Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 41 (29th Legislature, 1st Session)

29-1-41

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'c lock, Monday, September 22, 1969 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. REPORTS BY STANDING COMMITTEES 923 HON. AL. MACKLING (Attorney-General) (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I beg to report the Third report of the Standing Committee dealing with the Law Amendments . MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments beg leave to present the following as their Third Report. Your Committee has considered Bills: No. 2 - The Statue Law Revision and Statute Law Amendment Act, 1969. No. 3 -

An Act to amend The Regulations Act. No. 13 -

An Act to amend The Public Utilities Board Act. No. 14 -

An Act to amend The Workmen's Compensation Act. No. 17 -

An Act to amend The Natural Products Marketing Act. No. 24 - The Proceeds of the Contracts Disbursement Act, 1969. No. 25 - The Ombudsman Act. No. 28 -

An Act to amend The Municipal Act. No. 29-

An Act to amend The St. James-Assiniboia Charter and to alter the boundaries of the City and of The Rural Municipality of Rosser . No. 31 -

An Act to amend The Mineral Taxation Act. No. 32 -

An Act to amend The Mining Royalty and Tax Act. And has agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. MACKLING: I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture that the Report be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. The Honourable First Minister. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. ED. SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere) (By Leave) introduced Bill No. 41,

an Act to amend the Manitoba Development Fund Act. MR. MACKLING introduced Bill No. 39,

an Act to amend the Income Tax Act (Manitoba) 196 2. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I am advised by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been informed of the subject matter of this Bill, recommends it to the House . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. BUD BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre) introduced Bill No. 42,

an Act to amend the Winnipeg Charter, 1956. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood) introduced Bill No. 40 , The Manitoba Centennial Lottery Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this point I should like to direct the attention of the Honourable Members to the Gallery on my right, where we have 65 students of Grade 11 standing of the Glenlawn Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr . Wheeler and Mrs. Meleschuk. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Riel.

On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. WALTER WEIR \Leader of the Opposition) (Minnedosa): Mr . Speaker, I wonder if I could enquire of the First Minister whether or not he has considered the suggestion I made the other day about the method of appointing the ombudsman?

92 4 September 22, 1969 MR . SCH REYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'm considering it but I must say at the same time that I'm a little puzzled. However, I hope to have a chance to speak to my honourable friend privately later this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake . MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. In view of an

article in today's paper where one of the largest cattle operators or feeders in Canada has made a statement that because of the real drastic prices producers have taken in beef, he finds that the benefit has not been accru ing to the consumer. This to me is a very serious situation and I'm wondering if he could tell us whether he is doing anything to investigate whether or not any action is being taken in this regard? HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs) (Springfield): Mr . Speaker, this is being taken under consideration.

No action is foreseen in a few days, but I am looking at the matter. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Fort Garry. MR . BUD SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the First Minister. In view of his legendary prowess on the diamond I wonder if he can tell us whether the provincial government is taking any active interest or role in cur rent exploratory talks about the possibility of bringing Triple A baseball to Winnipeg and Manitoba . MR . SCH REYER: Mr.

Speaker, I can tell the honourable member that since the meeting between representatives of the baseball interests or community in this city and myself about two weeks ago, that since then, I have written to the proposed parent club the Montreal Expos and also to two or three other people that will be involved in the decision making as to where this Triple A Ball Club will go, whether it will be Winnipeg or, I'm not sure if it's Omaha or Tulsa -- I'm sorry Witchita, Kansas, So I can say to my honourable friend that we have taken whatever action is possible for us to take in this regard.

It would be helpful if the honourable member would lend his efforts to this and also write a letter, anyone of influence that he knows, ask them to write letters to the American Baseball Association - that is the Triple A group. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for his suggestion which I intend to follow through. Would the Fi rst Minister consider striking off a committee under the leadership of the Minister of Tourism and Recreation to spearhead a provincial drive in this respect? MR . SCHREYER: That sounds like a good idea, Mr.

Speaker, and the Minister of Tourism and Recreation will take notice of that suggestion. I might add that we should be cautious, not express too much optimism because I understand that the decision will be made by a relatively small number of people at one of their forthcoming meetings in Chicago. But the suggestion will be followed up. MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Fo rt Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs.

If in fact, this investigation is made and it is proved that there is a 53 percent mark-up in our large chain stores on the price of meat, would he consider making Safeway Limited a provincial Crown Corporation? MR . TOUPIN: I would have to say that this is a matter of policy. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable the House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, my question is directed at the Honourable Minister of Transport.

As he krwws , there was rather a bad accident where eight people were injured on the west side of Portage la Prairie last evening and this has been the latest in a long series of accidents at that locality. Would he undertake to investigate and report as to whether or not something can be done to correct any bad lighting or poor design in that area? HON. JOSE PH P. BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation) (Thompson): Mr . Speaker, it just happened that I was a few minutes behind when the accident happened last night and I talked to the police about it.

I have received a report and the report doesn't indicate any fault on the road. It was just one .of those accidents, maybe because it was raining too heavy. I expect to get the complete report in a few days, but so far there is no indication that the road was responsible for the accident. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry.

September 22, 1969 925 MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct another question to the First Minister and ask him whether the government has any comment on today's newspaper reports about a visit of Her Majesty the Queen to Manitoba next summer? MR. SCHR EYER: Mr. Speaker, I don't personally and therefore I will take the question as notice for my colleague the Minister of Cultural Affairs. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. JACK HARDY (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Tourism and Recreation.

In view of the confirmation contained in the local paper re participation in the Grey Cup Float, can the Minister advise this House as to the amount of financial participation? HON. PETER BUR TNIAK (Minister of Tourism and Recreation) (Dauphin): • . financial participation, I would think you are thinking of the provincial participation? This I cannot in form the House at the present time. We have a committee acting on this matter. We have to look at some of the samples that will be forthcoming to this committee, but one thing I can assure you that the cost will be very low. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churc hill): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I would like to direct a question to the Fi rst Minister. Would he be prepared to act as Ombudsman in respect to Port Churchill. I understand Mr . Jamieson the Federal Minister of Transport appears to be looking for a naval base in the Arctic in respect to the commercial and sovereignty rights of the waters of the eastern Arctic. MR. SCHR EYER: Mr. Speaker, the suggestion by the Honourable Member for Churchill, like many of his suggestions, is a good one and deserves some follow up.

That is why I would like to assure the honourable member that if the Federal Government is in fact thinking seri ously of establishing a naval base for purposes of asserting sovereignty in the Arctic, that if this is in fact the case, then the government of the Province of Manitoba should want to com municate, which we will do, with the Federal Government to see about the possibility of locat ing such a base at a logical point, that is to say, Churchill. MR" SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Cultural Affairs.

Is the Minister of Cultural Affairs considering a Centennial medal or some memento to be present.ed to all the school children in Manitoba in celebration of Manitoba's centenary? HON. PillLIP PETURSSON: (Minister of Cultural Affairs)(Wellington): Mr . Speaker, I'm sorry I was busy attending to something else, a bit of reading here, so I didn 't hear the import of the question. MR. PATRICK: The question was - is the Minister considering a centennial medal or some memento to be given to all the Manitoba school children in celebration of Manitoba's centenary? MR. PETURSSON: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it is the intention of the government to distribute among school children, commemorative medallions during centennial year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Fort Rouge. MRS . TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Honourable Minister of Labour.

In view of the fact that we learned this morning in Law Amendments Committee that the Workmen's Compensation capital fund is at $24 million, whether he might propose to the Workmen's Compensation Board that if they put some of this money into mort gage holdings that they might secure a larger interest return on the money and also do some thing to alleviate our housing shortage. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, since Law Amendments this morning I have had an opportunity of taking a closer look at the Workmen's Compensation Board Act.

There is set up under the Act, the Workmen's Compensation In vestment Board, who is charged with the responsibility of investment. It is my impression that they do not have the authority to invest in mortgages; their total investment must be in accordance with the Trustee Act. However, I know of the interest of my honourable friend in housing and mortgages and certainly I am sure that the ears of the Investment Board of the Compensation Board will take cognizance of her contribution to the debate. MR" SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, could I now redirect my earlier question to the Minister

926 September 22, 1969 (MR. SHERMAN cont'd. ) . . . . . without Portfolio, and ask him if he has any comment on today's newspaper reports about a scheduled visit here next summer of Her Majesty? MR . PE TURSSON: Mr. Speaker, I have no information at the moment that I can pass on to my honourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. It is a further question that was asked just a minute ago.

Can the Minister tell us if any other organizations will participate in the sharing of the cost of the float. I wasn 't so much concerned about how little was going to be spent, but for instance, the City of Winnipeg and the Chamber of Commerce and perhaps Manitoba Travel Association, are they going to participate in this float ? MR . BURTNIAK: Mr . Speaker, in regard to that question, the answer is yes. We're hoping that we can get all the people, different organizations throughout the Province of Manitoba to participate in it financially and otherwise.

One thing we must understand that, and I think we all do, that it is not a Winnipeg float really, it's going to be Manitoba's Centennial float which is the reason why we in the government are trying to help out in this respect, but it's primarily for the centennial yBar. MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. WEIR: Mr . Speaker, a supplementary question. I wonder if it's a provincial float why the announcement was made outside of the House when the question had been asked in the House just last week? MR. BURTNIAK: Mr.

Speaker, in regard to last week, we were just only setting up a committee to look into the possibility. MR . WEIR: Mr. Speaker, does the Honourable Minister not believe it would have been courtesy to have made the announcement in the House when the interest was shown by the House? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr . Speaker, it may have been a matter of courtesy, but surely the Honourable Leader of the Opposition will admit that this was hardly in the nature of a major policy statement, therefore no breach of the privilege of the House was committed. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister has asked for an admission.

One I'm pre pared to make is that there doesn't appear to be any courtesy on the other side of the House. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I must object to that as House Leader. We give to our honourable friends opposite every courtesy and I'm sure my honourable friend's aware of that fact. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. Can he advise the House whether Mr. Cass-Beggs is still on the payroll of the Provincial Government as a consultant and if it is intended he will continue for some period? HON. LEONARD S.

EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could answer that question, on behalf of the government as the Minister responsible. Mr. Cass-Beggs was hired as a technical consultant and his fee is in relation to a specific project. In effect he is paid in accordance with the services rendered. He 's not on a full-time payroll. MR . CRAIK: ... what I was trying to ask, Mr . Speaker. I was just asking if he is still working in his capacity as a consultant for this government. MR. EVANS: He 's available for advice to the government as required. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question. Does Mr. Durnin fall into the same category; is he still working for the Provincial Government too? MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Durnin was a technical assistant to Cass-beggs and our dealings are primarily with Mr . Cass-Beggs and it's up to him to decide whether he re quires services of technical assistants or what have you as the need arises. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . G. JOHNSTON: Mr . Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Government Services.

