Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY , MARCH 18, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN. OTTENHEIMER Number 32

March 18, 1976 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Tape 1206 PK - 1 Order, ~lease! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. RON. J. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I have one announcement here, two announcements actually. I would like to make this one first. I am very disappointed to announce that the Provincial tree nursery at Mount Pearl was a casualty of the severe windstorm last night in the area, a combination of wind and the power failure caused the plastic roof and steel superstructure to collapse.

The roof was held up by air pressure using electric pumps. The damage was approximatley $10,000, but the biggest casualty~unfortunately,was the destruction of some 200,000 seedlings destined to be used by the Boy Scouts for their annual Dig Day. And I certainly would like to take this opportunity I am sure on behalf of all members of the House, and the people of the Province to compliment the Boy Scouts and Cubs for this venture which they have been undertaking for the past few years.

I would like to indicate that every effort will be made to obtain suitable growing stock from Mainland points to enable the Scouts to go ahead, and the Cubs, and also to ensure that some trees will be planted across the Island this Spring. The Mount Pearl Nursery is a unit of the main nursery at Wooddale in Central Newfoundland which is under development. The Wooddale Nursery will not come in line for another two or three years with its first crop of trees.

The eventual production of the Wooddale Nursery will be in the vicinity of 5 million trees per year, and it is part of the long-term forest management programme recently instituted by government. The department will be rebuilding the auxillary nursery at Mount Pearl to provide seedlings for next year's planting. MR. SMALLWOOD: Are there copies of that? 3187

March 18, 1976 Tape 1206 PK - 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes. Does anybody want to make a comment, or can I make another statement? MR. NOLAN: Would I be permitted to make a comment? MR. SPEAKER (Dr. COLLINS}: The bon. member from Conception Bay South. MR. NOU)l: It is just a question that arises in view of some of the comments that the minister made yesterday, and what he says today. Obviously we are so=y to hear of the destruction in the area that he mentioned. I mention this question that was suggested to me by someone here in the building today, and that is, maybe the Minister of Transportation might be interested.

Yesterday, tor example, in high drifting,-and I liiiil sure this is true of other areas, I am thinking I , about whe.re the Octagon Pond, you could not see your hand before you yesterday- I am wondering if, in view of trhat the minister said yesterday,whieh we very much appreciated, if it would not be possible to plant some trees there that might offset some of that fierce drifting you get, and I am sure that it could probably be applied to other areas as well. I do not know if it makes any real sense,but, you know, it seems to me that it is better than no answer at all.

So maybe the minister might be able to think about it BOIIle time or the other • . Maybe we can do something in that regard. 3188

Tlarc'> 1~, 1'176. Tape J2n7 Rll - 1 '·JR. SPEAKER: The hon. }linister of Forestry and Agriculture. llot!. J. ROUSSEAU: I have another statement, Nr. Speaker. Yesterday I indicated I would he making an annoucement today or tomorrow on some changes in the methods of leasing agricultural land in the Province. So I am pleased to announce today a further step by ?,overnment to assure the continuation of agriculture in our Province.

For many decades government has been disposing of Crown land for agricultural purposes with little effective assurance that once the land grant was issued the land would continue in agricultural production. The many thousands of acres of farmland in private ownership that now lie idle and unavailable to farmers across our Province is stark evidence that the old policy is just too ~,rasteful of our limited land resource. If hen. members will recall in 1970 our statutes that under

Section 6(1) the minister could lease to any person up to twenty acres for agriculture and under Section (6)2 the Lieutenant-Governor in Council could lease to any person between twenty and 200 acres for agriculture.

Section 6(3) suggested that if the lease, at least he cleared and cultivated 25 per cent of the land within five years and if other terms and conditions had been adhered to the minister shall issue a permit upon application or grant, upon application. Two years ago the Crown Lands Act was amended so that it is no longer mandatory to issue grants to those persons who hold lease to agricultural land. Actually what happened was that it gave the minister the prerogative up to fifty acres and the Lieutenant-C'-.overnor in Council over ZflO acres.

All the effort before they shall give a grant after 25 per cent or so was cleared was not mentioned. It was silent on the matter. For two years we have been studyinp: various systems that might assure our people that Crown land suitable for farming will remain available for that use. Too many acres of good land have been lost to other kinds of development and the so-called land freeze in the St. John's urban region is an example of the kinds of controls that become necessary to protect those lands which can produce crops. A new policy has been adopted ~•hereby no further grants of agricultural 3189

!larch 1?, l'l71i. Tape 1207 RH - 2 •rr .. ROESSF.AU: land will be made exc<'.pt in unusual circumstances. Instead there •ri 11 b e tHo types of lease, long-term lease of fifty years or short-term lease of fifteen years. This T'rovides sufficiently lonr,-terrn tenure of the land to satisfy most lending institutions and provision is made for the mmer of thP. lease to transfer it to other farming interests so that his invest- ment jn development of tl!P land is protected.

At the same time !!;Overnment's investment in these lands in the form of land clearing grants, land fertility assiRtance and so on \·Till he protected as well. So in other Hords instead of a grant in the future there <dll he a fifty year long-term lease, no grant,and that lease is renewable, is assignable, can be solc1, passed on and so on. All government is trying to cln is tn insure the continuation of that land in apricnlture. I can say now for the pu1>lic record that it is not government's intention to give somebody land for fifty ye;~rs, then to take it away if that land is used for agriculture .

The lease, t h e land - tlR. COLLINS: The lease can be sold, not the land. :m . RllUSSEAU: No, the lease can be sold, not the land, of course. But it is p,overnment's intention to maintain this land in agriculture.

As long as t l ll~ land r e mains in a(\riculture then the person Hho ltas the lease may sell t he lease, may transfer the lease, may pass it on to his children and so on. l'.ut t ill' intention of government in this instance. is to insure that the land whic't is given out for ap:ricultural use only - 1~e are not talking about other Crm·m l<md but talkinp, about land that is used for agriculture - Hill remain in a griculture. There arf' certain other conditions attached tc this and of cnurse t h ese 1':i J 1 be made available in the near future to the people.

P. nt t1,is :is tT-,e nr" rolicy of government in respect to leases for agricultural lnncl in the Prov:inc<'. :rn. SPEAiG:r. (Dr. Collins): The hon. Leader o~ the Dpposition. '~r. ~neaker, we have listene<l to the minister's statement Hi th interest. If HC follo~; correctly what is a technical matter I think ~:c ·.-.rnulrt agree '''it" t)lo mair. points of the policy he is outlining. I think 3190

:•arch ll! , l'l](, . liR . ROBEJlTS: Tape 1207 lUI - 3 anyhody 1oho is the least hit concerned with the development of agricultu re 1.n t his Province can only welcome IUIY steps which to~ould preserve what ap,ri cultural land we have, preserve it for a~ricultural purposes. Of course, we all·· know that there have been any number of instances where land has hccn acoui red quite properly under so-called agr i cul tura l leases,and <tA3in quito prop ecly under the terms of the conveyances from the Crown A11ortly t hereafte r has ceased to be used for a~tricultural purposes.

If t 11e ministe r' s nP.v policy that he has announc ed will help to remedy t hat sJ tuation then it is very welcome. t would make one COIIU!lent on that and one fur ther sugges tion if I l"lt,ht, ''r. Speake r. 3191

March 18, 1976 Tape No. 1208 NM- 1 "'R. ROBERTS: First of all the comment I would make is with respect to the ability of the man taking that lease, the lesee, the lesee under the fifty year lease to use the land as security for loans and for, well indebtness of all sort. I think this is an important point. I would merely bring it to the minister's ·attention. It may not he enough merely to say that the land can be assigned and dealt with. The leasehold interest in the land can be assigned or dealt with.

Any number of mortgagers, people Who lend money, will not look upon a man or a company that has a fifty year leasehold interest in a piece of land as having adequate security. I think that is a point. The way out of that might be to do what the St. John's Housing Corporation have done all these years and that is not convey land freehold, but instead convey land on 999 year leases which are regarded by breathern, at the Bar downtown and by those who have money to lend, are being regarded as in every way comparable for an absolute freehold interest. My second point, Mr.

Speaker, would be with respect to the continuing disappearance of agricultural land in this Province. We have a very limited amount of agricultural land. We cannot make any more. lve might be able to bring more into production, but what potentially arable land there is is all there is. And we all know that particularly in and around the St. John's area, much of the land continues to be converted from agricultural purposes into usually residential purposes, sometimes commercial. A few years ago the ministry announced a land freeze which was both wise and foolish. It had wise points, it had foolish points.

But I wonder if the minister, Mr. Speaker, and this may not be the place to do it, but certainly when he comes to his estimates we will be asking him about this, if he can outline in some details the plans the ministry have to cope with this. Because although that freeze was announced three or four years ago it has not succeeded. It has caused a certain amoWlt of hardship. It has not, as I understand it, prevented 'the disappearance of agricultural land, particularly 3192

Harch 18, 1976 Tape No. 1208 N}< - 2 ~m. ROBERTS: in the St. John's area, and I am thinking again particularly of the area to the West of St. John's, the Old Bay Bulls Road and the Bay Bulls Road itself and of course the route of the much maligned, infamous arterial. I think that should be a major item of public policy, ~r. Speaker, because without land we have no prospect at all of an agricultural industry. ~. ROUSSF.AU: If I may I can answer the questions immediately. The hon. Leader of the Opposition brings up the fifty year lease, Hr.

Speaker, which is satisfactory to the banks, the lendinp. institutions and so on, !hat is why we took the term of fifty years. There is only one problem in that and that problem is with the Federal Farm Loan Corporation.

Now what we are doing as an exception to this lease is that under only one condition, that is under the requirements of the Farm Credit Loan Corporation, a federal body, that we will give a grant where a farmer has money available from that group and he needs a grant for that, we will give the minimum amount of land required to satisfy the requirements of that grant,but we will continue to press Ottawa to have that federal loan become available even though the land is under lease and not under grant.

And it certainly would be our intention to continue pressing Ottawa and hope that Ottawa would come along with us,and if not , of course,as I say,we will give that minimum amount of land, necessary for that loan that may be available to them,as a grant. But I wish to assure the hon. House that the fifty year term is long enough and satisfies most lending insitutions. MR. SPEAKER (DR, COLLINS): The hon. aember for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, there is a lot of common sense in what the minister has said. There is a lot of common sense in the ideas that h~ has expressed.

I would like more time to think about them, however. I would like more time to examine them ~~~ consider the various repercussions. I am aot sure that a man would be happy to develop a farm knowing that he and hiR family were going to have possession of it only for a maximum of fifty years. If it is fifty 3193

arch 18, 1976 Tape No • 1208 ID-1 - 3 l!R. SMALLWOOD: years renewable,an.d if the terms of the renwal are set forth and are w:mdstalQ!ble so that the renawal is not at the whim of some government fifty years hence, perhaps that would be all right provided the other matters affecting it are alsp all right and there are other matters as the Leader of the Opposition has just said.

Now, in England for a good many years now, at least since t:he end of tbe first tol'orld War, there has been a lo,t of bitterness feeling about the degree, the extent to which farm lands have ceased to be farm lands and have become the subject or the scene of housing development and urban development of one kind and another, factories, new towns spd.nging up. Harlow for example, Harlow ., 3194

~.·Jd ch is cme of five ~n::mc1 ne~: towns that hco.ve been cre2teft snrrottncl:lnp.

JC'nclnn ·· :•a,·J<'u i~ t.rC' r>ne •·:lth ,.,h:lc 11 T.orcl "'ayl<"r "'"'' ~o int~"'1'te1y associated - they are towns that have been built on land that was ert:lreJy 1\fr:lrn'tnrnJ lnnd. f..nd aJ1 nver rnglnnc1,nnd to ~r>"'e extent ~cntla'1r1 ;md '~n]e~,<>. tre'IT'enr1ous acre<~?,e of faJ'1"lanc' 11ns disappearer' fro'IT' far!"1nr and rone into urban purposes, housinr, iricustr:l nJ nncl airports and nlJ lcinc's r>f pt1rposes,so that tho;> rec'nct:lon i.n thC' nc:ttt."11 nn!"~er of nc.res of <tr11hle lanc'l 2nd cnlt:lv::ltec' 1 ~nc' is a] most frirht<'n:inp; in :1 c:onntry tl1e size 0f England.

T:'hen yon coT"e to l·le~.,foundl:tncl, a Uny Tsl;md Tdth o:ln almost i.nsir;nificant proport:lon o" its cnltivnt.nbJe 'nnd under cnJt:lvat:lon,and that, ne:1rly alJ of it, al<'np sir'P 't. .John's or soT"e other. to~m, then of co11r!le taldnr :1 t ;n.rav fro., ~'nTT" purpo!les 11nc' ns:lnf! :It f0r hC'us:!ng•' '·h:lch an awful 1 "t of it has been and :! s l•einp 11se<'l to Clay - you go :In "1 c' Petty ''nr~our "oacl, vou ro :In .:~11 the roa.c!s 1 eac':lnr, out of r.t.

John's anr1 vou "ec 1> trel"lenclous hous1nr clevelopnent on land that ~Jas once f:~Tl'>l ;mel, you her:!n to real:lze how much fan" I and. has disappeared. ()n tile other hancl, the to'm has got to p:r.ow. People l"'USt h11ve h0rnes. "ouses have rot to be buj_] t. Inc1nstrial sttes l1ave r,ot to be cTE~:ltec'.

"actor~es l1ave got to he 1m:llt,anc't :l.f the only l:mcl on which alJ thnt c:;~n he clone happens tc> he fa~l;md near the cHy it :! s rep:ret11hle ~nc' sives r5 se to the next po:lnt, •·•hich is this; th.~t s11relv the 0nJv ];mc:l that Ci\n be f:1rmcc1 ir, n0t Janel tl1at i ~ '·' tl• fr sight of the city of St.

