ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publl•hed under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 44A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 12 APRIL, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Owens Prmter. Provinctl ot Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT , Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springf ield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Robl in-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 12 April, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: The Petition of the Victoria Curling Club Ltd., praying for passage of

an Act to grant additional powers to the Victoria Curling Club Ltd. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. CLERK: The petition of the Portage Avenue Baptist Church,

an Act to amend

an Act to incorpo rate Portage Avenue Baptist Church. The petition of Major Earl Robinson,

an Act to incorpora te the Salvation Army Catherine Booth Bible College. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Tuxedo. MR. CLERK: The petition of the Steinbach Curling Club, praying for the passing of

an Act gr anting additional powers to the Steinbach Curling Club Ltd. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, the Comm ittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for Radisson, that the report of the comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Commit tees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have several additions or changes in provincial tax comparisons to ta ble, as well as supp lement ary information for legislative review of the Department of Fina nce Estimates. 1621 MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of members to the Galle ry. We have 65 students of Grade 9 standing from the St. Boniface Diocesan High School under the direction of Mr. Bennett. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health.

There are 32 students of Grade 6 standing from the Garson Tyndall School under the direction of Miss Stefansson. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of High ways. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Sherritt Gordon Mines - NEED Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honour abie Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Economic Development.

Has the Minister of Economic Development had any discussions with Sherritt Gordon Mines over their applicaion under the NEED Program to conduct further exploration to prove up the Aggasiz gold deposit which, if proven up, could conceivably give another decade of life to the Town of Lynn Lake? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Economic Develo pment. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, negotiations relating to the NEED Program are generally dealt with by the Mini ster of Labour, and I would defer to her. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I noted with some surprise the report in the paper that the province had not looked favourably on such a request. Nothing has come to me, and to my knowledge, no request has gone to the NEED Advisory Board over this issue. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question then is to the First Minister. It seems as though the future of a town and an industry is at stake here. The government has a program, the NEED Program; neither the Minister of Labour nor the Minister of Economic Development seem to be aware of the application by Sherritt.

My question to the First Mini ster is: Was the First Minister aware of that application and has he had any discussion with Sherritt Gordon concerning that proposal? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Turtle Mountain is presuming an application. MR. B. RANSOM: A supplementary to the First Minister then, Mr. Speak er. Has Sherritt Gordon made an appl ication to the Provincial Gov ernment and the Federal Government under the NEED Program? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Mi nister of Labour, who is responsible pertaining to the NEED Program, has indicated that she is not aware of the receipt of any application.

We'll take that question as one of further notice to doubl e-check to ensure that there has not been an application submitted in the last short period of time. We are not aware of an application having been made. Fox Lake Mine MR. B. RANSOM: A further supplementary to the First Minister. When did the First Minister become aware that the ore body at Lynn Lake would expire by approxi mately 1985 and that the town would then have no further economic base? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, there have been rumours to that effect for quite some time.

I have received no direct information of that nature from the company nor precise reports of same until this past weekend despite the fact there have been rumours of same for some time. MR. B. RANSOM: A further question to the First Minister then, Mr. Speaker. What action did the First Minister take, or any member of his Cabinet take, when they heard rumours which, if true, would certainly mean that the Town of Lynn Lake would be without an economic base? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. Community Colleges Staff and Procedure Changes MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo.

MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise on a matter of House privilege. It's just come to my attention that the Minister of Education has released a news release just moments before the House in which she has announced some fairly major changes in staffing and in procedures at the Community Colleges Division, which include, among other things, the redeployment and retraining of some 38 staff members, dropping of a number of courses, I believe, as many as nine full­ time courses at the community college. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that I believe in doing so, that she has shown a distinct lack of courtesy to members on this side of the House.and indeed, to all Manitobans in not bringing this forward as a release to the House first in Ministerial Statements and in not dealing with ii in a manner so that it could be dealt with in question period. It just happened that the release has come to my attention as we arrive in the House and I believe that the Minister has not dealt with it properly and, I believe that an apology is in order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Since the matter of House privilege upon which the member rose was not fol lowed by a substantive motion, it is not a Matter of Privilege. The Honourable Mem.ber for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: In that case, Mr. Speaker, I wish to question the Minister on the release that she has issued, as I say, in a manner that I do not believe was proper.

My question to the Minister is, having made a rather major policy decision and statement that involves the redeployment and retraining of as many as 38 staff members at the community colleges, why was this not discussed beforehand with the Manitoba Government Employ ees Association? Why did she not give them the courtesy of some notice and forewarning other than, as I understand it, less than 24 hours, and why were they not consulted ahead of time about some matters that deal with some very substantial long-range aspects of the training offered at the Community Colleges Division in Manitoba? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I'l l try and deal with the number of questions that were raised by the member opposite, and if I miss some of the three or four questions that he raised, perhaps he will remind me of what they were and I will be glad to answer them. I think, first of all, he is suggesting that I should have announced a major policy change in the House. I do want to indicate clearly that this is not a major policy change; that we review courses at the colleges all the time and that we are yearly making some course changes. We add new courses and we drop some existing courses.

It isn't a policy change; it is an ongoing activity of educational institutions whose job is to keep pace with the training requirements of the times. don't know - we stopped a number of courses or reduced them last year and there was no problem or no dis cussion of that.

I think in terms of the redeployment and the retraining, we have already had in the House I think full discussion about the intentions and the commitment of the government to have no layoffs with the MGEA, and the people in Red River and in the colleges are members of the MGEA; so that there has been sort of full, I think, notice that we were embarking in all departments on redeployment and some retra ining programs in order to meet the commitm ents that were given previously.

His question about the no involvement and no discussion with the MGEA is totally inaccurate and they will be in a good position to co mm unic ate th at themselves. We have had discussions with them and the Civil Service Commission for the last couple of months. They are in, and will say so for themselves, complete agreement with the options being presented of some redeployment and some examination and some possibil ities of retraining. They are selecting a representative from each community college to sit on a joint retraining planning commit tee. I also want to say that we have a 1622

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 responsibility to change our institutions so we are meeting the technologies of industry in the future, and we don't have money to keep adding new programs. We have to make changes, and that means we have to look at the programs that we are doing and make some tough choices about which have a lower priority for the times and which we can't continue to offer. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speake r, the Min ister has indicated that last year a number of courses were changed and dropped and that no concern was made of it, but I can also indicate that there was no news release issued and there was no dropping of some 38 staff positions. I'd like to know, Mr. Speaker, since she indicates that the Manitoba Government Emplo yees Association has been aware of this for months, is she then saying that Mr. Grant Rodgers , who is quoted in today's paper, an MGE A representative for the affected college employees, has said the union did not find out about the changes until yesterday.

Is she saying that that's incorrect or that Mr. Rodgers is lying? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, Mr. Speaker, I certainly am not saying that it's either incorrect or that the gentleman is lying. I think that he was referring to gett ing information about the specific courses, perhaps. We have had discussions about this option of some deployment and some retraining for some time. They have agreed to sit on a joint commit tee; they have agreed with this option and this method of dealing with the problems.

I believe, and he'll have to speak for himself, that he was dealing specifically with perhaps not knowing exactly which courses or which individuals; but I am also sure they will commun icate clearly that they have been aware of this process and this way of dealing with the issue and that they are in agreement and support the direction, which is a prog ressive move for both the educational institution and the emplo yees. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I think it's one thing to consult ahead of time; it's another thing to give people the opportun ity, having made the decision, to then decide what's going to happen with them. It's a very different thing, Mr. Speaker. My next question to the Minister is: Does she think that it's more important to divert $4.5 million into the Jobs Fund to create make-work short-term positions rather than to allow that money to support full-time training needs for Manitobans who want to go into tech nology and other programs offered at the commun ity colleges? HON. M. HEMPHIL L: Well, Mr.

Speaker, that's exactly what we're doing. It would cost us $1.2 million to continue to offer these courses that we have identified are in the low priority area, because they're low-cost, lo w-enrolment, lo w-e mp loyment. The Federal Government has cut back on their buying of spaces and they are programs that are being offered by other institutions. We are - (Interjection)- HON. R. PENNER: Like typing. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Like typing, yes, yes. What we are doing is saying that for us to continue offering these low priority courses would cost us $1. 2 million.

We do not have that money to now offer the new high prio rity programs in com put er technol ogy, microcomput ers, and data processing. If we're going to move into the 20th Century which the colleges have to do, we're going to have to cut down on some of the programs that are still back in the horse and buggy days. We're red istributing the mone y within the com munity college system, so that we can meet the times and meet the demands of industry and the technologies, so we're not training our students for obsolescence like we are doing today, but we're training them for secured jobs for the next decade or two.

MR. G. FILMON: So, Mr. Speaker, what the Minister is saying is that this is another example of the fraudulent aspect of the Jobs Fund whereby - (Int erjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Question. Question. SOME HONOU RABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. G. FILMON: Is the Minister telling us now that this is another example - (I nterjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. May I remind the honourable member that this is question period. It's a time for seeking information from the government. It is not a time for statements or for making argumentative questions. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, my question is, is the Minister now telling us that this is another example of taking money out of normal budgetary items as they exist in all the departmental budgets and redirecting them into the Jobs Fund, so that the government can get a higher political profile and more credit for taking away money from full-time, long-term jobs to create short-term make-work jobs under its Jobs Fund? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I have a hard time understanding the point that the Member for Tuxedo is making, since what we are doing is guaranteeing the permanent, full -ti me, secure employment of these indi viduals, so th at they will no t be classed as redundant; so that they will not be continuing to teach courses that are not required, or not as important. These are not part-ti me positions, sho rt-term emplo yment. They are going to be redeployment and retraining for full-time positions. Farm Support Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that during the 198 1 election campaign the Premier and the Minister of Agriculture prom ised that there would be no farmers lose their homes, farms or businesses; in view of that fact that tomorrow, there are going to be several hard­ pressed farmers marching on the Manitoba Legislature 1623

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 to get their message across to the Min ister of Agriculture, who apparently according to reports is too busy to pay attention to the concerns of the farm communit y. Can the Minister confirm, Mr. Speaker, that the forms have not even reached the banks now to help those farmers under a proposed MACC program that he said would be the major support program for the banks and the farmers? Have the banks got those forms to support the farm communi ty? MR. SPEA KER: The Hono urable Min ister of Agricultu re. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, fi rst of all, the honourable member makes certain assumptions in his remarks that I am too busy to meet with interested parties in the province - (Interjection) - Well, the honourable member makes those statements which are inaccurate, firstly. The fact of the matter is, I have met several times with the group of farmers who have difficulties; there's no doubt about it.

