Social Services Committee

2012-04-25

Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees

April 25,

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Mr. Lane, MHA for Mount Pearl South,

substitutes for Mr. Crummell, MHA for St. John's West, and for Mr. Little, MHA

for Bonavista South, for a portion of the meeting.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CLERK (Ms Murphy): I call for a nomination for Chair.

MR. LITTLE: (Inaudible).

CLERK: Okay. It is moved by Mr. Little, and we do not need a seconder, so

Mr. Littlejohn is elected by acclamation.

Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you doing it by nomination?

CLERK: Yes.

MR. LITTLE: I nominate the hon. Member for Port de Grave.

CLERK: Are there any other nominations? Any other nominations? Any other

nominations?

Mr. Littlejohn is acclaimed Chairman.

CHAIR (Littlejohn): Before we begin and turn it over to the minister for

comments, just some procedural items.

I read the last Estimates Report, and in the last Estimates Report the

minister is given fifteen minutes, if he wishes, to comment and bring opening

remarks. Minister, before you start your remarks I am going to ask you to

introduce your staff at that time. If you would do that, sir, or they can

introduce themselves.

Just some procedural items for the Committee; in the last report, basically

what happened was that the first respondent, being the Opposition Party and I

guess Mr. Joyce, Eddie, you will do that this morning was given fifteen

minutes to respond, and then we rotated ten and ten.

Is that okay with the Committee?

AN. HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay, we are good. If we are good with that, I will give leave to

the minister

George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just as a point of procedure, I would like to get something straightened away

as regards to the process that we will be going through this morning, and I

guess for the other committees that are going to be meeting over the next couple

of weeks.

It is my understanding from the hon. Member for Grand Bank in consultations

that we had, what we will be doing is that even though, for example, the Social

Services Committee is meeting now and Gerry Rogers is our appointment to the

Social Services Committee, that we would be doing the question asking as per our

critic areas. So, we will still be sticking to that process, yes?

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: You are welcome. Thank you, George.

Just before I go to the minister; Minister, I will let our MHAs introduce

themselves. I will start on my far right.

Mr. Little.

MR. LITTLE: Glen Little, MHA, Bonavista South.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, MHA, District of Port au Port.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA, Bay of Islands.

MS ROGERS: Gerry Rogers, MHA, St. John's Centre.

MR. MURPHY: George Murphy, MHA for St. John's East.

MR. LANE: Paul Lane, MHA for Mount Pearl South.

CHAIR: We need to elect a Vice-Chair, the Clerk informs me.

Can we have a nomination for Vice-Chair?

MR. JOYCE: What, no nominator?

CHAIR: No. I am assuming that it comes from the Opposition,

traditionally, Eddie. I would assume that someone needs to nominate somebody

from the Opposition to be Vice-Chair.

That is the normal procedure, Elizabeth?

CLERK: Yes.

CHAIR: Yes.

Can I have a nomination for Vice-Chair?

Gerry.

MS ROGERS: I nominate Eddie.

CHAIR: Eddie Joyce is nominated as Vice-Chair.

Do we have any other nominations for Vice-Chair going once? Are there any

other nominations for Vice-Chair twice? Are there any other nominations for

Vice-Chair, for the third and final time?

Hearing no further nominations, Mr. Eddie Joyce is the Vice-Chair of the

Social Services Committee. Congratulations Eddie.

Minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: Good morning, everyone.

It is a pleasure to be here. I am sorry for the delay in regard to the start,

but before I have my opening remarks I would like for my staff to introduce

themselves, just in case somebody does not who is who.

Starting to my immediate left.

MS BARNES: Good morning, I am Sandra Barnes. I am the Deputy Minister of

Municipal Affairs.

MR. SAMSON: Good morning, I am Mike Samson. I am the Chief Executive

Officer and Deputy Minister responsible for Fire and Emergency Services.

MR. MERCER: Good morning. Cluney Mercer, Assistant Deputy Minister,

Engineering and Land Use Planning, and Waste Management.

MR. JONES: Good morning. Scott Jones, Departmental Comptroller.

MS MCCORMACK: Good morning, I am Marilyn McCormack. I am the Assistant

Deputy Minister of Fire and Emergency Services.

MR. SMITH: Good morning, Paul Smith, Assistant Deputy Minister, Municipal

Support.

MR. HEALEY: Good morning, Rick Healey, ADM, Employment Support.

MS MUNDON: Good morning, I am Tansy Mundon, Director of Communications.

MS GULLAGE: Good morning, Cheryl Gullage, Public Relations, Fire and

Emergency Services.

MR. O'BRIEN: Again, good morning everyone. I am happy to be here. I will

just make a few opening remarks. Hopefully, I will not take up fifteen minutes,

but I have been known to get entrenched and go beyond the allotted time and have

to be called by the Chair.

I firmly believe over the last number of years that we have developed a very

strong relationship between government and municipalities in Newfoundland and

Labrador. At various times that has been demonstrated in public by mayors

stating that very fact. I take great pride in that, in regard to our

relationship, because I see that we have to have a strong relationship and a

partnership between the two levels of government in our Province.

We have clearly demonstrated to municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador

over the last number of years our commitment in regard to their viability and

sustainability with our infrastructure commitments. We have demonstrated that

over the past number of years, certainly in our surplus years. Our level of

funding remains relatively strong, even though we find ourselves in a deficit

position in this particular year. In saying that, even though we demonstrated it

in our surplus years, we are demonstrating it once again in our deficit years,

and these are real deficits.

We always encourage collaboration, sharing of services and regionalization,

if at all possible, with the municipalities because we have to have economies of

scale. We have to get the bang for our dollar. There is only one taxpayer in

Newfoundland and Labrador. There are only a number of revenue streams in the

Consolidated Revenue Fund. We have to maximize our investments in each and every

department, especially when we have a department such as Municipal Affairs that

has the sole responsibility of supporting our municipalities in Newfoundland and

Labrador.

We find ourselves in a deficit position this year, and it is a real deficit.

I would like to say we have predicted deficits in the past that are based on the

volatile market, the market of oil and oil pricing. This time around we have two

real things that contribute to that deficit, and those are the ending of the

Atlantic Accord, which takes about $503 million or $500-and-something million

out of revenue stream; and the other is we have two FPSOs off the wellheads,

which will decrease our production rates. Thus, we have less oil to sell. Even

though we have a volatile pricing regime in regard to oil prices globally, these

two things will contribute significantly to the deficit position we are

predicting this year.

I would also like to say all levels of government have the responsibility to

budget and to create revenue streams to provide the services they want to

provide to the people who elected them in their municipalities, the provincial

government, or the federal, for whatever level of government you are. They have

that responsibility, no different than us, because the bottom of line of it is

there is only one taxpayer, and that is the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Whoever taxes them, it is just out of one source. We all have to keep that in

mind.

For the past year, we have been working through a complex process of

developing a new MOG. We have, and I have as the minister responsible, committed

to consult with MNL and municipalities in general in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I want to be on record, too, and at various times I have mentioned this in

regard to my speaking engagements and any interaction that I have had with

municipalities, mayors, councils, or MNL itself, that I am not interested in

developing something that is not affordable, not interested in something that is

not sustainable to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. We have to have

something that is transparent, that people can understand, and that is the

process that we will go through over the next little while, and hopefully we

will come to a conclusion with the MOG formula sometime in this fiscal year.

That is my commitment to MNL and that is my challenge and my need that I have

expressed to MNL that we need to get this done. With that, last year you see

that we invested $4.6 million in the MOGs my base funding is $17.8 million, so

we invested $4.6 million on top of the $17.8 million. I am happy to say that we

are going to maintain that until we get the MOG formula redeveloped and a new

one in place that is affordable and sustainable to the people of Newfoundland

and Labrador.

As well, I mentioned that even though we find ourselves in a deficit position

that we are investing heavily in infrastructure, which we found ourselves in

2003 in a huge deficit when it came to infrastructure investments across all our

municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador. We are investing $130 million over

two years, which will see significant improvement in the lives of the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador, through such investments in water, sewage treatment,

whatever it may be.

I must also mention that at various times now over the last couple of years

we have had $700 million worth of ask in regard to my commitment authority. So

with $130 million, we have to be very strategic in regard to our investments,

and we have to have our core mandate as water and waste water. So, we will

continue the process in supporting our municipalities, our municipalities are

working in partnership with ourselves, and we see that we have made significant

investments over the last number of years.

I would also like to mention at this particular time that since 2008,

Municipal Affairs has invested over $500 million in municipalities across

Newfoundland and Labrador in various projects, be it small, or be it large. So,

that is a significant amount of dollars. In regard to the past history of

government and past governments, that is a huge investment. We will continue

that and we will continue to strive towards making our municipalities

sustainable in the future.

Provincial waste management: We have made significant progress over the last

number of years. At the end of the fiscal year 2012-2013, we would have invested

$147.2 million into solid waste management. We have seen significant strides on

the Eastern waste management. We have seen significant strides with the opening

of our new facility in Norris Arm. Out of that $147.2 million, $84.7 million of

that is provincial dollars, and $62.5 million of that is from the gas tax.

