Manitoba Hansard — 17 May 1999 (Sitting 28, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-28

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 28- 1:30 p.m., Monday, May 17, 1999

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

1349 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 17, 1999 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee Report Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has considered Bill 22, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1999; Loi de 1999 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives en matiere de fiscalite, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flood Conditions Hon. Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Natura l Resources): I have a statement for the House, Madam Speaker. The Souris River watershed received another drenching last Friday, on Friday evening and Saturday, with another 25 to 35 milli metres of rain over most of the area with the heaviest rainfall in the Melita and the Napinka areas. The rain has worsened flooding conditions through out most of the watershed with the Souris River rising cl ose to crests observed in mid-April. The river will again become a mile or so wide from the U.S. boundary to about Hartney.

Crests are expected in the Melita area this coming weekend with more downstream locations to crest around May 24. This is based on normal weather conditions from now on. Environment Canada is forecasting drier weather for the coming week. An additional concern is that heavy rain has caused extensive flooding of fields as soils are becoming waterlogged, and virtually all low areas have become small lakes. The flooding situation on agricultural lands away from the river is worse than it was in April. Significant rises are occurring and will exceed bank-full capacity in lower areas. Some smaller drains have crested.

Larger tributaries such as the Antler River will crest at or above flood stage near the middle of this week. It will likely be early June before the Souris River will return to its banks, and it will be mid-June before low lying lands in the Coulter area will become workable. In other areas, rainfall is also heavy in the Assiniboine River watershed, particularly from St. Lazare to Brandon. Near bank-full con ditions are expected in the region for the next week or so. Rainfall is significant over the Pembina River watershed and will result in higher levels and a longer duration of flooding in this area.

So we can hope that the outlook for warmer, drier weather holds, or we are seeing a continuing bad situation for the farmers in this area. * (1 335) Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for bringing forth this update on flood conditions, particularly in the southwest and western part of our province. I join, too, with him in of f ering our best hopes for the people living along the Souris, Assiniboine and the Pembina rivers watersheds in their efforts to fight the flood.

I want to pay particular attention to farmers in those areas who are right now experiencing difficulty in planting their crops. We know how important agriculture is to this part of the province, so we hope that the conditions that they are experiencing now do not last for a long time and that Mother Nature changes her mind and provides a little bit of

1350 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1999 sunshine and a little bit of a breeze to dry conditions in this area. I also want to pay attention to the local flood fighters in these communities who are battling the forces of nature and trying to protect their farms and their homes and their communiti es. It is our hope as well, once the flood conditions subside, that the provincial government will work co-operatively with local rural municipalities and town councils in the flood fighting effort and also in compensation and reimbursement of equipment that will be used in the attempts to contain the floods.

So with that, Madam Speaker, from this side of the House we wish the people of these watersheds all the best and look forward to the time when the farmers can get out and do their seeding and contribute to the economy of that part of the area and sustain their own livelihoods. Thank you, Madam Speaker. TABLING OF REPORTS Madam Speaker: I have two reports to table: firstly, the Statutory Report of the Chief Electoral Officer on the Charleswood By election; and the Annual Report. of the Chief Electoral Officer on The Election Finances Act, 1997.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw attention to the public gallery where we have this afternoon Myrna Phillips, the former Speaker and the former member for Wolseley. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Crown Lands Purchase/Leasing Policy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, a 1990 policy and procedure manual dealing with agricultural Crown lands has reasons for rejecting the sale of Crown lands for agricult ural purposes.

One reason is wildlife management areas, and the second reason is a refuge area. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): has there been any change in the policy for rejecting the sale of that land? Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, there are these broad policies within the management guidelines for agricultural Crown lands which from time to time are challenged by persons who wish to purchase them. The honourable member for Swan River (Mrs. Wowchuk) just last week brought several of those examples to the House.

I remind the honourable member for Concordia that the sale of Crown lands is administrated by my col league the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings). * (1 340) Mr. Doer: I would remind the Minis ter of Agriculture that in a

section dealing with Crown lands, it says it must be closely co-ordinated between the Ministry of Natural Resources and the Ministry of Agriculture. Having said that, the Premier did not answer the question. In 1965, Sleeve Lake game bird refuge was designated. Looking back through the years, in '86 it continued to be a game bird refuge, and in 1996, the Premier signed an Order-in-Council in November 1996, selling Sections 10, 22 and 27 of Township 24, which was a game bird refuge. I would like to ask the Premier: why did they not follow their own guidelines and manual on rejecting these requested sales? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Without accepting any of the

preamble as being accurate, Madam Speaker, I will take the question as notice and return with a response. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the Premier signed the Order-in-Council in November of 1996 converting a game bird refuge to agricultural land, contrary to the policy. This land was sold to Roland, Kris and Carl Barrett. I would like to ask the Premier: did they change the policy from the policy in 1990, and if they have, can he table it in this House, please?

May 17 , 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1351 Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I will take the question as notice and return with a response for the member. Mr. Doer: I would like to ask the Premier, who is responsible for policy, my first question: did the government change the policy dealing on the sale of Crown land? Did they change the policy for reasons to reject those sales, or did somebody get a decision from this government that was favourable, against the policies of this govern ment, Madam Speaker? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, Madam Speaker, without accepting the

preamble of the Leader of the Opposition, let me remind them that there are a number of situations where management of land swaps occur where better-quality refuge can be found where we, in fact, change the management plan. In fact, related to this very type of management decision, the Cattle Producers Association of Manitoba is currently concerned about whether or not some wildlife areas could in fact have a multiple use on them and improve the habitat, as opposed to otherwise when it is left in an unattended state. So, without accepting the

preamble, I indicate to him that these management issues are consi stently under review. Mr. Doer: The minister, the Premier and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) never answered the question. I asked whether the policy of the government for reasons to reject the sale of Crown land-has that policy changed, or did the Barretts get preferential treatment with the decision signed by the Premier in the Order in-Council in November 1996? Did the policy change, or did the application of the policy change based on who was applying? Mr.

Cummings: Madam Speaker, we do not change policy depending on the applicant, and I will certainly review this issue. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the Sleeve Lake game bird refuge was clearly within the guidelines and policies of the government to be rejected by the government for conversion of a Crown land to agricu ltural land. Can the Premier indicate what use would it be for the Barretts for the government to agree to convert this land from a game refuge for the agricultural purposes? * (1 345) Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the member has rephrased his question six different ways.

I told him in the beginning that I do not have that information at my fingertips. I am sure that the- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I said that I would take the question as notice and bring back a response for the member. Health Care System Advertising Campaign Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

If the Pr emier does not call a provincial election tomorrow, despite the hoopla of last Wednesday, I suspect a large part of it will be because the province and the people in the province of Manitoba do not believe this government on health care, and it will also be because the government wasted $500,000 of taxpayers' money that should have gone into patient care on an advertising campaign.

Now I am of f ering the Premier an opportunity to definitively state today that the government will not spend another cent of taxpayers' dollars that is in this budget for health care for any government propaganda ads leading up to whenever a provincial election is called. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I sense the desperation in the member's- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I sense their desperation, having had the anticipation of an election and committing their own hundreds of thousands of dollars to those Tory-blue billboards that are going to turn orange over the

1352 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1999 summer as they reflect the true colo urs and the true principles of the members opposite. Given that the members opposite supported our budget and our commitments to spending, I am sure that they will approve of all the decisions that we make during the coming year. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the Premier, who has raised some grave concerns in this House insofar as he is not committing to saying no more public money at the public Tory propaganda ads that were paid for in last year's appropriation, definitely say it is no longer government policy to use money that can go to home care, personal care homes and waiting lists on Tory propaganda ads? Will he make that statement today? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, this government and the people of Manitoba today are spending $1. 5 million a day of interest on the debt that they accumulated when they were in office when they advertised more than any previous govern ment and any current government in hi story. They spent close to a million dollars just simply advertising Limestone, a public investment that was done years ahead of its time just so that they could improve their opportunities. That is what they did on advertising. Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (135 0) Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, Beauschesne's Citation 417 is quite clear. In fact, the Premier in this case was not even close to answering the question. We realize the Premier may be a little bit frustrated, but I would suggest that this kind of rant that we heard from the Premier might be more suitable for an election campaign. We are prepared for that anytime, but it certainly is not appropriate for Question Period. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order.

It is obvious that the Premier has touched a very soft spot with members opposite and that he continues to point out their hypocrisy, one day voting for the budget, next day opposing it, one day opposing advertising, the next supporting it-tactics rather than policy over and over again. Their point is out of order. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson did not have a point of order. * * * Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I know that the members opposite are getting a little flummoxed over all these issues, but I will conclude by saying this group, when they were in govern ment under the Pawley-Doer administration, the members opposite spent more money on advertising than any government in the history of this province, and they should be ashamed at their hypocrisy in even raising the issue. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, how does the Premier explain to the people of Manitoba-many of whom are waiting in hallways for services, who cannot get into personal care home beds, where there are the longest waiting lists in the country, who have suffered II years of dismal, awful management of the health care system that the Premier is justified spending their money not on those health services but on ads designed to try to re-elect a government that has mismanaged the health care system for 11 years? Yes or no, are you going to cancel any more ads like that? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, as I speak with Manitobans throughout the province and including many in our health care system, they tell us that they want proper information on the plans for the future, and Manitobans deserve information on the plans for the future of the health care system in our province. We will ensure that is provided. Education System Advertising in Schools Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

May 17 , 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 53 This minister has already confirmed that he is prepared to send Manitoba students' schools to watch commercial advertising, but I wonder why the minister is prepared to allow one corporation and not another to advertise to our children. Why is he advocating, for example, Nike over Adidas, Pepsi over Coke, or Com Pops over Raisin Bran? Could he tell us what his purpose is in allowing this kind of exclusive advertising in schools? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the honourable member is totally wrong in what she has said.

I have endorsed or authorized nothing in this matter. I have made it very clear that unlike the NDP, I would not usurp the powers and the responsibilities of individual school divisions. New Democrats, day after day, remind us they will take over the responsibilities of school divisions. We will not. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, would the minister then tell us what his response has been to the Miles Macdonell parents in River East School Division who have written to him telling him that, in their view, this is an unconscionable move and that their children's minds are not for sale? Mr.

