1980 Legislative Session: 2nd Session, 32nd Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

THURSDAY, JULY 24, 1980

Afternoon Sitting

[ Page

3487 ]

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Oral Questions.

Natural gas exports. Mr. D'Arcy –– 3487

Advertising of denial care program. Mr. Macdonald –– 3487

Contract between Honeywell and Systems Corporation. Mr. Levi –– 3488

Disposal of PCP. –– 3488

Mr. Hanson, Mrs. Wallace

Fire standards in rest homes. Mr. Cocke –– 3488

Future of the ferry Princess Marguerite . Mr. Barber –– 3488

Moneys held by travel agents. Mr. Barber –– 3489

Report on Cowichan estuary. Mrs. Wallace –– 3489

Administration of medicine in schools. Mr. Lauk –– 3489

Committee of Supply; Ministry of Labour estimates. (Hon. Mr. Heinrich)

On vote 146: minister's office –– 3489

Mr. Hall, Ms. Brown, Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Cocke, Ms. Sanford

Votes 146 to 149 inclusive approved –– 3501

On vote 150: labour relations, collective bargaining and labour standards –– 3501

Ms. Sanford

Votes 150 to 152 inclusive approved –– 3502

On vote 153: building occupancy charges –– 3502

Ms. Sanford

Votes 153 and 154 approved –– 3502

Committee of Supply; Ministry of Environment estimates. (Hon. Mr. Rogers)

On vote 75: minister's office –– 3502

Mr. Skelly

Tabling Documents.

Select Standing Committee on Standing Orders and Private Bills, fifth report,

Mr. Strachan –– 3510

The House met at 2 p.m.

[Mr. Davidson in the chair.]

Prayers.

HON. MR. ROGERS:

On behalf of my colleague the Minister of Education (Hon. Mr. Smith),

it's my pleasure today to introduce one of his constituents from the

municipality of Oak Bay, a man who's no stranger to this House. Dr.

Scott Wallace is visiting us, with his brother and his wife. Would the

House please make them welcome.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY:

We have 25 students in our gallery today. They are in a summer session

— so the legislators are not the only ones in session this summer. They

are students from Sir Charles Tupper Secondary School, taking an

advanced course for credits in Socials 11, and are here with their

teacher, Bob Hepting. Will the House please welcome them.

HON. MRS. JORDAN:

As some of you know, it has been a keen interest of the government to

extend the interest of tourism and welcome into the tourism interest

itself people of a variety of interests. One of the areas we've had

great success in is some of the historical aspects of our province,

particularly in the area of airplanes and automobiles. It gives me

great pleasure today to let you know that we have a special group of

approximately 40 people throughout the galleries who are members of

Packard International Car Club, This is a vintage car club and they're

on a tour with their tour master, Bill Lauer, from Victoria. They have

been in Mexico and came up through the United States and are now in

Canada. Some, I believe, are planning to go across Canada. On behalf of

all of you — and you, Mr. Speaker — may I welcome them to British

Columbia and say how much many British Columbians are looking forward

to meeting them and seeing their beautiful automobiles. I ask the House

to give them a very warm welcome.

MR. BARNES: Mr.

Speaker, I just received a note that my old friend Mario Aiello is in

the gallery. I haven't had an opportunity to see him yet, and I'm not

sure where he's located. He has with him as well other members of the

family: Lily, Anthony and Emma. I'd like to have the House join me in

welcoming them.

HON. MR. CHABOT: Mr. Speaker, we have

in the members' gallery today the Hon. Vasey Houghton from Melbourne,

Australia. He is the Minister of Conservation for the state of

Victoria. He had a very successful journey today to the Sooke waters

with fishing guide Jim Hume. I'd like the House to welcome him to

British Columbia.

MRS. WALLACE: I'm very pleased to

welcome to the gallery today an alderman from North Cowichan, Mr. Alan

Hussey. He's accompanied by his wife Mary Hussey, who just happened to

be my official agent during the last two elections. Also with them is

Mrs. Hussey's godson from England, Mr. Clive Puddy from Rochester, Kent.

MR. MUSSALLEM: Mr. Speaker, in the gallery today are friends from Washington

and Oregon, the Savage family and the Lybeck family. It's nice to know at

this time the great feeling of friendship between the American and Canadian

people. These people are symbolic of that feeling. I'm delighted to ask

the House to welcome them.

MR. SEGARTY:

I would like the House to join me in welcoming, from the coal capital

of Canada, Alderman Gordon McDonald and Alderwoman Molly Doratty from

Sparwood.

Oral Questions

NATURAL GAS EXPORTS

MR. D'ARCY: I have a question to the Minister of

Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources. I would like to ask the minister

how much the export sales of natural gas — to the

United States have declined in the quarter of this calendar year ending June 30, or if they have declined.

HON. MR. McCLELLAND:

I am not sure which of the questions he wishes to ask me, but whichever

one it is, I will take it as notice and report back to the House.

MR. D'ARCY: Is the minister telling the House that he has no idea

how much gas we are selling to the United States now, relative to last year?

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, please. The question was taken as notice, hon. member.

HON. MR. McCLELLAND: The answer is no, Mr. Speaker.

ADVERTISING OF DENTAL CARE PROGRAM

MR. MACDONALD:

I have a question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. In

view of the fact that the advertisements promoting the dental care plan

of British Columbia that have appeared in newspapers are manifestly not

in accordance with the fair advertising provisions of the Trade

Practices Act in that they state that children under 14 and seniors

will receive up to $700 under the plan and fail to state a material

fact, contrary to

section 3 of that act — namely that they only get the

$700 if they pay $700 out of their own pockets; in fact, in stating who

is eligible and then stating they get up to $700, it is plainly

misleading and false advertising — I ask the minister if he is prepared

to investigate these advertisements and to ensure for the people of the

province that a fair representation of public plans will be made to

them in the newspapers through tax-payers' advertisements.

HON. MR. NIELSEN:

The member's question was largely based on his legal opinion as to

those advertisements. I will seek more reliable counsel and consider

his question on that basis.

MR. MACDONALD: Mr.

Speaker, I have another question for the Attorney-General. Will the

Attorney-General assure the House that he will investigate as to

whether or not these advertisements are in breach of the Trade

Practices Act and in particular

section 3? These are the kind of

advertisement which, if it were a private business, would

unquestionably lead to prosecution.

[ Page 3488 ]

HON. MR. WILLIAMS:

Mr. Speaker, if the member is putting the question in the form of a

complaint, we most certainly would deal with it on that basis.

CONTRACT BETWEEN HONEYWELL

AND SYSTEMS CORPORATION

MR. LEVI: Mr. Speaker, I have

a question for the Minister of Finance, the minister responsible for

the B.C. Systems Corporation. I asked the minister a question on April

29 about the IBM, but I guess he hasn't found out about it yet, so I

have another question for him. Two years ago the minister's predecessor

told the House that the government had renegotiated the Honeywell

computer contract for $6,488,000, ending on December 31, 1982. At that

time the Honeywell was split and sent to Vancouver at great expense.

Now I am informed that the Honeywell part that was in Vancouver is back

in Victoria. Could the minister tell us exactly what the status is of

the Honeywell computer?

HON. MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker,

first of all, to the member opposite, I'm sorry if I did in fact take a

question as notice on April 29 and not respond. That was an oversight

on my part. I would have to search back in the Blues.

will be difficult to answer within the limits of question period, and

the member knows that my estimates have yet to be presented to this

assembly. The decision with respect to Honeywell is to phase out that

equipment. The decision was taken after most careful, thoughtful and

quite long-lasting consideration by the board of directors of the B.C.

Systems Corporation, on the recommendation of the senior management of

that corporation — but again, not without the most careful

consideration by the directors, who, through me, are responsible to the

people of British Columbia.

MR. LEVI: Mr. Speaker, to

the minister, the contract is $6.4 million, still has 18 months to run,

and there's probably another $2 million to $2.5 million that has to be

paid. What's going to happen in respect to that payment? Is that going

to be a loss in terms of that contract that you have with Honeywell?

HON. MR. CURTIS:

Mr. Speaker, I think we have now reached the point where I would want

to take the question as notice and either deal with it subsequently or

in estimates, because it is simply not possible without taking the

balance of question period to get into all the detail. With respect to

the Honeywell phase-out, yes, there will be some loss, but measured

against that will be savings in the longer term for the Systems

Corporation.

DISPOSAL OF PCP

MR. HANSON:

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Environment. One of

the most commonly used wood preservatives in British Columbia is a

chemical called pentachlorophenol. Here at B.C. Forest Products at

Gorge Road, they're disposing of the PCP by mixing it in hog fuel and

burning it. Is this policy consistent with the guidelines of your

ministry for the disposal of hazardous materials?

HON. MR. ROGERS: That is a technical question, Mr. Speaker. I'll take it as notice.

MR. HANSON:

I have a new question, Mr. Speaker. Plumper Bay Sawmills apparently is

dumping PCP in hog fuel and taking it to the Hartland Road dump. Would

the minister see if this is consistent with the policies of his

ministry?

HON. MR. ROGERS: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

MR. HANSON:

I have one further supplementary to the Minister of Labour, Mr.

Speaker. Apparently at B.C. Forest Products they bring in casual help

on weekends to clean the dip-tanks that have this PCP, and apparently

these people are not advised of the hazardous nature of the chemical

they're treating. Would the minister please look into this matter as

well?

MRS. WALLACE: On a supplementary to the

Minister of Environment, would the minister tell the House whether or

not he personally gave approval to the cleanout of the PCP-contaminated

wood waste in the rail car at Deerholme, and would he tell the House

where that material was taken and how it was disposed of?

HON. MR. ROGERS:

I did not personally give the approval, if such approval was given. I

have no idea, although I can find out, where the substance has gone to.

I don't personally give approval for every project done by the ministry.

FIRE STANDARDS IN REST HOMES

MR. COCKE:

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General. On June 51

asked the Minister of Health (Hon. Mr. Mair) what steps he had taken to

upgrade the fire standards of long-term care facilities in the

province. He took the question as notice and hasn't answered it yet.

Now the provincial fire commissioner has received a report from the

Hospital Employees Union stating that "in some long-term care

facilities workers live in dread of a big fire and feel that there is

no way we could get everybody out in time."

Has the Attorney-General seen the report?

HON. MR. WILLIAMS: No, I have not, Mr. Speaker.

MR. COCKE:

Mr. Speaker, the same report makes five major recommendations on how a

serious tragedy such as the one that occurred recently in Mississauga

can be avoided in B.C. Having seen the situation in Mississauga, has

the Attorney-General decided to order implementation of any

recommendations?

HON. MR. WILLIAMS: The fire commissioner has indicated that the incident

at Mississauga was not occasioned by any failure to meet the appropriate requirements

of the fire regulations in that province and wouldn't have offended the

requirements here as well. It was an incident which arose due to the careless

smoking habits of one of the inmates.

FUTURE OF THE FERRY

PRINCESS MARGUERITE

MR. BARBER: I have a question to the minister re-

[ Page

3489 ]

sponsible for B.C. Steamships. There was an interesting letter in the Victoria Times last

night published by the hon. member for North Vancouver–Seymour (Mr.

Davis). He makes an interesting case in favour of retaining the

Princess Marguerite. Has the minister decided to take his predecessor's

advice, published last night in the Times , and direct the B.C. Steamship Corporation to refit the Princess Marguerite and put her back where she belongs, in service on the Seattle-Victoria run?

