Social Services Committee — Department of Education and the Women's Policy Office — 5 August 2020

2020-08-05

Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees

May 20, 2008

Social Services Committee

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Felix Collins, MHA for Placentia & St.

Mary's, replaces Keith Hutchings, MHA for Ferryland.

The Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the Executive Dining Room.

CHAIR (Collins): The meeting of the Social Services Committee will now

come to order.

The first housekeeping item of business to get out of the way is the minutes

of the meeting this morning which is being circulated. Do we have a mover?

MR. KING: So moved.

CHAIR: A seconder that the minutes be adopted.

MS SULLIVAN: So moved.

CHAIR: Darin King and Susan Sullivan.

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the minister and her

officials. We are here today to debate the Estimates of the Department of

Education and the Women's Policy Office.

First of all, I would ask the Committee to introduce themselves. I am Felix

Collins, the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's, and I am subbing this

afternoon for Keith Hutchings, who is the Chair of this Committee.

MR. RIDGLEY: Keith Hutchings must be a fine man because Bob Ridgley, St.

John's North, is substituting for Keith Hutchings.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, District of Port au Port.

Good evening, minister.

MS SULLIVAN: Susan Sullivan, Grand Falls-Windsor-Buchans.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, the District of Port de Grave.

I want to welcome you minister and your staff.

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. REID: Scott Reid, I am researcher with the Liberal Opposition Office.

CHAIR: Thank you.

I will have the minister introduce her staff in a moment. Before we do, with

respect to speaking time, we generally are pretty lenient with respect to the

changeover of time. We usually try to keep it to ten minutes or so. The minister

has fifteen minutes to start off with. Members can refer to each other by names

as opposed to districts, if they wish. As well, I would ask every member when

they are speaking, the minister's staff especially, to identify yourself to

the mike before you answer a question.

Having said that, I would like to call on the minister - welcome, first of

all, to the minister and your staff - would you introduce your officials,

please?

MS HOWARD: Jacqueline Howard, Director of Communications with Education.

MS ROOME: Rebecca Roome, Deputy Minister of Education.

MS MACLELLAN: Heather MacLellan, ADM, Women's Policy.

MR. STAPLETON: Don Stapleton, Director of Finance, Education.

MS FUSHELL: Marian Fushell, ADM for Primary, Elementary and Secondary

Programming with Education.

MS COCHRANE: Rachelle Cochrane, ADM for Post-Secondary Education with the

Department of Education.

MR. HAYWARD: Rick Hayward, ADM Corporate Services, Education.

MS COLE: Ramona Cole, ADM, Education.

CHAIR: Thank you.

The first item this evening we are debating, I understand, is the items on

the Estimates in Women's Policy on page 20 of your book, and if the Clerk

could call the first clause.

CLERK: Subhead 2.7.01. Women's Policy Office.

CHAIR: Subhead 2.7.01.

I give the floor now to the minister for her opening remarks.

MS BURKE: I am ready for whatever questions you may have. That is my

opening remarks, I am ready.

CHAIR: Okay, very good.

I see this is going to be an expedited proceeding. Having gotten that far,

then we will entertain debate. I assume we will have some comments from the

other side.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, I was going to go with Ms Michael. I think she has some

one-liners. I did not have any here, just a few questions. I will let her go

with the one-liners first.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Looking at head 2.7.01., which, of course, is the Women's Policy Office.

They are pretty straightforward questions. It is just to get the information on

some variance, et cetera.

With regard to 01., which is the Salaries, I note that in the 2007-2008

Budget it was under spent and then this year, in the 2008-2009 Budget, the

estimate is bringing it back up to the level of what was the budgeted level last

year.

I just want an explanation of why there was under spending last year? I am

assuming that there must have been a vacancy, vacant positions.

MS BURKE: Yes, that is correct. There was a delay in recruitment and

therefore the budget would be reflected back up to the same level this year with

just some adjustment for the salary increases.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Was it a particular program, minister, or just general

administration?

MS BURKE: You can answer that.

MS MACLELLAN: It was primarily administration, on the financial and

administration side.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

In subhead 0.3., Transportation and Communications, 2007-2008 Budget was

under spent but this year the 2008-2009 estimate is much higher, about $90,000

higher than last year's estimate. What is the explanation for that?

MS BURKE: Well, some of our contracts came in under budget last year. So

that accounts for some of it. Then last year what we did, which is going to be a

removal now of one-time funding, was $10,000 for the linking of victims of

violence. What the increased funding represents this year is the additional cost

to prevent elder abuse and the provincial Healthy Aging Policy Framework, that

is about $100,000.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

The elder abuse program, that began under last year's budget, or

because you had a special elder abuse program, I think, didn't you?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: How old is that program now?

MS BURKE: Do you want to speak to that, Heather?

MS MACLELLAN: The -

CHAIR: Could you identify yourself, please?

MS MACLELLAN: Yes, Heather MacLellan.

We allocated approximately $30,000, $40,000 in last year's budget to begin

the development of a social marketing campaign on elder abuse, and that work is

completed. Then we have additional money in the budget this year to actually

launch it through radio ads and posters around the Province. We hope to launch

that on World Elder Abuse Day, coming up in June. So that is on target and as

planned.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you very much.

Subhead 05., Professional Services. Last year in the 2007-2008 Budget there

was under spending, and even this year the estimate is still not up as high as

last years estimate. So if I could just have a little explanation of what

happens under Purchased Services?

MS BURKE: Under Professional Services?

MS MICHAEL: No, Purchased - was I correct?

No, no, 05., Professional. I am sorry, yes.

MS BURKE: Under the Professional Services, again, that is where we hire

consultants to do the research projects - the evaluations and the surveys - and

some of the policy and program development.

A lot of our contracts, again, came in lower than what we had anticipated.

Then there has been a delay in two of our programs, the access project and the

DVD courtroom, but there is $45,000 taken out because of the reduction that is

needed for the linking victims of violence, as I had mentioned, and the one-time

funding required under the Poverty Reduction Initiative. That is $30,000 for the

first one, the linking funds, the victim, and the fifteen under the Poverty

Reduction to $45,000 reduction.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you.

Under 06., Purchased Services; again, there is an increase in the purchased

services vote from last year's budget as well as last year's expenditure.

The budget is about $260,000 more. What are you anticipating for that?

MS BURKE: The $260,000 additional is $160,000 additional funding for the

social marketing to prevent violence and $100,000 for the additional funding for

initiatives to prevent elder abuse.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Minister, would it be possible - I have asked this in other cases, too, and I

will ask it for Grants and Subsidies also. Would it be possible for us to get a

breakdown under both Professional Services and Purchased Services? I know that

you have it, if we could get copies as a committee, if we could get copies of

the breakdown? Is that possible?

MS BURKE: What do you mean, for next year? For what -

MS MICHAEL: For 2008, yes. I know that I have it for 2007. For example, I

have here that in 2007 there was $40,000 into social marketing; $20,000

translation services for Justice; $10,000 for Safe and Caring Schools, education

materials. Do you have a similar estimated breakdown for 2008, if we could have

that because we do have the breakdown for 2007?

MS BURKE: Sure.

MS MICHAEL: I did not go through them, but the same way with the

Professional Services. I have the listing for that. If you have an estimate for

this year, please, that would be great.

Then my only other, not so much a question, it is subhead 10. Grants and

Subsidies; slightly more this year, about $100,000 more in 2008-2009 over last

year, and last year it was all spent.

Do you have more groups getting the subsidies or is the money going up to the

current groups? Is the money increasing?

MS BURKE: The money has increased for $5,000 for each of the ten regional

coordinating committees and $5,000 each for the eight women's centres. So, the

funding goes to the ten regional antiviolence groups, the eight regional women's

centres. Then there is an additional $20,000 to the Labrador group to cover some

of their additional travel costs; $75,000 goes to the Transition House

Association; $100,000 to the Sexual Assault Crisis Prevention Centre, and

$200,000 for the Violence Prevention for Aboriginal Women, which leaves us with

basically $10,000 that is unallocated.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Okay.

If we could then also have the breakdown for the Grants and Subsidies. For

05., 06. and 10., those three subheads, if we could have the breakdown that

would be great.

I think that is all. I have a question, and I understand - it looks like you

are sort of equally giving groups the increases, but with regard to the women's

centres in particular, has there ever been an assessment done of actually

sitting and deciding what a core staff would look like for a women's centre?

If it should be two staff or one-and-a-half staff, actually look at the

programming and decide what actually the staff should be for a women's centre?

Has that been done?

MS MACLELLAN: Certainly, with the doubling of the money since 2004, from

$50,000 now to $105,000, it has given women's centres capacity to do more.

This dialogue has taken place with the boards of some of the women's centres

internally to look at the fact that they want to have an assistant. At friends

of Labrador West, I believe they have an assistant,

whereas it is not seen as

being so necessary in Gander. Each one of them, I guess, in terms of how they

want to set their work plan with their board has that opportunity to have that

discussion.

MS MICHAEL: Is it taken for granted that the money to the women's

centres is to go to staffing or is it supposed to cover other expenses as well?

MS BURKE: That will cover their expenses. That is not just staff dollars.

MS MICHAEL: It is not a lot in that sense then because you are talking

about staffing plus other expenses.

I guess all I am asking is, has there been an assessment of - and you are

saying it has happened one on one in some cases - what a core staff should be?

Should it be two, for example, and then if it were, how much money would you

need for that along with other expenses? Has that kind of assessment been done?

MS BURKE: It has not been done by the Women's Policy Office.

MS MICHAEL: It has not. I mean for the women's centres?

MS BURKE: No, we have not done - we do not have that type of study that

you are asking about.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

I would just like to suggest it might be a good one to do. I will just throw

it out as a thought.

I think that is all of my questions.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

You will have to forgive me with those questions (inaudible) because I only

inherited those when I was leaving the building.

MS MICHAEL: Roland, your mike.

MR. BUTLER: Oh, I am sorry. You heard what I said, didn't you?

MS BURKE: Indeed I did.

MR. BUTLER: I want to make is very clear to all those, I know you did not

have an opening statement but I am not here tonight to prolong this any more

then just get the questions answered that I have and not to stay here all night.

One of the questions I have here is pertaining to housing, and I am just

reviewing this as I go through it. Apparently the Labrador City Status of Women

and I believe also, it was mentioned, the Bay St. George Status of Women have

echoed the same concerns about how they are finding it difficult to find places

to live and so on.

My question is: I am wondering if the $1.4 million will address the growing

concerns that have been expressed?

MS BURKE: I am not sure what $1.4 million you are referring to.

MR. BUTLER: I cannot be of any help to you. That is only what I -

MS BURKE: We do not administer housing through the Women's Policy

Office. We would work with our funding arm of government which would be

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing through the Department of HRLE. We would work

with them certainly if there are policies being developed or anything or if they

needed a gender analysis or they needed us to look at it, but specifically as

Women's Policy Office we would not deliver any housing.

MR. BUTLER: Maybe the way it is meant to be, if someone else were here to

ask you this question to get it across - probably from your perspective the

women's policy would be involved knowing the issues that are out there,

wondering if the funding that is being put forward by another division would

take care of the issues out around. I do not know, maybe that is (inaudible).