What is the government policy with respect to retroactive pay increases as they affect people who have since left the civil service if they had say, three months of pay increases coming to them but then left the service . Would the government pay these people? HON. HOWARD R, PAWLEY (Minister of Government Services) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker,

September 22, 1969 927 (MR. PAWLEY cont•d. ) ..... I'm pleased to receive this question from the honourable member. This morning the honourable member had pointed out to me a specific case where this very situation had occurred, and I'm now launching an inquiry as to just what the position of the government is in this respect. I'm very interested in the question. I hope to have answer for him within the next two or three days. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Fi rst Minister in his capacity as Minister of Industry and Commerce and ask him whether now that Alitalia has slashed its transatlantic fares from Rome to New York, notwithstanding lATA agreements, will it be possible for new initiatives to be undertaken to have Air Canada adjust the transat lantic fares from Winnipeg to Great Britain? MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, that would certainly seem to be the case. As my honourable friend may well know, for more than 18 months now the U. S.

Civil Aviation Board has been very unhappy with the !AT A arrangement and has been asking the U. S. Federal Gover=ent to take some initiative with respect to fare adjustments. It seems to me that now that Alitalia has taken that step and the U. S, seems likely to take similar steps, that certainly now the onus is on Air Canada and the Federal Governinent to do away with the rather inequit able portal system for the charging of the fare on international flights from interior points in Canada to Europe. MR. SPEAKE�: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR . HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker , I direct this question to the Minister of Mines and NaturalResources. The question of Upland game birds and its safety has been raised before in the House. I understand the department has been making some investigations. i wonder if he could make any assurances to Manitoba hunters generally and in particular to the Honourable Member for St. George and the Attorney-General whom I hope to join very shortly on a weekend shoot - can we take these birds home safely to our respective wives and enjoy the bountiful pleasure of our efforts? MR . EVANS: Mr .

Speaker, I believe I gave some extended detail remarks on this during the discussion of my estimates last week. But just to recapitulate very briefly, my informa tion is that some mercury deposits have been found in some of these types of birds in Manitoba. However, I understand also though that considerable quantities would have to be consumed before any serious detrimental effects would occur . However, the department is conducting further tests and I will make it a point of getting an up-to-date report on this and give you the information as soon as possible. MR, ENNS: A supplementary question, Mr . Speaker.

I take it then there is no thought being given in Manitoba of curtailing the Upland Game Bird season? MR . EVANS: Mr . Speaker, the final decision on this would depend on the outcome of this last set of tests, but I'm hopeful. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS . TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Honourable Minister of Labour.

Does he think it would be useful in view of the Workmen's Compensation Board 's tendency to be conservative, if you'll pardon the expression, of investing in only gilt edged securities, would it be useful to point out to them that in low income housing under the National Housing Act the Provincial Governinent can guarantee up to ninety percent of the loan. MR . PAULLEY: As a courtesy to my honourable friend, I doubt if the question really is a proper one for this time, but I'll reread her remarks and transmit them to the Board . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm directing my question to the First Minister. I notice on the Order Paper, Manitoba Centennial Lottery Act standing in the name of the Member for Elmwood. If this Act were to pass would the lottery be operated by the govern ment or by an agency or by a private party. MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, the contents of the bill will indicate to my honourable friend just what the situation is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR . HARDY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct this question to the Honourable the Minister of Labour.

In view of the reserve funds of the Workmen's Compensation Board, and I have no quarrel with the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, can the Minister advise the House as to whether or not these funds may be utilized in the purchase of municipal debentures ?

928 September 22, 1969 MR. PAULLEY: The same answer to my honourable friend; it's under the control of the Workmen's Compensation Investment Board. STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR.

EVANS: I have great pleasure to demonstrate to the members of the House the government's concern for the rights of all members of the House and that we are fully aware that we should extend all courtesies as making all policy announcements we can in the House, and at this time I'm pleased to announce that the Manitoba Government has decided to make available $1,500,000 for use on the Keystone Centre Project at Brandon. The Provincial Government will directly contribute $1 million, several departments have an interest in the project and each will contribute a portion of the donation.

Another one half million will be provided by the Manitoba Centennial Corporation; the total of one and a half million will be made available according to the needs of the project in the fiscal years 1970, 1971 and 1972. The government felt that it should grant this amount because of the exciting benefits which will be made available to southwestern Manitoba. The multi-use nature of the facility was particularly attractive. One centre which can serve many different functions from agricultural fairs to hockey games, to a drop-in centre for elderly citizens, makes possible maximum use of the resources available.

Although the initial cost may seem high; the con solidation of many services within one complex will eventually result in considerable savings. The amount of Provincial Government assistance equals the sum that the Keystone Centre Committee requested. The committee, ably chaired by Mr. Freo McGuinness, intends to raise another one and a half million dollars in the southwestern Manitoba area and hopes to secure additional financial aid from Ottawa. The Federal Government, I believe, has a devel opment program which should include assistance for community projects of the Keystone Centre type.

The Manitoba Government will do all it can to assist the Keystone Centre Committee in its efforts to secure Federal money. The multi-use character of the Centre will be stressed by the government through the allocation of portions of the cost to a number of government departments. I would also point out that the government promptly prepared and presented to the House

an Act respecting the Keystone Centre which allows for the sale of the existing arena. As members know, this legislation has now been passed and the proceeds of the sale will be used to meet part of the cost of the Keystone Centre project. This interest of the Manitoba Govern ment in this project demonstrates our concern for regional, economic development in the Province of Manitoba. The originators of this excellent scheme have shown foresight, re sourcefulness and a sound understanding of the community and its needs. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate them on their well developed plans.

It is this spirit and this imagination which assures Brandon and southwestern Manitoba a promising and bright future. Thank you. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR . WEIR: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the Minister for his statement and wonder if at some point he could give us an idea of the distribution of the funds to the various depart ments and whether or not they're contained within the existing departmental estimates so that they can be discussed in terms of that appropriate department so we won't be discussing it all over the place. MR.

EVANS: I think we can give you this assurance. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: With repect to the statement just made by the Minister, if other communities were to prepare similar plans would they receive the same consideration? I know the City of Portage la Prairie is thinking along these lines. It would be helpful to know if there was a policy that they could either have a look at or meet and discuss. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to think that this government would consider all well thought out plans that would be helpful to the agricultural community, that would help senior citizens, as this one in particular that has this multi-use purpose. As I pointed out in the statement, I believe the Federal Government also has a program established which will provide some financial assistance for multi-use projects of this type. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West.

,, / September 22, 1969 929 MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the government on this step. I think this announcement will be received with a great deal of pleasure by the people of western Manitoba and I congratulate you for making this decision. I think it will be a wonderful step in promoting our agricultural showcase in the Manitoba Pro vincial Exhibition and the Manitoba Winter Fair. I think this is a wonderful step forward and you are to be congratulated. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable the House Leader of the Liberal Party asked me a few minutes ago a question as to whether the proceeds from the Centennial Lot teries Act, if enacted, would - if the proceeds would be utilized by any agency of the Crown. That was the gist of the question. I'd like to answer it. MR. G. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): The question was, would the lottery be run directly by the government or an agency of government ? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I think I can tell my honourable friend that the lottery, if the bill is enacted, would be operated by and for the Manitoba Centennial efforts. MR.

G, JOHNSTON: The corporation . . . MR. SCHREYER: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The adjourned debate ... The Honourable Minister of Transportation. MR. BOROWSKI: . . . take a moment of the House to point out something that's caused me some pain and embarrassment in the last few weeks. There's been a series of ads appear ing in the local papers and the country papers, appearing over my name, highway ads and I've been getting some nasty phone calls and letters saying this is an irresponsible waste of taxpayers' money; and I think in some instances I agree.

What I want to say is that I had nothing to do with these ads; these were contracted for by the previous administration and they are ending at the end of this month. I'd like to say here for the benefit of the House that any future ads that appear from this department will deal with safety or other such matters that are worthwhile and not as the type that we've had up to now. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance. The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. WEIR: Mr.

Speaker, as a courtesy to the Minister of Finance, I'd like to ask the indulgence of the House to have the matter stand. MR. PAULLEY: ... as a courtesy to both honourable gentlemen you will have this to stand. MR. SPEAKER: (Stand). Adjourned debates on second reading. The proposed motion of the First Minister. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, the other day we were discussing the particular bill before us, namely the Act to Amend The Election Act, when time ran out and as a result the bill was left open for me to continue.

At the time that time ran out I think I was discussing the matter of the voting age and asked the government just how much research or just what research has been carried out in arriving at the figure 18 as the figure and years that the person has to be in order to vote - that will be the new voting age. I would certainly be happy to hear from them just on what grounds and what research had been carried out, if any, in arriving at this decision.

I also mentioned that I would be introducing an amendment to increase it from 18 to 19 because this is the voting age presently in effect in the western provinces of Alberta and British Columbia and I feel it has some merit. I think at the age of 19 high school students are generally out of high school. Many of them are already working and earning money on their own.

They are already taxpayers by that time; they know what taxes mean to them and the tax deductions that are made off their salaries, so that I'm sure that when people get that experience they will take a greater interest in how their money is spent and what is being done in government, where the money goes and so on. So that there would be greater responsi bility on their

part in participating in electio ns and in voting. Naturally, too, as the person grows older there is more development and that these people get more mature in their thinking,

930 September 22, 1969 (MR. FROESE cont'd.) . . . . . in their outlook, so that as a whole I think it would be to greater advantage if the age was rather 19 than 18. I was interested also in the remarks of the Member for Elmwood and what he had to say.

Then, too, I just wondered whether he would not be willing to carry out some research work in the matter that I just raised and probably another matter that should be researched - and this is the matter of whether female workers or female people should have a vote at an earlier age than male; what his reaction would be to that, whether the female is not more developed and further developed than the male is at that age. Probably he would be interested in carrying out some research work along that line. -- (Interjection) -- Russ would know probably with out any research would he.

The matter of the spouse being entitled to vote was already raised by the House Leader of the Liberal Party and from his remarks apparently the servicemen or their wives are entitled to vote even though they're under age. Should this not be carried right through then in all cases, that once they get married that both of them are entitled to vote if the husband is en titled to vote. I think this should be done in my opinion. I see no reason why not.

And cer tainly now if the voting age is going to be lowered to 19 in most cases they will be entitled to vote regardless, or if it's lowered to 18 then sure and by far in the vast cases they will be en titled to vote. The mailing of ballots for those that are not able to get to the polls I think is a step in the right direction but I'm just wondering whether this will not give increased work to the re turning officers and the people who are administering the Act.

