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October 21, 1998

36th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L047 - Wed 21 Oct 1998 / Mer 21 Oct 1998 1

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

SENIORS' HEALTH SERVICES

PROPERTY TAXATION

LIBRARY WEEK

EMERGENCY SERVICES

HIGHWAY SIGNS

LAKE ERIE STEEL CO

SCHOOL ACCOMMODATIONS

COLLÈGE BORÉAL

CHATHAM CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

VISITOR

ORAL QUESTIONS

PROPERTY TAXATION

LONG-TERM CARE

FAMILY RESPONSIBILITY OFFICE

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

CLASS SIZE

SMALL BUSINESS

AIR QUALITY

SCHOOL CLOSURES

ADDICTION AND MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

HYDRO RATES

PETITIONS

MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

HEALTH CARE

PROPERTY TAXATION

SCHOOL CLOSURES

PROPERTY TAXATION

BEAR HUNTING

PROSTATE CANCER

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

HERITAGE CONSERVATION

DENTAL CARE

PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITALS

ABORTION

ORDERS OF THE DAY

HIGHWAY 407 ACT, 1998 / LOI DE 1998 SUR L'AUTOROUTE 407

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

SENIORS' HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): Yesterday over 300 seniors from the Alliance of Seniors to Protect Canada's Social Programs gathered from across Ontario to show their displeasure with the Harris government and how their current health and long-term-care policies are hurting the seniors of our province.

It is a sad day when the most senior members of our society feel it is necessary to protest and fight for what they're entitled to: respect, fair treatment and a high level of care from the health care system. It is a disgrace to see what the Harris government is not doing for those who need help and depend on programs that either no longer exist or are a shadow of what they used to be.

If organizations such as the Alliance of Seniors to Protect Canada's Social Programs don't speak up and protest, their voices will not be heard by this government.

It's interesting to note that the ministers of health and long-term care did not even send a representative to listen to stories of suffering and hardship due to the decline of our health care system. The descriptions of elderly friends being rushed through treatment so as not to take up valuable bed space and treated without the dignity and compassion that all in our society deserve was shocking.

Our community care access centres are turning to for-profit home care providers that provide care at lower cost. But at what cost?

The Alliance of Seniors to Protect Canada's Social Programs has had enough and is not going to take this abuse and neglect any more from the Harris government. I commend these seniors for having the courage to stand up and pledge to work to achieve the change and respect that the seniors of Ontario deserve.

PROPERTY TAXATION

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): Yesterday and today we see unfolding the next

chapter in the ongoing property tax saga of the Mike Harris government.

We now have Ernie Eves threatening to bring in yet another bill, bill number 8 this will be, to fix another part of the problem. He's finally realizing and admitting, although not in so many words but with his threatened action, that the property tax mess they have created is causing problems.

What they are seeing, and what we have seen in the actions of the government, is the realization that a problem they thought was limited to the confines of Toronto is in fact a provincial issue. It's hurting the ministers and it's hurting the government, because now they have such former Tory members as Markham mayor Don Cousens saying they are going to lead a revolution, a rebellion, down to Queen's Park if they don't fix this problem.

While I'm not particularly happy about the reasons that have led this government to finally realize that this is a problem - because the reasons, as I see them, have been more political than real in terms of understanding the problems they have caused for small businesses and for homeowners - I am glad that the minister and the government are finally admitting, as I say, not in words but in their actions, that they want to see the property tax problem addressed.

Maybe we will see bill number 8, but I think the only sensible thing to do would be for the government to admit that they made a mistake once and for all.

LIBRARY WEEK

Mr Tim Hudak (Niagara South): I am pleased to rise today to inform all the members of the House that communities across Ontario this week are celebrating Library Week.

As we all know, libraries make a significant contribution to Ontario's quality of life. In fact, this year's theme, "Ontario Public Libraries - For Your Information," focuses on the role of libraries as key providers of information in communities across the province. In fact, in my riding of Niagara South, Port Colborne, Fort Erie and Wainfleet libraries are joining in the celebrations.

On Monday morning, Tim Hudak, MPP, was the celebrity librarian of the day. I put in a two-hour shift at the Wainfleet Public Library, walked in a librarian's shoes for a couple of hours. In addition, they're having writing competitions at the Wainfleet library.

At the Fort Erie library there are trivia contests to help citizens understand the role libraries play and the system they have, quizzing participants on everyday tasks and research that libraries do. Also at the Fort Erie library, food donations: If you don't want to pay your fine in cash, please bring a non-perishable food item, which will be donated to those in need. An excellent idea.

This week, which is being marked in Niagara South and across Ontario, is a special opportunity for all of us to reflect on the significance of libraries and to celebrate their valuable contribution to our communities.

EMERGENCY SERVICES

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): Dismay, disbelief, disillusionment, disgust, disenchanted, disenfranchised, disapproving and disappointed are only a few of the words which describe the reaction of the Sudbury community in finding out that our Sudbury Regional Hospital received no new funding from yesterday's emergency room funding announcement.

Our region cannot believe the total disregard Mike Harris has for our health care system. He has once again abandoned the residents of my city and our region, along with the Sudbury health care system. He has again reinforced the message that he will not put adequate funding into our health care system.

This is just the latest slap in the face to our health care providers in Sudbury. This government is going to slash $27.5 million from our operating budget, and even though Inco's smelter is Canada's second-largest emitter of known cancer-causing agents, Mike Harris continues to refuse to establish a panel to investigate the effects of industrial factors in the workplace, which I have repeatedly requested, along with Cancer Care Ontario. "Let them die of lung cancer" is Mike Harris's attitude.

The reality is simple: Mike Harris doesn't care about quality health care for Sudburians. Through his actions he has shown his disdain and disregard for Sudburians. If it is a fight Mike Harris wants, he has angered the people and we will fight.

HIGHWAY SIGNS

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I rise to notify the government of the many complaints I've received from constituents, operators of tourism businesses and municipalities over the increases in the rates charged by the Ministry of Transportation for signs along highways. The rates for signs along the TransCanada Highway, Highway 17, have risen this way: In 1995, they were $60 a year; in 1996, $110 a year; and this year, 1998, they've been raised to $350 a year, a 300% increase. Secondary highway rates have gone up to $150 to $250 a year.

There was no notice of this pending increase. The decision was made by the ministry in January 1998, but invoices were not sent out until the last week of September 1998, after the tourism season was pretty well over in our region. The Ministry of Transportation officials did not consult with anyone in northern Ontario on these increases, not even the northern Ontario officials of their own ministry.

Why is it the government is making these charges? It seems that the government is just charging what the market will bear. This is nothing but a money grab by the Tory government and it's going to harm tourism and small businesses in northern Ontario. It's time for this government to rescind these increases and go back to the more reasonable rates.

LAKE ERIE STEEL CO

Mr Toby Barrett (Norfolk): Recently my wife and I attended the first family day held since 1983 at the Lake Erie Steel Co. Close to 4,000 people attended over two weekends. As well, about $1,000 was raised by employees and their families for local charities.

The Lake Erie Steel Co is a subsidiary of Stelco. It's located on the north shore of Lake Erie, in my riding of Norfolk, and provides over 1,300 direct jobs to our area.

I'm very proud to tell the House that this major employer in my riding, Lake Erie Steel, has announced a $120-million upgrade to its facilities at Nanticoke. This upgrade includes the addition of a third reheat furnace and two downcoilers in the plant's 200-centimetre hot strip mill. This will increase steel production by 455,000 tonnes, bringing the plant's total output to 2.46 million tonnes a year. The $120-million expansion comes on the heels of a $105-million investment earlier this year that saw a new slab caster installed, as well as a second casting house built into the blast furnace unit.

I would like to congratulate the Lake Erie Steel Co and its parent company, Stelco, on their expansion and their investment in our area. These companies continue to ensure the long-term viability of the steel industry and provide good jobs to Ontarians.

SCHOOL ACCOMMODATIONS

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Fort William): Last night parents in the Peel region gathered to discuss their concerns about the health hazards their children are exposed to by attending school in portables contaminated with mould. Experts provided testimony on the risks posed by the mould that's growing in literally hundreds of portables being used in Peel-area schools. Parents told distressing stories of the ill health experienced by their sons and daughters who have been sitting in these classrooms.

The Health Canada directives on this are very clear: Mould is dangerous, and where it is suspected there must be a process of assessment and remediation.

The Peel region school boards are recognizing this and are taking appropriate action. The Halton board, where this is also a problem, has done the same thing. But the boards have been given no money to fix the problem. The millions of dollars needed to replace or fix the mouldy portables is coming out of the budgets that are supposed to be used to do regular maintenance and major repairs, like fixing roofs before they fall in.

The problem of mould in portables has only recently been recognized as a serious health risk to children. It's an extraordinary situation that demands immediate responsible action by the provincial government, that you put guidelines in place requiring every board to assess the situation in their portables, and then the government should provide financial resources to the boards to deal with the problem.

Once again, this government has refused to take any responsible action. The minister says it's the boards' responsibility. But John Snobelen says that the money will flow. He told parents last night that the government will take action. He said: "There is a time for rhetoric and a time for action. Now is the time for action. Trust us, the money will flow."

I say to the Minister of Education, will you make good on your colleague's promise? When will the money flow?

COLLÈGE BORÉAL

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): Today I want to talk about the contribution of Collège Boréal. An educated and highly skilled workforce contributes to the high quality of community life. Since its inception in 1993, Collège Boréal has played an integral role in contributing to the economic and social life of northern Ontario.