MS BURKE: I know we have certainly invested in - I do not want to speak

for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing here invested in the affordable

housing. I understand, when they do a call for affordable housing, we have

certainly seen significant uptake in rural Newfoundland and Labrador,

particularly in Bay St. George, for that type of housing initiative.

MR. BUTLER: We all hear, I guess, about the public sector pensioners and

the question here is: I was wondering if your officer was involved in putting

recommendations forward to government, where this has been a concern of the

women just as well as anybody else when it comes to the public sector pensions

and the indexing?

MS BURKE: We have not been approached as the Women's Policy Office to

assist or to review any gender analysis that would come through Treasury Board

or the Department of Finance in relation to that matter.

MR. BUTLER: I have another one here. The government has been approached

to provide legislation for mid-wives and what is says here is that government

has rejected that. I am just wondering if the women's policy or your

department has done any lobbying with government to have this reconsidered.

MS BURKE: Well, we certainly would work with Health and Community

Services on that particular policy. That would be determined through that

department as to whether or not that is a road that they want to go down, but

certainly as the Women's Policy Office we would be very much engaged and

interested in having that dialogue.

MR. BUTLER: I am going to leave that now, and review the others later. We

are finished with this until then, aren't we?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: There was another one here with regards to the representation

that was put forward by the Office of the Citizen's Representative, about the

penitentiary for Labrador. The funding that is being allocated, do you think it

would look after the needs of the women who would frequent those detention

centres, and has there been any involvement with the Women's Policy Office

along that line?

MS BURKE: We have been involved not so much with the funding and where it

would go and how it would be set up, but certainly last year when the report

came out we looked at it and we did our own analysis of that report, and

certainly acknowledged that aboriginal women who are sentenced have unique

needs. I guess my concern is, not so much whether physically the location is in

Labrador and how we set it up and how we service it, as much as if we have women

who are incarcerated, whether it is at the Newfoundland and Labrador

Correctional Centre for Women in Clarenville or in a particular lockup in any

RCMP detachment, that I would like to make sure that the recommendations that

came from the Louis Arbour report, back probably in the early to mid-1990's on

the situation and the policies that were advanced based on the issues at P for W

in Kingston, I would like to make sure that as we move ahead, whether it is in

our provincial institutions or our lockups, that the basic premise of that

report is certainly upheld and we base any policies on a go-forward basis on

that. My concern is primarily not on location, as much as on the due process and

the procedures that are followed once somebody is incarcerated, like I said,

whether it is in a lockup facility or in an institution.

MR. BUTLER: That is all, Sir, I have with regard to the Women's Policy,

unless Ms Michael has any others?

CHAIR: Ms Michael?

MS MICHAEL: Well, it is for the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status

of Women. I think it is on the same page, and I think both are probably being

done together.

CHAIR: Yes, both items on that page.

MS MICHAEL: We are talking about 2.7.02, the Provincial Advisory Council

on the Status of Women.

I note that the grant to the council is going up approximately $100,000 over

last year's expenditures, and could we just have an explanation of that. I am

glad to see it, but where it is mainly going.

MS BURKE: Last year, basically, it looked like they lost money because of

the sale of the building and so they had money that we did not have to provide

last year, but we did increase it by $94,000 last year for the policy analyst

position. Although it looks like an increase and there was a slight increase,

technically it is status quo because we are only putting back the money that we

did not have to put in last year based on the sale of the building.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

I do not know, I did not have time to check and I do not think my researcher

did either, but is their annual report out yet for 2007? Because I know the

report is where I find all the details on their expenditures.

MS BURKE: That should be out and tabled.

MS MICHAEL: It should be out?

MS BURKE: I would have said it very confidently until you asked - shake

your confidence. It is my understanding it is.

MS MICHAEL: The last one I remember seeing is 2006. I do not remember

seeing 2007 but I will check and see. If it is not we will check in with you or

check online. I do remember 2006

That is it, Mr. Chair, thank you.

CHAIR: Any further questions on Women's Policy?

CLERK: Subhead 2.7.01, Women's Policy Office.

CHAIR: Shall subhead 2.7.01 carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion subhead 2.7.01 carried.

CLERK: Subhead 2.7.02.

CHAIR: Shall subhead 2.7.02 carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subhead 2.7.02 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the totals carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Women's Policy Office, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates on Women's Policy Office carried

without amendment?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Women's Policy Office Estimates carried without amendment.

CHAIR: We now proceed to the Department of Education, Page 179.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01, Minister's Office.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Roland.

CHAIR: Roland.

MR. BUTLER: Just some questions, Minister.

I guess the first one is with regards to student achievement. Can the

minister give an update on achievement levels? I know from time to time we hear

good news about different aspects of it, of our students at both the provincial

and the national level, for example, the Pan-Canadian test that was reported on

recently. I am wondering if, through your department, do we as a Province help

to cover the costs of those tests with other provinces?

MS BURKE: Well the PCAP that you mentioned, it was done by CMEC and, of

course, we are a partner in CMEC so there is funding in CMEC for that type of

work to be done.

With regard to assessment and student achievement, one thing that I think is

necessary that we do in the department is certainly look at how our students do.

We have intervals in which we test and we get that information back, and they

are fairly common intervals. As people would know, we do the CRTs at grades

three, six and nine, and we do the public exams as well. We use that student

achievement data for a lot of different reasons. It all goes basically back to

the whole issue of accountability and what are we accountable for. If we do not

have student achievement as our number one goal in the education system, well

what is it we are actually trying to do here?

We use the student achievement data for curriculum development. We use it to

help us look at the basic needs when we do up our teacher allocation formula. We

look at it to determine how we are doing in high school and how our students are

performing at the post-secondary level, how they transition from one level to

the other. We have used it in our Excellence in Mathematics Strategy that we use

and we also participate in a number of which is the PCAP now and PISA which

gives us some understand of where we sit as a Province, as well where Canada

sits as a country and where we sit in that level as well.

We certainly use student achievement at different intervals that feeds the

whole accountability of what we are trying to accomplish.

MR. BUTLER: I know, Minister, I wrote you a letter about this one time

and you did respond to me, but I just wanted to question on it again now. That

situation was, I think this young fellow had a problem with reading and

different aspects in the school. There was very little done all the way up

through even though they knew there was a problem there. Every year he kept

passing and finally his mother was crying out, I guess, to the system. This year

I think he is in Grade nine, and there was a new gentleman - I cannot think of

his name who moved to the school board office in Spaniard's Bay, and he

said: look, seeing as you are crying out, I know you are sincere and I want to

have a look at this.

When he looked at it, even though he thought by what he saw on paper there

was nothing wrong, even though she seemed sincere - as a matter of fact, I went

down and met with him on behalf of the family and he showed me the test results

that came back. He was utterly shocked and could not understand why this young

gentleman reached the level of grade nine when he did and now he is going into

high school. There are supports put there now for him, thank God, to help him.

He went all this distance, and I was just wondering and I know there is

money, Minister, announced, good money for everything in Education this year and

last year. I am wondering: is there anything there to help those at the lower

levels probably to be detected more? I am not saying the teachers fell down on

the job or who fell down on the job, but this young fellow went to grade 9 and I

was just wondering: is there more there now, because it seems like there are

quite a few issues with regards to younger people having problems with reading

and so on?

MS BURKE: One thing that that hits on - and when we did up the new method

of allocation for teachers one thing we did not change was the allocation for

guidance counsellors. That hits on how I am going to lead into what you are

talking about. In my opinion right now and in the direction that we are moving

is, I see the system right now really lacks accountability. If somebody needs a

referral for an assessment there is no system in place that the teacher enters

that referral, that a supervisor takes that referral and assigns it to a person,

that they have content guidelines that they have to follow and timelines to get

that report back into the system, co-signed for quality control and shared back

with the teacher and the family. That is exactly what we are trying to develop.

Now, whether this is true or not I hear it anecdotally, that assessments are

required but never done. I am thinking, well, who is supervising that assessment

to say, okay, this was requested on October 1 and you had until December 1 to

get it done? Who picks up the phone on December 1 and phones the person who is

supposed to do that assessment and says, where is it? The other thing is, it has

to be done to certain content guidelines and using certain assessment tools.

That is not that a guidance counsellor or an educational psychologist at one

board can pick and choose what they want to do versus somebody in another board.

We certainly need consistency that is absolutely lacking in the system. It

became very apparent through the ISSP review and we actually have somebody hired

right now who is moving us in that direction.

What I think is missing is the referral for the assessment and the supervisor

to assign it. The content guidelines need to be developed and the assessment

tools need to be consistent across the Province. It needs to be co-signed for

quality control and it needs to be made sure that it goes back to the parents

and the teachers in a timely manner. I think once we get that structure in place

now, I will also go so far as to say that I think maybe there could be

assessments that are required that are not necessary. In a case like that, I

also feel it is incumbent for that report to be assigned and for the

professional who feels that that report is not necessary to put their

professional opinion back, enter it into the system, have it co-signed, and it

goes back to the parent and the teacher as to why it is not done. That should

break away some of this anecdotal information that we are hearing. It should

also catch cases like that. If there is a teacher throughout the years or a

parent who has concerns and wants testing done, we should at least have a record

of what years that has been required and the results will have to go back to the

parents in a timely manner.

I hear what you are saying on that. When I got into the system I tried to

switch from, you know, being very much structured in a case management way of

thinking into a system that did not have it. The ISSP certainly brought that

back to light, that we have to get that developed. If it was based on that I did

not think we were able to move ahead with any changes in the ratio of guidance

counsellors to students until we get that piece of work done to make sure that

our guidance counsellors or other professionals who do assessments are basically

being able to focus on the work that needs to be done as opposed to sometimes

probably being a dumping ground for everything. They are there for a reason and

this is the core of what we are going to do because if we cannot get our

students assessed and get the needs done, student achievement is not going to

happen anyway. So we have to bring it right back to what we are there for in the

first place and that is to serve the student.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. Seeing I am on that vein now, another issue, and this

came up in the House about the audiologist at the Janeway, and I know you have

nothing to do with the Janeway. When I spoke to the gentleman over there he

mentioned that there was an audiologist at the School for the Deaf here in St.

John's. It is the same situation. I know, for a fact, the guidance counsellor

- this is in Amalgamated

Academy in Bay Roberts. The guidance counsellor,

the principal, the school board, the Department of Education, everyone is on

side. There is a little girl out there five years old now and has problems. The

guidance counsellor said we cannot do anything in the educational field for that

young girl until this testing is done.

At the Janeway, they do it there, but are three audiologists short - or there

were, I should say, at that time. The gentleman over there said there are other

people in the Province if they were trained but it had nothing to do with - this

is another case which is in the education system, everyone is supporting it and

saying this has to be done. This family was told this young girl would not get

this testing done, as it goes now, until she was in Grade 8, and here she is in

Grade 5; three years before they thought that she could get there. I am not

blaming it on anybody, like the education, but it just goes to show that is

another situation that is in the system, and because in conjunction with someone

else.

Why I asked you this question, this guy said to me, maybe the Department of

Education, if the audiologist was not at the School for the Deaf on a full-time

basis but probably not busy all the time, could they take some of those people

from the schools if they thought the guidance counsellors and everyone else was

saying this is a serious situation, it should be dealt with earlier. You have

not had anything along those lines, or could that be considered?

