Manitoba Hansard — 23 June 2003 (Sitting 01, 38th Legislature, 1st Session)

38-1-01

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIV No. 1 – 1:30 p.m., Monday, June 23, 2003

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY First Session–Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 23, 2003 The House met at 1:30 p.m. At 1:30 p.m., the Sergeant-at-Arms, carrying the Mace in the crook of his arm and followed by the clerks of the Legislative Assembly, entered the Chamber. The Sergeant-at- Arms returned to the main entrance of the Chamber and shouldered the Mace. The clerks took post on the west side of the Chamber, stood and awaited the arrival of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): I am pleased to advise the Assembly that I have received from the Chief Electoral Officer the lists of names of members elected to serve in the Thirty-Eighth Legislature, and I am tabling those lists. The Premier and the military and civil aides accompanied His Honour to the Chamber in the following order: The civil aide on the right; The military aide on the left; The Premier; The Lieutenant-Governor.

At the main entrance, the military and civil aides halted and turned inwards to allow the Lieutenant-Governor and the Premier to proceed through the north doors, where His Honour was met by the Mace. Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms (Mr. Blake Dunn): His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. The Lieutenant-Governor th en, preceded by the Mace carried shoulder high and followed on his left by the military aide and on his right by the civil aide, proceeded along the west side of the Chamber to the throne. The Premier proceeded along the east side and stood on the floor on the east side of the Chamber.

The military aide took up his position on the east side of the throne and the civil aide took up his position on the west side of the throne. The Lieutenant-Governor seated himself on the throne; the Sergeant-at-Arms made obeisance with the Mace and retired to the east side of the hamber. C Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am directed by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor to inform you that he will not declare the causes of calling this Legislature until a Speaker has been elected in ccordance with the law. a Madam Clerk: Please be seated.

Members of the Legislative Assembly, pursuant to the Lieutenant-Governor's direction and the rules of this Assembly, it is my duty to call upon you to elect a member to preside over your delibera- tions as Speaker. Would the Sergeant-at-Arms and the Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms please place the voting booths and the ballot box in position? Would the pages please distribute the list of candidates to all members' desks and place one in each voting booth? For your information before beginning the election, I will briefly outline the process to be followed as set out in the Rules of the House.

For each round of balloting, members will be asked to go to the blue carpets behind the third row of desks on their respective sides of the House, then file past the Speaker's Chair and down the steps to the head of the Clerk's table. At the table, each MLA will be asked to initial a list to verify that they have received a ballot. Please proceed to the nearest voting booth. In the voting booth, please print or write legibly the surname of the candidate you support on the ballot paper, place it in the ballot box at the end of the Clerk's table and please return to your place.

You can only vote for one candidate, so please do not list or rank all of the candidates. Only write the surname of one candidate. When all members wishing to vote have done so, the House will recess while the clerks withdraw to count the vote. A majority of votes cast is required to elect the Speaker. If both

2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 candidates receive the same number of votes, no name will be dropped from the next ballot. Immediately before the start of the second or any subsequent ballot, members who wish to with- draw will be given an opportunity to do so. When the count of each ballot is completed, a five-minute bell will ring to call the members to he Chamber. t * (13:40) The following members have declared their intention to stand for election to the office of Speaker. The candidates are, in alphabetic order, George Hickes and Conrad Santos.

In prepa- ration for the vote, the Sergeant-at-Arms will nspect and lock the ballot box. i The list of candidates is on each member's desk and in each of the two voting booths. I will now open the sealed ballots and proceed with the eginning of the voting procedure. b I will now ask those members who wish to cast their ballots to proceed to the blue carpet behind the third row of seating on your respec- tive sides of the House and then file past the Speaker's Chair and to the head of the clerk's table where each will receive a ballot.

Each MLA's name will be checked off the list once they have been given a ballot and each MLA will be asked to initial the list. Please then proceed to the voting booth on the side of the table nearest you. Please print or write legibly the surname of your candidate on the ballot paper, then proceed to the ballot box and place your ballot paper in he ballot box. t If there are any members who have not voted and who wish to do so, would you please ote now. v All members having voted, the House will recess to the call of the bells while the clerks at the table count the ballots.

The bells will ring for five minutes to recall members to the Chamber when the results of the first ballot are ready to be nnounced. Thank you very much. a The House recessed at 1:52 p.m. _________ After Recess The House resumed at 2:09 p.m. Madam Clerk: Honourable members, the Mem- ber for Point Douglas has received the majority of the ballots cast. Pursuant to the rules, I declare George Hickes, the honourable Member for Point Douglas, elected as Speaker of the Thirty- Eighth Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

The Premier and the Leader of the Opposition escorted the newly elected Speaker to the Chair and he was invested with the robes of office. The Mace was then placed on the table. * (14:10) Mr. Speaker: Honourable members of the Thirty-Eighth Legislative Assembly, I wish to thank the members for the high honour the House has conferred on me. I leave the floor of this House to take the Speaker's Chair.

I leave behind all political and partisan feelings and I intend to carry out the important duties of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly with impar- iality and to the best of my abilities. t [ Inuktitut spoken] What I said to you was thank you very much for your support and I will do the best job I can. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the clerks in the Clerk's Office and all the other offices that were involved in organizing the events today. I think we owe them a great round of thank you for a job well done. T he Speaker then took the Chair.

The Premier left the Chamber to meet His Honour in the reception room. The clerks took ost on the west side of the Chamber. p The Mace proceeded to the entrance of the House to meet His Honour, who re-entered the Chamber accompanied by the aides and the Premier, as on his first entry. The Speaker left the Chair and stood on the floor of the Chamber on the east side. The Mace made obeisance and retired to the east side of the Chamber. Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms: His Honour the ieutenant-Governor. L The Lieutenant-Governor, accompanied by his aides and by the Premier, entered and took his seat on the throne.

The clerks moved to the east

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3 side of the Chamber. The Speaker, who had moved to the east side of the floor before the Lieutenant-Governor entered the House, moved to the centre of the floor, doffing his hat. Mr. Speaker: Your Honour, the Legislative As- sembly has elected me as its Speaker. On behalf of the Assembly, it is my duty to claim all the Assembly's traditional rights and privileges, especially the privilege of freedom of speech in debate and access to your Honour when re- quired. I ask you to give the most favourable consideration to the Assembly's proceedings.

The Speaker then moved back to the east side of the House. Mr. Mackintosh: His Honour is confident that the Assembly's proceedings will be conducted with wisdom and prudence. In addition, His Honour grants the Assembly's claim to its tradi- tional rights and privileges. His Honour will now declare the causes of calling this Legislative Assembly. The Sergeant-at-Arms made obeisance with the Mace and retired to the side of the Chamber. SPEECH FROM THE THRONE Hon. Peter Liba (Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Manitoba): Mr.

Speaker and mem- bers of the Manitoba Legislature, I welcome you to the first session of the Thirty-Eighth Legis- lative Assembly of the Province of Manitoba. Je vous souhaite la bienvenue à la première session de la trente-huitième Législature de la Province du Manitoba. Translation I welcome you to the first session of the Thirty- Eighth Legislative Assembly of the Province of Manitoba. English Congratulations and good wishes are very much in order for all new members of this Assembly and for those who are returning to this House.

The people of our province have en- trusted you with heavy responsibilities at all times to advance the public interest and to provide leadership and vision in making deci- sions which will help shape the future of Mani- toba. Due recognition should also be given to all the candidates who allowed their names to stand in the general election. All have made the high- est possible commitment to public service. Your Government feels honoured to have been given a strong and clear mandate by the citizens of this province.

Your Government will honour that mandate by proceeding to implement the commitments they have made to the people of Manitoba: to continue improving our health care system, to provide hope for our young people through education and training oppor- tunities, to continue strengthening and diversify- ing our economy, to make our communities safer and more secure and to make Manitoba an even more affordable place to live. Some of the actions necessary to achieve these commitments were summarized in the last Speech from the Throne on November 27, 2002.

Those actions were debated and received the approval of members at that time. Members also debated and passed the 2003- 04 Budget, which was presented to the Assembly on April 22, 2003, shortly before the adjourn- ment of the last Legislature. With the agreement of all parties, the new Legislative Assembly will be asked to adopt the agenda for action presented in the most recent Speech from the Throne and the budgetary poli- cies that were approved two months ago. Review of the Estimates flowing from the 2003 Budget and consideration of new legislation will proceed when the House reconvenes in September.

Notre gouvernement est fier d'avoir reçu un mandat sans équivoque de toutes les régions du Manitoba. Il demeurera fidèle aux principes d'inclusion et d'équité qui devraient guider toutes es délibérations de l'Assemblée. l * (14:20) T ranslation Our Government is proud to have received a strong mandate from all parts of Manitoba and

4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 will endeavour to uphold the principles of inclu- sion and fairness which should guide all the deliberations of this Assembly. English In each region of our province new chal- lenges as well as new opportunities have arisen in recent months. In the North we are confronted with renewed concern over shipping volumes through the Port of Churchill.

At the same time, we stand on the brink of a major opportunity to develop untapped hydro resources through agreements with Manitoba First Nations and Aboriginal citizens and a clean energy partnership with the province of Ontario. In rural Manitoba, cattle farmers are feeling the impact from the single case of BSE found in Alberta which has resulted in a prolonged and potentially devastating halt to Canadian beef exports.

At their recent meeting in Kelowna, the western premiers were united in calling for a strong national response focussed on reopening the border as soon as possible and addressing the losses to producers. Exporters in all sectors of our economy are carefully monitoring the impacts of a rising Canadian dollar spurred by the spread in short- term interest rates between the U.S. and Canada.

Manitobans have enjoyed the benefits of a dynamic and resilient economy in recent years but now, more than ever, it is important that we build on our strategic partnerships and lay the foundations for strong growth into the future. To do so, it is critical that our provincial strategies are supported by federal leadership in such key areas as transportation, energy, agriculture and disease control. In the months ahead, members of this Assembly will be asked to stand together to defend Manitoba's in terests and to work for national policies that will benefit all our citizens.

I want to thank our guests, and in particular the families of our newly elected members, for joining us today for this first session of this new Legislature. Also, I wish to thank our Speaker and all members of the Legislature for the hard work hat lies ahead. t Je tiens à remercier nos invités, en particulier les familles des députés nouvellement élus, pour s'être joints à nous aujourd'hui à l'occasion de la première session de cette nouvelle Législature. Je désire également remercier le Président et les membres de l'Assemblée législative en prévision du dur labeur qui les attend.