Collège Boréal is the only francophone college in northern Ontario, with over 4,000 full- and part-time students who attend classes in seven satellite campuses: Elliot Lake, Hearst, Kapuskasing, New Liskeard, Sturgeon Falls, Sudbury and Timmins. This past year alone, enrolment has increased by 3.3%

Collège Boréal is particularly effective in forging links with the private sector to develop and coordinate programs that are useful for employers and students.

In their throne speech, the Conservative government stated that it will address the shortage of highly skilled workers, particularly in the area of high technology, and that it will explore every means of employing Ontario's advanced position in telecommunications hardware and in educating, training and learning software to support lifelong learning that allows all of us to adapt to the ever-changing job market.

These objectives we all agree with. They can only be achieved in concert with the development of strong post-secondary institutions across Ontario. In northern Ontario it is particularly important. Collège Boréal is now seeking, from both the federal and provincial governments, a renewal of the infrastructure grant. I understand that Dave Johnson is aware of this request. We ask him to act on this initiative now to make sure that Collège Boréal survives into the future.

CHATHAM CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS

Mr Jack Carroll (Chatham-Kent): Early last week I had the opportunity to participate in a groundbreaking ceremony to officially begin construction of the Chatham Christian Schools' new kindergarten-to-grade-12 school.

About 500 people, including students, teachers, parents and board officials, were on hand to celebrate this work in progress and the tremendous success of the fundraising to date. The Chatham Christian Schools Society, over the past year, has raised about $1.75 million of the total $3 million required to build this new building for September 1999.

There was also another reason to celebrate this event. The Chatham Christian Schools Society recently marked its 40th anniversary, having opened in 1957. The society currently operates both an elementary school and a high school. Over the past few years, growing enrolment and aging facilities have necessitated the construction of a new school.

I would like to congratulate the board of the Chatham Christian Schools and the Ontario Alliance of Christian Schools for their dedication to Christian education.

The parents also deserve congratulations. Despite paying full taxes for education, they also pay tuition to have their children receive a Christian-centred education. This commitment speaks to the dedication they have for their faith and their belief in educational choice. The values that the schools teach our young people are values that are all too often missing in society today. I wish the parents, students and the dedicated, hard-working teachers of the Chatham Christian Schools all the best.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): I beg leave to inform the House that today the Clerk received the ninth report of the standing committee on government agencies.

Pursuant to standing order 105(g)9, the report is deemed to be adopted by this House.

VISITOR

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): I want to take the opportunity, in the government members' gallery, to introduce Rick Thorpe, the MLA from Okanagan-Penticton at the British Columbia Legislature. Welcome.

ORAL QUESTIONS

PROPERTY TAXATION

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): I have a question for the Minister of Health. I'll just put them on notice of that and I'll proceed with my next question.

I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I want to review something with the minister that, but for the damage that it's going to cause to small business in Ontario, would be laughable. I want to review the history of property tax reform in this province.

First we started with Bill 106, then it was Bill 149, then it was Bill 160, then it was Bill 164, then it was Bill 16, then it was Bill 61, and now you tell us you're going to introduce one more. This has got to be the most painful comedy of errors ever experienced inside this Legislature.

I'm not sure I could put it any better than the Association of Municipal Clerks and Treasurers of Ontario did. They said, and keep in mind they said this several months ago: "This government, in its haste, is making legislation by the seat of its pants, without proper thought or planning. Yesterday's bill is amended by today's, which will likely be amended by tomorrow's."

Minister, when are you going to admit that you have screwed up royally when it comes to property tax reform in Ontario?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I welcome that question because I think everybody in this House recognizes and understands that the property tax system in Ontario was badly broken and has been that way for many decades.

This government at last had the courage to address an issue that has to be fixed. We have taken action to make sure that equity and fairness come back into the system. Is it a simple issue? No, it's not a simple issue; it's a very complex issue and something that has taken many decades to run into disrepair. It's going to take more than one day to fix.

That's why we gave municipalities in Ontario the opportunity and the tools to phase in increases and decreases over time. We had hoped they would do that, and many of them have. Many of the municipalities have done a fine job - the city of Toronto is a great example of that - and some have not, but we will not allow the municipalities to -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Supplementary.

Mr McGuinty: What do you think this means to the average person in this province - seven bills to reform property taxes? They think it's a joke. It speaks to incompetence. It speaks to mismanagement. It speaks to a failure to listen to the people in the front lines who told you that you were going to cause all of this. Clerks and treasurers in our municipalities across Ontario said you were going to create chaos. We said that you were going to create a mess. You didn't want to listen to anybody. It seems to me the only accomplishment you've got here is that you're going to get yourself into the Guinness Book of Records.

No government has spent more time addressing one issue than you. You've taken a system that was in need of repair and brought it into greater disrepair - a tremendous accomplishment. You've made things worse.

We told you this was going to benefit big business and come at the expense of small business.

Why don't you just stand up, sound the retreat and admit that you have screwed up royally when it comes to repairing property taxes in Ontario?

Hon Mr Leach: Again, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question. At least they now recognize that there is something wrong with the system. It would have been a big help if you'd recognized that 10 years ago.

The Leader of the Opposition asks what this means to the average taxpayer. It means that there's going to be some fairness brought back to a system that is totally out of whack. When your government was in power -

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Members of the opposition, I want to hear the response. I can't. Minister.

Hon Mr Leach: The Leader of the Opposition says we're benefiting big business at the expense of small business, and that's exactly what we are going to prevent. If the municipalities don't take the action that is necessary to protect small business, this government will. What we're going to do is make sure that no segment of business and no segment of residential property taxpayers get hurt as a result of bringing in property tax reform.

The municipalities have the ability to make sure that the tax phase-in is dealt with in an equitable way. Many of them used those tools very effectively; many of them didn't. We are going to make sure that every business in Ontario is protected against high tax increases.

The Speaker: Final supplementary.

Mr McGuinty: I'm not sure there's a more telling metaphor about the incompetence and mismanagement of this government than the fact that it's taken seven bills, each later one to repair damage caused by the former, to address property tax reform in Ontario. We've got Ernie and Al, the Beavis and Butthead of property tax reform in Ontario.

In typical Mike Harris fashion, rather than assume responsibility for the damage you're causing, you've got the nerve, you've got the temerity, you've got the audacity to point the finger at municipalities and threaten them with another bill. Where do you get off telling municipalities that they've got to assume responsibility for the chaos you've created?

Hon Mr Leach: Something most people in this House would agree with is that this member would recognize incompetence because he's had a lot of experience with it.

We are saying that the property tax system in Ontario has been broken for decades. The Liberal government knew it, the NDP government knew it and our government knew it. Our government, this present government -

Interjections.

The Speaker: For heaven's sake, please come to order. Member for Oakwood, come to order.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Member for Yorkview, I don't want to discuss it with you; I want to hear him.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): We want to give him some time to think.

The Speaker: Then you've got to stop talking. Minister.

Hon Mr Leach: I think it's a great example of just how broken this system was. We said that this is an extremely complex issue to deal with, and this government has given the municipalities the ability and the tools to deal with it. If they don't use the tools we've given them, we will take whatever actions are necessary to ensure that small business in Ontario is not affected, that big business is not affected. There are ways and means of implementing the tax system in a fair and equitable way by phasing it in over a period of time. It took decades to do this -

The Speaker: Thank you.

LONG-TERM CARE

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Health. I want to return to the emergency room crisis created by your cuts to Ontario hospitals, and I want to return to your commitment and two things in particular.

One has already been addressed and that's your failure to deliver money that you promised to deliver immediately to emergency wards. There's another component to your commitment, though, that has not yet come under the light of day. You said that you would build 1,700 long-term-care beds to help create room in our emergency departments because of the backlog that your cuts have created. You said you were going to build 1,700 long-term-care beds. That's a commitment you made 185 days ago.

Can you confirm in this House today, Minister, that you have yet to build a single one of those 1,700 long-term-care beds that you committed to build?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Health): To the Leader of the Opposition, if you take a look at the recommendations and the breakdown of the $225 million, you will see that those 1,700 beds are to be up and running over the next 18 months.

Mr McGuinty: Eighteen months? You mean you are taking satisfaction in having made a commitment which you now tell us involves building 1,700 beds over the course of the next 18 months? We have a crisis today in emergency wards right across this province. It's one that needs to be addressed today. It needs to be resolved immediately.

You were shamed into coming up with money yesterday, six months after you made your commitment. Are you now telling me that, as Minister of Health, you are quite satisfied to know that 1,700 long-term-care beds that are needed immediately are going to be built sometime during the next 18 months? Is that good enough for you? Is that what you're saying?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I will refer that to the Minister of Long-Term Care.

Hon Cameron Jackson (Minister of Long-Term Care, minister responsible for seniors): I want to thank my colleague for the question and tell the Leader of the Opposition that the reason we need transitional long-term-care beds in this province is because not one single long-term-care bed was built on your watch or the NDP watch for the last eight years. What part of an aging population did both your political parties and both your governments miss in this province?

The fact of the matter is that our government is faced with serious cuts from the federal government for services that aren't even covered under the Canada Health Act, and you stand in this House asking where those beds are when there isn't one mention of these beds in your red book that you campaigned on in the last election. Seniors weren't on your agenda a year ago. Now, all of a sudden, they're important to you.

