Resource Committee — tourism cultureand recreation — 9 April 2014

2014-04-09

Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Third Session Forty-Seventh General Assembly Proceedings of the Standing Committee on Resources April 9, 2014 - Issue 3 Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation Published under the authority of the Speaker of the House of Assembly Honourable Ross Wiseman, MHA

RESOURCE COMMITTEE Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation Chair: David Brazil, MHA Vice-Chair: Christopher Mitchelmore, MHA Members: Eli Cross, MHA Keith Russell, MHA Sam Slade, MHA Tracey Perry, MHA Lorraine Michael, MHA Clerk of the Committee: Kimberley Hammond Appearing: Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation Hon.

Terry French, MHA, Minister Rachelle Cochrane, Deputy Minister (Acting) Robyn Hayes, Departmental Controller Mark Jones, Assistant Deputy Minister, Culture & Recreation Carmela Murphy, Assistant Deputy Minister, Tourism Melony O’Neill, Director of Communications Also Present Eddie Joyce, MHA Gerry Rogers, MHA Susan Williams, Researcher, NDP Office Graham Letto, Researcher, Official Opposition Office

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands substitutes for Sam Slade, MHA for Carbonear – Harbour Grace. Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John’s Centre substitutes for Lorraine Michael, MHA for Signal Hill – Quidi Vidi. The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber. CHAIR (Brazil): Ladies and gentlemen, I want to welcome everybody to the Estimates review for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. First, we will do some introductions and then I will do a little bit of housekeeping.

I will let the minister have any opening remarks, and then we will start with the Opposition. The process, for those who are not familiar with me chairing the Committees, is I go ten to twelve minutes. If you are close to finishing a certain section, I will ask if you are close, give you the few extra minutes’ leeway to complete that to keep your train of thought, and we go back and forth. I do ask that you keep it to the Estimates line financial parts of it.

There is some leeway, obviously, for the minister to look at it if it is policy related, but the Estimates are about the financial contributions and what is outlined in the Budget Estimates. So we ask that you keep as much there. The minister has the leeway then if he wants to outline anything relevant to policy as part of that process. We are going to start with Mr. Joyce, to do introductions, please. MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, Bay of Islands. MR. LETTO: Graham Letto, Researcher. MR. MITCHELMORE: Christopher Mitchelmore, The Straits – White Bay North. MS ROGERS: Gerry Rogers, MHA – CHAIR: No, sorry, Gerry.

Eli’s goes on – MR. CROSS: Eli Cross, Bonavista North. MS PERRY: Tracey Perry, Fortune Bay – Cape La Hune. MR. RUSSELL: Keith Russell, Lake Melville. MS ROGERS: Gerry Rogers, MHA, St. John’s Centre, and beside me is Susan Williams, Researcher with our caucus. She had to step out for a minute but she will be back. CHAIR: Thank you. Minister French. MR. FRENCH: Terry French, Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, and Minister of Innovation, Business and Rural Development. MS COCHRANE: Rachelle Cochrane, Acting Deputy Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, and Deputy Minister of Women’s Policy Office.

MS MURPHY: Carmela Murphy, Assistant Deputy Minister of Tourism. MR. JONES: Mark Jones, Assistant Deputy Minister of Culture and Recreation. MS O’NEILL: Melony O’Neill, Director of Communications. MS HAYES: Robyn Hayes, Departmental Comptroller, Tourism, Culture and Recreation. CHAIR: Okay. Welcome to everybody. I am going to do some housekeeping. Can I have a motion to adopt the Resource Committee Estimates review for the Department of Environment and Conservation? So moved by the Member for Lake Melville; seconded by the Member for Fortune Bay – Cape La Hune. All those in favour, ‘aye’. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay’. 76

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE Motion carried. Thank you. On motion, minutes adopted as circulated. CHAIR: I would ask, too, particularly for the officials from the department, if you are answering a question can you identify yourself for the record, please? Just to remember that, I know sometimes it is – you will notice the light coming on, then it will be recorded. Okay. I am going to ask the minister if he has any opening statements before I call for the first subhead to be discussed. Minister. MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Well, just a few things this morning.

A few things I wanted to point out that was good news in the Budget for our department and for the people of the Province, and certainly for the industries that we represent, which are a significant piece of our economy – which you guys are probably aware of by now. Tourism is providing now 8 per cent of the jobs in the Province. It is over a billion dollars in spending. I think it is 17,858 jobs are now credited to the tourism industry in the Province. That is a significant figure. Of course, the way it is in tourism marketing in particular, the competition is becoming stiffer and stiffer all the time.

We see the US now is marketing significantly in some of our target areas that we would try to get into in Canada. As well, of course, Nova Scotia is doing a significant advertising campaign, trying to bring people to their Province. So obviously it was important for us to compete. We have no doubt the most recognizable brand right now in the country, and everybody knows it. As you can tell, most people are trying to imitate it, including our friends in Atlantic Canada. We just saw Manitoba doing a very similar ad to ours.

If you did not see the tagline at the end you would think you were coming to Newfoundland and Labrador, it was so similar. So much so that people thought the marketing agency that did their ad was the same one that did ours, but that is not the case. That is how similar and how much we have been copied. So it is important, obviously, for us to keep pace. What we did this year in the Budget, we announced $2 million to marketing, and $2 million more in the following year. It is an increase of $4 million the second year out; $2 million this year and $4 million the second year out.

It was important to get us back to where we were. Last year we had a tough financial year. This year we are still running a significant deficit, but the third year out we should be back in surplus. It was important to us to show confidence to the industry, to show that we believed in the industry, obviously, and from an economic standpoint alone it was a significant piece of our work. There was $4 million announced to put back into the marketing budget. That has seen some great fanfare, actually. Our Provincial Historic Sites, we have I think fourteen Provincial Historic Sites now in the Province.

Provincial Historic Sites are unique in that most of them are buildings that were built in the nineteenth century. Heritage carpenters are needed, so it is a continuous maintenance issue with our Provincial Historic Sites.

Obviously, when you have so many buildings that Transportation and Works would have in the run of a year it is important that we have dedicated funds because TW does the general maintenance, whether it be a step fixed or a board fixed or paint and so on, but because – I guess when you are dealing with hospitals and other things that need maintenance, Provincial Historic Sites often end up down at the lower end of their priority list, and rightly so. That is why this $1 million over four years is dedicated to investment in the Provincial Historic Sites.

This year we are going to be doing in Phase I, I think it was Heart’s Content because they have their big anniversary coming up next year; as well as the lighthouse in Point Amour, the Point Amour Lighthouse in Southern Labrador. You will be familiar with that. Another piece that I am very interested in and very proud of is our commemorations, the Honour 100 it is called. It is a commitment of $3.4 million over a number of years, over four or 77

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE five years, and it is to commemorate obviously the 100 anniversary. What we are going to see there, you will see a number of battles that were fought, especially where the Newfoundland Regiment were involved. I think there are five different caribous, and we will celebrate them in different ways throughout the Province. There are two more pieces that I think are more important. One, we are developing an educational component that will be laid out in all the schools in the Province.

The other thing is we are going to see 150 kids visit Beaumont Hamel over that period of time from this Province. If you ever get the chance to go, go because it is quite an experience. It is certainly good that our kids are going to get there to appreciate it, see it, and bring it back and be ambassadors really, so that generations behind us do not forget the sacrifices that some people made. The Colonial Building is moving along with renovations. I was actually down there last week or the week before with CBC Radio and did a little tour. Basically, it is moving ahead.

Most of the electrical, plumbing, ventilation work has been done. Now they are getting into the interior and the outside. The outside is what they are going to work on right now. That $22.9 million project is fairly on schedule. I think they are looking at late 2015 or early 2016 and that will be completed. I always say that I would love to be here when we host the first event. What a place to have the Throne Speech sometime, where traditionally you could leave with the Mace, leave from Government House, go to the old Colonial Building and have a Throne Speech. I think it would be something worthy of note.

For anyone like us here, who are politicians, in the political history, it is a beautiful facility and holds so many stories. That is about all I have to say for now. Feel free to ask whatever questions you like. I am not too tied up. I am going to take some of the variance questions, but I think the staff will take most of the $1,000 here or the $2,000, the variances. A couple of things I would like to point out though. Many of the places where you will Salaries increased and decreased, most of that has to do with the 2 per cent increase and the $1,400 bonus.

The other thing I will mention to you is in several places here we had people retiring, so you will see it for severance. It is quite common when there are increases. In some of the salary variances, that is going to be a common theme you will see throughout. That is about it. Carry on. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister. We are going to get started. We are going to call for subhead 1.1.01 under the Estimates for the Minister’s Office. CLERK: 1.1.01. CHAIR: Thank you. Mr. Joyce, the floor is yours. MR. JOYCE: Yes, I am going to start off. I know the minister was hoping I was going to ask this.

Last year, Minister, on page 41 of the Estimates you mentioned we give $15,000 in a large grant per district. Will you tell us now, did that change? MR. FRENCH: No, it did not change. Actually, I did say that and that was not quite accurate, to be totally honest. MR. JOYCE: So it was not true? MR. FRENCH: No - not that it was not true - we do try to even it out around the Province. When I was saying that I was trying to explain to you that is what we do. We even it out around the Province so that in one district a minister could not go in, like me, and take all the money.

In the case of me and you, for example, to compare both, you have $3,000 more in recreation money this year than I did. That is why there is some flexibility. We were faced this year out of the recreation capital with the Stephenville Training Centre, which we had to find some money to contribute to the $500,000 that they did there. In the City of St. John’s, for example, we put all of the St. John’s grants together – 78

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MR. JOYCE: They actually (inaudible) that out in Deer Lake. MR. FRENCH: Do you have a question or something? MR. JOYCE: Yes, you can go ahead. I am listening to the question. MR. FRENCH: In the City of St. John’s, for example, there are seven or eight districts. MR. JOYCE: Just to let you know, it is all in Hansard so I can read it after anyway. MR. FRENCH: Oh yes, no problem, but if you could keep quiet, then you could hear me now and you can read it and listen at the same time. MR. JOYCE: Oh no, that is fine. MR. FRENCH: In St.

John’s, for example, put the seven or eight districts together and it all went to baseball this year. The previous year, a couple of years ago it went to soccer. It depends on what part of the Province you are in, what is happening. That is the way it goes. MR. JOYCE: Okay. Can you – and I am sure the officials have it – give us a list of who received the $15,000 grants? MR. FRENCH: No problem. I do not have it here with me but I will certainly get it. MR. JOYCE: I am sure one of the officials do. MR. FRENCH: No, they do not have it with them. MR. JOYCE: They do not have it? MR. FRENCH: No. MR.

JOYCE: How long will I have to wait for that? MR. FRENCH: I do not know. When we get a chance I am sure we will get it over to you. MR. JOYCE: Some of the $15,000 was taken to put towards Stephenville? MR. FRENCH: We have a pot of money. It is $1.28 million actually, and we have – are you referring to one grant in particular you did not get, that you are worried about? MR. JOYCE: The McIver’s one, yes. The $15,000 per district that was in the budget, per district that we were told was in the district. MR. FRENCH: No. Well, it is not per district. MR. JOYCE: Okay.

So the information you gave us last year was incorrect? MR. FRENCH: You are asking about McIver’s in particular, are you? MR. JOYCE: Yes. That is the only one, because the way it was – MR. FRENCH: Give them a call – MR. JOYCE: Okay. MR. FRENCH: – to see if they have any money this year from this group, from this department. MR. JOYCE: I am just going on about last year because when I personally see $15,000, and then I see the civic centre which the City of Corner Brook subsidizes almost $1 million a year and they get $15,000 for bleachers. I could see the Humber East – MR.

FRENCH: Are you against the City of Corner Brook getting money for bleachers? MR. JOYCE: No, I would prefer a recreation committee and 100 kids have a place to play and parents have a place to watch their kids play. There is a difference when you already have facilities to play sports, but when you do not have the facilities it is nice – MR. FRENCH: I would suggest you go back to the groups in your district in particular and ask them. Ask the six seniors groups what they thought about getting the recreation money they received.