Translation I want to thank our guests and in particular the families of our newly elected members for joining us today for the first session of this new Legislature. I also want to thank our Speaker and all members of the Legislature for the hard work that lies ahead. English As you proceed to carry out the respon- sibilities the people of Manitoba have entrusted to you, I trust that divine providence will guide your deliberations in the best interests of all our citizens. Thank you. "God Save the Queen" and "O Canada!" were sung. The Speaker proceeded to the throne after His Honour retired from the House.

The Sergeant-at-Arms approached the Speaker, made obeisance with the Mace, then placed the Mace on the table. Mr. Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame such laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will; that we may seek it with wisdom, know it with certainty and accom- plish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5 name and for the welfare of all our people. men. A Please be seated. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I ask, knowing that there is a great sense of ensuring that there is leave that is going to be accommodated from all members of this Cham- ber in order to assist the Government in being able to fulfil its agenda. The reason for my rising is that a fundamental pillar of democracy is that we have healthy, effective political parties.

I am standing to ask that, with the leave of this House, we allow for a recess that would allow repre- sentatives from all three blocs of parties repre- sented in this Chamber to deal with an issue that I believe is of utmost importance. I do believe the Government and the Official Opposition are aware, and I would ask if there would be leave for us to be able to have that recess so we could re-adjourn after repres entatives from the blocs ave had–[interjection] h * (14:30) Mr. Speaker: Order.

When members are recog- nized by the Speaker, they should inform the Speaker if they are up on a point of order, matter of privilege, or what the reason the member is up for. We have not got into debate yet, so I do not even know if the member is up on a point of order, on a matter of privilege or– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Inkster, for clarification. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Speaker, for clarification, much like the Government in asking for leave, we are requesting leave to allow for the House to recess so that representatives from each bloc of parties represented would be able to sit down and deal with the fundamental issue. I would raise it in the form of a point of order. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point of order. You are dealing with House business. House business should be con- ducted amongst the House leaders. That is how House business normally has taken place in the past since I have been Speaker.

That is how I have seen House business negotiated with members of the party. If that is the will of the House and if they would like the participation of the Speaker, I would be more than glad to sit down with the House Leader. I have always been very open with the House leaders and members of all parties to negotiate or conduct their businesses. Normally, a member rises on either privilege or a point of order so I get a chance to rule on it. I have recognized the honourable Member for Inkster and I will recognize the honourable Member for River Height s (Mr.

Gerra rd) so we can continue to sort out this business of the ouse. H MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Seating Arrangement Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I rise on a matter of privilege. M r. Speaker: On a matter of privilege. Order, please. It is the privilege of all members, on matters of privilege or points of order– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. As the Speaker, I must be able to hear to make a ruling, so I ask the full co- peration of all honourable members, please. o I am recognizing the honourable Member for River Heights on a matter of privilege. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, my matter of privilege is this. It concerns the fact that we were provided a seating arrangement in the House and that one of the criteria to be used in allocating the seating arrangement was that there be the opportunity within each of the three blocs for members to communicate– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I must be able to hear the matter of privilege. Matter of privilege is very serious. I have to be able to hear what the mem- ber has to say. I ask the full co-operation of all honourable members, please. The honourable Member for River Heights, please continue.

6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 Mr. Gerrard: The letter from the Clerk of the Legislature spoke very clearly of three seating blocks and laid out very clearly that one of the primary criteria in allocating seats was the ability for members within each block to be able to carry on confidential conversations.

This is an important facet of life in the Legislature, that there is a need within each of the blocks to be able to have the ability, and we would have this if we were side by side, but, given the situation within the current Legislature, I rise because it is a little bit hard to have a confidential conver- sation when the member from Springfield is on one shoulder and the member from Rossmere is on another. Mr. Speaker, this is, as we are all aware, a matter of housekeeping.

There is a need to em- ploy, as was done in this fashion, recent criteria which include functional and operational criteria for the allocation of seat s. There is a need to follow those criteria and to use principles of fairness and justice. I suggest to Mr. Speaker that in fact this was not done adequately in this place and it needs to be done. The problem here, Mr.

Speaker, is that fundamentally at the beginning of this Legisla- ture, when we would like to co-operate in making sure that the Legislature works well and that things go well that we have a government which cannot even seem to get the housekeeping matters done properly and fairly. The matter is that–[interjection] Just a minute.

As the mem- bers know full well and the Government Whip has admitted quite clearly, the Government House Leader has admitted that it is well within the ability of the Hous e leaders to reach an agreement in terms of the seating and that the seating arrangement provided for the Clerk is presented as a tentative seating arrangement of the blocs. It is a matter which needs to be dealt with by the House leaders. There needs to be an all-party agreement in terms of what is fair and what is appropriate and what is just in following riteria. c The Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh), who is the Government House Leader, we pre- sume, had admitted to me, told me initially first of all that he had absolutely nothing to do with the seating arrangement and then admitted after- wards that in fact it was very much within the purview of his role as Government House Leader and the House leaders of all three parties to reach an agreement in terms of the seating. Mr. Speaker, in this matter and a number of others, the Government has been quite arrogant in how it has proceeded.

It is time to have a little bit of fairness and a little bit of responsibility and little bit of justice. a There are some things which are of funda- mental fairness and importance. I would say that a government which tramples on the rights of smaller groups within this Legislature is a gov- ernment which is also ready to trample on the rights of smaller groups in society, a government that tolerates unfairness. A government that tol- erates the poor loose us e of criteria in making decisions is not a desirable government for this province.

I would make my case that there is a need to look at this in a fair and just way using the criteria that have been put forward. Therefore, Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the MLA for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that the House recess to allow for representatives from MLAs in all three seating blocks to get together with the Speaker to see if the concerns in relation to seating in the Legislature can be resolved. Mr.

Speaker: Before recognizing any other members to speak, I would remind the House that contributions at this time by honourable members are to be limited to strictly relevant comments as to whether the alleged matter of privilege has been raised at the earliest oppor- tunity and whether a prima facie case has been established. * (14:40) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I first want to say the law of privilege is very clear. Matters of privilege are to come up very rarely; that is in Beauchesne's Citation 27.

Privileges are about rights of mem- bers in Parliament that are absolutely necessary for the due execution of th e powers of this place and individual members. Those on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, find it regrettable that on day one of public business in this province following the election, the new dawn of business, the first order of business, the first public statements by

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 7 members from that party is about who gets to sit next to the Leader of the Liberal Party in the House. There are issues of public importance that are on the agenda today. There are some brief Throne Speech contributions and, as well, the very important issue of BSE and its effect on the Manitoba economy and individuals in the indus- try. We want to move to that. Having said that, Mr.

Speaker, who decides where people sit in the Assembly is first and foremost decided by the people of Manitoba based on how many members they have sent to represent them in the Le gislative Assembly of Manitoba. Gratuitous advice, I suppose, for members of the Liberal Party: if they want more members on the second row, their objective must be to get more members elected to the Legis- lative Assembly of course. Second, the positioning of members within blocks in this Assembly is decided on the basis of precedence. That is the only way to be fair to independent members who have come before and those who come after.

It was my under- standing on information received after the Legis- lature was called back that the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) wa s not happy that the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) was not sitting next to him. The third row is available, of course. Mr. Speaker, I remind the honourable mem- ber that the decision is based on precedent and it was done by the Clerk in the absence of the Speaker. I commend the Clerk for that difficult task.

That is the kind of challenge that faces an administrative officer of this Assembly when there is not an occupant in the office of Speaker, but she did so on the basis of precedent. I understand that in '95, for example, there was one Liberal on the second row despite having three seats in the Chamber and vacancies on the second row. She did her best efforts. I told the member by telephone a few days ago that we are only here for one day. Those matters can be appealed or dealt with by the Speaker, not as a matter of brokering among parties.

Indeed, if he thinks that it is the govern- ment of the day that decides where the Liberals sit in this Chamber, that would, in fact, be a matter of privilege. This is not. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I too would have to concur with the comments made by the House Leader with respect to this issue. Today, Mr. Speaker, is a very serious day in Manitoba. It is a day when farmers across this province have gathered to demonstrate the difficulties and the seriousness of the issues that affect not only their livelihoods, but indeed many of our communities and indeed this city and across this province.

I say to the two Liberal members who occupy this Chamber that they should not be petty on this first day of the sitting and that they should indeed get their priorities straight and deal with the issues that are of importance to Manitobans. The reality is this party does not have party status at this time, Mr. Speaker, and so, therefore, the two members are independent members in this Chamber.

So in that issue they have had much more than their share of priv- ileges because I understand that the allocation of offices that was given to them was one of the larger offices that was given to independent members in this building, and they do not even have party status. They received offices before. Offices were allocated to the Official Opposition party in the Chamber, yet we do not see an issue with that because we know that those are matters that can be dealt with outside of this Chamber in consultation with members of government.

Today we need to focus our attention on the issue that is of the utmost importance to this province, and that is the BSE issue on which members of Manitoba have come together. Without taking any more of this precious day's time, I simply indicate that this is a matter that should be set aside, and if, in fact, the Liberal Leader has a problem with it, he can approach the House Leader and you, Mr. Speaker, as now the Speaker of this Chamber, to deal with this matter at a later time. Thank you very much. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, as the seconder of the motion, I would like to take the opportunity to I think spend some time

8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 on this issue, unlike other members of this Chamber. We recognize the importance of democratic principles. Mr. Speaker, I listened to the heckling as the Leader of the Liberal Party talked and started to state his case. As the heckling was going on, I would remind all members of the very first rule in Beauchesne's and I quote Beauchesne's from the 6th Edition: "The principles of Canadian parliamentary law are: To protect a minority and restrain the improvidence or tyranny of a majority; to secure the transaction of public business in an orderly fashion." Mr.

Speaker: Order. I would just like to remind the honourable member that we are not debating the motion that you made reference to. What we are debating is if it is a prima facie case and a matter of urgency of this debate here, but we are not debating the motion itself. So I just want to kindly remind you of that, because you had made a reference that you are debating the motion, but we are not debating the motion. I just wanted to give you a kindly reminder. Mr. Lamoureux: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate your comments.

Beauchesne's 115: "A question of privilege must be brought to the attention of the House at the first possible opportunity. Even a gap of a few days may invalidate the claim . . ." Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Liberal Party did bring it at the very first opportunity. "A complaint of a breac h of privilege must conclude with a motion providing the House with the opportunity to take some action." Again, the Leader of the Liberal Party has done just that. In speaking, Mr.