John's. ••1 •(' ;~the hon. ?Pnt1CT"rln'F preOP.ce~sC~r, thC' prPRC"Ot '"'in-'ster of "rmpc"·'er, 1·'he:l hP ~''ils ,.,jni ster, ~·hen he ~ .•as expla:lrdng this pol iey r>f 1 ancl free?e <1ronnc' <:t. .John's - "P, SPE,'J~T'P (.,.,r, f:o1J:ins): Clrc'er, please! -'-'-'-"-';.;..T..:.I;.;.. ~_~r...:.0_"...;::......._ - nnd T ·Frl s f:\stounifef'. ""' ~T'F.M~J'P (nr. r01J:In"'': f'rclcr, please! "" PV.T.L C::: To t' pnint of" orc'er.. J al"' sure, "~r. fr.eakE"r, t-l ·. E' hon. ""'"''>er :Is JTT<~ldnr, excellent po:f.ntr; and that,hllt :'l.S comment on 'l 3195

'I.!.'": "•ini~t~ri~l ~t.ntcr~nt T trink thnt he ifi realJv going on too lonr -.n,• ~~t<'rin:o intl' <'cl,:~te nncl I ~·C'uld brinr. t ll(l t to the hon. :"'('""'hcr' !l "tt<-ntinn. .. ,. • S' ';\J,Y.''('II'ln · ,.~~' "-ell , '"r. ~peaker, ro th<:t roint of nr,•c .. . l rlti.nf the !•C'n . /'E'Ot lCl"On is Jlhf:Olu t ely Tl/' ht .

Jr :f "' <! l"llt t <>r nn d 1ich T r eel ,.,.ry l'r<1er>t in"eecl nnd there .,.·jll !>e ll be tter opportunit'"• tt!l the T.<'Rf'er c-f the> l'lppc>~ti rion l'aid , .... hen the> hon . gen t leman's estiiT'a.tes t'OI"'C r_..efore the !1<>USC M'~ l~!"!nre 1 ~.'i.ll pc;>r h:lpR not he !':C' lil"IHCcl 1n the, too li!"'iterl to cleal aclequately •··ith :> tcrribl y i~portiUlt t"at t er. T ac r cpt rh<> pr-i nt qf l'rrlcr nnd Jet it f" at thnt . ""ar , "e.nr ! In r E'(:arf' t<> the point of orrlcr it ltas hl'en acleouately ta~P.n care nf . Are there further Ministerial statements? ,., 1-T'!L<:: !:o .

TI1is is a sl'lall point of pe rsonal p rivi1e c<> , •·r. Spe.:.ker . Jt ''"as just rlr:l'-'Tl to MY nttent:!on by a rcpresent:>ti?e of ""he r.vE'ninr Telesrar.- and "" :>polozy at the s~ ti~, t hat a hPn<'l ine "" pare 3 nf the telP.l't'· 1lll at tributer' to l"e •;orclF that •·P.rP. 11ctucoll •· spnJr.en hy the hnn . rreml)er frol'1 T,11l'c:-i1e (''r. tre!lry) in rhe qu estion pcr1o<' yN<t er<"<'y . !'o T wnuld J]Jre to ]1 rin~ rh1s to r ht• :ottl'nti(ln of ~ l · t> I"C'11RC.

The Tele gram 1'1'1' l'lt"E':tf'\" arC'lnrizetl . •. ,. l!f'"Y: to/hat is :In rhc head] ine? ,..., ''F.J..T,~: ""• it is •" hcaoil~ne ···hic h s;oy!' ," I'P.]l!i fur.~c!'t!' "nu "rc '11 <\fr:t1cl "f 1\rlf'y . Tn !''let H ":ll" t!H! • ··r:•,"Y: J t:>Y.e fnl1 r.rec'it. . ''T' .,.,..,.15: " " t.he ho:- . t"CI"l-er fnr T,:U'ni ) c ('" r . '1e<>ry) r"!re~ full crPr'1r r.rcl T , • ..,11~<" <'!"' •I ;or ~he ':'"elecr31'1, '"r. :Open! c r, rnb 'i~' '" .~ rt'~rer.tion ,.,~ thl't. f'rr'er, please!

"n t '·e rrdnt of f''":fvi.le:-c ndseil, th<F f('l 11' irt<' th,. cnt~:-rr•· ,..r o;-nrrc~'tinr Ft-"tC"'Cnt~ nttri hutP.rl tc- hon. r <>-.b~rr. l'.n'' this •so rlnl;· 3196

t:lkr>n note (\r . Arc then• furthe r r.dniste r :!al staterents? sr".~' T.n. ("'r . f"<'llJns): The hon . ll'el"b:!r fCir Lal'oile. ' "' 'ffi '"Y: T • ...,uld ) i ke t.o pr esent n n1n1 pet:! t:fon (\n beha l f of sh: rcsi rants o( ~'ouch r.ovP. in the eli str:l ct of St . John ' s F.ast Extern , r thin k H fs. -he pr-'lyer of. the pe t itjon , Sir , is , t.oe the unc!ers:frne<' .1pplaur your eff(\ rts in Rttcmpth'& to holt' the J :ina on ~t>~r foun c!l;mct T.i,y.l:t :mel Po\··er C"oJ~:p an y r ate increaRe~:. or nhout 40 pe r cent - Sm1E liON • ~1EMBERS : Oh , oh !

"" · ~m ·rY: J beg yocr pnrc'on? ,.,. rnf1~lHF.: r o a~my , ' f.teve ' . 1'1" . 'l':A"Y: :i(\ , :r. nM serious . f~; ·~,.,: · . ' 'E''llf~: '!hat is not a petH 1 on.

Consi .derin& nn :!ncrense >'ell Phat is it H it is not a pet:ftiCin? ' 'Conside ring an incrense of abou t 40 per cent alrea•'Y in effect , He vir.<'TO\tSl:V pr:Citest any f\trthcr increnses for at least tuo or three ycarR.'' r.ut, Sir , in s upport i nr. the prayer of this min:i pe.t i t ion,I al'l' p1casec! to nCite, "r. $penker, that the t r el'lenc'ouR T;eAfl<'nse of peti t i('ns and inc'iv:!c'ual pr otests t o unfa:lr ancl 1mreal:fstic Pnc' unjustifiable anc' in~ cec! unexpect e c' rate increnses in elect r :fci t y , •·r . Spe<>.ker, S('eM!; to have borne so!"fl fruit. 3197

'larch 18, 1976 Tape 1210 PK - 1 ;1R. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The han. Minister of Touri sm. l lON • T • lliCKEY : Hr. Speaker, I would certainly like to add my support to the petition, inasmuch as, I am sure, all han. members in the Eouse feel •..re would love to reduce the rates of electricity i n t he Province. And maybe this is an indicati on of how many supporters of the Lib e ral Party are in Pouch Cove, but that sounds good if that is the case. I am very proud to represent Pouch Cove for . the fir s t time. And, Hr.

Speaker, I would say that if the hon. member can find alternate sources of power cheaper than the ones we can find I am sure 1ve ~rill all be very happy about that. HR . MURPHY: Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS OF S~DINC AND SELECT CO~fr1ITTEES }ffi. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. }1R . ROUSSEAU: Hr. Speaker, no way am I going to sit down! This is heavy stuff today. This is the regulation in respect to parking at the College of Fisheries, which I am required to table in the House. AN RON . HE~ffiER : What is that? MR. ROUSSEAU: Parking regulations at the College of Fisheries.

I have to table them, apparently. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr. COLLINS): The han. House Leader. NR. HELLS: Ur. Speaker, I hope this is the appropriate time to do · this, but I wis h to move the appointment of the han. the member from Harbour Grac e to be Deputy Chairman of Committees in this House. SOME liON. }1EMBERS: Hear, hear! Hurrah! ~JR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, I thank the han. gentleman. Just before the House met he came to me and told me tha t he intended to make this motion. I thank him for doing me that much courtesy.

That was the extent of the consultation. Sir, seconded by the Member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) I move that the member from St . John's North (11r. J. Carter) to take the Chair of this House as Deputy Chairman of Committees. 3198

March 18, 1976 Tape 1210 PK - 2 SOME HON. MEHBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that according to Parliamentary practice it is not possible to decline a nomination of this sort, Sir. MR. J. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have not been consulted. I certainly decline. smm HON. NID!BERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I presume this is a debatable motion, Your Honour? ~fR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A point of order has been raised by the hon. Member from St. John's North, I believe. And are you responding to that point of order? MR.

NEARY: No, Sir. I would like to debate the motion. PRIDIIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, I would like to second the nomination of the member from Harbour Grace. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): It has been moved and seconded that- MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is a debatable motion, I presume? MR. ROBERTS: It is notice of motion at this stage as far as I know, and it is debatable. MR. NEARY: Well, Nr. Speaker, I am inclined to agree with the Leader of the old-line Liberal Pa=ty, Sir, that usually before appointments of this nature are made in this bon.

House, Sir, it has been the tradition, I suppose as far as the Parliamentary system was se t up, that all the parties in the House would get their heads together and there would be agreement before the motion would be brought into the House. Since the P .C. Administration took over in this Province, Sir, they seem to be getting away from that tradition.

Today we are told by the Leader of the Opposition that only moments before the House met this afternoon, the government House Leader came over and told the Leader of the Opposition that the member from Harbour Grace was going to be the Assistant Deputy Speaker or Chairman of Committees in this hon. House. 3199

March 18, 197~, Tape 1211, Page 1 -- aph '1R. NEARY: I doubt very much if the government House Leader hac' the courtesy to even mention it to the Leader of the T.ihera1 Peform Party. I doubt it,although I do not have to speak fnr the Leader of the Liberal Reform Party. I can speak for myself, and I think it is about time, Sir, that the government House Leader hegan to realize that there are traditions in this hon, Tlouse that should he maintained.

The member for Tt.1illingate c~r. '>mal] tvood) used to always remind us 'when the hon. member was T'remier of th1.s Province, of the tradition of wearing a hat in the hon. Honse, an<l the hon, member used to insist every session of the House that one member, at least,during the session '""ar his hRt in 0rder to maintain - '!R. '-'ITI"RPHY: ~ffi. NEARY: Th~t ts pretty heavy business. No, Sir, this is heavy business. It is a matter of principle.

Th<' member used to insist that one member at least wear a hat in orrlcr tn l'lRtntain that tradition. ~'ot·J we find, Sir, that the r,overnmept in nower are p,etting away fron tradition. They f<><'1 thRt tl,ev n0 lnnrer should have prior consultation •·rith tl1e on~o~jtton nartins. 'ffi • NlHl.PTTY : Are ••e able to debate that matter? 'ffi. NEARY: Yes,you can debate this. This is a debatable motion. XR . MC1RGAN: A debatable motion? 'ffi. NEARY: Yes,it is debatable. This is debatable. If it "'"" not debatable the S!'eaker would rule me out of order. ~1r.

Speaker, I think these traditions should be preservec1, I am surnrised that a just and honourable man, a man of integrity ]ike the government llouse Learler,should choose to ignore these traditions. ~!e have nothing against the member for Harbour r.race (' 1r. Younp;), Sir. He have nothing in this world - '!R. :-!ORGA~T: nn a point of order, Sir. SOI1F HON, '~FRS : Oh, oh! HR . ROllF.RTS: m. MURPITY: He is ST'!eaking to a point of order, He is not. 3200

~~rch 18, 197~. Tape 1211, Page 2 -- apb "'R. ~nRC:AN: 'fr. Speaker. No. Mr. Speaker, a question for explanation from the r.hair, Sir. The hon. gentleman now speaking, is he speaking to a point of order or the motion that ~>as r,iven notice of? MR. SPF.AKF.R: Order, please! It is my unrlerstanding that the han. member for LaPoile is not speakinp. to a point of order. I asked him that question and he indicated that he wished to speak to the motion before the House. I might point out that the motion before the House deals with the management of the business of the Rouse and as such it is a debatable motion. "'R.

ROBERTS: 'fR. NEARY: We will all get into it now. ~r. Speaker, the point that I was making, Sir, when I was so rudely interrupted by the Minister of Transportation and Communications 1 is that if we vote now, if we on this side vote against the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) we are going to look petty and childish and immature 1 and there will be all kinds of accusations and charges made by the other side that we are prejudice against the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young). MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. Speaking to a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Point of order.

The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is indicating that he is speaking to the motion. There is no motion on the floor onlv - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: \'1R. F.B.ROWE: interrupted. MR. MORGAN: HR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, may I have silence please! Order, please! Of course not. Why not? He was on a point of order before you I am makin2 a Point of order. Order, please! A point of order has been raised. The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. 3201

flarch 18, 1976, Tape 1211, Page 3 -- apb MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, my point of order is this. The han. p,entleman has given the indication he is speaking to the motion. There is no motion on the floor - MR. SMALLWOOD: There is. HR. MORGAN: - only notice given of a l'l.otion to be brought into the llouse. MR. ROBERTS : To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman from LaPoile has clearly indicated,and Your Honour has already ruled that he is speaking to a point of order. Now his remarks may be a little longer - 1\.ffi. ~PEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! HR.

ROBERTS: I am speaking to the point of order. Is Your Honour going to hear that side and not this side? MR. SPEAKER: May I just make my previous remarks clear? I indicated that I understood that the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) was speaking to the motion,not to the point of order. I had asked him was he speaking to the point of order and he indicated to the contrary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, there is no motion before the House.

The han. gentleman is speaking to the point of order raised by some han. member opposite and in due course we are all going to have a crack at the point of order if it is in order for us to do so. I mean, it is an important point of order. I might add that citatinn 27 of Beauchesne, Your Honour, which I have no doubt the Clerk has brought to Your Honour's attention, on page 21 makes it quite clear that the procedure which we are to follow at the appropriate time.

But all my friend is doing,as I understood it, is protesting the indifference of the government House Leader towards thetraditions of this !louse and indicating that there is a matter - MR. CROSBIE: How childish! ~ffi. ROBERTS: I am speaking to a point of order. If the hon. the ge:ntleman from St. John's \\1est (Mr. Crosbie) does not like it let him get up in his turn and speak. HR. CROSBIE: Speak as much as you like. 3202

March 18, 1976 Tape No. 1212 NM - 1 }ffi, ROBERTS: I thank the hon. gentleman, Sir. I do not speak hy his leave. He barely speaks by the leave of his constituents. If there had been another week he would not have spoken by their leave, Mr. Speaker. But the point is, Sir, there is a point of order before the House.

