April 23, 2002 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 11

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before I call routine proceedings, I would like to welcome to the gallery

today the following people: Mr. Ford Rumbolt, President of the Combined Councils

of Labrador; Gaius Trimn, President fo the Labrador Straits Chamber of Commerce;

Blair Gillis, President of the Southeastern Labrador Chamber of Commerce; Kelvin

Letto, Chair of the Labrador Straits Economic Development Corporation; and Lydia

Penny, Vice Chair of the South Eastern Aurora Development Corporation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

During the weekend of April 13, the Corner Brook campus of the College of the

North Atlantic hosted the 19 th annual West Coast Regional Science

Fair. Approximately 300 students, representing twenty-six schools from Western

Newfoundland and Southern Labrador attended this event.

An innovative aspect of this year's fair is the fact that it was Web-cast

by two College of the North Atlantic engineering electronics students, Marcel

Blunden and Adam Rideout. The Science Fair provided them with the perfect

opportunity to put into practice classroom learning.

Using only a home video camera, a computer and off-the-shelf software, Marcel

and Adam interviewed students and judges and showed many of their projects

exhibited at the Fair. For those parents unable to accompany their children to

Corner Brook, the Web-cast provided the perfect opportunity to allow them to

view the Science Fair from the comfort of their homes.

With so many high-calibre projects, the judges had a difficult time in the

determining winners in each of the several categories.

In the end, however, the project titled Mars 2002, submitted by Sarah Ball,

an Elwood Regional High student from Deer Lake, was judged the best overall

project at the Fair. This project was an interactive project that provided

information about Mars and future Martian exploration. Sarah was also awarded

the Gold in the Computer Science Junior Division, the Aliant Telecom Award and

the Women in Science and Engineering Award, as well as an all expense paid trip

to this year's National Science Fair in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.

I ask all members of this hon. House to join with me in congratulating all

those who took

part in this year's Science Fair and the many teachers who gave

so freely of their time in organizing this worthwhile event.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to report a good news story in support of the art curriculum in

our education system. The hon. Speaker and I were very fortunate to be present

at Crescent Collegiate, Blaketown last evening to witness what can only be

described as a gala in the Arts. This young school community came together to

celebrate song, music and art, all by students.

The Crescent Collegiate Concert Band entertained a gathering with a variety

of selections including themes from Mission Impossible and Titanic ,

although their performance of Grandfather's Clock literally wound up

the audience. The choir presented traditional songs including: Cape St. Mary's

and Drunken Sailor , all to the delight of a very appreciative audience.

Soloist performances by the different students, as well, rounded out a

perfect evening.

As well, besides that - the band and the music - we had an auction with over

100 pieces of visual art, the likes of which you will not see in any established

art gallery. Bidding was fierce. The look of pride on the artists faces as

patrons bid was priceless. All funds raised were reinvested into it.

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to indicate that this is the type of art that

we witnessed last night; beautiful pieces of art from the students, as you can

see, and a final one, a sea gull. These are beautiful prints, by students, which

I certainly am very proud to present to this House today.

Mr. Speaker, I know you were proud of the accomplishments of these students

as everyone else in attendance was. I would be remiss not to mention the

catalysts, the teachers; Mr. David Turner, art teacher and Mr. Rob Lee who is

the music teacher, for bringing out the talents of these students. Their

dedication, determination and love for the arts, certainly is evident in their

students' performances.

Thank yous are extended to the administration of the school, the social

studies department, to the parents and friends of the school as well as some

corporate sponsors like VOCM, Regional Cable and The Compass for their

sponsorship on the evening gala.

I would ask all members of this House to join with the Speaker and me in

congratulating these young students of Crescent Collegiate and their teachers on

a job well done.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance; President of Treasury

Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. the member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I rise today on a very sad occasion.

Yesterday, Catherine Norris, an employee of the Department of Finance, passed

away unexpectedly at the age of forty-one.

Catherine was a warm, friendly individual who was liked by all those who had

the honour of knowing her. She was a valued employee who took pride in her work

and was always willing to lend a helping hand to her co-workers within the

department and the subdivision of Economics and Statistics Branch. She will be

sadly missed by all of those who knew her.

This morning as her co-workers were gathered in my boardroom to share their

grief, there was a very strong sense of the respect, the loss and the love they

felt for their co-worker.

I, along with her colleagues and the Members of the House of Assembly,

express our deepest sympathy to her family and to her friends at this time,

especially to her husband, Peter, and her son, Peter Michael.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today is National Book Day and I would like to take the occasion to honour

those who write books that provide us pleasure and excite people, young and old,

to the joys of reading.

Two books that deserve special mention today are winners of the Provincial

Book Awards for 2002. The Writers Alliance of Newfoundland and Labrador named Ed

Kavanagh as winner of the prize for Best Adult Fiction for his novel The

Confessions of Nipper Mooney , and author Janet McNaugfhton received the

prize in the children/young adult fiction category for her latest novel, The

Secret Under My Skin . There were a record thirty entries in the fiction

category, demonstrating the significant amount of quality writing taking place

in the Province.

Both these books are excellent examples of fine writing. The Confessions

of Nipper Mooney , published locally by Killick Press, is a story about

growing up Catholic in the 1950s and 1960s in rural Newfoundland and St. John's.

It is a first novel by Ed Kavanagh, who is best known for his Amanda Greenleaf

stories, written for children.

This is the fifth award for The Secret Under My Skin , published by

Harper Collins, now available in paperback, and is a story set in Western

Newfoundland 350 years from now. It is a compelling story with a message that is

now being translated into Danish and Dutch, which is a tribute to its

universality.

Mr. Speaker, the Writers Alliance of Newfoundland and Labrador also deserves

to be recognized today for its work in supporting and nurturing the creative

talents of emerging writers and for the dedicating of generous assistance given

by seasoned writers to those who are developing their craft.

I would like to end by urging all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to read

and support the many fine writers in Newfoundland and Labrador, and get great

enjoyment in the bargain.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair..

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the people of Charlottetown on the Coast

of Labrador on their commitment to raising funds for the Janeway Children's

Hospital.

This past weekend, the fourth annual Nicholas Dempster Benefit Night

attracted over 300 people and raised over $4,000 -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: - which brings the total raised over the last four years to

approximately $20,000.

In raising this money, the community has found a very meaningful way to pay

respect to Nickie Dempster, a young boy from the community who died tragically

at the age of four years old.

This fundraising effort was made possible by many volunteer organizers and

talented individuals from all over the district who performed throughout the

night, singing words of glory as they paid tribute to Nickie and to their loved

ones.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize Lisa Dempster, Nickie's mom, who is

in the gallery today, and also her husband, Gaius, for the wonderful

contribution that they have made to the Janeway Children's Hospital and to the

many sick children of our Province. I would also like to recognize Roxanne

Notley, who is also in the gallery today, for the key role that she has played

in both organizing and emceeing this event for the past four years. Mr. Speaker,

Nicholas Dempster was just a young child, but he has touched the lives of oh, so

many people.

I ask all Members of the House of Assembly to join with me in extending my

congratulations to all who were involved in this successful fundraising event,

and to the Dempster family for the remarkable tribute that they have made.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This being volunteer week, I would like to recognize Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians who are the most generous people in the country in terms of

donations to charity. There are many ways besides giving money that our people

have been generous over the years. They give freely of their time and energy,

their skills and experience, particularly when faced with those who are in need.

It is that spirit of sharing that makes Newfoundland and Labrador the special

place it is. Often you hear about large urban centres where people neither know

nor really care about their neighbour. In this Province, we have built a strong

society against the odds because our people consider their neighbours to be

their families. They make strangers friends; they make neighbours family.

You hear of neighbours coming together to rebuild a home destroyed by fire.

When the tragedy of September 11 gripped the world, Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians were the first at the rescue of passengers cut off from their

families and away from their homes. It was a stroke of fortune that these

passengers were stranded in a place known for its hospitality. Volunteerism is

hospitality in action.

Without our volunteer firefighters, what parent would feel safe going to

sleep at night? Without people who are willing to put their lives on the line in

our volunteer fire departments, lives and property would be in grave jeopardy.

If the philosophy "every man for himself" prevailed in Newfoundland

and Labrador, there would be no Newfoundland and Labrador. This place could not

have survived without the kind of sharing that is at the heart of volunteerism.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to follow in the comments of the Minister of Finance in the

passing of Catherine Norris. Catherine is the sister-in-law of my personal

assistant, Ekie O'Reilly. Ekie has informed me that the great moral support

from the employees of the department has certainly helped the family get over

the past week. It has been a very trying week, as I am sure, most will

understand.

We would like to join, on this side of the House, in expressing sympathy to

Catherine's family. I would like to inform the House that a trust fund has

been set up for five-year old son, Peter Michael. I am sure all members will

take in accordance with that. I would just like to add our comments on this side

of the House and express our sympathy to the family and thank the minister for

her kind words.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to advise this hon. House of the

recent announcement of the three commissioners who will serve on the Royal

Commission on Renewing and Strengthening our Place in Canada, and to table the

Terms of Reference.

I am pleased that Mr. Vic Young, Sister Elizabeth Davis and Judge James

Igloliorte will serve as commissioners. These individuals will work on behalf of

all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to help renew and strengthen this Province's

place in the country and around the world.

Mr. Young, Sister Davis and Judge Igloliorte each have diverse skills and

experience at senior levels of the public and private sector in Newfoundland and

Labrador. Their collective accomplishments, experiences and skills will

represent this Province in a thoughtful, comprehensive and inclusive manner. I

am certain that all parties in this House will support these commissioners as

they undertake a vital and serious task on behalf of all Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians.

Mr. Speaker, I am also confident that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador

will support the work of the Commission. While people may not always agree on

how we can improve the position of our Province in the Canadian federation and

the global community, our citizens will no doubt express their own unique views

on our future.

As Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, we need to review where we have been and

where we are today. We need a renewed comprehensive plan for where we are going

and how we can get there. We can make this happen.

To achieve this goal we must follow the principles of open discussion,

respectful consideration of differing positions and innovative ideas for the

future. We must work within the context of building rather than dividing, and we

must put forward an articulate, strong statement about the condition of our

Province to build a future.

Mr. Speaker, I wish the best of luck to these dedicated, conscientious

individuals who have agreed to take on this monumental and imperative

initiative. While they take the next few weeks to meet and discuss what their

approach will be, the Commission is expected to have its structure in place and

be fully operational by June 1.

Mr. Speaker, I encourage all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to consider

what it is they want this Province to be, and make their views known to the

Commission.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to table in this hon. House the Terms of

Reference set out for the Royal Commission.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly, Mr. Speaker, we welcome today the appointment of the Commission,

and there are some prominent Newfoundlanders and Labradorians on that

Commission. I am sure as they travel throughout this Province and listen to

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, they will hear an earful of the concerns that

people have addressed throughout this Province for many, many year.

Mr. Speaker, it is a tremendous task, but I say to the government, the main

thing we have to remember here is that, at the end of the day, the proof will be

in the action taken on the report and the Commission. At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, we have to remind government that today it is the action of the

government that now holds the mandate in this Province. Today is not a time to

hide behind any Commission or to wait for a year-and-a-half, to put off anything

on issues such as transfer payments, health care, education, fisheries,

transportation, and on some very serious issues, Mr. Speaker, on our place in

Confederation, that concern Newfoundland and Labrador today.

At the end of the day, Mr. Speaker, we will hear the report of the

Commission, we will address those concerns, but it is today that this government

has to act on those issues that concern us most today.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We welcome the appointment of the Royal Commission and the commissioners who

are all each held in high regard within the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador. It is a commission that we, ourselves, proposed two years ago; so we

support wholeheartedly this effort. There is nothing more significant in

Newfoundland's history, Mr. Speaker, and brought about so much rapid change as

Confederation with Canada, and the debate still rages as to the details of that

arrangement and whether it is good or bad for Newfoundland and Labrador. This is

a valuable opportunity to focus that debate, to bring all the arguments

together, to have adequate and proper research done, and to establish a

consensus in the Province about where we go from here.

Certainly, there are huge implications for the future of any government of

any stripe in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador as a result of whatever

this Commission comes up with. We look forward to deliberations over the next

year -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - and hopefully we will see a good consensus, a wealth of

research and some new ideas and innovative approaches that might be taken.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance; President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me today to rise to

announce that over the weekend, a tentative agreement was reached with the

Newfoundland and Labrador Nurses Union.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The recommended tentative agreement will see nurses

receive a salary increase of 15 per cent over thirty-six months.

This agreement will enhance nursing recruitment efforts and provides benefits

for all nurses. The NLNU will recommend acceptance of the tentative agreement

when it is brought to their nurses for ratification vote over the next few

weeks.

Mr. Speaker, reaching a negotiated settlement with nurses, reaffirms a new

area of cooperation between our government and our public sector unions. Since

last June, we have signed twenty agreements with unions representing our public

sector employees. I would like to thank specifically our negotiating team for

the long hours and the hard work that they have put in during these

negotiations. Government appreciates the job that they have done and I am sure

the people of the Province also appreciate their efforts.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I find it quite amusing that the minister would stand here and reaffirm a new

era of cooperation between our government and the nurses union when the very

same government turned them to the streets; legislated them back to work. They

had to work below the pay of counterparts in Atlantic Canada, then they had to

go out and advertise across North America to get them back, pay a travel cost,

pay bonuses, I might add -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: - to correct the problem they failed to face up to in the

beginning. Now, again, I hear they are going to start it all over again.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SULLIVAN: They are going to drop the bonuses again now. They are

going to start the same cycle all over again, Mr. Speaker. Shameful!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are also pleased to see a negotiated settlement between the nurses and

government.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, are pleased to see a negotiated settlement between government and

the nurses' union, one that hopefully will meet the needs of both sides and

the public as well.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. COLLINS: I am sure that this settlement, if ratified by the union in

the days to come, will certainly lend, or go a long ways towards lending,

stability in the health care in this Province.

Again, it is not like we have seen the last time.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: It shows that negotiations can work, and this is living

proof of that.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my questions this afternoon are related to the portfolio of

Mines and Energy, so they would be first for the Acting Premier or, in the

alternative, to the Acting Minister of Mines and Energy.

Mr. Speaker, this government was elected on the mandate that it would not

allow Voisey's Bay ore to leave - or concentrate, for that matter - and be

processed outside this Province. In fact, the Red Book says, "INCO proposes

to take the ore in the Voisey's Bay deposit and ship it elsewhere to be

processed. That is not acceptable."

Mr. Speaker, I completely agree with that statement. That is not acceptable.

That is why it is our party policy to agree with that particular position. In

fact, the former Premier, Premier Tobin, said not a single spoonful of ore would

leave this Province.

Mr. Speaker, now that the CEO of Inco is stating publicly that Voisey's Bay

ore will be used to keep operations in Sudbury and Manitoba competitive for a

long period of time, my question for the acting minister is simply this: Would

he or she confirm in this Legislature that their party and their government has

broken the mandate and trust of the people of this Province by allowing Voisey's

Bay ore or concentrate to be shipped to Manitoba and Ontario to create jobs for

Manitobans and Ontarians?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

We have broken no mandate and we will not break a mandate. The only mandate

we have is to get the best possible deal for the people of our Province, and

that is what we intend to do.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. NOEL: We will get a deal that will be supported by the people of our

Province or we will not have a deal. The party opposite have been trying to

scare the people of our Province for five years now, into the possibility that

we would give away the resources of our Province. It is thanks to the government

of this Province, to the party on this side of the House, that we have stood

firm, that we insist on a proper deal for our Province, and there will not be an

agreement until we get a deal that is going to provide prosperity for

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am delighted to see the acting minister so forceful in his response, and we

will discuss the terms of that deal. In fact, as I said before, Mr. Hand, the

CEO of Inco, talks in terms of using Voisey's Bay ore to keep Manitobans and

Ontarians productive and competitive for a long, long period of time. What I

want to know, Mr. Speaker, exactly how long is a long period of time?

I would ask the acting minister to confirm for us today what we are being

told, that in fact ore will be shipped to Manitoba and Ontario until at least

the year 2011. Would he confirm that for the people of this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, we look forward to working out an arrangement with

Inco and Mr. Hand to provide for the development of Voisey's Bay, but it will

not be Mr. Hand who will determine how Voisey's Bay is to be developed.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: It will be the government of this Province, Mr. Speaker, and

the party on this side of the House, and it will only be developed if we get the

kind of deal that the people of our Province want; and the deal that we will

agree to will ensure the prosperity of Newfoundlanders and the competitiveness

and the efficiency of our industry for many years to come.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is the kind of deal that they promised to the people of this Province. It

is what the people want from this government.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Premier refuses to answer any of my

questions in this House on this particular issue, and I was hoping that the

acting minister, presumably a man of principle, would give us some answers in

this House on this issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his supplementary.

MR. WILLIAMS: The Premier chooses, Mr. Speaker, to refuse to answer my

questions or state his position outside the House to the media, outside this

Legislature.

Mr. Speaker, my question for the acting minister is: In light of the Premier's

statement last week, that ore would not be coming back to this Province for

perhaps thirty to thirty-five years, is it possible that if replacement ore is

available, it will not be shipped back to Newfoundland and Labrador until the

year 2046, which coincidently is the same time we might get our hydroelectric

power back.?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is out to lunch on his assumptions

in this regard. I do not know where he gets the kind of information that he

appears to believe. I remind him, Mr. Speaker, that it is this party that has

insisted on the right deal for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador for five

years now, and we will not make a deal until we get the kind of deal that the

people of our Province want.

I condemn the people on the other side for trying for five years now to scare

the people of our Province into believing that we are going to give away

something. This Province, this government and this party, Mr. Speaker, will give

away nothing without getting the proper kind of deal for our people.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I quote the leader of our government, the

Premier of the Province, and I use his words, and his minister tells me I am out

to lunch. Well, then, what is the logical conclusion? The Premier is also out to

lunch.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: We do know that he likes to go to lunch and he likes to go

to supper and he likes to get a few cheques while he is there, doesn't he?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Acting Minister of Mines and Energy

if, in fact, the CEO of Inco has said that Manitoba, Thompson ore will be

depleted - in fact, it is nearly depleted now - and if, in fact, the Sudbury

find is over 120 years old, where is the ore going to come from? A simple

question, a simple answer.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, the obvious conclusion is that the hon. member

opposite does not either know how to read or how to hear, if that is his

interpretation of what our Premier's position is.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: If the people of Sudbury or Manitoba or anywhere else think

that they are going to benefit from the deposit in Voisey's Bay at the expense

of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, they will soon find out the facts in

that regard.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, as we have been saying for a number of years now,

and as will continue to be the case, there will never be development of Voisey's

Bay unless it is on terms acceptable to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the acting minister, and I would like to pursue that.

So, if this deal will be acceptable to the people - we have been told by

Scott Hand that a deal is close. We were told by former Premier Tulk that, in

fact, this would be debated in this Legislature before a deal is signed.

Will the acting minister today make a commitment to the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador that this matter will be brought before this

Legislature in detail before any deal is signed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, as I have said, it won't be Scott Hand who will

determine whether there is an acceptable deal or when the development of Voisey's

Bay will go ahead. This government will determine when we believe that we have a

deal that is good for our Province and acceptable to the people of our Province.