MS BURKE: Well, I have not had that but it absolutely could be

considered.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I guess the provincial wide priority list of

infrastructure, like needs for schools and things, is there such a list that

exists? I know it is out there but can that be provided, what the list would be

for the Province? I know money is not there to do it all the one time. I am not

asking for that reason, but I am just wondering, is there a list of what

infrastructure needs has to be done?

MS BURKE: There is a list that is generated, that is an exhaustive list,

that was created a few years back and I guess it gets added to as things are

identified. What the boards do is from that list they put in their priorities.

So based on, I guess, the year, the student enrollment, the condition of the

building, whatever. Although there is a list and there are priorities, it is

somewhat fluid because it would depend on whether or not you need extra

classrooms, or whether or not you are going to close a building, or whether or

not the building is deteriorating. We do have a list of all the work that is

required but we still depend on the boards. Like Central would have had that in

a public motion as to what their priorities were that they bring forward. So as

much as it is there it is not ranked, and we depend a lot on working with the

boards to do that particular ranking.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

The air quality issue that was ongoing last year - and I know I asked

questions about this in the House, and you did mention to me that they would be

dealt with as the need came up. I believe, I can be corrected, that this year

there was $2.6 million approved for eighty-seven air quality projects in the

Province. I was wondering, did all those projects come forward about that time

when that issue was ongoing? Are they the only schools, or is it possible there

may be other schools that might fall into the same category?

MS BURKE: Well, we had a number of projects that would have been in the

queue that we would have been doing. We would have also had a number of projects

that would have advanced based on an emergency level, and that would be

particularly, for example, Upper Island Cove, Western Bay, Swift Current. Then

last year we had Presentation, Humber Elementary. As much as we have work

identified and we are doing a lot of work in the roofing, windows, that type of

work to improve the air quality, we also have the enhanced inspections that are

being done through co-operation with Government Services. So, we also have that

other mechanism there in place to not just do the work that is necessarily in

the queue, but to go in and identify other work that may need to be done. Those

eighty-seven would not have come as a result - some of them would have been,

like the roofing projects that would have been on our list to be done.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Fire inspections; and we have heard a lot about that, I am sure, recently in

different areas. We have heard the stories about the local fire departments go

in, do the inspections and so on. I was just wondering - and I heard you explain

in the House how officials within the school, whoever they are, compile a

report, I do not know if it is on a daily or weekly basis or what have you. I

was wondering, once that is done and that is compiled, does all that from the

schools go to a school board, or does it come into the Department of Education

once they compile that report?

MS BURKE: On a daily basis there is a checklist to ensure that regular

fire safety practices are followed. That report is completed on a daily basis,

signed by the principal, who then in turn sends it into the school board on a

monthly basis. Then the school board - there would be a regional manager of

operations who would be able to identify schools who, A, are not doing the

checklists and say it needs to be done, or B, to be able to identify what work

from these checklists would need to be actioned and carried out.

I think that the board could do a better job in their accountability of how

they take in that information and record it on a monthly basis. The process is

all in place but it comes back to a lot of the issues I have around

accountability, and to me it is a very simple process. These reports come in,

you enter them into an Excel spreadsheet, you identify where works needs to be

done, you identify schools that do not have it in and you send out and ask for

the reports. So it is coming in, but I think there needs to be more

accountability at the board level to follow up with that type of work.

MR. BUTLER: School bus safety; I know the inspections are done through

another department, but where the issue has risen recently in P.E.I. and they

have identified some major problems up there. I was just wondering, through your

department, has anything transpired in conjunction with the other departments to

see that there may be additional inspections done at this time with regards to

school bus safety?

MR. HAYWARD: P.E.I. did not have an age limit and they found that a lot

of the deficiencies in the buses up there were for buses greater than fourteen

years old.

Secondly, we have two mandatory inspections a year on our buses and there

could be a third one. We think there is a rigorous inspection program. We have

invested almost $8 million in the last three, four years to reduce the average

age of a school bus. So we believe that the inspection processes out there are

working. We have asked Government Services to follow up and be engaged in the

P.E.I. process to make that there are no issues with our particular buses. The

issue up there was with the old buses, fifteen to twenty years old.

MR. BUTLER: I guess anything you do here would be in conjunction with the

buses that are owned by, I will say the department or the boards, whoever, and

the private operators as well, wouldn't it?

MS BURKE: Both.

MR. HAYWARD: Both, yes.

MR. BUTLER: With regards to the consolidation of the school boards. I was

just wondering, are they achieving the objectives government had set out at the

time when they were consolidated? No doubt, there was savings in money. I am

just wondering, all of that was reinvested in some phase of the education

system?

MS BURKE: Do you mean did we get the efficiencies that we were looking

for at the board level?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, once they consolidated.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, there were administrative savings realized in the

initial years, but as you stated earlier, government continues to invest in

school boards, through technicians last year, through the repairs and

maintenance block and through additional staffing units. So we have also

reinvested where there were deficiencies identified by school boards and brought

forward to government to have another look at.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, the Learning Disabilities Association - I know back

sometime ago they were trying to get a meeting with you. I was wondering, have

you had the opportunity to meet with this group?

MS BURKE: We have not been able to

schedule a meeting. We will, because

the person who wanted to meet with me was going on a six-week vacation. I assume

if she is back in the Province I will hear, but that was the reason why they did

not get the meeting.

MR. BUTLER: A couple of questions, I guess, in relation to the ISSP

Pathway model. I know there were seventy-some-odd recommendations, I think, that

were to go on a forward basis. I just want to touch on the other ones. I suppose

you can use the word rejected or put aside for the time being or whatever. Like

number, I think it was number forty-eight, development of a parent support

network for parents of children with exceptionalities. I was wondering, what was

the reason that one was not included with the others? More or less just an

explanation.

MS BURKE: The reason why that was not included was based on the fact that

we have a lot of support groups that are available for parents now, whether it

is with regards to say Down's syndrome or Autism or learning disabilities.

There are various groups out there now and we thought it would be important, not

that we rejected the concept because the concept of having parents being able to

access information and support is certainly something that I would support. What

we thought would be more important is to try to make sure that parents and

schools had information as to where they could find the support and this

existing research and have that support network available. So we did not reject

it on the basis that we did not think it was appropriate. We just felt that

there are a number of groups in the Province, or nationally, where parents could

access information and support.

MR. BUTLER: The other one, I think it was recommendation fifty-one, which

outlines and publicizes the appeals process for parents. I think I heard it

explained before. I just want you to clarify it. I think it was, more or less,

that there was already an appeal process in place. Could you just elaborate on

that a little?

MS BURKE: Yes. Under the School's Act there is an appeals process in

place. Up to this point it has not been used a lot. However, it is there. It is

in legislation and we should encourage parents or individuals to use it. I have

also asked the boards to make sure that the appeals process is known to parents

and it is outlined to parents. When they are given a decision, that it is also

noted that this is a decision that can be appealed and this is the process to

appeal. What I have been finding is that the word appeal itself has been used in

very different terms, and I have found this in some of the discussion I have had

around this. If somebody phones the minister's office or phones the Director

of Education or phones someone, they consider that an appeal. I have appealed to

the minister. Well, we have to try to separate that; that is not what I am

talking about here. I want it to be - just like if it is Workers' Compensation

or HRLE, there is an appeal process in legislation. It is in place and you

should use it. It would give you then an opportunity to be able to lay out your

case in a professional environment that the decision makers can hear both sides

and make a decision on it.

I have asked the boards to look over their policy to make sure that if they

need to redevelop or add on to some of their by-laws to make it more user

friendly because it has not been used, that is fair enough. I am not opposed to

helping it grow but we have to start somewhere with it and it is there in the

legislation. We really did not need to set up a second appeal process because

you would wonder what the first one was in legislation for in the first place. I

think one thing that I am going to be very much adamant to try to do myself, as

minister, is I often get stuff coming to me as minister, wanting me to go out

and solve the issues. I am going to be very clear that I go back to the people

who come to me, explain the appeal process and outline where they need to go, as

I would if it was an HRLE issue or a Workers' Compensation issue, but I think

that parents do have that right. If they disagree with a decision, they have a

right to present their side and have a fair hearing where somebody who is

unbiased can listen to both sides and make a ruling on it. I think that is

fundamental.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, and I am glad you mentioned the others, like Workers'

Compensation. If somebody gets rejected at Workers' Compensation, the first

thing they have is what they call an internal review, which is the same - not

the same person, I guess. The case manager does not look after it, but someone

in the system there looks at it. Then if that fails, they go out to their

regular appeal.

MS BURKE: Yes, and HRLE is the very same thing. The first process is an

internal appeal and if that - because sometimes, in all fairness, there can be

an error; an error in judgement, it could be an error in a case, it could be a

piece of missing information or something like that. That is not to say that

your first process, to have someone review it, cannot resolve it. I think that

is where it always needs to go, but when there is a fundamental disagreement

over a decision, that is when your appeal process needs to be developed.

MR. BUTLER: Recommendation fifty-seven is the one with Memorial

University, amend the requirements for the undergraduate Education degree

program, and there were two courses there. I was just wondering, before that one

- minister, you will have to forgive me. I am using rejected again, even though

that is not the right word. I am wondering if you discussed this with Memorial

University before it was decided that you would not proceed with that one at

this time?

MS BURKE: We are going to proceed in discussions with Memorial University

as to the fact that we feel these courses are necessary but we could not adopt

them as government policy because we do not have that level of jurisdiction to

tell the Faculty of Education what courses they have to offer. That would

certainly go through their academic counsel and their senate. We rejected it,

for lack of better words, because it was not a decision that we could make, but

it is certainly one that we support and we want to work with the university to

make sure that that is offered.

MR. BUTLER: I was just wondering: what processes are in place to monitor

the implementation of the recommendations that the department has agreed to

proceed with?

MS BURKE: Actually, I was supposed to have done an update on this last

week. Last Monday I was going to do a press conference but had health issues and

could not do it. We wanted to provide an update on that, but that is certainly

something that we are monitoring within the department and the progress. There

are action plans. Based on all of the recommendations that we have accepted we

have developed action plans with time lines and we will be reviewing that on a

regular basis. We will provide updates on a regular basis as well.

MR. BUTLER: Mr. Chair, how am I doing for time? I do not want to hog the

issue, because there is a time limit.

CHAIR: You can carry on if you wish, Mr. Butler, if you have another

question in the same vein of questions.

MR. BUTLER: I have one other one before I go to another topic. It is in

the same vein for me, it is probably in a different vein for the minister.

CHAIR: Complete that one and then we will switch to Ms Michael.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Minister, from time to time we hear and we see articles from professionals

out in the field relating to where they see a lot of young people entering the

justice system, unfortunately, to people who have problems in the schools,

whether it is through disabilities or probably some of the issues like the young

fellow I mentioned earlier.

I am just wondering: do you see that as an issue and is there much of that

happening that you know of?

MS BURKE: Do you mean entering the criminal justice system?