Speak er, to the comments that members were refe rring to and what the Leader of the Liberal Party was talking about, I would like to pick up on a few points. First of all, when we look at a political party, what we have to recognize is that when we talk about the Legislature, really what we are talking about is the financial resources. What people need to realize, Mr. Speaker, and you might not respect the fact that there are only two Liberal members who sit in this Chamber, but we have a responsibility to all Manitobans, not just the Manitobans who happen to live in River Heights and Inkster.

That means our caucus has many different demands on it, demands that are very similar to the other opposition party and the government of the day. Financial resources are something that is absolutely critical. * (14:50) The Leader of the Liberal Party has been most co-operative in terms of working with the Government House Leader. I was even some- what discouraged in terms of the lack of good will coming from the government of the day to acknowledge the high need we have as a poli- tical party in wanting to be able to deal with Manitobans the best way we can.

That is one of those critical issues that is very important as a political party for us to be able to operate. When we talked about the seating arrange- ments, Mr. Speaker, I heard comments coming: What about the BSE and the problems that are out there? I truly believe the leader and myself are just as committed to that issue as any other MLA sitting inside this Chamber. We could come back tomorrow and the next day and the following day. At the end of the day I would ask: Where has the Government been? What about applications? Do they ev en have applications today? That is another debate. I can appreciate that.

Having said that, Mr. Speaker, when we talk about the seating arrangements inside this Chamber, for anyone to believe for a moment that there is not a difference between the Liber- als in this Chamber and the NDP and the Tories, I do not know what planet they are from. Quite frankly, it makes a huge difference if you have the two members of the Liberal Party being able to sit side by side. The Premier (Mr. Doer) will attest how many times he looks over to the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) or the Deputy Premier (Ms. Wowchuk). To be able to have these types of conversations is absolutely criti- cal.

You have a Tory on the right, a New Demo- crat on the left. It is very difficult to be able to

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 9 have any sort of discussion of any sort of confidential nature. You are taking away, and this is the argument, you are taking away from the abilities of a very significant percentage of the population who want the Liberal Party to hold this Government accountable. Over 13 percent of Manitobans, of those that did show up to vote, over 13 percent voted for the provincial Liberal Party.

We are asking that the Government, in particular the Government that has failed to rec- ognize the importance of the pillars of democ- racy, to recognize that fact and to treat us accordingly. This is a government that is very arrogant in its very nature and the way in which it deals with opposition-related issues. We have attempted in the past to get better recognition. That recog- nition has not been there. What they are doing is they are putting limitations on our abilities to be able to be as effective as we could be. They are doing that in a number of different ways.

The seating arrangement is one of those ways. The financial resources is another one of those ways. We want to be able to see the Liberal bloc in this Chamber be treated with respect. The government of the day, as will the Official Opposition at times, will come to either me or the Leader and they are going to be requiring to be able to get leave in order to get the business of the day done. This is an excellent example. There needs to be a high sense of co- operation.

There needs to be a recognition of the important issues that are before us and we need to be accommodating where we can in terms of making sure that Manitobans' best interests are being served. A good example of that today is the BSE issue. That is something which we want to see debated. In fact, I am sure that we would be quite content to see not only it being debated but a government that will actually do something on the issue. I met with a cattle producer yesterday. They are still waiting for an application. There are many agenda s in this Chamber. All we ask for is a little bit of respect. Respect democracy.

Democracy works a whole lot better. We know how seats are filled inside this Chamber. You do not need to point out anyone to me because I have a good sense of how the system works. I trust and hope that you will give serious consideration to this. I was disappointed in terms of the two House leaders' response to the leader of the Liberal Party's motion. I will anticipate that over the summer we will get both the Government House Leader (Mr.

Mackintosh) and the Opposition House Leader to revisit what we feel are very critically important issues that are going to allow us to be able to better serve Manitobans and, more importantly, ensure that there is a higher sense of democracy in our province. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: A matter of privilege is a serious concern. I am going to take this matter under advisement to consult the authorities, and I will eturn to the House with a ruling. r * * * Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk), that Conrad Santos, member for the electoral division of Wellington, be Chairperson of the Committees of the Whole House and Deputy Speaker. Motion agreed to. Mr. Doer: I move, seconded by the Minister of Health, that Harry Schellenberg, member for the electoral division of Rossmere, be Deputy Chair- person of the Committees of the Whole House. Motion agreed to. Mr. Doer: I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that Bonnie Korzeniow- ski, member for the electoral division of St. James, be Deputy Chairperson of the Com- ittees of the Whole House. m Motion agreed to.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 1–An Act Respecting the Administration of Oaths of Office Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs (Mr. Lathlin), that Bill 1,

An Act Respecting the Administration of Oaths of Office;

Loi sur la

10 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 prestation des serments d'entrée en fonction, now be read a first time. M otion agreed to. * * * Mr. Doer: I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), that a special com- mittee consisting of the Honourable Mr. Ashton, Ms. Allan, Messrs. Dewar, Tweed, Dyck, Reimer and the Honourable Mr. Mackintosh be appointed to prepare lists of members to com- pose a standing committee provided under subrule 83(1). Motion agreed to. * * * Mr. Doer: I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk), that the speech of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor be taken into consideration today. Motion presented. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Attorney- General, on a point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, as a result of discussions among the parties represented in the Chamber, there was an agreement that there would be four speakers to the Throne Speech motion, the mover, seconder and the Leader of the Liberal Party and the Leader of the Opposition and that the speeches would be limited to five minutes each.

I wonder if you co uld provide guidance on the time limits, Mr. Speaker. * (15:00) Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement of the House for the time limit of five minutes each for speakers as proposed, that is, previously agreed to by House leaders? Is there agreement of the House to limit the speeches to five minutes? Agreed] [ The agreement is five minutes for speeches. * * * I did not get an opportunity to move the motion because the honourable member was up on a point of order. So it has been moved by the honourable First Minister (Mr.

Doer), seconded by the hon- ourable Minister of Agriculture, that the speech of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor (Mr. Liba) be taken into consideration today. Agreed? [Agreed] Mr. Peter Bjornson (Gimli): I move, seconded by the honourable Member for St. Norbert (Ms. Brick), that the following address be presented to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: We, the members of the Legislative Assem- bly of Manitoba, thank Your Honour for the gracious speech addressed to us at this first session of the Thirty-Eighth Legislature of Mani- toba. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear. Motion presented. Mr. Bjornson: Mr.

Speaker, it is indeed an honour to stand here today to be the first speaker on our side of the House to move the Speech from the Throne. Before I address the content of the Throne Speech, I must first congratulate you on your election to the Speaker's Chair, extend my congratulations to all members of the Legislative Assembly for their success on June 3. Moreover, I must congratulate all who sought office and all those who volunteered dur- ing the election for a job well done. As a social sciences teacher, I have long been a strong advocate of the Canadian political process.

The recent election has demonstrated that partici- patory democracy is alive and well in Manitoba. I wish to pay tribute to my predecessor, Mr. Ed Helwer, who served his constituents well over the past 15 years.

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 I must also take this time, Mr. Speaker, to thank my wife, Joanne, and my three small children, my parents, Don and Hedy Bjornson and the many family members and friends who have worked hard on my election. I must thank numerous volunteers and mention specifically Roger and Norma Lowe and Don and Helen Tole for their tireless effo rts, not just during the election, but for the past four years that I have known them.

I would also like to thank the honourable First Minister for choosing Gimli as a site to launch the five commitments to Manitoba in the first week of the election. Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech confirms the five commitments the Government has made to the people of Manitoba. I would like to ad- dress those commitments relative to my con- stituency. With the new Gimli community health centre as the backdrop, the honourable First Minister pledged to continue to improve our health care system. Manitobans recognize the good work the Government has been doing.

We will continue to work very hard to bring the health care services and infrastructure to a level that Manitobans can be proud of. Mr. Speaker, we are committed to making it easier for young Manitobans to stay in Manitoba, to stay in their communities, offering affordable university and college programs, increasing edu- cational and vocational training opportunities and increasing the minimum wage. I look forward to hosting a youth forum in the Gimli constituency for input from the youth in the region to understand their concerns and needs.

I have met and worked with hundreds of exceptional young people and look forward to doing the same throughout my term in office. As a father of three pre school-age children, I look forward to a bright future for my children in our province. This is about our children; it is about our future; it is our pledge. Mr. Speaker, we are committed to strength- ening and diversifying our economy. The Gimli constituency has tremendous potential for growth in all sectors of tourism, agriculture, fishing and industry.

Manitoba's low unemploy- ment rate, among the lowest in Canada; the best credit rating in 15 years; our strong Manitoba economy and our pledge to facilitate diversi- fication and encourage economic growth will continue to move Manitoba forward and go a long way to keep our youth here in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we will make our communities safe and secure. I am very pleased about the proactive component of this pledge. Let us give our youth more recreational and educational opportunities to engage them in constructive activities, rather than put the emphasis on en- forcement.

It makes a great deal of sense to invest in our youth as active citizens, rather than spending money on youth correction services. When correction measures are necessary, there are several effective programs that serve Manitobans well, such as a volunteer-driven Community Justice Forum, the RCMP auxiliary forum and groups such as Gimli Restitution and Reconciliation Committee. I commend the ef- forts of these volunteers and look forward to working with both volunteer and law enforce- ment professionals to achieve the goal of safer and more secure communities.

Furthermore, besides the safety and security of persons through preventative and corrective measures, the Government has listened to the concerns of the Gimli constituents with respect to highway safety. I must commend the hon- ourable Member for Selk irk (Mr. Dewar); the Reeve of West St. Paul, Cliff Dearman; and the Reeve of St. Andrews, Don Forfar, for their successful lobby to address the highway safety concerns and the recent announcement to straighten the dangerous curves on Highway 9 between West St. Paul and Selkirk. The people of Manitoba have spoken and the Government has listened.

We will make Manitoba a safer place to live. Mr. Speaker, we will deliver all of these promises and do so in an affordable way as we pledge to continue to make attainable and sus- tainable tax cuts. Manitoba is an affordable place to live. We are committed to making it even more so by cutting taxes in a manner that will not compromise delivery of services and infra- structure improvements that Manitobans are

12 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 asking for. We will keep doctors and nurses in Manitoba and provide the necessary health care technologies and infrastructure that Manitobans deserve. We will continue to offer quality pro- grams in Manitoba schools, which includes daily quality physical education, which includes mu- sic, which includes the arts. We will strengthen and diversify our economy and keep young Manitoba entrepreneurs in Manitoba. It is indeed an honour to stand here today and represent the diverse cultural, economic and rich heritage and tradition that is the Gimli constituency.

