LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 5 March, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONC URR ENT COM MITTE ES OF SU PPLY SUPPLY - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Lloyd G. Hyde (Portage Ia Prairie): 3.(dX 2)(a) - pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Before we adjourned this afternoon, I asked the Mi nister if he could give us a breakdown in terms of the thr ee pl acement programs, where the people came from, how long they stayed for each program. I wonder if he had chance since then to get that information together. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Hono urable Min ister. HON.

KEN MacMA STER (Thompson): Mr . Chairman, no, I mentioned this afternoon that we are doing a total analysis of the entire program, and I think by and large the bits and pieces of information I have given is all part of the overall review of it. We have assured the members that we are going to have a total review and analysis of the program, and I just do not have any more bits and pieces of it at the moment. I have giv en the members a fair amount of what we have at hand. MR.

McBRYDE: Ma ybe I mi su nder stood the Min ister this afternoon, I thought it was a matter of just tak ing those figu res and putting them in that kind of order I spoke about. I take it from the Minister now, that we have wait for some sort of a final evaluation of th ese programs to get the communities, for example. the Flin Flon Project; from what commun ity do those people come and how many of them stayed for how long? MR. MacMASTER: That's all a part of the total review.

I guess what the member means by how long - the retention rate is something that we are very int erested in and we are hoping to do some type of follow-up as to why they left and if in fact they were going to other employment or what the thoughts were on it. It is something we intend to do, and I said this afternoon that we will do that as thoroughly as possible and produce a report. MR. CHAIRM AN: 3.(d) - pass - the Honourable Member for Rupertsl and. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, understand we are on the Employment Support and Couns el ling Service, and I ha ve some general questions, but I'm not sure which

section they would fall under, but perhaps I can add ress some of them MR. MacMASTER: We are on (

c) Northern Youth Employment. MR. BOSTROM: Can the Mini ster perhaps explain what his program is in that area for this fiscal year under consideration? I note the amount is pretty well the same as before, and if you have answered that question this afternoon, if I missed it, I'll receive the information in Hansard. MR. MacMASTER: We went over the whole program very thoroughly this afternoon. It's really identical to la st year in num bers, general ly in numbers and generally in numbers of people. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Is there any effort made by the Department through this program to tie in with the Federal programs that are available from time to tim e for youth employment; fhat is those that are offered through Indi ans Affairs and/or the Canada Employment Department? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we went over that pretty thoroughly this afternoon too, and the bottom line answer is yes, we work very close with the Federal Government in relationship to the endeavours that are taking place. MR.

DEPUTY CHAI RMAN: 3. (d)(2) (a) - pass; 3.(d )(2Xb l - pass; 3.(d)(2 Xc) - pass; 3.(d )(2Xd) - pass; (3)(a) - pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. MacMASTER: I was going to give my opening remarks. MR. DEPU TY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. MacMASTER: The main obje ctives of the Se lkir k Training Plant operation is to facil itate development of special needs indiv iduals to enable them to enter the labour force or to pursue further training and to produce a wide variety of wood and metal products for Ma nitoba parks.

The Plan t in co-op erat ion with Red Ri ver Commu nity Coll ege and CEIC pr ovides a combination of classroom and on-the-job tra inin g relevant to metal and wood trades. The classroom component is oriented towards indus trializ ed skills and job read in ess, while the on-the- job portion dwells on practical trade skills. App roxima tely two months are spent in a classroom with four to five months on the job. Counselling assistance is also provided in assisting individuals in locating permanent employment.

Metal and wood prod ucts being prod uced are manufa ctured accord ing to orders placed by the Manitoba Parks and they are then sold to the parks. With respect to staffing at the Selkirk Plant there are 14 staff man years. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the products that are produced by the plant, is there any effort made to sell th ose prod ucts com merci ally as well as through the parks, perhaps the Mi ni ster ... MR. MacMASTER: No, we deal basically with the Department of Parks, partly, I guess, because it's 1369

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 more of a training plant than a heavy assembly production plant, though we do produce things that they use. it's more geared for training and job acquaintance, that type of thing, rather than a heavy production commercial sort of an enterprise. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: No, go ahead. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: I wonder if the Mi nis ter could ind icate what kind of a percentage of the parks' needs are supplied by this plant, as I understand, it's tables, out houses, barbecues, and th ose types of items.

What percentage of th ose needs for the Parks Branch would this operat ion pr ovide and what percent would the y be getti ng thr ough the Pur chasing Bureau? MR. MacMASTER: I'm afraid, Mr. Chairman, the member has got me. I just don't know what precise percentage; the only way I can get the answer to that, I guess, is to get a hold of the Minis ter of Parks and see if we can get that. MR. McBRYDE: The reason I asked that question, Mr. Chairman, I know that in 19 76-77 it appeared that there was enough of a need to ha ve a similar type operation somewhere else.

The feasi bility of a number of communities were being looked at and I wondered if in my curiousity if that was still the situation, where there might be quite a bit more need of Parks Branch and other government departments for this kind of product, that could in fact, be located in places of high un employment and become a combina tion of training and production operation. Ma ybe this go ver nment isn't tha t in ter ested in pursuing that further, in terms of the communi ties with high unem ployment in providing this kind of facility.

The other question I have was in terms of the 14 staff man years, the Minis ter mentioned counselling for one, training for another. I wonder if the Minis ter could give us a breakdown on exactly what those 14 positions involve. MR. MacMASTER: There's a plant manager, a plant cou nsellor, a home advisor; th ree ins tructors in woodwork, thr ee instructors in metal work; one sign and paint in structor; one paint forema; one woodwork foreman; an inventory clerk and a typist. MR. McBRYDE: Thank you for that information.

The Recoverable portion here, we're not quite there yet, but it would help to und erstand the whole operation, if the Mi nis ter could ind icate; is that the amount recoverable from Parks or is it a tr aining gr ant recoverable from somewhere else. MR. MacMASTER: From Parks, Mr. Chairman . MR. McBRYDE: The Recov erable from Canada

section here then, would be what? MR. Mac;�MASTER: The $200,000, if the member would look at his num bers, the $200,000 is from Parks; the $50,000 is from Canada. MR. McBRYDE: Recoverable from Canada would be some sort of a training assistance or what? I really hate to suggest this with my leader sitting right next to me, I might get kicked or something, but if this operation were further north they could probably get 60 percent recov erable from the Federal Government, rather than $50,000 out of a $800,000 operation. Would that be correct? MR.

MacMASTER: lt could be correct and I' ll take it up with the sitting ML A and see if wishes to have that. The plant relocated in another portion of the province. The Member for The Pas and myself come from an area where we might be interested in that kind of ... MR. DEPUTY CHA IRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr . Chairman, I can't very well let tha t go by, can I, when I'm confronted with the blue and the orange mafia from the north.

I notice last year, the Member for Lac du Bon net, had posed a question to the Min ister as to where people were going upon graduation from the training school, if there would be any his tory of their progress. The Mini ster at that time on page 111 9 of Hansard, stated that, "I expect from the member's questi oning, it's not satisfactory to him and I can only say to him, that this time next year, we'll ha ve a better handle on where people are going, and what has been happening.

There is not his tory that we can dete rmin e, because this question was asked by myself, well maybe in the history of the people that are passing through thi s establish ment." I wonder if the Mi nister would have any information that he could reveal to us, as to what has taken place in evaluation over the past year. MR. MacMASTER: Well, I can give the member some nu mbers, we are again reviewing this as the Leader of the Opposition may or may not know.

In the last couple of years, I ha ve promised myself and gov ern ment and Opp osition a go od number of analysis of a large number of programs and we've been giving them out as we went along. This is one that we hope to have completed in the next two to th ree months. We've gone back for the information of the questionaire. We've gone back to 19 78 to gi ve us a good run at what's really happening rather than just use last year's, so that gives us a three-year run. We expect that to be comple ted in the next couple of months.

In the figu res we do have, the number that went on to employment during the fiscal years of 1978-79 was 23. From my records 23 went on to full employment jobs. In 19 79-80 there there 28 that went on to full­ time employment and to date - and the only figur es we have now is to Jan uary 1st - there was 23 so far. Now the precise que stion tha t the member is asking is where they're going, into what kind of work is what will be part of the analysis, just what kind of jobs are we getting for these people.

At the end of 19 78-79 - that would have been April 1s t there were 45 people in the program, this is the end of the year. At the year end of 19 79- 80 ther e were 42 and as of Janu ary 1s t this year, there were 56. 1370

Thursday, 5 March, 198 1 The num ber of trainees beginning the fiscal year - you mus t realize the se numbe rs are sort of hodge-podgey because they come and go all the time - but there was 21, April 1s t, in 19 78-79 going at that point into it, and there were 45 when I reported in 19 79-80 going into it; and in April 1s t this past year there were 42 going into the program; so this gives you an idea of the numbers that are going in. During the entire year of 19 79-80, there was a total of 80 that were accepted.

During 19 79-80 there were 76 that were accepted and to Janua ry 1s t this year. ther e ha ve been 89 accep ted. So that's basically all the figur es I ha ve at the moment.

Now there's a heck of a lot more detail that we will be finalizing in a review of the pr ogram, where they're going, how long they're going, why they're quitting, why they would drop out, where they go back to or if they're going on to other jobs; did two or thr ee months of introduction to the city life of Selkirk and familiarizing thems elves with that sort of living; did that then acquaint them and equip them well enough to move on to maybe another job in Selkirk; just get out of the plant. We're trying to nail that down, it's difficult.

But we think we'll have a better overview of the whole operation in the three-year period - 78, 79 and 80, for the next couple months. MR. PAWLEY: Can the Min ister ind icate whether there are any plans to expand the existing facility. 1t was built originally in, I think it was 19 68, and an addition was added to the facility in approxima tely 1974. And I'm wondering if there's any intention to undertake any further expansion. MR.

MacMASTER: Well, I would think tha t the Leader of the Opposit ion would appr eciate th at before I could give a firm answer to that. we ha ve to assess what we've been doing with what we have. We may find there's things that we've been doing in the last two or three years that aren't adequate. We may find in as many personal interviews with people who have grad uated or quit that there's di fferent approaches we should be taking in that operation. I can't give the member any assurance that it will be expanded.

I can give him some assurance that we plan on keeping it open, from what we know of it. it's sort of a cursory review. We're reasonably satisfied with the operation. MR.

PAWLEY: I want to just ind icate to the Mi nister that I do believe that this plant has been one of the most successful operations in developing ski lls of tho se tha t migh t not oth erwise find gainful employment , often insuring that man power enters into industry that might not otherwise enter into indu stry, so that when the Honourable Member for The Pas questions about moving the plant I say no, but I think that it is the example of the kind of activity that should be explored in other areas in order to reduce the levels of unem ployment, num bers of people on welf are in area s of disadvantage.

I'm sure we could all lis t various commun iti es where the re's very, very he avy unemployment. Ha s the Min ister any plans to consider the expansion of these kind of facilities? Not precisely this necessar ily, but fac ilit ies that will provide tra ining, that will provide employment, which will generate at the same time talent development, skill de velopment, so that tho se that are oth erwis e unemployed can enter into the workplace, zeroing in particularly on those communities within the province where there is either high unemplo yment or high underemplo yment. MR. MacMASTER: Mr .

Chairman, without divulging any items that are being negotiated, I can tell the Member for Selkirk that that type of situation. and maybe not identical to or maybe not even close to, but the same sort of philosophy, I basically think, should be followed when we're looking at the Inner City Core Program. for the development for the City of Winnipeg.

