Manitoba Hansard — 17 March 2022 (Sitting 25B, 42nd Legislature, 4th Session)

42-4-25b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session – Forty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXVI No. 25B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, March 17, 2022 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-Second Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALTOMARE, Nello Transcona NDP ASAGWARA, Uzoma Union Station NDP BRAR, Diljeet Burrows NDP BUSHIE, Ian Keewatinook NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy Kildonan-River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Roblin PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GORDON, Audrey, Hon.

Southdale PC GUENTER, Josh Borderland PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah, Hon. Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg, Hon. Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek, Hon. Interlake-Gimli PC JOHNSTON, Scott, Hon. Assiniboia PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan, Hon. Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Tyndall Park Lib.

LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas-Kameesak NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Malaya Notre Dame NDP MARTIN, Shannon McPhillips PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC MOSES, Jamie St. Vital NDP NAYLOR, Lisa Wolseley NDP NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle, Hon. Turtle Mountain PC REYES, Jon, Hon. Waverley PC SALA, Adrien St. James NDP SANDHU, Mintu The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron Springfield-Ritchot PC SMITH, Andrew, Hon.

Lagimodière PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Vérendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WASYLIW, Mark Fort Garry NDP WHARTON, Jeff, Hon. Red River North PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC Vacant Fort Whyte Vacant Thompson

819 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, March 17, 2022 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Deputy Speaker (Andrew Micklefield): Good afternoon, everybody. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 29–The Mennonite College Federation Amendment Act Hon. Jon Reyes (Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Immigration): I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice, that Bill 29, The Mennonite College Federation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Fédération des collèges mennonites, be now read for a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Reyes: I am pleased to intro duce Bill 29, The Mennonite College Federation Amendment Act, which includes proposed amendments to The Mennonite College Federation Act and the repeal of The Menno Simons College Incorporation Act. With the passing of this bill, outdated references to this institution's former member colleges, Concord College, Canadian Mennonite Bible College and Menno Simons College, will be removed from the act.

The roles of the Canadian Mennonite University, CMU, council and board of governors will be outlined in the act, which will also be retitled to reflect the name Canadian Mennonite University. A second act, The Menno Simons College Incorporation Act and its require ments are no longer required, giving Canadian Mennonite University cur- rent operational and governing structure. Our re peal of this act will stream line admin istrative pro cesses and reflect the current institutional reality. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 31–The Minor Amendments and Corrections Act, 2022 Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Ed ucation, that Bill 31, The Minor Amendments and Corrections Act, 2022, be now read for a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Goertzen: Mr. Deputy Speaker, this is the much- anticipated and long-awaited, long-standing tradition of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly.

The Minor Amendments and Corrections Act is an annual bill that corrects various typographical, numbering and minor drafting and translation errors identified by the legislative drafters in the Legislative Counsel division. The bill also contains minor amendments that are brought forward to a variety of acts. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 32–The Victims' Bill of Rights Amendment Act Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice an d Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister for Sport, Culture and Heritage, that Bill 32, The Victims' Bill of Rights Amendment Act, be now read for a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Goertzen: This bill brings forward amendments to The Vic tims' Bill of Rights Act that will enhance the discretion to provide support to the families of deceased victims of crime who may otherwise have been ineligible, as well as enshrine the right for free legal counsel for victims in sexual assault criminal cases. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Is there–is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Committee reports? Bill 30–The Police Services Amendment and Law Enforcement Review Amendment Act Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Friesen), that Bill 30, The Police Services Amendment and Law En forcement Review Amendment Act, be now read for a first time. Motion presented.

820 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 Mr. Goertzen: The Police Services Amend ment Act will foster a culture of excellence and enhance police accountability in Manitoba. It establishes the Manitoba Criminal Intelligence Centre, which will work collaboratively with police agencies and other law en forcement related organi zations to pr omote and co-ordinate the sharing of criminal intelligence and analytics while provi ding a solid foundation for effective and innovative intelligence -led policing ef - forts targeting all levels of crime.

The bill also improves police account ability by empowering Manitoba Justice to develop police stan- dards across the province and a uniform code of con- duct for police services throughout Manitoba. It also extends the filing deadline under The Law Enforcement Review Act to 180 days. Finally, it makes the Police Commission respon- sible for monitoring and reporting on police services' compliance and standards esta blished by Manitoba Justice. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Committee reports? Tabling of reports? MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister for– required 90 minutes notice prior to routine proceed- ings was provided in accordance with rule 26(2). Would the honour able minister please proceed with the statement. Holi Festival of Colours Hon. Andrew Smith (Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage): It is my honour and privilege as the Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage, to rise before the House to recognize the Hindu community of Manitoba and to wish e veryone a happy Holi to all those celebrating the festival of colours on March 18th this year.

Holi is an ancient spring celebration that recog - nizes the equality of all people and the triumph of good over evil. On the eve of the festival, bonfires are sometimes lit with rituals that include the addition of wood, dried leaves and twigs to ward off evil. On the day of Holi, people gather to throw bright- ly coloured powder and spray water at one another. Friends, family and strangers participate in this pl ay- ful presentation. This is followed by festive meals and the distribution of sweets to neighbours and friends.

I and many of my colleagues have enjoyed attending Holi celebrations over the years at Dr. Raj Pandey Hindu Centre on St. Anne's Road. In addition to the community and religious events hosted by the Hindu Temple they were also incredibly helpful this summer when they hosted a vaccine pop- up site during the pandemic. Thank you to them for taking the lead on this important initiative. In Manitoba, our cultural diversity is a source of great pride. We are privileged to live in a province that welcomes and celebrates so many cultures.

We have a great community spirit and we regularly demon - strate it as we join together to help our neighbours through difficult times. Mr. Deputy Speaker, today it is more important than ever to support each other as we work through these challenging times. Holi is an opportunity to focus on the positive forces of community and con- nection that make our provi nce such a welcoming place. I invite my colleagues to join us at the Hindu Temple and Dr. Raj Pandey centre tonight at 7 p.m. as Holi will be illuminated at the temple. Thank you and dhanwad. [Thank you.] Mr.

Diljeet Brar (Burrows): Sat Sri Akal [Truth is God] and namaskar [I bow to you] to all. In my child hood in Punjab, Holi and Hola Mohalla marked the end of winter and the beginning of spring. I have fond memories of watching people throw colourful powders on one another and art being drawn on the walls of houses up and down the street. * (13:40) Together, the words Hola Mohalla stand for mock fight. This annual festival held at Anandpur Sahib in Punjab and now replicated at other gurdwaras world- wide was started by tenth Sikh guru, city Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

It reminds the people of valour and defence, a timely discussion as the world watches the people of Ukraine defend their homeland. Holi is not only a religious festival for people of East Indian heritage, but it is also a cultural festival. It helps bring together neighbourhoods and villages that can be otherwise divided across socioeconomic lines. The festival of Holi should remind Manitobans of the sort of egalitarian society that has been absent during the time of the Pallister and Stefanson govern- ments, which has cut social programs for those who need our help the most.

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 821 In contrast, I would like to take this oppor tunity on behalf of my colleagues, to reaffirm our commit - ment to the type of society we want to see during Holi and always; one in which every Manitoban is treated with care and in which everyone can live in com mu- nities that work, as is the NDP's motto for all of us. Shukriya [Thank you], Mr. Deputy Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I ask for leave to respond to the minister's statement. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Is there leave for the hon our- able member for River Heights to respond to the minister's statement? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I join other MLAs in recognizing Holi, the festival of colours. It's a festival celebrated each spring across all of India. It's a festival which features bold, beautiful and vibrant colours. Where we live, in Winnipeg, our land is still white with snow, the dark brown and black trunks and branches of trees stand stark and alone, without leaves.

We need and we welcome this festival because it is a harbinger of spring, a promise that it won't be long before the colours can break through in the flowers which will grow in our yards and publi c spaces, in - cluding in front of our Legislature, and the blossoms and leaves which will adorn the lilac, oak, elm, maple, ash, hazel and so many other trees. This year, the winter has been particularly cold and long and, more than ever, we yearn for the colours that are to come and will come during Holi.

It is in part because Manitobans are a people of many backgrounds and many colours that we are for- tunate to celebrate occasions like Holi, when we can see by the drips of water coming off our roofs and the beginning of the shrinking of piles of snow that spring and renewal is coming; that we, too, are part of this great festival of Holi and we can join our friends and relatives who have come from India in splashing colours all over our lives, and this ye ar, more than ever, the colours of yellow and blue as we also think of another place in the world which also needs our attention. Thank you.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Jose Tomas Hon. Jon Reyes (Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Immigration): Today, I have the great pleasure of delivering a private member's statement honouring Waverley constituent and my good friend, Mr. Jose Tomas. For the past several years, Jose has been com - mitted to serving his community. As someone who made the journey to immigrate to Canada almost 50 years ago, he understands the hardships that many newcomers face. Volunteering is in his blood.

His impressive resume includes serving on as a board member of the Folklorama council in the past for the Filipino Pavilion, and one of the pioneers of the Philippine Association of Manitoba. Jose has also served as the first chairman of the Philippine Basketball Association in the 1970s, and spent time volunteering at the Philippine Canadian Centre of Manitoba. He has spent thousands of hours volunteering in the Filipino community and helping new Manitobans from the Philippines start their new journey here in our wonderful province of Manitoba. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in my ongoing conversa - tions with Jose, he was very pleased to hear a bout Bill 205, The Filipino Heritage Month Act, and he expressed his dissatisfaction with the NDP and the opposition members, especially the honourable member from Notre Dame, for not working collabora- tively while stalling and taking a partisan approach to the passing of the bill that will acknowledge and celebrate the proud Filipino culture and celebrate– [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Reyes: –the leaders from the Filipino com mu- nity, including the family members of the honourable member–[interjection] Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Reyes: –for Notre Dame (MLA Marcelino). Mr. Deputy Speaker, I ask my colleagues to join me in honouring Mr. Jose Tomas–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Reyes: –for his positive work in the com munity and for all of the lives he has touched and continue to touch through the–his love–[interjection]

822 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Reyes: –for–his love for service. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Lifting of Pesticide Ban Ms. Lisa Naylor (Wolseley): Wolseley is known for our gardens. Whether growing vegetables or beautiful flowers, prairie grasses or gardens designed to support butterflies, bees and other pollinators, our community makes the most of its small yards and even works to beautify the boulevards. We are a community that values nature and green spaces.

We also value clean air, clean water and keeping our planet habitable for our children and grandchildren. In 2014, under the NDP government, pesticides were restricted from non -essential use, such as on lawns and boulevards where children and pets play. Other provinces have since followed suit.

This legislation was applauded by groups such as the Canadian Cancer Society, the David Suzuki Foundation, the Canadian Association of Phys icians for the Environment, the Ontario College of Family Physicians and it was also supported by local groups such as the coalition of concerned mothers of Manitoba, the Green Action Centre, the Manitoba Lung Association, the Social Planning Council and the Humane Society to name a few. Restrictions on pesticides are required to protect vulnerable populations and community residents from serious health risks associated with exposure to these chemicals.

