April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2203 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Monday, April 16, 1973 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 o'clock.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: NOTICES OF MOTION MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I would li ke to give notice that tomorrow I intend to present to this Legislature for first reading The Alberta Property Tax Reduction Act. head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill No. 45 The Alberta Educational Communications Corporation Act MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce an important bill, being The Alberta Educational Communications Corporation Act.

Not only will this major new piece of legislation ensure a continuation of many worthwhile radio and television activities which Albertans have come to appreciate on CKUA radio and through the CARET and MEETA regional television concepts, but also it will provide a framework for possible future expansion of these and other unique broadcasting services to the people of Alberta. [Leave being granted, Bill No. 45 was introduced and read a first time.] head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS MR. DIACHUK: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to introduce to you and through you to the members of the Assembly some visitors, guests, in your gallery. It is indeed a pleasure and a privilege to introduce a guest who is visiting the Ukrainian Catholic parishes in Edmonton and Alberta, His Eminence Cardinal Archbishop Joseph Slipyj from Rome, accompanied by His Excellence Bishop Savaryn the Edmonton Bishop, and His Excellence Bishop Andrew from Saskatoon. Also accompanying these three d ignitaries are members of the committee, headed by Dr. Snihurowych.

I would ask them to please stand and be recognized by the Assembly. MRS. CHICHAK: It is indeed an honour and a privilege for me today to welcome to this Assembly his Eminence, Archbishop Major, and Cardinal of the Ukrainian Catholic Church at large, His Eminence Cardinal Slipyj. On the occasion of your historic visit to our city and your presence at our Legislative Assembly, it is a great privilege for me to welcome you among us. [Continued on last page of this Hansard]

43-2204 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. DOAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly, 33 Grade 10 and 12 social studies students from the western part of my constituency, from a school named the Spruce View School. They are accompanied by two of their teachers, Mrs. Jean Weltz and Mr. Roy Hoven, as well as their bus driver, Mr. Ted Black. We are very glad to have them with us today, Mr. Speaker. They are seated in the members gallery. I would ask them to stand and be recognized. MR. YURKO: Mr.

Speaker, I have the pleasure of introducing today to you, sir, and to the Assembly, 13 members of the 92 Girl Guide Company from the constituency of Edmonton Gold Bar which I represent. They are here with their leader, Mrs. E. Wilke, and I'd ask them to stand and be recognized by the Assembly. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure today to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Legislative Assembly, 40 Grade 8 and 9 students from the Lavoy School in my constituency. They are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Spak and Mr. Kuchik and their bus operator, Mr. A. Kotyshen.

I would ask that the students, teachers and bus operator rise and be recognized by the House. MR. JAMISON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly 38 Grade 9 students from the Sturgeon Heights School, located in my constituency. They are accompanied today by Mrs. E. King and Mr. J. Kieser and I ask that they stand and be recognized by this Assembly. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to introduce to you, sir, and to the members of the Assembly a group of junior high school students from the constituency of Edmonton Parkallen.

They come from Avalon Junior High School in the constituency I represent. They are accompanied today by their teacher, Mr. N. Lopatka, and there are, I believe, 23 students who have just had a tour of the building and will now be watching the proceedings of the Assembly. I ask them to rise and be recognized. head: ORAL QU ESTION PERIOD Dow Chemical Plant MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Premier.

I wonder if the Premier could advise the House as to the nature of the subsidies or other financial considerations that have apparently been extended to Dow Chemical in return for the construction of a chemical plant in the province? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I'd refer that question to the hon. Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. PEACOCK: Mr. Speaker, at this time, with the conditions that are now existent, I don't think it is in the best public interest to have any open discussion in regard to the discussions we are having, not only with Dow, but with a number of chemical people. MR.

HENDERSON: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the minister could advise the House as to whether the government even has a commitment from Dow Chemical to build a plant -- a commitment in principle to build a plant in Alberta?

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2205 MR. PEACOCK: Mr. Speaker, I just stated to the hon. member that at this time I don't think it is in the public interest of the citizens of Alberta to make any statement in public regarding our negotiations with Dow or any other company. MR. HENDERSON: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. When the government does make the announcement, will all the financial considerations be made public at that time? MR. PEACOCK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Camrose, followed by the hon. Member for Spirit River- Fairview. Manitou Stone MR. STROMBERG: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation. The Manitou Stone that originated out of Killam and has been for a good number of years in Toronto, is it being shipped out to the Provincial Archives now? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, that question probably is based on the radio broadcast on CFCW. It has arrived in Alberta and the government is considering an official opening for exhibition of the Manitou Stone at the local Provincial Museum and Archives. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary Bow. Firenza Automobiles MR.

NOTLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs. Can the minister advise the House whether he or his department has received any complaints as yet from owners of Firenza automobiles marketed by General Motors agencies? MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, the answer to that question is no, not directly in my office. There has been some communication with the consumer affairs branch and I have had discussions with a couple of owners of Firenzas.

I understand the federal minister has indicated publicly that he believes groups such as the Firenza group should have access to joint action rather than having the company deal with them directly. I did hear also today on a news report that General Motors Corporation has awarded a $250 per owner grant to anybody who is the first owner and still owns a Firenza. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. Can the minister tell the House whether his department has a record of the number of Firenzas sold in the province of Alberta? MR. DOWLING: Mr.

Speaker, I doubt that information is there but they do have a record of the number of complaints if it is that specific question the hon. member is asking. I would be happy to furnish both pieces of information for him probably by tomorrow.

43-2206 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. NOTLEY: One final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In the light of the organization of Firenza owners in Ontario, is your department taking any steps to monitor the activities of that organization and find out what is going on in Ontario on this particular matter? MR. DOWLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the organization of the consumers branch of the department is keeping in very close touch with every activity in that regard. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Bow, followed by the hon. Member for Sedgewick- Coronation. Crime Inquiries MR. WILSON: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Attorney General. Is the Attorney General's department prepared to meet with the federal justice minister to examine ways of protecting innocent victims of slanderous allegations made at provincial crime inquiries? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any suggestion that there be such a meeting. Certainly we are prepared to discuss any of these topics with either the Minister of Justice, or other provincial Attorneys General, but certainly there have been no steps taken to this time to hold or arrange for such a meeting. MR.

WILSON: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Do you propose any action in — MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. member direct his question to the Chair, please. MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Attorney General. Does the Attorney General's department propose any action to give individuals in Alberta protection against wild accusations made at provincial inquiries? MR. LEITCH: When the hon. member, Mr. Speaker, refers to provincial inquiries, Mr. Speaker, I assume he is talking of proceedings before courts as well as other tribunals. At this time, Mr.

Speaker, there is no action proposed by the Attorney General's department along the lines the hon. member suggests. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Sedgewick-Coronation, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary McCall. Social Assistance Eligibility MR. SORENSON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Has the hon. minister any plans for tightening eligibility of persons applying for social assistance? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, no wide-ranging changes are planned in the ground rules at the present time.

But as I have indicated to the House on several earlier occasions, the government has, since the publication last year of a background paper on public assistance, been seeking the views of Albertans and has obtained a large number of briefs in response, relating to the views of municipalities and many other organizations and individuals in that connection. As a result of

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2207 those representations, we expect policy statements to be made during the course of this year that may well include the area of interest to the hon. member. MR. SORENSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Does the hon. minister plan any further steps to track down absent fathers who have abandoned their families to welfare, absent mothers included? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, this is a very difficult area, of course, of administration of laws and regulations which are not the most pleasant type for either the enforcers or enforcees to contemplate.

They are usually made the subject -- on the part of quite a number of people who would seek to avoid their responsibility - - all sorts of interesting ways of avoiding those responsibilities including leaving the jurisdiction and the like. I think the government wants to bear in mind that there is always a balance to be maintained between the energy with which various laws are enforced and the amount of benefit that might be seen to come to the public generally or to the individuals involved as a result of that.

There is no doubt that sometimes the enforcement procedure is directly contributed to by people's personal feelings of animosity as a result of the fact that the family may have broken up. The government does maintain a program of collecting arrears from fathers who have left wives and families behind and on the whole I think it would have to be said that the return received from the collection proceedings is a reasonable one.

In concluding, in answer to the hon. member, I would just say the attitude toward whether or not that type of enforcement which is producing, I believe, a reasonable return, should be escalated is something always under consideration, but there are no special plans at the present time to get tougher. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary McCall, followed by the hon. Member for Drumheller. Alberta Securities Commission MR. HO LEM: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the hon. Attorney General. Is the hon.

Attorney General prepared to meet with the representatives of a committee of shareholders of the Cosmopolitan Life, Sioux Holdings, Balmoral Development Enterprises and Rocky Holdings to discuss their request for a judicial inquiry into the allegations of a $5 million swindle? MR. LEITCH: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. HO LEM: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is it true that the hon. Attorney General -- is it true sir, that two committee members have made several unsuccessful attempts to meet with you since mid-January to supply you with documents pertaining to these allegations? MR. LEITCH: No, Mr.

Speaker, I did receive a letter from persons representing the steering committee of the shareholders which I delayed responding to because at that time we were examining the possibility of laying criminal charges as I indicated in the House last week, and that, in fact we are still doing. But I had hoped that the decision would be made earlier than it now can be made and I wanted to have that decision made before responding to them, because what courses of action are open to us at this time will depend to a considerable extent on whether such charges are laid. MR. HO LEM: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the hon.

Attorney General. Have you been briefed by your department --

43-2208 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. SPEAKER: Will the hon. member please address his question to the Chair. MR. HO LEM: Yes, has the hon. Attorney General been briefed by your department officials regarding a meeting of the committee with RCMP investigators, security commission representatives from British Columbia, Ontario and Alberta, national revenue special investigators, and other special investigators? And practically all have agreed that there -- MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member making an announcement or could he come directly to the question? MR.

HO LEM: -- and they have agreed that there is a contravention of the law. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. member's question is out of order. It is obviously a statement. The hon. Member for Drumheller, followed by the hon. Member for Vermilion- Viking. MR. NOTLEY: A question, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the hon. Attorney General when we can expect a response to Written Question No. 224 in light of the shareholders meeting last weekend? MR. LEITCH: I don't know, Mr.

Speaker, the connection between the two, but we are working on Question 224 and I would be hopeful of filing an answer to that in the very near future. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Drumheller, followed by the hon. Member for Vermilion- Viking. Day Passes for Mental Patients MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development. Is the government considering a new program of day passes for patients in mental hospitals? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I don't know if any of the major institutions are contemplating a new program.