I would like to hear from the Minister concerned just what is entailed and how much more work it would involve and how many cases are there actually over and above the present cases that are involved in the hospital vote. I have no idea at the moment what this would entail and how many people it would involve. Perhaps we could have some indication by the Minister sponsoring the bill and give us some information. I imagine the decision rests to a large extent with the D.

R. 0. although we find that there is a certificate at the back of the page that has to be filed and also vouched for by another voter, so I think that is quite in order. There is a further matter that I thought I would briefly like to touch on and that is some thing that the NDP Party has been advocating for many years. This has to do with eliminating the deposit. How come we are getting an election act or an amending bill brought in and that there is no action on this particular aspect?

I felt for sure that if they were going to lower the voting age that they would also remove the deposit. -- (Interjection) -- How come? Well does this mean that we will be getting further amending bills before this House that will remove the deposit? I'd certainly like to see it removed or at least if it's not removed that just a very nominal charge be made and certainly not put a licence on democracy. This is what we are doing by attaching such a large deposit on candidates that want to enter into an election. We know from the recent B. C. election that many candidates lose their deposits. In B.

C. forty- seven Liberals lost their deposit in the last election. Thirteen New Democratic Party · members lost their deposits in the B. c. election, and there was even one Social Cre.diter candidate that lost the deposit. I see no need for this deposit. I claim that it is actually a licence on democracy and I would certainly like to see it eliminated completely. The excuses that we have heard in previous years why this should be kept in I don •t think holds water. I don't think we'd have that many more candidates, and if we did have, why shouldn't we have. Why should they not be allowed to enter an election.

So I do hope that this government will bring in further legislation dealing with this matter and eliminating those large deposits. Civic courses. This matter has been discussed, too, by the Member for Elmwood. I certainly endorse something in that line. I think our younger people should be studying up on this and should be conversant with civic matters and how the elections are conducted and so on. I think it's a responsibility that they should learn at an earlier age than what they are doing at the present time. The matter of political activity clubs in our high schools.

I've been attending special events or special occasions in high schools and speaking to high school students on our parlia mentary system, on how we conduct this House and the experiences that we have and so on. I think this is very good and this gives the pupils also an opportunity to question us who are in volved in this and get firsthand experience and information. Therefore, I do endorse activity of this type in our high schools. To what extent you want tr. carry it this is another matter that probably should be a matter of discussion if not now at some future time to go further into

' ( J September 22, 1969 931 (:MR. FROESE cont'd. ) ..... this, because I also believe that our high school students if they are going to be allowed to vote at the age of 18 certainly they should have an opportunity to discuss and to assess the various parties and what they have to offer, their beliefs and also the economics of our country so that I -- (Interjection) -- Sure, why not. So that I am rather inclined toward that way and I would like to see more of this activity carried on. So with these few words, Mr. Speaker, I do support the bill but in a qualified way because I'd like to see it further amended.

MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Birtle Russell. MR " HARRY E" GRAHAM (Birtle-Ru ssell): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Emerson, that debate be adjourned. MR" SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion ... MR" PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might have the indulgence of the House be fore we go into the next bill. The indulgence of the House is that it's been dra� to my atten tion that dealing with the proposed motion of my colleague, the Minister of Finance, of Mr.

Speaker leaving the Chair to go into Ways and Means Committee, a request was made by the Leader of the Opposition to have this matter stand, and according to the rules of our House this would deprive him of the opportunity of speaking tomorrow unless it was done by unanimous consent. Now the reason for the Honourable Leader of the Opposition desiring not to proceed today is in deference to colleagues within the House who are today observing the festival of Y om Kippur. So my purpose in rising now, Mr.

Speaker, is to ask for unanimous consent, that notwithstanding the rule of the two adjournments that the motion be allowed to stand in the name of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPEAKER: (Agreed. ) MR . FROESE: ... just going to be dealing with this one item then I take it on Private Members' Day, which is actually government business, nothing further? MR " PAULLEY: ..• my honourable friend tomorrow we deal with government busi ness. The motion to go into Co=ittee will come up at the proper time, at 8:00 o'clock in the evening, ... government business. So it doesn't make any difference.

It's just . . . for my honourable friend or not. MR . FROESE: Well I wasn't objecting but tomorrow afternoon it's Private Members' Day. MR. PAULLEY: That's right. MR " FROESE: Therefore I was asking whether we would just be dealing with this one item of government business and then proceed with Private Members' business. MR " PAULLEY: No, Mr. Speaker, I assure my honourable friend that government busi ness will not be called during private members' business time. MR. SPEAKER: (Agree d. ) The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Govern ment Services. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR " FROESE: Mr.

Speaker, the Bill that is up for discussion now is the Civil Service Act or

an Act to amend The Civil Service Act and on a previous occasion I was not quite pre pared to proceed with the bill. However, I've examined most of it and I do have some ques tions arising out of the examination. For one, I would appreciate getting a

schedule of the pay range that is presently in effect under the various categories. Is such a

schedule available? It must be because the Civil Service naturally must have it in order to arrive at decisions as to when an applicant applies as to what the pay would be. I would appreciate getting such a

schedule for my own perusal and probably other members likewise probably in the same position. Then there are other matters such as the delegation of powers to sign, to delegate this power. I was going to c·heck into that further with the main Act. I don't see too much trouble with that; however, I do hope that when these powers are delegated that the necessary responsibilities are there too so that they will act accordingly, because I don't see that within the amendments that we are propos ing here to go with this particular power.

The matter of probation, six months - is this more or less standard generally or is this something that is particular to the Civil Service in Manitoba? Here again I would like to have the Minister comment on if possible. I notice that the Oath is brought into the amending sec tions of our legislation. The reason for this. In my opinion there is not any change in the

932 September 22, 1969 (MR. FROESE cont'd.) . . . . . Oath that the people have to take, but again if there is no change why bring it in? I would like to have the reasoning behind this. The major part of the bill has to deal with arbitrations. Here again I do not see anything wrong with the particular bill in that regard. I'm just wondering will the Civil Service Corn mission or its board, will they be allowed to appear before Law Amendments when this bill comes up? I would have some questions to direct at them.

Are there any strong differences of opinion by the civil service of the provisions that are presently before us ? This is some thing I think we as members would appreciate to hear, whether they do take exception to certain of the provisions that are being proposed at this time or whether there is any wishes that they might have which the government is not prepared to go along with but maybe which we as members should have a right to hear about. Therefore, I would like to have probably repre sentation from the Commission present when the bill is before Law Amendments.

I note there are various sections dealing with minor matters. The matter of the chair man has a vote only when there's a tie. I would question this if it was a larger board but see ing that it's only a three-man committee the matter doesn't come to play actually. Normally I think, in a larger anyway, the chairman should have a vote in the first place so that he would be part of the decision that would be made. But being a very small committee of three this does not come into play actually because he will then be always making the deciding vote if the other two are not unanimous. So with these few rernar ks, Mr.

Speaker, I am prepared to allow the bill to go to Law Amendments. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Minister of Govern- ment Services. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, .. . MR. SPEAKER: Will the Honourable Minister be closing debate? MR. PAWLEY: Oh, I don't want to close debate if there are further comments. Mr. Speaker, in connection with, firstly the question that was directed to me by the Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party in connection with

Section 23 of the bill and what responsibilities were being transferred in connection with that particular section. Just very quickly a rundown would be as follows, Mr. Speaker. The establishment of a classification plan; the administration of the classification plan; the establishment, the administration of the pay plans for civil servants; the application of the pay plan to individual employees; the

section 20 dealing with the retirement; the re-classification of a position and the effects on the incum bent of that position; the providing for the making of regulations dealing with compensation for overtime; the making of regulations and working conditions covering the employment of casual and term employees; the maintenance of personnel records; the loan of employees to other governments or agencies; the dealing with educational leave and assistance for employees; and the attendance at meetings of joint council.

These are in general the items being transferred, and the reason for this, to the Honourable Member for Rhineland, is that the staff is now made available to, and has been for some time, is available to the Management Committee rather than to the Civil Service Commission. The Civii Service Commission no longer has the facili ties that they are able to adequately deal with this matter. The representatives of the Civil Service Co=ission will be in attendance at Law Amendments, that you could ask them in more detail, questions pertaining to this. The honourable member requested a

schedule of pay range available to civil servants ... MR. JAMES H.BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I hesitate to interrupt the Honourable Minister, but do I understand he is closing the debate? MR. SPEAKER: That's right. MR. PAWLEY: Yes, I had indicated very clearly that. MR. BILTON: I simply rose on behalf of a colleague that intended to speak to this mat ter, but however, he has lost his opportunity. MR. PAWLEY: If I can obtain such a schedule, and I am sure that it can be obtained, I will make it certainly available to the honourable member.

In connection with the probationary period, re six months, I understand that this is an increasing practice. Again there will be questions that can be posed to the representatives of the Civil Service Commission in Law Amendments. Personally it seems that it is a logical move. A person should be able to tell in six months whether or not an employee is going to meet the standard set by the department; should be possible to test him out sufficiently during a six month period. It seems that a twelve

September 22, 1969 933 (MR. PAWLEY cont'd.) ..... month period is unnecessarily a lengthy period; and it is in keeping with the request of the Manitoba Government Employees Association. The providing of the Oath in the Act. This is there to provide more ready form and availability to those that wish to use the provisions of the Act. There may be other reasons that can also be made available at the committee stage. A disagreement on the Bill.

To my knowledge there was no major disagreement at all on the part of the Members of the Manitoba Government Employees Association even in respect to the articles dealing with compulsory arbitration. There seemed to be, to my information, ·. complete agreement, that compulsory arbitration was a request that they wished along with the other items; so to my knowledge there was no disagreement within the Association. Possibly we can leave further questions and detail to the committee, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. HARDY: I wonder if the Minister would accept a question at this time?

My apologies to the Minister in view of the fact that I did intend to speak on this, but I wonder if the Minister could advise the House of the ramifications contained in

Section 49. MR. PAWLEY: I don't know whether the honourable member was in during the first part of my address. He must not have been, Mr. Speaker, because I was dealing with the various transfers of powers contained within 49 (

a) at that time, and all that I might suggest, Mr. Speaker, should appear in Hansard tomorrow. I outlined the various duties that were being transferred .. It's a lengthy group of powers and responsibility; the establishment of the classi fication plan, the administration of classification plan, the maintenance of records and what not, I would not wish to go right through this whole list again, as I did at the early part of my address, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, if you might pass the next two items, Second Readings on Government Bills and call the adjourned debate on the resolution introduced by myself as amended by the Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Minister of Labour. The Honourable Member for Rhine land. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I haven't got my notes with me. I wonder if we could have this later on in the day; otherwise I would have to ask indulgence to have this matter stand. MR. PAULLEY: (Stand.) Mr.