Now I don't know whether it would be a Selkirk type training plant; I'm not sure whether it would be a conv erted massive warehouse of a variety of dif ferent trades or whether trying to develop people into semi-skills, or introduction programs to various trades; or I don't know just what we'll end up with, but surely with that Inner City Core Development Agreement. whenever that is finalized, that the type of philosophy that's applied in the Selkirk training plant, without characterizing the group within the city tha t the Core Ar ea Development Agreement is sup posed to deal with, I think you'll find that there is a need for something like this, and I can't for the life of me, if I wanted to tell the member what that will be, but there just has to be some very basic training structu res and programs put in place for a lot of people within the city who have come in from a good number of outlying areas.

MR.

PAWLEY: I just also want to emphasize to the Mi nis ter that to my experience in Selkirk, it's had some contact with the trainees and those that are respon sible for the plant, is that its success is dependent to a large extent on the fact that there ha ve been home advisors and family counsellors that ha ve assisted in more than just the simple job tr aining, but ha ve thr ough the years pr ovided leadership and guida nce in helping people, for ins tance, to look after some of the obvious problems that they are confronted with insofar as urban living is concerned , that they would not otherwise be conscious of.

I assume that when the Min ister ind icates that he's looking at not this kind of program, some similar kinds of programs, that he would fully conscious of the need for providing those additional programs. In another area, I would like to ask the Mi nister whether there are any plans under way to enter into any negotiations with the Federal Government to provide the Federal Government and the Federal Parks with furniture; enter into contracts with them for the sale of furnitur e. supplies etc., metal work, that would be produced in this plant. I know that you are providing them to the Provincial Parks.

I know that a few years ago ther e was, I think, some dis cussion with the federal personnel to see if there could be some further expansion that would involve the provision of the materials from this plant to Federal Parks as well. Maybe the Mi nister can advise whether or not that is presently the case. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I have to reiterate two or three th ings I've said which I think answers 1371

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 the question. First of all, we want a good assessment of the operation at that plant and the people and the attitudes and the thoughts of the people that are in tha t plant. We also want to determine, and the question was asked it was a good one - and I just don't have the answer; are we supplying 10 0 percent of what the Provincial Parks want. We can suppose that at 60 percent, or 70, or 80, or 90, whatever; I ha ve no idea whether it's 30 or 40.

We may find when I get that question answered on how well we've done since 1978 to 19 80, what further has to be done to make the plant more attractive to the clientele going in, and ma ke their op por tunit ies greater when they come out. We have to answer tho se basic questions. And keeping in the mind the answer I gave to the Member for Ru pertsland, that the high priority is not on the commercial sale side; the high priority is on introducing people to work habits, and introducing them to the use of their hands in a trade that we think will be useful to them when they get out.

Those thr ee parts, I think, answer the ques tion. That's why I am saying to the Member for Selkirk, that we are talking about two very useful trades here. Maybe when we get into developing something in the inner city, we should be looking at six trades or eight trades or ten trades, or maybe we should be looking at an introduction to them all to see what people want. A lot of the people that we're dealing with have never had the opportunity to involve themself in any trade.

So I have all kinds of ideas in my head, which I haven't put forward yet, of the kinds of training, the types of opportunity, the types of familiarization in situations that should be created within the city for that inner city core thing. This, we think is doing a reasonably good job.

We want to analy ze it, we've spent a lot of money and the previous government spent a lot of money, and nobody has ever really gone out and interviewed all the clientele, both on their way in, how well they were received, what they thought of the program and what they thought of the in structors, how comfor table they felt when they went out, how successful they were, how were they treated in their future employment, why they quit, why the y went back home. Did th ey, after two months feel comfortable enough to get out on their own? There's a whole host of questions that just haven't been answered. MR.

PAWLEV: I don't intend to prolong this, I just want to comment that I'm somewhat disappointed, I'm not pointing the finger either at the Mi nister or any previous Mi nister, that in fact thi s analysis has not been done, because I would ha ve hoped that we would have that kind of information avai lable to us because the plant has been in operation for I guess, 12 , 13 years, 1968 to the present time. y own impression personally, having had some contact with those involved, is that it's been quite successfu l.

There are certainly those that do not succeeed but a high portion do enter into the job market and in fact make a real contribution as a result of the skills that they learn at the plant. Secondly, I would hope that in addition to the inner city core that the Minister would look at other areas of high underemployment to see whether the same kind of pr inciple could be dev eloped, for instance in parts of the parklands . parts of Northern Manitoba, and eastern Manitoba.

This, I think is one of the most effective ways of reducing unemployment and welfare, not necessarily speaking in terms of the short term, the present generat ion, but in order to build that kind of environment that fam ili es eventually, not one ge nerat ion and the next generation, become gainfully employed, and at the same time being entered into urban life.

I say, and I don't want to be repetitive, that this pr oject, I think, has much to offer by way of example, to reduce unemp loyment, huma n waste, and restore to people talents and skills so they can contri bute to their provincial communi ty, which seems to me should be, I'm sure, the objective of all members of this Legislature to insur e that residents of the pr ovince receiv e every opportunit y to contribute their maximum abilities and skills rather than permit tho se skills to go undeveloped through their lifetime.

I want to assure the Min ister that he certainly has my total support in any projects of this nature that he would be undertaking. MR. CHAIRMAN: (3)(a) - pass; (3XaX b) - pass; (3)(

c) pass; (4)(a) - the Member for Burrows. Just a moment. The Honourable Min ister. MR. MacMASTER: If the Me mber for Bu rrows would let me read my opening statement on the - (In terjection)- that's the routine we've followed and all the members ha ve found it reaso nably informative. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR.

MacMASTER: The objectives of the Private Sector Youth Employment program are to reduce seasonal youth unemployment levels, to stimulate the creation of new jobs for youth within the private sec tor, to in crease pr act ical work experien ce opportunities for youth, to increase the income of youth to enable them to return to school, should they choose, and to stimu late the creation of new jobs for youth within the private sector.

The program is designed to create greater employment opportuni ties for youth between the ages of 16 and 24 via financial inc entiv es to private sector employers to partially subsid ize wages for jobs which could otherwise not have been created . The resulting new opp ortuniti es have posit ive effects in lowering unemp loyment rates for youth between Ma y and October and prov iding young people with good work experience, skills, contacts and references, to better equip them for eventual fulltime participation in the labour force.

During the pa st year, pr ogram staff ha ve developed and revised application and claim forms as well as revived regulations to clarify the program's intent to ensure its integrity in application, and to clarif y its scope and intent to program users. Expanded monitoring and auditing functions ha ve strengthened pr ogram controls. Su rveys and evaluations are being conduc ted to deter mine program effect iveness, clarity, and accessi bility to employers. With respect to staf fing, there were th ree staff man years in the program last year, we are requesting five staff man yers. an inc rease of two for 19 81- 82.

The 1372

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 two additional staff are clerical positions that we feel are required. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, in dealing with this item and with matters of general application to yout h, youth tr aining, youth emp loyment opportunities, I think that some general comments do ha ve to be made.

There was a better opportunity for that type of debate at one time, up until a couple of years ago when the Est imates were set up differently, when one was able to, under a specific item, de ba te the overall issue of human development, in particular human development as it applies to youth, but given the Estimates as they're set up now, we do not appear to have quite the same opportunity. -( Interjection)- Well, the point that I'm making, Mr.

Chairman, is once upon a time we had an item called Oppo rtuni ties for Hu man Development, and under the umbrella of that item it took in, well, some appropriations which are not part of this Honourable Mi nister's department, that's true, namely Student Aid, but it did include the Youth Secretariat, Special Programs, New Careers, Special Projects, Community Education and the like. Anyway, we'll try our best to make a comparison between what had been done and what is being done and hopefully th ereby, to dete rmine wha t progress the Minis ter is making within that area. Now, it would seem, Mr.

Chairman, and I hope that I am not transgressing the rules of the committee by sort of taking an overall view of what's remaining, because it's all so closely int egrated, because in all of the items we are dealing with youth programs, but I think that it's quite apparent to us that in what's before us in the Estimates this year, really does reflec t about a 66 percent reduction in youth programs over the past four years. That is from 19 77 to 19 81. As I've ind icated to you, Mr.

Chairman, I do not wish to transg ress the rules of the committee, but I think it should be pointed out that in 19 77, for the programs which the Mi nis ter has within his Esti ma tes, Priv ate Sector Youth Emplo yment, Emp loyment Youth Services, New Careers, etc., he has about $7.5 million. For the same programs in 19 77, there was an appropriation of $8.5 million plus an additional, approximately $5 million for special projects, 1. 9 plus 2.8 plus one-fifth of a million for student aid. So what I' m saying, Mr.

Chairman, if you take $8.5 million of 19 77 dollars and translate them into 1981 you're looking at something in the order between $11 million and $12 million. And then if you add the prog rams which over the years th at had been scrapped, which is another $5 million, so you add that to the $8.5 which gives you $13 .5 million and you transla te tha t into 1981 dollars, you're looking at something bordering on or perhaps even exceed ing $20 million. So on that basis, Mr. Chairman, I say that over the past four years there has been a 66 percent reduction.

Now, I know that with respect to this particular item that we're looking at now, the Mi nister will say, well that is one that this government was particularly concerned about and I'd really beefed up and so forth, and he may be right, that there is more money in the Private Sector Youth Employment Program then there was previously. But the fact still remains, that in terms of the total dollars spent on youth oriented programs, on programs designed to do the type of thing that the Private Members' Resolution of the Honourable Member for St.

Matthe ws, which we debated in the House today, purports to do, there is less money for that type of thing; for tho se types of programs. So I'm mentioning that at this point in time, Mr .

Chairman, because I think that we have to keep the overall objectives, aims and objectives of hu man development programs in mind, when we deal with each of the items that appear in the Estima tes on a line-by-line basis, because it's quite apparent that even though, if we compare one line with another identical line of four years ago, that it may appear to sh ow an incr ease, But if one ma kes an overall comparison, putting all of these programs in one package, comparing what the Mi nis ter proposed to do in the fiscal year 1981 -82, with what had been done in the fiscal year 19 77-78, there is in fact a 66 percent reduction. (In terjection)- Yes, figure it out.

MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr . Chairman, the NDP and myself, sometimes talk about facts and figur es and we alwa ys dis agree on them and I guess the Progressive Party's facts and figures, wherever they are. The facts that we ha ve as it relates to, now, I don't know what all the Mem ber for Bu rrows is talking about, there may be other things in other areas, but I think the important figure - and I'd like the Member for Burrows to go back and dig into his records - important fig ures are the numb er of young people that are employed.

In 19 76-77 there was 5,3 18 youth employed in the Pr ovince of Ma nitoba under th e go vernment programs. In 19 77-78, sadly enough, that dropped to 4, 766. In 19 78-79 it jumped to 9,687. In 19 79-80 it jumped to 10,557 and this last year we came out of a year of employment under our various programs of 13,8 45. So since 19 76-77, and I don't know how we find the figur es that the Member for Burr ows is talking about, but in 19 76-77 there were 5,318 young people employed one way or another through government assistance; 5,318, and last year we had 13,8 45.

I tho ught, regardless of whether the official Opposition and the Member for Bu rrows, with his party, I tho ught the objective - we could put philosophical stuff out of the way - I thought the objective was real ly to tr y and get young people working. (Interje ction)- Well, il haven't finished. The num bers that we have and I suppose there might be others in other departments, but the numbers that we ha ve is th at there was $4, 11 8,7 00 spent on youth employment in 19 76-77. Now it's important to relate $4, 11 8 ,000 to 5,000 jobs; 5,300. In 19 80 -81 we had $6,500,000; I' m cutting out the hun dreds.