Research shows that those most at risk are pregnant p eople, infants, children and anyone with chemical sensitivities. The range of potential harmful effects includes adverse reproductive, neurological and respiratory outcomes. Pets and pollinating insects can be harmed through close contact with pesticides. Many people have already reached out with their concerns about the PC government rolling back legislation that what was once a positive step forward for the environment and the health of Manitobans.

Today, I stand on behalf of Wolseley constituents and all Manitobans who are concerned about their children's health and the environment and ask the gov- ernment to reconsider their proposed changes to The Environment Act that would support a wider use of pesticides. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Elder Dr. Dave Courchene Jr. Mr. Ian Bushie (Keewatinook): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise today to share a few words for Elder Dr. Dave Courchene Jr. Elder Courchene was born in the Sagkeeng Anishinabe nation. Growing up, his mother taught him by example how we should all live our lives.

She taught Dave that when you give something from your heart, it is

an act of kindness and is rewarded spirit - ually by the Creator. In 1967 while still in high school, Elder Courchene was part of a group of 10 runners, young Indigenous men, asked to run the flame from Minneapolis to Winnipeg to open the Pan American Games. This group became known as the FrontRunners. The frontrunner in Anishinabe culture has always been a messenger of the people. In Anishinabe under- standing, the sac red fire is a doorway to the spirit world. Elder Courchene's journey as a frontrunner began a spiritual journey that would span the rest of his life.

He would learn that the fire he was carry - ing held a message of the Seven Sacred Laws, values long held by the Anishinabe that provide a foundation for all to live by. In learning about the true power and meaning of the sacred fire, Elder Courchene would even tu- ally travel around the world lighting sacred fires and sharing ancestral teachings and messages . In Anishinabe culture, visions and dreams have always offered guidance in life. Elder Courchene has always believed in follow - ing his vision and his dreams.

Fasting many times on the land, Elder Courchene received a vision of a turtle lodge and a village of peace. At the heart of the village was a lodge in the shape of a turtle. Surrounding the turtle lodge were four smaller turtle lodges in each of the four directions. Through the vision, the elders interpreted that hu- manity had been given the gift of a lodge of truth, which would bring healing, unity and peace to all nations and a deeper relationship with mother earth.

The turtle was seen as a symbol of truth and the central lodge symbolized the urgency for all peoples to come together in the center of Turtle Island. The four smaller lodges represented the balance of life. In 2002 the work began. The turtle lodge official- ly opened with a ceremony in the spring of 2003. The turtle lodge is founded upon spiritual land- based

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 823 teachings that bring balanc e to life with the funda - mental goal and vision of Mino- Pi-Mati-Si-Win, translated to mean a good, peaceful way of life. It is about seeing, listening, feeling, speaking and acting from the heart. The guidance and direction of spirit are the pillars of the vision and work of Elder Dr. Dave Courchene Jr. and the turtle lodge Mr. Deputy Speaker, I ask for leave for a moment of silence to pay tribute to the life and contributions of Elder Dr.

Dave Courchene Jr., traditionally known as Nitamabit Nii Gaani Aki Inini, translated to be the original way and the one who sits in front leading earth man. Miigwech Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there leave for a moment of silence? [Agreed] A moment of silence was observed. * (13:50) Tribute to Health-Care and Social Workers Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to pay tribute to the incredible efforts health-care and social workers have made in Manitoba during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Health-care aides, nurses, doctors, respiratory therapists, o ccupational therapists, physiotherapists, psychologists, laboratory technicians and those in many other allied health professions: we thank you. We know that some of you are feeling exhausted, overworked and tired, in part from often being man- dated to work a double shift when you came to work only one. We know that working conditions in health care in Manitoba are often far from ideal. Dr.

Jillian Horton, a Winnipeg physician, described this when she said, and I quote: I work in a place where I can't compensate for chaos; where there are holes in the plaster wall in patient rooms; where people in stretchers are often parked out in front of the nursing desk, the way you might leave an idling car; where monitors beep, alarms sound, call bells ring, patients holler and families line the hallways and sob; where there is no order, only ongoing pandemonium, constant chaos. End of quote.

We know, in spite of this, that you've done every- thing you could to make life better for those who have come for help. We know much of the difficulties, the mandating and the long hours are the result of the poor way in which the Conservative government has managed our precious health-care system, and also a reflection of the lack of attention to critical issues dating back to the years under the NDP. And yet, you have stepped up in spite of this, and you have done outstanding work for all Manitobans. We thank you, with all our hearts, for the efforts you have made. Merci. Miigwech. CFAM Radio 950 Mr.

Josh Guenter (Borderland): Mr. Speaker, 65 years ago, at 8:01 p.m. on March 13th, 1957, a local radio station in my constituency, CFAM Radio 950, began broadcasting for the first time on the AM dial. At its start, CFAM was housed in a small studio in Altona and employed a staff of 11 people to serve the community, then numbering 1,800 residents. Over 65 years, what started as a small local radio station in Altona has grown to become the largest independent radio broadcaster in Canada, a company we know as Golden West Broadcasting.

Today, Golden West operates more than 40 radio stations and draws nearly 100 million users to its online local news sites each year, such as Pembina Valley Online, which serves as an online hub for local news and information for residents in my area. Golden West employs hundreds of people and, Mr. Speaker, I am proud to have been one of them. My first job was as a part -time on-air announcer for two of CFAM's sister stations: The Eagle 93.5 and CKMW 1570, now Country 88.9 FM.

I will always have fond memories of my time with Golden West, to work with the personalities we hear on the air today and to be part of a company that cares deeply about the communities it serves. While much has changed in 65 years, one con- stant in the company has been i ts long -time CEO, Elmer Hildebrand, who was with the –with CFAM since the very beginning and helped the company grow to become the success story that is today. To mark this special occasion, a celebration was held in Altona at Golden West last Friday, and it was a distinct pleasure to join Elmer Hildebrand, our Premier (Mrs.

Stefanson) and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Friesen), my colleague from Morden- Winkler, for a special live broadcast of CFAM 950's morning show.

824 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 Mr. Speaker, I wish to extend my warm est con- gratulations to Elmer Hildebrand, Golden West and the crew at CFAM 950 on reaching this significant milestone. Thank you. ORAL QUESTIONS Company Transferring ICU Patients Equipment and Staff Training Concerns Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Off icial Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Krystal Mousseau's life mattered. She is dearly missed by her family, friends and her children. Now, Manitobans want there to be answers for the events that led to her death. We need an inquiry.

That's because there are serious unanswered ques - tions. Questions about the lack of properly trained staff. Questions about the lack of equipment used by the company that transported her. Questions about informal guidelines for moving patients out of ICU to other provinces. I ask the Premier: When did she first learn of a lack of equipment and training with the company that transported Krystal Mousseau? Hon.

Heather Stefanson (Premier): Certainly, the floor of the Legislature is not ap propriate to discuss individual people's personal health infor mation, but when it comes to this, I've already stated to the member opposite it's doctors that make the decisions with respect to patient transfers, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Chief Medical Examiner makes decisions around calling inquests. And of course, I think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we need to allow those professionals who are in those areas to do their job, and that's certainly–we have tre- mendous respect for the work that they do.

They make difficult decisions on a daily basis. We thank them for what they do, but we need to let the profes - sionals do their jobs. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: I'll table the letter from Prairie Mountain Health that describes the outcome of the critical in - cident investigation. I'll point out that at the top of that letter there is a reference to

section 4.1 of The Regional Health Authorities Act. Now, that part of the act states that the Health Minister can do anything to ensure the functioning of the health- care system, including access–accessing the information within that letter. To put a fine point on it, the current and former Health ministers, as well as the Premier, have had access to this information the entire time–Premier had access to this information the entire time.

Will the Premier tell Manitobans when she first learned of the concerns around a lack of proper equip- ment and training in the care for Krystal Mousseau when she was moved from the Brandon intensive-care unit? Mrs. Stefanson: You know, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for finally tabling the letter that we have been asking for for days, Mr. Deputy Speaker. What I will say to the Leader of the Op position, again, these are decisions that are made by doctors, in terms of transferring patients. When it comes to inquests that look into systemic problems, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, those decisions are made by the Chief Medical Examiner. We continue to rely on those professiona ls to do their job. Mr. Kinew: The decision to hire a company to move ICU patients out of province was a decision taken by the government. The decision on whether or not to call an inquiry is a decision taken by the Premier. There are serious unanswered questions about the events that led to the death of Krystal Mousseau. Now, we do not know why the company hired to move her lacked properly trained staff and lacked the proper equipment. The Premier was, however, Health minister at the time.

Now, a re asonable person, most Manitobans looking at the facts would believe that the Health minister would want to know what went wrong in the events leading up to Krystal's death. So I ask the Premier again: When did she first learn of a lack of equip ment an d training with the company that transported Krystal Mousseau from Brandon's intensive-care unit? Mrs. Stefanson: Of course, the choice, or the deci - sion, to outsource various things in the com munity with respect to health care comes from systems leaders, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

They do not come from the Minister of Health's office, they do not come from politicians–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Order, please.

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 825 The hon ourable First Minister. [interjection] Order, please. Mrs. Stefanson: I just said that the decisions that are made are made by Shared Health, they're made by other systems' leaders, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Those are not decisions that are made by politicians. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Death of Krystal Mousseau Request to Call Inquiry Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Last May–[interjection]–last May our hospitals and intensive-care units were overwhelmed.

We did not have the capacity to take care of the sickest people in our province. Government then sent patients out of our ICUs to other jurisdictions. One of those patients, Krystal Mousseau, died on May 25th, 2021, after a failed attempt to transport her out of province. We have detailed a few of the unanswered questions about the events leading up to her death. Our calls for an inquest have been de nied. So, therefore, we are asking for an inquiry, which the Premier has the ability to do today. * (14:00) Will the Premier listen to that call? Will she call an inquiry into the death of Krystal Mousseau today?

Hon. Heather Stefanson (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the purpose of an inquest, which is decided by the Chief Medical Examiner, is to deal with deter- mining the caus e of death, but also to identify sys - temic failings. The Chief Medical Examiner said that there are no grounds for the calling of an inquest in this case. Of course, that was a letter from the Chief Medical Examiner with respect to this individual case. Inquiries are also called to deter mine systemic issues.

We have from the Chief Medical Examiner that there is no grounds for calling the inquest because he didn't believe that there were systemic issues involved. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Just before I recog nize the honourable Leader of the Official Op position, I mis- spoke in terms of the question order. This is now the supplementary on the honour able member's second question. Mr. Kinew: Yes, an inquiry is a separate process from an inquest. It's one that the Premier has the ability to initiate today, and she should do so based on the serious systemic failures that we have outlined.