Ask them how they are spending theirs and I am sure you will find they are more than happy with receiving that recreation grant. MR. JOYCE: They are. That is not – 79

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MR. FRENCH: I am sure you will find the McIver’s more than happy with the recreation money they get on an annual basis. MR. JOYCE: They did not get any, sorry. They did not get anything. MR. FRENCH: Oh, didn’t they? MR. JOYCE: No. McIver’s did not get any. MR. FRENCH: You should call them. You should call them and check it out, you should. MR. JOYCE: I will. Do not worry, Minister, I will. What you say in the Estimates this year, will there be more reflection of how the money is going to be spent? MR.

FRENCH: What I am going to tell you is what I was trying to tell you last year, is that money will be evenly split across the Province. One district will not get a hell of a lot more money. You will not see one district top loaded and somebody else bottom loaded. That will not happen. That was the point I was trying to make last year when I said the money would be evenly distributed throughout. That is what I meant. MR. JOYCE: No. What you said is $15,000 per district. MR. FRENCH: Yes, well that was the way I was trying to explain it. MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

I will go to Administrative Support, 1.2.02.02 Operating Accounts. Why is there an increase in the 2013-2014 revised for Purchased Services? It is 1.2.02.02. MR. FRENCH: Yes, okay. Do you want to take that, Rachelle? MS COCHRANE: The increase in Purchased Services in the revised for 2013-2014 reflects an increase of $3,400 in the rent for the office in Corner Brook. MR. JOYCE: How many people are in that office in Corner Brook now? MS COCHRANE: Just one. MR. JOYCE: How many were there? MS COCHRANE: There were two. MR. JOYCE: So there is one gone. There is one less. MR. FRENCH: Yes.

Actually, there was a gentleman who was close to retiring. MR. JOYCE: Pardon? MR. FRENCH: There was a gentleman close to retiring, but last year there was a position removed from that office. MR. JOYCE: Is that position going to be filled? MR. FRENCH: No. MR. JOYCE: The position will not be filled? MR. FRENCH: No. MR. JOYCE: Okay. What impact will that have in Western Newfoundland, that position not being filled? MR. FRENCH: I think it will have a very minimal impact. We have been involved, from a tourism perspective, on the West Coast in a heavy way.

Right now we have our Western Destination Management Organizations that are up and running that we fund significantly. They do a lot of the work in that area, dealing with a variety of groups throughout their part of the region. Actually, we have all our DMOs up and running now and are successful. They employ, from a tourism perspective, probably three or four people. I cannot exactly speak for them. I can just tell you what we give them. So they are picking up the load. I think they can certainly handle the tourism workload on the West Coast now. MR. JOYCE: Okay. 80

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE 1.2.04, Operating Accounts; in the 2014-2015 Estimates for Purchased Services, there is no money in it? MR. FRENCH: What was that heading? MR. JOYCE: 1.2.04. MR. FRENCH: 1.2.04? MR. JOYCE: Yes, 02 Operating Accounts. MR. FRENCH: Yes, go ahead. Carmela Murphy. MS MURPHY: The money that was there last year reflected the last year of the major renovation on a capital project for the VIC in Argentia. That project is now completed. That is why the money is not reflected in 2014-2015. MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

Heading 10, Grants and Subsidies: Why is there no money in the 2014 Estimates? It is the same headline, just heading 10. MR. FRENCH: That is money for the Colonial Building, actually, and that is cash flow to The Rooms. MR. JOYCE: Okay. It was just money going in. There is none going in this year? MR. FRENCH: No, because that is the end of the project. That is the end of the funding. MR. JOYCE: I understand. Subhead 2.1.01, Tourism Marketing: Last year there was less than half of the budget spent in 2013-2014, Professional Services. MR. FRENCH: Go ahead, Carmela Murphy.

MS MURPHY: The Professional Services budget of $233,000 annually reflects our research program, tourism marketing research, and that money fluctuates every year depending on what cycle we are in on the exit survey. There was no exit survey last year or this year. We will do it again next year. We did a number of research projects and then the balance of the money was moved to Purchased Services so we could spend more on marketing programs. MR. JOYCE: Yes. Next, Purchased Services, there is an extra $2 million. Is that for the tourism ads? MR. FRENCH: Is that correct, Carmela?

MS MURPHY: Yes, that reflects (inaudible). MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is for the $2 million. MR. JOYCE: Is there a breakdown – I will just give you an example; some people mentioned to me that some of those ads, when you go down to the mall to a movie, you see them in the Avalon Mall. How are they broken down to be seen? Is it Newfoundland, all across Canada? They are great ads, by the way. MR. FRENCH: Every year, I guess our marketing team, which is second to none – and I am not saying it because of Carmela here in target marketing. They sit down – target, I think, is on a three-year, five-year contract right now.

I think it is three, and with a year, they can renew for two more years. What it is, they sit down every year and they gauge where the best bang is for our buck. From there, they decide where to go and what markets. It is no secret that we target certain markets because sometimes people say to you: Well, how come you are not in Europe campaigning? If you buy a half page in The London Times is $500,000 or $250,000, so you take your money and you channel it in certain places where you have the biggest impact. Obviously, Ontario is probably our number one market, for all kinds of reasons.

Then, we market in other places around the country. When we market in Europe and the US, we actually do it with Atlantic Canada towards the partnership. We do it in partnership with the other three Atlantic Provinces. ACOA kicks in about 50 per cent of the money. We put in so much each, all of the provinces do, and that is how we try to infiltrate the US market and the European market. 81

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MR. JOYCE: Okay. Is it $2 million and $2 million again next year? MR. FRENCH: Yes. It will be $4 million from previous years. There will be a $4 million increase next year to the marketing budget. I just want to make sure you have that right. It is $2 million this year, and it will be $4 million increase the following year from the previous years. MR. JOYCE: So, really, it is $4 million; $2 million each year? MR. FRENCH: No, there is $2 million this year, a total of $2 million increase this year, and a total of $4 million increase next year. MR. JOYCE: So it is $6 million? MR.

FRENCH: Over two years. It will be an increase of $4 million in the second year. It is $ 9 million, it went to $11 million this year, and it will go to $13 million next year. MR. JOYCE: Okay, $4 million over two years. MR. FRENCH: Right. MR. JOYCE: That is what I thought. Under 2.1.02.10, Grants and Subsidies, there is an $8 million increase. How will it be spent? MR. FRENCH: That is for the St. John’s Convention Centre. Most of that is channeled through there. That is over a number of years. Carmela, you might be able to explain that better than I can. Go ahead.

MS MURPHY: Last year the Convention Centre money was budgeted over three fiscal years. The provincial and federal portion last year was $4.4 million, this year it is $12.2 million, and next year the final $12.2 million. That increase, the $7.9 million, reflects the additional money to pay the $12.2 million this year. MR. JOYCE: What is the total amount for the St. John’s Convention Centre? MR.

FRENCH: I think we were into it for $15 million or $16 million –$15 million, I believe, but I think that has increased now to $60 million is the total cost – MS MURPHY: The total cost of the Convention Centre has gone over and it is $60 million. Our contribution has not changed. MR. JOYCE: Has not changed? MS MURPHY: No. MR. JOYCE: I do not know if you want to – CHAIR: If you are finished that subhead, I am going to go to Ms Rogers. MR. JOYCE: Yes. CHAIR: Ms Rogers. MS ROGERS: Thank you very much. I want to thank everybody for taking the time out of your busy

schedule to be here today. I want to congratulate you once again for some absolutely excellent work, particularly under the fiscal restraints that you had last year. There has been some great, creative work. Congratulations again – I think there were more awards on some of the marketing campaigns and that is great. I know that we do not just hand our money over to target marketing, and that staff are involved as well in the design and the approach to marketing. So, congratulations on some really wonderful work; it is great to see. I will not go over some of the numbers that Eddie was able to go over.

If we could go to 2.1.02, Strategic Product Development, the Grants and Subsidies – and again, any list that the Official Opposition requires, I would like those as well, please, just so I do not have to ask for them again. MR. FRENCH: What was the number again, sorry? MS ROGERS: Subhead 2.1.02.10, Grants and Subsidies. Can we have a list of where those Grants and Subsidies were awarded? Who? Where? How much? 82

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MR. FRENCH: Subhead 2.1.02. MS ROGERS: Strategic Product Development, under Tourism. MR. FRENCH: Yes, go ahead, Carmela. MS MURPHY: For the total amount of funding, the $12,521,000, as I have indicated, $12.2 million was for the St. John’s Convention Centre.

Also included in that is the grants for the Visitor Information Centres, the regional, the twenty-five regional centres in the Province, which is about the number that receive an annual grant; that also includes $35,000 for the Grand Concourse and $100,000 for the East Coast Trail, as well as about $40,000 for market readiness initiatives. MS ROGERS: What does that mean, market for whom – what is the market readiness initiative? MS MURPHY: There are a couple of things related to that; one is for tourism industry practitioners who wish to go and take professional development, like best practice missions.

MS ROGERS: Great. MS MURPHY: We will provide 50 per cent of the cost of their attendance to go on the best practice mission or to attend the appropriate professional development conference. MS ROGERS: Great. Who would be covered under that group, that category? MS MURPHY: Who does it target? MS ROGERS: Yes. MS MURPHY: That would be any tourism industry professional, someone who owns a tourism business. It could be non-profit organizations in tourism or culture or heritage that operate (inaudible) – MS ROGERS: We are just having a little technical difficulty there. Okay, great, sorry.

MS MURPHY: Any individual who works for a tourism-related non-profit group, an organization, an association, or cultural industries as well who are also a tourism attraction, a product; or an individual business owner, or employee of a tourism business can take advantage of that program. MS ROGERS: There is how much allocated for that? MS MURPHY: About $40,000. MS ROGERS: Not a whole lot for a growing industry. OFFICIAL: It is a very healthy program. MS ROGERS: Yes, it is great. Thank you very much.

If we could move on to Culture and Heritage, 3.1.01 under Salaries; we see there is an increase of $60,000 for this year. What would that be for? MS COCHRANE: It reflects an increase of $58,100 in 2014-2015. It is because of the 2 per cent salary increase and the increase in shift deferential and weekend deferential as per the collective agreement. MS ROGERS: Okay, thank you. Transportation and Communications has gone up about $27,000. MS COCHRANE: Under Culture and Heritage? MS ROGERS: Yes. MS COCHRANE: That reflects an increase of $26,500 in 2014-2015.

It reflects a reallocation from an activity from Purchased Services to reflect the need for the division in the meal allowance as per the collective agreement. MS ROGERS: That is an increase in meal allowance? MS COCHRANE: Right, and which is part of that collective bargaining. 83

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MS ROGERS: Thank you. Purchased Services, we see a decrease of $58,000. MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to take that one? MR. JONES: Sure. Included in Transportation and Communications, Supplies, Purchased Services, Professional Services is the Provincial Archaeology Office, as well as Provincial Historic Sites. The activity varies from year to year. What we have done is we have been able to do a bit of an analysis and this is a right sizing of the budget.

Each year you are not quite sure if you are going to need professional services to a certain amount, purchased services to a certain amount. This just basically reflects trying to find a best fit that our analysis tells us that we will need for next year. MS ROGERS: For 2013-2014, the amount that was unspent, I would think that historic sites, some of them really need attention. What kinds of purchased services would have been under there? MR. JONES: Right. For example, this past fiscal year, $254,000 to $190,000, those monies were moved into Professional Services because that was the activity we needed.

So it is really an accounting measure. It is not that the money was not spent, but it was needed to be spent on a different type of activity; therefore, it had to be moved into the appropriate account activity. MS ROGERS: Okay, thank you very much. To continue on, Arts and Culture Centres; Salaries, we see there is an increase in the revised budget for 2013-2014 of $514,000. MR. FRENCH: Actually, that is – I will let Mark clue up – a little bit of a good news story. That the Arts and Culture Centres are becoming more and more used, especially in the St. John’s one in particular. It is becoming busier and busier.