This government has agreements for over 800 of these long-term-care beds to be implemented immediately. I'll tell the member opposite that those 800 beds will have patients transferred to them -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr McGuinty: I want to return to the Minister of Health. This is a health issue. This recommendation for 1,700 interim or temporary long-term-care beds came as a result of recommendations made inside that emergency report that said the best way to resolve this crisis was for you to come up with some money immediately and for you to build 1,700 long-term-care beds to help free up some space inside our emergency wards.

Once again, you failed to deliver the money in a timely way and you have failed to build now, six months later, one single, solitary long-term-care bed so desperately needed in our hospitals to free up space in the emergency departments. You failed on both counts. You failed to deliver the money in a timely way and you have failed to build those beds, both of which were recommended in that report and both of which you committed to doing.

How can Ontarians have confidence in you as our Minister of Health if you keep failing, failing and failing time and time again to deliver quality health care and to honour your own commitments?

Hon Mr Jackson: This government is currently upgrading 13,000 substandard long-term-care beds that were quite acceptable to both your government and the NDP government, a major investment to improve the quality of life of residents who are not just sleeping in those beds but living in those facilities. That's a commitment this government has made, after waiting 20 years for the last three governments to deal with it. That's the first commitment we made.

We made a $100-million commitment so that we can increase the number of nurses in every single one of the 56,000 nursing home beds in this province, because the last two governments didn't put in place the kind of funding that dealt with the kinds of growing acuity of persons in nursing homes. I've indicated in this House that over 800 of these beds are immediately ready in order to move people out of the hospital setting into the long-term-care setting. But we are deeply disappointed that we've been unable to inspire the hospitals to work with positive solutions, especially in the GTA, where we have our growth factors -

The Speaker: New question, leader of the third party.

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is also for the Minister of Health, and I want to say to the government, we don't dispute that you are wonderful at making announcements. The problem is, your announcements are always bogus, phony, empty, cynical announcements. We have to bring you in here and expose you and embarrass you before you finally put the money back into health care, the money that you and you alone have taken out of health care.

This, Minister, is the emergency services working group report. You know, the report that said there's a real problem in emergency care, especially in hospitals in Toronto. It says in here, first recommendation: 850 long-term-care beds to be funded within 90 days, $18.9 million. That will relieve some of the pressure so that people who are in acute care beds can move on to long-term-care beds. You were supposed to fund this by the summer.

Minister, can you tell us what's happened? You want to take credit for health care. What's happened to these long-term-care beds?

Hon Mrs Witmer: Again I will refer to the Minister of Long-Term Care.

Hon Mr Jackson: I want to thank the leader of the third party for the question. Soon after that announcement, this province and the Ministry of Health sent out a request for proposal all across the province and opened up and offered 1,700 long-term-care spaces. Unfortunately, over the course of that RFP we only received about 850 to 900 applications. You will appreciate that with the highest standards in this province for care for seniors in long-term-care facilities, you just don't pick up the phone and get a licence to operate a nursing home bed in this province. Every site has to be approved as a suitable, appropriate and safe site for a senior in the province of Ontario.

We now have in place 850 of these sites that we have approved and we'll be announcing those tomorrow. The sites are in the process of being notified as we speak, and that is the process we had to follow. But you don't just pick up the telephone in this province and say, "I'd like to open up my doors and allow a bunch of seniors to receive care." These have to follow the most rigid guidelines in North America for safety -

The Speaker: Thank you. Supplementary.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): Minister, the crisis in long-term care has just been made worse by the threat of the closing of Riverdale Hospital in just 18 months. That's a hospital that's already experienced and ready to do the care you're talking about.

Four hundred and thirty-five very sick people are going to be evicted from their home. Where are those people, many of them on dialysis or with severe brain injuries, going to go? These people require up to 11 hours of care a day and an average of $242 a day in treatment. Under your plan, they will only get $96 a day. Minister, where are those people going to go to get the treatment they need?

Hon Mr Jackson: I'd like to tell the member opposite that the programs that are being provided in long-term-care facilities are unique to long-term-care facilities. We're not asking people to have their meals in their beds and to see a nurse on a limited time during the day.

When we transfer from a hospital to a long-term-care setting, a major thing happens. There is a shift in the amount of contact that they are having with nursing support and attendant care support. There is congregate dining, so we activate these seniors and persons with disabilities and move them into those kinds of settings. Frankly, they seem to be a lot happier and to appreciate that kind of an environment, in most instances, far more than they do a hospital setting.

The announcement of the additional approximately 800 new placements will allow us to manage the transition from hospital care to community-based care, which is what seniors have asked us for, to receive care closer to home.

Ms Churley: But surely you see this doesn't add up. The money you haven't delivered is supposed to create 2,200 long-term beds in Toronto. There are 4,000 people waiting to get into nursing homes in Toronto and only 2,200 long-term beds planned. Now we see, if Riverdale closes, 435 added to the waiting list. Riverdale Hospital has the building, the land, the facilities, the staff and the expertise to do the job. They also have $41 million in the bank already to make the transition. The city of Toronto has given them the go-ahead. The Minister of Health refuses even to meet with the Riverdale staff. Minister, I ask you again, where are those people going to go to get the care they need?

Hon Mr Jackson: First of all, the Health Services Restructuring Commission made the decision as it relates to Riverdale Hospital. The second point I want to share with the member -

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Jackson: The second thing the Health Services Restructuring Commission recommended was an expansion of home care services, which we're pleased to report we've increased substantially in Metro and across this province, by 40% in two and a half years.

The third thing the Health Services Restructuring Commission recommended to the citizens of this province was that we aggressively expand the number of long-term-care beds in this province, given that for almost a decade no growth had occurred with the two previous governments. So this government made a historic commitment of 20,000 new beds in this province, and within two weeks we will be announcing the locations of 2,000 new long-term-care beds in the city of Toronto alone, a record for this province of expansion for seniors' services - unprecedented.

FAMILY RESPONSIBILITY OFFICE

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is for the Attorney General. A woman contacted the office of my colleague the member for Riverdale recently. Her name is Gail Ross. She has one daughter. She lives in Markham, but she doesn't have any confidence that the MPP for Markham would raise this issue, so she called us.

Gail Ross hasn't been receiving her support payments. She completed all the right forms and submitted them to the Family Responsibility Office in July. She spent months trying to reach someone, anyone, at the Family Responsibility Office. She has been diagnosed with cancer. She's facing the threat of eviction from her apartment. She has been calling the Family Responsibility Office and all she gets is either put on hold for hours at a time or the line is busy.

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Community and Social Services): Maybe if she'd gone to her MPP -

Interjections.

Mr Hampton: Minister, can you tell me why distressed women get only a busy signal from the Family Responsibility Office?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order.

Hon Charles Harnick (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): Certainly, if the story as he describes it is accurate, it's not an acceptable level of service. If the member will provide me with the details, I will make sure we check into this problem right away and I will get back to the member.

Mr Hampton: Another non-answer from the Attorney General. I guess the real answer came from the Minister of Community and Social Services who said that if this woman had taken it to a Conservative MPP, she would have gotten action.

We called the Family Responsibility Office -

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Hampton: I want to let the Attorney General know this: We contacted the Family Responsibility Office and on three separate occasions - keep in mind this is now October - they said that despite the fact her papers had been received at the office, they hadn't been put into the computers because their computers aren't working. This was in July.

Minister, when you laid off all those family support plan workers, when you closed all the regional offices, you told people: "Wait until we get this spanking new computer system. We're going to have a wonderful operation." First, we showed people that was frankly not true, because the computers weren't working then and they weren't working for six months later. Are your computers still shut down? Is this the spanking new operation you promised women across Ontario?

Hon Mr Harnick: Yes, the member is right that there was new technology put into the Family Responsibility Office in July. There was a period of time where there was a transition to the use of that technology. There has been extensive staff training. As I told the member, I'd be very pleased, if he would provide me with the details, to try to deal with the problem the constituent is having so her problem can be solved. If the member wants to provide me with that information, I'd be delighted to try to get an answer and get the problem resolved as fast as I can.

The Speaker: Final supplementary?

Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): It has been over two years now. You just shrug this off. You make excuses. Your computers aren't up and running. People aren't even answering the phone at the Family Responsibility Office. There are women and kids out there not getting their payment because your incompetence has resulted in an office that isn't operational.

One of our staff tried calling the FRO today. At 11:30 am it was busy; at 11:45 am, phone line's busy; 12 noon, phone line's busy. She tried every 15 minutes for over an hour and all she got was busy signals.

Minister, women in distress can't even make telephone contact with the FRO. I say to you, it's about time you simply resign and hand this responsibility over to one of your colleagues who can get this system operating effectively in a way you never have and obviously won't.

Hon Mr Harnick: I can tell you that in September the Family Responsibility Office disbursed $41.7 million, an increase of 39% over September 1994. We have now reached the stage where 2,000 clients daily are helped on the telephones at the Family Responsibility Office, with an average wait time of eight minutes. This is a plan that involves 160,000 open files at any given time. If there are problems, I appreciate the co-operation of my colleagues in the Legislature. I advise the leader of the third party I would be happy to help the person he refers to if he will provide me with the information, which I don't know is forthcoming or not.

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): My question is for the Minister of Health. For the last year a charity called the Children's Hospital Foundation in London has been paying the wages for a cancer doctor for kids at the pediatric oncology department at the London Health Sciences Centre. Everyone there and in your ministry knows that the centre requires four cancer doctors, but you're only funding two. A third doctor was paid for by the Children's Hospital Foundation for the last year, but they can't do that any more.