You will see, at the end of that fiscal year, two-thirds of the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador, the population of Newfoundland and Labrador, being

able to dispose of their waste in lined landfills, which is the only acceptable

disposal process now in our environment. At the end of that particular fiscal

year 2012-2013, about 50 per cent of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador

will be able to recycle. I think that is very significant when it comes to

protecting our environment, which is incumbent on each and every one of us as

the citizens of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

From the perspective of our Community Enhancement Program, we have invested

heavily. I believe it was a little over $9 million last year, which provides

short-term employment to people who are just short, in regard to their hours,

for EI eligibility. As well, we invest wisely from the provincial point of view

in projects that would have lasting effects on the particular communities and

the particular groups that apply for those types of programs.

It is a very worthwhile program. Most of the dollars go out in rural

Newfoundland and Labrador where employment is not as achievable as it is in St.

John's, Gander, or Clarenville. We invest there regardless of where it is to,

just as long as it is a good project that will have two effects: It will employ

people and will have a significant lasting effect on the particular community

that it is in.

Fire and Emergency Services: We have invested heavily over the last couple of

years. I believe that last year we invested $3.9 million in regard to vehicle

purchases; the year previous to that, we had $2.5 million. We have a $1.7

million base. This year, we are going back to the $1.7 million base. That is

duly because of the deficit position that we find ourselves in. Plus, we have to

do a fair bit of work there too. We have over 300 fire departments in

Newfoundland and Labrador. We have a challenge in regard to the human resource

side, in regard to volunteers, smaller communities not having enough people to

really provide a good service.

When it comes to the fire departments we want to see regionalization,

collaboration and partnership between them as well. This will give us time, a

break to have a good look in that regard and work with our fire departments to

enable them to be able to provide the much-needed critical service they provide

to the people they have volunteered to provide that service to.

With that, those are my opening remarks. I just wanted to say a couple of

things. I will be open for any questions in regard to the estimates of my budget

for this fiscal year.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

I will ask the Clerk to call the first subhead, please.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: The first subhead is 1.1.01.

Do I have a motion to have that carried, please?

Moved by Mr. Joyce.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded?

Carried.

Just one second, George. We need to get through this procedure. Were you

contra-minded, George, or not?

MR. MURPHY: No, I was going to ask a question about the line items.

CHAIR: Contra-minded?

Carried.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CHAIR: We can open debate, and I turn the floor over to Mr. Joyce. You

have your fifteen minutes, sir.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Minister.

Thank you to all of the staff for showing up today and answering some of the

questions.

There is one thing, Minister, in the Budget documents that was left out this

year. It is the first time, I think, in about forty years. It is the number of

employees.

Do you have the number of employees that are in your department? In the

Budget it is the first year that it was not. Can someone undertake

MS BARNES: In Municipal Affairs, we have typically in the area of 116,

sometimes ranging to 130 employees that are in the department proper.

One thing you should be aware of there, we house the shared service unit for

financial management for five departments and two agencies. Approximately

eighteen employees are in that unit. The rest are working in Engineering and

Land Use Planning, Municipal Support, or Employment Support.

Mike can speak to Fire and Emergency Services.

CHAIR: Just one second. I want to remind all members if you could

identify yourself for Hansard prior to speaking, that would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

MR. SAMSON: In Fire and Emergency Services Newfoundland and Labrador, we

have a permanent staff complement of twenty-three. That will on occasion rise,

particularly when we get into situations where we are responding to disaster

events. For example, Hurricane Igor, which would cause us to bring in a number

of short-term temporary people to work through the recovery process on that;

but, our permanent staff complement is twenty-three people.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Of those employees, how many are permanent and how many are temporary? Are

you aware of that? You can undertake to get it to us in the next day or so.

MS BARNES: How many are permanent? Our engineers in our regional offices

work as a percentage of our Capital Works budget. So, they are considered

temporary but as long as the funding is there every year we maintain them on a

permanent basis. I think we have about 115 permanent positions and the rest

would be of a temporary nature.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Thank you.

Minister, you mentioned the MNL and you are trying to get a fiscal

arrangement, hopefully, done this year. I am just asking for clarification

because it was brought to my attention, and I seen it myself.

The Minister of Finance was out yesterday saying there will be no discussions

until they get into a surplus position, which is 2014 before they start

discussions. There is a bit of confusion there and I will give you an

opportunity to clarify it.

MR. O'BRIEN: (Inaudible) fiscal arrangement, one of them is a municipal

operating grant formula. That is one component of a new fiscal arrangement. What

I have committed to, number one, is developing that municipal operating grant

formula in consultations with MNL and municipalities in general, hopefully by

the end of this fiscal year or late this fall. That is a commitment I have made,

and I made it previous even to this budget, that we have to get this done. We

have to have something affordable, something that is transparent, and something

that we can sustain long into the future.

The other piece of the fiscal arrangement, which some of it lies within

finance, such as things mentioned in the Wade Locke report or the rebate on HST,

whatever it is. We find ourselves in a real deficit position this year and we

predict that we will be in a deficit position for a number of reasons next year.

It is a bigger piece. As a matter of fact, I was listening to the President of

MNL this morning, it was on Night Line last night, and they do not expect

anything in that regard for at least a year-and-a-half or so. That is a process

that we will start.

The Minister of Finance was saying we cannot entertain anything like that

until we get ourselves out of a deficit position. We are open for discussions

and talks in regard to Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador. The main focus

right now is going to be on the development of the new MOG formula, which is a

component of a new fiscal arrangement.

MR. JOYCE: The other portion of it, the HST is through Finance more so

than through Municipal Affairs?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is correct.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The other question is, and this may go along with the Department of

Environment also. How many boil orders are there in Newfoundland and Labrador

right now? I know it is a fair number.

MR. MERCER: The number of boil water advisories can fluctuate

significantly because any time there is a water main break and you have to do a

repair, there is a temporary boil water advisory that gets posted. They can

fluctuate. Typically it is in the range of 200 to 230 at any given time. There

are about 150 of those that we would consider to be long-term boil water

advisories.

MR. JOYCE: I know it is a difficult scenario to be in with the boil

orders. What is the department doing? I understand the money is going into

Municipal Affairs, but is there anything that can be done?

I understand it is the surface water, and we have all been through it and it

is tough. Are there any long-term solutions that the department can look at,

because it is a big thing out on the West Coast? People ask me to bring it up. I

know it has been ongoing for a long while and I understand the complications of

the boil orders.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is the reason why we have invested heavily in

municipalities and infrastructure, particularly since 2008, and over $500

million has gone into water and waste water mainly in the water projects across

Newfoundland and Labrador. That is one thing.

The other piece is that we have invested in what we call PWDU systems. If we

cannot address the issue in an equitable and affordable manner in regard to

water, we have invested in those types of systems which we have a number of them

up and running in Newfoundland and Labrador now. We have twelve more. We have a

number of requests in the department and we are seeking requests in regard to

investing in that regard. That gives these people clean water that they can have

for all the citizens in regard to the particular community in question.

There are a number of issues in regard to boil orders. It is sometimes not

necessarily just the quality of the water either. We have communities and I

have to say here that have chlorination systems in their communities but do

not have them turned on because, I have been told, they just do not like the

taste of chlorine. That is a decision the municipality will make on their own.

It is a significant concern of government and me, as the minister, that we

endeavour to have clean water to all of our municipalities in Newfoundland and

Labrador. We will continue to invest as we have in the past in regard to

infrastructure investments.

MR. JOYCE: Just a follow-up to that: Since all of this money has been

invested, how many boil orders has there been a decrease or an increase? I

remember in 2004 there were 180 or 190 boil orders.

MR. O'BRIEN: I do not think we can actually give you the data here

because that lies within the Department of Environment and Conservation. It is a

better question for them. As my Assistant Deputy Minister mentioned, that number

can fluctuate at any given time due to a number of variables and reasons. It is

hard to put a real number onto it.

It was only recently we had a system commissioned in regard to a project. I

just cannot remember the name of the community.

OFFICIAL: Belleoram.

MR. O'BRIEN: Belleoram came off the boil order. We are making it. I

cannot keep an eye on each and every one of them, but if you want, I can

endeavour to get you some information once the Estimates are over. I have no

problem with sharing that kind of information.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Thank you, Minister.

I am just going to ask a few questions. I am going through it line by line.

MR. O'BRIEN: Sure.

MR. JOYCE: In 1.1.01, Transportation and Communications, last year there

was a revised budget; 2012 rose to $92,000 from $44,000.

MR. O'BRIEN: You did not check on-line, did you?

MR. JOYCE: What?

MR. O'BRIEN: Everything is posted on-line in regard to transportation.

MR. JOYCE: No, I do not check on-line.

MR. O'BRIEN: Anyway, that is mainly due to the price of flights between

St. John's and Gander.

MR. JOYCE: Pardon me?

MR. O'BRIEN: The flight from St. John's to Gander, and Gander to St.

John's I am paying probably about $1,200 on average for a round trip between

Gander and St. John's. That is the reason and that is all dictated by Air

Canada.

MR. JOYCE: Actually, I checked on-line to see

MR. O'BRIEN: You can check on-line.

MR. JOYCE: No, no. I thought it was more for the communications.

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

MR. JOYCE: I thought it was some communication

MR. O'BRIEN: No, all in transportation. It is all me.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, I was not aware of that. I did not check on-line.

In 1.2.01, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was an increase of

$4,600 also.