So in 19 76-77 the NDP spent $4, 11 8,000 to create 5,300 jobs. We spent $6,500,000 to create 13, 845 jobs. Does the Member for Burrows really care if we can do it for $5 million or $6 million or $7 million or $4 million. Is he not really int erested in the number of young people that are working? The other particular point . . . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRM AN: Point of or der. The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: wonder if the Min ister could provide us with the basis of his statistics, because 1373

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 I'm lookin g at his own publi cation, 19 80 Annua l Report, Department of Labour and Man power, where it's pointed out that for expenditure of $4,278,000 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of order. You'd be out of order. MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's a point of order when the Mi nister .. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, you were requesting information. it's not a point of order. 3.(

a) MR. MacMASTER: The one fina l point tha t the Mem ber for Burr ows should remember, that when the NDP was running a lot of their youth programs, I suppose they were doing them as well as the y thought they could, under the circums tances. They might have changed their appr oach at a later date also, but they didn't. The fact was, part of their major costs for less students, was the fact that you were empl oying at full sal ary so many of th e students. Now the rationale is simpl e. There was 4,500 or 5,000 or something - the num bers are th ere, tha t we paid $1 .50 towards their salary.

Whereas what the NDP was trying to do was to give youth employment, but to pay their full salaries, so that throws your rationale of dollars for youth. The in tere sting num bers are the num bers of youn g people that are working. I would think, I would really sincerely ask the Mem ber for Burr ows to consider. it's the number of kids that are working, the young people that are working; that's the issue at stake. (lnterjection)­ Well, I can go into the Private . . . if you want to ask that question; that's an excellent question. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRM AN: The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like the Mi nis ter to give us an indication of where he obtains his statistics, because in his own publication, the 1980 Annual Report of the Department of Labour and Manpower, on page 63, The Manitoba Private Sector Youth Emplo yment Program, it's pointed out to the government for an expenditure of $4.2 million created 5,400 jobs. Wher e are the other figur es which he is referring to, where he claims that for $6 million they produced some 13 ,000-plus jobs? MR. MacMASTER: Good qu est ion. The member should appreciate what heading under the Estima tes we're dealing with.

We're dealing with Private Sector Youth Program, the specific item he referred to in the book. He's absolutely correct. That's a Private Sector Yout h Program cost for those nu mber of students. As we get into the rest of the Estimates, you'll find that there were more students than more money. And this is the objection that the Member for Burrows had, that it's not all lumped into one. I wasn't trying to de- lump it and confuse anybody.

I actually thought, tha t logic told me that the Members of the Opposition would rather ha ve piece by piece by piece so they can zero right in, they know what the heck they're talking about, they know what they can grind away at, what they're happy with and say the heck with and pass. That was my logic in having it broken up. MR.

BOSTROM: Well, my request to the Mi nister is still to provide us with the statistics and the basis of tho se sta tis tics, wh ich he jus t quo ted to the committee, because they do not seem to make logical sense to me, when you quote in your report that for $4.2 million, you've provided 5,400 jobs and suddenly you jump to 13 ,000 jobs with an expenditure of another $2 million. What programs are you talking about, when you're referring to the 13,000 jobs? MR.

MacMASTER: If the member will look in his Estima tes book, the one right in front of him, he'll see that there's other Youth Emplo yment Programs that are following and if you add them up at the end, hopefully they come to the figure of $6,5 18, 000.00. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mi nister of High ways. HON. DON ORCHARD Pembina): Mr. Chairman, jus t want to take this opportuni ty and I really appreciate the Member for Burrows brining up this topic. We can go back four years ago and for an expen di tur e of a little over $4. 1 million, th e government of the day managed to employ some 5,300 or create some 5,300 jobs.

Now under our Min ister's program, in which we provide an incentive to people to hire students, some $6.5 million, and we constantly hear from time-to­ time how the value of the dollar is eroding, so that in four years we might well equate the $4.1 million spent in 1976 to the $6.5 million spent last year as being fairly constant dolla rs, and here under our program we have 13 ,800 jobs created.

And I think tha t all political rhetoric aside, that even the most dogmatic adherent to paying people 10 0 percent wages, such as I hope the Member for Burr ows is not one of tho se, has to admit that the taxpayer of Manitoba and the youth of Manitoba, and that's the important component of this whole student employment program is, the students are certainly much better served by the program that we've instituted in the last couple of years, where 13 ,800 jobs are available and partiall y funded by the Provincial Government, rather than some 5,300 jobs.

And I might go back and point out some of the uniqu e feat ur es of the pr evious ad minis tration's student employment program. I remember that very well, because I happened to take

part in that one back in those glorious da ys of 19 76. What we were paying students to do, in our area, was to paint buildings and there were more barns and gr anerie s pai nted in Thomp son munici pality that summer, than probably has ever been painted before. And the idea of a student employment program is go give a student some kind of job experience, so th at they can go to their employer in years future and say to that employer, I ha ve had this and this and this summer job employment experience, therefore I am valuable to you and your firm.

Under the NDP program students could go and say that I painted all summer; I slapped paint on gr aner ies and barns and fences and everything else. Under our program, we didn't have such make work programs. We offered the private sector the ability to hire th ose students and pay a portion of their wages so that students would learn how to operate machi nery, take up construction skills and a 1374

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 wide variety of very useful skills, that they could come to their employers at a future date and point out some very positive job experience, that was valuable to them, that was valuable to their futur e job, to the future job they may want to take on. The students coming out of our progr am, the 13,8 00 of them, that are coming out of our program, can go to future employers and show to th ose futur e employers that they ha ve had some meaningful job experience, that they've had a job experience which can be utili zed in the fut ure and is excellent reference.

They're not jobs tha t have been created to paint buildings that didn't need painting.

And I think that the Minis ter deserves a lot of credit, in his efforts for making the $6.5 million that we have spent in the last fiscal year, go towards helping 13 ,800 students obtain gainful employment and employment that they can go and use as a positive credential towards future employment and future training, and 1 believe the Mi nister deserves a great deal of credit for this kind of a program. lt certainly has fit the bill for two-and one-half times the number of students and we're getting into this two-and one-half times one.

And this is one time that I'll agree with the old socialist formula that was well espoused in the glorious years from 19 69 to 19 77, where nobody should ha ve two-and-one-half times one in the wage scale. Mr. Chairman, I want to commend the Min ister of Labour and Man power of the Province of Manitoba for adhering to tha t two-and-one-half ti mes one formula in employing two-and-one-half time s th e number of students that were ever available under any student employment program that our socialist friends had in their years.

Two-and-one-half times one has been well served by this Mi nister and 1 congratula te him. MR. DEPUTY CH AIRMAN: The Memb er for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman, you know, I wasn't aware that the painting was a trade or a craft of less ranking somewhat less down the scale than others and I'm not -(I nterjection)- well, now, Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Min ister is talking about 5,000 painters, and he knows dam well there were not 5,000 painters.

They were doing a variety of jobs and that was one of them, which is just as significant and jus t as impo rtant and jus t as valuable as carpentr y or learning to op erate and getting experience in operating a certain type of machine or whatever. But what I would like to ask the Min ister, when he talks about his 13 ,000 jobs, could he translate that in relation to the expr ession used to be man months, but I don't know, is that a sexist expression today - but person months, weeks, whatever, people months, people days, because you know, Mr. Chairman, you can create 13, 845 one-day jobs.

You can create 13 ,845 one-week jobs, one­ month jobs, there's a vast difference. But now the Minis ter of Transporta tion is expr essing disagreement. The Minis ter knows full well that you can have a job for one - now if the Min ister is including a one-day job or a one-week job as one job and you add up several hun dred of those, well there's 1, 000 jobs.

So I think that to make a more accura te comparison between what was done in 19 77 and what was done in 19 80, I think that the Mi nister does ha ve to relate the number of bodies employed and the length of time that they worked, and that way he'll be able to give us a meaningful comparison. (I nterjection)- That is the question. MR. MacMASTER: In 1978, under the Private Sector Youth Program, the average working period of the students inv olved in the Pr ivate Sector Youth Program was 8.6 weeks.

In 1979, the average working period under the Private Sector Youth Program was 9.6 weeks and in 1980 the best calculations we can give now and we haven't totally reviewed it, but the best calculation we have to date is exactly 10.6 weeks, so we've been gaining a week a year on an average th rougho ut the Priv ate Sector Youth Program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows MR. HANUSCHAK: One further question: what are the cri teria in terms of eligibil ity to qual ify for assistance under this program.

In other words, what are the criteria for the employer because it is the employer, I presume, who is the applicant, to obtain the benefits under this program? MR. MacMASTER: We wanted it to be a newly created job, we do not want it to replace people that are permanently there, it will be ages between 16 & 24. MR. HANUSCHAK: How does the Mi nis ter know th ose were newly created jobs? MR.

MacM ASTER: We ha ve la st year and we prepared it this year, a review of the entir e operation, we're monitoring the jobs and we're auditing on a spot check basis much more thoroughly this year than we have in the past two years. MR. HANUSCHAK: One further question, I believe some other honourable members want to ask questions. Could the Mi nister define, you know, what does he mean by newly created job? If I just may elaborate for a seco nd.

I would presume tha t if there was an obvious vacancy where somebody quit a week or two ago, that filling that vacancy is not a newly created job, but if the employer managed to live with that vacancy for six months or a year, and then decided to fill that vacancy, would that constitute a newly created job? MR. MacMASTER: Well, the first thing we've done th at wa sn't done in years gone by is that the employer has to certify in fact that this is something in addition to what he would employed.

In addition to that, we review all the appl ications and access to the best of our ability whether in fact it is something additional to what he would have required; and just for the information of the Com mittee, during our scr eening pr ocess, we thr ew out over 100 appl ica tions which we didn't feel fel l in to the catagory. Now, the Mem ber for Burr ows might say "You betcha, but I'll bet there were 115 " and I say to him very candidly, "Ma ybe, there was 115." We're doing the very best hu manly possible, we think we've got it under control and we tell you very candidly, 1375

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 very honestly that we th rew out over 100 applications which we for good reason knew that that wasn't newly created jobs. Because it doesn't matter what program is in place, there are the abu sers in society. MR. HANUSCHAK: Were employers such as E. P. Taylor, and Mr. West on, were they eligi ble for assistance under this program? MR. MacMASTER: I'm not sure if E.P. Taylor operates a heck of a lot of th ings in Manitoba, but if in fact he did and if in fact he was creating jobs, I don't ha ve any thing philo sophic ally agains t E.P. Taylor crea ting jobs for children or young people.

To give the member just a idea of, and I'll just give him some of the occupations that the young people were in volv ed in.

The largest one was farm ing, hortic ultur al, and animal husbandr y op erations; service occ upations; sales occupations; clerically related occupations; occupations in sports and recreat ion; art ist ic, literary and perfo rming arts; occupations in medicine and health; tea ching related occ up ations; occ up ations in social sciences and related fields; occupations in natural science, engi neering and mathema tics; managerial adminis trative related occupations; mining, including oil and gas field related oper at ions; pr oces sing occ upa ti ons; machining and related occupations; production, fabrica ting, assem bling, repair occupations; construc tions tr ades occ upations; transpor tation equipm ent op erat ing occupations; ma terial handling related oc cupa ti ons; fish ing, hunting, trapping related occupations; forestry and logging operations.

That's the general idea of the kind of categories that they fall into. MR. HANUSCHAK: And a lot of th ose jobs could ha ve inv olved painting. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: I'm int erested in the statistics the Honourable Mi nister is presen ting, because in his own report as I referred to earlier, it does refer to 5400 jobs being created under thi s program, the Private Sector Youth Em ployment Program for a total expenditure of $4.2 million. So for the other $2. million plus, which the department spent, I assume that th ey created 8400 jobs with tha t. Is tha t correct? MR.

