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November 24, 1994

35th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

MUNICIPALITY OF METROPOLITAN TORONTO AMENDMENT ACT (STREET VENDING), 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR LA MUNICIPALITÉ DE LA COMMUNAUTÉ URBAINE DE TORONTO (VENTE DANS LA RUE)

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM AMENDMENT ACT, 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT LA LOI PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT DE L'ENFANCE

MUNICIPALITY OF METROPOLITAN TORONTO AMENDMENT ACT (STREET VENDING), 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR LA MUNICIPALITÉ DE LA COMMUNAUTÉ URBAINE DE TORONTO (VENTE DANS LA RUE)

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM AMENDMENT ACT, 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT LA LOI PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT DE L'ENFANCE

RAY TWINNEY

FRED HEALEY

WASTE DISPOSAL

LEADER OF THE THIRD PARTY

LONG-TERM-CARE REFORM

GUN CONTROL

MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGER

NURSERY SCHOOLS

CHILD DAY

FIREARMS SAFETY AND CONTROL

PUBLIC SAFETY

MINISTRY OF TRANSPORTATION CONTRACTS

FIRE SAFETY

HEALTH INSURANCE

AGRICULTURE LABOUR POLICY

MINISTRY OF TRANSPORTATION CONTRACTS

ADOPTION

LIQUOR CONTROL

COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

HIGHWAY IMPROVEMENT

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

GASOLINE PRICES

EDEN MILLS BRIDGE

ADULT ENTERTAINMENT

CASINO GAMBLING

CLOSURE OF GOVERNMENT OFFICE

ADULT ENTERTAINMENT

GASOLINE PRICES

HEALTH INSURANCE

ADULT ENTERTAINMENT

LONG-TERM-CARE REFORM

FIREARMS SAFETY

MUNICIPAL AND LIQUOR LICENSING STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT DES LOIS EN CE QUI A TRAIT À LA DÉLIVRANCE DE PERMIS D'ALCOOL ET À LA DÉLIVRANCE D'AUTRES PERMIS PAR LES MUNICIPALITÉS

REGIONAL MUNICIPALITY OF DURHAM STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1992 / LOI DE 1992 MODIFIANT DES LOIS EN CE QUI CONCERNE LA MUNICIPALITÉ RÉGIONALE DE DURHAM

UNCLAIMED INTANGIBLE PROPERTY AMENDMENT ACT, 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR LES BIENS IMMATÉRIELS NON RÉCLAMÉS

HEALTH INSURANCE

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The House met at 1001.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): The honourable member for Oriole.

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): The issue that I bring before the House today --

The Deputy Speaker: Just present the reading first, please.

MUNICIPALITY OF METROPOLITAN TORONTO AMENDMENT ACT (STREET VENDING), 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR LA MUNICIPALITÉ DE LA COMMUNAUTÉ URBAINE DE TORONTO (VENTE DANS LA RUE)

Mrs Caplan moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 183,

An Act to amend the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto Act / Projet de loi 183, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la municipalité de la communauté urbaine de Toronto.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): Pursuant to standing order 96(c)(i), the honourable member has 10 minutes for her presentation.

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Having been in the House since 1985, we have to be reminded of the procedures of private members' hour from time to time, so thank you for your patience.

Bill 183, which is

An Act to amend the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto Act, is really

an act or a proposal that was brought to me from a representative of Metropolitan Toronto council, Councillor Howard Moscoe, and I have also met with Douglas Floyd, the commissioner of transportation, to discuss this issue.

I thought I'd take just a couple of minutes of my time to explain to the members of this House and anyone who is watching the debate what the issue is. I've sent to all members a packet of information, but I think it's important that we be really clear and on the record what the problem is and what this legislation is designed to do.

Some time ago, the city of Toronto, via a private member's bill in this House, was given the power to regulate, through the ability to establish a permit system, vendors who set up to sell their wares on city streets and road allowances. The reason they made that request many years ago was obvious. They had people who were putting out their tables and selling their wares and there was frequently disruption as to who was in which location and who could be where and who had the right to be on those city road allowances.

This Legislature gave the city of Toronto the ability to set up a system. They chose a lottery system. They decided how many vendors they thought were appropriate for their streets. Over the years they've watched how that system has worked, and the information I have is that it works quite well.

So why is Metropolitan Toronto interested in this? As you know, there is the Metropolitan Toronto Licensing Commission, which actually gives out licences. What they have found is that all of the other municipalities within the Metro partnership, within the Metro federation -- and those other members are the city of North York, the city of Scarborough, the city of Etobicoke, the borough of York and the city of East York -- do not have the same powers as the city of Toronto.

As vendors have had success in the city of Toronto, they have been moving into the other municipalities within Metropolitan Toronto, and there is no ability for the local councils to deal with those very same issues that the city of Toronto dealt with over the past few years.

The request has come that we amend the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto Act to give to the other municipalities within Metropolitan Toronto the same ability to design a system as they see fit. This act does not impose upon the rest of the municipalities in Metropolitan Toronto the city of Toronto solution.

It enables them to develop their own solution to solve the problem of the proliferation of vendors in areas where the community may not be happy with them, where there may be seen to be too many, where they may be causing traffic problems, or where it could simply be a dispute over who has the right to that location among the vendors themselves. That's what this legislation does. It enables the other municipalities in Metropolitan Toronto to have the same rights and powers as the city of Toronto has.

This is not a province-wide bill. There are other municipalities, such as the city of Ottawa, which already have those authorities, and in fact this Legislature has granted the ability to solve local problems from time to time, so I think it's appropriate for us to respond.

Why is this coming forward as a private member's bill?

Frankly, I asked that question of Metropolitan Toronto, and what they were told by the Minister of Municipal Affairs was that this was an appropriate matter for a private member's bill, that the city of Toronto had originally sought the powers through a private member's bill, that the government didn't have time on its agenda to bring it forward as a piece of government legislation, but that if there was agreement in this House, the government gave the commitment, the Minister of Municipal Affairs has given the commitment, that this would be accepted by the government and they would call this bill and it would be dealt with expeditiously.

I have brought this legislation forward at the request of Councillor Howard Moscoe and with the advice of Doug Floyd, the commissioner of transportation, and I believe that it fits the criterion of allowing a permitting system.

For those who are interested in how it would work, the analogy I would use is that the province of Ontario gives you a licence to drive your car. However, the city of Toronto has the authority to give you a permit for overnight parking. They have a parking permit system that not other and all municipalities have. The city of North York, for example, does not permit parking on their streets overnight.

So notwithstanding the fact that vendors have to get a licence, and they will still have to get a licence, this will require vendors to get a permit from the city, all of the cities and the borough of York, in order to establish themselves on a city road allowance, on a city right of way, on city property.

I think it's a reasonable request. I want to point out to the members of this House that the system that the city of Toronto has set up is working well. I think the other municipalities which are supporting this bill and wish to have the ability to establish their own system will look at the city of Toronto and say, "Will that work for us?" and if it doesn't, it allows them to design their own local response, their own local solution.

So I would point out that this is enabling legislation. It gives to the other municipalities within Metropolitan Toronto the same rights that the city of Toronto already has. I don't see it as a partisan issue or a partisan debate in any way. I understand how busy the government's agenda is and that it is frequently, on this kind of an issue, easier for them to respond to private members and a resolution from this House.

I ask the legislators here today to support this legislation in the spirit in which it is presented, which is one that says a municipality, one that we are actually a part of -- this building is actually in Metropolitan Toronto, as we know -- has made a request that we can respond to, and that we can respond to in a non-partisan and expeditious way.

Having put that argument forward, I'd like to say that I am from the city of North York and I represent the constituents in the riding of Oriole. This is at this point in time not a big problem in Oriole, but I can foresee that it could be an issue in Oriole, on our streets.

I know that it is an issue on Yonge Street, which is not very far from Oriole riding. The boundaries of Oriole are Leslie Street on the west, Victoria Park on the east, the 401 on the south and Steeles Avenue on the north.

But Yonge Street is really just a couple of miles away and I know that in the western part of North York and in other parts of North York -- I think you'll be hearing from other members in Metropolitan Toronto whose municipalities are starting to experience some difficulty as vendors try to establish themselves in a location and there are frequently tensions both with the local community and with other vendors if you don't have in place a logical and sensible way of designating who can set themselves up and where.

I'd like to point out and just put on the record that this doesn't cost the taxpayers anything. There's no cost involved in the establishment of this permit system, or there should be no cost. Whenever the city of Toronto and Metropolitan Toronto have done a licensing system or a vendor permit system, the costs of the permits are paid for, any administrative costs. So it is a reasonable request. It has no cost to the provincial government. It can be set up in such a way that there is no cost to local property taxpayers, as the vendors who will benefit from being able to sell their wares on city road allowances will pay for the privilege of doing that.

The legislation that I've put forward is in that spirit and I'd ask for support of all members of the House.

Mr David Johnson (Don Mills): If I could just correct the member for Oriole at the outset, it is the borough of East York and the city of York. East York is the only borough in Canada, and very proud of it too.

Mrs Caplan: I stand corrected.

Mr David Johnson: But I might say that, yes, this is an issue in Metropolitan Toronto, the licensing of vendors. It doesn't rate up there, I don't expect, with the issue of taxation, for example, that the Metropolitan Toronto Board of Trade has brought forward with the publication Killing the Golden Goose, which outlines the high level of property taxes in Metropolitan Toronto. It has been pointed out, for example, that a hotel in Etobicoke pays about twice the taxes as a hotel across the border in Mississauga. It doesn't quite rate up there with that issue.

That issue, I might say, is one where the Metropolitan Toronto Board of Trade says there are basically three problems with regard to the level of taxes in Metropolitan Toronto. If you were to ask the Metropolitan Toronto council, my guess is that they would say that taxes would be the number one issue that we should be dealing with in this Legislature.

The board of trade has mentioned three problems. One is an antiquated assessment system that unfairly deals with many businesses, such as hotels, but many other businesses in Metropolitan Toronto. There's a problem that the school taxes are on the property taxes, and the school taxes are very onerous across the province of Ontario, but particularly in Metropolitan Toronto and the city of Ottawa, where the province contributes nothing towards education. The total burden of the school tax falls on the backs of the residential property taxpayers and the business taxpayers.

Thirdly, the cost of welfare which has grown enormously over the last six or seven years: I think the cost of welfare during the term of the Liberal government in the 1980s tripled and it's doubled again during the term of the NDP government. Those are the kind of problems the Metropolitan Toronto Board of Trade sees.

But still, there is an issue with regard to the vendors. I served on the Metropolitan Toronto council and I've seen that particular issue come before us and it certainly provokes a great deal of heat. It perhaps doesn't rate up there, again, with the issue that was dealt with by the taxpayers in the city of Toronto; that issue on the ballot was, should the Metropolitan Toronto level of government be eliminated? Sixty per cent of the people of the city of Toronto said the metropolitan level of government should be eliminated.