Speaker, I would beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture that Mr. Speaker do.now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Elm wood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Department of Agriculture. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Chairman, the other day when I spent some 10 or 15 minutes dealing with some of the questions that were raised by my honourable friends opposite, I had arrived at the point at which I was to deal with the question of coarse grains marketing. I believe I didn't make any specific remarkS with regard to that subject matter.

I simply want to point out to honourable members opposite, that raised the question that the whole matter of grain marketing is under current review by my department and that in due course we will have some policy to state to the House, if indeed we have a position, a definite policy by that time. But I am undertaking some extensive studies into the subject matter to find out just what ia the best way to rationalize the impasse as we have it today.

With respect to the Member for Carillon, having to do with the question of assistance to vegetable growers, I believe I did deal with that on Thursday, so I won •t repeat that particular matter at this time. The Honourable Member for Carillon made mention of the fact that farmers are in some categories in a worse position today than they were in the 1930's. I don't know whether it is quite that bad.

I know it is a bad situation compared with other sectors of the economy and certainly I agree with him that we ought to do what is within our power as a provincial adminis tration to try to cope with the situation and to alleviate their problem as much as is possible

934 (MR. USKIW cont'd.) tion. September 22, 1969 within the jurisdiction that we have as a provincial administra- I want to point out in that connection that there will be policies announced by this govern ment with respect to something to be done for the grain producers that want ways and means out of their dilemma. It is hopeful that policy will be announced within a few days, perhaps early next week, with respect to availability of capital to redirect the course of agriculture in Manitoba.

With respect to the question raised by my honourable friend the Member for La Verendrye, with respect to the vegetable marketing situation and whether or not we respect the wish of the majority of :rroducers in the setting up of marketing boards, I'm certainly quite familiar with the subject matter, having dealt with this subject in this House on previous occasions in a very extensive fashion, if I may . . . I want to point out for the benefit of members opposite that with respect to the potato commission operation, the majority of members, of course, did ex press support for that operation.

While it was four votes short of meeting the two-third re quirements under the Act, and the fact that it has continued in operation, to me demonstrates the fact that the government although having legislation on its books was not quite prepared to stick to the letter of the law, or the letter of the legislation before us and that perhaps some thought should be given to amending legislation in keeping with the wishes of (

a) the legislative body; and (

b) the majority of producers in question. I don't think that we ought to maintain a policy, that is,

an Act which is out-dated and one which we are not prepared to live with. If we don't agree with it, let's change it and let's do things above board. I wholeheartedly agree with my Honourable Member for La Verendrye that this ought to be rationalized. This, Mr. Chairman, will come about in due course. As I mentioned during question periods·prior to this time, I had indicated that we will be looking at the whole question of the Marketing Act and that perhaps during the next session there will be some substantial amendments to that Act in keeping with points which I have just mentioned.

The question about the dilemma we find ourselves in, insofar as Veterinary Services are concerned is a very important one. It has been brought to my attention on a number of occa sions by various farm groups and indeed my department. We are looking at ways and means of dealing with the problem. I have had some insight into what other provinces are doing. Some are placing their veterinarians under the civil servants of the respective provinces; they are directly paid by the government to service areas. There are varied programs throughout Canada.

I think Manitoba has to seriously look at our program if at all we are going to provide the kind of service that is more and more required as we move along towards diversification in agriculture. I certainly recognize this and I am hopeful that in the estimates of my depart ment during the next session there will be something showing, some direction as far as the Veterinary Services are concerned. -- (Interjection)· -- You're not suggesting "V edicare". Well I don't know what it's going to be either, Mr.

Chairman, but I do know there is a serious problem before us and that my department and myself are looking at it and hopefully we will come up with some sort of a program for the next session. -- (Interjection) -- Hopefully you will all endorse it when it is before you in recognition of the fact that we do have a serious prol;llem. The Member for Pembina deplored the fact that we have from time to time strikes that interfere with the movement of agricultural products; a suggestion was made that some metho dology ought to be established to prevent labour strikes.

I would only say to him that I am sure he doesn't mean what he says. I am sure he doesn't believe in compulsory labour or in the slave labour trade. I can only take his comments with a grain of salt at this point, although I do recognize that from time to time there is a serious problem posed as a result of labour disputes, the likes of that. I think the area in which we can be most helpful in that connection is in good public relations and proper liaison between government, agriculture and the trade union movement. This is about the most positive way in which to cope with that particular situation.

In connection with that I want to remind my honourable friends opposite that it wasn't long ago that I had some discussions with the people at Vancouver and indeed I think it is possible to arrive at some understanding wherein we can reduce at least, if not eliminate, this kind of dislocation and this kind of problem in the movement of agricultural products throughout the country. The Member for Gladstone talked about the problem of the grain marketing system, the (

September 22, 1969 935 (MR. USKIW cont'd.) . . . . . fact that we can move grain out of the country into export markets; suggested that possibly we might be better off to abolish the Canadian Wheat Board and to in fact, give away our grain if necessary through the free enterprise channels. I don't know if we accepted his position whether or not that would indeed put any money into the pockets of the grain producers . I hesitate to say that it would; that it would only complicate problems that much more, and that, too, I take with a grain of salt so to speak.

Seriously, I don't ac cept that as a suggestion at all. I think if we are going to talk about marketing of grain, we have to talk about orderly marketing of grain and it is up to the grain producers to establish for themselves the type of marketing system they want, in that it is their own production that they are dealing with and they have the full right to determine what kind of policy ought to be set up to market their own product. -- (Interjection) -- A feed grain board? I haven't heard that one although it's very interesting.

The Honourable Member for Roblin mentioned the problems related to Federal dairy policy and the dairy quota system. I recognize that we are receiving the bad end of the stick, if you like, in connection with dairy policy. However, I recognize that the Fe deral ·Govern ment's dairy policy is determined to deal only with products which we can indeed consume in this country and that their policy is designed to discourage production beyond that point. I think that the provincial government in this connection can involve itself to some de gree.

I find that in many instances where we have people that have given up dairy quotas, the fact that they have done so was never public knowledge and that those dairy quotas were quite often transferred to eastern Canada, which they shouldn't have been in my opinion; that had we had the kind of publicity and information service that is necessary we could have indeed ac complished a transfer of quota within the same area in which the quota was lost in the first place. At least we should research that possibility.

I have asked my department to look into the possibility and ways and means of our department becoming some sort of an information centre to provide our producers with that kind of information as it arises. Hopefully we will get something rolling on it before too long so that we can at least watch what is developing with our dairy production in Manitoba, and indeed if necessary , to bring the necessary pres sures on the Federal Dairy Commission and the Federal Government to alter policy if a:t all in a reasonable way it can be done.

It has been mentioned by, I believe it was the Member for Churchill, that we ought to do something about marine insurance, Port of Churchill. I think I don't have to reassure him that the administration is looking at this possibility, as has been mentioned by the Premier on a number of occasions. The question arises: where should Manitoba go as far as the grain problem is concerned? I just don't recall who -- I believe it was the Honourable Member for Churchill that posed that question. I don't think that I would under-emphasize diversification as much as is possible.

I think Manitoba has a way out of its dilemma, much more so than any other of the three prairie provinces , in that we don't have the extensive amount of land in grain production -as do the other two provinces and therefore anything we do to minimize over-production in grains would make some impact on the total" picture of agriculture in Manitoba. Having to diversify three million acres , if you like, in wheat production is a lot easier than fifteen or twenty million acres. To that extent our problem is not near as acute as that in Saskatchewan, for example, or Alberta.

It presents us with an opportunity to indeed make the best use or" our agricultural economy if we put the right amount of money into diversification programs . Land resources in Manitoba are such that it lends itself towards this end, and that indeed the·two industries can complement each other ; that is, the grain producer and the livestock -- the people in the business of feeding cattle, hogs and poultry.

This can be somewhat of a team effort and that agricultural policy should be developed to that end without encroaching on anyone, for that matter, but a matter of working together for the benefit of the total economy of Manitoba. · This is something that we have to look at very sincerely if we are at all to avoid the ups and downs in the rural economy of Manitoba. And it's something that we can develop overnight.

I want to say that we are looking at ways and means and certainly will be attempting programs to do this, programs of information and persuasion if you like, programs of credit , hoping to somehow minimize the present situation as much as possible. As far as credit policy is concerned, I want to point out, as has been by the First Minister on one or two occasions, that it will be our intention to make credit available to farmer-owned corporations, if you like, corporations which have more or less shareholders owning an equal

936 September 22, 1969 (MR. USKIW cont'd.) .. . .. amount of share capital, or shares rather, and co-operatives as well as individuals. We do not intend to support a policy of agro business getting into primary production, and when I refer to agro business I identify it as people that have interests other than agriculture. I don't think it's our re�ponsibility to provide the credit and the support for this kind of entry into primary production. I would tend to discourage it as much as pos sible.

I think we have a farm income problem; we have to rationalize it and we have to encour age our farm people to either become economic units as individuals or to group themselves into farmer-owned co-ops or corporations, whichever they wish to choose. I refer to that when I said "as individuals". This would be the three areas in which we would be prepared to sup port the development of agriculture in Manitoba.

I want to point out that any credit policy that we adopt which will be revealed within a short time, it will be very directional; it will be a policy which will be designed to somewhat reduce the production of surplus commodities. One of the areas that we must take a good look at is what can be done to improve the cow calf operation in Manitoba in order that we may properly supply the beef industry, the feed lot industry. I think this is becoming a critical problem and it's an area that we're going to have to pay some special attention to through credit and possibly incentives.

This is something that will be revealed in due course. As far as Wheat Board grading regulations are concerned, as has been mentioned by the Member for Morris. He pointed out that the high protein wheat should not be grown except in southwestern Manitoba. I gather from my experts in the department, Soils and Crops Branch, that this is not necessarily so ; that a lot has to do with the managerial capacity of our farmers as to whether or not they can produce that kind of quality in wheat. It's not neces sarily a soil condition in itself.

My honourable friend from Lakeside expressed some concern as to where we are going so far as ARDA and FRED are concerned. I want to point out that the whole program is under review. While we may not change the over-all pattern, there will no doubt be changes in emphasis within certain sectors of the program. These will be revealed probably during the next Session , if not before, but at the moment the whole program is under review and we are not in a position of indicating to my honourable friend what our policy is with respect to the total program.

The Member for Rhineland talked again about inland storage for grain. I can only say to him at this time that it's a very interesting subject and I am thankful of the advice that he's prov iding for us. Perhaps he has a good idea , but it needs some looking into. This sums up most of the questions that were raised , Mr. Chairman; I' m sure that there will be others and I will be prepared to rise again. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, this afternoon-- I must say apologies that I wasn't in the House when the Minis ter of Agriculture gave his short address in introducing his estimates. He stated then that he was going to be very short, and I would too like to add a few comments to the debate that has already proceeded, myself. I think, too, I would be remiss , Mr. Chair- 1,., man, if I didn't extend my sincerest congratulations to the honourable member for attaining the portfolio that he holds.