The two cancer doctors on staff are working under considerable stress and your underfunding is going to affect the cancer treatment these children are receiving. In fact, Dr Cairney and Dr McKusker are dealing with 250 children each. The standard for Ontario is 80 children under each doctor's care.

Minister, how is triple the workload affecting these children in cancer care?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Health): First of all, let me say to the member opposite we do recognize the very important need for the provision of appropriate and timely care for children who suffer from cancer. That is why in April of this year we provided $3.2 million to the Hospital for Sick Children. As you know, we have the Pediatric Oncology Group of Ontario who help us in identifying the areas of greatest need.

We also recognize that in London and Hamilton there is need. We are continuing to work with POGO in order that we can make sure that as we move forward, money continues to be provided to respond to the needs. In fact, recently POGO also indicated to us that we need to be setting up some pilot pediatric oncology treatment programs and we made available funding of $350 million.

Mrs Pupatello: Minister, that's exactly the same answer you gave several weeks ago in this House and today they are still dealing with two cancer doctors when they require four.

The president of ChildCan from that area, which is the new charity that has been asked to fund the wages of another doctor - and they don't think they can - said in terms of having to lobby the government, "How far can we go, out on the streets with bald-headed kids and picket signs?" Is this what you're expecting these parents of children with cancer to do in order to make money move from your government? It has been identified as an area of need. You said the same thing in this House weeks ago and we're seeing a very familiar pattern within your ministry.

Your response was supposed to come within two weeks. That was last week. Ed Vermeulen, whose three-year-old daughter has leukemia, said that his daughter's doctor went through 19 days straight, 24 hours a day, on call. Minister, Ed Vermeulen wrote to you. He wrote to the London MPPs. He told you about this a long time ago. Do these children have to come to Queen's Park with picket signs?

Hon Mrs Witmer: Again let me say to the member opposite that we have made progress this year. We have responded to the requests of POGO, the Pediatric Oncology Group of Ontario. We have made available $3.2 million to the Hospital for Sick Children. We have made available $350 million just last month, in the month of September, for the four oncology programs in Thunder Bay, Kitchener-Waterloo, North York and Sudbury. We are continuing to review the situation in London and in Hamilton and we'll soon be in a position where we can flow the money to those centres.

I think, as you can appreciate, our government has made tremendous strides forward in responding to the needs of these children.

CLASS SIZE

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I have a question to the Minister of Education and Training. Minister, your government has spent about $2.7 million this autumn on propaganda aimed at convincing parents that your government has capped class sizes for their children. The class size count for school boards will come to us at the end of this month; then the truth will out. We'll hear more about classes like the one at McKellar school in Thunder Bay where 40 grade 7 students share one big, noisy classroom, or Randall Public School in Markham where 37 grade 8 students are in one class, or the split grade 7-8 class in Scarborough with 40 students.

I have a letter from Heidi Butler, an 11-year-old at A.E. Duffield public school in London, wherein she says there are 33 students in grade 6. She asks: "How can one teacher help all 33 kids? How does this improve learning for students?" What's your answer, Minister?

Hon David Johnson (Minister of Education and Training): These are the very issues that we're attempting to address through the capping of the average class size. For example, when the NDP was in power between 1991 and 1995, without exception the average class size across the province of Ontario increased at the elementary level each and every year. This has been going on for too long and that's exactly why for the first time ever this government introduced the cap on the average class size. At least we've stopped the growth and the increase both at the elementary and at the secondary level.

Because it is an average cap, there will be some classes higher and some classes lower, but at least the classes that are above the average aren't continuing to grow and the classes below the average aren't continuing to grow. We've stopped the growth. Having said that, I look forward to the day when this government will be able to take the next step, which is to address those classes which are beyond the acceptable level.

Mr Wildman: This is the flip side of the school closure issue, where the government's funding formula is forcing the closure of smaller schools.

The government has been advertising maximum average class sizes instituted by this government, but in its advertising the government fails to point out that the government actually legislated maximums that already existed. The maximum average class sizes that you have instituted was an attempt simply to entrench the status quo. But you've noticed there's a problem with that and so you've offered schools the possibility of exemptions from the maximum average.

Minister, how many school boards have requested an exemption this year from your regulations on maximum average class size?

Hon David Johnson: Again, the problem has been the growth over the period of time when the NDP was in power. In 1991, the average class size at the elementary level was about 22. During their term of power it grew year after year after year. We have said no, that can no longer continue to grow, for the benefit of our children.

I'm not sure. I know some boards have asked for an exemption but I have not granted one exemption, I'll tell you that. I have not granted one exemption to any school board in Ontario because this government is attempting to improve the quality. This is a provincial standard we have set. Your government wouldn't set it. The Liberal government wouldn't set it. We have set this provincial standard and we believe it's important to improve the quality of education in the province of Ontario.

SMALL BUSINESS

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough-Ellesmere): My question is for the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism. I was very pleased that you could attend the Toronto Business Connextion breakfast during Salute to Small Business Week with me this morning. Toronto Business Connextion is a great Scarborough-based organization that encourages members of the business community to meet informally and to exchange ideas.

A number of interesting topics of conversation came up this morning and I was wondering if you would share with this House some ways that this government is encouraging a better climate for the business community.

Hon Al Palladini (Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism): I certainly want to thank the member for Scarborough-Ellesmere not only for the question but also for the opportunity to meet with some of her constituents.

I noticed during the discussion this morning that the group was very supportive of the climate this government has created for small business. We have reduced the deficit, we have reduced red tape and the barriers to business growth, and we are going to continue to do that by cutting the business corporate tax in half over the next eight years, at 4.75%, which will be the lowest in Canada. We cut the employer health tax and this means that 80% of Ontario's businesses will no longer have to pay that tax.

This government also believes its role is to create a positive climate for business investment. Looking at the number of successes in small businesses, I believe we are on the right track and doing what it needs. As the Minister of Municipal Affairs said earlier, we will not allow municipalities to impede small business growth with irresponsible taxes.

Ms Mushinski: Minister, I know it's very important to you personally to encourage and promote small business, as it is to all of us. Can you advise this House what programs your ministry has brought in to assist small business?

Hon Mr Palladini: In January of this year our ministry launched a newsletter called the Ontario Business Report to inform decision-makers of the different kinds of investments people make in our province. Small business enterprise centres have been opened throughout the province to make sure that there is available help. The wisdom exchange is another program, a series of networking conferences for presidents and CEOs of innovative growth firms. We also have a Young Entrepreneurs Program, which is available to young people from 18 to 29, in partnership with the Royal Bank.

Speaking of young entrepreneurs, I'm happy to recognize one of those young entrepreneurs, a Mr Dameion Royes, who is in the garment industry. He manufactures and produces hats, and he's very much of a success. His picture is on the front page of our bulletin. I would like an opportunity to share with Ontarians. If they want to have one of these things, we are on a Web site. All they have to do is go into our Web site: www.ontario-canada.com. They'd be surprised at what this government has done in such a short period of time to create a positive environment.

AIR QUALITY

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): My question is to the Minister of the Environment. Minister, as you're well aware, Ontario has the worst air quality problem of any jurisdiction in Canada. Ontario, at the same time, also has the dirtiest gasoline of any jurisdiction, not only in North America but among the leading industrialized countries in the world. It is 20 times dirtier than the acceptable level in the state of California. It exceeds the standards in most provinces and states that have been set. You also know that 6,000 people a year die prematurely in this province as a direct result of poor air quality.

You've made commitments in the past. You have spoken about the levels of sulphur in gasoline and the impact it has on people's lives in this province. You just came back from Halifax, from a ministers' conference dealing with the environment. Will you today commit to immediately bring in legislation that will take Ontario from having the dirtiest gasoline of any jurisdiction in North America to having the cleanest?

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): I have already committed Ontario to lowering our gasoline to at least 150 parts per million and perhaps even lower; 30 parts per million is my desire. We have been working along with the federal government. The federal government has expressed a desire to strike a Canada-wide standard for sulphur content in gasoline, and I think that's the way it should be done.

Mr Agostino: Minister, you can delay all you want on this. Your government has been in power for over three years. You know that under the Environmental Protection Act you as the minister unilaterally have the power to act and to bring in legislation that would exceed the standards in any jurisdiction in North America. You as the minister have that power.

We don't have time to wait. Every year, 6,000 Ontarians die as a result of air quality. When you sit and wait for the American or Canadian standard to be set, that's not good enough. That doesn't help the kids who are in hospitals because of asthma and bronchitis. It doesn't help the senior who can't go out on a bad air quality day because of a heart problem. We've got a crisis, a serious problem, and you have the power to immediately act to bring in the type of legislation that will reduce the killer sulphur level that we now have in gasoline in Ontario.

You have that power, but you're afraid of the petroleum companies. They've lobbied you too hard, they've gone after you too hard and you're now backing down. Again, will you commit today, you as Minister of the Environment in Ontario, to bring in legislation that will put us among the world leaders in gasoline -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you. Minister.

Hon Mr Sterling: I commit today to do what is right and proper in dealing with this issue. We will lower sulphur content in gasoline. When I became the Minister of the Environment, I was absolutely disgusted with the level of sulphur in gasoline which we have in Ontario.

During the Liberal administration, the government encouraged refineries in Sarnia to invest in equipment to produce high-sulphur gasoline. That resulted in Ontario having the highest sulphur in all of Canada. We are committed to lowering that, and we will lower it. We will undo the mistakes that you put upon this province.