I'm certain that under existing guidelines that type of program does exist, but if there are policy changes in the wind in that regard I can check into it for the hon. member. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Vermilion-Viking, followed by the hon. Member for Lethbridge East. CRTC Board MR. COOPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. As a result of a vacancy on the Canadian Radio- Television Commission has the hon. minister considered recommending to the federal government that an Albertan be considered for such a postion?

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2209 MR. GETTY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. COOPER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the hon. minister give consideration to recommending a woman to the nearly all-male board? MR. GETTY: It's an extremely good idea, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lethbridge East, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View. Wiretapping MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Attorney General. Have you or officials in -- MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. member please address his question to the Chair. MR.

ANDERSON: To the hon. minister, have you or your officials in your department been consulted by the federal Minister of Justice regarding revisions to the federal government's bill limiting the use of wiretapping? MR. LEITCH: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I couldn't catch all the hon. member's question. MR. ANDERSON: To the hon. minister, have you or officials in your department been consulted by the federal Minister of Justice regarding revisions to the federal government's bill limiting the use of wiretapping? MR. LEITCH: There have been no discussions, Mr. Speaker, that I'm aware of since we took office.

There may, however, have been some discussions prior to that time, because my memory is that those provisions have been at least in the talking stage by the federal government for some lengthy period of time. MR. ANDERSON: Did your department take -- MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. member please address the supplementary to the Chair. MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. minister advise the House, did your department take any initiative to comment on the bill to the federal minister before it was rein troduced? MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, with respect, it would seem to me that the answer to the first question also answers the supplementary. But to repeat it there have been, to my knowledge, no communications between the Attorney General's Department and the Minister of Justice or members of his department since this government took office regarding that particular piece of legislation.

43-2210 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View, followed by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. Legal Aid Fund MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Attorney General a question whether he has delegated the administration of the Legal Aid Fund to the Law Society beyond any control of anyone in his department? MR. LEITCH: No, Mr. Speaker. The administration of the Legal Aid Fund is by a joint committee on legal aid which is composed of members of the Law Society and appointees of the provincial government. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, would the hon.

Attorney General advise whether he has retained any direct responsibility for the efficient administration of that fund? MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. Attorney General wishes to answer the question it's probably in order. The first question, I might say, on which the supplementary was based was couched in the form of an accusation rather than a question. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, it would be my view that since these are government funds that are being expended the government would, in one form or another, always have a responsibility with respect to how they were expended. MR. LUDWIG: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Has the Attorney General received any complaints from either previous members of his department or from any of the members in the legal profession as to the manner in which the fund is being administered? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I have had one discussion, I think, since coming into office, with a member of the legal profession who suggested that there ought to be some changes in the procedures used to select lawyers who were being directed by Legal Aid to act for persons who had received the legal aid certificates.

But that is the only conversation or contact which I can recall, with anyone within the profession or within the department concerning the particular administration of the fund. I have had discussions with the chairman of the joint Legal Aid Committee with whom I discussed, generally, matters of administration and the fund and its operation in a general way. MR. TAYLOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the hon. minister considering at this time the expansion of legal aid to include serious offences under The Highway Traffic Act? MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, it is my memory that there are unlikely any breaches of provincial statutes that would call for legal aid, but I would really want to check that because we have just recently entered into an agreement with the federal government. As I recall it, one of the terms of the agreement provides that legal aid shall be available whenever there is a risk of a serious sentence. It may be that within the terms of that agreement those charged with some provincial offences would be entitled to receive legal aid. But I would have to check it.

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2211 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary Bow. Continental Trucking MR. NOTLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Manpower and Labour. It is really a follow-up to a question I raised last week. It concerns the employees of the now defunct Continental Trucking. He was going to look into whether or not they received their severance pay. I am wondering whether he can report today to the Legislature? DR. HOHOL: Mr.

Speaker, I will have the information before the session closes for the Easter break. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Bow, followed by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. Coal Pipeline MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals. Has the minister had an opportunity to meet with the president of Interprovincial Pipeline Company to discuss his proposal that Alberta coal could be moved in a slurry form by pipeline to electrical power producers in central Canada, and that it could be competitive with U.S. coal? MR. DICKIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to announce that we have had a preliminary telephone conversation discussing this question raised by the hon. member. I think it would be desirable now if we could follow up that telephone conversation with further meetings. MR. WILSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the Department of Mines and Minerals prepared to revive government-sponsored research into the concept of moving coal by pipeline in slurry form initially started by the Alberta Research Council? MR. DICKIE: Mr. Speaker, perhaps that is a difficult question to answer at this time.

Certainly there have been programs in the past providing for research for coal slurry pipelines, and I would say again that submissions will be made to give consideration to that question. MR. WILSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Does the Department of Mines and Minerals -- MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member wish to hear the supplementary answer of the hon. Minister of Industry and Commerce? MR. PEACOCK: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to add for the information of the House that research is already being carried on fairly extensively in industry and in a government-promoted program in regard to the moving of coal in slurry pipelines. The House is well aware that we are already moving coal on a slurry basis now. MR. WILSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Industry and Commerce and/or the Minister of Mines and Minerals. Does the Alberta government have

43-2212 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 access to the research done on the movement of coal in a slurry form by the Saskatchewan Research Council? MR. PEACOCK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Constitutionality of Gas Exports MR. HENDERSON: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address the question to the Premier, and it's by way of clarification on an issue raised in the House last week to the effect that the government has had the constitutionality, the constitutional aspects of restricting the export of gas on freehold leases, restricting export from the province -- has the government checked this aspect of it and believes there is no cause for concern? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I don't think I want to go beyond my answer to the hon. Leader of the Opposition which I believe I gave on Friday.

We believe that we are in a sound constitutional position with regard to that matter but we also recognize that insofar as freehold is concerned, there is a difference. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hansard MR. SPEAKER: Might I just mention to the House that the Hansard for Friday afternoon has been produced in a somewhat different form. We have been trying to get into photo typesetting.

Hon. members may notice that there may be some improvement required in the spacing but we would like eventually, depending on the reactions of hon. members and the possible costs, as well as the turnaround time which is our big problem now, to produce Hansard in this new form if we can achieve it. head: MINISTERIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS MR. PEACOCK: Mr.

Speaker, as the members are all well aware, the decisions as to who receives loans, tourist or otherwise, from the Alberta Opportunity Company are determined by the Board of Directors, as I have mentioned in this House previously, and of that Crown corporation and not by the government. This morning, after reading over the charges made by the Leader of the Opposition outside the House regarding the dealings by directors of the Alberta Housing Corporation with the Alberta Opportunity Company, I have made inquiries of the Crown corporation.

I have also had inquiries made with regard to the directors of the Alberta Housing Corporation and my information is that no director of the Alberta Housing Corporation has applied for or has received any loan either directly or indirectly from the Alberta Opportunity Company. In short, Mr. Speaker, this tactic is again without foundation. [Mr. Speaker left the Chair.] * * * [Mr. Diachuk in the Chair] head: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee of Supply will come to order.

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2213 Executive Council (Cont.) Northern Development (Cont.) Appropriation 1419 Northern Development Group (Cont.) MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if perhaps we could have some reconciliation between two statements made on Friday. It may have been a misunderstanding on my part, but as I recall, the minister in charge of Northern Development led me to believe that the government had not as yet received any submission from the Indian Association and Syncrude for the development of native training in the tar sands area. Then on the other hand, when the hon.

Minister of Advanced Education spoke, it was my understanding that there had, in fact, been a report which had been given some consideration. So I am wondering, if there is a reconciliation of those two statements, I’d like for the sake of clarification to find out before proceeding. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I think possibly we should clarify that. There are two submissions, an earlier one by the Indian Association that we have and the second one that was presented to the federal government. That is the one I was referring to that we did not have officially as yet.

But we do have one that was presented to the committee, headed by the hon. Minister of Advanced Education. MR. NOTLEY: Can I just ask you to explain what you mean by "officially?" MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Notley, would you please address the Chair? MR. NOTLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I will be glad to. Mr. Chairman, can the minister advise us what he means by "officially"? Have you had unofficial discussions with the Indian Association or with Syncrude respecting this proposal? Or have you not received it at all? MR. ADAIR: I have not received it at all.

We have had some discussions by some of the people in government with the Indian Association. MR. DIACHUK: No further questions? We have agreement on -- MR. BARTON: I was wondering where this Vote 1420 came from, last year, on -- MR. DIACHUK: Can we finish 1419, please? Do you want to hold your question until 1420, Mr. Barton? MR. BARTON: I've got a few questions. I was wondering if the hon. minister would answer them or should -- on this particular vote on 1419? MR. DIACHUK: Go ahead.

43-2214 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. BARTON: Are there any plans for wilderness parks in the northern area? MR. ADAIR: Would you repeat that again? MR. BARTON: Has your department looked at any wilderness parks in the northern area? MR. ADAIR: Certainly that would come under the parks department and we have had some inquiries about wilderness parks. As a matter of fact, I had another one today. We pass them on to the parks department for further consideration and we will be working with them. MR. BARTON: Geographically what area are you responsible for -- 55 parallel north? Or has this been designed? MR.

ADAIR: It hasn't been designed but under the old Northern Development Advisory Council it was the 55 parallel north. We would like to consider it Highway 16. MR. BARTON: Is that -- MR. DIACHUK: Mr. Barton and the hon. minister, would you please address the Chair. You are carrying on a dialogue again. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, would that also include future agreements with the federal government in this area for northern development? Highway 16 north? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, that's something we can take under consideration. MR. BARTON: Mr.

Chairman, would the hon. minister be able to table any final reports on evaluations they have done over the last 20 months with the DREE program and the Special Area program? Because they are two separate programs. MR. ADAIR: There are two areas, Mr. Chairman, we are looking at. One was in the area of what the co-operatives were doing, and how we could assist the Department of Agriculture in that particular area. And, of course, taking a look at the program, for the overall picture, we haven't finished those yet. As soon as we do, we would certainly like to table. MR.

BARTON: In other words, you have no evaluations done on the DREE program or the Special Areas program, Mr. Chairman? MR. ADAIR: Not within my office. MR. BARTON: Are there any northern road studies being conducted by your department at the present time, Mr. Chairman?

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2215 MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, not in addition to the one that was done before. MR. DIACHUK: Agreed on 1419? MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, I didn't hear the last statement. MR. ADAIR: I said, Mr. Chairman, not by my office, not any additional to the one that was done previously. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. minister for continuing the program that I had quite a bit to do with and I was wondering if he were willing to expand it and use the east-west lateral to the northern transportation study as a negotiating factor with DREE? MR. ADAIR: We are certainly using, Mr.