In terms of the statements that are coming out from the farmers and the statements coming out from the fina ncial institutions, there seems to be a discrepancy as to what the actual nature of the problems are and that farmers are facing in terms of the availability of credit. Mr. Speak er, we have attem pted to, and are attempting to see whether we can extend counselling and mediation in terms of dealing with some of the problems that farmers have with financial institutions, whether they be public or private. Specifically, to the question dealing with whether the forms are in place in the bankers' hands, Mr.

Speaker, I'm advised that as of a week or so ago, all institutions within the province have signed their agreements with MACC to participate within the program. I will take the specific question as notice as to whether all branches of tho se institutions have received application forms from their head offices. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, then, in view of the fact that the Minister says there is an agreement now signed with the banks, can the Minister confirm that because of the qualifications for the program, that you have to have 20 percent of your operation owned by that farmer - an increase of some 10 percent from the old program - that it is now prohibiting those farmers who are in need of getting support from MACC, and in fact the majority of people who are hard-pressed, are not getting support through the government program? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the decisions as to whether or not individu al farmers are accepted onto the program are made by the financial institutions themselves as to whether or not they're prepared to guarantee or loan further funds to the farmers. We have requested as part of the agreement that any declines made by the financial institutions will be referred to MACC to see whether additional measures or additional reviews should be undertaken.

That is part of the present agreement, so that information has to be suppli ed to Manitoba Ag ricultur al Credit Corporations to notify them as to the number of farmers who are in facf being turned down in receiving operating funds through their lending institutions. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture confirm that particularly the one credit union at Gladstone says that he looks at these loans the same way he looks at the other high risk loans that they deal with? If they're doing that, Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister then not consider, and it's a specific question, will he consider changing the programs to deal with those hard-pressed farmers and those people that are going to be here tomorr ow, who he hasn't listened to at this point, and have had to go to the extent of marching on the Legislature so that he pays attention to the difficulties of farm financing? Will he change the program to accomm odate those people so that they can continue farming? MR. D. ORCHARD: Start listening to advice. HON. B. URUSKI : Mr.

Speak er, the honourable members should be aware and then will know tomorrow - they are presuming what the demonstration is about before they've even heard it or seen it. I will be attending the demonstration to hear the concerns of farmers, but I am not standing here so as to presume I know exactly what the demonstration will be about even before it's held. If there will be any changes in the program, Mr. Speaker, it will be based on the number of app lic ations and the decisions tha t fina ncial institutions will make in dealing with their farmers. HON. J. DOWNEY: A final supplementar y to the Minister, Mr.

Speaker. Can the Minister confirm that last night he had a meeting set up with the Cattle Producers Association to discuss the program that the beef cattle producers wanted for the feedlot industry and some changes they were considering for the cattle producers, and that the Min ister of Agriculture did not have the cou rtesy to show up and meet with those individuals last night in Winnipeg? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that his colleague was on the same aircraft as I was from Swan River, where we attended a public meeting - (I nterjection) - I left the aircraft at Arborg, where my vehicle, was in the morning and certainly at 8:00 o'clo ck in the evening, when the meeting was to be held at 8:30, I was unable to make it. My staff and my Deputy attended the meeting and their concerns were presented to the government and are being reviewed. HON. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. The Minister makes reference to the fact that my colleague was on the same plane.

Yes, my colleague was on the same plane and he did have time to meet with the cattle producers. Quality of drinking water City of Winnipeg MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Honourable Minister of Health. As a result 1624

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 of some rather sensational statements made by the Medical Director of the Manitoba Federation of Labour, Dr.

Linda Murra y, to the effect that bodies would pile up if something were not done to replace the asbestos cement water mains in the City of Winnipeg, and in view of the lack of assurance and the very uncertain answers given yesterday by the Minister of Environment, can the Minister of Health indicate whether or not the Public Health officials in his department can give the people of Winnipeg a firm assurance as to whether the drinking water of the City of Winnipeg is safe for the people to drink? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, my colleague dealt with that yesterday. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, that's precisely the problem, that your colleague dealt with it yesterday without giving a firm answer, and the people of Winnipeg need some assurance. Since the Minis ter of the Environment cannot give the assurance, can the Minister of Health, who is responsible for the health concerns of all the people of Manitoba, give any assurance that the drinking water supply of the City of Winnipeg is safe? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I repeat, the member is repeating the same question that he asked I think three times yesterday, and the answer is the same. It was dealt with; and it is being dealt with by my colleage, the Minister responsible. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, some rather sensational statements were made over the weekend that may have verged on the irresponsible - that were designed to scare people about the safety of the water supply. We have a right to know from the Min ister of Health, since we can't get that answer, is the water supply safe to drink? Oil and Salt Water Spill - Virden MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, after the questions asked by my colleague yesterday, I'm somewhat hesitant to ask some questions but I'll ask a further question of the Minister responsible for the Environment. In the last several days there have been two rather serious salt water and oil spills in the Cromer and Virden area. I would ask the Min ister of the Environment what steps he has taken to control the spills, to contain them so they don't further pollute the streams, and what steps are they taking to clean up the mess? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, as you are aware we discussed this matter in the context of spills last year around this time as well. At that time the government responded to a longstanding problem by reviewing the mechanisms by which these spills were examined and also reviewing the procedures which would be follo wed in the event of such a spill. It's my understanding that there was an oil salt water spill in the Cromer area, or spills, as the member indicated, and that the cleanup of the affected area is proceeding under the direction of the Petroleum Branch.

The member will recall we indicated that would be the procedure in the event of such spills last year and we are following through on that. The Virden area Public Health Inspector is involved in a review of that cleanup, has inspected the site, and is providing assistance to the Petroleum Branch upon request. Water samples have been taken to check for salt contamination in the property owners' water supply. Well water samp les were taken as well and they indicated that there was an excess of chlori des in the well water that were found as a result of those particular samples.

The spill occurred on April 6th, it involved approxima tely 15 0 barrels of a 50-50 mixture of crude oil and salt water. What is happening now is the Department of Energy and Mine s, through the Petroleum Branch is in fact involved in the cleanup and working with residents in the area and my department to ensure that whatever action is necessary and can be taken is being taken. MR. H. GRAHAM: A supplementary question to the Min ister. What efforts have been made to provide safe drinking water to the farmers whose wells have been contamina ted?

Has the Minister taken any action in that respect seeing as how he can't give any assurance to the people of Winnipeg that they have safe drinking water? HON. J. COWAN: Well, there are really two questions in that one question. I'll answer both of them. In respect to the Virden spill, as I indicated, the Petroleum Branch is the lead agency and I will take the member's question as notice in the absence of the Minister of Energy and Mines and report back to him as to what activities the Petroleum Branch is taking. We are providing an advisory role in respect to that spill.

In respect to the questions regarding Winnipeg, in the previous questions from his seatmate I can only indicate, as I did yesterday, that the province is, in fact, concerned about any statements and concerned about any studies or any opinions which would indicate there might be a problem with the City of Winnipeg water supply in regard to asbestos contamination or any other form of contamination, and that, of course, includes other water supplies in the province.

Yesterday I listed out a whole long list of studies which have been undertaken and studies which have been done and studies which are ongoing and indicated that the province will, in fact, be reviewing that material and responding according ly. What the members opposite are asking for is a categorical assurance that the water supply is safe and history has shown us, and it should have shown them, that tho se sorts of categorical assurances are, No. 1, difficult to provide and No. 2, oftentimes misleading. Inadvertently so, but misleading nonetheless. 1625

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 What we want to do is acknowledge the concerns, which I think is the reasonable thing to do (I nterjec tion) - and that ack nowledgement also indicates what action this Provincial Government is going to take to assure itself that it benefits from the latest available information.

That is exactly what we are attempting to do and for the members oppo site to try to blow that out of proportion or to try to indicate that is not a proper course of action, I believe, is being unfair to the activities which we are undertaking in good faith and at the same time is not providing an accurate assessment to the problem. There are concerns that have been expressed, we take those concerns very seriously.

As I indicated to him yesterday, we have had no indication by the studies that have been done to show that there is a great danger as a result of individua ls drinking the City of Winnipeg water supply but we will remain concerned because we know that there is new evidence being brought to bear every day on issues such as this and other issues. We will continue to play the role of responsible government reviewing new evidence and acting accordingly. User Fees - Health Care System MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honour able Minister of Health.

I would remind the Minister of the Envirnonment, however, that we'll read that speech back to him when he's back in opposition a few years from now. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Hon ourable Minister of Health and I would ask him; in view of the increasing signs of deterioration in and danger to our universal health care system, has the Min ister had any discussions with his counterparts in Alberta and British Columbia about their plans, firm or projected, for introducing user fees into their insured health care systems? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Labour . HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I have information about a question asked - (I nterjection) - I'm sorry - I didn't kno w the member was continuing his line of questioning? MR. SPEAKER: I believe the honourable member was waiting for an answer to his question . MR. L. SHERMAN: On a point of order, I think you've clarified it, Mr. Speaker; I had a question on the floor to the Minister of Health and I was waiting for his answer. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. HON. R. PENNER: With respect, I don't think the Minister of Health heard your question. Could the Member for Fort Garry just rephrase it. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Min ister of Health was based on contentions that our health care system in general seems to be deteriorating and in increasing danger. My question to him is whether he has had any discussions with his counterparts in either Alberta and British Columbia about their plans, firm or projected, for the introduction of user fees into their insured health care systems? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, Mr. Speaker, the last meeting that I've had with the Ministers of Health was months ago and this wasn't a topic of conversation.

I only saw the report on the proposed action of the Alberta Go vernment and I think you remember that I made a statement in the House on that, here in Manitoba we certainly don't intend to go the same way. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, has the Minister met with other provincia l Minis ters of Health or have provincial Ministers of Health met with the national Minister of Health and Welfare on this particular subject of projected and anticipated cutbacks in federal health­ care funding? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I can only repeat what I said last week or earlier in the week.

The situation is that we have on a number of occasions, as a group, requested a meeting with the Federal Minister of Health, and to this day we haven't heard any answer to that request. Provincial road conditions MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Minister of Highways and would ask him, in light of the bad and deteriorating road conditions on PR 302, running from the Trans-Canada north to the PR 50 1, I wonder if the Minister of Hig hways can give some assurance to the residents and the motorists who use that particular road that there will be some upgrading taking place this year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Hig hways. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I think it's fair to point out to the Member for La Verendrye that the Hig hways Department Estimates have yet to be tabled and, therefore, we're not in a position to respond with respect to his specific, but I want to remind the honou rable member that we have so much carry-over work in that particular part of the province that it's very difficult to anticipate a lot of additional new work. "' MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the Minister's remarks. I wonder if he could confirm thoug h that the land acquisition has been completed on that particular stretch of road. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I'm subject to correction, but I believe that is correct. There are a whole host of roads and highways throughout Manitoba where that is the case, but where projects will not be proceeding this year. 1626

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 Sherritt Gordon Mines - NEED Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have information in response to a question asked earlier, which we took as notice, since we've been able to gain this information from federal staff. It has to do with the Sherritt Gordon request under the NEED Program. It is our information that Mr. Neil Heinrichs of the Federal Goverment staff on the Development Fund Group has received an application from Sherritt Gordon dated February 14, 1983.