My guess is that if that same question was asked across Metropolitan Toronto in the other five municipalities there would probably be a similar vote. The vote is registering a concern with regard to the overlapping, the duplication, the layers of government that we have, not only in Metropolitan Toronto but in Ontario, certainly here in Metropolitan Toronto.

That is another major concern that I would suggest most in government, perhaps all in government, would say if we need to get on with something. If we need to spend time in this House, it would be on that issue rather than on street vending. Still, it is a concern.

Other concerns would rate higher in the estimation of the people of Metropolitan Toronto: job creation, unemployment. There are 200,000 fewer people employed within Metropolitan Toronto today than five years ago, 200,000 jobs lost; vacant office space; vacant industrial space; businesses that were gainfully employed years ago that are out of existence, that have gone bankrupt; people thrown into unemployment; people thrown on to the welfare rolls.

These are the kinds of issues, I would suspect, about which the governments within Metropolitan Toronto and the people of Metropolitan Toronto would say: "Tackle those issues, address those issues. Let's do something to get job creation moving in Metropolitan Toronto." That again comes back to the document put out by the Metropolitan Toronto Board of Trade just last month. They point out that it's taxation, it's the assessment base that is out of date to address those problems. Those are the issues you need to deal with.

We could talk about transportation in Metropolitan Toronto, a major issue, an issue that would be on the tongues of the Metro councillors, on the tongues of the local councillors, I would have to say, much more so than street vending. Street vending is important in its own right, but it would hardly compare with establishing an affordable and an effective transportation system in Metropolitan Toronto, and one that is going through and has gone through considerable crises in the last few years. Doug Floyd has been mentioned, the commissioner of transportation for Metropolitan Toronto. I've known Mr Floyd for many years, a former resident of the borough of East York, I might add.

Mr Floyd, being in charge of the transportation department in Metropolitan Toronto, is most concerned about street vending, no question. But if you were to ask Mr Floyd, "Make a list of the major concerns you would have within your department," I would suggest that at the top of the list would be his concern for the lack of progress in maintaining a good arterial network of roads in Metropolitan Toronto. There has been virtually no major construction of any improvement, any addition to the arterial network of Metropolitan Toronto for two decades.

Think back. When was the last time there was a major addition to an arterial road, an extension or a new arterial road, in Metropolitan Toronto? Think of the traffic two decades ago with regard to the traffic today in Metropolitan Toronto. Think of the Don Valley Parkway in the morning and the crush of traffic --

Mr Jim Wiseman (Durham West): I just got off.

Mr David Johnson: -- and the people who come in from Durham West, as the member across the way says, using the Don Valley Parkway. That's what Doug Floyd, I'm sure, would put towards the top of his list as a problem.

He would also put on the top of the list the maintenance of the existing network of roads and bridges, and bridges are right at the top of that list. Believe it or not, the Don Valley Parkway is a big bridge. That's what it is, and the Don Valley Parkway is going through considerable maintenance each and every year. Ask the motorists --

Mr George Mammoliti (Yorkview): How about this morning?

Mr David Johnson: The member for Yorkview says, "How about this morning?"

Interjections.

Mr David Johnson: Well, the vendors have to come to work somehow and all the people who come to work in Metropolitan Toronto --

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): Those vendors would have a field day.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, order. The member for Durham West, the member for Fort York.

Mr David Johnson: These are some of the major problems that we should be dealing with because Mr Floyd, as the commissioner of transportation, has inadequate resources to deal with the maintenance of the bridges, the maintenance of the Don Valley Parkway, the maintenance of the major roads, the transportation network in Metropolitan Toronto.

Interjection.

Mr David Johnson: Yes, the bill. This bill is important. Street vending, I know from --

The Deputy Speaker: If you would address your remarks to the Chair, you won't attract the debate with the other members, please.

Mr David Johnson: Mr Speaker, I apologize. They are somewhat disruptive but we do have to put up with them.

This bill, I know from personal experience, is a hard one to deal with because there are more street vendors in Metropolitan Toronto than the Metro government deems there are positions. If you go back a number of years ago, they were uncontrolled. The street vendors were permitted to set up shop anywhere. That's the free enterprise spirit and indeed they did.

Some people considered this a bother because they would set up side by side and there would be competition and perhaps in some cases they'd block sidewalks and perhaps in some cases they would set up near a store that sold essentially the same sort of products that they did. Yes, in some cases, there were harsh words between the vendors, there were harsh words between the general public and the vendors, perhaps the odd fight; I don't know.

It was deemed that this system of street vending, the carts selling popcorn or selling hot dogs or whatever they were selling, had to be controlled somehow and regulated, so a system was brought in. Since Metropolitan Toronto does not have the authority, it was brought in through the city of Toronto, that does have the authority and there was a working together and that relationship still works today in the city of Toronto.

I must say, the city of North York has a few occasions to use such a system as well. But most of the municipalities would not come under scrutiny by the vendors because the vendors go to where the people are and the people are primarily downtown here in the city of Toronto; perhaps at Sheppard and Yonge Street, around the North York centre. But in East York, for example, the municipality of which I was mayor for a number of years, there aren't too many street vendors.

Mr Mammoliti: You did a good job.

Mr David Johnson: And I did a good job. Thank you to the member for Yorkview.

Because there aren't that many people, the street vendors aren't attracted there, so it's no big problem. I can tell you that on occasion flower vendors have set up on O'Connor Drive, for example. You come around the corner on O'Connor Drive and there they are, or there one individual would be, and traffic would be stopped and perhaps a little bit of a danger. But by and large, there's no particular problem in East York with regard to the vendors, so this is primarily a problem in the city of Toronto and, to a smaller degree, in the city of North York.

The system that's in place is not without it's faults. There are more vendors than Metropolitan Toronto has established locations for the vendors. Consequently there's a lottery and if you win the lottery you're in business; if you lose the lottery, tough luck, you don't get a spot. People who have had a spot for a couple of years, and I believe the lottery comes up every two years, may find themselves out in the cold. There are certainly complaints about the kind of lottery system that is in place, but the Metropolitan Toronto council, I guess, believes it's the best that can be done.

It is an issue that needs to be dealt with. It doesn't rate with regard to policing, for example, in Metropolitan Toronto; the issue of policing, the issue of the illegal booze cans where people are getting shot. It doesn't compare with the problem of safety in our communities, with the problem of drug use and policing for drugs, catching those who are selling drugs and the horrible impact the drug trade is having on many communities in Metropolitan Toronto. I know in my own community of Don Mills there was an operation just this past September, it came to a culmination in September.

Thirty people were arrested: 16 of them were pushers, 14 of them were buyers. That had a most tragic impact on the community where the illegal trade was taking place. If you ask the people of my community, that would be of much greater importance, as would other issues such as the ambulance service.

There were reports in the press recently that there are problems in the ambulance service. There's a lack of morale, the response time is a bit too long. I know these issues need to be dealt with, but there's a different funding formula here in Metropolitan Toronto and I wonder how many people know that in this Legislature.

Ambulance services generally across the province receive 100% of their funding from the province of Ontario, but do you know that in Metropolitan Toronto -- and we're talking about Metropolitan Toronto here today -- only 50% of the funding for the ambulance service comes from the province of Ontario and the other 50% comes from the property base in Metropolitan Toronto? There's another issue we could be talking about, to improve the level of service of the ambulance department.

Water treatment is an issue that is of most concern. The Provincial Auditor has pointed out that some million people have been in jeopardy across the province of Ontario, none of them I believe in Metropolitan Toronto. I believe the water system we have in Metropolitan Toronto is a safe system, but nevertheless of critical importance. There's an issue we could be talking about.

Economic development is another issue. All the mayors are getting together in Metropolitan Toronto to promote economic development, to promote jobs and growth. That's another issue we should be talking about to assist Metropolitan Toronto.

But in all that mix, somewhere down the list -- and I'd have to suggest considerably down the list -- does come the issue of street vending, so I'm glad I've had an opportunity to speak to it for 15 minutes today.

Mr Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa East): I'm pleased to support my colleague from Oriole to bring Bill 183 to our attention. I would have preferred the government to do it, but the initiative this morning comes from the opposition. This is a needed piece of legislation for the simple reason that, as pointed out by the member for Don Mills, there is a problem in Metro and I think this bill will provide us with a solution.

As you know, street vendors are becoming a big business, not only in Metro but in Ottawa-Carleton. I can recall two or three years ago the city of Ottawa instituted a bylaw which now permits vendors to locate in certain areas. This has improved the walking distance from business to business and also it improved the parking system around the market area. This piece of legislation has resolved 90% of our problems in Ottawa-Carleton, and I don't see why members of this House would oppose such a bylaw.

As pointed out by the member for Oriole, it's enabling legislation and it's up to individual municipalities in Metropolitan Toronto to choose the model or the system. It could be a lottery system or it could be something else. I think it's only right that this enabling legislation will give municipalities the power, the responsibility, to pinpoint or to locate these locations and allocate them as they may choose.

I think this kind of legislation cannot be opposed by any member of this Legislature for the simple reason that it gives the municipality that power to regulate their problems. They know better because they live it every day, and I think municipalities will simply enjoy that privilege or that power. I hope that every member in this House will support the member from Oriole.

Mr Marchese: I want to take my five minutes to speak to Bill 183 and to say that I support fully the bill that the member from Oriole has presented. Bill 183 will give authority to set up different types of zones, no-vending zones, issue permits and would also give the power of seizure. All of those things in my view are things the Toronto council has had since 1990, and they are things that every other municipality within Metro should be able to have.

Because it's been very successful in Toronto there has been pressure to allow vending outside of Toronto, obviously, because the number of vending licences issued by the Metro licensing commission exceeds the number of legal vending sites in Toronto. That clearly shows us that it's been working in Toronto and that there are many more who would love to be able to vend outside of the city of Toronto.

The lack of authority to this point has meant that some Metro area municipalities have prohibited vendors entirely, as a means of control. We argue that prohibiting vendors entirely isn't the fair way to control vending at all. In fact, it's an unfair way to do it. We want to make the argument, or at least I want to make the argument in supporting Bill 183, to say that street vending is important, it's part of what makes up the fabric of many of our communities. Vendors bring excitement, character and life to our communities.

In fact, the Eaton Centre vice-president, Dennis Harrs, said that vendors add flavour to downtown as long as they are regulated. What we're asking through this bill is to allow Metro to be able to regulate, not just in Toronto but in all municipalities.

We say that vendors increase the number of street pedestrians, benefiting small and large businesses. Some business people believe that vendors' presence is positive because in fact they attract people, not send people away. Vending is popular, something that we should be able to facilitate, and Bill 183 gives Metro the tools to facilitate the activity in a regulated way instead of having to prohibit the practice entirely.

Bill 183 would in my view foster, not stifle, the entrepreneurial spirit that is within individuals to make a living, and if some members of this House present this as a problem, we say it is good for business, it's good for individuals because they create small businesses, as opposed to presenting arguments, as Mr Johnson has, that it's somehow a problem. "It's okay for Toronto, but nobody else really wants it." That's not true. This is good for business and it's good for small business.