MacMASTER: You'll ha ve to excuse me. I've been trying to get the answer to the question before the question came and I didn 't hear the last part of it. MR. BOSTROM: My question was for $4.2 million ap parently 5,400 jobs were crea ted, which are rea sonably comparable with the program as operated under the previous administra tion. Now for an additional $2 million plus the Mi ni ster is sugges ting, I believe, that there was an additional 8,400 jobs created to make a total of 13,800. Can the Mi nister indic ate under whic h appropria tion those jobs were created? MR.

MacMASTER: Employment and Youth Services at the top of the next page, coming right up behind you. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the Mi nister seemed to be indicating, in response to the question from the Honourable Member for Bu rrows, that all the jobs that were created were of an average of ten weeks or eight weeks, or whatever over the period. At least he seemed to be suggesting they were qui te lengthy work periods. Is the Mi nister sugges ting that for $2. million in the Youth Program, $2,157,100 that 8,400 jobs of a du ration of 8 weeks each were created? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, if the member would wait till I would get on to the other sector, I will explain how the other jobs were created , and again just to put the record strai ght, in 1978 it was averag ing 8.6 weeks per job, and in 1980 it was averag ing 10.6 weeks per job under this precise program. The other averages are better and we'll get to them in time. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 4. (a) - pass - the Member for Ru pertsland. MR.

BOSTROM: While we're still on this program, I'd ask the Mi nister why he has reduced the program this year from what was an expenditure of $4.2 million according to his annual report to a proposed expenditure in the 1981- 82 fis cal year of $2.9 million? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, what we have done every year is come in about $3. million. The Memb er for Ru pertsland was the Mini ster responsible for Renewal Resources at one time and he knows how he handled his Forestry Protect ion, but I do a similar thing with this, have never made any qualms about it.

We come in at a good figure, and if I need any more - the member will remember last year I went back to Cabinet for two $1 million special orders and I think, if I recall right, either the Member for Rupe rtsland or somebody else asked me about tho se precise things last year in the House in question period. We have started out generally in the neighbourhood of $3 million. If the th ing works well and takes off, fine. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (4)(a) - pass the Honourable Member for Rup ertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Ch airman, the Min ister ind ic ates in his Annual Repo rt that to ensure program objectives were being met, a monitoring function was conducted in addition to the normal program audit, and a su rvey was also conducted. Can the Mi nis ter ind icate if there was a report on thi s survey and if such report would be available to members? MR. MacMAS TER: Mr. Chairman, the same question was asked last year. The same answer was given. The answer was that at the end of the fiscal year when all facts and figures are in and the report is ready, I will forward it to the members opposite, we will make it public.

I gi ve him th e same commitment this year. We fulfilled our promise last year. I intend to fulfill the promise again this year; that will be made public. MR. BOSTROM: Can the Mini ster ind icate if there have been any changes in the gu idelines of the 1376

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 monitoring pr ocess since the first year of this program when it was made aware to the Minister that the Cons ervative Party of Manitoba were eligible for grants under this program? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I mentioned to the member th at over 100 appl icat ions were th rown out this year. Last year, I can 't tell you whether there was 15 or 20, and I suspect in the first year there was none. That in itself ind icates that there's a fair amount of screening taking place.

In addition to that, we have people who are trav elling around spot-checking just to make sure that the thing is running well. We think when we have finished our analysis of it this year, that it will be very very complete and very satisfactory to all people who wish to observe it. MR. BOSTROM: Can the Min ister indi cate in the monitoring function that his department carries out, and the spot-checks that are carried out by his staff, if they found any unusual uses of the funds or any cases where the department had to take action to recover funds? MR.

MacMASTER: There's some wher e in the neig hbour hood of 25 or 30 th at we are giving specific attention to this year, and that's all I can say at the moment. We are auditing them very thoroughly. MR. BOSTROM: Is the Mini ster saying tha t no action has been taken to this point, that a simple audit is being done? MR. MacMASTER: Not a simple audit, a very th orough audit to see tha t the pr ogram wasn 't abused. MR.

BOSTROM: I have a question with respect to the admini stration of the program and that is, what sort of monitoring procedure is established to ensure that each job that is created is really a new job and not simply a job which is already in place which an employer is making an application to get a subsidy for? MR. MacMASTER: That's exactly the answer that I gave to the Member for Bu rrows; that we review the appli cations as th oroughly as possible. We spot­ check them throughout the province in the course of the period of time, and if there are any questionable ones, we audit them, very very thoroughly. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHA K: Mr. Chairman, I would think th at another criterion which one could apply to measure the effectiveness of programs of this type would be to, I sup pose on a region by region basis, if it's possi ble to do some sort of an evaluation of say the av erage income on a per family basis or wh atever, the numb er of stu dents unemplo yed seeking employment for the summer holida ys and the number that were employed.

For example, you might have one region where the average income per family let's say is $1 5,000, and you have 2, 000 students looking for work, and within that region you find 2,000 jobs. okay, so every student gets a job. Let's assume that it is a ten-week job for the bulk of the summer months. In another region, it might be lnterlake, it might be another region in Manitoba. it might be No rthern Ma nitoba, you might have a region where the average income per family is half of that, $7,500, and there too you ha ve 2,000 students, bui within that region only half the students get jobs.

Then 1 think the Mini ster und erstands the point I'm trying to make.

So then it raises the question as to whether the program really is effective, is really doing what one would hope it would do - assist that student who is in the greatest need of assistance, because all it is doing is providing jobs to students who perhaps are in a position to find ways and means of financing their education by other means, but at the same time it's leaving a large block of students in an area wher e the average income is lower, wher e the opportunity just isn't there for the families to earn the same income, and those kids in that area just aren't given the job opportunities.

Has the Mini ster done that type of a comparison, say comparing the lnterlake with WestMan, comparing Parklands with another, comparing NorMan with another, and so forth, so we can get some idea as to whether this program really is benefiting the students in those areas that are in greatest need of benefit of this kind; whatever benefit there is to be accrued from it? MR. MacMASTER: The report that we filed for 19 79 showed precisely that; the num bers in the di fferent regions of the province.

Parkland 400 - I'm just using round figures - Sout hwest 600, lnterlake 400, Southw est close to 300, North Central over 15 0, Winnip eg was 1, 200 , South Central was 350, and the far northern side was 12 0. That was tabled last year, that report. MR. HANUSCHAK: That's the number of jobs; is that correct? Would the Mini ster know how many students in each of th ose areas, or people, because it's not necessarily students because he's talking about age 16 to 24 category I believe? MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR.

HANUSC HAK: Does he have num bers tha t would indicate how many still remained unemployed, and then we could get some comparison? In other words whether this program provided jobs for 50 percent, 60 percent, 80 or whatever. MR. MacMASTER: We don't have those precise figures. We have the figu res that were involved in this particular program. When we get on into the other programs you will find the figures that were inv olved in tho se programs, totalling 13 ,000 and some odd. You will also find hundreds, thousands, I don't know, of young people who just thems elves get out and get jobs.

They don't involve themselves with any of these types of programs at all. You have large companies, I kno w lnco, HB and S, Sherritt-Gordon, take on, I'm just guessing, 200, 300, 400 students during the course of the summer. You ha ve other major employers who take on specifically employees' chil dren dur ing the course of su mmer; there's a whole host of things that's going on. I think, and I don't know the details, that the Federal Government 1377

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 in fact has some type of youth program going on too. So you get down somewhere some day to the figure, I suppose, of those who claimed that there was no job ava ilable anywhere at all and I don't know what that figure is. I'm just not sure how you would ever determine what that figure is. MR. HANUSCHAK: The reason why I asked that question, Mr .

Chairman, is the 13,000 figure of the 16 to 24 age group, that accounts for less then 10 percent of the population of 16 to 24 and I'm just speaking off the top of my head in relating that to school enrolment on a year-by-year basis; I would suspect tha t there's something in the order of about 20,000 persons per year in Manitoba. lt mus t be that. There are a million people in Manitoba. The school enrolment is in the order of a qua rter million, so you're looking at about 20,000 per year, roughly. So 13 ,000 really isn't that high a percentage of that age group.

Now granted, from 16 to 24, a large percentage of them are still in schools; 16 , 17, 18 , most of them are still in high school, others are at un iversity. But it still does leave a number of unan swered questions as to the effectiveness of this program in terms of mee ting the employment needs of the people within that age range. MR. MacMASTER: Mr . Chairman, I don't like comparing years by years but I suspect, and if the member really wants, I'll try and find the number in '75-76 when his government created 5,000.

If he wishes , I'll try and find the number of youth 16 to 24 in that age group in that particular year and we'll compare it with the number tha t were in the year 19 80 when there was 13 ,800. What we do have for his interest, and I think it's extremely interesting for all Committee members, in May, there's May, June, July, August, Sept ember, October, we took the num ber of youth; we took the unemployment rate and we worked it out as to what the variety of programs that are in place, did to the unemployment rate in that youth age group. Now am I clear in what we did, to see if we had an impa ct.

You know when your monthly statistics come out, where you're at in the 16 to 24 year age group. So here's what happened in May of 19 79 and this was filed too, but just so we have an idea of what we're doing. In May of 19 79, and this is only the Pr ivate Youth Program , the unem ployment rate drop ped by .4 in that age group, and while that could be for a variety of reasons, you don't feel super good if it goes down .4, but it's certainly better than going up.

In June the unemployment rate in that age group went down 1. 5 percent, pretty significant you know, and this is just this Private Sector Youth Program that we're relating it to. In July, the unemp loyment rate went down by 2.3; in August - and this is during your peak months - it went down 2.4; and in September it was 1. 3 ancj in October where all your youth programs were going out, it was .2. So I suggest to the member, there is absolutely no question that something had a pretty good effect, this program, and that's the figur es for this program. We h&ve the other 8,000 in the other programs.

You have young people that are out hustling around getting thems elves jobs . Mr.

Chairman, there's absolutely no question tha t it had a great effect and if the member wants sometime at his leisure, to sit down and I'm not being sarcastic with his element of intelligence, I'm just simply saying those charts are some time s di fficult to relate to I'll show him month by month when thEl programs were coming in, what happened, and the picture is there as clear as helL it's difficult just to sit around and th row figu res at each other but if you had the charts in front of you, you would see what the youth programs are doing, there is just absolutely no question.

During your days if your people had wanted to research that sort of thing, you would have seen a decline too because there was an effect; you people couldn't employ one way or another 5,300 or 5,400 young people without having an effect on the unemployment rate. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (4)(a) - pass - the Member for Bu rrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman, I thank the Min ister for his offer and I will take him up on it when it's convenient for him and me and do that type of an analysis.

Has the Mi nister been able to obtain - now we're looking at the 16 to 24 age group so obviously we're looking, not only at the high school or the un iversity student who is seeking sum mer emp loyment in order to make his contribution towards the financing of his education, but we' re also looking at young people on the threshold of entering into the labour force on a full­ time basis - ha s the Mi ni ster been able to determine whether this program has had any success in es tablishing young people in jobs under this program that ultima tely led to full-time employment? MR.

MacMASTER: In 19 79, and we'll give you the figures again for 19 80, but in 19 79 members of the Opposition, in fact two or th ree of them personally came to me in the hal lways and said to me, it's good - they did n't want to say that in the Legislature and I understand that - it was about 12 percent retained employment during a 19 79 analysis of the program.