It is a tremendous honour to move the Throne Speech on behalf of the Government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased today to be seconding the motion made by the honourable Member for Gimli (Mr. Bjornson) that the following address be presented to his Honour the Lieutenant- Governor. We, the members of the Legislative Assem- bly of Manitoba, thank Your Honour for the speech addressed to us at the first session of the Thirty-Eighth Legislative Assembly of the Prov- ince of Manitoba.

As a newly elected member of the Legis- lative Assembly, I am truly honoured to be asked to second this motion. I would like to congratu- late you on your election as Speaker of the House. You bring the gifts of fairness, honesty and strong parliamentary skills to your role of Speaker. I look forward to enjoying the upcom- ing sitting of the House under your guidance. I say this as a Manitoban who represents Manitobans. We live in an astonishing, beautiful province. I have had the pleasure of travelling to many different countries and I know there is no better place in the world to reside than here in Manitoba.

Visualize the fields of wheat, the city of Winnipeg skyline, and the tundra of Churchill. The diversity of the landscape of our province is matched by the cultural diversity of the people who populate this beautiful province. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate my brothers and sisters in the Aboriginal community on the opening of the First Nations University of Canada in Regina on Saturday, June 21. In watching the news this weekend, I could see that the 25-year process of planning this facility is evident throughout the structure. A building is a physical structure.

It is the spirit that has guided this venture that has made the difference. First Nations spirituality adorns the buildings, as it does the St. Norbert Arts and cultural Centre and the St. Norbert Behavioural Health Foundation. * (15:10) Mr. Speaker, in my role as a new member of the Legislative Assembly I have been invited to share many special celebrations. The graduation ceremony of 41 students from the St. Norbert Adult Education Centre that took place on June 19, 2003, was an event filled with pride and many tears.

Fond memories of the years past that led to the graduation of these 41 individuals, many of whom have struggled to move ahead with their lives, is a testament to the good work our Government is doing in funding education. Saturday, June 21, was the summer solstice, the longest day of the year. I was honoured to be able to share in this sp ecial day with the artistic director, Louise May, at the St. Norbert Arts and cultural Centre. The Aboriginal village that is being built with the strength and creativity of my sisters is awe inspiring.

I am proud of my Government for taking the initiative to name this site as a new provincial park and ensuring its continued success. Along with the honourable Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau) I was pleased to be able to assist in the first ever Safeway Because We Care fair at La Barriere Park in St. Norbert this weekend. This special event, hosted by Safeway, supported by Ben Moss Jewellers, allowed 1500 children and youth to participate in rides, games, crafts, a petting zoo, entertainment and a barbecue at no cost to the participants.

Children from CancerCare, Big Brothers, Big Sisters, the Rainbow Society, Variety, and Mani- toba Child Care Association were the honoured guests at this event. Safeway is to be con- gratulated for undertaking this initiative. For myself, a graduate of the University of Manitoba, it is indeed a special honour to be a member of the Legislative Assembly repre-

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 senting the interests of this university. Students in Manitoba have expressed their support of our Government's interest in their advanced edu- cation. Our capital investment program at the university, which has levered many additional dollars through the university's fundraising cam- paign, is seen as a positive step forward for the province. The fact that the engineering building is in the throes of reconstruction bodes well for the students of Manitoba. One of the key issues for people in St. Norbert is health care.

I was told numerous times by my constituents that our Government is making their lives better by improving the health care system. In my constituency the announce- ment of the upcoming expansion of Victoria Hospital, the training of more nurses, the reinstitution of the two-year nursing program, the purchase of new diagnostic equipment to allow them more speedy diagnosis of illnesses, and the announcement to train 12 more doctors in the future are viewed by my constituents as positive steps forward in health care.

Our Gov- ernment's continued support of the publicly funded health care system has helped improve the lives of all Manitobans. June is a perfect month for the beginning of summer and for the 11 new MLAs joining the Legislature today. I strongly support the motion made by the honourable Member for Gimli (Mr. Bjornson). Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome all new members on both sides of this House. I would like to take the opportunity to congratulate you on your position, Mr. Speaker.

In particular I would like to welcome the MLAs on our side of the House: the new MLA from Lakeside (Mr. Eichler); the honourable member, the MLA from Minnedosa, who will be joining us shortly; the MLA from Morris (Ms. Taillieu); and, of course, the MLA from Steinbach (Mr. Go ertzen). We welcome you to the House and we know that you are going to do a tremendous job. I am delighted to put a few words down about the Speech from the Throne that we heard. Indeed a few words is probably appropriate, because this is a government with few results. We know that.

I do believe that this Legislature was convened on the basis of an abbreviated Throne Speech, because we all in this House want to do the right thing, and that is to get to a debate to talk about an issue that is very important to all Manitobans, and that is the debate around BSE. I am somewhat astonished that the Leader of the Liberal Party, who reluc- tantly agreed to come back to even have a debate in this House, has caused those in the gallery who have been here waiting patiently for us to get into what is a very important debate, and that is something on BSE.

I was somewhat surprised when I realized that the First Minister (Mr. Doer) had not ade- quately filled the two vacant Cabinet positions that were left vacant with those who did not run this time. We, on this side of the House, clearly do not have a lot of confidence with the mem- bers opposite. It is inte resting that perhaps the First Minister does not have the same confidence with the people on the back benches to bring them forward for this session, because I think it is important that when we start the very first session that those Cabinet positions are filled.

I would hope, on behalf of all Manitobans, with all the issues that are happening that we do not find something falling through the cracks because the First Minister does not have the confidence to fill those Cabinet positions im- mediately. We know that the budget process is a very important process. The Budget was introduced, and, in fact, what we find is that there has not been adequate time before we recessed to have the Estimates process.

We know that on June 18, this Government had to sign a special warrant to authorize $1.6 billion of expenditures to ensure that provincial programs and provincial services are being looked after. All Manitobans know that for the last three and a ha lf years and some, this Premier has had a spending habit. What is going to be interesting is when we get a chance to come back on September 8–that is some four months since the Budget was introduced in this House–four months' worth of spending will have gone on before we have a chance to go through the Estimates process.

That is something that Manitobans should be mindful and careful of, particularly because they know that this Premier has a spending habit.

14 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 In this Throne Speech, they talk about issues, health, hope for young people, com- munities that are safer. They may want to applaud it, but what do you say to those Mani- tobans who are having to wait in longer and longer waiting lists because of the failure of this Government? What do you say to those Mani- tobans who live in fear in their communities because of the incredible increase that we see in violence in the province of Manitoba under this Government?

What do they say to Manitobans about rising Autopac rates, about the fact that this First Minister wants to build Conawapa, but there is no talk of going to the Public Utilities Board? We hope that the Government does the honour- able thing and does what this side of the House wanted to do and eliminate the education tax off of residential property and farmland. We know that there is much to do. We look forward to the debate on BSE, and we look forward to getting back on September 8, because there is much to hold this Government's feet to the fire on. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to begin by saluting all those who stood as candidates for whatever party in this last election, because the democratic pro- cess that we have been through is fundamental to good government in this province, fundamental to good representation of people. Whether we are talking about the rural and the farm com- munity, or people in the urban areas, it is impor- tant that we have good democracy. I would like to congratulate the MLA for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) on his election. After a gap of several years, to have the MLA back is certainly a welcome presence in the Legislature. Mr.

Speaker, let me say a few words about the Government. It is a government which has, unfortunately, started with a certain level of arro- gance, which campaigned on five priorities, but very little in the way of a real plan. What arro- gance. A government with a five-minute Throne Speech. We would have been very co-operative in longer, but the Government did not have much to say, I would say, to the people of Manitoba. What arrogance to try and put through such a brief statement of intent. Mr.

Speaker, this is a government which, instead of announcing a real Cabinet to be in place for this term, announces only that the ministers will stay as they are, with two assuming added responsibilities. The real prob- lem here is that until the major shuffle, which the Premier has already said that he is going to make within the next week, two weeks, month, two months, we do not know precisely, but clearly, until that major shuffle is announced, ministers will not really know what they are going to be doing for this term.

You have got people filling temporary slots, and it will be much harder to get the business of the province done because there is a lot of uncertainty about who is going to be doing what for the remainder of the term. Mr. Speaker, this is a government which has not done very well in terms of housekeeping, as we have already pointed out. This is a govern- ment which needs to pay attention to things much better than it has.

Clearly, the omission in this Throne Speech is reference to specific items which would attract young people to Manitoba, omission of items which would help to create a positive climate for business and investment and jobs in this province, the omission of elements hich would address environmental issues. w * (15:20) Missing was any mention in a meaningful way of reform to the health care system, reform which has been very clearly needed, recognized as badly needed, and of course, the inadequacy of specific measures to provide aid for those affected by the BSE.

The bovine spongiform encephalitis is a very important issue and one of the things that this Government could have done because they are bringing forward a budget resolution in a very short period of time was to take or reduce even the education tax on farm- land. That was a measure that could have been done today, but we are going to have a budget resolution which, in fact, will not incorporate that, we expect. Too bad. So I am sad to say that this has been a very inadequate and rather arrogant approach to government from this Throne Speech and it is a rather unsatisfactory way to start the session.

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 Mr. Speaker: Any further speakers? Are there any further speakers on the Throne Speech? Seeing no further speake rs, I will now put the uestion. q Order. The question before the House, moved by the honourable Member for Gimli (Mr. Bjornson), seconded by the honourable Member for St. Norbert (Ms. Brick), that the following address be presented to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: We, the members of the Legislative Assem- bly of Manitoba, thank Your Honour for the gracious speech addressed to us at this first session of the Thirty-Eighth Legislature of Man- itoba.

Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Some Honourable Members: No. Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour of the motion, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to the motion, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. An Honourable Member: On division, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Okay, the will of the House on division? Some Honourable Members: On division. Mr. Speaker: On division. REINSTATEMENT OF BUDGET Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, as a result of discussions with the Opposition parties, I would like leave to move a budget reinstatement motion and dis- pense with that without debate and then move to the BSE debate. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for the honourable Government House Leader to move budget motions? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger), that not- withstanding any rule or practice of this House, the steps or segments of the financial process introduced and concluded during the Fourth Session of the Thirty-Seventh Legislature be forthwith reinstated in th is first session of the Thirty-Eighth Legislature as follows: Intro- duction, debate and adoption of the budget motion and the tabling of the messages of His Honour the Lieutenant -Governor and the Esti- mates attached thereto shall be deemed to have been introduced, considered and concluded during the first session of the Thirty-Eighth Leg- islature and that the ensuing steps of the financial process be continued at this or any subsequent sitting of this House in the current session.