HON. MR. FRASER: The answer is no, I haven't seen the article. No decisions have been made.

MONEYS HELD BY TRAVEL AGENTS

MR. BARBER:

I have a question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. On

May 28 I asked a question of the minister which he took on notice. The

question was and remains: has he received any information or advice

from the Registrar of Travel Agents in regard to the default by any

registered travel agency in British Columbia of their obligations under

the act to maintain a certain level of financial participation in the

trust funds established by the same act? Has he received any

information that any registered travel agency is in default of those

obligations?

DEPUTY SPEAKER: A question taken on notice, hon. member, is out of order in question period. A new question?

MR. BARBER: Well, I'll pretend it's a new question if you wish, but I asked it on May 28. Has the minister got an answer to that question?

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, if the question is taken on notice, it is out of order to be asked again.

MR. BARBER:

All right. I have a new question. This is absurd. Has the minister

received any advice from the Registrar of Travel Agents in regard to

the default, if any, by registered travel agencies in British Columbia

of their obligations under the act to maintain a certain level of

financial interest in the trust fund established by the act?

HON. MR. NIELSEN:

Well, Mr. Speaker, since that would include any company which may be in

default up to this very date, I'll have to take the question as notice

and have it researched.

REPORT ON COWICHAN ESTUARY

MRS. WALLACE:

My question is to the Minister of Environment. Can the Minister of

Environment tell this House when we can expect to see the report from

the task force that's been reviewing the Cowichan estuary for the past

six or seven years?

HON. MR. ROGERS: I'm sure it's only five years, Mr. Speaker. Shortly.

ADMINISTRATION OF MEDICINE IN SCHOOLS

MR. LAUK: I have a question to the Minister of Education. On both June

5 and June 6 I asked a question with respect to school medication, which the

minister took on notice. Recently further inquiries have been made of me with

respect to ministry policy and the administration of medication in schools,

which has become a particularly urgent situation since the government has started

its mainstreaming of handicapped children into the school system. Has the minister

now prepared, and has he decided to give that today, a policy of government

with respect to that situation?

HON. MR. SMITH:

Mr. Speaker, I gave an answer to the member in a general form when he

asked those questions. But I will have more to say on the matter in

specific terms. I hardly think it's an urgent matter today since most

of the schools in this province are closed until September 1. I will

have a further specific policy statement in due course.

MR. LAUK:

The reason for the urgency — which was quite properly questioned by the

minister in question period — is because of specific requests made to

me by trustees who are planning policy guidelines now for the new

school year. I expect that the same requests have been made to the

minister. Is that not true?

Orders of the Day

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Strachan in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF LABOUR

(continued)

On vote 146: minister's office, $155,758.

MR. HALL:

I'd like to spend a little time on this estimate, which I consider to

be one of the most important estimates to go through the House. It's

not that they are not all important, but this one in particular, I

think, should attract the attention of most members as it seeks to deal

with the health and well-being of people who work for a living and are

engaged in the workplace, the marketplace or anywhere else, especially

those in the organized section, where throughout the years they have

dealt particularly in the aspect of endeavour which we call collective

bargaining.

I was interested to hear one member make the

point that in recent times we have seen more days lost in this

province, not through matters which are under the control of this

minister, such as strikes, lockouts and stoppages, but due to illness

and things like that. We attend to other estimates by spending the kind

of money required for preventive care, and it's been suggested that if

we could have spent money in this estimate by setting up structures to

deal with the negotiating process, we might have saved ourselves a lot

of worry in working on that side of the equation.

I think

the minister knows of our concern on this side of the House, of the

increasing amount of material coming across the desks of members about

the Workers' Compensation Board and the problems associated with what

appears to be a deteriorating situation. I'd like to discuss with the

minister something about the Workers' Compensation Board.

When

I was a first a member, one of the very first cases I had in this field

was to do with an injured worker whose injury did not appear on any of

the schedules. I made some representations on his behalf. After some

time, I was delighted to be able to notify the injured workman not only

that his

[ Page 3490 ]

claim

had been successful, but that a very large sum of money in back

time-loss payments was obtained. I felt that I had really made a

tremendous impact on the whole scene of dealing with workers'

compensation. The very first case was a clear winner, a very satisfied

constituent. Only I found to my horror that it had nothing to do with

me, very little to do with the workman and very little to do with any

of the people I spoke to. It was, indeed, a change in the

schedule

which had been coming for about four years, starting off in the

province of Ontario. It was the simple addition of one disease to the

schedule, namely Caisson disease, the disease that people who work

under atmospheric pressure suffer from.

Here we've got

another

schedule change, which was discussed at some length yesterday,

and that's what I want to deal with with the minister. The minister

told us yesterday, in the case of the firefighters of the province,

that he felt that the subsequent changes to the original draft

schedule

were enough to satisfy those concerns that were put forward by the

firefighters of the province. I'd like to suggest to the minister that

they don't, that the

schedule 1s not good enough, that there are still

serious concerns about what has happened to the firefighters of the

province. May I quote from my letters here — that the proposed change,

the original change in the

schedule would cause great hardship to

provincial firefighters.

"The change will

attempt to completely change

schedule B by deleting injury to the lung

as being job-related, and injury to the heart as myocardial infarction

within 48 hours of the onset of the infarction. It is also the board's

intention to place the onus of proof that the injury is job-related

onto the worker. It should be pointed out that a firefighter is

required to work under extremely adverse conditions, caused by an

uncontrollable variety of emergency situations. These situations

continually expose firefighters to great psychological stress, as well

as a variety of noxious gases and fumes. Whilst the effects of one

exposure, if severe enough, will likely cause immediate medical

problems, a grave concern of firefighters is the cumulative effect

these exposures have on the body. "

There was a change in

that original draft, and there's no doubt that the changes have removed

from the complaint that I've just given to you those concerns about

myocardial infarction.

Schedule B, as circulated to us on June 18,

indicates on page 3, I think, a clear definition that meets the

complaint. What it doesn't meet is the first part of the complaint, and

that is associated lung injury. I think we've just got to keep on

working at that, and this is the place to work at it. I think we have

to ask again for the kinds of activity by the ministerial staff and

minister that the second member for Victoria (Mr. Hanson) was talking

about. It's not good enough to meet only half the problem; you've got

to meet it all. If their brief met your standards in dealing with the

myocardial infarction, then, in my view, the other point was well made

and should have been recognized.

I think that the changes

don't recognize the critically important fact of the continuous

exposure over a firefighter's life, which we recognize in a number of

statutes, including the one by the Provincial Secretary (Hon. Mr.

Wolfe) on pensions. We recognize it through the Provincial Secretary in

terms of retirement out of the public service. We recognize it in the

frequent reports from the fire commissioner. Continuous exposure to

noxious gases and fumes contributes immensely to the lung problems of

firefighters. I think that should be one of the main areas upon which

the minister should be active whenever we see these schedules.

It's

in the changes of these schedules that, I think, there lies embedded

some of the attitudinal, mind-set criticisms that the second member for

Victoria discussed yesterday afternoon. It's in that area, together

with the original

interpretation of settling in favour of the worker

when doubt exists, that I believe most of the trouble arises.

It's

my view, as an MLA of some years' standing now, in terms of dealing

with cases over my desk, that there has been an increased frequency of

complaints in these last two years, that I've reported to people I meet

in industry. This is one which has not been answered. I think the

minister knows that; I think all members of the House know that. There

has been an increase in the number of complaints, and I think that

doesn't bode well for the future of relationships within the

constituency that the minister has to deal with — that is, the labour

relations of the province. Nothing is more calculated to disturb the

equanimity of labour relations than for people to go to the bargaining

table with a chip on their shoulder about what's happening in the

workplace. If you can get rid of some of these things, and I think you

should be able to, then it'll be a smoother and easier passage.

The

next point, if I may, deals with the minimum wage. The minister's own

statement on May 22 was not as fulsome as I thought it might have been.

I suppose the minister had something to tell us and wasn't too sure how

to tell us the good news because it was so late and perhaps too little.

He attempted to do that by telling us on the second page of his release

that members of cabinet and his ministry had been most concerned about

the need to offset the erosion of the buying power of employees at the

lower levels of the wage scale. The new rates are a reflection of that

concern. The concern was going to take seven months to come into

operation. That concern over seven months, I think, is slow concern.

That concern about the buying power of people who are going to get

$3.65 an hour came after the minister's concern about the gradual

imposition of this increase on the employers of the province over a

seven-month period.

I don't know whether we should get

terribly exercised about which group you talk about first, but it seems

to me that the two-stage aspect of the announcement, serving to alert

employers in a gradual way to the implementation of the ultimate

increase to $3.65 an hour for employees, followed by this little worry

about the erosion of buying power over the preceding five years, was

really too little and too late, which brings me to the point I think we

have to address.

The government as a whole, of which you are

a member, in my view wants to introduce the principle of indexing on

every single receivable it's got coming: every fee, licence and charge;

every dollar bill it's got coming from anybody. Every receipt it wants

to index. Everything that has to do with money going out, every cheque,

every piece of legislation that deals with money going out, it doesn't

want to index at all. It wants to index receipts but doesn't want to

index cheques. I can't make more than passing reference to bills before

the House, but it certainly wants to index what people pay here. It

doesn't want to index what is obviously a figure in a statute that

should be indexed to protect the buying power of those people least

able to withstand inflation; those are the working poor of the province

who have to get by on minimum wage.

The minister's comments that the increase will come in stages to make it easy on employers sounds to me as though

[ Page

3491 ]

the minister, if he won't index it.... He talks

about the employers first and then as an afterthought says: "After

seven months we'll do something and it will go a little way towards

easing the erosion that has taken place over the preceding four years."

That, I think, can be characterized as too little and too late. It

would have been nice if the minister could have got those situations

reversed.

I do want to say to the minister that he should

seriously consider this, if he is going to follow the Minister of

Health (Hon. Mr. Mair) and others in indexing: if you are going to

index what is coming in, then you'd better make sure you index what is

going out. That is a fairly good principle.

I don't intend

to be very long in this estimate, for a change. Other speakers have

dealt with larger questions, questions of policy and some principle.

Here is a question from the Corporation of the District of Surrey on

the employment opportunity program and the cutbacks in funding to the

municipality's summer program. The number of students approved by the

time the activities had to be organized and planned — approved by the

time Surrey was in the field — was the huge figure of 59. This was a

reduction of over 50 percent from the 1979 figure. Surrey, as my

colleague the first member will be only too pleased to tell you, is the

largest municipality in B.C., with a population of, it says here,

approximately 125,000. It sometimes seems to me we have a voting

population of 135,000 who seem to write to us every day. Certainly it

is the largest municipality in B.C. It is a community with a most

varied socio-economic base. It is certainly one with a high proportion

of low-income families. If you go through the annual reports of your

colleague, the Minister of Human Resources (Hon. Mrs. McCarthy), and

other ministers who administer portfolios that deal with problems, you

will see as an emanating source — if that's not a tautology — School

District 36 or the district of Surrey. It will show up in those reports

time and time again as being over the provincial per capita average as

a problem source, whether we are talking about single-parent families

or the proportion of people on some form of assistance.

only one area, and that's probably single young people on allowances,

will we be less than the provincial per capita average; that's because

we're not downtown. My colleague the first member for Surrey (Hon. Mr.

Vander Zalm) may have had something to do with that in years gone by;

that's another debate.