Namely, that Krystal Mousseau was transported by a company that didn't have the right equipment or the right training among their staff to take care of her. The systemic failure being, of course, that a gov ern- ment in Manitoba would hire a company without ensuring that those standards have been met. Accountability in this instance is im portant, and accountability can be arrived at through calling an inquiry. The outstanding question is: What standards were put in place, what due diligence was conducted and who ought to be held accountable?

Will the Premier answer these questions or, at the very least call an inqu iry today so we can have a process to give Manitobans the truth? Mrs. Stefanson: The Leader of the Opposition knows that decisions to transfer patients is –are made by doctors, Mr. Deputy Speaker, not by politicians. And again, when it comes to inquest s, those decisions are made by the Chief Medical Examiner. Those are the professionals who make those deci - sions, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I just indicated that the reason for inquests, part of that is to deter mine whether or not there are sys - temic issues .

The Chief Medical Examiner didn't believe that there was grounds to call for an inquest based on that. And, of course, we know that inquiries are also about systemic issues. The Chief Medical Examiner determined that there were no systemic issues, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and therefore there was no need to call for an inquest into that, which is around systemic issues. Again, we will take the advice from professionals, not from the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr.

Kinew: Manitobans deserve to know if there will be answers, and they deserve to know if there will be accountability. They deserve to know if an in depen- dent investigation and adjudication of the facts will take place. We have put the facts on the record. A lack of proper training and equipment con tributed to Ms. Mousseau's death. This is a systemic failure. That's why we've asked the Chief Medical Examiner to reconsider his decision.

826 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 But as we wait for that response, we ask the Premier today to call an inquiry. An inquiry is a separate process which the Premier can initiate right now. Will she? Will the Premier call an inquiry into the death of Krystal Mousseau today–an inquiry? Mrs. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition seems to be saying that there are systemic issues. I would like to see if he–you could table the proof of that, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, because what we do have before us is a letter from the Chief Medical Examiner that indicates very clearly that there was no grounds to call for an inquest based on those issues. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, again, I will take the advice of the Chief Medical Examiner –the profes- sional in this–not the Leader of the Opposition. WPS Headquarters Scandal Request for Public Inquiry Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): The Manitoba court of queen's 'brench' ruled the former Winnipeg CAO accepted a bribe and breached his duty on the police headquarters construction project.

That pro - ject was $100 million over budget. The mayor of Winnipeg called it one of the biggest scandals in the city's history. But just like Brian Pallister, Premier–the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson), pardon me, has refused, for no good reason, to get to the bottom of all of this. Will the Premier stop copying Brian Pallister's playbook and call an inquiry into the– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The member's time has expired. Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): There's no question that the issue that is raised and the matters that have come to light from the civil litigation are serious matters, and no one would dispute that. There are still several litigants – dozens of litigants, I believe, that are still before the civil procedure. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the member opposite knows, whether it was the Phoenix Sinclair inquiry or Brian Sinclair inquiry that were called under the NDP, that matters before the courts should not be matters of inquiry. But there's no question that it is a s erious issue. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honour able member for St. Johns, on a supplementary question. Ms. Fontaine: Just like Brian Pallister, the Premier won't call an inquiry into the police headquarters scan- dal. Their latest excuses are just plain wrong, Deputy Speaker. An inquiry would help get answers. It can com - pel individuals, including former elected officials, to testify on the public record. That's account ability. There's nothing stopping the Premier from calling an inquiry except that–her commitment to be like Brian Pallister. Will she call an inquiry today? Mr.

Goertzen: The member might remember the Phoenix Sinclair inquiry was put on hold because a court case was actually launched, Mr. Deputy Speaker. So, of course, the NDP government also saw the importance of not holding inquiries during court cases. There are dozens of litigants who are still before a civil litigation. I know the members opposite don't want to understand that we need to be careful in terms of how examinations 'happo'–happen. As there's a court case that is currently underway, it should not be considered for an inquiry, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honour able member for St.

Johns, on a final supplementary. Ms. Fontaine: The former Winnipeg CEO–CAO took a $300,000 bribe on a project that went over $100 million over its budget. Manitobans deserve answers. They don't need fake excuses like we're seeing here today. There's nothing stopping the Premier from calling in a 'quiry'. A public inquiry compels individuals, even former elected officials, to testify in public. That's account - ability, Deputy Speaker. The Premier should stop hiding behind fake excuses. Will the Premier call a public inquiry today? Mr. Goertzen: Quite apart from the 'precedences' that I've already cited, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that existed under the NDP gov ernment, it is also worth noting that under the civil litigation and civil disclosure, there is a full raft of information that is provided through a

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 827 civil litigation; it has to be provided through dis - closure. So the information is well known. It is public, and citizens, of course, can make decisions on it. Everyone is concerned about what they've learned regarding the civil litigation, but the infor mation is fully disclosed through the civil litigation process. I'm not sure what the member opposite feels would be learned beyond the civil litigation exposure. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Order, please.

Surgical and Diagnostic Services Timeline to Clear Backlog MLA Uzoma Asagwara (Union Station): Mr. Deputy Speaker, highway medicine hasn't stopped under this Premier (Mrs. Stefanson). In fact, it's gotten worse than it was in–under Brian Pallister. * (14:10) The only solution we've heard from this gov ern- ment is sending patients down the highway to North Dakota, which failed. And since then, they've done nothing to help the over 160,000 Manitobans who are waiting in pain. People are wondering how much longer they're going to have to wait.

So, will the minister act today and will she set a deadline to clear the surgical and diagnostic backlog? Hon. Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): I thank the member from Union Station for the question. The patient transfer protocol, which we have stated many times in this Chamber has been in place for decades now, prior to the COVID -19 pandemic and while they were in office. And it's im portant to remember that decisions that are being made about transfer are being made by clinicians in the system.

And I also want to remind the NDP that, over the period of 1999 to 2022, 213 patients were referred to Grand Forks. And during the period of 2001 to 2003, 13 patients under their manage ment were referred to Thunder Bay. What do they have against No rth Dakota now, Mr. Deputy Speaker? Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Union Station, with a supplementary question. MLA Asagwara: Mr. Deputy Speaker, this gov ern- ment keeps making empty promises and is full of nothing but excuses. They haven't come out with any ideas or investments to address the growing surgical backlog here in Manitoba.

Their record says it all: their plan for highway medicine, to send spinal patients to North Dakota, failed. The PCs are still doing fewer surgeries and Manitobans are waiting even longer for those pro- cedures. And now the wait -list has grown to over 160,000 Manitobans waiting for life -saving surgery and diagnostics. Will the minister tell Manitobans waiting when the backlog will be cleared, and will she do that finally today? Ms. Gordon: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I'm pleased to rise to thank our health-care workers and all the clinicians in the system that have been working so hard over the fourth wave and the three previous waves to ensure Manitobans receive the surgeries and diagnostic care that they need. And I'm pleased to share that Health Sciences Centre has increased their surgical slates from seven to 10 to 12 to 13. Concordia Hospital has been running at full capacity for several weeks. All cardiac slates at St. Boniface general hospital have been running since the end of January. Brandon has been restored. Carman has been restored.

And we'll have more updates on the surgical and diagnostic backlog very soon, so stay tuned. Mr. Deputy Speaker: T he honourable member for Union Station, with a final supplementary. MLA Asagwara: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the minister misleads the House on provi ding Manitobans with information, and any update we get is just another broken promise. The wait-list continues to go up and up. Fewer surgeries are being done each month while the wait - list continues to grow. Action is needed now to actually start addressing this backlog. Manitobans deserve a straight answer.

When can they expect to hear a date on when the su rgical and diagnostic backlog is going to be cleared in Manitoba? It's a simple question, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so I'll repeat it: What date will the surgical backlog finally be cleared? Ms. Gordon: What the member for Union Station does not know is that Manitobans want to know when they will be receiving their diag nostic tests and their surgeries, and that is why I can report that CT scans have–[interjection]

828 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Gordon: –improved 12 per cent; ultrasounds, 16 per cent; MRIs, 13 per cent. And I encourage the member from Union Station to take a look at the report that went live on the Diagnostic and Surgical Recovery Task Force website updating on gynecological surgeries, colon cancer screening, anesthesia, clinical assist ance, spinal sur - geries and more, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Ukrainian Students Support Services Mr. Jamie Moses (St. Vital): Mr. Deputy Speaker, many post-secondary students are coming to the end of their studies this month.

Students are studying here from Ukraine, and they are facing uncertainty. Student visas for Ukrainian students will expire. Manitoba could do more to support them. To do that, this gov ernment needs to greatly increase sup - ports to ensure nominees are processed as soon as possible. There's not enough people to evaluate the current applications. Will this minister and Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) commit staff dollars so Ukrainian students can stay in Manitoba? Hon.

Jon Reyes (Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Immigration): Again, I'd like to thank my department for processing a record number of nomin- ations last year, a record number of 6,300 Manitoba Provincial Nominee applications, a program that we created back in 1998. Madam Speaker, we'll continue to work closely with the federal gov ernment and immigration and refugee and citizenship Canada to implement recently announced special measures for Ukrainian citizens, and we'll work with post -secondary education in sti- tutions, as well, to help with students. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: I'm just going to repeat my comment this morning that I am not Madam Speaker. Ukrainian Canadian Congress Funding for Resettlement Services Mr. Jamie Moses (St. Vital): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Province needs to quickly staff up the nominee program for Ukrainian students. For those approved, there just aren't enough settlement services. We need help to permanently settle, and –to permanently settle here with the sup - ports they need. They need help getting a job. They need help settling here permanently.

We're asking the Stefanson government for a sub stantial commitment to increase resettlement services. But will this happen imme diately? I ask the minister and Premier, today, to make an an nounce- ment for Ukrainian resettlement services through the Ukrainian Canadian Congress today. Hon. Jon Reyes (Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Immigration): Attracting and retaining new immigrants, inter national students, refugees, is key to Manitoba's post-pandemic recovery.

Early this year, our gov ernment launched the new $2- million newcomer community connections stream application intake to support and deliver–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Reyes: –new com munity support projects for newcomers to succeed in Manitoba–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Reyes: –and, as well, over $3 million to Manitoba Start and SEED organizations. We'll continue to help new comers to ensure that they have a safe haven here in the province of Manitoba. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I'd just like to repeat my earlier admonition that I'm not Madam Speaker.

The honourable member for St. Vital, on a final supplementary. Ukrainian Students Support Services Mr. Jamie Mose s (St. Vital): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Manitoba should do so much more to help Ukrainians who are waiting to come to Manitoba. For students in Ukraine we can prioritize recog - nition of their credentials. We could also help these students with their costs. We need to do everything we can to make it easier for Ukrainians and students in Ukraine to come to Manitoba. Will the minister and will the Premier provide assistance for students in Ukraine today? Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister for– [interjection]–hang on, I have to recognize you first.

