Manitoba Hansard — 25 May 1972 (Sitting 91, 29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-91

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, May 25, 1972 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY 2327 :MR, CHAill.MAN: Resolution 95 (a) . The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. HOWARD R, PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Selkirk): Mr.

Chairman, I certainly cannot proceed without commending my colleague the Attorney-G eneral for giving me such a warm welcome this evening, I can see that obviously I'm more popular with the Attorney-G eneral than I an with members of the Opposition,as presently only four members of the Opposition are in their seats looking forward with any degree of eagerness towards the comments that I have to make this evening, So I can only judge from that percentage of at tendance that there must be very little interest in the problems of Municipal Affairs, housing and automobile insurance in the Province of Manitoba.

As usual the Honourable Member for Rhineland is in his seat at the proper time, In posing my remarks the other day, Mr. Chair man - and I also notice the press is not here, which again I think indicates the great degree of keeness and concern about the Department of Municipal Affairs.

The three items which I want to deal with briefly tonight were the Winter Works Program, Housing and the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, The Winter Works Program this past year involved expenditures in the nature of $9- 1/4 million which was pumped into developing jobs for the unemployed, those in receipt of unemploy ment insurance and those on social assistance. The monies were injected into various areas of the province in order to promote social development for the improvement of Manitoba as a whole, I think at this point, Mr.

Speaker, that I should briefly outline the areas in which there was work done upon under the program. First there was the Frontier School Division- some $200 ,0 00 Winter Works; Indian bands- half million; schools - 600, 000; northern remote com munities - 700 , 000; municipalities - one and a quarter million dollars; local groups - 1. 3; hospitals - 2, 3; and pensioners' housing- 2. 4.

The Pensioner Home Repair Program was one of the most innovative and successful job programs created by this government and had the result of probably developing some of the most worthwhile social dividend that any form of Winter Works Program could accomplish, I have had occasion to see some of the results of this particular program: Old age pensioners who would not have had the opportunity to have had repairs done to their home, one form or another, were able to obtain those repairs, those materials as a result of this innovative pro gram developed by this government during the past winter.

I think that this program involving the pensioner of home repair in the Province of Manitoba probably has within itself the seeds of the germination that gave way to some of the present thinking on the part of the Federal Government that in fact they at their level should consider the development of programs in order to encourage such things as rehabilitation of homes in certain designated areas, We see the Federal Government is now considering this type of step, just as this year the Federal Government developed its own PEP Program subsequent to the PEP Program that was developed in the Province of Manitoba last winter.

I think we can be justly proud that Manitoba again has shown the lead in what I suggest is a very worthwhile socially beneficial program for the Province of Manitoba, One of the other areas of this program that I do think some comment should be made about is the fact that senior citizen groups, the Age and Opportunity, for instance, came to us and said "Look, we would like to volunteer our help and assistance.

Could we work with your Job Employment staff in order that we might as members of Age and Opportunity, as senior citizens ourselves, be involved in the process of communicating and discussing with other senior citizens in the community this type of program:' And the Age and Opportunity group did provide quite a sizable number of volunteers that did work with the employees of our depart ment, spent many hours and weeks answering telephones, interviewing old age pensioner appli cants, visiting them at their homes, explaining; they provided people with various language abilities in order to communicate, So I say tonight, Mr.

Chairman, that probably this is another example of the type of development that we can create by getting citizen groups actively involved in making government programs even better, voluntary assistance that was provided through our winter works group in order to make the Pensioner Home Repair Program a real success in the province and getting people behind the program itself. Some reference should be made about housing in my introductory remarks, The

2328 May 25, 1972 (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ••••• government is proceeding with its major object of working within the limits of the powers of the province to make it possible that an aim that I think all societies have is that every individual within society ought to have decent living conditions. Just as every individual should have a fair trial, should have decent food, and the other basic freedoms of society, every individual as a right, as a right1ought to have decent shelter. This has been one of the basic principles and aims of this government insofar as its housing program is concerned.

I do know that honourable members can chip away and criticize this and that, but the important thing is, Mr. Chairman, that if there is criticism forthcoming in respect to our housing program, it is because we are now doing something about housing. We are doing some thing and have been doing something since 1969 in order to attempt to catch up in the bringing about better living conditions for so many Manitobans. The housing program has had many phases to it. Public housing is one of the best known and most publicized parts of the total program, but it is not the only one.

During the forth coming year, there will be in the neighbourhood of 3, 500 units built in the Province of Manitoba and these units will be split almost evenly between the rural areas and urban areas of the Province of Manitoba. There has been large numbers of delegations and groups coming forward to the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation requesting both senior citizen housing and public housing, and last year one-third of the housing units were built in rural Manitoba. This year we anticipate that half of the housing units, senior and public housing, will be built in the rural parts of this province.

Another change has been to the extent that we have now developed a policy by which tenants themselves can become openly involved in the actual governing of public housing and senior citizens development. Last year this time housing authority groups were appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council as a result of recommendations generally from the municipal authority. Now the method of appointing the committees is clearly defined.

One-third will be municipal appointees; one-third will be provincial appointees and the remaining one-third will be those elected by the tenants themselves in order to sit on the board. And let me say that to this date, we have noted some real success, some improved management by having tenants themselves close to the scene, well aware of the problems, being in fact, engaged and involved in the governing of the public housing development. Remote housing has been a program which we are doubling this year insofar as the number of units are concerned.

Two years ago the number of remote units built in the Province of Manitoba were 50; last year 100; this year 200 units of remote housing. Co-operative housing. We are working at the present time with groups in Thompson. We are discussing co-operative housing with a group in St. Vital. There has been consultation back and forth with the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in order to assist in the develop ment of co-operative housing units in the Province of Manitoba.

I am not going to suggest that Manitoba is in the lead insofar as co-operative housing is concerned; it's not, it's behind developments in other parts of Canada and specifically Nova Scotia has seen the development of large scale co-operative housing developments. The Pensioner Home Repair Program that I mentioned earlier has been the type :>f pro gram developed in order to assist the continued home ownership by senior citizens, so this has been part of the overall housing program that we have been able to develop.

The total amount of monies that will be expended on housing this year will be in the neighbourhood of $52 million; 90 percent of the monies are supplied for Capital Expenditure by the Federal Government, 10 percent by the province and the losses, operating losses are shared evenly 50-50 between the Federal and the Provincial Government. We are looking forward to further discussions that are presently taking place with the Federal Government insofar as further improvement and refining of our present housing pro gram in Manitoba.

Now I think I would be very remiss this evening if I failed to add a comment or two about another part of our program that I know that honourable members opposite appre ciate very much and that is the activities of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. I would like to distribute these forms to all members.

The members will - this is a program that a year ago had fewer than 35-40 employees, a program which is now one of the largest insurance corporations in the Dominion of Canada - (Interjections)-- and let me say to honourable members, before they laugh too much that never before in the history, never before in the history of- I note, Mr. Chairman, a degree of

May 25, 1972 2329 (:MR. PAWLEY cont'd) •• , •• nervousness in the laughter from my colleagues across the way, This is probably the only example that honourable members can find of a corporation this size that has sprung into life as quickly as it has - has written in $40 million worth of premiums in the space of less than six months. And let me say, let me say, Mr.

Speaker, that the Honour able Member for Morris always humors me because that which he has on automobile insurance is what he exactly reads from the type of trash that he receives weekly from the Insurance Bureau of Canada, because the exact words that he just uttered were words that he copied from the recent fancy plush expensive kit that was mailed to members of this Legislature from the Insurance Bureau of Canada, Exact quote - that is the degree of the thinking of the Honourable Member for Morris, It should be no surprise to any member of this House that his thinking is as shallow as it is, --(Interjection) -- The Member for St, George even has made it more convenient - and the fancy kit that was sent out recently by the Insurance Bureau of Canada and which the Member for Morris loves to make reference to in his little remarks across the way, The verdict is now being given by motorists in the Province of Manitoba, Sure we went through a period of difficulty - November, December, January - but, Mr.