MR. O'BRIEN: Which line is that again, Eddie?

MR. JOYCE: Line 1.2.01.07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay.

That is to purchase an iPad for myself

OFFICIAL: No, that is the Executive Support one, Minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: Where?

OFFICIAL: In 1.2.

MR. O'BRIEN: In 1.2 I did not catch it.

MR. JOYCE: In 1.2.01.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, 1.2.01.

That is in regard to new equipment, a couple of BlackBerrys, a BlackBerry car

charger, iPad for an ADM, furniture, and a printer and scanner for an ADM

secretary.

MR. JOYCE : Minister, I go back to that first one, 1.1.01. That is

transportation from Gander to St. John's?

MR. O'BRIEN: Are you talking about the Minister's Office, 1.1.01.04?

MR. JOYCE: Line 03.

MR. O'BRIEN: Line 03, sorry.

Yes, that is me.

MR. JOYCE: That is under ministerial travel?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is the only thing I get. Other than that, I walk.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. I was not aware. Going back and forth to your district,

you usually use your

MR. O'BRIEN: No, not for a minister only when the House is sitting.

When the House is sitting, it is charged to my constituency allowance and when

the House is not sitting, it is charged to the department.

MR. JOYCE: We have it different. We have it where we can travel when the

House is not sitting

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: and when it is sitting, it is two different budgets for the

MHAs.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, but it is the reverse. When the House is sitting I have

to go to the House, submit all bills to the House, and when the House is not

sitting

MR. JOYCE: Something should be looked into because that should not be

charged off, that should be more as the MHAs' duties when they are going back

and forth.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 1.2.02, Administrative Support, 01, Salaries, there is

an increase there of $112,000. Was there a position added or positions added?

MR. O'BRIEN: You are talking about up to the $112,000, correct?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: The increase is summer student salaries, as well as there is

a severance there for a Clerk II position retired.

MR. JOYCE: Severance?

MR. O'BRIEN: She retired.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Subhead 2.1.01, Regional Support, Professional Services

MR. O'BRIEN: In 2.1.01?

MR. JOYCE: Under 2.1.01.05, Professional Services, of the unbudgeted

expenditures, there is about $8,300 there.

CHAIR: For clarification, Eddie, where are you?

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 2.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 2.1

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 2.1.01.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, I have it, 2.1.01.05 correct?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is all due to the hiring of a commissioner in regard to

the relocation of Round Harbour. We had unanticipated consultant-type fees, so

that fluctuates from year to year, depending.

MR. JOYCE: Under 2.2.01.05, Professional Services again, $107,000 revised

expenditure of 2011 and the $120,000 for the 2012-2013.

MR. O'BRIEN: Just a second, Eddie. You are going to have to clarify that

number.

MR. JOYCE: Under 2.2.01.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, 2.2.01.

MR. JOYCE: Under 05, Professional Services.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay.

That is money in regard to the regional office supplies and also some money

that we have to use for economics and stats in some work that we need done in

the MOG formula. So we have to pay economics and stats for that service.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

CHAIR: Eddie, your fifteen minutes can we move on and we will come back

to you if you have further questions?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, not a problem.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Gerry?

MS ROGERS: No, I am fine on to George.

CHAIR: Okay.

George (inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much.

Good morning, Mr. Minister, along with your staff. I know you are facing some

particular challenges. I would also like to say good morning to Mr. Mitchelmore

and Mr. Crummell who have joined us now.

Mr. Minister, just to come back first off to that line item 2.2.01

MR. O'BRIEN: Line 2.2.01.

MR. MURPHY: In Professional Services, you said some money was gone into a

study for Municipal Operating Grants, I believe was your answer.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it is not a study in Municipal Operating Grants; it is

actually the collection of data that would inform the process of developing a

new formula.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: You have to have stats in regard to the number of roads,

that kind of thing, that might be developed since the old formula in 1992 was

developed, and these kinds of things.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. That would be a private company that is out there doing

the

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it is a division of government, Economics and

Statistics, which is a part of Finance. They do not have the money to do that

work for us. We actually pay them to get that done. So it is a transfer of money

in that regard.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect, okay. I just had to have a further question on that

one.

I do have some questions here as regards to the various branches of your

department here before I get on with some line items. As regards to the funding

efforts for water, I think there is a direct concern here as regards to water

sampling and boil orders. That much we know about, and Mr. Joyce has asked those

questions already. I am a bit curious in regard to any federal impacts we might

have seen from the last federal budget.

Is there anything lost here that we may have lost through any federal funding

initiatives, for example? Has the department faced any cutbacks when it comes to

any monies that might have been directed to water?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, none whatsoever.

MR. MURPHY: None whatsoever. Okay.

As regards to a further issue when it comes to water, last year in Estimates

there was an issue in regard to the recoup of money from OCI. I believe you had

an issue that you were working out there.

Can you give us an update as regards to what was happening there?

MR. O'BRIEN: You are talking about the industrial water supply

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: in regard to a number of communities in Newfoundland and

Labrador. One is Port Union. The other one is Comfort Cove, Dildo, and this kind

of thing. There are industrial water rights systems in place and then there is a

charge that is levied to a particular community.

Right now, our invoices are gone out to the particular proponents, the owners

of the plants. We hope we would have collection of that particular revenue

source within this fiscal year. That is the normal process.

MR. MURPHY: How much do they owe the government right now for water?

MR. O'BRIEN: I would say they probably owe us about $700,000

approximately $715,000, maybe if I can remember my numbers right. That is

just OCI.

Now, we have an anomaly there in Port Union, as well. We have a plant that

was severely damaged during Igor that will never open again. That has been

announced by the company. That is something we have to take into consideration

in regard to those particular fees.

MR. MURPHY: It is a little bit disturbing to know a company like that

would have that much of a debt load that it owes to the government. You say OCI

owes about $700,000 to government right now, but are there any other companies

that owe money to government in regard to that dollar level? Can we get a list

of those companies?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is it. That is the only one who owes us. There might be

a couple of other companies, I think out I am trying to remember one of them.

It is a very small company, but it is very insignificant amounts. The major

portion of the $700,000 is OCI because they happen to own those plants in those

particular communities that have industrial water systems in them.

There are six communities, so the major portion of it comes from OCI. They

just happen to own the plant and that is the reason, but it is a normal process

for municipal affairs to send out invoices and then collect them in the next

fiscal year. It is just the timing of the thing.

MR. MURPHY: How long has that been on the books now?

MR. O'BRIEN: It is a continuous process from year to year to year.

MR. MURPHY: It just rolls over.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it rolls, absolutely.

MR. MURPHY: They have not been keeping up with it.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. I think there is probably a process here that I just

keep thinking we are owed $700,000 and somebody should account for it. We are

talking layoffs in the department, we are talking about

MR. O'BRIEN: That is not a long-term debt. That is a continuous process.

In the meantime, we do like I just said, there is an issue out in Port Union

that we have to address, along with the community and OCI, in regard to that

particular facility that will not open. It was severally damaged by Igor.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. Thank you very much for that one.

A little bit of a question on your debt servicing program too because I know

that you have been having some progress as regards to the debt servicing costs

to municipal affairs. Maybe you can give us an update on that.

That would be

section 3.1.01. I think that was one of the topics, as well,

that came up last year. Perhaps you can give us an update on how those debt

servicing moves have been going.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. We continue to endeavour to pay that down. As you

probably know, we moved from a loan-type process in regard to urban-municipal

Capital Works to a cash base in 2008. We continue to pay down on that debt. As a

matter of fact, it is down now to about $133.7 million.

We paid down about $9.2 million this year past and we will continue to do

that. You will see that in a declining position because we do not make loans to

Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador since 2008, and we will continue to pay

that down. As long as you are the critic on this particular committee, next year

you will see a decline on the principal side and on the debt servicing side as

well. That is a continuous process. We have to have that paid out, and paid out

completely, by 2020.

MR. MURPHY: Yes. Well, it looks like you have been making some pretty

good progress on it. The difference in the amount, for example, from last year,

if I am looking at these amounts correctly, $26,320,000 down to $23,4230400 in

section 3.1.02 Municipal Debt Servicing Principal.

Is the difference rolled back into the department again so that the

department can do more spending, for example? Does that give you any kind of a

buffer to pour money back into it?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it does not work that way. That is a debt that is held

in the Department of Finance for Municipal Affairs. We pay it down but it does

not free up any more money in regard to investing in municipal infrastructure.

That is a budgetary process that we have to go through to determine our

commitment authority for this particular year.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Just a couple of more questions; progress for the Northeast Avalon Regional

Plan and the Humber Valley Regional Plan, I wonder if the minister can give us

an update on that one as well?

MR. O'BRIEN: That was a question, too, last year. In regard to the number

of communities that is affected by the NEAR Plan, we had a request from those

particular members to do a significant rewrite of the consultative process. We

had to revise the schedule. We had to revise the cost as well. Now we figure we

will have that rewrite done probably by the end of May and start moving it

forward, hopefully, in a significant way.

MR. MURPHY: We will see those plans shortly?

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: We are endeavouring to do so. It is just that we got bogged

down in regard to that rewrite. In the meantime, we make every endeavour to make

sure that that actual plan is in place as quickly as we can get it.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, perfect.