If ever a municipality needed help in

terms of summer programs and getting young people to work, because

there's not much of a transit system — if I may say to you, Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister of Labour and to my colleague, the first

member for Surrey — where people can get to summer jobs, if ever there

is a place that does need the kind of help that's got to be planned in

advance, not waiting for last minute decisions, it is our municipality

of Surrey.

The characteristics can't be overlooked and

should be given close attention. The applications were submitted only

after the closest consultation with line managers in terms of assessing

programs and the ways in which the organization can make an impact on

providing employment. The impact is curtailed. Students with previous

experience will now be unemployed in a municipality that already finds

difficulty in providing sufficient job opportunities in the area.

Regarding the reduction of funds in the labouring programs, our

organization has offered viable work experience for youths over the

last five years. It will be restricted unless it receives an additional

allocation.

It is important to bring to your attention, Mr.

Minister, what has already occurred in 1980 and has led to our present

disappointment with the funding allocation. We received a letter dated

January 10 from the employment opportunities program indicating that we

should anticipate our allocation for 1980 to be approximately the same

as that of 1979. We contacted the ministry. We have not yet received

funding for the parks and recreation program. We were advised the

budget for the 1980 Provincial Youth Employment Program had been

finalized and at this time they could not offer any encouragement

regarding additional funding, etc.

We've passed supply

estimates; we passed that bill that gave you some extra money; we've

passed all sorts of legislation, but no planning could take place as

recently as the end of May. I don't know what the latest is — frankly,

I did not know until yesterday at 2 o'clock that Labour would be

debated yesterday and today — but that is not good enough for a

municipality south of the river with the kinds of problems that I have

outlined to you, the kind of socio-economic base of Surrey, the eastern

part of Delta and the western part of Langley.

On my last

point, I once had the pleasure of introducing a visitor to this chamber

who had been the central figure in a worldwide news story. He became a

freeman of the city of London. He was a Member of Parliament in Great

Britain for many years. His name was Marcus Lipton. He was one of those

who said that there was indeed a third man in the conspiracy of Burgess

and MacLaine. The story that broke about the presence of that master

spy, Kim Philby, broke when Marcus Lipton was in this chamber some

years ago. His family lives in the Deputy Speaker's riding. I happen to

know the family well. I mention it because I got permission.

Two

of the things that the grand-nephew cherishes are a signed photograph

of the Premier of the province and a photograph of his soccer coach,

who shall be nameless. He was a grade A honour student. In my view he

could have gone to any university in this province. He was a year ahead

of his time. He chose not to, because this young fellow has got a

desire to work with wood. He went back to the country that his father

came from. He was an apprentice for a little while there, got to know

the tools and so on, but he came back. He was born in British Columbia.

He is a Canadian citizen. He's 18½ years of age and he wants to work in

wood. As I say, he was an honour student throughout all his high school

days, he was an accelerated student and could have been in any program

at all.

Let me read a letter referring to this young student:

"I wish to bring to your attention the appalling state

of the B.C. apprenticeship program. My son was indentured with

Earthwood Manufacturing Ltd., Richmond, on February 28. He's recently

received notification that his first class at the vocational institute

in Burnaby will commence on September 8, 1981"

That's 19 months after signing his apprenticeship that he gets his first class.

As an honour student — I don't think I need to go through that

record again.... And I'm, not getting combative about it. I'm not sure

that any of us have done a job with this. I'm not sure the labour

movement fully escapes some criticism about this either. Let me be the

first to say that.

"Governments in this province have failed totally in recognizing the need for facilities and instructors

[ Page 3492 ]

that would enable young people to enter the workforce. I urge

Premier Bennett and his government to consider again that the vast sums of money

that will be spent on showpieces in the lower mainland would not be better used

in upgrading and extending the technical establishments for the journeyman workers-to-be.

We constantly hear of the material riches of this province, but they will count

for nothing unless we have the skilled workers to recover and process them.

Brian Lipton, Delta. "

That's

the young fellow that I happen to have known for 11 out of the past....

Well, I've known him for longer than that, but I've had personal

contact with that young man and his family intimately for the last 11

years.

We're going to spend a lot of time, I think, in this

chamber talking about coal deposits, economic development, employment

opportunities, BCIT and, one of these days, universities and so on.

We're going to need more BCITs and money to BCITs than we are money to

UBCs if all of this other stuff is meaningful, if we are going to place

our feet on the path towards those kinds of technological improvements

that you're telling us about from time to time in these press releases.

If we're going to talk about lead and zinc smelters, copper smelters —

and you often are — and the technological spin-offs from those things

in the metallurgical industry, then you're going to be talking about

the Brian and Philip Liptons of the world. That's what you're going to

be talking about.

Mr. Minister, there is no point, in that

case, in training hairdressers and bodybashers. The majority of the

students who have gone through the problem in the last 20 years that

I've been involved in discussions either in this chamber or observing

from that gallery when I was a full-time administrative officer of the

New Democratic Party.... Most of the apprentices who've gone through

have either been driving spikes into 2-by-4s or straightening out

automobile bodies. And this is the golden state? This is where the

brain power is going to be?

I used to get into these

philosophical debates on labour, but I'm refraining from it because I

am not the lead-off spokesperson and I frankly don't feel that this

estimate with the new minister is perhaps the most opportune time. I am

serving notice, Mr. Minister, that we're going to have to, first of

all, watch your performance very closely. I'm saying that when this

estimate comes up again, as it will, next February or March — and I'm

being kind; I'm not being personally abusive — your lead-off remarks

will have to be a great deal more improved, qualitatively, than they

were yesterday.

HON. MR. HEINRICH: The first point

which the hon. member raised, again covering occupational health and

safety, was covered yesterday. Apparently I haven't demonstrated the

concern that members of the opposition would like. I thought that

schedule B as amended did reflect certain sensitivities, but I will

take note of the particular disease to which the hon. member refers. I

like your introductory remarks, Mr. Member. I was thinking that you had

done the job and then suddenly there was a change in the schedule,

which no one knew anything about. I think there's probably a lot of

truth on both sides of the House as far as that statement is concerned.

responded yesterday with respect to minimum wage. I advised the House

that comparatives across the provinces in Canada were viewed. The

stages, I thought, were probably fair to those that would have to pay.

I appreciate that it would have been nice, perhaps, to raise it to

$3.65 as of July 1, but I'm certainly not apologizing for the actions

which the government did take. I might advise the members that the

amount of the minimum wage in British Columbia is now in advance of

Alberta and, I believe, Ontario, or it will be as of December 1. I

might advise the House also that some of the thinking which I had at

the time was that July 1 was just the start of the summer and that gave

the students who are working for minimum wage the opportunity to take

advantage of it. Exactly the same thinking went into the date of

December 1, so that the increase then would catch those students who

are going to be employed during the Christmas holidays and they would

receive the same benefit.

With respect to the question

raised under employment opportunities, this is not the first time I

have been asked that question. The amount budgeted for local and

regional governments was roughly $2.5 million. I can tell you I had the

computer run off for me the allocation between all communities within

the province. It was allocated fairly and almost to the third decimal

point in proportion to population. I think the impact of the member's

comments is that more funding should be available in this area

generally towards local and regional governments. I will take note of

that matter, including Surrey.

I agree with the last point

the member raised and have for some time. It's been raised before, and

if I'm having some difficulty in expressing myself to get the point

across, I do hope time will change that. I'm well aware of the trades

to which the member refers, Mr. Chairman. The seven trades do not

incorporate the trades to which you refer. The seven designated trades

are: machinists, electronic technicians, instrument mechanics,

industrial electricians, millwrights, heavy-duty mechanics and diesel

mechanics. Each one of those trades, by its very definition, will be

the trade involved in accelerated economic activity, particularly in

the area of mining and forestry. I also recognize that these are not

the only trades, but they were the ones which were specifically

designated under the program submitted by the Provincial Apprenticeship

Board. I might also add that this information was found in a brief

prepared by the ministry for the Occupational Training Council.

would like to expand my answer on this point to the hon. member by

telling him that in addition to the apprenticeship program, the

accelerated portion to which reference has been made, these are the

items which are of concern to me, my ministry and my government. One is

to closely monitor the immigration of tradesmen to only allow for

offshore recruitment in cases of exceptional need. It's very easy for

me to say that, but we both know that immigration comes under the

jurisdiction of the federal government. But I do hope that that same

government would be receptive to the concerns we have, so we don't

abandon our young people and look offshore to fulfill our training and

trades requirements.

There is going to be encouragement of

employer and employee training committees. I've sought, received and

will continue to seek the cooperation of the employers and the trade

unions. One of the things which is really not in place but should be is

forecasting needs. I'm finding out that we're getting sharp bulletins

fired out of various offices, governments, ministries, saying that

there is going to be a substantial shortage. Suddenly it's recognized

they're talking in

[ Page

3493 ]

numbers which ate horrendous in size, and in no conceivable way could they be fulfilled in a short period of time.

It's

interesting to note that once some profile was given to the trades and

with the amount of discussion that has taken place in the last six

months, I'm finding that it's starting to move. It moves slowly to

start with, I'll admit. The momentum and the results, as far as first

indications are concerned, are most encouraging — and we really haven't

started yet.

Another item was mentioned yesterday, and I

think the hon. member was referring to involving women in the trade

unions. I recognize the small number. Most of the women in the trades

are in the area of hairdressing. But one of the points which I have

covered with my ministry is a way in which to increase the number of

women in trade areas. I've noticed this is moving along. I don't think

I want to expand on it, because I'm finding some difficulty in one

area. The difficulty in some areas in the workplace is that there are

times when women are not particularly interesting in enrolling. As a

matter of fact, I pursued this a bit further with one of the major

trainers in the province. It's interesting to note that he said the

opportunity was there, but because of shift work and types of working

conditions the ladies in this particular company — and it's a huge

company — declined the opportunity. Now I'm not saying that's typical,

but I might mention to you that that was my first experience on this.

There

is going to be planning for long-range initiatives to maintain adequate

future training of tradesmen, so we're forecasting.

There is

also another area which I am concerned about, and that is encouraging

the apprenticeship of native Indians. I've made some inquiries in this

area and am finding that the information being passed on to me is not

satisfactory at all. I don't think it's really proper to tell you some

of the reasons which were given to me, but I found them somewhat

disturbing.

Those cover the items, and I will try to assure

you, Mr. Member, that next February or March I'll be on my best

behaviour and try to do a better job for you.

[Mr. Mussallem in the chair.]

MS. BROWN:

I would like to talk about the human rights legislation and the Human

Rights Code, which this minister is responsible for. Somehow a memo

which was written to the minister came into my possession.

AN HON. MEMBER: In a brown envelope?

MS. BROWN:

That's right. It was written by a Mr. Guilbault, when he was the acting

director. Although it was written "Private and Confidential, " it was

riot nailed up on the wall of the press gallery.

[Mr. Hyndman in the chair.]

HON. MR. HEINRICH: Was it addressed to me?

MS. BROWN: Yes, it was addressed to the minister.

HON. MR. HEINRICH: To me or to my predecessor?

MS. BROWN: It was addressed to Mr. Jack Heinrich. Do you know him? You know him very well; okay.

Anyway, this memo dealt with the crisis of human rights legislation as a result

of some court decisions handed down by the supreme court in September of last

year. In his memo he said: "There are three gaping holes in the Human Rights

Code since the supreme court decisions of September 21 and October 25.''

I'll

just mention them very quickly. One has to do with the decision that

there would be no discrimination which offends against the code if the

person involved had an honest belief — "because of an honest belief.''