Chairman -- the information that was available to us previously -- and we will consider that. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, has your department -- or I'd urge your department to do a study on an east-west lateral out of Lac La Biche, being that the Department of Highways hasn't conducted one and I think it would open up quite a potential recreational area. I'd appreciate your comments on this, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I'd be quite happy to consider that. We are, in addition to the transportation area, hopefully going to be taking a look at quite a number of areas in the northern part of the province.

And I might just relate a few of those. Of course we have the policy relating -- or we are looking at some changes we would like to make within the office of hunting and fishing lodges in the northern part of the province, the transportation and, of course, further negotiations with, and through the office of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs with the federal government. MR. DIACHUK: Agreed on 1419? Appropriation 1419 agreed to: $300,000 Appropriation 1420 Indian-Metis Liaison MR. TAYLOR: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to say a word or two in connection with this, and particularly with the grant of $988,000 or $1 million. My question is, is this the vote from which the grant comes to assist in the legal counselling of Natives? Along that line, I'd like to pay a real tribute to the work Mr. Chester Cunningham is doing in connection with counselling Natives who have offences before the courts. This work is done throughout the province as well as in Edmonton, and is not only effective, but meets a real need on the part of the Native people who need help at that time. It's given by Mr.

Cunningham in a very understanding and effective way and I'd like to commend Mr. Cunningham for that. I would appreciate knowing the amount of the grant being paid for this particular work. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, the grant of last year? Is that the question you are asking?

43-2216 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. TAYLOR: Yes. MR. ADAIR: The grant of last year came out of 1463. That's where the grant monies came from a year ago. Now they are in 1420 and the one in relation to the counselling services was some $211,395. I thank you very kindly for your kind words. They are doing a tremendous job and it is one area in which we hope we can assist them further. MR. TAYLOR: [Not recorded]...$11,000? MR. ADAIR: Similar or maybe even more. MR.

NOTLEY: I wonder if I could ask the minister to break down those grants for us, the amount for each organization this year and compare that with last year. Do you have those figures, Mr. Minister, so we can quickly copy them down? MR. ADAIR: I can supply you with a copy of the grants that were made available a year ago. The ones in the future, of course, have not all come in -- the submissions for grants for this year -- so I can't do that particular one. But I can, if you'd like, read them off or table it a little later.

I just have the one copy with me, but I can make available to you a copy of the grants that were made out of that vote last year. MR. NOTLEY: What I'm interested in, Mr. Chairman -- Mr. Minister what I'm interested in, is how these grants compare, whether we are increasing them or whether we are keeping them static, whether we are reducing them, or what the case may be. Now, I understand that you may not be able to advise us on all of the organizations, but surely you have finalized some of the grants.

To the extent that you have finalized them, I'm wondering if you would be in a position to advise the Legislature of what these grants are? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, we haven't finalized any as yet, for this year. We have three in the process of being finalized. They are very near or slightly more than they were a year ago at this particular time -- the three that are coming before us very shortly. Possibly we could go back a year. A year ago we attempted to keep the grant structure very close to the same, or in that range.

In other words, if an organization came in with a $40,000 grant two years ago, we asked them if they could consider keeping it within that guideline for last year, rather than coming in for maybe $80,000 or $120,000. I might say that the organizations cooperated very, very well. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I want to say that I think the provision that we make for grants to the Native organizations is really one of the more important appropriations this Legislature passes.

Personally, I would think it would be a better approach if we had separate appropriations for each organization so that, in effect, these become votes of the Legislature to these organizations. I don't think there is any doubt about it that if we are going to deal seriously with the problems of poverty and the problems as they relate to Native Albertans, the first thing we must achieve is to develop some organizations which can speak for these people, and speak for them in a powerful way.

There is just no other source of revenue anywhere in society to fund organizations like, for example, the Alberta Metis Association, other than the Government of Alberta or whatever level of government it may be, whether it be

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2217 the governments of Saskatchewan, Manitoba or British Columbia. Sometimes these organizations are going to take issue with the government. So be it. I really believe that when we talk about dealing with the ongoing problems of people, one of the most important things we can do is to provide people with some organization which can continually lobby for them, speak for them, fight for them on an on-going basis. I think we make a mistake if we feel that with a broad range of programs which we introduce in this Legislature that we are really solving the problems of poverty.

These problems, I think, are day-to-day problems which require as I say, the on-going attention of an organization which can speak for the people involved. And so I would hope, Mr. Chairman, that the decision this year to keep the grants at the same level is certainly the least we can do. I feel that perhaps as the years go on we have to consider increasing the grants so that we have strong, viable organizations which can sometimes embarrass us all a bit by speaking frankly, candidly. But in the process I think they will do a great deal in dealing rather effectively with the problems of the people they represent.

MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to add a point that, particularly with the provincial associations there is no doubt they do require funds and we certainly are going to assist them wherever possible and to the best degree possible. One of the things we would like to do in the office is to work toward the various organizations now receiving funds and have the possibilities of funding them through their own means. I use as an example the NCS group, the Native Communications Society, which has just recently, within the last six or seven months, moved into the private advertising field.

They are doing very well indeed at it and hopefully, as I said to the group not long ago, I would be most pleased to see the day when they are completely self-sufficient and can sort of burn the mortgage. This is one of the ends to which we are directing our work. MR. STROM: I have been very interested in the questions which were raised in regard to funding and also in the minister’s answers. I certainly support it, but I do have a question, Mr. Minister, that I would like to raise, Mr. Chairman, at this time.

I notice in Vote 1420 the last part of the statement there says: "encourages, fosters, and promotes rural growth." Now if I might for a minute, I would like to refer back to the NewStart program and I realize, Mr. Minister, that it isn't within your purview as far as the actual program, but my question is this: Have you been able to make any assessment of the program and its effect upon an area? Let’s take for example Janvier, which I think is a rather typical settlement in the north and has had the advantages of NewStart. We have now seen the program brought to a close. It was an experiment.

What in your opinion have been the effects of the program and has it done anything that would, in fact, follow through on this last part of the statement within the estimates of this year? Then also if I may ask, what does the government intend to do as a follow- up to this program to encourage the kind of growth and development one could expect in an area such as I just mentioned? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could partially answer this. I'm afraid I am not equipped today in terms of the information and an assessment of the Newstart program as far as Janvier is concerned.

But I could get this information, Mr. Chairman, and I could reply on it to the House, not only in terms of what NewStart tried to do in that community but in terms of that which the Department of Advanced Education and other departments are hoping to do in that community. Basically, NewStart went in for a very short period of time, Mr. Chairman; and I don’t carry in my mind the details of the program they carried on in that community. They were involved with studies with mothers and children and adults and some home care services, but the program was not carried on for a very long period of time.

They then shut their doors and we have been involved in trying to relocate the trailers and reopen them to provide activities and hopefully employment for people in that community in the long run.

43-2218 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 I can get the information, Mr. Chairman, for the hon. member if he wishes and in some detail. I have copies of all the studies and reports that NewStart did both in that community and elsewhere. If the hon. member is interested, I will be only too pleased to provide him with the information. MR. STROM: Mr. Chairman, I would be interested in it. I had not intended, Mr. Chairman, to get back into another estimate for the matter of discussion; I was rather relating it to the estimates of the hon. Minister in charge of Northern Development.

But if it is possible to get it, I would like to get it. While I am on my feet, may I just say again that I recognize the need of funding the association's funding project. I would have to say, Mr. Chairman, the Legislature should be very well aware of the fact that we are dealing with a situation that may not pay direct returns, and I think of one that has been mentioned, that I have heard hon. members throw across to us in a taunting sort of way, is the Wabasca situation.

Now, certainly it was a direct loss, but I think we will have to admit that it provided the experience for the Metis people to demonstrate whether or not they were able to carry on that kind of project, and I am sure they learned many lessons. It was rather expensive and at the time we were involved in it, we recognized these possibilities. All I am saying is we are really in the same exercise right here in that we will be continuing to fund the associations. I am not against it. I am for it.

But I would like to know, does the Indian Association, does the Metis Association make an assessment of the project from time to time? Do they provide information to the government as to what is being accomplished and what results -- what visible results do we see at this point in time? Again, I must say in closing that I am not going to be critical if there are losses in this area. In the long-term application, I am not sure that we can view them as losses, but rather as experiences and lessons to be learned that may, in fact, help these people to be self-sustaining in the years that lie ahead.

But I am interested in what assessments are being made, and what programs are being looked at by way of helping them further, and from which we can see visible results. MR. ADAIR; Mr. Chairman, some very good comments indeed, and a question well taken. I should point out the fact that we have, a year ago, instituted a system wherein we now receive quarterly statements of the funds spent from the associations. And we sit down with them now, and go over the amounts of dollars that are involved. We go over the proposed budget with them. With the office out of 1420, Mr.

Roche and staff discuss with the various associations exactly what they are wanting to do and where they are wanting to go and assist, where possible, to create the priorities within their structure as well, so that we don't have a system where you may have, say, a $5 million budget coming in to do everything this year type of thing. We are looking at what is the most feasible, most practical, and best way of providing the funds for the promotion of their particular activities. That's what we are trying to do right now. MR. STROM: Mr. Chairman, may I just ask another question then.

Has there been any reduction in welfare payments in any of these areas where programs have been initiated for them? Are we seeing any results in that particular area because I believe that that is one very positive approach we can use in checking results up to this point in time. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, we are checking specifically into a number of areas to see if there is a direct relationship to the lowering of social assistance. I haven't any figures I can give you right now.

But of course, on the broader scale, when you are dealing with the associations, it is a very broad picture indeed and very difficult to try and pin down the specific. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, last fall we passed a motion in this Assembly, a private members motion, to do a feasibility study into the Athabasca tar sands as to the

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2219 transportation feasibility of employing Native and Metis. Has the government completed that study and is it available at this present time? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, that was a request to look into the feasibility of modes of transportation or commuting systems. I might add that there is one commuter system presently in effect and that is one in the Slave Lake area that moves the workmen by bus back and forth.

We are keeping a close eye on that to see just what effect it has from the commuter's point of view in getting him from location, whether it be Kinuso or the lake area in which they transport the people back and forth. We are taking a look at the overall type of transportation needs in lieu of using aircraft possibly in trying to tie down with industry some joint-use agreement where we can tie it in so we can move them back and forth working with industry. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, this brings up another question. Most of these communities have airports and some sort of road systems.