Speaker, beginning in March, the Drive-in Claims Centres came into operation; and because we knew that there would be deliberately designed holes and questionnaires developed by either the Insurance Bureau of Canada or the Conservative Party of the Province of Manitoba, we decided we would ask motorists who dealt with Autopac - dealt with Autopac as to their reactions to the service that they received from the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, What was their reaction? That's what is important; not the reaction of the Honourable Member from Morris, because you knew ahead of time what he is going to say.

Not the reaction of the Honourable Member for Roblin because he too you can foresee and forecast as to the type of remarks that he will utter. So we distributed to each claimant that came into the Drive-in Claims Centres --(Interject ion)-- MR , CHAIRMAN: I will recognize the Honourable Member for Roblin in due course, MR , PAWLEY: I want to say this, Mr.

Chairman, that it doesn't surprise me - the Honourable Member for Roblin again has indicated that his interests are more of a personal nature rather than insofar as the interests of the people of the Province of Manitoba is con cerned, Because what is his objection? I haven •t been paid for my insurance agency. Mr.

Chairman, the fact is that of the forms that were given to motorists who had been dealing with Autopac insofar as their claims were concerned, we have received in excess of 500, in excess of 500 returns since March 1st, since the Drive-in Claims Centre opened, And the questions are outlined here, and let me report to honourable members that the response to the various questions asked by the in excess of 500 that returned these forms has been over 95 percent favourable, Over 95 percent favourable by people that had to deal with Autopac, Not people from the sidelines with political motivations, But people dealing with Autopac itself, 95 per cent favourable.

And, Mr. Speaker, I noticed insofar as the remaining five percent that were not so favourable, some of the comments that were that were repeated by them sometimes were quite a political nature, such as putting in the words "Boo to NDP" which is the type of verbiage that you would expect from honourable members opposite. --(Interjection) -- The fact remains, Mr.

Chairman, that 91 percent of the comments, comments written in by motorists on forms that I have distributed to you were totally favourable, and the remaining nine percent raised legal questions in the main; a few raised ideological questions, and some referred to delays, but a very very small minority of those that were forwarding in their forms, But let me say that running throughout the comments that were forwarded in by motorists dealing with Autopac two strains of comments came forth. One is, I'm surprised because of what I had read in the newspapers that the service was so excellent.

This was repeated over and over again because some way or other those dealing with Autopac had been lead to believe, led to believe that they were going to receive unfavourable service because of a brainwashing attempt that was exercised --(Interjection)-- I again apologize to the Honourable Member for Roblin about his business over there, He keeps raising his business again. And I'm sure he'll have ample opportunity to rise in his place in this House, Mr.

Chairman, and speak for 40 minutes if he wants about his business out in Inglis, Manitoba, The other area that seems to come out quite frequently in the comment forms is people making reference to the type of service they had received from Autopac as compared to the type of service they had received previously under private insurance, And let me say that there are numerous favourable comments and comparisons between the service received now in the Drive-in Claims Centres and the services received prior to Autopac, And comment after comment make reference to this.

2330 May 25, 1972 (MR. PAWLEY cont'

d) Now, I think these Comment Forms mean something because generally people that com plain, or fill out Comment Forms are those that want to complain, those that want to criticize, and let me say it's very very pleasing to find that the people who are responding to Autopac, to Autopac questionnaires, are people who are complimenting the service and the work being done by Autopac. And I would like to just say this that the management of Autopac, the personnel of Autopac have worked tremendously long hours, have contributed great effort to making Autopac a success in the Province.

We are very fortunate to have some of the very able people that are working with the management of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. I would mention for instance the service of Mr. J. 0. Dutton, who has performed excellently for the Corporatior And I want to say to honourable members opposite that they have no fear, no fear but that the commitments, the pledges, and the statements made as to the future success of Autopac is going to be well grounded and well proved. So with those few comments, Mr. Chairman, which were not of a contentious nature at all, I would close my introductory remarks. MR.

CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. The Minister mentioned when he got up that there couldn't be too much interest in his Estimates but he will notice the troops have come in now to hear at least the last part of his Estimates, or discussion on public housing and Autopac.

I really want to get down· into these Estimates and ask some questions on the different items but certainly there has to be some comment on the Minister's statement regarding his Estimates and certainly he must be very well aware that he's the Minister in charge of Autopac and in the page of his Estimates here it doesn't say anything, so he can naturally expect on the Minister's salary some comments about Autopac.

The Minister gets up and he speaks about people, and he talks about the soul basically but he forgets that the soul really has to do something for itself from time to time and government cannot be going along holding people •s hands continually the way the Minister has described in the last few minutes of his presentation. Mr.

Chairman, the other day the Member from Thompson got up and he was very critical of the Minister of Health and Social Welfare about the tremendous spending tha:t went on in that department and the- oh yeah, they are talking together now but the Member from Thompson happens to sit beside the other Minister in this Chamber who has got the responsibility of pour ing more people's money down the drain than anybody I've ever seen. So I don't know how he puts up sitting between the two of you, or near the two of you, but that is the case.

I said before that Autopac is costing a tremendous amount of money spread out through the government. I even said that when I took my car to a claim's centre that I got very good service, but I also said that there _are things happening in Autopac where you're pouring money down the drain. The Minister in his comments tonight very basically said that it's working fine now because we have worked so hard and got it going so well, and the only reason it has been is because of the amount of money this government has had to put in Autopac. Autopac is not pay ing its own way.

This pamphlet that we see here before us is maybe one of a hundred pieces of literature or advertising that's been presented by Autopac and certainly, I don't remember any, any agent or any company doing the advertising that they have done, and the amount of money that they have spent on the basis that we have to inform the people.

One thing I can remember going to my insurance agent and he's writing up my insurance and he gave me my insurance, he gave me my little slip that said I had insurance, and I never heard from him again until I went down and bought more insurance, had an accident, or we wanted service from him, or I should say I heard from him again on a call to say that I was satisfied.

Now we go down to the agents and we get a temporary slip and then the government has to process another slip, and we go through two complete procedures which is very costly, and as a matter of fact as we said the other day, shows up, shows up very definitely in the Motor Vehicle Branch Estimates because you've got an increase in the Motor Vehicle Branch Estimates of 1. 6, well $1, 676, 700 in that department, which is really basically has to be charged to Autopac, and you say that Autopac is carrying itself and running efficiently. Secondly, it's not running efficiently.

It's all very well to say people are happy but when I look at the pile of broken down cars on the lot that they place them up on the top of Valour Road, and by the way I wish they wouldn't place wrecked cars behind the Autopac Building out

May 25, 1972 2331 (l'.ffi. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) ••••• in St. James -w e never used to allow it before, and it would be a nice thing if they would cart them away and get that lousy looking bunch of junk out of our district because they're obviously piling up, and this is an indication that when somebody comes in with an older car with $500 worth of damage, there is more buying going on than fixing, and these people walk out and just buy another car with the money.

Now that's obvious from the amount of wrecks you have, and sure you're running, you're running very smoothly in Autopac, you 're rutming smoothly because you 're pouring money down the drain. Now, there is no ques tion- the Minister, the Minister absolutely says, you know he said to me the other day, after I spoke on the Department of Highways and Autopac came in and the Motor Vehicle Branch, and after I had said that there had been money being poured down the drain to keep Autopac going, the Minister asked me a question. And his question was: do you not believe that CFI was pour ing money down the drain?

That indicates to me that he thinks Autopac is pouring money down the drain also. So therefore the Minister is saying, we are spending. That's my impression of his question or his statement. Now, it's not very- oh, he criticized the Member for Morris about totalitarianism -- you got me confused -- (Interjection)-- I am going to slow down, Mr. Chairman, because as you know I can become fairly excited in things like this. So, Mr.

Speaker, really when somebody gets up and says we are the largest insurance corporation in Canada, and you don't allow anybody else to sell insurance, you know I've never agreed with you guys on the other side but make me the agent without competition for some of the products, will you? You know this is just, this is just a plain ridiculous statement. We are the biggest in Canada. The only person you've outdone is the Saskatchewan Insurance Corpor ation, and you've got more cars than they have. So that's why you're the biggest insurance corporation. Mr.