I want to make another point: Vending has been used as a stepping stone to establish new businesses for those who have already established themselves as vendors on some of those city and Metro streets. Regulation therefore is key to a number of things: Sweep illegals off the streets, establish an ordered framework for vending, protect the legitimate vendors, open up more areas to legal vending in certain areas where they choose. It would foster entrepreneurial spirit, something I would think the Tories in the end would support, in spite of the things Mr Johnson has stated.

So I would hope that rather than talking about everything else under the sun, as Mr Johnson has done, we will focus on this particular bill, which I think is good, not just for Toronto but for Metro. I support the member for Oriole. I think it's a good bill and I think this government should facilitate the passing of that bill.

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): I too would like to add my support to private member's Bill 183, presented by my colleague from Oriole. It is always a pleasure actually, an unusual pleasure, to speak on a bill that all members of the Legislature support. It's also interesting to hear their perspective, just as Mr Johnson put his perspective to it. I commend him for his perspective because it adds to the kind of character of legislation and the character of the House itself, and the member for Fort York so eloquently supports that kind of initiative.

As you know, in the last couple of years, maybe the last five years, we've seen such a recession in this province. We see an increase of unemployment, so therefore what we have here is the creativity of creative entrepreneurs who may decide not to seek employment in the regular pattern but to get out and do some sort of vending. As a matter of fact, it adds a lot of great character to the city. You go down and somehow you can walk around and purchase things, which normally you have to go inside to do. But again, of course, we have to have some sort of regulation.

It's quite timely too, I find, that this legislation has come forward, because at times it was maybe unnecessary in certain cities or in a certain borough to do so. In Toronto, which is more or less the hub of where many of the activities are, they have seen a lot of vending and maybe we can, as a model, look at Toronto and find out how it enforces its legislation.

Of course, we have a couple of concerns here. While I support them very strongly, I find that in the enforcement aspect of it we must make sure that those who are enforcing it will be rather sensitive to the entrepreneurs, the vendors, that people understand the laws and realize that laws are put in place so we have proper regulation. The people who are being harmed by the way they are not regulated, the pedestrians, the parking aspect of it, motorists passing by -- that would cause quite a lot of problems while we randomly have these vendors around. Therefore, having laws and regulation and a process in which to do it is extremely important from that point of view.

Also, I hope we don't have the sort of red tape that finds these vendors lining up for a long time to get their vendor's permit and frustrating them in that aspect of it so that people become rather creative in ways of not getting a licence. We hope the red tape aspect of it will be eliminated and people are able to get their permits to exercise this kind of creative ability.

In Scarborough, for instance, one of the fastest-growing cities, with half a million people there, and of course the city hub is of different areas, we see a lot of vending happening, vendors emerging. Of course, they welcome that and give their support to this legislation. As a matter of fact, all the cities and the borough, as my colleague from Oriole expressed, have shown a keen interest in it and want us to move ahead.

We know of course private members' bills sometimes get clogged up in the process of having first and second reading and are not passed through legislation. I would encourage colleagues here to make sure this goes through the House before we have this adjournment, recess or whatever by December 8. It's such an appropriate time because of the fact that it's Christmastime too, so those would be in place. We know that if we should lose this legislation now, we'd have to start all over again and maybe have more problems in that regard of having it properly regulated.

So in regard to this effort and this legislation, I strongly support this. I'd urge all members to encourage their municipalities in any creative manner to administer that. I commend my colleague here and I appreciate the opportunity to speak on this legislation.

Mr Mammoliti: I want you to put yourself in the position of an individual who has saved $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 and who decides to buy a particular unit in a particular municipality, whether it's a condominium -- or decides to rent a particular unit -- and takes his or her money and decides to open up a pillow manufacturing business or a comforter business, as somebody in my riding has done and has been established, quite frankly, for the past 10 to 15 years.

I want you to put yourself in that person's position when he drives to work every morning and sees a number of different trucks parked on the side of the street, selling pillows and selling comforters. This individual, who has spent $30,000 or $40,000, as I said earlier, and who now has an established business, has overhead and has a number of bills to pay at the end of the month. When you see an individual parked on the side of the street selling the same product, most likely at a cheaper rate, it becomes very frustrating for you.

One of the reasons I agree with the bill is because it regulates. If you regulate and if you give the municipalities the right to regulate, you'll be able as a municipality to govern where these individuals are parked. This particular person, as I said, has invested all his money and his family's money in his business. I think if the bill is passed it will ultimately give, in my particular case, North York the right to regulate, to give out the vendor permits and to establish where that person's going to be parked.

I tell you, this has been a big problem up in my neck of the woods. For this reason, I'm going to support the bill. I think that, as it's a problem in Yorkview, it's a problem in every municipality, big or small. Mr Johnson earlier had talked a little bit about population and how that affects the problem. I could tell you very clearly that while, yes, population does attract vending, I think it's a problem even on some of the streets up north. I think that if we could extend and amend this bill to include all municipalities, that would be great.

While I have spoken briefly about the good point that this brings out and how Yorkview will benefit from it, I must tell you that I'm not sure what this will do about somebody who decides to illegally sell on private property. I'm hoping that when the author of the bill, the member for Oriole, stands up, she will talk briefly about what we can do or what could possibly be done to incorporate some language in the bill that would give municipalities the right to perhaps regulate on private properties. In my riding there is that problem and I think this won't help that particular end of the problem. So I'd like to talk a little bit about how to solve that end of it.

The other area, very quickly, is lotteries. I know that municipalities choose to do their own way of giving out vending permits. I want to put on record that I'm not an advocate of lotteries. I know it's difficult to find a way, a mechanism of giving out the permits, but I'm not sure that putting names in a hat is the best way of dealing with it. I know it's really not something you can deal with through the bill, it's the municipality that deals with it, but I wanted to put that on record for the member.

I don't have much time, Mr Speaker. I think I've pretty much said everything I wanted to.

Mr Gary Malkowski (York East): I am very pleased to be able to participate in the debate in full support of Bill 183. I would like to share a little bit of what I have seen that's happening in terms of vending in the borough of East York: on Bayview in the Leaside area; on Pape Street there's some vending; on Donlands and the small businesses in that area. Also, on O'Connor Drive I have seen some vending happening.

I think that is beneficial for economic development, and I very strongly feel the borough of East York should become more accountable in terms of supervising and watching and promoting the economic development, but also looking at watching this grow and also reducing the red tape so that everyone is accountable.

There was a report on the borough of East York, and the report was from the commissioner of works in the environment. It was April 28, 1993. The report strongly recommended the borough of East York's support for the city of Toronto's application for the special legislation to be enacted on street vending. So obviously, I think, the borough is in strong support.

A lot of constituents of mine are people who are vendors, and the feedback that I've received from the constituency is that it would be beneficial to have this kind of legislation. So therefore I think this is an appropriate place where members can collect and talk about the legislation. It's, I think, very simple. It's not going to cost a lot and yet it still promotes and encourages small business, and it attracts people into the area from big and small businesses. I think the borough of East York talks about the concern of transportation and the concern of health and safety, but many constituents really enjoy that option of going to vendors within the borough.

Therefore I would like to give my full support to Bill 183 for the reasons that I've just talked about and the feedback that I have gleaned from my constituents in the riding. I would just say congratulations to the member for Oriole for raising this issue in the House.

Mr Drummond White (Durham Centre): I'd like to congratulate the member for Oriole on taking the initiative in bringing forth this bill. Certainly, on behalf of the government and the Ministry of Municipal Affairs, I know that we have no objections to the bill. I think it makes some deal of sense. We have a jurisdictional issue with Toronto and Metro, but overall I think what should be brought forth is the issue that while we're talking about regulation of street vendors, we're not talking about prohibition of street vendors, which is what is occurring right now.

Without those powers to regulate, the municipalities are forced to prohibit, to stop people from vending on the streets, and of course that regulation is important because those vendors can often interfere with the businesses, with thoroughfares etc. Doing it by regulation, by establishing zones for street vendors, it enables them to have access to the market.

I also would like to comment briefly about the very simple fact that, as my colleague was saying, it's not usual to pass legislation through private members' hour. It certainly has not been the case in the past. However, in this Parliament there has been a virtual flood of legislation. Her friend Mrs Fawcett, the member for Northumberland, and her friend Mr Mahoney, the member for Mississauga West, have passed private members' bills; Mr Turnbull, the member for York Mills, and the member for London North have as well. I believe the member for London North's was the bicycle helmet legislation.

Mr Duignan, the member for Halton North, with preservation of the Niagara Escarpment; Mr Wessenger, the member for Simcoe Centre, with the residential tenants, the trailer park legislation; the member for Durham West with endangered species; Mr Martin, the member for Sault Ste Marie, with the adoption bill; and I believe my friend Mr Rizzo, the member for Oakwood, will be presenting a piece of legislation later this morning as well, again on family law reform. These pieces of legislation are taken very seriously by our Parliament and by our government.

I think it's very commendable that my colleague is speaking about an issue that doesn't even affect her direct riding. Although it has been brought forth by a Metro councillor from her city, it's not something which directly affects her. I think this speaks to how this body, this Parliament, can be used in a non-partisan way and how a ministry, such as the Ministry of Municipal Affairs, can process issues that have no direct political or partisan benefit but rather speak to the benefit of all of our community.

Again I'd like to thank my colleague for her excellent bill and for a good presentation thereof.

Mrs Caplan: I'd like to thank all the members in the House who spoke to the bill that I have presented on behalf of Metropolitan Toronto and the cities in the federation of Metropolitan Toronto, as well as the borough of East York. I'm pleased that I have an opportunity to let the citizens of East York know that I know that they live in the only borough. To the residents of the city of York, I stand corrected; it was a slip of the tongue.

I think we've had a very good debate. I think a number of issues and different perspectives have been raised. I believe, as has been said, that this bill will encourage vending in appropriate locations. It will encourage municipalities to permit vending in places now where they've had to prohibit everywhere as the only way of controlling vending in inappropriate locations.

I think this bill will create a dynamic vitality in our city and that we will see jobs created and economic activity in places which the local municipalities deem appropriate. I think it will also lead to the solving of problems and disputes, and I believe that it will prevent problems simply because you will have a system in place that is respected because it is seen as reasonable.

Not everyone may like the results. Certainly in the lottery system those people who do not receive a lottery are not happy with it, and we have to acknowledge that. The other alternative -- and I want to respond directly -- to a lottery system is a first-in-the-door, take-a-number, stand-in-line kind of system. Under this legislation, municipalities can choose which system they prefer.

I think that ensuring there's fairness in that system is going to be the responsibility of the individual local municipalities. As a former councillor in the city of North York, I believe and I'm confident that the municipalities can design a system that will work in each of the municipalities for their purpose.

There was one issue that was raised that I would like to address -- the member for Yorkview raised it -- and that was the issue of illegal vending on private property. It is true this bill does not deal with that. Certainly in committee of the whole if there are suggestions as to how it could be incorporated, I would be pleased to do that. However, that is a very difficult and thorny issue because there are many private property owners who don't want to have anyone have the ability to do anything on their land except themselves, and they deal with the issue by calling the police or enforcing.