I think that in view of the debate that he conducted in this House when he sat on this side in the last Session it would certainly warrant that he should fill that role , not to say that this is any statement in regards to any other member that might not be able to fulfill those qualifications. I was rather interested too, Mr.

Chairman, in the comments that the Minister has just made when my colleague here talked about the Canadian Wheat Board and probably we should find some other method, if I understood it correctly, in trying to solve our marketing prob lem, and the reply was that he felt that we should leave this matter for lhe decision of the farmers; and if my memory serves me correctly, it seems to me when he spoke from this side last year it wasn't the decision that the farmers were concerned about, it was the govern ment of the day that should be taking the initiative and doing these various things, and I'm rather surprised to see him sort of take a change of attitude right now.

MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, ... my honourable friend that in 1949 there was a plebiscite which determined the course of action that the farmers wanted, and I simply made my position quite clear in the House on previous occasions that if there is any change of policy it should be referred back to the farmers themselves. MR . EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm fully aware of the plebiscite that was

September 22, 1969 937 (MR. EINARSON cont• d.) . . . . . conducted insofar as the Wheat Board was concerned. Getting to some of the problems that I'd like to discuss this afternoon, first of all I would like to tell the Minister of an experience that I've had in my own community just about the last week of the crop year whereby, I think around the 23rd of July, we didn't have quite the three-bushel quota.

There were many other areas in Manitoba that had the full five, and I took it upon my self to do some investigating with both the railway and the Wheat Board, and I found that - information, of course, that the Wheat Board supplies to the railroad and this indi cates as to whether cars should be forthcoming to those various poin ts. The po int I discussed mysel f was in my own point where we were one of those unfortunate areas , and I found to my disappoint ment that there wasn't the proper liaison between the railroa d and the Wheat Board.

In other words , I' d get one story from one area and another story from another , and I think that this is a very serious matter when we're trying to solve a problem that is as crucial as it has been in this past crop year , prob ably the worst we'v e seen since 1956-57. I would apprecia te if the Minister could look into this particular matter.

Another matter that conc erns many farmers and also grain buyers , and I'm given to understand that in a given point where there may be three different grain-handling compan ies , they decide -- that is, the Wheat Board has no jurisdiction on this but it is left to the grain trade to decide who is going to be the one responsible for requesting for an increase in quota. And if I may just use an example to explain my point. You may have the Wheat Pool -- that is the Po ol El evators -- you may have United Grain Grower s, you may have Federal.

There's no sig nificance here other than to mention these names to explain my poin t. And we maybe assume that the Federal is the one that is chosen to ask for further cars when they get . . . quota. But say, for explanation purposes , that Federal still have room for may be, say, 50, 000 bushels while the other two companies are loaded. This , I have come to be given to understand, this is not a good arrangement .

I can go back a number of years when we didn't have this crucial situation where it didn't really matter so much, but when we're involved with a situation in which we find ourselves now, with the fantastic glut of grain, it's just not work ing out, and I think that there should be some impro vements made in thi s field . I also wanted to touch on the cattle situation, as the Minister has mentioned about feed cattle operators , and I have directed questions to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs in the past week or so, and even today. I was really alarmed to read this

article in today's paper where one of the largest cattle feeders has been very conc erned about what has been taking place in the pa st two months. I might say too , Mr . Chairman, that as a producer of beef I have been mighty conce rned as well , and I'm wondering what kind of co-ope ration the Minister is getting from the rest of his colleagues when we are discussing a pr oblem of this kind where the prices of beef have dropped eight to nine cents a pound in the past ten weeks but, acc ording to this article, we are given to understand the consumer is not benefitting by this reduction.

I can fully understand that maybe for the first week or so that prices start to drop , you don •t see any change , but after such a long time going by you would think something would happen in the way of a reduction in prices . I also questioned once about the increased costs of cars and the Minister was not aware of this , but I think that these things do hold si gnificance when we are talking about the farmer 's plig ht, because this is an added cost to him.

Not only would it be cars, it could be trucks or many other commodities where prices are going up and have no regard for the reduction in the prices of the things that he has to sell. And so I feel that the Minister of Agri culture has a very very important role to play if he 's going to be succes sful in trying to solve some of these problems . He also mentioned something about the veterinary services , and I'm in full agreement with him that a great deal of im provement could be made insofar as veterinary services are concer ned in Manitoba.

I know a number of veterinarians have come to me and discussed this matter with me that something should be done along those lin es . I also want to say, while I'm on that subject, a constituent of mine -- there's been two or three of them in the past few months who have come to me and asked me if there was any possi bility of getting some com pens ation for cattle and other animals that have been stricken by, say, a rabid skunk and they in turn become rabid. They have had to destroy them.

They have called a veterinary out to assist them and they have asked the veterinary about this but he says, "I 'm sorry, my hands are tied. I have no jurisdiction over your animal other than to help you to diagno se the case and what to do about it. " But insofar as compensations are conc erned , a number of farm,ers

938 September 22, 1969 (MR. EINARSON cont1d. ) . . . . . are wondering if something can be done along those lin es . There is one other subject that !t hink is a very touchy one but it 's a matter that has concer ned farmers across western Canada, and that is when we talk about the grain handlers 1 strikes , both at the Lakehead and the West Coast . I'm inclined to agree with the Minister that probably there is room for a greater deal of understanding.

Nevertheless, I want to point out to him that it didn't appear to be any other way than ob'\l ious to the farmers that when these strikes took place it was done for a deliberate purpose, and the one who really suffered most in the long run was the producer , and they don't feel that this is justified because it 's happened so many times in the past. And while probably it isn1 t all the juris diction the Minister in a p�ovince can do, it's also the responsibility federally, but I think, and I urge upon the Minister here, to do what he can and probably use his good offices to influence in that regard. MR .

USKIW: I wonder if the honourable member would permit a question ? MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR O US!(IW: The honourable member , in stating his position with respect to strikes, indicated that he feels the blame is always one-sided - he always talks about labour strikes . I would want to know whether he doesn't recognize that in many instances management goes on strike. I don't know how to define a strike . Who is at fault when there is a dispute , a labour dispute ? Is it management all the time or is it labour all the time , or is it some of both?

I think we must be very precise here, Mr. Chairman . MR . EINARSON : Well, Mr. Chairman, there are many strikes that I am not referring " to in my comments that I make this afternoon, but I'm referri ng to some of the strikes when they affect the economy practic ally of the nation and experts have said, when we made a $500 million sale of wheat to Russia it was the saviour of the economic situation for the whole of Canada , and it 's these situations that I want to stress that the farmers are concerned about, not all strikes in general, no.

Certainly it 's a two-way street, and labour and management they are both-- there's two parties involved and if they can't settle them then probably some- one else should step in and try to do it for them, but the point I want to make is that when the strikes do occur, possi bly when it 's affecting the economy of so many people, that the people should continue to work and in the process try to find some way of solving these problems, or the differences that labour and management have. This is re ally the point that I want to make.

I' m not speaking of strikes in general, I'm referring to some of the major strikes that have a ve,ry important bearing on the economic well-being of the whole nation; and this is the thing that I consider very very important , insofar as farmers are concerned at any rate. Also, there is one other matter that some farmers have brought to my attention and that is in the field of cr.op insuranc e.

We still have PF AA in existence and some farmers have been asking me whether there was any possi bility of doing away with the Pra irie Farm Assi stance Act in that we l,lave the crop insurance program and that it has developed over such a large area of Manitoba. I don't know what the Minister 's view are on this but I think that probably it would be worth looking into and seeing what he could come up with.

Generally speaking, \ agriculture at the prese nt time is at the crossroads, in my opinion, of some very serious times ahead, arid when I think of the times that the Minister spoke in this House last year, the importance that he attached to it, I would hope that he would be able to see his way clear , at least with the support of the rest of his colleague s, to see what he. can do to overcome some of these problems. . As I said, Mr . Chairman, I wasn't going to be long. I wanted to just make some of these comments to him and hope to hear from him a little later on. MR . CHAIRMAN : Res olution 6.

The Honourable Member for Birtle-Rus sell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman, in risi ng at this time , all I can say initially is that I go along with flowery tributes paid by other members to the Mini ster; I congratulate him on his appointment; and I feel sure that the NDP party have chosen for their Agricultural Minister the best member of their group. Having said that, I will continue and state that I am quite alarined at the nihilistic attitude of the Minist er.

He has assumed the responsi bility of govern ment and is trying to blame his estimates and pres ent condit ions as far as he can on the previ ous gov�rnment. Some of these criticisms of previous administration are justified and I, as one of the members of that previous administration, accept some of that responsibility. How ever, I feel that at this particular time in the farmer's dilemma, the attitude of the Minister is not one which will improve the situation with the farme r; it 's not one that will instill

September 22, 1969 939 (MR. GRAHAM cont' d.) . . . . . confidence; it's not one that would produce a feeling of pro gressive approach to the serious problem that faces us in the immediate futur e. At the same time as I say this , I'm going to say that in the picture that faces us today I am not one that has the really pessimistic outlook on the agricultural pictur e.

I believe there is a future for agri cultu re in Manitoba and ther e's a good future for agriculture in Manitoba, but this can only be achieved by good leadersh ip, by active participation by the farmers , by the farm organizations, by those in the grain trade , by the Provincial Government and the Fe deral Government all working closely hand in hand; that the problems that face us can be solved and they will be solved if everyone works together.

Now we are quite concerne<i about the grain farmer , or the grain producer , as being the one that is being most affected at this particular time, and I will agree that he has probably the worst situation in agriculture. However in Manitoba, as the Minister has stated, the Province of Manitoba probably faces a faster return to a healthy economy than the other two western provinces because we are not engaged in grain to the same extent in comparison to the total agricultural picture. However , I come from a constituency where grain is the major factor .

Coming from the extreme western side of the province, our picture there is very similar to that in Saskatchewan. In the parkland region we do have room for cattle in certain areas , but there are many areas in my constituency which are ideally suited for grain production, and if, as the Minister stated on his credit policy statem ent a few minutes ago, where they will be des igning policies which will be contrary to the production of products which are in surplus .... MR . USKIW: .... complementary, not contrary. MR. GRAHAM: Very good . I acce pt your correction then , Mr . Minister . But Mr.

Chairman, these are the areas which need any credit p9licy changes more so than any other type of agriculture. This is the area where there are resour ces , but the resources are tied up in grain bins and the farmer needs immediate cash. Now it's interesting to note, even though the First Minister is not in his chair, that he is leaving in the very near future on a trip to Japan - I believe it's the 12 th of October - on a trade missi on; I assume this is as the Minister of Industry and Commerce.