Motion agreed to. Mr. Mackintosh: As a result of agreement, it is my understanding that there may be leave for a matter of urgent public importance to be brought forward by the Official Opposition and, Mr. Speaker, it would be our intent to move directly to the 10-minute debates under 36(4) without the introductory putting forward of the case, but move to the debates. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to waive the introductory portion of the debate and move right into–is there leave for the MUPI to come forward? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted.

MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Kirkfield

16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 Park (Mr.

Murray), that the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the need to debate the impact on the Manitoba economy of the discovery of bovine spongiform encepha- lopathy in Alberta and the subsequent closure of the border to exports of Canadian cattle, bison, sheep and lambs; including the impact on producers, on the numerous businesses and industries that provide supplies and services to our multimillion dollar livestock sector, as well as the need to debate ways to ensure the border is reopened quickly and that the federal and provincial compensation flows in a timely and equitable fashion.

Mr. Speaker: The need to debate the impact on the Manitoba economy of the discovery of bovine–dispense? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, we have in this province some 10 500 livestock producers, cattle producers that have been impacted by one case of a disease that has been prevalent in some of the European countries. That impact is going to have a major, major economic impact on all of the provinces in Canada, but no more probably, no more of an impact than here in Manitoba.

Because of the significance of our cattle industry in this province and a lack of processing facilities that we have in this province, most of our cattle must be and are exported out of this province of Manitoba, either to the United States or to other provinces such as Alberta, Ontario, Québec and others and that processing is where the problem lies, I believe, in the compensatory package that has been negotiated between the provinces and the federal government.

However, before I get into that, I believe that the 12.3 percent of the national beef herd that we have in Canada, the two federally inspected killing plants that we have in this province and the 25 prov incially inspected kill- ing plants that we have in this province are part of the problem that we must deal with in this province of Manitoba. * (15:30) Mr. Speaker, we have roughly between 40 000 and 60 000 individuals who will be affected negatively by the closure of the U.S. border and other borders to the importation of meat products in this province.

Manitoba has the third largest beef cow herd after Alberta and Saskatchewan. Just better than 12 percent of that herd is here. We have 1500 beef cattle producers that market more than half a million head of cattle in this province of Manitoba for slaughter and sale in this province and other provinces. The value of those cattle is better than half a billion dollars, $525 million, or one-seventh of the total value of the agricultural production in the province of Manitoba.

We believe that about 98 percent of the commercial beef cattle operations were cow-calf and many producers retaining or buying calves for further feeding to be sold as stockers, short- keeps or for slaughter. The remaining 2 percent of the commercial operators were feedlots, the largest of which has a capacity of 6500 head. We know that the beef cattle industry is about $190 million to feed in the 2001 year. Those are the last numbers that we have. I believe that two small, federally inspected plants slaughtered about 6500 head of cattle. The 25 provincial remaining ones slaughtered about 9500 in this province.

We believe that the impact to the employment situation and the layoffs currently being incurred in the transportation industry, the slaughtering industry and directly in the feedlot industry are going to have a major, major impact in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, why is this occurring when we have determined that the province of Manitoba is probably the safest food-processing and pro- ducing province in all of Canada?

We know that the processes that have been put in place by the beef producers to tag their cattle, to be able to identify those cattle throughout the processing and export industry are second to none anywhere in Canada. We wonder, Mr. Speaker, whether we are now feeling the effect of the American closure even after it has been proved that the industry has only experienced one case in all of Canada. We are wondering now wh ether we are feeling the effect of our Premier (Mr. Doer) and our

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 Prime Minister standing hand in hand in con- demnation of our closest neighbour's activities in Iraq and in condemning our neighbour's eco- nomic strategies and policies. Is the silence of our next-door neighbour on the BSE and the opening of the border an indication of how cold the relationship has become between Canada and the United States? Are the courts' actions on water and water flows hampering our trade relations with the United States?

The silence is both deafening and costly to the producers, the cattle producers and all the agricultural pro- ducers in the province of Manitoba. I believe it is imperative, Mr. Speaker, that our Premier take similar action to what the premier in Alberta has taken. Our Premier has at least on three different occasions gone to Wash- ington to deal with the water issue. How much more important and how much of a greater economic impact has the beef industry in Man- itoba than water and other issues that perceivably might affect us in the future.

I believe it is extremely important that our Premier should take the initiative, first of all, to meet with the Prime Minister and to try and affiliate himself with those people who can in fact go to Washington and negotiate. Maybe what our Premier should have done, maybe he should have gone with Ralph Klein to Washington to stand tall by his side and negoti- ate on behalf of Manitoba farmers. I think it is absolutely imperative that the economic impact of this and other issues that we have seen in the past are negotiated and discussed properly. Mr.

Speaker, I am concerned about the measures that were indicated in the federal- provincial-territorial release and the communi- qué that was sent out dealing with how the compensation that has currently been announced by the federal and provincial governments and agreed to by this Province would be dealt with. It states measures that will allow producers to receive payments for cattle owned as of May 20, 2003, that have subsequently been sold for slaughter in Canada will receive assistance. It goes on to say the percentage of government contribution decreases as the price declines.

The government contribution decreases as the price declines, creating a strong incentive for pro- ducers to sell at the best price possible. I ask the members of this Legislature how can we justify a compensation package that is only directed at those cattle that are going to be slaughtered in Canada, sold and slaughtered in Canada. The cow-calf operators and all the other beef operators and the goat and sheep operators, all the backgrounders, are going to be affected equally. Their prices have dropped dramatically.

Yet we are only going to contain the com- pensatory package to those cattle that are sold and slaughtered in Canada. What kind of an agreement is that? Mr.

Speaker, I believe decreases as the price declines, the contribution decreases as the price declines, is clearly an indication that this Gov- ernment of Manitoba and the federal government have no intention to pay a great deal of money to compensate the beef cattle producers in this province of Manitoba, indeed in Canada, for the declines that they have seen in the last while, the price declines, and how that is going to impact the rest of the economy of this province. I say to you, Mr. Premier, I say to you, Mr.

Speaker, that this is going to have a more dramatic effect than almost any other impact we have had, including the bus manufacture plant that the Premier was willing to compensate quickly and retain the employment. We agreed with that, that we retain the bus manufacturing in this province. However, the impact to our em- ployment, on our economy, is going to be greater than any of the things we have seen in the past.

We believe it is imperative that this Province immediately reconvene a meeting with Ottawa and go to Washington to try and convince Wash- ington and the President of the United States to open the border to Canadian cattle coming into their country. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I would like to thank all parties for putting this matter of public interest before this Legislature today. I would like to offer our thanks to the people who have shown patience with the timing of this debate here this afternoon. Certainly, I think it is important to state over and over again with one voice in this Legislature

18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 and one voice across western Canada and across Canada that the beef in Canada is safe, that it is safe to eat, that the one cow that was detected was removed from the food chain, the one cow was dealt with, and every other contact that was made from that cow going through various herds in Saskatchewan and even other places south of the border came up negative in terms of its testing. The independent international experts have come up with a view that the Canadian beef supply is managed in a very safe way.

They also have come to the conclusion that this situation is isolated and not worthy of continued action against the producers of western Canada and against the exportation of beef from Canada to our major markets. * (15:40) We certainly agree with everyone here that the border is crucial.

We know that from our discussions with the western premiers before any BSE case took place, that if there ever was a case south of us or north of us, due diligence would be used by various sectors, province to province, state to state, Canada to the U.S., due diligence would be utilized in the region and in the various countries to ensure the safety of our food supply. We would, obviously, take measures if the situ- ation was on the other foot, so to speak. Having said that, due diligence has taken place. The tracing back through the various herds has taken place. It has taken place over two and a half weeks ago.

The fact that the border remains closed, Mr. Speaker, I believe is a political deci- sion now in Washington, not a scientific one. The first couple of weeks, yes, due diligence would be applied on either side of the border if the situation was reversed, because the safety of the food supply is crucial for all of our mutual citizens. Mr. Speaker, the western premiers did make this the No. 1 priority a couple of weeks ago in Kelowna. We did work all weekend to get an agreed-upon proposal and program.

I am disap- pointed that the member did not like that program, but it was developed by all Ag minis- ters, was developed by the province of Alberta that is on the front lines, if you will, of this issue because the cow was detected first of all in Alberta, and it was developed in consultation with the cattle producers. In fact, the premiers themselves did not take the proposal from the Ag ministers for a couple of hours. We went back and reconfirmed the position of the cattle pro- ducers across western Canada and across Canada before we came forward with a proposal to the Prime Minister.

We took that proposal to the Prime Minister in a conference call. We called on a conference call with all premiers. The chair of the meeting had that conference call with the Prime Minister and there was nothing, nothing, zero on the table when the western premiers met. The Prime Minister discussed this with us the next day and we had got agreement that all Ag ministers would meet on the Friday when he was attending a speaking engagement in Vancouver.

Having said that, there is no question in our minds that two weeks ago, three weeks ago, we should have had a bridge for our producers that dealt with the systemic issues of feed cattle and the appropriate date. We did develop a proposal that had a private sector or the producer taking some of the loss. The obvious for federal and provincial governments taking the remaining loss between the price that it was now being sold–I think it was at 72 cents compared to $1.05–and that that proposal would form the framework of our bridging agreement. We also agreed, Mr. Speaker, that we had to get this border open.

Obviously, the federal government is responsible for trade and getting the border open. We also knew at the time that Premier Klein, who helped develop the proposal to the member opposite, is not that positive about it. I am a little surprised at that. Premier Klein was going to meet in a meeting that had already been established with Vice President Cheney and with other representatives in Washington. We all, obviously, would go anywhere at any time if we thought that that would help the case.

It was the opinion of Premier Klein and the people of Alberta that it was important for him to have and carry on the one-on-one meeting that he had established. Vice Pres ident Cheney had not agreed to a meeting with everybody in Canada at the time. He had agreed to the one-on-one meeting and to anything we might do to jeopardize that one-on-one contact with Vice President Cheney, we thought was maybe good politics but bad policy and we followed the advice. We are working together as one team.

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 I just say that to members opposite because I would go anywhere and I would agree with members opposite, this is as important as the water in United States, the diversion projects. It is as important as the bus company. I know that if all of us would have, if the premier of Alberta who was going to Washington already and set up all these meetings already had felt that this would be an advantage, we would obviously do it. He feels he has a friendship with the Vice President that goes back a long time with the oil and gas sector.

It goes back after he was a federal minister in the Reagan administration and when he was a private producer in Wyom- ing. We obviously want to do what is best for producers, not what is best for us politically, what is best for producers. That is why all the western premiers–all the western premiers–have agreed with Premier Klein's strategy. Now I hope that the meeting this week on Wednesday is successful. We are going to be in contact with all the western premiers to see what next step we can take. At one point last week or the week before we thought muscle cuts would be allowed through the border.

