably, to meet that target, but I cannot tell the member what the hospitals are going to be requested to do, because I do not know, and I do not know whether that direction has even gone out yet. * (15:40) Mrs. Stefanson: Well, I guess, just a brief comment on that. First of all, I am not expecting names, nor did I ask for specific names of work positions actually in fact, but there are a number of vacant positions that I understand they are not planning to, and I am wondering how it would actually be saved as a result of that.

Is that included in the $3.5 million that they are looking at coming from WRHA side of saving on the administration costs? But I will go on to say that, certainly, if there is a $7 million, you know, it was announced that they are planning to save $7 million in administration costs, 3.5 from the WRHA, which is where I would like the breakdown, how many of those are coming from jobs that will just be deleted and how many of those will actually be, I understand, you know, 11 of them, but what are the dollar figures associated with the positions that will just not be filled and the dollar figures associated with?

I am looking at total dollars, not names of positions, not names of people, but the actual dollar positions, the breakdowns resulting from those layoffs. As well, looking on the hospital side, and I would hope if the minister is not aware of any direction that the hospitals have been given by the WRHA, I am wondering if he could undertake to speak to his staff over there and find out what direc- tion has been given. This has been an announcement already made of the $7 million, and presumably there is a plan in place. I would hope there is a plan in

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1761 place. If there is a plan in place, could the minister t han undertake to get this information. If he does not have it today and is not aware of it today, could he undertake to get us the information with respect to the $3.5 million savings and where that will come from in the hospitals? Mr. Sale: I thank the member for the question. The positions in the WRHA that were deleted, including the positions that were not currently filled, were all budgeted for, so that is all real money.

All of it will be, essentially, pulled back by our budgeting authority, in fact, we have already pulled it back. So the real dollars that have been saved by virtue of the 26 positions are all real dollars, including the positions that were funded but not filled, and we will save all of that, less the severance amounts. In terms of the hospitals, the hospitals have just been given notice through the announcement of WRHA that they will be expected to share in the burden.

But I think from a leadership point of view it was important for WRHA to show that it was taking seriously this challenge that we had set and that they were taking action first so that they were seen to be leading in this area. So I would expect that each hospital administrator will do what every administrator does when they find out that their budget is not quite as big as they had hoped it would be. They will plan to reduce costs accordingly. Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair They are going to be given direction that it is not to reduce service.

It is to be administrative savings or productivity savings, but I cannot give the member a date by which there would be a plan at each of the eight facilities. I can simply say that the plan that was developed by WRHA centrally was a very carefully thought through and, I think, difficult pro- cess. It is always difficult to reduce good people in an organization. I think that is probably the best I can give the member in terms of time, given what our Estimates process is all about. Mrs.

Stefanson: I am wondering if the minister can indicate, as I understand there was a savings, and it was reported that there was a savings, in the WRHA of about $1.5 million in administration costs last year. Can the minister, first of all, confirm that? Mr. Sale: No, I cannot. Last year, the WRHA was asked to reduce its administrative expenditures. They did so with a variety of non-salary reductions, and, I believe, by some vacancy management. I think that was also part of the plan.

So things like reducing travel, reducing staff development, reducing use of computer time, all the things that you do when you are trying to tighten up on any administrative budget. Given what WRHA has in terms of staff, they were able to do that without laying off any people last year is my understanding, much like we do in govern- ment, frankly. When you come towards the middle of the year and you have got a problem with expenditures, then you tighten up on everything you can. That is what they did last year. Madam Chairperson: It has been requested that we have a five-minute recess.

Is that the will of the committee? [Agreed] The committee recessed at 3:46 p.m. ________ The committee resumed at 3:51 p.m. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): A couple of questions for the minister. I guess back in March, there were a couple of articles in the paper that indicated that the bill of rights was being imple- mented by the government for nursing homes. Along with that, the

article also quoted that, under the new rules, residents have the right to choose recreational activities and the right to have access to an organized spiritual and religious care program. There had been provincial funding increased in the budget to help operators meet these new standards.

I have had some discussions with some personal care homes who have indicated very clearly that they have tried their very best to ensure that when reductions have had to be made, they are made at the administrative levels so they could preserve and ensure that the front-line care and support services were available, and that has always been their focus. I know that a lot of the personal care homes are running deficits. I am sure the minister is aware of that. There is significant concern that the funding that government is providing today is not adequate to meet the needs, and they are stretched to the limit.