This year if it's 10 percent, 11 percent, 12 percent, so that very factor that the Member for Burrows is talking about, is a pretty key thing because all young people aren't going back to schooL Some choose for a whole host of reasons, not to continue their educa tion. I ha ve a daughter at home that's graduating this year from high school who has no intentions of going back to school next year. She just doesn't know what the hell she wants to be. Some day I hope she does go back and get something else. So there are lots of young people who, at that stage, do not intend ....

The other beautiful part about the whole damn thing is that young people going into reasonably good sort of jobs, they're getting into meaningful sort of jobs, just the spirit of the young people being involved, a lot of employers who weren't necessarily going to take on any young people but because of some assistance, and let's be honest about it, do, and they find damn it all, those young people are pretty good for busi ness. and they keep them on. That, I think, is the real beauty of the whole thi ng. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (4)(a) - pass; (4)(b) - pass; 3. (e)( 1 )(a) - pass - the Mem ber for Rupertsland. 1378

Thursday, 5 March, 198 1 Excuse me, the Honourable Min ister. MR. MacMASTER: I'v e got my opening remarks, Mr. Chairman. The Emplo yment and Youth Services Branch is primarily res ponsible for in crea sing employment opp ortuniti es for youth by dev eloping and implementing employment oriented programs and placement activities. As well, the branch increases the effectiveness and efficiency of its pr ograms through the de velop ment of interlin kages with relevant organizations and agencies.

The Emp loyment and Youth Services Branch provides an adminis trat ive base for a wide range of major programs and services. 1. The Em ployment Services Office is a centralized student summer employment registration and referral service for un iversity, community college and high school students. it is antici pated that it will also offer a placement service for high school students seeking part-time employment during the school year.

The Man power division southern region field unit is responsible for the del ivery of all programs and services offered by the Man power Division of the department to the population of Southern Manitoba. STEP-in- go vernment and northern sum mer education are summer employment programs that provide a meaningful career-rela ted work experience for students. Hir e-a-Student Job Centre Programs provides a summer job pla cement and referral service for youth in rural and northern commun ities in the province. 5.

Volu nteers in the Public Service Program es tabl ishes volunt eer com ponents in sele cted provincial departments and agenc ies wh ich supple ment and improve the quality of their services; and the Manitoba-Northlands Travel Program awards travel grants to school groups from northern and remote commu nitie s to pr ovide them with an educational view of other Manitoba locations. Last year there were 23; this year there's 23. No w tha t is more lik e wha t the Memb er for Burrows wanted, Mr. Chairman.

He wanted an overall youth employment variety of programs and they are all in here except for the one that we've talked about, the Private Sector Youth Program. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minis ter ind icated when we got to this

section that he would explain the statistics with respect to the number of jobs created and the nu mber of man weeks, or person weeks or whatever. MR. MacMASTER: The Emplo yment Services office placed 1,984 students in jobs within the Provincial Government. Of these. 942 were in projects funded by STEP in Government; the remaining 1,042 were in jobs where funds were contained in the budgets of individual departments; so there were 1,984 jobs within government. The High School Part-time Placement Program, we hav en't even got into that yet.

The Hire-A-Student Job Centre Program; thi s is where we have 42 job centres scattered throughout the entire Province of Manitoba. it employed 42 youths as managers of rural and northern job centres. The program found - and these are facts the program found jobs for 6.29 1 youth; 4,733 were full time, and 1,558 were part time; found them all within the private sector. The member may be aware that we have these jobs centres scattered over the province. Maybe I could get a list of where they are.

The No rthern Summ er Education Pr ogram employed 30 youths who planned and implemented an education recreation program for 21 9 childr en from nort he rn commu nitie s. Of the 30 youth employed, 6 were northern youths over 16 years of age who participa ted in a couns ellor-i n- tr aining component. The Northern Youth Corps had 303 jobs, plus 36 youth supervisors. I haven't added them all up but they sure as heck better come up to the figure I gave you. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I think to a certain extent the Mi nister then was comparing apples and oranges when we was saying that for the $6,000 he seemed to be suggesting that the government had employed or created dir ectly 8,400 jobs in addition to the 5,400 that were through the Private Youth Pla cement Program. MR. MacMASTER: There is nothing misleading abou t what I sai d. I said thr ough our pr ograms 13,800, if that's the number, through our assistance tho se numb er of jobs were one way or another located and young people were working through our efforts.

I did n't say we paid them all; in fact, we deba ted whether the NDP's phi losophy of paying them full salaries was as good as other efforts that could take place for lesser money. I thought we had sort of agr eed, I didn't see the Member for Rupertsland objecting, when I said the objective is to employ and get employed as many youth within the province as possible for a reasonable price. That's what it's all about and it doesn't matter what party is in power tha t should be their objective.

Through these wide variety of ways and assistance in co­ ordinating our efforts in go ver nment, out government, private sector, lining them up, putting employers together with employees, the whole host of programs that we were involved in, we created 13,800 jobs. MR. BOSTROM: Mr . Chairman, there is certainly a dif ference between assisting a student in finding a job and creating a job.

I understand the Min ister's statistics now, and I still say that he's comparing appl es and oranges when he compares the two figur es because the calculations that were done, the statistics that were used to determine the number of jobs created through the government programs in the years 1976-77 and so on, were simply to determine th ose jobs that were created di rectly and there were not additional things added in like the Min ister is adding in here. In fact, Mr .

Speaker, I would like to ask the Mi ni ster, with respect to the Youth and Student Emplo yment Program, in particular, how many jobs were created and ho w many work weeks were created for the amount of money that was bud geted last year of $2 million. MR. MacMAS TER: Through the entire set of programs that we have talked about, and I haven't broken the figure up, but it seems we're talking about round figu res, it was 8,000 some odd thr ough the other $2 million worth of efforts. Mr. Chairman, we are not comparing apples and oranges un less you want me to break down the 1379

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 $5,000 figure that you had in 1976-77, and please believe me, it was every type of variety of program that you people could put in place, or chose to put in place; assistance, pay ing, lining them up, whatever you did, that was the total program that you took credit for in all ways; and rightly so. it's the same nu mber that I am saying th at my staff are responsible for 13 ,845 people being employed. You people were responsible in 1976-77 for 5,300, and that in cluded the di fferent ways you did it put together and the di fferent ways that we did it. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Mi nister could provide us with copies of his statistics and the method of calculating the statistics because I believe that there are certainly different ways of using these, and I think that the Mi nister may be employing the best advantage for hims elf of course in the way he's presenting them. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I assure the member, seeing that he's asked the question, that I will break down how the NDP took credit in 1976-77 for 5,318; I will break that down for him and get to him, certainly not within the next half hour.

I have broken down for him how we were responsible, one way or another for 13 ,845; and I'm just asking him to take my word for it, that their 5,300 in 1976 was done in every type of conceivable method that you felt appropr iate at that time. So it's not apples and oranges. You can pick out of your 5,300 a 2,000 block or a 1, 000 block, or a 500 or a 600, but all added together that's the number of jobs. MR. BOSTROM: Mr .

Chairman, with respect to the numb er of work weeks, I think the Mi nis ter was suggesting, in his earlier comments, that the number of work weeks per student he has statistics on and they were apparently better than the ones he had given us before, I wonder if he could give us some indication, from the statistics he has in front of him for this category of job finding for students, how many work weeks were made avai lable to students through this process and, at the same time, how the statistics he is using were calculated? MR.

MacMASTER: The only stats that we have on the other programs, and I gave the member the one on the Private Sector Youth Program, from 8.6 to 9.6 to 10.6 , that one I gave. The 1, 984 students within government averaged 14 weeks; that's approxima tely 2,000 young people that had 14 weeks. The 30 youth in the north who were involved with the Northern Summer Education Program, they worked 16 weeks.

The only one I don't have, and it would be very difficult to nail it down, is the Hire-A-Student Job Centre Program which emp loyed - the 42 youths that we employed as managers certainly worked for the entire season - but of the 6,2 9 1 that they placed, put together with employers, I haven't got that figure. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, was there any effort made to obtain that figure, to see if these students did in fact work the full sum mer at the jobs that were found for them, or are they short-term tempcrary jobs, or what were they? MR. MacMASTER: We're working at getting those figures.

That's the only one I haven't got. I had said to the member that I would .give him an idea, and I don't think he wants all 42 of the centres but I will give him an idea of where the job centres were. In the lnterlake at Selkirk, Arborg, Ashern, Gi mli, Ston ewall, Lundar, Teu lon, Beau sejour, Lac du Bonnet. The South Centr e was Morden, Carman, Treherne, Pilot Mound, Altona, Winkler, Morris. In the South West it was Brandon, Russell, Hami ota, Mi nnedosa, Virden, Melita. Deloraine, Beausejour, Killa rney, Glenboro, Eriksdale, and I might as well finish them.

In the Parklands there was Da up hin, Swan River, Winnip egosis, Roblin, Gilbert Plains, Ste. Rose du Lac; in South West there was Steinbach, Ste. Anne, St. Pierre; in the North Central there was Portage la Prairie, Gla dstone, Neepawa; and in the north there was Thompson, Lynn Lake and The Pas. That's 42 centres, the job cent res that we established throughout the province. MR. BOSTROM: Perhaps the Mini ster answered this question when he was on an earlier part of his Estimates, but to what extent did these programs under this

section relate to students in remote communiti es? MR. MacMASTER: We di scu ssed the No rthern Youth Corps, that's the program I think precisely he's talking about. I'm guessing last year there was 288 and 26 youth supervisors; this year there was 303 and 36 youth supervisors. MR. BOSTROM: The Mi nister is now referring to the previous program is he? MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland, further questions. MR. BOSTROM: Not on this section. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (1) (a) - pass; (1 )(

b) pass; 3.(e)(2) pass; 3.(e)(3)(

a) pass; 3.(e)(3)(b) - pass; 3.(f)(1) - the Honourable Mini ster. MR. MacMASTER: The New Career s Branch provides training and job placement with employers in the private sector, in government departments, and in pub licly funded agencies. Trainees are unskil led persons who have difficulty in getting and maintaining employment; they are recruited from the geographical area where the job is located. The training agency employers are committed to hire the trainees upon successful completion of the program.

That was a very important change that we made; we wanted firm commitment that people just aren 't going to take New Careers without guaranteeing employment. Job s trained for are mainly a para­ professional or technical nature; the length of the training is 6 months to 2 years; academic upgrading is di rected to the needs of the job and the requirements of the employer. Last year we set up some new procedur es for the New Careers Branch; these procedures have been implemented and are working well. The procedur es include a percentage split between private, pu blicly funde d and government departmental employers.

Funds for these th ree sou rces of employing bodies ha ve been divided approxi mately one-third ea ch. 1380

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 This ratio responds to and reflects the applications received by the branch. We will continue to allow for flexibility in order to be able to respond to requests from employers. A review committee consisting of all manpo wer division dir ectors has been established. This board reviews proposals and makes reco mmendations to the Assistant Deputy Mini ster for appr oval of new projects. Im plementation or orientation workshops for supervisors of eventual employing organizations has proven successful and this will continue. This year we began a new program to train retail store managers.

This has met with a high degree of success, as all trainees are still active in place and the training employers are more than satisfied with the progress. Consideration is now being given to greatly expand this program into 19 81- 82. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (f)

(1) Rupertsland. the Member for MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, just a couple of comments on this program. The general impression I have is that the Provincial Government has, although they've continued this program , they tend to not follow or pursue the program as vigorously as the previous government did; and it was unfortuna te, the first year in which the government was in power they saw fit to terminate a number of the people who were training under the program. There is still quite a lot of underlying resentment, I might point out to the Min ister, in many communities to this government because of that action.