SCHOOL CLOSURES

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): My question is to the Minister of Education. Minister, you know that thousands of people across the province are fighting potential closures of their schools. It's no different in my area. People like Heike Jende, Ivana Mirabelli, Anna Celietta and Mary Fernandez, from St Peter; Eleanor Bettelli, from St Raymond; Zenny Salines, from St Francis; Donina Lombardi, from St Lucy; and Ann Mary Chong, from St Michael, are all sick with worry with the fear that their schools are going to close.

Your rules say that a board that continues to operate at less than 100% capacity will not get funding. Many will have to close because of your ridiculous, mindless, heartless demand that schools operate at 100% capacity. Are you going to change the funding formula that will reassure most of these parents and these schools that their schools will stay open? Will you do that?

Hon David Johnson (Minister of Education and Training): There are other people who have other views on this matter. I have, for example, a letter from the chairperson of the board of the Hamilton-Wentworth Catholic District School Board, who indicates that they will proceed with a number of urgent capital needs. This is due to the new method by which the government is funding school boards for the construction of new pupil places and the flexibility built into the new model. He says, "We were extremely pleased that this could be achieved without the need to close elementary or secondary day schools."

There's an

article from the Cornwall Standard-Freeholder, from a trustee indicating the funding was welcomed, it's very good news. They're looking forward to construction of appropriate facilities.

I have a release here from OSSTF in the Durham district board, saying that the Durham District School Board has access to millions of dollars more this year than ever before.

We have attempted to provide fair and equitable funding to all the boards across the province of Ontario. They are taking that funding, making the decisions in conjunction with their parents and -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Supplementary.

Mr Marchese: I am happy, Minister, that some of these folks you mentioned are happy with you, but the people I referred to live in my area. Parents from St Peter, St Raymond, St Francis, St Lucy and St Michael are not going to be very pleased that the Hamilton board might be pleased with you. They're saying to you that they want their local schools to stay open.

They say: "Our local community schools are very important. They belong to the community and they are a focus for community activities and not just for students." That is what they're concerned about: their schools staying open. Your rules say the boards must decide by December 31 which schools will close or stay open. The decision and deadline that you have imposed determine whether a board will get any grants for new student spaces. These are your rules, your deadlines and your formulas that are going to in effect close many of the schools I've mentioned. What are you going to say to them that will reassure them their schools will stay open? What will you say?

Hon David Johnson: I do say that community schools are very important and I'm glad to see that the parents and the community are being involved in this process. As a matter of fact, this government has directed boards to involve their communities and their parents in determining these issues.

These are issues that have been dealt with over the course of the years. When the NDP was in power between 1990 and 1995, there were well over 100 schools closed across Ontario. School boards went through the same sort of decision-making process.

We are not requiring boards to make any decisions at any point in time. We are offering them the opportunity at the end of the year. If they wish to dispose of some of their capacity to be more eligible for new pupil places, then they are free to do that. But school boards will make these decisions by themselves, in conjunction with their parents. I think we should allow that the schools boards are more aware of their needs than perhaps some of the members of this Legislature.

ADDICTION AND MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Toby Barrett (Norfolk): My question is for the Minister of Health. For 20 years prior to the election, I had the privilege of working in the addiction and mental health fields at the Ontario Addiction Research Foundation, both in Toronto and in my home area of Brant-Haldimand-Norfolk. Minister, could you inform this House what our government has accomplished with respect to providing services in a more efficient and more effective way to alcohol- and drug-hurt people and to those with mental health problems?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Health): As you know, addiction and mental health services are two areas that we take very seriously as a government. In fact, we've had a review that was done by my parliamentary assistant, Dan Newman, and I am extremely pleased to say that we have been working very co-operatively with the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health here in the city of Toronto. We have provided them with $5 million so that they can make capital improvements to their facility.

In fact, I am very pleased to indicate that we have seen the merger of the Addiction Research Foundation, the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry, the Donwood Institute and the Queen Street Mental Health Centre, and they are now able to provide a continuum of care for people who have addiction and mental health problems.

Dr Paul Garfinkel, the president, indicates, "The merger has benefits. We can provide more accessible services, more research, more knowledge, and that means more service, programs and training to communities across Ontario, indeed the world."

Mr Barrett: Although the primary catchment area for treatment services is the greater Toronto area, could you explain what additional services the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health provides for people in other areas of Ontario?

Hon Mrs Witmer: As I indicated in my initial response, Dr Garfinkel has indicated that not only can they better provide services and programs and training and treatment to people in Toronto, they also have 12 community offices where they work with individuals who have mental and addiction needs. I'm very pleased to say that last month we provided $1.5 million to Network North for the redevelopment of the Pinegate men's detoxification centre as well.

We are also significantly expanding funding for mental health services and, as you know, we did allocate this year $60 million additional dollars to serve communities, families and those individuals who need our support in time of crisis .

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): My question is to the Minister of Health. This time the hospital restructuring commission - or, as I call it, the hospital destruction commission - of Ontario is deliberating behind closed doors and plotting the downfall of several hospitals in the Niagara region, including potentially the Hotel Dieu in St Catharines, the Douglas Memorial in Fort Erie, the Niagara-on-the-Lake hospital, the Port Colborne hospital and West Lincoln Memorial Hospital in Grimsby.

During the last election campaign Mike Harris said, "It is not my plan to close hospitals." In fact, he put "certainly" in front of that. Will you assure the people of St Catharines and the Niagara region that none of the hospitals in the Niagara Peninsula will close or be forced to merge and that none of the hospitals in the Niagara region presently existing will have to in any way reduce the services they provide to the communities in which they are found?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Health): First of all, what we are endeavouring to do as a government is to restructure health services. We need to make sure we provide a continuum of care. We need to make sure we focus on prevention, health promotion, primary care and acute care in the hospital setting. We continue to become aware of a need for more community service support and long-term-care services.

The restructuring process is taking place in order that we can meet the needs of our population today, a population that is not only growing but the number of people in it who are older; the proportion of our population is increasing. The Health Services Restructuring Commission has gone to communities, and yes, I understand they're presently reviewing your community. They are an arm's-length commission and we will need to await the response.

Mr Bradley: It's interesting to hear they're arm's length, because the member for Erie-Lincoln keeps telling everybody in the Niagara region that he's speaking to you about these hospitals and going to go past the restructuring commission.

As a result of your plan, which has been announced by your ministry, to cut over $40 million in operating funds for hospitals in the Niagara region, the services that can be provided to the hospitals, both the medical service and the ancillary non-medical service, have been significantly reduced. The hospitals in the Niagara region, as in many other areas of the province, are running huge deficits and are going into debt as a result of the cut of funding on your part.

We have in the Niagara Peninsula the oldest population per capita - that is, people 55 years and older - in all of Canada at this time. Dr David Foot, author of Boom, Bust and Echo, when he came to Brock University was asked if he had any advice for Mike Harris. Looking at the demographics of the Niagara Peninsula, what would it be? His answer was, "Don't close hospitals."

Minister, will you assure the House today that you will have all the services that the people of the Niagara Peninsula require in the hospitals of the Niagara Peninsula and that all of them will remain -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you. Minister.

Hon Mrs Witmer: Yes, I certainly am aware of the huge number of seniors in your community. I had the opportunity of visiting that part of our province with my parliamentary assistant, Tim Hudak. I met many of the seniors in your community. I just want to assure you that we recognize the needs of the St Catharines community. That's why, if we take a look at the number of long-term-care beds that are going to be built, we see that there are 646 additional long-term-care beds and there are 542 beds that are going to be upgraded.

There is every indication that the government recognizes this is an area with many seniors. We are responding to the needs of those seniors by providing that additional funding in community care services and long-term-care beds.

HYDRO RATES

Ms Shelley Martel (Sudbury East): I have a question for the Minister of Northern Development and Mines. Bill 35, the Energy Competition Act, will soon be passed by your government. One of the many problems with the bill is that it puts rural and northern hydro customers at risk. Right now, rural rate assistance helps to lower hydro rates for a number of rural customers. That can be worth several hundreds of dollars a year to a northern or rural family.

Bill 35 doesn't even come close to guaranteeing that rural and northern hydro consumers are going to continue to receive their rate assistance. The NDP moved an amendment at committee to guarantee this and your Conservative colleagues voted against it. Minister, I want to know, where were you when it came to protecting northern and rural consumers? Why did your colleagues vote against this amendment?

Hon Chris Hodgson (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet, Minister of Northern Development and Mines): I know the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology wants to answer this.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): I appreciate the question from the honourable member and want to once again give assurance to the honourable member, as we have to all the rural and remote areas of the province, that the money we're spending on rural rate assistance in the current system will continue in the competitive market. That's a commitment the government has made, and the government lives up to all its commitments and promises. It is in the legislation.

PETITIONS

MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas proper mental health care is essential to all Ontarians; and

"Whereas mental health care is severely underfunded in northwestern Ontario; and

"Whereas the Health Services Restructuring Commission has called for the closure of the Lakehead Psychiatric Hospital with no replacement services in its place; and

"Whereas appropriate community mental health treatment is so lacking in northwestern Ontario that those who need treatment, support and rehabilitation are incarcerated in district jails; and

"Whereas the Ministry of Health has not delivered on its commitment to set up the Northwestern Ontario Mental Health Agency over one year after it promised to do so; and

"Whereas there is a dramatic shortage of psychiatrists in northwestern Ontario to the point where the doctors are severely overworked; and

"Whereas the Ministry of Health promised a 12-bed adolescent treatment centre and has failed to deliver on that promise;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to commit those funds necessary to provide full and proper mental health care to those in need in northwestern Ontario and call on the Minister of Health to cancel the closure of the Lakehead Psychiatric Hospital."