Chairman, let's just say again that the Minister is walking around in a cloud, he's saying, it's going to work all right, it will work all right if his department keeps going and he as long as the members on the other side in caucus and in Treasury Bench and Cabinet want to keep pouring money in there, it'll work, no question about it, but I'll tell you, let's find the hidden cost, and let's start selling Autopac in Manitoba at the real price it should be sold at, Quite frankly, I really think that agents and people that we had giving service before we were the best thing, and if you think that you are right, I suggest that you walk around in Wolseley you know and you will find that people aren't happy with Autopac.

In fact it's a very bad word in that colli!tituency. You will find that they don't like the idea of no competition. Manitobans are free enterprisers and they don •t like this type of attitude of no competition. And the Member for Thompson may have heard me before, and the Minister of Highways is not there now, and again I say to him he's right now sitting between the two men who blow more money in this province than anybody. Now, let's have little comment about the housing program.

I don't think there's anybody in this side of the House really that mad about public housing, but what really has to happen is I think we're getting to the point on public housing where you're almost going to need a Royal commission or an investigation. You know,

Section 26 (2) of the Manitoba Housing Corporation Act, has a big list of things that must be approved, items that must be approved by the Board before you go ahead. And I would be very very much - well I'm very doubtful if all of those things were really approved by the Board before probably $54 million or $55 million were spent last year, because I have the feeling that the Minister's Department was just going ahead and not checking. And I don't have it in front of me.

It's here if I- the first word- it must be needed; you must deal with the zoning in different areas; you must deal with the zoning in the areas in the country; you must have dealt with the zoning which was previously Metro Winnipeg, and quite frankly all of these things, I don't think were really done and I would really have the impression -- (Interjection)-- I would really have the impression, Mr. Chairman, that there might have been some retroactive passing of legislation to get these things done.

Well I can remember the day I was sitting at Metro representing another group and the man from the Manitoba Housing Corporation came down and he was having trouble getting the zoning through in Charleswood because they hadn •t gone through the proper procedures and it was thrown out by the Board of Adjustment, and then it had to go through Municipal Board, All of these things were not completely considered. Now let's just take a look at the Manitoba Housing Corporation, and on Page 1560 we have the Member from St. Matthews speaking and he says, the object of public housing is to hold down

2332 May 25, 1972 (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) ••••. rents, The object of public housing, later on in the next paragraph down here, will be to stabilize housing prices. It also will stabilize assessments. So it's pretty obvious what the Manitoba Housing Corporation is doing, not so much them, but by direction from this government, And it's fairly obvious what is happening, and I'm sure that many of you may have read this report, I've read this report, it's Public Housing, it was pre sented to the government, an opinion, Surprising who's on this report, Mr. Henry Dyck, Mr. George Janzen, Mr. Joe Popeski, Mr.

Jake Schultz --(Interjection)-- who's he? Oh my good ness! And there's Mr. Victor Willms who wrote this report on public housing, and it's very interesting in several areas, You know, it says private industry is overbuilding at the present time, It says that they were irresponsible by doing so, but they said the public housing is the place that the Manitoba Government is going along with, is the one that will break the camel's back, The answers to some of these questions we will be looking for on

Section 102 of your Estimates, Mr. Minister, and you know, he gives tremendous examples of basically what is happening, The one thing that this report says is that if you continue on the way that you are going that you will have a subsidy of rents, plus maintenance of these buildings, to a cost that the people of Manitoba just won't be able to afford, So, so --(Interjection)-- Jake Schultz? I think he's related to a guy -- you know I hesitated to mention the name because I was sure the Member from Inkster would make a speech two months from now about it you see. Yeah, Well, you see, so he's • , • MR .

CHAIRMAN: Order, please, MR . F. JOHNSTON: So he recognized -- you have to recognize the fact that this report was written by somebody , •• MR . CHAffiMAN: Order, please. The Chair is having difficulty ••• MR . F. JOHNSTON: • , , who is the Premier's ••• MR . CHAffiMAN: Order. The Chair is having difficulty in hearing the honourable mem ber. I can't hear 56 members all at one time, One at a time. MR . F.

JOHNSTON: Thank you, The report has to be recognized, and I think certainly it should be recognized by that government because Jake Schultz, as I understand it, is the father-in-law of the Premier, and I would really be surprised if he wouldn't be very honest with the men on that side of the House, And the honesty of this report is exceptional, It says, you're overbuilding, It also says that some of the methods that the government uses to get people in the public housing are not quite right, You are harming; you are going to end up having slum areas where people are going to be moving out of houses and leaving them to go in this for subsidy.

It also says that a man should, if he was making $5, 000 a year, he should cut his salary because he would gain in rent more than he'd lose in the salary, A MEMBER: Jake said that? MR . F. JOHNSTON: Jake said that. He absolutely says it, it's all here in the report which I'm willing to table but I'm sure they have them, Now let's not kid ourselves about the public housing, You're overbuilding and you're basically using a socialist philosophy to try and control rents, control assessment --(Inter jection)-- Right!

You know, let's -- you know it's so amazing, you know my colleague from Lakeview is not here -- Lakeside -- who said you know, how do you talk to a bunch of &uys when about doing something wrong when they say this is what we want to do, And you really are try ing to control the living accommodation of everybody in this province, You're trying to control the developers, etc. Another thing about the public housing, Sure we want to have public housing and everybody to have a roof but shouldn 1t we start abiding by the zoning?

Shouldn't we stop you know out in East Kildonan, I believe, I believe that this is right, if you go in and you put in a bunch of public housing you don't have to go before the council too much and give them the reasons, you don't have to build for so much per square foot, your concern about shools is not there, no, Here we are, We've got a great big bunch of money from the Federal Government at 7-1/2 percent over a 50 year basis and you know 50 years you're going to be paying for this subsidy, You know most of the towns where you've put them will be gone before the 50 years is up, and I can assure you that when we get a different government in this province people will be living in much better housing than the public housing is providing, So, Mr.

Chairman, I know that the Minister is going to give me that old story about you wouldn't believe how some people were living, etc., and I go along with that, I go along with that, I've had several comments from the Member from Crescentwood but when you've done

May 25, 1972 2333 (MR. F, JOHNSTON cont'd) •• ••• nothing you talk a lot, so I can expect it from him, But really, really the public housing that we're doing, you're over building; you have empty public housing; you can get in a car and go to the public housings that have been built in this province and you can find empty houses; you can find that the devious means that is mentioned in this report to get people in them are taking them out of apartments, and you are just trying in your socialistic way to control the living accommodation of the people of Manitoba. They won •t accept it for much longer, I assure you. Mr. Chairman,

Section 102 of The Public Housing really - when we get to that I'm sure there'll be many questions asked. Let's just take a look at the rest of the, rest of the Esti mates and there's one place that I don't want to be specific, but in Planning what has the Minis ter's Department really done for the regional planning of the Brandon area or the West-Man area?

All that happened last year was a bill to make Brandon bigger, and all you did is move the problem outside the boundaries, and the Minister well knows, and I believe it was brought to his attention, that in the Town of Cornwallis they had a request for a --(Inter jection)- Municipality of Cornwallis they had a request for a trailer park where somebody was going to put mobile homes, invest $350,000 to put the park in- mobile homes are becoming something that is accepted; it's another way of living in a house you can afford - and the objection from the City of Brandon to Cornwallis was such that it had to be looked at by the Municipal Board and the Municipal Board's decision is final.

But what happened?

We lost a $350, 000 investment in Cornwallis; Brandon loses the -- and they opposed it because there is no regional planning, they want to go to urban - and they are going to oppose everything, it wouldn't matter whether you put it on the south, west, or east, they are going to oppose it because they feel it should be closer to Brandon, and until you have a regional setup in Brandon, which is what the Dulmage Report asked for, I assure you you're going to have a mess out there, and the Minister's department hasn't really done anything to cure the situation in the Brandon area or West-Man part of Manitoba.