When we are convinced of that, we will make a deal.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I ask the acting minister again: Will he make

the commitment that former Premier Tulk made? Will this be debated in this

Legislature before the deal is signed, so that the people will know the terms of

the deal?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, we will bring whatever is appropriate for debate

in this House to this House, but, as a government, we will decide when we have a

deal that we think the people of the Province support and we will carry out our

duties to make deals on behalf of the people of our Province in accordance with

the responsibilities we have as the government of this Province, and in

accordance with the responsibilities that we expect to have for a good while

into the future, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the acting minister is also the Member for Virginia Waters. I

would like to know, for the record and for the constituents of Virginia Waters:

Do you support a deal that allows ore or concentrate to leave this Province, and

are you against debate in this Assembly before a deal is signed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: For the record, for your constituents.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. NOEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the people of Virginia Waters have been good enough to elect me

four times to this House of Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, I believe they have done so because they have

confidence in the way I represent them in this House of Assembly. They know that

I have a record of saying what I believe, doing what I think is right,

supporting what I think is right to do on behalf of our Province, and they know

that I will not change at this time in our history. I will support a deal that

is in the best interests of our Province, and this government will not propose a

deal that does not meet that criteria.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the acting minister: If that deals

includes a provision that ore or concentrate from Voisey's Bay will leave this

Province, will you support that deal? Answer that for your constituents in

Virginia Waters.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why the hon. members opposite cannot

find some other policy issues in our Province to deal with, that would be more

appropriate for them to be dealing with than the way they are at this particular

time. All they have been doing, and all this particular leader has been doing

since he become leader, is fearmongering in our Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the minister -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair interrupted the hon. minister when he was answering the question

because there was so much noise here that the Chair could not hear what the hon.

minister was saying. I will give him an opportunity to finish his answer.

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the hon. member expects to

accomplish by asking the same question over and over and over. If we reach a

deal, when we reach a deal, we will advise the public and we will advise him of

what deal we have that we are prepared to recommend to the public of our

Province. When that happens, he will have ample opportunity to respond to it and

give his advice on what he thinks should be done. Before that time, none of us

know what will be in the final deal, not even the people on this side of the

House. We cannot talk about a hypothetical deal. When we have a deal, the hon.

member will be informed, as well as everybody else in the Province. Then the

people of the Province will decide whether it is acceptable to them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, each hon. minister and each hon. member opposite has to stand up

and be counted on this one. I would like to ask a question, a supplementary, to

the Minister of Labour, who is next to the acting minister. I ask the Minister

of Labour, as the Member for Grand Fall-Buchans: Will she, in fact, support a

deal that includes ore or concentrate from Voisey's Bay leaving this Province

for processing and creating jobs elsewhere?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, the Chair wants to inform hon. members that they can address the

questions to members of the House, to government, but they cannot decide what

member will respond. We cannot go jumping from one minister to the other.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, I understand the hon. Leader of the Opposition has

been on a rather steep learning curb since he became a member of this House. He

seems to be on a particularly difficult learning curve when it comes to

understanding what we are saying about Voisey's Bay. I do not know how many

times we need to say it in order to get through to him. Perhaps, if he would

like to take a new tact on this issue, he might start by telling us what his

proposal is for the development of Voisey's Bay.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The people of Newfoundland and Labrador know what our position is. We have

stated it time and time again in this Legislature.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Very clear, unequivocally clear: No ore leaves this

Province for processing elsewhere. End of statement.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Member for Topsail what his position is

with regard -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair just interrupted the member on a previous question directed to a

different minister. If questions are to be asked, that they be asked to the

government. The government will determine which member will respond to that

question. So, I ask the hon. member to direct his questions to the appropriate

minister.

MR. WILLIAMS: I have no further questions, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for any member in government who chooses to answer,

Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Last year this government took $68 million from hydro in

dividends, the year ending March 31. This year they are proposing taking another

$44 million in dividends, for $112 million out of Newfoundland and Labrador

Hydro in dividends.

MR. JOYCE: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: I want to ask the minister, Mr Speaker, if I can over the

voice of the Member for Bay of Islands shouting out. I would like to ask the

minister what affect will this have on the debt to equity ratio of Newfoundland

and Labrador Hydro?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance; President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I got really excited, I thought the member opposite was going to stand up and

congratulate the staff and government for achieving a tentative agreement with

the nurses.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I know he is very disappointed that happened this

weekend. I could tell by his reaction to our statement, as I am sure the people

of the Province could as well.

But, in response to the question, Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows in

fact -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Unless it is an urgent point of order, the Chair reminds members that during

Question Period points of order should be kept until the end of the Question

Period.

The hon. the Minister of Finance; President of Treasury Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As the member asked the question previously as it relates to hydro - and I

also think the president of hydro, the chair of hydro also pointed out - this

would not impact on that ratio. It would not be impacting because, as Mr. Bill

Wells said, they would be borrowing the money regardless this year for capital,

et cetera. So it is not an impact.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to know where Mr. Wells said that borrowing money does not

impact on the debt to equity ratio. The $68 million that was spent last year,

given to this government by hydro - the hydro that you wanted to privatize - was

already spent on transmission lines and power plants which means that hydro now

has to borrow money. When you borrow money you increase your debt, and then your

debt to equity ratio increases, I say.

Mr. Speaker, I say to this minister, when we are taking from Newfoundland and

Labrador Hydro, we are not robbing Peter to pay Paul, we are robbing Peter to

pay Peter. I want to ask the minister: How is this going to enhance the bottom

line of our Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, everybody in the Province knows, as was

read out when I did my Budget Speech, what our plan was for pushing forward

monies to offset deficits in outgoing years. We all know, as well, what a better

place - this is owned. We are the shareholders, the people of the Province, of

hydro. We know what it is being spent for. It is being spent to offset our own

deficit to provide services for health and education, and all the roads and

infrastructure that is needed. The member opposite is well aware of what it is

being used for. There is nothing hidden. It was read out in this year's

Budget. It was read out last year what our plans were, and it is there for the

whole Province to see. There is nothing happening here that hasn't been read

publicly and openly to the people of the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This minister does not know what she is talking about, Mr. Speaker. If we

take money from hydro we will experience clawbacks on equalization a year or two

down the road. This is a quick fix, I say to the minister. It is a one-time haul

down and we pay the piper later. That is why previous governments did not do

this, minister.

I want to ask the minister, Mr. Speaker: Could the minister stand and tell

the House the economics behind those decisions?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the economics -

MR. SULLIVAN: Voodoo economics.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, Mr. Speaker. To the member opposite, you are the

master of voodoo economics. We, here, are the master of telling it the way it

is.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I want to say here: What is the economics

of this? The economics of this is that we have linked our social and our

economic needs of the Province. We have made a conscious choice that we will

spend the money on our number one priority: on health care and education, and we

stand by that decision today in this House, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS S. OSBORNE: In March 2000, the present Premier, who was then Minister

of Health, announced a $2 million initiative for a breast health centre, the

purpose of which was to reduce waiting lists for breast screening and to enable

early detection.

I would like to ask the minister: Is he aware that the present waiting list

for a mammography appointment for a person who is under fifty years of age, even

with a history of a breast abnormality, is almost a year?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister is, indeed, aware of the situation. As a matter of fact, in my

own district within the past year I had occasion to meet with a committee that

was active out there in terms of advocating for this very important service.

We, as a government, as the hon. member has mentioned, have committed funds

to deal with this issue. We have moved forward as part of a comprehensive plan

on the wellness side in terms of trying to deal with these issues that are out

there. We recognize, again, that as we move forward in dealing with all of the

concerns that are out there that we are not - as I have indicated in this House,

on any given day there are people who are going to be in this Province standing

and saying that we should be doing more of this and we should be doing more of

that. That, Mr. Speaker, is the simplest thing to do. Hon. members opposite

relish in this everyday, on their feet standing and saying: Why don't you

spend more money here? Why don't you spend more money there? Well, the reality

is that this government, and the people of this Province, do not have unlimited

funds. It would be a very simple issue if this minister, and this government,

had unlimited funds that we could dip into to deal with every reality that is

out there.

Mr. Speaker, I suggest to hon. members, and to the people of this Province -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. SMITH: - that at the present time, with the money that we have

committed, some forty-five cents of every dollar being spent this year, that is

certainly an indication of the importance which we attribute to health care in

this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is very traumatic for a woman to detect a breast abnormality and this is

certainly compounded when there are further delays in getting a diagnosis. A

woman in such a condition, with a requisition from her doctor, tried in March to

get an appointment for a mammogram. The earliest one was in January, 2003. Can

the minister confirm that the backlog and the waiting list is due to evening

screening being discontinued due to cutbacks?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm what the hon. member has

just suggested.

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member for Ferryland is still in his

usual mode today, being the expert on everything in this House.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SMITH: I wish he would take the time to start listening.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to get to his answer.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. member's question, I concede and

acknowledge that it is an important question. For people who are availing and

waiting for that service, it is important. Any wait list, I am sure, for a

person in that situation, any waiting time is too long.

Mr. Speaker, this government - we have working with the health care

corporations - moved to reduce the wait lists. We have made additional resources

available, and we will continue to work with the health care corporations, and

the professionals who deliver that service to the people of the Province, to

continue to reduce the length of these wait lists.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

I say to the minister, I have spoken with truck drivers from Labrador West

this weekend who used the road from Labrador West to Happy Valley-Goose Bay to

transport goods to make a living. Mr. Speaker, they log up to 200,000 kilometres

a year on this road. The truckers have been calling the minister for about a

year now to speak directly with them but none of their calls are being returned.

The

section of road between Labrador West and Churchill Falls, Mr. Speaker,

is deteriorated with serious washouts and potholes. Truckers and residents in

the area are very concerned, not only about sustaining damage to their vehicle,

but their public safety as well. I say to the minister, there are supposed to be

three graders on this

section of road, repairing and grading it. However, right

now and for the last while there has been only one covering a distance of 500

kilometres return. I say to the minister, that is the same distance as from St.

John's to Terra Nova Park return; one grader on a gravel road. Mr. Speaker,

this road is such an unacceptable condition -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

MR. COLLINS: - that it requires immediate response from the minister; a

response to the truckers and the travelling public.