Has your department appropriated any funds for the maintenance and upgrading of these particular airports and road systems? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, not directly, but we are looking very, very closely at the implementation, if we can, of providing a better, I think the word would be 'emergency service' or 'night kit', so we could then have available for emergency landings at night on these strips that do not have lights a means of getting aircraft in and out. Providing better ambulance service would be one means in that particular area. MR. BARTON: Mr.

Chairman, in other words there are no programs to cut the grass or see that these airstrips in the north are safe to land on right now? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, there are no dollars or programs in my office. MR. BARTON: In what department in government are there funds for this particular problem? MR. ADAIR: I believe it's the same as when you were previously involved, Lands and Forests. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, can the minister advise the committee what the present status is of the proposed co-op for native people in the Hinton-Edson area? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Chairman, would you be more specific on that, as to which one you are referring to? MR. NOTLEY: I understand there is to be -- at least you have received a proposal relating to the formation of a logging co-op which would negotiate a contract with North Western Pulp and Power and would employ a number of the Native people in the Hinton-Edson area, including the hamlet of Marlboro. DR. HORNER: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps I can answer that question, having regard to the co- op and being instrumental in putting the former co-op in the area into receivership because of a pretty bad financial situation -- the debt load they just couldn't carry.

43-2220 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 I suggested to the people in the area that they put together a new proposition in relation to such a co-op and how it would be financed. I asked them to consider that they start in a relatively modest way rather than become very large all of a sudden. Because the viability of these co-ops -- while I agree with the hon. Member for Cypress in that there is a social policy behind them as well -- certainly part of that social policy has to be to make them viable. So I have asked the people in the area to come back and work with my office and with the hon. Mr.

Adair's office with a new proposal with regard to a logging co-op in the area. As far as I know, they haven't come back with that proposal as yet, or at least it hasn't reached my desk. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, just to follow that up. I take it that you are placing the onus, Mr. Minister, on the people in the Marlboro region, and by "people", would that be the directors of the former board that was done away with or --- DR. HORNER: No, we are not placing the entire emphasis on the people in the area.

W e have a regional field worker, a co-op development officer in that area, who is working with the people to develop a proper proposition and a proper co- operative in the area. So the emphasis isn't on the former directors at all, but rather on the general proposition that will be helpful to the entire community of Marlboro and the other people in the area. I might say at this time that there was a group that split away from the original Marlboro co-op which has done very well, and that's the Beaver Bones group which has always been viable and continues to be viable. MR. BARTON: Mr.

Chairman, on community development -- this particular Appropriation 1420 -- are you expanding? How many community development officers have you got, and are you anticipating expanding the number you have this year? And what areas are they located in? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, as I said on Friday and I can go over the names again: Mr. Roach, Mr. Glick, Mr. Sinclair, Mrs. Harris, Mr. Albert and Mr. Langdon are the people who were transferred over to our office. We also have within that transfer the possibility of five others who could be placed in there. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, just a follow-up.

What areas are they working in now? Geographically, I think there were seven, were there not? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, Calgary, St. Paul, Hinton and Edmonton. MR. NOTLEY: Another question to the Minister of Agriculture. Can the minister give any idea as to when this new co-op will be organized to take the place of the one that went into receivership last year. Is the department negotiating actively with North Western Pulp and Power? It is my understanding that any co-op that would be set up would probably have to work out some sort of contract with North Western Pulp and Power.

Also, I think, important in the negotiations would be to make sure that the price was right. I am given to understand that if it were $18 or $19 a cord, probably a co-op couldn't operate on that basis. It would have to be a little higher price. So my question really is, to what extent are preliminary negotiations being carried on now? Secondly, when can we expect the formation of this co-op? DR. HORNER: Mr. Chairman, the formation of the co-op can be done ...[not recorded]... don't put any timetable on them.

Insofar as the negotiations with North Western Pulp and Power, I must say this: in the previous area, when we tried to salvage

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2221 the Marlboro Co-op, that the companies certainly were cooperative and tried to, as a matter of fact, loan some management skills to the co-op. But it became pretty obvious that they had, in fact, overspent on large machinery and just weren't able to be viable with this kind of a debt load. So we are hoping that if they go ahead with the formation of another co-op that it will be done on a smaller, more modest basis having regard to the very substantial capital costs that they can get piled up in.

My regional officer in the field is discussing with North Western Pulp and Power the availability of contracts and so on. I can assure the House that we will have a look at those contracts prior to approving any additional money or financing of such a co-op. MR. NOTLEY: A follow-up question again, Mr. Chairman. Will there be any specific management advice for the first several years of this co-op and who will be giving it? Will it be done through the Co-op Activities Branch? Will you be trying to borrow advice from North Western Pulp and Power on a loan basis?

What will be the approach in order to set the thing up on an efficient basis? DR. HORNER: Well, Mr. Chairman, as I said in public accounts when we went into this in some depth, we were involving a policy in relation to native co-ops in which they would have to accept some management advice on a joint negotiated basis. In other words, we don't want to send in managerial advice which they don't want or people who obviously wouldn't be able to work with them. Not only managerial advice, but perhaps more important than that for them is adequate accounting so that they can tell, from time to time, where they are at.

I think we have to learn something from the previous problems they ran into. I think one of the things we did learn is that we have to provide them with adequate accounting. This should also include teaching some of their own people accounting methods so that they can, as a matter of fact, continue to operate. In a general way I can say that this directive applies to all of the co- operatives, not only to the native people's co-operatives but to other co- operatives as well.

They have to accept at least some suggestions in regard to management and accounting and our regional co-op development officers are co- signing people initially. Once the operation is on the road and appears to be viable, and they are providing the necessary accounting and necessary managerial skills, then we will withdraw completely. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, I have one question on community development officers. The five that are proposed to be hired this year, are they designated for the north? Or is it going to be another major expansion of current city operations? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Chairman, what was the last part of that? MR. BARTON: The expansion of current city operations. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I'm not aware of that and there is a possibility that they will be in the north. MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed on 1420? MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, I gave a question to the hon. minister on Friday, I believe

43-2222 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that 1420, Mr. Ludwig? MR. LUDWIG: Yes, that's right. And here's the question: I wonder in all the programs that were available in the past, lending programs, educational programs, all the programs for the northern areas, dealing with the Metis and the Indians -- can the minister advise in what areas have there been increases in spending, in what areas have they abolished spending and in what areas have they transferred spending?

Give us a general outline of any improvements or increases in spending in this particular area in dealing with the problem generally. Mr. Adair stated, "I can do that Mr. Chairman, when we get to 1420." Would he do so now? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if you'd be a little bit more specific in what you are looking for -- what the question is again. Would you do that please? MR. LUDWIG: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll read it again, but the minister apparently understood me last week. Here is the question I gave the minister.

I wonder in all the programs that were available in the past, lending programs, educational programs, all the programs for the northern areas, dealing with the Metis and the Indians -- can the minister advise in what areas have there been increases in spending, in what areas have they abolished spending and in what areas have they transferred spending? Give us a general outline of any improvements or increases in spending in this particular area in dealing with the problem. And I was talking about generally.

There have been considerable aid programs, lending programs, grants, et cetera to the Indians and I wanted to know whether you could tell me if there has been more emphasis on these programs that were implemented in the past, or have you de-emphasized spending in areas where the Indians perhaps have been active with a lot of independence that they were receiving financial help to get into business themselves, and in the area of housing, et cetera? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I'll try and answer that question the best I can. I think in the main area certainly there is no de-emphasization.

There is a marked emphasis placed on Metis housing, and that comes under 1421 in which we have $1 million that will go toward the provision of a housing program for the Metis people of Alberta. In the area of grants and transfers, there was a transfer of the grant program from 1463 of a year ago to 1420. A year ago it was $988,000 and we have placed that in now at $1 million. At this particular point, Mr. Chairman, I can't speak for education or any of the other departments as to what their increases or decreases may be if, in fact, there are any decreases.

But certainly from our standpoint in the area of grants to Native people or Native organizations, there have been no decreases. We asked a year ago to have them keep them at that same level and we're now reviewing the ones for this year coming up. MR. LUDWIG: What I had in mind, Mr. Chairman, is whether the government has any programs to guide the Indian into getting into business on his own and getting into competition in the free enterprise system; whether they have anything going at all and how much action there is in this particular area to give the Indian a chance to be a bit self-sufficient? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Chairman, we've been working for quite some time with the associations as well to come up with a viable alternative to what was the ARDA program, the

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2223 cost-sharing program that they had with the federal government that was not implemented in Alberta or I believe, Saskatchewan. They had it in Manitoba and they had quite a number of problems with it. We have had discussions with the Metis Association and the Indian Association in relation to what they would like to see in a program of that nature that would specifically allow them to receive funds, a loaning program or to some degree one with a grant structure within it, which would allow them to get into business.

And one of the areas that we have been pursuing is to come up with a program that would relate more to the individual or the small businessman rather than the program that was outlined in the original ARDA agreement where there was a 20 per cent equity and you had to have a number of people involved. In other words, in some cases you got the individual in over his head before he was started. MR. LUDWIG: Mr.

Chairman, could I gather from the minister's answer, which was very general, that they are talking more about pronouncement and intent than achievement today -- nothing has really developed from this -- that that is your thinking now? That that is the way you would like to go? But really nothing has in fact, developed, something tangible we can show that half a dozen or eight, ten or thirty Indian or Metis organizations have gone into business and are really beginning to fend for themselves. MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Chairman, I think there is quite a number of native people who have gone into business and are doing extremely well for themselves. It's the other area that we're looking at, the area where they have, say, the one person who'd like to get into something and has no vehicle by which he can do it. That particular area is the one we are directing our attention to right now. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, I know that some Indians are very capable and they go into business themselves and do very well.

But I am wondering whether there is any government program, a lending program, that will help those who want but perhaps can't get credit. I don't believe the Indians' credit is as good as the white man's in the commercial lending business in order to enable the Indians to set up and get started. I believe that he is handicapped. Is there anything the government is doing in this area to give the Indian at least an even break because I am alleging that perhaps he is handicapped in competing with a white man in the same type of business? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Chairman, that is quite true, and that has been the case for quite a number of years. Hopefully we will be able to assist in bringing it up to an equalized basis. I think that certainly the other loaning institutions are available, but the opportunities or the equity position of a great number of the Native people is not sufficient to allow them to be able to borrow the money. Again, as I say, if we can come up with the alternative within this change from the ARDA program, we will be able to provide that particular system for that person. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, the minister's answer prompts another question.