Now I tell you that that is a growing area, as everybody knows, but nothing's being looked at. Possibly the Minister is spending more time on Autopac and public housing but actually this situation is just a little bit disgusting. The City of Brandon says the people are using our facilities, it should be in Brandon, we should receive the taxes. And this is going to happen out there as long as you don •t get those people together and have a regional developing plan. That, Sir, is just disgusting that we would lose that kind of development which is bene ficial to the western part of our province.

The Municipal Board is the final word.

There's no way back after they've made a decision and I think that possibly the Municipal Board should have more people on the hearings from the regional areas learning the problems, and I think you should sit down and not necessarily have the Municipal Board for this area being in complete control of an area such as Brandon, They are going to be growing, and you're going to have to have a regional district but last year I understand, because the Minister of Industry and Commerce had promised during election to make Brandon bigger, you made it bigger; all you did is make the problem bigger and you've done nothing about it.

That was the one we went till 4:00 o'clock in the morning on, Mr. Chairman. The local government districts, we did travel through them. I would sincerely hope that the -- and all the way through them the government was asking, do you feel you have represen tation? They were looking to see if they had representation and the message that we got for every place we went is, leave US-alone, we are happy. Our drainage is bad. We would like you to do something about that. We need a little bit more money in our coffers and it seems that this is what the government is working to.

So we have to be complimenting the government on that particular aspect, So, Mr. Chairman, I quite frankly can't be too critical of the Minister and his general Estimates that we have here. The department is operating. I believe the department must be operating efficiently with some help of some very good civil servants, because the Minister is obviously spending most of his time in Autopac and public housing. And frankly this can't carry on. It can't carry on because we have problems in the rural areas of Manitoba regarding regional districts, etc.

And it has to be solved and it should be solved very very soon, If you don't, you'll have municipalities, etc., asking the provincial planner to make them a plan and they'll come before the board and say we would like to opt out of planning and come in with our plan, so that we won't be continually, continually having objection from different areas when we want to do something - and you can't blame the people that objected because there's no regional setup for the area.

2334 May 25, 1972 (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'

d) So maybe we'll have another debate, Mr. Chairman, till 4:00 o'clock in the morning some day, but that mess, that mess that was created out there, or that was out there and just made bigger, is there and has to be taken care of. Mr. Chairman, I know that there are other people who want to speak on the Minister's salary regarding Autopac and the Minister -I have to say to him quite frankly that he is just really kidding the troops when he says it's going to operate smoothly. Smoothly maybe, but at an awful expense to the people of Manitoba.

Your public housing, smoothly maybe, but over building to the point of harming the province and the only reason you could have for overbuilding --I can't think of any other reason, nobody's crazy enough to overbuild unless you're trying to control the province and the living accommodation of the province, and I repeat, the Member from St. Matthews ; who I understand works with the Minister, has said, we want to hold down rent, stabilize housing prices, and we'll also stabilize assessment. Is that the reason for the public housing?

If it is, you 're selling this province down the drain, and it better stop because the cost of the rents that you are going to subsidize, and the cost of the maintenance of the houses you are building are going to be a fantastic figure and I would like to say that I hope sincerely that the Minister -I should ask him, Sir, Mr. Chairman, has he read the report? And if he hasn't, it's here to be tabled for anybody to read. You will find that it's factual; it's common sense, and it can't be argued with.

You're going to cost the people of Manitoba a tremendous amount of money if you don't start having a better situation on public housing. You could also look at the Teal reports -- I believe it •s the Tealer reports of the real estate people in Manitoba where they show properties changing hands, etc., and you will find in there that the Manitoba Housing and Development Corporation has purchased property after it changed hands a couple of times, and the price has gone up to the point where you really shouldn't have bought it.

The amount of money you've paid for the property is absolutely ridicu lous, and the arguments that - you haven't really got an argument when you tell me that public housing should be away out in the St. Norbert area. These are the people that supposedly don't have cars, etc., and you put the housing away out there. So this is building for the sake of building. We all want to see people with a roof. I assure you of that on this side of the House we do, and we'll accomplish it better than this government will.

But you are overbuilding for one reason only and that's to control the accommodation of the people of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, there is not too much time left tonight but I think I should make some comments anyway in connection with the --(Interjection)-- Maybe I should because when the Minister spoke on a previous occasion, not tonight, he started off with the matter of the school tax and education tax rebates, and so on, and he came up with the school tax credit plan which -- the legislation of which is before the House - mentioning that this would be 28 million. Well I certainly don't accept that figure, Mr.

Chairman, because I know from the B. c. experience, British Columbia with $185.00 rebate is spending a total of 72. 5 million and if you calculate on that basis they having a 2. 2. million population, with us having a million, and then our figure of 145 compared to theirs of -- ours of 140 to theirs of 185, it comes to $25 million. But then you are going to reduce that figure by the one percent of income that you're going to lower the $140.00 by, so it's going to be much much less than the 28 million. It won •t even be 20 million in my opinion. I think it will be closer probably to 15.

Certainly from the experience that they have, and if you calculate it on that basis, you will never get the $28 million that is being forecast at the present time. So therefore I certainly dispute that point that we are actually lowering the taxes in Manitoba by $28 million. I certainly take issue with that. But I think I should touch on some of the other points tonight because I have only got a few minutes left.

The Minister mentioned senior citizens' home repair, and I happened to see a telecast on TV, oh probably a couple of months ago for I think a half hour telecast on that very subject, and later on in hearing people speak on that, they thought that some of the people that had been shown there really had been put up, so that not all the facts really came out in the telecast and that there was some cover-up work.

But what I am interested in is - in the report that we have before us, too, from the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation the Minister mentions that we will be spending roughly $52 million in the current year, 90 percent of which is being put up by the Federal Government and 10 percent by the province. And then the losses are going to be prorated 50/50.

May 25, 1972 2335 (MR. FROESE cont'd) • I would like to know from the Minister just what is this subsidy costing us in Manitoba? We are building houses; we have a building program each year, but what are our actual costs to date in the way of subsidy?

I know the statement that is in here certainly tells very little and then it's a year old, And therefore I would like to have some more information from the Minister on this because I don •t agree with the -- I don't agree with this type of a housing program, I feel that rather than paying a subsidy eternally or in perpe tuity as the program now is set up, I feel that we should give them a grant once and for all and let them acquire a home, Let the people acquire their own home rather than just having them rent because as has been pointed out, I think a lot of these units will turn out to be real slums after a while and that when you haven't got an owner of a property that things are not looked after as they are if you do have an owner.

The Minister mentioned that they are now appointing local committees. I would like to get a list of these local committees that have been appointed to date to see who are the people that are serving on these committees and whether in. my assessment they are the people that should be appointed to such boards, So --(Interjection)-- Well I would still like to see who the government is appointing to these boards, --(Interjection)-- The Member for Thompson says not Jake Schultz.

Well there may be more than one Jake Schultz in Manitoba, so that I don't know just of which one we're speaking when --(Interjection)-- the Member for Sturgeon Creek mentions the name of Jake Schultz, --(Interjection)-- The Minister mentions that 3, 500 units will be constructed during the course of the coming year and that this is going to be divided equally between rural and urban, I want to congratulate him on that because I think the rural people are as entitled to any subsidies just as the urban people are, and so that we are changing the ratio from the year before where apparently two-t hirds of them were constructed in the urban areas, Briefly then, Mr.

Chairman, I would also like to make a few comments iri connection with auto insurance, I feel that by this time we should have had a progress report of --(Inter jection)-- No, the Minister hasn't really given us a progress report and accounting, I would like to know because --(Interjection)-- Yeah, I would like to know from the Minister just how much monies have you received because the reserve funds was the principal thing that the Member for Inkster was interested in, It wasn't auto insurance, it was the investment funds that the insurance corporation would get through the premiums that the people have to pay.

And I'm interested, is the government going to borrow every cent of this, of these insurance funds that will be invested like the Canada Pension Plan is ? We are borrowing every cent under the Canada Pension Plan - and I am wondering what is happening to the funds that are being re ceived from premiums under the Autopac?