McCrae: Madam Speaker, we on this side of the House take considerable pride in the support that we have offered to parent organizations in the province of Manitoba to do exactly as the honourab le member suggests, advocate for what they think to be best in their particular school, whether it be Miles Macdonell or River East or Interlake, which takes another view. Every division should be listening, I suggest, to their parent councils and consulting those parent councils, and if a certain decision comes out a certain way in one division, it does not have to happen that way in the other.

The divisions are there to reflect what the people in those divisions want to have. Madam Speaker, this is a good discussion for divisions to be having with teachers and parents, and the honourable member again has made it very clear New Democrats tend to rule from their ivory towers on Broadway avenue. It is an arrogant approach that I do not accept. * (1 35 5) Ms. Friesen: Would the minister, who in fact with the Norrie commission wanted to elimin ate half the school divisions without their consent let us talk about ivory tower- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Would the honourable member for Wolseley please pose her question now. Ms. Friesen: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Would the minister confirm that the real reason that school divisions and trustees are looking at the offers of the Youth News Network is because this government has cut educational funding, made serious cuts after the last election and, in fact, is now devoting less money to public school education than it was 10 years ago? Sorry, seven. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the honourable member is wrong on both counts.

With respect to the Norrie report, the province has not opted to force amalgamations of school divisions. Mr. Roy Schellenberg, former president of the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, is out there attempting to work with divisions to find out where synergies and efficiencies exist, and where that happens, to try to broker arrange ments between divisions. It may or may not result in amalgamations, but it should result in better efficiency of the taxpayers' dollars. On the other part of the question, the honourable member just brings everything back to the issue of reductions.

You know, school divisions are looking at the specific Athena proposal in whatever way they see fit. The honourable member cannot on the one hand support the budget that was brought forward by the honourable member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilles hammer), the Minis ter of Finance, and daily in this House or in Estimates, joined by all her colle agues, cut the legs out from under their Leader who says he now supports balanced budgets. Health Care System Emergency Units-Waiting Times Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, the Liberal Party town hall on health

1354 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May I7 , I9 99 care, which engaged more than I ,500 Manitobans, revealed the shocking situation that more than 7I percent of those who took

part in the survey believed that one or more people in Manitoba will die in the next year after being turned away from a full-up emergency ward at a Manitoba hospital. Can the Minis ter of Health provide detailed information on what waiting times at hospital emergency rooms in Manitoba are? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): look forward to the member for Inkster sharing his information with me from that survey that I gather their party undertook. Again, we have talked about issues like access to our health care system.

More Manitobans are using our health care system in terms of our surgeries, our surgical procedures than ever before. The numbers going through our hospitals continue to be at just as high levels, although some of them are now doing it on an outpatient basis where they do not need to go and spend a day or two in the hospital-are going in and getting their procedure done in the same day. If you look at our waiting lists for diagnostic tests, they are all coming down, you look at CT scans, ultrasounds, bone density testing, and so on.

So, again, in large part, because of the additional resources, we have been able to address, and our plan for the future of health care services continues to be improved right across the board. Physician Resources General Practitioners Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I would encourage the Minis ter of Health- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, my question for the Minis ter of Health is to ask the minister if he is prepared to provide detailed information on where there are now shortages of general practitioners and special ists in Manitoba. For the information that he wants from the Liberal Party, he can look up the website; and all I ,500 results of that survey are in fact available, so he could have his staff click in today if he so wanted. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, again, Madam Speaker, we are certainly prepared to continue to provide more and more information.

This seems to be in contrast to the question from the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). We have the one member here from Inkster asking for more and more information to Manitobans on issues like reductions in waiting lists, on issues like access to family practitioners and other services within our health care system. I happen to agree with him.

I think there is a responsibili ty on government to continue to provide information so that individual citiz ens, Manitobans are well informed of the changes taking place in their health care system and their access to very important services like diagnostic testing, surgical procedures, access to a family practitioner and so on. * (14 00) Health Care System Rural/Urban Differences Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I ask for the Minister of Health to acknowl edge the differences in opinions in terms of accessibil ity to health care and ask the minister: can the minister provide a measure of what the existing gaps between health care in Winnipeg and elsewhere in the province are? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, again, Madam Speaker, the whole objective is to continue to provide care to individual Manitobans where they need it when they need it. That is why there have been a number of changes across Manitoba.

That is why commumt1es like Morden, Winkler, Dauphin, Thompson are getting equipment like CT scans and so on. That is why we have done a number of changes to facili ties like the Thompson General Hospital and so on, for that very fundamental objective, to provide the services where and when the citizens all across Manitoba need them. Having said that, our two major tertiary hospitals are here in the city of Winnipeg, Health

May 17, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 55 Sciences Centre and St. Boniface General Hospital, and they certainly serve a number of citizens from right across our province. Farm Aid Program Available Funds Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, farmers are facing real challenges, not only with the weather but also because of the financial situation they are in. The funds from AIDA that were supposed to be coming will not be here till fall.

Last week the Minis ter of Agriculture talked about the emergency recovery program and the number of farmers who had applied and the fact that the program might have to be extended beyond the $25 million. Can I ask the Minis ter of Agriculture whether the program has been extended or whether there are still funds available in the program for farmers to apply for? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, my understanding is that there are still some funds available for farmers to apply. Ms.

Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate then why MACC staff at many of the offices have been told not to take further applications because they will not be processed? Does he understand that there is a real crisis here? We need more money. Are you going to extend that program so that those people who need the funds will get it? Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, if and when that program will be further expanded beyond the original $25 million as was announced, that will be a matter of policy decision that I will be pleased to make my farmers fully aware of. Ms.

Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate then why st aff at MACC are being told not to take further applications, indicating to farmers that there are not funds available for them at this time? Are there still funds available? Will the minister look into the situation and ensure that those farmers who need money will get money? Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, I believe I have answered that question. I was very pleased with the support of my government to announce a program of recovery under emergency situations. Farmers of Manitoba have availed themselves of that. There is a request in to extend that program.

When that decision is made, I will make further announcements. Emergency Medical Services Group Report Status Report Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, a week before last the Health minister missed an opportunity in this House to assure rural Manitobans that their ambulance services would not be eliminated or downgraded. The Association of Manitoba Municipalities has indicated that changes to emergency services should only be undertaken after extensive consultation occurs with communities and a province-wide model is finalized. Rural Manitobans want assurance from this minister.

Has he received an interim report from the Emergency Medical Services working group, as he said he was asked for a week ago? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): No, I have not, Madam Speaker. I certainly expect to receive that very shortly. As the member for Dauphin, I believe, is well aware, there is a working group that includes representation from the regional health authorities, along with the Association of Manitoba Municipalities. Rural Ambulance Services Reduction/Elimination Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Well, Madam Speaker, then in the meantime, will the minister undertake to freeze decisions to elimin ate or reduce rural ambulance services until this working group submits an interim or a final recommendation? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I have had the opportunity to meet with many of our regional health authorities, in fact all of our regional health authorities. They certainly recognize the importance of emergency medical services, and they are taking steps in all of the regions to ensure that they are maintained.

We also have an outstanding volunteer base in terms of providing emergency medical services across

1356 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 1999 our province, and again that is something that is extremely important to our government to maintain on a go-forward basis. Mr. Struthers: Everyone seems to understand the importance of rural ambulance services except this minister. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for Dauphin please pose his question now. Mr. Struthers: Why is this minister leaving rural Manitobans out to dry? Why will he not indicate to RHAs his disapproval of plans to change rural ambulance services until the working group reports to the minister? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, that whole question is a mystery. It is silly because, again, we are very supportive of our emergency medical services right across Manitoba. I hear from many of my colle agues in our caucus on that issue on a regular basis about the urgency of the report that is coming from the regional health authorities, along with the municipal organizations, about the importance of main taining the strong volunteer base within all of our communities, about the importance of that service and being sure that it is there for the people when they need it, where they need it.

We are very committed to a quality emergency medical service right across Manitoba, and I am anxiously awaiting the report from that review committee. Manitoba Housing Authority Vacancy Rate Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I have with me today a letter from the Minister of Housing asking me to direct all my inquiries to his department to his office and not ask his staff for information.

I have been waiting for the minister and his department to release to me information I had received from his department in 1997 specifically about vacancy rates, arrears to the Manitoba Housing Authority, schedules for budget maintenance and their budgets. I want to ask the Minis ter of Housing if he will provide this information to me prior to the Estimates and if he can tell the House today specifically what are the current vacancy rates and numbers of vacant units in Manitoba Housing Authority. Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, as to the exact numbers, I believe they fluctuate almost on a weekly basis, but 1 0 percent of our stock right now is approximately our vacancy rate at the present time. Possibly, while I am up, I could answer a question the member asked me last week in regard to 101 Marion Street in which she was asking me about the social crisis there.

I got a letter this morning actually from the residents there, and maybe I will just quote from it-that was written to me by the members at 101 Marion: however, what political- Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (14 10) Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: I think that the minister has answered the question. If he wants to table that letter, I believe that he can do that. If he wants to provide me with other information, he can do that. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Urban Aff airs and Housing, on the same point of order. Mr.

Reimer: On the same point of order, I had mentioned on one of the questions that was asked of me last week that I would get back to the member with the information. I have the information, and I was going to relay it to the member. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, it is quite common practice for the minister to take items as notice, but the appropriate thing would be to do it in a separate answer from what was in this case the first question raised by the member.

In fact, if the minister wishes to table it now, that is not any

May 17 , 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 57 difficulty, but I would suggest the answer would more appropriately come after the member has asked her questions and her supplementaries, and the minister can seek recognition at that point in time. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, to restrict a member, when he is on his feet, from providing an answer taken as notice, particularly when that answer may be very germane and appropriate to the series of questions being asked, is not appropriate.