Frankly, I support their right to not have anyone intrude on their land. That's why I have not included in this legislation anything to do with private property. Certainly for some private property owners that is an issue, and they have said, perhaps to the member for Yorkview, that they would like the municipality to be able to incorporate enforcement on their lands as well. Certainly that's a good debate, but my own feeling is that that's a debate for another time and another place, and I don't think it can be incorporated in this legislation without some discomfort for private property owners.

I would also say that the timing of this legislation is crucial, and I'd like to quote, if I can, from a letter that was signed on behalf of Mr Floyd, the commissioner of transportation. He says, "The timing of legislative changes is crucial given that any change within the two-year lottery cycle will be difficult to undertake."

We know that the next lottery in Toronto will be held early in 1995. The bottom line of this letter from Mr Floyd says, "It is essential that the necessary legislative enactments occur prior to the end of December 1994."

I have had communication, as I said earlier, with both Mr Floyd as well as Mr Moscoe, and they have told me that the government is able to meet and accommodate their time line. I've heard support from numerous members on the government benches, and I would hope that Mr Moscoe and Mr Floyd and the municipalities of Metropolitan Toronto will not be disappointed and that this legislation in fact will move forward.

At the end of my time today I'm going to move that this go to committee of the whole, and in committee of the whole, expeditiously, there is room and ability to amend the legislation. I have received a memorandum from Councillor Moscoe with some suggestions from a lawyer by the name of Jeffrey A. Abrams, who is a solicitor for Metropolitan Toronto from their legal department. He has a few suggestions for amendments to the bill.

My intention is to send these to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and if there is a desire that these amendments be included at committee of the whole, I would be pleased to do that. If the ministry has difficulty with the amendments, it's my view that the bill should pass as it is. As we know, the only thing that's ever carved in stone in this building are the names of the members in the wall. There's always the ability in the future to change and amend legislation if it is not working as we hope that it will.

I'd like to thank the member for Don Mills, the member for Ottawa East, the member for Fort York, the member for Scarborough North, the member for Yorkview, the member for York East and the member for Durham Centre for participating in this debate. I believe that we have fully explored the issue in a non-partisan way. I'd like to put on the record that this issue was brought to me by Councillor Howard Moscoe, the Metropolitan Toronto councillor for North York-Spadina, and it was brought to him through discussions with Mr Doug Floyd.

So any congratulations for the raising of this issue I think belong with those people. I have simply put forward the legislation on behalf of those who have identified both the problem and the opportunity.

As I close my remarks, I'd like to repeat again that I think this legislation will give us an opportunity to see jobs created, vending jobs, and appropriate locations decided by the local municipalities. I want to thank the members of this Legislature for their support, and I look forward to speedy passage of the legislation.

The Deputy Speaker: You still have a minute and a half.

Mrs Caplan: While I do have a minute and a half, for those of you who know me, I can probably continue talking, but in fact I have said everything that I'd like to say about the legislation, and I would ask the members of the government caucus if I sit down now if that means we'll get speedier passage of the bill.

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM AMENDMENT ACT, 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT LA LOI PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT DE L'ENFANCE

Mr Rizzo moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 156,

An Act to amend the Children's Law Reform Act / Projet de loi 156, Loi modifiant la Loi portant réforme du droit de l'enfance.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): Pursuant to standing order 96(c)(i), the honourable member has 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Tony Rizzo (Oakwood): The introduction of Bill 156 for second reading presents us with the opportunity to take a close look at the family in times of need. Today's parents and children are finding it increasingly difficult to cope with the complex and challenging world we live in. They're all familiar with the very real threats to family stability: poverty, unemployment, high tax burdens on one hand and the decline of the traditional institutions that families could depend on for spiritual guidance and counselling in the past.

Also in the past, one of the resources that the family could turn to for help and advice was the presence of a grandparent. For many, grandparents provided the family with a source of wisdom and comfort at times of crisis and need. They helped with babysitting and child-rearing, gave advice when needed and often were able to help in times of financial difficulty. I think we would all agree that this is an aspect of family life that we would like to encourage and see continued today and into the future.

It is also fitting, this being the International Year of the Family, that we acknowledge the special relationship between grandparents and grandchildren. While most of us recognize the important role played by grandparents in society, lately researchers and family life advocates have actually confirmed this reality: Grandparents have an important role in responding to the emotional upheavals and needs of their grandchildren, particularly in situations of marital breakdowns.

When things go wrong and families for whatever reason break up, the law that governs access to the children by grandparents is lacking and fails to acknowledge the special relationship that the grandparents should have. Bill 156 deals with the grandparents' rights of access to a grandchild under the Children's Law Reform Act and addresses those shortcomings.

Legislative jurisdiction of custody and access to children is a shared responsibility of the federal and provincial governments. In cases involving divorce, the federal Divorce Act governs the issue. In all other cases, the provincial legislation governs. Instances of provincial jurisdiction would arise, for example, when parents separate but no divorce petition is filed; where parents were never married; where one or more of the parents dies; or when the parents and child are an intact family and a third party seeks access to a child.

With the exception of Quebec, Canadian jurisdictions have been more reluctant than their American counterparts to give special recognition to the grandparent-child relationship. In Quebec and in many states south of the border, access with the grandparents is presumed to be in the best interests of the grandchild unless the contrary is proven. Under the CLRA this is not the case, and no special recognition is given to the grandparent-grandchild relationship. The onus is on the grandparent to show a benefit and prove that access is in the best interests of the child.

Bill 156 would change that by requiring parents and others with custody of children to refrain from unreasonably placing obstacles to personal relations between the children and their grandparents. It would amend

section 21 of the act to mention them specifically, and not just view them as "any other person."

It would include a special reference to the importance of maintaining emotional ties between children and grandparents in subsection 24(2), a list of matters that the court must consider when determining the best interests of the child.

It would, under subsection 24(2.1), ask the court that is considering custody or access to give effect to the principle that a child should have as much contact with each parent and grandparent as is consistent with the best interests of the child.

Finally, it would, under subsection 24(2.2), require a court that is considering custody to take into consideration each applicant's willingness to facilitate as much contact between the child and each parent and grandparent as is consistent with the best interests of the child.

Across Ontario, thousands of grandparents live with the agony of never being able to have contact with their grandchildren. They live with the daily despair of knowing their grandchildren may think that their grandparents no longer love them or want to see them. In my own riding, I have been approached by grandparents who have no recourse when they are cut off from their grandchildren.

It is not too difficult for us to imagine: One parent dies and the surviving parent with custody refuses access to the parents of the deceased spouse because of personal conflict, or a common-law couple with children separates and the custodial parent refuses access to the parents of the non-custodial parent. As the law stands, there is no way for the grandparents denied access to effectively make a case for continued contact with their grandchildren.

Bill 156 will not change the presumption that access by a parent is presumed to be in the best interests of the child. Bill 156 will not take away the parental right to determine the best interests of the child if a parent decides that the child should not have contact with his or her grandparents. It will, however, give a grandparent some recourse before the law and make it harder for a parent to unreasonably deny access.

Children need their grandparents' emotional support in today's complex and often confusing society. Grandparents give children a link to their past, teach them many important things and give them the unconditional love that only they can provide. I call on my colleagues to support this bill and invite your comments and input.

Interruption.

The Deputy Speaker: I'd like to remind the people in the gallery that you have to refrain from applauding.

Mr Robert V. Callahan (Brampton South): It's a pleasure to join in the debate on this bill. I know I've seen at least one set of grandparents around here lobbying for years for this particular type of legislation.

I don't mean to say this in a negative fashion, but it's going to sound that way. It's unfortunate that Mr Rizzo, as a private member, has to bring this forward and that the government did not look at this entire issue in advance of this.

Mr Bob Mackenzie (Hamilton East): Oh, oh.

Mr Gordon Mills (Durham East): Oh, oh.

Mr Ron Hansen (Lincoln): Cheap shot.

Mr Callahan: The other side gets upset by my saying that, but the reality is that we have here in the gallery of the government and in our gallery many seniors who, if this passes today, are going to believe this will suddenly become the legislation of this province. We all know it won't unless the government House leader calls it. We have very scarce time in terms of that ever happening, with only about two weeks maximum left in this session and perhaps a week or two left in the session in the spring before we go to the electorate.

I have to say as well that as I approach my golden years, with my oldest son now married, I expect I will be a grandparent one day, and for that reason I suppose I can speak in great favour of this type of situation.

Having said that, however, I can tell you from 30 years of experience in the courts that custody applications are more fiery than defending an insane murderer. There have been lawyers who have been killed as a result of domestic applications, particularly involving custody. I can tell you that custody raises the emotions of people to a height you have never seen before. It has greater passion than anything else.

Recognizing that fact, we should really be trying to craft a particular type of arrangement which will allow the true interests of the child to be determined in a less acrimonious atmosphere. We did that with the assets under the Family Law Act. We virtually turned the asset decision into a mathematical formula. But we still have people fighting over custody.

It's fine where parents agree to the custody of a child and access to the child and they have a good working relationship with the grandparents, maternal and paternal. But this act attempts to place into the law a situation which may not encompass those situations where there is a battle royal going on between not just the husband and wife, the father and mother of the child, but also perhaps a battle royal going on with the grandparents.

I think that any grandparent who will look at this in a broader fashion will accept the fact that there can be very bad relations between one or other of the parents and the husband or the wife. Of course, what this does is that it injects into the whole dynamic of this process one further obstacle, in a sense, that can create just a longer period of trying to determine the custody of the child and therefore placing the child at risk.

The importance of this, and I think grandparents would certainly recognize this, the importance of the whole custodial situation is to ensure that the child's best interests are looked after. There is no property in children. Even though under the common law and under statute law the mother and father have equal access or equal rights of custody to the child, the common law was wise enough to recognize that there is no property in children. In fact, the judge has an overriding consideration as pater patriens in order to determine an issue of custody in regard to how he sees it or she sees it, forgetting what the parties themselves are trying to say.

If anyone wants to have a real experience, go in and watch a real dog-and-cat fight in a custodial battle. You watch this little kid or these kids sitting there crying because they've had a breakup of a marriage, and these people are fighting; I guess the classic example would be a mother and father at either end of the child, each of them pulling one arm one way or the other.

What we have to do is to craft a piece of legislation and recognize that this act that is being presented by the member does not change the legislation dramatically, but we have to endeavour to craft legislation that will in fact encourage the same type of non-acrimonious resolution of the issue of custody as we have done with some success with reference to family assets and support. I suggest, and this is not a partisan crack at all, that the legislators of this province have not applied their minds to that very important issue in seeing that does happen.

The reason it's important is the fact that children have the right to expect that legislators will craft a piece of legislation that will not simply give rights to parents or grandparents, but will provide an atmosphere within which those children will not come out of it battle-scarred and believing that either one parent or the other is terrible or that their grandparents are terrible because of whatever the circumstances are that applications have to be made for custody or access. I suggest to you that this is the issue that has to be determined, and it's the issue that if it's not determined, I suggest you're going to leave a lot of fractured young people in this province after the fact.