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 829 The honourable Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Immigration. Hon. Jon Reyes (Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Immigration): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to thank the member for the question. I don't know if he's aware, if he's gone to the immigratemanitoba.com website, where it actually has information there on Ukrainian special measures, because we know that Ukrainian citizens, including students, cannot go to the respective embassies. As well, I don't know if he's aware of the manitoba4ukraine.ca website.

It actually has, how can I help, community organizations, helpful links, for all members of the House to pass on. I want to thank the departments, in particular the Minister for Transpor tation and Infra structure, for putting this together and working together so we–that we can help Ukrainian citizens, including students coming to Manitoba. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Order. We've tried. * (14:20) Northern Health Care Need for Services MLA Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): Mr. Acting Deputy Speaker, health care is falling apart in the North.

Here's how the region describes things: Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids are very fragile from a staffing perspective. At Gillam, gaps in service plague the site. Nursing and health-care aide gaps are becoming more frequent. These words are in the region's own report. They confirm that these sites are on the edge of collapse. Northern health care is clearly in crisis. Will the minister admit there's a crisis and act today? Hon. Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): I thank the member opposite for the question.

We, as a government, are committed to ensuring Manitobans acros s the province receive equitable access to health -care services, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have had the opportunity to speak many times with the regional health authority, and that is why I've com- mitted to having a health system sus tainability meet- ing with many stakeholders across the North in May, to have discussions about solutions to ensuring indivi- duals in remote and northern communities receive the care that they need. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon, with a supplementary question. MLA Lindsey: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, northern health care is falling apart. Mothers can no longer give birth in Flin Flon, and the sites at Thompson and The Pas are in a very fragile state. And gynecological wait -list in Thompson re - mains a concern. These are the region –health region's own words, their words in their own report: very fragile state for all remaining sites for childbirth in northern Manitoba. Manitoba is in crisis in the North for health care. Will this minister admit there is a crisis and act immediately? Ms. Gordon: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, what I will admit is that this gov ernment–members on this side of the House–are committed to ensuring that Manitobans in the northern portion of our province receive the health-care services that they need. That is why in Budget 2021–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Gordon: –our gov ernment has committed $812 million, the largest single health -care commit- ment in Manitoba's history, to improve rural and northern health ca re, and a signi ficant portion of – [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms.

Gordon: –that–those funds will be used in the creation of a new intermediate health -care hub in northern Manitoba. And I invite the member opposite to join me in that stakeholder meeting in May to work on solutions. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon, on a final supplementary. MLA Lindsey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Gillam, Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapids struggle to remain open. Obstetrics in the North is in a ver y fragile state, and the North's ability to perform surgeries and procedures is in decline. Wait times for endoscopies in northern Manitoba saw an 88 per cent increase in wait times.

This is health care in crisis.

830 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 Will this minister admit to the crisis this gov ern- ment has created and give the North the support it needs today to get out of crisis? Ms. Gordon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, our government's commitment of $812 million will help to build and expand 38 health-care facilities across rural and north- ern Manitoba, improve access, quality and reliability of care; reduce our wait times; increase our nursing staff; improve diagnostics, emergency medical ser - vices, patient transport; create new hospital beds and personal-care-home beds.

I've done so many announcements; I think 15 in total. I didn't see the member–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Gordon: –opposite at any of those announce - ments, but I do invite–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Gordon: –him to join us at the northern health- care sus tainability meeting in May, Mr. Deputy Speaker. WPS Headquarters Scandal Request for Public Inquiry Mr. Dougald Lamont (St.

Boniface): The former chief administrative officer of the City of Winnipeg has been found in a civil suit to have accepted a bribe to award a contract worth $137 million to a company to build our police headquarters. The mayor of Winnipeg has been asking for a public inquiry into these land deals for five years. We asked–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Lamont: –for it in 2019. But all we've heard is excuses and foot dragging and the excuse that because the NDP didn't call inquiries either, it's okay for the PCs to. Either this government believes in law and order or it doesn't.

Eit her it believes in holding people to account or it doesn't. A criminal investi gation and civil lawsuits are not legitimate excuses, and we can only get answers that an inquiry will provide. Why is this gov ernment making up excuses for refusing to call an inquiry into a proven case of bribery on a $200 million– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The member's time has expired. Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Quite apart from what would be learned that isn't–already been disclosed th rough the civil litigation disclosure procedure, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I'd quote Judge Marc Monnin, who, in speaking about the Phoenix Sinclair inquiry, said: I recognize that by granting your request for a stated case, the public hearings which have been com - menced will have to be adjourned until after a deci - sion. That is regrettable, but in my view necessary. That is the words of a judge, not the leader of the third or fourth or whatever party he is, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for St. Boniface, on a supplementary question. Mr. Lamont: Mr. Deputy Speaker, this scandal has been dragging–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

Mr. Lamont: –on for a decade. Winnipeg taxpayers got soaked. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Lamont: The Canada Post property was never valued. The company that–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Thank you. Mr. Lamont: As I said, the scandal has been dragging on for a decade. Winnipeg taxpayers got soaked. The Canada property–post property was never valued. The company that won the contract never applied for it.

The only way we're going to get to the bottom of this is make sure is–everyone who was responsible is held to account, is if people can be called as witn esses to testify under oath. The Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) just has to make an indication that an inquiry will be called. We have an obligation to the people who elect us and who have been hurt by this. It's bad for taxpayers and it's a stain on our reputation as a province. The PCs talk all the time about cleaning up the mess the NDP left them ; will the Premier commit to cleaning up this mess, starting with a public inquiry? Mr.

Goertzen: Nobody questions the seriousness of this issue or the findings f rom the civil litigation. There are several litigants –dozens of litigants, I believe, who are still going through civil litigation.

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 831 I quoted the judge previously, and I'll quote it again. This is in relation to the Phoenix Sinclair in - quiry: I recognize that by granting the request for a stated case, the public hearings, which have com - menced, will have to be adjourned until after a decision. That is regrettable, but in my view necessary. That is a judge, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The member opposite can r aise politics all he wants. We know it's a serious issue. We will follow of the law, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Increase in ER Wait Times Request for Reduction Plan Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Deputy Speaker, on October 2017, the Conservatives began implementing hospital transformation to reduce pa - tient wait times. Then the longest wait most patients could expect at the Health Sciences Centre emergency room was 3.6 hours. The plan was to dramatically reduce wait times, but instead it dramaticall y lengthened them. By January last year, 2021, the wait time had increased to 6.4 hours and this January to 9.5 hours. Similar increases have occurred at Grace and St. Boniface emergency rooms. Wait times are going in the wrong direction.

What adjustments are the government making to address the dismal failure of its efforts during the last five years? Mr. Deputy Speaker: The member's time has expired. Hon. Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): Deputy Speaker, NDP, members opposite: staffing shortages and the highest wait times in the country is the reason why our gov ernment undertook system -wide health- care transformation. The member for River Heights is forgetting that we have just gone through, as a province, a very dif - ficult time, two years–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Ms. Gordon: –of a pandemic. He's forgotten that.

Maybe that's a good thing. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Gordon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Manitobans can recover from the pandemic. We will do it in a com - passionate and under standing way. We will lead – [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Ms. Gordon: –the province into a brighter and more prosperous future, and I invite the member from River Heights to join us in that future. * (14:30) Access to French-Language Education Registration Rate Increase Ms.

Janice Morley -Lecomte (Seine River): Le Manitoba a des grands communautés Francophones diversifiés, l'un des plus important de l'ouest Canadien. L'accès a l'éducation dans l'une ou l'aut re langue officielle est d'un importance vital. Pour cette raison, que fait le ministre pour élargir cet accès? Translation Manitoba has great and diversified Francophone communities, among the largest in western Canada. Access to education in both official languages is vital. For this reason, what has the minister done to develop access? Hon.

Rochelle Squires (Minister responsible for Francophone Affairs): Je tiens à remercier mon collègue pour la question. Je suis fière de partager que les taux d'inscriptions sont en hausse pour les programmes d'immersion française et la Division scolaire franco -manitobaine. Chacun a vue le taux d'inscription augmenter d'environ 15 pour cent au cours des six dernières années. Cette demande des parents nous incite à nous associer récemment à l'Université de Saint -Boniface pour accroître leur capacité d'éduquer les enseignants français et bilingues. Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Président.

Translation I'd like to thank my colleague for the question. I'm proud to share that registration rates are up for French immersion programs and in the Division scolaire franco- manitobaine. They both have seen registration rates increase by approximately 15 per cent during the past six years. This demand from parents has encouraged us to recently associate

832 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 with the Univer sity of St. Boniface to increase their capacity to educate French and bilingual teachers. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. New RCMP Collective Agreement Provincial Funding for Municipalities Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): Mr. Deputy Speaker, as municipalities are preparing their budgets for the coming year, they're stretching their resources thin. They've told us their concerns about this year's upcoming budget. More than half believe it could take years to fin ancially recover from the economic damage brought on by the pandemic.

In this environ- ment, a 23 per cent increase to their policing costs is unbearable. Will the Minister for Municipal Relations come to the table with needed supports to negotiate with municipalities today? Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The issue of the negotiated agreement with the RCMP, that was negotiated by the federal government without provincial input, is some- thing that prov incial justice ministers across Canada are concerned about.

It is something that I have and I know that the previous minister of Justice raised with Minister Lametti federally about those concerns about the contract negotiations that we were not a part of. We believe, of course, that RCMP should be paid fairly, but we also believe that the costs that are borne by municipalities should be recognized by the federal government, who negotiated the contract. Mr. Wiebe: Let's be clear, Mr. Deputy Speaker: 19 municipalities pay their bills for policing through the Province, not to the federal gov ernment.

They're looking for the –this gov ernment to show some leadership on this issue. Back pay for the RCMP is owed to 2017 and costs are going up 23 per cent. I know the Association of Manitoba Municipalities is waiting for this minister of municipal affairs to stand up and answer a question. So I ask again: Will the minister stand up and come to the table with additional funding for munici- palities in this province? Hon. Eileen Clarke (Minister of Municipal Relations): I'm happy to take a question from the member opposite.

However, it doesn't have to be asked with aggression, because having dealt with municipalities for many, many years, that's not a tone that I'm typical to hearing on munici pal issues, whether it's good, bad or otherwise. And I really appreciate being back in this role, and I've had several meetings with AMM, with other municipalities, and there's a great number of issues to work with. And the member's issue on policing is being looked at. We're getting it done. Thank you. Mr. Wiebe: Us–the Association of Manitoba Munici- palities is listening and waiting for this minister to come to the table with a solution.

Nineteen municipalities are receiving that bill directly from the Province. It is her role and this government's role to step up. That 23 per cent increase to policing costs has been a shock, but more im por- tantly, it's unaffordable and it risks the program ming in those municipalities. Will the minister commit today to come to the table, to negotiate and to work through this budget shortfall with municipalities today? Ms. Clarke: I will once again assure the member opposite, AMM members, as well as other munici- palities that are dealing with policing costs, are at the table.