Certainly the monies aren't paid out as fast as they're coming in because-- so that probably-- this before they're paid out a term, a period of two years most likely will have gone by and in this way we are building up reserves and I certainly don't mind seeing reserves, the government having reserves, sure, But I would also like to know just what is being done with the reserves and how they're invested and for what purpose, The Insurance Corporation is a Crown corporation and as such this is a monopoly. It was started as such from the very beginning.

No competition, so that in a matter of a short time I would think that smugness will set in. I think it's too early for that to happen- and especially with the Minister I think being the Chairman of the Board I don't think this will happen just overnight, I have that much confidence in the Minister already. But at the same time I think we have to watch the performance- and just how are you going to measure performance of our Public Auto Insurance Corporation? Are we going to measure it with Saskatchewan - be cause it seems to me that's the only one that we can compare it with so far.

So ••• A MEMBER: You've got another 20 seconds, Jake, pour it on. MR , FROESE: Surely enough we know that Crown corporations are tax exempt so that we should be doing much better than what the private companies have been doing heretofore, who had to pay income tax on all profits that they made and therefore the public insurance corporation no doubt should perform much better • , • MR, CHAffiMAN: Order, please. The time being 9:00 o'clock, it is now the time for Private Members 1 Hour. Committee rise and report, Call in the Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, your Committee of Supply has directed me to report progress and asks leave to sit again,

2336 May 25, 1972 IN SESSION 1\ffi. SPEAKER: Order, please, The Honourable Member for Logan, 1\ffi, JENKINS: Mr, Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital, that the report of the Committee be received, 1\ffi, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, •••• , continued on next page.

May 25, 1972 2337 PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SPEAKER: The first item of Private Members' Hour on Thursday is Public Bills. PUBLIC BILLS MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. Bill. No. 19. MR. JAMES WALDING (St. Vital): Could we have this matter stand, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. The Honourable Member for Riel. Stand? (Agreed) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland. The Honourable Member for Radisson.

Stand? (Agreed) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland. The Honourable Member for Swan River. Stand? (Agreed) On the proposed motion of the Honour able Member for Souris-Killarney -- oh, the Honourable Member for Virden I should say. The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. Bill No. 28. MR. EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I didn't think that this bill would come up so quickly. --(Interjection)-- I haven't got any notes. What's there to say about horse racing? What's there to say? Mr.

Speaker, my compliments to the Honourable Member for Virden for proposing this amendment to The Lord's Day Act. I have been one of those that over the years have been against change but I realize that I've been ou1numbered over the years so I'm going to join the crowd this time. I'm going to join the crowd. I might as well. If you can't beat them you might as well join them so I'm going to be.joining. --(Interjection)-- No way. Mr. Speaker, I remember so well when we discussed The Lord's Day Act amendment, Sunday sports, about eight or nine years ago.

At that time I was one of those who thought that the world would come to an end if we had baseball games on Sunday, hockey games, football games - and the world still carried on I guess, even though I thought it wouldn't. So I guess what's wrong with having horse racing Sunday? It's far better to have horse racing on Sundays than to go out shooting deer - as far as I'm concerned and I'm not going to go that far. I'm not going to bend all the way, but I am willing to gamble on voting for this amendment to The Lord's Day Act, Bill 28. What does horse racing mean to Manitoba? What does it mean to my constituents?

Right at the present time there's over 40 horses training in Wawanesa, harness racing, and one of the finer tracks southwestern Manitoba. This means it's quite an industry for our town. Even though the Minister of Municipal Affairs tried to destroy our town we've still got horses in Wawanesa. And I'll defy the Honourable Minister to nationalize horses. He'll never go that far because they're liable to kick him, because I'll tell you there's a lot of horse sense In Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I think horse racing to many people in my area has been a business, raising colts.

The honourable member mentioned the potential of this industry and I think about a week ago I saw in the paper a sale that took place of thoroughbred horses, the colts out at the Assiniboia Race Track which many of them going for large amounts of money. And if we're going to do something for this industry I think we have to go all the way. And what I mean by going all the way is we got to try to appeal to the tourists who come from Minnesota, North Dakota and other parts of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Ontario.

In the State of North Dakota, in the State of Minnesota there's no parimutuel betting and those people are coming to Manitoba in large numbers just so they can go out to Assiniboia Downs and bet their odd dollar out there. You know and nobody ever made money at a horse race; nobody ever made money at a pari mutuel. But it's an attraction, it's a hobby that many people including the Member for Brandon West who is not here this evening is becomi ilg very attracted to. Mr.

Speaker, I suppose with the protection in this Bill it's there for the average person in the community, that many people will still say that their communities shouldn't have this privilege of going for Sunday horse racing. But I think there's enough protection in the bill that the Honourable Member for Virden has brought in; protection is there for each munici pality and I think if a municipality wants Sunday horse racing they should go through the natural channels that apply in this bill.

Now I realize that the Canadian Racing Commission has to approve of a municipality going for Sunday racing and for that reason there's another protection there too.

2338 May 25, 1972 (MR. McKELLAR cont'

d) So, Mr. Speaker, I want to close by congratulating the Honourable Member for Virden, one of my colleagues, for endorsing this particular bill and I hope that it meets with the approval of all members in this Chamber. MR. SPEAKER put the question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden shall be closing debate. The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Wellington, that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Radisson. The Honourable Member for Emerson. Bill No. 43. MR. GABRIEL GffiARD (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to have the matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) Publi(;) Bill No. 44. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie) presented Bill No. 44,

an Act to amend The Portage la Prairie Charter, for second reading. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, as most members know in this House there are certain cities in the Province of Manitoba who in the early days of government were granted their own char ters, and I name among them St. Boniface, Brandon, Winnipeg and Portage la Prairie.

Now from time to time there are amendments required in the various charters to keep the charters in line with the Municipal Act which is the senior act which governs the actions of the municipalities in this regard. So Bill 44 is simply a housekeeping matter whereby the election of aldermen and the mayor; the changes are made in the Portage la Prairie Charter so that they conform with The Municipal Act with respect to the election of aldermen and the mayor of the City of Portage la Prairie.

So that there is no conflict between the two Acts because we know that The Municipal Act supersedes all other charters and that is the reason for Bill 44. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 26. The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SPEAKER: Stand? (Agreed) Private Members' Resolutions. PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTIONS MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Souris Killarney, Resolution No. 24. MR. McKELLAR: Okay. I'm losing my voice. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake THAT

WHEREAS the RCMP have been a successful organization for the protection of the citizens of Canada; and

WHEREAS the RCMP have been recognized throughout the world as an outstandil'g police force, and

WHEREAS the RCMP have been knownby that name for more than 50 years, THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that we recommend to the Government of Canada that no change be made in the name or uniform and that the word RCMP remain on all cars and other equipment of transportation used by that force. Mr. Speaker, the word "recommended" should be "recommend". The "ed" should be strick en off. I don't know. That's an error I just noticed there now. With that amendment. The word "recommended" should be "recommend". MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarne y. MR . McKELLAR: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Rhineland mentions on his it must be a typing error -- on his resolution . • • MR. SPEAKER: In the Resolved

section the word is "recommend" instead of in the past tense. In my .. . MR. McKELLAR: Well, this is right. MR. SPEAKER: It's correct in my section. The Honourable Member for Souris Killarney.

May 25 , 1972 2339 MR. McKE LLAR: Mr. Speaker, when I presented this resolution to the Clerk of the Asse mbly, at that time there was much talk across Canada that the name RCMP was going to be removed from the cars of that particular police force; and the name "Royal" was talked about as being removed also. Since then there's been a turn of events. The Prime Minister of Canada told the people of Canada that no change will take place. But I would want to thank one particular person for bringing this to the attention of the public.