The request is for federal and provincial joint funding, as well as some input, I understand, from the company. The project has been held at that level and is under review. The problem, as I understand it, has to do with the match of the project being suggested with the criteria for the program, which of course is targeted at those peo ple who have exhausted their unemp loyment insurance or are social welfare recipients; so the project application has not come forward beyond the staff level at this point. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, just since the Min ister of Energy and Mines may well have failed, once again, to keep his colleagues informed on this application, I would like to table a copy of the application for the information of the Minister of Labour and the First Minister. Manitoba Tourism Industry MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Economic Development and Tourism. Can she inform the House if the figures presented by Mr.

Will Organ, the president of the Tourism Industry Association of Manitoba, that Manitoba's income from U.S. travellers in 1982 is down 9 percent? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I was expecting the member opposite to ask about the numb ers of tourists, not necessarily the income. I understand the income level is fairly constant. There has been a reduction, however, in the numb ers of travellers; higher in the area of day crossings than in the area of overnight crossings. The main causes for this decline, Mr.

Speaker, in addition to general recession conditions, have been tha t ther e's been a gr eatly increased advertisi ng campaign by the Ontario Tourism Department, which offers very similar lodges and outdoor experience activities closer to the American bord er. Having recognized this, we feel that we can recapture our fair share of that market. Interestingly enough, the North Dakota tourist number has held fairly constant and the decline was mainly in the Minnesota market where the Ontario thrust was most concentrated.

There was a suggestion in the speech recorded in the paper that it was our tax system that was a deterrent to travellers, and I guess the answer to that has to be, Mr. Speaker, that a tourist policy has to be set in the context of the larger overall policy for the province. I think it would be quite inappropriate for us to tie our energy policy and tax issues precisely to increasing tourism. It's a question of balancing out the different demands. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, it's fairly obvious that Ontario is doing a better job than us, according to the Min ister. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can explain why Manitoba is do wn less than B.C., Al berta and Saskatchewan. Down more, pardon me, than Alberta, B.C. and Saskatchewan. Excuse me, Mr. Speaker. If somebody happens to make a little slip in this House, we always have the childr en from the other side commenting; but the

article does say very sincerely that Manitoba is down less than the other provinces. I ask the Minister why we are down more than the other western provinces and why is Ontario doing a better job of advertising than us? It must be quite a bit better because we were not down this far before in 1980 and 1981. Maybe the Minister can tell us why. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I do recognize that the enormously increased input into advertising in Ontario has assisted in their ability to attract tourists to what was a fairly undeveloped potential relative to ours; but I think, without taking the name of the deity in vain, that we may have to lay some of the responsibility on his or her shoulders, because the lakes and the outdoor attractions in that area happen to be closer to the border and therefore somewhat more accessible to American tourists. Mr.

Speaker, in developing tourist destinations, there is some advantage that comes to an area that gets in early and has directed advertising, but over time there is something of a balancing out as other areas follow and advertise their attractions in an equally effective way, and I think we are experiencing some of that balancing out. Mr.

Speaker, it would be inaccurate of me not to identify as well that the brief slowdown and uncertainties at the track did cause an immediate impact on American tourism, and I do caution the members opposite that they should accept some of the responsibility for the very unstable situation we had at that track that led to the hiatus in the middle of the summer. We do look forward to a much more stable and steady influx of tourists this summer. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the Minister has made some comment s regarding the lakes, etc. in Ontario being close to the border.

In the latest issue of the Manitoba Business, it says here, "We have tourist attractions including everything from deserts to culture in the Province of Manitoba." An

article by a person in the Minister's department is saying that we should stop them from running through our province and going to other provinces. 1627

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 Mr. Speaker, if we have all these attractions, why aren't we stopping the people from going to other provinces such as Ontario and the other western provinces as they have been doing, obviously in 1982, because we're down so much? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the task of attract ing tourists and retaining them is something that has many aspects to it. One has to do with, I suppose, the highway pattern and whether or not tourists get lured off to the attractions that lie throughout the province.

We're looking at the varieties of ways by giving better information, more dramatic information and better signage that we will be able to draw tourists off into those delightful areas that we all know are there. We have, in fact, made, I think a very substantive gr ant to the very or gani zation that spokesman represented to assist in the advertising, because one of the desires of the private-sector organizations in tourism is that they retain an active role in assisting with the advertising.

I for one, am confident that we have a co-operative approach to that advertising and a pretty strategic approach and I think we shall retain our fair share of the tourist market. I think it's inappropr iate to think that we wish Ontario ill-will and low tourism in order to help ou rselves. I think what we want is our reasonable and fair share of the tourism market. MR. SPEAKER : Order ple ase. The time for Oral Questions has expired, Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek on a point of order. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Do I have leave, Mr. Speaker? The Premier said, "leave", when I was up. MR.

SPEAKER: Or der pl ease. I unde rstand the expression "leave" means unanimous consent. One member cannot give unanimous consent. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: I don't know, Mr. Speaker, whether I should wait for the member to leave. Wasn't that the request? Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and th e Hous e resolved itself into a Commi ttee to consider of the Su pply to be gr ante d to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Health and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Emplo yment Services. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - LABOUR AND EMPLOY MENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: We are on Item 3.(d)(2)(

b) Federal-Provincial Programs Co-ord ination - Other Expenditures; 3. (d)(2)(b)-pass; next Item is 3.(d)(3)(

a) The Min ister of Labour. HON. M. B. DOLIN: I could give a brief overview of what happens at the Selkirk Training Plant, the purpose of it, if the member wishes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I can ask a question then. In the departmental report there is an indication that due to worsening economic conditions the plant's ability to place gradua tes in permanent jobs was reduced. A further result of these conditions is that more trainees now remain on the program for the maximum six months after completing the first two phases.

The Annual Report covers the year 1982. Could the Minister perhaps comment on that comment in last year's report and indicate what the experience has been so lar this year and perhaps the prognostications of being able to obtain permanent jobs for the graduates? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Taking the first part of that question, the difficulty in finding jobs for the people who are in training there, it is obvious in what was a worsening economic situation, that any group is going to have difficulty finding permanent jobs.

The Selkirk Training Plant experienced this same difficulty just as other employers or trainers did and, therefore, the people in training were kept in the training course to its maximum in many cases. With regard to the other information. With the fiscal year as the structure, the structure about which I will be speaking, in other words, the April through March year, no t the calendar year of Janua ry through December, there are 57 trai nees of the '82-83 fiscal year at the Selkirk Training Plant.

One of the ways in which the issue of the difficulty in finding permanent jobs for these trai nees has been dealt with is the incorporation of a third phase of the training which involves a job search, an assistance to these trai nees in conducting a job search. That was a part of the program that didn't exist before; it was straight training. Now job search, that includes a workshop and all the related activities necessary to find work in the private sector, or to find work outside of the Selkirk Training Plant, are incorpora ted into the training procedure. That's the final 10 weeks of the training. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the report indicated that in the year '80-8 1, 23 persons com pleted the program and went on to employment; and in '8 1-82, there were only 13 who completed the program and went on to employment. In '80-8 1, there were five who completed the program and did not go directly on to employment; in '81- 82, there were 23 persons who completed the program and did not directly go on to 1628

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 employment. So obviousl y, the statistics point out a very serious problem for the gradua tes of this program in finding emplo yment and opportun ity. Does the Minister have the statistics for '82-83 for those two areas? HON. M. B. DOLIN: I'm told that the reporting time that is included in the report that you have in front of you, the report of the department, is a different time than the figures that I'm using which is the fiscal year. The report to the Legislature is a different time than the fiscal year. So we can compare the figures in that report and we can compare the figures here.

I can give you accurate figures for the numb er of people who found emplo yment from the training group in the last fiscal year, the previous fiscal year and we can, I suppose, discuss hypothetically how many will find emplo yment in the future? MR. G. MERCIER: Just to clarify it, it would seem from the statistics here, although the report is for the year 1982, these statistics are for the fiscal year '80-81 and '8 1- 82. Does she have the statistics for '82-83? HON. M. B. DOLIN: To the end of October, '82. MR. G. MERCIER: These statistics are only to October of 19 82? HON. M. B.

DOLIN: Yes, it's not the full fiscal year because the report was obviously gathered and written - (Interjection) - MR. G. MERCIER: You have the statistics up to October, '82? HON. M. B. DOLIN: No, you have the statistics in that report. In the Annual Report of the department the statistics are clear up to October, '82. Yes, the figures that I have are an update on that. MR. G. MERCIER: Could we have them again then? HON. M. B. DOLIN: I have a whole group of figures and I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about them. MR. G.

MERCIER: I'd like to know how many completed the program and went on to employment and how many com pleted the program and did not go on to emplo yment? HON. M. B. DOLIN: The numb er of trai nees who went on to emplo yment during the fiscal year in 19 8 1- 82 is 26; in '82-83 was 12. The numb er of trai nees who comple ted the program, but did no t go on to employment, there's no figure for '8 1-82 indicating that the group of trainess who went on to employment was a much smaller group. In '82-83 there are 27 who did not go on to employment.

There is a larger group of trainees in '82-83, but of that larger group there were a numb er of them, about two-thirds who did not go on to emplo yment and about one-third that did. There were two that went on to further training. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I raise this as a serious qu estion, ha s the Min ister examin ed the cost- effectiveness of this whole program, in terms of the number of people that are finding jobs as a result of the program. HON. M. B. DOLIN: Part of the operating plan that I mentioned to you before is new, as I indicated.

The plan is to operate the plant under a new management system or a new operating plan, a new training scheme, and that plan has been in place for nearly a month now. It started in March of 19 83. We, of course, are monitoring it closely to see if we can produce a skill level, or trainees, that will have an easier time finding jobs in the marketplace. Of course, that depends on he marketpla ce as well, but we're hopeful, with the improvement that is evident there, that there will be a higher success rate for the trainees.

In the meantime, the training program has been revamped, to a very great degree, to meet the needs of the trainees. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, quite often we hear criticism from the government of us, as an Opposition, that we recommend, where we consider appropriate, increases in expenditures. We do so always at the same time keeping in mind the limit there must be in overall expenditures. But, I would suggest to the Minister, that they have put in a new plan and obviously they're concerned about the cost-effectiveness of this program.