The more third party rentals you get, the more salaries you need. We have seen a consistent increase over the last couple of years, which is a credit to the staff that have been there and the way they are promoting it. Mark, I do not know if you want to finish, or just add anything. MR. JONES: Yes, sure. That is correct, Minister. The more third party rentals you have, you need to staff up to provide the services. Therefore, this is an adjustment in our salary vote on our projections for our shows for 2014-2015. We already know the

schedule for 2014-2015, obviously. That is one element, but it is also the 2 per cent salary increase for the collective agreement and the shift differential for evenings and weekends as per the collective agreement. MS ROGERS: Great, and it is so wonderful to see the Arts and Culture Centres are used more. That is just fantastic. The more people we can get in there, I think it is so much healthier for all of our arts in terms of exposing a lot more children as well to the arts. That is great. It is just fantastic. Purchased Services, there is an increase of $250,000. What would that be for? MR.

JONES: Basically, it would be the same explanation. Purchased Services and Salaries are the two areas of the budget that we pay for the different shows. Basically, if you are a third party rental, all of the revenue comes to government. We pay the producer out of our Purchased Services vote. It is not a share of the revenue. So we need to have a corresponding vote in our Purchased Services to make those payments. MS ROGERS: Okay, thank you very much. I have no specific number, budget item for the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council; however, I do have some questions that I would like to ask.

We know the average grant to an artist at the Arts Council is about $3,000, is it? MR. FRENCH: As you know, the Arts Council is a separate entity from government. I can tell 84

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE you we budgeted $2.1 million over the last several years. There has been no decline in that vote. They have an independent board that decides and selects who gets what and how much they get. MS ROGERS: Yes. MR. FRENCH: I certainly do not get involved in which artist should get money and which artist should not. MS ROGERS: Absolutely not. MR. FRENCH: That is an entity that looks after their own; they decide who gets what grants and how much they get. I certainly do not meddle in that at all. MS ROGERS: Yes. That is not quite my question.

My question basically is leading to: How many applications do they get? What is the dollar value of the applications? How many have to be turned away? What I am interested in is the demand and the financial response to that. MR. FRENCH: They have a significant demand for the $2.1 million, as you would know. MS ROGERS: Yes. MR. FRENCH: There are people who do get turned down, that I can assure you, because I hear from the occasional one who is trying to get funding and do not get funding. MS ROGERS: Absolutely. MR. FRENCH: That is unfortunate, obviously, but that is the reality sometimes.

You cannot give money to everybody, as much as we would like to sometimes. I do not have the exact number of how many people get grants and how many people do not, but it is public record. There is no hiding it. We can certainly provide you with that. I am sure the Arts Council will give you that. MS ROGERS: Okay. My question is: What is the per capita funding that we give to the Arts Council? MR. FRENCH: Again, I would have to – you can do the math. We give them $2.1 million and there are 500,000 people in the Province, so you can do the math. MS ROGERS: Yes.

Is the department looking at any increase in allocation at all? MR. FRENCH: Not right now. Not in this fiscal year, but every year we look at every item in the budget. We still have a deficit this year and we had a deficit in the previous year. We are pretty insistent on not taking anything away from the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council, and their budget has remained the same. MS ROGERS: Okay.

Well, there has been some decrease in that budget because we see they have had to cancel the Visiting Artists Program, which has been a real – all the research shows how incredibly important exposure to artists is in the school system. MR. FRENCH: I am a big believer in the arts, personally. So anything we can do to highlight the arts, I am certainly in favour of it. When we are dealing with fiscal issues then certain things happen. I think that is one of the pieces they get from Education. I think they get a small pot every year from Education as well.

That is unfortunate, but sometimes, unfortunately, that is what you have to deal with when you are in fiscal realities. MS ROGERS: Was there any possibility through Culture and Heritage that this program could be reinstated? MR. FRENCH: It is about moving the chairs on the deck sometimes. You can take money away from somewhere and give it to somewhere else, and we give the Arts Council $2.1 million. We have not reduced it. If the Arts Council decided they wanted to take money from there and move it to some other programs that would be entirely up to them. That is not something that I would meddle in.

My goal is to keep funding them as best we can. I would not determine to tell them how to spend their money. 85

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MS ROGERS: Okay. Has there been any request from the board of the Arts Council asking for an increase in funding? MR. FRENCH: Over the years, I have met with them several times. They can always lay out a list and I could probably share with them a list of places I would like them to spend more money but again the fiscal realities are. I do not know if I have anything, I cannot recall receiving anything in writing recently but the Arts Council are always – they are advocates for the arts community.

So whether it is in a public place where we end up rubbing shoulders at a venue or whether it is in my office, they always make the case well for the arts. For me to say, no, they have never asked me for more money would not be accurate. I do not think I have received anything official, but having said that, that does not matter to me. It does not have to be officially written in stone for me to get the message. Obviously, the more we can give – any of the groups that I deal with are always looking for more money and many of them very legitimately.

I am sure they would be more than happy to take more money any time we would be willing to give it to them. CHAIR: Ms Rogers, I am just going to ask if you have a quick question or so here on the Arts heading. Then we can move back to Mr. Joyce. MS ROGERS: No, I am fine. We can move on. CHAIR: Okay, I will go to Mr. Joyce. Thank you. MR. JOYCE: Thank you. Under 3.1.06 Historic Sites Development, 02 Operating Accounts. There are extra expenditures in Purchased Services for 2014- 2015. Can you please explain? MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to take that? MR.

JONES: That reflects the new allocation in this year’s budget specifically for Point Amour and Heart’s Content Cable Station. MR. JOYCE: What work is being completed in Point Amour? MR. FRENCH: Painting mainly, the outside of the lighthouse needs to be painted. That is the main thing, I think. The goal this year is to get the outside refurbished. Am I correct, Mark? MR. JONES: Yes. MR. JOYCE: Under 3.1.07 Special Celebrations and Events; in 2013-2014 there was only half of the budget spent in Salaries. MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to explain that? MR. JONES: Which line in particular, sir? MR.

JOYCE: It is 3.1.07.01, Salaries. MR. JONES: Yes. That reflects a maternity leave we had in the department for a period of time in 2013-2014, and the departure of a support staff person in January. So collectively, the salary vote just was not drawn down on in that activity. MR. JOYCE: Okay. Also, in 02, Operating Accounts. Oh sorry, pardon? MR. FRENCH: I said she had twins, she should get double. MR. JOYCE: Stay off twice as long. In 02, Operating Accounts, the increase in Professional Services in 2014; one quarter of the budget was only spent in 2013-2014, yet in 2015 we see a huge increase.

Can you explain that? MR. FRENCH: Do you have it, Mark? MR. JOYCE: In 02, Mark. MR. JONES: Yes, sorry. That reflects a cash flow issue we had with the potential Gallipoli caribou monument. We are 86

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE currently negotiating with the federal government on making that happen. It is a long- term project, monies were not spent this year, and it was cash flowed out to next year. MR. FRENCH: (Inaudible) if we could. Our goal is we would love to see another caribou monument. Apparently, as the story goes, there were supposed to be six caribou monuments in Europe. I guess because of the Depression and the way things went, they never did build one in Gallipoli. We know, of course, that many from the Royal Newfoundland Regiment fought in Gallipoli.

We have started a process of trying to put a monument in Gallipoli, and believe me when I tell you, it is not very easy. It is not as simple as it sounds. Apparently, the country does not want any more new monuments because their countryside has become – there are a lot of monuments in Gallipoli. They have offered us this – I can never recall the name of the garden that is there, but Mark – MR. JONES: Kabatepe MR. FRENCH: Kabatepe garden. They are allowing us – there has been some negotiation between the federal government and Turkey, because obviously they will not deal with a province.

We have been going through the federal government. Our goal is to put another caribou there. I think the cost of a caribou is about $700,000 or $900,000? MR. JONES: (Inaudible). MR. FRENCH: It is $700,000. We have been budgeting each year with the hope of getting the caribou. We may have to scale that back because we do not know if we are going to get permission to put a caribou there, but we are certainly going to put something there. MR. JOYCE: I will just talk about another one, the War Memorial.

I know the work the committee has done in Corner Brook with the caribou, and the monument in Regent Square in Corner Brook. There is a War Memorial in Curling. I think there was $2,000 – I am not sure if it was from your department or maybe from Municipal Affairs – for a parking area. It may have been Municipal Affairs because there is no parking there, and that is the First World War monument. Was there ever any application made to your department, or how would you go about it? MR.

FRENCH: I remember receiving a letter from Curling – I think it was Curling I received the letter from – asking for some repairs to the area. We have not decided yet how we are going to go out, are we going to do repairs to monuments? Are we going to hold celebrations in each community? We have not really worked out the details. We are gearing away from – we are actually right now doing an inventory. We have someone hired on contract doing an inventory of all of them across the Province, and whether we will or we will not have a fund there for doing that sort of thing, I do not know.

I am thinking there are an awful lot of monuments in the Province. If we had to fix them all up I do not think the $3.4 million, $3.6 million would go very far, based on what they just did in CBS. I know they had to raise an awful lot of money to do it themselves. MR. JOYCE: Can I get the name of this person who was hired? Can you send me the name so I can see if I can meet with them? MR. FRENCH: Hired for? MR. JOYCE: You said you hired a consultant. MR. FRENCH: Yes. What he is doing, though, is just an inventory. He is just telling us where every monument is. MR. JOYCE: Okay. MR.

FRENCH: We can give you the name and you can contact him, no problem. MR. JOYCE: No, no. I thought it was someone seeing what work needs to be done. MR. FRENCH: No, no. It is just to identify where there are actual official monuments, if you will. So there would be one in Curling, one in CBS, one in wherever. 87

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MR. JOYCE: Are there any funds available to do up that type of – because there are a lot of funds coming through to do the one, and I support it, up in Corner Brook, the War Memorial outside the Legion, but for the actual First World War and Beaumont-Hamel, the actual site is in Bay of Islands right there on Monument Hill. That is the actual War Memorial that was opened I think in 1932, 1942 – I think it was in 1932. They actually opened it up – in 1942, it was. That was the actual War Memorial. It is almost being pushed aside. MR. FRENCH: That is too bad.

We have never had, in TCR, money to repair monuments. There has never been, that I am aware of – since my time, I have never, ever signed a letter stating this is for repairs to a monument, but something tells me – and I stand to be corrected and you would have to ask Municipal Affairs about it – one time that they used to do some stuff for Legions and I think maybe monument repairs could have been part of that program, but you would have to ask them. MR. JOYCE: When they did the bronze at Regent Square, they gave $15,000 or $20,000 towards it – MR. FRENCH: Municipal Affairs did? MR. JOYCE: Yes. MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Even the pilgrimage to Beaumont Hamel, for example, that was all done through Municipal Affairs. What we are doing here, the Honour 100, is like a separate entity animal altogether because that used to all funnel through Municipal Affairs too at one time, the whole trip to Beaumont Hamel with the kids and the veterans. MR. JOYCE: Okay. I am just going to ask a few questions. I think we just went through that. Under Purchased Services, we are seeing an increase in 2014, but in 2013-2014 there was very little spent – Purchased Services, 02, Operating Accounts, the same one. MR. FRENCH: What is the subhead? MR.

JOYCE: Subhead 3.1.07, Purchased Services, just under the Professional Services. MR. FRENCH: Okay. Do you have it Mark? MR. JONES: I do. MR. FRENCH: Okay, go ahead. MR. JONES: It is a similar answer as before, Sir. Part of that is tied to the Gallipoli monument, the caribou monument in Gallipoli; that is why the monies were not spent in 2013- 2014. So, some of it is cash flowed. Depending on the activity, some of the monies for the monument would be in Professional Services, Purchased Services, so that is why you are going to see some variances there. For 2014-2015, that reflects the total activity for this year.

It is a five, six-year commemorative plan and different years have different amounts of money attached to it. MR. JOYCE: So it is for the same project mainly? MR. JONES: Some of it is for the caribou monument in Gallipoli, but some of it is for the other activity that we are undertaking for the commemorations, period. MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you. Under 10, Grants and Subsidies, there is an increase in 2014-2015. Can you explain what – MR. JONES: Again, the activity for 2014-2015 is different from the activity from 2013-2014, so some of that money would again be tied to the caribou monument.