We are discussing and we will continue to get the job done. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The time for questions has ended. PETITIONS Abortion Services MLA Uzoma Asagwara (Union Station): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. To the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba: The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) Manitoba women, girls, two -spirit, genderqueer, non-binary and trans persons deserve to be safe and supported when accessing abortion services.

(2) Limited access to effective and safe abortion services contributes to detrimental outcomes and con- sequences for those seeking an abortion, as an esti - mated 25 million unsafe abortions occur worldwide each year.

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 833

(3) The provincial government's reckless health- care cuts have created inequity within the health-care system whereby access to the abortion pill, Mifegymiso, and surgical abortions are less accessible for northern and rural individuals than individuals in southern Manitoba, as they face travel barriers to access the handful of non- urban health-care pro fes- sionals who are trained to provide medical abortions.

(4) For over five years, and over the adminis tra- tion of three failed Health ministers, the prov incial government operated under the pretense that repro- ductive health was not the responsi bility of the Ministry of Health and Seniors Care and shifted the responsibility to a secretariat with no policy, program or financial authority within the health-care system.

(5) For over four years, the prov incial gov ern- ment has refused to support bill 200, The Safe Access to Abortion Services Act, which will ensure the safety of Manitoba women, girls, two- spirit, genderqueer, non-binary and trans persons accessing abortion services, and the staff who provide such services, by establishing buffer zones for anti -choice Manitobans around clinics.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the prov incial gov ernment to imme - diately ensure effective and safe access to abortion services for individuals, regardless of where they reside in Manitoba, and to ensure that buffer zones are immediately legislated. This has been signed by Jenny Opazo, Chantel Machadro [phonetic] and Michelle Turcotte and many Manitobans. Foot-Care Services Mr. Ian Bushie (Keewatinook): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. To the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba: The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those aged 55- plus has grown to approximately 2,500 in the city of Thompson.

(2) A large percentage of people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment.

(3) A large percentage of those who are elderly and/or diabetic are also living on low incomes.

(4) The northern regional health author ity, the N-R-H-A, previously provided essential medical foot- care services to seniors and those living with diabetes until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those positions retired.

(5) The number of seniors and those with diabetes has only continued to grow in Thompson and surrounding areas.

(6) There is no adequate medical care available in the city and region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres.

(7) The implications of inadequate or lack of podiatric care can lead to amputations.

(8) The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health-care service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses to restore essential medical foot-care treatment to the city of Thompson effective April 1, 2022. This petition has been signed by Jeremy Cook, Doris Cook, Lena Henderson and many, many other Manitobans. Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those aged 55- plus has grown to approximately two thousand–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. * (14:40) If we could just keep the volume of chatter a little quieter than it is, that would help things run more smoothly. Thank you. Mr. Wiebe: I'll start over, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those 55-plus has grown to approximately 2,500 in the city of Thompson.

(2) A large percentage of people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment.

(3) A large percentage of those who are elderly and/or diabetic are also living on low incomes.

(4) The northern regional health author ity, the N-R-H-A, previously provided essential medical foot-

834 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 care services to seniors and those living with disabilities until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those positions retired.

(5) The number of seniors and those with diabetes has only continued to grow in Thompson and surrounding areas.

(6) There is no adequate medical care available in the city and region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres.

(7) The implications of inadequate or lack of podiatric care can lead to amputations.

(8) The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health-care service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the Legislative Assem bly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses to restore essential medical foot-care treatment to the city of Thompson effective April 1st, 2022. And this petition, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is signed by many Manitobans. MLA Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those aged 55- plus has grown to approximately 2,500 in the city of Thompson.

(2) A large percentage of people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment.

(3) A large percentage of those who are elderly and/or diabetic are also living on low incomes.

(4) The northern regional heal th author ity, N-R-H-A, previously provided essential medical foot- care services to seniors and those living with diabetes until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those positions retired.

(5) The number of seniors and those with diabetes has only continued to grow in Thompson and surrounding areas.

(6) There is no adequate medical care available in the city and region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres.

(7) The implications of inadequate or lack of podiatric care can lead to amputations.

(8) The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health centre service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the L egislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses and restore essential medical foot-care treatment to the city of Thompson effective April 1, 2022. And this petition, Mr. Deputy Speaker, has been signed by Daisy Amy Linklater, Jonathan J.R. Brightnose, Lanze Cherillard [phonetic] and other Manitobans. Cochlear Implant Program Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: People who suffer hearing loss due to aging, illness, employment or accident not only lose the ability to communicate effectively with friends, relatives or colleagues; they also can experien ce un- employment, social isolation and struggles with mental health.

A cochlear implant is a life -changing electronic device that allows deaf people to receive and process sounds and speech, and also can partially restore hearing in people who have sever e hearing loss and who do not benefit from conventional hearing aids. A processor behind the ear captures and processes sound signals which are transmitted to a receiver implanted into the skull that relays the information to the inner ear. The technology has been available since 1989 through the Central Speech and–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Thank you. Mr.

Gerrard: The tech nology has been available since 1989 through the Central Speech and Hearing Clinic founded in Winnipeg, Manitoba. The Surgical Hearing Implant program began implanting patients in the fall of 2011 and marked the completion of 250 cochlear implant surgeries in Manitoba in the summer of 2018. The program has implanted about

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 835 60 devices since the summer of 2018, as it is only able to implant about 40 to 45 devices per year. There are no upfront costs to Manitoba resi dents who proceed with cochlear implant surgery, as Manitoba Health covers the surgical procedure, internal implant and the first external sound processor. Newfoundland and Manitoba have the highest estimated implantation costs of all provinces. Alberta has one of the best programs with Alberta aids for daily living, and their cost share means the patient pays only approximately $500 out of pocket.

Assistive Devices Program in Ontario covers 75 per cent of the cost, up to a maximum amount of $5,444, for a cochlear implant replacement speech processor. The BC Adult Cochlear Implant Program offers subsidized replacements to aging sound pro- cessors throu gh the Sound Processor Replacement program. The provincially funded program is avail - able to those cochlear implant recipients whose sound processors have reached six to seven years of age. The cochlear implant is a lifelong commitment. However, as the technology changes over time, parts and software become no longer functional or avail - able.

The cost of upgrading a cochlear implant in Manitoba of approximately $11,000 is much more expensive than in other provinces, as adult patients are responsible for t he upgrade costs of their sound processor. In Manitoba, pediatric patients under 18 years of age are eligible for funding assistance through the Cochlear Implant Speech Processor Replacement Program, which provides up to 80 per cent of the replacement costs associated with a device upgrade.

It is unreasonable that this technology is in - accessible to many citizens of Manitoba who must choose between hearing and deafness due to financial constraints because the costs of maintaining the equip- ment are prohibitive for low-income earners or those on a fixed income, such as old age pension or Employment and Income Assistance.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba: To urge the provincial government to provide financing for upgrades to the cochlear implant cover- ed under medicare, or provide funding assistance through the Cochlear Implant Speech Processor Replacement Program to assist with the replacement costs associated with a device upgrade. Signed by Kayode Otegbude [phonetic] , Mane Heyward [phonetic], Darryl Boychuk and many, many others. Diagnostic Testing Accessibility Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) Until recently, d iagnostic medical tests, including for blood and fluid samples, were available and accessible in most medical clinics.

(2) Dynacare blood test labs have consolidated their blood and fluid testing services by closing 25 of its labs. * (14:50)

(3) The provincial government has cut diagnostic testing at many clinic sites, and residents now have to travel to different locations to get their testing done, even for a simple blood test or urine sample.

(4) Further, travel challenges for vulnerable and elderly residents of northeast Winnipeg may result in fewer tests being done or delays in testing, with the attendant effects of increased health -care costs and poorer individual patient outcomes.

(5) COVID-19 emergency rules have resulted in long outdoor lineups, putting vulnerable residents at further risk in extreme weather, be it hot or cold. Moreover, these long lineups have resulted in longer wait times for services and poorer service in general.

(6) Manitoba residents value the convenience and efficiency of the health -care system when they are able to give their samples at the time of their doctor visit. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to immedi - ately demand Dynacare maintain all o f the phlebotomy, blood sample, sites existing prior to the COVID-19 public health emergency, and allow all Manitobans to get their blood and urine tests done when visiting their doctor, thereby facilitating local access to blood testing services. This p etition is signed by many, many Manitobans.

Eating Disorders Awareness Week Ms. Lisa Naylor (Wolseley): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

836 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 To the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba: The background of this petition is as follows: An estimated 1 million people suffer from eating disorders in Canada. Eating disorders are serious mental illnesses affecting one's physical, psychological and social function, and have the highest mortality rate of any mental illness. The dev elopment and treatment of eating disorders are influenced by the social determinants of health, including food and income security, access to housing, health care and mental health supports.

It is important to share the diverse experiences of people with eating disorders across all ages, genders and identities, including Indigenous, Black and racialized people; queer and gender -diverse people; people with dis abilities; people with chronic illness; and people with co- occurring mental health con di- tions or addictions. It is necessary to increase awareness and edu ca- tion about the impact of those living with, or affected by, eating disorders in order to dispel dangerous stereotypes and myths about these illnesses.

Setting aside one week each year to focus attention on eating disorders will heighten public understanding, increase awareness of culturally relevant resources and supports for those impacted by eating disorders and encourage Manitobans to develop healthier relationships with their bodies. We petition the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the prov incial government to support a declaration that the first week in February of each year be known as eating disorder awareness week. This has been signed by Emily Beaumont -Blais, Danielle Guenette and Sydney MacAlpine, and many other Manitobans.

Foot-Care Services Mrs. Bernadette Smith (Point Douglas): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The Legislative Assembly of Manitoba: The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those aged 55- plus has grown to approximately 2,500 in the city of Thompson.

(2) A large percentage of people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment.

(3) A percentage of those who are elderly and/or diabetic are also living on low incomes.

(4) The northern regional health author ity previously provided essential medical foot -care services to seniors and those living with diabetes until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those positions retired.

(5) The number of seniors and those with diabetes has only continuing–continued to grow in Thompson and surrounding areas.

(6) There is no adequate medical care available in the city and region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres.

(7) The implications of inadequate or lack of podiatric care can lead to amputations.

(8) The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health-care service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses to restore essential medical foot care treatment to the city of Thompson, effective April 1st, 2020. And this has been signed by Darlene Bradburn, Keecy Ross and Vigor Pupel, and many other Manitobans. Miigwech. Abortion Services Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) Manitoba women, girls, two -spirit, genderqueer, non-binary and trans persons deserve to be safe and supported when accessing abortion services.