Your Honour is entertaining submissions on that point of order, and after we dispose of the point of order raised by the Minister of Transportation and Communications there are a number of us, Sir, who would like to get into the point of mrder raised,! believe,by the House Leader, but I am not sure, raised by some hon. gentleman opposite as to whether or not the motion which I moved that the hon. gentleman from St.

John's North- and I fear I have not had the time to consult him and he may well wish to decline, He cannot decline but if elected of course he could resign his position forthwith,but under the Parliamentary system there is no way you can decline a nomination-and I normally would have consulted him but in view of the fact the House Leader gave us no time at all I had no choice, no ,choice at all but to make my motion, Because, Sir, we on this side do not feel that we can support the gentleman from Harbour Grace to be Deputy Chairman of Committees of this House. It is that simple. ~~.

WELLS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker; the whole point I think comes down to this,that the government of the dey is the one that moves the appointment of the neputy Chairman ~. ROBERTS; No, Sir~ mt. WELLS: Not the government,but it comes from this side. The member ~·ho will serve is someone who will sit on this side. Now we can cut out I think all the chatter on this 1but it comes down to our proposing a man and in the end we will vote on it. If they do not want to support him, Hr. Speaker, that is fine. But we will vote. }<11. s·~ALLHOOn: Mr. Speaker, I can throw, I think HR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate 3203

"arch 18, 197fi Tape No. 1212 rm. S}<ALLWOOD: I thinl~, Hr. Speaker, that I can throw a little light on this matter, For twenty-three year s in the Chamber I had, as J.eader of the Government, the choice of the Speaker, and invariably I informed the Leader of the Opposition of the government's choice,and invariably the Leader of the Opposition seconded the motion that I made - t\.l'l HON. ~'!ID'llER: Hear ! Hear! ~~. SMALU70nn: - that so and so be Speaker.

But, Sir, never once in twenty-three years did I consult anyone outside the Cabinet and our own caucus as to who should be Deputy Speaker or Chairman of Commi.ttees. Not once! SOI-m liON. tiDIBERS: Hear! Hear! HR. S}IALLWOOD: Now whatever the House does in any case I will personally vote for the hon. gentleman from Harbour Grace. But that is only hecause he has been nominated,or is about to be nominated by the government which I think it is the government's right to do.

And not only their right but their duty to do,and I have never known an opposition in twenty-three years to be consulted on any office in this Chamber other than the office of Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition always helped, seconded the motion, that he be Speaker, and then help to drag him from his place to the Chair. But all the other officers were entirely at the option of the government. S O~ HON. ~ERS: Oh, oh! rill .• Sl-!ALLRnnn: 'Steve' that was the case. HR . ROI·/E : !-'r. Speaker - MP, . SPEAKER (nl?. COLLrNS) : The han. member for Trinit y - Bay de Verde. To the point of order, Mr.

Speaker, and with respect to what the ftovernment House Leader said in that the government chooses the Speaker 1 J would like to refer to Beauchesne, page twenty-two PREHJER ~ OORES: Nominates him, not chooses. J."R. ROWE: Sir, it says that, "The choice ~ .• ROBERTS: Read the Beauchesne! MR. ROWE: - of Speaker is the choice of this House. The House chooses 3204

March 18, 1976 Tape No. 1212 NM - 3 MR. ROWE: and elects its Speaker; he is in no sense the choice of the government - ~~. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear! MR. 'ROWE: - in no sense the choice of the Prime Minister." Now, Sir , this was precisely the opposit~ of what th.e bon. the House Leader has just said. AN RON. MEMBER: Nominate him. ~m. ROBERTS; Trying to ram your man through! No respect! }fR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Ord,r, please! UR. LUNDRIGAN: 'Fred' is that the Speaker you are talking about? MR .• SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! Order, please! In these somewhat un.usual circumstances I am recessing the House for five minutes in order to take counsel. We will reconvene in five minutes. 3205

Hareh 18, 1CJ7n. Tape 12D ":.11 - 1 ~'!!..:_ SPEAKT:l': (llr. '~ollins): Order, please'! T thanl< th~ hon. members of the J!ousc for a1lowinr us to confer over this Matter which I am sure h11s ~een confusinR to many, The point at issue here reallv ts "hether there is a motion before the floor or a point of order. llavinr; considered the question it i.s mv understanding thnt t~l,ere;~s a name pl<~ced in nomination for a ~peill:.er, that hon. member may not decJine that nomination.

We have no nrr•ceclent to state t"lat an hon. member's name nlilct><l in nomination for Dermty Chairman of Commt ttees and Debates, 1-1e have no precedent for tal;ing it t 1>at such a p<"rson may not decline. Therefore we c~tn underst;md th:1t an !-ton. memh0r' s name placed in nomination for such a post mny decline. It is my understanding,therefore,that when the hon. member for St. John's North inclicated that he was declining the nomination, that that terminated the point of order.

The <juestion hefor~ the !louse at that point "as the motion put forward '•y the hon. !louse LeadPr find to Hhich the hen. member from Lal'oil e indicated he wished to sp~:11:, and the Chair permitted him to speak. So the present «ltuntion is tll!'lt thero i.s a motion before the T!ouse nominating - ~H~. ROr.l'RTS: !·:o, notico of nomination. 'HL ST'fA!'8''R : J nncler~tRnd that the wordinr, Has that there was nomination hefore the House, not notice that such a nomination would be - l1R. P.0BFRTS: :''r. Speaker, on a point of order, if I may. Sir, I understoon it was a notice - NR. SPEAKER (Dr.

Collins): Order, please! May I just finish my remarks and then possibly entertain a point of order. Therefore the motion hefore the House at this point •·ms the nomination put fonmrd by the h"on. Fouse Leader that the hon. mer;her for !!arbour Grac~ bC' th~ Deputy Chairm<m of Committees and :l,,bates and tl>at t>l~tt motion \vas heing c.lchate'l and up· to t:1at time only Ol\C name .-.'as in nominntion. This Jj,] not preclude · other names r,oinr, into nonination. nut before the House '""s a motion t~~at the 110n. member for Tlarl"Jour GraceU'r. Young) be nominaten and tl>at tl,e l,on. 3206

i 'arc 1l 1·'1, 1'J7(•. ~'R. f:PEN~FR: Tape 1213 Rll - 2 lilrmher for T .. 1"o11e(llr. 'lc'lry) <~as enga~inA on t lw <li.scusl"ion or that motion. This is a motion that has to do 'vith the management of the affairs of t }lC Ilousc and is therefore dehatab1e. ROBERTS: Hr. Spea ker, on a point of order, Sir. A point of order has been raised . The hon. Leader of the Oprosition. 3207

Harch 18, 1976 Tape 1214 (Afternoon) IB-1 HR. ROBERTS: Hy understanding is that there is not a motion before the !louse, Sir, that the House Leader rose when Your Honour called the Orr1ers of the Day that said Notice of }fotion, and I am not sure \vhat \vords he used 0 but at Notice of Motion time obviously, Your Honour, all that can be given is a Notice of Motion.

Since this is a substantive motion,as Your Honour has ruled,because only substantive motions can be debated - I do not have the precise Standing Order here - but all substant:l_ve motions, Sir, unless there is unanimous consent,require twenty-four hours notice on the Order Paper. Hy point of order simply is that this is a Notice of l~otion. It should surely stand in the name of the bon. gentleman, the House Leader on the government side,and then whenever the government so wish,given twenty-four notice,they can call it. But I would submit, Sir, it is not in order to debate this motion at this time.

The Standing Order is 29, for leave to present a Bill, resolution or address. So I submit it is to be taken as notice and in due course when the goverment wish it could be called,and if it "is debatable it can be debated and then in due course the matter will be resolved by the House. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. House Leader. ~ffi • WELLS : llr. Speaker, my intention and as I understand it, as I am told and as the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) has said, that the tradition in this House is that these things have not been treated as a Notice of Motion but have been simply moved and dealt with.

This is the first time that something like this has arisen. If the bon. member opposite believed that this was simply a Notice of Notion, then his response to i!: was absolutely inexcusable if that is what he believes. ~m. ROBEPJS : It is not the same notice. lffi. WELLS: But this was intended to be not a Notice of Notion but a motion, Mr. Speaker, which,as I say, by the tradition of this House has always been dealt lvith and never been argued about in this, what I consider, disgraceful fashion. PREMIER MOORES: Absolutely~ Hear, hear! S0}1> HON . r'E~'BFT'S: !lear, he11r! 3208

March 18, 1976 Tape 1214 (afternoon) IB-2 t:P. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins) : Order, please: To clear up one point of confusion - and we could go back to the tapes on this point if necessary - I had not in fact called Notice of Hotion. I had called Presenting Reports of Standing and Select CommHtees. Before calling Notice of Motion the bon. House Leader arose to put forward this motion. It 1>1as out of order in that case. NR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Would you permit me just to consult with the clerk of the House over one matter briefly? MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please!

It is my information that elections to these positions have in the past - and we have precedent for this,therefore - that this matter has been dealt with as a motion put forward without the necessity of going through the procedure of first giving Notice of Motion. r.an you imagine r,ivinp, notice of ~otjon to se1ect a Speaker: MR. NEAP.Y: Mr. Speaker, I have nothing, Sir, against the hon. member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young). The hon. member and I have been personal friends for a long time.

But what I am opposed to, Sir, is the high-handed way in which the government is trying to ram this appointment through the House and a lot of contempt, Sir, for the House. SOME RON. ME~mERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) tried to whip the carpet right out from under my feet by saying that when the hon. gentleman was Premier that he just nominated So-and-So and there was not prior consultation. That does not make it right, Sir. It does not make it right. The hon. member could have been wrong. ~!R. ~~ORGAN: It is parliamentary procedure.

No, .it i!' not parliamentary procedure, Sir, it is a ~atter of courtesy, Mr. Speaker. The government House Leader should approach the Leader of the Official Opposition, the Leader of the Liberal Reform Party and myself as the leader of the Independent

~larch 18, 19 76 Tape 1214 (afternoon) IB-3 ~!R. NEARY: Liberal Party in this hon. nouse. And the Premier shakes his head and says, no. Well I have got a little more experience in parliamentary procedure than the hon. the Premier. PRE."1ER ~:OO R.ES : You would never know it . MR. NEAR1! I think, Sir -Mr. Speaker, what is the hurry? lo/hat is the hurry to do this? 1-1hy could the government House Leader not have come to the l eaders of 3210

March 18, 1976 Tape 1215 PK - 1 Nr. Neary: the parties on this side of the House? PREHIER HOORES: IVould you do the same thing for the Speaker,wait for two days and a notice of motion before you had one? MR. ROBERTS: You have always consulted me before. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we have been without an assistant Deputy Chairman in this House,for what? MR. ROBERTS: Ten days. MR. NEARY: Ten days. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR. NEARY: So why all of a sudden does it become urgent? Why do we have to rUsh it through now? PREMIER MOORES: Why hang it up? AN RON. MEMBER: Why not do it last week? MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, what I am objecting to - }ffi. WELLS: It is our choice. AN RON. HEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: - it is not the bon. member from Harbour Grace, is that the whole matter was not handled in a proper way, in my opinion. And the bon. member from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) may disagree me on that. I'REMIER MOORES: He does. MR. NEARY: Well that is his perorgative as a member of this hon. House. But I think, Sir, that we should have a little more co-operation and a little more prior consultation on matters concerning this House before appointments are made. So therefore, Mr.

Speaker, I am going to vote against the motion just on general principles alone, not that I have anything against the member, I Nant to repeat that, Sir. I think he is a fine gentleman, Sir. But if the government had handled this matter in the right and proper way without any contempt for the other members of this hon. House - PREMIER MOORES: Move on. 3211

March 18, 1976 Tape 1215 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: No I am not going to move up, Hr. Speaker, I MR. MORGAN: Re is weaseling his way back in again. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I made a statement when I got elected as an independent that I would vote for the government when I thought they did things right and proper, and I would give them a flick when I did not think they were doing things right and proper, and I would vote with the Opposition or !.would give them a flick. MR. MORGAN: Begging your way again, boy. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I am not begging anything. NR. MO~GAN : Yes you are. ~Ut.

NEARY: I am just standing on my principles. ~MORGAN: Begging your way in again. HR. NEARY: S'tanding on my principles, Ur . Speaker. And I think the government should be ashamed of themselves to have the poor old member from Harbour Grace plar.P.cl jn an embarrassing position - SOUE HON. MEMBERS: : Oh, oh! HR. NEARY: ------ Placed in an embarrassing position SOME RON. MEHBER: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: in this hon. House, Sir. Just because they did not have the decency and the courtesy to come and consult with the various leaders on this side of the House. So I am going to vote - MR.

DOODY: This is the way it was always done. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am -no, probably it was done before, Sir. MR. DOODY: Of course it was. The fact that it was done before does not make it right. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 'fR. NEARY: There were a lot of things that Wf!re done before that t he member for St. John's East was telling us yesterday that were not right and proper , accordinf. to his thinking. AN HON • ID!Ilf.R: Right. :>IF.. NEARY: Well, Sir, it just so happens that I have a great deal of respect for this Rouse. 'IR. DOODY: Because of you we cannot get anything done in the House. 3212

Harch 18, 1976 Tape 1215 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: --- ---- The hon. rnPmber can get up and speak now as soon as I take my seat. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: And I want to see things done right and proper, Sir, in this hon. House. And I do not '~ant to see our democratic system or democracy eroded in any way, shape or form. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: The whole matter could have been resolved, Sir, by the government House Leader,who in this case has made a faux pas, who has goofed.by just coming across and speaking to the various leaders of the parties on this side of the House,including myself.