We have five categories of activities from community outreach to our anniversaries to the education components, and 2014-2015 dollar amounts are just different from 2013-2014 in the five-year plan. MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you. I do not know if Gerry has anything else. I just have some questions, so I do not know if you want to – 88

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE CHAIR: Ms Rogers, do you want to go back and finish off that section, or do you want Mr. Joyce to continue on recreation? MS ROGERS: Just where we are right now. MR. JOYCE: Sure. CHAIR: Okay, we can do that. MS ROGERS: The Grants and Subsidies, can you explain to me a little bit about whether that is a specific program that people apply for, where is the money going, how is it being allocated? MR. FRENCH: Go ahead, Mark. MR. JONES: Sure. Amongst the activities that we are undertaking is a pilgrimage to Beaumont Hamel, an ambassador program in education.

We are launching a grant program sometime in 2014- 2015 that communities, heritage groups, artists groups can make application. MS ROGERS: About how much will be allocated for that? MR. JONES: I am not certain. I would rather confirm later, actually, because they were still working on that, rather than have to correct ourselves. That will be a different activity. It will be a two- to three-year program and we are still working on the details so that we can launch that early this year. MS ROGERS: The pilgrimage to Beaumont Hamel, how will folks be chosen or apply for that? MR.

JONES: That is a program that we provide a grant and work with the Royal Canadian Legion, Newfoundland and Labrador Command, so it is not actually our program out of our department. MS ROGERS: It is a grant that is specifically given to the Legion, is it? MR. JONES: Correct. MS ROGERS: How much is that? MR. JONES: The dollar amount, uncertain, but we did support sixteen students, young people, last year in addition to the Legion members and the veterans. The total delegation last year was just under forty. MS ROGERS: Okay. Great, thank you.

What is your estimate in terms of the Gallipoli monument, sort of a ballpark figure once all is said and done? Do you have any idea of that at all? MR. FRENCH: It was budgeted initially for $700,000. Again, depending on what the government allows us to put there, will determine how much of that $700,000 will be used for that. If it is not used for that, though, it will be used for other pieces for the commemorations. It will be used specifically for that. That whole budget will be used for the commemorations. MS ROGERS: Okay. Great, thank you very much.

Culture and Heritage, Newfoundland and Labrador Film Development Corporation, does this look like a cut of $250,000, a reduction? MR. FRENCH: Pardon? I did not hear that. MS ROGERS: The allocation for the Newfoundland and Labrador Film Development Corporation, it looks like there is a reduction of $250,000 – Loans, Advances and Investments. MR. FRENCH: As you know, there are some films, currently, that are under negotiations with some other – go ahead, Mark. MR. JONES: Basically, the total vote for the film corporation is the regular equity fund, but in addition to that is funding for Republic of Doyle.

Depending on the cash flow, we are supporting Republic of Doyle; it is over several fiscal years. MS ROGERS: Yes. MR. JONES: So the $250,000 reduction shows it is a combination of part of season 4, part of season 5, and as just announced last week, CBC has renewed it for a season 6. 89

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MS ROGERS: That is great. MR. JONES: The producers are currently under negotiation and have asked that we remain silent while they are negotiating terms with CBC. MS ROGERS: So the allocation for Doyle, that comes out of this pocket of money? MR. JONES: It does. MS ROGERS: Okay, all right, great. I want to say that it is great that the equity program continues; also I note that the tax credit program was well used in that it is supported by the government, and I think that is a wise investment. Do we know how much was accessed through the tax credit program? How much was awarded?

MR. FRENCH: You would have to check that Finance, but something tells me about $4 million, a little of over $4 million. Is that correct, or $3 million? OFFICIAL: Just over $5 million in past fiscal year. MR. FRENCH: Just over $5 million in the last fiscal. MS ROGERS: Okay. Great, thank you very much. It is a great program that I think is a good investment that has great returns for the whole Province. We cannot lose with that – MR. FRENCH: I could not agree with you more.

Sometimes, as I am sure you have ran into in your business, when you start talking to people who count the beans, if you will, sometimes it is very hard to explain the importance of something like this to financial people, but thank God that everybody has bought in and it is showing great dividends. It is not something that is not done in other places in the country. I am sure you know the story of Alberta when they stopped doing it and it took them ten years before they caught back up again to where they were in film production. MS ROGERS: Yes, it really had a negative impact on their industry, absolutely.

Recreational Services and Facilities, the $15,000 grants – MR. FRENCH: Yes. MS ROGERS: The one that went to baseball for the eight different districts in St. John’s, how was that decision made? MR. FRENCH: Pardon? MS ROGERS: How was that decision made to allocate – MR. FRENCH: Well, we met in the department. MS ROGERS: Yes. MR. FRENCH: Obviously, it is for a regional facility. It is for the baseball diamond, as we did the same thing when it went to soccer a couple of years ago. They are doing major renovations to St. Pat’s, Mark? MR. JONES: Yes. MR. FRENCH: St.

Pat’s ballpark and it is the focal point of baseball in the city. Everybody who plays ball in the city goes there. The same as they do with King George V. That is how the decision was made. They had written and asked, made a request to government. That is why we did it. MS ROGERS: For the other sporting organizations throughout the city, that was fine with them? Was there any consultation with other sporting, recreational programs in the city? MR. FRENCH: I can assure you – we fund all sports through Sport NL.

We give Sport NL, I think it is, between the three groups it is certainly well in excess of $2 million, School Sport NL, Sport NL. They all get portions through the sport governing body, Sport NL. MS ROGERS: Yes. MR. FRENCH: A variety of sports get money as well. This is just for capital investment. 90

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE Anybody can write us, any sport. We have given to all sports. We have given to tennis. We have given to – there is no sport that I can think of in St. John’s that we have not given money to. MS ROGERS: Right. MR. FRENCH: It is just who is looking for money at the time. Whether it is for hosting or whether it is for capital or whether it is for – and that changes from year to year. Next year it could be swimming or it could be volleyball or it could be – it is just whoever is in the hopper and whoever comes looking.

If the time is right and the money is available, then we will support it. MS ROGERS: Yes. Historically, has this money more so been spent and allocated more and spread throughout the districts? MR. FRENCH: No, I like to make sure that every region gets it fair share. That is important to me. In Conception Bay South, for example, I know, not this past couple of years but three or four years ago myself and one of the other MHAs said – I think it was soccer, actually at the time, were looking for money for something to support capital.

We both lobbied and agreed to say: Soccer came to us looking for – and I did not have any problem with it. So, even though the field is physically in my district – well it was in Paul Davis’ district, and I do not even know if that was before Paul was elected probably. It was not in my district, but the benefits of Conception Bay South were for everybody. That was three or four years ago we did that. St. John’s I think maybe – it has happened in numerous places throughout the Province, given any one time. It is quite common.

If it is a sport and it affects a whole region, I think over the years you will find it happened in Mount Pearl maybe as well. I do know about Corner Brook. I cannot speak to exactly where it happened but it is not uncommon for it to happen. MS ROGERS: Okay. MR. FRENCH: If it benefits a region then, why not? MS ROGERS: Okay. Historically, were MHAs somewhat involved in discussing the allocation of those funds? MR. FRENCH: Oh my God, yes. MHAs come to me on a daily basis looking for recreation grants for this or for that. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to say no.

Like I said, there is only so much money to go around, but MHAs come to me all the time. As a matter of fact, Mr. Mitchelmore has come to me numerous times. Mr. Joyce has come to me numerous times. Lots of people do, that is part of it. MS ROGERS: Okay, thank you. Grants and Subsidies, we see there is an increase. We are under Recreation and Sport, 4.1.01.10 Grants and Subsidies, an increase by $317,000. What would that be for? It is nice to see an increase. MR. FRENCH: Do you have that, Mark? Go ahead. MR.

JONES: That vote actually does change from year to year, if you look back through the Estimates historically. MS ROGERS: Yes. MR. JONES: Some activity is cyclical in nature. MS ROGERS: Okay. MR. JONES: Newfoundland and Labrador Winter and Summer Games, Canada Summer and Winter Games. Depending on our needs, on the cycle monies come in and out as required. MS ROGERS: Right. MR. JONES: So that explains some of that. Another piece of the explanation is a $250,000 specific allocation for the Special Olympics that are being hosted, the National Special Olympics in Corner Brook. 91

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MS ROGERS: The National, right. MR. JONES: Government committed $500,000 to that initiative and that will flow to them over two fiscal years, $250,000 per. MS ROGERS: What year is that again? MR. JONES: 2016. MS ROGERS: That will be pretty exciting. MR. JONES: Yes. MS ROGERS: Great, thank you. I do have a few other questions I would like to ask. For the Colonial Building – I am going to go back again, but not specific numbers. MR. FRENCH: Yes. MS ROGERS: For the Colonial Building, when is the targeted date for completion? MR. FRENCH: Late 2015 or early 2016. That is our goal.

MS ROGERS: It will be pretty exciting. MR. FRENCH: I am really looking forward to it, actually. That is one of the places that I truly, truly love in St. John’s. MS ROGERS: We staged an event there for the anniversary of women getting the vote in Newfoundland and Labrador, and we had a debate in the House. MR. FRENCH: Really? MS ROGERS: Yes, in the Colonial Building. It was quite exciting. Then Marian Frances White did a film called – oh, my gosh, it will come to me. MR. FRENCH: I always tell this story. Apparently we had somebody here – MS ROGERS: The Untold Story, sorry. MR. FRENCH: Okay.

We had somebody here from New York. A lady was here looking at the different – because they cut out a little square and they go back and see the different layers of paint so that they get it right, go back to its original origin. Somebody who was there with her said to her: You know this is quite a building for Newfoundland at the time in 1850. She said this was quite a building for North America in 1850. It was pretty good to hear somebody like that give you that kind of assessment. MS ROGERS: What is the plan now? Who will be housed in that building? Have those decisions been made? What is the plan? MR.

FRENCH: It was important to me, when we were doing this building initially, that there would be no offices up in the area that we could display to people. There was some talk of that at the time; however, there is a basement. If you have been there, there is a basement in the Colonial Building that will be reutilized as offices. Our Provincial Historic Site offices will be there, for example, for sure. Is there anybody else, Mark? MR. JONES: The Art Gallery, I believe, was in there as well. MR. FRENCH: I think maybe archaeology was in there as well.

That is yet to be determined if they will be there but Provincial Historic Sites certainly, because obviously we are hoping this is going to be the flagship for our Provincial Historic Sites. It will be a great spot for them to be. MS ROGERS: Thank you. How is the directional signage program going? MR. FRENCH: That is now in the process. We are in the process right now of – the regulations are about to be gazetted. It is all moved to TW, and TW are now taking over that file and moving forward with the regulations.

I think, Carmela, is it fair to say right now that is where we are, we are waiting on the gazetting of the regulations? MS MURPHY: That is correct. 92

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MS ROGERS: They are almost set, is it? MR. FRENCH: Yes, I am expecting them rather soon. MS ROGERS: Okay. CHAIR: Ms Rogers, are you almost ready to conclude? MS ROGERS: I have a few questions. If Eddie would like to go ahead, then I can come back to my questions. CHAIR: I will go back to Recreational Services and Facilities. Mr. Joyce, go ahead. MR. JOYCE: Thank you. The Arts and Culture Centres this year, is there any increase in funding for Arts and Culture Centres across the Province? MR. FRENCH: We did have to make an increase. Mark, correct me if I am wrong.

We did have to make an increase in the salary vote, did we not, and Purchased Services because of the increase in demand for the centres. The income goes into general revenue. Obviously, to offset that we have to give them money to pay the salaries, so that was the increase. Other than that, no; we are in the process of doing some reorganization with the way the whole thing operates, but again, there is no loss in positions or anything like that. It is just a matter of moving people around. No, I do not thing there was any increase. MR.

JOYCE: Last year, the cuts to the Arts and Culture Centres, how much money was saved or were there significant cuts to the Arts and Culture Centres last year? MR. FRENCH: No, there were no significant cuts to the Arts and Culture Centres. There was a position – was there a position cut? OFFICIAL: One in (inaudible). MR. FRENCH: Oh yes, there were some positions; that is right. In Labrador it went to part-time, and I have the numbers that I am more than willing to share with you. MR. JOYCE: Okay. MR.