That is what the member was doing. He should have the right to continue, and that should not interfere with the right of the member to continue with her series of supplemental questions. Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Radisson, the honourable minis ter had only consumed 30 seconds of his time, and I thought he was being expeditious in providing you with additional information. But the honourable minister could stand later on to nearer the end of Question Period to put the response to the question taken as notice. Seniors Housing Bachelor Unit Conversions Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I want to quote from a report for Manitoba Housing- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able member for Radisson was recognized for a supplementary question to which there should be no

preamble. Would the honourable member please pose her question now. Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, my question pertains to a Manitoba Housing Authority report which had a number of recommendations for seniors housing. On this report on page 23 it recommends- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader) : Madam Speaker, clearly the member is not using her opportunity to put her question. She is providing a

preamble, which is against the rules. She has been warned. Members opposite have asked for strict adherence to the rules. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader indeed does have a point of order. *** Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Radisson, please pose her question now. Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister, in ref erence to this report which recommends a plan for conversion of Manitoba Housing elderly persons bachelor units-it is from 199kan the minister tell us how many bachelor units have been converted by this government, and are they developing a plan? Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): As I was about to say earlier, I had a reply back from the tenants where they have mentioned to me: What political motivation did Ms. Cerilli have to suggest that there is a social crisis at 101 Marion? I can tell you, as a tenant of 101 Marion, I did not appreciate hearing and reading a transcript of Question Period where Ms. Cerilli misl eads the Legislature by indicating she met with the tenants of the association when in fact she only met with one tenant.

It is my view, had our newly elected executive been in place, a motion would certainly have been brought forth demanding apology from the NDP for this outrageous behaviour and the tarnishing of the ability of the tenants to handle their own affairs without political interference. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minis ter of Housing wishes to table that document. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Radisson, to pose a final supplementary question. Ms.

Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister: has he followed the recommendations in his own department's report on elderly persons

1358 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1999 housing which recommends they develop a plan for conversion of the vacant units to convales cent suites, to seniors, victims of abuse housing, to hostels or to student housing? Where is your plan- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, what we have been doing is looking at some of our buildings and our complexes where there is abundance of bachelor suites because we do realize that there is a fair amount of vacancies in that particular aspect of our housing.

So what we are looking at is, where it is feasible and there is a possibil ity of converting bachelor suites into one-bedroom units, we are looking at that and we have commenced that in quite a few units. One of the things that has to be taken into consi deration is the fact that we are dealing with bearing walls, we are dealing with buildings that possibly the architectural structure will not allow to do that, but those are some of the things that we are looking at.

I would also like to table a petition received from the tenants of 1 01 Marion Street which they have sent me just this morning: We, the undersigned tenants of I 0 I Marion, would like to convey to you-me--our appreciation and approval of the care and maintenance being provided through our caretakers, Mavis and Lome Remple, and support the work by the seniors resource worker, Lisa Sennicks. Highway Maintenance Federal Gas Tax Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Highways and Transportation.

For four years not one cent of federal gas taxes has been returned to this province for maintaining high ways. Did the minister get a comm itment from the federal Minister of Transportation last week to finally return some of the $I 40 million annually paid by Manitoba motorists in federal gas taxes? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Yes, Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Flin Flon for this particular question because he has flagged what we believe on this side to be the No. 1 issue facing the sustainability of our highway and transportation infrastructure.

The fact, as he correctly outlines, is last year $I47 million of gasoline taxes collec ted by the national govern ment in the province of Manitoba and not one penny, not one penny, returned to maintain our road infrastructure. I can tell him that provincial mm1sters continue to press the federal government for a national highways program in the short term, and certainly this minister continues to push for the long term sustainability.

We are hoping we will have some success, but support of members opposite and questions like this today certainly work toward making the public aware of the importance of this issue. * (1 420) Fundi ng-Tolls Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Does the minister support the federal proposal to pay for maintaining highways by bringing in toll highways to this province? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, the member for Flin Flon has, I think correctly, hit upon an issue that we suspect from comments that have come from some in federal circles that this might be an option that provinces might want to pursue. Some have.

But I can tell the member here that it is not the position of the Province of Manitoba to be charging tolls for Manitobans, and when Manitobans think about the fact that $I 4 7 million of their money paid through gas tax goes into federal coffers without a penny coming back, it is almost insulting to them to even have that kind of proposal made or floated by federal officials. National Highways Program Status Mr. Gerar d Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Did the federal minister propose any kind of timetable for dealing with the $I 7 bill ion needed to upgrade the national highway system?

May 17 , 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 59 Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, again, I thank the member for, I think, a very timely and important series of questions. The federal government today continues to talk with us and work toward some form of national highways program in next year's budget. Obviously, that kind of assistance is welcomed.

But, as he has correctly outlined, unless we get to long-term sustainable financial support for maintaining our highway system, a one-time contribution towards a national highways program, although welcome, is not going to maintain and support our highway system in the long run. We continue to push for it, and support of the member and members opposite is certainly most welcome. We hope that members of the Liberal Party take that message back to their federal cousins as well. Crown Lands Purchase/Leasing Policy Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, earlier in Question Period we raised yet another Cubby Barrett question. It seems that wherever you tum with this government, Mr. Barrett seems to pop up and including-! would like to table this. It is a picture from June of 1996 showing Mr. Cubby Barrett receiving his honorary life membership from the Premier, because sometimes you would almost think the Premier does not know Cubby Barrett.

I would like to ask the Premier: given the fact we have yet another serious question about, in this case, a land deal involving Cubby Barrett and his family directly, when will the Premier do what we have been asking for days in this House and call the audit that we need to get to the bottom of, once again, serious questions about unethical dealings between Mr. Barrett and this government headed by this Premier? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the members opposite are getting so bad now they even have to recycle their questions within a Question Period.

They not only have been recycling from several years ago and several months ago, but now they recycle from within the same Question Period with their answer. I will, as I said earlier, take the matter as notice and bring back information to the House. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS 1999 Budget Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Madam Speaker, "intell ectually inconsis tent." This comment made by the Leader of the official opposition last week in ref erence to his party's support during the budget vote says it all.

Our government's 1999 budget continues our plan for strengthening Manitoba's economic foundation in a sustainable manner, a strong foundation that ensures that the next century can be Manitoba's century. Through strategic tax cuts, increased spending on health care and education and balancing the budget for five consecutive years, our government has shown something sorely lacking in the members opposite, and that is ideas. Yet now, as the NDP prepare for an election some time this year, they vote for our budget. Such action is almost unheard of.

I would argue that their voting against the last 10 budgets while voting for this budget is intellectually inconsis tent, that their raising of 16 taxes and creation of five new taxes during the 1980s while last week voting for tax cuts is intellectually inconsis tent, that their voting against balanced budget legislation and taxpayer protection while the member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) said during his recent budget address, "Nobody wants to be burdened by debt" is intell ectually inconsis tent. West Lynn Heights School Peacekeepers Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): I rise today to congratulate the st aff, students and principal of West Lynn Heights elementary school in Lynn Lake. Three years ago, 16 older students formed the peacekeepers patrol to stop violence among students. Now some two dozen students monitor the schoolyard during recesses and watch for disputes. Principal Jim Clark notes that fights and serious disputes have greatly

1360 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1999 dropped in numbers over the past three years, thanks to the peacekeepers. The example of the volunteer work by the students themselves proves once again that, by working together, communities can do much to improve safety. This story is a good-news story that deserves wider knowledge. Lynn Lake is a community with a long history of community work. The peacekeeper patrol is just one more example of how the community pulls together at Lynn Lake.

I am sure that other communities and schools will soon adopt, if they have not already, the proactive, common-sense measures put in place in West Lynn Heights School. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Occupational Safety and Health Week Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to rise in the House and inform all honourable members that this week, May 17-23, has been proclaimed as North American Occupational Safety and Health Week. The theme of the week is Occupational Safety and Health: Partners Together in Safety.

The week is a co-operative effort between Canada, the United States and Mexico. The objectives of the North American Occupational Safety and Health Week are threefold: (1) to increase employees, employers and public awareness of the benefits of investing in occupational safety and health; (2) to raise awareness of the role and contribution of safety and health professionals; (3) to reduce workplace injuries and illness by encouraging new safety-and health-related activities. Canada will be focusing its campaign on young workers ages 15 through 29.

The Province of Manitoba, through the Department of Labour under the auspices of the Honourable Mike Radcliffe, is committed to and looks forward to working as a partner in reducing the number of workplace accidents and illnesses. Everyone has a role to play in achieving these objectives. The effectiveness of the safety and health activities is dependent upon the collective strength of the partners working to establish and maintain the workplace environment. The theme of the North American Occupational Safety and Health Week under scores the importance of partnerships in today's workplace.

By working together, we can achieve healthy working conditions, encouraging healthy employee activities and reduce financial costs of unsafe, unhealthy working environ ments. Transcona Collegiate Drama Production Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Last year my family and I had the opportunity to attend the Transcona Coll egiate drama production of Anne of Green Gables. We came away from that play extremely impressed with the high skill level of our young student actors, the professionalism of the entire production cast and crew and their ability to push and pull audiences' emotions.

On April 23 of this year, my family and I attended the Transcona Collegiate production of Grease and were thrilled at the way these young people immersed themselves in a 1950s era's music. It was very obvious by the choreography that they thoroughly enjoyed acting as much as the audience enjoyed watching. The play even included a vintage 1940 Plymouth convertible restored by a community parent. Some of these students were even rehearsing for another play starting just two weeks later. This past Friday, my family and I had the opportunity to attend the succes sful Transcona Coll egiate drama production of Dracula.

This exceptional performance was eight months in the making and involved many students, parents and teachers. The production made very effective use of actors with impeccable timing and skill, great makeup, costumes and sets, subdued lighting, a thick fog blanket and eerie music that would send shivers up your spine.

Madam Speaker, I have always been very proud of our young Transcona people and their enthusiasm for their school and their community, and what these three drama productions have clearly demonstrated is the very obvious respect and admiration these young performers have for their teachers and for each other. It is clear that the performing arts are an integral part of the Transcona Collegiate, their

May 17, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 61 curriculum, and allows each student the opportunity to learn more about themselves and their abilities through interaction with each other. Considering the high quality of the play, the acting and the stage production, the cost of the tickets is an unbeatable bargain. My congratulations to the producer/teacher, Gary Matwichuk, and to all of the actors, crew and families, who for eight months poured their hearts into making this production one to be remembered. I recommend this performance to everyone. Prix Heritage Awards Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St.