And it's also interes ting to note that there will be agricultural experts from the various walks of life in Manitoba who will be travelling with him , and I would urge the First Minister to make the agricultur al aspect of his tri p of the first importance, because agriculture still remains the No. 1 industry in Manitoba.

Now we all realize that the marketing of grain is a federal respons ibility , but the policies of the Fe deral Government I should hope are not dictated only by the Fe deral Governmen t , and I feel sure that strong repres entations made by provincial governments should have a beneficial effect on the res ult s of federal-provincial deliberations .

And I would ask the Minister to con sider some of the policies that are pres ently in effect in the grain trade , and one that has concerned me in particular has been the announcement by the Fe deral Governm ent in the past year in the establishment of a National Grains Council. I believe the policy, the principle of the establishm ent of a National Grains Council, is perfe ctly in order, but the pers onnel that were appointed to that National Grains Council are the same men that are heading the various existing grain handling organizations .

There's been no new thinking brought into the establish ment in this National Grains Council , and we need new approaches . New approaches are es se ntial in the handling of grain. And I, for instance, just question whether the appointment of a member of the Harbours Board would be appropriate in a National Grains Council. I realize that there has to be a tie-in, but I don 1t think that the policy on grain should be that important to have a man from that particular category placed on that council.

Going on to another subj ect on the Board of Grain Commission ers ' report on protein and the effect that this could have on marketing, I have no quarrel with the policy of grading on protein content . We in the western part , I think, would be favourably dealt with on that matter . There 's one point, though , on the Canadian Wheat Board's handling of grain that I think is quite interesting, and this is their proposed block system of handling the collection, the transporta tion and the disposal of grain, and I believe the faster we have this block system implemented, the better off the farmers will be .

As we all know, in the past the Wheat Board have issued shipping instructions for certain types of grain, and the end product that is delivered to the Lakehead or to Vancouver has been in many cases other than that which was ordered for ship ment. This has not helped the facilities , espe cially when the facilities are already congested . It has slowed down the movemen t of grain. It has caused considerable embarrassm ent to the

940 September 22, 1969 (MR. GRAHAM cont1d.) ...• Ca nadian Wheat Board and to Canada as a whole in the marketing of gcain. I believe the block system could help materially, so I would urge the Minister to press the Federal Government to implement the block system over the entire western Ca nada as quick ly as possible. Now, Mr . Chairman, last winter I believe some members of the government party - I 'm not too sure if it was the Minister who was involved or not - brought up the subject of bootleg tractors and farm equipment in western Canada.

This subject is of interest to many farmers , espec ially in the Farmers Union Movement. MR. USKIW: ... . accept a question? MR. GRAHAM: Yes . MR. USKIW: ..•• MR. GRAHAM: If the Minister will bear with me, I'll try to explain. In the past year, I believe the practice started in eastern Canada and it showed quite some interest in western Canada, whereby foreign tractors were purchased and brought into Canada by the farmers either singly or acting in groups, and they showed that this practice was of considerable saving to the farmer .

The farmer , when he went into this prog ram, realized full well that when he purchased these tractors there was no guarantee , no warranty that went with them, but the initia:l saving in cost was substantial, and I was just wondering if the Minister was familiar with this, if he was intending to encourage it, or whether he was just going to let it go by unnoticed. MR. USKIW: Well, can my honourable frie nd explain where he gets his bootlegging idea from ? He hasn't explained that part. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr . Minister .... --( Interjection) -- MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, if I may, to clarify my point.

I don't think that what he has illustrated is an illegal practice and that's why I don't understand why ... MR. GRAHAM: I have not stated that it was illegal. MR. USKIW: Then what's bootlegging all about? MR. GRAHAM: In the Good Farming issue - I believe it was the last one out - there is a major

article entitled: "The Case of the Bootleg Tractor", and why this story has to be told , and I wouldn •t want to read it to all the members because it entitles about eig ht or nine pages -- (Interjection) -- but if the Minister would care to .... A MEMBER: Read it to Harry Enns in your spare time. MR. GRAHAM: .... care to have a copy I'd be glad to give it to him. MR. USKIW: Mr . Chairman, I do have a copy of it but I still don't see where the boot legging lies . MR. GRAHAM: Well, I'm not going to argue with the writer of a story.

Probably he wants to create a: headline which would certainly create interest on the part of the reader s, but I wond er if a practice such as this would be of benefit to Western Ca nada rig ht now because the farmer already is facing a serious problem of servicing his equipment. Implement dealers in western Manitoba, I believe in the whole of Western Canada , are facing difficult times and these implement dealers have been the backbone of the farm poliCies and have Sf:!rved the farmer well.

Now, if a practice of wholesale importation- rather than bootlegging - if a wholesale program of importation was to develop in Western Ca nada, I think that it would be -- the long-term effect would be detrimental to the farmer , so I would urge the Mini ster, if he is looking into this particular aspect, to look also at the long-term aspect and the effect that it would have on the farmer in being able to avail himself of the services that are so essential today to the rapidly increa singly complicated farm equipment.

I think that any effort in this particular direction would probably achieve better results if it was aimed at the direct negotiations with the im plement companies and probably,· if necessary, to deal dire ctly with the implement companies to make sure that there are maximum benefits derived to the western farmer through the economical use of farm equipment manufactured in this country. Mr.

Chairman , just in passing interest, I note that the new variety of dururn wheat, Hercules , is to be available in a limited supply this year , and I think this variety of dururn has a tremendous advantage for farmers , particularly in Manitoba, because of the shortness of the straw and the strength of the straw, and I see a good future for this particular variety in Manitoba.

In the whole agricultural picture, I see a good future, provided that we have the co ope�ation of the Department of Industry and Commer ce, through regional development and the eventual marketing of an agricultural product rather than the co=odity of a raw material. We have established regional development areas in Manitoba; we had a very active Department of

September 22, 1969 941 (MR. GRAHAM cont' d.) •... Industry and Commerce in the past, and I would urge that through these regional development boards or areas, with the co-o peration of the Department of Industry and Commerce and perhaps the Manitoba Devel opment Board, that se condary industry in the agricultural field be established throughout Manitoba. Now I noted that the Minister has stated that coarse grain marketing will be currently under review by this government . I noticed also that policies will be developed in the near future and I would urge the Minister not to wait too long.

If he is going to establish review boards to look at these things, I would suggest that he do it immediately before other departments rob him of the various defeated candidates in the last election. At the rate that these candidates are - and other members of the NDP Pa rty - are rapidly appearing as special assista nts , te chnical advisors and what not, he may not have sufficient left if he doesn't act quickly. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , will the honourable member accept a question ? Does he really think that this government is going to follow the practices of the previous one ? MR.

GRAHAM: ....... have I seen any evidence to the contr ary. MR. USKP.V: I think you have. Yes . MR. CHAIRMAN : Will the honourable member proceed. MR . GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I won't keep you too much longer, but I want to again bring up the point that the Member for Roblin did , on the dairy policy in Manitoba. We realize that the dairy subsidy system is a federal one and that many dairy quotas have been allowed to go to Quebec, and I know that the previous Minister made many repres entations ob je cting to this practice .

This is especially important because Manitoba in itself does not produce sufficient dairy products to meet the demands of the people of Manitoba. In other words , Manitoba is an importbg province with regard to dairy products . And I think that it's very wrong to see dairy quotas disappearing from this province when we are alrea dy in a deficit position in regards to dairy products . Now, Mr .

Chairman , there is one other item that the Minister mentioned which caused some amusement to me, when in effect he said that by changing management and managem ent proc edures we could increase the protein content of the grain, and I would like him to explain how they are going to do this . . . . . . continued on next page

942 September 22, 1969 MR. CHAIRMAN : Res olution 6 -- The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIE L GIRARD (Emer son) : Mr. Chairman, I would like to join in the debate on the estimates of Agriculture but before, of course, I would like to extend congratulations to the Minist er. I think he' s conducting himself very well and I'm looking forward to a very interes ting relationship, Of course, in the field of farming I am a bit of a novice and cer tainly I see it from, not an expert point of view, but more from hearsay of the people I represent.

I bring to you, then, the farmers' problems in my area more or less as I see them , I think we have one spec ific area that is problematic in the eastern portion of Emerson constituency, and this is the problem brought about by farmers who would like to increase their operation but are in the area that is bordering Crown property, and they are frustrated in expanding their own property by the fact that Crown property is not available for rent or sale, and I would cert ainly appreciate the Minister 's concern in that area.

I think it's a worthwhile thing to investig ate, Now, in the west ern part of Emerson cons tituency we have, as many other areas of Manitoba have, people who are earning a living through the grain trade . Farmers in that area are facing the same dilemma as other parts of the province. I think that in the past these farmers have been able to obtain with relative accuracy, recent information that has been very helpful to them on a technical kind of approach. They've been told what kind of fertilizer to buy, what kind of se ed to grow.

They've been told the various aspects of good farming from a technical point of view because valuable information has come to them from the marketing point of view and from the long-range information as to the saleability of their product. Given that set of circums tances, many farmers have in vested very heavily into their operations and now find them selves with a product in surplus that has no value or has no sale.

I would suggest that it possibly is the resp onsibility of their organization, be it the farm union or the farm bureau or whatever organization that the farmers might have, to keep their members more informed than they have in the past, but in fact, if this is not done I feel that it is the responsi bility of the government to assist in all ways possible to keep their farmers informed on this particular aspect especially.

There is another matter which causes many farmers to hesitate in expanding and even converting their operation, and I understand that the emphasis now is on conversion from the straight grain kind of production to mixed farming or even livestock, but hesit ation on the farmer' s behalf is a reasonable one. We are asking these people to convert their multi thousand dollar operation into another kind of multi- thousand dollar operation without giving them any kind of assu rance whatsoever of the marketability of that product on the long-term basis.

And therefore it's reas onable to expect a farmer who is a straight grain farmer today to convert into a hog growing operation and find himself with a market that is not so healthy in the very near future. I think what the farmer needs is conviction that his operation and his investment is relatively secure. Farmers, for the past years, have worked on a very small margin of profit. I don' t think they are looking forward to an increased margin of profit but what they are interested in is a bit of security, MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GE ORGE HEN DERSON (Pem bina): Mr.

Chairman, I' d like to enter the debate again and more or less ask some questions , and I appreciate the Minister trying to give us the answers although I believe there are some things that he has under review and he' s holding back because I guess this is a matter of policy and he finds it very hard to state his position in these cas es. One of thes e, he said there'd be incentives offered. Is this in the Agriculture Department or is this possibly in Regional Development Branch ?

I was also wondering, when we were talking about immediate help, whether he was talking about something in the line of acreage payments or whether it might be on grain - total grain in st orage, And the other part that we differed quite strongly on, I think, is probably the remarks that I made about labour, because when I spoke, I spoke for some time· about labouring people getting more for their dollar today than they ever got before as far as agricultural produc er' s concerned. One hour at work never bought more food than it's buying today.