He mentioned the matter of opportunity. Can he advise if any Indian firm, any Indian group, association or individual has borrowed any money through the Alberta Opportunity Fund? MR. ADAIR: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I am aware of one. MR. LUDWIG: Only one? And how many applied and did not receive loans under the Alberta Opportunity Fund? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, there may be a great number of them, but I am only aware of one at the present time.

43-2224 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. LUDWIG: Are the Indian people generally informed that there is an opportunity under the Alberta Opportunity Fund? Or are they kept in ignorance of this Alberta Opportunity Fund? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, not any more. MR. LUDWIG: What did you do to inform the Indians, and when, on this particular issue? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, on a number of occasions we've requested and had the various officials of the Opportunity Company go out and speak to native groups. MR.

LUDWIG: Are you saying that as a result of all this knowledge only one successful application has been made by the Indians who, in my opinion and the knowledge of all hon. members, require a lot of low cost financing to get into business? DR. HORNER: Mr. Chairman, obviously the hon. member hasn't been listening very well. We've been making a substantial number of guarantee loans through the cooperative division under The Native Co-operative Guarantee Act, both in regard to cattle and for other industry as well. I can think of two or three offhand.

The school bus operators on the reserve at Gleichen have a very good record and have built up substantial equity in their co-op and continue to receive government assistance in the way of finance. In addition to that, there are a number of areas in which they've gone the cooperative route. We, along with officials from Mr. Adair's department, have been reviewing with the Indian Association of Alberta and the Indian groups themselves the relative importance of business management and how they should proceed.

Up until now a great many, the majority of cases, have gone the cooperative route because it would appear to be simpler for them to do so. But there have been recently, with better financing, more Indian groups forming limited companies, et cetera. But up until recently the great majority of them went the cooperative route because it was relatively simple to get registered and put together. As I said earlier, in response to the Member for Spirit River-Fairview, we evolved a number of guidelines we would like them to operate by, in relation to the question of management, in relation to the question of accounting.

This is primarily for their own use, not as a measure of social policy. I think that our risk percentage in these loans should be substantially higher than in other groups to allow them that opportunity to go ahead. I don't, of course, have any records in relation to the number of times they have approached the Opportunity Company for their financing through the co- operatives, but we do have a great number of co-operatives and we continue, as a matter of fact almost on a weekly basis, to make these loans available to them. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Deputy Premier feels that I was not listening.

He's talking about programs that have been in effect for quite some time, and this government had the good sense to continue the programs started by the previous government. So I'm well aware of this program. I'm concerned as to how many Indians got a loan from the Conservative Opportunity Fund, that's the one I'm concerned about -- not the co-op. I know about that. I didn't have to listen to that one, and the Minister of Agriculture's long speech. That's the one I'm concerned about. I'm wondering whether the Indians are taking advantage of, or know about the Opportunity Fund, let alone the co-ops.

They are not restricted, just because they are Indians, to the co-op -- to the lending through the Department of Agriculture or some other department. I wondered whether they are getting into any business? Because they are Albertans.

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2225 You said only one. And so I wonder whether the minister can tell us what specific information went out to the Indians by way of the news wire service or the pamphlets, which this government is very handy at issuing by the millions. What has the Indian in his hand, today, specifically to tell him that you can come in and we'll consider giving a loan -- a loan guaranteed by the government under the Opportunity Fund? That's the one I wanted. I knew about this one. This was nothing new. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I would like to clarify one point there. I said I only knew of one.

There may well be others and that is different than what you were saying a moment ago. But I would also like to point out that as I said, too, a moment ago the fact that we have, on request from the Native people, arranged with either the associations or specific groups to have people from the Opportunity Company go out and speak to them and provide for them the information they are looking for. Again, I emphasize the fact that I'm only aware of one. I don't have the Alberta Opportunity Company under my office. I'm sure there may well be others. They do not actually have to come through us.

They may well decide to apply directly to the Opportunity Company. If they come to us we will certainly help them out. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, the reason that I have to ask this question and pursue it is that the answer which was tabled doesn't indicate who got it. But it is my opinion that the Indians are not getting very much of any of this fund. I want to find out. I believe it is of public interest. Could the minister find out and perhaps give us a better answer than the one he has now? DR. HORNER: Well, Mr. Chairman, just so the hon.

Member for Calgary Mountain View doesn't become an instant expert on everything. He is obviously pretty ignorant about the number of loans that were made to Native people through the co- operative branch, particularly in the cattle area. These were substantially all made since 1971. The other major loans that were made to the co-operatives, and I could recite Wabasca, Calling Lake, Calais, Marlboro -- frankly didn't work out very well. We reviewed this in some detail in the Public Accounts Committee.

The ones that, in fact, have done well, are the ones that started small and were reasonably satisfied with a slower rate of growth than the ones that became large almost overnight. These were the ones that got into trouble. We are planning to review the present situation with regard to some of these older ones later on this spring to see what we can do to put them on a more viable course. The situation with regard to business loans is that there are a number of co-operatives in the Native area that are outside of agricultural pursuits generally.

I mentioned the school bus co-operative at Gleichen; there is a construction company out of Calgary, and there are a number of other industries involved in this way. For the hon. member to make some snide remarks about what we are doing with regard to making financing available, just isn't true. There has been a substantial change for the better in relation to providing finance for the Native people through the cooperative movement. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, any time I ask a question that the hon.

Minister of Agriculture doesn't like he's got to twist it around and say it is either a snide remark or that I am an expert on all matters, but I want to see how expert he is. That's his problem now. How many new Indian co-operatives have been formed, say, within the last year through the government lending agencies and how many of them are thriving and in what particular areas? DR. HORNER: Well, Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member will get hold of the material we passed out in public accounts he can find that out already. It is already a

43-2226 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 matter of public documentation in this House, as I consider the Public Accounts Committee to be part of our proceedings. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he look and find out when they were incorporated, how they're doing and which ones, in fact, are behind in their payments or in their commitments. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, since the Deputy Premier doesn't know, I'll look at public accounts and find out for myself. MR. STROM: Mr. Chairman, a comment the hon.

Minister of Agriculture just made in regard to some of the previous loans -- I think it would be well just to give additional information so we have all of the facts before us at this time. Certainly, when I rose in my place and mentioned this to the hon. Minister in charge of Northern Development, I indicated that in some of the early loans made there were some rather sad experiences.

One of the things I did not mention and I believe necessary to bring to the attention of the House is that I think most hon. members in the House will recall that three to four years ago, maybe five years ago, there was a tremendous interest on the part of Native people to make their presence known and felt and to get involved in the development programs on behalf of their own people. I certainly do not quarrel with their objective but I want to say, Mr. Chairman, right now as I said to them at the time that it was my view they were getting into too large an operation. I agree with the hon.

Minister of Agriculture that it is far better to start on a smaller basis. At that point in time there was no experience on which to base our arguments with them. We had no way in which we could convince them that it was important for them to have good management practices, good accounting practices and we, of course, went along with them recognizing that in fact there could be trouble down the road. Trouble they certainly encountered.

I think it is all well and good to suggest now that something different should have been done but I simply say again, that the mood of the people, the trend of the times was such that there was tremendous pressure placed on governments at all levels to provide opportunities for them which they hadn't had in the past. All I say is, let's learn from the mistakes we made. If the hon. Minister of Agriculture can convince them now that they should start on a smaller basis, I'm with you one hundred per cent because that is the way I felt originally.

But I have to say that the pressures we faced from Native groups were that they wanted to have total management, total control. "Give us the dollars and we'll do the job." The federal government had been faced with that same problem and even today there is still a bit of that pressure there, although I think they are now recognizing there is more to it than just getting the dollars. I think it is important we recognize the transition period they have been going through.

I hope opportunities will be provided to them in spite of the fact we may face some further losses as a result of poor management, poor operations or overly-enthusiastic people getting into businesses they maybe should not have been in. Let me say, it's not only Native people faced with that problem. There are a lot of people in our society today who if they can get credit, if they can find the money, if it is made available to them, are overly anxious and get involved in operations they should not be in.

But these are the problems we have to face with government and we certainly have to make assessment of the problems encountered as they relate to the point in time when loans were made. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, one more question, under this appropriation -- has the government submitted an alternate proposal to ARDA 3(

b) to the federal government? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, a little earlier I said that we were working on it. We haven’t got it yet but we're working toward the finalization of it now.

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2227 MR. BARTON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Has there been any consultation with the Native and Metis groups as to the proposal? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I didn’t think you had gone out but I had said at that time that there was. I’ll say it again. There has been with the Metis Association and the Indian Association. MR. RUSTE: Just a word on this. I'm going back a little bit as well because I think the Minister of Agriculture in Public Accounts referred to some of the experiences we are having.

But I think that in setting up a lumber co-op today versus back when the Wabasca one was set up originally, just a simple matter of prices alone can make the difference between it being a viable one today or what it was then. Certainly, as I believe the hon. Member for Cypress mentioned too, we have a high rate of bankruptcy. And the Minister of Agriculture knows that as well as a lot of others. It's not only Native people who go bottoms up, shall we say.

So I think, in looking at this picture, in the savings, in the welfare payments made, in the experience gained by those people, not only the native people, but people such as ourselves who are working with it. I think this all tends to work toward a better future for them. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, one other problem I find quite difficult in my riding is the question as to the agricultural grant through The Societies Act. Has the Minister of Northern Development looked into presenting a program similar to this so that people of isolated and native communities can participate in recreational programming?

As it is now, monies have been going out of the storms of wilderness to other communities, but in the north it really hasn't had that big an impact, especially in the isolated communities. I was wondering if there are any grants to upgrade the recreational facilities of isolated communities and reserves in the north? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, we are looking into the possibilities of trying to arrange a better system of getting dollars for that type of program, a recreational program.

I can't speak on behalf of The Agricultural Societies Act or any of the agricultural societies that may be in that particular area, but alternatives to that type of a program are being looked at. MR. BARTON: In other words, Mr. Chairman, if a proposal from a Metis colony, or an Indian Reserve, or an isolated community came in for a grant through The Agricultural Societies Act it would be turned down? MR. ADAIR: I would have to pass that to the Minister of Agriculture. Of course, any application for a grant under The Agricultural Societies Act would have to be by an agricultural society to start with. MR.

NOTLEY: Can I ask the minister. You say you are looking at alternatives. Can you give us some idea as to when there will be a -- MR. BARTON: Order, order. I asked a question. He hasn't answered me yet. MR. NOTLEY: Oh, I am sorry.