We're seeing today that the family breakdown is significant. We're seeing the divorce rate at an ever-increasing demand. We're seeing grandparents perhaps who are disenchanted with the person their daughter or son marries, and that does -- and I think the grandparents in the gallery would have to admit it -- create problems.

That may be because they don't like the person they married, it may be because there are differences in religious background or whatever, but if that does occur and if you have a problem in the house where the parents say, "Look, we don't want to participate with either of our parents for the moment; we want the stability of being able to love our child and raise our child," that may very well create the situation where if you pass this act in its present form, simply giving further rights to other groups, what you do is open the floodgates to allow an application to be made to simply put more pressure on young people than there is now.

What I say finally is, I have concerns that this has not been researched enough in order to really look at the issue as I've stated, and I'm not going to repeat myself. The major issue is the child and that's what we should be addressing. The interests of parents or grandparents, as admirable as they are -- and I certainly subscribe to the fact that grandparents should have a loving relationship with their grandchildren, should not be denied access to them in the perfect situation, the perfect scenario. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world; we live in a world where litigation is becoming more and more apparent. The children should not be the subject of that litigation.

This Legislature owes a responsibility to grandparents and to mothers and fathers and, most specifically, the children to ensure that we craft a piece of legislation that appropriately deals with the issue of ensuring that those children, who have already suffered a breakup of a marriage, will be able to have the emotional stability to grow up as good citizens of this province, emotionally sound and able to enter into a loving relationship.

I reserve the balance for my friend.

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): I welcome this opportunity to provide a few comments on this private member's bill,

An Act to amend the Children's Law Reform Act, that has been brought to our attention by the member for Oakwood.

I want to congratulate the member for Oakwood for attempting to address a weakness in Ontario's law reform act with respect to acknowledging the special relationship between grandparents and their grandchildren. I'm a grandparent eight times over and I treasure the relationship that I have with my grandchildren.

Briefly, private member's Bill 156 would emphasize the importance of children's relationships with their parents and grandparents, require parents and others with custody of children to refrain from unreasonably placing obstacles to personal relationships between the children and their grandparents.

It would also make amendments to specifically permit grandparents to make custody and access applications; make amendments to refer specifically to the importance of maintaining emotional ties between children and grandparents; it would require a court that is considering custody or access to give effect to the principle that a child should have as much contact with each parent and grandparent as is consistent with the best interests of the child; it would require a court considering custody or access to consider each applicant's willingness to facilitate as much contact between the child and each parent and grandparent as is consistent with the best interests of the child.

Several of my caucus colleagues -- like the member for Oakville South, the member for Lanark-Renfrew and the member for Burlington South -- and I have constituents who are grandparents who, through death or divorce, do not have access to the grandchildren they love and cherish. I know one who has been through 11 lawyers, spent more than $20,000, and applied to numerous courts in an attempt to have some access to her three grandchildren.

Her daughter died after a battle with cancer when the youngest was less than one year of age. She returned home from the graveside alone and within days her son-in-law had another woman move into his home and was denying the grandmother access to her grandchildren.

The youngest child was run over by a transport truck after climbing out of his father's truck while the father was in a bar. The grandmother has saved and paid for the surviving children's education -- $13,000 for one and $9,000 for the other -- and sent cards and money to them on holidays and birthdays.

Last March the grandmother was denied access to them forever. It was felt the children, 14 and 20 years of age, could make up their own minds whether or not they wished to see their grandmother, but I ask you, how could they make up their own minds? They have not known their grandmother since they were infants. They were never given a chance to know her, to love her, or to learn from her.

As a grandparent who cherishes the relationship with my grandchildren, I support this private member's bill because if it can take some obstacles out of the way, it's a great plus.

I know of a family which was separating over a six-year-long divorce battle. The three children were not allowed to see one of the spouses for five years. Is that right? I think not. If this bill in any way will help solve that problem that we have in this province -- I see so many divorces taking place where one spouse is adamantly at the other; the children are in between. I say to those spouses who are continually condemning their other spouse that they are condemning 50% of that child who they are saying is theirs.

It's important when we take this whole aspect of what has taken place with regard to divorce and when we look at society today, the problems that we're having in society are a part of all of this. To give the grandparents the rights that I think they should have to be able to love and cherish those grandchildren is so important.

The other aspect that I often wonder is how many lawyers in this province have caused some of the problems that parents have, that people have. Instead of trying to tell them, "Don't talk to your spouse," I think they should be trying to get them together, because not all people really want to separate, because I think the attitude should be when you first were married there was a reason you wanted to get married and I don't think there should be any reason that you want to be separating. I think there should be an emphasis placed on the availability of trying to keep people together.

I have a feeling that perhaps some of our legal profession is the cause of some of the problems that we have.

I commend the member for Oakwood for bringing this bill forward, for the debate that's taken place here today. Perhaps there could be another date when we have more debate, because the aspects of those children are so important.

Mr David Winninger (London South): I can't imagine a caring and reasonable member in the House who would oppose grandparents having access to grandchildren where it's in the best interests of the children. For that reason, I too applaud the spirit with which the member for Oakwood has brought forward this bill, to highlight this concern that grandparents have that their access to their grandchildren whom they've formed a close relationship with and love not be disrupted.

I also agree with the comments of the member for Simcoe East. Too often family law matters become litigious, contentious. They're emotionally draining. I think it's an indication of the need for very early intervention in matrimonial proceedings to ensure that the level of the proceedings doesn't escalate to the point of nastiness, the point of no return. That's the sort of thing we need to avoid through early mediation, arbitration, what you will.

On the other hand, I have to say quite candidly that the present Children's Law Reform Act does in fact allow any person to apply for custody or access. "Any person" has been interpreted by the courts to include grandparents but can also include other persons such as step-parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, adult siblings and even non-relatives.

Under our act, which is comparable to all other legislation and in fact goes further than all other legislation in Canada except perhaps Quebec, there's an absolute right to bring an application for custody before the courts, unlike the federal Divorce Act, which is a little more problematic because grandparents would have to seek permission in order to apply for access under the federal Divorce Act.

But certainly under our legislation, grandparents have an absolute right to apply for access to the children, but it's always subject, as is the case where any applicant applies for custody or access, to the best interests of the child.

What better yardstick do we have to measure the appropriateness of access to a child than the best interests of the child? It's a common misapprehension among parents, for example, that they have a right to access to the child, when the fact is it's really the child's right of access to the parent that the court is upholding because what's in the best interests of the child is child-centred. So no one has an absolute right to access, no one has an absolute right to custody, but the best interests of the child has proven to be the best measure by which we judge access and custody.

The Children's Law Reform Act presently requires the court to consider the love, affection and emotional ties between the child and each person claiming custody or access. While no one wishes to diminish the worth of the ties between grandparents and children, we have to adjudge them in the same way we adjudge other family members' right to access, and that, in the end, is based on the best interests of the child.

Mr Steven Offer (Mississauga North): Let me say how pleased I am to join in the debate on this particular piece of legislation. Let me say, at the outset, that I've had the occasion of talking about this particular issue over a number of years and I think that there are some in the gallery today who recognize some of those earlier debates.

I think a bill such as this is one which truly should go to a committee stage in this Legislature, where one can take a look at some of the very specific aspects in the legislation and determine what their impact is going to be. So I must say that I would be certainly very concerned if a piece of legislation such as this would not have the opportunity of going to a committee of the Legislature whereby there would be some public hearings and where we can hear some input from those who are emotionally attached to the legislation as well as those who can provide some significant legal advice as to what the impact might be.

I think we can deal with this particular piece of legislation in a very legalistic, dotting of the i's, crossing of the t's approach. But I think what is also important is that we recognize the emotion behind the words and that there are people in this province, grandparents, who feel in many ways shut out from the process in and around the legislation. I think that we have to be conscious of that and we have to be sensitive to that.

I must say, though, as I speak, there are some concerns I do have with the legislation and let me say right at the outset that there are provisions in this legislation with which I do have some significant concerns. When you read the legislation, when you read the current Children's Law Reform Act, what we are talking about in the bill is that a person who has custody of a child shall not unreasonably place obstacles to personal relations between the child and the child's grandparents.

At the outset people would say, "Well, of course, that sounds wonderful." The concern I will tell you -- and Mr Speaker, I know that I'm supposed to address my concerns to you, but I am looking to those in the gallery -- is that we have to recognize that in many cases when we are looking at the Children's Law Reform Act and other pieces of legislation, we are not talking about a custody application or access which is in any way, shape or form amicable. We are usually in a litigious, very difficult situation.

When that is the case, when we have, in many cases, warring parties, we must be very careful that the words of the legislation don't operate against the best interests of the child. I do not suggest for a moment that that is anyone's purpose; of course not. But sometimes, if we don't take a very hard look at the legislation, there are impacts and implications which we just didn't recognize and fully appreciate.

I take a look and use this first

section of the bill, because we have to recognize that it is actions which have been taken after a custody order has been granted. In other words, a judge has already decided what is in the best interests of the child. A judge has taken a look at the child, has listened to the child, has listened to all those in and around the situation and has made an order, and I very much believe that those orders must be embraced as being in the best interests of the child.

I get concerned about any

section in any legislation, not just here but anywhere else, which tries to erode a judge's order which is made in the best interests of the child. I know we don't want that to happen, but I sometimes think that maybe a very strict reading of this

section could in some way erode a judgement which has already been made in the best interests of the child.

We of course want to make certain that the relationships between a child and his or her parents and his or her grandparents are as best as well nurtured and continued, and it doesn't just apply to parents and/or grandparents but to others as well. I think that there are many who believe that that type of relationship is important to the growth and wellbeing of the child.

We have to be very careful in terms of legislation that the words do not have an impact that runs contrary to the purpose, so I have some significant concerns with this particular

section of the bill. That is why I believe the bill should move to the committee stage, that it should be moving from this reading to the committee stage whereby we can get more information to make certain that we do not pass a piece of legislation which runs contrary to the best interests of the child.

What we want to do is make certain we have a piece of legislation which has as its paramount purpose the best interests of the child and make certain in meeting that interest that persons such as parents, grandparents and others have a full opportunity of maintaining ongoing relationships with the child.

I think that there are some questions in and around some of the sections of the particular legislation and I'm hopeful that they might be cured at the committee stage. I think this is an extremely important issue that many people in this Legislature and out have devoted many, many years of their life to, and I look forward to the continuing debate.

Mr Cameron Jackson (Burlington South): I'm pleased to be able to rise in the House today and to participate in the debate on Bill 156, and I want to commend the member for Oakwood. In my nine and a half years in this chamber, this chamber has only to my knowledge had three occasions to discuss this very specific issue about grandparents' access rights in Ontario. I have had occasion to participate in each of those debates but I also had the privilege of examining the commentary and to determine in part why there's been such little progress in this legislation.

My colleague in the Conservative caucus made reference to the fact that both the former member for Oakville South, Terry O'Connor -- members will remember him in this House -- and the new mayor of Markham, the former member for Markham, Mr Cousens, tabled specific, focused bills on amendments to various legislation, including the Children's Law Reform Act, in order to improve, strengthen and acknowledge grandparents' rights.