I wanted to get over to unincorporated communities. I know they have been

having difficulties on their own but there is a problem in regard to a

moratorium when it comes to getting any work done. They want to go ahead and get

incorporated just to be able to avail of more services and everything. Do you

have any comment on that?

MR. O'BRIEN: The total focus and I want to use the word total, okay

of Municipal Affairs, and me, as the minister, is on our municipalities. They

are number one. We have a severe deficit in regard to infrastructure that we

encountered in 2003. We have had the fortunate aspect of being able to invest

heavily in Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador, and will continue to do so.

I personally believe that each and every household and homeowner in

Newfoundland and Labrador have a responsibility to pay taxes and pay the right

level of tax for the services they would require. If a person chooses to live in

an unincorporated area, well then that particular service is for them to provide

themselves, because they are not a part of a municipality, they are not a part

of an LSD. They probably chose to live there for a reason.

CHAIR:

Thank you, George.

Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

I just want to get back to the industrial waste services for a minute,

Minister. You mentioned Port Union, or OCI because of Port Union, do they owe

government money because of that?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, not at all. We have sent the invoices out in regard to

that particular community. We have had no interaction with OCI, but from my

point of view as the minister responsible for municipalities, and Trinity in

particular, they have a system now that is not a normal system to provide water

to their particular households.

It is an expensive system to run. It is way beyond the spec requirement in

regard to a water system. We have to address that somehow or other. So, we will

continue in the process in regard to that particular community and see where we

come out of the woods on it in regard to a solution.

MR. JOYCE: Do OCI, from another plant, owe the government funding through

this here owe money?

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, all the invoices for the six communities in question

have gone out. Each one of them is outstanding at this particular time, and we

would normally collect them in this fiscal year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

Minister, 2.3.03.01 Salaries

MR. O'BRIEN: 2.3.03?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, sir, 2.3.03.01

MR. O'BRIEN: Salaries 01?

MR. JOYCE: Yes. It is under Rural Planning. There were positions added

there?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, there were. There were two Planner III positions added

and a filling of a Clerk III position as well.

We have had a lot of requests in regard to our Urban and Rural Planning

division and that is all because of economic development. People are trying to

grow their communities and they have a good chance to do so. We have good times

and are fortunate to be able to weather the global downturn. They are trying to

grow themselves, so we have a lot of requests in regard to that division.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Transportation and Communications, there is an increase there, a revised

increase for 2011-2012.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, that is all reflected because of the number of appeals

that have been heard by the Eastern Appeal Board. That is the major portion of

that in regard to their travel costs, accommodations, et cetera.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Just on appeals, I wrote you a letter a few weeks back, and I got a response

thank you about the Western Appeal Board. Is there any movement on that yet?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. We should soon have that rectified.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, because there were two or three appeals that people

mentioned to me that there were no members on the board.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, we will have that rectified soon. We have to get good

people who can sit on those appeal boards. They have to be suited for that

particular board. We will have that done in pretty short order.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect. Thank you.

Professional Services, again in 05 of the same subhead, there was a revised

increase.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, that is consultant costs in regard to Phase III of the

Trans-Labrador Highway in regard to protected road zoning plan.

MR. JOYCE: The Trans-Labrador Highway?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is a normal part of the process as we move through

the different phases.

MR. JOYCE: In 3.1.03 Municipal Operating Grants, subsection 10; part of

the 2012-2013 MOG is showing in the 2011-2012 revised part.

MR. O'BRIEN: Are you talking about 3.1.03.10?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: What is the question again?

MR. JOYCE: Part of the 2012-2013 MOG is showing in 2011-2012 revised.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. As you know, municipalities operate on a calendar year.

We operate on a fiscal year, and we paid it out before the end of this past

fiscal year, March 31.

MR. JOYCE: So it is just accounting?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is all. It is an accounting procedure.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Community Enhancement grants. Again, you can see the details there, it was $

9 million and it was revised. This year I can see in the Estimates that it is

down to $5 million or $6 million.

Is that normal to have a certain amount put in or is it better to have the

amount that is going to be used to have it in?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is a normal procedure. The simple reason is that there

is no scientific data that you can apply to the Community Enhancement program in

regard to the number of people who might be shy in regard to hours for

eligibility on EI.

What we do is use our base and we apply that base to the different districts

and municipalities, and sponsoring committees. Then, in turn, that generates a

fair bit of information coming back from you, as the MHA, that would identify a

need. Once we accumulate the particular data that comes back from the districts

and from the MHAs in particular, well then I would consider another amount, a

second round per se in regard to the Community Enhancement program. That is

really the only way it can work because it is a very volatile type of program.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Just on that, Minister, I know a few of the projects that were out in the Bay

of Islands were very beneficial. The one I mentioned in the House was the one

in particular was the fire hall in York Harbour where they did the roof and the

siding, and they did inside. It is almost like a brand new hall. That is a great

program, and I know the work the staff does to ensure getting it out in time and

all of that. I just wanted to add that.

There are other projects that were done where work is going to be going on to

help the community. I know the one in the community hall, and the brush cutting

was also another one that came up.

I am just passing it on to the staff who administers that, that it was

timely. I know you have forty-eight of us calling and nagging but just pass it

on that it was worthwhile projects for that, Minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: We do not mind being nagged.

MR. JOYCE: Thank them for having the patience with us.

MR. O'BRIEN: I might want to add as well, we had 289 projects last year

that employed roundabout 2,000 people in Newfoundland and Labrador. This program

is really worthwhile.

As you mentioned, I appreciate your words, it does have and supports

significant projects in various communities. It is just not people standing on

shovels or anything like that. People do good work in regard to these programs.

It is a very worthwhile program, especially in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Under 3.2.01.10, Grants and Subsidies, there is $97 million. I am going to

ask a question, and I do not know if this is done right or not: Is there any

breakdown of the grants and subsidies and where they are going?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is the capital works funding.

MR. JOYCE: When will that be out and ready to go?

MR. O'BRIEN: As soon as you let me out of here, I might be able to finish

it off and frame it up.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, as you know, as you go past it each year, especially

wintertime, it is not good work being done and things like that.

MR. O'BRIEN: I believe after probably this weekend I shall work on it

this weekend hopefully we will have things rolling by the end of next week.

The multi-year is quite easy because that is just identifying the number in

regard to the multi-year municipalities. Then they control their own destiny,

other than they have to submit whatever projects they want to do with that

money. That is a quicker process.

In regard to all the municipalities across Newfoundland and Labrador, you

have a certain amount that you have at your disposal in regard to commitment

authority. I am pretty near now, too I will have a discussion with yourselves

in the next little while, probably this week, or you will probably get a phone

call from me, whatever it may be. Then we will discuss some projects.

MR. JOYCE: The reason why is a lot of municipalities like to get their

work done early. When you get into October and November, especially out our way,

it gets muddy and you do not get as much value for your work.

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely, and the reason why it was a little late last

year is because, as you know, we suspended the multi-year just where I could

have a look at the different programs within Municipal Affairs. I needed to do

that. I could not do it if I did not suspend it.

This year, in regard to the budget and the investment of $130 million, now my

number is set for next year as well. I will be able to get that out probably in

the middle of January or early February next year. I know the number now. I do

not have to wait for it so then we can take advantage of the construction

industry and get good dollar value in regard to the project. We will endeavour

to get this out over the next couple of weeks.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

One more question: When can we sit down and have a discussion on Bay of

Islands?

MR. O'BRIEN: If you are not speaking to the private members' bill, we can

talk today. How is that? I am always available.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

CHAIR: George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was just saying, I was thinking there for a second as regards what he was

saying, but anyway, I digress.

Mr. Minister, just a couple more questions on the overall issues that are

pertaining to various branches of your department. One of them that come to mind

is Fire and Emergency Services. I know some people were probably thinking that

Igor was a prime example of global warming.

I would like to know, probably from your people in your department as well:

Fire and Emergency Services are we ready for it? Are we ready for probably an

increased cost to that particular branch of your department when it comes to

global warming concerns?

For example, this year already we have dealt with a number of brush fires and

everything in the immediate St. John's area. This summer it is probably going to

be one of the warmest on record. Are you anticipating anything?

MR. O'BRIEN: You never know what a year is going to bring. You do not

know what tomorrow is going to bring. We started tracking Igor about two or

three weeks prior to it ever hitting Newfoundland and Labrador, and then you

have to deal with it. You cannot put a figure onto it and you cannot put a

number on it in regard to the effect it may have on municipalities right across

a bandwidth that stretched, in this particular case, from Burin to the tip of

the Bonavista Peninsula. So we deal with that.

As well, in regard to global

warming and the piece you are talking about in regard to being ready, there are

two pieces of that. There is a piece of being prepared, which is part of our

plan and a part of putting emergency plans in place by May 2012 for all

municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador. They are mandated to do that. We

have 95 per cent or plus of those plans already submitted. We are working with

the others to have them in place and hopefully get them in place prior to that

deadline date. That is number one. We have our own provincial plan in place, as

well. That is that piece of it.

Then in regard to the funding aspect of it, we work with our federal partners

under the DFAA program, and work with them in determining, number one, if we are

dealing with a disaster; number two, if it is eligible; and number three, we try

to put a figure to it, which is a volatile, moving number, especially in the

front end of it. If it is not deemed a disaster and we do not avail of the DFAA

program, then we consider all results or issues we have to deal with in regard

to any damage under our Municipal Capital Works Program.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you.