There is a useful purpose -- there is a useful purpose in the opposition of government s, and there is a useful purpose for opposition members of bringing things to the attention of the public when the government of the day - no matter what government whether provincial or federal seem - to be doing the wrong thing, seem to be doing the wrong thing to the public. At that particular time it was brought to the attention of the public by the Right Honourable John Diefe nbaker that no change should be made in the wording of the RCMP; that their name should remain on the car, on the uniform.

And after reading his statement in the paper , in Hansard, I thought .it was only right that we, the Le gis lature of Manitoba, should go on record as supporting the name RCMP both on the uniform and on the car. I noticed in the Town of Souris one RCMP car was driving around with the name RCMP removed and the name "Police" written under on the door of the car. It's been brought to my attention and I noticed it. I noticed others in the province too but I would imagine those cars will be changed in the very near future. Mr.

Speaker, this is an instance I think - we're seeing the name Royal removed from many things such as the Post Office, and other governmen t departments. And I think that over the years, that we have been well served in many govern ment departments by having the name Royal included in that particular name. And I think it would be a sad thing for the citizens of Canada if we are going to change from our system of government to the system of government that's employed such in the United States.

And for that very reason I would ask all members of the Legislature to go on record endorsing this particular resolution; and endorsing I think not only for the citizens of Manitoba for all citizens in the Dominion of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Geor ge. MR. WILLIAM URUSKI (St. George): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR.

URUSKI: It seems that every time the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney proposes a resolution I get up and I'm either in opposition to it , or I like - in this instance for a change I happen to be in favour with the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney and I am rising in my place to support the resolution of the honourable member. Mr.

Speaker, the resolution as it points out in the first "Whereas" that the RCMP have been a successful organiza tion, I would - as a past member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police I served five years in the force - I don't want the honourable member to go in the past and say, "have been"; I would have liked him to be in the affirmative and really put the issue forward and say that they have been and are and they will be a successful organization for the protection of citizens of Canada .

Now also he goes on in this resolution and he states that the RCMP have been recognized throughout the world as an outstanding police force; and I might say that in my experience as a constable in the RCMP I spent four years in the Preventive Service Branch of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police on the C:mada-U. S. Border at Windsor , Onta rio.

The duties that the Preventive Ser vice Squad of the Windsor Detachment were to apprehend smu gglers that were brin ging over goods that wruld be illegally imported from the United States; counterfeit money as the honourable member says and of course, the legal importation of drugs into Canada. Now I must say that the U. S. agencies that were stationed in Detroit; the Police Departments of Detroit - the U. S. Bor der Patrol , the U. S. Narcotic Bureau and the Customs Bureau - you see if you look at the U.

S. system of law enforcement agencies and you look at the duplication and the multiplicity of agencies and overlapping activities that one agency covers over another , you can really see why the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Canada being a federal agency and being the major police force in Canada as well as contracting to many of the provinces other than Ontario and Que bec to do the provincial statutes as well; being one organization having one central agency for reporting and crime detection and the lab work and all the crime indexes , the information coming into a central area would provide a much more efficient service , and they are then able to provide all their detachments and all the policemen in our country with the required information at a drop, you know, at a very - well, in very short order.

But when you compare them to the U. S. agencies and you look at the - for instance the

2340 May 25, 1972 (MR . URUSKI cont'd ) ... .. Federal Bureau of Narcotics, they are interested in not only the narcotic aspect enforcement laws, but they also deal with counterfeit money; like the Secret Service , the Federal Secret Service, they also deal with counterfeit money; like the Customs Bureau they also deal with counterfeit money and it seems that the three - these various agencies are almost in competition to one another, ea ch one trying to seek out a ca se and each one almost harbouring information from one another and ea ch one working in his own little corner.

And when the me mber - as the Honourable Member from Souris-Kil larney goes on and states that they have been recognized as an outstanding Police force, I can say that because of the type of structure that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is made up, it is quite evident that they are almost - to my knowledge almost unique and that many police forces, many police forces send people on to courses that the Ro yal Can adian Mounted Police put on in Ottawa or in Re gina in crime detection.

As well the RCMP sends men on special courses to the Un ited States and other countries to study different aspects of law enforcement in this area. --(Interjection)-- ! would like to- the honourable member goes on in his resolution and states that the RC MP have been known by that name for more than 50 years.

I dug back into history somewhat and I would like to review when the RC MP was actually formed and that was in 1873 and they were originally ca lled the Northwest Mounted Police; and the original headquarters - I'm sorry the Honourable Member from E mer son is not here because they were set up in the present location of Em erson, Manitoba; and they had other detachments located in the various forts throughout Manitoba like Fort Wallace, Fort Ca lgary and Fort McLeod and several other places.

In 1904, the name was officially changed by King Edward VII and they were then recog nized; the name ''Royal" was added to the name of Northwest Mounted Police and they were then called the Royal Northwest Mounted Police in 1904. In 1920, a federal organization known as the Dominion Police was absorbed by the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, and these two forces combin ed - they were then renamed the Royal Canadian Mounted Police with an established head quarters in Ottawa, and this happened in 1920.

I'd only like to bring up, I was just wondering what type of debate took place in 1904 and 1920 when the name was changed from Royal Northwest Mounted Police to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police - I wonder if there were types of debate as went on during the summer when the name Royal Canadian Mounted Po lice was to be removed from police cars and detachment offices and es pecia lly from police cars and the name "Police" would be put on it. I think mainly the Member from Souris-Kil larney stated that mainly the debate was in the removing of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police of the police cars.

But basic ally the force has undergone quite a few name changes insofar as the name in its original force, but they have also added the French wording on to the crests of the constables and the offices. They have used the bilin gual standards on their emblems, they have Ro yal Canadian Mounted Police and then Les gendar�e s de Ro yal de Ca nada is on the tunics and shirts of the constables.

I understand that next year is the 100th anniversary of the Royal Ca nadian Mounted Police and my five year s brings back many memories of many friends that I still have and hold true to myself in the force; and I can say that to the members in the for ce, I think when you join a body or a group of men, of people such as the - as commonly known as the Mounties, there revolves a kind of comradeship and a kind of fellowship that is hard to explain, other than I thinl! you almost get the same type of fellowship when you go into political life, when you get involved with the public and many of �ur comra des here .

The fellowship in the Ro yal Ca nadian Mounted Police is something that I can only say - speaking as an ex-member, I say we all hitched about the same thing but when it came down to the nuts and bolts of getting things done; we pulled our socks up we got together and things were done . The years that I spent in the force - I know there have been many change s now - the member s, I understand are being paid for overtime and time-o ff.

I can say that the representa tions by the Commi ssion er - the present and the past Commissioners of the force on behalf of the members - they have certainly brought the working standa rds of the members in the force to one of the highest in Ca nada; and ind eed I think they deserve not only this right for the work that they are doing and have been doing and will continue to do. Now unfortunately this resolution came at a time that the Prim e Minister announced that there would be no further change.

I think membe rs on this side would still support it even though it's really - you could call it redundant because of the fact that the Opposition had voiced its criticism L'1 the House. And the Prime Min ister of Can ada realized that there was a great feeling in this respect because of the people in Ca nada; had a great feeling in this regard and he

May 25, 1972 (MR. URUSKI cont'd) . has changed in his mind in that and there will be no further changes made . I would ask that honourable members support this resolution. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone . 2341 MR. J. R. FER GUSON (Glad stone): Thank you, Mr; Speaker. This resolution brought forward by the Member for Souris-K illarney I feel is very appropriate at this time. In lacking our loyalist spokesman in the front bench, Staff Sergeant Bi lton, --(Interje ction)-- No , we're not. I feel it' s only appropriate --(Interjection)-- no we're not.

I feel it only appropriate that we should say a few words on his behalf on this resolution. Now I think that basic ally the symbol ''Royal" doesn't really carry the weight that it used to but it is a symbol that' s held the Comm onwealth together for two world wars; it certainly is something that has bound our people together regardless of our ethnic background. I think this was quite apparent during our Centennial Year when the Queen visited our province and I think that this is one of the symbols again that has held the force together; has given them a pride of something-that they represented.