That was the first decision. The second one is that there is no basis

in law for the assertion that the code authorizes imposition of

"vicarious liability. — The third decision had to do with reasonable

cause — that an employer could refuse a person if the employer had

"reasonable cause to believe... " etc.

The memo, which is a very excellent memo — a super memo — goes on to say:

"The

'honest belief' defence, as sufficient against an allegation of

discrimination without reasonable cause, runs counter to the whole

history of human rights legislation in America. Anti-discrimination

legislation does not deal with prejudice. It is not a thought police.

The motivations, belief system or intentions of the respondent have

been considered irrelevant where rights of complainants have been

abrogated. "

The reason I'm raising this is that the memo

also had a number of recommendations to the minister in it. I'm

wondering what he is going to do about these three things, which I'll

repeat: honest belief, vicarious liability, and reasonable cause.

The other thing that he talked about was this:

"The

denial of 'vicarious liability' in human rights complaints, as a result

of the Nelson-Gubbins-Byron Price decision of October 25, 1979, is

possibly more serious than the 'honest belief' defence in its impact in

undermining the effectiveness of the Human Rights Code."

All

the way through this memo — to you, Mr. Minister — he talked about ways

in which the Human Rights Code was being undermined. And I'll remind

you that he referred to it initially as "three gaping holes" in the

human rights legislation.

The third area of concern is a

proposition that "the respondent would have reasonable cause to refuse

to employ a person if facts existed which were unknown to the

respondent at the time of refusal but otherwise would have been a basis

for refusal." He goes on to say: "Such a position seriously threatens

the argument of the discriminatory factor being only one of a number of

factors. Regardless of this, all of the weight of the discriminatory

factor in the decision at present constitutes unlawful discrimination."

It is a very long memo. If you've lost it I would be very happy to

Xerox my copy and send it on to you, because it is super. It is

excellent and I am stunned that there has been no action on it. In his

very last paragraph he says:

"Action on these

points is imperative. Cases routinely settled are now in limbo. Human

Rights staff are demoralized at the prospect of limited effectiveness

in gaining meaningful settlements where discriminatory impact is found"

— this is coming from the acting director of the human rights branch —

"and protected groups will soon discover that rights they are only

beginning to exercise with some assurance have withered away as a

result of

[ Page 3494 ]

legal

convolutions. I recommend that legal opinions be sought from leading

thinkers in the field of human rights, such as Walter Tamopolsky of

Ontario, and a decision be taken to appeal the Gubbins case and to

immediately draft amendments to the legislation to close the gaping

holes now preventing its effective enforcement. "

question to the minister is: have these recommendations which were made

to him by the acting director of the Human Rights Commission in

November of last year been acted upon? We have not yet received in this

House the amendments which are to close the gaping holes.

Still

on the Human Rights Code, there are two other issues which I'd like to

bring to the minister's attention. One is that under the act it is

still possible for landlords to discriminate in terms of renting

accommodation to people on welfare, people who are handicapped or

families with children. That is another hole in the legislation.

addition, I received a letter in May of this year from someone in

Naramata — I think the minister got a copy of this letter — talking

about blatant sexual discrimination as practised by the British

Columbia Youth Soccer Association because of its refusal to allow his

daughter to play soccer.

Interjection.

MS. BROWN:

Has it been changed? Well, okay. Apparently the soccer association is

now allowing his daughter to play soccer, so that need not be handled.

The

last complaint I had about a failure of the human rights legislation

was the business of credit. Does the minister know that in the event of

a divorce, creditors can arbitrarily decide to cut off a woman's

credit, even if she is still capable of handling her credit rating?

Under the act she has no protection whatsoever.

The act has

one more weakness, and this is in its equal pay section. Presently, as

the act reads, it supports the concept of equal pay for equal work, but

it does not deal with the concept of equal pay for work of equal value.

In Burnaby at this time there is a strike involving 400 workers who are

locked in a labour dispute with the Kenworth trucking company because

that company has refused to pay the women who are data processors a

wage equal to that it is paying the unskilled summer help which it is

hiring. In order to work as a data processor at Kenworth — they are all

women — you have to have two years' experience and your starting wage

is $7.07 an hour. Summer help — unskilled help, however — is hired in

the factory at $8.17 an hour. The union involved tried to negotiate to

have the data processors' wage at least equal to that of the casual

summer help, and the company has refused to deal with this. A spokesman

for the company, Mr. Ed. Bluen, says that it is not a major economic

issue to Kenworth — "I guess you could say it is a matter of principle.

Mr. Hugh Ladner of Kelowna was the lawyer who had hearings on this particular

issue. In bringing down his decision, Mr. Ladner says: "It is not my responsibility

to correct the ills of our society." He rejected the union's complaint

that this was a blatant case of discrimination and that there was absolutely

no reason why the women data processors with two years' experience were

being paid less than casual workers being hired as summer help.

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

I would hope that the

minister would introduce an amendment to that

section of the Human

Rights Code, which now says "equal pay for equal work." The amendment

would add to that "equal pay for work of equal value. " This is only

one case where a labour dispute around this issue is involved at this

time, but it happens in a number of other instances. That particular

section of the act needs to be amended. So much for the Human Rights

Code.

In December of last year the minister assured the

world that he would be establishing a women's labour office for British

Columbia. I'm kind of curious to know what's happened to that. He said:

"I think it would probably be an information-gathering centre and it

would give information.... He got a lot of support from every sector of

the community for that, because we do need a very active, very bright

and very sharp women's bureau that will distribute career and job

information and handle the whole business of counselling and helping to

get women into the kind of programs he described earlier. He said an

opportunity opened up and none of the women accepted it. Also the

minister received a number of briefs in support of this and I'm kind of

anxious to know what has happened to that brilliant promise which was

made on December 8, 1979. What is the status of that at this time?

There

are a couple of problems with the Factories Act. I think the minister

received a letter on May 12 dealing with the problems in the Factories

Act.

HON. MR. HEINRICH: Have you got a copy of that?

MS. BROWN: Yes. If the minister's lost his copy I'd be very happy to give him a copy of mine.

There

are two particular sections in the Factories Act which employers are

still using to keep women out of nontraditional jobs. The suggestion

which has been made to the minister is that these two sections be

amended to extend the protection presently in the act to cover male

workers as well. There really isn't any reason why these two sections

should have the word "female" in them, because they're very good

sections and should cover all workers. That would be one way of

preventing employers from using this as a loophole. They are the

sections that deal with the working locale, sections 23, 24, 30(

l) and

30(2). It has to do, as I said, with the restroom facilities, seating

arrangements and decent floor covering. These kinds of things really

should be available to every worker. It's unusual that the act should

discriminate and say only female workers should have this kind of

protection. I would like to see the act amended to extend this

protection to cover people of all sexes.

The minister has

answered a couple of questions to do with occupational health, but I'm

wondering whether he has taken specifically into account some of the

occupational health hazards which women are experiencing in the

workplace, specifically to do with our reproductive organs, our ability

to bear children and this kind of thing. One of the things that office

workers in particular have to deal with is a toner used in the Xerox

machine, which is called nitropyrene. Apparently lab studies done at

the Texas Medical Research Centre in Galveston have indicated that this

toner affects the chromosomes of cultured cells and transforms normal

cells to cancerous cells causing birth defects. Xerox, have admitted

that they knew about this a year ago, but they did nothing about it and

have presently just agreed to reduce

[ Page

3495 ]

the amount the chemical toner that's being used.

They have not recalled any of their older machines that still use the

old batches of it.

Restaurant workers have to work around

microwave ovens. There's been some report about long-reaching effects

if there are any leaks from the microwave oven. I don't know whether

the minister has taken this into account or not.

I know he

has dealt with the issue of pesticides. Also, I'm not quite sure

whether he has taken into account the stress that leads to alcoholism

and which shows up in a number of other areas in the lives of these

people, such as in child abuse.

The final thing I have here

is "estrogen." I'm not quite sure what the particular issue is that has

to do with estrogen, but maybe the minister knows.

If you wouldn't mind answering those questions, I'd appreciate it.

HON. MR. HEINRICH: Mr. Chairman, I think I'll pass on the last question.

the second-to-last question, perhaps we could have an amendment. I

wasn't aware of the

section in the Factories Act to which you refer,

Madam Member. However, I will take note of it.

I would like

to go back and refer to the first letter which was apparently sent to

me. I wonder whether or not I could have the date of that letter. I

have some question as to whether I ever did get that letter.

MS. BROWN: What did you do with your copy?

HON. MR. HEINRICH:

That's the problem; I might not ever be able to find it. I'm not sure

of having received it. I'm just wondering whether or not I could have

the date, please.

MS. BROWN: The date of that letter is November 28, 1979. As I indicated earlier, I would be very happy to....

Because I've cut off all the evidence about how I got the letter, I'd be very happy to Xerox it and share it with you.

HON. MR. HEINRICH:

I will accept the offer. It seems to me that I was sworn in on the 23rd

of that month. For the first week I was probably somewhat detached and

in shock. I can't recall ever receiving anything like that. Shortly

thereafter there was a rather difficult labour dispute. I'm not making

excuses at all. I don't recall ever receiving that letter, but

appropriate inquiries will be made.

With respect to the item

on vicarious liability.... As I recall from some time ago, that

involves rent. The decision of Mr. Justice Martin Taylor and the

Supreme Court of British Columbia is now being appealed. It seems to me

that I authorized the appeal of that decision many months ago.

With respect to the matter raised concerning "honest belief, " I

believe that the author of that letter was involved in some discussion. The

decision of the B.C. court of appeal in the case — I believe it was Branca's

obiter dictum — was really overruled by Mr. Justice Martland in the Supreme

Court of Canada, who wrote on behalf of the majority. I cannot give you the

particulars, Madam Member, but I understand that he repudiated the matter of

Branca's views in the court of appeal, and that the Supreme Court of Canada

didn't really interpret the matter of "honest belief" in the way

in which it is recited in the correspondence which you have. I can't give

you any further particulars on that without having a detailed look into it,

I hope you appreciate that.

Regarding

the matter you raised involving the Status of Women's labour office,

yes, I did say what I did; I think it was sometime last December. It

should be readily apparent that that has not really come to pass in the

manner in which I thought it would. However, I might add that all of

the items which were raised are really being addressed within the

ministry by the director of the employment opportunities program.

MS. BROWN: No, they're totally different.

HON. MR. HEINRICH:

It may very well be that this is not a sufficiently high profile to

satisfy what you feel the objectives ought to be. I accept your

criticism.

The other items you raised contain some

substance. I don't think I should enter into debate on these items,

giving some thought to them. I can't argue with your statement: equal

pay for work of equal value. I understand the case to which you refer,

but I'm not about to discuss or debate that topic in the House if it's

a matter of a dispute that should be settled by a collective agreement,

particularly when negotiations are ongoing.

With respect to

the other item, I don't have particulars on it, but there were three

items that you raised. The last was "reasonable cause," was it not? I

haven't got any particulars, but I gather there are two schools of

thought on it. Some think it's too broad and others think it's too

narrow. I gather that there has been protection afforded in the areas

of maternity and handicap and there are cases to support it, but

without finding out a lot of details I'm not prepared to speak on it at

all. I'm sorry.

On the other items — on toner and Xerox — I

can't raise anything, but that intrigues me. I would ask if I could

have a copy of that

article that you have.

MS. BROWN: I think the minister should put me on his research staff. This is ridiculous.

would prefer that no decision is made about the issues raised in this

memo until you've read it, because I think you are quite right. It

needs a lot more serious thought and it probably should not have been

sent to you three days after your appointment, when you were still in

shock.