Norbert): On Tuesday night, my colleague the honourable Minis ter of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey) presented the 1999 Prix Heritage A wards to recognize outstanding contributions to Manitoba heritage. I am proud to stand in the House today and name this year's recipien ts so their names will be entered in the permanent record. The award for Distinguished Services Volunteer Award for Individuals was presented to Bill and Shirley Loewen, St. Norbert constituents , for their generosity and commitment to the preservation of our French and Metis history. Thanks to their effort, the St.

Norbert Orphanage seminary building and the Trappist Monastery guest house have beautifully been rehabilitated, and a Riel and Ritchot mural now graces the constituency as the gateway to Winnipeg. The Distinguished Service Volunteer A ward for Organizations was awarded to the Western Canada Aviation Museum volunteers for their dedicated work in developing this fine museum. These volunteers have contributed the equivalent of240 years of full-time work. Sharon Reilly of the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature was awarded the Distinguished Service Vocational A ward for her work as curator of history and technology.

Ms. Reilly has contributed to the cultural traditions of Manitobans of all social classes and back grounds. * (1 430) Le Centre du patrimoine, a project of La Societe historique de Saint-Boniface, received the Project A ward for building an archival facility in which to store important Francophone and Metis historical information. Finally, the Education and Communication Award was presented to Jean Oscar Guiboche for his promotion and preservation of the heritage ofthe aboriginal peoples, the voyageurs and Manitoba explorers. I commend the 1999 Prix A ward winners for their dedication to our province's history.

Through their efforts, a lasting legacy has been created which will enrich Manitoba for years to come. Thank you, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, if you could please call for second reading Bill 19, The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act, and following that, I will be putting the motion to go into Committee of the Whole to consider its work with respect to the Statue Law Amendment Tax bill. SECOND READINGS Bill 19-The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act Hon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bi11 19, The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act (Loi sur la Societe du credit agrico1e ), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, The Agricultural Credit Act incorporating MACC was passed first on November 7, 1958. At that time, MACC's mandate was to provide financial assistance to

1362 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 99 Manitoba farmers to establish, develop and operate their farms. The emphasis was on young, beginning farmers. The Agricultural Credit and Development Act replaced the original act on May 25, 19 68 . At that point the focus was on loan guarantees, and direct loans were no longer available from MACC. The agricultural act underwent a further change in 1969 and returned to direct lending. Today MACC remains focused on providing support for young beginning, lower equity and expanding farmers.

It also facilitates farmers' access to credit under reasonable terms and conditions through its guarantee programs. MACC is ready at all times to administer provincial emergency and special programs as well. Although MACC's mandate has remained essentially unchanged for 40 years, its programs and services have changed dramatically. MACC has experienced more program growth in the past five years than the previous 35 years. I take a small measure of satisfaction out of that fact, having been the minister responsible for MACC during these last five years.

These are but some of the programs that MACC is involved in: introducing the direct financing of nontraditional livestock, i.e., bison and soon to be elk; direct loans available to financing unbred heifers; increased level of financing available to smaller-scale, entry-level hog operators; increased direct loan limits that have been increased to $325,000 from their existing $250,000 for individuals and sole proprietorships and to $650,000 from the previous $500,000 for corporations, partnerships and co-operatives; increased net worth limitation for new borrowers to $500,000 from $400,000; increased financing limit for farm housing to $1 00,000 from the previous limit of $80,000; increased off-farm income limit to $70,000 from $60,000.

I say that this is important, although I say it with some regret because too many of our farmers require off-farm income to maintain their presence on their farm operations. We have introduced stocker loans to finance unbred heifers, nonlactating cows, feeder bison, equine growers; increased financing cap for bison breeding stock; introduced financing for the purchase of equity shares in agriculturally based new generation co-operatives as a further means of encouraging diversification and value added initiatives.

We have enhanced in 19 99- they reduced the interest rate for the first five years of a loan to 6.5 percent from a previous level of 9 percent. An additional $5 million loan fund was made available for this purpose. Our Diversification Loan Guarantee Program which was announced in the 19 95 election is a level of support that this govern ment directed specifically at the post-Crow-era expansion of value-added initiatives across Manitoba.

Ten million dollars in guarantees has leveraged over $40 million in direct private sector financing in Manitoba and of course significantly greater investments and resulting in multiplier benefits, introduced four eligibi lity requirements enhancements in 19 98, and provided an additional $20 million available in guarantees to generate an additional $80 milli on in private sector lending. This is where the corporation guarantees a certain portion, 25 percent of what is otherwise a private loan arranged by the proponents through their credit unions or through their banks.

We will continue to review different programs as they arrive, such as the potential of a bison feeder association with our growing number of bison farmers in the province. Other regulations will have to be amended from time to time as agriculture continues its changing. One of the things that I am proud about is that MACC has made its expertise available to other nonfarm programs when so directed by government.

Flood proofing, a loan assistance program, for instance, which was deemed to be necessary to provide some loan assistance to the residents of the Red River Valley during the disastrous '97 flood, has meant that the MACC corporation has extended over $20 million in loans to these persons within the Red River Valley, greatly helping and adding to the support that was there and provided by my col league the Minis ter of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), as well as the federal government in restoring the Red River Valley to its previous position.

The Manitoba Producers Recovery Program was introduced as an assist to producers during this current farm income crisis that farmers are experiencing, and I am pleased to report that the full $25 million that was announced back in

May 17 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 63 January when I introduced that program has been subscribed to. As questioned earlier today during Question Period, I will be seeking greater expansion of that loans authority so that we can continue in assisting Manitoba farmers in need in this parti cular area. MACC has been operating under

an act that has been essentially unchanged since the inception of the co operation in 19 58. The present regulations were established in 19 88. The face of agriculture in Manitoba and of rural Manitoba itself has changed dramatically, and in the last 20 years there have been significant changes that affect agricultural financing needs. Agricultural production units will continue to increase in size to take advantage of economies of scale and size. Between 19 76 and 19 96, average capital investment per farm increased by some 350 percent to an average of $41 8,000.

In the last 20 years, the number of acres per farm increased by some 13 0 percent. I want to make it very plain, this is not as a result of government policy or direction of this particular minister. It demon strates the fact that farming today continues to be high risk, capital intensive, and also, and I say this with some regret, that new entries into farming are finding other choices all too often more acceptable and more lucrative. That is what is driving the increasing size of our farms and, ergo, increasing needs for capital to manage those farms.

In order to assist agriculture in rural Manitoba as a whole, MACC needs to be able to respond quickly and proactively to changing needs and conditions. Agriculture continues to be, as I already indicated, a high-risk industry. Complicating factors include adverse climate, commodity price fluctuations, environmental issues and global economic conditions. Processing agricultural products at a local level has become a necessi ty for a viable agricultural industry and for rural Manitoba. A number of agricultural processing initiatives have begun or are being proposed throughout rural Manitoba.

MACC can be said to play the role of an economic tool impacting on the entire provincial economy. There are significant economic spin offs in terms of job creation and support of local businesses associated with projects established under the Diversification Loan Guarantee Program. * (1 440) MACC has played a significant role in provincial programs such as the Fl ood Proofing Loan Assis tance program. These programs assist Manitobans in recovering from special emergency situations. MACC's Guaranteed Loan Program makes agriculture financing an attractive option for private lenders.

This encourages financial institutions to maintain branches throughout rural Manitoba. A com prehensive rewrite is needed to streamline The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act and tidy up the results of amendments made on a piecemeal basis. That is what I am presenting to this House: in effect, a newly rewritten Agricu ltural Credit Corporation Act. Modernized wording is needed to dispense with outmoded

definitions and concepts and recognize present-day realities. MACC's operations have a heavy regulatory base. Currently, MACC experiences obstacles and inefficiencies in program developments due to demand of the regulatory process. A reworking of the act is needed for MACC to respond quickly to programming demands. Amendments to the act are needed to enhance MACC's ability to provide or facilitate credit for a broader base of value-added diversification activity and emerging business structures. Agricultu ral enterprises has been added to the

Definitions section. This flexible definition relates to farming and value-added activities with regulatory power to designate additional kinds of agricultural enterprise. It reflects the reality of what is happening in rural Manitoba. The involvement of primary producers with value added perhaps nonprimary producers is occurring out there, and the act to date, as it has been written in the past, has not been able to accommodate that. The Objects

section is broadened to cover direct and indirect benefits to farmers and agricultural enterprises. MACC will have the capacity to consider a broader base of value added diversification initiatives.

13 64 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 99 The proposed

section referring to regulations refines the existing regulation making power. This

section covers all matters for which regulations may be made. As regulation power is more permissive than the obligatory, MACC will have greater flexibility as it develops its regulations. As a lender and a guarantor, MACC must be responsive to the changing needs for financing in agriculture and agricultural production and processing as Manitoba moves into the 21s t Century. Although MACC's mandate has remained relatively unchanged over the years, its programs and services have changed significantly. MACC has experienced more program development in the last five ye� s than in its entire previous history.

Implementmg the necessary program changes has been the challenge, due to the outmoded condition of the governing legislation. Manitoba's provincial framework emphasizes development of a dynamic economy, an improved quality of life and fiscal management. The driving forces for MACC are this framework and its client-focused mandate. In order to successfully achieve its goals, MACC must be able to change and change quickly. A comprehensive rewrite of the existi�g Agricultural Credit Corpora tion Act will streamline the legisla tion and enable MACC to respond quickly to changing needs in the agricultural finances.

Madam Speaker, I recommend the bill before the Chamber to all members and for scrutiny at committee and, hopefully, for its speedy passage. Thank you. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Hon. Da rren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Fi nance (Mr.

Gille shammer), that this House now resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole for the consideration of Bill 22, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 99 (Loi de 19 99 modifiant diverses dispositions legisla tives en matiere de fiscalite). Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Bill 22- The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1999 Mr. Cha irperson (Marcel Laurendea u): The committee will come to order, and the staff can enter the Chamber at this time. The Committee of the Whole will come to order, please.