I'm very pleased to sign my name to that petition.

HEALTH CARE

Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): I have a petition addressed to the Harris government of Ontario.

"Whereas your government insists that Ontarians would prefer tax cuts to quality health care; and

"Whereas the waiting list for urgently needed medical procedures rapidly lengthens; and

"Whereas more and more medical procedures are no longer covered by provincial funding;

"We, the undersigned, do hereby petition the Ontario government to give us back our health care system immediately by increasing funding and restoring coverages which your government has cut."

That's signed by Alan Taylor of St Catharines, Ron Carruthers of St Catharines, Ron Martin of Thorold and many, many others.

PROPERTY TAXATION

Mr Trevor Pettit (Hamilton Mountain): I have a petition signed by roughly 100 members of my community. It reads as follows:

"Whereas the regional municipality of Hamilton-Wentworth has imposed property taxes in excess of what is considered reasonable by the electorate;

"Whereas the electorate considers that the out-of-control taxation is a result of fiscal mismanagement and unnecessary duplication of government services by the regional municipality of Hamilton-Wentworth;

"We, the undersigned, do petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to appoint, through the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the Honourable Al Leach, a commission of inquiry as set out in

section 139 of the regional municipal act of 1994."

I affix my signature.

SCHOOL CLOSURES

Mr Mario Sergio (Yorkview): I have another petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, which I'd like to read.

"Whereas due to the Harris funding cuts to education the Toronto Catholic District School Board is being forced to consider the closing of 29 Catholic elementary schools in the city of Toronto before next September; and

"Whereas the parents of the students of St Gaspar School do not want the school closed because it is operating at full capacity, and fear the further chaos and crisis the Harris government is imposing on the education of their children; and

"Whereas there is apprehension and turmoil in the community that due to government rules to determine school capacity, hundreds of students will have to find a new school next September;

"Now, therefore, we, the undersigned citizens of Ontario, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"We call upon the Minister of Education, who has the primary responsibility for providing a quality education for each and every student in Ontario, to:

"1. Listen to the views being expressed by the teachers and parents of St Gaspar School students who are concerned about the implications and disruptive effects the school closure would have on their children;

"2. Recognize the fundamental importance of our local schools to our neighbourhood community;

"3. Live up to its commitment to provide adequate funding for the important and essential components of a good education and not allow the closing of St Gaspar School because it is operating at full capacity."

I concur with the petitioners and affix my signature to it.

PROPERTY TAXATION

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): "Petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Harris government's `downloading' to municipal taxpayers is directly responsible for the $36.3-million shortfall to the region of Hamilton-Wentworth; and

"Whereas the Harris government `downloading' is directly responsible for creating a property tax crisis in our region; and

"Whereas the Harris government, while boasting about its 30% tax cut which benefits mainly the wealthy, is making hard-working families, seniors, homeowners and businesses pay the price with outrageous property tax hikes and user fees for services; and

"Whereas city and regional councillors are being unfairly blamed and forced to explain these huge tax hikes, Hamiltonians know that what's really going on is that they are being forced to pay huge property tax increases to fund Harris's 30% tax giveaway to the rich; and

"Whereas homeowners, including seniors and low-income families, are facing huge property tax increases ranging from several hundred to thousands of dollars; and

"Whereas the Harris government `downloading' has led to huge property tax increases for business that will force many small and medium-sized businesses in Hamilton-Wentworth to close or leave the community, putting people out of work; and

"Whereas Hamilton-Wentworth region is proposing that the Harris government share in the costs of an expanded rebate program, worth about $3 million region-wide;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, demand that the Harris government immediately eliminate the $38-million downloading shortfall that is devastating and angering homeowners as well as killing businesses in Hamilton-Wentworth."

I continue to support Hamiltonians by signing this petition.

BEAR HUNTING

Mrs Barbara Fisher (Bruce): As per the rules of the House, a minister may not present a petition, so I am pleased to provide on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs a petition on behalf of his constituents.

"Whereas bears are hunted in the spring after they have come out of hibernation; and

"Whereas female bears are killed in the spring, some with cubs; and

"Whereas 100% of the cubs orphaned in the spring will die; and

"Whereas most of the bears killed by non-resident hunters are hunted over bait; and

"Whereas bears are the only big-game animals that are hunted in the spring; and

"Whereas there are only six states in the United States which still allow a spring hunt;

"We, the undersigned, petition the provincial Parliament to prohibit the hunting of bears in the spring."

PROSTATE CANCER

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a petition which reads as follows:

"Whereas prostate cancer is the fourth-leading cause of fatal cancer in Ontario;

"Whereas prostate cancer is the second-leading cause of fatal cancer for males;

"Whereas early detection is one of the best tools for being victorious in our battle against cancer; and

"Whereas the early detection blood test known as PSA, which is prostate-specific antigen, is one of the most effective tests at diagnosing early prostate cancer;

"Therefore

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature to encourage the Minister of Health to have this test added to the list of services covered by OHIP and that this be done immediately in order for us to save lives and to beat prostate cancer."

I affix my signature to this petition as I'm in complete agreement with its contents.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): I have a petition regarding the health care system in Hamilton.

"Whereas the Harris funding cutbacks are having a devastating impact on hospitals and patient care across Ontario, and have resulted in an anticipated $38-million deficit at the Hamilton Health Sciences Corp hospitals; and

"Whereas the Hamilton Health Sciences Corp hospitals will receive $4 million less in revenue from the Ministry of Health and other sources; and

"Whereas the Mike Harris funding cuts are causing a crisis in hospital care in Hamilton-Wentworth, with hospitals facing huge deficits, cuts to patient care and bed closings; and

"Whereas Scott Rowand, president of the Hamilton Health Sciences Corp hospitals, spoke out recently in the Hamilton Spectator saying, `For the first time in my career, I don't know how to fix this problem other than an awful lot of closures of programs and services needed by the community'; and

"Whereas Mr Rowand went on to say: `We need more cash in the system and we need it now. And that is cash to deal with the issues that we are dealing with today. Don't ask us to do anything more because people in the system are at their limit.'

"Therefore we, the undersigned, demand that the Harris government stop underfunding Ontario's hospitals to fund tax cuts for the wealthy and act immediately to restore funding to the Hamilton Health Sciences Corp hospitals so they can continue providing quality health care services to the people of Hamilton-Wentworth."

I support my local constituents by signing this.

HERITAGE CONSERVATION

Mr W. Leo Jordan (Lanark-Renfrew): To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas heritage is vitally important to the social and economic health of Ontario communities and Ontario residents; and

"Whereas community museums, galleries and heritage organizations work hard to protect, promote, manage and develop our provincial heritage resources; and

"Whereas the provincial government has a responsibility to the people of Ontario to promote the value of heritage and heritage conservation; and

"Whereas the Mike Harris government has abdicated their responsibility for heritage by cutting support to community museums, galleries and heritage organizations; and

"Whereas the Mike Harris government has not implemented a new heritage act that would give communities the ability to better protect heritage sites;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to provide stronger support to Ontario's heritage institutions and organizations and to work with the people of Ontario to establish a new heritage act."

DENTAL CARE

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and The Islands): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas a new

schedule of dental services for children and people with disabilities was introduced by the government under the Ontario Works Act and the Ontario Disability Support Program Act; and

"Whereas the new

schedule fails to meet the special needs of children and people with disabilities, reduces services, places barriers to accessing care and creates an environment for various different dental programs across Ontario; and

"Whereas the move away from an emphasis on prevention under the new dental

schedule brings significant health risks for children and people with disabilities who are often least able to practise good oral hygiene; and

"Whereas the new dental

schedule interferes with the patients' rights to consent to treatment by requiring administrators, and not patients, to authorize any dental treatment; and

"Whereas there is no method for the patient to appeal a decision by a plan administrator to deny dental treatment; and

"Whereas pre-authorizations, called predeterminations in the new plan, will require that a higher level of confidential patient health information be disclosed to dental plan administrators; and

"Whereas the Ontario government has caused confusion among patients by introducing the plan without adequate consultation and has not included any affected patient groups in consultations after releasing the new dental plan;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly as follows:

"Delay full implementation of the new dental plan until the requirement for predeterminations is removed, patient confidentiality is protected, the plan emphasizes prevention in oral health care, and the government consults directly with affected patients to ensure the new plan will meet the special needs of children and people with disabilities."

It's been signed by approximately 20 individuals and I attach my signature as well.

PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITALS

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): I have thousands more signatures in support of saving the Hamilton Psychiatric Hospital. These signatures are forwarded to me by Marjorie Martin, president of OPSEU, Local 203, signed by people who work at the hospital, area residents and in particular, family members of people who use the facilities at Hamilton Psychiatric Hospital.

"To the Honourable Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned citizens of Hamilton and the surrounding communities, beg leave to petition the government of Ontario as follows:

"Whereas the Health Services Restructuring Commission has announced the closure of Hamilton Psychiatric Hospital; and

"Whereas the government of Ontario, through the Health Services Restructuring Commission, is divesting its responsibility for mental health care without hearing from the community first; and

"Whereas community-based mental health care providers will bear the brunt of this ill-fated decision by being forced to meet what is sure to be an increased demand for their services; and

"Whereas the government of Ontario is not adequately monitoring community-based mental health services for their effectiveness, efficiency or whether they are even delivering the agreed-upon programs in the first place, according to the 1997 annual report of the Provincial Auditor; and

"Whereas the community pays the price for cuts to mental health care;

"We, the citizens of Hamilton and area, who care about quality, accessible and publicly accountable mental health care for all Ontarians petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to immediately set aside all recommendations to divest and/or close Hamilton Psychiatric Hospital and the programs and services it provides; and

"Further, to call for full hearings to seek community solutions to community issues and to democratically decide the future of mental health care for the citizens of Hamilton and area."