I ask the minister: What is he going to do, immediately, to get this

section

of road repaired and ensure that the required amount of equipment is available

at all times?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, that

section of road that the hon. member is

talking about has been identified as a problem within the department. This

government has addressed the issue and has allocated money this year to provide

a new Class A material on that road. The contract for that particular road is

done by a private contractor. The money has been allocated to do it, and I will

investigate to see if there is any problem with the contract.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister, that seventy kilometres of that road is not even in

the area that you are going to upgrade this year.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I ask the minister: Will he go to Labrador and meet with the truckers, hear

their concerns and take action where required?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. BARRETT: This minister is prepared to meet with any group, anywhere

in this Province, at any time, depending on the scheduling. As a matter of fact,

I was in Little Bay Islands addressing some concerns with the people of Little

Bay Islands on Friday, and had a fantastic meeting. The member was not there but

I met with the group in Little Bay Islands and addressed some concerns with the

road - and in Bonavista South and all around this Province. I am prepared, at

any time, to go to Labrador to address the issue; but the problem with gravel

roads at this time of the year, when we have such freezing and thawing, it is

very difficult to maintain and very difficult to grade. It is a problem that

exists with gravel roads, but we are addressing the problem to the best of our

ability.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation is wondering if I am

rising to ask to spend more money. No, I am asking the minister to allocate

money in the budget that has already been debated here in this House to address

a very serious problem under the jurisdiction of his department.

Mr. Speaker, this petition is to the hon. House of Assembly of the Province

of Newfoundland in parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned

residents of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The people in the Port

Kirwan and Fermeuse areas are asking this House to call upon the government to

pave the remaining two kilometres of road that needs to be resurfaced.

Back four years ago the department saw it necessary - the road was in such

bad shape that they decided to do half of it. Four years later they have not

come back to do the remaining half. That road is in desperate shape, as the

minister knows full well. I gave him a letter last week in this House, and I

gave him photographs of that road, about fifteen photographs or more of that

road that is in a deplorable condition. I invited the minister, Mr. Speaker, to

come up to the area, to drive on the road, to look at it and judge for himself

the condition of that particular road.

Mr. Speaker, I am just asking the minister to look at the needs here, to

allocate funding in areas of priority, and a road that was a priority four years

ago has not been finished since. It should be a much higher priority today

because it is in much worse shape than it was, even four years ago.

There are potholes, pavement is eaten away. There are areas where you cannot

meet a vehicle on it without going off on the shoulder of the road; a very

serious condition. While the minister did not visit the area to see it, I

provided him with numerous photographs; an opportunity just to see firsthand

basically, from these photographs what it was like.

I ask the minister, when he makes his announcement, to announce funding to

fix this very serious problem. In fact, truckers, delivery people, the fire

department and numerous people have made reference to and representation that it

is not safe to drive over; there are hills there, it is not in very good

condition. It is a risk for ambulances, fire trucks and people visiting that

community. In fact, it is the only community in my district that had an increase

in population. It had over an 11 per cent increase in population in the last

census there; the only one. We cannot say it is a community that is dying. It is

a community that people are coming back to live there. It is increasing in size.

So why don't we give it appropriate attention here and get something done

about it?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I too, have a petition, Mr. Speaker. I would like to read the pray of the

petition if I could:

To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in

parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents of the Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador ask for the House of Assembly to accept the

following prayer:

We, the undersigned citizens of the Cape Shore area, hereby draw your

attention to the unsatisfactory and unsafe conditions as they now exist on Route

100, Cape Shore;

WHEREAS it the duty of government through the enactment and enforcement of

the Highways Safety Act to protect its citizens not only from commuters but also

from unsafe highways; and

WHEREAS the safety of the travelling public must be the number one priority

of any government;

THEREFORE your petitioners ask that the government provide the necessary

funding to carry out the much needed repairs to Route 100, as in duty bound your

petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, this is the first of several petitions that will be sent my way,

I have been informed by the residents of the Cape Shore area, in relation to the

conditions of the road on Route 100, especially from just outside of Angel's

Cove, on what we call Cuslett lookout, over to the community of Branch. It is

about twenty-five to thirty kilometres of road, Mr. Speaker, that is in a

deplorable condition. Much work needs to be done in that area. The initial

paving was done in 1979, and it has been patched up in many cases ever since.

There are tremendous holes, Mr. Speaker, and it is providing a very unsafe

condition for the travelling public. I have talked to many people in the area

that have received hundreds of dollars worth of damage to their vehicles and

continuously having a problem with trying to manoeuver on the road due to the

unsafe conditions. There are some incredible holes, Mr. Speaker. One gentleman

said to me the other day, we would have been better off if we had to stay with

the gravel road than the condition of the pavement as it is there now.

Mr. Speaker, I bring this petition forward on behalf of the residents of the

communities, mostly here in this situation of St. Brides, Branch and Point

Lance. I ask the minister to take into consideration the work that needs to be

done in that area. We did receive some recapping last year under the Department

of Works, Services and Transportation. Again, the road is in a deplorable

condition and needs much work done this year.

I take the opportunity today to invite the minister - as the Member for

Ferryland just did before me - to take a visit down that way himself over the

next few days, to have a look before he brings down his final budget numbers for

this year on road work in the Province. I realize the restraints on the finances

that are available to the minister as he deals with the situation in the

Province.

We have, in our area, one of the major tourist attractions for the Province,

the Cape St. Mary's Ecological Reserve. We get thousands of visitors, within

the next month, the end of May or early June, who will start returning to Cape

St. Mary's. As I said, we get thousands and thousands of visitors there every

year. We have people who come in travel homes, Rvs, who are going to find it

very, very difficult. We had a lot of complaints last year and I am sure it will

be no stranger to more complaints this year.

I present this petition to the House today and ask the minister to take into

consideration the needs that are needed on Route 100. I present the petition on

behalf of the people in the area, and as I said, Mr. Speaker, there will be more

petitions coming.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!.

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. MANNING: The people in the area have decided to make this issue an

important issue here in the House and I intend to do that on their behalf.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to put forward a petition. The petition reads:

To the House of Assembly of Newfoundland in legislative session convened, the

petition of the unsigned residents of Newfoundland;

WHEREAS the roads in the areas of Jamestown and Winter Brook are in very poor

condition and are in desperate need of paving;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador

to pave approximately one kilometre of road in Jamestown, and approximately six

kilometres of road leading to and including part of the community of Winter

Brook, as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, this is just another of the many petitions that I have brought

forward here in this House of Assembly since I became the member representing

that part of the District of Bonavista South in 1996. Back in 1995 this

particular road was upgraded and made ready for paving. Paving was promised the

following year, and the residents of Winter Brook are still waiting to see the

main road, the only road, to their community paved.

Last year I took the minister down, and we met with some concerned citizens

there who gathered on the side of the road to express their concern and

frustration in dealing with the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation; and trying to highlight their concern in this Legislature here

to have the only road leading to their community upgraded and paved.

Those people in Winter Brook are not asking for something that this

government cannot afford. They are not asking for something that this government

has not done to almost every other community in Newfoundland and Labrador. The

people in Winter Brook are asking the minister if they could be included in this

year's capital works budget to complete the road leading to their community.

On that particular road, Mr. Speaker, as I have said here before, is a sawmill

operation that employs anywhere from sixty to eighty people. The owner of that

particular sawmill has gone out and paved his parking lot to try to do away with

a problem of dust coming in and dulling the knives and the saws that he uses to

do his milling work. He has asked the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation, he has asked the former Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation, to kindly adhere to his wish, and the wishes of the people who

live in Winter Brook, to have this particular road paved. It does not need to be

upgraded and paved, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, because the road has already been

upgraded. I suggest to the minister, it is probably the cheapest six kilometers

of pavement that he will lay in this Province in this coming summer. I do not

know what the cost or rule of thumb is per kilometer for paving, but this one

would certainly be at the low scale.

Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister if he would give the people in Winter Brook -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: - the basic needs of having their road, the main road,

the only road to their community, paved in this year's budget, in this coming

construction season.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great privilege to rise today to present a petition on behalf of

residents of Labrador West. The petition is to the hon. House of Assembly in the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in Parliament assembled. The petition

addresses the issue of the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund that was set

up with $347.6 million from the federal government for transportation in

Labrador.

They are saying, by way of petition, that they believe the raiding of the

Labrador Transportation Fund is a gross violation of the purpose of the fund, a

breach of trust with the people of Labrador, and hereby petition the House of

Assembly to direct the government to immediately put this $97 million back into

the fund to be spent on transportation initiatives in Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, my question today was for the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation concerning roads in Labrador, roads that are deteriorating to a

degree where it is unsafe to be used by the public, and particularly for those

who have to travel that highway to make a living to provide for them and their

families.

The

section of road that the minister referred to in his answer today is but

one

section of road that has deteriorated. The other

section between Ashuanipi

River and Labrador West, there is no money allocated for that this year and that

road is certainly going the same as the

section from Ashuanipi to Esker turnoff.

I say that is indicative of what a gravel road is in the spring of the year,

there is no question about that, but it is a continuous job. As one

section of

road is upgraded, another

section is deteriorating. That is going to be constant

work throughout the number of years that a road exists as gravel rather than

being paved.

Mr. Speaker, this highway started in 1984. That is eighteen years ago now,

and the road is still not complete. By taking money out of the fund, as

government has done, what that means in the future years is that Labrador is

going to have to compete with the meager dollars that are spent on road repair

in this Province with all other parts of the Province, including the island

portion;

whereas before we had this pot of money that we could draw on, even

using the interest, Mr. Speaker, that would go a long ways toward doing

considerable roadwork and upgrading in Labrador. We are very much afraid that

will be jeopardized in the years to come because the dollars will just not be

there for the Province to be able to do it in spite of the promises that they

made to complete the

section from Cartwright to Happy Valley-Goose Bay over a

six-year period following the EIS study being completed and accepted. That, Mr.