The committee has before it for its consideration Bill 22, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 99. We will be dealing with clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. When the Committee of the Whole last met, it was considering Clause 5 ofBill 22. Clause 5- pass; Clause 6(1 )- pass; Clause 6(2)-pass; Cla use 7-pass; Cla use 8- pass. Shall Clause 9 through to 13 be passed? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Chairperson: No? An Honourable Member: amendment on 10 . We have an Mr. Chairperson: Okay, Cla use 9( 1) and 9(2) pass. Clause 10. Hon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): We have an amendment, as I had indicated in my speaking notes, THAT the proposed subsection 11 .6(1) of The Income Tax Act as set out in

section 10 of the bill be amended (

a) in clause (

h) of the definition "el igible share", by striking out "and before that time"; and (

b) in clause (i) 1 of the definition "el igible share", by striking out "$ 1 0,000,000." and substituting "$5,000,000." Motion presented.

May 17 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 65 * (1 450) Mr. Gilleshammer: I would like to explain this. The purpose of clause (

h) is to ensure the total number of eligible shares issued in a given year does not exceed $20 mil lion, limi ting the tax cost associated with credit. Clause (

h) limits eligible corporations to issuers that applied first to the minister for approval until the $20 million in issued share limit is reached. The removal of the phrase "and before that time" cla rifies that the $20-million limit applies to each year of the program and not cumulatively. Secondly, Clause 1 of the definition of "eli gible share," which lim its the maximum annual amount of eligible shares issued and outstanding by eligible corporation at any time, is reduced from $10 mil lion to $5 mi llion.

This change is made in accordance with represen tations by industry stakeholders who were concerned that the higher cap would limit the benefits of the credit to too few businesses. Mr. Chairperson: Shall the amendment pass? Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Just a question or two, Mr. Chairperson. Would the minister be able to tell the committee roughly the number of Manitoba-based companies that would be potentially eligible?

I realize that there are steps that companies would have to go through to actually become eligible, but what is the pool of eligibility, and what is the estimated cost of this tax credit on an annual basis to the Treasury? Mr. Gilleshammer: It is estimated that there may be a couple of thousand companies that would be part of that pool and the cost to the Treasury, over three years , between $7.5 million to $9 million. Mr. Sale: The majority of those companies would not now be listed with the Winnipeg Stock Exchange. Is that correct? Mr. Gillesh ammer: That is correct. Mr.

Sale: Of the currently listed companies, what would be the pool that would be eligible? The reason I asked that question is that the process of going to an IPO and going through all the securities regulations to register has to be worth the company's while in terms of the public market. I understand the purpose of this tax credit basically is to encourage that. Never theless, it is not a trivial matter to take a company public and to list on a small exchange like WSE. So of those currently on the exchange, what number of companies might be eligible for this tax credit? Mr.

Gillesh ammer: We do not have a number with us, but I can get that information for the member. Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that. Perhaps during his department's Estimates, we will be able to explore that. I want to say that we are in support of this proposal. The reason, of course, is that we have met with various venture capital organizations. In particular, the Crocus Fund management and staff brought this suggestion to our attention. It fills a niche, a gap that currently is dif ficult for many companies. I think the credit is appro priately scaled.

It basically is something that we have already agreed would be a good idea. I know it is part of our platform. So it is a useful proposal that the government is bringing for ward. Mr. Chairperson: Shall the amendment- Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): We are still on clauses that affect

Part 2 of The Income Tax Act. In the budget document the minister shows the small business rate reduction corporate income tax costing the Treasury $24 mill ion in a full year and also the Manufacturing Investment Tax Credit extension costing about $13 million. I wonder if the minister can tell us whether there have been any estima tes made of the impact these rate reductions will have or tax credit extensions will have on the activity in these sectors. There is a reference, of course, in the budget to the Film and Video Production Tax Credit extension, which is going to cost $5 millio n in a full year.

I think many of us, through the media, are aware of the very positive impact assisting the film production industry, video production industry, has in this province which we welcome and support.

1366 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 99 My question is-we do not hear much about the impact of these types of rate reductions. We talked on both sides of assisting small business development through the tax system and hear some specific proposals, so my question is, and I am just repeating: To what extent do these particular credits or rate reductions stimulate the small business or the manufacturing sectors? Mr. Cha irperson: Okay. Before the minister answers that question, what were you referring to on that question? Did you say that was within this amendment? Mr. L. Evans: Well, we are under

Part 2, as I understand it. Mr. Chairperson: We are under Clause 10 at this time. Mr. L. Evans: But that is still under

Part 2.

Part 2 includes several clauses from Clause 4 right through to whatever it is. Mr. Chairperson: That is a clause in

Part 2. Mr. L. Evans: It is a clause in

Part 2. I do not know specifically which clause it is. Mr. Chair person: Which clause are you referring to in 2? You are talking about 6.(1) , which has already passed. Mr. L. Evans: It is difficult to read this. Mr. Chairperson: The video tax credit, you referred to in your question. Mr. L. Evans: I was making reference to the small business rate reduction which is included in the budget as a cost of $24 million. That is the small business rate reduction. Mr. Chair person: Which are Clauses 6 and 7, are they not? Okay.

In that case, could we just pass the amendment at this time, and then I will see if there is leave to go back to Clause 6. Mr. L. Evans: Is it in Clause 6? Mr. Chair person: I believe it is in Clause 6. Mr. L. Evans: I thought we were dealing with the whole of

Part 2. Mr. Chair person: Amendment-pa ss. Is there leave for the honourable member to ask a number of questions not relating to the clause we are in at this time and referring back? [agreed] The honourable minister, to respond. Mr. Gilleshammer: If I understand the question, the member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) wants to know what impact lowering the small business rate is going to have. This is the income earned by smaller companies who have $200,000 or less active income, and we see this as encouraging new investment by these com panies and creating some jobs in small businesses.

It will improve the tax competitive ness of these firms. I am told that this will relate to approximately 8,600 firms that operate now in Manitoba.

I am not sure that we have exact projections here on exactly how this lowering of this rate and making them more competitive is going to be transferred into a specific number of jobs or a specific number of expansions, but we note that members opposite have spoken in favour of this and we will have to see the results. * (1 500) Similarly, with the Film and Video Tax Credit, we knew that it was going to stimulate movie production and create jobs here in Manitoba, but to see the dramatic change from about $1 million to $50 milli on, I think, was beyond everybody's expectation.

So these tax credits do stimula te job creation, and we believe in this particular sector with these 8,000 or 9,000 firms we are going to see additional jobs created, additional activity. It reduces revenue to government of just over $5 million in 19 99-2000, and as the member indicated, upwards of $24 million when it is fully imple mented. Mr. L. Evans: I wonder if the minister could indicate, has he received representation from any specific group requesting this type of rate reduction, for instance, the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce or some such organization? Mr.

Gilleshammer: This was something that came up during the budget consultations that were supported by the Manitoba and the Winnipeg Chambers. I spoke with them after

May 17 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 67 the budget, and they felt that this was a very positive move. Certainly, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business made representation on this matter as well as individuals during the budget consultation process. Mr. L Evans: With respect to the Manufacturing Investment Tax Credit extension, it is an extension, and yet the budget document shows no expenditure of that in this year 19 99- 2000,

whereas it is estimated to be $13 million for a full year. That would be the following year, I presume. I do not quite understand why there would be no estimate of expenditures for '99-2000. Is that because it does not take effect until the following year? Mr. Gilleshammer: The current program runs until the end of fiscal year 2000. The extension takes place beyond that. Mr. L. Evans: I would just make the comment that obviously business welcomes these credits and rate reductions, but I would suggest that it is very difficult to estimate with some precision what the impact is going to be.

It may be taking you in a direction that you want to go, I agree with that, hopefully, for an expansion and so on. But, with regard to the Manufacturing Investment, you have figures in your own budget document showing a reduction of manufacturing investment- this is on page 15 of your economy

section of the budget, where '98 has fallen from the '97 level. Then, again, there is a projection of'99 being quite a bit lower than '98. So I suppose you could make an argument: Well, it is time to have this sort of a tax credit extension to sort of help boost the level of investment spending, but I would submit that probably what affects the level of manufacturing investment in this province, or any jurisdiction, is the demand for the output of that sector.

If there is an increasing demand for the goods provided by manufacturers in Manitoba, then there is the inclination to want to expand your plant, your capacity, so that you can meet the increased demand. I submit that is probably one of the most critical factors in determining the level of investment, much more so than tax credits, as welcome as they may be as incentives and so on, and there may be marginal cases where this has an impact.

I would submit that we can provide these dollars of assistance, $13 million, but I do not know to what extent it will impact on the level of investment spending in the province to any significant extent at any rate. I just wanted to make that position that the most critical factor determining level of manufacturing investment spending is the demand for the output of that sector. Mr. Cha irperson: Clause 10 as amended-pa ss; Clause 11 -1 3-pass; Clauses 13, 14 -pas s. Mr. L. Evans: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask a question about The Mining Tax Act, which are 12 and 13. Mr. Chair person: Oh, I am sorry. Mr. L.

Evans: Mr. Chairman, again this tax rate reduction looks to be rather minor. At least its impact on the budget is minor. It is no dollars for this year, but $1 million for the subsequent years, so I again ask the minister: what does he expect to happen as an outcome of this particular rate reduction? Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Chairman, certainly the prices in the mining sector have fallen over the last number of years . I think it is impor tant to indicate our support for both the development and exploration in this area.

As the member knows, this tends to be somewhat cyclical and that the prices will come back. We, I think, send a signal to the mining community that they are a valued part of our economy and that they will continue to invest and employ people in this industry in Manitoba. Mr. L. Evans: Again, I think the minister would likely agree with me, as welcome as this is, it is a very minor reduction. No dollars this year, a million dollars next year would be welcomed by the industry but, again, the fate of that industry is in the hands of world markets, assuming of course that we have the raw material here.

It is in the hands of the international market for nickel or copper or zinc or whatever the mineral may be. Indeed I agree

1368 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 1999 with the minister, it is subject to a lot of fluctuations, as commodity prices tend to be. They tend to be very volatile. We have our ups and downs. Our mining industry is cer tainly not sheltered from this volatility. It impacts very directly on us. We see it, for instance, in the level of employment in Thompson, just to use one example. So, at any rate, we do not oppose this, Mr. Chairman, we are just commenting on it, that it looks rather modest, but so be it. I assume the Mining Association is happy with it. Mr. Chair person: Clauses 13 and 14-pass.