I was intrigued by the commentary by the first speaker from Brampton from the former Liberal government who expressed concern about, "All you need to do is talk to your own Attorney General." I want to remind the House that back on April 26, 1988, the then Attorney General, Ian Scott, tabled a substantive bill dealing with access and custody.

Without getting into the politics of what happened, it's a gross oversimplification but it's clear in terms of family law reform in this province that when the government made concessions to women in terms of legislation for SCOE, support and custody orders enforcement, there was this resultant tradeoff with the disproportionate number of men who don't have access to their children with the Children's Law Reform Act amendments which Mr Scott got in.

Just at the outset, I found the whole process offensive that we were sort of gender-trading with children on the table, and clearer legal minds and social historians will have a field day with the last decade that we've wasted in this area without really resolving the issue for grandparents' rights.

When I revisited my notes from the day I was in the House, I noticed that the then leader of the official opposition, Bob Rae, had a lot to say about this when Ian Scott tabled it in the House. This may be enlightening to the member for Oakwood, but Bob Rae said, I'm quoting from Hansard of April 26, 1988, and the leader of the official opposition:

"I must confess to being continually troubled by an effort on his part," meaning the Liberal Attorney General, "to legislate reasonableness in this very difficult question of access." He went on to say, "I hope very much that the Attorney General will agree that this bill is something that should be discussed widely in the House and should be referred to committee."

I want to say that when Bob Rae was in opposition, he clearly was saying, "I don't have much confidence in the unreasonableness

section of this bill," which Mr Rizzo has put into the legislation. It's the same clause that Terry O'Connor and Don Cousens put in their legislation, but Bob Rae has already indicated his concern about that clause, and perhaps that's one of the reasons this is not government legislation, but in fact a private member's hour.

My colleague Mr Cousens on January 4, 1989, made reference in what I thought was an impassioned speech on behalf of grandparents when he went on to suggest, "I have to look at the business of highlighting the importance of grandparents, especially the parents of those who do not have custodial rights of children." He went on to say, "I do not think we understand the agony that has gone on in the hearts and minds and families of grandparents."

If you go through the stages of a marital breakup, and he had specific examples that he wanted to talk about -- in this case in Hansard he said the grandparents became the neutral ground on which the child was placed until the parents had finished their fighting over custody, and after four months of being resident and being raised by the grandparents, the child was removed by court order and the grandparents never, ever saw that child again. But clearly my colleague Mr Cousens was speaking up, as Mr Rizzo is today, on their behalf.

I then want to remind members of the House that this issue resurfaced on December 7, 1989, and that's when the member for Etobicoke-Humber, Mr Henderson -- and I want to place this in context, because I wish the Liberal member hadn't taken the cheap shot at the government, because it's the same cheap shot that could and therefore must be labelled at the former Liberal government.

Here we had an Attorney General, Ian Scott, who wasn't prepared to make these amendments, and Mr Henderson, wallowing in the back benches of the government, brought forward a resolution which made specific reference to the rights of grandparents and access rights. So it seems that this is a process that continues to go on and it's not being dealt with.

The first NDP Attorney General of this province in its history, Mr Hampton, who is currently a member of the House, spoke on that day at length, and I want to quote from his debate and his contribution to the singular efforts of Mr Henderson as a private member with his own government. I'll quote from the member for Rainy River:

"Grandparents also figure in this calculation. I want to say to the honourable member that I do not think this is the way to go for grandparents either. I think there is an option for grandparents. There is a way the existing law could be amended so that grandparents would receive some recognition. As it is, the Children's Law Reform Act basically says that anyone is entitled to custody of a child and access to a child if it is in the best interests of a child."

He goes on to talk about, "All one needs to do, I think, is to put into the Children's Law Reform Act a clause that creates a rebuttable presumption, a clause that could say it would be presumed to be in the best interests of the child that grandparents have access to the grandchildren, but it would be a rebuttable presumption."

Now, I want to pause there because clearly that is what Mr Rizzo has in his bill, that was what the Attorney General for two and a half years in this province under an NDP government had publicly stated, and yet Mr Rizzo has been relegated to bringing forward a private member's bill. Mr Hampton, who went on to become the Attorney General, said for the record, as I say to the honourable member:

"I do not think this resolution measures up to the social policy issues that really have to be dealt with here, so I will oppose it and I expect that many of my colleagues who I have spoken to about it on numerous occasions will be opposing it as well."

For the record, that motion was defeated by this House with a specific reference to grandparents' rights.

Given that we have heard in debate in this illustrious chamber a very clear and detailed speech by the now Premier of the province, Bob Rae, with respect to the fact that this should go immediately to a committee of the House and be debated widely, I'd like to know if the Premier supports that today with his member's piece of legislation.

Very clearly for the record, we also hear from the Premier that on this whole question about unreasonableness, which is the test which is being placed in this bill, the Premier has serious legal questions and doubts in his mind. We hear from the Attorney General of the day, Mr Hampton, who had two and a half years in order to bring in this legislation and chose not to, but we clearly have his reasons in Hansard as to why he's not prepared to go that far.

I want this information on the record because, quite frankly, the issues involved here are to a degree complex but they are simple if we consider a simple principle that, in the delicate issue of personal relations, grandparents do not have the right to access to children that they would like to have and that they deserve to have and that we should be seeking in a public forum, through committee, opportunities to assist them.

Mr Mills: It is a pleasure to rise in support of my colleague's bill, Bill 156,

An Act to amend the Children's Law Reform Act. I'm not speaking this morning as a lawyer, as an expert on this legislation, nor am I going to get into bashing either of the other governments about what they did and what they didn't do when they were in office. What I'm going to talk about is personal. I am a grandfather of several children and I'm going to bring that perspective into this debate here this morning.

I have always thought that there's something wrong with a system whereby a couple get married and they enjoy a relationship that includes grandparents and then suddenly that relationship goes sour, and because of some court order or something that's done by law, those grandparents are then excluded, sometimes forever, from ever having contact with their grandchildren again. I think that's awfully sad.

I know in my own instance I feel that my wife and I interact very well with our own grandchildren in the crises in their lives. I know that we get phone calls and they come over and they talk issues through that are troubling them and we most often are able to resolve them. In fact my children come to me and say: "How come you've got all the answers now? When we were your children, how come you never had these answers or this wonderful philosophy that you've got on life now?" That philosophy, that learning comes about through living a long time.

I know that there are some technical details from a law point of view about this and about the courts and all that, but I'm prepared to support this on the merits as it is placed before us today, that is, that grandparents, in my opinion, do have a right to access their grandchildren and they do have a right and they do play a great psychological role in the way their lives develops.

Now I'm going to go across the Atlantic Ocean and we're going to go to London. We all know and we've read in the paper the tremendous difficulties that the children of the royal family are having. I think it's a well-known fact that the person that they turn to most for advice and as a mentor is the Queen Mother, so we have a precedent at perhaps the highest level in the land --

Interjection.

Mr Mills: My colleague from Ottawa Centre says, "Well, that hasn't worked out all that good." But nevertheless, it's a well-known fact that His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales often goes to discuss his problems with the Queen Mother, his grandmother.

I know that two of my colleagues want to add to this debate. Without much ado, I'm going to sit down and let them have that opportunity, although I could go on for quite a while about what I see as the merits of my colleague's bill.

Mr Drummond White (Durham Centre): I rise with some interest and excitement to speak to this issue because I have for many years worked with families who are in the process of breaking up. That process of breaking up, that process of separation, is one where the children's interests are often lost because a couple is in a fight, a division in that small family. When that division occurs, their extended family become warring camps, one side against another. None of those camps can easily see what the best interests of the child are.

If separation and divorce are hell, certainly the family court and that process only serves to stoke that hell. Rarely, in my experience, is the larger family considered, and that larger family, when a separation occurs, becomes directly involved with those children. Those children whose parents are often subsumed with their conflict with each other are nurtured and supported by that wider family and by our community as a whole. As our province and our community as a whole move to assist children like these who are in these turmoils, it only behooves us to look with a broader and more intelligent, more sensitive eye, to their needs.

I think my friend's bill speaks to this, because frankly, grandparents are important. You think of a nuclear family splitting up and let's say, typically the mother leaving the father or the father leaving, but that mother and children being there on their own. We think of a smaller family and yet what really happens is that that mother often is much more supported and in much more frequent contact with her parents and her broader family than ever before. Often she and her children are living with them or directly financially supported by them.

We have to recognize that there are many different family forms, and the more that we recognize the extent and the richness of family life in our province, the more those children will be supported. It is not an issue of the grandparents' right to access; it's a right of the children to have the widest possible level of support, nurturing and affection they possibly could.

When I hear of doors being closed, of windows being shut for those children, there has got to be a very good reason for that to occur. I think my friend's bill speaks to opening doors, to allowing more people in to support those children, people who would otherwise be shut out often by the warring camps that are established in a divorce or separation situation. I think it behooves us to open these doors when families are going through this very difficult process within the courts, because the courts, after all, are the final arbiter.

In these times, when we have so many families going through that process of separation and divorce, somewhere in their lives they can have that model brought forth to them of an opening of the establishment of a greater level of contact for those children. They are the paramount issue here. I would like to again compliment my friend and I look forward to hearing the comments of my friend from Ottawa Centre.

Ms Evelyn Gigantes (Ottawa Centre): It's good to have this debate here this morning, and I welcome the introduction of this bill by my colleague so that we can discuss the issues which he's raised in this forum.

I think that we all understand that the issues are issues which arise when families are in turbulence and turmoil and terrible trouble, because that's the point at which families go to court. Families can choose to take different paths. Families can separate among their membership. Families can come to agreements outside of formal undertakings under our legislation, and in many cases families do that, but when they get to court, that's when these issues arise.

I think that in Ontario the discussion we've had over the years about what should be foremost in the minds of the people responsible for making decisions in such cases is the welfare of the child, and I think that has been spoken to quite eloquently by members of my party and parties opposite. It's a very fundamental part of our approach to what happens when a family is in real trouble and the law is called in, as it were, and we say that what happens in terms of the children is before the judge, on the principle that the welfare of the child is the determining factor.

The issue that has been raised in the introduction of the private member's bill we're dealing with this morning, Bill 156, is, is there a place to instruct the judge on questions of access and custody that the interests of the grandparents should be involved? We can express it either as the interests of the grandparents or as the interests of the child in the relationship with grandparents.

If we express it in terms of the interests of the child in relationship to the grandparents, I think that what is currently before courts in Ontario under our existing child welfare legislation is the interests of the child, and that will be considered fully and that will include the interests of the child in relationship to the grandparents.

There are many people in Ontario who over the years have decided, in one case or another, that the decisions made in our courts and made on the principle of the interests of the child have not been well made, and there are grandparents among those groups. But I think for us now to take Bill 156 forward and have discussion in committee of the whole will bring forth a deeper discussion of these issues and I am prepared to support it on those grounds.

The Deputy Speaker: The member for Oakwood has two minutes for his reply.