We thought that there would be some movement of the beef industry and obviously there has not been. I suggest to mem- bers here that you can ascribe all kinds of reasons. I know that when we talk about this, we have had trade disputes now with the United States on the U.S. farm bill. We have had trade disputes now and with the major subsidies that are there, including now the speciality crops that were not there before. We have had major dis- putes on softwood lumber. We have disputes now with the Wheat Board and these disputes are very troublesome to producers.

This border situation is unique because we have, according to Premier Klein, until August 31. If we do not get any movement at all, the industry is completely destroyed here in Canada as we know it. We know and agree with mem- bers opposite on how many families, how many communities, how many industries, how many jobs, how much economic activity is attached to this industry here in Canada and here in Mani- toba. Mr. Speaker, I want to say to everyone here, to paraphrase the old term that was used before: Mr. Gorbachov, take down this wall.

I would say to the United States today, to this Legislature, and we will send this letter to Vice President Cheney in advance of the Alberta premier's meeting on Wednesday expressing the views of all members that President Bush and Vice President Cheney, take down this wall. It is an unacceptable barrier to trade. It is not based any more on prudence. Prudence was obviously in place in the first two weeks. I respect the pru- dence that took place in the first two weeks. We would do the same here in Canada to protect our producers.

But test after test after test have proven that science is backing up the fact that our food supply is safe. Our cattle industry is safe. Our beef producers produce the best beef in the world and we would hope that short-term economic gain for an American producer is not making and rendering, if you will, the Canadian production and the Canadian cattle industry obsolete. So, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that all members join together in this emergency reso- lution, that we should not play politics with it.

We are absolutely supporting Alberta in its reso- lution which we supported in Kelowna and we wish the premier of Alberta success on Wednes- day. We need those borders open. I believe that if we cannot succeed this week with the premier's intervention in Washington, that the Prime Minister has got to find a way to get these borders open. The border should have been open today. It should have been open a week ago. Tomorrow marks the fourth week and that is way too long. We stand with our producers here in Manitoba. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Before I recognize the honourable Leader of the Official Op position I just wanted to remind all honourable members, I did not do it at the start but MUPIs are for two hours and each speech is limited to 10 minutes. I just forgot to inform the House, so I am doing it now. * (15:50) Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak on a motion, some- thing that is very important to those people that have taken the time to come to the Legislature today to listen to their representatives debate an

20 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 issue that is very, very important to an industry in this province, and that is what is happening to our producers with respect to BSE. I will make a comment. What we have just heard from the Premier, from the First Minister (Mr. Doer) of this province, is a history lesson. Manitobans do not want a history lesson. They know what has happened. They want action. They want something to be done.

If I say a few things that perhaps may make members in this House feel a little uncomfortable, well, so it should be, because I can tell you the people in this industry that depend on it for a livelihood, they are feeling pretty darned uncomfortable today, and they have felt uncomfortable for a couple of weeks. I ask the Premier, and I say to the Premier, not in a partisan way, but as I say, as the Premier of the Province of Manitoba , if this is a priority as has been stated–he said on the radio that this is a No. 1 priority.

If it is such a priority, then simply the question must be asked: So what are you doing about it? Is it enough to say, well, the Premier from Alberta is going down and we respect the fact that he had a meeting, and we are not going to interrupt that meeting, because we were not invited to go along? Well, is it enough then to say to the producers in Manitoba that what we will do is, everybody hang tight, do the very best you can, because we are putting all of our hope on what the Premier of Alberta might be able to do with the Vice President of the United States of America?

I say it is not good enough for the people of Manitoba. The question is simply this: When the Premier of the province talks about one voice, when the Premier of Manitoba talks about the fact that this is political, it is not scientific, I agree with the Premier when he says that. Again, the history lesson that we have heard in this Chamber today from the Premier, we all understand that it is not scientific. It is well beyond that. It is now political.

I say to the First Minister of this province, we saw a situation that the Americans were taking an approach in Iraq and the Prime Minister of Canada made a decision on behalf of the people of Canada to turn his back on his friends. It is important to know that, when this First Minister talks about one voice, he stood as the Premier of Manitoba and said: I believe it is my responsibility to support the Prime Minister of Canada with his comments that he has made with respect to the Americans going into Iraq. One voice.

Well, is it not interesting that the Premier of Alberta was not part of that one voice, that he took a different approach and has very clearly stated that he stands behind his friends the Americans? Now, today, we find that this is not a scientific but a political decision, and it is clear that what the Americans are doing is they are saying to Canadians thanks for your support. Thanks for all your help. Where were you when we needed you?

I do not want to get into a debate about what the Prime Minister said with respect to going to Iraq, but it is clear that all the Americans were looking for, all they wanted to hear from their neighbours to the north, were three simple words: We support you. That is all they wanted to hear. But instead we got leaders and premiers of provinces and prime ministers that turned their backs on the Americans. Now we are suf- fering the consequences of that. So this is an industry that needs help. This is an industry that does not need speeches.

This is an industry that is suffering because everybody is taking the approach and saying, well, gosh, one of the premiers is going to visit the Vice President. Well, maybe he can solve it. I say to you, to the people that have come to this Chamber, it is not good enough. We have to unite. The First Minister of this Province should get on a plane and make the arrangements. Has he talked, for example, to the Governor of North Dakota? Has he talked to the American ambas- sador? Has he talked to the senators from North Dakota? Has he talked to the U.S. Agriculture representative?

Has he talked to the federal Lib- eral representative in Manitoba? Has he talked to the Prime Minister? The fact of life is that– An Honourable Member: He has talked to everybody.

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 21 Mr. Murray: Well, now they say they have talked to everybody. That is not getting us any- where. We need some action. Something has to be done rather than listening and hoping that maybe the Premier of Alberta is going to go down and solve all the problems here in this province. Mr. Speaker, it is not good enough. We believe that this issue is one that has to be dealt with immediately. We heard the First Minister state that he would meet with representatives anywhere, anytime. Is it not interesting?

I believe that when the U.S. farm bill came in, there was a crisis for our ag producers in Mani- toba. We heard the First Minister at that time say: I will meet with the Prime Minister any- where, anytime, absolutely 100 percent. Fact: the Prime Minister of Canada came to Winnipeg. Fact: the First Minister was in Moose Jaw at a Western Premiers'–or ministers'–Conference, less than one hour away by airplane. Did he come back and meet with the Prime Minister? No, he did not. Now, we hear, again, more political rhetoric, Mr. Speaker, on the basis of I will meet any- where, anytime. Boy, it sounds good.

It really sounds great, but what is it doing in terms of solving the problems that our cattle industry is having here in Manitoba? It is doing the square root of zip. Nothing. Cattle producers in Man- itoba have been very, very patient. Now, we hear from the First Minister that he is prepared to sign on and work with the federal government with respect to flowing fund s. I think the Premier loves to use the words "bridge financing." Mr. Speaker, the fact of life is we have seen this Government and how they operate when they sign on with agreements with the federal government.

During the discussion over the APF, the 40 percent that they were gleefully happy to sign on to, they did not flow one-plug nickel to the ag producers in Manitoba. Now, do we have a situation where the First Minister and his Government are going to say to all those cattle producers, and all the ripple effect of those producers that are affected by the cattle industry, are we now going to hear: Well, we are a part of this, and we believe it should be done, and we believe it should be done yesterday. Mr. Speaker, those producers would be waiting for this Premier to flow the money.

If he uses the excuse: We do not know what is in the program; we have to wait for the feds, I say shame on the Premier, because, in 1999, the former Progressive Conservative government realized there was a disaster happening in Manitoba. What did the provincial government do? They flowed the money and they dealt with the federal government later. It is not a matter of stating, let us wait to see what the feds do. This is Manitoba. Manitobans are waiting for this Government to do something, to show some action. I ask the First Minister (Mr. Doer), and I give him all my support; I give the support of our caucus.

We will stand w ith him if he will, as he says, make this a priority and get the border opened. We will do it in a non-partisan way. We will stand as an all-party committee, but please, Mr. Premier, enough with the speeches. We need action. Thank you very much. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agricul- ture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this issue in the House. I can tell you it is an issue that I have been working on since the one case of BSE was detected in Manitoba. It was an issue that ministers across the country began to deal with very quickly.

We knew that there was going to have to be scientific work done to prove that there was only one case of BSE in this country. We should be proud of the work and the trace- back systems that we have , so that we were able to prove that there was only one case of BSE. * (16:00) Now that that science has been proven and we know there are not any other cases here in Manitoba, the biggest priority for us is to open the border to the U.S. If that U.S. border is not opened, it is going to have a devastating effect on the industry, much gr eater than what we are seeing right now.

Certainly, there is a significant impact right now because livestock are not moving. We know that currently we are losing about a million dollars a day because of the border closure. We know that we are very dependent on the U.S.

22 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 market because the majority of our livestock goes to the U.S. as live animals. Until that border is open to not only muscle cuts but live animals, it is a significant impact. We have to say that Manitoba will suffer the most because of the number of our animals that go in the live state to the U.S. Mr. Speaker, right after the election this became a priority for us again, as I say, even though we worked on it during the campaign. It was a priority at the Western Premiers' Con- ference.

The package that went to the Western Premiers' Conference was designed by the Cana- dian Cattlemen's Association. It was a program that we looked at. In fact, while we were in Kelowna, as the Premier said, we called back to the Manitoba Cattle Producers to see if they were on board with the particular program that was designed. We found that Manitoba Cattle Producers were involved in the designing of the program and supported the program that went from the Western Premiers' Conference to the Prime Minister of Canada. Mr.

Speaker, the program that was proposed was a disaster assistance program, a program that would be 90-10, because we feel that this is a national disaster and should be handled through a national disaster program. Unfortu- nately, when that program was put forward to the federal minister the package that came back is different. It is not exactly the same package that was proposed at the Western Premiers' Confer- ence because the program will end very quickly nce muscle cuts start to go. o Mr.

Speaker, that was one of the concerns I had with the new proposal, that once muscle cuts start to go across the border then the support payments stop for the rest of the animals in the country. But in the news release it says: Upon notification of the border opening, the ministers will meet immediately to review conditions during the adjustment period to determine what further action is needed, if anything, to facilitate he continued movement of cattle. t Mr. Speaker, we recognize that this is just a temporary program.

The highest priority is to open the border, but in the meantime if the border is not opening we have to help our cattle industry. We were told by the cattle producers that the most important thing to do was to start moving some of those fed cattle into the pro- cessing chain. If you start to move the cattle then there is activity at the auction marts. There is some trucking activity. This is the advice of the cattle producers on how we could get the ndustry moving. i Mr.

Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the hair C I want to say now that this program is designed and there is part of the package that will go to help with the declining prices in ani- mals that are slaughtered in Canada and there are also incentives to move surplus meat and cuts that are in the system. The members are talking about what the payments are going to be like. Well, I want to tell all members in this House that, again, my department is working very closely with the Manitoba Cattle Producers Association. They were in the office the other day and they are going to be in the office.

I think there is a con- ference call tonight. They are going to be in the office in the next couple of days, working through how this money should flow. Manitoba has another challenge because, as I said, our animals traditionally go to the U.S. Now we have to find a way for our cattle to fit into the slaughter facilities that are there right now.

We had a commitment, when we were put- ting this proposal together at the Western Pre- miers' Conference that there would be fairness in this system, that it would not be all the cattle from Alberta that would be slaughtered at the Alberta facilities, that there would be a system put in place where cattle from Manitoba can move as well. We also have slaughter facilities here in Manitoba and we are looking at how we can encourage more use of those facilities but ulti- mately our challenge is that we have much more beef in this country than we can consume. Canadians consume about 30 percent of the beef we produce.

That leaves us with a surplus of about 70 percent. We can only slaughter so many animals before the cold storage and all the reefer trucks and all of those other things are filled up. That is a challenge and that is why the premier from Alberta and others have said that if we do not resolve this issue by the end of August, we are going to see a restructuring of the beef industry in this country. We will not be able to

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 23 raise the number of animals or finish the number of animals in this province if the border does not open and if we do not develop alternative mar- kets. Canadians can just not consume that much beef, and Canadians also like the best cuts. They like the nice, lean, trim parts of the animals. They like the steaks, but there is a whole lot of ther meat in there that we just cannot consume. o So this is a huge challenge for us, a huge challenge for the people in the beef industry, and right now the pressure is on those with feedlots.

It is not going to take very long before we start, the months will go by very quickly when we have those grassers that have to come off and go to some feedlot. If we do not have this feedlot system working again, if we do not have these borders open, then there will be no market for those facilities. There are many other issues that are tied to this as well. There is the transportation, and we were disappointed that at the beginning they would not waive the EI weeks in order to get people drawing EI sooner. There is the whole rendering industry. There is the feed industry. There is the auction mart industry.

This is very significant. Mr. Speaker, I want to recognize the work of the Canadian Cattlemen's Association and the work the Manitoba Cattle Producers are doing in order to help us come to some solutions. The first solution we are work ing on is moving some of the fat animals, fed animals, into the system. Many more issues to work on on this and we will continue to work with the producers. I was very pleased for the number of people that came out today to join us on the back lawn of the Legislature to show their support for the beef industry as well.

We should all go home and talk about the high quality of beef in this province, it is a healthy food, and also just put our support to consume it this weekend, on the long weekend. Enjoy your beef steak and support the industry, but as I said this package that has been put together may not be the best package for everybody, but it is a step forward. We have to work through this one and then we have to start to address the many other issues that are out there facing this industry.

I want to just thank everyone for taking the time today to put their thoughts on the record of this industry and offer your support to all of agriculture in Manitoba. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am pleased today to join in this debate on the economic issues that are facing our cattle producers in this province. This request for this debate came as a result of the Premier wanting to hold the Legislature in order to be able to get on with the business of the province.

One of the conditions that was put on the table by our party was that we dedicate a part of this day to the debate on the mad cow or the BSE issue in this province because it is of such a critical nature. * (16:10) Mr. Speaker, if you look at the amount of money that is being lost on a daily basis in this province as a result of the border to the United States being closed to cattle producers in this province, we are losing millions of dollars daily. That is impacting not only on the producers themselves, but it is impacting on our entire economy.

The economy of every small commu- nity, the economy of this city, all depend on the agriculture business. You know, this is the time when we begin to recognize how important the agriculture industry is to us as a whole province. I am happy to say today that the Government I think has now come to grips with how serious this matter is and is indeed working with the cattle producers. I congratulate the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) and I encourage her to continue working in a positive way.

I ask her perhaps if this becomes much more critical than it is that she may have to look at a special request to Treasury Board to help farmers to bridge the gap between the period that they are in now and the time wh en they can actually move those cattle to market, because there are dollars being lost right now and banks have certainly been co-operative, but I think the day is going to come when we as the people of Mani- toba need to support this industry financially.

Whether it means bridge financing, or whether it means non interest-bearing loans until such time that the program can click in, I think we need to really show our support to cattle

24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 producers and farmers in this province at this time. As long as I have been in this Legislature, Mr. Deputy Speaker, there have been difficulties in the agriculture industry, not as a result of what the farmers do, not a result of what the producers do, but it is always exte rnal factors that come into place that impact on the economy and on the livelihood of these families that work so very hard to produce the quality of food that we enjoy in this province. So, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I think it is time for us as legislators today to commit ourselves to support this industry in its entirety. The Minister of Agriculture knows that I will support her completely if in fact she makes the decision to support the farmers with bridge financing until such time that their product can move to market. We do not know how long that is going to be. The Premier of Alberta is in the United States now. In talking to the Premier this after- noon, he indicated that it was a private, one-on- one meeting with the Vice President where this issue is going to be discussed.

I respect the fact that the Premier has recognized that the Premier of Alberta is speaking not only for himself but indeed for premiers of the provinces that are being impacted by the situation. One of the things I think we need to under- stand is how vulnerable we are when it comes to dealing with our neighbours. If we do not treat our neighbours right in terms of the kinds of things that we say about them and the kinds of support that we give them in times of need, this all can be translated into the impacts that are being imposed upon us when borders are closed to products that we produce.

I think the other thing we need to recognize is that trade is a very important part of our province. A large percentage of the products that we produce in this province are exported to the United States. The United States is the biggest importer of products from Manitoba. No other jurisdiction in Canada or anywhere else imports more of our products than the United States does. We have to respect that trading partner. We have to respect the fact that these are important trading partners to us.

We are such a small province that indeed we have to show that they are a valued customer and that our products are important to them as well. In entering into this debate, we just wanted to make sure that producers across this province know that we are standing with them, that we are standing shoulder to shoulder with them through this difficult time, and if the government of the day sees it in their wisdom to support the agri- culture industry at this time with cash, we will be there supporting that kind of a move. I go back to 1999, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, when farmers in the western part of this province were flooded and could not get their crops in. Yes, it was in June, I believe, that we made a decision that we would forward monies to pro- ducers at that time who could not get their crops in, and then we would fight it out with the federal government at a later date. That is exactly what we did. We went ahead and we made the commitment; we made the payments. I think the payments were received in farmers' pockets by September of that year, and then we went to work to recoup the share of federal funding that was supposed to be forthcoming. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I think this is a similar situation. If we look at other disasters across this country, whether it is the SARS situation in Ontario, the ice storms of Québec, the flood of the century, where co-operatively we all worked together in this Legislature to make sure that the right things happened for the people who were losing their livelihoods, not because of anything they had done but because of a natural disaster. I would say that this is as close to a natural disaster as you are going to get, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, when you have the border of your biggest trading partner closed to you because of one incident, not of a management decision, not of a decision that any farmer made but simply because of a natural situation that has occurred– maybe not natural but it is an unfortunate situation, and we have the borders closed to movement of our products into the United States and into markets. It also shows how vulnerable we are as a province by not having a packing industry in Manitoba. That is a serious issue that we need to address as we look at the economy of this

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 25 province down the road. I think we have to challenge the people who work in the Depart- ment of Industry, Trade and Mines, the people who work in the Department of Agriculture, to go out and to actively pursue an industry that is going to perhaps be able to establish itself as a packing industry in this province. Unfortunately, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have lost our packing industry in this province. That is a sad situation because at one time Manitoba had the largest packing and processing industry in the beef industry of all the provinces.

We lost that about 30 years ago. I think it is time that we re-examined that issue and that we sought actively for people and for industries and for processors that might be willing to re- establish business in this province, because we rely very heavily on the United States or on Alberta to process our products. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I see that my light is flashing which means I have two minutes. I want to say to all producers in this province that this is not a partisan issue. This is an issue that is an economic issue. It is an issue I think that all members of this Legislature have come to understand.

We understand how serious it is. We understand the impact that it is having on families and on communities. It is time for us to act. We cannot sit by very much longer and wait for governments to decide in a political sense to open the borders. We need to pursue the opening of that border very aggressively. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I ask the Premier (Mr. Doer) of this province to take those extra measures to contact the United States and the political powers in the United States to make sure that they understand the importance of opening the border to the economy of our industry in our province.

These are reasonable people. They are not going to turn a blind eye or a deaf ear to the requests that are being made by the Premier of this province. I ask the Premier of this province to work very closely with the Premier of Alberta, the Premier of Saskatchewan and other premiers in Canada to make sure that we do everything we can to ensure that those borders open and that the countries then are prepared to accept the products that we produce. There is no question about the quality of our product. It is some of the finest product in the world.

We have always prided ourselves in that, but we have to take that extra step now to support the industry, to support the farmers and to make sure that the border between us and the United States is open as quickly as possible. With that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak. * (16:20) Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise in the House this afternoon to put my thoughts on the record in regard to the outbreak of bovine spongiform encephalopathy, and that is the last time I am going to try that.

I will refer to that as BSE from this point forward but certainly an issue of grave importance to not only the cattle producers in the province but to all Manitobans in general I think. Agriculture plays a critical role in our economy and the beef industry, the livestock industry is a big component of that so it is a matter of grave importance to us and very appropriate that we are going ahead with this debate this afternoon. The Interlake is home to many cattle pro- ducers. In my home community of Poplarfield, just for example, I am virtually surrounded by cattle producers.

I realize that we are in a very difficult situation today largely given the fact that we do not have any slaughter facilities in our province and well, not to any great extent, and we are largely dependent on the U.S. market in terms of our live cattle exports. So I would like to begin, first of all, by drawing attention to the fa ct that it seems, once again, that our national government refuses to recognize a crisis when one is staring them in the face, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I would suggest that if this were in Québec, for example, where a lot of the votes lie, they may have recognized this as a disaster, which it truly is, and would have accorded it the proper status and would have entered into a program of 90% payments with the Province paying 10 percent. Instead, once again, they have downgraded it because largely it is a problem to western Canadians and we are dealing with the 60-40 split. I recall when the

26 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 Saguenay River flooded in Québec that the response was instantaneous, when we had the ice storm in Québec as well and all the sugar trees were damaged by the ice it was recognized instantly as a disaster. Yet here all of western Canada is in dire straits and, again, you know it is a 60-40 split.