I just want to say very quickly and briefly how very

disappointed I am that you have decided to back down on your commitment

to establish a women's bureau in B.C. That job cannot be done by anyone

else. Most of the hard data that we get, the research that's done and

the counselling and information on women in the labour force that we

have in this country comes out of the Women's Bureau in Ontario, as

part of the Ontario government's Women Bureau, which should be a model

for every other women's bureau in Canada — and also from the federal

government. So if there's anything at all that I can do to help the

minister to rethink this particular decision I would really appreciate

it.

I just want to very quickly give him those sections in

the Factories Act again that need to be amended. They are sections 23,

24, 31, dealing with the inspector talking about seating, etc., and 32,

dealing with the business about the surface of the floor, and simply

suggesting that it be amended to extend to cover all workers and not

just women who work, because those are very important issues. I will

have this memo Xeroxed and sent over to you as quickly as possible.

MR. MITCHELL: I would like to cover a couple of

[ Page 3496 ]

subjects

that I have dealt with earlier in the House. They are subjects I feel

must be brought to the attention of the government — issues that are

developing in our workforce today. We all realize that industrial

hygiene and safety are far more important today and are going to affect

every worker in the workforce. More so, it's going to affect the

society because of the lasting damage that some of our new industrial

development is causing to those who are working in it.

Earlier

on, in questions to the Minister of Labour, I brought to his attention

the problem that happened in the shipyard of Esquimalt, when the

Minister of Transportation and Highways (Hon. Mr. Fraser) was doing his

remodelling job on the Queen of Prince Rupert .

Maybe it was a mistake, and I will say it was. There was in this

mistake a large group of workers who were exposed to a high

concentration of asbestos dust, which each one of them breathed in.

What really bothers me, the workers and the trade union movement is the

complete callous disregard in that industry for bringing the

information out to those who were exposed of what actually happened.

When

I first brought it to the attention of the minister and when the first

inspections were made by the Workers' Compensation Board, the inspector

never even went on board the ship. It took a second complaint to get

tests made on the atmosphere that the people were working in. The first

test or the first exposure was on a Tuesday; it came to my attention on

Wednesday; I brought it to the attention of the House on Thursday;

Friday the inspector attended the yard. It wasn't until Tuesday the

following week that tests were made on the atmosphere, and all through

that period, through the weekend, on a 24-hour-a-day basis people were

working in that air that was charged, or suspected to be charged, with

dangerous levels of asbestos.

I feel it was a complete

disgrace to all the great work the Workers' Compensation Board has

done, all the great work that many, many members in the Ministry of

Labour have pioneered to bring in. They sat on that report; it took

over two weeks to release it, to come up with the answer that the level

of asbestos was over the accepted danger level, and for two weeks

people were working in it. At the same time there were TV news reports

where the employer said that that ship was as clean as his desk. To me

this was deceptive. I don't say it would be deliberately deceptive,

because I know you would rule me out of order, but it was deceptive:

and I say so because later on, when it was proven that this particular

atmosphere was dangerous, when this ship was completed and the report

was released.... I imagine down the red tape there will be a certain

fine, or a tap on the wrist will be given to the employer. When this

ship was ready to sail, again I raised it and asked what tests had been

made. A test was made, and in less than 24 hours after that test was

made, the results came in that they were below the safe level required

by the particular compensation regulation.

This is the part

that, I think, really should be stressed to the minister and to the

whole ministry: these levels established by compensation boards in

industrial nations of a safe level for asbestos as autopsies are

conducted and as doctors and laboratories make tests and studies. They

have found that there is no safe level for asbestos. Because of that

recognition, because of the knowledge that has been gained, they have

continually lowered that particular

section on what is a hazard, and

each year it's getting lower.

It bothered me that the department of industrial hygiene can sit on information

that concerns the health of the workers as if it's some God-endowed information

that only they can have. When the unions and I as the MLA representing many

of those workers asked what the level was, the result came out that it was below

the 0. 5 degree, but when I asked how far below it was I was denied that information.

If it was nil, it should have been said it was nil; if it was 0.4, if it was

0.3, if it was 0. 1, I think the workers who have been exposed over a period

of time to a high degree of asbestos dust in the air should have the knowledge

and should be supplied with the information what level it is once it got below

the level of 0.5.

[Mr. Davidson in the chair.]

This

is the part that I say is important, because as they go on working in

different industries, they're going to come up for medical tests. I

feel that each worker who was on that ship and who was exposed to that

level of industrial asbestos dust should be supplied by the Workers'

Compensation Board with a full and detailed report of what levels they

were working in and what the level was when they finished up.

Statistically, in later years a certain percentage of those will be

affected by that dust. They should be supplied now with that

information, so that when doctors are testing them, when they move on

to different cities and towns, they can go to a doctor, and if they

have lung diseases or respiratory problems, they have that knowledge

and they can say: "Yes, back in 1980 I worked in a shipyard and was

exposed to a high level of asbestos dust." This evidence should be

supplied by your ministry; I think you have a responsibility.

The

part that really bothered me was that it took continual badgering by

the trade union movement and the MLA to expose this problem and bring

it to the ministry. I feel it is not the responsibility of the trade

unionists, or the MLA, but that of the Workers' Compensation Board and

the Ministry of Labour to be the pioneers, the investigators, and to be

out in front to protect the health of those in the industry. There are

many industries that are not organized or who do not have the

collective knowledge or power of a trade union. It should be the

inspectors who are out there looking for this danger. It should be the

inspectors out on that job who are exposing it, bringing it to a head,

and not being pushed willy-nilly by groups that happen to be organized.

I think that this is one of the remodelling jobs that....

hope the new minister goes in there with the idea that his

responsibility is not to protect and deceive the industrial employer,

but to protect the health of each and every one of those workers,

because good health, and the right to good health, is not some fringe

benefit that is granted to those who are well organized, but it is a

right of every British Columbian.

I hope that the minister,

when he looks at it, will look at it with an open mind. I hope that he

is prepared to change the approach and not accept the attitude that

certain people within the department can sit on this information and

that responsible people, like the trade union movement or the MLA, can

be denied information that is there for the protection of the people.

would like to go on and discuss another issue that has been part of my

active involvement in construction and the trade union movement over

the years. It is also part of my active involvement with youth groups.

That is to support your new approach to apprenticeship training. I

agree completely with you that we must look at apprenticeship training

in this province. Not only is it a necessity, but again, it is a right

to those who are coming up in our work force.

I know that if we are going to make certain priorities,

[ Page

3497 ]

maybe you are wise to pick as a priority that we

provide immediate employment. But there are other trades and other

citizens and other students who may never become industrial

electricians, who may never have the ability to be a diesel mechanic.

But they, too, Mr. Minister, should have the right that we in society

are going to accept the responsibility to prepare them to be able to go

out and earn a good, fair and decent wage. To allow kids to go through

12 years of schooling, and when they reach the end, if, for some

unknown reason, they have capabilities to be industrial designers, or

their physical capabilities are not those they'll need in the coal

fields, but they do have talents, they do have trade skills that are

needed to keep our society in operation, to develop our society....

There should be through your department, through the employer councils,

through the trade union movement, and through the educational branch,

that we come up with a new concept in education and training for

apprenticeships, one that is going to give the kids of today more hope

than some of them have right now.

I know you can talk about

motherhood issues, if you don't have a trade, you get into trouble and

it costs us $40,000 a year to keep people in jail. We all know these

statistics. I know a few will go to jail but the vast majority of kids

will not. They will not cost society $40,000, but they will cost

society a lot more in frustration and discouragement and a lot more

because they are not producing the goods and resources that they are

capable of. We will be losing their talents and abilities and we will

not be utilizing the resources that make up British Columbia, for part

of those resources are the youth of this province.

closing, I am not one who is going to jump on the minister because he

is new. Others of us are new in the House this year. I feel that it is

really important that we look at it with a little new twist to it. If

we are going to have apprenticeship training, don't be afraid to change

what has happened before. In many cases a person had to be locked into

a four- or five-year indenture to a certain company. I feel we have to

be a little more flexible; we must be prepared to combine the technical

training that can be given in the schools with the ability to move

apprentices around from one company to another so they can get the

specialized training that is needed. I will use construction as an

example: there will be some who can work with a framing crew and next

year they can go to work in a factory producing cabinets, We need to

set up a curriculum of training for each and every trade and to insist

that they go through the different types of training. For companies

that can take a person for two or three months, they should be

encouraged to take him, but there should be a monitoring effect from

your department and the trade union movement and the other groups who

should be vitally involved. This whole program of training should not

be considered — as I said in Health — a fringe benefit but an

investment by our province in a lot of great kids who are going to

pioneer the north, build the cities and produce the wealth that we are

going to need.

In closing, I say again that these are the

things I think are important. As we go through your estimates, in

certain sections of it I would like to bring up some special

involvement on certain parts of your ministry.

HON. MR. HEINRICH:

I have one quick answer to your opening comments with respect to

asbestos. I have come to the conclusion that it is primarily one of

attitude among some employers. The fact is, I think a number of them

recognize that what they are doing is really taking a chance. They know

it in advance, but let's take the chance. I have come to the conclusion

that that is probably what happened in the case which you and I had

some discussions on earlier in the year.

The matter which

was raised by the member for Cowichan-Malahat (Mrs. Wallace) I think is

typical of a problem of attitude by employers. I suppose there are a

number of ways to address it. I need not raise them now, but I am aware

of it and perhaps will do something as time goes on. My word "perhaps"

is quite strong, to tell you the truth.

I am glad you are on

record, Mr. Member, with respect to your last item regarding

apprenticeships. I think what you were alluding to is compression of

the time-span of the conventional apprenticeship period, because this

is a matter which we are now addressing. Also we are considering the

portability of the apprenticeship period and whether or not it is going

to go for a period of two years or a year and a half and somebody wants

out for six months or a year and then moves in to some other area of

technology where, in fact, there is a real demand. I want you to know

that this matter is being considered and that is the very reason why

there was an appointment within the ministry of an assistant deputy

minister with a wealth of experience in the area of training and

apprenticeship. That is why he is in the role he now occupies. He was

appointed on April 1. He was back about May 15 and he's been going gung

ho on it ever since.

MR. MITCHELL: I would just like

to add to what the minister said. It's not only employers; there are a

lot of employees out there who really don;t understand the danger of

industrial hygiene. This is a program that has to be sold by competent

inspectors to industry and industrial workers. Their health is the most

important part of their future and it's a necessity. I'm glad to hear

you say that there is a possibility that they are looking at the

affordability of training. I think this is the only way we're going to

have to go.

MR. COCKE: I had a little chat with the

minister last night about a quarter to six. During that chat I asked

whether or not the minister had his eye at all on the question of

right-to-work. I hear one thing and see other things in this

government, with respect to their attitude toward right-to-work. Mr.

Chairman, you and I know that right-to-work is a euphemism for

labour-union busting, for creating an atmosphere within the workplace

where people can be better enslaved than they can when they have the

protection of their own association. It's pure and simple; that's the

way I see it. Of course, the great advocate of this in this province is

the ICBA, which is the Independent Canadian Businessmen Association.

They are the same group that works very hard in your riding. As a

matter of fact most of their brochures, I note, are printed in

Abbotsford. It strikes me that the member for that area should probably

be aware of the town of Abbotsford.