With respect to the program concept itself, I believe it's an excellent concept and one which should have been built on with somewhat more enthusiasm than this government has chosen to follow.

The New Careers concept 1 believe is one which, as I've said before in this Legislature, should be used in other types of training pr ograms relating to persons that are in di sadvantaged positions in society. lt seems to be ideally suited to provide di sadvanta ged persons, someone who has had difficulty obtaining employment, with the sort of trai ning which appears to be on-the-job type of concept which seems to appeal to people because it gives them a specific target to work towards.

They know exactly what kind of job they will be moving into when they complete the training, and it appears to gi ve them more of an incentive, I believe, in cont inuing through to comp letion of the training program. I'm glad to see that the Min ister has taken the opportunity to do a follow-up survey of New Careers graduates. I wonder if the Min ister could ind icate to us if a report has been prepared on this, and if so if he could make this report available to the members. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Rupertsland wasn't here when I handed out well, the Mem ber for Chur ch ill can tell me whether it was 8, 9, 10 , 11 or 12, whatever it was - reports that we had final ized and that precisely was one I said we hadn't finalized, along with the private sector and two or th ree others. When that survey is completed and the reports are completed, the member has my assurance he'll get a copy. MR. BOSTROM: Could the Minis ter perhaps ind icate what is the status of the su rvey at this point? Is it just in the process or is the report being put up in draft form? MR.

MacMASTER: Data is being collected, it will have to analyzed, it will have to be put together, it will be another two to th ree months. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, beyond the brief introduction which the Mini ster provided to us, I wonder if he could ind icate what his attitude is towards the continuation of this program and/or the potential expansion of the program.

I notice that over the years it's received rather token attention and some token incr eases without any real effort to make it the kind of expanded program that it probably should be; in fact, I would recommend it be a greatly expanded program because I believe it has worked well and is a concept that, because it has worked well, should be built upon and used to a greater advantage in providing opportunity to people that could util ize the opportun ity.

There are many many people in Manitoba that could util ize a program like th is, there are many many opportunities even within the government that have not yet been explored or foll owed up by this go vern ment in terms of identifying positions that could be filled by people that could be trained through a program like this. I notice that they have identified a program outside of the government, and that is in co-operation with the Hu dson's Bay Company to tr ain Na ti ve northerners in retail store management, and I think thi s is a good addition to the program and it's one I'm hopeful will work.

I would like the Mi nister to comment on what his experience with it has been so far, because certainly the experience of Native northerners in Northern Manitoba is that the Hudson's Bay Company has not, over the years, really pr ovided th em with the opportunity to move into positions of management within their operations, and as recently as the last few years, I'v e met people in Northern Mani toba working for the Hudson's Bay Company that have been recruited in Scotland.

Not to say that there is any thin g wrong with people moving to Canada and working in remote locations for the Huds on 's Bay Com pany, but it seems rather ir onic that the Hu d son's Bay Company, after 300 years in the north, has not been able to establish a relationship and a pr ogram th at would pr ovide the op portu nit y for Native northerners to move into their operation and have the same kind of opportunities as they would offer to people from other countries. So I would ask the Mi nister if he could comment on the success to date of that particular project with in the New Careers Program. MR.

MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we're reasonably pleased with the project, it's been runnin g about seven months. There are 14 people inv olved; we have not had a drop-out, which in itself tells a bit of a story; nine of the people are inv olved with the Bay and five are in co-ops and band stores. But it's all under the one program and I agree in part with what the Mem ber for Ru pertsland says, why the hell weren't those stores in the north looking at northern people to run their own stores over these many many years.

The Mem ber for Ru pertsland and myself could sit down for hours and talk about the destruction of 1381

Thursday, 5 March, 19 81 stores, the frustration with stores, the abuse of merchandis e and the frustr ation of people in communities, we could spend hours talking about that because of the management of the stores. We won't get into those details now but the Member for Ru pertsland knows what I'm talking about. He's been up in that country too many years not to know. So, is it a good move? You bet it's a good move. And is it long overdue? You betcha, ther e's no question about that. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I would further like to hear the Mi nister's comments on the program in general, because I believe that as I was saying, the New Careers Program can pr ovide valuable opportunities to northern people and it's one which should be expanded. Generally, and parti cula rly with respect to Nativ e people in Northern Manitoba, I think that this program can provide some valuable opportunities.

The concept of training involved here seems to app eal to th e Nat ive people who ha ve worked through the program , and many of them I believe, will show up in the survey of the 326 New Careers graduates which the department is surve ying at this time. it would be interest ing to see their comments on their experiences as a result of having moved through this program and moved on to permanent employment. I might add tha t this is probably the one opportunity in their life they had to really get a chance to move into permanent employment.

Many of them were not young people that I'm aware of that were in the progr am, and this was a really unique opportunity for them. I would say that this program, Mr.

Chairman, is one which we've often pointed to as one which the govern ment should be using as a gu id elin e in dev eloping new and inno vative progr ams with respect to Native employment in particular. it's one perhaps that the Minis ter could take some hints from in terms of his par ticip at ion in the Cabinet discussions that relate to the inner core area of Winni peg, and when and if that program ever gets off the ground and they'r e relating programs for people in that area to move into tr aining op por tuni ties because the concept here is a workable concept, it's one which has proven itself now over the years that it's been in operat ion, and I would think it would be one that could be plugged in very effectively into that kind of a situation where you're dealing with much the same people that the program has been deal ing with so far and you're really working with pe rhaps as disadvantaged a group as you would find in any remote Northern community.

Many of the people have moved from the remote northern communities to the inner core, inner city area of Winnipeg, looking for opportunities and have been frustrated in their attempts and end up on Unemployment or welfare or whatever. This kind of a program could be used very effectively there, I think. So I would ask the Mi nis ter if he's ha d any opportunity to look at expansion of this program in that respect - I notice he was nodding his head when I mentioned that - and if he could comment on how he would see this program working in that area. MR.

MacMASTER: As we talke d about the Selkirk Training Pla nt, I think the pos sibili ti es and the ph ilosophy can be app lied, and I don't know precisely how we'll end up but the phi losophies can certainly be applie d to the inner city core area, I would suspect. it's go ing to be inte resting to see the final assess ment of this program. I think that we'll find simi larities to what the Member for Rupe rtsland has said, that by and large there are a lot of people that are pretty happy tha t th ey were gi ven this opportu nity.

We're involving more of the departments or the employers now in the basic beginning and on the way through the program than ever was the case before and I said to the member, a·nd we mean it, that we want a gua rantee of a job when they're finished. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I just notic ed in the write-up on this program in the report from the Minis ter's office that in their follow-up survey the ini tial in dication was that 76.6 percent of all graduates were employed, so that's a pretty good success rate. The other thing, Mr. Chairman, is with respect to progra ms of this natur e.

I must expr ess my disappointment in thi s govern ment for not ha ving ha d the creat ivity or whatever, to produce any programs of their own along these lines. Over the eigh t years of the New Democr atic Party government, there were many attempts to develop in novat ive programs of trai ning or educa t ional nature.

I think that some of them were successfu l, as this one obviously is, some of them were not so successf ul, but at least there were attempts made by the government of the day to move into areas that were untried and to develop new and in novative progr ams. it's dis ap pointing to me, one who is concerned with people having an opportunity and par ticula rly th ose disadvantaged persons in our society, that what I'm conc erned with them having an oppor tunit y much like the New Careers Program would offer, that this government has not seen fit in any way to uti lize the services of their public servants or to utili ze their own creat ivity in developing new and inn ovative programs to assist people that are disadvantaged in our society.

They seem to have taken the ones that we had developed, the good ones - some of the good ones - and they've carried them on in a token way, without any real expansion or any real vigour in pursuing them and moving them along. I'm disappoi nte d in this Mi n is ter and I'm disappoin ted in the government, that they haven'd seen fit to try any thing new and to make any new strides in terms of new programs to assist people.

I notice that the Minis ter did refer to his hire-a-student program und er the previous section, which you know is a good idea and I commend the Min ister for trying something like that, but that is really only a very simple thing to set up - Job centres - where people go and apply and you assist them to find jobs. That concept has been around for many years. The Canada Em ployment Centre's are a case in point. I mean you have that kind of a concept in place. The New Careers Program was a new concept.

Now I think that the government should have been able, in the three years that they've been in power so far, they should have been able to come up with at 1382

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 least one new idea in terms of training, in terms of education, in terms of prov iding opportunities to dis advantaged persons in our society and I haven't seen that. I just have not seen that in any of the government departments and I have not seen it in this Min ister's department, whether it be in Labour and Man power or in his previous departments of Renewable Resources and Northern Affairs.

There have been essentially no new initia tives and that is something which I believe people in Manitoba have noticed; people besides myself have noticed that this is not a crus ading, in novativ e , pw gr essive Govern ment. It's a stand pat govern ment. It's a government that's practised restraint and continues to practise restraint, particularly in those areas that relate to the most di sadvantaged gr oups in our society. I might say to their credit, they don't seem to be practising restraint to the same vicious extent that the new President of the United States seem to be indicating he's moving in. But, Mr.

Chairman, I don't think it's to their credit at all, that they haven' taken any new steps. That is not commendable on this government and it certa inly is something which is necessary in Manitoba. All you have to do is look around. There is some effort being made now in the area of the inner city of Winnipeg, but that is not an in it ia ti ve of the Prog ressiv e Cons ervative Government of Manitoba; it's one in which they have been dr agged into by efforts of the Federal Government it appears and to a lesser extent the Ci ty of Winnip eg .

The Mu nicipal and Provincial Governments in Manitoba appear to be dragged in, kicking and scre aming into this inner core ini tiative. Now maybe this Min ister personally has somewhat more concern over this area than other Minis ters, but for one reason or another he hasn't been able to persuade his government to do anything about those concerns, if he does have those concerns and, Mr. Chairman, th at is a dis appointment.

I think it's obvious from my point of view, that if there are going to be any new and in novative things done in terms of educa tion, in terms of tr ai ning, in terms of opportunities for di sadvantaged persons in this province, it's going to have to be done by another government because this go ve rnment appears unwilling to do anything about those problems. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)( 1) - pass; 3.(f)(2) - pass; 3. (f)(3)(a) - pass; 3. (f) (3)(b) - pass ; 3.( f)(3) (c) - pass ; 3. (f) - pass ; 3. (g) (1) - the Honourable Mi nis ter. MR.

MacMASTER: The Career Resou rce Centres: The Manp ower Division of my department became actively inv olved in the field of career planning over the past year. A new branch was established which set up an operative network of Career Resource Centres in the Province. The first centre was pi lote d in Thompson, Manitoba with Northlands cost-sharing. The services of professional counsellors and the resource centre material extend throughout the region. The services have been so readilty accepted that an additional counsel lor has been hir ed six months ahead of

schedule to keep up with demand. Additional centres are budgeted for expansion into the Brandon, Dauphin and in the central location in the southwest to provide regionaliza tion, regional ized del ivery. The pol icy we are following calls for a program that st imula tes career awareness and combines informational material with career planning and counselling. Our objective is to develop a full range of career programs for deli very from strateg ically located Career Resource Centres. The service we provide is not a duplic ation of any other program whether Provincial or Federal.

It is very carefully structured to complement other programs now in place and to bridge gaps where they exist. In 1981 there were two staff man years in this program area. We are requesting 11 staff man years in 19 81- 82, an increase of nine. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Since there is such a large in crease in the number of staff, perhaps the Min ister could be more specific as to the duties of the staff which exists now and the anticipa ted duties of the new staff. MR.