43-2228 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 DR. HORNER: As I take it the question was whether or not the native people in agricultural societies could benefit from our Legislation under The Agricultural Societies Act? MR. BARTON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. DR. HORNER: Yes, very much so. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, the minister's answer really has answered my question too, because if native communities will in effect come under that, then fair enough. DR.

HORNER: If it is that they are willing to work with our field people in the development of their agricultural society facilities and as we expect from other societies, then I see no reason at all. As a matter of fact I would welcome the formation, and that is one of the things we've taken up with the president of the Indian Association, for example. I think such a society might in fact help them in their evaluation of their own needs in relation to some of the co- operatives dealing with strictly agricultural pursuits.

I would welcome their formation either jointly with their communities in the area or on their own if there were a big enough area to form agricultural societies and do those kinds of things that are required under The Societies Act. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, in the residential school, and I'm going back to my own riding in Desmarais, it is currently being turned over to the Indian band. Has this government approached the band as to running programs out of that residential school, and if at all possible to run a recreational program in conjunction with the agricultural societies' loan to get the thing on its way?

It's quite a complex facility and I was wondering if this government has looked into the utilization of it in that particular area for recreational and cultural purposes. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure just specifically which building you are speaking of. Is this the residence at Desmarais? Not the one at Wabasca? MR. BARTON: Right. MR. ADAIR: The one at Desmarais. To my knowledge -- I have just become aware of the fact that there is a move to turn it over to the Big Stone Band. We haven't followed it any further than that at this particular time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed on 1420? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

Appropriation 1420 agreed to: $1,310,000 Appropriation 1421 Metis Housing MR. HO LEM: Mr. Chairman, on 1421 I would like to ask the minister if he can advise how many homes under this program will be built and how many families can be

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2229 accommodated in this period of time? I'm concerned that perhaps there might be only a limited number of families receiving the benefits of this program due to the high cost of building houses, particularly in areas away from the heavily settled areas. In regard to the types of homes, will these homes be fully serviced by power and utilities? Another thing I would like to know is: is this program going to be on a continuing basis or is this just a one-shot effort? Because if it's not on a continuing basis, I'm sure it wouldn't make too much impact because of the high cost.

I would also like to ask the minister if this is a cost-sharing program with the federal government. Because I feel that perhaps the federal government should kick in on the ante. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I'll try to answer as many of the questions you placed before me as I can. The Metis Housing Program -- we are currently in the planning stage. We are hopefully going to be able to develop alternatives in the area of types of houses. As to the specific number we don't know at this time. We hope as many as possible.

Now that is a very broad statement I know, but we're looking at the possibility of tying it in as well with CMHC and therefore making it a cost- sharing program. If we can do that then we can move into the area of nine times the amount, so to speak.

If we do have that and we can get concurrence from the CMHC people to agree to what we're looking at -- what we're trying to present -- we're in the middle of discussing alternatives -- I guess that is the easiest way of saying it at this time -- as to whether we can go into a program that would allow us to provide a type of public housing, a type of home that you could buy down the road when that particular individual gets to the point where he is able to purchase that home. We want him to have that right.

We're looking at all of these right now and in relation to the one-shot -- I believe the question was whether it would be a one-shot situation or otherwise hopefully no. This is the beginning of a long-term program. Of course, at this particular stage I haven't really got that much I can pass on to you other than we are aiming for a very early summer to get started with it. Because, of course, you recognize in the north we have snow possibly a little earlier than you do in some of your southern areas, although you get it later in the summer than we do.

But I think it's an exciting program and we are extremely enthused about it. We have almost all departments of government working with us to assist in coming up with the answers to the problems that relate to this type of program. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, following up that, what participation as far as design and actual construction of this particular housing program will the Native people -- is there any Native input as to the design and the type of building they want? Or are you guys going to come up with a house and say, "This is it"?

Are they going to be able to build it or are they going to work it through a co- operative. What type of approach are you using to let them out, by tender, or does each particular house stand on its own merits? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, if I can speak quite broadly I'll say, a little bit of everything. In other words, we are looking at the use of co-operatives. We are looking at the use of a type of housing authority. We are looking at the individual home in an area. We are looking at any number of homes. Of course, where they will be -- we haven't reached that particular point.

I might say that the Native people will have an input in the design. We hope to come up with five, six or seven types of designs relating from, say, the log house to a city-type house, if I can use that term. They will also have a

part in the building of them. That is the main emphasis behind it, to allow them to build them in the area where they are going to be. But we may also be looking at providing various firms the tendering or the ability to tender for a contract to build some homes. I might add in there, we are also looking at some homes of a portable type. We have had requests, after discussions with some of the Metis locals, that they would like to have us

43-2230 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 consider a type of mobile home so that if they, in fact, at some point would like to move from where they are now to where the jobs might be, they could take the home with them. These are all under consideration right now. MR. NOTLEY: Can the minister advise the committee whether or not you have an overall inventory of Metis housing needs in the province and whether there has ever been a thorough study of the problem, colony by colony, as well as the problems in the urban areas? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, we have quite a number of studies, I believe.

In talking this afternoon with the Minister of Municipal Affairs, we have nine studies we are using. One of the studies was done by the Metis Association and relates specifically and directly to each area in which there are homes. So we have some of that information available. As to the need, the types of homes and what kinds they suggest and what not, we have that particular study. We asked the Metis Association this morning to make available to us copies of that. They have, in fact, done so. MR. NOTLEY: If I understand, I think the study of the Metis Association is about four years old now, is it not?

I am wondering, have there been supplementary studies actually commissioned by the government as a follow-up to the Metis study? Because that study by the association brought forward some pretty horrendous facts about the just dreadful extent of housing for Metis Albertans. I am wondering to what extent we have followed it up with further studies. I don't think the study, at least the one I saw in 1969, was the kind of study which anyone would suggest, even the organization that developed it, as the final word. But it certainly pinpointed the need to move quickly. Following that, in your answer to Mr.

Barton, you mentioned that you were negotiating with Central Mortgage and Housing. I would certainly agree with that approach because if we can get some federal money into this area so much the better. You didn't however, to my recollection anyway, say whether or not this $1 million grant is a one-shot proposition or whether it would be a continuous proposition and something we can anticipate over a period of time.

Because quite obviously $1 million, or even multiplied nine times if we bring Central Mortgage and Housing into it, is still going to leave us very far short of dealing with the housing problem of the Metis people of Alberta. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry you weren't listening when I stated just exactly a few moments ago for the hon. member from Calgary, that we, in fact, have been working with preliminary discussions with CMHC to that particular point to allow us to make use of funds to the extent of say nine times that amount.

I also pointed out that it was our hope that it would not be a one-shot deal, that it would be an on-going deal. Certainly, we recognize that we can't solve all of the problems in one year. We are getting a start in that particular area and we think a tremendous start, indeed. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, at the present time, though, the minister says "it is our hope." So I take it that this is not part of a program which has been designed over a period of time; it is very much a situation that will vary from year to year.

This year there is an appropriation for $1 million; next year it might be more or it might not exist at all. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, we have the appropriation for the $1 million this year and we're working on a long-term plan, a plan of approximately five years, right at the moment. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, again if I can just pin down the minister a little more. When can we expect an announcement as to when these various pieces will be pulled together into some form of recognizable policy? I understand that you

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2231 are working with Central Mortgage and Housing. How long have you been working with them? To what extent do you feel that a policy on this will be fully developed? For example, by the fall session? Is it possible that something may be finished by that time? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, in relation to the construction of homes, I would hope that it would be much sooner than that. As soon as possible and as quickly as possible is all I can give you at this particular point.

We're aiming at, as I said earlier, as early in the summer as we can so that we can get something done this summer. We have a short season up north as you recognize and we would like to get to it as quickly as we can. They have been working overtime in our discussions with the CMHC people and also within the interdepartmental areas where we have some minor problems we've got to resolve. MR. HINMAN: Mr. Chairman, this grant to the Alberta Housing Corporation, does it take away from the cost of the houses supplied to these Metis people? Or is it simply a grant for organization and administration? MR.

ADAIR: Well, Mr. Chairman, this will be used directly for the housing program itself. It is not one of administration really. It is one in which the $1 million will go towards housing. MR. HINMAN: Will the individual Metis who gets a house get it free, or to what extent will he benefit from this grant? MR. ADAIR: We haven't resolved that as yet, Mr. Chairman, as to just what portion of that it will be. We're looking at a number of alternatives, that is, the long- term financing and payments low enough so that they can possibly handle that particular type of payment.

That's in the area of the individual who would like to buy the house. In the other area, of course, it will be a type of public housing project to start with. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, one other question. In 1970 there was quite a movement for upgrading and building actual new construction in isolated communities and Metis colonies. And they were using promissory notes. Has the promissory note system worked out satisfactorily as far as repayments are concerned? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I'm not really fully aware of that particular type of program. That would be, I assume, through the settlements.

Is that the one you are referring to? MR. BARTON: It was through Alberta Housing. They approved the application and they were up to, I think around $2,000, and it was just a straight promissory note, no chattel mortgage. I was wondering whether that program was successful in this type of approach where they actually built new log houses -- very successful. A lot of work has been done in the Chipewyan Lakes area where it has pretty nearly rebuilt the community. I was wondering if this program has been successful and if the repayment plan has accordingly been successful? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Chairman, I can't answer that particular question at this time but I would be quite happy to check it out for you and provide you with the answer. MR. BARTON: One other question. The hon. Premier in Slave Lake mentioned that they were going to go into an extensive program for meals in schools. I wondered how it was coming and under what vote it is. Is it in this vote too, or is it --

43-2232 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, a portion of it is in this particular vote and the balance is in the Department of Health and Social Development. The one in our particular vote relates to the situation at Janvier in which the funds were provided from the old 1463. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, is that program going to be continued or expanded, or is it just for the Janvier community? MR. ADAIR: No, Mr. Chairman, it is continuing. It has been expanded and possibly the Minister of Health and Social Development would like to comment on it further. MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed on 1421? MR.

BARTON: I wonder what communities they are looking at in this particular program and the amount of funds. How are they going to administer it? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, did I understand the subject was the school lunch program? The one in Janvier was the one that I think the hon. Mr. Adair just mentioned as one that the government had looked into in recent months in the course of a visit to Janvier to look at their difficulties there, a visit on which both Mr. Adair and I were present.