Mr Rizzo: Mr Speaker, I don't know if I could give a few seconds of my time to my colleague from Yorkview. Could I?

The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? Agreed. The member for Yorkview.

Mr George Mammoliti (Yorkview): Thank you, the member for Oakwood. Very, very quickly, we talk about the interest of the children and it should always be the interest of the children, but I'm a firm believer that the interests of the children, in most cases, is to see their grandparents. I think that in this place sometimes we lose track of a lot of things in passing legislation, and we worry a little bit too much about technicalities and perhaps what precedent this might cause.

I think if it sets any precedent, it's a precedent worthwhile setting in that that child will probably grow up in seeing their grandparents and living a wonderful life, and learning the morals and the values that grandparents can only teach.

Mr Rizzo: I want to thank first all the members of this House who participated in this debate and particularly the members for Simcoe East, Brampton South, London South, Ottawa Centre, Mr Cam Jackson, Steven Offer, and the members for Durham East and Durham Centre.

I appreciate their contribution to this particular bill, but I want to emphasize in the last 20 seconds that are left for me that this bill was addressed really to the best interests of the child, but what this bill is saying is that there is a big difference between being grandparents and being any other person. Grandparents are your parents' parents and so they are family, they are blood and they are the ones who are closest to the children after the parents.

The Deputy Speaker: The time provided for private members' public business has expired.

MUNICIPALITY OF METROPOLITAN TORONTO AMENDMENT ACT (STREET VENDING), 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR LA MUNICIPALITÉ DE LA COMMUNAUTÉ URBAINE DE TORONTO (VENTE DANS LA RUE)

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): We will deal first with ballot item number 71, standing in the name of Mrs Caplan. If any members are opposed to a vote on this ballot item, will they please rise.

Mrs Caplan has moved second reading of Bill 183,

An Act to amend the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto Act. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Pursuant to standing order 94(k), the bill is referred to the committee of the whole House.

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM AMENDMENT ACT, 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT LA LOI PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT DE L'ENFANCE

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): We will now deal with ballot item number 72, standing in the name of Mr Rizzo. If any members are opposed to a vote on this ballot item, will they please rise.

Mr Rizzo has moved second reading of Bill 156,

An Act to amend the Children's Law Reform Act. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Pursuant to standing order 94(k), the bill is referred to the committee of the whole House. Agreed?

Mr Tony Rizzo (Oakwood): Mr Speaker, can I ask permission to send this bill directly for third reading? Unanimous consent.

The Deputy Speaker: Agreed? It's not agreed. There's no consent at all.

Mr Rizzo: Can I ask for it to be sent to the justice committee?

The Deputy Speaker: Is the majority in favour? Those in favour will please stand. Those opposed will please stand.

The majority of the group is not in favour; therefore the bill is going to committee of the whole.

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Just to clarify for myself and those who are interested in my bill, it automatically goes to committee of the whole; is that correct?

The Deputy Speaker: Yes.

All matters having been debated, I will now leave the chair and the House will resume at 1:30 of the clock this afternoon.

The House recessed from 1158 to 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

RAY TWINNEY

Mr Charles Beer (York-Mackenzie): Last night in Newmarket several thousand people gathered to pay tribute to Ray Twinney, mayor of Newmarket. For the last several months Ray has been fighting a courageous battle with cancer. The purpose of the tribute in honour of his retirement was to rename the Newmarket Recreation Complex as the Ray Twinney Recreation Complex.

Ray was born in November 1935 and raised and educated in Toronto. He arrived in Newmarket in 1960, entering politics in East Gwillimbury in 1965. In 1970 Ray was elected to Newmarket town council as a regional councillor, serving in that capacity until 1978. In 1979 he was elected mayor of Newmarket and has been returned as mayor each successive council term to the present, making him Newmarket's longest-serving mayor to date, a total of over 15 years.

Being fond of local organized sport, Ray Twinney owned and/or co-owned and operated many successful local teams, including the Newmarket Ray's Fastball, Legion Ray's Oldtimers Hockey and the Newmarket Flyers Junior Hockey teams.

In 1988 the dream of a professional class community recreation centre became a reality under his mayoral leadership. Newmarket's recreation complex was constructed, becoming the venue for many local sporting events, including the home to AHL and OHL hockey.

I would like to thank Ray for his lengthy public service on behalf of the residents of Newmarket and the numerous accomplishments he achieved during his 29 years in office. I know everyone will join with me in wishing Ray, his wife, Thelma, and his family the very best for a full recovery.

FRED HEALEY

Mr Leo Jordan (Lanark-Renfrew): I would like to pay tribute to Fred Allan Healey, who passed away suddenly on Friday, November 18, as the result of an accident. As we pay our respects to Mr Healey, I would like to acknowledge his tremendous legacy in service to his community, to his province and, above all, his devotion to family.

Fred was born and raised on a century farm in North Elmsley township, county of Lanark, on which he and his son Brent operated a dairy farm and were members of the Lanark county milk committee.

Fred served on the township council from 1973 and was reeve from 1977 to 1988. He was elected warden of Lanark county in 1983. As warden, Fred was instrumental in the development of the new county administrative building and is remembered for his many successful county projects.

He was a valued member of the Smiths Falls Rotary Club, Rideau Valley Conservation Authority and St Andrew's United Church at Port Elmsley.

On the provincial level, Fred served as director and vice-president of the Ontario Good Roads Association and was recently re-elected as a director to the Ontario Milk Marketing Board as the representative for Lanark, Renfrew and Carleton counties. In this capacity, Fred helped revamp agricultural education in the classroom by creating dairy educators.

Ontario Milk Marketing Board president John Core said, "Mr Healey always thought about dairy policy in terms of how it affected the individual farmer."

I will close by offering my deepest condolences to the family: Jean, Quentin, Alannah, Mariah, Laurie, Chito, Brent and Leona. "He will be missed," said his daughter Jean. "Family was always first."

WASTE DISPOSAL

Mr Ron Hansen (Lincoln): Read my lips: No new toxic waste incinerators. In 1980, the Bill Davis government decided that Ontario needed a permanent toxic waste treatment facility and Ontario Waste Management Corp was born. Since then, taxpayers have shelled out more than $130 million studying OWMC's harebrained scheme to burn and bury toxic waste in the Niagara Peninsula.

When West Lincoln was chosen as the preferred site in 1985, the residents of Niagara immediately declared war on OWMC, and I was right there with them. In 1989, EA hearings began. We finally got a decision yesterday, and it was just what we were hoping for. The consolidated hearing board said no to the OWMC's toxic monstrosity.

That doesn't mean we're out of the woods yet. Appeals can still be filed with cabinet within the next 28 days. If that happens, I guarantee my knuckles will be raw from knocking on cabinet's door to tell them that Ontario cannot afford to waste $300 million on OWMC's toxic white elephant and to remind them that there's overwhelming evidence that it's not even needed. Since 1980, industry has learned to reduce toxic waste through recycling, and in the meantime new Canadian technologies have been developed that would allow industry to treat toxic waste onsite.

Not long ago, we banned the incineration of garbage. Why not toxic waste too? It looks like OWMC's monster is dead, but I'm going to wait until the appeal period is over before I dance on its grave. Until then, I'll be a sentry at my post on the issue.

In closing, Jim Green, West Lincoln's town crier, often says, "God save the Queen and God help West Lincoln."

LEADER OF THE THIRD PARTY

Mrs Yvonne O'Neill (Ottawa-Rideau): Over the weekend I was stopped in my tracks to read about the unveiling of a new politician in Ontario. He's the kinder, gentler Mike Harris.

It sure looked like Mike Harris was on his very own road to Damascus when he was converted from Mike the Slasher to Mike the Bleeder. But don't be fooled: Mike the Bleeder is still Mike the Slasher at heart. He's just wearing a new image. Underneath he's still Attila the Un, as he liked to call himself a couple of months ago.

Mike the Bleeder is going to fight the deficit by attacking those who are most vulnerable, just like Mike the Slasher. Mike the Bleeder is going to take away money from the more than half a million children whose parents are on welfare. Over half of these children are under 10. Mike the Bleeder is going to force parents on welfare with four- and five-year-olds to return to work. All this with no real plan for job creation.

I ask, is Mike's conversion due to a change of heart or direction, or is it a recognition of reality, an acknowledgement that he has run into a blank wall at the polls?

LONG-TERM-CARE REFORM

Mr Cameron Jackson (Burlington South): I want to share with all members of the House a letter sent to me and to my Conservative colleagues.

"As a senior of 83 years and fairly frail just now, I have had a great deal of TV-watching time and have been impressed by the amount of energy and effort you and your party members have put in both in the committee sittings and on the floor of the House on behalf of frail seniors and disabled persons. When I couldn't watch during the day, I tried to get the program at night.

"I will never understand just how we have been so hoodwinked by the NDP government. They talked about wanting to hire only from not-for-profit organizations. The VON, the Red Cross and others have always been not-for-profit. I only wish it had come up at the beginning of the committee hearings that the MSAs really mean unionization for the workers.

"You and the others who have worked so hard to get the clauses re 80-20 changed deserve so much praise for your efforts, I just had to write and tell you how much it was appreciated not just by caregivers but many seniors who had nothing whatsoever to do with the Senior Citizens' Consumer Alliance for Long-Term Care Reform."

That's signed, "Sincerely, Mrs Margaret Elliott."

I read this letter into the Hansard record on behalf of the Ontario seniors who feel that Bob Rae and his government are not listening. Bill 173 is too vital and too important to our seniors. Bob Rae should have amended Bill 173 to thank Ontario seniors and their years of contributions to our society rather than thanking the labour unions for their years of contributions to the NDP socialist party.

GUN CONTROL

Mr Larry O'Connor (Durham-York): I rise today to invite my colleagues to a press conference next week, a press conference that is on gun control as a public health issue. I think they'll find that it's a very educational session at that press conference, one that Dr Isaac Sakinofsky, the head of suicide studies at the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry, will be at and one that Dr Brian Rowe, who is the research director of the Sudbury General Hospital, and Kathy Willis, the executive director of Rosewood Shelter, will be at.

The purpose of it is to educate people about gun control and to encourage them to get into the debate. As we enter this debate with the government in Ottawa, we need to make sure that people know exactly what the issue is that we're dealing with.

I want to make sure that my colleagues know that, for example, almost half of the women killed by their partners are shot, and well over the one third for the general population. Most of these are committed in the home of the victim: 85% are committed with an ordinary hunting rifle or shotgun, and 78% of the guns used are legally owned.

The gun lobby is just about exclusively a male-dominated lobby and the rallies are attended in large numbers by men.

I encourage all my colleagues from all sides of the House to attend this, because I think they'll find this is a very educational forum, and I encourage them to get involved in the debate, because gun control really is a health issue.

MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGER

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): The long, exhausting struggle incurred by the residents of the Niagara region in their efforts to have a CAT scanner located in the Niagara region is still a vivid memory for most local residents.

The government has recently announced that it would expand the number of MRIs -- high-tech diagnostic devices that act like enhanced X-ray machines -- in Ontario from 12 to 34, including five more for the planning region that encompasses the Niagara region.