MacMASTER: There are three SMYs for the proposed Brandon Centre, a co-ordinator, a career counsellor and a career resource technician; two SMYs for the proposed South Central Area, a co­ ordina tor and a career counsellor; three SMYs for the proposed Dauphin centre, a co-o rdi nator, a career counsellor and a career resource technician. MR. COWAN: Perhaps I can read those back to the Minis ter and make certain that I have them correctly, there's thr ee for Brandon, two for the south central area, three for Dauphin. MR. MacMASTER: And one for Winnipeg.

I forgot the first one I had my hand on, a career resource technician for Winnipeg. MR. COWAN: That's one for Winn ipeg for a total of nine and tha t means that th ere'd be the same number in Thompson. I'll just have to go back to my notes for one moment here, Mr. Chairman, because I think I recall during the Mini ster's opening remarks, that he said that they were going to be hiring another one in Thompson, six months ahead of schedule. Did I misunderstand the Min ister? MR. MacMASTER: We already have. I said that in these opening remarks that an additional one has been hired for Thompson. MR.

COWAN: An additional one has been hi red for Thompson. So the Minis ter also ind icated that in his opening remarks as well. I just wanted to check on that. The two that are in Thompson now, is that the full complement for the Thompson Resource Centre? MR. MacMASTER: Three, Mr. Chairman. MR. COWAN: Okay, I think I have the arithmetic right now, although I'm not cer tain. That means there's a total altogether of 12 SM Ys in this branch. Mr. Chairman, the reason I ask that is there's a discrepancy.

Numb er 11 was given to us in the first place and now my addition adds up to 12 , so I'd just like to find out wherein lies the problem. 1383

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 MR. MacMASTER: There is one assigned presently to the Fort Garry one. What happened, the Federal Government started that with the school division and got it started then that was the end of it. lt was so well received in that area that they requested us to give them some assistance. lt started out on a part­ time basis and it's worked into a full-time position. MR. COWAN: That full-time position is funded by the Provincial Government, so in fact there are 12 SMYs. Is that correct? MR. MacMASTER: Thir teen.

Three in Thompson, one in Fort Garry, an additional one for Winnip eg, three for Brandon, two for the south central area and three for Dau phin. MR. COWAN: Now we have them all located. Okay, it adds up to 13. MR. MacMASTER: I think I said that three times, all di fferent. MR. COWAN: Either that or I heard it th ree times all different, it could be one or the other, this being the last item after a long Estima tes. Perhaps the Mi nis ter can ind icate wha t other funding is being provided for the development of these centres.

We know in the one instance, in Fort Garry there was Federal funding; in Thompson it was Northlands Agreement. Is there other Federal money in the Brandon, the south central area, the Dau phin and the Winnip eg Career Resource Centres? MR. MacMASTER: We're negotiating for 50 percent at Da uphin. We would like to see the Feds more involved in Brandon and Winnip eg. Now my interpr etation of the word "like" means for the edification of the Member for Churchill, it means th at I ha ven't gi ven up on trying to get Federal participation in those other programs.

The word "negotiate" means that I'm into it and there's a possibility; I hav en't reached the negotiating point yet. So don't say next fall when you're talking to me, hell, you didn' t tell me during Estimates that there might ha ve been Federal input. We're saying that I'd like to see that. I haven't thought of the soft spot to go after yet, but that possibility is there. MR. COWAN: We certainly hope that that Federal money is forthcoming, because it always means that the province is then able to do a bit more with the money that they have.

The Mini ster says yes, and I hope he doesn't read back through some of the speeches of his colleagues whe never the Ne w Democratic Party government went after this sort of funding and they said a tax dollar is a tax dollar and it comes from a pocket no matter where it comes from, and it do esn 't ma tter if it's Federal or ProvinciaL I hope he has more support from his colleagues in tho se sorts of negotiations and gaining that type of money than the previous government had, when they were Oppos ition.

But that just shows, and I am certain that it applies to all groups, that Opposition do es ha ve a di fferent pers pectiv e than does government. However, in this case I can assure him that we support him in his end eav ours to try to make Manitoba's funds go fur th er by at tempting to convince or negotiate with the Federal Government, better de als and more financial inv olvement in programs such as this.

I've not had an opportunity yet to read throu gh in detail, the document which the Min ister tabled, and I believe the title was The Thompson Career Resource Centre Needs Assessment As a matter of fact, I have not had the opportunity to get past the title yet, and I wish I had , but unfortunately we've been pretty busy and therefore I'd ask the Mi nister if he can ind icate to us, exactly what assess ment was necessary as per that document which origi nated from his department. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, when you'r e going into something new such as we're going into here, all of society needs to be aware of what you're doing. Hopefully you can get support of all of society.

We were very fortunate; we walked very slow; we dealt with the School Division; we dealt with the companies; we dealt with business; we dealt with labour; we dealt with the native communities; we dealt with the chur ches; we dealt with organizations all over the city and ended up with a Bo ard excellently proportioned in representing virtually all the major organi zations in the City of Thompson. lt took a long time to get that acceptance but I felt it was terribly important.

The school of course does some cou nsel ling; Canada Ma npower does some counse lling; we do, in a variety of di fferent ways, and I didn't want people think ing that we were coming in and saying that they weren't doing welL We thought tha t the concept of wha t we ha d to offer was extremely good; could be complimentary of a good number of other situations. We have found, by and large, if I could just keep it simple, rather than getting too technical about it, it's serving three or four or five, I gu ess, seg ments of society. The outlining areas now, we find Frontier School is very interested.

A lot of people who are into a profession or trade or into a way of life and want to change that there is a substantial int erest from that group. The youth, of course, are very interested, extremely interested .

There's another group and that's women who have been out of the workplace for a good period of time, by choice by and large; families are getting older or financ es are what they are today, they want a little better way of life and want some type of job, part time, full time whatever; aren't very sur e about resume making, aren't sure ab out presenting thems elves, aren't sure of the kinds of op portunities and the type of training they might need, the type of cou rses they might need.

All these groups can be advised on the type of educational requirements; the areas you'd go to get them; the type of pay that might be at the end of the line, particularly when they are talking to young people, there's no sense trying to convince 600 kids in high school in Thompson - can we just use that one as an example that engineering is a great field if. in fact, we know that engi neering is pretty plugged up right now.

Another thing we're finding is that a lot of young people again, when you talk about getting into the trades, a lot of young people know that there's a carpenter, there's a painter, a mechanic and an electricia n but my God there's just so many variations in this technic al age that we're in. My young lad is interested in conserva tion. God, there's 13 84

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 just no end to the type of conservation programs that he can get into. So, that is basically what we've done and where we're at. I guess, busting at the seams is a loose expression but we're busy as heck. We're getting requests to start travelling around thr oughout the North into other communiti es; we're into one of your home towns, Leaf Rapids. Some of the Reserves are starting now to ask us if we would come into their areas. There was a class came down to Thompson, I think it was from Leaf Rapids too.

So, the concept is being accepted which was so terribly terribly important that the base be set and set well. I'm glad it happened as quick as it did, but I have to tell the members of this Comm ittee that I would work another year at it, to make sure that concept was accepted by everybody. I didn't want anybody feeling that we were stepping on their toes, that we were imp osing anything on them.

We wanted them to believe we were there to compliment what everybody was doing, and there are so many agencies that are trying to help people, and that we wouid be of service to people in a very very meaningful helpful way. I have no reservat ions; the Estimates, I guess, signify that; that it's a very successful way to go. We have been complimented by all kinds and groups of people; we haven't had a bit of sarcasm; we haven 't had any flak about it; we haven't had any people criticizing it.

There have been people come in that suggested occasi onally a little better approaches, but it's just a remarkable concept in my viewpoint and an awful lot people deserve a lot of credit. My ADM and the dir ector of it and the staff in Thompson and the people in Thom pson, the School Division in Thompson, the Unions, the companies. It's just gone over tremendously welL MR. COWAN: Well, having had some conversations about the Career Resource Centre with Northeners and obviously not having as many as the Minis ter's had or not having the opportunity to go into as much detail in the program as the Min ister has had.

I do know that it has been generally well accepted. I have not heard negative respon ses in respect to the program or what it is doing_ The concept of course is not a uniqu e concept but it is an imp ortant concept and it is one that I believe government can play an active role in promoting, although I do note that there are areas in the private sector that are trying to promote it as well from the advertising on TV. I think that it is an area where government has a legitimate role and where government can probably provide the best service possible, even better than that of the private sector.

Of course that follows because the structures are there, the government structures are already there, such as the schools and the emp loyment agencies and government can provide a coordin ated approach. So, agai n, it is necessary to commend the Mi nister wher e commendation is deserved , or at least appears to be deserv ed, and in this instance that is the case, I believe, the concept is certainly a good concept.

Without having a great deal of information on the actual operation, I would reserve judgment on that, except to say that I have not heard complaints, and usually if an operation is not functioning to the utmost or is malfunctioning an Opposition ML A is as quick to hear complaints as anyone else. So, I can only ass ume by the la ck of complain ts that the operation is successful and I accept the Mi nister's words at face value; if he bel ieves that to be acc eptable and that he belie ves his approach has been a good approach, then I have no reason to quarrel or di sag ree with that.

We will watch it carefully because we do believe that it is important and we do believe that it can be a valuable tool and can be of great assistance to those persons who wish to enter the labour force.

They may be persons who have been kept out of the labour force by historical or di scriminatory reasons; they may be persons who have been kept out of the labour force because of handicaps; they may be individuals who are entering the labour for ce for the first time because they are coming out of schooL The Min ister ass ur es us that the Ca reer Resou rce Centr e is dealing with all of those different situations and, according to his analysis of it, it seems to be dealing with them very effect ively_ So we wish, or at least I wish, to offer our support to the Min ister in respect to this program and hope that the new areas that are being considered are in fact as successful as the Thompson Centre has appeared to be and hope that the Min ister is successful in convincing the Federal Government of the legitima cy of his request for 50- 50 cost-sharing in respect to the operation of the Centres.

Having said that I think it's a bit too early to comment on any more th an the act ual concept; perhaps at next year's Estimates we can talk about the actual operation in a bit more detail, we will have that data available to us. I hope that in the next year we can be as positive about the operation as we are about the concept but i think it is important that the records show that we believe the efforts in this area have been fruitful efforts and have been efforts that certainly should be successful in the future.

Just one question, or there may be more than one question, the problem is everytime somebody says pass it is a stimuli to me and I have to ask a question just on general principle, but that's okay. I had intended to ask a question and I have it in my notes and I'd forgotten to, but the Min ister ind icates that the operation which is centred in Thompson is meant to serve a larger area and a lot of that larger area is in my own constituency.

I know that there are groups that are coming down to it and there are also groups tha t would lik e to have people from the centre and equipment from the centre come to them; a travelling road show, so to speak.

I would ask the Mi nister if they'r e going to build upon their experience of the past and try to extend that so that this group can ge t into to plac es like Gillam, Churchill, South Indian Lake, and Lynn Lake and I could go thr ough all 20-some tha t are in my constituency_ I don't think that it's necessary except to say that these areas could probably benefit from this program as much as Thompson, just less time would be necessary because they are smaller areas, so that if a travelling program went in for a certain period of time and it was well promoted so that the people were ready for it and willing to accept it; the Mini ster has already acknowledged ___ acceptances; that it could be of great value to those outlying communi ties.

MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we plan on travel ling, we plan on doing it in the same process we went to Thompson. We do not intend to walk into 1385

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 Leaf or Gillam or llford or Puka tawagan or Nelson Hous e and say "H ere we are, we're the answer to your problems". While the desire, for example, in Leaf Rapid is already evident so we plan on doing some more work with them. The desire will come from other communities, and we'll be working with those other communi ties. We may find this time next year that there's more than thr ee staff in Thompson. We may find that we can set up a travelling van.