FRENCH: I cannot remember now, but there was Labrador, Grand Falls, and Stephenville – it was sad that they were so underutilized. One of the facilities had twenty- six nights; I think that was Grand Falls – and do not quote me on these numbers, but I can get you the accurate numbers. MR. JOYCE: Okay. MR. FRENCH: Lab City was like thirty-odd nights. So, based on those numbers, we really did not need full-time staff there. That is why the decision was made. I think we cut back the manager to part-time staff.

The lady in Stephenville, she retired, but she was owed quite a bit of severance at the time, but I think she is probably back now too on a part-time basis. MR. JOYCE: So you can just send over an amount that was saved – MR. FRENCH: Yes, no problem. MR. JOYCE: Okay. I know Gerry asked the questions earlier about the Republic of Doyle. How much is allotted for the Republic of Doyle? MR. FRENCH: For previous years, it was $3.75 million, but it is $1.25 million for three years is the way it is allotted. Some interesting statistics on that; for every dollar that we invest in Doyle, $2.86 comes out the other end.

The net benefit of Doyle to the people of the Province, if I recall, is $36.4 million. MR. JOYCE: Where does most of the money come from on the other end, when you mentioned the other end? MR. FRENCH: Well, the way it works, the total budget of Doyle is about $26 million or $28 million, depending on how many episodes that they shoot annually. So, they have a number of corporate – CBC, obviously, is one and the Government of Newfoundland and 93

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE Labrador is one. Whole else, Mark, would contribute to that? MR. JONES: Canada Media Fund. MR. FRENCH: Canada Media Fund, these guys. If it was not for us taking

part in that, those monies outside the – 80 per cent of the investment in Doyle comes from outside the Province. So if we were not getting a piece of that, then that would be spent somewhere else in the country. That is the piece, probably, that we do not talk enough about, since Doyle has started, $36.4 million to the good to this Province. Even though we have invested we have taken this much back. I guess people do not see that because you think oh my God, $3.75 million for the Republic of Doyle for a season. There are thousands of man hours goes into it now, all good-paying positions.

First when they started filming, I think all of the camera crew had to come from Ontario, and now most of the camera crew is from Newfoundland and Labrador. To go down on the set and see the number of people from all across the Province, from Gander, from Twillingate – I was blown away, because you do not think of the film industry as a big industry in the Province. There has always been a film industry here; I certainly do not want to insult – there has always been a film industry, but Doyle has really helped take it to the next level.

Just last year, the biggest production cost film in the country was done here in the Province. This is really a developing industry. MR. JOYCE: Just off topic, years ago there was a million-dollar mobile unit in Corner Brook that was purchased and is at the Civic Centre in Corner Brook. MR. FRENCH: I remember that. MR. JOYCE: Where is that at now? MR. FRENCH: I have absolutely no idea. MR. JOYCE: Corner Brook is going to be the hub of the activity. There was a million-dollar setup. I know they had the big cameras, rolled it into the Civic Centre; this is where the film industry is going to start. MR.

FRENCH: How long ago was that? You would probably know more about that, Gerry, than – MS ROGERS: That was a shooting stage. MR. JOYCE: Do anybody know where it is at now? MR. JONES: (Inaudible). MR. FRENCH: Go ahead, Mark. I thought that might be before your time. MR. JONES: It was before my time. That infrastructure still exists and it is used on a per use basis, so basically the Newfoundland and Labrador film corporation does have access to those assets.

The College of the North Atlantic on the West Coast makes use of it during their programs and I think it is – Gerry, you might know this – the Atlantic film co- operative is kind of an institution that runs it. MR. JOYCE: Can you forward me the – MR. JONES: I can try to – MR. JOYCE: Dig up the number of times it has been used in the last four or five years, because I know the Civic Centre group were out complaining because it was taking up so much storage. We have not heard anything about it in the last four or five years out there. It was $1 million spent on it.

Can you forward to me how many times it has been used, by who, and the status of it now if it still exists? MR. FRENCH: We should be able to find that out from the film corporation I am sure – I guess they still have it, Mark, obviously and they move it around to whoever wants it, so we can get that for you. MR. JOYCE: It is supposed to be stationed in Corner Brook and that was the idea, to have it in Corner Brook. Okay, thank you for that. 94

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE The non-resident visitors to the Province by auto were down by about 6 per cent, 5.9 per cent, and it was about a 21 per cent decrease in the cruise ships, cruise visitors. What is that attributed to, or is that just a normal cycle? MR. FRENCH: That is the cruise industry. That is just the way it goes in the cruise industry. It is up and it is down. Some years, you will hear of big increases in cruise; some years, you will hear not so many. Carmela, I do not know if you can add anything to that.

MS MURPHY: Actually, visitation to Newfoundland and Labrador overall – if you took cruise out – would have been on par this year. Even though the auto traffic was down, but air was up. The cruise ships this year, there were twenty-one cancellations. About fourteen or fifteen of those were due to weather. That happens. There was one large cruise company that had booked seven itineraries into the Province and they ended up cancelling all of the itineraries. Even though that happened, those cancellations brought the number down overall to, I think, 1.5 per cent, but it was still a fairly good cruise season. MR.

JOYCE: Just on a note, you mentioned that it was on par, most of the people who fly in, do they travel the rest of the Province or do they fly to St. John’s or Deer Lake? MR. FRENCH: There was a statistic that I saw some time ago and it was for people who came to the St. John’s region because, obviously, that is the busiest airport. I think at the time there was about 50 per cent of them that stayed extra time and 50 per cent of them went outside the St. John’s area. MR. JOYCE: Okay. MR. FRENCH: I know last year I was in Deer Lake and there was a group here for a convention.

I think it was twelve or fourteen who were in Deer Lake but all going to different places. There were two or three going to the Northern Peninsula; there were two or three going to Corner Brook. Interestingly enough, most of them are all hiking. Somebody told me recently that more people come here now and pick berries than they do come here to golf. MR. JOYCE: Myself, my wife, and my mother-in-law, picked sixty pounds of blueberries last year. MR. FRENCH: What kind? MR. JOYCE: Blueberries, mainly blueberries.

There was a position in Deer Lake, I think, at Deer Lake Airport, was that ever reinstated after, a half-time position? MR. FRENCH: What happened was the statistics we have on Deer Lake – Deer Lake is the fourth busiest airport in Atlantic Canada, and the statistics that we had showed, outside of the traditional season, there was very little tourism traffic, and that was one of the major pieces that we did with our exit survey was in all the airports.

We thought that we could reduce a position at the Deer Lake Airport, because there is one on the highway and one in – so I went out there actually personally and had a look at it, and thought, no, we cannot leave this like this. So then we got the person back on a part-time basis. There were a couple up direct flights coming from Toronto with tourists on it, so she covered them off – that we knew had potential to have tourism people. We also restocked the shelves, turned the TV back on, so it did not look like the moon. So, we did pick it up, but we picked it back up on a part-time basis. MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Are they still looking for someone on a full-time basis, or are they understood – MR. FRENCH: We have been talking about it in the department. We have not made a full decision. We will be fully staffed up, a full complement now again in another several weeks, but we are still talking about how to deal with that. We are going to have another look at the statistics and the numbers, but we cannot have it like it started off last year. We have to have some presence there. So whether that will be a full-time staff, whether we take it and pick 95

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE certain times of the day, whether we track certain flights – that is where we are headed. MR. JOYCE: Okay. The Labrador tourism development officer, is there any plan on filling that position? MR. FRENCH: Absolutely. Actually, the process is started – Carmela, is it next week? Next week is interviews. MR. JOYCE: Excellent. MR. FRENCH: So, that is a priority for us, something I want to get done ASAP. MR. JOYCE: Okay. How much money has been invested in the DMO offices, Labrador, St. John’s, and Western? MR.

FRENCH: Annually it is $150,000 a year from us, from the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. IBRD also complements at different times, and they do get money from ACOA as well. Over the last number of years, I have seen a number – Carmela, do you know the total number over the last number of years on how much we have given the DMOs? MS MURPHY: How much we have given them? MR. FRENCH: Yes. MS MURPHY: It is $150,000 a year – MR. FRENCH: Yes. MS MURPHY: Times four, $600,000, and that is since 2009. MR. FRENCH: It is $600,000 a year since 2009. MR.

JOYCE: Minister, last year there was a training centre in Stephenville – how much money was given to this training centre? I just know you can speak from your department, because I know Municipal Affairs was involved with that also. MR. FRENCH: The total package was $515,000, Mark, or $530,000? MR. JONES: (Inaudible). MR. FRENCH: I think it is $530,000, something tells me, and that was for the full package deal. Actually, I spoke with the mayor recently about it and actually he called me up to tell me what a great success it was. The Y operates it; they have done the renovations to the building.

I cannot tell you the numbers, but the increase in participation there is phenomenal. The word on the people who use the facility, they had a couple of hundred members, bang, in no time. Word on the street was: the best thing we ever did. They got the professional group like the Y that can drag on resources from the Province and from the national office. They have a staff there. Apparently, it is a very inviting place to go, new equipment – success story, actually. MR. JOYCE: The money that you found for that, was that found within your budget or did you go back to Treasury Board? MR.

FRENCH: No, it was within our budget. MR. JOYCE: Within. MR. FRENCH: Yes. MR. JOYCE: Can you give me which line items the money came from, or is that possible? MR. FRENCH: The money came from the $1.28 million – well, it was $7.1 million, and there is about $6 million of that that is in some form of grant that includes going to the various groups. So we took it out of the recreation capital money and gave them, I think, out of our department, I cannot tell you the exact amount, but Municipal Affairs certainly contributed the most and we contributed the rest. MR.

JOYCE: So some of that money came out of that grant money that was – MR. FRENCH: Yes, correct. MR. JOYCE: So that is where some of that money from Stephenville came from? 96

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MR. FRENCH: Correct. MR. JOYCE: So were there other places that never got $15,000 grants that should have because of this? MR. FRENCH: Well, there is a whole host of grant money that goes out. There is grant money that goes out to the three – to SportNL, school sports, Rec NL. MR. JOYCE: Were any of them cut last year? MR. FRENCH: I do not recall them – no, their budgets were kept intact. Then we have another pot of money that we give – I think, if I recall correctly, it was something like $60,000 that we had to come with out of the $530,000 – $55,000. MR.

JOYCE: I do not want to put you on the spot, would you be able to give me a breakdown of that, where all that money was spent, where it was gone – MR. FRENCH: Oh yes. There is $600,000 that goes to communities with under 5,000 people, for example, recreation money; there are our seniors’ recreation grants of $200,000. Yes, we can give you a breakdown of that. MR. JOYCE: Give me a breakdown of that, some of that money there. MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is no problem. MR. JOYCE: I think Gerry mentioned earlier about the TODS program. Is there any time frame on that? MR.

FRENCH: Well, now the regulations are in place, so now people, when they purchase their sign, will have to go through the TODS program. The TODS program is where it is going to be and it will be rolled out with the regulations across the Province. We have done a couple of areas of the Province. At first, I think there was some, oh my God, how are we going to deal with this; but we have done it so that people’s new signs were not destroyed and we have given timelines. Now you will see certain areas of the Province are quite happy to have this system because it cleans up the highways and looks good. MR.

JOYCE: Is there going to be any enforcement on the signs that do not meet the guidelines? MR. FRENCH: There will have to be, to some degree. I guess it will all go through TW now, Mark, Transportation and Works? Oh, sorry, Carmela – MS MURPHY: We are expecting those regulations to be in effect and announced very soon. There is a grace period of two years.

So for those who have permits under the existing signage, and what would be the former regulations under the old Highway Signage Act, those permits are good until March 31, for those that are good until March 31, 2016; but in that time frame if that permit expires people will be notified that they can go take the sign down themselves, if they would like to do that so that they can keep it or recycle it for something else. They will have to then have, I think, a board sign through the application, through TW who will be responsible for the signs and for enforcement. MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, I do not think you will have the answer here; I am sure you will not because I do not know it myself. Remember we mentioned back a year ago, probably two years ago now, about the trail down in Georgetown Road that was disconnected. Somewhere along the line I heard that there was an estimate done and it was a very high estimate to fix that. Would you be able to get me a copy of that estimate that was done because the estimate that I heard was extremely high? MR. FRENCH: Yes, it was. MR. JOYCE: When I sit down with – MR. FRENCH: Was I in Environment then? MR. JOYCE: What? MR.