Speaker, is not something that is going to happen tomorrow. That is going to

take time, so it is six years from then. The earliest we are looking at a road

connection through Labrador is certainly not in the foreseeable future.

Going back to the fund itself, and the

section of road on the Labrador

Highway right now, monies from his fund could be used to upgrade that

section of

highway to a level where people could use it safely -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: By leave, just to clue up, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. COLLINS: The monies in that fund could be used, Mr. Speaker, to put

that

section of road in a condition so that the travelling public can use it

safely, so that tourists will not hesitate to return as a result of travelling

over that road, and that truckers, who spend $150,000 or more for their

vehicles, can deliver goods and services throughout Labrador without doing

serious damage to their vehicles and jeopardizing their own personal safety.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I say the petition calls for the government to change

their mind on this $97 million, to leave it there and use it for the purpose

that the fund was intended.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 2, Mr. Speaker. I move that the House resolve itself into

a Committee on Supply to debate the Estimates of the Executive Council.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. minister has indicated that she had a report to table under

Presenting Reports but did not have it available. I wonder if we could just

revert before we go into Committee so she can table that.

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is very good information for members opposite, Mr. Speaker. I am sure

they will be happy to have this.

I have here, the tabling of pre-commitments; three of those under subsection

26.5(

a) of the Financial Administration Act. One relates to a pre-commitment of

up to $1 million for Tourism, Culture and Recreation purposes, and members

opposite would know we need to book this in advance to avail of the tourism

market for the coming year. Another amount is for $109,000 and this was, again,

to fulfil a contract for the production of religious education student and

teaching learning resources in our system. The third one is a pre-commitment of

$4.5 million for the purchase of textbooks for the school.

Pursuant to

section 26.(5) of the Financial Administration Act, I am tabling

three Orders in Council relating to funding commitments for the year 2002-2003

and 2003-2004 fiscal years.

Further, Mr. Speaker, I am also tabling today the creation of new activities

of expenditure as required again under subsection 28.(4) of the Financial

Administration Act, as it relates to a new activity. The first one is in

relation to a vote within the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

Again, this was for $750,000. This a federal-provincial agreement whereby,

rather than lose the federal funds, we re-profiled that to allow us to receive

the federal share of the program, $600,000 which otherwise would have been

returned to Ottawa.

Our second creation of a new activity is to cover, again from the Department

of Industry, Trade and Technology. This was to provide marine infrastructure

improvements in the Community of Cartwright to facilitate forestry and related

industry development in this area, and that was at a cost of $2.75 million.

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to

section 28.(4) of the Financial Administration Act,

I am tabling two Orders-in-Council for the creation of two new activities of

expenditure for the fiscal year 2001-2002.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr.

Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of the Whole

CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!

The Estimates for the Executive Council, the Premier's Office.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, I was just wondering, with the concurrence of members opposite, if

we could revert for a moment to the Consolidated Fund Services, to answer a

question that was asked relating to the loan guarantee fees. The member opposite

asked about the other corporate guarantees which were covered for a total of

$59,500.

CHAIR: Does the member have leave to revert?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

CHAIR: By leave.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: This is a report of -

MR. SULLIVAN: Could you refer to the section, please?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, this is

section 1.4.01.02., under Revenue -

Provincial. It is in respect to the

schedule of loan guarantees. The question

was asked about the other corporate guarantees to the amount of $59,500.

Those amounts refer to AL Stuckless and Sons for an amount of $12,000; Fogo

Island Co-op for $20,000; Island By-Products Limited for $2,500; Newfoundland

Liquor Corporation $2,000; Newfoundland Symphony Orchestra Association $1,000;

Smith's Seafoods Limited $1,000 and Torngat Fish Producers Co-operative

Society Limited $21,000. That adds up to the total of $59,500.

MR. SULLIVAN: What was the last one?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The last one was the Torngat Fish Producers Co-operative

Society Limited, for a total of $59,500.

MR. SULLIVAN: What was the amount for Torngat Fish Producers?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The amount for Torngat was $21,000.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do understand that we are going to go directly to the Executive Council,

and I wanted to ask a couple of questions to the minister relative to the

operation of Government House. It is found on page 13 of the Estimates

documents. I do note that there have been some variations, but one of the

variation that we note there is in the Purchased Services. It is item 1.1.01.06.

Last year, the allocation was for $24,600 and that is the allocation this year.

Last year, the actual expenditure was $66,000. I want to ask the minister: Did

some emergency occur? What happened at Government House that we would have an

increase here, in a time of fiscal restraint, that amounts to an almost tripling

of monies allocated under Purchased Services? Did something happen that was

unforseen? What was the rationale for the increase from $24,600 in the budget of

last year to an actual expenditure of $66,000?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The answer to the question is really around an increase in charges for a

number of expenditure items, I say to the Member for Waterford Valley, including

photocopier charges, printing costs, advertising costs, entertainment expenses,

photography charges, also repairs and maintenance of the Government House

vehicles, gardening equipment that needed to be repaired, and some household

appliances needed to be replaced. Also, there was some minor refurbishing of the

period furniture related to the house. Also, as you know, and many of you would

know this, there was also - I want to compliment the Lieutenant-Governor on

putting together a historical walk-through of Government House for the people of

our Province. I know it has been on display across the country and in Europe. In

fact, I know there is an delegation of Sisters of Mercy who are now going to

Ireland to celebrate Sister McAuley and her creation of the Order of the Sisters

of Mercy. I know this is one of the things they will be bringing with them to

promote the Province and to go through the historical perspective. This is put

together very much with the help of the Lieutenant-Governor and also, of course,

by Jean Edwards Stacey, who also did much of the writing for us. They are some

of the reasons why the expenditures increased, as you have pointed out.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Madam Minister.

Madam Minister, we too compliment His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor, on the

production of this wonderful booklet which will help to explain to the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador, and also help to explain to the people across our

Province, the functioning of Government House. However, I do note with some

concern that many of the items the minister has mentioned are indeed routine

expenditures. When you talk about photocopying, these things are very

predictable. I do not find the rationale sufficient to justify moving from

$24,600 to $66,000 in one year. It seems that particular expenditure either

should have been budgeted for beforehand - many things the minister has

mentioned are indeed very predictable. It should have been predictable that

repairs would be needed to some of the furniture that is there, or some of the

work that she has mentioned in her answer. I am wondering if the minister has

knowledge of any upcoming expenditures this year that are not accounted for in

the budget that is here now?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I think, in all fairness to the Lieutenant-Governor and the house that is

maintained down there, many of the things that you list off, you are not aware.

Obviously, if you have an appliance that needs to be repaired - I didn't know

that my fridge was going to break down two weeks ago. I had no prior knowledge

and I had to replace it. With all due respect, I think some of these may be

predictable, and I did point out the ones that are predictable. Again, I refer

to this book. This was a $15,000 cost of the amount that you are seeing there,

which would not happen again.

Did the Lieutenant-Governor know at the beginning of the last budget year

that this would be an item? No, I do not think so, but it was something that he

wanted to do on behalf of the Queen, who he represents for us in this Province,

as part of a legacy which I think would be very much appreciated, quite frankly,

by the people of the Province. I think it was particularly timely, in light of

the Queen Mother's death this year, that we have something like this to show

the history of our Province, and the people of the Province support this very

much.

So, over and above that one-time expense, I can say that some of the

gardening equipment that broke - the grounds are part of keeping the

Lieutenant-Governor's house. This government made a conscious decision to

support Government House, and you cannot say that you support it without

providing money.

Now, the increase from $24,000 to $66,000 for this one item, again, $15,000

of it was for a book. Some of it was for photocopying. Yes, some of those

expenses are already budgeted but they went over. I suspect some of it was in

relation to this. Some of it may be in relation to the video that also went with

the historical walk-through down Military Road, to show part of the history

associated with the churches and schools, all the way up to Cabot Tower.

The household appliances, I do not think were planned upon. They were things

that happened and had to be addressed. Again, the advertising costs and printing

costs associated with this were things that are one time. The answer is, no, I

do know of any outstanding items other than what is itemized here in the budget

of $24,600.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Madam Minister, in the next category there is a similar

situation occurs and I think perhaps the same answer might apply where, under

section 1.1.01.07., under Property Furnishings and Equipment, we notice that

there was $3,500 allocated but the actual expenditure was $28,500. When you

combine that with the extra $42,000 that was included in the previous vote, and

now we are going to add in here another $25,000 extra, now we are up to

approximately $67,000 spent last year at Government House that was not included

in the budget.

We are not critical of the fact that these things may be needed. All we are

saying is that the budgetary process is supposed to be based on reasonable

expectations of expenditure. Certainly, in doing a budget, you would put in a

certain amount of money for regular maintenance. Fixing the stove, as the

minister said, would be included under some regular maintenance.

I am assuming here that these expenditures that are increased here - the

total amount is about $65,000 - must be for things that were not able to be

predicted, were not able to be included in the budgetary process last year.

Therefore we are asking, again to the minister, if she could explain the

increase under Property, Furnishings and Equipment of an extra $25,000, which is

extra to the $42,000 or $43,000 that we mentioned in the previous vote.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The itemized amount is a short one, actually, and that is that, during last

year, the tractor that was purchased in 1989 had to be replaced. That was at a

cost of $26,500. We used a portion of the amount that was not used and added it

to this. That is why the amount is increased as it is.

Again, anybody who has been to the Government House, or is aware of it, or

would like to become aware of it with this new book, can see that the grounds

are quite extensive. If you were to hire manual help to do the garden, the

flowers, and all the things that make it such a very beautiful historic landmark

for us, it would cost a lot more. This itemized amount increased because it cost

$26,500 to actually replace a 1989 tractor. That accounts for the expenditure

item as it is.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Madam Minister.