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I do not know what their titles are but a correctional

officer at the Whitbourne Centre in there made a comment on that back in the

media some time ago, that he felt the ones who were coming through their system

were people who were falling through the cracks, if you want, with the

educational system, for whatever reasons. He was tying the two of it together. I

was just wondering what your comments were on that.

MS BURKE: My comment on that is the fact that I do not necessarily feel

the educational system would lead somebody into criminal behaviour. I would

think that by the time a young person ends up in Whitbourne - and we had

thirteen, on the average, in our school out there last year - that there are

probably other issues at play. I would think, if we looked at them it could be

anything from family issues, there could be victims of violence, there could be

children who witness violence within their homes or have been victims

themselves. There are also issues related to addictions, whether the young

person is using or whether the young person is exposed to those issues. There

are issues around parenting. Regardless of the age, if you are a parent you have

to parent. There are issues a lot of times with regard to parenting, for not

providing adequate supervision, certainly not providing supervision for

homework, for appropriate budgeting within the home and meeting the needs of the

young person.

There are a number of things sometimes at play and I would think if we took

any particular young person who went through Whitbourne and we examined

different areas of their life, I would be very, very surprised if the only

factor that seemed to have a negative slant to it all was their education. I am

not saying that the education system and the frustrations they feel within it do

not necessarily add to all of the issues that bring them into the criminal

justice system, but I would be very surprised if we could break it down and find

out it is the only factor that led to criminal activity.

MR. BUTLER: Let me assure you, I did not mean to say that the educational

system was what brought them to the Whitbourne Centre. I will just go back to

the young fellow I mentioned earlier who had this problem going up through

school. Only for the strict parents that he had, he would have went the wayward

way, if I can use that terminology, because he was so let down with what he

could accomplish in school because his peers were at a certain level and he

could not get there. Only for his parents he would have probably gone out and

gotten into the other issues you are referring to, whether it be the drugs or

whatever, and ended up there that way. That is where I was coming from.

MS BURKE: I guess there are a lot of social issues. You just cannot

isolate it to one area.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

CHAIR: Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

Minister, I am going to sort of revert to the Estimates and work from the

Estimates, and then if I have any general questions that will come up for the

most part under that.

Beginning with head 1.2.01, Executive Support and looking at subhead 01,

Salaries: in Budget 2007-2008, the budget was revised up by approximately

$120,000 over the revision and then it looks like it is being maintained at that

level with a bit more added on in this year's Budget. Could we just have an

explanation of that revision that occurred? It looks like there were new staff

added.

MS BURKE: Yes, we added an additional ADM position, Ramona Cole, who is

doing the Grenfell review for us, and a Policy Analyst as well to assist us with

the Grenfell review. There was also a severance payout there to an employee.

That was a substantial payout. Then the estimates are up for this year. Again it

is reclassification and some step increments and the ADM position for the

Grenfell review.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Moving over to head 2.1.01, Administrative Support: there is not a lot there,

actually. That is actually pretty straightforward.

Head 2.1.02, Assistance to Education Agencies and Advisory Committees,

because the amounts in the other one are fairly minor I am sorry, I will go

back, 2.1.01, Administrative Support, subhead 10, the Grants and Subsidies. You

obviously maintain a certain amount of money under Grants and Subsidies, and

last year in 2007-2008 only spent $15,000 of the $55,000. What would the grants

and subsidies under this head be going towards?

MS BURKE: A lot of times there are requests that come into the department

that do not necessarily fit with some of our programs that are there, but

certainly very noble requests that come in that we are able to spend money to

assist with. It could be like the robotics team going to San Diego. It could be

something along those lines, some travel for a school. Recently an author

visited to do a workshop with students, and we will pay for that.

It went down last year because there is discretion used around that money,

and it was an election year. It is just a personal concern I had, that it could

be misconstrued as doing favours there, so I was really cautious. I put the

brakes on it, basically.

MS MICHAEL: Probably very wisely, I would suggest.

But ultimately the decision is in your hands, is it, about how that money

gets spent?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS BURKE: Now, the other thing I will comment on is, for September I want

to have some guidelines and policy around it, that it keeps in fitting with the

Green Report as well.

MS MICHAEL: That is a really good idea. Thanks for telling me that. By

December?

MS BURKE: September, for the new school year.

MS MICHAEL: September oh right, okay.

MS BURKE: I felt that at this point you cannot really change gears on

stuff that was being funded all of a sudden, but come September I want to make

sure that I have guidelines developed as to what comes in, which would be

suitable and what would not, and to make sure that we do not overstep what Green

is trying to accomplish on one side, that we do not do it on another side.

MS MICHAEL: So, if you start getting some MHAs supporting requests going

in that would be in the Green spirit too?

MS BURKE: Well, what I have always done is it had to come through a

school. If it was not supported as something that was there so I used to try

to work with that as much as I could, in the meantime.

MS MICHAEL: I actually mean that quite seriously, because I think there

have been some requests sometimes that have come to MHAs. I know in my district

that came from the school, and the request was met and they were very legitimate

requests. If I know that there is at least this little pot of money, I could

say, look, go to the minister and maybe you might get the money there. Now, I

will make my own personal donation but it is not what they would have gotten

before. That is how I meant it, because I have always had that wonder, well,

there must be some money around somewhere. They are small requests but for the

school it is a significant request sometimes.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Could we have what the expenditure was for 2007-2008 under the Grants and

Subsidies?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

MS BURKE: Do want what we paid out or what we rejected?

MS MICHAEL: What you paid out.

Now I will come to 2.1.02, which is the Assistance to Educational Agencies

and Advisory Committees. It says, "Appropriations provide for assistance to

a number of educational support groups and advisory committees."

Is it going up by $500,000 this year over last year's budget and

expenditure, so I guess I would like an explanation of that.

Then number two, this would be something else I would like to have and I

think the Committee, not just for me, if we could have a copy of who received

Grants and Subsidies last year, I guess, and what the expectations are for this

year?

MS BURKE: It went up by $505,000 because the T.I. Murphy Centre, there is

an additional $60,000 in there, $150,000 was for the literacy forum and then

there was $750,000 for the upgrading of some of our school fabrications suites.

What was removed from that was $130,000 for the Interchange on Canadian

Studies conference. That was just a one time thing last year, $130,000. The

Healthy Students Healthy Schools has a decrease of $325,000 because, of the

$800,000 that was put in obviously some has been used but we did not use as

much.

What is covered in it is the Newfoundland and Labrador Women's Institutes,

CMEC, Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Schools Councils, Newfoundland and

Labrador School Boards Association, some funding for them, provincial membership

in the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation, Newfoundland fine arts program,

T.I. Murphy Centre, Encounters with Canada, the Licensed Practical Nursing

program, the Atlantic Provinces Community College Consortium, Learning

Disabilities Association, Canadian Education Association, the Pan-Canadian

Assessment - I said the T.I. Murphy Centre - skilled trades, upgrading of the

school fabrication suites and the Healthy Students Healthy Schools.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you. A copy of that will be great, because it just

helps us to see, too, the kinds of groups that you are able to give assistance

to, and then you hear about some group sometime and say, you might get funding

under Department of Education, if you saw it. You never know. Then it is up to

you to make a decision.

2.1.03, again starting with Salaries, 01: the budget for this year, the

estimate, is about $100,000 over the estimate for last year.

MS BURKE: There was some reallocation of funding for two administrative

support positions there and it was down last year because of some vacancy and

recruitment issues. It went down because of recruitment issues but it went up

because we reallocated funding for two positions of administrative support.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

I think that one was alright. Under Supplies, I guess you just keep a basic

amount there. That is 04. That was $7400, as sort of your basic, but last year

you only spent $2000 of the $7400. I guess that is a usual thing that you are

going to be up and down every year with regard to supplies.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: The same with Purchased Services. Under Professional

Services, what would be the professional services that are covered? That is

subhead 05.

MR. HAYWARD: I can provide you the list of that. I had it up on my desk

but I do not think I brought it down here. It covered things like some of the

reviews from last year, the ISSP review and the teacher allocation review. There

were some things carried over from that and some miscellaneous professional

services that we bought. If you want a list, that is

MS MICHAEL: If you could supply that that would be great. Thank you very

much.

This is pure curiosity because it is such a small amount of money, but the

head 2.1.04, Administrative Support, subhead 07, Property, Furnishings and

Equipment, $1000, it just seems so small.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes. Government's accounting practices require that we

have a capital account if we buy a large photocopier or something like that. So

that is really an activity that keeps an appropriation there, just in case we

need to buy a piece of capital equipment. That qualifies as a capital asset.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under 2.2.01., starting with subhead 01. - this is the Community Access

Program, and of course this is for the establishment of the public Internet

access sites.

Under 01., I note that the estimate has gone up by $90,000 over the estimate

from last year's budget. It is down to $649,300, and the estimate last year

was $559,700.

MR. HAYWARD: Ms Michael, when we did the budget we thought we were going

to do some of this project through the Grants and Subsidies account, but as we

went through the program we decided to put the youth interns - it is a component

of the program, that we will talk about later if you want. We decided to put the

individuals on the departmental salary instead of just grant the volunteer

groups that we deal with, give them responsibility or download responsibility to

keep payroll records and that kind of stuff. So we delivered it through the

department.

If you look at the bottom line, amount to be voted, there is a small

reduction there, but overall, our level of support is maintained. That is a

50-50 cost-shared program with the federal government.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Yes, I noticed that.

Okay, thank you.

Subhead 10., Grants and Subsidies, which was budgeted last year at $1,077,900

and was revised down to $860,000. Was that because of getting less money from

the federal government than expected, or was there another reason for that?

MR. HAYWARD: There is a combination of things. We transferred some money

up into Salaries, as we just discussed; A and B, the federal government. It is a

50-50 cost-sharing arrangement with the federal government. We budgeted $650,000

and the federal government came in at $549,000. So the federal government has

been decreasing its commitment to this initiative.

MS MICHAEL: You may as well stay there on the mike because it is related.

Is that why in this budget it is estimated $800,000, for the same reason?

MR. HAYWARD: That is correct.

MS MICHAEL: Could we have a list again of those grants and subsidies for

this?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Now we move into head 3.1.01., which is Teaching Services. It is interesting;

I note that the grants to the school boards in 2007-2008 were about $4.3 million

less than what had been estimated. Well, I will ask that question first. I

wonder why that was.

MS BURKE: That was because some of the pay periods were lower than was

estimated and it could be some recruitment issues, but on that level of

budgeting that was probably fairly close with what we did. If you had a new

teacher coming on versus a more senior teacher, there would have been variances

in the salary. That is all that would have accounted for.

MS MICHAEL: Right, salary variance and recruitment.

Thank you.

Then, this year it is up $16 million more than in 2007-2008, over the

expenditure of 2007-2008.

MS BURKE: We anticipate that with our new allocation formula that there

will actually be more teachers in the Province.

MS MICHAEL: Right, that is what I figured.

For my information, Employee Benefits, in almost every department and

sometimes within departments, there are different meanings for Employee

Benefits. What does Employee Benefits mean here?

MR. HAYWARD: In this particular case, this relates to CPP, EI, Group

Medical, Group Life, et cetera.

MS MICHAEL: Salary related benefits. I think this is the first time that

actually has been the reason for it, out of all the times I have asked.