I add my name to that of these petitioners.

ABORTION

Mr Bob Wood (London South): I have a petition signed by 166 people.

"Whereas the Ontario health system is overburdened and unnecessary spending must be cut; and

"Whereas pregnancy is not a disease, injury or illness and abortions are not therapeutic procedures; and

"Whereas the vast majority of abortions are done for reasons of convenience or finance; and

"Whereas the province has the exclusive authority to determine what services will be insured; and

"Whereas the Canada Health Act does not require funding for elective procedures; and

"Whereas there is mounting evidence that abortion is in fact hazardous to women's health; and

"Whereas Ontario taxpayers funded over 45,000 abortions in 1993 at an estimated cost of $25 million;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to cease from providing any taxpayers' dollars for the performance of abortions."

ORDERS OF THE DAY

HIGHWAY 407 ACT, 1998 / LOI DE 1998 SUR L'AUTOROUTE 407

Mr Sampson moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 70,

An Act to engage the private sector in improving transportation infrastructure, reducing traffic congestion, creating jobs and stimulating economic activity through the sale of Highway 407 / Loi visant à intéresser le secteur privé à améliorer l'infrastructure des transports, réduire la circulation engorgée, créer des emplois et stimuler l'activité économique par la vente de l'autoroute 407.

Hon Rob Sampson (Minister without Portfolio [Privatization]): Before I start with today's debate and my comments, I'd like to indicate to the House that I'll be sharing my time with the member for Quinte, the member for Durham East and the member for Durham-York.

Perhaps, before we get too far down the debate here, it might be helpful for those watching today, for some of the individuals who are watching in the Legislature today, and maybe for some of the members as well, to give a little bit of a history of Highway 407 so we understand what exactly it is that we're contemplating doing here and what this particular road infrastructure has been designed to do.

The background of 407 is actually quite interesting. One might have thought it's a highway infrastructure that was designed and implemented in the early 1990s, but in fact the history of 407 goes back to 1973 when it was part of the planning of what's called the parkway belt planning area. The intention at that time was to create a parkway belt that would be the outside perimeter effectively of the GTA.

It was the insight of a Conservative government that originated the concept of the parkway belt, but it was interesting enough that subsequent governments continued to develop that idea to the state it is now, a highway that still doesn't surround the GTA, but goes through, one might say, the north, the east and the western part of the GTA; that is to say, development has actually grown past that particular parkway belt.

Interestingly enough, it's that additional development that has created a need for a highway such as 407, not only to provide some stimulus and economic growth for that particular area but to help with the traffic flows that have been created as a result of the tremendous population growth in the GTA, and certainly in the Hamilton and Halton areas. Highway 407 was designed and originally planned to help ease some of that congestion.

The congestion we're talking about - and I would use the drawing that I have here on my desk, Speaker, but I know that you would frown upon my using a prop, so I'm going to try to describe what we have here - that 407 is trying to relieve is the severe traffic problems that highway passengers, whether they be private cars or commercial vehicles, see on Highway 401 as it stretches across the city of Toronto.

Highway 403, which is a relatively new infrastructure, part of the parkway belt plan, by the way, but one of the first roads to be built in accordance with that plan development - 403 congestion is quite severe. The population has grown around it.

Then there is the QEW congestion, and many of the people in this particular area and certainly the members from Hamilton and the Halton area will be able to attest that that particular artery is indeed a very busy highway. There's a tremendous need in this

section of the province for a highway to provide congestion relief to the existing 400 series highways: QEW, 401 and 403.

If you think about the way Ontario has developed in this area - and I know the member from the north would agree - there's a tremendous need here to provide some flow-through traffic as commercial vehicles follow the north-south route of trade that has developed between Ontario and some of the northern states, the connection point of course being down in the Niagara area. Traffic, commercial traffic primarily, would have to find a way to feed its way through the Hamilton, the Halton and the GTA areas so that they could feed the consumers to the eastern part of the province.

There's a tremendous need for a commercial congestion relief highway. That's what gave birth to Highway 407. To give credit where credit should be due, and I'm quite prepared to do so, it was actually the NDP government that took the initiative to take the concept of a highway that would relieve congestion in certain parts of other highways and turn that into a reality. I see the member nodding; he was involved very closely on this particular highway. The interesting part about the NDP's involvement in this plan is that they chose to implement only the middle portion of the highway.

The western portions that would have connected to 403 and the QEW were not part of the original plan. Likewise, the design they started to work on initially as phase 1, if you will, ended right in the middle of a small city -

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): The members for Scarborough East and Lake Nipigon.

Hon Mr Sampson: I know that the member for Lake Nipigon is quite interested in this. I'm sure he'll respond shortly.

I say to the member for Lake Nipigon, interesting first step. The problem was that there was no execution plan, even in their first step initiative, to build the eastern and western extensions. A highway that was originally conceived to relieve congestion didn't have, even as its first phase or its phase 1 development, a plan to develop the highway to its east and west extensions. That is what is driving our plan to find a private sector partner to help us complete the project.

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel): No beginning, no end.

Hon Mr Sampson: Yes, there was no beginning and no end as my colleague to the left has said. We will provide the beginning and the end so that indeed the highway will be completed and residents on the west side of the current highway and on the east side of the current highway will have the chance to use this facility. It will finally provide relief to the heavily travelled roads of 401, QEW and the 403.

I know some of my colleagues who will be speaking after me will want to speak to this and inform the House on this, but I think it's important to understand that while the highway under the NDP regime was built by the private sector, the majority of the costs and risks associated with building a highway - and there are many risks associated with building a highway, especially one that is intended to be a toll highway - stayed in the hands of the public sector.

While one might have trumpeted this as a true public-private partnership, and indeed the previous government did so in the many brochures they put out, it's quite clear if you look at the design of the relationship with the builder at that time, the fact is that it was not implemented as a true public-private partnership. Why? It's difficult to answer that question. I'm sure the New Democratic Party, when they stand up to speak to this particular bill, will be quite helpful in informing us on that.

The fact of the matter is that the public sector, the taxpayers of this province, absorbed, for all intents and purposes, all of the risk associated with the design, the construction and the effectiveness not only of the road itself but of this rather innovative and to date quite acceptable and effective tolling technology that has been put on the road.

Our challenge is to get the east and west components completed and relieve the taxpayers of this tremendous debt burden they've absorbed as a result of an attempt by the previous government to structure this public-private partnership properly, yet failing to do so. We think it rather strange that one would ask motorists, whether they be commercial vehicles or private vehicles, to absorb the cost of travelling on the highway by paying the toll and yet at the same time financing that very same road they're driving on through their tax dollars. That's absolutely ridiculous and it's not an effective use of taxpayers' money.

Our plan would be to engage the private sector, not only to complete the east and west ends, which the previous government had no plan to do, but to do so with no additional taxpayers' money being involved and, on top of that, returning to the taxpayer the dollars they had invested in this highway as it currently is designed.

When one speaks to many of the municipalities and business owners on either end of the highway or through the GTA, they will quite quickly say to you that there is a tremendous need to provide the local businesses and residents in the Toronto area, in the Hamilton area, in the Halton area and in the areas to the east of the city with an alternative route - and they're quite agreeable to having a toll highway - to the existing infrastructure. They need that because it's necessary to support the economic development that is happening in this province.

I know, Speaker, you've listened quite carefully as the government has been explaining, day over day over day, how this province has turned around, and the economy is booming and this province is again the leader in economic activity in this country and, I would say, in North America.

Interestingly enough, as we went through our consultation phase on what to do with Highway 407, many people came to me and said: "Wait a minute, what do you mean you want to sell this highway? We don't own it. Doesn't the private sector already own this highway? Why are you talking about taxpayers' dollars being involved?" Again, as I said earlier, the facts are that while the previous government wanted to create an environment where the private sector was the owner of the highway and wanted to create the environment where the taxpayer was not funding the highway, they couldn't, and didn't, deliver on that structure.

We intend to deliver on that structure. We intend to go to the private sector through an open bidding process and ask them to commit to build the east and west extensions, to take over the operation of the existing highway, to be responsible for the maintenance of the whole stretch of highway, to maintain it as a free and open highway so that anybody can have access to it and to relieve the taxpayer of the burden the taxpayer is currently bearing for the financing of the whole structure.

The bill we're debating here today will establish the mechanics for that particular arrangement, the mechanics for the collection and enforcement of tolls. It will set out provisions that relate to the management of the highway, who is responsible for managing what component of the highway, who is responsible for building the extra lanes that will be needed as the population continues to grow, who is responsible for cleaning the highway, and to what standards the highway will be maintained.

The bill will address these particular issues and will stipulate very clearly that safety is number one. We are quite concerned with the safety of the roads in this province and we will continue to insist that this road, under private ownership, will be maintained and built to the same safety standards as other 400-series highways are built and maintained to in this province.

I want to give some time for my colleagues to speak, but I think it's important for individuals watching today in the House to understand that we have established a process that will allow us to move ahead on this transaction. That process will be a fair and open process. We intend to solicit bids through an initial expression of interest arrangement. Once that has allowed us to identify the original list of interested parties, we will go through a process where they will be asked to submit formal bids and final bids.