When it comes to emergency preparedness and everything, I would like to ask a

couple of questions on Province-wide 911 and what progress Municipal Affairs has

been making in this regard.

Do you have any proposals back? I think you had some calls for RFPs on that.

Maybe you can give us an update on the progress of 911.

MR. O'BRIEN: We called an RFP. We had a successful company. I believe the

company's name is Pomax. They have done their work and they have submitted their

report to Fire and Emergency Services. It is currently under review. They met

their deadlines that they had in regard to that piece of work we needed to get

done. That is within my department now and it is being evaluated. Then we will

have a look at it a real, cold look at it and start moving it forward.

I must say as well, in regard to 911 it is not just simply implementing it.

There are a number of challenges in regard to implementing 911. We have 911 in

certain areas of Newfoundland and Labrador right now, such as the Northeast

Avalon. We will keep it moving forward, but there are challenges in rural

Newfoundland and Labrador. We have a unique Province in this great country of

Canada, but it is an important thing we have to look at because we have to have

a system in place that people feel safe and can rely on.

That piece of work done by Pomax is significant and it is very worthwhile. We

will start moving it forward now as we evaluate the actual report.

MR. MURPHY: Mr. Minister, I was just wondering: Is this report going to

be made available to our party as well as the Official Opposition?

MR. O'BRIEN: Sure. When we are finished with our piece of work, which

will be not too long from now, then we will release the report.

MR. MURPHY: It will be a pleasure to read it.

Another question in regard to the thermal imaging cameras that were funded

through the Department of Justice and I know the cameras were, in the

meantime, funded through the Department of Justice but were designated out to

certain areas by Municipal Affairs. Why was that?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it was not designated by Municipal Affairs. We worked

with the provincial association, the Search and Rescue Association.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: They had done a lot of work in regard to thermal imaging

cameras over the past number of years. They have lobbied government,

particularly Fire and Emergency Services, over the last number of years. We

funded other pieces of equipment for those particular search and rescue units. I

think there are twenty-six of them in Newfoundland and Labrador in various

areas.

All we did in regard to that piece of work, we provided the association a

grant. They bought the equipment and then they provided them to each and every

search and rescue organization in the particular communities or the particular

regions they are located in.

MR. MURPHY: On that aspect, Municipal Affairs is happy right now with the

land-use coverage and the availability of these cameras in different areas of

the Province?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: I cannot remember where I even saw the map, but one area of

concern directly was on the Northern Peninsula. I think there was only one

camera up on the Northern Peninsula. Is that right?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, and that is because there is only one search and rescue

group there. You must remember that search and rescue groups are very mobile.

They have equipment and that kind of stuff. They move very quickly. They are

very organized. They are very well trained. Just because it is a huge geographic

area does not mean that the particular camera would not be available to a

far-reaching part of that region. You must remember, again, they are very mobile

and very well trained.

As well, it is not just placing a thermal imaging camera in a particular

area. You have to have people who are trained, and well trained, to use those

pieces of equipment. Now, when it comes to the association and the formation of

another group, at some particular time when there is a group over and above the

twenty-six we have in Newfoundland and Labrador now, we will consider another

camera or another piece of equipment, at some point in time.

Right now, the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is well served by the

various search and rescue groups that are in existence. We are well covered as

compared to other jurisdictions in Canada.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, thank you very much.

I have just one more question as regards the Solid Waste Management Strategy.

In the news, particularly over the last little while, it has become a direct

concern with people dumping in areas outside of jurisdictions in some cases. One

particular news report the other day of note involved an area of dumping up

around the back of Paddy's Pond, which is one of our pristine areas of the

Province.

Mr. Minister, I would like to ask: When it comes to the cost some of these

municipalities are facing when it comes to the shipping off of garbage to the

central collection areas, I know this is a direct human concern and that we

should all be concerned with the proper dumping of our garbage and everything,

but is the department looking at possibly heavier convictions in the event of

catching some of these people?

At the same time, in saying that, maybe you can give us an overview on the

challenges that some smaller municipalities are going to be facing as regards to

paying for the cost of garbage removal. It is a direct concern with me, and I

think with a lot of municipalities out there. So maybe you can give us an update

as regards to that and possibly some of the challenges that your department is

going to be facing as regards to that, because illegal dumping is sickening, to

say the least.

MR. O'BRIEN: George, the first thing I will say is that it is the

responsibility of each and every one of us, as citizens of Newfoundland and

Labrador, to protect our environment, and that is what I endeavour to do in

regard to my communication on the Solid Waste Management Strategy in

Newfoundland and Labrador. Each and every opportunity I get, I express that to

the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and I believe that most of it is all in

the education piece.

I grew up on the Southern Shore many, many moons ago. When I grew up it was

acceptable to go in, what we called, the track and dump whatever you wanted to

dump in on the side of that track; everything from old cars to washers and

dryers, to whatever you wanted to dispose of. That was an acceptable thing in

Newfoundland and Labrador back then when I grew up. Nobody even blinked an eye

at it, but that is not acceptable to today's society. It is not acceptable to

us, it is not acceptable to our children, and it is certainly not going to be

acceptable to our children's children.

In regard to the piece that you are talking about now, what I am trying to

get at is that this has been going on for a long, long time in regard to dumping

garbage outside of an acceptable disposal site. It is just that now there is

media attention to it, so now it seems to be more pronounced than it was years

ago, but it is not, it is exactly the same.

In saying that, I firmly believe that we can have resources out there in

regard to human resources but you will never, ever completely irradiate the

dumping of waste in areas such as you just said, Paddy's Pond or wherever it may

be that is not acceptable. You never would. You would have to have someone

standing behind every tree in Newfoundland and Labrador watching everybody in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

What I am getting at is we will start a communications strategy and will be

totally focused I should not say totally focused, but mainly focused in regard

to educating the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that this is not

acceptable. That is the answer, actually. Over a period of time, which is seen

in other jurisdictions in Canada and North America, I think it will become less

and less of a problem. The main focus will have to be on the educational piece.

Boy, I tell you, it never ceases to amaze me. I remember being told about an

incident out in Central Newfoundland and Labrador where there was a drop-off

site provided by the particular community for the weekends. The dump was open on

Saturday and the particular person who dumped illegally bypassed from their home

the drop-off site within the community itself. It was just a left turn. They

could have dropped it off and went on up in their cabin or wherever they went.

They bypassed the open dump on the same road to where they were going to, and

then they dumped after they went by them all.

There is no way on this earth you can counterbalance that. You would never

have enough resources to do so, and human resources in regard to enforcement

officers. The only way you can do that is to educate the person to the point

that it is unacceptable and they are ashamed to do so. I firmly believe that.

That is a process we are going to have to go through.

I would like to also reiterate that this is not a new problem. This is an old

problem that has been going on in Newfoundland and Labrador for a long, long

time.

MR. MURPHY: We just keep beating up on ourselves. I do not know why we

are doing it.

CHAIR: George, do you have any further questions?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, just a couple of line items.

In Fire and Emergency Services Agency, 4.1.03, Salaries I noticed have gone

from budgeted $581,700 for last year, the actual is $504,000, and down to a drop

of $403,600 in the 2012-2013 Estimates. I am curious. Fire and Emergency

Services, as far as I am concerned, is one department that should not be facing

a cut. Are we dealing with a loss of personnel here in this department?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, not at all. It is just a re-profiling of three

positions. There is no loss of jobs, just three positions that needed to be

re-profiled: the Clerk III position, executive support program co-ordinator to

Fire and Emergency Services, and administrative officer to disaster assistance.

It is just identifying areas that they are needed in and re-profiling those

numbers.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Just further down in 4.1.03.05, Professional Services shows $19,400. It went

unspent last year but that budget has been topped up again for this year's

Estimates.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is there in regard to needing consulting services. Last

year we did not need it.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: At various times we may need it.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

Further over to Fire and Emergency Services Agency, 4.1.05 Disaster

Assistance. Salaries there have dropped as well from $426,700 down to a

projected $350,000 this year. Are there job positions lost there as well?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it is not. It just reflects the salary and overtime in

regard to Hurricane Igor.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

That is hopefully going to be back to normal and no hurricanes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Hopefully, no disasters.

MR. MURPHY: We will keep the fingers crossed on that one.

As regards to Disaster Assistance, the $25 million figure just further down,

just below Revenue Federal. That would be a federal contribution they gave to

us.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is correct.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

Finally in that section, in Grants and Subsidies, $6 million; do you have a

list of those grants that were given out for that particular year?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is all the claims, Igor claims.

MR. MURPHY: That is all claims there is it?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

CHAIR: Thank you, George.

MR. JOYCE: I just have a few more (inaudible). Do you need a break or do

you have to make a call or anything? Are you all right?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, I am good.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. I did not know if you had to make a call or something.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, not at all.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, 3.2.02. Federal/Provincial Infrastructure Programs,

10. Grants and Subsidies, the money was budgeted in 2011. Was all the money

spent in 2011-2012 that was budgeted under this program?