We're very fortunate in the fact that we have a police force that we can be proud of. They have been quite free of sca ndal. There 's the odd time that they are sitting behind the radar trap that we're not too fond of them, but consequently if they weren't there I expect that the situation might be considerably worse. And I don't altogether go along with the way that this symbol was removed from the police cars.

I don't think that our Attorney General of Manitoba - maybe he wasn't consulted, I don't know, but all of a sudden it seemed to be that without any previous warning that the word "RCMP" was stricken from the sides of the car doors and we have the name "Police". And I think that this may be a fe deral organization but I think that we as people certainly should have the opportunity of having some say in what is going to be on these vehicles. Certainly as the Member from St.

George said, we're proud of our police force and I don't think that they would want to have this case taking place without a little bit of consultation either. Now, I don't know where you could go further on this resolution, Mr. Speaker, except again as I have sa id that we have a good organization ; it has been a symbol and it' s held them together; it has held our people together , and I think that it's a very timel y resolution and I am quite sure that members on both sides of the House will certainly be supporting this. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A. H. MACKLING, Q.

C. (Attorney-General)(St. James): Mr. Speaker, I'm delight ed to be able to say a few words tonight in support of a resolution moved from a member of the Opposition. It appears, Mr. Speaker, I'm going to have a cheering

section as is often the case from behind to some extent - but, Mr. Speaker, some of the words that I may say may not reflect all of the sentiments of my colleagues. However, they will represent my sincere views about a number of matters that are implicit in this resolution. First of all, Mr. Speaker , I agree with the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose that the resolution in its wording could have been much more positive in its expressi on of satisfaction in the expression of its satisfaction with the present basis of the Royal Ca nadian Mounted Police. There is a "has been" reference really in the

preamble that should not have been - but I for one, I for one do not want to nit-pick about the princi ple of a resolution because it 's clear that what is intended here is to make a ringing declaration of support in favour of a tradition that has been establish ed now for almost a hundred years in respect to this particular organization. I also, Mr. Speaker , I suppose could have some niggling references to some wording in the Re solved portion itself because really I don't think that I would want to necess arily dictate that the uniform could not be changed you know in a certain manner.

I mean I don't think we should expect that there should be a rigidity in the reference to the degree of change that may be possi ble in respect to uniform. I think that if it mentioned name particularly that would imply where the name is used, and perhaps another word could have been used to indicate the basic symbols of the force rather than pick out the word "uniform" . But be that as it may. Mr. Speak er, I was frankly bemused by the suggestion that there was some , there was some effort being made to remove the term ''R oyal" from the Royal Ca nadian Mounted Police.

When I heard the storie s, and when I heard that the Ri ght Honourable John Diefenbaker had raised the question in the House of Com mons , I thought surely, surely the Honourable Mr. Goyer and the Federal Government can't be really doing this; it's so silly , and so petty, that obviously, you know, it must be someone just trifling. But apparently -- and when I was asked to comment I indicated that I had heard that Mr. Goyer denied that there was going to be any change but you know one has to give credit where credit's due and the Honourable Mr.D iefenbaker

2342 May 25, 1972 (MR . MACKLING cont'd) ..... pursued the question, and obviously there was some deliber ate attempt being made to change the name and to deflower the heritage and tradition of this very noble organization , and despite the denials, Mr. Speaker , and this is one of the sad things , that people in parliament deny that these things are going on, and I'm not saying that Mr.

Goyer was ill-informed but he did deny that there was any basis for the suggestion , but it was several weeks later when the Prime Minister himself said that there was going to be a reversal obvious ly of a policy that was in motion to change the name of this organization. And really, Mr. Speaker , I think it was a silly exercise on the part of the Federal Government because I can understand people being concerned if there is substantial expense , substantial dis-economies of the utility of something that perhaps it could be changed. But what savings were going to be involved in this whole operation ?

There's going to be no net savings. I mean the change in the name wasn't going to produce any economie s at all. What in effect you did have , Mr. Speaker , was a net loss because to people right throughout Canada this police force is known by that name , and it has traditions that are worthy of preserving. So instead of there being any gain, any economy, there was a net loss to the people of Can ada. So I say it was a silly thought, a silly exercise , and it was a petty thing , and yet, Mr.

Speaker, it was obviously part of a deliberate plan to emasc ulate any traditions , the basic traditions of the Royal connection, and with that concern, I share the concern that has been voiced by Mr. Diefenbaker and others for that kind of erosion which is .totally unnecessa ry, and silly, and would be of substantial loss. Now in respect to the force itself I could do nothing better but say Amen to the words of the Honourable Member from St.

George who as one of the two horsemen in this House -- and I use that term affectionatel y because I believe that in the fraternity they refer to another mem ber of the Royal Ca nadian Mounted Police as a horseman -- the tradition runs deep because the Royal Can adian Mounted Police were horsemen. Now I notice the Honourable Member for Morris making notes with his pen. Now I hope that he doesn't horse around with the su bject matt er , the subject matter of this resolution because you know, Mr. Speaker, what I say is not empty praise towards this organization. --(Interjection)-- Mount the charge , eh ?

All right. The troops are riding with me tonight, Mr. Speaker. I'm not going to tell any stories about this being a warm spring night and someone borrowed a hose to go and water the lilies. No, I'm not going to make that kind of a speech. I'll leave that for the Honourable Member for Morris. He may want to say something about that. But, Mr. Speaker, I do want to say that since I have been enabled to hold the office of Attorney-General our relationship with the Royal Ca nadian Mounted Police has never been better. It has confirmed to me personally the calibre of the Royal Ca nadian Mounted Police.

Recently Assi stant Commissi oner , Gerry Mudge, has -- it has been indicated that he is retir ing at the end of this year , or during this year , and I have found him and his staff to be first class , and I say that in a very sincere and warm way. This is a police force of really high standard, high principles , and certainly efficient , and the arrangements which we have for the em ployment of the Royal Can adian Mounted Police in Manitoba are certainly to the benefit of the people of this province. The Honourable Member from St.

George has referred to the anniversary next year, and as has been confirmed earlier, Mr. Speaker, one of our staff, staff of the Attorney-General's Department , has been delegated to be the member of the com mittee dealing with the arrange ments for the celebration as it will take place in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, therefore I, in saying those few words, wish to indicate my wholehearted agreement with the principle of the resolution and I trust that now the Federal Government will know in no uncertain terms , and I trust that the honourable members who are asso ciated with the Liberal Party federally and have some friem1s in Ottawa, may communicate to them in no uncertain terms that this em ascu lation of the Royal Can adian Mounted Police Force is not accepted, is not recognized as having any worth at all, and is something that should have been repudiated by those in reference to their friends in Ottawa, because , as I indicate , I was appalled that this was a serious , a serious attempt on the part of a government organization to change the name of this organization.

And so, Mr. Speaker, I hope all of my colleagues are associa ted in support of this resolution, and I trust that we can pass it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker , it would appear for the first time this year , and I don't discount the fact that there will be some disagreement some time later , it would appear that for the first time this year there may be agreement in this House on one subject.

May 25, 1972 2343 (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) . I say maybe because there are other members anxious to get into the debate. Now when --(Interjection)-- I said there may be, I'm very cautious. However when the Attorney-General rose to his feet I was rather astounded at the term he used that there had been an attempt made to "deflower" the RC MP. Now I always thought that they were a pretty virile group of men - I don't believe there's any women in the organization as policemen - and it rather shook me that he would use this term, that there was a strong attempt made by some evil force to deflower them.

However we do owe it to Mr. Diefenbaker that he did raise the question in the House and it stirred up emotion , there's no question about that, it stirred up emotion on the part of many Can adian people from one end of the country to the other. But -- and I'm not making excuses, I'm making two suggestions. One suggestion is that -- and I accept the Commiss ioner's explanation when he gave his reason for this interdepart mental decisi on to be made to more clearly mark the police cars with the word "Police".