We would like to know, I think, next year during the Estima tes, the results of tha t review of these expenditures, because it might be found to be much more cost-effective to go into other sorts of job creation programs. I have suggested to the Minister, for example, an expansion of the Youth Emplo yment Program.

If there's a problem with finding money this might be one area that they might look at, because certainly my experience under our program that we had, which has been criticized by some members of the government, in many of those situations where there was a subsidy to the private sector that emplo yers used that subsidy to hire young people.

It was, in effect, a career training program because they learned various skills while on the job and, while the employer was receiving the subsidy, he was able, because of that subsidy, to train young people; and many of them, under our programs, were able to find permanent employment in those jobs. So, for the amount of money that was spent there, for the number of jobs that were created, it's a fairly cost­ effective program.

So I just ask the Minister, in this area, that I would agree with her, because I think she's of the same view that this program should be looked at and reviewed seriously from a cost-effective point of view. Perhaps next year we can deal with the results of that review and whether changes should be made and perhaps other more cost-effective ways looked at of job creation. HON. M. B. DOLIN: This program is certainly under constant review. We will be watching carefully to see that we are, in fact, doing the best possible job for the trai nees as well.

The interesting part of the figu res, I think, for the program over the past few years is that the number of trai nees retained has significantly increased. The number of trainees at the beginning of the fiscal year and those registered throughout the year has remained 1629

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 fairly constant over the last four years, which is what I have the figures for, but the number of trainees retained for the entire program is much higher; they're not dropping out. I think that's an indication, not only of their intent to finish the course, but also of the problems in the marketpl ace, the fact that jobs simply are not available; and there is an awareness on the part of those in the training programs that the more training they get the better equipped they'll be to eventually find jobs.

I certainly hope that does turn around, but we will be monitoring it and reporting back to you next year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, just to get a couple of figures clear from the Minister. For fiscal year , I believe it is '81-82 that she has her last figures on? HON. M. B. DOLIN: No, I have them for '82-83. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay then, for '82-83 how many of the trai nees were able to get jobs after completion of their training? Was that number 26? HON. M. B.

DOLIN: '82-83 figur es, which includes the time up until, and including January 31, 1983, the number of trai nees who went on to employment during the fiscal year was 12. MR. D. ORCHARD: I think that reinforces the point that my colleague has been saying.

If the expenditure for - I realize we're looking at '83-84 when we're talking a 2 million expenditure - but I would assume that last year it was at 1.75 million, in total, and if there were 12 trai nees that ended up in the labour force with jobs, as a result of their training, that boils down to, on a quick calculat ion, of somewhere in the neighbourhood of $150,000 cost per job created.

In, I think, any cost accounting as to the effectiveness of a program one would have to seriously analyze this one to see whether those $150,000 per successfully placed trainee might not be better spent in other areas to assure permanent jobs for unemployed Manitobans. HON. M. B. DOLIN: This is a training program, not a job creation program, and it should be clearly delineated as such. Skilled training is an important part of the work of this department; job creation and employment services is another part of it, but this is a training plant, this is not a job creation plant.

The point that I made earlier is also an important one I think, the number of trainees in '81-82 who withdrew for their own reasons from the program, was 60; in '82-83 that number dropped to 26. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Surely though the Min ister must concede that, even though this is a training program, and not a job creation program per se, whatever the definition of a job creation program may be with the Minister and with the government, but the end result of this training program is to place people in the work force and to give them skills that will allow them to be employed in the·work force of the Province of Manitoba.

When the Minister indicates that there are 12 successful trai nees who have been placed, the cost of training them for that still boils down to $150,000, give or take a few dollars, per successful trai nee. I don't believe that, for instance, Red River Community College has those kinds of costs assigned per trained individual who is successfully in the job market after one-year training. HON. M. B. DOLIN: The commu nity colleges are not always dealing with Special Needs clients; these are Special Needs clients.

I would also like to point out to the member that there is some money returned from the product made, which is then purchased; so that's $250,000.00. There is money recoverable from Canada, almost an equal amount, and so, to use the figure of $2 million and divide it by the number of trainees is not exactly accurate because there is recoverable money. The million dollars is the figure you should be working with, in about the third line of the Estimates there. MR. D. ORCHARD: What is the amount recoverable from the ongoing production of the training program, and where does that recovery or that revenue appear?

HON. M. B. DOLIN: It's just below the figure I just gave you in the Estim ate book, $250,000.00. It's (c). MR. D. ORCHARD: That is a recovery of theor etically sale of materials that are produced. HON. M. B. DOLIN: Yes, it's recoverable from he departments that purchase it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Are there no sales to outside of government departments? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Yes, it's primarily to Provincial Government departments. There is ocassionally a sale to a Federal Government department but not to the general public. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(3)(a)-pass; 3.(d) (3)(b)-pass; 3.( d)(3)(

c) Recoverable from Other Appropriations­ pass; 3. (e)(1)(a) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Staff postions, is the increase just due to an increase in salaries? MR. SPEAKER: Will the Member for St. Norbert please repeat the question? MR. G. MERCIER: Is the increase here simply due to an increase in salary, or are there new staff positions? HON. M. B. DOLIN: No new staff positions; an increase in salary. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate how many trainees or gr aduates the program is expected to result in during this year? HON. M. B.

DOLIN: Approximately 111 trainees, if that's the question you're asking. To actually break out the number of ongoing tra ining positions , short-term 1630

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 training positions, in the North and the south and so on, it will take us a few minutes to break out the information but we can get it for you and gave it to you later if you want. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the 1982 report indicates that 91 trai nees gradua ted from New Careers during that period of time. It doesn't seem to indicate how many of those obtained permanent employment afterwards. HON. M. B. DOLIN: Permanent employment, on-the­ job-training is a part of the program. We work with employers to give the training. MR. G.

MERCIER: The Minister is saying then that all of tho se 91 gr adua tes stayed on in permanent employment? HON. M. B. DOLIN: During 1982-83 there were some trai nees who left and we have the figures on that. We keep track of these people and determine wha t happened to them. In the North three people left their positions for whatever reason; in the south 12 people left their positions. No one left because of ill ness; two were subs equently dism issed; and no one was relocated . A very good retention rate. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is the Minister saying the rest of them stayed on in permanent emplo yment, how many would that be? HON. M. B. DOLIN: In my calculation you would substract 17 from the total number of gradua tes. MR. G. MERCIER: The total cost of the program is $1.4 million and $500,000 is recoverable from the Federal Government? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Yes, that's correct. MR. G. MERCIER: Under which agreement is that money recoverable? Is there a limit on it, is that why it's final? HON. M. B. DOLIN: The No rthern Devel opment Agreement. MR. G. MERCIER: Is there a limit on the amount recoverable? HON. M. B.

DOLIN: Well, it's for the northern part of this program; obvio usly , it's from the No rthern Development Agreement. The number of trai nees that we have determines the amount that we can claim under the agreement, the number of programs that are going, but it's only for the North; it's under the Northern Development Agreement. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the report indicates that there are two agreements, one Adult Occupational Training Agreement with Canada Emplo yment and Imm igration and another ag reement under the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion.

The Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreements indicates 1631 approximately that one out of every two dollars spent is recovered from the Federal Go ver nment. The Minister's Estimates show a total expenditure of $:1. 4 million with $500,000 recoverable. Could the Minister indicate how much is recovered under each agreement and why only $500,000 is shown as recoverable when the report says that approximately one out of every two dolla rs spent is recovered from the Federal Government? HON. M. B. DOLIN: I will give you a more complete explanation of how we recover the mon ies under each part of this program .

Under the southern part of the program, New Careers South, tha t's south of the No rthlands Agreement bound ary, that's how it's divided. The costs of training are shared with the - it's called the Canada Manpower Industrial Training Program so some of the funds are recoverable for the southern part of the New Careers Training Pr ogram under that particular federal agreement.

Contracts are for a term of up to 52 weeks and include recoveries that are 85 percent of the trainee's salaries, 50 percent of trainee travel and living expenses, and 100 percent of instructor's salary for preparation, instruction and evaluation of the modules. Under the Northern part of the program, New Careers North, that's cost-shared on a 60140 basis, under the Northlands Agreement . It's 60 percent federal and 40 percent provincial. The geographic boundary is determined again by the Department of Northern Affairs under that agreement. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, in view of the fact the report says that approximately one out of every two do lla rs spent is recovered from the Federal Government, and in view of the fact that the Estimates sho w that only $500, 000 of $1.4 million will be recovered, which is perhaps a little more than one­ third, can the Min ister explain why there is that difference? Why are we not recovering 50 percent? HON. M. B. DOLIN: If you look at (e)(1)(

a) and (b). which I think is what you were doing, and the $500,000 underneath that and that's against the $1,408,400 figure that you see on the right, and you look at the other part of New Careers, of course, both parts of this are administered by the same branch. As far as we're concerned it's the same program being delivered but you recover them in different ways. You look at the next section, which is (2)(a)(

b) and (

c) and so on, the cost there is shared 60/40, so if you look at the entire New Careers Program, you have a 60140 recov erable base in one

section and you have slig htly less than 50 percent in the other section. It amounts to about half the money being recoverable in the entire New Careers Program . MR. G. MERCIER: What is the total amount recoverable then? The $500,000 plus the $1.4 million? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Yes, $500,000 plus $1,410,600, then Northern Affairs recovers at 60/40 under the agreement; 60 percent of the $1,410,600.00. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the amount spent per job?

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 HON. M. B. DOLIN: I'm sorry, I'm not sure of the question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The amount spent per job. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HON. M. B. DOLIN: Per trainee? We have a figure on the unit cost for the North and for the south. In the south, the unit cost is estimated at $20,000 for 1982- 83; in the North, the estimated cost is $23, 700, which gives you the total program cost of $21 ,850.00. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Minister consider that high or justifiable? HON. M. B.

DOLIN: When one looks at this program which has been in place for quite for quite awhile I think that it has to be considered one of the best training programs that any government has. It is the model for programs put in place by other governments and the effectiveness of the program is clearly indicated by a question you asked earlier and the answer that I gave you about the number of trai nees who are employed, who are still employed.

The dropout rate is absolutely minimal and the emplo yers are obviously happy with the person that they have trained to do the job in their place, or they have assisted in training I should say. Our success rate is very high and as I've said, the New Careers Program is a model being used and requested by other jurisdictions as a model, and in fact is also being used as a model in other parts of Manitoba as a way in which to effectively train people to function to a high degree of success in the workpla ce and within a career of their choice. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: The Minister indicated a North and a south figure. Of tho se two figures, is that the salaries paid to the trainee or is that the admin istrative cost plus the salaries? HON. M. B. DOLIN: It's the list of items that I gave earlier that are recoverable. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then do we take it, for instance, that in Northern Manitoba, the $23, 700 is only the portion recovered from the Federal Government of the training cost? HON. M. B. DOLIN: In the North, the full cost of operating the program is what is recoverable on a 601 40 shared basis. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then what does the $23,700 represent per trainee?