AN HON. MEMBER: No fears! MR. NEA~Y: I think I have a fair following outside of this House. AN liON. ~fEMBER: Over here. MR. SMALLWOOD: They are a long ways away. MR. NEARY: And so, Sir, I am going to vote against, not against the hon. member, I want to make that clear, Hr. Speaker - SmfE HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: I am not voting against the hon. member from Harbour Grace, I am just voting against this on general principles. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Are we addressing a motion now or a point of order1 AN HON. MEMBER: We are addressing a motion. MR.

DOODY: To the motion before the floor. Hell, Sir, it is very rarely in this House when I get exercised. to the point that I am now,that I get to my feet on, on what appears to me to be something that is absolutely outside the bus.iness that we were sent here to perform. I have seen some pretty pathetic and some pretty sad exhibitions in this House, but I never thought that I would live to see the day - AN liON. ME~IBER: Hear, hear! MR.

DOODY: -when a nomination of an hon. member of this House. representing one of the greatest and the most historic district of this Province,has been dragged out into the open and made a stomping 3213

Harch 18, 1976 Tape 1215 PK - 4 Mr. Doody; ~rou nd bec ause of a petty, miserable, political, childish, idiocy, ~()MP. HON . ~Bf:RS: !lea r, hear! HR. DOODY: as a bunch of immature children across the House. SOME HON. Ml!>'U3ERS: Hear, hear ! MR . DOODY: l1r. Speak.er , I want to talk a!;lout various points that have been r aised here today - MR . SUII'IONS: Si r, on a point of order. ~m. . S_P~ (DR. COLLTIIS): Order, please! A point of order has lleen raised. MR. SIMMONS: Hr . Speaker, the Minister of Finance is ent itled to participate in t he deba te as well as all of us arc , but he cannot, ~ r.

Speaker, unde r the rules of the Uouse attribute motives , malign us i n the most cowardly manners he has in the past few minutes . ~1R . MORGAN: That is not a point of order. HR. Snll'10NS: He is assinging, Mr. Speaker, - AN liON. ~!EMBER: Bunkum! SOHF liON. MENBt:RS: Oh , oh! 'tR . f:U~!ONS : ~l r. Speaker, the !tinister of Fin ance has just assigned fnlse motives to us, and talks about - AN liON . "!f .. XIB£R: Stand up vhen you are addressing the Chair. NR . Sll1NONS: political opportunities. Again I am not going to sit here ond take t hat kind of thing. The 3214

~arch 18, 1~7~, Tape 1216, Page l -- apb MR. Sn1MONS: rules of the House protect me from that kind of thing and 1 invite ~Tr. Speaker, to remind the Hinister of Finance of the rules nf the !louse and ask him to abide by them like the rest of us have to do. SOME HON. ME~ffiERS : Hear, hear! ~'[R. DOODY : Mr. Speaker, if I have attributed intelligence or lack of it to any hon. member,! retract. It was not my motive. I have absolutely no intention of saying that the hon. the member from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) is intelligent or not intelligent. HR. SH1MONS: Mr. Speaker, point of order, Hr.

Speaker, the minister now ~akes light of the point of order. I said nothing about intellir,ence or the lack of it. I heard the minister distinctly say that this was being done for petty political reasons. SO~ HON. HE~IBER.<; : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I reject that. I reject that, Mr. Speaker, and even if he is right, Mr. Speaker, even if he is right, he is not permitted under the rules of this House to say it, and I ask, Mr. Speaker, to have him withdraw without qualification. SOME llON. ~1EHBERS : Hear, hear! NR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

DOODY: I withdraw any part of that, Sir, which upsets the hon. gentleman opposite. If he feels that his motives are not petty 1 then I withdraw it. If he feels that his motives are not political,then I withdraw it. If he feels that his motives were not motivated,then I withdraw it. But surely, Sir, there must have been some substance in their dragging the name and the honour of my friend, your friend,an hon. member of this House like the hon. the member for Harbour Grace (Mr.

Young)is,out in the middle of this floor for the first time in the history of the British process S0:1E 110'<. ~!EMilE RS : I! ear, hear! '1R. DOODY: - that I am aware of and make a mockery of the system that we have lived under all these years. I have never seen anythin~ like it before in my life. PREMIER MOORES: Hear, hear! 3215

!larch 18, 1976, Tape 1216, Page 2 - - aph ' ffi. llOOOY: Sir, this hon. !louse has nominated and has continu<'~ to do so through the auspices of the government or the elected majority of this :louse , and has been substantiated by a man who is far more knm-Jledr,cable than most of us are in this history and this tradition, has been substantiated by him and has been agreed with by all of us, that this is not just a Newfoundland precedent, this is a Rritish Parliamentary precedent that goes back years and years and years.

And the only reason that we have for the rejection of the nomination of my friend from Harbour Grace (!lr. Young) from the hon. member who has been rejected, who has been despised and scorned 1for some reason that is unknown to all of us,for some reason which is not allowed to he discussed as petty or partisan or political, is now being discarded and we must make a complete debate about it. It has never been heard of, Sir, in the history parliamentary tradition,as I understand it and as I know it.

The Speaker, Sir, has ah{ays been,and always has been,as I understand it, nominated by the government, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition and dragged - and I can well understand it, Sir, I can well understand it - dragged screaming to the Chair and forced to sit in the position that you are in now. There has never been in my understanding and all the reading that I have done and all the history that I know, it has never been my understanding that the Deputy Speaker or Chairman of Debates or Assistant Chairman of Debates or Deputy Chairman of Debates has had to go through the same thing.

It has always been a standard procedure . that this has been an accepted tradition in the British Parliamentary system. But for some reason only known to the petty childishness of those people opposite - SOME HON. ~ffiMllERS : Hear, hear! MR. DOODY: - and I withdraw that if it upsets my friend - HR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, on a point or order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPF.AKF.R: Order, please! A point of order has been raised. 3216

March 18, 1976, Tape 1216, Page 3 -- apb HR. SI'i.MONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister need withdraw nothing because it upsets me, I can sit here and take it, That is not the issue. SOJIE RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SIMMO~S: The rules of the House say, Hr. Speaker, that he cannot say that kind of thing and I would like him to abide by the rules of the House like I have to do, I would invite, Mr. Speaker, to have him withdraw - not because it upsets me,because it does not - because it violates the rules of this House. MR. w. CARTEF: That is a matter of opinion, SOME HON, MEMBERS: Oh, oh: HR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, with great respect, Sir, I have already withdrawn it in the previous comment. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please: I was going to indicate that it '~as my understanding that the hon. minister had made a withdrawal and no obejctions have been raised from other members of the House. On the point of order that the hon. the member later brought up,I do not think that need be regarded as a point of order. There was nothing unparliamentary that he indicated had been said. He was indicating that he did not wish that childish motives would be impugned to him and there was no real point of order raised there.

The hon. the Minister of Finance. HR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, there are far more mature people to whom we can say things. The simple substance of the matter before this House at this time, Sir, is something that to my knowledge, and to the knowledge of everybody else here who has done any reading or has done any research or has any interest other than surface interests in the system under which we live, is the fact that for reasons which we are not allowed to impugn 3217

Ti'lpe 1~17 PJl - 1 , ... . '011'W: 1tcm. Leader of the Opnosition anu his merry '-lunch of rli,~rr>d"ttcrl people h;we decider! - Hhat? 'iR. ])O(lTJY: They have been rliscrerlited by the puhlie of Newfoundland. ~"H'Y have .lcctclerl thnt yon are not el igihle to govern, not eligihle to serve the puhli~, not elif;ihlc to rule the Province, not eligible - Oh, oh! 'it·:. :J00TJY: 'ir. Sp"al~~r, with f(reat respect, ~ir, I am not casting an "I' Lnlon . [ a~·, c,imnly rr ;Hoating tl-te results of t' ' rP.e Stlccessivf' elections . I1r:1r, hear!

I am :>imnly sa:-ring now that all thcf'\r Httle t'10raH are certainlY C'rttin,o: unriC'r t~Je burr of my sartorial frienrl 0ver there. I must compliment ' lim 0n his r~ttiro tn rlay. '.!c seems to me to hr one of the- T nn "nvi'l;\ stiel: to the point. J)'ll')j)~': -·-·-·----- T an ;"::>.ttin~. to the point. I al'\ <'ettinr, to t!lc noint of · ·'1nt !1.1s he en r.,i sed here in debate recently which I may not he alloHed to r<'f0r to ahn11t ,.J, at is n real Tory. A Tory 1I think.,to me i.s :1 state of toin ·1 rathf"r t!,:m a politic'll philosophy.

In tl,is piirticular case I thinl· '-'"' '•,,vc ·.~ hat I ,.roulcl call a real Tory. He ~n.t "·man Pho is so undermined, .:o up::;ct, so insecure. sn hedevilled and beset that he cannot even accept t 11c traditions of the J\d.tish system over the n<1st years, that he takes nut his pique ancl takes Ids frustrations on one of the most hon. decent r1en ~>~ho ever SP.t foot in this hon. House and has decided to mRke R

part is an is.sur' out nr thr election.1i1ic:h bas never before been a qut>stion in this han. 1Touse, the election of our friend, the hon. member from the district or T:art•our r.racC' ('·!r. Ymmr,). I find it absolutely incredible, Sir, and cannot unrkrstand hm~ this House is Hillin~ to put up with it. T11p han. member from LaPoile.(Hr. Neary) a few minutes ago talked about the traciitions of this House, the traditiflnS of the system,anrl hmv ·~e are makinR lip.ht of it. The hon. member, T l'lm sure, has been very used to being consulted on all these thinp,s during his previous parliamentary experience. T. am sure that all the appointments of Speaker and Deputy Speaker 3218

Harch 18, 1976. Tape 1217 RH - 2 ~1R. DOODY: and Assistant r.h;d.rm.1n of Debates are always refP.rrecl to him .1nd asked for ~lis on.inion as to whom it should be. I am sure that you ah>ays or arr.uPcl with l1im for some substancP and some time - ·n:. 'lEARY: flne th1np; I know is that I can look after my canst ituents nn Tlell Tsland. Tl1at is more than you can do. : n1 • TlOOTlY : C1!1, we are p.:etting a bit toud1y. \·Te are p.-ettinr: a bit touchy. ' Ill. SPEAKER: Order, pl<>ase~ ·m. S TI1NONS : You had better watch over them. l1R. DOODY: That is right. That is right. Mr..

NEARY: You had better look after them. Hll. DOODY: The best thing, the best thing, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ NR. DOODY: The best thing you did for Bell Island was to head for LaPoile. ~1R. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order , please~ I do not think the last part was relevant - HR. DOODY: But, Sir, that is irrelevant and it is not substantive or pnrt of t~H' cleh<Jte. But i.f we want to bring jn all the traditions of the llrit ish par1ia111entary system, if we want to take in all the history of nlJ t!1e t h inr;s tl1at have nlways been done in the llouse~mavbe we should clrap. Fr.

Sp<>al-.er out of hj,s Chair and bring him downstairs and behead him, or maybe we should go to London and take the Queen and shoot her. I mean there are traditions and traditions and there are respects and respects, and there are things that you use and things that you do not use~and there are abuses which are not tolerated in any reasonable House. This to me has been the most abysmal misuse of the parliamentary system that I have ever seen and the greatest waste of time and the greatest abuse of an individual member that I have ever seen. !11~. NEARY: That is not the point. ~If:.

DOODY: ------ 1t 1s no good if the han. member for LaPoile (llr. Neary) is s:Jving, I have nothing against the poor, old member fnr Harbour r.race(Hr. Young) . . 3219

·;:~rc'l l", 1"7(1. r!R. nnonY: Tape 1217 P'l - 'l lie is neithr.r noor nor old,o.lthou~h he is a noo<l memher for llarhour Grace or for any district . !lut to use him as a whipping post fo r tlte frustrations of the people opposite to ne is absolutely despicable and disgraceful and an insult to our system and is something that I am not prepared to l i ve uith . I hope that t~ is !louse gets this thin ~ over "ith, Sir, as quickly a,; it can nnd P,et the thinr, resolved, have the hon . member duly elected to the post to t•hich he rightfully belongs an<! lV!t on with the business for 1~hic"t we were sent here .

Thank you , Sir . ~0 11: RON. HF.MJ\F~'.S: Hear , hear ! "R . ~Pr.A!<F.n: ~rr. . F . ROI!R: The "ton. memher for ~rinity-~ay de Ver de . ··r . Speaker, J only wish that the si~c of the provincial revenuP was t he size of the red herrin~ drap,ged across the floor of the llouSI' of Assemhly by the ~"inisrer of Finance this afternoon.

Sir, I have :;c vrr 'teartl anythinst as despicA ble coming from 11ny minister of the Ctown n:; a mcnaer of t'1e ''ousc l'f Assembly or as a pprson sitting in th<' r,11tle ry. ~''IT lff\~l. 'T"!IF.R£: llcar , hear ! '1~ . 'lnt-11': !:i r, the Minister stood in b,is place and set fo r th the r.ovC'mD>ent stra t cr.y on this 1-1hole thing . It is obvious t''at they are goinr. to come forth and conduct a personality attacl: once a gain on the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . Oh , oh! 3220

}!arch 18, 1976 Tape 1218 (afternoon) IB-1 MR. F. ROWE: Sir, he used words such as scorned, despised, petty politics, for reasons unknown, for reasons known only to the Leader of the Opposition. I can see it now, Sir. I can see the han. the Premier of this Province taking to the radio stations and taking to the television and accusing - ~. DOODY: I hope so, I sure hope so. }~. F. ROWE: - the Leader of the Opposition of conducting a personality attack on the hon. the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young). Sir, nothing is further from the truth. A.~ HON. }ffiMBER: Tell us the truth. MR. F.

ROWE: Members opposite, Sir, have missed the point completely. }ffi. ROBERTS: No, no. They deliberately missed the point. lffi. F. ROWE: Or they might have deliberately missed the point, but they certainly missed the point. Sir, as far as I am aware the Premier of this Province has consistently consulted, if I am correct, '~ith the Leader of the Opposition- }ffi.. ROBERTS: Yes, yes. ~IR. F. ROWE: - on the appointment of the Speaker and the Deputy Speakers and this sort of a thing since he has been in office, the present Premier of this Province. ~lhy the difference today, Sir?