In any event, the ICBA

have had a real influence in this party. The previous Minister of

Labour wrote a letter to the governor of a state in the Union asking

about their referendum on right-to-work. He then sort of sluffed it

off: "Well, you have to get as much information as you can. " The fact

is he's keeping his options open depending on which way the party goes.

I'm asking the Minister of Labour how he feels about the whole question

of right-to-work. I note the Chairman is uneasy about this question.

[ Page 3498 ]

MR. CHAIRMAN:

Order, please. Hon. member, the Chairman is not uneasy about the

question. The Chairman would like to draw to the attention of the

member our standing orders and, of course, the rules that govern debate

in committee. I would remind the member that the administrative action

of a department is open to debate, but the necessity for legislation

and matters involving legislation cannot be discussed in Committee of

Supply. Clearly, hon. member, the Chair's

interpretation at this point

is that the member is venturing into the area of legislation, whether

required or otherwise.

MR. COCKE: Yes, Mr. Chairman,

you're quite right that one must not discuss legislation. That's why

I'm discussing the minister's attitude toward the right-to-work

proposition. You see, Mr. Chairman, you don't need legislation. What

you need is a minister that has a mind to see to it that the people in

the workplace are not going to get the protection of his office and you

have something that is tantamount to a right-to-work situation. It

can't ever get that bad unless the government goes crazy, and I think

they've learned a lesson, judging from the way they've treated the

matter at their conventions. There is still a concern. I have a real

concern because I know there are some heavy-duty members of that

caucus. I may only mean that by the bathroom scale. Nonetheless, there

are some people over there who have made remarks in this chamber that

lead me to believe that they would favour that kind of proposition in

our province. So, Mr. Chairman, I just wonder how the Minister of

Labour feels with respect to that whole question, and how he feels he

can handle the ICBA, who in their most recent bulletin that I just read

a few minutes ago were raising Cain about farmworkers having some

protection, and charging that it was Cesar Chavez that has moved his

troops into Canada. Poor little Cesar. I'm sure that he would be

thrilled to know that he had all that strength, that he could come up

and move his troops to Canada and do a job on these poor farmers in

this province. I would just like to know how the minister feels about

the whole question.

HON. MR. HEINRICH: I've heard

this said again and again. It's been a policy of the government that

what is conveniently defined by the member as.... I defy him to define

it, to be honest with you. To satisfy the member, I do not support the

item he has been referring to in some bulletin. I don't know what the

bulletin is. I still maintain that we have done our level best to

preserve the tradition of good, strong collective bargaining and the

right to be represented by unions if you so wish. Many people do and it

is fully supported. I don't know what more I can really say. I think

that really, with all due respect to the member, he is looking for a

fly in the ointment and, to be honest with you, I haven't found it

there and I don't think I will.

MR. COCKE: One

doesn't necessarily have to look in the ointment for a fly. I've been

here for 11 years and I've heard the speeches across the floor of this

House, and I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that it is not just a remote

possibility that that government has flirted with this whole question.

I don't think that it's irresponsible for a member of this House to

find out what the Ministry of Labour's attitude is and the attitude of

the minister who is in charge of that.

Interjection.

MR. COCKE:

The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Hon. Mr. Vander Zalm) might have his

own opinion. They have never been opinions that have weighed heavily

with me. I don't lose much sleep at night worrying about his opinions,

as I'm sure he will not worry about mine. We have about the same

respect for one another today as we've had for a number of years and

will have for some years to come. I feel that his job of growing tulips

was probably far more important than the one he is doing now.

MS. SANFORD:

I had a couple of questions relating to some of the statements made

yesterday. Did the minister, yesterday afternoon, indicate to the

Legislature that he had received approval from the Treasury Board for

funding with respect to his new, expanded apprenticeship program? Did

he make any reference about funding there? I wonder if I can get the

minister to respond to that for me,

HON. MR. HEINRICH: I don't recall if I said it or not, but I can assure the member that I have approval.

MS. SANFORD: How much?

HON. MR. HEINRICH:

Quite substantial; but, in fairness, it is over a period of time. As a

matter of fact, Madam Member, I have the press releases being typed

right now and I was hoping to have it this afternoon. Maybe I'll have

it tomorrow.

MS. SANFORD: I am assuming that the press release will state what the

article in the Vancouver Sun

stated a couple of weeks ago, I believe — this imminent announcement of

a $14.4 million program over a period of two years. Am I making the

announcement on behalf of the minister this afternoon? It is not quite

typed. All right.

This money is going to be handed to the

various companies of the province. I know my colleague, the member for

Shuswap-Revelstoke (Mr. King), yesterday raised this whole issue and

his concerns about the approach the minister is taking with respect to

trying to have industry carry its fair share of the load in terms of

training the skilled trades people that it needs. I am concerned about

the fact that the minister is adopting this particular approach to the

problem. I know he said yesterday that this was the recommendation of

his newly appointed apprenticeship board. I doubt very much if that was

a unanimous recommendation of the apprenticeship board.

Yesterday

the MLA for Shuswap-Revelstoke indicated that the Employers Council of

the province understands that it's the obligation of the employers to

take on the job of training apprentices. Sure they haven't done it —

and it seems to me that the minister should have been applying

pressure, or threats if necessary, with respect to some sort of levy

system or whatever else, rather than this $14.4 million that the

minister is going to announce later this afternoon when the press

release is typed. Surely they understand that it's their obligation.

Surely the minister recognizes, even though he made reference to the

fact that the immigration policy is one of the federal government, that

Canada is no longer the attractive place that it used to be for these

highly skilled, highly trained European tradesmen. They don't want to

come to Canada the way they used to, and that's one of the reasons we

have this critical shortage at this time.

[ Page 3499 ]

But

it's not only the Employers Council as such; it's various people in the

industry who are saying: "Look, it is our obligation and we must do

it.---And still the minister insists on putting out some $14.4 million

of taxpayers' money in order to have these employers carry on a

responsibility that they know is theirs.

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

The

president of Placer Development, Ross Duthie, has said that the

industries that rely on skilled tradespeople have "an obligation to

train apprentices." He knows it. Here is one of the big corporations of

the province saying, "We have this obligation," yet the minister is

going to go ahead and give out this taxpayers' money holus-bolus, at a

time when they've got a hiring freeze, for heaven's sake. They can't

even hire physiotherapists or all these other people required to carry

out basic services to people, but he's going to hand this over to the

employers so that they can do their duty. It is their obligation; they

recognize it. All they need is some prodding from that minister and, as

I say, the possibility of a threat through a levy system or some other

way.

Mr. Duthie of Placer Development also says: "Even if there is a possibility

that the workers may leave after training is completed, companies must assume

the responsibility of helping to maintain adequate numbers of skilled workers

in the economy." Now these are the industry's leaders saying this, and

yet this minister decides that the best way to handle the problem is to hand

out money to these companies so that they can do what is their obligation and

their responsibility.

know this was dealt with yesterday, but it angers me. I just don't

think that the minister has done enough work on this, and I know it's

his favourite pet project. I'm also disappointed, Mr. Chairman, that

the minister has been unable to work out any kind of program with Lloyd

Axworthy, the federal minister. About $6 million of federal money will

be spent. He mentioned yesterday that he didn't understand where I

obtained that figure, but it will be spent this year in B.C., and I

hope that the minister will cheek this out on his own. There is no

organization, no cooperation, no sense at all of understanding that the

province and the federal government can work together if this is the

route that they have decided upon as the only way they can go.

Another

point I would like to make that I did not make yesterday, Mr. Chairman,

relates to the program now underway with the Workers' Compensation

Board with respect to the old pensions — that is, those pensions that

needed upgrading, that needed to be looked at in terms of the increase

in the cost of living, which could not be anticipated some 15 or 20

years ago when injured workers went on pension. It has taken them six

years to implement the changes in legislation which permitted the

Workers' Compensation Board to have a look at these old pensions in

order to upgrade them so that they would more closely reflect what has

happened in terms of the value of today's dollar. It took the Workers'

Compensation Board six years to figure out how they could possibly

upgrade these pensions so that they would be more in line with the

value of today's dollar. Now why on earth would it take that long? I

submit, Mr. Chairman, that it is yet another ex ample of the way in

which the Workers' Compensation Board is interested more in saving

money and keeping costs down than in serving the needs of the injured

workers of the province.

I would like to request the

minister at this stage to have a look at the possibility — and I

realize that he has to relay this to the Workers' Compensation Board

itself — of including widows, whose husbands would have been eligible

for a review of their pensions had they lived, Is there any way that

the inadequate pensions of the widows of these fatally injured workers

could be upgraded at the same time? It's just now that this program is

beginning in earnest. There was a slight attempt made last year to do

some testing on the program, but really, Mr. Chairman, after six years,

let's get the job done and let's include the widows' pensions as well.

It's my understanding that they are not now included.

Just

recently the minister appointed a mediator in the construction industry

dispute, without a request from either the industry or the construction

trades, As a matter-of fact, the minister was criticized by both

sides....

HON. MR. HEINRICH: Be careful.

MS. SANFORD: I have press clippings that say you were criticized.

HON. MR. HEINRICH: Oh, I know that.

MS. SANFORD: Was the press in error again?

HON. MR. HEINRICH: No.

MS. SANFORD:

All right. So he was criticized by both sides, Mr. Chairman, for

interfering prematurely in the general process of collective

bargaining, and the two sides felt that in fact his appointment was

detrimental to the successful negotiation of a contract.

I'm

satisfied and very pleased that the two sides have resolved their

differences. It appears that way at the moment, at least. But I'm

interested in a comment that was made today by the minister, indicating

that he will not appoint a mediator in the brewery dispute.

He's

had a request from the brewery workers who are facing a lockout as of

tomorrow, and he has indicated that he will not appoint a mediator

there at this stage, that really the two sides need to have more time

in which to resolve their differences.

Mr. Chairman, I would

like the minister to explain why he has taken these two completely

different tacks in terms of those two disputes. I hope the minister

will answer that right now.

HON. MR. HEINRICH: I will

confine my response to the last question raised by the hon. member for

Comox. In the matter of the construction industry, I knew, by putting

in two mediation officers — the job was to be shared — that there would

be a fair amount of ventilation, and there would be some annoyance with

me. I was quite prepared to be the meat in the sandwich, and I'll tell

you why.

In that case the construction industry had not used

the mediation services at all. The timing for it was critical. A

mediator was not requested and I admit that. I'm not going to discuss

it, because I think it's purposeless at this time to discuss the

reasons and who should ask the questions and all of this. If I had

appointed a mediator after the strike vote or the lockout vote was in

and announced, the immediate accusation was coming that I'd stepped in,

interfered, and in

[ Page 3500 ]

fact

barred a lockout or a strike. So you can appreciate why the timing was

such as it was. Of course, you can't knock success either. The

construction dispute would appear to be resolved.

As a

matter of personal interest, you might be interested in knowing that

this was done on Friday. The following Saturday and Saturday night I

wrote out in some detail the reasons why I did it. It's rather

interesting to look back, because that was making a move before the

ultimate conclusion of an event. Sometimes there is a little risk

involved, and perhaps a little courage helps as well.

The

hon. member refers to the case of the breweries and the fact that I

will not appoint an industrial inquiry commissioner. There's quite a

difference between a mediator and an 11C, and the brewery workers were

asking for an IIC. In that case a mediator had been in.

remember also that the mediator had worked; he has the ability to go

back in. An IIC, I might tell you, leads the public to greater

expectations of a solution to a problem.