Yes, I am well aware of the size of the grounds at Government House. When I

was a university student, one of the jobs I had one summer was actually mowing

the lawns down at Government House, and I enjoyed my summer work there, I should

say.

Madam Minister, I am well aware. The only thing is, I assume that when we

bought the new tractor that we called tenders and that the tenders would have

indicated that we would have gotten the best value for our purchasing dollar.

Madam Minister, I would like to move now to the next section, which is the

Premier's Office. If we look at the totals for the Premier's Office, we note

that last year the Premier put forward a budget to run his office of $1,101,600.

The revised budget says that he actually spent $1,366,500, and this year he

doesn't think he can do it for that amount even; it is going to $1,450,000.

Now, Madam Minister, that is quite an increase. That is an increase of $348,400

from last year. This is occurring, of course, at a time when everybody else is

talking about fiscal restraint. Everybody else is talking about: we have to

bring some commonsense to our expenditures. The minister, and all ministers, are

telling the House everyday: we haven't got anymore money; when the Minister of

Health, last summer, was telling people in this Province we have to cut $20

million out of health care; when the St. John's Health Care Corporation was

told you have find ways to cut $8 million; when we are telling people who need

mammography testing done - as my good colleague, the Member for St. John's

West mentioned today, that because of cutbacks, restraints and waiting lists,

that it is going to take a year, after the doctor goes and says to a lady: you

should have this test done. We have cases where, if you are under fifty years

old, you have to wait for a year - at a time when record numbers of people in

this Province are moving out of the Province. Each year we note that there are

more people moving out than are moving in.

We have had a loss of 40,000 people over the last decade. When all of that is

happening, the Premier of this Province can find an extra $348,400 to run his

office. I am wondering if the minister can find any rationale, any potential

rationale, even a little smidgeon of rationale, one iota that would convince the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador that it is logical, at a time when everybody

else is cutting back; when municipalities have to turn off the lights in their

town to be able to keep within their budget; when you have fishermen out there

who are trying to get by on ten and twelve weeks at their local fish plants

trying to make ends meet; and yet the Premier of the Province says: I cannot run

my office unless I have an extra $348,400 more than I had last year.

Madam Minister, I go back to the campaign slogan of 1996 when this Liberal

government said that the whole thing was about making choices. Remember the

campaign slogan? It was making choices, making decisions. Well, obviously, this

Premier has decided to make some choices. What he is saying is: I have to have

an extra $348,000 more than I was budgeted for last year to run my office; while

the Minister of Health is saying: I have to cut back. While people are being

told: No, there is a waiting list now for certain procedures. Your doctor might

think it is necessary but the waiting list is still there. It is getting longer.

When we have to look at the fact that people are moving out of our Province

every day - when we know that the people who are forced to live on assistance

from the government by way of social benefits, they are told: No, we can't

cover furniture any more. We can't cover some of the things we used to cover

because we can't afford to cover these things for people who have to live on,

I guess, help from the public service or from the public system.

So, Madam Minister, I wonder if you can tell us, in a comprehensive way,

first of all, why is it that in a time of restraint, at a time when we are

telling everybody else, you have to live within your means, that last year the

Premier had a budget of $1,101,600, he spent an extra $235,000, and now this

year he wants to increase it to be $348,000 more than it was last year? There

must be a rationale. We can't have a situation develop where the Premier is

saying one thing to the people of the Province, and then he is saying: I don't

want to follow these rules. These rules are made, cut back everybody else, but

don't cut back in my office. I need almost half-a-million dollars more than I

had last year.

Just to give you some percentages here. The percentages, of course, would

mean that the Premier's Office here has increased by over 20 per cent in one

year. Why, when everybody else is saying cut this and cut that, and the Premier

says, no, I have to have more money?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, I would be happy to speak about the Premier's Office and the

associated expenses. If the member opposite would remember, and I am sure he

would remember the Auditor General's report, one of the recommendations from

the Auditor General was, in fact, that the Premier would charge off his own

travel to his own department. Previously, one of the things that the Premier's

Office did, in part, was associate different travel with line departments. It

was suggested by the Auditor General that we bring it all in-house under the

Premier's Office. Many times it would have been sent to the protocol office,

the appropriate analysis would be done and then it would be reassigned to the

various line departments, like Mines and Energy or whatever. Now, what we have

done, on the recommendation of the Auditor General, is to bring that component

in under the Premier's Office.

Also, I would like to point out that Salaries in the Premier's Office

includes sixteen permanent positions. That has been sort of relatively low

compared to - we don't want to dredge up 1989, and prior days, when we were

looking at twenty-three, twenty-four, twenty-five and twenty-six, all those

kinds of numbers. We have identified sixteen permanent positions and that

includes temporary assistants and overtime as well.

Also, if you want me to speak generically about the Premier's Office, which

I can continue to do, the travel, as I said, is higher than last year, because

the travel that would have been allocated to the line departments, now will be

identified under the budget for the Premier's Office. The fiscal year increase

for 2002-2003 has increased by $348,000 overall. Of this amount, $107,000

relates to salary and $235,000 relates to the travel. This $235,000 that relates

to travel was that which was again realigned to the line departments, and now we

have brought in extra for the Premier's own travel budget. Also, an increase

of $5,800 for supplies because of the predicted increase.

So, the total budget for the Premier's Office is increased for those

reasons, because the travel will be realigned, because of an extra salary, and

also because of the amount for supplies.

If you want, I can also go into the other pieces. If you want to look at

Purchased Services, for example, a portion of why that is increased: As you

know, when Premier Grimes took office he opened up a Grand Falls office, and

items under Purchased Services increased by $6,000, and that was partly to help

set up the office in Grand Falls.

Also, if you look at the Property, Furnishings and Equipment budget, that

increased as well, and that was to help set up the office and supply the

necessary equipment, et cetera, that goes with setting up an office. I think all

of the other amounts are identified without any increases, as you can see in

this vote under the budget, as you identified on page 14 of the Estimates. If

you want any more clarity I will certainly be happy to provide that.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Madam Minister, yes, we do recognize that probably I am

going to take the minister's word that the allocations that have previously

been shown for travel by the Premier - we do know the incidents that have

happened whereby the Premier taking flights all over the nation and

internationally has decided that he would sub-divide it. It was a famous $62,000

expenditure, or something like that. Then you divided that by the number of

people who travelled, and all that kind of nonsense that went on in recent

communications out of the Premier's Office. However, Madam Minister, certainly

if you are saying that the amounts that you have now included in the Premier's

Office for Transportation and Communication, this extra $235,000, then I think

it is incumbent upon the minister to explain to us, and to identify for us,

where the amounts in the other budgets have been decreased. In other words, my

quick glancing the other day indicated to me that I could not find a balance

here. I could not find where, if this amount has gone up in the Premier's

Office, where there is a corresponding decrease in the other offices. Because,

if not, we have just spent an extra $235,000 on travel that we did not spend

last year. W should be able to show in other departments where there has been a

corresponding decrease. If we keep the numbers in the other departments at the

same level, then we have not achieved anything other than to transfer an amount

into the Premier's Office. In other words, we have increased the total

expenditure for travel by an extra $235,000.

Madam Minister, we do note that you did mention Salaries here, in

section

2.1.01.01. You mentioned that it had been increased by a little over $100,000,

from $883,200 to $880,000, which was the actual spent, and then it is $990,000.

That is $107,600. I do believe you said that was because of an extra position

that was added in Grand Falls. I am not quite sure. You mentioned the Grand

Falls number. Maybe you could tell us exactly, Madam Minister, why we have an

increase of $107,600 in the budgetary allocation for Salaries within the Premier's

Office?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That allocation was for a special adviser to the Premier. That position is

not filled currently. As far as I know, it is vacant. I would assume, I am not

making any assumptions for the Premier, but it is unfilled at the moment, so

what I would recommend and I am sure the Premier would concur, is that we

offset, right now, that position, where it is vacant, and offset it towards

savings. That, in fact, would bring our Salary vote for the Premier's Office

down by approximately $100,000, if you add in benefits and all of the other

pieces associated with setting up that office and that sort of thing. It was in

relation to a special adviser to the Premier, not in relation to the Grand Falls

office.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Is the minister now saying that there is no intention on the government's

part to fill that position in this calendar year? It is not the minister's

position to say, I am sure, but her answer indicated that if he does not fill

the position, there would be a decrease of $107,000. That is how I read the

answer, I say to the minister.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Or whatever the appropriate (inaudible).

MR. H. HODDER: Or whatever proportion of the year is left on a pro-rated

basis.

I wanted to move again to the

section on Supplies. We note that last year it

was $19,400 for supplies and you spent $40,000. It is back this year to $25,200

which is a small increase, really, of about $6,000 or $7,000. What happened for

us to expend - the amount here is really a 100 per cent increase more than was

budgeted last year.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think the member opposite may have missed it, but I spoke to that specific

item. I went through each of those items but I certainly have no problem

repeating it again. This piece is in reflection of the Grand Falls office

opening, and there is a slight increase there as it relates to setting up the

office and requiring, obviously, the supplies and the necessary pieces

associated with opening a new office in Grand Falls.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: If I could ask one further question, Madam Minister, it

has to do with

section 09., Allowances and Assistance. It is $20.000. Does this

refer to the amount that the Premier is allocated for his entertainment, or

primarily entertainment he would do in his own home when it is necessary for him

to entertain guests at the public expense in order to conduct public business?

Is this the appropriate allocation where that particular amount is incurred?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This really is a direct response to, I believe it was Premier Peckford who

was the last Premier to actually live in a public residence that was paid for by

the people of the Province. Since, I guess, the Liberal Administration has taken

over, the last Premier being Premier Brian Peckford, we no longer house the

Premier in a private residence with his own private dining room. In relation to

that, there is a stipend in lieu of that and that is the number to which you

refer. We don't do that anymore.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Madam Minister, just recently there was some comment in

the public press to the effect that the $20,000 was the minimum and that the

public purse of this Province is now assuming responsibility for snow clearing

at the Premier's residence, for security at the Premier's residence, for

taking care of lawns and other regular mundane things that any taxpayer would

certainly know about.