MR. HAYWARD: In the rest of government, for salaries for us people here,

it is budgeted in the Department of Finance, the EI, CPP, et cetera. When you do

the estimates you might see it in the Department of Finance.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

The Newfoundland School for the Deaf under spent by $151,000 in 2007-2008 but

I note you are still estimating the same budget as last year. What would have

been the reason for the under expenditure?

MS BURKE: That would have been some vacant positions tied to recruiting.

MS MICHAEL: Minister, some teachers who are teaching at Gonzaga to deal

with the students who come in from the School for the Deaf, are they classified

under Gonzaga or under the School for the Deaf?

MS BURKE: No, the School for the Deaf. That is an actual teacher from the

School for the Deaf who goes up. The teacher who actually teaches the course is

the same teacher who is in Gonzaga, so that is under the board, but there is the

additional support of the teacher from the School for the Deaf who goes into the

school with the students.

MS MICHAEL: Right. It is just one teacher, isn't it?

MS BURKE: It is two teachers and an interpreter.

MS MICHAEL: Two teachers and an interpreter. Okay.

Thank you.

All right, 3.1.02., School Board Operations; I notice under subhead 06.,

Purchased Services, that it is up by $200,000 in the estimates for this year.

MS BURKE: That was based on their insurance premiums, an increase in

their insurance premiums.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Thank you.

Then under subhead 09., Allowances and Assistance, you have $132,000

estimated in both last year and this year but only $43,000 was spent, and I am

presuming that is the allowance and assistance for students who are required to

live away from home, but only $43,000 last year.

MS BURKE: Yes, the base budget is $132,000 and $43,000 was - that was we

provided some increases in that actual amount last year. That is strictly due to

the lack of take up on that.

I will give an example, Grand Bruit, there are two students there now

receiving a bursary who have gone on to high school, but when they finish high

school there will be no further bursaries going to the students because there

are no students left in the school.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: So, that could fluctuate, depending on the school and where it

feeds into, but at this point in time it is really based on some of these very

small schools that are basically phasing out.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Now, when we get to it later - because I cannot remember exactly which head

it is - I think that the Distance Learning is going up though, that budget is

going up. Are those two things related in anyway?

MS BURKE: No.

MS MICHAEL: They are not? Okay. So you do not have people who are not

going out to school because of Distance Learning? There is not a direct

correlation?

MS BURKE: No. I would think that some of the students who go out to other

schools probably go to the other schools and still do courses on Distance

Learning.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: These are very remote communities where we probably would not

be able to set up the services; despite the fact we can reach so many places

with Distance Learning.

MS MICHAEL: That's right, yes.

Grand Bruit, I would imagine you cannot, can you?

MS BURKE: No.

MS MICHAEL: No.

Okay, thank you.

I think the rest of that is pretty straightforward. I just want to check and

make sure.

Under 3.1.02.10., Grants and Subsidies; I notice that the grants and

subsidies for Student Assistants is up by $508,000 over last year's budget.

MS BURKE: That was an increase based on the new method to allocate to the

districts. We added the additional 4 per cent to that, and despite the declining

enrolment, we have not cut back on that particular budget.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, so just 4 per cent across the board?

MS BURKE: It was 4 per cent that they needed in their funding - wasn't

it, Rick? - like how they funded the student assistants.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Okay, thank you.

Now the transportation of school children, it was budgeted no, it is the

same. It went up over what you anticipated, because $40 million was anticipated,

but it was $42,359,000 that was spent.

MS BURKE: Yes, that is basically the increased cost in transportation.

MS MICHAEL: Would that include the cost of fuel? It would not, would it?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: It would? So that would explain that. That is going to

go up again this year. I think you have underestimated the budget for this year;

not your fault.

Subhead 3.1.03., the Learning Resources Distribution Centre; last year in

2007-2008 it was $47,000 over spent over the estimate. What would have been the

cause for that?

MS BURKE: That was the additional salary that was required to get the

textbooks out to all the high schools.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Looking at 3.1.04., School Supplies; I am assuming that under Supplies the

reason why it is coming down so much this year is because you had a big

expenditure in last year's budget since a lot of books were being bought for

the first time. Would that be correct?

MS BURKE: That is correct, and there are a couple of other things. That

was almost twelve-nine, eleven point six for that.

MS MICHAEL: For the books?

MS BURKE: Yes. In addition to that, there was some money, $1.6 million

for the laboratory safety initiative and that has ended because we had so many

years to get that project completed. There was also funding for physical

education equipment, there was $800,000. We got that out and that is completed

as well.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Okay, great.

Thank you very much.

Under Revenue, under that same head, the Provincial Revenue, what would be

the source of the revenue?

MR. HAYWARD: That would be revenue from the purchase of textbooks. It was

lower than anticipated.

MS MICHAEL: Oh yes, you bought textbooks back. That is right, yes. That

is interesting. I had heard that it was lower than you had thought it would be.

Okay. I will just one more. Then I think my voice can use a break and you

could probably use a break from my voice.

Under 3.1.05.01., Salaries; again, the budget in 2007-2008 was $235,900 but

you actually spent $335,800 and this year you are coming back down considerably.

What is all of that fluctuation about there?

MS BURKE: That is basically tied to the retirement of somebody, the

severance and the annual leave that we had to pay out. It was substantial.

MS MICHAEL: Mr. Chair, I will take a break.

I am not finished but I do not want to go all the way through lines.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

Minister, under Teacher Allocations, I know we have heard recently that there

were some schools saying they are going to have less units this year and more

people saying they are going to gain a few units. I know you stated in the House

that this was not finalized. Many small schools are now being forced into

multi-grading and that is not a bad thing, I guess, a lot of us around this

table, or I did anyway, came from multi-grading for sure. Are there any

provisions for extra prep time for teachers who would be in such a school with

multi-grading?

MS FUSHELL: The allocations to the school board would not have built in

the prep time, but the boards, in planning their assignments to schools, would

have factored in the amount of time that teachers would require to prepare for

the classes in multi-grade situations. What the department does versus what the

school board does, as you probably know, is very different in that we allocate a

block of teaching units to school boards and then they make the deployment to

the schools.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, over recent years we have heard so much about the

fibre optic savings. Has anything kicked in where you can see savings within

your department, and if not when do you anticipate there may be something?

MR. HAYWARD: We are in the last year of investing I think it is around

$30 million to bring high speed fibre to 100 schools in sixty-six communities, I

believe. We have not fully implemented that yet, so we have not seen any savings

from that, Mr. Butler. I think you are talking about the big project that

Innovation, Trade and Rural Development are probably talking about this evening.

That funding is going through Innovation, Trade and Rural Development.

MR. BUTLER: I understand there are changes to course management software

from WebCT to the new package Desire 2 Learn, and I was wondering what the

rationale was with regard to that changeover.

MS BURKE: That was to provide a platform so that there would be a

consistent approach in the computer systems from the K to 12 system into the

post-secondary system. We also had to renew licensing for software so we decided

that we would go with one program as opposed to different programs. I think we

are probably the only jurisdiction in Canada so far that has brought the two

levels of education together under the one system.

Rachelle, do you need to add anything there?

MS COCHRANE: It supports the movement from the increase in distance

learning from K to 12 into post-secondary, so when the student is now

transferring they are using the same platform so they do not have to learn a new

technology twice.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, we have heard a lot about whistler blower

legislation and I know it has not come forward yet, but when it does will that

legislation also apply to teachers?

MS BURKE: I do not know, because I would have to see it and see how it

falls out and that. So, I really do not know at this point in time how that is

going to look or how it is going to read or what that would actually mean.

MR. BUTLER: Why I ask you that question, and I know this to be a fact -

hopefully they will be, in some sense anyway. I know for a fact there are a

couple of issues out my way with regards to things that are happening within the

schools. I know it to be a fact because I have spoken with the individuals. I

will give you an example. Whether it is bullying or whether it was drugs that

were caught on somebody in the school, they are very fearful of speaking out

about it. Some of the teachers - and I guess you understand, probably I would

too if I were there are concerned that, well, look this happened in the

school, how come I did not do this or do that to prevent it from coming into the

school? Then the other side of it, and I really noticed this more so with the

administration levels of the school, they are very concerned that it would get

out in the public and the reputation of the school and those people would be

effected. It is a major problem all the way around and I was hoping that once

that came in - like you said, maybe it will because you are not sure yet either

- that that would alleviate the concerns of those people and probably deal with

those issues more than they are right now.

MS BURKE: We will have to see how it is developed but I would think the

whistler blower legislation would be to enable somebody who saw something

happening in the system that was corrupt, basically, that they could report. I

am just trying to think. When I worked in the prison system I would not be able

to phone open line and talk about what drugs came into the prison that day or

who assaulted whom or whatever. I am not going to be the one leading the

legislation. I will certainly have my opportunity to review it. But, I would

think it is going to be based more on being able to identify practices that are

inappropriate, dealing with someone's job or duties as opposed to talking

about the day to day activities.

Now, I could be completely off base because I am not developing the

legislation, but based on this conversation I am thinking it might be a bit more

geared towards if somebody felt that services that were being provided, say

if we were putting money in to provide student assistants and the money was

going somewhere else and the student was doing without that assistant, to me,

that is the kind of activity that would come under that type of legislation.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Issues like I just raised here, how do you think they should be dealt with?

MS BURKE: I think they need to be dealt with through the administration

and through the board. If there is an issue of bullying, we have itinerant

teachers at the board level, we have a Safe and Caring Schools policy and we

have a manager here at the department. So, there are resources there. They

should not be fearful of phoning the itinerant teacher, who is there

specifically to deal with it, and say, listen, we have an issue here in the

school and we need some support around it.

MR. BUTLER: I do not know where the fear comes from, but my colleague

here knows what I am going to mention now, a meeting that was held out in Coley's

Point about where they moved the Grade 4s to Amalgamated and they had to have

new classrooms built on. They invited me there to show me where this was going

to happen, when the funding became available and so on. This individual said to

me, I suppose you have heard the rumour about the drugs in our school. I just

stopped cold turkey, to be honest with you, as if to say: a rumor! Because I

know for a fact, children who came home and told me, in Grade 8 it was, that

their classrooms were locked down for so many hours until the investigation was

done. That is where I am coming from with that.

It is sad to know that there is an administrator trying to tell me the

way I look at it, she was afraid that I was going to come and blow it wide open

or something, which I would not do in that sense. The fear was there, that she

did not want to let me know that this happened: did you hear the rumor? Well, I

knew about it for three or four days before that.

MS BURKE: I would not even take that as a rumor. If you do a lockdown and

a search of a school, and you have, I will say, 100 kids or 200 kids, well that

is 200 families that know; all those kids. To me, that would be whether or not

the board or the police want to issue a press release on it, but I would not

consider any of that confidential.

MR. BUTLER: But that is the way she put it to me.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: That is where I was coming from with the first question

anyway.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Student transportation: I know the issue of 1.6 kilometres

has been on the books for many, many years. I was just wondering: are there any

issues now pertaining to transportation that has surfaced recently in any areas

of the Province? I know it was being looked at by the boards and so on. I was

just wondering: is that an issue that has been put to bed, and everything is

fine out there in regards to that?