I went on then to state that the strikes, like the one we had at Vancouver, were of national importance and that I deplored them and I do n' t think they should happen - they shouldn' t allow these to happen. I didn•t go into the part as to who was to blame, whether it was management or labour. Now, we realize labour has its place and so has management, but things like the sale of grain which is so important, it' s really of national importance and really international importance, because if you don't have a happy customer when he comes for his grain and he's

September 22, 1969 943 (MR. HENDERSON cont•d. ) ..... paying demurrage, you've lost a real good cust omer and this is very important. It's really of an international scale. I said that I deplore strikes like we had at Vancouver and I don't think they should be allowed to happen again, and I'm sure I'm speaking for all people in agriculture when they believe that some way or another should be figured out that we cannot have these sort of things happening, -- (Interject ion) -- Yes. MR. USKIW: Would he offer suggestions to how we could deal with the problem? MR. HENDERSON: Well, I know it's very difficult.

I'm not trying to say I have the answers but I do hope that you, as the Minister of Agriculture with the responsibilit y -- and I'm not going to say that when you were over here you had the answers, and I'm not saying they're easy, but I do want to say that as the Minister of Agriculture, if you're working for the farm people that you will really have to see that these things don't ha ppen because they' re terrible. Another point that I made and that several others did make was market ing research, and when you were commenting you didn't state your opinions on this.

Now I mightn• t be familiar enough with the whole set-up as to know what your plans are, but this is very important because if we can convert this raw material into a finished produc t in any form it's very important because then we could pro bably have a market for it. So I'd like to know your opinions on these things, I think I'll let it go at that for now, if you'd like to try to answer those points. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J, WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin) : Thank you, Mr. Chairma n.

I believe I should draw to the attention of the Minister a point that came across my desk on the weekend relat ed to the distribution clauses of agricultural food products which, because of competition and many other characteris tics, is peculiarly vulnerable to pressure groups of all kinds, and I think there is every indication, Mr. Chairman, that right now that these pressure groups are going to increase.

Consumer pressures in fact may become more and more a reflection of the .. .. critica l forces attacking the primary agricultural industry and the producer as I stand here today, and I don't think we have to reflect on the experience that we've had with the beef industry. But the most recent and the most blatant example of a new type of pressure happened recently when a distant American union put pressure on local unions to put pressure on city council and even the churches to put pressure on the retaile rs, not the consumers, to boyco tt, .... and it seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that the problems of agricul ture, which are ma ny, tend to spill over into the food proc essing and the food distribution industry in many ways that encourage the involvement of more and more pressure groups, and even government involvement. The view that's expressed by some that government should stay out of the nation's bedrooms is not likely to apply as well to the kitchen of Ca nadians and Manitobans, or to the stores or to ·the farmers.

I only need to reflec t on the immediate and vigorous reaction to the spurt in beef prices for one to fully realize how far we have gone in the farming industry towards becoming what I might describe as a public and a dividend property, Here was the normal build-up of supply and demand forces which no amount of tinkering, short of subsidy in my opinion, Mr.

Minister could likely have been avoided; yet in a ma tter of a few days, a very few days, there was a clash between the Department of Agriculture and the Minister of Consumer Affairs in Ottawa which the Minister well knows; and in a ma tter of a week, I believe it was, seven days, a report was rushed through by the Food Co uncil and yards of newspap er items were printed; hours of air, many hours of air time were used - all made very necessary as a sort of defensive explanatory means of soothing the segments, what I say of a public ever ready to accuse, and in my opinion, to keep as low as possible the barriers of misunderstanding that seem to come up from time to time between the farmer-producer and the distribut or, to say nothing of the consumer.

I think it was a major and a very drawn out process that could have been avoided , Hindsight I think tells us now, Mr. Chairman - or reminds us sadly maybe I should say, that the whole time consuming and sometimes spiteful exercise could have been avoided. For the fact remains that nobody in the agricultural industry, the catt lemen, or the farmers, or the packing plants or the stores had the initiative or the foresi ght to use the market knowledge in a sort of a meaningful way at the public level to forec ast and explain to the consumers at least

944 September 22, 1969 (M R. McKENZIE cent' d. ) ..... the possibilities of a situation such as that. It' s a situation in my opinion, which was neither terribly- how can I say it? - abnormal, nor in many ways -is controllable, but I do believe, Mr. Minister, that it's a credit in the end of the daily press who continually, through their articles, brought about some measure of conclusion after reporting all the various blame shifting that went on and that inevitably crept into this unfortun ate situation. So I submit, Mr.

Minister, that there is no reason to believe, in my opinion, that the problems of agriculture in this province, will not spill over into the public domain. I think we had evidence of it here last winter when on a milk increase, the now Speaker of the House jumped up and was really concerned about the three percent, three cents a quart increase in milk and went down and sat in on the hearings that were being held downtown.

So again I remind the Minister that in the interests of the distribution industry of farm products in this province, that he as Minister should take the lead and make the public available of what is going on, why these price increases are in there and not lay all the blame on the farmer. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarriey. MR. EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr.

Chairman, we have heard some excellent speeches by members on this side and other parties on agricultural estimates and I think it would be foolish on my part to try to duplicate many of the arguments that have been put up, because of the fact of the seriousness of the situation as it presently exists that we need action at this time and not just simply words. But first of all, before I go on any further I would like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment to the position of Minister of Agriculture.

We heard you many times on this side of the House during the last three years and I was hoping that you would have the answers readily available to help us in our endeavours in the farming industry. I hope that other mem bers of the Cabinet are not holding you back from forming your policy because never in history have we needed action like we need it today. I only hope that we will see some of that vim and vigor that you so vividly displayed on this side of the House come into action at a very early time. MR.

USKIW: .... my honourable friend that there is no holdback within this government as there was under the previous administration. MR. McKELLAR: Well Mr . Chairman, I had only intended to sp eak five minutes and that just brought me to my feet for another 20 minutes beside that, because I'm going to illustrate just what you haven't done. You know it is easy to give advice, I found that out over the lifetime.

I never had that privilege in my 12 years being in the government, only in the caucus, I never had the privilege of giving advice to the Cabinet level, so now that I am over on this side of the House I'm going to take that privilege and hope that I can give you some ideas that might be accep table in forming policy. Because I'm telling you, don' t wait for 4 or 5 months to form that policy, the game will be all over.

I hope the federal government too, take similar action because about the 1st of January many of the farmers will be beyond the point, I think, of trying to go any further because of lack of funds -- not because of lack of grain, because of lack of funds. The Member for Rock Lake mentioned today I think so vividly about the price of cattle having dropped about 9 to 10 cents a pound since about the first of July.

At that time every body had great hopes that this might supplement the loss of income in the grain growing parts of Manitoba and now we come to a point where many people have bought cattle feeders around 35 - 38 cents and having to sell them during the months of October - November at about 7 cents per pound less than they paid for those feeders after looking after them during that length of time. They will eventually dispose of their grain but come out with a very little profit. Now where do we go in the feed lot business?

This is one of the great things I think where you thought you were going to play a major part, in supplementing the loss of income in the grain growing parts of Manitoba. Well I think that most farmers would have to have seco nd thoughts today if they are going into the feed lots becaus e they want to know where they are going and what the trends are going to develop to know whether their money is wisely spent.

Most farmers will have to go out and borrow money at 10 percent interest and they have to come up with not only the interest but they have to come up with all the costs that they are involved in and re-establish themselves into the livestock industry. It was mentioned by one of the members of our party, I think it was last Thursday or Friday, I guess it was the Member for Gladstone, that the average age of farmers is 55 years of age. That age was taken in a census in 1966 and I would say the average age of the farmers in Manitoba today is

September 22, 1969 945 (MR. McKELLAR cont•d. ) ..... around 56 years of age, which means that they have not very many years to go until they reach retirement if this is pos sible. Now most farms only have one man on a farm, so they are really caught in the squeeze of knowing how to readjust to meet present day conditions.

I am hoping that you will come up with something positive when you change your policies or try to develop new policies that will try to meet the needs of the younger farmers especially who have entered into long term loan agreements - well 30 year loan agreements with both the provincial and federal farm credit corporations and who have interest rates around 5 to 6 percent on the average, and will need extra money not only to pay part of the capital but also to meet the interest costs which will have to be met annually, while we are hoping that the principal will be able to be delayed for at least one or two years so that the farmers can get enough food on the table to provide their families with a living.

Now I have before me here, and I wish that more farmers would take this magazine - Canadian Farm Economics Magazine. I don't know how many farmers in our caucus or across the way get this. You don't have to send a group of people out to the country to find out what's necessary. We have sufficient farmers in our caucus or even yourself to tell wha:t actually the problems are. It is very difficult to find what the answ ers are because things are changing too quickly like the prices of cattle.

But in this book here, - "Expected Patterns and Practices in Agriculture in 1980 " - 11 years away, there's some excellent articles in here that relate to the changes that are going to take place in the production of wheat, production of coarse grains, the needs and the outlooks for the coming ten years, and assessment of export pro blems within our world.

One of the factors they explain, that if we are going to in this computer age -- many of the farmers in Manitoba, a large percentage of the farmers presentiy farming only have elementary education and it's easy enough for the experts to bring out these new changes but they have to put them into average layman's language so that they can under stand them if they are going to be of any good to the farmers of Manitoba. So I would like to suggest to you, if you bring out any changes in policy, that you have someone there that can write it that the average farmer will take time to read and also to understand.

And also maybe it would be wise if your people went around to the different areas of Manitoba and explained these changes in policy so that they might also have a chance to ask questions. I heard where you made the statement about cash advances and I was thinking at that time, if your wishes came true that I would end up with quite a bit of money just to put in the bank or pay off some of my debts that I had to incur on providing grain storage. I'm one of those average farmers because around me we have about half a dozen that are quite a lot bigger than myself. I have a

section of land. At the present time I have 30, 000 bushels stored up on a

section of land, 167 , 16 8, 16 9 crop, and to provide that I had to spend $5, 000 last year on extra storage and another $7 00 this year and all the wheat I have sold since the 1st of January is 800 bushels of whe at, a total sum of $1 200. 00. I don't expect I'll sell another bushel of wheat during this year, because there doesn't appear to be any space in the elevator, or there will be in the next three months, so you can be assured that the provincial government, the present Minister of Finance, or the federal government, under Mr . Benson is not going to get very much income tax from me this year.

This is another factor which I would like to say that in the year 1968 I only paid 20 percent of the income tax which I paid in 167 and I think this pretty well represents the situation of farmers. So you can see the depression that they get among most farmers of having not taken in enough grain to even meet present day expenses. Now you mentioned I think in your statement that you were hoping that the Fed eral Government would supply each farmer a minimum of $6, 000. 00. Is that not true ? Well I have in my pocket here today - and I think this is the cheque that I received as cash advance. I'm still carrying it.