MR. O'BRIEN: Are you talking about 3.2.02.10?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, 3.2.02.10.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is due to the reduction in the federal contributions in

regard to the MRF and the Canada Building Fund projects. That is all being

subscribed in regard to our portion of the Build in Canada Fund and all the

components there. That will decrease over the next number of years until we get

a new program in place.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I have a few more questions, Minister, on 3.2.03.10 Grants and Subsidies gas

tax. Was all the gas tax money expended in 2011-2012? It seems like it was not.

MR. O'BRIEN: The gas tax is driven totally by the municipalities in

regard to the projects they submit. There are a number of communities out there

that have not availed of their gas tax this year but we carry that forward for

them until the end of the program.

We have been working with them to identify appropriate type projects that

would fall within the federal guidelines, and we will continue to so. We do not

anticipate it is just that it is an up and down number as well, depending on

the projects that are submitted by the municipalities.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, Environment Canada is coming out with these new regulations for

waste water. I am sure you know the concerns of municipalities. Has the Province

signed on to that yet? I know back years ago they said they would not sign on to

it. Is there anything new on that, because it is a big concern for a lot of

municipalities, as you know?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

The particular guidelines are not clear yet in regard to that federal

program, federal initiative. So, we will be working and collaborating with our

federal counterparts. We do have concerns in regard to the cost but it is a

process that we have to go through. It is not a negotiated process I suppose,

but a consultative process with our federal counterparts.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Do you have any timeline on that? Has the federal government given the

Province any timeline?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, not really. They have not yet. We do not think there is

going to be any new programming dollars until probably 2014, 2015.

MS BARNES: It is waste water. They have not gone through their second

gazetting yet, so we do not know what they look like.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, we do not even know what they look like because they

have not gone through their second gazetting yet at all. We do not even know. We

have just been collaborating with them, discussions, that kind of thing. So

there is really no clarity in regard to those guidelines.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

As you know, the federal government has been saying they want everything in

place by 2020.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: That does not seem realistic right now, does it?

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, we will have to see exactly when they do the second

gazetting we are going to have a look at it and see how much federal money is

going to be available to address the issues and what is going to be the

responsibility of the provinces in question. That is something I would not be

able to speculate on.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I have just a few district things here. The 2012 Budget, is there anything in

the plans to replace the municipal buildings in Charlottetown, in St. Lewis,

Labrador?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is something that we have to work out. Like I said, we

have a commitment authority of $130 million over a two-year period, and that

works out between multi-year and municipal capital works. That is something I

will take into consideration, but just remember in my opening remarks that we

have over $700 million worth of ask.

Our priority is in safe water for the people of the Province and

municipalities. So, I would not be able to venture a guess in regard to those

particular two projects that you have mentioned.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, just a few things out on the West Coast; waste management, as you

know that has been a big topic out our way. The commitments were made, and I

have a letter here from the Great Humber Joint Council asking for a site to be

on the West Coast.

Is there any timeline when the waste management is going to be up and running

out on the West Coast?

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, we are at a decision point in regard to Western

Newfoundland and Labrador, and the decision point is that they are going to pull

to the Central waste facility that is now open. It opened about a

month-and-a-half, two months or so ago. The numbers are looking that this is the

favourable-type solution to Western.

I firmly believe we have made significant progress in Western over the last

year, and will continue to do so. There is a fair bit of work to do over there,

but once we come to that decision in regard to whether we are going to pull into

Central or not, it will move more quickly than it has in the past because we

will have that decision made.

MR. JOYCE: Is there a time frame when there is going to be a decision

made? I will explain why, because there was a letter sent to you and I know

there is a lot of correspondence April 5, from the Great Humber Joint Council

asking that there be a permanent site in the Western Region. They were asking me

to see when the decision is going to be made, a time frame, because this has

been ongoing for a long, long, while.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, we will make a decision in the not-too-distant future in

regard to what we are going to do. As I just said, the numbers and the

consultant report are very favourable to pulling to Central. We have to have a

system in place that is affordable and sustainable to the people that we serve,

and we will endeavour to do so.

The solution to Western is not establishing a facility there, because this

facility in my mind anyway, this whole strategy is all about protecting the

environment of the Province that we live in. So, that is the main focus to me,

but it has to be affordable to the householder and it has to be sustainable to

the householder and the municipalities. Once we make that decision what we are

going to do in Western, well then it will start to move in this fiscal year.

Now, I must caution you, it takes time. You just do not build these things

overnight in regard to transfer stations and that kind of stuff. Robin Hood Bay,

or Eastern, is doing really, really well. Just about every community east of the

Avalon, the isthmus, is trucking into Robin Hood Bay now. Norris Arm is working

quite well. We will be going into the material recovery facility this year,

moving that forward that is funded. We are making great progress.

Again, when it comes to Western, yes, they are lagging behind in regard to

the other two regions, but it will move quite quickly once we make that

decision.

MR. JOYCE: What would you call the near future? I know I am not going to

pin you down. I do not want to pin you down but

MR. O'BRIEN: It will be this fiscal year.

MR. JOYCE: This fiscal year?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: In the letter, they mentioned they would like to have a

discussion with you or someone. I do not know if that is possible. I will just

bring that to your attention. They want to sit down with you the Great Humber

Joint Council which encompasses all the municipalities in the Humber region. I

just bring that to your attention, if it is possible.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, no problem.

MR. JOYCE: The other thing is and it has been a little (inaudible) for

me for years the land use advisory committee; I brought that up earlier. Can

you tell me when there is going to be a final report or when there is going to

be something finalized with this?

MS BARNES: We have to go back, redrafting needs to be done and then it

has to go through another consultation round.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, there is a process that we are going through. Sandra,

my deputy minister, just reminded me that there is redrafting in progress and

then there is another consulting round that has to happen as well. That is

process that we have to go through. We do not want to do something unless we do

it right. Sometimes it takes a bit of time and you have to be patient with it.

MR. JOYCE: What is the purpose of this land use advisory committee right

now? Because it is almost like an issue that is not even in the realm out on the

West Coast, yet

MR. O'BRIEN: When it comes to land use, we have to have controlled

development. We cannot have everything going each and every which way, which

happened in the past. We have to have a controlled development process and

maximize and be conscious of our land use. Because as we develop and expand,

there are pressure points come on infrastructure and infrastructure financing.

We have to be very careful with that

MR. JOYCE: Who does the land use advisory in St. John's? Is it your

department?

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

MR. JOYCE: Why is the only one set up is the one in Corner Brook?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is done by the city.

MS BARNES: Do you want me to speak to that?

MR. O'BRIEN: You can go ahead, yes.

MS BARNES: In the development of the regional plans, there have been

committees set up to oversee it is usually the members of municipalities the

development process of the plan. Once the plan is finalized, then it becomes a

document like the municipal plan. That committee will not be there forever and a

day because the plan is a living document then. Everybody takes their municipal

plan and looks at it in terms of the regional plan to see if there are any

amendments.

For example, there was a regional plan developed for the Northeast Avalon

back in the late 1970s. That still remains the document we refer and match all

the municipal plans against. The members of municipalities on the Northeast

Avalon now are working on a replacement plan for that.

MR. JOYCE: The municipalities themselves?

MS BARNES: Yes, because they are the stakeholders.

MR. JOYCE: Is it under the department

MS BARNES: It falls under the Urban and Rural Planning Act. The regional

plan is the master plan, and then all of the municipal plans fit within that.

MR. JOYCE: This is something I got some of it under freedom of

information. Can I get the expenses for the land advisory committee from

conception to date

MS BARNES: From when?

MR. JOYCE: From when it was started to date expenses, travel expenses,

the cost, and also expenses for the waste management, the cost since it started

up.

I will explain why. It is because and I got this under the freedom of

information from the department the person on the advisory committee got paid,

I think, $49,000 a year for meetings. It is a volunteer thing, but $49,000. I

would like to have the office expenses. There is an office set up now. It is

just started up. Okay, we will do the advisory committee and three years later

we have an office and we have part-time staff set up. It is almost like getting

blown out in trips as I mentioned to the minister, a trip to Niagara Falls for

seven days for sustainable development. In my opinion, it is blown right out of

proportion.

If I can get the expenses for the land advisory committee and the expenses

for the waste management since conception to date for the chairperson I know

Gil Smart was there and he resigned. It is the same person now, Don Downer,

doing both, as the minister knows. It is getting pretty expensive and there are

not a lot of results being seen out on the West Coast. I do not know what is

going on behind the scenes, but I can tell you out on the West Coast there is a

lot of frustration about both. So, if you can undertake to get me all the

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Also, from my understanding and again, I do not know who can

answer this some of the expenses are paid through the Town of Pasadena. The

expenses are actually going through the Town of Pasadena

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, (inaudible) go ahead.

MS BARNES: (Inaudible) do you want to speak to this one.

OFFICIAL: You go ahead.

MS BARNES: Because it is run through the municipality; that is how we set

it up. I think it was set up about 2006 like that.

OFFICIAL: In 2009.

MS BARNES: In 2009, sorry. What we do is the expense reports come in but

they are managed through one of the member of municipalities. The same thing

happens with the NEAR Plan. Money is paid through St. John's, and St. John's

administers the account.

MR. JOYCE: For both for the land advisory committee and the waste

management?

MS BARNES: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, so can I have a copy of what was paid also to the

municipalities, a breakdown?