MS BURKE: The policy has not changed, and there may be some circumstances

where we have to provide it in less than the 1.6 kilometres, and then we can

offer it if there is courtesy seating. That continues to happen, but, no, that

policy has not changed and we are not looking at changing it either.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Minister, are there any problems recruiting teachers and I guess probably

I am going to answer the question before I ask it in certain areas of the

Province? It is like everything, I guess, in the more rural areas. Also, is

there any problem filling positions such as speech and language pathologists in

the department?

MS BURKE: Marion, you can speak to this as well, because Marion would

know this issue quite well.

The recruitment issues are sometimes more with specialist positions as

opposed to classroom positions. For example, in Coastal Labrador it was very

difficult to recruit guidance counsellors. What the board did was, they hired

two guidance counsellors who work as a team, who service all the schools as

opposed to being assigned to one particular school. So there has been some

creativity around how do we because we have to look at it. It is not about

how many teachers live in the community. It is all about what services are

available to the student in an appropriate manner. The specialist positions are

the ones that there has been some difficulty filling.

Marion, you can speak to this. I do not know if we have actually had any

vacancies that we could not fill. Speech pathologists was an issue for Lower

Cove, last year. Someone is in that position this year. There are some that

provide more challenges than others but I am finding it more in the specialized

positions. Marion?

MS FUSHELL: The minister is correct in that it is a specialist. With

speech language pathologists, there are no vacant positions this year, which is

a new era. There have been for many years vacancies in speech language

pathologists. Some of our more remote communities do experience challenges from

time to time. It is not as systemic as we sometimes think. The minister has the

authority to approve retired teachers in situations where boards have been

unable to recruit, and this school year there are 74 retired teachers working in

the system. If you look at that as an indicator of the challenge, that is 74

teachers in a system of 5,600. While the recruitment is a challenge from time to

time, it is not at an alarming rate. There is not a shortage of teachers per se

but a shortage of some speciality areas.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, one of the things which the NLTA asked for in the

pre-budget consultation process was a professional development plan for the

Province. I know that through the department, Memorial, school districts and so

on, the model for professional development was the envy of the country

apparently five years ago. I was just wondering: does the department still

consider this to be workable model, and if it is not already implemented when do

you think something like that would be considered to be implemented?

MS BURKE: I think right now, as Minister of Education, I would like to

see and continue emphasis on professional development in ways that enable the

teachers to provide the curriculum and be well versed in the curriculum that we

provide.

My focus and my concern right now is on student achievement. It is based on

the curriculum and it is based on making sure that teachers are familiar with

that curriculum, in particular as we switch the new math program and the new

textbooks. There may be a cadillac model out there of development that we may

need to look at, but my primary concern right now is to ensure that the teachers

have access to professional development that addresses the curriculum and

therefore student achievement.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, with regard to healthy and safe schools, I know

there is funding gone into that. We used to hear so much about junk food in the

schools and so on. That coupled with the funding to purchase physical education

equipment under the wellness agenda, I was just wondering if you could elaborate

on how that is working out throughout the Province.

MS BURKE: What we have done is we have certainly provided funding to do

upgrades to the cafeterias because they need different equipment where they are

not going to be using deep fryers as much. The caterers have certainly been

working with the school boards to develop menus that meet the food guidelines.

We have provided physical education equipment that supports individual workout

plans as opposed to making the hockey team or the basketball team. Anyone can

use a rower, a treadmill or the dance mats for the younger kids. We have been

doing a lot of that.

One thing we have not been good on is doing an evaluation. That is something

that, again, goes right back to, whatever we do we have to be accountable for.

Sometimes, and I think historically, it has probably been more difficult to do

evaluations for more social programs as opposed to physical, but that does not

let us off the hook. One thing we will be doing is making sure we are more

aggressive with evaluations. This is one particular area that I am really

interested in seeing. If we have it out there and we have staff assigned to it

and we are putting money into equipment, show me the results.

MR. BUTLER: I know last year, Minister, there were, I think - I could be

wrong - twenty-two requests for libraries throughout the Province. I was just

wondering: what is the status of that now and is there new money allocated this

year to help with that situation?

MR. HAYWARD: There is no new funding allocated to establish new

libraries.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Under the International Student Education program, I was just wondering if

you could explain to me how this program works. I know there is a heading there,

I saw some -

MS BURKE: This program - and Rick, correct me at any point. This is a

program where the school boards have developed separate associations with a

separate board of directors. However, the board of directors are primarily made

up of school board officials. They recruit students from other countries, who

come into Canada, who pay a fee to go to school. So that should cover their cost

of education. Say if it costs $15,000 to attend a school in Newfoundland and

Labrador, well, the family would then pay the money to this association - there

is an ISEP here on the east coast - and for that funding they would have access

to the school and the programs in the school. Probably ESL, that is not always

required, but it could be. That school board then, through people they hire,

would actually go out and find homes and supervise the homes. It would basically

take custody of these children, although it was not a formal custody agreement,

for that year.

MR. BUTLER: I know of families in my own area who have taken

part in the

program and had the opportunity to meet students from Mexico, Korea, or wherever

they all came from, and it seems to be working well. I was just wondering, are

there any complaints? Have you heard any complaints back? It would probably be

through the school board and not through you anyway, wouldn't it, if you heard

complaints back from the parents on either side, or their adoptive parents, I

call them, here on this side of the ocean?

MS BURKE: I have not heard complaints from parents who are involved in

the program. I have obviously, as we all know, heard the complaints from an

agent. I also have felt that there is certainly room for improvement in that

program and the structures that are set up.

MR. BUTLER: So, in other words, if someone had a complaint, whether it is

with regards to the program itself or, say for instance if a student recruiter

wanted to place students, that would be all through the board. There would not

be anything through the department itself?

MS BURKE: No. It would be through the board, through the organizations

that they have set up.

MR. BUTLER: Okay. How are we doing for time?

CHAIR: (Inaudible) further questioning in that line?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

CHAIR: Okay. Well, I will give you another five minutes.

MR. BUTLER: Did you want to go now?

MS MICHAEL: Sure, if you want me to.

CHAIR: We will give you another five minutes or so, and then we will

switch over.

MR. BUTLER: All right, sir. My God, you might finish me off.

The School for the Deaf, minister. Have there been any recent layoffs at the

school?

MS BURKE: Marian? I want to add to that after.

Go ahead, Marian.

MS FUSHELL: At the School for the Deaf for September 2008, there will be

two fewer teachers and this will be based on continued decreased enrolment as

well as increased integration into other schools in the communities. It is an

option that more and more parents are choosing so that the children can stay

home in their communities and stay home with their families. There have been no

decisions made yet about the level of staffing for the residence staff but there

will be fewer students staying in residence next year. So there is a real

possibility that there will be fewer residence counsellors required as well, but

these discussions are still ongoing.

MR. BUTLER: So the residence will remain open next year?

MS BURKE: There will be five, as far as I know, in the residence. Just

for a matter of statistics, it costs us $120,456 to educate one student at the

School for the Deaf per year, over $120,000 for each student.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, issues come up about this - I am after forgetting

your name now.

MS FUSHELL: Marian Fushell.

MR. BUTLER: Marian, when you mentioned about parents want their children

to come to the schools in their community, and I know what it is like because

back - I think we were probably, I was an executive assistant then with somebody

else, but there was a constituent of ours who had a young lady who attended the

School for the Deaf and they wanted her to come to the community. Naturally so,

who would not want their child home? Anyway, they tried to - at that time now, I

am not saying things have not changed now. This was at Ascension Collegiate but

the supports were not there at that time.

Minister, from time to time we ask you questions, and I know where you are

coming from with the full situation, but we get correspondence from students and

from parents. Some of the parents are saying, and I just want clarification if

you could. Some of the parents are saying: Yes, we understand. We would love to

have them home. A lot of them said we want them to come home and they take them

home, but then we get letters and correspondence from the students saying it was

the right thing probably for mom to take me home but I do not think I got what I

would have received if I stayed at the school with my own peers. I just cannot

pick up everything out in the regular schools, even though - I mean that is a

wonderful thing and I am not against that, but I was just wondering if you could

elaborate on that because the ones who are writing us seem to be saying: Look, I

am not getting the supports. The technology is there but apparently lots of

times they lose out on a lot of it, what they would obtain at the School for the

Deaf. I was wondering if someone could just touch on that.

MS BURKE: I want to speak to that. It was just last night I spoke with a

mother who has a student at the School for the Deaf. She commented, with tears

in her eyes, that had things been the way they were ten years ago as to what

they are today, that she would never have let him go. She had let him go when he

was five. He had no language skills. She had to relinquish basically being a

parent. If he had to go to a dentist or had to have a sick day, or see a doctor,

or was not feeling well, he had to stay with paid staff, and that is how he was

raised. It is only this year he gets to go home every single weekend.

At the same time, for the first time in the history of the Province - and

there is a big difference between people who can hear with cochlear implants

versus people who absolutely need to sign. The number of students who need to

appropriate services in the schools for signing, we need the School for the

Deaf. Otherwise, you can give all the FM systems you want but it is not going to

happen in the communities.

For the first time we actually have a student whose guardians have refused to

say that he has to leave the home. As a result of that, one of the teachers from

the School for the Deaf is now working with - is she still with the School for

the Deaf or Western School Board? - and doing sign language development in one

of the schools in Stephenville. That is basically because the parents said no;

the guardians said no, they will not send him in. They would not let somebody

else take of him. They felt he should be at home with them every night. That is

where it needs to go.

The mother also commented to me last night, she said that it is too late now,

that basically he has been in the school for ten years and he should finish in

the school. The other comment she made to me, whether fair or unfair, was she

felt that the staff created an awful lot of anxiety for the kids; always talked

about layoffs, always talked about closures. She said that she has given me

letters in the past that she was asked by staff to give to me because her son

would not be able to get educated anymore, would not be able to live in the

residence. Whether or not they create tension, I do not know, but I can

guarantee you one thing, those kids down there have enough stress having to have

a disability, have to leave their homes to be educated. I certainly would hope

that the staff do not encourage more anxiety and more stress for them about the

closing of the school.

That was her comment to me last night about the stress that is created a lot

of times. Maybe that might be some of what is behind some of the letter writing

campaigns that happen, I do not know. I certainly cannot verify that and I would

not want to make that assumption. I do know that we have to, as government, find

ways and means to make sure that the needs of every single student is there, and

we also have to respect the fact that the families are the best option for

children. That is who provides the guidance, that is who provides and cares for

the child and that is really, in the long run, who needs to be able to meet

their needs in the community as opposed to paying staff to do it.

MR. BUTLER: With regard to possible skill shortages and I know we hear a

lot about that. I have heard you mention in the House about the construction

trades, there are going to be other avenues open to people for training. I know

probably nobody has control over this but to me it seems to be a major concern

that - and yes, we have to train people. No one is saying not to train them, to

keep them home, but we are losing them as fast as they do get trained. I know

that is a trend.