HON. M. B. DOLIN: That is our unit cost per annum for the program in the North, salary plus training and so on. MR. D. ORCHARD: Of the $23,700, what is the salary portion that's directly paid to the trainee? HON. M. B. DOLIN: The average salary of the trainee - and this is an average - is $17, 160.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Member for Pembina put the microphone closer to him . They are having a hard time recording it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Okay now, I assume that $17 , 160 would be an average between North and south. There would be a differential between the two? HON. M. B.

DOLIN: No, that's the average of salaries in the North. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, fine. Now then, when the trai nees finish their program and they are employed outside of the program by the employer presumab ly, does the Minister have the average salaries they receive post-training when they're fully employed? HON. M. B. DOLIN: These are the entry level salaries in the jobs that they are performing. MR. D. ORCHARD: So then . . . HON. M. B. DOLIN: Excuse me, the average salary, the figure that I gave you is 85 percent of the entry level salaries. They are paid an entry level salary when they're actually on the job.

MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay then, if we were to do a quick calculation - I don't have a calculator here - you might end up with their starting salaries after they finish their training program somewhere in the neighbourhood of $20,000 per year? Would that be approxima te? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Yes, in the North. That's the figu res we're using . MR. D. ORCHARD: If the Minister could just provide a couple of typical job occupations from the program? HON. M. B.

DOLIN: There were nutrition and health advisors, store managers, adult corrections, aircraft mechanics, chemi cal abus e counsellor s, juvenile counsellors, child and family service workers. The aircraft mechanics is a program that is expanding and contin uing. Those are the current projects, and those that are currently under consideration to be put in place shortly will be the child and family service workers, residential counsellors, school counsellors, natural resource officers, production managers, budget and financial analysts and Native trainers. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Would the Minister have any indication of what the breakdown in employment would be of the trai nees who are emplo yed after they finished their program; the breakdown of employment in the private sector versus jobs that are either directly or indirectly funded by the public? HON. M. B. DOLIN: We strive for one-third in the private sector and one area where I think that we have achieved some success in this area is the store managers.

I was at that graduation myself before I became a Minister and was pleased to see that a number of the trai nees were involv ed with stores such as The Bay, as well band stores; Codville Company; Hudson's Bay Company, and having lived in the North and being involved, in fact, with some of the trai nees as students in the early 197 0s, I was pleased to see the 'iuccess 1632

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 that was being achieved by them and the co-operation of the compan ies involved. There are a number of band stores, of course, too that were involved in this project. Others are within the area of the public sector or service industries. MR. D. ORCHARD: Just one final question. The Minister is indicating that the ballpark breakdown has been attempted to be one-third private, two-t hirds . . . HON. M. B. DOLIN: That's what we strive for, yes. MR. D. ORCHA RD: And have you been able to consistently stay pretty close to that one-third, two­ thirds? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Over the last year? MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, over the last several years, say. HON. M. B. DOLIN: With the inclusion of the aircraft mechanics training we have been able to keep just about right on the one-third, two-third mark. There has been a request from the Hudson's Bay Company to repeat the training of the store managers again. MR. CH AIRMAN: 3.(1 )(a) -p ass; 3. (1) (b)- pass; 3.(2)(a)- pass; 3.(2)(b)- pass. 3. (3)(

a) Unemployment Support Services. HON. M. B. DOLIN: It's not Unemployment Support Services; it's Emplo yment Support Services, I might point out. MR. CHAIRMAN: Emplo yment Support Services. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I'm having some difficu lty, Mr. Chairman, in correlating this area with the Annual Report from 19 82. I gu ess it's because of the restructuring of the Estimates by the Minister. Perhaps she could offer an explanation of this area. HON. M. B.

DOLIN: I think that since this is a newly reorganized branch that I should give some introductory remarks, so that your questions are answered. With the establishment of this new un it, a consolidation and co-o rdina tion of existing ru ral emplo yment services is taking pla ce. The Career Resource Centres in Winkler, Brandon and Dauphin are being amalgama ted with the Regional Services Offices at Wink ler, Dauphin, Kil larney and Teulon.

This is resulting in a redefinition of the career resource center ma ndate to incl ude co- ordination and facilit ation functions for all divisional initiatives in rural Manitoba. This expanded role enhances the center's counselling role and provides for improved emplo yment services in rural areas. Regional service officers will continue to implement di visional programs including sum mer student employment and the Manitoba Emplo yment Action Program while working more closely with the career counsellors and with program co-ordina tors within the department.

It is anticipated that the rural resource centers are going to be more pro-active and responsive to the needs of the region in which they are located with results which accurately reflect the employment opportunities of each region. The Tho mpson Career Resource Centre is also provided for under this appropriation. In 1982-83, a greater emphasis has been placed on ways in which the services of the centre can be made more relevant and accessible to residents of remote communiti es in Northern Manitoba.

It is proposed that a closer tie-in will be developed with the employment support and counselling services delivered by the branch within Thompson in order to provide a more integrated service. In 198 2-83, there were 20 staff years in the reorganized unit; for '83-'84 we are requesting 19 staff years, the reduction being a vacant career counsellor staff year from the Dauphin Career Resource Centre. MR. G. MERCIER: Did the Minister indicate there'd be a closing of offices of career resources centres? HON. M. B. DOLIN: No, I did not.

I said, there would be an amalgamation of the services offered by the career resource centres and the employment services. MR. G. MERCIER: Where will that be? HON. M. B. DOLIN: In the same towns originally listed. MR. G. MERCIER: Will there be any expansion of the career resource centres? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Will there be an expansion of the career resource centres? No, there's not an expansion of the career resource centres. There is a change in the mandate of the career resource centres to make it more employment related. MR. G. MERCIER: Would you like to expand on that new mandate? HON. M. B.

DOLIN: Much of the work previously done by those people working in the career resource centres was a duplication of opportunities offered either through the schools, through their gu ida nce counsel ling programs, or through the federal programs, the career resource programs that are availabe through federal offices.

It is felt that in a time of need for emplo yment opportuni ties and for the matching of people with jobs available, that it was more important to gear the efforts of the province and the people working for the province to employment-related activities, rather than duplicating something already being done on two different levels. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could di rect me in the report for the year 19 82 as to where the reference is to the career resource centres? HON. M. B. DOLIN: It is on Page 11 8 of your draft copy. MR. G.

MERCIER: I don't have very many questions in this area, Mr. Chairman, so I ask the indulgence of 1633

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 the Minister. Perhaps, under 4., following this item, do those expenditures refer to the career resource centres in the North? HON. M. B. DOLIN: That's not a part of the former career resource centre staff, no. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)(3)(b)-pass; 3.( e)(4)(a) - the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Min ister offer an explanation in this area? HON. M. B.

DOLIN: The Northern Regional Services offices will be responsible for the provision of employment, suppor t, and cou nselling services to enable special-needs individuals and northerners to take advantage of employment opportunities. These offices offer certain specific programs within their regions and in the past year have administered the No rthern Youth Cor e Progr am, the No rthern Emplo yment Program, relocation assistance, and career counselling, as well as counselling and referral services in co-operat ion with other agencies.

Und er the pr ograms, the No rthern Youth Cor e Program provides summer emplo yment for youth in northern commun ities where other agencies are not involv ed and emplo yment opportunities are minimal. Wage subsidies are provided for the emplo yment of students during the summer on commu nity improvement projects.

During the past winter, the Northern Emplo yment Program was implemented to provide employment opportuni ties for unemplo yed residents of Northern Manitoba in projects of a community improvement nature and additional job opportunit ies created by businesses and organizations within their existing operations. Wage subsidies were provided as incentives to this creation of incremental emplo yment. The Northern Regional Services offices act as a field delivery point for a growing number of employment and training related programs within the division.

There were 26 staff years in this program area last year and we are requesting the same number for '83-84. MR. G. MERCIER: The full amount of the expenditures is recoverable from Northern Affairs under the Northern Development Agreement, which is shared 60/40, is that correct? HON. M. B. DOLIN: That's correct. MR. G. MERCIER: Perhaps the Minister can help me. Do we now have a signed Northern Development Agreement for a five-year period? HON. M. B. DOLIN: We do have a signed Northern Development Agreement, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: For how long? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Yes, it's a five-year agreement. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)(4)(a)-pass; 3.(e)(4)(b)- pass; 3.(e)(4)(c)-pass; 3. (e)(4)(d)- pass. 1634 Resolution No. 106: Resolve that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,438,300 for Labour and Emplo yment Services for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 84-p ass. The next item under consideration is Item No. 4.(a)­ the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister explain what that is for? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Yes, the Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets

section incl udes th ree it ems: comp ressed brea thing air systems, fir e services communication system equipment, and welding/testing equipment. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the rationale for making those Capital Assets? HON. M. B. DOLIN: The compressed breathing air systems and fire services commu nication system equipment, of cou rse, is through the Fir e Comm issioner's office. That is totally recoverable from the fund, as you kno w, items under the Fir e Comm issioner's office. All of that money expended is recoverable from the insurance fund.

The welding/ testing equipment was a one-time expense, and it was in '82 - 83 adjusted load. MR. CH AIRMAN: 4. (a)- pass. Resolution 107: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $85,000 for Labour and Employment Services for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1984- pass. Now we're going back to Item 1. (

a) which is the Minister's Salary. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I have a question first that I want to put to the Minister to see whether her department deals with this. I expect that it's a matter actually for the Wo rkpla ce Safety and Health Department. It relates to CSA approval of tools. Would that short description of it be sufficient for the Minister to let me know whether that is a matter for the Workplace Safety and Health? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Is this CSA approval of tools used by workers in the workplace? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes. HON. M. B.

DOLIN: If this is a mechanical and electrical component, then it would be under our Mechanical and Engineering Branch. If you're talking about safety in the workplace though, it's obviously Workplace Health and Safety. I'm not sure what the question is so I find it hard to determine whether it's our department or the Honourable Jay Cowan's. MR. G. MERCIER: It's a matter of some detail so I think will perhaps write both the Minister of Labour and the Minister responsible for the Workplace. HON. M. B. DOLIN: That would be fine. We can then pursue it and get you an answer.

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 I would like to bring some information to the members that I indicated I would do at the beginning of the Estima te review and I'm pl eased to bring thi s information forward. It's with regard to staffing within my department and it refers to the TAP Program.