We have in the succeeding months budgeted for -- and I don't know if the particular item is in the item that is now under discussion or not -- but budgeted for what we expect to be within three years a total program in regard to school lunches. At the present time, officials are working on scheduling of this. They are working in conjunction with the Metis Association, and I have had one discussion with my own officials on the progress of those meetings with the Metis Association and officials of my department. I am satisfied with the progress they are making.

But there has been some difficulty in identifying precisely which community it should be started in ahead of the others. That is the process they are going through now. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, there are monies set aside? You didn't say how much. I realize the position you are in as to the priorities of the communities and what areas. Will that program be totally in force by September of the new school term? MR. CRAWFORD: Maybe the best way to put it would be this, Mr. Chairman. By September of this year, it would be fully in force for the ones that are chosen to be in the first group of those that are covered.

And it will be fully in force in respect to the commitment of the amount of monies made available in the appropriation for it. But it will take us, we expect, two more years to cover completely the settlements because of the fact that there are between 65 and 85 of them to be covered, I believe. In some areas both the ability of someone in the local community to provide food on a proper basis without some instruction or help of some sort is also a factor. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, just before we leave this appropriation. We really have three programs that are dealing with the Metis people as such.

We have the well program under the Department of the Environment, the program that the Minister of Health and Social Development just discussed, and the housing program. I assume that the coordination of these programs would come under your department and would be provided for by this vote.

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2233 How are you allocating who gets what and when among the communities? Are you going to have all three programs coming into the same communities at the same time? Or would you be trying to dovetail one set of programs in one group of communities, and another one in another and so on, so that every community gets a little slice of the pie this year? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, that is what we hope to do, to provide the broadest coverage possible of the programs and that's the water program, the lunch program, and the housing program. Now the the new lunch program comes under Mr.

Crawford's office, the water program under Mr. Yurko's office and the housing program through our office. And we might add that there is a further program and that is the forest fire fighting program through the Department of Lands and Forests as well that we are assisting and working with the department in getting going. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Minister, who is the chief in this case? Who is doing the coordinating? Is it going to be your department in the final analysis that will do the coordinating? For example, can you advise Mr.

Crawford's department that these are the communities which we feel the program should begin this year? And can you advise Mr. Yurko's department -- I suspect that may be rather difficult -- that these are the communities you should be working in? Who, in fact, will be the chief coordinator? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I might say that we get along extremely well within the various departments and offices. W e've had no problems to date in arriving at what we feel will be a suitable way of doing this.

We also have to keep in mind that we are working with the associations and receiving from them recommendations as to where they feel these monies should be best spent and what communities they feel have the need. We're going over it with them and then we'll be relating it. I might say that when it comes to school lunch programs, the "chief" you referred to will be Mr. Crawford. When it comes to the water-wells it will be Mr. Yurko. When it comes to the housing it will be myself, working, again, jointly with each other. MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, I have a question.

I was wondering whether your department has put any major emphasis on attracting professional people in the north, especially in the field of nursing. I imagine quite a serious problem in the north is that we just can't get professional people up there to do the jobs, and especially in the municipal areas. Has your department looked into this at all? MR. ADAIR: Thanks for the elevation to a department, but it is an office, Mr. Chairman. Although we have had some inquiries, we haven't pursued it any further at this particular point. MR.

BARTON: I realize I have given you a compliment, but there has been very little done, so I appreciate the term of "office". MR. RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, to the minister. I understand that some time ago, on one of the Indian reservations, I believe, they set up an assembly line system of building pre-fab homes. Homes were moved out out to the reservations. Has there been any study made of that to see how that would be acceptable in this situation where you are going into housing? I think it would be preferable that the people themselves who are going to live in it should have their input into the design of it.

Certainly in the labour situation as much as can be done by the Native people in this whole line with maybe one or two supervisors that would help that situation. Have you anything to report on that -- and this goes back -- I can recall seeing one time a plant in operation on an Indian reserve where the people themselves, under supervision, were doing this prefabbing and then they were moved out into other parts of the reservation.

43-2234 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, not specifically, but I think you are relating to a situation like they have on the Kehewin reserve where they are prefabbing and building their own homes. We certainly have looked at that particular situation to see if there were anything we can pick up from that and utilize it, but as I said earlier, too, we want to make, where at all possible, the job situation available to the people in the area.

In other words, if we are using Trout Lake, the people in the Trout Lake area would receive first call toward the construction of these homes, if they were the type of homes that would be permanent. Now we may be looking at one where they are requesting mobile-type homes. That one may be one that goes out on a tender basis and is built, say, by Kainai Industries, to use that particular name, and that home would then be transported into the area. Appropriation 1421 agreed to: $1,000,000 MR. CHAIRMAN: Very well, Appropriation 1440, Emergency Measures Organization. MR. HINMAN: Mr.

Chairman, on this vote I'd like to ask the minister what consideration has been given to raising the -- MR. STROM: With regard to Appropriation 1421, do you not call the total appropriation for Northern Development? MR. CHAIRMAN: My apologies. Yes, thank you, Mr. Strom. The total for Northern Development is $2,660,000. Agreed? MR. BARTON: Mr. Chairman, there is just one other thing. Last year we had a bill rammed through here to expand the Northern Development Council, and in the meantime -- as you know I'm still a member -- I believe in local autonomy and participation.

I wonder if the hon. minister would advise as to just what his department is doing in this affair, and what his department is doing, period. I can see a group, a northern development group of technicians and sociologists, but actually I wonder if he is going down to the meat of the problem and the appointees appointed and getting some grass-roots information into the northern development. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry you took part of the afternoon off Friday, because we did discuss that, although the weather was bad and I recognized the need to get out while the chance was there. MR.

HENDERSON: He was with the Premier. MR. ADAIR: I thought you were with the leader. But in moving in that particular area, we have been doing quite a number of things this past year. I take exception to the term, "doing nothing", because we have, as I said on Friday, been working mainly with the Native people in achieving quite a number of things for them in the area of better communications, providing them with the opportunity, where requested, to get to the various departments.

You were referring to the amendment that went through with the provision to make available two more members to the Northern Alberta Development Advisory Council. I said that once we got the northern development group going, we would be working toward the establishment of the advisory council again and the implementation of the two new positions and possibly reviewing those who are presently on the council and moving them into different areas.

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2235 In other words, if there is a member on the east end of the Slave Lake, we might look at getting a member from the west end of the Slave Lake and this type of thing, so we can get a proper balance in the north and get back to the grass roots type of communication with the people in the areas. MR. BARTON: I appreciate that from the organization part of it, but actually the grass root problems will come from the people you appoint from the specific areas.

While I am on it, and you are on the decentralization program, there is only one location in northern Alberta where the Northern Development Council's offices should be and that is in the Slave Lake constituency. It's the geographical centre. MR. ADAIR: I appreciate your opinion. Northern Development agreed to: $2,660,000 Appropriation 1440 Emergency Measures Organization MR. FRENCH: Mr. Chairman, to the minister in charge of EMO. What consideration has been given in this vote for upgrading the per diem expenses allowed to the volunteer people who come in and take these courses?

When I look at the vote I see it is substantially about the same as last year. I have had some representation from some people down my way who feel that when they come in to take some of these courses the expenses allowed do not provide for their hotel and meals. They are out-of-pocket. They also feel that they do a terrific amount of work at home on a voluntary basis and the least that can be expected would be for them to get their actual expenses when attending these courses. DR. HORNER: Mr. Chairman, I have had representations also in this regard and we will have a look at that situation.

We are in the process of evaluating the entire operation and bringing it more in line with a civil disaster program rather than the emphasis being on nuclear war, or what have you. I would expect, Mr. Chairman, that in the coming year we will see a conversion from EMO to an organization with substantially the same people there is no intent to change the people as such -- but to redirect it so that its major concern will be with civilian disasters, at the same time having a preparedness responsibility in relation to war as well.

In other words, I think our major concern at the present time has to be in regard to civilian disasters and that is where the emphasis will be. In that regard we would be quite willing to have a look at the question of the per diem allowances to the volunteers employed. I certainly must say I agree with you that we get a lot of very substantial help from people all over Alberta who do it on their own account and without any actual remuneration, sometimes at a cost to themselves. And I don't think they should be out-of-pocket.

I might also add that I have been pleased with the way the organization has functioned in the past year, Mr. Chairman. It has, in fact, responded I think in a very worthwhile way to a number of smaller disasters, and is very well prepared to handle larger ones. MR. RUSTE: You referred to a changing. What will that do as it relates to the federal level? I understand there is an EMO at the federal level working in cooperation with the province now. Will that affect the operation at all if you do any changing within the province? DR. HORNER: No, Mr. Chairman.

We have had some discussions with the federal people in this area. They haven't been finalized. I think the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs has stated before that we are looking at the -- up until now there has been sort of a loose formula the federal government used in providing additional funds over and above the EMO funds in relation to disaster relief. There has been some attempt, and some meetings in relation to

43-2236 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 formalizing that rather than -- in Ottawa they used to call it the rule of thumb -- that after a disaster had cost you so many millions of dollars then it was a dollar per capita and so on, and then 50 cents per capita and so on. There have been some meetings but, as far as I am aware, that particular part hasn't been finalized. In answer to your specific question, I think all of the organizations across Canada are, in fact, redirecting their major thrust into the civilian area rather than into the wartime area. MR. BUCKWELL: Mr.

Chairman, I want to ask the minister -- with your emergency measures, do you have any direct or indirect contact with the militia groups throughout the province? DR. HORNER: The militia? MR. BUCKWELL: The militia. Are they involved? DR. HORNER: We have pretty direct contact with the armed forces, Mr. Chairman, and through them to the militia groups. Certainly they're available on an on-call basis to the EMO. But we have a very close and continuing consultation with the armed forces, with the RCMP, with other security groups within an area, the city police, et cetera. MR. STROM: Mr.

Chairman, I understand that the federal government has offered to provide additional funds for anything over one dollar per person on any disaster that may come to pass in the province. I am aware that the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs suggested they were negotiating this program with the federal government. I'm wondering if either he or the hon. Minister of Agriculture can advise us as to whether or not they are trying to get the federal government to fund the earlier part of it? Or, what is the proposal that the provincial government is making?

I realize that maybe you can't outline a specific program but can you give us some idea as to what the provinces are looking at? My reason for raising it, Mr. Chairman, is that I noticed an

article that appeared in the press some time ago stating "Disaster Relief Funding Formula disturbs Provinces" and then it goes on and explains the program as proposed by the federal government, which I believe has some merit. I am just wondering what the view of the provincial government is? DR. HORNER: I might say initially that those discussions are still going on. In other words, negotiations both with my organization and through the hon. minister's department are continuing with the federal government in relation to that particular disaster relief formula.