It is unbelievable in my area, and I mean the Port de Grave area, as well as

Carbonear, is a very lucrative area. We are close to the Avalon. I cannot

believe the numbers of people who are giving up the jobs they had,

skilled-trades people. As a matter of fact, I visited a lady yesterday and I

said: Where is your husband? As a matter of fact, she is related to my wife. She

said he is in Alberta. I said what? I mean he was home here working all his life

as a carpenter, making half decent money in around the city, and just packs it

up and goes away. She said: Do you know something? We are going to see more of

each other now than we did when he lived here because I guess he was trying to

get every dollar he could and worked long hours and weekends. Now he is up there

on this turnaround bit, whatever they got, if that lasts. A lot of our young

people are doing the same thing.

Is there any plan in place? I do not know how we do it? I agree with you,

there are major projects hopefully coming on stream but the numbers that are

gone, even if they did not leave, we have to create some work to just get back

the people who were there before this trend started, and it is a trend. People

who have retired are leaving just to be a part of it, because it is almost like

you are going to Disney World or something. There is something there just

drawing them. It is sad.

MS BURKE: What I think, as much as we have people leaving - and there are

people going to leave regardless of what projects we have on the go here in the

Province, but one thing that we have to be mindful of is that when we start

moving into these projects, if we do not have our people ready and educated to

take on the responsibilities we will have to bring in workers, which is what we

do not want to happen.

In saying that, we have doubled the capacity in skilled trades at the College

of the North Atlantic, and a lot of people go away. One thing that we have done,

which has been very important for the Province, is we have an agreement with the

Government of Alberta. Prior to this agreement, if somebody went to Alberta they

had to register as an apprentice in Alberta. They would have to do their

training and go through the various stages of an apprenticeship and become a

journeyperson in Alberta. We have an agreement now where Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians can register here as apprentices, log their hours, bring them back

here, get credit, do their block training back here. So we have kept that

attachment to the Province, which we had not had before. I think that despite

the fact they are going out and they are working in Alberta and we are losing

workers here, as we move into the mega projects and as we begin to mirror some

of the work and have a similar type of work available and similar salary

available, then it is going to become the choice of whether you want to get on

the plane and go to Alberta or you are going to commute within your own

Province, because not everyone is necessarily going to live around these

projects either.

I think that as we know what skill shortages we are facing and what skills we

are going to need for these projects, I think that as long as we continue to

educate in that area and as long as people can be registered here, come back

here and do their training, they are maintaining their families here, I still

think we have a strong base that we can build on down the road. I think the

difference would be is if they did not have the opportunity to commute, they had

to pack up, sell their homes, go to Alberta, register as an apprentice up there

and follow through with the process of continuing on to journeyperson. I think

the dynamic - as much as no one can say for certain what is going to happen. I

think the dynamic, as it is set up now, is providing an attachment to this

Province.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler, unless you have another follow up to that one there.

MR. BUTLER: I want to speak on that, just briefly.

Minister, one of the issues that you mentioned, and you covered a lot of good

points at that point in time, but the key one I think is the salary. We can get

the projects but we have to get the wages up close to it. It is going to be

difficult. You have people up there being paid $45 and $50 an hour. It is

amazing! I think that is what they are going for. We can have the jobs here - I

know some of them are coming back, sure, and some of them want to come back.

Okay, Ms Michael.

CHAIR: Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Head 3.1.06., School Facilities; I am going to use my common sense on a lot

of the lines and pick up on ones that are the major differences. Subhead 05.,

Professional Services, in the budget for 2008 the Professional Services are

$682,000 less than in 2007-2008. What is the reason for the drop?

MR. HAYWARD: Ms Michael, our Professional Services basically covers the

hiring of consultants. When we need a roof design or a window project design, we

use consultants. At the current time this is our best estimate of the

consultants that we will need this year on maintenance projects.

MS MICHAEL: On maintenance?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes. The activities are broken up between alteration and

improvement to existing facilities, which is basically current account

maintenance. The next one, 3.1.07, is new school construction. On our

maintenance projects that is what we estimate now. That might change as we go

through the year and Treasury Board lets us reallocate the money, so that is the

best estimate.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Then, with regard to 06, the Purchased Services, that is going up quite a

bit, $6.4 million more in this budget. I am presuming that must have to do with

the renovations that are going to take place, is it?

MS BURKE: That is the maintenance and the work that we buy, the tenders

that we

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under head 3.1.07, the New Construction: all I am wondering here, because

obviously everything is logical based on what this head is, but could we have a

list? I can look up the Eastern School Board, for example. That one I probably

know. Could we have a list of what the plans are for this year, for the whole

Province, in terms of the renovations and extensions?

MS BURKE: We do and sometimes it is fluid, because sometimes decisions

are made throughout the year, so we probably would not have a full list.

MS MICHAEL: What you have at this moment.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: That would be great. Thank you.

Is there any new yes, there is $35.9 million new money for new

construction this year, is there?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Anyway, all of that, what is new and what is renovation.

Thank you.

Head 3.2.01, the Curriculum Development, subhead 01, there is quite a

difference in the salaries estimated for this year and the salaries that were

estimated for last year. It is even less than what was spent last year as well.

Can we have an explanation of that?

MS BURKE: There was some vacancy, some delay in the recruitment, and also

there was a transfer of one position from one activity within the department to

another. It should show up, then, that the position was transferred. It should

show up somewhere else as an increase.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, that is why it is gone down. Of one position, is it?

MS BURKE: Marion, do you want to explain that?

MS FUSHELL: It would be one position, and in that one million it would

also have included some one-time funding for an intermediate review that we had

done.

MS MICHAEL: Pardon? I am sorry; I have a difficulty hearing.

MS FUSHELL: Part of the decrease would be a salaried position that was

transferred from this division to another, but there was also included in the

budget for last year one time funding to have a review of intermediate programs.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, because it is about $120,000 difference between what

was spent last year and this year. Thank you.

Under Transportation and Communications, 03, again it is down in this year's

estimate by about $130,000 from last year. What would have been the difference

between last year and this year? That is subhead 03.

MS BURKE: Marian, you can take that one as well.

MS FUSHELL: The decrease is also related to the one-time funding for the

intermediate review, and there were also recruitment challenges with hiring a

consultant to do the database that Minister Burke referenced earlier for the

assessments and the wait-list. That has now been filled, but there was a

ten-month delay in the recruitment process.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Coming down to subhead 05, Professional Services, here we have a major

increase of $543,000. What is that for?

MS BURKE: Marian, do you want to speak to that one too? I think it is

regarding the Social Studies program.

MS FUSHELL: Government announced several years ago the development of a

Newfoundland and Labrador Social Studies course for high school students. The

resources are still under development, the manuscript has been prepared but it

now has to go to publication. So there will be an RFP issued to get the

publication work done, and that would account for that difference there.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under Purchased Services, subhead 06, again a drop of about $100,000 this

year: so is the amount estimated for this year more what the normal is and you

had something extra last year? Because last year it was estimated at $204,000,

this year at $106,000.

MS BURKE: There were two things included in that last year that were

one-time, so we took away some of the funding that would have been associated

with the database, and, as well, for the review of the intermediate program.

MS MICHAEL: So the same, relating back to other places. Thank you.

Under subhead 10 there was $100,000 budgeted under Grants and Subsidies for

last year, but nothing got spent. What was the anticipation of that $100,000 and

why is it now gone?

MS BURKE: Marian.

MS FUSHELL: Again that is related to the data base, and while we started

the project, some of the preliminary work, the cost associated with it was taken

up by OCIO and so therefore we were able to remove it.

MS MICHAEL: Great.

Under head 3.2.02, Language Programs, once again beginning with 01, Salaries,

here we are looking at the Language Programs. I notice that the estimate for

last year was $495,400 but only $335,000 was spent, but then this year the

estimate is up to $567,600. So, just a bit of explanation of all of that.

MS BURKE: Marian, you can speak to that program.

MS FUSHELL: This is a federal-provincial agreement, so therefore there is

variance from one year to the next because it is based on, in part, proposals

that are submitted by school boards, both French first language and French

second language. There would be variation as we go through the calendar year,

the school year as well as the fiscal year.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, and I see the federal change down there.

Under 03, Transportation and Communication, last year it was overspent by

$70,000. Was something not anticipated that came up?

MS BURKE: Marian you can speak to that one again.

MS FUSHELL: Again, this would relate to French first language, French

second language programs. I do not have an exact answer as to why that is

decreased but I can certainly follow up with you.

MS MICHAEL: Please, just to have an idea. Since you do not have it, it

would be good to know for your own sake too

Then coming down to 09, Allowances and Assistance: in this case I am not sure

what the allowance and assistance is for. That is my first question: what are

the allowances and assistance for in this head? Then 02 was under spent by a

fair bit, by $300,000 actually, I think, is it? No, $245,000 last year but back

up this year. Number one, what does that cover and why was it under spent by

$245,000 last year?

MS BURKE: Marian, you can speak to that too.

MS FUSHELL: This would have been part of the fluctuation for the

proposals and projects submitted by school boards for French first language and

French second language in that there would have been fewer submitted and/or

approved than anticipated. There is no reason to think that would be sustained.

It is likely to increase again this year.

MS MICHAEL: It is allowances and assistance for the schools to offer the

programs, is it?

MS FUSHELL: That is right, offer programs and provide funding for

students to have an exchange with students in Quebec, for example, or to go to

St. Pierre for an exchange program. All of these would be covered under that

line.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

Subhead 10, the Grants and Subsidies, it was over budget last year by about

$300,000 and you are estimating it at about $100,000 more this year than it was

last year. Again here, I guess, I would like a list of the grants and subsidies,

who gets the grants and subsidies here. You could give me an idea but I would

also like a list.

MS FUSHELL: These would include things like the Intensive Core French

program, the evaluation of the French Immersion and the implementation of French

Immersion. There is a lengthy list, so that can be provided to you.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

I notice the federal contribution is going up this year. Is that confirmed or

are you hoping that is what it is going to be? Under revenue.

MS FUSHELL: Negotiations for a new agreement are ongoing as we speak.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Subhead 3.3.01.01, Salaries: it is not normal to see salaries go down. It is

not gone done a lot, it is gone down by about $63,000. What would that be?

MS BURKE: The $63,100 is a position that would have been federally funded

through the Drug Prevention and Awareness Program. That federal funding, if you

come down, is not there. So that is no longer there.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under subhead 03, Transportation and Communications, that is down a fair bit

also, down by $45,000 from last year.

MS BURKE: Again, that would have been a result, probably, of not spending

as much as we thought we would, but then there would be an appropriation because

the physician who is no longer would have been a provincial physician.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, right.

MS BURKE: That would have entailed provincial travel.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, it relates to the physician.

Professional Services, subhead 05, nothing was budgeted last year, but this

year you have $120,000 in there. What do you anticipate that to be?

MS BURKE: That is money to the department under the Poverty Reduction

Strategy, and it is a project we are going to look at, kind of reconnecting

disengaging at risk youth. So, we will be doing some study in that area.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Again, this is more of a curiosity. Under the RevenueFederal, I noticed

last year there was some money from the federal government. Was that just a

one-time agreement or $90,000 last year.

MS BURKE: That was for the Drug Prevention and Awareness Program. That

funding has now ended.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, okay.

MS BURKE: That was specifically for that.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, it relates to the same thing. Thank you.