Madam Minister, do you have any data which would indicate how much was spent

last year over and above the $20,000 that was allocated? And where in the budget

is there provision this year for the kinds of expenditures that have occurred in

the last year? Like, for example, maintenance of his private property, for

security, for snow clearing and other similar items.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

All of the numbers associated with the Premier's Office are here in this

budget estimate that you are seeing, so all of the amounts would either come out

of the allowances or under a section, for example, that the Premier has access

to like any of the members in the House that would apply to expenses that are

approved and able to be claimed for under his expense. Just like you, under your

MHA allowance, can claim for different things as it relates to a computer or a

camera or whatever it is that you get and you can claim for. The Premier would

only claim for those things that apply to him.

I know there are issues over and above that are often provided, for example.

Oftentimes if he goes to functions that are Liberal functions, that would be

paid for by the Liberal party. What you are seeing in here is covered within the

expenses of what you are seeing, whether it be the $20,000 or any of the other

benefits that any of us can receive as Members of the House of Assembly.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister indicates that there is some commonality in the rules here.

She compares it to the allowance that every member of this House gets, a

constituency allowance; however, I am not aware, in the guidelines for

constituency allowances, where any member is allowed, for example, to charge off

snow clearing for his private residence or for lawn care. I can make an argument

for security to the Premier's person and to his home; however, there is a

difference here. The people of this Province, we are told, have paid for

expenditures at the Premier's residence that are over and above the $20,000

and they would include such things as snow clearing, taking care of his lawn,

this kind of thing. Certainly, I am questioning where the guidelines are, what

guidelines really exist in terms of what will be paid for out of the public

purse to take care of the Premier's property and what will not be paid for.

There are guidelines for MHAs expenditures, but where do we find guidelines

that would tell us if the Premier can have his snow clearing done at public

expense, or he can have his lawn cared for at public expense. Nobody else can

have that. I am not aware of where that is possible for any other member. The

question is: Where does that money come from?

It is nice to say it is all wrapped in this total figure, but certainly

somebody within the department responsible must have allocated money to look

after that. Yet, it is not included here because the public has been told, no,

it is not included in $20,000.

I am just trying to find out where these other expenditures are included.

What are the guidelines that apply to the Premier? Does he have guidelines that

are different from other MHAs? Should he have, is a good question? What else is

included other than the items that I have already mentioned?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I guess the bigger question: Is the Member for Waterford Valley requesting we

go back to the $2 million days of Brian Peckford and Frank Moores when they

lived in their own house and they had their own garden and their own private

dining room? The answer is, Mr. Chair, and I will say again that all of the

information -

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible).

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I never heard what the Member for Bonavista South was

saying but I am sure he will get a chance to ask a question maybe when he gets

to his feet.

But what I will say is that the expenditures here for the Premier's Office

are outlined. It relates to all of the pieces that come out of the public purse.

I would say to the member opposite, this government has no intention of going

back to setting a Premier up in a private residence with a private dining room,

unless the members opposite are suggesting - we moved away from that. In fact,

we are leaving the days when, you know, the cost of running the Premier's

Office was almost as much as it is today. In fact, it is less in some years, and

here we are now talking about twelve, thirteen years later. If you factor in

inflation and salaries, and just the nature of travel, I think it has been very

well contained. I guess the people of the Province will decide whether they

believe it is or it isn't. While I am saying that, the Premier certainly has

benefits for being a Premier, in lieu of the fact that he is not put up in a

publicly paid house with a publicly paid dining room, with access to all kinds

of liquor and cigars and all that sort of thing. He does not get any that stuff.

He does get a stipend for doing that, and members opposite know that we have

moved away from that direction.

What I will say to the member opposite is that what you see here in terms of

the salaries and costs, are the salaries and costs associated with the public

purse, associated with being a Premier; and the Premier is an MHA as well, as

members opposite said, and he has access to claiming different charges, as do

all of us, if they meet the requirements. I would say to the member opposite,

the numbers here are reflective of the cost of running the Premier's Office.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, we are not saying that the Premier should have, shall we say,

not some flexibility. He should have flexibility. He is the Premier of the

Province. However, what we are saying is that if that flexibility is there, then

it has to be publicly accountable. I would like to refer the minister to what

was said in the Speech from the Throne on page 5. It says: "...My

Government's commitment to a greater level of openness and

accountability." Also, it says the real hallmark of this government is

supposed to be real accountability. It is page 5, and it says that this

government will disclose almost everything that can be disclosed. All I am

saying is, if we are going to pay for certain things for the Premier's private

home, then don't give me a rationale of what was done twenty years ago.

I have Harold Horwood's book here and I could quote you what was done in

1968, in Joey's day. I do read a lot of history. I could quote you back forty

years ago, if you want to go back forty years ago. That is not a problem.

However, what we are talking about today in this world, in 2002, the Premier has

said: (

a) he is going to run a government that is very open, very accountable

and he is going to disclose everything in terms of the public's right to know.

However, I say to the minister, when we hear stories of the Premier using the

public Treasury for regular mundane things, like having his driveway cleared of

snow, we get concerned. All we ask you today is that there must be guidelines,

breakdowns or some way of telling us what items are paid for out of the public

Treasury in terms of the Premier's expenses and what items are excluded.

We know, for example, there are guidelines for MHAs. If I were to submit an

invoice to the Speaker's officer for cleaning my driveway, it would get turned

down; and so it should. However, if I am travelling on member's business then

certainly there is an rationale that that would be included. So, I say to the

minister, when the Speech from the Throne talked about real accountability and

talked about openness, we are now saying to the minister: Here is the

opportunity for you to tell us what the guidelines are in terms of what will be

paid for out of the public purse and what will not be paid for out of the public

purse.

I ask the minister: Is there a set of guidelines that apply exclusively to

the Premier? We know he has expenditures because we know the Treasury has

already paid for them, like snow clearing, lawn care and this kind of thing. We

are saying to the minister: Is there a set of guidelines that apply to the

Premier's Office, and is there expenditures that are different from these

which apply to ordinary MHAs?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Chair, what I will say to the member opposite again

is that the public purse, as it relates to the cost of the Premier's Office,

is identified right here. What is provided for the Premier is a stipend of

$20,000; which does not mean that we provide the Premier to live in a private

residence with his own private dining room, as has been the past.

Now the member said: Let's not talk about the past. Let's forget the past

and let's move on. I am glad to hear that. I am glad to hear that we are

moving on because everyday of the week we hear about the past. So it is good to

hear him and his party talking about moving forward. What I will say is that we

will not delve on the past. We will not delve on the fact that our Premier does

not live in a house that is paid by the public. We will not delve on the fact

that he does not have a private dining room, and we will not delve on the fact

that he does not have certain expenses. What we will say is that - for the

people of the Province, in the Estimates that is tabled before all the people of

the Province - the cost of the Premier's Office, as it relates to salaries,

travel, allowances, assistance, everything is identified here. I spoke to the

rationale for the increases as it relates to salaries, extra travel for the line

departments, and it is all here.

Mr. Chair, again, as I pointed out, the amount is here for the people of the

Province and the expenditure from the public purse is recorded here in these

Estimates.

CHAIR: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am pleased to stand to participate in the debate on the Budget, in

particular dealing with Executive Council which deals with the Premier's

Office and the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs Office as well.

I have been listening with some interest to the Minister of Finance's

responses to the questions relayed to her by the Member for Waterford Valley. In

particular, she talks about, you know: Let's not talk about the past. Let me

put in context some of the statements that she made, and then I have some

questions as well.

In 1989 there was a review of government expenditures that occurred. Former

Premier Clyde Wells undertook to have a look at what where legitimate and bona

fide expenses. In the process of doing that, a number of recommendations and

decisions were made. First of all, the dining room which was put in place by

former Premier Smallwood, I guess used by both former Premiers, Frank Moores and

Brian Peckford, it was decided at that point in time that public policy dictated

it would be good public policy - and I believe it was good public policy - that

that dining room should be closed.

Secondly, one of the other issues that was dealt with, as well, was that

there was a residence on Mount Scio called Mount Scio House, for example, that

was designed or there for the purpose and use exclusively of the Premier,

whatever political stripe. At that time as well, it was decided that the cost of

running that - we could turn it into offices; good public policy. Let's

remember, I suppose, that in lieu of giving that up a decision was made that

$20,000 be given, carte blanche, to the Premier, whoever he or she may be, of

whatever political stripe, for home costs and entertainment.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: No. I am just putting it in a historical context for those

who may be watching the debate or for those in the House who may not be aware of

it.

Another decision that was made in 1989 was that every minister in government

was entitled to a government car. There was a huge issue, in 1988-1989, prior to

the election, made about that, by some of my hon. colleagues across the way. So,

a decision was made that the issuance to ministers of government cars would be

gone. In essence, what it was replaced by was an $8,000 car allowance per

minister, which certainly more than covers any legitimate or bona fide expense

for any reasonable car over a period of a year in terms of car payments. So,

while we took the physical aspect of it away, the government of the day -

certainly I am not disputing or debating it, I am just putting it in context,

that at that time the means for ministers to still enjoy the privileges of a car

or whatever the case may be, it being paid for, certainly was provided.

I have also noticed with interest, in looking in the Estimates, the Premier's

salary details and the Premier's expenditure - what I am more interested in is

what is not there, as opposed to what is there. I say to the Minister of

Finance, that according to the Salary Details and the statements that you have

made today, you say there were fourteen people working out of the Premier's

Office.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Sixteen.

MR. E. BYRNE: Sixteen.

Now, nowhere in the Salary Details, for example, in the Budget - my estimate

is there are twenty based on the knowledge that I have. Now, they could be put

somewhere else, but I would like to know where they are because I cannot find

them in the Budget. For example, the Premier has two people, from what I

understand, who work as executive assistants in the district office.