As I recall his decisi on was based on the fact that there are three large provincial police forces who are -- their cars are clearly marked. There's no question about it. When you meet an OPP car, or a Quebec Provincial Police car, or a provincial car in B. C. , there's no question about it that it's a police car, let alone the siren and the colouration, but it' s marked quite clearly "Police". and as I recall the Commiss ioner's explanation was that he wanted an in stantaneous identification. Now obviously this was not accepted by some of the public, it was not accepted by some of the public.

So as the Attorney-General has said, later on there had to be a statement from government, and a statement was made, a statement was made by the Prim e Minister and the Attorney-General was correct when he said after a delay of several weeks , a statement was made saying that there was no intention to erode or to change the name of this honourable force, so as I see the resolution now I still think it should go to Ottawa to remind the powers that be there that there are a large segment of the Canadian public who have a feeling, whether it's emotion , or connection with the old country, or whatever, that they like the word "Royal" and especially they like it in connection with the RC MP.

There's no question about that, no question at all. Now as we know the police forces in Manitoba -- I'm not talking about members of this House who have been stopped for speeding, or the Member for Virden has a long and continuing association I understand with the police force with his driving habits , and he bears them no ill will, nor do other members in this House bear any ill will when someone is found wanting in connection with respect to the law, be it speeding, or whatever. But surely as Manitobans ... A MEMBER: How many convictions have you got now? MR . G. JOHNSTON: Seven.

Surely as Manitobans it is almost an exercise in apologizing to stand and praise the force as we know it, because no one has a bad word to say against the RC MP in Manitoba, or in Canada, and also throughout the world they're a well respected law enforcement agency. There's no question about that. So I say in my few remarks that I appreciate my seatmate on my right, the Member for Souris-Lansdowne , bringing this forward to us so that we can express an opinion on it.

And perhaps forward to Ottawa the expressions of the representatives of the people of Manitoba that we believe , and we are tied to emotionally, and otherwise , the fact that the RC MP is one of the proud Canadian traditions and we stand behind it 100 percent. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . JOR GENSON: Mr. Speaker, there are ... Mr. Speaker, whenever the Attorney General rises for some reason or other he never fails to provoke me to rise to my feet. How ever I don't rise to condemn or criticize him in any way on this occasion.

This is one of the few occasions , as the Member for Portage has said, that most of us in this Chamber will agree. Although we have different views on different subjects I think on this particular one there is a great deal of unanimity. It's not quite like the story of the seven huskies who were pulling the sled. When the lead dog died there were different viewpoints expressed. The man who owned the team of huskies was saddened by the loss of a very valuable lead dog.

The other five dogs in the back were disheartened because they had an extra load to pull, but it improved consider ably the view of the se cond dog, and so therefore the resolution that is before us, although we may have different ways of expressing ourselves, and express ing sentiments on this particular subject, I think generally speaking we are in agreement that the symbol of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police must remain. But apart from the unanimity , and the fact that the Attorney-General always provokes me to rise to my feet, there is another reason why I rise and that is because of the unavoidable

2344 May 25, 1972 (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) . absence of the Member for Swan Ri ver who I'm sure would kill himself on the morrow if he found out that we had a debate on this particular subject and he was not able to partic ipate in it. So my intention is to attempt to run the clock out so that I will not deny him that opportunity when next -- and it may not arrive , but at least he can live in anticipation that he will be able to make the contribution that I know that he so eagerly wants to make on this particular resolution.

The Attorney-General said that the members of the, or former members of the RC MP referred to each other affectionately as horsemen. It's a more endearing term than is often used in this Chamber when we're referri ng to one another. Although the animal is the sa me we refer to each other in a different part of the anatomy. The Member for St. George reviewed somewhat the history of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and true enough it' s a grand and a glorious history that the force has had.

I don't think that the official biography of the RC MP really does it the kind of justice , however, that one can find in such a delightful book as written by Zane Grey in his history of early Western Canada - four books I recall the name of three of them. The Member for Thompson will be quite interested and he should read this book "Red Light on the Prairies" Which gives some history of early Winnipeg and cities in Western Canada and has something to do with the RCM P.

He might learn a little bit about the early days of Winnipeg and Saskatoon , Regina and the involvement of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police - that particular aspect of Western Ca nada' s history. And then there is the very factual book "Man Against the Desert" which deals with the depress ion on the prairies during those years. I found the one that was most interesting however , was his book about the boy from Winnipeg which had some most delightful passa ges that recalled his early days in the City of Winnipeg. But another book that deals - not at great length, but to some extent with the RC MP is Mr.

Brai thwaite's book "The Night we Stole the Mounty's Car", - it' s a story of a school teacher in the early prairie s, and he describes in some rather humorous detail some of the episodes of the schoolteachers in those days . I recommend it for light reading to a good many people who want to learn something about the RCMP and indeed something about the teaching profes sion in those days.

But I rather think that if one is to acquire a deeper insight into the early history of the RC MP , Joseph Kinsey Howard's book "The Strange Em pire" perhaps is one of the best books ever written on that subject, going into some detail the forma:tion of the Northwest Mounted Police at Fort Dufferin which is about two miles north of Em erson and it is now a historic site and one that is availabl e to anybody who wants to visit it - and I do recommend it to anybody who is interested in the early history of the RCM P. I had the occasion during within --(Interjection)-- Mr.

Speaker , one of the great diffi culties in speaking in this Chamber is the continuous boorish raucous interjections of the House Leader who --(Interjection)-- who never seems to acquire the spirit of this Chamber, which does provide that members of the Chamber do have an opportunity to express themselves not withstanding the fact that other people may not agree witli him. But that opportunity is normally provided.

The only person that doesn't seem to enter into that spirit of a Legis lative Chamber is the House Leader himself who really should be setting the kind of an example that enables - (Interjection)-- enables debate to take place in a fashion that people in the galleries at least can get some idea of what the kind of disci pline , indeed the kind of disci pline that the RCMP has and members of this Chamber should have when conducting debate in this Chamber . The House Leader as I say, should - should at least try to set some kind of example. However , it seems to be beyond his capabilitie s.

Sir, the RCM P is a living symbol of Canada , and if one was to trace it's history and trace all Canadian symbols , would find that tt is perhaps the only one that is a truly Canadian symbol. Most of Canada's culture, most of Canada's history is borrowed from other nations of tp.e world. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police was formed as a group of Canadians , has survived as a distinguishe d police force throughout the world and is recognized throughout the world as a distinguished Canadian symbol, and as such I believe should be preserved.

Those who would attempt to destroy this country always seem to want to start by destroying our symbols , traditions and our history, and there isn't an easier way of doing that than attempting to destroy the tradition s and the institutions of this country. The RC MP is a living Canadian institution, and one - that notwithstanding the kind of connotation that it may have in the minds of a good many people in Canada - is one that is worthy of preservation and one that we hope the government of this country will endeavour to preserve regardless of the efforts on the part of some to change that tradition .

May 25·, 1972 2345 (MR . JOR GENSON cont'

d) Sir, mention was made of the high standard among police forces of the world that has been set by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; with that, I don't think anyone will quarrel But I would hope - and I mentioned this earlier to the Attorney-General on a previous occasion - that the Royal Can adian Mounted Police will be able to maintain that high standard as a police force in this country; and that those standards that are set during the training programs in Regina and elsewhere will not be sacrificied or will not be reduced in any way, because there have been some expressions of opinion that I have heard from different people that the police force of a few years ago was of a much higher standard and a much higher calibre - and I have no evidence to support that but I have heard it - than that which we find today.

The reason that is given in many cases is because of the difficulty in obtaining recruits for the force. In order to ensure the sufficient numbers of people that are required to meet the ever-increasing needs of the RC MP , the training

schedule is reduced somewhat in order to fulfill that demand. I would hope that that would not be carried any further; I would hope that those standards would be main tained because they have been exemplary throughout this country and throughout the nations of the world; and I sincerely hope that in order to fulfill the demand there will be no effort made to reduce the very high standards that have been set in the past by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. MR. SPEAKE R: Order please. The hour of adjournment having arrived, the House will be adjourned until lO: OO a. m. tomorrow morning.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-91
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 91.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6336c057727a4e423ab05f7814eca2493801e58b

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).