I might also

mention that there should be consent and cooperation between the

parties. In this case right now with the brewery workers, there is

considerable opposition by one of the parties. So what's the point of

having an industrial inquiry commissioner appointed when in fact

neither party is going to cooperate?

I don't know whether or

not I have explained clearly to the member the reason for the

difference. It's important. In one case there had never been mediation.

Before it goes to the public, before they go out, I think it's

important that we at least offer them the mediation services portion of

the ministry. In the case of the breweries, they have had that

advantage. I can't see myself arbitrarily appointing an industrial

inquiry commissioner. They must cooperate with the mediation officers;

there was a considerable degree of cooperation. Right now all the

reports to me indicate that it was a good move.

MS. SANFORD:

It's always interesting to watch a newly appointed minister, and to see

how he does in his new portfolio. This minister, who was a rookie MLA

when he was first appointed to the position of Minister of Labour, was

particularly interesting to watch because of his background and history

with respect to his political interests. We know that the minister, who

is the member for Prince George, had worked very hard for another

political party. I understand that he worked hard for the Liberals.

HON. MR. HEINRICH: That's right.

MS. SANFORD:

He raised money for the Liberals. He had a lot of friends in the legal

profession, and outside of it, who were Liberals. So it's particularly

interesting to watch this new minister.

For instance, I

wondered how this new MLA, with his very strong Liberal background, was

going to get along with members who have been Socreds for a long time.

The MLA for Dewdney (Mr. Mussallem) just left the chamber. The MLA for

Dewdney has been a Socred member for years and years. I was wondering

how this member with his particularly Liberal philosophy was going to

get along and fit in with MLAs who have long-established Social Credit

backgrounds. I wondered how he was going to fit in with his other

cabinet colleagues — you know, some of the others from northern areas,

like the MLA for Omineca (Mr. Kempf) or the MLA for North Peace River

(Mr. Brummet). They have been long-time members of the Social Credit

Party, I understand.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, we really must....

MS. SANFORD: Oh, this relates to his administrative responsibilities, I can assure you.

MR. CHAIRMAN:

The administrative responsibilities of the department and the minister.

I really cannot accept comments about the personality of the minister

when he is before the committee, or of other members.

MS. SANFORD:

I'm not speaking about his personality at all, Mr. Chairman. I'm

talking about how he as a minister in this government would be able to

carry out his administrative duties as Minister of Labour in

conjunction with a group of people who really have a different

philosophy and different background. At least, that is what one must

assume. Even his own cabinet colleagues — somebody from the northern

areas, like the MLA for South Peace River (Hon. Mr. Phillips).... I

wondered whether they would be able to get along in cabinet. It's

important that they are able to function and get along and present a

united front and that sort of thing, is it not?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, please, vote 146.

MS. SANFORD: Mr. Chairman, all right, I will leave this.

was interested that the minister seems to have fitted in very well in

his new portfolio. He has quite easily adopted the philosophy of the

government. He has demonstrated that, really, he fits very easily and

very well into that mould. I can't understand why he stated so

emphatically that he did have other interests before, and that he was a

hard-working Liberal. Really, he has fitted in very well with all these

northern MLAs. There has been no friction. The ideas, principles and

the approach are all the same. I'd like to demonstrate that, Mr.

Chairman.

I think that this minister has shown that he is

keen on protecting the interests of the employers of the province —

that's a long-established Social Credit tradition. As he demonstrated

earlier, he is interested in paying out money to the employers of the

province so they can carry out their own obligation — which even they

recognize as their obligation. He's quite prepared to put taxpayers'

money into that.

He's quite prepared to go along with

cutbacks. I'm sure he's scrambling to find the $7 million that he's

going to need for his apprenticeship program in this fiscal year. I

think he's scrambling within his own ministry to get the necessary

funds that he is going to be announcing this afternoon. I think some,

of it's going to be left over from programs like the Youth Employment

Program. I anticipate that not all of that money will be spent, and I

think the minister will be attempting to latch onto that so he can help

subsidize industry to carry out what industry recognizes is its own

obligation. That's typical Social Credit philosophy and the minister

seems to be fitting in very well with that along with the MLAs for

Omineca (Mr. Kempf), North Peace River (Mr. Brummet), South Peace River

(Hon. Mr. Phillips), Dewdney (Mr. Mussallem) and those other areas. He

has also shown — and

[ Page 3501 ]

demonstrated this quite readily yesterday — that he is as good at

Ottawa-bashing as the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources

(Hon. Mr. McClelland) is, for instance. He lambasted the federal

minister, Lloyd Axworthy, yesterday because the two of them can't get

along and they can't get a program working. He's as good at

Ottawa-bashing as the Premier is. So, in view of his background, it's

been interesting to watch that sort of thing.

He has shown

as late as today.... And I'm not satisfied with the explanation he gave

with respect to the appointment of an industrial inquiry commissioner

as opposed to a mediator, when one is requested and the others are not

requested. I'm not satisfied with that answer. What we have, Mr.

Chairman, is a situation where the employers in the particular brewery

dispute which we were just referring to are going to lock out tomorrow.

When it is the employers who are going to lock out and the brewery

unions that are requesting an industrial inquiry officer, then the

minister says no. He is quite prepared to go along with the employers'

wishes in this case and neglect to accede to the request made by the

brewery workers. That's another example of how well he fits in to what

is the mould of Social Credit philosophy. He does it beautifully.

indicated to us yesterday that he is not prepared to bring in

regulations which would ensure that there are fair wages paid in

that.... Do you remember that? The minister is smiling. He remembers.

He knows that he is not prepared to make that particular act effective

and that there will not be any establishment of a fair wage to be paid

by government when they employ people to do construction on their

behalf. He knows that. That's why he's likely to have problems again at

places like Deer Lake — the Labour ministry offices there. He has

indicated over and over again that he still does not understand or is

not concerned enough about the problems that exist in terms of

industrial health and safety in this province, or the problems that all

of the MLAs face in trying to deal with the huge workload of

compensation cases that each one of us gets.

I suppose it's

just as well that the minister fits in and doesn't stick out like a

sore thumb in that group that is currently the government of British

Columbia.

Vote 146 approved.

Vote 147: ministerial administration and support services, $2,396,320 — approved.

Vote 148: apprenticeship training and employment opportunity programs, $37,087,884 — approved.

Vote 149: occupational environment, safety engineering and compensation advisory services, $8,204,840 — approved.

On vote 150: labour relations, collective bargaining and labour standards, $4,969,409.

MS. SANFORD:

I have a question with respect to vote 150, which includes also the

Essential Services Advisory Agency. The minister made some reference to

that group yesterday and I have a couple of questions that I would like

the minister to respond to with respect to the comments that he made

yesterday. He said that the advisory group is going to become involved

in industrial education. In other words, the whole question of

collective bargaining and everything, I assume, is what he was

referring to.

The other thing he mentioned was that this

particular advisory group was going to be involved in industrial health

and safety research as well, as I understand it. What I would like to

know, in view of the fact that on the vote for this particular

section.... The estimates for the Essential Services Advisory Agency

for 1979-80 are $297,000 and for 1980-81 are $197,000. It is going to

do all these new things and yet it has a $100,000 cut in its budget. I

wonder if the minister could tell me what on earth that advisory agency

has been doing up to this point. As I understand it, they have an

office in Vancouver and are doing very, very little with their time.

Could you please explain how this advisory agency is going to take over

all those obligations on $100,000 less?

HON. MR. HEINRICH:

I appreciate the reduction. Obviously we haven't required the agency to

the same degree as in former years. Perhaps that is a good sign. I

think perhaps what it really reflected is that in the area of what are

conveniently called essential services and with a pretty healthy

collective-bargaining climate many matters have been resolved at the

table. This is not etched in stone at all butI , like you, expressed

some concern as to whether or not we were getting maximum advantage out

of that particular agency. It had fulfilled a function, but the

premises are there and there are some learned people involved with it.

It came about rather innocently when we were talking about expanding

concern in industrial education that perhaps the facilities could be

used for a better purpose as an institute for people in the trades and

in management, who could have available to them a good library for

industrial relations, collective agreements, precedence, the bundle.

addition to that we also had a genuine concern about occupational

health and safety. We thought it might be a good place to use those

facilities and beef them up — maybe not within the next few months;

this may take 12 to 14 months to set up. We can have some place for

people who are concerned and have a particular interest in the area of

occupational health and safety and industrial hygiene and there could

be a fair amount of communication and probably a receptacle for a great

deal of data and perhaps some liaison with the WCB. I think that is

what is going to come to pass. I hope it really works, because if it

works the way I and my ministry want it to work, then I am going to be

looking for more money in there next year — probably considerably more.

I think it is a good vehicle and I hope we are going to call it the

Institute of Industrial Relations and Occupational Health and Safety.

There is going to be a great deal of input coming in from everybody in

it. It's got a start. It's seed money.

MS. SANFORD:

I am confused by this. It obviously means, then, that this Essential

Services Advisory Agency is going to be done away with. If it isn't,

then the Essential Services Advisory Agency is the wrong vehicle

entirely to be doing the kinds of thin s this minister is so optimistic

about accomplishing. Either you do away with this Essential Services

Advisory Agency and set up a special college or whatever else he wants

to call it.... Please do not have the Essential Services Advisory

Agency undertake all these other functions. I think it is a bad move on

the part of the minister.

[ Page 3502 ]

Vote 150 approved.

Vote 151: human rights programs, $913,023 — approved.

Vote 152: boards of review (Workers' Compensation Act), $10 — approved.

On vote 153: building occupancy charges, $2,143,000.

MS. SANFORD: I have a very brief question. What accounts for that $1 million increase in the building occupancy charges?

HON. MR. HEINRICH:

I'm advised that the reason for that was that the safety engineering

services division within the ministry was formerly within the Ministry

of Transportation and Highways. It involved the transfer of their

premises, and presumably their premises throughout the province, over

to the Ministry of Labour.

Vote 153 approved.

Vote 154: computer and consulting charges, $993,800 — approved.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ENVIRONMENT

On vote 75: minister's office, $152,422.

HON. MR. ROGERS:

This is my first opportunity to speak in estimates on the Ministry of

Environment and I must say it's a pleasure, because I don't think

there's a possibility of a ministry that has quite so many challenges

in such a variety of ways as the Ministry of Environment. I must say I

do enjoy this ministry; I find it absolutely fascinating. There's a

staff of about 1,600 people — probably the highest percentage of

professionals of any ministry in government, by virtue of the

engineers, biologists and other very technical people who work in the

ministry. By and large we're a service ministry to other ministries and

other areas of government, as well as the general public. The ministry

is broken down into five segments. Of those segments the first one we

have is an assessment planning branch, which does just about what it

says: project pre-assessment for environmental concerns and

environmental damage, anything from power dams to linear developments

such as pipelines or hydro rights-of-way. We have a terrestrial

division which deals with information on land.

At this time

my deputy has arrived. Previous ministers have always had to indicate

that they needed a simultaneous translator to get from Gaelic to

have no difficulty. I'm sure members of the House all know Mr. Marr.

The

terrestrial division of the assessment planning branch of the ministry

has under its authority the soils laboratory in Kelowna. They have been

involved in doing the Canada Land Inventory map series for the entire

province. They do all the land assessment information that's required

by the ministry and for other ministries as well. The aquatic

section

of the assessment planning branch deals with, as it says, aquatic

areas, such as lakes. The main project it's dealing with right now

involves the Squamish estuary. Again, they are a group of professionals

in the ministry that take a microscopic look at fairly large areas in

terms of their environmental problems. There's also an air development

section in assessment planning which deals with airshed management and

air quality. There are a number of airsheds in the province which have

particular environmental problems which they monitor on a daily basis.