We applied to the TAP Program, which, as you know, is under a di fferent department, the Depart ment of Finance, but we did apply to them for a second position and that is the position of Senior Manager for the Jobs Fund Poli cy and Pr ogram Devel opment Un it, Emplo yment Services Division, Department of Labour and Em ployment Services. This was an in ternal appointment, Mr. Peter Ferris was appointed and the note here is that Mr.

Ferris has many years of experience with the Manitoba Civil Service and volu nteered for a TAP assignment and we are very happy that he has done this and that we were able to secure his services for this position. This relates to my com ments early on in the Estimate review where I said that the TAP Program not only brought in people from outside, but was an opportun ity for civil servants to look at a variety of career paths or career changes and do these short-term jobs in a way of either exploration or putting a unique set of talents to use in a different way and we're pleased that both Mr.

Ferris and ourselves agree that this is a good way to pursue this particular position. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Minister advise me whether Mr. Ferris - I believe was emplo yed in the Department of Health or the Department . . . HON. M. B. DOLIN: The Department of Education in the PACE Branch. MR. G. MERCIER: Could she outline his position and responsibili ties? HON. M. B. DOLIN: The position is that of senior manager of the Jobs Fund Unit, the Job Creation Unit. We spoke at some length, I believe, about one

section of that unit which was concerned with administration and so on. Mr. Ferris' responsibilities include not only being senior manager for the entire group but also having the separate responsibility for the part of the uni t tha t is concerne d with poli cy and program development. MR. G. MERCIER: Under which area would he be located, is it Emplo yment Development and Youth Services? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Mr. Ferris works directly under the Assistant Deputy Min ister of Emplo yment Services. MR. G. MERCIER: That sal ary would be in administration then, 1. (

b) is it? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Yes, that's correct. MR. G. MERCIER: What are his responsibilities as senior manager of the Jobs Fund? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Senior manager of the Job Creation Unit or the Jobs Fund Unit, that's the staff. I think there is perhaps a fine line of distinction there as opposed to being Senior Manager of the Jobs Fund per se. Mr.

Ferris' task is to oversee the planning, development, admin istra tion, fin ance and so on, all of the admin istrative details and the preparation of materials for the Jobs Fund Comm ittee, in anything that relates to the functioning of the Jobs Fund and the dispersing of programs and mon ies within it. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, in view of that appointment and tha t acknowledgement of the Minister's and this department's responsibil ities for the Jobs Fund is she now prepared to discuss the Jobs Fund? HON. M. B. DOLIN: No, Mr.

Chairman, the point that I was making and I believe that I indicated early on that I would do this so I am living up to my own good word in that area is that I would discuss the staff that is assigned to my department in this area. The discussion of the Jobs Fund is, as I said, under Appropriation 29 and I would certainly hope that the member is not going to abuse my good faith in bringing him information about the staff in order to reopen the whole issue of whether or not we discuss the Jobs Fund in its entirety at this point. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, it's not a matter of good faith in her bringing information to the Committee. She is obl igated as a servant of the people of Manitoba to answer questions and to bring information to the committee. It's not a matter - Mr. Chairman, the Minister seems to have had, throughout a good portion of these Estima tes, the attitude that we have to be satisfied with wh atever she decide s to offer us in the way of information and that's frankly not the way our system of government works, Mr. Chairman. She is responsible to account to the members of this comm ittee for the Estima tes of this department.

We have here and we knew before she brought to us the information of another appointment under the TAP Program, that this department has the responsibil ity of dealing with employment and unemployment in Manitoba. When you have a program that's offered and alleged by the government that the Jobs Fund is part of this government's war on unemplo yment, we should have been entitled to receive a great deal more information about the Jobs Fund Program from this Mini ster, Mr. Chairman, because that is - we have to perhaps put it all in perspective.

We have a situation in Manitoba where despite the position relative to other provincial economies, there are still in Manitoba 54,000 unemployed people and that I would hope that the Minister would acknowledge is a crisis of unemployment. Hopefully those numbers will decrease, Mr. Chairman, because we on this side do not take any delight in talking about 54,000 individual cases of trage dy, because it is a tragedy for every one of those persons who are unemployed, for their spouses and for their families.

We have announced a Jobs Fund Program which is supposedly going to be a large factor in reducing unemployment in Manitoba. We've asked a great number of questions which the Minister said we could not ask and she would not answer at this particular time because we have to wait until the Jobs Fund Program is discussed. 1635

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 The First Minister, in answering questions the other day with respect to the demonstration at the U.S. Consulate's Office and in newspaper articles, said he wished the opposition would deal with real issues like unemployment. So I asked him, Mr. Chairman, if it was the government's position, as they continue to make it, that we have to wait until the Jobs Fund item is discussed in the Estimates, would he move up the Jobs Fund in the order of the Estimates?

The government choo ses the departments it wishes to have reviewed in the House and chooses the order, and the government has chosen to place the Jobs Fund as the last item in those Estimates. Now he could have, in response to my question, agreed to put the Jobs Fund immediately after the Health Estimates which are going to be finished within a few days, I expect, and we could have discussed this program. The government alleges it's going to be a large factor in com bating the war on unemployment. We believe it's a fraud, Mr.

Chairman, to a great extent and the Minister has refused to dis cuss the Jobs Fund in these Estimates and we object most seriously to that. The Minister of Labour has a responsibility with respect to unemplo yment in this province and, because of that responsibility, she should have agreed to discuss the Jobs Fund and the overall job creation prospects under that Jobs Fund, but she chose to tell us that we have to wait until the Jobs Fund is discussed when it will be introduced by the First Min ister.

Now we have today, as we expected, as was the case before she gave us this information, but now we have, within these Estimates, the appointment of a senior manager of the Jobs Fund whose overall duties are to admin ister, to advise, to develop criteria and oversee the whole Jobs Fund.

The recommendations, I expect, will be coming from - at least any proposals for allocations from the Jobs Fund would be, I would think, reviewed by the administration of this department and the senior ma nager of the Jobs Funds and recommendations or comments made to the Cabinet Committee looking at the Jobs Fund, but we are unable to get any answers on that program from the Minister. Mr. Chairman, we are not very happ y with the Minister's performance. I can tell her it's an item that we think is very serious for at least 54,000 unemployed Manitobans and their fami lies. We are not happy, also, Mr.

Chairman, because of the youth unemployment statistics. Yesterday, and in past days, we have tal ked about the increase in unemployment among youth between 15 and 24 being 4.3 percentage higher at this time of the year than it was last year, and we have a prog ram introduced that will only accommodate the same number of jobs as last year, and the one last year was 1, 000 less than the prog ram the previous year when unemplo yment was much lower.

Again I say to the Minister, she's going to have to look at immediately creating and developing further plans to deal with the catastrophically high rates of unem pl oy ment am ong young people. We ha ve dis cussed, Mr. Chairman, in thi s comm it tee, the disinterest almost of the Minister of Labour in plant closings and layoffs. She has acknowledged, in question period, with respect to a few of those plant closings that she's beeri questioned on, that she simply received the notice that's required under the legislation and no action was taken by her.

In one instance, attempted to cast responsibili ty onto the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism who unfortunately has other interests and other problems. Mr. Chairman, I say to the Minister that surely the legislation cont em pla ted advanc e noti ce to the government so that the government could take some action, so the Minister could at least investigate, find out the reasons why, meet with the employer, meet with the union, try to find some solutions to these, at least try to find out the causes of the problems.

But the Minister refuses, apparently, to delve into and find out the reasons why these plant closings and layoffs in the private sector are taking place. Through her Research and Planning Department, she refuses to have a study done of the effects of the payroll tax, a tax on unemployment, Mr. Chairman, which has been, justifiab ly, severely criticized by our members on this side in the opposition, Mr. Chairman. It is a tax imposed on non-profit, charitable institutions, day care centres, etc.

It is a new tax in Manitoba imposed last year by the Minister of Finance that directly affects the number of jobs in Manitoba; it directly affects the conversion of ful l-time to part-time empl oyees in Manitoba; it dir ectly affects the rate of remuneration to employees in Manitoba, and the Minister of Labour, whom I would expect would be concerned with those probl ems from labour's viewpoint, refuses to have the Research Planning Department, within her Branch, within her administration, study and analyse the effects of that payroll tax so that she could make some recommendations to the Minister of Finance that would perhaps make it clear to him that this tax is hurting labour in Manitoba.

It's an additional overhead burden for labour in Manitoba, as well as the other increases in taxes that this government has imposed, and contri butes, in part, to the overhead of any manufacturing or business operation in Manitoba, and reduces any cost advantage that may have been in place for Manitoba businesses, and their ability to compete outside of the province. And that results in a loss of jobs.

The Minister only has to look at the reduction of jobs in the manufacturing sector to realize that there is a prob lem there and it's a problem that should be add ressed by the Minister, as well as looking at the private sector, and some of the reasons why plant closings are taking place in Manitoba, the reasons why investment is going south of the border. Money is going from Manitoba, south of the border, to be invested. Why are Manitobans doing that; why are they not investing at home in Manitoba and creating jobs in Manitoba? Those are areas, Mr.

Chairman, that I suggest to the Minister of Labour that if she is, and I would expect she would be, interested in devel oping new em plo ym ent opportunitie s in Manitoba and retaining employment opportunities in Manitoba that she should investigate and she should find out why those are happening so that more jobs will not be lost to Manitobans. We heard from the Minister that through the Research and Planning Department tha t unemp loy ment is expected to be maintained at 10.3 percent for the balance of this year.

The Manitoba actual rate is, according to the latest statistics, 10 .8, so there may very well be a small reduction but there will still be well over 50,000 people unemployed in Manitoba. The 1636

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 future prosperity in Manitoba, in jobs in Manitoba, is going to depend, Mr. Chairman, on the development of permanent jobs in the private sector.

I have to emphasize again that the tax regime, the payroll tax, the reasons why private investment is not coming to Manitoba, is leaving Manitoba, are things that the Minister of Labour in the interests of the workers of Manitoba has to look at very carefully and investigate very thoroughly and make sure these concerns are brought to her col leagues in Cabinet, so that actions are not taken particularly with respect to taxes that will hurt the job situation in Manitoba. Then, Mr. Chairman, we have the government's answer to this problem, the Jobs Fund.

One of my colle agues indicates that it should be referred to as the "fraud fund," Mr. Chairman, and I have every reason to believe that his description is a more accurate description. We would have liked the Minister to have answered our questions on that program and try to prove our suggestions and impressions wrong, but we apparently will have to wait until the Jobs Fund appropriation is discussed, when the government wants it to be discussed, which is the last item to be considered in the House. This problem is so serious that it should have been discussed now, Mr.

Chairman, because we all agree - both sides of the House agree - that unemployment is the major No. 1 problem for governments to deal with. Supposedly we have a $200,000 fund and we have heard in this comm ittee that well over $10 0,000 of that $200,000 is simply a continuation of existing programs. We know that, for example, there have always been within the Department of Labour special employment programs for youth; we had one. The former Minister had one last year. He changed the name to the Career lnternship Program and there is one this year called Careerstart.