Head 3.3.02 speaks for itself. I think the School for the Deaf, that has been

covered, the information that came out there. Let me get my notes straight here

now.

Head 3.4.01, Student Evaluation and Scholarships: again, I am not going to go

through every line here, but subhead 09, what would the Allowances and

Assistance be for here in this category?

MS BURKE: You can speak to that, Marian.

MS FUSHELL: This line would be for scholarships for high school students.

This would be the Junior Jubilee, the Electoral District Scholarships, the

Centenary Scholarships, and also the Pearson College International Baccalaureate

that we award each year.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under Grants and Subsidies, it is not a lot, but what would these grants and

subsidies be? That is subhead 10.

MS BURKE: You can speak to that too, Marion.

MS FUSHELL: This would be a travel program that allows students from

within the Province to visit post-secondary campuses throughout their graduating

year, to get exposure to the university, Grenfell College and the college

system.

MS MICHAEL: Are they awarded to schools or to individuals?

MS FUSHELL: To schools, upon application.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you. What would the provincial revenue be? The revenue

for last year was estimated at $8,400 and estimated again at $8,400, although

last year it was $11,000. Where would that revenue be coming from?

MS FUSHELL: That would come from re-read of public examinations.

MS MICHAEL: Pardon? I am sorry, I did not hear.

MS FUSHELL: The public exams. Sometimes students would ask for a re-read

of those and there is a cost associated with those.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Under 3.4.02, 03, Transportation and Communications, the estimate has gone up

slightly by $30,000. Would that be related to transportation itself, greater

transportation costs or some other reason?

MS BURKE: We are anticipating some additional costs in this, primarily

because we will probably have staff travel a bit more where we are going to be

doing the public exams outside St. John's.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, right.

MS BURKE: There will be some increased cost reflected here in that.

MS MICHAEL: That would be related there, okay.

Under Professional Services, which is subhead 05, it is up by $148,000.

MS BURKE: That is in relation to Marion, correct me if I am wrong on

this one that we would provide the pay for the teachers who do the

correction on the CRTs and the public exams and the increase in their salaries?

MS FUSHELL: That is correct. That would be to reflect an increase in

numbers of teachers and salaries for the teachers on the marking boards.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under Professional Development, which is head 3.4.03, what is the difference

between the Allowance and Assistance and the Grants and Subsidies? Those are the

two subheads. What is the difference between the two subheads?

MS BURKE: You can speak to that too, Marian.

MS FUSHELL: The allowances and assistance would be the funding provided

for substitute teacher leave under the discretionary leave. Within the teacher's

collective agreement there is a non-discretionary leave which would cover off

sick leave primarily and then there is discretionary leave which covers off,

among other things, professional development. So that would be the pay for the

substitute teachers.

MS MICHAEL: While the teachers are getting their training?

MS FUSHELL: That is right.

Under the grants and subsidies, that would be money provided to support that

professional development, and through the teacher allocation model there was a

budget line for that as well as the ISSP allocations.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

I notice that subhead 10, Grants and Subsidies, is going up significantly by

approximately three million and consequently of course the allowances and

assistance is going up. There must be a correlation there. Are you deliberating

putting this up or is it that the expenses for the teachers to do professional

development are increasing? Are you doing it as an incentive or is it that the

expenses are increasing?

MS FUSHELL: There would be an increased level of activity for

professional development. Under the teacher allocation model the commissioner

has identified for us the need for professional development for principals.

There will be enhanced training and professional development for principals.

While it is more expensive for travel and other associated costs to bring

teachers together, there will also be an enhanced professional development plan.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

MS BURKE: There is $2.4 million for ISSP training.

MS MICHAEL: Pardon?

MS BURKE: There is also in that $2.4 million (inaudible) professional

development as result of the ISSP report.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Ms Michael: if you want to switch over for a while.

MS MICHAEL: Sure, that would be great.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

Minister, it is like Reach for the Top now, a few snappers.

College of the North Atlantic, the wait-list there, could you elaborate on

the wait-list? I do not know of anything in particular, but what I am getting

at, I guess: I think it was in the paper this weekend or maybe it was today

about the medical technologist program. There was a two-year wait-list due to

limited capacity. I was just wondering: is there anything being done that

probably can help this particular program, when we hear the word medical for

sure, right?

MS BURKE: This is one area where we have been looking at how we can

potentially expand the program. Obviously, it is a program that historically has

been offered in St. John's and St. John's only. What limits the program is

the fact that in order to be able to offer it you need to be able to offer

clinical placements as well. You only have so many machines and staff that can

do that type of development for the students.

We are looking at the possibility of expanding the program onto the West

Coast. Again, that meets its challenges too, because we know the Health Sciences

provides that tertiary care. There is certain equipment that people would need

to be trained on that may not be available throughout the Province. That is one

of the challenges with expanding that particular program, is being able to offer

the clinical placements. We acknowledge that there are only so many placements

you are going to get in St. John's, because there are only so many facilities

and so many staff to supervise them.

We see it as an issue, and we would like to be able to develop some plans to

have it on the West Coast.

MR. BUTLER: How are things going in Qatar?

MS BURKE: Good, I guess; lots of money rolling in over there.

I met with some of their Joint Oversight Board members when they were here in

October-November. I think it might even have been the same day of the swearing

in probably. It is being managed by that joint board.

In the next couple of years the contract will be up for renewal. We would

like to renew the contract, so we will enter into negotiations to continue it

there, knowing it is a highly competitive process. Certainly, they will receive

their direction as to whether or not they want to continue on with the College

of the North Atlantic or branch out on their own or invite others in. Right now

we are satisfied with the arrangement and we would like to continue it, if we

get that opportunity through negotiations.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

Are there any considerations to reorganize the College of the North Atlantic,

because you hear some people say that it should become known as a university

type setting?

MS BURKE: One thing that we did say in our Blue Book, one of our

commitments is looking at applied degrees. It is not something that we have

budgeted for this year, but something that we feel that as we move this Province

ahead with some of our mega-projects that are on the horizon and the level of

skill that is needed, and the fact that other community colleges have moved in

that direction, as we grow the college and try to meet the labour market

demands, that that is certainly going to be something very important for us to

do.

It is a commitment. I am assuming I will be Minister of Education throughout

this mandate, although there is no guarantee of that, and that is something that

I think is going to be a really positive move for the college system. I think,

as we do that, the other piece we have to look at is, if we are going to be

having applied degrees at the College, how do they fit into the university? If

you go to MUN, do you have to start as if you were a brand-new student and have

to start at square one or what kind of recognition can we get from one program

to the other?

MR. BUTLER: We mentioned earlier about the program to get students coming

here to our local high schools and so on. Is there any program to get the

foreign students to come to our colleges as well? Is there such a program?

MS BURKE: There is international recruitment within the university and

within the college system, although when we look at their funding here it is not

detailed. They each have international recruitment offices where they

participate in different fairs and do recruitment to try to bring students from

other countries here. That is also part of the immigration strategy. The

post-secondary system certainly builds on our immigration strategy as well.

MR. BUTLER: Grenfell College: what new investments does government plan

to make to enhance the college, what is the future of the college and do we see

it becoming an independent degree-granting institution?

MS BURKE: What we are doing, I guess, from an infrastructure point of

view, is the new academic building. We are also going to be putting new

residences on the West Coast. How we see Grenfell growing is that we see it as

an institution that will fall under the one Board of Regents as we have now, but

it will become independent in the sense that it will have its own academic

council, its own senate, its own budget and its own president. Therefore it will

have the freedom to be able to determine their budget and how they would like to

allocate their funding and be able to make academic decisions as well without

having to have that vetted through St. John's for approval. It will give them

more autonomy to deal with decisions regarding their finances and their

academics.

MR. BUTLER: Has there been any review or an assessment done with regards

to establishing a university in central Newfoundland?

MS BURKE: No. We have had discussions with a committee in Grand Falls and

I have asked, as they develop plans, that it has to meet with the strategic plan

of the university. We cannot go out and compete with ourselves, and I did not

want to get into a situation where there is a one-off program. The university

has a focus, has a strategic plan and knows where it is going. On a one-off, if

you give us extra funding, we will do this, but they never take ownership of it,

never grow it and never make it part of the bigger picture.

One thing: if we expand into central Newfoundland, I want to make sure that

it is part of that larger strategic picture. Do I think there is a role outside

St. John's for Grenfell, for post-secondary? Yes, I do, but it has to be part

of the bigger picture, not ad hoc plans that we are going to do. They need to

embrace this and make it grow.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I am wondering what has been done to address the

issues, and probably they have all been addressed. We know the Auditor General's

report - and I heard you make a comment about that before in the House. With

regard to private training institutions and the programs and how they were being

monitored by government, I am just wondering how that has resolved itself. Is it

an ongoing thing to, I guess, live up to what the Auditor General thought should

have been done?

MS BURKE: The Auditor General felt that we should follow the national

de-designation framework for private institutions which means that if there is a

certain percentage of student loans that are defaulted that we should no longer

provide student loans to that particular institution. Therefore, it would be

de-designated from the student loan framework. The problem with that, if we take

it as a blunt tool that has been put out there by the federal government and we

apply it - I do not have my stats here with me but it is interesting. You could

look at one particular college and see that 50 per cent of the students on

student loans do not pay back their student loans. Then you can further look and

see it is probably six students who have a student loan. So, it is only based on

the number of students that have student loans.

In our College of the North Atlantic or private institutions we have a very

high percentage of people who go through under funding from HRSDC or Services

Canada where they get their EI extended. When we look at the blunt numbers -

somebody said, well, 70 per cent of the students did not pay back their student

loan and you look at only five or six received a student loan, there is probably

a particular program that has an issue. Or if we looked at those individuals,

you know there is probably some valid explanation as opposed to going in and

shutting down the school, or no longer having them eligible for Canada Student

Loans. As a blunt instrument itself I did not think it was a satisfactory tool

that we would use at our private institutions.

MR. BUTLER: Is there any funding in the budget? I guess, if you are not

going to proceed with this, there would not be any funding in there. It has been

an issue, that service, with regard to the non-teaching personnel to carry out I

guess supervision that cannot be done by the teachers themselves. Has that even

been considered?

MS BURKE: We have a working group on that working with the NLTA, and

there are a number of issues. It is not as straightforward as we think, that

teachers have to supervise over the lunch period, because when you look at the

schools it all becomes very different. Some schools in central Newfoundland,

most actually, bus the kids home for lunch and there is an hour and half lunch

break, so there is no supervision. Other schools have an hour lunch break and

other schools have scaled it back to forty minutes so that they can get out

earlier in the afternoons. It is not a consistent approach. If all lunch breaks

were an hour or an hour and fifteen everyone would get a break, but schools have

actually chosen to scale back to forty minutes knowing that time is limited and

knowing that breaks are going to be based around it.

We will continue to look at it, because it is an issue. I certainly do not

like the idea that people may work all day without that break. I think that is

important, but we also have to remember that there is no consistency. Some

teachers who work straight through are probably teachers who have the forty

minute lunch break, when others get an hour-and-a-half off everyday. So it is

not as straightforward as bringing in one policy that is going to fit all.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. When I brought that question up I was also referencing

not only the lunchtime break for teachers to get a break, but even throughout

the d

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