(2) Limited access to effective and safe abortion services contributes to detrimental outcomes and con- sequences for those seeking an abortion, as an esti - mated 25 million unsafe abortions occur worldwide each year.

(3) The provincial government's reckless health- care cuts have created inequity within the health-care system whereby access to the abortion pill,

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 837 Mifegymiso, and surgical abortions are less accessible for northern and rural individuals than individuals in southern Manitoba, as they face travel barriers to access the handful of non- urban health-care pro fes- sionals who are trained to provide medical abortions.

(4) For over five years, and over the admin istra- tion of three failed Health ministers, the prov incial government operated under the pretense that reproductive health was not the responsi bility of the Ministry of Health and Seniors Care and shifted the responsibility to a secretariat with no policy, program or financial authority within the health-care system.

(5) And for over four years, the prov incial gov- ernment has refused to support bill 200, The Safe Access to Abortion Services Act, which will ensure the safety of Manitoba women, girls, two -spirit, genderqueer, non-binary and trans persons accessing abortion s ervices, and the staff who provide such services, by establishing buffer zones for anti -choice Manitobans around clinics.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the prov incial gov ernment to imme - diately ensure effective and safe access to abortion services for individuals, regardless of where they reside in Manitoba, and to ensure that buffer zones are immediately legislated. Signed by Liam Reid, Brennan [phonetic] Wall and Maureen Cooper and many more Manitobans. Miigwech. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Are there any other petitions? Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Could you please call for debate this afternoon Bill 16, 15, 8 and 13? Mr.

Deputy Speaker: It has been announced by the honourable Government House Leader this afternoon consideration of Bill 16, 15, 8 and 13. We will –for a second reading. SECOND READINGS Bill 16–The Financial Administration Amendment Act Mr. Deputy Speaker: We will proceed with Bill 16, The Financial Administration Amendment Act. Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of Indigenous Recon- ciliation and Northern Relations (Mr. Lagimodiere), that Bill 16, The Financial Adminis tration Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la gestion des finances publiques, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. * (15:00) Motion presented. Mr. Friesen: I'm pleased to rise and put some com - ments on the record in respect of Bill 16, The Financial Administration Amendment Act. We've been in this House a couple of times in the last week debating things like the supple mentary ap- propriation act and the interim appropriation act. And this one, for the afternoon, goes a little more smoothly–well, perhaps more smoothly because we're not going to consider all the parts of a bill in one afternoon.

So, we're in second reading this afternoon. I was pleased to have the opportunity to meet with members of the opposition, the critic for Finance from the NDP party and others, to be able to discuss what this bill entails, why we are bringing it on this time and what we are seeking to do as a government. In some respects you could say this is the second phase of a two -phase project –a process that was undertaken earlier and advanced under my pre - decessor.

And that was, of course, to bring changes to The Financial Admin istration Act in Manitoba to reflect process changes and advancements and best practice, as seen as other –in other juris dictions, to bring Manitoba in line with best practice, in terms of how we approach financial decision-making, account- ability, controls. This Legislature will know full well that we have been placing far more of an em phasis on the con- solidated government-reported entity. In other words, the

summary picture instead of just core government– and those are words that are well known to us; core government referring to de partments of government, but the

summary gov ernment, of course, being that consolidated picture of everything else and including core government. That means depart ments and other reporting entities and special op erating agencies, and schools and post -secondary in stitutions, and regional health authorities and so many other things.

838 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 And so, when that is all rolled into one, as it should be, then where should the emphasis be placed? I can recall, you know, in t he past, where the NDP government used to play, you know, cute by half by emphasizing the core picture when they wanted to, or emphasizing the

summary picture when they wanted to, and be able to basically detract from attention being placed in an area of sensitivity for themselves. This is, in many ways, a far more transparent way of looking at the total performance of gov ernment, being able to analyze what is it that gov ernment is seeking in terms of author ity, for borrowing, for capital, for operating. What–and what this set of amendments essen- tially does is ask the question: What does the govern- ment need and how transparently is that presented in an annual request. So let me begin with a little bit of context about how this bill was developed.

Early on in the pandemic, it was clear that there was going to be great uncertainty around the state of capital markets and stability. We know that banks and lending became quite dysfunctional in the first few months of the pandemic. This is widely known around the world, as people were trying to grapple with what was happening, how significantly were supply chains being put off, what were going to be the challenges with labour. Mr. Deputy Speaker, you'll recall the run on con- sumer products, including things like toilet paper, where people began to stockpile things.

And I can tell you there was that same–not panic, but same urgency in the banking sector. At the time, in this province, you will recall that there was uncertainty about authority. Would govern- ments–would sovereign and sub- sovereign gov ern- ments continue to have access to markets to be able to maintain the normal operation of departments and the government during a pandemic. And members in this Chamber will remember that our government passed a $5 billion borrowing author- ity request in Loan Act, 2020. It received royal assent on April the 15th, 2022, not even two years before.

And while we are thankful that we did not have to avail ourselves of that voted author ity, nevertheless, they were exceptional circumstances, exigent circum- stances, and this government acted appropriately. Previous loan acts in this province, regardless of who's been in charge, have focused on ensuring adequate funding for the single annua l year in which they're passed–or, I should say, the single fiscal year in which they're passed. Unfor tunately, it's not clear, when time passes, how much total author ity the Province has available to it.

Because, essentially, you will bring a loan act; you will, hopefully, debate a loan act –and I'll come back to that point in a bit later –and then you'll pass that loan act. But the problem is that that loan act's authority does not expire. And so, the government has available to it the loan act authority from the previous year that it did not utilize, and anything else it seeks. But more than that, the government also has available to it every single loan act before, and the accumulated underutilization of those loan acts.

So how does that reconc iliation take place, and how do we know what the total borrowing author ity of the Province is? Well, that was complicated, and this bill seeks to uncomplicate the process of knowing what does the government have available to it in terms of borrowing authority, and what is it seeking in this year. So our gov ernment has intro duced this bill to address that uncertainty and lack of clarity about how much total borrowing authority the Province has. Because of the annual nature of the loan act, there just was never that recon ciliation between debt level and authority to borrow.

I can tell you that between the years 2000 and 2021, there were nearly $14 billion of built-up authority to borrow. And I wouldn't think that many Manitobans would be available –would be aware of that number. They wouldn't automatically know through the budgetary process. They wouldn't automatically know through the annual statement of the public accounts what that total accumulated bor - rowing authority is. So, the approach of provi ding incremental bor - rowing author ity to the Province in loan acts we believe has not served the people of Manitoba well.

We don't believe that it has served the members of this Legislature well. We should clearly and transparently state how much authority the Province has. Given that the debt level at Manitoba Hydro is currently high after the completion of Keeyask, and Bipole III, and the Minnesota -Manitoba tie -in line, and changes and im provements to things like those transmission switching stations, I'm getting that word wrong, but places like the Dorsey station. Conversion stations, that's what they are. Knowing that that level of debt is high, I want to be clear that that is ratepayer- supported debt.

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 839 And that is why, in this bill, we wou ld have one authority stated for the Province of Manitoba, the gov- ernment of Manitoba, and that would be taxpayer - supported debt. And then one authority for Manitoba Hydro, which we, the NDP government and everyone, has always been clear on, is sep arate, because it is ratepayer-supported. These proposed reforms will do away with the annual loan act, they–with borrowing authority limits for the Province, the Manitoba Hydro, that will be set in legis lation in The Financial Admin istration Act.

And these limits will assist in avoiding the build up of unnecessary borrowing authority. I want to be clear that it is a good idea to have some wiggle room, if the Finance minister can use that term. It's a good idea to not be right at the ceiling of your requirements. I think we would all understand, we've all followed, with some interest and some apprehension, conversations in the US, for instance, where we would see that all of a sudden you had to have an emergency session in the Capitol, because we would reach what was called that fiscal cliff, they would talk about. That debt ceiling.

And there was this imminent need to pass authority, or you would end up in this brinksmanship place where you couldn't pay teachers, and you couldn't pay for, you know, roads, and you couldn't meet your bills, and couldn't send out cheques to those who were receiving gov ernment supports. That is not the intent of anything in this bill. It's a good idea to have at your availability some excess borrowing authority. If there is one thing that the last two years has taught this –well, the world, is that we have to be able to plan for exigent circumstances.

So, our proposed borrowing author ity, a limit of $44.4 billion, provides $9.2 billion in borrowing auth- ority over the accumulated debt, sufficient to cover the fiscal needs for 2022-23, and also the fiscal 2023-24, with a healthy contingency amount for reasons that I just stated. * (15:10) Bill 16 also includes provisions to–that allow for additional borrowing that can be authorized by Cabinet in those circum stances where there is an emergency or exigent circumstances. Most provinces, I would add, do not have a loan act that provides borrowing author ity for a province.

And other provinces, I would note as well, do have that ability in emergency circumstances to seek addi- tional authority. The bill also assists in reforming the way that government reporting entities receive loans from the government. The amend ments allow for loans to be issued based on appro priations that are approved by this Assembly. Currently, Manitoba is the only pro- vince that provides author ity for loans to reporting organizations through a loan act, so with these changes we would join the approach of other provinces. Like I said, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the bill proposes a limit of $44.4 billion.

It's a large number. In fact, it's a bit over $9 billion more than the current debt levels of the Province of Manitoba, but it's less than the nearly $14 billion, I might add, in borrowing authority built up, like I said, since the year 2000. So the borrowing author ity limit is in respect of what our debt is, plus our needs for this coming fiscal year, plus the needs for the next fiscal year, plus some contingency to be prudent. I would also mention to my colleagues, as I men- tioned it in the bill briefing, that the limit would be adjusted in time.

It's not like one size fits all and that becomes the limit over time, because obviously, gov- ernment has require ments. Gov ernment should be seeking to live within its means. That means that there must be a prudent path towards balance. And right now, of course, the province of Manitoba, after the most significant economic event– but also, of course, principally, health- care event–of our time, had to additionally spend to help Manitobans. And our gov ernment was definitely there, helping individuals, helping businesses, helping front-line workers, helping health- care workers in many ways through–of support.

But, obviously, this bill contains provisions for that adjustment to be made over time through subsequent budget imple mentation legis lation and, eventually, to show the path towards balance. And I would make clear, it would be exactly through what we call the BITS A bill that budget implementation legislation, where those adjustments would be made. Just a word about Hydro again. Hydro's debt is nearly as large now as the rest of

summary gov ern- ment. Sometimes takes a minute just for that to sink in, knowing that just 10 years ago, Hydro's debt was half of what it was today.

840 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 Given that reality, we've proposed a limit of – [interjection]–oh, I'm hearing criticism from the other side. I would want to make clear that the reason that Manitoba Hydro's debt is as l arge as it is, is exactly the mismanagement of the former NDP gov ernment. [interjection] And now I hear more chirping, so I'll take a little time there to help unpack that for them if they're unclear on the concepts. The Keeyask dam was originally contemplated at somewhere around $6 billion, although there were some unofficial estimates of much lower.