So I think the first message from this Legislature should be to our national govern- ment that we want this recognized as a national disaster and expect them to move forward in a responsible manner not just from a political perspective which sadly appears to be the case today. On the other side of the fence, I think that our neighbours to the south as well have to be a little more realistic and members on both sides of the House have alluded to this. The Member for Emerson (Mr.

Penner), very early on in his speech, was suggesting that it was our reluctance as a country to enter into the Iraq theatre that has led to this situation, the implication being that the United States is punishing us for not follow- ing along with them into Iraq. That may very well be the case, and that is a most unfortunate occurrence if that is what is at the root of this. Canadians do not need any lessons from the United States when it comes to courage and when it comes to what is right.

In 1914, Canada was one of the first countries to declare war against the Germans and once again in 1939 it was within seven days of England declaring war that Canada was in that war as well, and I seem to recall that it was not until 1943 that the Americans entered the European theatre. So we do not need any lessons from them when it comes to courage and backbone in going to war when the cause is just.

When we have entered into the war with the terrorists, and we here in Canada acknowledge that is a just war, we acted there as well when it was identified that the Taliban regime in Afghanistan was where a lot of these terrorists were being trained, we did not hesitate. We went with our American brethren into that theatre and fought it because it was a just war, but we reserve the right in this country to decide for ourselves what wars we are going to enter into. We are not going to be strong-armed into doing something against our will and something that we feel is not right just for the sake of the econo- my.

If that is the way the American government wants to do business, I suggest they seriously take a look at their foreign policy and decide whether or not they want to be a member of a community or whether they are just going to be the strong man in the world. I think that point has to go on the record. Our beef producers today are feeling the brunt of these practices, as have our wheat pro- ducers time and again in the past. How many times has the Canadian Wheat Board been chal- lenged by the United States government?

We have gone to the World Trade Organization eight, nine, ten times and continued to prove that our trade practices are ju st. As soon as the case has been decided, we end up facing another challenge. Our forestry producers are also experiencing trade sanctions to that effect so, really, if they truly are our neighbours and our brothers then they would treat us a little bit more fairly and not continue to try and strong-arm us into making poor decisions. I think the Premier (Mr. Doer) hit it bang on when he said on the back steps of the Legislature this afternoon, Mr.

Bush, bring down the wall because this wall has no business being there. We have done our due diligence. Our scientists have gone out and determined the cause of the outbreak. It has been determined that only one cow in all of Canada has been confirmed with BSE, which is on average with spontaneous mutation of this disease. This disease does spontaneously mutate at about one out of one million animals. That may be the case here. It may be the case of contaminated feed that has come in from elsewhere.

If that is the case, I think our neighbours to the south better look to their own herds as well because our herds are largely intertwined in North America. There is a lot of trade back and forth. I think an international team of scientists has looked at this and has determined that it was contaminated feed that led to it and has also determined that it is very likely that other cases of BSE have occurred and that, given the inte- grated nature of the North American beef cattle industry, BSE cases may well have occurred in the United States as well.

Given the level of scrutiny on the Canadian industry, I think if this continues for too much longer the same level of

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 27 scrutiny should be applied to the industry in the United States. If that happens, there is a good chance that BSE might be present there as well. Cooler heads have to prevail here. I think we have to speak with one voice out of this Cham- ber. I am a little disappointed in the Leader of the Opposition (M r. Murray), the tone that he took. Obviously, it is just another political foot- ball from his perspective that he is going to kick around and try to divide this Legislature.

Once again, I implore all members of this Legislative Assembly to speak with one voice and co- operate fully on this issue and try and get resolution here for the be tter interests of the cattle producers and the farmers in this province. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. * (16:30) Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Manitoba cattle producers are facing an unprecedented difficulty due to border closings of 33 countries to Canadian beef and related pro- ducts. This was a result of a single case of BSE in Alberta. Since then, 2900 cattle have been slaughtered in Canada with no sign of BSE.

Extensive testing has not detected a single other case, and BSE has moved from a health issue to an economic issue. In Canada there are 900 000 head of cattle presently backlogged in the system waiting for processing which does not include cull cows, butcher bulls, which are traditionally marketed in the United States. There are 1.6 million head behind them and another 5 million calves grow- ing up behind them. Cattle are backed up on the farm depleting feed supplies. On June 19, slaughter cattle sold for 45 to 47 cents instead of the normal $1.05 in Alberta.

In Manitoba, Win- nipeg Livestock Sales opened for one day to help desperate producers sell some of their animals at distressed prices for critical cash flow. Sheep shipping is down 70 percent and markets in Ontario are flooded with sheep that cannot go south. Bison and elk producers are in a similar predicament. Farmers are unable to get loan extensions from nervous bankers. Process- ing plants such as the one in St. Laurent are considering layoffs. Farmers are cancelling their orders because the plant is suddenly faced with passing on carcass fees of $80 a tonne.

Canadian packers will only be competitive when they can resume exports of all products to all major markets. They must be able to sell meat and bone meal for value rather than pay for its dis- posal. Truck dealerships, implement dealerships, farm supply centres are facing reduced sales. Employees are wondering if they will have jobs tomorrow. Mr. Deputy Speaker, our industry is in crisis. We need immediate help with no strings attached. Manitoba's cattle industry is worth $525 million annually, a significant portion of the provincial economy.

Marketing of cattle amounts to 30 percent of livestock product sales and provides 15 percent of total farm cash receipts in 2001 alone. Manitoba beef exports account for a significant 7 percent of the total national beef exports. The industry in Manitoba is losing $1 million a day. The average farmer gets very little out of safety nets now in place. Two things must happen immediately, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in order to help the industry survive. First, the border must reopen to exports of Canadian livestock. The Premier (Mr.

Doer) must vigorously lobby the Prime Minister to take whatever actions necessary to convince the U.S. and other governments to start accepting imports of Canadian livestock and related products. Our governments must do all they can to restore international trade relations with North Ameri- can and Asian markets. They must send a strong message that Canadian beef is safe and that our testing standards are high. Secondly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is critical that the real aid starts to flow to livestock pro- ducers now.

The Premier has agreed in principle to the compensation package proposed by the federal government, but the Minister of Agricul- ture (Ms. Wowchuk) wants to cull this disaster issue by throwing responsibility for 90 percent of the compensation plan back to the feds. This kind of petty bickering is counter-productive to the real solutions to a desperate situation. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we call on this Govern- ment to do the right thing, to get emergency cash into the hands of our producers now. There is no time to lose. In addition to a competitive

28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 2003 compensation package, the Premier should give the industry a more accurate time frame in order for the industry to inform their creditors, thereby alleviating some of the financial pressures. We need immediate measures to stimulate Mani- toba's cattle and cow markets to help producers with the border closures. Our grain farmers were promised a cost-share aid package under the Agricultural Policy Framework. The Premier refused to flow his share to the farmers. Will he do the honourable thing this time and co-operate in this joint compensation effort? Mr.

Speaker in the Chair Once the borders reopen to muscle cuts, we must realize that there will be big losses as cattle prices remain well below the breakeven point of the excess cattle supply. If the program ends as soon as the market opens, there will be larger movement of cattle to the U.S. which will be sold at distressed prices. This could trigger an American antidumping action which would fur- ther devastate our producers. This Government should look ahead to plan B. Prices in Canada must be supported at or near American prices till the full backlog of cattle in feedlots has cleared the market.

The long-term health of our livestock industry and our provin- cial economy is at stake. Our producers are looking to governments for decisive action to protect this industry and the thousands of jobs that go with it. Mr. Speaker, we need compensation that will foster better market conditions and help our producers through this economic disaster. We need a program that will encourage the buying and selling of cattle. We need to get the cattle moving in a system that will help prevent a market crash when the border opens. We need effective leadership and vision to resolve these issues as soon as humanly possible.

We call on the Premier (Mr. Doer) and his Government to do the right thing for the livestock industry and indeed for all Manitobans, for this crisis will eventually affect all of us. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker, congratulations on your re-election to your position. I also want to welcome all of the new MLAs here in the House for the first time today from all sides of this Chamber. Speci- fically, I want to say welcome back to the new/old Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). I am really hoping in the case of Inkster that the original movie does work as well as the sequel.

I am one of the types that always thinks the original is always better than the sequel so that is the challenge I can throw out to my friend from Inkster. An Honourable Member: I appreciate that. Mr. Struthers: You are welcome. I want to say I am very pleased that this issue is before our Chamber here today. I know this is an important issue, not just in my con- stituency and in my Parklands area of our beautiful province. I know that this is significant for our whole province of Manitoba. I know this is disastrous for our province. I know this is putting producers and communities in very tough straits. Mr.

Speaker, I want to very much say that I appreciate the opportunity to take

part in this debate here in the Manitoba Legislature. I also want to make sure people understand there are a number of things that are happening to help this situation. These things spring from the willing- ness of a number of different people and depart- ments to work co-operatively with each other to help the farmers, to help the communities that are affected by this one single case of BSE. I want to point out that daily contact is made from the federal minister, Lyle Vanclief, to our minister and to the federal secretary of agricul- ture in the U.S.

That is not an occurrence that you can point to a lot with many things that have a national and international flavour. This is an international/national crisis that we are dealing with. Now, I want to talk a little bit about why we need to co-operate, why we need in this Legis- lature to be absolutely united in our position in support of our farmers in Manitoba. It is abso- lutely imperative that we be united on this. We have taken that opportunity on other issues. We have taken that opportunity with agricultural crises that have sprung forward over the last number of years. We as a Legislature have

June 23, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 29 moved forward together for the best interests of the farm community. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that that is the most important thing that we can do here today, that together all sides of this House can move forward with a discussion and with some thinking on how we can help our farm community. I am positive that that will be done. I am hopeful that we will achieve that here oday. t * (16:40) Why would we take that step? Well, it is an important industry to Manitoba. There is no doubting that. It contributes a lot to our econo- my.

We have had many farmers move forward to diversify out of strictly grain or grain and oil- seeds into livestock, into cattle operations. It is an important step that we have taken in the past. It is big for our economy. It is big whether you live in rural Manitoba or northern Manitoba or in the city of Winnipeg or in the city of Brandon. It is an important issue. We are talking about food safety, which is important. We are also, though, Mr. Speaker, talking about the future of many little communities throughout rural Manitoba.

Now I am speaking from the basis that we have safe food in this province, in this country. I am making that assumption. I am very confident that I can say that. I am very confide

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-1-01
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 1st hansardpdf 01.pdf
Language	en
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