MS BARNES: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

Because it will save me a lot of time having to go through the freedom of

information, because it is a frustrating issue out there.

Minister, can I go back and again, I will respond to a letter saying that

in this fiscal year there will be a decision, there is no time frame, but within

this fiscal year there will be a decision made. So that would be fair? Because

they are asking me to try to find out when there is going to be a decision made

on the waste management out on the West Coast. So that is what I will say, that

I spoke in Estimates and within this fiscal year, maybe sooner.

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely.

MR. JOYCE: Another issue that was brought to my attention, Minister, was

municipalities and I am not too familiar on it. Engineering for different

municipalities they have an engineer, almost like somewhere there is a

consultant and they do the projects, but it is going to be changed now to a

fee-based project. Is anybody aware of that?

MR. O'BRIEN: Could you repeat that again?

MR. JOYCE: For example, if an engineer is for a town now, they take care

of the projects that

MR. O'BRIEN: Engineering firm of records, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. They do the projects, and then if a project comes up,

that is the engineering for the town. During the year, if there is a little call

or something, they can call an engineer and they would give them free advice or

come down and look at something. A few municipalities mentioned to me that

Municipal Affairs is going to change that, to have it like each project will go

out on tender to get the project, whichever engineering firm gets it. I do not

even know if this is happening. This was just brought to my attention. I told

them I would bring it up.

What they are scared of is that if each project is a stand-alone project

and as you know, some of the municipalities may ask questions and they will not

have an engineering firm to call because it is not, as they call it, the town's

engineers. Is there anything to that?

MR. O'BRIEN: First, I would like to say that when we are spending the

people's money we have to get the best bang for our dollar. There is a cost to

the provincial government, whatever the cost-share ratio is, and there is a cost

to the municipality.

We have to endeavour to get the best work that we can possibly get at the

best dollar value. I will say too, coming from past business, we do not mind

Newfoundland and Labrador companies or any companies making a profit, not at

all, but we have to get a net worth in regard to that investment. That is number

one.

Number two, is that the engineering consulting process in regard to

engineering consultants of record will remain the same. It is just that

Municipal Affairs, and me as the minister, has the option to go to an RFP

process in regard to choosing an engineering consulting firm to manage a project

of a certain size and of a certain complexity. Those types of projects, such as

water treatment or sewerage treatment facilities, that is the piece you are

hearing out there, that we are going to that process.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is a worthwhile process to go through, in that we get a

better value in regard to the RFP process. Instead of going to a straight tender

in regard to one technology, it actually forces the consulting firm to look at

all technologies as well as life-cycle costs and overheads, which is not a

normal part and does not have to be a normal part of the normal tendering

process. That is the reason behind that, because we are spending big dollars in

regard to $20 million, $30 million and $40 million projects. We have to make

sure

MR. JOYCE: This is not the smaller municipalities with the

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. They were quite concerned

MR. O'BRIEN: If you are putting straight pipe in the ground or whatever

it may be and there is no complexity to the actual project itself, it will

remain the same. Other than if we see excessive fees or whatever it may be, I,

as the minister, will be questioning those excessive fees.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

So I can go back to municipalities and say this is mainly geared to the

bigger $30 million, $40 million, or $50 million projects in RFPs?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is correct.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Thank you for that.

CHAIR: One more question, Eddie, before I go back to George. George has a

couple of more questions.

MR. JOYCE: Oh, sure.

CHAIR: Do you have one more?

MR. JOYCE: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay.

I will go back to George then, seeing you have lots more.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to come back to two line items. Then I have about two more

questions for your department and that will be it, on this end anyway. If I have

any other questions after that I will ask you in the House.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is no problem. I am always ready for them.

MR. MURPHY: You are, Sir. What a minister you are, too.

Section 4.1.01 under Executive Support, line 05 Professional Services. I had

down here $180,900 and projected this year to be $150,000. The projected for

last year was $250,000. I wonder if I could get a bit of an explainer on that

line.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is actually to do with POMAX and the 911.

MR. MURPHY: That is POMAX, is it? There you go, that is not bad.

MR. O'BRIEN: We got the contract for less than what we anticipated.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. It sounds good, then. At least the taxpayers will save

some money anyway.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is prudent fiscal management.

MR. MURPHY: We can all go for that, I guess.

The last item I have is regard to the line items. In 4.1.02.10 Grants and

Subsidies, I noticed a huge drop there by just about half, down from $1.126

million to $626,500.

I wonder if I could get an explanation as regards to the grants and subsidies

that might have been there and probably get a list of these grants and subsidies

that were issued.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is actually, George, in regard to equipment that we

fund for various fire departments in Newfoundland and Labrador. We invested $1

million or so in last year's Budget and I think it was upwards around $1 million

the year previous to that as well. This reflects back to the base Budget because

of the deficit. This funds such things as bunker suits and that kind of thing.

MR. MURPHY: Right. It is a probably a great segue to my final question as

regards to loans and interest rates that Municipal Affairs would be giving to

municipalities.

MR. O'BRIEN: We do not.

MR. MURPHY: You do not do that now?

MR. O'BRIEN: We do everything on a cash basis since 2008.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, okay.

What I am wondering about is the actual debt servicing that some of the

municipalities are going through. I do not know if your department actually

gives municipalities a hand when it comes to the possibility of renegotiating

loans, that sort of thing. Some municipalities of course are carrying a heavy

debt loan as regards to, for example, interest rates were a particular burden

some years back.

I was just wondering if you can address that as regards to the efforts that

Municipal Affairs is giving to municipalities in that regard.

MR. O'BRIEN: We do. We go in and we try to restructure their debt if it

is over the acceptable debt-service ratio. We have had municipalities up in the

40 per cent and 60 per cent range. Most of our municipalities now are down

around 20 per cent and 21 per cent, and below 21 per cent.

We have a large percentage of our municipalities in good position right now

over the last number of years. If that is required, we will send a team in to

sit with the municipality in question and try to restructure their debt so that

it is manageable by the particular community and hopefully work towards an

outcome that they will have an acceptable debt-service ratio in the future.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

I think it was the Town of Bonavista that did a little bit of restructuring

and that saved themselves a huge amount of money.

Mr. Minister, I want to thank you and your staff this morning. I cannot think

of anything else right now that I would like to ask. I think most of my

questions in regard to the line items have been answered here this morning.

I would like to thank your staff for coming in. You have a heck of a

department and you are doing a heck of a job. The responsibility of course on

this end is to work with government to help the minister be the best that he can

be. We will continue the work on that end. You are still a work in progress, but

I acknowledge the work that he has been doing.

Thank you very much for all your efforts and you can thank the people under

you as well.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is always a work in progress, George. They are

continually, for probably about fourteen hours a day, trying to stuff

information into my brain.

MR. MURPHY: I would keep more heat on you but heating oil is real

expensive.

CHAIR: Thank you, George. Thank you, Minister.

Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

Minister, I have a few more questions here about specific things in the Bay

of Islands mainly. This one here is about the new fire trucks, how they were

selected, and I explained why.

I mentioned in one of the few words I had in the House is that the Town of

Cox's Cove were notified at a time not by your department now, this is

political, not by an official in your department that they had a new fire

truck. Then by the time it came out they never had one.

They have a 1983 truck that they have to try to keep going. Now they have to

go and get a new clutch and it takes two weeks to get brought in from the US.

They do not even have parts in Canada. At the time, going back, it was

political, someone stood up and said I told them I would ask them how the

selection is made, so if the minister can explain.

MR. O'BRIEN: We evaluate all of the equipment across Newfoundland and

Labrador at various times. It is a continuous process and we have an aging

fleet. We have invested heavily, as you just referenced, over the last couple of

years with regard to vehicle requirements.

I would not be able to speak to the political side because we actually assign

vehicles according to need because it is all about life and safety issues in the

Province. I caution people that in regard to my remarks to the association

last year when I spoke, I said we are going to soon be announcing approximately

twenty or twenty-two trucks this year. I said that means that there is going to

be about fifty of you that are going to be disappointed, and that is the way it

is.

I would not be able to comment on the political side, but I want to assure

you, whatever fire department you are talking about in regard to the assignment

of the fire truck it was made for the right reasons.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: We keep in mind regionalization too, where we are really

going to get a bang the number of communities that a fire hall services, we

keep that in mind when we are investing because it is good to invest and provide

a truck that is going to provide a service to several communities than just one.

Then, keep in mind that we have some isolated communities as well where that is

not achievable.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, and Cox's Cove is one of those isolated communities

1983, I think it is; they are desperate.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you for that.

The last thing I was going to bring up well, I have two more small issues.

This is something I need clarification of, just for myself. There was a big

project, over $5 million, in Frenchman's Cove in the Bay of Islands. It is in

the Town of Humber Arm South but it is the community of Frenchman's Cove. I do

not know if Cluney is aware of it.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is in water?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, water and sewer. It is a big project.

My concern, that I was asked to raise, is that in part of the establishment

of the project itself, and because of the debt ratio, the waterline was

decreased from six inches to four inches. There is a four-inch waterline there.

Can someone explain to me because most municipalities now there is always a

six-inch waterline, unless it is going somewhere, but it is a four inch.