The even - tual final completion cost was $8.7 billion. Not only was it the biggest economic scandal of our time that the NDP did this, but they deliber ately hid–they deliberately hid –the es calation in known project costs from Manitobans. And that is shocking to Manitobans. Even in the 2011 budget, the year that I, and the member for Portage La Prairie (Mr.

Wishart) and other members in the House were elected to this Legislature, that was a year in which, even for the Bipole project, the NDP gov ernment printed an esti - mate in their budget papers that, later on, experts proved to be $1 billion short of what they knew at the time to be the true cost. This was all disclosed in the economic report on Keeyask and Bipole III. And we've accepted the recommendations. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Friesen: So as the members this afternoon con- tinue to chirp, I would remind them that the e x- penditures–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr.

Friesen: –that the overrun in respect of Keeyask and Bipole III, is in the billions of dollars. Mr. Deputy Speaker, $3.7 billion is the modest estimate of the cost overrun. So let's be clear t hat borrowing matters and debt matters. Because even though the biggest deceit of the pre- vious NDP government in respect of Hydro was they said hydro is Manitoba's oil. Don't worry. Manitobans won't have to pay a nickel for the cost of these billions of dollars of assets. We remember that because we were in the House at the time. We were listening to those speeches.

What became clear over time is if there had been a rationale that supported it–and there may have been in 2003 and 2004; there may have been less in 2005– but as the world's needs for energy changed, as the world's ability to extract energy changed, the NDP did nothing to update Manitobans on the actual cost over- runs on their record of completing large Hydro pro - jects on task and on budget . But they did more than that. They went around the formal processes that were in place to protect Manitobans. And that's a tragedy.

So now the NDP are wedged because they have to run for re -election in 18 months, and it's a pickle they're in, because here's their challenge: they have to somehow try to convince Manitobans that the $4 billion of cost overruns are not important and that somehow any amounts that Manitobans now have to pay because the PUB is going to order Hydro to have certain rate increases should somehow be on suc - cessive governments. So that's a challenging place for them to be.

But I think we could all agree that debt matters and the path to balance eventually over time matters because we have to be good stewards of our public funds. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I'm going to wrap up by say- ing the following, that we have many laws in this pro- vince about how gov ernment can –reporting entities can borrow funds for temporary purposes or for work- ing capital. These are tax -supported organizations, and their debt is part of the debt of the gov ernment- reporting entity.

So the issue is that not all reporting organizations have legislation that specify how much is authorized for temporary borrowing. This is im portant. And the question cam e up during the bill briefing. Bill 16 allows for limits to be set if they are not in legislation. And this includes things like child and family author- ities, personal-care homes, other health -care organi- zations. The provision does not take away from the amounts currently authorized in legislation. I wanted to make that clarification for all members.

In a future bill, we may look to clean up various pieces of legis lation across reporting organi zations and use a single regula tion that specifies those amounts, thereby treating those reporting organi - zations more consistently. But these amendments are a good first step, and they start by filling in the gaps where there is no legis lation or temporary borrowing currently in place. There's a couple of other things that this bill does– very quickly. It does reflect in the Estimates

part C

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 841 and part D. We've been doing that already in the last two years in the Legislature. It essentially enshrines this practice in legislation. Number 2, it also increases the infor mation provided in the supple ment to the Estimates of expenditure. I know that this is some thing that the NDP party and the Liberal Party wanted very much. And so even though we have been provi ding already that additional detail, this enshrines it in legislation.

Number 3, it allows for a co -ordinated approach on how borrowing organi zations–sorry, on how reporting organizations borrow and lend money, which is very im portant as debts and loans of reporting entities are consolidated in the

summary accounts of gov ernment. And it streamlines the process for issuing loans for reporting organi zations. Currently, after the bill is passed it requires an order- in-council by the Cabinet to issue these loans. That's redundant because Cabinet has, at this stage, already approved the inclusion of these loans and budget. So it makes the process more streamlined as well. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I'm pleased to put these words on the record. I look forward to the debate this afternoon. Hoping for agreement by all parties to agree to advance this bill after debate to com mittee stage. Questions Mr.

Deputy Speaker: A question period of up to 15 minutes will be held. Questions may be addressed to the minister by any member in the following sequence: fi rst question by the official opposi tion critic or designate, subsequent questions asked by critics or designates from other recognized opposition parties, subsequent questions asked by each indepen- dent member, remaining questions asked by any op - position members and no question or answer shall exceed 45 seconds. * (15:20) Mr.

Mark Wasyliw (Fort Garry): Will the minister commit to ensuring that the Estimates books in all budget years are as com prehensive and specific by appropriation and subappropriation as they have been, apart from last year? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Finance): No, I will not, because, in fact, I will meet that and go beyond. Actually, these Estimates expenditure docu- ments will contain more information than previous. As I said before, we have already returned to pro- viding that addi tional detail.

In some respects, this enshrines that in legislation, but it also includes other considerations that weren't previously in those books. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Yes, I'd like to get on the record clarity as to what are counted as reporting 'endercy'–entities. So, would this include health care? Would this include education K to 12, education post-secondary? Municipal, Crown cor porations? W ould it include organizations which might be NGOs or others which receive grants or payments from the government? Mr. Friesen: Well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I know that the member for River Heights and I are not strangers to this place, and I know that tha t individual in this House knows the process very, very well. I'm always impressed by the depth of the ques - tions that he asks during the Committee of Supply and other things. And, oftentimes, in some respects, I feel there's rules here that he knows, actually, sometimes better than me. So give credit where credit is due. So–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, order. Mr. Friesen: –I would say to the member, he does know what constitutes government-reporting entities.

But all he would have to do is avail himself of a copy of the–let's say, the Public Accounts, or even the budget and budget papers clearly list what are those entities exactly, many of the ones that he just listed now, you know, post-secondaries and education, and things like personal-care homes or, you know, regional health authorities and others. Mr. Adrien Sala (St. James): Will the minister specify that sub appropriations for de partmental Estimates be included in the Estimates prepared for this House? Mr. Friesen: Could the member just repeat the question? I just missed part of the question. Mr. Sala: Sure.

Will the minister specify that subappropriations for de partmental Estimates be included in the Estimates prepared for this House? Mr. Friesen: Yes, exactly as the member has said, the subappropriation–so not just the de partment, but the same way the books used to present those separate areas of function, including FTEs and costs, in that same matter–in that same manner, not only stipulating the amounts, but the amounts in respect of last year, with comparisons.

842 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 Mr. Gerrard: Yes, I notice in

section 33 that the Main Estimates are required to include Estimates of expenses. And the problem the last several years is that we've had half a budget which only includes the Estimates of expenditure but not the Estimates of revenue. So will there be a requirement that the Estimates of revenue be included for these Estimates, and that that would include the Estimates of revenue from reporting agencies as well? Mr. Friesen: First of all, to the question that the member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) formerly asked, he did mention at the end–I believe he said, and NGOs.

But I would be clear that non- government reporting–non-government organizations would not be consolidated. So in that respect, he would be thinking of those organizations with whom the gov ernment contracts, and they enter into service-delivery–service-purchase agreements, but in those cases, those things aren't captured. Think like a faith-based personal-care home that provides personal-care-home services.

To the member's former question, which I am endeavouring to now remember, that he just asked–I may need a refresh. [interjection] And my officials advise me that Estimates of revenue are already available, so the report is redundant. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The minister's time has expired. Mr. Wasyliw: Bill 16 outlines that, for the purposes of accounting, all subsidiaries of Manitoba Hydro are considered to be part of Hydro. Does the minister agree that it follows that when the gov ernment privatizes a sub sidiary of Hydro, it also privatizes part of Manitoba Hydro? Mr. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, this gov ernment has been clear that while it might be the NDP plan to privatize Hydro, it is not our plan to privatize Hydro. Mr. Gerrard: My question to the minister is this: Will all the reporting agencies have to borrow only through the Province or would there be some excep- tions of reporting agencies which could borrow out - side, borrowing through the Province? Mr. Friesen: I thank the member for the question.

I think the member recognizes that it's usually far more preferential for entities to be borrowing through the Province because of the fact that the Province can go to markets and get better rates than would other - wise be the case. There's an important form in this, as well, and it speaks to accountability and transparency. You could see with a myriad of arrangements whereby entities are availing themselves of their own funding that there could be problems with oversight.

But I would say sometimes when it comes to school divisions, those are exceptions where school divisions do have financial arrangements with lending institutions and that some sometimes for the purpose– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The minister's time has expired. Mr. Sala: I'd like to ask the minister, why did the gov- ernment refuse to provide detailed information in the Estimates books last year to Manitobans? Mr. Friesen: There's no refusal what soever, so I reject the premise of the question. The member does know that we have been working hard to be able to provide good infor mation to Manitobans.

That member knows that when it comes to things like the –I'm trying to remember the correct word in our website where we do our dis - closure–oh, it's a voluntary disclosure

section of the government's website–that there are more documents than ever that are simply put there for the public to avoid a FIPPA process. So this gov ernment's commit ment to trans par- ency and reporting is clear but we're always happy to make improvements, as we're doing this year in this new format. Mr. Gerrard: Yes, just to clarify a follow-up, school divisions would presumably be reporting author ities. Would they now have to borrow only through the gov- ernment and not as sometimes they've done in the past which is borrow elsewhere? Mr.

Friesen: There is no mechanism in this bill that would preclude school divisions from the current practices that are in place whereb y, in some cases, they borrow directly from banking institutions. Mr. Wasyliw: Now, the minister had indicated that they include revenue estimates already but we know that's not true. Under the–Brian Pallister's last govern- ment, he didn't–or last budget didn't include revenue estimates. So, the minister says, well, we're including these things in law so that we're trans parent and open and the governments will have to do it, so why wouldn't

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 843 that also be true with revenue estimates? Why wouldn't you codify that practice in law so we can't have another Brian Pallister budget? Mr. Friesen: The member was in the bill briefing for this FAA amendment act legislature–legislation, and so he's aware of the fact that officials were there and answering the question and making clear that the revenue estimates were a sup plementary or an ad di- tional piece of infor mation, but it didn't provide any information that isn't already disclosed.

So I want to indicate to that member that all he has to do right now on his iPad or his laptop is go to the Manitoba government Public Accounts and he can pull up, this afternoon, the revenue estimates in a format that simply–that supplement was redundant in making available. Mr.

Gerrard: Yes, the minister mention ed that –of the concern about financial markets being destabilized by COVID-19, were there examples with any of the reporting agencies which had unstable situations, or is, in fact–this is not necessary to address a problem which occurred under COVID-19 because it actually didn't occur in Manitoba? * (15:30) Mr. Friesen: I thank the member for the question. I don't think anybody can deny the extent to which, in those initial months of COVID -19 and this global pandemic, many financial markets were not behaving functionally.