Clause 15 (1) Mr. L. Evans: You are slipping past very quickly here. I just wanted to ask the question, under this section, The Motive Fuel Tax Act, reference to exemption for fuels sold to international ocean-going ships. I wonder if the minister could elaborate that. Again there is no money shown for this, so I gather, I just do not know why is it here if we do not expect any financial implic ations. * (15 10) Mr.

Newman: Currently international vessels do their fuelling in other areas where they do get an exemption, so this is not a question of lost revenue for us, but it is an opportunity for those in this business in Churchill to work towards expanding their business and providing fuel on a level playing field with other jurisdictions. I think all governments over the years have tried to find ways to make the Port of Churchill more modern and more viable.

This is just another step in hopefully allowing entrepreneurs in Churchill to go after some new business and to be on the same level playing field as Montreal or wherever these ocean-going vessels are refuelling. Mr. L. Evans: I am certainly not opposing this whatsoever. I gather then it tends to be perhaps more symbolic than anything else at this point. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, it is symbolic for sure. I know it met with the enthusiastic approval of mayor of Churchi ll.

You know, I think anything that we can do to make Churchill more viable-we have seen positive signs in recent years, and this can just be another piece of the puzzle. Mr. L. Evans: Just by way of a commentary, a bit of history, I would agree that governments for some years, at least since I have been here, of all persuasions have done whatever they could to stimulate opportunities for Churchi ll. I recall we were successful in getting the Hudson Bay resupply through Churchill using a tug and barge operation in the early '70s.

Prior to that time, the supply to the outports on the Hudson Bay was from the Port of Montreal, and we were successful in persuading the feder al government to transfer that activity, as it did, to Churchill. Of course, it had a benefit on Winnipeg as well. Then, of course, there have been other things that governments have tried to do, including encouraging the use of the port for other commodities beside grai ns. I think at one point, we had our Liquor Commission bring in a load of Scotch whiskey from Scotland through the Port of Churchill. This was way back, as I recal l.

I do not know how much whiskey is going through there now, but there were attempts made- An Honourable Member: They were symbolic too. Mr. L. Evans: Yes, mostly, apart from one shipment. Also, another commodity that was looked at was sulphur. I recall visiting there, once again in the '70s, there was this huge mountain of yellow material, and it was sulphur that was to be shipped out. This was from a by-product of our oil industry in Alber ta and Saskatchewan; it was to be shipped through the port for Saskatchewan. I might comment, Mr.

Chairman, when we are on the subject of other provinces and the Port of Churchi ll, the other provinces-and I hope this is still true-o f Saskatchewan and Alberta were very supportive of helping to enhance the Port of Churchi ll in Manitoba. I know for various reasons, we recall getting support from Premier Lougheed to Premier Blakeney in years gone by.

May 17 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 69 I hope that support still is there, supporting Manitoba in its continued efforts to develop Churchill. It is just a historical commentary. Mr. Chairperson: Clause 15 (1 }- pass; Clause 15 (2}- pass; Clause 15 (3}-pass; Cla use 16 -pas s. Clause 17 . Mr. L. Evans: Mr. Chairman, did we pass by the

section in which we are talking about children's clothing exemption increase? An Honourable Member: The children's clothing is 18 . Mr. Chair person: Clause 17 -pa ss. Clause 18 . Mr. L. Evans: Again, I wonder if the minister could elaborate on the impact of this particular exemption increase. Was this an outcome of the budget consultations specifically? I know many, many items are covered by retail sales taxes and I am just wondering why this particular item.

Again, we are certainly not opposing it; we would support it, but I am just wondering why this particular item of all the hundreds and thousands of items covered by retail sales taxes. Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, this was brought forward in discussions that were held in some of the communities, and the member and I are past that stage where we are raising child ren of this age and buying children's clothing, but- An Honourable Member: Grandkids. Mr. Gillesh ammer: There are grandchildren, too, right, but this is to give some relief to parents and grandparents, I suppose, who are making these expenditures. Mr.

Chairperson: Clause 18 (1}- pass; Clause 18 (2}- pass; Clause 19 (1 }- pass; Clause 19 (2} pass; Clause 19 (3 }- pass; Clause 20( 1 }-pa ss; Clause 20(2}-pass; Clause 21(1 }-pass; Clause 21 (2}-pas s; Cla use 21( 3}-p ass; Clause 21( 4} pass; Clause 21 (5}-pas s; Clause 21 (6}- pass; Clause 21 (7}- pass; Clause 21 (8}-p ass;

preamble-pa ss; table of contents-pass; title pass. Bill as amended be reported. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION Committee Report Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has considered Bill 22, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 99 (Loi de 19 99 modifiant diverses dispositions legis latives en matiere de fiscalite), and reports the same, with amendments. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

REPORT STAGE BILL 22-The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1999 Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I move (by leave), seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 22, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 99 (Loi de 19 99 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives en matiere de fiscalite), as amended and reported from the Committee of the Whole, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would ask that you could call for third reading of Bill 22, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 99. * (1 520) THIRD READINGS Bill 22- The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1999 Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move (by leave), seconded by the honourable Minister of Agricu lture (Mr. Enos), that Bill 22, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 99; Loi de 19 99 modifiant diverses dispositions legis latives en matiere de fiscalite, be now read a third time and passed. Motion presented.

1370 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 99 Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I would like to just add a few words to the record on this debate of this impor tant bill that puts into effect or legalizes the tax changes referred to in the budget brought in recently by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gil leshammer). As is on record, we have supported the budget, the official opposition, for various reasons, but this does not mean, of course, Madam Speaker, that we agree with everything, every last line, every last figure in the budget-far from it.

There are a lot of things that we are very concerned about in the budget; in fact, probably, mostly, because of what was left out of the budget rather than some of the changes in it. [interjection] Well, as I said, Madam Speaker, there are many things we agreed with, but that does not mean we agree with every last paragraph, every last number. The one problem we have with the budget is the lack of action on property taxes. We believe that the people of this province are suffering unduly because of very heavy property taxes.

The reason they are suffering from heavy property taxes is because of the inability of this government or the lack of action of this government to take on more responsibil ity for the cost of education in this province. This is well documented as to the amount of additional dollars that are being collected by school divisions because of the lack of support by the government. The amount of school division tax collected in 19 88, for example, in Manitoba was $208 million, and by the year 19 98, this had risen to $377 million.

Well, Madam Speaker, that is an enormous increase in the amount of taxes having to be levied at the local level because of the cuts that have been put into place by this government. Our estimate is that this government has cut over $482 per pupil in purchasing power from our public schools. Since '93, '94, however, provincial revenues have increased by over $1 billion. This impact can be seen, Madam Speaker, in looking at the individual cities and towns in this province of ours. The average home in the city of Winnipeg has seen an increase of over 55 percent in school division taxes since 19 90.

In Br andon, the Brandon School Division taxes jumped by 14 percent in 19 98 and then again 9 percent this year. In Neepawa, the Beautiful Plains School Division, the people of Neepawa saw an 8 percent increase this year on top of 11 percent in 19 98. Another example is Thompson, where the residents saw their bill increase 10 percent in 19 98, followed by a 4 percent hike in 19 99. So, Madam Speaker, we believe that this is one area that this government has failed to address and should be addressing in a way that is going to provide positive support for our public school system.

What we have seen because of the lack of adequate support by the government is a deterioration in terms of increasing class sizes. We have seen it in terms of lack of basic supplies. I spoke to one teacher who said we simply do not have enough money to buy the textbooks that we are required to purchase for whatever course. So we have some money; we can buy some textbooks one year; we have to wait for another year to buy the remaining supply of those textbooks.

There is a long list of examples that one could provide showing the deterioration of the public school system because of the schools being insufficiently supported by this government over the years that it has been in office. You can see also the impact of heavy proper ty taxes in urban sprawl in the city of Winnipeg. One of the reasons why we have urban sprawl could be because of the heavy property tax burden as it is levied throughout the city and other communities. The Winnipeg Free Press has written on this subject.

There is other material on it showing this phenomenon, which really costs all of us as a society. There is no question, Madam Speaker, as well, that the lowering of property taxes is far more equitable than attempting to lower income taxes. Income tax is built on a progressive system, but when you reduce it by a certain number of points it is the wealthier people who obviously get more benefit from that than the people on the lower end of the scale,

whereas, if you reduce property taxes, we suggest one way

May 17 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1371 of doing it is by reinstituting the property tax credit that was elimin ated by this government back in 19 93 . You would have the reverse effect. You would have a very equitable effect. You would be helping people basically on the lower end of the income scale. Of course, it depends on how you implement it, but it could be imple mented in a way that the lower end of the income scale would be assisted more than the higher end of the income scale.

I might note again in passing that the reduction of the property tax credit from $325 to $250 in 19 93, that is, that $75 elim ination, was equivalent to two and a half points of income tax. In ef fect, by doing that in 19 93, this government raised income tax by two and a half points. It was amounting to $53 million at that time. Of course, we know other things were done at that time such as broadening the sales tax, which was equivalent to increasing income tax by two points. Other measures were taken, such as the elim ination or reduction of the Pensioners' School Tax Assistance Program for certain seniors.

However, what I am suggesting is that we would like to see obviously the property tax credits reinstated, thus our amendment and, as our Leader has explained, the advantages to the people of Manitoba of doing so. I just want to make this point before closing. That is, not only is a property tax credit more equitable than an income tax cut, but it also has a greater economic impact.

It is well demon strated in economic principles that if you provide additional funds to people on the lower end of the income scale compared with those at the higher end of the income scale, you will have a greater impact on spending because, to use a technical term, the marg inal propensity to consume is much, much higher with lower income groups than with higher income groups. For every additional dollar you put in the hands of someone at the low end of the income scale, you would be assured that they will spend if not all of it, most of it,

whereas if you give that additional dollar to those people at the higher end of the scale, a greater percentage of it is likely to be saved. So there are all kinds of good reasons why property tax credits should have been reinstated, the impact on property taxpayers across the province, bringing about a more equitable tax situation and certainly affecting urban sprawl in the city of Winnipeg and perhaps the city of Brandon. Certainly it has an economic impact as well. * (1 530) I just point out in closing that the people in this province do feel burdened by taxes by this government.