We may find that in a centre - I'm just using examples - we may find that in Norway Hous e or Cross Lake because of the huge concentration of people you might be able to put a person or two in there to service th ose two. There's many concepts that you might be able to develop from this, keeping in mind that we've got to get our feet on the ground and get it solid and we've got to prove a point; we've got to prove a point that the thing really works and the member is right, a year from now we'll ha ve some stats that says that there are some successes. No question in my mind that it's going to be successfu l. MR.

COW AN: Do choices really talk? MR. MacMASTER: Some time when you 've got time, in fact, while you're in the city, you should maybe drop over to the Fort Garry area, I' ll get you the address and you can wander over there some noon hour and have a look at it and run yourself through it and see what you might ha ve been or what you could ha ve been or where you might ha ve wanted to go or -(In terjection)- or what you may be and you're not sure. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (gX1) - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you. For Hansard, I ha ve to point out that it's choices.

I know they are going to have a very difficult time with that particular word, the Hansard people downstairs. The computer, the choices computer which the Mi nis ter talks about, if it is sim ilar to other computers, I would imagine could be hooked up to remote banks or remote keyboards and screens in other areas through a simple MTS connection, would that be the case? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, it is. MR. COWAN: lt may not be able to talk but I'm certain it could pass the video information through the wires.

Perhaps a suggestion to the Minis ter and I know he doesn't want to overextend this program right in the beginning but something to look toward and investigate and maybe talk about in the next Estima tes is putting a com puter terminal in the di fferent schools in the different communi ties, and tying the program together that way and then as you send your people around there would be something before and after them to support their efforts.

And again it's just a suggestion for perhaps a review during the next Estimates, but with the technology available, it would appear to be beneficial to utilize it to our utmost and computer terminals and telephone line conn ections are a very in ex pensiv e way of transmitting data, once you ha ve your main computer bank. which you appear to do with the choicest computer. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: {g)(1) - pass; (g)(2) the Member for Chur ch ill. MR. COWAN: As well on this and the others, missed the Other Expenditures. MR. MacMASTER: I'll get that. MR. COWAN: Thanks. MR.

MacMASTER: No, we forwarded tho se Other Expenditur es to the member so that's (g)(2). MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (g)(2) - pass; (g)(3)(a) - pass; (gX3)(b) - pass; (gX3)(c) - pass; (g) - pass; 3. pass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $9,654,300 for Labour and Manpo wer pass. 4. Acquisiti on/Construction of Physical Assets - pass - th e Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr .

Chairman, just briefly if the Minis ter could indic ate to us this area and why there is less than last year and whether last year's was all spent or no t and then I would sugg est if it's agreeable that we call it a night for tonight. MR. MacMASTER: The difference, Mr. Chairman, is your Manitoba Special Muni cipal Loans Fund. That program has come to an end. We ha ve carried forth $7,700 this year to complete about three di fferent ext ensions.

Th ere has been an extens ion, an ext ensio n, an extension, and some of th e communi ties couldn't make up their mind whether they wanted it at one end of the arena or the other end of the community hall, and in fairness to them we have carried over $7,700.00. That air compressor program that we had in place, we are planning on providing th ree more of them again this year for the mutual aid districts for the firefighters and we need $45,000 for training equipment for the Thompson firefighting training centre. MR. FOX: I thank athe Mi nister for that.

We can pass this item, and then I would, if the Min ister is agreea ble, suggest that committee rise and take the Salary tomorr ow. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 4. pass. Resolved that there be gr ante d to Her Ma jesty a sum no t exceed ing $92 ,7 00 for Labour and Man po wer. Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets, $92,700 -p ass. Committee rise. SUPPL V - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRON MENT MR. CHA IRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This Committee will come to order.

I would dir ect the honourable members' attention to Page 31 of the Main Estima tes, Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment. Resolution No. 37, Item 2. Consumer Affairs, (

a) Salaries - pass the Honour able Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I'll just say a few words under this item and dir ect a few questions to the Min ister on a specific and 1386

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 constituency matter. I'd like to congra tula te the Minis ter on his appointment to his new position and wish him well in the months that remain. I would like to ask the Mini ster as Mi n ister responsible for The Landlord and Tenant Act and the Minis ter who has taken over the remains of The Rent Stabil ization Act, if the Minis ter can give us a report as to the arbitration proceedings under that Act and how that is working out. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mi nister. HON. GARY FILMON (River Heights): I wonder if I could ask the Member for St.

Vital if he was referring to The Rent Stabilization Act, is that what he said rather than The Landlord and Tenant Act. MR. WALDING: Yes. MR. FILMON: Yes, okay. Mr. Chairman, there are presently three matters st ill in the process under provision of The Rent Stabil ization Act. All relate to rent rebates under the following th ree locations, 22 Beliveau, where monitoring of rebates to vacated and unfound tenants; 379 Union, where the landlord has disappeared; and 10 07 lnkster Boulevard which is pending disposition of Small Claims Proceed ings.

In addition 8 applications for rent refund relating to The Rent Stabil ization Act were received under provision of Su bsection 12 8(4) of The Landlord and Tenant Act of which thr ee remain active, I think that's the area that he's referring to. MR. WALDING: Mr . Chairman, I want to refer the Min ister to two particular apartment blocks in St. Vital, one of them being Southgate Plaza, which is 50 Alpin e, and the Min ister will ha ve received correspon dence on the matter before, including some from myself; and the second one I'll come to afterwards is 11 St. Michael Road.

The Mini ster might be aware or ha ve been informed by his predecessor that the tenants from that block had first written to the government various members of the government in cidently - as early as June of 19 80 about a prop osed rent in crease which was to come into effect on October 1s t.

I should tell the Min ister that 50 Alpine is a reasonably new apartment block; it's about 10 years old; it's about 10 storeys I believe; it's quiet and it's a respectable block. lt has a large number of retired people in it and a number of others who are still employed, and those reti red people are generally people who have made provision for their senior years. it's not the sort of rent block where the people are eligible for rental supplements and the various programs that the government has. it's a quiet block, a very settled apartment building and it's a type of building where there is not a high turno ver.

Generally, all of the apartments are rented with, as I mentioned, very little turno ver involved. The rent incr eases over the years have been modest, although they ha ve been su bject to rent controls and th ere was a roll- back approxima tely half way thro ugh. A number of tenants in the block had applied to the Rentalsman back as early as September because of a propo sed rent increase from the landlord, of some $60.00 a month per apartment, which worked out at approxi mately 20 percent.

Now, there are a number of other apartment blocks in the area where the rents ha ve gone up somewhere between 5 and 10 percent, which is not considered unr easonable. The tenants of 50 Alpine, Mr. Chairman, are not unr easonable people. They know that the landlord's expen ses have gone up and maintenance costs more and heating costs more and the taxes have gone up, and if a rent incr ease in the neigh bourhood of 10 percent had been requested, I feel fairly sure in my mind that there would have been no protest, that it would have been accepted.

But a rent in crease in the neighbourho od of 20 to 23 percent is, in my opinion, unr easonable and was in the opinion of the tenants, also unr easonable, Mr . Chairman. He had contacted the Min ister; he had con tacted the Rentalsman and a hearing was held arranged by the Rentalsman I believe, some time in September, when a group of some 25 or so of the tenants appe ared at a meeting to state their case and to protest against the rent increases of 20 percent and to seek to ha ve them tu rned back to a more reasonable level.

The tenants ha ve had, over the years, a variety of fairly small compla ints ha vi ng to do with redecorat ion, the rep lacement of cur tain, the cleaning of the corridors, the state of the parking garage and a num ber of other things that were brought out at the time, and there was one other factor invo lved in this, that the charge made for the parking was to be inc reased by 50 percent, it was to go up to $30.00 from the present $20.00. Now the landlord, or at least the solicitor for the landlord was quite adamant and there would be no change contemp lated.

I subsequently had a meeting with many of the tenants in there who repeated their complaints and I undertook to do what I could to assist them. I wrote a letter to the Mi nister, urging the Mi nister to refer the matter to the Director of Arbitration and to seek a decision from the Mini ster, to impose a compuls ory arbitration in this particular case, along with the necessary in vest igation of simila r accommodations in the same neighbourhood. My letter to the Mi nister went approxi mately towards the end of October.

The Mi nister replied in a letter to me as of November 12 th, that the matter was in hand and something was probably going to happen. Mr. Chairman, that is now approxi mately three months ago and I und erstand as of at least last week that that arbitration meeting, or the hearing has still not been held. Now from October until now is approximately six months and th e numb er of people who were originally complaining has tended to dwindle.

There are some tenants who have left; there are some who have become disillus ioned and have just given up in disgust and others are beginning to lose their faith in the sys tem, their faith in the Mi nister and their faith in the Co nservative Government. Mr. Chairman, I'm forced to wonder, to ask the Minis ter why this proceeding should take so long as this. The original letter of concern from tenants in the apartment block went to the Min ister back in June of last year - and that was June, July, August, September a good three months before the rent in crease was to come in to effect.

A furthe r six months have gone by and and the tenants are still awaiting some satisfaction of their complaints. 1387

Thursday, 5 March, 1981 One thing that the tenants found, and it's been a particular concern to me, was when th ey got together to dis cuss the ma tter, the y found out strangely enough, that the rents within the block had no relation to one another at all. The Mi nister knows in an apartment block that the one-bedroom suites all tend to be the same size, and the same layout; and the two-bedroom suites tend to be the same size and the same layout; and that other than being on a lower or a hig her floor, there is really no reason for charging a rent higher in one suite than in another suite.

The tenants in 50 Alpine found for example, that in neighbouring two-bedroom suites, both on the same floor, the tenants were pa ying as much $60.00 di fference in one suite from the other. The range of rents being asked was from somewhere in the region of $260 up to a maximum of somewhere around $400 for the same acco mmodation of the same size, within the building. If a slightly differing charge were to be asked, $2.00 or $3.00 for each floor that the tenants went up, that would be accept able. If there was some di fference between su ites of a simila r ac com moda tion, again it would seem to be acceptable.

But in this case there was si mply no justification at all , or no jus ti fic aton that was apparent to the residents in the block. lt was seemed by them to be unfair and when they compared their rents for the previous years, the dif ference that was being paid in some of the high er pr ic ed acco mmodations, was jus t star t ling and unacceptable to the tenants.

The particular point that I made in my letter to the Min ister, was to ur ge the Min ister to have the Director of Arbitration examine the matter of all of the rents within the building and to have them served on some reasonable and justifiable basis so that there could be seen to be a measure of equity between the dif ferent accommodations that were being rented by the tenants. If it should happen that some of the lower ones should be incr eased in price and some of the higher ones brought down to a more rea sonable level, Mr.

Chairman, my constituents in that block are reasonable people and they would accept, I am sure, a reasonable solution to the problem that is facing them. it's been pointed out by one of the tenants in a very recent letter to the Min ister he might even have it, I don't intend to read it, a copy was sent to me - where it has been pointed out that other commercial establishments that are selling goods are not allowed to advertise one price and to sell at another price, and that there are investigations and la w suits that can be und ertaken agains t establishments that are doing that sort of thing.

The suggestion made to the Min ister, and it seems a reasonable one to me, that in the lobby of each apartment block there shou ld be a tariff, if you like, posted for anyone to see, that a bachelor suite costs this much, a one-bedroom suite costs thi s much, a two-bedroom suite costs that much, and they are of thi s number of square feet; and that if there is an additional charge for parking that it shal l be li