I trust that the government will not involve itself in any unnecessary delays in overseeing the implementation of this resource in the Niagara region, given the dire need for it in the area as well as the preparations that have already been made in anticipation of its arrival.

The St Catharines General Hospital has already drawn up blueprints for the planning and installation of an MRI machine and has actively pursued and hired staff based on their expertise in the field of MRI radiology.

Given the crucial role that MRI technology plays in the diagnosis of soft-tissue ailments related to the brain, the central nervous system and other difficult orthopaedic cases, it is unacceptable that we currently have one MRI machine servicing a designated area of over 1.4 million people.

This current arrangement has produced undue hardships on those who have been in need of these kinds of diagnostic treatments. Patients in the Niagara area have been forced to incur great financial hardships through the purchasing of this treatment in the United States or enduring the long and painful waiting periods for treatment here in Ontario. I call on the Ontario government to act in a caring and expeditious manner.

NURSERY SCHOOLS

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): My statement is for the Premier, and it concerns a letter written to him on October 17 by Mr Robert Evans, trustee, Simcoe County Board of Education. Mr Evans urged the Premier to reconsider the mandating of junior kindergarten.

Mr Evans and I believe we must do the best we can for the children of Ontario. To accomplish this goal, it is our view that nursery schools are preferable to junior kindergarten for the following reasons:

(1) Nursery schools have smaller class sizes to enable closer attention to the children.

(2) A nursery school has one teacher and two other adults, while a junior kindergarten class has one teacher and no other adults.

(3) The nursery school program is a half-day program provided three half-days per week, while many junior kindergarten programs are provided on the all-day, alternate-day system.

(4) In nursery schools the teacher works directly with the parents, while junior kindergartens are supervised by principals, supervisory officers, directors of education and school boards.

(5) Nursery schools can be accommodated economically, while the cost of adding and equipping a junior kindergarten to a school is about $280,000.

(6) It costs about $700 per year to educate a child in nursery school and it costs over $3,000 per year in junior kindergarten.

(7) Many of our schools are overcrowded and it will be difficult to accommodate junior kindergarten classes.

The government's policy of mandating junior kindergarten will result in cuts to the rest of the education system, and the equality of education is sure to decline.

I join with Mr Evans in urging the government to encourage nursery schools rather than mandating junior kindergarten.

CHILD DAY

Mr Mike Cooper (Kitchener-Wilmot): I rise today to share with the members of the Legislature how the Waterloo region is celebrating its first national Child Day on November 20, 1994.

National Child Day is more than an historic commemoration. It's a day for everyone to celebrate children for just being themselves, an opportunity to remember that children need love and respect to grow to their full potential. It's a day to listen to children, to see the world through a child's eyes.

Waterloo region is one of the leading communities in Canada to recognize this new national day for children, and close to 50 different organizations have joined forces to plan a week of celebration and fun activities led by the regional community health department.

The goals in celebrating national Child Day are to raise public awareness about the day and promote everyone's sensitivity to the special care and nurturing all our children need. May I remind the members of this Legislature that we need to recognize national Child Day, but our children need this and much more 365 days a year, every year. We must, as legislators, encourage and promote this every day.

FIREARMS SAFETY AND CONTROL

Mr Peter North (Elgin): My statement is to the Minister of Natural Resources, the Solicitor General and the Attorney General.

Last evening I had an opportunity to attend a community forum in Elgin county, in the village of Rodney, dealing with the issues of firearms and gun control. This meeting was well attended by both men and women and a number of issues were discussed. I want to tell all members that there is great concern in rural Ontario for firearms safety and the regulation of firearms. There is also great concern for a fairness and recognition in those laws and regulations for the many firearms owners who have practised these principles for years.

Firearms owners and rural residents are very disappointed in the fact that this recognition is not apparent in the present firearms acquisition certificate application procedures. They very much wish to see a grandparenting clause included such as there is in Quebec for the firearms owners who have demonstrated their capabilities and responsibility with firearms for many years. This resolution was supported unanimously.

They also were very disillusioned with the ammunition bill and felt that this bill served no real purpose other than a resource for government later in the full registration of firearms. This bill also had no support.

There were also concerns raised about native issues and the concern over the use of high-power weapons and trespass laws. These concerns, however, were not limited to native groups but were related to the enforcement resources for the MNR and the inability to prosecute on charges that are laid and then later dropped. These issues are still of great concern, and the feeling is that the areas of conservation and public safety are still being overlooked in the interim enforcement policy agreement agreed to by the government and native communities.

Finally, there was lengthy discussion about the federal legislation coming forward, and it was clear that there is no support for Mr Rock and the views he is putting forward. People in rural Ontario feel that the pressure from large urban centres to press ahead on gun control does not take into account their concerns and needs and they are extremely upset about this.

I was told that on average 85% of the charges laid under

section 85 of the Criminal Code are plea-bargained.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): The member's time has expired.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

PUBLIC SAFETY

Hon Ed Philip (Minister of Municipal Affairs): I rise to make a statement on behalf of my colleagues the Solicitor General and the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations and myself as Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Later this afternoon, I will introduce for first reading a bill that will help municipalities and police control late-night businesses and make neighbourhoods safer. Because this issue is of such importance, I am hoping the bill will have the all-party support it will need in order to pass during this legislative session.

Let me give the members some background. For several months now, we've been hearing concerns about certain businesses -- and I emphasize only certain businesses -- that operate late at night. We've read reports of shootings in or near after-hours clubs. It is well known that some late-night businesses have become hangouts for drug dealers. People are becoming increasingly concerned about the activities of people going in and out of these businesses.

Last June, my colleague the member for Fort York, Rosario Marchese, introduced an excellent private member's bill to give Metropolitan Toronto greater licensing powers over late-night businesses. That bill would have gone a long way towards helping Metro deal with its problems. This fall, though, a young woman was killed outside an after-hours club in London. It was apparent that the problem was not limited to Metro, and last month the Premier promised quick action.

We've consulted with the police and other enforcement agencies, with municipalities and with community groups. Today's initiative will enable police, municipal agencies and communities to work closely together to prevent activity that presents a real threat to the public. We've expanded considerably Mr Marchese's excellent private member's bill that I referred to earlier.

The legislation I'll introduce later this afternoon will strengthen both liquor licensing and municipal licensing powers. It will increase powers to deal with those businesses that have become the centres of criminal activity, while protecting the rights of legitimate businesses.

Let me take a minute to outline what's in the bill. The bill strengthens police powers under the Liquor Licence Act in a number of ways to allow them to close down illegal "booze cans." In places where it is suspected liquor is being sold illegally, it will allow the police to enter the premises and order the people to leave. It will allow them to seize liquor being sold illegally, the profits from the sale of liquor, and any equipment, such as tables, chairs, restaurant equipment etc, used in the commission of an offence. It will also allow the police or the LLBO employees to revoke a special occasion permit on the spot if liquor laws are being broken.

The bill also strengthens municipal licensing powers in a number of ways. It allows the licensing body to revoke, suspend or refuse issuance of a licence after a hearing and to impose operating conditions on individual licensed establishments, including limiting hours. It will allow courts to close establishments convicted of contravening a municipal licensing bylaw.

It will increase the maximum fine for municipal licensing infractions from a maximum of $5,000 to $25,000 for individuals and $50,000 for corporations and allow a business's equipment to be seized for non-payment of the fines. It will allow for the honesty and integrity of a licensee to be considered as part of the criteria for a licensing decision.

While these measures give municipalities more means, more power if you like, to deal with trouble spots, there are some other things the government intends to do.

The Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations will amend regulations to better control the granting of special occasion permits and to permit information to be shared with police to allow them to take a proactive role in heading off events they have reason to believe will pose threats to public safety in a community. As well, we will encourage better coordination and cooperation among enforcement agencies and community groups to help combat the problem.

I want to thank Michael Thomas of the Toronto East Downtown Residents' Association; Frank Parkhouse, president of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police; Bill Mickle, president of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, and so many others who have given us input and some very solid advice and who were present at the press conference this morning in support of this bill.

The violence and crime that have been associated with late-night businesses have to stop. This legislation and the supporting regulations will make Ontario communities safer. We are giving back communities to the people who live there.

Mr Tim Murphy (St George-St David): I appreciate the opportunity to talk on this issue. I'm always confused and surprised by what it is that eventually motivates this government to finally act. Metro council recognized the crucial importance of this issue in 1990 and, frankly, the situation has gotten worse, not better, since then. My leader has raised this issue in the House, my colleagues have raised this issue in this House, and it seems to show that that's what it takes finally to prod this government into action: to keep pressing, pressing and pressing. I give my colleague, for example, from Lawrence credit for doing that in this House.

There are a series of issues that we need to look at. In this, they're giving police more powers, and I think that's appropriate to do. The question, and what I'd like to hear from the police, is whether they have sufficient resources to do that job. In Metropolitan Toronto, for example, they are over 700 officers short of the complement they need to do the job well. That's what I hear in my community; I'm sure that's what other members are hearing in their communities. Whether they have the resources to do the job is what I'd like to hear from police forces.

We've also heard from some business associations in this province about their concern about some details and aspects of the municipal licensing provisions. We'd like an opportunity to hear them, so here's the commitment that we make. We will work with the government to pass the bill. We, however, want and must have committee hearings. The government on other issues has previously provided committee hearings when appropriate. For example, on the market value assessment bill we sat on Fridays and weekends. We can do that to make sure that we hear what we need to hear from municipalities and businesses across this province, to make sure that crime is reduced.

The key thing is that we have got to make sure that what we pass in this House focuses on deterring the criminals and the bad guys and doesn't unnecessarily impact on the good guys.

Mr Joseph Cordiano (Lawrence): I'd like to add that this is not a partisan debate. In fact, all members of the House would support these initiatives and I think that all members would want their communities to be the safest places in which to live. I think that a community such as mine, which has had to cope with various clubs in it that have been operating in a fashion that would lead to the kind of violence and criminal activity we've seen over the past number of years, looks forward to action taken by this Legislature to bring forward this piece of legislation.

I want to say also, adding to what my colleague has said about committee hearings, I think it's important that we have a quick, speedy committee process -- let's be clear about that -- in an effort to make this legislation the best it can be and in an effort to give municipalities the real clout and the real authority they need to act in this regard.

We need to ensure that the legislation is watertight and sound. I believe that having committee hearings will ensure that. We can do that and get the bill passed before the end of this session. Nothing will get in the way of that. My colleagues support that. I believe that is the only way to ensure good, proper and appropriate legislation is passed and I'm sure that my colleagues in the Conservative Party would agree with me when they also get up and support legislation which would see a strengthening of powers and authority to municipalities to close down these places.

I suppose it would be prudent to add that the police would also be in favour of this legislation, but they would also like to see additional resources allocated to ensuring that communities are safe.

Mr Ron Eddy (Brant-Haldimand): Our leader and the Liberal caucus have called for such legislation to restore the rights and safety of our citizens in many communities across Ontario for years. I chastise the government