Sir, today we harl two motions,or we are going to have two motions. We already have one motion presented. A Notice of Motion is going to be given and we are going to be asked consent to give consent to debate that second motion. We were quite willing to go ahead with it. But, Sir, while the Speaker himself was in the Chair, while you were in the Chair, Sir, this was the first, while you were on your way to the Chair, this was the first evidence that we had that a motion was going to be brought before this House for the appointment of a Deputy Speaker. ~'1'. noonY: It has never been done before. MR. F.

ROWE: Sir, it has been the tradition of the present Premier of this Province - PREMIER MOORES : I have not. 3221

Harch 18, 1976 Tape 1218 (afternoon) IB-2 l·1R. ROBERTS: You did so. HR. F. ROWE: - to consult with the Leader of the Opposition on such appointments. AN HON • l1E}ffiER: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: You have called me, sure you have. ~lR. F. ROl-lE: And if it has not been done in the past, it should have been done in the past. AN liON. }!E:MBETI : Hear, hear! MP. ROBERTS: It has been done. ~R. F. ROWE: Now, Sir, I want to make one point abundantly clear HR. WELLS: A point of order, Hr. Speaker - 11r. F. ROWE: A point of order? HR. HELLS: A point of order.

The hon. gentleman has brought up what was said before the sitting started today. Perhaps the hon. f!:entleman >muld 1 ike to repeat what was said to me when I informed them as a courtesy as to our choice of Deputy Speaker or Deputy Chairman. PRm'IER MOOP.ES: Hhat did he say? HR. WELLS: Hhat was Raid? XR. ROBERTS: There was disbelief. c<n.. r. Rmm: To be quite frank with you, Hr. Speaker, I do not think I said anything. l1R.. ROBERTS : Just stunned shock. ~'R. F. ROHE: I presume the hon. the House Leader -which motion is the hon. the llouse Leader speaking of?

Is he talking about the Come By Chance Oil Refinery or the motion for the appointment of the Deputy Speaker? Sot:E Hm:. !'Et'BET!S: Oh, oh! ~IJ! .• F. ROWE: Because I was not approached on the appointment of the Deputy Speaker. So I did not say anything. So I am not going to be distracted by that type of questioning, Hr. Speaker. ~m. ROBERTS: It is not a point of order. 3222

March 18, 1976 Tape 1218 (afternoon) l•:R. SPEAKEr.. (Dr. Collins): Order, please! .JT-· F. ROl-lE: And by the way I am speaking to a point of order . tiR. SPENCER (Dr. Collins): The Chair does not regard this as a legitimate point of orc1e-r. vle would regard it rather as the hon. minister asking leave to make a few remarks. _l!R. F. RO\ffi: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. Let me make one thing abundantly clear, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition has nothing whatsoever against any member opposite, any member opposite, We have our debates. MR. ROBERTS: Even Lundrigan. IB-3 MR. F.

ROWE: And sometimes we have our lively debates and sometimes we have witticisms thrown in and sometimes we get a little bit too snarky. ~'R. ROBERTS: Just as the Premier the other day used indecent, offensive language in the Rouse and withdrew it, ~!Jl.. F, ROWE: And , Sir, I think that there has been offensive language, - MR. ROBERTS: Indecent, offensive, obscene,insulting, He was made to withdraw it. MR. F. ROWE: Etc., I think, Sir, have been thrown back and forth on both sides of the floor. AN RON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: You were not listening to anybody either. MR. F.

ROvffi: But, Sir, this is not the point at hand here. The point is simply this, is that neither the hon, House Leader nor the Premier consulted with the Leader of the Opposition or the Leader of the Liberal Reform Party or the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), consulted with neither about the appointment of the Deputy Speaker. Now, whether we agree with the appointment of that particular person is completely irrelevant, Some will agree, Some will disagree.

But the point of principle here is that there was no consultation and we are not going to stand here and have this government ram motions, resolutions, Speakers, Deputy Speakers, amendments or anything else down our throats. 3223

" arc h 18 , 1976 Tape No, 1219 NM - 1 "" "ltOWE: It i!' as simple as that, '~ .• ROBERTS: Hear! Hear! }~. SUU.fONS: H'ell said~ Well said! ~. ROYlE: As simple as that. Now, Sir, I in closing and in voicing my extreme objection to the disgraceful, bullheaded way that this motion was brought before the House which is. Sir, nothing - is a terrible insult to the hon. member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young).

His own colleagues, Sir, his own colleagues themselves are responsible for the embarrassment that the hon. member from Harbour Grace (~~r, Young) must be suffering at this time, If it was any other member . the same thing \.:rould have happened. He \.Yould have been just as embarrassed because there \las no prior consultation. ·~. DOODY: You did not mind embarrassing the member for St. John's North (Mr, J. Carter)! }W, ROB~RTS: The only way we could de it. MR. ROWE: Sir, in closing~and voicing my extreme objection to this - "'.-fD 1 •• '1. .. MURPHY: 1"ry the member for St, John's N ortl ~ ? ~.

ROBERTS: Senior member, former minister, HR. ROWE: motion, this disgraceful motion, this motion which is embarrassing to the member for Harbour Grace (~~r, Young) - ~ m. ~RPHY: Tt is not embarrassing him . 'ffi. ROWE: I want to reinforce and re-emphasize one thing,and that is that this is in no way a personality attack - ~0~ RON. ~MBF.RS: No. No. No. MR. ROWE: - no way a personality attack by any member on this side of the House on the member for Harbour Grace (1-'l'r. Young).

And I \,•ould consider to be the cheapest and the lowest and the filthiest kind of politics for any minister or any Premier or any Leader of the npposi.tion, or any House Leader of the Government - •~n. ROBERTS: Or Leader of the Opposition, too, to do it, s ure. •m. ROWE: - to go on TV and accuse the Leader of the Opposition or 3224

March 18, 1976 Tape No. 1219 NY- 2 Jo1R, ROWE: any member here opposite of conducting a personality attack, because that is precisely what is going to be done , if it has not already been done by the Premier's speech writer. MR. ROBERTS: Am I allowed to go on TV too? ~m. ROWE: So, Sir, I stand firmly against this particular motion, most violently . ~~. ROBERTS: Hear! Rear! SOME HON. ~ERS: Hear! Hear! MR . LllND'R.IGAN: You should censor the press on this one. MR. SPEAKER (PR. · coLLINS)~ The hon. memher for St. John's North. }m. J. CARTER: Yr. Speaker, I had not intended getting drawn into this debate .

I feel that the suggestion that I be nominated was not necessarily mischievous but certainly ill advised. In fact it is the most unheard of thing that I kave ever heard of. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J, CARTER: However, I will take it as a genuine compliment at the same time rejecting it. I have always felt that it was the tradition that ' the government appoint the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker, and the sub Deputy Speaker and the Assistant Chairman of Debates, right on down the line and I do not feel that the government should abdicate that responsibility right now. ~m .

MURPHY: Thev 1ust want to take over. MR. J, CARTER: In fact,it was only this morning, having heard through the grapevine that the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) might be nominated for that post,that I was congratulating him and I would like to right now, Sir, reaffirm those congratulations - M1 HON. }1Et1BER: Hear! Hear! MR. J. CARTER: - by supporting him here and now. SOME HON. ~ER: Hear! Hear! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I am aghast, amazed, somewhat embarrassed by the behaviour of the House of AssP.mbly today, of the persons who brine up this point in opposing a nomination.

It is not political, as denied by one member of the Opposition, it is not personal,~and it is not petty• I call on someone on the Opposition side of the 3225

~'arch lB. l'J76 Tape No. 1219 Nl4 - 3 }~. PnWE~: House to stand up and say why they oppose the nomination of my good colleague from Harbour Grace. t-111 •• Rmm: \~e have <"lready told you! No consultation! 1~. SPEAKER DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Conception Bay South. }1R. MORGAN: Tell us the reason why. What is the reason! I!R. HURPHY: Tell us, 'John 1 • MR . ~!ORGAN : Tell us the reason '~hy hon. gentleman? ~fR. ROWE: We will not sell you and do you know something - MR. NOLAN: Why do you no"t speak for Metro Engineering? SO~ HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. NOLAN: I Em talking to the bon.

Minister of Transportation and Communication&. MR. }!ORGAN: l'r . Speaker, on a point of order; the hon. gentleman had hetter give a full, detailed explanation of that comment. t<Jl. NOLAN: Very happy to, very happy to. Is it permissable to give it now? I have been hassled, heckled - 1-W . ROBERTS: On a point of order, ~~r. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon, .Leader of the 0pposition. 11R. MORGAN : Go ahead. Hll.. ROB"ERTS: I will let the Hun say that. To that point of order, }!r. Speaker. '1"R. MORGAN: Sit down. You a leader! Sit down! Innuendo! MR.

R0BERTS: The hon. gentleman from Conception Bay South asked the gentleman from - I am not sure he suggested to any hon. gentleman opposite-hut the hon. gentleman fro~ Bonavista South obviously felt that the cap fitted him and thus he should wear it,although I heard mv colleague - You are making innunedos. HR. ROBERTS: I heard my colleague mention nobody,and I heard my colleague ind:l .cate nobody. But all he said, I submit .. was- and I think I have his words correctly_. you had better speak for '!etro Engineering. \vas that it? I do not know what he means.

I have no doubt he knows what he means and whoever over there, Mr. Speaker, wishes to speak - 3226

'March 180 1976 Tape No. 1219 NM- 4 ~ ~ . ROBERTS: ~~ r. Speaker, whoever wi shes to speak for tAetro Engineering, or whntever Metro F.ngineering may or may not be,I hope ~~11 speak for it. All I will say, Sir, is that my colleague has said or done nothing that is in any way contrary to the - '\N<r liON • Hfl113~RS : Oh , oh ! '<~'. ROBERTS: - is in any ~~ay contrary to the rules of this Honse. Re has not used any unparliamentary language. lie has not cast dispersions upon any hon. member opposite. He ha s not cast doubt upon any hon. gentleman ' s motives . All he said, as I heard him was, you had better s pe·ak for Metro Engin eering , 3227

i'larch 18, 1976 Tape no. 1220 PK - 1 Hr. Roberts: and the hon. gentleman from Bonavista South 01r. Horgan), to whom as far as I can see the remarks were not addressed, leaped to his feet in an air of outrage. I do not know why he is outraged. I do not really care why he is outraged, but I submit, Sir, that my colleague has done nothing that is contrary to the rules of the House and there is no point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins) On the point of order, I do not think that any remarks were made that I heard that did fall into the category of being unparliamentary.

They may have been a little obscure, but I do not think that is unparliamentary. !1R. ROBERTS: If that is unparliamentary we are all in trouble. l·1R. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The han. member from Conception Bay South . HR. NOLAN: Hr. Speaker, I do not know if the House noticed, but I stood here for some moments, and all surely, Hr. Speaker, you could hear where certain heckling from particularly the Minister of Transportation. I never opened my mouth other than to refer to a firm that is engaged in snow clearing, allegedly, in my district. 11R. SH!MONS: Done without tenders. MR.

NOLAN: "ell that is not really the point. Hut why I am on my feet right now is this, that this situation that has arisen this afternoon is one that must be very troublesome to all members of this House no matter where they. sit. Because I am no different, I feel, Mr. Speaker, that all hon. members who must continually be plagued bj complaints of one kind or another fr.om people who are 322B

March 18, 1976 Tape 1220 PK- 2 Mr. Nolan: trying either to get jobs for their children, trying to find some way to support their families, so many problems that must come to every individual member of this House of Assembly. And I find myself here at twenty-five minutes past four in the afternoon about a situation that, in my opinion, that should never have come up publicly in this House in the first place. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HOLAN: I think it is absolutely criminal that any man or woman in this House of Assembly should be forced to go through the situation that I see here today.

We talk about the great communications problems that we have and how we are solving them. We talk about bringing government to the people. We cannot even communicate amongst each other. Surely God we must realize what peopl¢ must be saying and thinking about us out there. Now there are some things that I cannot go into because there have been discussions back and forth, as there must be to run any House of Assembly. There are things - there has been a breakdown in the past on things, and I hope that this will be the last time that the like of this will ever reach this floor of the House.

It is a discredit upon all of us, in my opinion. It is a situation that should have been solved ever befo~e this House opened this afternoon. I am thoroughly ashamed. I intend to vote on this situation, and then I intend to walk out of this House in digust this afternoon because I am absolutely poisoned with what is going on. MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: I have too many problems in my district.

I have got too many problems that I have to handle, and I sit here and,as one member on the other side mentioned just casually to me the other afternoon, and I cannot mention his name obviously, he said, one of the greatest problems I have in the House of Assembly is trying to maintain my sanity. Now I echo his sentiments~ because I am thoroughly sick of this situation going on here. I am fed up with it. There are too many problems. We are all suppose to be men and women. We have got big 3229

:tar e!. 18 , 1976 Tape no. 1220 Page 3 - PK :tr. Nolan . problems thac we hove to face. ttow in the name of God are we colng to cope wit h thee if we cannot set t le a matter such as this like men! I am sorry, ~lr . Speaker , if I get somewhat emotional about th!.s . But - A.'l liON . }IEHBER: Right on, right on! ~tR. :-lOLA:<: - it is something, believe ce, that I find very, very repulsive. It is a situation that should never have arise n . And it is a situation that I for one am not going to put up ~ith any more. i\nd I realize I am only one member of this !louse of Assembly, one voice.