AN HON. MEMBER: Two?

MR. E. BYRNE: Two people, in his district office, that is my

understanding. Now, on top of that -

AN HON. MEMBER: How many do we get?

MR. E. BYRNE: Hold on now. On top of that, I say to my colleague, there

is also a government office, a Grand Falls office. There are two people working

in the Grand Falls office. So, I wonder if the minister could tell us who those

people are; that is four people. There is a Grand Falls office. I guess that is

to be enjoyed by all people in the region. I do not know, maybe the Minister of

Labour has an office that she operates out of there. I don't know.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: One second. I am getting to all of that, I say to my

colleague. Just hang on to your horses. All the questions will come out, and the

answers, and we will see what they are.

There is a government office for the Premier, I suppose, where two people

work out of, and then he has a district office where another two people work out

of. Where would I find those in the budget?

Again I am not saying that there should not be; I am just asking the

question. In Corner Brook, for example, the Premier has an office in the Sir

Richard Squires building in Corner Brook. How many people work out of that

office? The Member for Bay of Islands, as Parliamentary Assistant to the

Premier, has an office there, and so he should, he is Parliamentary Assistant to

the Premier. Does the Member for Humber East, for example, work out of that

office as well? How many staff are there? Why aren't they included in the

Premier's Office total salary budget, for example?

Mr. Chair, these are legitimate questions, I think, that need to be asked.

Certainly a government office in Corner Brook, I say to the Minister of Works,

Services, and Transportation, does not fall under the auspices of the House of

Assembly. If it does, I can tell you this: the next IEC meeting is going to be a

very interesting one, if that is the case; but I do not think it does, and nor

should it.

The question I ask the minister in terms of some of the observations that I

have put forward: for example, there is special projects, and you may have dealt

with this already. Former Chief of Staff of the Premier, a former minister in

this House, a person that I had a good working relationship with certainly in

the capacity in dealing with issues in my own district, does he fall under the

Premier's staff as listed here or does that person work outside in another

department, or does that money come from both him and the personal assistant or

administrative assistant that works with him? Does that fall under the auspices

of the Premier's office? Because, if that is the case, there are twenty

people, not sixteen, who work out of the Premier's Office. I just pose a few

of those questions before I get into the remainder of the debate dealing with

Executive Council.

I will say this: what is interesting about the budget in Executive Council,

if you take time to go through it, if you look at it and compare it to every

other department in government, this is the one department that clearly -

because it is what we are about to vote upon - that clearly has not come under

the 8 per cent reduction in operating costs, which was an initiative launched by

the minister's department, and a 5 per cent reduction in wage costs. This is

the one area that, if you look at it, compare it to last year's budget, what

was projected, what was actually spent, then what is projected this year, the

total budget for Executive Council as compared to last year, over $1 million

extra is being requested of this House. We will get to that in each section,

subhead by subhead, to the minister's department. We will not get to all of it

today, but we will get through some of it today.

I will just make that general comment, that it is striking and it is very

revealing at the same time, that while every department in government, including

members here in the House of Assembly, for example, had no choice, really, but

to obey the directives as set down by the Minister of Finance and President of

Treasury Board in leading up to the actual Budget day, that every department in

government was asked on the one hand, and was expected on the other, to adhere

to and find that 8 per cent on operating costs in each of their budgets and 5

per cent on wages.

Executive Council is the only exception, the only exception that I can find.

There may be some others, and the minister may like to point them out; but, in

pointing them out, she has to acknowledge that Executive Council certainly is

one of the exceptions to that rule and directive that Treasury Board has put

forward. We will get a chance to debate that.

I will sit down for a moment and give the minister an opportunity to answer

some of the questions of where all of the people who work either directly or

indirectly for the Premier, where we can find them all, and I can stress the

words: all in this Budget.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MR. FITZGERALD: Give us you confession.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you.

I say to the Member for Bonavista South, I will do a confession and I will do

an historical confession. Everybody gave a little historical preview and I would

like an opportunity to do the same thing too.

Talk about the $20,000 allocation for the Premier. I think that is an

important piece, and the member opposite talked about the car allowance and why

those things are important. I think it is important for the people of the

Province to understand how we have gotten from here to where we are now, because

it is important. Let me give you just this one example. I guess you could call

it Peckford's perks or you can just call it history if you want, but it is

important because it puts in perspective why we have moved from where we were to

where we are today. Members opposite may not want to hear it, but it is

important for the people of the Province. It speaks to a history that all of you

speak to from time to time, and I think it is important for the people of the

Province.

Let's just talk about why the Premier gets an allocation of $20,000 for all

of the costs associated with living in his own home. One of the reasons was

because one of the amounts tabled for Mount Scio House, which is where the

Premier of the day, Premier Peckford, lived, included costs of $118,000 for

redecorating; $3,500 for a housekeeper's apartment; $44,000 for four security

guards; $9,600 for one housekeeper, and $9,100 for one domestic worker. That is

one of the reasons we moved from where we were to where we are today.

Now, let's move a little bit further along and talk about later on when we

talked about the cost of Premier Peckford's private dining room, and why we

have moved to providing a private dining room and a house at the public expense

to where we are today. That was because the cost for one year of the private

dining room cost the taxpayers of our Province $19,000 alone for the meals; but,

of course, the chef who did the fine dining meals, was at a cost of $22,000.

That is approximately a $40,000 charge just for the dining room expenses. That

is why the people of the Province need to know we have moved from there to where

we are now.

It goes on and on. For example, expenses associated with the Premier of the

day in 1988, which was again Premier Peckford, before his exit to Vancouver,

spent over $200,000: $67,000 for a personal bodyguard; $9,000 or $10,000 for a

four-wheel drive Blazer; $6,000 for the Tory party statement; $47,000 for food,

drink and dry cleaning. Again, we could move on and on. There is the cost of the

private dining room at the weekly cost of $1,500 a week to operate; renovations

to the Premier's suite, which cost $500,000. This is part of the history that

the people of the Province obviously can appreciate, that shows why we have

moved from where we were to where we are now.

The member opposite also speaks to some questions that are related to the

number of people. I will not go on with the rest of these indications in 1989

about furniture purchased for the Premier's office of the day, or any of those

pieces, because I think the point is made that we have moved from where we were

to where we are today. We like where we are today, with moving away from

providing a publicly paid for house in Mount Scio with enormous expenses, to one

where we have a stipend for all of the costs associated with being Premier of

the Province and all the extra responsibilities that are associated with that.

I would say to the member opposite that - I notice he never used a name, and

I respect that when you ask a question - I will provide for him the names of the

people he is asking for associated with the offices because I think it is

important.

I can clarify one issue. I already answered it for the Member for Waterford

Valley, but I will answer it again. You talked about the special adviser, who

was a minister of this House, and who is former Chief of Staff for the Province,

who served a very integral role in government. I can speak to that one

particular point. That particular individual held the special advisory position,

which is no longer filled. That is a vacant position. It is the Premier's

discretion whether it would be filled, but my view would be that if it is not

filled - and perhaps it will not be - that it will be used to offset the savings

associated with Executive Council.

I also can say to the members opposite, to the Member for Kilbride, that the

Executive Council will achieve its 8 per cent and 5 per cent savings as a whole

here. There are pieces like - and I will raise this specifically - we did not

apply the 8 per cent and 5 per cent to the Lieutenant-Governor's house but we

achieved the overall savings through the vote of Executive Council. That is how

we have achieved - if you look at all of the listing of the various components

of Executive Council, we will achieve the 8 per cent and 5 per cent from that

area. We made a conscious decision to do that, but that is not to eliminate or

to rule out the possibility that all of these various components of Executive

Council will be asked to conduct their business as frugally as possible and to

try to even offset further savings if possible through reductions in their

services and program areas. We will ask them all to do that. So the 8 per cent

and 5 per cent will be achieved.

I also would say to the Member for Kilbride that some of the people he

referred to would come out of the Premier's constituency fund and not out of

the Premier's Office. Again, I will identify that for his Grand Falls

constituency office, for the member opposite, because he kind of rolled all that

into one.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Constituency office.

Again, I would say that throughout - and when a member is looking at how we

have calculated these reductions - remember, we have a 5 per cent increase added

on to the Budget from last year, and this year there is a 3.75 per cent

increase. It applies to six months of the year because of the way of the 2.5 per

cent and 2.5 per cent apply to government departments. So, the 5 per cent was

reduced from last year, but you will see an increase of 3.75 per cent because of

the compounding associated with the two increases over a six-month period this

year.

CHAIR: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to pose some of the questions I asked before. I appreciate the

minister's comments. Certainly, in naming the positions that I have - and the

people who are employed in them are not the subject of my inquiry this

afternoon, nor should they be. These are my fellow citizens in the Province who

are performing their jobs and roles as their political bosses and superiors have

asked them to do.

The point I want to make is that there has been an impression left by the

minister, whether rightly or wrongly - that will be determined throughout the

course of the debate - that there are only sixteen people working in the Premier's

Office. Here is what I have, I say to the Minister of Finance: director of

communications; chief of staff; secretary; assistant to the chief of staff;

director of operations; director of finance administration; executive assistant

in the district office; executive assistant in the district office. For the

record, not many of us - and I believe including the Premier, in terms of

district allowances - have the ability to hire two full-time people under

district allowances because it would not allow for anything else to do. So it is

a legitimate and bonafide question. On top of that, there is an administrative

assistant; reception-secretary; communications special assistant, which drives

the Premier; special assistant in Corner Brook; political assistant; secretary;

executive assistant; another executive assistant; political assistant, who works

out of the eighth floor but I believe it is paid for by the government member's

budget, but that person actually works out of the Premier's Office, so that is

an important consideration; special projects person; secretary; executive

assistant to Grand Falls office; secretary to Grand Falls Office; and a cleaner

who works on the eighth f