I should have cashed it but I was scared the banker might decide he might want to use it for other purposes, so I thought !' d have the privilege of carrying it. It is just a shade over $3, 000 and I want to explain-- $3, 060 on an acreage of 550 acres. But I was not aware when I got this cheque that the flax acreage is not permitted to be used on cash advance so you have to deduct the flax acreage off before you can come up with an ac tual figure. So what that $3, 000 has to do will be far more grain thanl'll ever sell this coming year; but how far will $3, 000 go meeting the operation of a farm.

The cost of operating your farm - seed, your fertilizer, your spray, your taxes, your insurance, your labour costs, fuel, grain storage and you gotta live. Now I don't know where any man would ever get enough left out of that $3, 000 to put groceries on the table. It's quite true, that I would say half the farmers of Manitoba have no livestock. It is easy to say that people should switch. Now how are you

946 September 22, 1969 (MR. McKELIAR cont•d .) .. .. . going to go about switching? Unless the farmers can be sure and I mean that- that the markets are going to level off -- and I know you can't guarantee me that, the federal government can•t guarantee that-- so how is the farmer going to go into more debt as was suggested by the First Minister quite recently, where he mentioned that farmers would have to reorganize their whole farming operations in order to survive the next ten years.

I don't think any lending institution will lend money when cattle are fluctuating at the rate at which they have fluctuated in the past six months, going from a price of around $2 7 up to $3 7 and back to $28 all in a matter of six months. It's an impossible situation. It's only the man that has been in the livestock business the last 10 or 15 or 20 years can stand that kind of pressure, .b ecause he has taken the good with the bad.

I would hope that some of these people who say that the farmer must change his whole farming operation, go out of wheat, oats and barley and revert to livestock or revert to hogs, that I wish they would come up with the answer and tell the farmers of Manitoba how they are going to meet this challenge when the day comes, - It won't be easy and I know that many farmers are going to have second thoughts about going into more debt when we are in such a depressed condition as we presently are. Now, Mr.

Minister, I don' t like to belabour too long, because I know many of the farmers in our group have brought home many points that have been mentioned in past years gone by and I think that they have been very well dwelt on. But I have in my hand here a speech that Mr. Runciman, Chairman of the Board of Directors of the United Grain Growers, and he drove it home there I think in no uncertain way the situation as presently exists. He made this speech on August 26th in Saskatoon. There are four points he dwelt on: First, he says, "I believe any time the world price of wheat gets above $1.

SO, traditional importing countries will start growing more of their own wheat, either for internal consumption or export, and western Canada will get into trouble. No. 2. I believe that while the present wheat situation isn' t hopeless, .i t will get worse before it gets better. I think we will have tr ouble selling anything near what we've produced for at least five years and possibly more, unless a peculiar climate catastrophe has occurred over much of the southern hemisphere in the mid 1960s." What he' s referring to is the crop failures.

"A nd the third, I believe increasing the lives tock population will not come anywhere near using up the excess grain production of this country. When you consider an extra two million hogs or an extra half million feeder cattle only use up to 30 or 40 million bushels of grain, I think we will agree with this." And then he went on his fourth: 11And this leads to my fourth point: I believe that we need to expand feed grain exports, despite the fact that many people in Ottawa circles think we can't, and I believe we can increase these feed grain exports if we put our mind to it.

" Now these are four points, !think, which he established, and he goes on -- and it' s a very good speech: if anybody wants a copy of it I'll be glad to get copies run off. But in yesterday's, or today's paper, I think, it brings home one point where the last shipment of barley, overseas shipment, the Wheat Board sold this at 77 cents at Montreal, shipment, a drop of 20 cents a bushel from the regular Wheat Board price.

Now I'm hoping the Wheat Board will supplement this by bringing it up to at least the present Wheat Board price as listed in the paper, because if they don' t we• re going to have another price war on our- hands with likely France and some other country, and we're really going to be in deep trouble again. I think this action should have been taken last winter because I understand many millions of bushels could have been sold had they been a little more r1exible with their price; and I'm sorry at that time they didn1 t drop it one or two cents rather than have to drop it 20 now to get on the world market.

Now wheat, having been the main topic as mentioned by many members, has brought me to look at the paper, I think, and if you realize in the paper here, as many people don' t really pay that much attention, because our wheat is handled through the Canadian Wheat Board, but I would just like to put on record just what the prices of wheat are at the present time on the Canadian· wheat Board prices so that each farmer here, and if they're not aware-- now No. 1 Northern's selling at $1. 83, No. 2 Northern at $1. 79, that's a 4-cent spread, and here we're down to No. 3 Northern is $1. 67 - that's a 13-cent spread between 2 and 3 Northern; No. 4 Northern $1. 50, a 1 7-cent spread between the 3 and 4 Northern; 30-cent spread between the 2 and 4 Northern wheat.

All right, I thin.. !{ this really brings one point home, that we're really in trouble when you get that high a spread. Now, if they were only selling wheat I wouldn•t care about that spread, but it' s going to hit many many people very hard for those who were caught with a 4 Northern instead of a 2 Northern wheat, and I don' t know how long this will continue but I would imagine it'll carry on for a long long while due to the excess

' ) September 22, 1969 947 (M R. McKELLAR cont' d. ) .. ... bushels that we have on ou r farms and in storage. The price of oats is down about 20 cents over a year ago; one feed oats 65-1/2 ; barley 99 - 3/4, and so on; and flax is holding about the same. But, regardless of what the prices are, our elevators are plugged to the eyebrows right now. No room for initial quotas, no room for flax, and I can see little change in the next three or four months. Now I just wondered what discussions you've had with the Federal Government - Mr.

Pepin, the Minister who is in charge of the Canadian Wheat Board; I wonder what discussions you've had with the Wheat Board people in Winnipeg - Mr. McNamara; I wonder what discussions you've had with the grain companies who are really having to sweat it out in the Province of Manitoba- the United Grain Growers, the Wheat Pool, the Manitoba Wheat Pool, and the private grain trade, because I think that we at this time, I think, Mr . Chairman, we'd be well advised to follow the resolution of my seatmate here, the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, the House Leader of the Liberal Party.

He has a resolution on the Order Paper that asks that a Committee on Agriculture be set up to ask these people what their point of view is on the problems of the day, and maybe we could, among us all, we could do something to help the farmers in Manitoba.

Now I don' t know whether you're going to go along with this resolution or not, but I would say that we're in worse trouble, far worse trouble than we were at any time in the thirties, and I mean that because I know them very well, I came through them, and I think it's high time that the governments of the day will have to take action, and if farmers are left in abeyance, they don' t know what to do, then I think that the people who are in authority from now on are going to have to meet with these farmers and give them every bit of advice that they can, whether the farmers take it or not, but that• s a different thing.

Buti think it's up to both levels of government, along with all the grain trades and the Canadian Wheat Board, to get together -- whether they want to meet in this building or not, that• s up to them, but I think they should get together immediately and see what can be done to help the farmers of Manitoba. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think that' s about all I have to say at this time. There might be an opportunity at a later date because I can say a few more words on a different subject matter. MR. CHAIRMAN : Resolution 6. 1(a) .... The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (C harleswood) : Mr.

Chairman, I just want to take a minute or two to explain some of the problems that we have within the cons tituency on agriculture. It' s been gone over quite well, by all the members on this side in particular, and we face pretty well the same problem, the lack of a market for the grain. I' m probably classed as a city member although 50 percent of the Municipality of Charleswood is agricultural, 18 sect ions of land, and the bad point about this is it's near an urban area, some of the farmers are forced to sell, and of course when they do, it' s sold to developers.

They come out of there with a good price for the land but it jeopardizes the position of the balance of the farmers. In the country you get taxes, $1. 50 per acre, you get into the Charleswood area, it's 12. 00 to 16. 00. The increased assessme nt is also caused on some occasions by re-zoning of properties to light industrial and the likes of it. Drainage is a big problem there because, in order to drain one municipality, you've got to get on to another one, and this is pretty hard. To deal from one municipality to the other we've spent $1l0, 000 to drain about 15 sections.

We had to deal with two other municipalities, to give concess ions with our money so as to get through theirs, their municipalities. It' s an inter-municipal problem and I think what we need to do is to set up drainage boards - re-set them rather. We had them; they were abandoned; and I think that's the thing we have to have again. It' s the same problem, I'm sure, that goes on through the balance of the province. We had to cut through MacDonald and also through Fort Garry, and it's just about impossible to make deals . The west end of the municipality is involved with the same problem.

We• re trying to get over the As siniboine River. To do it, we've got to go through Cartier and they are also hard to deal with. If we could, in the first instance, at the east end of the municipality drain into the Assiniboine River we would have no problem, but there the river is about eight feet higher than the south end of our property and we have to drain to the Red. That is our two maj or problems, Mr. Chairman, and I don' t want to hold up the procedure of the House here. I know that we• re on a speed-up motion and sand box situations don't help it so I'll leave it at that. Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN : Res olution 6. 1(a)--passed; (b)--pas sed; (c)--pa ssed; (d)--passed. The Honourable Member for Rhineland.

948 September 22, 1969 MR. FROESE : I had hoped the Member for Arthur would speak previous to me. However, the other night when I did speak we were short of time and I was rather remiss in congratulating the Minister on his appointment, and also his staff on their work, their hard work in carrying out the duties of the dep artment. I do wish him well and I do hope that he is able to solve some of the problems that are confronting the farmers in Manitoba today. I know there are many and they're mounting instead of declining.

One of the main items that I was interested in speaking on, has to do with the matter of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. Some of the members who are new here are probably not aware as much of the functions of the former Agricultural Cr edit Corporation and the way it functioned before and the way that it made direct loans to farmers, and that younger farmers were subsidized in the way of interest rates through the previous arrangement.

This worked out, I think, very satisfactorily; in fact, many young farmers bought farms, either from their fathers or from other people, and in this way got set up in the business of farming. I think this served a very valuable purpose and at the time that the act was changed I certainly reserved my position on the matter because I felt that we should not make the change that we did, and opposed it at that time, And I think we're seeing some of the resu lts now of the changes that were made, because now we have just the federal Farm Loan Corporation from which to get credit.

That' s the only source of credit available to farmers in west ern Canada to buy properties and .... farmers to sell, and in this way be able to make satisfactory financial arrangements and settlements. I feel that this was a mistake and I feel that this should be rectified. I feel that the pres ent government should proceed and bring into being the former Act. We need the provisions of the former Act so that we are not tied to one big

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-1-41
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 1st hansardpdf 41.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	63f1a992cac2623875e3894747da1180636e7369

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