There was a scramble to determine how significant financial disruption would be, how it sig - nificantly disrupted access to capital would be, how significant that ability for provinces and senior gov - ernments to be able to meet their require ments, their obligations for borrowing would be. And it was, I would say –I would reflect that it was, in those early days, it was challenging. What happened throughout the pandemic is that that stab - ility came back, which we like to see. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have good financial controls and that we shouldn't have a better way of voting– Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The minister's time has expired. Mr. Wasyliw: For decades, governments of all polit- ical stripes were able to provide det ailed financial information to Manitobans without having to resort to legislation. Why does this PC gov ernment feel that the only way they can provide basic financial infor mation to Manitoba is through the provisions of this bill? Mr. Friesen: Well, if the member for Fort Garry (Mr.

Wasyliw) was listening, he would have heard that Manitoba is now one of the only provinces in all of Canada that still has this old -fashioned way of stating what its annual require ments are for borrow - ing. However, it's not transparent. And so, in the spirit and the–of transparency and in an effort to go to best practice we are moving to the same practice as the federal gov ernment. We're moving to the same practice as five other provinces, and to be able to stat e far more coherently what the requirements of the government are for all legislators. Mr.

Gerrard: The minister has indicated that there was a lot of surplus of borrowing capability because of previous loan acts, and I wonder, then–I mean, was that real borrowing capability? If it was, why wasn't the minister using it instead of bringing in an interim supply? Mr. Friesen: Sometimes I wonder if the member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) is trying to trick me. What the member knows–and he's smiling now, so I– I'm going to say what he knows that there is a difference between borrowing authority and authority to spend.

And he knows that a province –our govern- ment could avail them selves of all the borrowing authority they thought they could if it could be passed. But it doesn't give them licence to spend. It is the Legislature that provides licence to spend through this process that we protect and uphold by our presence here. So I thank the member for the question, but let's not conflate borrowing authority and spending author- ity. Mr. Sala: Does the Auditor General support the changes to borrowing authority outlined in this bill? Mr. Friesen: Long story short: yes.

The Treasury Board Secretariat, the comptroller for the government of Manitoba, the Auditor General, other jurisdictions, the federal gov ernment, all care- fully–those approaches all carefully studied and the Office of the OAG, as the member has said, yes, carefully engaged in this process. Mr. Gerrard: I think one of the interes ting aspects of this bill is that it's an indication that the Finance Minister and the government want to keep on borrow- ing and borrowing and borrowing for $9 million more than the debt is already.

844 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 Now, my question, however, is related to Hydro debt. Is the government separating the Hydro debt be- cause it doesn't want the gov ernment debt to look as high as it would if Hydro was added on? Mr. Friesen: Well, it's always an interesting day in the Manitoba Legislature when a member of the Liberal party stands up and lectures the gov ernment for borrowing and borrowing and borrowing and borrowing, so I would want to remind that member of what his federal counterparts have been doing for the last two and a half years.

But all kidding aside, you know the member's question is a good one in that, what's the plan? And I think that the plan that I would want to refer to is the plan that last year we amended the Fiscal Responsibility and Taxpayer Protec tion Act and we said, look, as challenging as the se times are, we still contemplate an eight-year path back to balance is im- portant for governments to be able to be expenditure- conscious and deficit conscious and work towards stability for the benefit of all Manitobans. Mr.

Wasyliw: Are the changes to borrowing author- ity outlined in this bill, for both gov ernment as well Hydro, consistent with generally accepted accounts and principles? Mr. Friesen: Yes, as I indicated previously, both gap compliance and actually, now, best practice. The federal government follows this same approach with their borrowing author ity act.

Ontario, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, none of those provinces provide for borrowing by their reporting organi zations, but I can tell you that when you do the 'peet' –the prov- incial/territorial scan, Manitoba is clearly moving in the direction of best practice by adopting these new procedures. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The time for questions has ended. Debate Mr. Deputy Speaker: The floor is open for debate. Mr. Mark Wasyliw (Fort Garry): You know, this bill is interesting, but not for what it says, but what it actually shows.

I think this is a good example of this government being in the late stages of its death spiral. And we're seeing a tired gov ernment that is running out of gas, and certainly out of ideas, and what ideas they have, you know, 'chairably' are bad. An Honourable Member: Well, they never had a good idea. Mr. Wasyliw: Yes. So, it comes down to Bill 16, where the roll-out of this bill is very interesting. The government, you know, threw out the red carpet, they held a technical briefing, and they assembled all the members of the press because this was a big deal.

And they drummed up the media on it, and they say the purpose of it was to increase financial accountability and reporting. What they were sending a signal to their ever - shrinking conservative base, is they were trying to make this a debt ceiling law. They were trying to borrow because, of course, there's no good ideas in Canadian conservatism, so they go south of the border and they, you know, dust off some, you know, tried and true Texas law, and they want this debt ceiling. But, of course, that's not what this bill is about. That's not its purpose. It's not its content.

And it was very interesting b eing in the bill briefing with the minister, who went out of his way to assure everybody present that this wasn't a debt ceiling law, and that no government would ever actually have to, you know, be governed by this law, God forbid, and that there's lots of wiggle room, which is very interesting when they came out to the press and were basically trying to infer that, in fact–that this is what it was, and that, you know, they are a fiscally responsible government and so please stop leaving their party and please stop, you know, choosing to vote for other people.

So, this is an example of, you know, what basic - ally this whole session has been. It's been all press release politics. There's hasn't been any substantive legislation that's been going through, you know, this House. I mean, we have a deadline next Tuesday and there's not going to be any surprises here. This is a government that's in hiding. This is a government that is basically bringing placeholder and housekeeping legislation through this Legislature.

I, you know, we have been very critical of this government, and when they're bringing in legislations that we're having trouble finding, you know, fault with, you know that there's some thing gone very terribly wrong with this government. And they've just stopped trying. They've just stopped trying and they've gone into hiding. So, this is –again, this just shows you how tired and out of ideas they are, that they know they're deeply unpopular, they know that this is the final 18 months of their gov ernment and they're biding their time.

And their sort of Hail Mary pass is that what if we go into hiding, because people certainly don't like our ideas and they certainly don't like us, so

March 17, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 845 if we don't say or do anything, maybe we can squea k by in the next election. Well, you know, I wish them well with that. It's not going to work. But, you know, it's interesting to see. Like I said, it's fascinating. So, this is not about really much of anything except virtue signalling. This is a virtue-signalling bill where this government is trying to send, you know, a message to their ever-'shinking' base that, you know, the old cliché that we're a fiscally responsible govern- ment. * (15:40) Well, you're not. You haven't been.

And I think the record of this government for the past six years has been one of fiscal irresponsibility. So if we need a recent example of a similar piece of legislation, this is just a new version of the balanced budget legislation; it's bad political theatre. And, of course, let's recall what happened with that piece of legis lation. In six years of gov ernment, they modified it four times because they were at risk of violating the law on four separate occasions.

And, of course, the conse quences of that would be the ministers would have to get their paycheque docked and, of course, they couldn't let that happen. And so accountability went out of the window and they just simply changed the law. And it was completely meaningless legislation. I think it was ridiculed in the press as being that way, that it was just bad political theatre. And we're at it again. And it's the same thing with this piece of legis- lation. It's just meant to virtue signal, it's meant to point to their base and say, look, we're fiscal Conservatives, sort of.

And when people ask, well, really, what makes you fiscal Conservatives? You've ran the largest deficit in Manitoba history. You're the only political party in Manitoba's history to have two back- to-back credit downgrades. This is a government that has run the largest debt in Manitoba history and has borrowed money to give tax cuts to wealthy corporations and the wealthiest in Manitoba, including large com mercial landlords like our Premier (Mrs. Stefanson). In fact, we're sendi ng tax dollars out of Manitoba to these large inter - provincial cor porations that have property here in Manitoba.

And somehow –and there is, yes, and clearly that has been terrible for Manitoba. So this is a sham bill and it's not really doing any- thing, and that's problematic. And it's not just me saying this, although I know the members opposite value my opinion and certainly hang on my every word. It's the Free Press. The Free Press, you know, it's–so the Free Press, you know, commented about being dragged down to a technical briefing that was, you know, lacking in 'substant'. And they basically – [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Wasyliw: –commented how fiscally irrespon- sible this government is.

And, you know, despite this gov ernment getting record transfers from the federal government–in fact, the deficit was reduced here entirely by the federal government, this gov ernment did nothing to reduce the actual deficit. In fact, they made it worse by irresponsible and reckless wealthy people tax cuts. So, again, you can thank the federal Liberals for getting the deficit down. The money that we got into Manitoba was almost an identical match for the deficit at that time. So, and of course, despite that, you know, we now have record debt and deficits here.

And at the same time this is going on, and again, this is terrible fiscal manage ment, we've had savage cuts to education, to health care, to infrastructure ser- vices. So, you know, and again, there's a pattern with this government. There is a set of rules that apply to them and their campaign donors, and then there's rules for the rest of us. And, of course, we heard, I think, yesterday with the polar bear thing that there was some interesting favouritism in awarding contracts to one of the biggest donors of the PC party; interestingly enough, who gives more than any one of these members do.

So that's, you know, you can measure one's commitment that way. We certainly would like to. It shows, you know, where their head's at. And, of course, this gov ernment is notorious for shifting the tax burden off of people who can pay, off of people who are being very suc cessful in the way our rules are set up in Manitoba, the way our economy is built, and putting it onto people who are n't as suc- cessful and who haven't been able to navigate our economic rules just as well. And they've raised the cost of living on Manitobans and not only just, you know, routinely raising hydro.

We also know that they have raised uni- versity tuition year after year after year. They've been raising child-care fees year after year after year.

846 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 17, 2022 And then, you know, what they don't understand, or maybe they do and they just don't care, and kind of very much shoulda, woulda, coulda, is that when you make cuts to education, those systems have to survive, and so they will find the money somewhere else, and where they try to make up the difference is in school fees. And school fees in Manitoba have been balloon- ing.

In a public education system in Manitoba, you shouldn't have to worry and stuff, you know, $20 bills into your toddler's, you know, backpack because they have all these extra school fees, which didn't exist a few years ago. Well, why do they exist? Because the schools don't have any money, so now they have to start charging for things that they never, ever used to start charging before, right? That's a huge step backwards for Manitoba. And then, you know, further cuts. So they all roll downhill. This government cut, again, year over year, six straight years, of cuts to education.

You know, my former school division, the Winnipeg School Division had to cut their full-day kindergarten program, right? That's absolutely shameful. And the ultimate respon - sibility is on the Stefanson government. But what happens when you do that? And what was so important–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Wasyliw: –in that program is that many parents could actually go to work because they had high- quality, reliable

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	42-4-25b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	42nd 4th hansardpdf 25b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	647377fba40c686f45545f79489d098313d839fc

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