I will explain the reason why. Because of the four-inch waterline and it is

too late to change it now, but people asked me to bring it up they cannot hook

up a fire hydrant. There is not enough pressure. It is what they call the

clean-out valves, the small slimmer valves that you usually see in most places

at the end of line to clean out a line. Can you explain to me

MR. O'BRIEN: Before I pass it to Cluney, when was that project completed?

MR. JOYCE: About a year ago. I think they are looking for a second phase

this year.

MR. MERCER: Mr. Joyce, the project was an MRIF project that was approved

in 2008. It was approved at $1.7 million. When they got into the detailed design

and you are right, the minimum size of a line to have a normal fire hydrant

that we see around the Confederation Building here is a six-inch line. You can

put a refilling outlet, if you want to call it that, for a pumper truck on a

four-inch line.

When the design for the project was completed, the project was significantly

over budget. The work that has been done so far we have spent $5.4 million. It

started at a $1.7 million project. In order to get water services and water

services is what they primarily needed we have invested significantly more

money than we initially started with.

If we had gone to a full six-inch line, it probably would have ended being a

$7 million project, and probably a project that the community could not afford.

One of the biggest issues we have with small communities like that is that for

domestic flows so household use, in terms of domestic drinking water, requires

only very small lines. When we go to fire protection services, it requires a

much larger line. Many municipalities do not realize that the larger line, in

providing fire services, actually compromises your drinking water quality. That

is why we have a lot of boil water advisories that you mentioned earlier. They

are as a result of stagnant water in large lines whereby chlorine decays and you

get disinfectant by-products formed such as THMs and HAAs and those sorts of

things.

Municipalities have to realize that there is a balance between providing fire

protection with normal fire hydrants and that sort of thing and good-quality

drinking water. You have to weigh that balance and you have to weigh the cost.

That is what was done in this particular case.

MR. JOYCE: I will explain why: It is because probably six months ago

there was a fire and they could not use the fire hydrant. They had to put the

line in the salt water.

MR. MERCER: With a four-inch line, you can put a filler pump on that line

so you can actually fill a pumper truck.

MR. JOYCE: What happened was when the fire was up, they had to fill the

truck. It takes fifteen or twenty seconds to get the water out of the truck.

Then they had to try to fill the truck. By the time they filled the truck, it

was fifteen or twenty minutes to fill the truck. A few people asked me to bring

it up.

You cannot change it now. The water line is in. What the people are realizing

now is that it is not what you call fire protection. You have to fill the truck

and then you have to let the water come out of the truck, and fill the truck

again. It is not your normal fire hydrant.

MR. MERCER: It is not an issue of pressure. It is an issue of volume

within the line. Filling the pumper truck, I would suggest, through a three-inch

hose that is going to come out of the salt water and into the truck is probably

less than the four-inch line that is running in the community.

MR. JOYCE: Not when you can use the pumper. That is not correct, no,

because they actually had to do it. I was there.

MR. MERCER: Unless they are filling the pumper truck with more than a

four-inch line out of the ocean, which I suggest is probably not the case

MR. JOYCE: They are, yes. They are using the regular hose that they would

on a six-inch line. I was told to ask that because it is a concern. There is

nothing you can do about it now.

The other thing about the project in Frenchman's Cove and again, you may be

aware of it is that when the project was done, the phase was completed, the

road through the town was paved in, probably, November.

MR. MERCER: It was in November, yes.

MR. JOYCE: The road is just about gone. It might be a year. I do not even

know if it is a year old. It might be a little over a year old, probably. The

road almost has to be replaced already. From my understanding from

Transportation and Works, they have not signed off on the project because the

road is so bad.

Are you familiar with that? What can be done? That is a big issue now because

there are people down there who have new pavement, with the great project in the

last year, and now have to drive over roads that is tore up. Last summer, it had

to be patched. Within a year, the pavement had to be patched in a lot of places.

MR. MERCER: Yes, I am aware of that. That was a situation whereby there

were three kilometres of asphalt removed. The contractor ended up paving that

stretch of road in late November under very wet conditions. As a result of that,

we think the asphalt has gone through a significant amount of fatigue cracking

and deteriorating really rapidly. We have had a number of discussions, and there

are a number of letters written to the contractor. It is our view that it is a

warranty issue.

When that contract was awarded, it was awarded on the basis of being

completed over two construction seasons. The contractor, through his own devise,

decided to do it all in one season, put himself into the position of having to

pave the road in November as opposed to waiting until the following spring. He

did have that amount of time in his contract to do so. However, one of the big

issues we are facing is our officials in Municipal Affairs had suggested that

we leave the road gravel over the winter; however, it is a Transportation and

Works road, they demanded that the road be paved that fall.

While we can, from one perspective, pin it on the contractor, he did not

really have a lot of choice because Transportation and Works were saying we are

not satisfied to have that road gravel for the winter. So, they put him in the

position of having to pave it.

MR. JOYCE: Is there something going to be done with it? That is what is

being asked me.

MR. MERCER: At this point in time, I think the contractor has agreed to

go in and cut out and replace some of the worst sections that have deteriorated.

MR. JOYCE: It may not be completely redone, the whole three kilometres?

MR. MERCER: It does not look like that, no.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

A last question, Minister, and you can supply this later. Would you ask the

department for the amount of money that was budgeted last year for Capital Works

that was not spent, can you get me a breakdown on that? The amount allocated

last year but is a carry-over for this year.

MR. O'BRIEN: I can tell you that now.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

MR. O'BRIEN: We will be carrying forward from past budgets because there

is a mesh. We have some projects that could go back as far as 2008, 2009, but we

will be carrying forward about $120-odd million in work this year; probably $125

million, $128 million, somewhere in that vicinity. That is all carried forward

but it is not all last year. You cannot break it down that way.

Some of the projects, because of certain issues and complexities, are carried

forward over two and three years, some of them four, so it is hard for us to

break that down for you, Eddie, to be honest with you.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: We will be bringing forward around $125 million, not

counting whatever in regard to this year's commitment authority, there is only

a percentage of that that will actually be done this year because of the nature

of the projects. So, it is always a rolling number because we work on cash flow

more so than we do on commitment authority.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, that is it.

I want to thank everybody for attending, ministers, the officials all

throughout Newfoundland, especially in Corner Brook that I deal with, just to

pass on how grateful and I hate to say it as the critic, but I do see major

improvements in some of the municipal affairs in towns, you can see the drinking

water, as you mentioned, and roads and all of that. As you mentioned, every year

you can see there are changes and always new requests because that is just the

nature.

Thank you very much, and I am sure we can all work together. Sometimes we

will have our disagreements and that is fine, too. That is all part of it. We

are all fighting for our municipalities, but you guys have to take care of a

department and you have rules and regulations. With us, as politicians, we do

not really look at that sometimes.

Thank you all for your assistance over time, and thank the officials on the

West Coast also on my behalf.

MR. O'BRIEN: I would like to thank both of you for your words as well in

regard to my staff. We are always considered to be a big department out in that

world of Newfoundland and Labrador. We are a big department when it comes to

projects and monies, but we are not a big department when it comes to staff.

I should have been able to answer your first question in regard to the number

of staff in Municipal Affairs and Fire and Emergency Services. I knew it

approximately, but we have a small staff, a very efficient staff to do great

work for municipalities. We are here not to stall projects, not at all. We are

here to make sure they get the best value for the people's money for the

municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador and something that is affordable to

the municipalities.

I would like to, as well, commend my staff. I came in with no background in

municipal affairs beforehand. I had never served on a council, but I tell you, I

know municipal affairs now because they stuff that information into me each and

every day. They have been a great help to me as the minister.

It has been a pleasure to be the Minister of Municipal Affairs for this

period of time, however long it is going to last. I would just as soon stay in

here forever.

CHAIR: Thank you, Eddie. Thank you, Minister.

Do we have anything else from our Committee today?

If not, I will ask the Clerk to call the first heading, please.

CLERK: We have passed the first one.

CHAIR: Okay, we have passed the first one.

CLERK: 1.2.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.2.01 carry?

On motion, subhead 1.2.01 carried.

CLERK: 1.2.02.

CHAIR: Shall 1.2.02 carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subhead 1.2.02 carried.

CHAIR: Can we agree to do them inclusively?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Inclusively.

MR. JOYCE: We came in one year. We had a discussion and two left. We

reduced the minister's salary to zero.

CLERK: 1.2.03 to 4.1.06.

CHAIR: Shall 1.2.03 to 4.1.06 inclusive carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 1.2.03 through 4.1.06 carried.

CLERK: The total.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Department of Municipal Affairs, totals heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Municipal

Affairs carried without amendment?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Municipal Affairs carried without

amendment.

CHAIR: Minister, I would like to thank you and your staff this morning

for your time and your briefing. It was very informative. Again, for your

participation this morning, and all of your staff, we thank you so much.

I would like to remind our Social Services Committee that we meet again

tomorrow morning, Thursday, April 26, with the Department of Education.

I want to thank everybody for their time this morning.

Can I have a motion to adjourn, please?

MR. JOYCE: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Joyce.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.

Document details

Collection	Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees
Citation	2012-04-25
Type	committee
Volume / chapter	committees_standingcommittees_socialservices_ga47_2012-04-25-_ssc-municipal_20affairs_.htm
Language	en
Format	html
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6462b4370d4aab6f55955ffc255cb9aa84134ea7

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (html).