They deal with meteorologists and climatologists and do temperature and

air mass studies throughout the province.

In the

environmental management division of the ministry, which primarily

deals with licensing, there's Fish and Wildlife, which probably has the

highest profile, other than Waste Management, of any part of the

ministry. We deal with hatcheries, trapping, trapper education and

hunters through the CORE program — the Conservation and Outdoor

Recreation Education Program. We stock in this province, through our

hatchery system, just over 500 lakes. There are about another 1,000

lakes which are accessible to anglers. Given more funds for the

hatchery program, we could stock them. I've said before in this House

that many anglers go out with their fly rods and fish boats to some

remote lake. They think they're going back to nature, and in all

probability the Kamloops trout or the rainbow they took out was put in

there by the ministry staff a few months or maybe as much as six months

earlier.

Recently at the B.C. Wildlife Federation convention

I was able to announce a conservation trust, which is $1.25 million in

its first year, to go to collection and saving of specific areas of

high environmental concern. Things that were pioneered by people like

Roderick Haig-Brown in the private sector are now being done by the

government sector. We also work with the National Second Century Fund

and General Hoffmyster, who is the federal government's representative

on the National Second Century Fund. As recently as a week ago Friday

the Silver Creek project at Hope was turned over to the ministry by the

National Second Century Fund. The second member for Vancouver South

(Mr. Hyndman) represented me at that particular turnover. He forgot to

take the dollar that he was supposed to take for the 99-year lease, but

I'm assured by the General that if the member would for-ward the dollar

we'll be able to get the lease finally secured.

There is a

marine resources branch in the ministry which from an economic

viewpoint is probably the most exciting prospect that I have to deal

with. As members will know, previous ministers in this portfolio have

had a lot to do with oyster enhancement, and in trying to increase the

oyster production. It is our aim to double it in the next two years and

increase it by a factor of ten within the next five years.

The

market for oysters from British Columbia is unclassified, because we

just aren't able to supply the demands we have now. Further advertising

at this point only encourages people to inquire about supply, and we

can't meet the demand we have. So we're going to a very intensive

program of oyster management.

The marine resources branch,

through their oyster seed development fund and through the technical

things they are able to add to the people in the industry, have been

instrumental in helping the industry go to the more modern methods of

oyster production — that is, string culture and tray culture, largely

for the half-shell trade. I was in Pendrell Sound last Sunday to see

the oyster seed operation, and they had 155,000 strings of oyster

shells ready to go in the water. They've gone in this week to pick up

the sprat fall. Pendrell

[ Page 3503 ]

Sound

and Houghton Channel can supply the entire world requirements for

oyster seed. The potential is there; we only need to find people with

the small amount of capital and the large amount of work required to go

into increased oyster production.

In addition to that, the

ministry is starting an oyster-shell development scheme in Baynes

Sound, which is the primary area where oyster development in the

province takes place.

In addition to that we are involved in

the seaweed program. There are essentially three different types of

seaweed. I do have the Latin names, but members of this House will

probably appreciate it if I just refer to the common names. The one

with the greatest potential is for the food market for the Japanese,

and that is through the kombu plant. At the Bamfield Marine Station,

the ministry's marine resources branch, in conjunction with the

University of Victoria, is doing experimental work in trying to culture

and grow cultured kombu on the west coast. The results are very

promising. I think that there is a good possibility for it. It would be

a cottage industry type of operation. It is an agricultural operation

rather than a fishing operation, because it involves caring for plants

and proper tending of fields.

Interjection.

HON. MR. ROGERS: Sorry, hon. member, I have to wait for your question a little later. I'm sure you'll give it to me.

There

are also a number of other different types of seaweed. We are currently

in a harvesting program up at Malcolm Island to determine the

regeneration capability of the various types of seaweed which we have.

There

has been interest expressed from other parts of the world about buying

our seaweed, but the concern I have, which is obviously shared by staff

in the ministry, is that if we allow wide-ranging harvesting of seaweed

without consideration to the other plant organisms that live in that

particular area, then we might literally cut down the trees....

can't replant it like we can a forest. So we're doing tests now to see

what the regeneration capability is. The results are very promising,

because as it turns out, in our initial tests anyway, the areas where

we've harvested get better production after we've harvested them than

the areas with a natural basis. The regeneration capability is fairly

substantial.

We also do research into geoducks, mussels,

clams and the other shellfish that are the responsibility of the marine

resources branch.

The waste management branch is, I guess,

the one I get questioned on in the House most often, and the one which

probably most members are most familiar with. We are involved in the

licensing of all municipal and industrial sewage and waste disposal

systems.

We have two interesting programs in the waste

management branch. One is salvage assembly and collection of materials,

called Project SAM, which collects derelict cars throughout the

province. It crushes them and ships them to Vancouver where they are

processed and recycled into flats, channel iron and reinforcing steel.

So on the weekend when you are pouring some concrete and working with a

piece of reinforcing steel, it probably is a three- or four-year-old

Ford or Buick that has been crushed and recycled and has found a final

home in a reinforcing rod.

We are also involved in the

recycling of waste paper. Part of the strange anomaly in this province,

with all our pulp and paper mills, is that we import between $3 million

and $4 million worth of waste paper every year to make up our shortfall

in recycling projects. To that end I'm pleased to say that government

offices have recently agreed to go onto a paper-saving program which

recycles high-quality waste paper, It's been working in my ministry for

some time, and we expect it to become province-wide over the next two

to three months, within the government service in any event.

The

waste management branch also deals with a lot of the very difficult

problems that members bring up from time to time on effluent discharge,

on the quality of effluent, the minimum standards which we have to set.

I have to give these people credit; they work under very strenuous

situations, because no one really particularly wants to deal with waste

management, although it's probably the area that I've paid most

attention to, especially as it pertains to the lower Fraser River with

our particular project that we had on the Fraser River task force,

which brings the point right back to the waste management branch.

terms of recycling, tomorrow in Victoria we start a blitz on our

campaign for oil-recycling depots in Victoria. The automotive industry

have now agreed that recycled oil is every bit as good as new oil, and

for those people who change their own oil and want to find a place to

deposit it, we're going to do it in Victoria. If it's successful there,

we'll expand it in other areas of the province.

The water

management division deals with the 1,600 dams that exist in this

province — more or less 1,600; we build a few every year and some come

down — but there is also a dam safety inspection program. There are a

substantial number of dams in this province that were built in the last

century which require inspection, as do modern dams. I must admit that

when I first came to the ministry I was aghast at the number that did

exist, but there are a number of professionals in the ministry who just

look after that particular area; they also look after the water rights

end of it.

We have a pesticides division in environmental

management which looks after both pesticides and herbicides. They

license applicators — that is, commercial applicators — and they also

instruct and license people who are permitted to sell pesticides. We,

of course, have a board of appeal for pesticides which people want to

appeal against. That's another area where, obviously. there is a large

amount of concern by people throughout the province. These people are

to be complimented. They go to farm supply businesses, to drugstores

and to a number of areas where pesticides are made available and

instruct the vendors to ask the right questions and to ensure that the

ultimate client at least reads the directions and takes every safety

precaution available. I believe, and the ministry believes, that if

properly applied and properly used, pesticides that are licensed by

Agriculture Canada are valuable both to the agricultural industry and

the forestry industry as well as for general household use.

There

is an environmental services branch in the ministry, and, as it says.

It deals with environmental services. We have an inventory engineering

division which deals with dikes and flood prevention and flood-plain

mapping. We are currently in a program of Fraser River flood control

and are trying to make sure that all of the dikes on the Fraser system,

which doesn't just include from Hope to the sea but the whole system,

are improved. Some members will recall the flooding in 1947. If you go

back in history the dikes in British Columbia were never done with

riprap and proper quality aggregate. Essentially they started off by

the local farmer

[ Page 3504 ]

putting

on surplus manure and some surplus topsoil to stop the water, and

that's the basis and the foundation for many of the dikes in the

province.

When we do test-holes we find that the weakest

point is sometimes the foundation of our diking system, and in

cooperation with the federal government we have a very extensive

program of trying to improve the dikes — I must admit it is becoming

very, very expensive to get the kind of protection that we would like

to have throughout the province. It's not something that's in the front

of our minds until we have some kind of a high-water problem and

everybody begins to worry about the quality of the dikes. We have a

dike inspector based in Surrey who travels throughout the Lower Fraser

Valley and further up in the province, and is very diligent. I'm often

approached by mayors or aldermen or city managers who say: "Your dike

inspector is being far too fussy." Generally speaking, by the time

we've had our little chat they agree that maybe it is really important

that even in July and August we worry about our diking system. In the

last two years there has been such a low fresh that we haven't had a

serious problem with dikes, but we're going to continue to work on it.

Also

in the inventory engineering we deal with that perennial weed that we

seem to have in this province called Eurasian water milfoil. This year

in the Okanagan we have what is essentially a cosmetic program of

harvesting the weeds on the swimming beaches in cooperation with the

Okanagan basin water board, but the eradication programs are only in

very limited areas. The one area we were considering on the Woods

Lake.... Due to late warming in the spring we had not entered on the

program this year that we were going to do.

We also have the

health engineering branch in inventory and engineering which licenses

public swimming pools. Occasionally someone wants to move the location

of a diving board and it comes across my desk. I must admit it's not a

particularly high-profile item and I wonder if my critic even knew that

we had that in there.

We also deal a lot with drainage and irrigation programs as they pertain to the lowlands in the province.

regards the surveys and mapping division, all members of the House were

circulated a catalogue by me some months ago which shows the products

we make there. They're very proud of their operation — it's just behind

the buildings here — and they tell me it's never been more than 20

minutes from the time they have a request from a member of the House

before they have the appropriate map or photograph on their desk. If

members have any spare time and are interested, it's a fascinating

operation, to go and see how they do their base mapping.

They

are in a program of aerial photography. One would hope that some day

the province will be totally photographed, but they have a backlog of

some eight years now on requests. It requires certain days; only

certain weather conditions are appropriate for aerial photography. It

requires fairly high altitude work. They have a very sophisticated

level of production, in both colour and black-and-white photographs.

The information is transferred to Forests and to other ministries that

request this service. We also do all the computerized base-mapping —

Forests, Lands, Parks and other ministries take over our base maps and

transfer them.

Also involved is the place-names committee,

where I have the opportunity of putting names on lakes, streams or

creeks that haven't been named. None have been named after me. In fact,

I think we have only had one name change since I have been involved

with the ministry.

In the surveys and mapping branch we have quite an active retail sales program,

so that through government agents and government offices around the province

people are able to go in and select a map or photograph. They are not always

in stock but they get them very quickly. It's a good program.

Out

at the University of British Columbia next to the B.C. Research centre

is the environmental lab, run by Charlie Lynch. That is the area where

we do test all the pollutants — air, water, pesticides and mystery

substances which come in and we have to analyze. It is a very

professional group of people that work there. They do water testing for

people who submit water samples. In fact, for those who don't know, for

a $5 fee they will do a complete analysis of anyone's domestic water

supply. It costs us considerably more than that to do it, but it is a

worthwhile program, because we want the people who have remote water

sources to be able to know exactly what is in their water systems. Once

again, if members are out at the university and want to see a really

fascinating area of this ministry, I would advise them to pop in and

see it; it is very worthwhile.

The Provincial Emergency

Progra