The Minister acknowledged in her opening comments that it was an ongoing program but it is being funded out of the Jobs Fund. The Minister and the government - no doubt, not this Minister - but perhaps the political advisers of the Premier feel that they can fool the people as they put large ads in the paper that say the Jobs Fund makes it happen. This is with respect to the Careerstart Program. Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is it is just a continuing program; it's an important program, it should have been continued.

I don't believe for one moment that the Minister of Labour would have contempla ted introducing a set of Estima tes into this Legislature that would not have included a special employment program for unemp loyed young people when the rate of unemployment in March of 1983 is 18 .3 percent, well over 20,000 young people unemplo yed and predictions tha t it's going to go up to 25 ,000 young people unemployed. If the Minister is going to tell us that she was thinking of doing that, I would find it very difficult to believe. I don't think she would and that just goes to prove, Mr.

Chairman, that an emplo yment program for young people was and is and, while this crisis of unemployment continues, will always be an ongoing program of the Department of Labour Estimates. So to suggest that it's the Jobs Fund that makes it happen, some new initiative on the part of the Premier and the NDP Government and this Minister, is absolutely wrong, Mr. Chairman, and it's a blatant attempt to persuade the people of Manitoba that this government is doing something new, something different and something additional. Mr.

Chairman, we have learned that the Jobs Fund includes the construction of an addition to the Red River Community College which is simply an ongoing capital works project. We have heard that the Jobs Fund includes money for the Rural Water and Sewer Services Program which is simply an ongoing continuing program in that department.

We learned yesterday that the Manitoba Employment Action Program which the Minister had announced initially back last November and actually was announced in conjunction with the former Minister of Labour's Youth Employment Program last spring, the funding would now be transferred into the Jobs Fund $3 million for 19 83-84.

We learned that the NEED Program funding, the agreement between the Federal and the Provincial Governments, is to be funded totally out of the Jobs Fund and may well go up to $12 million - an agreement that was signed between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government last December or early January. So we find that this government has taken ongoing programs, ongoing comm itments, and lumped them all together and is att emptin g to call them something new. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I know there's an old saying, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. I don't think that Manitobans, Mr. Chairman, are going to be compl etely fooled by this. Apart from the attempt to fool the people of Manitoba by taking ongoing programs and calling them something new, a new initiative, there is a lack of any emphasis whatsoever on the private sector. We know, Mr.

Chairman, it's the private sector where the permanent lasting jobs for Manitobans are going to be created, not in make-work jobs, which I have said are im portant in ti mes of a crisis of unemployment, but in the Throne Speech, in the Budget, all of which this Minister has an opportunity for a contribution to make, the private sector is left out of it. The whole em phasis of the Min ister and the government are on make-work, short-term job creation projects.

You can do that for a certain period of time, but if you want to create the long-term lasting jobs for Manitobans, it's going to have to be in the private sector. The Minister of Labour is going to have to turn her attention to bringing her influence to bear upon the actions of her col leagues in government and her own department to ensure that this government is doing everything it can to encourage and support permanent jobs in the private sector. Mr. Chairman, the situation among all ages of people unemployed is serious.

It certainly is a crisis where we have the students that are in our col leges, in our universities, simply continuing on in school each year, not because they don't want to go out and work, simply because they can't find job s. That has to be the biggest rea son, Mr. Chairman, for the large num bers of enrolments at our universities, schools and col leges.

The Minister, I believe in fact, perhaps acknowledged it directly, certainly confirmed the enrolment statistics during these Estimates; that is, when young people, let alone people that have been on the job market for some time and there are many many of those, lose hope in the future, Mr. Chairman. our democratic society 1637

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 is in a great deal of difficulty. So, Mr. Chairman, we have concern, continued concern, about the rate of unemplo yment in Man itoba, even recognizing the position of the Province of Manitoba relative to other provinces. There is certainly no mention made of national factors or national circu mstanc es in the prom ises that the NOP made to the electorate in the fall of 19 81, when the First Mini ster guara nteed a bright future for the people of Manitoba under an NOP Government, when they prom ised job security, when they prom ised to stop the layoffs. Mr.

Chairman, what we had during those years is nothing compared to what has taken place under this government. We did, indeed, create well over 30,000 new jobs in the pri vate sector, and in the shor t term of this government, unemployment has increased by almost 30,000, almost the same number, Mr. Chairman. That is a devastating indication of what the promises of the NOP Government and the First Minister and the NOP Party made in the fall of 19 81. The Member for Thompson indicates that those statistics are nonsense. I suggest to him, Mr.

Chairman, through you that he simply consult the admin istration and this department. They will confirm the fact that all of th ose jobs were created un der a Prog ressive Conservative Government. He knows very well, simply by looking at the unemployment statistics, that there are almost 30,000 more unemplo yed people under the NOP Government since the day that they took office. That's absolutely contrary to the promises that this government, this NOP Party, made in the fall of 198 1. Mr.

Chairman, the difficulty is that the situation under this government and under the policies and the attitude of this Minister and the NOP Government are going to get worse. They may very well be able through a short term to create a lo t of ma ke-work projects for unemployed people, but they will be very short term. They will not be permanent; they will not be lasting. They will not give hope to the young people of this province who have been raised and educated here, want to get jobs here, want to remain here and raise famil ies here, they're going to have to look elsewhere for permanent opportunities. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I would like to remind the Member for St. Norbert that he has almost taken up his maximum 30 minutes. MR. G. MERCIER: How much time do I have left? MR. CHAIRMAN: You have live minutes left, because you started speaking at 4:00. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, this interest of the Mini ster in the priv ate sector is one of the concerns that we have, a very serious concern that we have, because it doesn't bode well for the future of Manitoba at all. Without those permanent jobs in the private sector there is little hope for the young people of this province.

The Mini ster has got to be concerned with creating an economic clima te in this province where there is investment in this province and permanent job s created. We are dissatisfied, Mr. Chairman, with the lack of answers that we are given by this Mini ster on the Jobs Fund, the inability to predict on a simple capital works project the number of jobs that are supposed to be created.

The addition to the Red River Community College, there's no idea of how many jobs will be created, no t even whether the project has been tendered, no idea with respect to the Rural Water and Sewer Program, when and where those projects will be done? How many jobs will be created? These are some of the first programs that we' re learning are coming out of the Jobs Fund and the First Minister has indicated we want to create jobs immedia tely, and the Minister of Labour who is admini stering the overall aspects of that program doesn't know how many jobs will be created. So, Mr.

Chairman, I have no alternative, but to move, seconded by the Member for Pem bina, tha t the Mi nister's Salary be reduced to $1 .00. A MEMBER: Too much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30, I am interrupting the proceedings for the Private Members' Hour. SUP PL Y - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, R Eyler: Comm ittee come to order. We are considering the Estim ates of the Department of Health, Item 5.(a), Chief Provincial Psychiatrist (

a) Administration ,

(1) Salaries. The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, some time ago - (Interjection) - Do you have a statement you want to make? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. The Minister of Health on a point of order. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'd like to ask the members of the commi ttee if they can accommodate the Director of Forensic Services who cannot stay with us that long. He won't be here tonight. I wonder if we could start with that and then go back to (a). MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 5.(b), is that agreed? (Agreed) 5.(b)

(1) Forensic Services, Salaries - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister for a report to the commi ttee on what is contempla ted in 198 3-84 in terms of reinforcing and improving our capability to deliver forensic services? In particular, I'd like to ask him about staffing changes or additions and about the facilit ies for delivering forensic services, both at the adult and the children's level.

For some considerable time, I think it's been recognized by many of us with some familiarity with the field that a new adult forensic facility is needed in the mental health and psychiatric care spectrum in this province. Where do we stand with respect to that need? What does the Minister foresee in improvement expansion or reinforcement of our forensic capabilities in 1983- 84? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mi nister of Health. 1638

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, to answer the question of the Member for Fort Garry, there is some talk with the Health Sciences Centre, and it is a difficult thing because of the overall work that has to be done at the Health Sciences Centre and the planning that's taking place, there is a possibility, we've been negotiating with the Health Sciences Centre, and it's possible there could be a free-standing psychiatric centre. If that is the case, there's a possibility we would obtain the present location that they have and that could be used for this centre.

Now, the staff that we have for this is a psychiatrist, the director is full time, another psychiatrist - that is under-filled - it's filled by a clinical clerk, a psychiatrist part-time four half days each week to Headingle y Correctional Institute; a psychologist full time; a social worker full time; an admin istrative secretary full time. The children's forensic, there's a psychiatrist full time, although he's now personally on extended sick leave; a psychologist full time, an admin istrative secretary, two of them, they're full time. We also hired two psychiatrists on a sessional basis. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, for some time it has been my experience that there's been considerable pressure on forensic services here in Manitoba. What is the condition in terms of volume of traffic? How many criminal offenders requiring forensic service are processed through this adult facility; this adult service area per year? Is that figure rising or decreasing? Do we have the capability of keeping up with it?

Are we nearing a point of explosion in terms of forensic services where there's going to be a serious breakdo wn in our capabil ity to meet this problem in the community because of a lack of proper facilities and staffing and resources and the ability to meet an increasing case load? My question has to do with the climate in forensic care. It seems to me it's been reaching a crisis point for some years. Are we at that crisis point? Is the traffic and the volume increasing? Is it threatening to break down the walls or do we have it under control? Is the volume diminishing each year? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Actually, Mr. Chairman, there is a slight decrease, except at Headingley. At Headingley there is a decrease, but there it is because of a shortage of psychiatrists. As I mentioned, there's only four half days a week. We're trying to beef that up. I can give you the breakdown in the two years 1981 and '82. The adult forensic service in '81 was97 forensic out-patients; in '82, 68; inpatients in 19 81, 92; in 1982, 11 6; Headingle y in '81, 31 2; Heading ley 230.

The children's forensic, the referrals through courts and probation services 19 81, 11 6 psychiatric; 78 in '82; psychological 72 in '81 and 36 and '82; psychiatric 7 and 7; consultative conferences 17 in '81 and 8 for a total in '81 of 212 and 12 8 in '82. Other referrals in the Manitoba Youth Centre, 43 in '81 and 31 in '82; Doncaster Centre for Youth 5 in '81 and 1 in '82; Agassiz Centre for Youth 8 in '81, 11 in '82; Other, 2 in '81 and 5 in '82, for a total of 58 in '81 and 48 in '82.