I do know one area that many of the nursing homes in my communities and people that live in my

1762 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 communities support is Middlechurch Home. Many of the nursing homes out in North Kildonan are faith- based also, and spiritual care is very high on their priority list. I believe that the minister probably has received some petitions, and I have had several concerns raised with me by people on the auxiliary at Middlechurch Home, who in the past worked very hard to obtain the additional funds through fund- raising to support a spiritual care program. They have had to lay off that spiritual care person as of April of this year because of not enough resources. When they read the newspaper

article that indicated that more money was going to be available to their facilities to implement the bill of rights, one of which was a right to spiritual care, they were somewhat confused, beca use they have extreme concerns that there is less available, not more, that nursing homes are struggling. I wonder if the minis- ter might comment. I know there was some talk of $1.25 million to personal care homes in order to implement the new rules.

How would that be divided among personal care homes and how much actually would that mean per personal care home to deliver the kinds of services that the bill of rights is indicating residents are entitled to? Mr. Sale: The total amount that was being allocated this year is $1.5 million, and the member may know that over the past, about four or five years, we have been piloting these personal care home standards in a number of homes to see collaboration with personal care home operators to see how the standards, in practice, can be implemented.

In the main, what we found was that in the larger homes, particularly in the city, we are very in the main, we were very good. Their standards were high. They met most of the new care standards, which are quite, quite detailed, as the member probably knows. But the areas where there was the most challenge was in some of the rural areas. So that $1.5 million is allocated, $475,000 of it to Assiniboine, $339,000 to Central, $93,000 to North Eastman, $126,000 to South Eastman, $174,000 to Interlake, $233,000 to Parkland, and $58,000 to NOR-MAN. The main challenge in implementing these is in the rural areas.

So that is to give the RHAs staff dollars to work with the homes in their area to bring them up to snuff. Mrs. Mitchelson: Could the minister indicate to me what region Middlechurch Home falls into? Mr. Sale: I believe, although it is just outside the boundaries of the city, actually, it is administered through WRHA, through Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. By the way, just a question. Is that in your riding? I thought it was in Greg's riding. Okay, because you said earlier, "in your riding," and I was getting confused. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Just for clarification, I said that a lot of the personal care homes in my community specifically have a faith base, but I did indicate that Middlechurch Home. I have had several concerns because many of the volunteers that work at Middlechurch Home reside in my community and in northeast Winnipeg, and they have had a long-term, long-time commitment to Middlechurch.

So I guess, then, is the minister indicating to me that, of the money that has been provided in the province, the $1.5 million that he says is available, none of that additional money would be going to Middlechurch Home, then, in order to implement the bill of rights? Would I be correct in saying that? Mr. Sale: Yes, the member is correct. That is based on the four years or so th at we were involved in looking at these standards in collaboration with urban and rural nursing homes.

The conclusion was that the urban homes had a higher level of programs and staff supports, and thei r funding was more able to support the new standard s than some of the rural older and smaller homes. So that is the basis for that decision. I just would add that in Winnipeg, the member may, I do not know whether she knows or not, but in Winnipeg in the past before we formed government, nursing homes really were receiving their funding on a historical basis as opposed to on a formula basis.

So there were very large disparities between funding levels in the four biggest homes: Fred Douglas, Middlechurch, Holy Family, and I think the other one was Sharon. It was the other large home, although I may be wrong about that. I think it was Sharon. WRHA undertook to increase the funding to the homes that were more poorly funded and to hold, they did not reduce, but to hold the funding levels of some of the higher funded homes. That did cause some stress and strain, no t just with Middlechurch

April 25, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1763 but Holy Family was also impacted by that. Now, they have since worked through some changes that I am aware of with one of th e four.

I am not aware of changes they have worked through with Middle- church, but I am with one of the others, and, I think, come to a satisfactory ending on that. * (16:00) I cannot tell the member because I do not have the detailed information about the choices that Middlechurch made in terms of its staffing comple- ment, but my understanding is that they are funded now at the same level as other homes, such as Fred Douglas and Holy Family that are able to afford pastoral care, chaplaincy services.

So, perhaps, there is some work to be done there in terms of how they have chosen to spend the resources they have available. Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Chair, I guess the point they make and the point I would like to make to the minister is that there were false expectations reported when government talked about–it said 1.25 in the paper, but the minister says $1.5 million to support new rules that this government has brought in without additional resources. It is a bit of false information then that has been put forward.