But why, do you wonder why we are considered irrelevant in here? It is very simple. Look at the clock, ~!r. Speak er , 4:3 0 i n the afternoon , with a situation that should have been settled before 10e opened the doors and her e 3230

~arch 18, 1 Q76 Tane no. 1221 Pa~e 1 - mw '!r. Nolan. ----- '"'"' are. It is enoup:h to turn vour stomach if vou are out thP-re trvin~ to fin~ the monev to nav your light hills, vour heat hills, to fee~ vour families, to keen vour children in school, and here ~·Ie are, all eP-edlv responsible individuals from the community t~ho for one reason or another,,mavbe the nartv we renresent, are elected here to renresent and to do our best for the neonle in the districts and in the Province as a wholP.. I sup:gest to you that we are not doin!!; that. ~e behaviour here this afternoon is shameful.

It should never have arisen, and like I sairl, it may not be ~~orth a darn, J-lr. Speaker, hut I will vote on this situation and then for this afternoon, at least, as a nersonal protest, I am walkinp: out. '.fR. SPF.AKf.R (1'1r. Collins) : The hon. member for Twillinp,ate. ·~~~~!ALI~~~~~- Mr. Sneaker, I re1oice over one thing and onlv one th1n~ here torlav,anrl that is that the Nevfonndland peonle are not here looking and listening at us. SOME llON. MF.MllER$ : lfear, hear! MR. SPF.AKER(Dr. Collins): The hon.

Minister of Mines and F.nerp.y. ~. r.ROSRIF: \Jell, "'r, Sneaker, I certainly agree with the remarks of the last sneaker, the hon P.entleman fo~ Twillinp:ate (Mr. Smallwood). J-lr. Sneaker, iust to get this in nersnective. The matter is really very simnle. You know, the government is under no obligation to ask the Opposition to annrove or disannrove t~ho government is p;oinp.; to !':UP.f!est to the 'House of Assemhlv shoul~ be elected as the officers nf the House. It certai.nJy iR the tradition to inform the Onnositi.on that vou are P.oin~ to nropose someone,hut for the memhP.r for Concention ~av South (Mr.

No1 an) to su!(gest that this would have all been cured if the Leader of the Opposition had heen told yesterday or earlv this morning that t'f>e government t~as goinp to pronosP. the member for Harbour r.race (~<r. Young) to he the neT'Utv Chairman of CommitteP.S is just not so, hecause the Leader of thP. Opposition would still have opposed him. And 3231

'l'ane no. J ~?1 MR. CROSBIE: tl,ere is no ~mv, 'ir. Cl,airman, that t}>e povernment shoulrl be rl:!ctaterl to }-v the "nnosition as to •N"ho '"" Rrf' P:Oinp to nronose Fnr a DE'nutv Ch:lirT"~,.. of C:ommi.ttees, unlt>.RR the T.Par'!Pr of tlce 0nnosition can l,ri.nP: for•arrl somP verv "reat nroof that tl,r. Dt>nutv C:hai=an of rommittees "a" not }>Pin~ imnart.ia] in hiR rln~ieR.

Thi.s is .~ c:lRE' of ··•here a man l.s hein~ fonnn <>.uilty before 1., has even l,acl a chanct> to makp anv rnl.i.n<>:. ct is unhearrl of. 'Tl,v Rhouln the sn<><>PRtec1 nennt:" rhai rt'!lln o" ro"'l'littees, the memher fnr 11arhour C:race ('fr. Younv.) hi" connemnerl anrl namner'! bv the Leai!er of the 0nnn,;i.ti.on ani! the Onnosi.timi },e<'nrP he l1as even hail a chance tn perform h~.s rluties? That iR ~~hat rnakes this so nnhearr1 of. 'ifov the npposi.tion has ha(l notice.

Thev ·~ere tolr:1, before the House Leader Has up this afternoon, that the f'OVernment '"a" p;oin,<>; to propose the memher for llarhour (;race (~lr. Young) as the cA.ndi.r:1nte for Depntv C:}>a:!rman of C:ommittees. That is all the P:nvernment had anv o1,li~ation to r1o. Tt is certainlv not in the rules that vou even have to rlo that. Anr:1 then for the me1r.her for Conception nav South (Mr.

"lolan) to ~r,et up ~n. th a lot of crocodi~.e tear" ahout loe fee-ls hm-r har'! the r.:! tnation is and hov Fe(! nn he is r-•1 th :! t, he can onl" hf' r1irPct1n~r thOSf' comments to his mm Leader of the npnosition, tllf• !lent] em an who forcerl this unwholesome and unheal thv a nil nerfirious s:!.tm1tion. -,n!-fP nnN. 'fl':'- ~l<:l'S: Hear, hear! >fl>. _ _c:_~os.,n_IF.: Tl,at is ~·ho caused this. Shameful! The memher for roncPption Tlav South ('"fr. Nolan) said this ~~as shameful. It is Rhamefnl, ann it '''A.S eausen hv the T.ear1er of the Onoosi tion who must J,ave his own reasons for that.

Is there anv 11;overnment in the 1mrld, '~r. Speaker, Hith a ma.~oritv in the House of Assemhlv or Par~iament that would have the nnrosition dictate to them who thev must not nominate fnr s,,.,a 1<er, nf'Putv Sneaker or Deputy Chatrmnn of C:ommittP.es. Now t!,c> mern1>er fnr 'l'<·r11Jino:ate (Mr. Snallwoon) 1,; somE'what surnr:!so>n nt th:!C1 turn of evC'nts. 1 am not. I war, :ln the last House nf Assemhlv, 3232

Tape ro . 1221 Pa~te 3 - mw '·!r. \.rf'>_:"lhi.~. 'Inn in the_ 1A.c:t llouse nf Assembly there was a calc~tlatecl camr>ai!l,n lw tl-tP flr>NHl1 t:ion an<~ '•v the Leader of the flooos i ti.on ao:ainst the sn·1J"~ : ~~~l .:. Mf:!!J'!"::P.~: ~~· ._CJ'0:'_1\~: lle'lr, hear! - Hr .

"Prerl StaP,Jl.,who Hac: vili.fierl and attac~eti on TMnv OC<'.at>i on!< :in !-tis c·anacity as Chai:rman of Co1!1Mi tttees anti nenutv Sn eaker . 1\ut , at least , the Denutv Sl'eaker of that llouse was ar>nointeti to his offic e without anv Onnosition in accordance 1nth t~e no~al course of events. not condemned anti attacketi he~ore he even ~ot in the r.hair. So the unheard of thing here,ancl the shameful thinv and the clis~stinP- t hinSt is that this is all p.oinll, on h.efore anvhodv 1-tas even had a chance to jud~e whether the memher for Tlarhour r.race (Mr . Young) can do his ,1oh comnetentlv or not.

The onlv 3233

March 18, 1976 Tape 1222 (afternoon) IB-1 ~ffi. CROSBIE: reason for the Opposition opposing them has to be,although they have not stated it yet, that they think either.one, he is prejudice or~two, he is incompetent or,three, that he is both. What other reason could there be for opposing him or any other member suggested by the House? He has not even gotten a chance to show whether he is that way or whether he is not that way because he is not even in that post yet. So I agree with the member for Conception Bay South (Nr.

Nolan) that this is a terrible situation and that it is shameful and I am feel up with it, and it i.s terrible if the House is forced to go through it. But the House is forced to go through it by the Leader of the Opposition. I say to the Leader of the Opposition that he should either withdra~• his opposition to the nomination or specify his charges against the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young), not just say the Opposition is going to oppose it because they did not have enough notice. Whether they had five minutes notice or five hours would not have made any difference.

So that is what is terrible about this situation and that is what is unheard of and this is what has never happened in any other House that I know of, and I believe the gentleman for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) said the same and he is a student of these matters. I do not believe there has been another House in the Commonwealth that ever had a suggested member put forward by the House defeated in this manner except perhaps where they had a tie . I remember in Newfoundland one time there was a tie and each side supported another man from the other side to be Speaker so they get a majority.

So this side of the House vTOuld vote for that fellow's canclirlate for Speaker and vice versa where they were tied. So this unv1holesome situation is caused by the Leader of the Opposition, Nr. Speaker, and I suggest to the Leader of the Opposition that if he has any decent regard for this House or its traditions that he now state that he withdraws his opposition and the House unanimously appoint 3234

~arch 18, 1976 Tape 1222 (afternoon) MR . CROSBIE: the member for Harbour Crace (Mr. Young) to the Chair s o that we can see how the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) acts as a Deputy Chairman when he is called upon to act. In any event, Mr. Speaker, it is not that important a position. The important positions in this House are Speaker and Deputy Speaker. The Deputy Chairman of Committees fills in ~en those gentlemen are absent or when the Deputy Speaker cannot act in Committee. So it is not the be-ali and the end-all of this House.

One would think that the whole fate of the House and the whole fate of the government hung on what the hon. member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) would do or not do as Deputy Chairman of Committees. So it is a disgraceful and unheard of and unwarranted personal attack on the member for Harbour Grace (~~. Young) to have the Opposition act in this way. SOME RON MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Is the House ready for the question? The hon. member for Burgee-Bay D1 Espoir. t!R. SI1'1'10NS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say just a few words on this particular motion.

I think it is worth reminding ourselves that it is a debatable motion and we tend to rely on the wisdom of the past, the traditions of the past and so on when it suits our convenience. A number of speakers today have reminded us of bow well-founded a tradition this is. Well the founders of that tradition that they have referred to, Mr. Speaker, have founded another one , too. That is that this ought to be a debatable motion. r!ow I would suggest, ~!r. Speaker, they did that for some very good reasons. One of these reasons, Mr. Speaker, is because it is the House,not the government, Mr.

Speaker, which chooses its officers. Now, the Minister of Hines and Energy - I just wrote it down I think exactly - said, the government is under no obligation to ask IB-2 the Opposition. We are used to that kind of arrogance from the Minister of !lines and Energy, ~rr. Speaker, but it does not conform to the facts, t ~r. Speaker. Beauchesne , the appropriate reference on page 22, says, 32.35

~'arch 18, 1976 Tape 1222 (afternoon) IB-3 l!P. SIM!'!ONS: ''The choice of Speaker is the choice of this House. The House chooses and elects its Speaker. He is in no sense the choice of the government!' AN HON. }!EMBER: Right on! Right on! AN RON . MEtiDER: The Speaker. 'MR. Sll'}!ONS: And that, Hr. Speaker, follows through for the other officers. They are not - AN liON. ¥EMBER: Oh, oh ~ ~!R. SUIMONS: Mr. Speaker, may I be heard in silence? SOME HON. ~IFJffiEP.S: No! }ffi. r.rOSBIE: Thank God the school children do not have to listen to you any longer. }!R. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! !lR.

SUIMONS: Ah, ha! 'Old t'utton Chops' himself. }IR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collin s): Order, please! HR. SIHMONS: I do not expect him to agree, Hr. Speaker. MR. CWJSBIE: I do not want to hear you in silence. NR. SUIIIONS: Hr. Speaker, the Hinister of ]lines and Energy has said, the government is under no obligation. That is quite true, because it is not the r:overnment's prerogative, this matter, 1\r. Speaker, is a matter for the House. We choose our officers here whether Speaker, ])eputy Speaker or Deputy Chairman. We choose the officers.

Now, the tracUtion, if we want to talk about what the tradition has been, the tradition, !':r. Speaker, as I understand it, has been to ensure that the person chosen is acceptable to all members of the !louse because jt is important. Oh, yes. Oh, ye s . That is the tradition. !·rR. SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker, the pragmatics of the situation require that if we have someone sitting in the Chair who is not acceptable to a sep;ament of the House, to a group in the House, you have chaos 3236

Harch l fl , 197 6 . 'IR . S Il<t-f()~!S : Tape 1223 RH - 1 from the be ginnin g . ThP ~linister of Hines and Energy has well referred to the l<'lst Tlc.>puty Speal:er of the House. We know "hat happened there. l-'e 1-:now th<'lt because of his very blatantly partisan performance that we had all kinds of problems. We want to avoid that kind of problem this time, ~~ r. Spea ke r. Sometimes more than others the members of the House !,;tve to participate more actively in the choic e . I 1.;ould have hoped, like my colleague from Conception Bay South(Mr.

Nolan) has said that the choice could have been made outside and that the government House l~eader of the Premier could have determined a member from among his ranks, his party's ranks, who would have been acceptable to all parties in the House and then have proposed it and it would have been a formality,as they hoped it would be. But, }!r. Speaker, that formality, that tradition 1cannot be taken for granted and that is what the government has done here today.

They have assigned to themselves a role which is really a role for the House member­ ship, not for the government caucus, not for the Premier, not for the government House Leader. Let it be clearly understood that this is a choice, Mr. Speaker, for the House, not a choice for the Premier. Tradition says he nominates, of course. But tradition aside, Mr. Speaker, and all the other arguments aside, the pragmatics of the situation require that the person who sits in the Chair be a person who commands the acceptance of all members of the House.

The workings, the functional, efficient workings of the House require that, Mr. Speaker. That does not even really need to be said. To insure that kind of acceptance the elementary, Hr. Speaker, it almost seems silly to have to say it, the elementary thing to have been done - it is almost axiomatic - would be that the Premier or the government House Leader would have insured that his nominee - I do not argue with the f11ct that it is his nominee.

He has got the most votes in this House,or hi.s p,roup. 1 am not arp;uinf'; with that - but I say it is practically axiomatic that he would have had the common sense to insure that his nominee woul d c ommand the acceptance of all people, all members of this House and >~ e would not be in this protracted debate. But, 1·{r. Speaker, - MR . DOODY: vfuat have you got against him? 3237

i!arch Hl, 197f . Tape 1223 RIT - 2 ~!R. SH:.'lONS: lfr. Speaker, this nonsense of - I do not have. R.nything against 'rim, ~!r. Speal~er. The rlinister of Finance asked me. I wish I could say, I ,.;ish I couln report to t11e J!ouse the same in respect to the llinister of Finance's feelings about the Leader of the Opposition. If you "'ant to talk about a personal attack, }~r. Speaker, one of the most vociferous and vicious personal attacks I ~ave seen in a long time is tiw one thi'lt the Ninister of P'inance made on the Leader of the "rposition today.