FRENCH: I was in Environment then. That is an Environment question because the provincial T’Railway is part of the Department of Environment. 97

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MR. JOYCE: I thought some of the money came through Tourism. MR. FRENCH: No, it is part of the provincial T’Railway, the provincial park, the linear park. You would have to ask them. They should have that information. MR. JOYCE: The T’Railway – some of the money does not come from Environment to upgrade some of the – MR. FRENCH: No, if I recall correctly all the money goes through the Department of Environment. MR. JOYCE: The figure that was tossed around was up to $300,000 and it is only just a small – MR. FRENCH: I thought it was even higher than that, to tell you the truth.

I thought it was like $400,000 or $500,000 that the quote was at the time. MR. JOYCE: When people came down to look at it, Transportation and Works came down also, a little bridge across, $15,000 to $20,000, because they would never replace what was taken down. It was moved up and just put a new bridge across for safety. Anyway, that is fine, yes. Okay. CHAIR: Are you good, Mr. Joyce? MR. JOYCE: Yes, thank you. CHAIR: Ms Rogers, any last questions? MS ROGERS: Yes, thank you.

If we could go back to Culture and Heritage, 3.1.01.01, Purchased Services, is this where the Arts and Letters come under and also Art Procurement? Does that come under that category? MR. FRENCH: In 3.1.01, Purchased Services; do the Arts and Letters come under that, and what else? MS ROGERS: The Art Procurement Program. MR. FRENCH: Mark, I do not think it does, does it? MR. JONES: The Arts and Letters do come from a combination of Professional Services, Purchased Services, Supplies, Transportation and Communications. It does come out of the operations vote of our department directly. MS ROGERS: Okay. MR.

JONES: The Art Procurement goes as a grant and is administered by The Rooms. MS ROGERS: Okay. What was the budget for Arts and Letters in 2013-2014 and what is it for 2014-2015? MR. JONES: Whatever the amount is, it is the same. MS ROGERS: Okay. You do not know what the amount is offhand? OFFICIAL: (Inaudible). MR. JONES: Arts and Letters, it is in that range. MS ROGERS: Is it possible to send me that amount? Great, thank you. The Art Procurement, what was the budget for that last year, how much was spent, and what is it this year? MR. FRENCH: It is fully subscribed, I know that. What was that Mark?

Why am I thinking $100,000? It was $125,000. MS ROGERS: It is $125,000? MR. FRENCH: Yes, and that has not changed. For the last number of years it has been – MS ROGERS: Okay. It was all spent last year and that is what is budgeted this year. 98

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MR. FRENCH: Yes. MS ROGERS: Okay, great. Under 10, Grants and Subsidies, can we have a list of those? MR. FRENCH: The Heritage Grants? Yes, I can get you a list of the Heritage Grants. There are about 125, is it? OFFICIAL: (Inaudible). MR. FRENCH: Okay, yes. We can give you the Heritage Grants. MS ROGERS: Okay. The CEDP is under there as well? Is that program under there? MR. FRENCH: The CEDP, yes. There is a committee that is struck, as you are probably aware. They apply through the different programs and they get money accordingly.

MS ROGERS: I believe there was some change last year where individuals or theatre groups could not apply for funding for travel outside of the Province. MR. FRENCH: I would like to speak to that, actually, because this is one of the frustrations sometimes. You try so hard for the arts sometimes. What happened was in 2009 the federal government had given up a program that was used for travelling artists. Because of the budget crunch last year, it was one of the things that we just could not continue to do. I think that program – I am trying to remember how much it was. It was around $200,000 and change.

We took over a federal program and then we stopped doing it. What we have done this year is we had another look at it and tried to make funds available to do some of that. It will not be at the same level as the $200,000 and change that we had before but we are certainly going to look at some applications this year for artists who want to travel. We will not be funded up to the federal level, if you will. Again, it was a funding program the feds had; we took it over.

Last year because of Budget decisions, we stopped taking over the federal program and now we are trying to – like I said, I do not know at what level it will be funded but we will certainly entertain applications through CEDP for it. MS ROGERS: The arts community will be notified of that, that there is the possibility of funding for travel outside the Province? MR. FRENCH: They can just apply through the CEDP program. MS ROGERS: Right, okay. You have no idea how much may be allocated for that? MR. FRENCH: No. It will be part of the CEDP pot, which is about $2 million-something, if I recall.

There is so much for heritage and so much for – OFFICIAL: (Inaudible). MR. FRENCH: Yes, it is for both. MS ROGERS: Okay, great. It is really important that some of our artists and works get outside the Province. MR. FRENCH: One of the things we have done this year, too, is help form a business in the arts. We have matched the two. MS ROGERS: Yes. MR. FRENCH: That is the kind of things that maybe in the arts community probably has been lacking for a number of years is the coming together of both.

The hall has done a great job with it, for example, but some of the other individual artists, I think this is going to help ease some of that burden as well. You see more and more some of the corporate entities in and around the St. John’s area taking

part in the arts community. I think building that bridge and continuing to build that bridge is going to make a big difference and allow things like that. 99

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE Mary Pratt was touring recently, for example, in Ontario. I know there were a number of sponsors involved in that. It is not always about people with the calibre of Mary Pratt. There are an awful lot of other artists who could tour, too. That is a connection I think is going to work well with things like touring artists over time. MS ROGERS: Okay. How many small museums do we have in the Province? I know there is a situation – I have travelled the Province, spoken to people who are running small museums, and they are just barely hanging on by a thread. MR.

FRENCH: I have a philosophy on that. I do not know if I am going to share it with you. MS ROGERS: I would love to hear it. MR. FRENCH: We have – I do not know why I keep thinking 125 museums in the Province. I think there comes a time when we are preserving our history, is that we have to do it collectively. We cannot all be entities unto our own. For example, in Conception Bay South, it is made up of nine communities. I do not see us ever being in a place where we could have nine museums in Conception Bay South.

I think collectively if we could bring it together, I think we could offer such a better product, a bigger product. Because right now what we are doing is we fund these 125 – we give the Museum Association of Newfoundland and Labrador, by the way, $100,000 a year to operate. I think there are about 125 groups across the Province that applies for money. So you are trying to help everybody. There is only so much in the pot. We have just locked down how much they are getting for three years. They all know they have this amount of money for three years. We started doing that last year? OFFICIAL: (Inaudible). MR.

FRENCH: Last year, for their budgeting purposes and so on. You have to have community involvement when you have little, small community museums. I am not saying people should ever shut down community museums, do not take me wrong. I just think if some shared services when it comes to museums, because I have been in dozens of them across the Province over the last three or four years, and they are all at different levels of quality. I am sure you have seen it as well. I do not know how many flatirons I have seen in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Let me tell you, if there are not 100,000 flatirons in Newfoundland, there is neither one. So there has to be a way to bring the level up. I think you will see the Museum Association of Newfoundland and Labrador have been working toward that. Whether that means coming together with smaller museums, whether that means having more community involvement. I know many of these small museums are run by volunteers now. Many of them are aging, for example, they are aging volunteers. I am certainly willing to work with the Museum Association of the Province and finding a way. We have had these discussions in the past.

I have had them with them. So there has to be a way to improve the quality and help ease the burden on some of these community volunteer groups. MS ROGERS: Is there a specific plan in motion then to look at that? MR. FRENCH: Again, that is not the type of thing that I see me, as minister, or our department going out and being heavy-handed. That is a plan that has to come from the ground up, as the tourism industry has and done a great job. Obviously, our museums and heritage groups are such an important part of our tourism history, our tourism piece.

That is something that the industry associations would have to bring up, come to me, and we can work together. We have a meeting, I would say, annually would be fair to say, if I was a betting man. Then, the staff meets with them certainly a lot more than that. That would be something that would have to be driven by the association. They are a very healthy association, and a number of people involved. 100

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE MS ROGERS: You say that they now know what they are getting for the next three years, which really helps with planning. Is that list available publicly? Is that listed anywhere on the Web site or can I have a list of that, the grants – MR. FRENCH: It would be on the Web site. MS ROGERS: It is on your Web site? MR. FRENCH: Where? OFFICIAL: From last year. MR. FRENCH: Yes, it would be on it from last year, on the Web site. MS ROGERS: Okay, great, thank you. I may just about be done. The Grants and Subsidies to The Rooms, they lost $1.1 million last year.

Is there plan to make that up? MR. FRENCH: Not in this fiscal year. MS ROGERS: Okay. I know I had raised a concern in the House this past year about the fact that there is not a conservator on staff at The Rooms right now. Then, in the preparation for the Honour 100, there will be so many artifacts coming in. Is there any movement to look at that? MR. FRENCH: I cannot recall for sure, but if I recall correctly they were in the process of advertising for a conservator, I thought, some time ago. MS ROGERS: Oh, maybe that is true. I may have missed that. MR. FRENCH: I thought that was the position.

If I recall, is that a case where they had two and one of them moved out of the Province and one of them retired or something all at the same time? MS ROGERS: I was not sure if it was part of a budget cut. MR. FRENCH: No, I think that they were in the process of hiring. Whether that is one or two I cannot tell you, but I thought that. I stand to be corrected. I have to check with The Rooms and find out. I thought that they were in the process of hiring somebody. MS ROGERS: Okay, I will look and see. That is good to know if that is happening. The East Coast Trail has gone from product development to marketing.

Do you know how that has worked for them? Do they have any particular real challenges? MR. FRENCH: Carmela? MS MURPHY: Last year, I believe, at the same time we were here – we provide $100,000 annually and that is for operations and maintenance. Last year, for some reason, before I came here it had been moved over to the marketing side, but this year it has been moved back to the product development. It is just a matter of where it is. The amount has not changed, nor has what the purpose of the funding is for, and it has not been decreased. MS ROGERS: Okay. MR.

FRENCH: It is $100,000 annually for the East Coast Trail. MS ROGERS: Yes, right, thank you very much. What is the plan for playgrounds and rec centres this year? Are there are any particular plans or any areas, anything specific? MR. FRENCH: No, the recreation capital grants, many of them use them for playgrounds. You will see a lot of these – I am just trying to remember the name of the organization – you see a lot of communities now apply for recreation grants to upgrade their playgrounds, and they usually partner with numerous other groups, charities, communities, town councils. That is generally what happens.

That is driven that way; we do not go out and build playgrounds as such. We certainly help support them. MS ROGERS: Okay. 101

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE I have no further questions. CHAIR: Okay. Mr. Joyce, or any other member of the Committee? Okay, Mr. Mitchelmore. MR. MITCHELMORE: One of those playground initiatives happened in my district, Minister, and I certainly thank the department for the $15,000 in funding that levered $85,000 in additional funding through partnership with Let Them Be Kids. MR. FRENCH: Let Them Be Kids – that is what I was thinking. MR. MITCHELMORE: A regional playground there servicing people off the beaten track in the St. Anthony Basin Region is a good investment.

I do have questions on the consultant who was hired that you said to do an inventory of war memorials in the Province through the Honour 100? MR. FRENCH: Memorials, yes. It is $4,000 contract. MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. MR. FRENCH: To just basically list the war memorials. So it is nothing else; he is not doing what kind of shape they are in, ones that need to be painted. It is nothing like that. This is just an inventory of what is there. MR. MITCHELMORE: Did that go through a tender or did it not require a tender? MR. FRENCH: No, it would not require a tender if it is under – I think they went out and did an RFP.

Did they, Mark? Go ahead, Mark. MR. JONES: In this particular case we went through a process about a year ago where we had a pool of researchers approved, as per the tendering act, and it is from that pool that we would put out the pieces of work, invite invitations to do that work; and then based on the resume that is submitted and the type of work that is required, we would select the most appropriate researcher for the work at the time. MR.

MITCHELMORE: Did you not have the resources in-house to reach out to your network of organizations or to the municipalities to send out an e-mail asking them for such a list? At a cost of $4,000 seems a bit excessive to me. MR. FRENCH: All our staff is tapped, they are busy people, but this was something – and I guess it will require someone to do a fair bit of digging around the Province. I certainly do not know where they are all to. I guess somebody from outside would have to make contact with all the municipalities, local service districts, community groups.