The fact is that, and I mentioned this the other day in debate, I can understand that, because the people of this province collectively are paying much more in income tax now than they did a few years ago. That can be explained in large measure by bracket creep. So, even though the rates have not changed, the bracket creep phenomenon has been at work. We can read off these figures- I will not bother but I could tell you it is millions of dollars. At any rate, Madam Speaker, with those few words, we will sit down and let others speak and participate in this debate. Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I thank the member for Brandon East. We, of course, passed and voted for the tax bill last session of the Legisla ture. We are disappointed that the government has rejected our proposal, our alternative, for property tax credits. They could argue with the rules prohibiting such a proposed amendment from an opposition member, a nonminister.

But, on one score, certainly the fact that it was revenue neutral to the government's own proposal would have allowed the consistency of the budget in terms of revenue declines and the substance of property tax credits. If they were so inclined to look at the merit of our argument, they could have moved the amendment themselves. They had moved other amendments themselves in this tax bill, and they could have moved the amendment themselves as a minister which would not affect the overall revenues, expenditure items in the budget. Our amendment was very consistent with the revenue items in the budget.

If their concerns were, if they would argue that the minister should be the only one to move the amendment, then I challenge the minister to move that amendment. If they do not want to

1372 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 99 choose to go with that amendment, then they are saying they are doing so on the basis of merit. We believe, for example that for seniors-let us look at the issue of seniors. Many seniors are living on fixed incomes, living on pensions. They have also struggled for years to own a home. When the government in the highest deficit year decided to raise taxes through a reduction in property tax credits, they did so in two ways, or three ways really, but I will not technical on the progressivity issue.

They also lowered the property tax credit for seniors by $75 and for everybody else by another $75 . Now, seniors on a low income will not get the same benefit as a property tax reinstatement of a straight $75 for a homeowner that we have proposed. So, how do you have balance between the income tax reductions and property taxes? Well, our way of suggesting the amend ment that the government could themselves move and would therefore be in order, would have achieved that. It also does something for people on lower incomes in the inner city of Brandon, the inner city of Thompson, or the inner city of Winnipeg.

So let not this government say no to this. They can move it today right now in committee. This minister can move it, and we will accept it. I challenge the minister to move it. It will not affect the revenue decrease in the income tax cut for January, the year 2000. I dare say for many MLAs across the way that have a lot of seniors, like the member for Rossmere (Mr. Toews), this would have a balance in the constituency of Rossmere, in the community of Rossmere between income tax cuts and a break for seniors. Madam Speaker, I have made these points before at second reading. I know the member for Brandon East (Mr.

L. Evans) has also made these points. I just wanted to reiter ate that the minister himself could move this. We have supported the idea of the small business tax reduction. It was in our alternative budget last year. We have suggested, like the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, that there be an offset on some of the corporate grants, some of the Shamray grants. I would have liked the government to follow through on the recommendations of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

If the government is comm itted really to listening to the public on the fair tax commission or Lower Tax Commission, I would challenge them, I would challenge this government to look at the issue of an income tax decline for the year 2000 and a property tax credit decline as part of that tax commission. What a fairer way to go. Let us let the people also be involved in this issue because every time you make a reduction, you also lose revenue, and losing revenue obviously has an impact on future budgetary decisions. Madam Speaker, we agree with the overall thrust of the tax reductions.

We agree with the thrust of the revenue sustainabil ity, but we would have made a different decision on the second one and a half, a decision that we regret the government has not accepted on its merit. If it belie ves in the substance of it, it could move it itself. It has moved other amendments. If it does not, so be it. It has the option today. But we are comm itted to the alternatives we put forward within the revenue declines in this bill. We will be voting for this bill, but we would have a different way of balancing the tax reductions than the member s opposite. Thank you.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minis ter of Finance, to close debate. Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): I apprecia te the support of the House for this tax bill.

We truly did consult with Manitobans in bringing forth the budget, and, certainly, in the consultations that took place, Manitobans indicated very clearly what their spending priorities were and also where they felt we could be more competitive on the taxation side. am pleased that we were able to incorporate the ideas we heard through that consultation process into this budget and that the budget has received near unanimous support in the House. I am pleased to hear the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) say that they will also support Bill 22. Thank you very much.

Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is third

May 17 , 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 13 73 reading, Bill 22, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 99. Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. Hon. David Newman (Deputy Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, may we now have leave that the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, moving and seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Gill eshammer). Motion agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When we last sat it had been considering item 16. 1 Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, on page 46 of the main Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Mr. Chair person, the first thing that jumps out at a person when they look at the numbers underneath the

section on the Manitoba School for the Deaf is some increases which on the surface seems like a pretty decent thing for this minister to be doing. I do not mind giving the minister credit when there is something good. So maybe he can explain to me the increases I see in the two lines under Managerial and Professional/Technical. I would be interested knowing especially on the Technical side what those increases translate into, what positions may have been created, or is that just due to the normal increases found within the Department of Education? An Honourable Member: What page did you say you were on? Mr.

Struthers: I am on page 47, School Programs. Maybe I better make sure I am on the right page and line. Nowhere near? An Honourable Member: Yes, you are in the right area. * (1 600) Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Chairman, for today I am not uncomfortable if the honourable member wants to start us off wherever, if we are able to deal with it. If we are not, then we can take notice and give the answer at a later time. But I think we are able to discuss this matter with the honourable member right now. Mr. Chairperson: I think we have gone ahead, so we would need leave.

Is there leave for the committee to proceed ahead and revert when the time comes? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I would grant leave if the honourable member would. If I do not have the appropriate material or staff present, I will tell the honourable member and we will make note of that question. But the one that he has asked is about the School for the Deaf. There is an additional sum here for Professional/Technical staff, and that is to hire interpreters and medical services for deaf and hard- of-hearing students.

There is an increase of $42,000 for nursing services to one of our students, to a technology dependent student. There are going to be two new students at the Manitoba School for the Deaf in 19 99- 2000, and they require exceptional support. The budget, which the honourable member was pleased to support, supports those students. Mr. Struthers: I thank the minister for jumping ahead of the line that we were to be on, but I was very interested to hear about the increases at the School for the Deaf. The other increase that is there is on the managerial side.

Is that just a normal increase one year to the next, or have there been managers added, more adminis tration? Mr. McCrae: The difference in that appro priation from $1 24,000 to $1 30,500 is accounted

1374 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 99 for by the result of collective bargaining which gave back the so-called Filmon Fridays and a 2 percent increase-th is is for wa ges. So that is strictly-I would call it routine because it is happening in a lot of places throughout govern ment. Mr. Struthers: Could I assume then that the next two lines, and this would answer some questions very quickly, the same answer would apply to Administrative Support and Employee Benefits, the normal costs of increases one year to the next through collective bargaining? Mr. McCrae: Yes. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Chairman, if we could go back to the line we were on, a very broad line dealing with Executive Support, 16 .1 (b), which I do not think is passed yet. Mr. Chair person: Okay. Ms. Friesen: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. wanted to clarify with the minister a couple of points that had arisen earlier.

I wondered if the minister had actually tabled the list of presenters because I did check with other people who had received the special needs review and apparently the appendix that the minister assumed was there ofthe list of presenters was not there, so it is not, as we were assuming at the last session, a part of the original public document. So I wonder if the minister could table the whole thing. Mr. McCrae: Yes, I can, Mr. Chairperson. We had undertaken to table the appendices from the Special Education Review, and that is what I am doing now. Ms.

Friesen: Just while I am looking at that, I wonder if the minister could clarify something else that arose in an earlier discussion and which did not seem to be the understanding of some of the people in the field that I talked to. I raised the issue of ADAPs and the letter from the deputy minister, I think it was in April, '98, indicating that school divisions need no longer send their ADAP reports in to the department. We went back and forth a little on this, and the minister said that indeed school divisions are expected to send their ADAPs in to the department.

I wondered if there had been anything from the department which rescinded that April '98 letter, and what is the actual situation? What is it that schools are expected to do now, or divisions, I should say? Mr. McCrae: The letter that I provided to the honourable member written by the deputy minister ought to be reviewed by both of us, probably. If there is any misunderstanding, it is regrettable, but I think the letter says what the letter says. The ADAPs are expected to exist. The intent of the administration change was that they would be phased out when divisions will have completed their first program review.

So I think you just maybe need to review the letter again and that might give you the-actu ally, is it a letter written by myself, or by the deputy? * (1610 ) Ms. Friesen : The minister needs to clarify which letter we are talking about. Just to summarize, what I was saying was that in April '98, and I think it is on the website, a long directive from the Minister of Education, I believe signed by the deputy minister, indicates that ADAPs are no longer required to be submitted by school divisions.

This came as some surprise to school divisions because it was in advance of the report of the special needs review, and that was why I was asking the question. In response, the minister said, no, they must report them. Now, I do not remember the minister tabling any letter that indicated that, as you are just talking about now, so I think we need to clarify which letter, what dates and what is the present position, and has that April '98 directive been rescinded? Mr. McCrae: The present position is that the ADAPs do not have to be filed with the department.

It is expected that they would exist, and that if there are changes to those ADAPs, then the department is supposed to be notified of those changes. Does that clear it up? Ms. Friesen: Yes, it does. The issue is changes to the ADAPs that must be submitted to the department. Could the minister tell me what form those changes must be submitted in, and what does the minister define as a change? For example, would it be the number of students with special needs? Would it be a change in the

May 17 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 75 composition of the committee of the division which has been put together in fact to deal with the ADAPs? What level of changes? Is it policy? Is it numbers? Is it money? Is it process? Many levels at which changes can take place, and what is the department's expectations on that? Mr. McCrae: Department personnel are very much in touch with special education personnel in the various school divisions on an ongoing basis. It is not a question that there is any confusion really.

I think maybe I am confused, and maybe the honourable member is asking a lot of questions because the previous answers perhaps were not quite as clear as they could have been. But when we are talking about changes to these ADAPs, I think that it is right for the department to have some kind of record of a change in programs or services in a given division, not numbers of students. Those things fluctuate, and everybody knows that.