Fe are not going to get sucked into thRt 1-:.ind of thing, • ~:r. f:peal-.er, because that is not our purpose here. That is not our purpose ilt all. l'f'.nnn: :1oor..r.s: P,unl<um! Ah, l'r. Speaker, the Premier, nlcl foul mouth himself and .ns C:olgate smile again, eh! Ile will get on T.V. tonight because he has r;ot mnrr votes than we have and explain it, old foul mouth himself, eh. l!e can cover it up witr. the Colp,ate smile. Ah! Oh yes, excert !'1ore and more peorle arc r.etting to knoH \·Jhat is re;~)]v f,<'hjncJ thRt Sl'1i le. A..!J.! Hare }loores. Order, please! 'l!\.. B.

Pf.CKFORn: On a point of order, J1r. Speaker, on a point of order~ ;'f(. SPEAKER: /1. point of order has been raised. :m. PF.C::Kl'OrJ): Tl1e point of order simply being, ~'r. SpP.aker, that the han. member who is now speakin!!: is not speaking to the motion before the House, but is rather venting his venom on the hon. the Premier. I ask the hon. Speaker to please brinr, him to order. ~ l }l. SPEAKER: Are there any comments on that point of order? ~ T.. STI~ ·tOiJS: ------- '·lr. Speaker, I have no venom to vent on the Premier. We all love him. l.Je all know that.

If I hurt his feelings or hurt the minister's feelings from Green Bay, well you know, my humble apologies. \·nw likes the Premier more? Who in this House needs tb.e pity of the House more than the Premier? :m. SPEAKFR: The hnn. the l'remier. 3238

":m;h lfl , 1976. Tape 1223 r.n - 3 l'!':.Em I:R • 'tl(lR F.S: F r:·.•· t t i,ng the last few renun:l1s hccaur. C' 1 •lo not t hinl~ t!t"y are veTy "~ l evant thi s afterno on., I thin k. on the point of or:der 1oe a r c d"iscu:;sin)! . , Si t, it is now twenty to five - there are a g r eat m'lny t tinl'IS t ha t could be said this afternoon . Ther ~ i>as a J.ot of emotions p r et t y hi~;h , incl u tling myse lf on occasion as conunents fle w back ;:~nd forth across the Bouse . 1 t is unfortunate t hat it has to, this parti c uJ.ar nomination has to - All liON . HEJ-mP.R: Has he ~.ot the floor? ~tR .

SIHI't0NS: I yielded for a point of order, not a speech. PREMIER MOORES: Yes, I am trying to be, yes, yes. I am on the point of order, yes. I would like to say, Sir, that I think, Sir, that what we have is the nomination of a person for Deputy Speaker. A debate on that particular subject IIIElanS that soiiiElbody, whether it is the Opposition or ourselves,want to debate the individual himself and his qualifications. There is no criteria whereby the government has t.o consult with the Ol>position regarding - MR. lWHE: Hr. Speaker, he is not speaking to the point of order. MR.

SINMONS: Speak to the point of order, PREI'UER UQORES: t-.'hich point of order? t-!R. MURPHY: What point of order? 3239

March 1R, 107~, Tape 1224, Page 1 -- aph 'IR. F.Jl.ROHF: Mr. Sneaker, to clarify the situation~ the '!inister of Municiral Affairs and Rousing raised the point of order, my collea~ue replied to it and I submit the Premier was speakin~~; to the point of order. PRF.J'TER MOORl'S : I thought that had been dispensed with, Mr. '~r. Speaker. I am sorry! 'IR. ROWE: No, he had not finished the point and this is why I asked the Premier if he was speaking to the point of order. 'fy colleague had not yielded the floor. ~~R. ~PEAKER (Collins): Order, please! A ruling had not been made on the ooint of order.

I understand that the hon. the member for Burgeo-llay d'Fspoir has made a suitable withdrawal of any offending remarks and that the roint of order is therefore disposed of. The hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. ~-m. SIMMONS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. PECKFORD : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. nid you say tcyat the hon. the member for Bur~eo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Si~ns) withdrew the remarks that were questionable as relevancy pertained to his speech when l made the original point of order? MR. SPEAKF.R (r-ollins): That was the understanding by the Chair. )IR. SI'IMONS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, and for the benefit of the memher for r.reen Bny (Mr. Peckford) I shall withdraw again in even more elementary terms. I withdraw, I withdraw, I withdraw. I would like to get back to the subiect under debate. T had hoped,as one member,that it would not take this much time. Indeed as the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) has said, the matter could well have been settled before, Mr. Speaker, walked into the House today. Not only courtesy to the House required that, not only courtesy to the various parties in the Rouse required that, hut courtesy to the nominee required that, Mr.

Speaker, and the government House Leader and the Premier would not then have suhiected the member for Harbour Grace O~r. Young) to this debate. 'lr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is we are in the debate. T Hould have hoped to have saved the member the embarrassment of 3240

March 18, 1976, Tape 1224, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: that debate but what we are doing here is not particularly unprecedented. If we are choosing an officer, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: MR. SMALL'!olOOD: MR. SIMMONS: Do not go against him. You never know! There are all kinds, Mr. Speaker, of situations. This is not a knighthood we are giving here, Mr. Speaker, it is a job of work for which the gentleman will get paid, And there are all kinds of instances where the matter of a persorls suitability for the task is considered before it is rubber-stamped. I would have hoped, Mr.

Speaker, for the sake of the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) that kind of adjudication or consideration could have been done in private, But, Mr. Speaker, if the government House Leader,for his own reasons, and I hope he will explain why he took this particular course, for whatever reason he wanted to drag it out in the House, if that is what he has inflicted upon us and upon the member for Harbour Grace n1r. Young), well then we have no choice but to go along with it and if necessary get into the matter of the acceptability of the person for the task. I would hope not to have to do that. I will,though.

I cannot speak for my colleagues because we have not caucused on the matter. I will say, ~r. Speaker, that having been in this House for a session or two and having watched the performance of several members, I would have hoped,in the interest of having a candidate in the Chair who was ar.ceptable to all groups, I would have hoped that the Premier and/or the government House Leader could have nominated any of several other people from their ranks for that particular task. I will be voting against the resolution for two reasons.

I will vote against it because I resent very deeply the manner in which it was done,and I will also vote against it - and I make it clear that I do not speak for my colleagues here. They may be quite opposed to my viewp(Jint on this- but I personally will vote 3241

Harch 18, l'Hf;, Tape 1224, Page. 3 -- aph ~ll • • SIMMONS: against the resolution because I consider the ------- memher for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) at once to be a gentleman, secondly, to be a fine member insofar as I know his work on behalf of his district,and,thirdly,I consider him to be unacceptablP liS a Deputy Chairman in this llouse. I cannot, }1r. Sneaker, J cannot, "''r. Sneaker, ~I R . FICKt1AN: Unacceptable! ~ln. SPIMONS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I say to the Minister of Justice - ~·R. ROP.ERTS: An honest and an honourable member. }ffi.

S I '!MONS : - I say that is the truth and it is the truth only from me. ~~at the other members feel I do not know. I cannot honestly, Mr. Speaker, in conscience, Mr. Speaker, in conscience, ~r. Speaker, - SOME HON. !1m-tilERS : Oh, oh! MR. SHI}IONS: The members opposite stood up and talked about playing petty politics and now they can think of nothing else at a quarter to five in the afternoon but an attempt to suck me into a partisan type discussion. I will not get involved in it, lrr. Speaker.

All I say is this, that I,for me 1 in conscience cannot in selecting the officers of this House ap,ree to the nomination of the member for Harbour Grace (Mr.Young). That is all I say. }ffi . F. 1\. !lOI-TF. : You would have wanted to do it in private. HR . S!'IMONS: I would have liked to have been able to say that in privatr, had I been p,iven the opportunity. I regret very much that I was obliged to say it here in the public nature in which this House finds itself. I regret I had to do it here. I would much have preferred to have done it privately.

The Premier and the government Jlouse Leader have robbed me of that. Now they will ~E't up ancl attacl ' me cif >,aving personal things against the member and all that kind of nonsense, Mr. Speaker. I have 3242

March 18, 1976 Tape no. 1225 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons. in my time in education had very often to hire people, and you could not hire everybody, but it did not mean that the people you did not hire, you did not like personally. It often meant that the people you put in place, you felt were more able to do a 1ob than the other persons who you could not hire. Now I know they will get up and they will bamboozle me, and they will try and railroad the whole situation and cast asnersions and give the i~ression that somehow it is some kind of a personal vendetta ar;ain!lt the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Youn~).

It is nothin~ like that, Mr. Speaker, nothing of that at all. It is just a quest:lon of accentability for the post, and I cannot in conscience, as one member, and I only speak for me, I cannot, Mr. Speaker, in conscience support the nomination of the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young), and it has nothin~ to do with any personal considerations at all. It has to do with the functioning, the proper functioning, the successful functioning of this House. It has to do· with that, Mr. Speaker, and that alone. I say, before I sit down, Mr.

Speaker, that I predict that other members will get up and attempt to bamboozle and attempt to assign all kinds of motives to what I have said. But all I have said I have said in conscience. I cannot in terms of the - having due re~ard for the proper functioning of this Rouse - I cannot in conscience sunport the nomination of the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young). I repeat,! would rather have been given the opportunity to say those 1qords in p,rivate. It would have been much fairer to the House. It would have been much fairer to the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young).

The Premier and the Covernment House Leader have chosen this course of action and have forced me to say here in this House, in this Chamber, ~~hat I would nuch have preferred to have said in the privacy of a caucus or in the privacy of a consultation with the representatives from the ~overnment side of the House. ~lr. Speaker, let us not get railroaded into whose choice this is. It is elearly the choice of the House. The formalities and the traditions that have been referred to, I think, have been 3243

Tape no. 1?.25 Page 2 'fr. Sil!l!11ons represented nretty correctly. nut the tranitions ann the courtesies must never l1e allowed to subtract from the real import of what Hf! are trvinp; to do here. Now concern has been expressed about the lateness of the hour, ann w"tether or not r,7e are conducting the kind of business ~~e were sent here for. Well, yes and no. I remember many occasions in the last session, Mr. Speaker, when ~~e ~~ere hampered, and I do not want it to be repeated, ~.men ~~e were hampered. We wanted very much to do the husiness we were sent here to do, hut, Mr.

Speaker, if you have in the Chair, as we so often had in the l<1.st session, someone Hho was so hlatanly partisan that we were prf!vented from doing our ~~orl( then, '1r. Speaker - SO~ HON. MF.MRERS: Oh, oh! MR • S I XI-IONS : Yes, th~v wtJl trv, they will try. They would rather have a little nettv exchange of politics than get on with the husiness of this House, Mr. Speaker, hut t w:l.ll not be sucked into that, and I am talking about the previous deputy sneaker. And I say that on occasion, because he was - '1F. ROBERTS: MR. Silo!MONS: '!R . 'l.ORERTS: MR. SIMMONS: He nut dmm censure motions.

It was never done he fore. Pardon? ~~e put dm4n censure motions. That is right. ~ve did and 1ve made it clear, Hr. Speaker. He stood by what we believed. He even put down censure motions on the deputy sneaker last time. t do not want that situation to reneat itself for that reason or for any other reason. Mr.

Speaker, it is a regrettable set of circumstancf:'" ·in which we find ourselves, and I fint' myself wantin.l! to repeat, because this could all have been avoided had the ~overnment Honse Leader and/or the Premier taken it upon themselves to seek out nrivatelY a nominee who was acneptable to all persons in the Jlouse. Now, Mr. Speaker, bamboozling, railroading aside, and all the words that one can bring to hear on the subject will not 3244

T·farch JR, 1Cl7fi Tape no. 1225 'Page 3 - mw Mr. Simmons. subtract from the- vou know,R11 the arguments about tradition and cour~P~i~F and what is unprecedented and what is shocking in this House this afternoon .,. will not subtract from the very fact that I state that this all could have been avoided if prior to three o'clock there had heen a consultation in terms of a nominee Nho ~~ould he acceptable to all persons in the House. Now this will be railroaded through. The ~overnment will vote for it. But what a sad turn of events, Mr.

Speaker, that we will have in the r.ha:f.r not onlv somebodv who does not have the support of all the members of the House in that capacity as Deputy Chairman but also, Mr. Speaker, the public knowledge that he does not have that support. ~d that is even more damaging, Mr. Speaker, to the pursuit of the functions of this House. And I find it extremely sad and extr~~elv rer.rettable. Arrogance will force it through. I hope that saner minds : wou] rl see the wisdom of withdrawing the nominee, and I invite the government House Leader to consider this, to t-7ithdraw the name nlaced in nomination.

There is obviously not a big rush. The gentleman in question has already been in the Chair a couple of times this week, if my memorv serves me right. And the tradition of this House is such that 'He can call on other members. I~ the Deputy Speaker has reason to want to absent himself from the Chair for . a neriod then we have other members. T. believe, the member for l>o?,o (Cant.Finsor) on occasion last session occupied the Chair, and I believe there are other members. I believe I have seen the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) in the Chair and other persons as well.

So we are not in short supply in terms of people to temporarily occupy the Chair. There is no real haste here, Mr. Speaker. He have r:one tP.n or 3245

March 18, 1976 Tape 1226 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: twelve sitting days without a confirmed Deputy Chairman. I invite the government House Leader to consider what has been said this afternoon, and to withdraw the name that has been placed the nomination, and to consult privately with all the parties represented in this House with a view to findiug a nominee who is acceptable to all parties in this House and all members in this House. The normal, the ordinary successful functioning of the House, Mr. Speaker, requires at least that.

And I invite the government House Leader to take that into serious consideration instead of rushing into the partisan thing to do here, to railroad it through as they will. We can count the votes, anrl we know how this will go. That is not the issue. It should not be a partisan issue. It should be an issue, Mr. Speaker, which commands the acceptance of every member of this House. The course of action is open to the government House Leader now to withdraw the name placed in nomination and to consult with all parties with a view to arriving at a nominee who will command the acceptance of every member of this House.

SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! Let me make an announcement. This being Thursday at 5:30P.M., a motion to adjourn is deemed to be before the House and at that time subjects may be debated. I have received myself three questions to be debated and His Honour the Speaker had received two previous to that 1which I ascertained just earlier today. I have therefore chosen the following as the subjects which will be debated at that time.

The Leader of the Opposition relating to a question asked of the Minister of Health in pertaining to the government's response to the problem of asbestos in Baie Verte. MR. ROBERTS: All right. Mr. Speaker, I think that was me,and my writing may be very bad. As I recollect, I raised the asbestos question not my friend and colleague from Trinity Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe). MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): I am very sorry. If I said otherwise I meant the hon. Leader of the Opposition. The hon. member from LaPoile 3246

March 18, 1976 Tape 1226 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker (Dr. Collins): (Mr. Neary) will debate the question relating to unemployment,which he asked of the Premier. And the bon. member'from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) will debate a question which he asked of the Minister of Transportation and Communications relating to the reopening of the Trans-Canada Highway West of Grand Falls. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, is that the order in which the three matters will be called, Sir? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) The hon. member from Kilbride. MR.

ROBERTS : If the bon. gentleman speaks now,as I recall it, he closes the debate,is that correct? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Well perhaps he would allow me to say a few words. MR. WELLS: Has not the''hon. member spoken? MR. ROBERTS: No, Sir, I have not spoken in this debate at all. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Is it in order for me to proceed? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you. No.I say to the bon. gentleman opposite that I hado4poken once or twice on some of the'innumerable points of order which have been raised. Mr.

Speaker, the issue which is before the House now,! submit, is very clear-cut. And it is most unfortunate that it had to be raised in the way in which it is raised or it has been raised 1 or it will be put to the test. Let me say right at the outset that I have no quarrel with the gentleman from Harbour Grace (Mr. Young). Let me go on to say that we have had our differences of opinion. We certainly have, Mr. Speaker.

We had an incident in the House four or five years ago of which I took no pride, and I believe the hon. gentleman took no pride, but that in itself is history, just as there was in this Rouse the other day an incident which the Premier engaged in some behaviou~ that was in every way as represhensible as anything which

March 18, 1976 Tape 1226 PK - 3 Mr . Roberts: the gentleman from Harbour Crace and I entered into. The Premier was not , I am sure , in any way proud of this. I am quite sure that he was ashamed of himself . I am quite sure t hat , as he said in the House, he withdrew unequivocally the remarks which he had made with reference to the gentleman from Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). 1 have no personal quar rel "'ith the gentleman from Harbour Grace. I have no political friendship for him, but he has no political friendship for me. That is fair enough, Mr. Speaker. 3248

March 18, 1 Q71; Tape no. 1227 'Page 1 - 1TIW Mr. Roberts. -- -- ----- He has sought election and he has heen electecl as a member opno,;inp, the partv ~·Tith which I am associated. Fair game~ He has tw1.ce heen elected in the district of Harbour r,race as the mem~er for that clistrict. In each time I believe he has '"on with quite a good vote.

In fact I think this last time the han. p,entlP.man,if I am not mistaken 1won with .1ust about a ma1oritv of the votes in his constituencv, which is some<~hat to his crecti t or verv much to his credit because it was a three-1~av fight in that -11.strict as in a number of cH.stricts throughout the Province,ancl many other mP.mhers in a similar three-,~ay fight did not come tlJrough <>ith anvthinR like the sup,ort of a ma1ori tv of their constituents. The nremiP.r himR~1f ~irl not win fiftv per cent of the votes in his constituency. The gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) got forty per cent of the votes onlv cast in the district of Twillingate. He ~at more than anv other candidate 1which made him the member , in our svstem of tre first man past the POst p,ets electecl,but he clicl not have the sunport of an absolute ma.1ority of those who voted.

Nm~ hon. gentle111en onposite mav or may uot believe ine an.-1 that iR to he tlJPir choice. llut I sav v7i thout any hesitation or anv reservation or anv "'~lification,and without anv fear of tn1tbful contracHcti.on, I do not question the validity of the beliefs of hon. p.:entlemen, I do not question their right to hold those beliefs or the fact that thev ·may rold them. · That is their choice, Sir. I am not responsible for what han. gentlemen opnosite hel1eve anv more than they are not responsible for what I believe. llut I will sav that I have noth1nr: ar.ainst the r,entleman from Harbour Grace (Mr.

Y.oung), nothing at all. I believe he does his best, which is all any of us can -Ia, to renresent his constituents in this House and outside. I bel:!eve he cloes his best,,~hich is all that anv of us can do,to represent his nartv, hath 1.n this House and outside. That is not the issue now, Sir, which 3249

'l'ane no. 17~7 l'aP'e ? - 111':< ~~,_y_o_h_e_l:J::" . '"" haw• nnn~r n!Rcussion. It is a matter to me of infinite re~>:ret that han. ~Pntlf'men onnoRite have chosen deliheratelv and knowingly ""'· r. to turn or to tr" to turn the nehate in this lO'av. That is their tactic. That is tl,eir rlevice. Ue have seen tt hefore. T·lell they can do ''hat thev wish, qir. 1Je vdll let tlJe neonle .iudge. It is entirelv un to them, the neopl!' "ho sent us here,to iudge Hhat p,oes on in thjs now'<e. That is the wav it slJouln he, and that :l.s the lvav it is.

Han. r.entlemen opnosite 1'1av TTell nretend- indeed I would not he surnrisen if at some noint we are to turn on the television tonight ann the PreMier l•ere to he savinr;, oh, it is all .1ust a nersonal attac\ on tlJe gentleman from ~arhour Grace (Mr. Young). "0"''1'.__!·1~1.:..._]~~ '!ear, hear: ~·.....!:..':!1!'~-.!:c;_, TTell, !;fr, tlJat is rloing the gentleman from 1-Tarhour Grace (Hr. Younr;) a disservice. It is iloinp; the Premier a nisservice. It is doinp; this House a nisservice. Noborly on this side and in this, if nothing else, I know T sneal<- for the gentleman from LaPoile (Hr.

Nearv), haR anvth:!ng agairmt thP gentleman for Harbour r.race (~r. Youn~>;), nothinp; nt a11. Hear, hear: ~-·--~O~J:'l'~_:. He is as goon a man as tl]e Tories have, Sir. He is as good a man as the Tories have. '11'. !-'~TY:.P..:_ To a noint of order, Mr. Speaker. A ooint of order. ~"-:-.2::.·_CATl~P: I wonder, 'fr. ST>eaker. if the hon. Leader of the nnnosition can tell the House. then if the remarks made hy his coll<>ague, the member for Burp,eo - Bay d 'F.spoir ('~r. Simmons) a fer" moments asro, at lvhich time he stated that the hon. memher was unnccentnh le.

Thnt to me ts harrllv a vote of confidPnce in the TllE'lT\her for Jlarhour C':race (Mr. Young). I wonder will he sav now i.f he '"as statinP: his nartv's policv when he made that remark .iust a fe« minutes a~o in 1-,is speech? 3250

'...!. Tape no. 12?.7 Pa~e ~ - l1lW MR. ROR:f'RT~: Mr. Sneaker, to that noint of order. The hon. ~entleman from St. Marv's - The Canes (Mr. W. Carter),who should know better, is tryinl!; to enter into the debate; That is his ri~ht, hut not his ril!;ht under a noint of order. There is no point of order, Sir, and unless Your Honour wishes to make a ruling I would pronase to go ahead. MR. SPV.AKV.R (Dr. Collins): I would rule that no point of order has been raised. Perhaps it would have been more proper to have asked the hon. Leader of the Opposition to vield momentarily. }~. RnRERTS: Thank vou, ~r.

Speaker, and I hope the gentleman from St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. N. Carter),who has sat in this and other Legislative Chambers for a long time,would heed Your Honour's advice and then follow it if he wishes. Mr. Speaker, I was saying that I have no quarrel with the gentleman from Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) - none at all. After the incident to which advertion has heen made by those on the other side, which was four or five years ago, we shook hands outside. I have always been taughttand I do believe,that that is the end of anything.

I have no quarrel with the hon. gentleman other than when election time comes I will do my best to defeat his party,as he will do his best to defeat my "Party. I really have no personal or professional quarrel with him. I am not convinced of his ability to be Deputy Chairman of the Committees of this House, hut that is not the reason I am going to vote against this motion. I 1~ould be quite willing to let the hon. gentleman take the Chair and let his conduct of the Chair, Sir, be the determinate of whether mv opinion was validly founded or not. 3251

~arch 18, 1976 Tape 1228 (afternoon) ~1t . RO!lEP-TS: My friend from Burgee-Bay D 'Espoir (lrr. Simmons) has made up his nand,and that is his right. On this side we make up our own minds as we wish. Tile hen. member for Harbour Grace n1r. Young) has not, IB-1 I think it is fair to say, not been one of those, Sir, who enters into the back and forth of points of order and of parliamentary debate.

He debates, he says his piece on a question that is of concern to him and ~:~ives us his views and his opinions, but I think it is fair to say, Sir, that he is not one of the members of this House ~Tho has made a bit of a study of the procedural matters. There are many han. members ''ho have. The han. member for St. John's !Jest (Hr. Crosbie) knows quite a bit about parliamentary procedure. Not as much as he would believe, not as much as he would have us believe)but a certain amount, much more than most of us in this Fouse. His friend and colleague, the gentleman from Kilbride (Nr.

Hells) has certainly learned quite a bit about parliamentary procedure and is kno~Jledgeable in it. Sir, the gentleman from St. John 1 s East (Mr. Harshall), ~1ho ¥Jas House Leader for, ¥1hat, four sessions, three sessions~! believe, knows a certain amount about parliamente~ry procedure. The gentleman from Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood) has been twent y-four or twenty-fjve years of his life in this House dealing in points of order and dealing in parliamentary procedure 1 and a number of gentlemen on this side - my friend and c0lleague from Trinity-Bay de Vercle (~•r. F.

Rowe) has mastered large sections of the rules and the pracUces of this House. I do not claim to be an expert, but I have mixed up in enough debate that I have had my nose buffed in the metaphorical sense enough times that I have learned some of the rules or some of the'not' rules. J'r. Speaker, the gentleman from Harbour Grace O!r. Young) - and it is not disgrace to him - is not one of those who has made any study of parliamentary procedure. It is not anything against him. It is not anything for him. It is just a straight statement of fact. llut those on the other side, Nr.

Speaker, ~Jho say that those of us 3252

-'- March 18, 1976 Tape 1228 (afternoon) IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: who will vote against this motion are doing so for personal animosity, Sir, I reject that, It is spurious. It is d*spicable. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Row do you know he has not studied parliamentary procedure? MR. ROBERTS: Nr. Speaker, the hon. member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) asks how I know he has not studied parliamentary procedure, That is a good question, Sir, to which I would say he may have studied. He has never •hown it. He has never made any effort to display it in the House.

I would find it passing strange, Sir, that a man would enter into the somewhat esoteric realms of parliamentary procedure, because it is really of little import beyond the walls of this Chamber. Most of these points of order and these fine debates on parliamentary points are of little interest to any of our constituents, of little interest. I do not think anybody in - I U&ve representtd a district in this House now, Sir, for ten years. I have been elected in four general elections. Nobody has ever come up to me in my constituency,and I will wager the hon. gnetleman from Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) who has been elected thrice out of four trys if I am correct - yes thriee out of four trys. He is batting - MR. LUNDRIGAN: Six or seven times. I was defeated for to~u councils. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, the hon. gentleman may - the people who know him best may well have defeated him,but that is neither here nor there. I am speaking of parliaments, this parliament here and the parliament at Ottawa. He has been elected thrice out of - _MR. LUNDRIGAN: Thrice out-of four times. MR. ROBERTS: No1 that is not parliamentary. But anyway he has been elected three times.

I will wager, Sir, a modestamount that nobody, Sir, has ever come up to him in his campaigns and said, what do you know about parliamentary proce4ure. So while the gentleman from Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) may very well have mastered parliamentary procedure - for all I know, Mr. Speaker, He goes home and he takes E~skine ~1ay 1 s Parliamentary Practice and he reads it for an hour or two two before going to bed,as many people hitherto and,I fear~not today, 3253

larch l R, 1976 Tape 1228 (afternoon) Ill-3 I:R. ROBI:~TS: as many people hitherto used to read the bible before going to bed. ?-'aybe the !ton. gentleman reads l!ay and Beauchesne anJ all the authorities. I do not kno\·' that. But all I vill say is, }'r. Speaker, if he has amassed an d accumulated that knowledge he has kept it very much to himself. Nr . Speaker, the mere fact that the hou . gentleman in our opinion is not • mas ter,or not even 1 would suggest , a mediun master or a minicum master of parliamentary practice, is not the issue here . The issue befo re this Chai r now - _lfl' .

LVN nP.I G~: You said a fe,~ moments a go t hat he was not infom<'tl "" th• rule s . nr. nonr-:nr s: Hr . Spe ;~ker, the hon. gentlerw.n from Grand Falls (''r. t.und r ignn) and persists in tryin g to ha rass . Uis only role jn the Hous e , S,ir, is IJecomin n one of that of the cheerleader . :~ow, Sir , I clo not cheer him . I do not wish him to cheer me. All I ~rould ask is that be restrain himsel.f when we speak,just as we shall rest rain ourse lves ~-'hen he speaks. He knows a fair bit about the rules of the House.

Ue has been called to order enough times ,here and in oth er hous es , that he has learned a lot. I would mer ely ask th:1t he 3254

March 18, 1976 Tape No. 1229 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: afford me and my colleagues the same courtesy which he t~ould expect us and which we will endeavour to affordclto him, namely that he shall remain silent when another hon. member speaks. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear: Hear! MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, the issue before the House now, the issue which we will decide in casting our votes whenever the vote is called, the issue, Sir, before the House is quite simply the right and the rights of this House with respect to its officers, Let there be no hesitation in agreeing that the government have the responsibility and the privilege and the right, if one wishee to use that word, to organize the Hous