I would see it as a pretty good deal, $4,000 actually. MR. MITCHELMORE: Will they make public the list; will this be part of the Open Government Initiative? MR. FRENCH: Absolutely. Why should we hide if St. Anthony has a monument? I would love to promote that stuff – MR. MITCHELMORE: Well, this is what I am getting at, I guess: Will there be a spatial map listing the monuments and maybe, if you have a list, then you could ask the group or the community to take a photo and maybe do a write-up so you could promote that? Because that would be a (inaudible) – MR. FRENCH: Mr.

Mitchelmore, I will provide you with a list, Sir; but if you want to draw them all on a map, you will have to do that yourself. MR. MITCHELMORE: I just think that it would be a way to promote tourism for a specific niche, especially where you are going in to Honour 100 that it would be a great opportunity – MR. FRENCH: Absolutely. That is why we are investing $3.6 million because it means so much to us. It is a significant piece of work, the whole $3.6 million, but there is so much you can do. There are a million things that people would make suggestions to do and that type of thing.

The main thing that we wanted to focus on was the education piece, number one, and to get 102

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE more of our – this was more about us, if I could, than about our tourists. As important as our tourism industry is, as I outlined earlier, this commemoration, as I see it, is more about the people who live here, not necessarily about the people who are coming here. As much we hope they stay and enjoy what we are going to offer, this is about our kids, our history, honouring our veterans, and making sure that it is not forgotten. MR.

MITCHELMORE: Vision 2020: I did not see any specific line item in the Estimates for it as to how your department is going to achieve the goal of getting to $1.6 billion. In your opening, you talked about the percentage, the staff that is involved, people who are involved in the industry. What portion of staff, or who is responsible in your department to ensure that the industry is going to meet its goals? MR. FRENCH: Everything we do is based on our tourism vision. We are ahead of pace to hit the $1.6 billion by 2020.

When that number was set a number of years ago in 2006-2007 that was a pretty lofty goal, and no one shied away from it. It was high target to set. We are on pace to do it. I can tell you that everybody in the department is working toward this. So there is no one person assigned to the vision; everyone collectively works toward the vision. That is why we have the Tourism Board, and the Tourism Board is made up of people from our department and people from the industry. The object of the Tourism Board is to keep us on track for the vision, and advocate for the tourism industry and work toward it. MR.

MITCHELMORE: You had mentioned, Minister, that there is multi-year funding for some of the organizations. What specific program was that? Was that just for museums itself? MR. FRENCH: I think it is for heritage organizations for the Province. So there are about 125 of them apply – I am saying 125; this could be off one or two. They apply annually. MR. MITCHELMORE: So those that received funding this past budgetary year know that they are getting funding next year and the year after? MR. FRENCH: Correct. MR. MITCHELMORE: So then after, in possibly two years’ time, there could be a new intake? MR.

FRENCH: Yes, it is a significant chunk of money that goes to these 125 groups. We talked about it there a minute ago; it was a couple of million dollars. It ranges from those getting $1,000 – I remember a few years ago we cut if off, not to make it less than a $1,000, to groups that get, maybe the highest one would be $15,000 or $20,000 – and I use that number loosely. You are dealing with groups that are anchor attractions that are offering a high-end product to a little small community museum with a flatiron and a picture of Joey in the corner. So that is the level you are dealing with.

No disrespect to the Father of Confederation, either. I used that because I went in one and saw a picture of Joey; that is why it comes to mind. MR. MITCHELMORE: Well, I certainly owned and operated a museum myself, so I know the challenges that small community museums face. I wanted to ask then if that particular program around heritage funding is multiyear.

Have you considered moving in to some multi-year funding for other components of tourism, like your organizations that you fund, you say you typically fund them the same, like maybe HNL, the East Coast Trail, other things like The Rooms – is there a plan that there is multi-year funding, or do those groups not know how much they are going to get from one year to the next? MR. FRENCH: No, they know. Obviously, you go through budget cycles and you have to deal with this sort of stuff. The DMOs are quite familiar that they were getting their $150,000 a year.

I made a commitment to the East Coast Trail a couple of years ago that they would get $100,000 a year for the next two or three years. MR. MITCHELMORE: Yes, certainly multi- year, long-term planning will help the industry itself make the investments that they feel is appropriate so that they can go out and grow the industry, but whenever there is instability, like 103

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE we have seen in other departments where organizations just got cut, people may feel that same fear if say the Destination Management Organizations or marketing organizations are wiped out. Where do they do their marketing then, right? MR. FRENCH: That all comes from our Vision 2020. This is a strategy that was developed by industry and government. This is the way we are headed, and we have stuck to it. Part of that was to make sure that the Destination Management Organizations were put in place and were funded. That is where we have been headed and we have not veered from that.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I want to ask about 3.1.02, Arts and Culture Centres. The revenue from the federal government was estimated to be at $75,000 but it only came in at $50,000. Why did the feds cut $25,000? MR. FRENCH: Mark, can you speak to that? MR. JONES: Actually, this will be the third year that we anticipate that the revenue will be closer to $50,000, so that is an adjustment to right-size the reality. It is an application-driven program by the federal government; it is not an actual allocation to us. So we make an application to that program, just as many other theatres across the Province do.

The good news is that as other groups have an uptake, it draws down on the pot. So we are actually pretty happy that those monies are disbursed elsewhere in the Province, as it is lifting up production activity in the other community centres, not just the Arts and Culture Centres in the Province. MR. MITCHELMORE: Right. There have been a lot of other theatres, small theatres, whether it be Rising Tide, Woody Point, or other groups, that are set up. MR. FRENCH: If I could, for one second, I just want to make sure – there are 121 groups that we fund: heritage groups, museums, and archives.

It is $860,000 out of the pot for the individual grants to each one of these. MR. MITCHELMORE: That is the multi-year funding? MR. FRENCH: That is the three-year commitment, yes. MR. MITCHELMORE: That is great. I guess it would be nice to be able to see the federal government as well come on stream with consistent longer term funding, whether it be to Arts and Culture Centres or whether it be to the department. Has it been pursued to try to secure some federal long-term funding under that? MR.

FRENCH: I have had many discussions with federal people, and our officials have, about continuous funding, increasing funding. I know a few years back the arts took quite a hit from the federal purse. As I referenced earlier, we tried to pick up some of it, but you can only do what you can do. We are always encouraging the federal government to increase spending in the arts. I certainly am. MR. MITCHELMORE: I want to ask a question about the Visitor Information Centres. I know my colleague, Mr. Joyce, asked around the Deer Lake centre. The Deer Lake Airport is extremely busy.

It is the hub for the South Coast, for the Western Region, the Northern Peninsula – MR. FRENCH: Fourth biggest in Atlantic Canada. MR. MITCHELMORE: – and Central, absolutely. They are expanding parking again, long-term parking. It is a very busy airport. So seeing improved services there is certainly a key to growing tourism for the entire Western- Central Region. It is pretty key. MR. FRENCH: I have read reports now – I am not suggesting that this where we are headed. I have not read them in detail; I have seen articles on VICs now. Basically, VICs are declining.

Most other provinces in the country are moving away from VICs. Now, ironically enough, our VICs have some increased visitation. So, obviously that is not where we are headed, but that is the trend nationally, is away from a VIC,

whereas in Newfoundland and Labrador we have kept – here we are in Deer Lake, we have a VIC on the Trans-Canada and we have one in the airport. 104

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE You can walk between the two; so how do you deal with that? MR. MITCHELMORE: Well, the demographics are kind of two separate when you are talking about air passenger traffic and – I mean, I am not going to debate the vicinity of those two Visitor Information Centres, but the demographics that we have coming certainly will mean a higher uptake for people going to visitor centres. The lack of telecommunication services along the Trans-Canada and the secondary routes mean that a lot of our services need to be more paper based, because we do not have the telecommunication services.

So that is why people are going to VICs to get their information. MR. FRENCH: I disagree with you a little bit on that. Yes, there are places, obviously, that have issues with telecommunications, but we still have over 500 communities in the Province that have telecommunications; 95 per cent of the population do. We just invested $1.3 million the other day in the Connaigre Peninsula, for example, that is going to see telecommunications. We still have $5 million that we have not yet announced – almost $5 million, $4.9 million, so that will be announced in the coming weeks.

So we are getting there, but it is not accurate to say that we do not have any telecommunications in the Province; that is point number one. Number two, the decisions that we made, we have a detailed exit survey, as you have probably sat through some presentations on over the years. The last one we did was probably two years ago. It was a very in-depth, detailed exit survey. So we can tell you who is coming through our airports and who is not, and who is stopping at the VICs. We have got an awful lot of information.

That is why we have been so successful, because we have all this information and we know the trends and where people are headed. So that is how we based our decisions. It is based on information that we are getting from our exit surveys. MR. MITCHELMORE: Right, and those exit surveys are pretty important, for sure. My point around the the telecommunications, I am not going to dispute the broadband coverage but my focus was more around the cellular piece because cellular coverage is completely lacking in many of those areas.

I guess where I am going with the Visitor Information Centre is that they are regional, they serve a big area, and it is important to have them. There is a lack of Visitor Information Centres on the Northern Peninsula to service the Northern Region, Labrador, the Gateway there that is happening. The St. Anthony and Area Chamber of Commerce have been working on the matter of trying to get a permanent Visitor Information Centre. MR. FRENCH: We have funded a Visitor Information Centre up there, regional centre. MR. MITCHELMORE: Right.

I guess I did not see any line there for funding; will that type of funding continue? MR. FRENCH: Yes, we fund a number of regional – they are not provincial VICs – MR. MITCHELMORE: No, they are not. MR. FRENCH: – but there are a number of regional. It is either $5,000 or something rings a bell with me or $10,000. I know there is one up there that we have given to in the past. There are a number of them dotted across the Province. We do what we can. MR.

MITCHELMORE: I wanted to ask you about your ad services under Tourism Marketing, 2.1.01, under Purchased Services, to see the increase of $2 million, which is still $2 million behind the 2012-2013 fiscal year. I wanted to know in last year’s budget how much was actually spent on ad purchases rather than production of ads. Can we get a breakdown of what was newspaper based, what was social media based, what was purchased on airplane entertainment systems, what was purchased and in what markets? MR. FRENCH: Yes, I cannot see that being a problem.

Again, that is based on a strategy that is created every year, so that varies from year to year. A few years back, for example, there have been years that we have not had a TV ad created, just because the strategy that year did not require 105

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE one. There have been some years we have had two; last year, we had one. We were very innovative last year because we had a lot of footage in the can, so we were able to cut back on our costs of being creative last year but still producing a really good ad – again, an award- winning ad campaign. It varies from year to year. I think the year we did the Torngats it was probably one of the more expensive ads that we have done, simply because of what we needed to do to do it. That varies from year to year.

You will not see X amount of dollars spent on a certain thing that is going to be consistent for years out because every year it fluctuates. MR. MITCHELMORE: Right. What percentage of those Purchased Services – would your Web site, newfoundlandandlabrador.com, fall under that Purchased Services? MR. FRENCH: Yes. MR. MITCHELMORE: Is that done in-house by OCIO, or is that funded through another organization? MR. FRENCH: Newfoundlandandlabrador.com is done through target? Target looks after that (inaudible). MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Do they provide you with information around the statistics, the visitation, that type of thing? MR. FRENCH: Oh yes, we get them on a regular basis. MR. MITCHELMORE: Is that something that we could have some information, an update to see – MR. FRENCH: Yes, just go back and read the – were you at HNL? MR. MITCHELMORE: No. MR. FRENCH: Well, I read them at HNL. So they are public knowledge. It was a press release, I am sure – MR. MITCHELMORE: Yes, there could be some information, whether it is a press release or something that I may have missed or some note. MR. FRENCH: Yes, sure, no problem. MR.

MITCHELMORE: I know you have mentioned them before; there have been over a million clicks or whatnot maybe per month. MR. FRENCH: Yes, the increase is significant. MR. MITCHELMORE: It certainly spikes throughout the year – if you could just have a breakdown. What is the cost of maintaining the Web site and the upgrades, the service agreement? MR. FRENCH: I would not be able to tell; it is part of the contract. Do you have any specific number, Carmela? MS MURPHY: For every year our investment of Internet and online marketing increases, because that is where our customers are finding us.