But, if there is a change in direction or policy or in the types of structures, things like advisory committees or community organi zations that divisions work with, the department wants to know about that and have some kind of record of it. But the point is maybe, as I sit at this table away from the field, there may be a little more lack of clarity than there is out there in the field because these people are practitioners and the department is engaged in an ongoing process and dialogue with them.

So I think that, in terms of any filings or information sharing, it is in areas like progra ms, services, policy, or types of structures and not so much the one thing the member referred to, that being the number of students. I am advised that all ADAPs include the information respecting the planning process, a division's statement of policy and philosophies, a needs survey. I suppose, subject to correction-! mean if there is a major change in the demographic make-up of a community, then perhaps it would be good for the department to be made aware of that.

But ADAPs include information about the comprehensive service delivery system, outlines of divisional program s, community agencies and services collaborating with the school division and professional development activities. The ADAP is a public document and provides meaningful information. The process of reviewing and updating encourages divisions to utilize best practices for the benefit of all students. As I said, Mr. Chairman, staff communicates regularly with student services administrators during the year as well as around the funding review process.

Staff meet one on one and also with the executive of the student services administrators group. It sounds to me, from what I am learning about the operation of special education in Manitoba, that there is a very open and very inclusive process in place year in and year out. I think it needs to be like that because, as I have learned or just begun to learn, I suppose, the dynamics of special education are certainly something that require an ongoing attention to the changes in the challenges facing special educators and the department in this prov ince. I hope that is helpful. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chairman, yes, I think that will be helpful to at least some of the people who have spoken to me about their difficulties with the directive of last year. I think there was some uncertainty as to what its implic ations were. We are moving through the special needs review in this area, and I wonder if the minister could discuss some of his responses to the

section dealing with gifted education which is another aspect of special education. Its is one, I am sure, that there have been representations to the department on over the years. There are some specific recomme ndations in the report for specific all ocations for gifted education and it is not one, even though there is the opportunity for it, in my experience which forms a great part of the ADAP reports.

So I wondered what information the minister has, what kind of information is collected across the system and what, based on that information, he is planning to do with the recommendation from the special needs review. Mr. McCrae: We do not have evidence, as the honourable member suggested, of uncertainty respecting the ADAPs. You know, I guess if the honourable member would like to check with the people she has been talking to, if they would like

1376 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 99 to contact us directly, we would be pleased to discuss any uncertainties there might have been. But we do not know of any, so that is why I am troubled by the language used by the honourable member. We would be happy to follow that up, though, because we are not at every single place at every single moment. So if somebody has been uncertain about something, I would not mind knowing about that. I am advised that under the programs that exist, exceptional students include gifted students.

So I know from my consultations that this may be one area of uncertainty in the minds of some people, because it was rai sed with myself that maybe special education does not take enough account of gifted children. So I am advised that gifted children are included in any definition of exceptional children, and ADAPs should and can contain progra ms, structures and plans for gifted children. To the extent that those ADAPs do not have that, then perhaps the Special Education Review will assist us in ensuring that that is covered across the province.

Currently, gifted education is supported through Level I funding, and school divisions, of course, determine how Level I funding is used. * (1 620) Ms. Friesen: Could the minister perhaps put on the record then a

summary or some examples well, preferably a

summary-of the kinds of gifted education programs that do exist across Manitoba and perhaps some indication of where he sees the best practices and the kind of indication which might enable the public to have some indication of how the government was planning to respond to the recommendation of the special needs review which recommends a specific allocation for gifted progra mming? Mr. McCrae: I am going to obtain profiles for the honourable member, and it will also be of benefit to myself. I will get that probably by tomorrow or next time we sit. Ms.

Friesen: In terms of the funding for gifted education, the minister has indicated that currently it is provided through Level I. Clearly the review is making a different recommen dation, a specific allocation be made to ensure the deli very of gifted progra mming. Has the minister given some thought to that response, and can he perhaps give us some sense of what direction the department will be taking? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I have indeed given this some thought through my own personal consultations. The department has been working on the recommendations in the report.

Indeed, it does suggest that a separate category be established for gifted education. We will be looking at this issue along with all the other ones, including the information respecting best practices literature and experience. So I think that is the direction we are heading in all right. Ms. Friesen: In

Section D of the responses, which is the area that I am looking at at the moment, which is where the gifted recommen dation came, there is also a recomm endation that Manitoba Education and Training redefine criteria for categories, I would think particularly Levels II and III, although it does say Levels I, II and III, based on student needs rather than on labels, which assume that all children with certain name disabilities require exactly the same level and type of support.

I think the minister is probably aware of the concerns of the Learning Disabilities Association and the questions that have arisen about the issue of whether one names a disability or whether one does not name a disability. Does the government have a particular policy in that area, and how does it apply it to special needs funding and special needs issues? Mr. McCrae: I know that there is some frustration with some people respecting the inabil ity to define by name a child's problems or difficulties at school.

Just how precisely that is being addressed, I think I could either await now the department's response or we could discuss that further at the next sitting. I am not sure what staff would prefer. Yes, the department currently uses a process that includes presenting behaviours-a gain, the honourable member identifies issues that I have been identifying too. The department looks at that recommendation or that comment and wants very much to find a way not to be too rigid in terms of compartmentalizing children who have special needs. In order to attach funding to the

May 17 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 77 various issues that child ren have that are not easily compartmentalized is a difficult process. I have no doubt about that. * (16 30) We need to find some kind of balance between no definition of need, even though a need of some kind certainly exists, and just labelling children, so that if you fall within a certain category you get X number of dollars or services. That does not work. That is one of the reasons we need this review and the work that flows from this review. So the department is grappling with this, along with the people with whom we work.

So the department is grappling with this, along with the people with whom we work, and finding that balance is something that-I do not know if my answer here will do justice to what has actually been happening, but I certainly understand the problem that has been raised with the honourable member. Neither solution seems perfect. I suppose no solution will ever be perfect, but we cannot simply compartmentalize kids or categorize them, and then if they do not fall into the category, they do not get any help, because that is not good for them, and it is not good for the whole class or the whole school.

On the other hand, the more we can customize programs for each and every child who needs special education, the better we will succeed. How best to arrive at a system-wide response to that type of issue remains, I suggest, the challenge, but it is not one we are not up to or willing to take on. We already focus more on need than we do on labels, but as to the balance that I referred to, the work continues. As I say, we have a dedicated person, and we also have a clearly defined unit now in the department to address the issues in the Education Review.

I know it is going to take some time, and it has to take some time in order for it to be done properly and done well. We will find that balance. The department is quite determined about that. I think that everybody understands the nature of this problem, and I think that is part of the reason I can be confident that we will find some kind of system that everyone will be satisfied with or okay with. It is just that it is almost cruel to misla bel a child or to label one and because you do not fit into that category, you get an inappropria te education, or, worse, you get no special attention.

So I thank the honourable member for raising that question because it is a very impor tant one. Ms. Friesen: I want to pick up on some of the recomme ndations in the report for increased co operation across the department. We referred to this earlier in some of the recommendations of the special needs review for the government to clarify its direction. I wanted to ask about the Children and Youth Secretariat and the policy areas . I am going from 16. 1 (b), the Executive Support policy areas , as well as the special needs review.

I wanted to ask the minister about the status of a number of programs in Chi ldren and Youth Secretariat which should have had, may still be having an impact in the special needs area. One of them was called Families and Schools Together, FAST. I wonder if the minister could give me a report, a status report from the perspective of the Department of Education on that particular one. There are three others I also want to look at, so if the minister has those materials available. Mr. McCrae: I am going to ask Ms. Loeppky to prepare something so that we can present a good response for the honourable member.

We can do that fairly quickly, like tomorrow or the next time we meet. Before we leave the other one, though, I want to say that Ms. Loeppky has already met with the Learning Disabilities Association to hear their concerns and hopes for the implem entation of the review. I wanted also to say that I do not view the report as any kind of condemnation or major criticism of the system that we have in pla ce now. It was a recognition that the system needed some structure and improvement that caused the government to commission the study

1378 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 99 in the first place. So it would not surpri se me to have recommendations for improvement. I simply do not accept that the report was brought forward to level a bunch of criticisms. That is not really the purpose of having reports. I think there is a lot of good work being done by some very good people in the province with our children, and they simply want some better directions for the future, not unlike better directions in the whole of the education system which results in a better education for the children. The FAST Program is currently being evaluated.

A number of schools are implementing the program . Once we have the evaluations, we will be able to consider the results of this type of investment. Ms. Friesen : I understand the minister undertook to bring back a report on FAST. Is that in addition to what he has just said or is it in lieu of? Mr. McCrae: Yes. We will make some more information available to the honourable member next time we sit. Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask in the same vein about the foster children placement protocol and whether the department could table a copy of that and perhaps some indication of how that has been working.

I want to recognize that the department did in 19 98 make not exactly a recommendation, but it is I belie ve a change in policy to enable funding to follow the student. As far as I know, that was certainly welcomed by the field. I know that the foster children placement plan is in effect. It is an extension of that, but it is again another way of bringing together all the resources of govern ment as well as the community to bear on the education of a child, not always with special physical needs, but many with special needs of vari ous types.

It is certainly an issue not just in the city of Winnipeg, but it is cle arly an issue in rural areas of Manitoba and one where I think staff in school divisions are looking for professional development. They are looking for assistance. So I wondered where we began. Could we begin with the protocol perhaps that the government was encouraged to provide by the Chi ldren and Youth Secretariat? Mr. McCrae: Yes, Mr. Chairman. We will make that protocol available. Ms. Friesen: The transition to adulthood, I belie ve there was also another Children and Youth Secr etariat plan or a strategy to deal with that.

Could the minister table any documents or give us a brief update on what has been achieved by that particular co-oper ation of the Children and Youth Secretariat? * (1 640) Mr. McCrae : In February of this year, the Child ren and Youth Secretariat sent out information to all superintendents, student service administrators, principals, and also to departments of Education and Family Services and Health, sent out a document related to the Manitoba transition planning process support guidelines for students with special needs reaching age 16.

I remind the honourable members of the committee that the Child and Youth Secretariat is Jed by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) but involves ministers like

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-28
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 28.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	641177ced002ffb2dd28b93a26ed145ca8e2ab89

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