The followup sessions, the Manitoba Youth Centre 42 in '81, 16 in '82; Doncaster Centre 12 in '81, 7 in '82; Agassiz, 17 in '81, 16 in '82; Regular 34 in '81, 28 1639 in '82 and the other at 3 in '81 and 18 in '82, for a total of 108 in '81 and 85 in '82. Because of the decrease in referrals from other program areas, t he number of children receiving the services through the childrens' forensic services has also decreased. MR. l. SHERMAN: Those are a lot of figur es and a lot of statistics, Mr. Chairman.

I'm glad to have them for the record but there's no way that I can record them at the speed at which the Minister reads them into the record. I certainly will check the record, but on the basis of the information that he has in front of him, can he give me an overview as to whether the caseload pressure is building up in adult forensic and in childr ens' forensic or whether it's diminishing? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Well all I can repeat is that, in general, there is a slight decrease, not a heavy decrease but there is a slight decrease. MR. l.

SHERMAN: Is there a forensic facility, or capabil ity, or capacity at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, or is adult forensic located in its entirety at the Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg? HON. l. DESJARDINS: I'm told that the long-time forensic treatment exists at Selkirk. There are 26 patients there and the short term is at the Health Sciences Centre. MR. L.

SHERMAN: Is there sufficient physical capability at Selkir k for handling long-t erm, long-time adult forensic, or is there a need for a physical forensic capability to be built at Selkirk, or is there a need for some renovation or redevel opment of an existing building at Selkirk to be turned into a forensic unit, or do we have the necessary physical facility at Selkirk right now to handle the traffic, the volume and the pressure in adult forensic, Mr. Chairman? Could the Minister address that subject? HON. l. DESJARDINS: I think it would be wrong to say there isn't a need for a centre.

It's not planned for this year, tt,ie economic situatfo n, of course. I think one of the factors is that we're trying to do something about the recruitment of psychiatrists and other personnel that we need, which is very difficult, as we stated all along, talking about mental health, the programs that we're doing to try to recruit and even educate some of the people who will then work with us. So a centre would not be of too great value if we couldn't staff it properly and that's one of the problems that we're having now. MR. l. SHERMAN: When the Mini ster says, "staff it prop erly ," Mr .

Chairman, is he talking about psychiatris ts, or psych iatric nurses, RPN 's, or psychol ogis ts, or rehabil itation cou nsel lors, or commun ity mental health workers, or what? Or is he talking about the whole spectrum of psychiatric health care occupations? Is he talking specifically about requiring more psychiatrists than we presently have? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Yes, it is mostly psychiatrists but psychologists also and then we could cl,o with more

Tuesday, 12 April, 1983 psychiatric nurses also. I might say that we have a sub­ comm ittee chaired by our Director of Nursing who's looking at the whole situation and should be able to report fairly soon. That is the sub-commi ttee that acts also on the comm ittee that I mentioned a while back that we're working in all this field of mental health, working with the Mental Health Association and the other two groups, the Social Planning of Winnipeg and the Manitoba Health Organization. We're working with them and we should have a report some time in July or so, around July 15 th. MR. L.

SHERMAN: I don't have a documentation of such in front of me at the moment, Mr. Chairman, but from time-to-time one reads of tragic situations in which persons who are accused of various crimes, or actually in detention for a conviction ol various crimes, are driven to desperation as a result of requiring psychiatric treatment, forensic treatment, mental health counselling and they have been unable to receive that. The required psychiatric assessment and treatment of their condition has been unavailable to them and occasionally we have a suicide that follo ws as a result.

I'd like to ask the Minister whether there is, in his view, sufficient professional capability at the present time to ensure that psychiatric assessment of criminal offenders can be provided as required and that he feels reasonably safe in suggesting to the comm ittee that there aren 't shor tcom ings in this area that will comprom ise the right of criminal offenders to receive the psychiatric treatment that they are deemed to require. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I certainly am not going to say that I'm satisfied that everything is perfect.

I think that we've admitted that and we're looking at the whole situation of mental health, but we're doing the best we can in the meantime, and I said there was a sub-comm ittee chaired by Dr. Bankier that is looking at the situation and the manpower and the staffing, and I'm told that there exists now some psychiatric nurses who are on call for any emergency any time of day or night, so they would have the immediate service when needed, for emergency anyway. MR. L. SHERMAN: How important is it, Mr.

C'iairman, that we build a new forensic facility for adults, either at the Health Sciences Centre, or at Selkirk, or wherever the Minister wants to build it? Where does this rank in his scale of priorities? Where would he put it on a scale of one to ten? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I'd be in a much better position to answer that once I receive the report. I don't think it would be proper for me to comment on that. I think, all in all, probably in this field there's an awful lot more that could be redone in this field of mental ill ness. I think we're working in the right direction; it has not been easy.

The member knows, when he was Minister, how difficult it was for him to start recruiting, how to find a chief psychiatrist, provincial psychiatrist and then also to recruit. I think we're gaining a bit on that with some of the cou rses that we've had, some of the incentives that we've had, but we're still a long way from being satisfied. We beefed up our research

section and the first priority, they've had a couple of priorities, but the first priority is that they are now working with the agencies in the private sector and we'll proba bly, depending on what happens on that, enlist the support or invite the public also, those that feel they have a contribution to make and then it would be easier to say this is the direction we want to go and this is what we want to do. I think it would be premature and wrong on my part to try to comment on something when there are so many people that are diligently working and trying to bring in a report by July.

I might say that initially that recommendation would have been a little earlier but some of these organizations in the private sector or volunt eer organizations or associat ions changed their mind and decided to participate with us and they've asked, at their request, there was an extension of a couple of months to make sure that they could participate. That was granted because we felt that it was very important to have them work with us.

As I say there should be something in July and I would imagine that - I would hope that next year I won't have any excuse or reason not to at least, be able to give the blueprint of where we're going, what is needed here in Manitoba and what action we intend to take. MR. L. SHERMAN: So the Minister is saying that he is expecting that report in July and he'll be able to draw some conclusions then? He nods in accord with that suggestion, Mr. Chairman, I might just note for the record. An interesting question arises for me having been in the position that the Minister is in. I must say, Mr.

Chairman, that when I had the privilege of serving as Minister of Health one of the crucial, fundamental missing links in the mental health spectrum, psychiatric care spectrum, as indicated to me by my advisors and officials was a competent, capable, adult forensic facility. And in looking at the kinds of things that my colleagues and I hoped to do in the years ahead, provided we had the opportunity to continue in office, there is no question that a high-priority item was going to be capital investment in, and a capital commitment to an adult forensic facility. That probably comes as no consolation to Dr.

Bankier because he didn't get it while I was Mi nister and I'm not suggesting that we're on the threshold of turning the sod. What I am saying to you, Mr. Chairman, is that that had been elevated in my thinking to a high priority position on the basis of advice that I was getting from my officials. Given another few years in office that was certainly one area into which I wanted to lead the department and lead the province.

Now we find that apparently there is no similar pressure for or interest in or demand for a new adult forensic capabil ity, which leads one to conclude that there are more difficulties in the area of psychiatric assessment of social offenders when a Prog ressive Conservative Government is in office than is the case when a New Democratic Government is in office. I refuse to accept that, Sir, either as a political or a philosophical reality and I would ask the Minister what has brought about the change in priorities in interest and in attention on this subject? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I think that's - either the honourable member misunderstands me or 1640

Tuesday, 1;! April, 1983 it's a little unfair. I did not say that it wasn't a priori ty. I said that it would be premature for me to speak about that when we're looking at the whole thing and it's not a question that'll take years to do. We have different subcommittees and Dr. Bankier was recommending that last year and the year before and now the subcommittee is looking in this area, I hardly think that all of a sudden it's not going to be an important thing. I think that the member, the former Minister, realizes how difficult these things are to come about.

I can say that I have the same dream as he is having now or the same priority and for me it was many years ago - a psychiatric treatment unit for the adolescents and he carried the ball also when he was he was Min ister and he tried very hard, we both tried very hard, for years. I remember that it was announced - I think that's the record in the 25 years, about 30 Throne Speeches that I heard in this House, I think that I've heard that repeated more times by different Ministers and different parties.

I'm sure we were all very sincere, it took a long time and final ly, that, to me, was the priority at the time and it probably still is. Finally, after even the last fight that we had on the zoning and so on this is going to become a reality. So it's a long time in coming but I think that, at least, we are progressing. I hope that it's not going to be so long for the next step whatever we're going to do, we're looking at the whole situation.

The whole development at the hospital, the Health Sciences Centre for instance, I might say the same thing that one of my first priorities in 19 75-76, after the Clarkso n-Vayda Report, was psychiatry. I don't know how it came about but at the hospital, when the planning went down a bit in the other years and now we're bringing that priority up but now we're looking, as you know, we're looking exactly - the member asked me yesterday and I know he wants to talk about day hospitals - we want to make sure that we're not going to build any white elephant or something that'll be obsolete.

We want to know where we're going before we continue with the Health Sciences Centre, the tower, to see if we're building too large units, not necessarily just the beds but the facilities for the staff and all that. We're looking and I've asked the hospital to see if it would not destroy and damage their plans if we could look at the possibility of a free standing health centre, the university at the Health Sciences Centre and we're supposed to have a report on that.

That could be another step and then I say - I'm not saying it's not and it will not be a high priori ty, I'm saying that it would n't be qui te proper to ou t-guess the recommendations of this department, people that are working in it. The same thing as in Brandon, for instance, it's not a question of just the commitment for the future sometime. As far as the Cabinet is concerned, I have the money available for the tower at the Brandon and Selkirk Mental Hospital and there are some there that we're holding to make sure that we're doing the right thing to wait till we have the report.

I'm just hoping that the members of the Comm ittee will be patient. I want to reassure them that I can't see myself, I join the member, I can't see that any difference in treating them and we might agree on everything but it's not because we're members of different parties, I'm sure. I think that we see the importance of that and it is fairly difficult, it's not only in Manitoba, it's all across the land. If anything, I guess it might be considered a relatively new science compared to other fields in the medical profession.

That's been very very difficult, probably because of our program of Medicare, which has certainly been a terrific program, but maybe it doesn't lend itself to much of that because of the longer time needed. Also, as I said, with the shortage it is quite difficult to recruit the kind of people that we want, the qualified people. We hope that is a problem we can lick. I hope that we can improve it and I can commit myself to this commit tee. Next year I will not expect that you will be lenient with us.

I don't say that we'll have everything ready for the following year, but at least I'll have a better idea of where I would hope, we're going. I hope that I can enunciate it quite clearly the next time we meet. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for that reassurance. I would just ask him whether there is at the present time sufficent capability to meet the adu lt Forensic Services requir ement s in terms of psychiatric assessment of accused persons who are referred by the courts for such assessment, and psychiatric assessment of patients who are referred by the correctional system itself or by Pro