The problems that arise come from -- and while there is some merit in what the federal government has proposed so far -- the problems that arise, arise out of definition perhaps initially in relation to what, in fact, is a disaster. These kind of problems are pretty difficult to pin down. My own view is that if we can, through negotiation, develop a formula that is sort of not rule-of- thumb, but has pretty specific guidelines, it will be helpful in the future.

I've been an advocate of that for many years, because if you will recall the Winnipeg floods, the Rimouskie fire, several major disasters in Canada, they have always been handled on an ad hoc basis without any -- and out of those several major disasters in former years came this 'rule-of-thumb' thing that was applied in a rather indefinite way; the floods in British Columbia last year, then the position in relation to the assistance from the farmers in the Peace River area come into the formula in an indirect way also.

So I think what we have to have from the federal government is a much more definitive program as to what, in fact, is a disaster, what does it cover, and how it operates within the realm of a provincial jurisdiction.

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2237 MR. STROM: Mr. Chairman, I can appreciate the difficulty in definition of "disaster". This is where some real problems develop. I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture could indicate to us what the government's position is in providing a disaster coverage where there are other insurance policies available. I am going to be more specific. I am thinking in terms of crop insurance.

I think the hon. minister is aware that quite often our farmer friends recognize that they can be covered by crop insurance, but if they have not been covered they come back and they insist that the government should cover them under some disaster program. I'm just wondering what the government's view would be in this area? DR.

HORNER: I think that while a general review of emergency programs cannot overlook the question of crop insurance and other types of insurance, after the experience in Bawlf last year, we asked the superintendent of insurance to reassess the policies issued in Alberta, particularly in the rural areas as to what they might cover. I think oftentimes that people outside the crop insurance field are not aware that their insurance may not cover them in a specific instance such as a tornado or a flood. And just how far you can go along the way of sort of spoon- feeding people is one of the questions.

But again I think it's government's responsibility, in the supervision of these insurance programs, to make sure that the companies selling this kind of insurance in Alberta make their clients aware of what they are covered for and what they are not covered for. And we will be continuing to look into that situation.

Insofar as crop insurance is concerned, of course, I think if the federal government -- again that's part of the continuing negotiation -- because if you have a reasonable crop insurance scheme, and we are hopeful that the one we put into effect this year with the lower premiums will have that effect, then down the road disaster as such will have to be designated as something over and above something you could insure for. I think that is eventually where we will have to go.

And as such we should be in a position, hopefully, that we can have a program going into effect immediately once we have reached those definitive points. That's again where we are trying to work the organization. MR. STROM: Mr. Chairman, a final question. Has the provincial government any information on flood insurance that was recently enacted in the U.S? I think in April. It sounds like a very interesting concept and one that I think would be worthy of investigation. I'm wondering if they have given any consideration to that one? DR.

HORNER: Again, I didn't say it and perhaps I should have, that not only tornadoes but flood insurance as well, and we are reviewing that now with the superintendent of insurance and the question of what kind of flooding is insurable. These kinds of matters have to be decided. MR. STROM: Has the minister seen the U.S. program? DR. HORNER: I'm not immediately aware of it, but I'll check into it. MR. RUSTE: Mr. Chairman, to the minister. Have you had any indication of any change in premium as a result of the, I guess you'd call it broader coverage, anticipated in this? DR. HORNER: I'm sorry I didn't get that.

43-2238 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 MR. RUSTE: Has the minister had any indication of a change in premium because of the broader coverage required or you are suggesting under these policies? DR. HORNER: It wasn't so much a question of premiums, Mr. Chairman, as the question of the insurer -- or insuree, I'm not sure which -- but the people who buy the insurance know what in fact they are covered for. Because it was our experience in the tornadoes and so on last year that some people thought they had insurance when in fact they didn't.

I think it's rather important that the companies make it clear what their people are not insured for. Then the question of premiums, of course, is a different matter. But I think it's particularly important that people, and I said so at the time, should review their policies so they are aware of what, in fact, they are insured for. As a matter of fact in that particular instance two or three of the policies were through the Farm Credit Corporation and there were some difficulties there as well.

So I have asked the Farm Credit Corporation, in relation to farm buildings, to reassess their position in regard to the kind of insurance they require. MR. RUSTE: Just further to that, Mr. Minister. You foresee that it will be possible to buy a policy in which it is stated there will be, say, the equivalent of tornado insurance available? DR. HORNER: I think it's possible now, Mr. Chairman. But I again stress the point that we were concerned that the people should know what, in fact, they had insured their buildings on.

And that's the really interesting thing that came out of a variety of these smaller disasters we have had, that people thought they had insurance and when they looked up the policy there were riders or other things that they found they weren't insured. MR. SORENSON: Mr. Chairman, the minister mentioned an area in east-central Alberta experiencing a cyclone when one person was killed. Has any money paid out from the fund? I just didn't get -- has the fund paid any money? DR.

HORNER: No, The fund has not paid any money into that particular area, but rehabilitation loans through the Agricultural Development Corporation have been made. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, I was interested in the remarks made by the Minister of Agriculture with regard to the possible change in the organization of EMO and making it more responsible for civil problems. I am interested in that because I believe this EMO has been with us a number of years and I never could reconcile this organization with any possible military disaster.

I don't think if there was any real disaster that they have enough muscle and enough backing to really go in and do something. That is a military responsibility. But there matters and situations which develop which require a non-military kind of operation. When you have an organization that has an almost semi-military set-up, that it means nothing when you have any kind of a set-up like that when there are no powers of discipline in the event of a disaster.

So I think perhaps the make-up of EMO should be changed, should be reorganized and should be under the control of some minister who can direct it quickly and efficiently and perhaps with power to provide more money in the event of some disaster. We haven't had any real ones, but we could.

I see the Minister of Agriculture is smiling, and I would like to suggest that if they are going to reorganize EMO, then for goodness sake take it out of the Department of Agriculture or any influence that he has with regard to reorganizing it, because after he got through reorganizing the Department of Agriculture we have a staff that is almost too much to pay for. We have

April 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 43-2239 $1,500,000 in travelling expenses -- and that is reorganization. I suppose if he can get everybody travelling around the province he thinks the department is going places. We want somebody who will reorganize this thing into some kind of an efficient operation without embarrassing the taxpayer. It doesn’t have to be more expensive, it doesn't have to be as large, but it has to be effective.

So if it is going to be under the Minister of Agriculture or any minister, then when we do reorganize it, let's not build this thing into a brand-new bureaucracy with the pretext that the morale of the public will be greater because we have some kind of an emergency task force that can save you from disaster. We have never had -- this outfit has never been tested in a real disaster. This organization was started when there was some threat of a military attack. I never could imagine what they would do.

They would probably be well organized to head for the hills in front of everybody else if there was a real attack. So that is my opinion of it. There is no power of discipline. They are not under the military -- DR. HORNER: Shame. MR. LUDWIG: Yes, he said shame, but I firmly believe that is exactly what would have happened. The jeeps would have been in the lead. So there was no power of military discipline. There was no power of anyone. In fact, there was no muscle in this organization to do something effective except on a very local basis.

It, perhaps, would have been demobilized in the event that there was any kind of a military move by anyone against this country. So let's not play this game. Let's get this thing reorganized and let's have a mobile force that can, in fact, do something useful in a civilian organization, in a civil disaster if one should befall this province. DR. HORNER: Mr. Chairman, that shameful outburst by the hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View has to be answered.

When he suggests that the very loyal people who are working within the Emergency Measures Organization -- and I might point out to him that it has nothing to do with the Department of Agriculture at all but it is related because I am the member of the Executive Council who is charged with their responsibility -- I think that is a shameful outburst by the hon. member and reflects upon the integrity of these people who work very hard and who have reacted in the disasters which we have had to date very effectively, very efficiently and very quickly.

The hon. member has absolutely no knowledge, because he has just shown it, in relation to this organization and to make the statements he just made reflects upon these very loyal civil servants who have worked very hard for the Province of Alberta for a number of years. The director who has just retired, Colonel Lavoy, is an extremely dedicated man and is retiring early because of very urgent health problems, and for no other reason.

He has done in my view an excellent job, sometimes in an area in which it is very difficult on occasion to get people's interest because there is no disaster now and nobody wants to deal with it. If the hon. member cared to do a little bit of homework he would find out that these people, in fact, are coordinators and are primarily responsible for civilians in case of a wartime disaster, and that they would work with the armed forces and the police in relation to the safety and well-being of individual Albertans. In my view they have done an excellent job in this area. They are well- prepared.

Having regard for the amount of money which is committed to them by the province, and that's about one-third of the total expenditure, the balance being recoverable from the federal government, I think that any hon. member who stands up and makes a speech like we've just heard should be severely reprimanded because he doesn't know what he is talking about, because it's a shameful slur on the ability of those civil servants to produce, and they have been producing in a very loyal way without blowing their own horns or anything like that, they have responded.

43-2240 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1973 The fact that we haven't had a major disaster surely isn't something to be gloated about, but something to be thankful for, and one of the reasons that we should have a little bit more respect from the hon. member. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, isn't it interesting when you disagree with something the hon. Minister of Agriculture believes, that he can't help but become abusive. When I make a criticism of any kind of an organization, it's my opinion. This organization cannot deal with even a minor military disaster whatsoever. The minister believes they can. I say no.

That's his opinion against mine. I believe that perhaps the better thinking in this field would feel that militarily -- DR. HORNER: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. On a point of order, the slur that I refer to was the slur that the hon. member made with regard to -- they would all run for the hills ahead of the people they were supposed to try and look after. I think the hon. member should retract that slur because it reflects on those people. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of retracting any statement I made. I didn't make any slur. The hon.

Minister of Agriculture is annoyed because I said if we’re going to reorganize -- AN HON. MEMBER: Shame, shame. MR. LUDWIG: If we're going to reorganize this outfit, then for heaven's sake don't let him do it because his ability to reorganize -- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. Please refer to the minister as the minister, not him. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Chairman, please keep order in this House so I can continue without shouting. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, order, Mr. Ludwig. Please continue, but please continue to refer to the minister in the proper manner. MR.

LUDWIG: Yes, I'll refer to him in exactly the same manner he referred to me, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the minister got his dander up when I said that if we're going to reorganize EMO, for goodness' sake don't l