We are probably spending close to a million dollars. That is not all on the Web site; that includes our whole Internet marketing program. So it includes the content, upgrades for the Web site itself, it includes connectivity, and it also includes our online advertising and Internet marketing, social media, Twitter accounts, Facebook, the whole package. MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

So you base your purchases, though, on the consultant and the exit survey as to where they are going to buy, like on the Internet, if they wanted to do, for example, Expedia or if they do Travelocity, or if they do Facebook or – MS MURPHY: It is more than just the exit. The exit survey is really important, and it informs us of who comes here and who they are and their demographics. We also have access to a lot of other primary research that we undertake ourselves directly, or in partnership with the Atlantic Canada provinces.

We also partner with the Canadian Tourism Commission on big pieces of research, things called the Global Tourism Watch that tells us about Canadians, Americans, and Europeans, and about their 106

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE demographic, and more about their psychographics, and how they purchase. All of that information and research informs an annual marketing plan and an annual media plan that helps determine where we would advertise online, where we would advertise in newspaper or on TV and in the markets. MR. MITCHELMORE: Does the Province invite magazine journalists and other people into the Province? How much did that cost? I do not know where the budget line would fall for that particular piece. MR. FRENCH: All of this falls directly under our marketing budget, obviously.

Yes, the travel writer’s program is a significant piece of work for us. We use it in the outfitting industry. We use it in tourism quite a bit, because it means so much and we very rarely get a bad

article written about us. The various DMOs across the Province are heavily involved in that. You will see western DMO, for example, entertaining a group of travel writers, central DMO, eastern DMO. They will come with a group of travel writers. We will tour them around for three, four or five days. We will partner with the DMO generally, and hopefully they go home and write and say nice things about us. That is a common thing. I do not know if there is a specific line in the budget. You might know the exact amount that was spent on it, Carmela.

MS MURPHY: All of the marketing budget is included in the Purchased Services line. It is not broke out, because those amounts vary. We spent approximately last year, about $140,000 supporting travel journalists. The program itself, mostly we do not pay 100 per cent. We contribute to the cost partially, to their airfare, a rental car and accommodation while they are here, as long as they have a confirmed story, they have credentials and are bona fide. MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, that is great.

Certainly, I have seen the benefits of a number of pieces written on the Great Northern Peninsula, whether it is for outfitting, whether it is on the Viking settlement and other UNESCO pieces. I would say Red Bay will probably be a hot area as well for some photojournalists this coming season. MR. FRENCH: We have a (inaudible) there with three UNESCO sites. We have Red Bay, the Northern Peninsula, and Gros Morne.

That is one of the things we are pitching to our travel writers actually, that coming together, three of them – I do not know how many places in the world you can go in that short of distance and see three sites. MR. MITCHELMORE: Yes, it is pretty unique. Has the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation any money in the budget to look at the cost of getting here and what it is doing with maybe industry associations like Tyack and the airlines, or whether it be the ferry service providers, car rental agencies, to look at how we compare across in other jurisdictions? MR.

FRENCH: We do not have to do research for that. I can tell you quite frankly that the price point to get into Newfoundland and Labrador is significantly higher than getting to most places. The ferry has gone up 12.5 per cent in the last three years, which we have concerns about obviously. However, rubber tire traffic is in decline. It is declining about 3 per cent a year and has for the last number of years. Yes, it costs more to get here. It really does. We do price points advertising with West Jet. We used to do them with Air Canada. I think we do them with West Jet now. OFFICIAL: (Inaudible). MR.

FRENCH: Why don’t we do them with Air Canada? West Jet is over. We do things to try to encourage people to come here but the reality of it is, yes, it does cost more to come to Newfoundland and Labrador. That is probably why our demographic of the people who come here is what it is. MR. MITCHELMORE: The ad shares that are bought when it comes to – I guess Mr. Joyce referenced, for example, you go to a movie you might see one of our ads there. Is that ad share 107

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE specific to theatre in Newfoundland and Labrador, or is it purchased across theatres across the country? MR. FRENCH: Can you ask me that again, Chris? Sorry. MR. MITCHELMORE: The ads that are purchased at the Avalon Mall, for example, at the Cinemax there, is that ad for Newfoundland and Labrador through our Department of Tourism purchased just in that specific theatre or is it a mass purchase across markets? MR. FRENCH: I do not recall us ever buying ads in a theatre in St. John’s. OFFICIAL: (Inaudible). MR. FRENCH: We did not buy them. We did not buy ads in St. John’s.

I do not know if it is Destination St. John’s maybe has an ad there. I do not know. I have never seen one. I go to the movies every chance I get but I have never seen one in a theatre from Newfoundland and Labrador, like one of our ads. MR. MITCHELMORE: Do other people have the right to purchase and distribute these Newfoundland and Labrador ads? MR. FRENCH: No, but I hope they do keep distributing them. We do not sell it to them but they are more than welcome to show them all over the world if they want. MR. MITCHELMORE: Yes, I remember seeing these types of ads there. MR.

FRENCH: There is no value for us to put a Newfoundland and Labrador tourism ad at a cinema in St. John’s. I do not know – MS MURPHY: (Inaudible) 2010 on the mainland in one market but we have never bought it in Newfoundland and Labrador. The only time we have had cinema, which we did buy and it was in 2010, we test marketed cinema based on some research we had in Toronto. We did not repeat it after that year, not that it did not work but based on other priorities. We have never bought the cinema in St. John’s, so if someone is using our ads there, yay. MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

I will look forward to getting the list, maybe, showing where ads are being purchased in what markets. Is there any purchase of ads or any marketing directed at the Asian market? MR. FRENCH: Again, you do what you can do with the money you get. We know in the Asian market, for example, it is significant but research has shown us that most of the Asian market that comes to Canada will go to Ontario and to British Columbia. Should we take our $13 million and spend it in Canada? Should we spend it in the US? Should we spend it in the Asian market? Obviously, we believe we are targeting the right areas.

Are we against the Asian market? No. We play a role with CTC. I remember having conversations with the federal minister at the time a few years ago where we discussed the Asian market, because Canada and the CTC were interested in getting more of the Asian market. For us here in this Province, to be market ready for the Asian market is one point but the other point is it would not be a smart investment for us to go to the Asian market now and start running our ads. The reality of it is it would be a very poor return on some of the returns we are getting now.

You would like to be in every market but it just would not make sense to, and you would never have enough money to be. MR. MITCHELMORE: Is there a strategy in place around the access points, though, beyond the Visitor Information Centres around signage? You go to the Port aux Basques area, for example, or you go to St. Barbe to see what type of signage. You look at Fogo Island, for example, what type of additional signage or information is needed. Does the department work with the local stakeholders that are there to try and enhance aesthetics and things like that, as well, around signage and information?

I think when you look at the Trans-Labrador Highway and the distance one has to go without services, is there something the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation can do to maybe put in washroom facilities along the way or do things 108

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE to make enhancements to improve the customer experience? MR. FRENCH: There are always things you can do, but you only have so much money and it is about picking priorities. We have looked at, actually, and I have had conversations – and the Labrador highway in particular, because I think that is one of the key pieces, it could be, to our tourism market down life’s road over the next number of years as it develops and so on. Labrador has so much to offer. It is really untapped to where I would like to see it, but there is always so much you can do to enhance.

Again, there is only so much money to go around, and that is the bottom line. I would love to see a washroom – I have had the privilege of being in Southern Labrador, so I realize the length and distance. I know the highway depots are there and so on. You can only do so much for areas. We are in the process now where Destination Development plans are happening throughout the Province to help put infrastructure in place – HNL are heading that up – in regions of the Province where we are lacking.

If we need more signage here, or we need more roofed accommodations somewhere else, if we need washrooms, these are the types of things the DDP will pick up. Then we will work with groups and organizations, in particular the DMOs, to get to where we need to be. MR. MITCHELMORE: The Great Northern Peninsula had a heritage co-ordinator for a cluster project. Was that funded through Tourism, Culture and Recreation? MR. FRENCH: Yes, it was $75,000. MR. MITCHELMORE: What is the status of that? MR. FRENCH: We funded that for three years and it never produced very much.

It brought the groups together and I was hoping it would carry on and develop into something a lot better than it did. It was about funding a position. I do not know, Mark, if you wanted to add something to that, or if there is anything else to add. OFFICIAL: We funded it for three years. MR. FRENCH: We funded it for three years, I think, was it, Mark? MR. JONES: Yes. MR. FRENCH: Three years. It was a pilot project. The hope was that they would bring all of the heritage groups together to create a cluster like I spoke about, but it just did not – I did not see it working.

I was never convinced that it came together as it did. I think it ended up funding a position maybe at some point, but it had to produce results and I did not see that happen. MR. MITCHELMORE: Yes. I think one of the big barriers we see for a lot of tourism entities is around product development and around the packaging that they could offer, and sharing the resources for marketing. Even sometimes staff and things like that, you almost need that organizer.

I guess it is disappointing to hear that if there was a co-ordinator position, that it was not able to kind of bring in those entities where they could maybe contribute a little as well some of their marketing dollars and fund that position, to be the organizer to promote those ten entities. MR. FRENCH: Do not forget, that is exactly why we went with our Destination Management Organizations, to bring regions of the Province together. That is the role of the DMOs. It is to bring the groups together and help co-ordinate and identify gaps, bringing people together, and packaging and the works. MR.

MITCHELMORE: I really do not have any more specific questions around – I could ask you questions on tourism all day, Minister, and – MR. FRENCH: I could answer them. MR. MITCHELMORE: – we talk quite a bit as well on different issues. I appreciate the answers you have provided and I look forward to getting the information, just the breakdown on the marketing and seeing the different purchases that are being done. It is certainly good ads. 109

April 9, 2014 RESOURCE COMMITTEE The last thing I will say is that the industry really needs some long-term funding. They need consistency from the department. Seeing the ads cut, the marketing budget by $4 million, even though it was a tough call or whatnot, I think that was the wrong move. Putting money back in the future is a good step but it is a catch up now. Moving into the long term, if you strike a year where you have a bad budget, does that give confidence to the industry that they are making all of this investment and the marketing budget for the Province could get cut?

Because they depend on the Province in a big way to market the overall brand. MR. FRENCH: Absolutely. You have to remember now, we have invested over – I think it is $110 million since we created the vision. So it is not like we have totally turned our back on the industry. We have put $110 million into marketing. We have created a brand that is probably the best in the country; the most recognizable for sure in the country. We are into our campaign. It is 210 awards later. It is not like we have shut the door; but, yes, it was a tough thing to do. It was tough fiscal times. The decision was made.

I was quite clear with the industry at the time: Guys, hang on, this is not forever. We have a couple of years, but we will get there again. We are not forgetting about the tourism industry because it is such a significant piece of the Province’s economy. MR. MITCHELMORE: It is also nice to see our on-line marketing ads grow, to see that about a million dollars of the $3 million budget for marketing and ad space is there. That is a big component in a growing market. You can reach a lot more people at a fairly lower cost. I do not have any other questions. Thank you, Minister, and staff. CHAIR: Thank you, Mr.

Mitchelmore. We will go to Mr. Joyce for concluding comments. MR. JOYCE: First of all, Minister, and staff, thank you very much for coming out and for a frank discussion. I just want to be on the record, I know myself and the minister has a disagreement over a certain grant. That does not mean I do not support tourism and the work that is being done across the Province, all throughout the Province. I understand the financial restraint sometimes that you have for ads, but marketing is a big part of it. I know a lot of people in Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador who do a great job. Destination St.

John’s does a great job of it, and the department does a great job. The ads are great. You can see tourism is down a bit, and I am sure Marine Atlantic may have something to do with that. So we, as a group, have to pressure the federal government to ensure that there is a traffic flow across the Province at a reasonable rate from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland. Minister, thanks, and I will look forward to the information to be sent. Thank you for the frankness and the discussion this morning. MR. FRENCH: Yes, thank

Document details

Collection	Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees
Citation	2014-04-09
Type	committee
Volume / chapter	committees_standingcommittees_resource_ga47_pdfs_2014-04-09rctourismcultureandrecreation.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	62f33a2a951fe11905d3048ba1da973acfc3f0ad

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