If the government is trying to attempt, through an announcement, to indicate that there is money everywhere to implement a new bill of rights when, indeed, the minister has indicated clearly there was not money provided to all nursing homes to provide the additional support that they are expected to provide under the bill of rights. I will just leave it at that. I know the people from Middlechurch who have contacted me will be really interested in the minister's comments.

They certainly will be aware the issues they are having to deal with around being able to provide spiritual care at Middlechurch are not, indeed, receiving any ad ditional funding. I will leave it at that and just move on to another issue. I know the minister and some of his colleagues received a letter from the Autism Society of Manitoba, which the minister would probably be aware of, had some concerns about the inequity in funding across the board to children with autism. I do know, and I believe that when we were in government, the pilot project with the ABA program was started.

I think it has been successful in many instances with a small group of families that have had that kind of intensive intervention. It is my understanding now that there are going to be additional resources available for those same children as they move into the school system.

There are many other parents with autistic children that feel that, although they have not used or the services that are available through th e ABA program are not necessarily the choice the family has made, or maybe the right program even for th eir children with autism because all children are different, they have indicated that they believe they ar e being treated like second- class citizens. There is not a standard available if, in fact, Health and maybe the minister can confirm, is allocating an extra $15,000 per child that is moving into the school system.

Family Services, which the minister probably cannot speak for, but maybe, I know that on these kinds of programs, departments do work together to try to provide resources and supports. Family Services is allocating another $6,000 per child as they move in school age programming. The question becomes what about all of the other children that have autism that are not in the ABA program.

They believe that if these kinds of supports are available for a program parents have chosen, and it has probably worked very well in many instances for those children, should that kind of money not be available for all other children in an equitable society so that parents can choose the kinds of supports and the kinds of care that they would like for their children. There seems to be some inequity, and I know there are several recommendations the minister and his colleagues have seen from the letter that I have a copy of.

I wonder if the minister could just indicate whether he is prepared to move forward with any of the recommendations that have been made by the society, I believe it is the Autism Society of Manitoba. Has the minister looked at the recom- mendations, and is he prepared today to indicate they will move forward on any of those recommendations that have been set out in this letter? Mr. Sale: I do not know whether the member has any extra copies of that letter, but mine is back in my office. I do not remember the content as well as I

1764 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 25, 2005 might without it in front of me, but yes, I have read it and am aware of what they have said. As to the detail, I do not think I could pass a test today on that. Mrs. Mitchelson: I can share the letter here, but maybe I could just ask speci fically about a couple of recommendations. They have asked for the establish- ment of a working group with representatives from provincial departments that might be affected, to identify the needs of all children with autism and allocate funding resources fairly and equitably to meet those needs. That is one.

It would seem to me that a working group might be a good way to go, and it is certainly something that I would hope this minister would want all of the stakeholders and all of those that have special needs for their children involved in trying to find some sort of an equitable solution. I will just ask for the minister's comments on that. Mr. Sale: First of all, the member is quite right that this is a tripartite partnership. She knows Eleanor Chornoboy in the children's special needs services that has done a wonderful job over many years serving many administrations and working with special needs kids.

When I was Minister of Family Services, I was delighted, through Healthy Child and Family Services, to be able to make the ABA program a core-funded, ongoing, long-term program, and I am very proud of the fact that, although I have not been in Family Services for three years now, or two and a half, I guess, this must be the only program in Canada where there is no waiting list for ABA. We have capacity for 58, and currently there are 56 kids enrolled. So I think that is an outstanding achieve- ment on the part of St.

Amant, and the MFEAT parents and the University of Manitoba Faculty of Psychology, all the people involved in the program. That is a huge success story. The member knows, I am sure, I do not mean to be preaching to the converted, but the member knows that autism is not a di sease, it is a spectrum. There are a whole bunch of different disorders that are–they talk about an autism spectrum now, not about autism as a condition. Some little kids respond well to ABA and they progress remarkably. Some progress to the point where you would not know they had any disability at all, others not as far.

It is a very intensive demand on the family. It is not just intensive in terms of the therapist. It is intensive in terms of the demands on the family, and some families are not up to it. That is not a judgement

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-3-35
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 3rd hansardpdf 35.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	627b0c4157498ee9e5b9b4aed3788bf9d43091f5

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