We have engaged outside consultants, both legal and financial, to help us with this process. Contacts will be made through the secretariat that reports to me. They will manage the relationship with the potential investors.

I want to assure Ontarians that what we're looking for here is fair value for this highway. We're looking for a repayment of our tax dollars that have been invested in this highway. We're looking for a relationship, an arrangement, a partnering with a private sector individual or corporation that will share the risks in the management and construction of this highway. We do not intend to duplicate what the previous government did in the construction of the central portion. That is not an acceptable model to us. It wasn't an acceptable model to the auditor; it's not an acceptable model to us either.

We think the arrangement with the private sector needs to clearly establish who is responsible for what, who will be dealing with what particular issues on the highway, and that's the type of arrangement we intend to seek.

It's also important for the people listening and watching today, and for the members of the assembly, to understand that the concept of partnership we intend to pursue will still involve this government, this province, owning the land and the parkway, owning the land on which the highway is constructed. What we're really looking at, and what this bill allows us to proceed with and establishes the parameters for, is effectively the leasing of the highway that sits upon the land the government will continue to own.

What we're really talking about here is not necessarily the sale of the highway, as individuals watching us today might easily be led to understand, but effectively a leasing of the business of the running of the highway, the construction of the very important remaining sections of the highway, so that the province will still have ownership of the land, will still, as the owner of the land, have control over the future development of that land, whether that development be subsequent interchanges, a service station or some other facility that passengers on the highway might want, additional lanes, or as was contemplated in the original design some 20 years ago, perhaps a railway or a transit way that would be an alternative use to the private passenger vehicle.

Because we will still be the owners of the property, we will still have control over how that land is utilized.

Our goal of course is to maximize value for the province, to relieve the taxpayers of the risks they've been forced to bear by the previous government and will not want to bear, and shouldn't bear, I would argue, in future development of the highway, and to complete this highway on its eastern and western extensions as soon as possible. In fact, we will be looking for bidders to establish parameters that will allow them, should they be successful bidders, to begin the construction of the western portion in the spring of next year.

That will be a key requirement for us because it's important that we get these facilities built. It is important that we get the western extension built. It's important because it's essential for the people who live in that area, and I would argue it's also essential for the continued successful operation of the remaining part of the highway.

On the east end, we will also be looking for commitments from the private sector of when extensions can be built right through to Highway 115, inclusive of any necessary connections to the 401 in the east end of the artery. That's important for us too, again for the same reasons, because the people in that area, the growth in that area demand it and need it and because it's necessary for the successful completion of the highway - two very important requirements.

I should say that we are also talking about a tremendous infrastructure project here that not only will create and continue to provide for the economic development of Ontario and perhaps this area of Ontario, but will allow for the creation of 6,000 new jobs in this province. It's important for us to understand that when we talk about those 6,000 jobs, there are other related jobs as a result of those people having jobs.

It goes to show that if you can partner with the private sector and do it properly and effectively and have the right risk-sharing arrangements with the private sector, you can do that and create jobs at the same time without one dollar of taxpayers' money being invested.

To close and pass on to other members who want to speak, I think it's crucial that we understand that partnering with the private sector through associations and transactions like this creates jobs. They help improve the economic performance of this province. They do so without a burden on the taxpayer.

There is a role for government to play. Yes, there's a role for government to play and, as you read this bill, you will see that we've designed a role for government to play. There are responsibilities of government, but there are also responsibilities of the private sector. Properly structured, properly crafted, properly designed and properly monitored, together with the private sector we can create jobs and continue the tremendous development that has happened in this province over the last while.

Mr E.J. Douglas Rollins (Quinte): It gives me a great deal of pleasure today to rise and support Bill 70,

An Act to engage the private sector in improving transportation infrastructure, reducing traffic congestion, creating jobs and stimulating economic activity through the sale of Highway 407.

I also want to congratulate the minister on the work he's put into it. I wholeheartedly agree with the concept that we need to get rid of this piece of property to save the taxpayers of Ontario some taxpayers' dollars, if we can improve it and put it in the private sector making sure that the private sector can go on and still make a very viable operation.

I want to take you back a little bit in history about Highway 401. I was a young lad going off to school when they opened the bypass around Toronto. The 401 in 1958 looked a lot different than it does today. The only place to get off 401 that had lights in 1958 was at Yonge Street. It was the only one that had lights on it. When you drove by the corner of Yonge and the 401 there were farm fields out to the north, horses and cattle pastured in them, and now that whole artery has developed into a horrendous highway that's packed most of the time.

I can tell you, having driven on the 407 on a few occasions, that even though we've just opened it and it hasn't been opened a long time, on October 2 I had the pleasure of being on the 407 and we came to stop-and-go traffic from close to Yonge Street to the west side of the 400. This exemplifies the exact need we have to develop the kind of infrastructure so that we can move trade and make sure our vehicles and transportation can move freely from east to west.

As we listened to the House in Ottawa the other day, the surplus in Canada was the biggest surplus we've had for the last month. I want to remind members that much of that surplus trade travels up and down the 401. It travels across our province from east to west. I think the development of the 407 will relieve some of the pressure on the 401 so we can make that trek in from the far east under a little bit better conditions.

My colleagues from Hamilton and Halton and that area continually tell us about the delay and the length of time it takes them to come into Toronto with the congestion they have. The extension of the 407, connecting with the 403 and on down through to the Hamilton area, will relieve a lot of that pressure. When some of our opposition members get here with less frustration, they'll probably be a lot more congenial - after they buggered up the highway and got it started.

The big thing is the construction of that highway that we as a government are offering to put up for public sale. We're not offering to sell the ground under the highway; we're offering to sell the infrastructure, the ability for that company or consortium to take those dollars, invest in the highway, collect the tolls there and make sure the roads are open for all travellers, whether they be trucks, cars or whatever comes in the future, so we can use that highway to alleviate some of the pressures we have.

As we come into the city from the east, on more than one occasion we've had to come to a grinding halt coming into the Oshawa area because the highway is congested and it becomes stop-and-go traffic. It's very frustrating for the people; it's very hard on the economy to lose those hours of time on the highways.

How many dollars do we have invested in the 407 at the present time? As of March 31, the taxpayers of Ontario have somewhere around $104 billion. If we have that $104 billion invested in capital and if we can take that back from the private sector, sell it and put those dollars back in, we'll make one more promise in the Common Sense Revolution when we sell that asset. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, we can pay down that debt we've inherited.

That's very important, not only to our generation and the commitment we made in the Common Sense Revolution but to the commitment we as a government have made to the people of Ontario. As long as we have that kind of commitment and keep on our goal, we'll do a better job.

Another thing the minister mentioned was the process put into place to sell this piece of property, the services we can sell. We have to make sure Bill 70 lays out very clearly what we're selling, what the rules of the game are going to be and where we fit into it.

Regarding the acquisition of most of the land to the west, from the extension of where it ends now at the 401, where it goes on down to the Hamilton area, much of that land is already in the process of being developed, with ownership being turned over, so we can go ahead and develop it.

In the east - I'm very interested in the east because we travel from there all the time and so do a lot of our colleagues. I know one of the other speakers, when that east extension goes on to the 401 it goes through nearly his entire riding, right from one end to the other. But we have to go through the process to make sure the 407 gets connected to the 401 so it gives an alternative traffic route for people with tractor-trailers, cars, holiday weekends and also, probably a more important thing, that trade which we have to have travel up and down the 401.

The minister mentioned the 6,000 jobs it has created. We have to be able to continue to develop our province so we can make sure we have those kinds of jobs for our children and our grandchildren, handing those jobs to them without having the tax burden as far as putting on to them the cost of the operation.

Over the next few days of debate and everything that will be put in on Bill 70, the designation of the 407 - it's a nice thing to say you're going to sell a whole highway; all we're going to sell is the ability for that company to take over that highway, to run it, keep it up, with the controls that we want to have on it, and make sure it keeps the safety standards that are required to make sure people are running on a safe and required highway.

There are many parts of the bill in here that we will continue to discuss as the days go by, but one thing is to make sure that the company that collects the toll takes the same position that we as a government do, that we can make sure the person who uses that highway pays the bill; and if at the end of some 90 days somebody feels they have not collected that toll, that company we turn it over to would be given the appropriate procedures so they can make sure of those collections.

It's a delight for me, as a person from the east, to stand up and support the minister, the way he has put together this bill to make sure that Ontario is well represented, that we as taxpayers have guarantees we're not going to lose on this, that we're going to win on it. If we can entice the private sector - and they tell us there are a number of people out there who are interested in bidding on this - then we can pay down the debt we inherited from previous governments and make sure we have a safe, viable operation so trade and consumers can move freely back and forth, safe, without accidents, the way we can move in and out of our area.

The Toronto airport is certainly a fascinating magnet that draws a lot of traffic in and out of it, and for us in the east who have to travel up and down that road with only one way to go, it certainly relieves a lot of pressure to have the opportunity to travel on the 407.

I'll share my time now with the rest of my colleagues. It's my pleasure to pass on to them. Thank you very much for my opportunity to comment.

Mrs Julia Munro (Durham-York): It certainly gives me great pleasure to rise in support of and speak on the bill on privatization of Highway 407.

As you know, our government was elected with a mandate to make government work better for the people it serves. So far in our mandate we have accomplished long-overdue changes never attempted by previous governments. We have learned that we make better decisions when we consider the advice of people outside government and that everyone benefits from an open process, when our plans and proposals are made public and made clear.

As the Premier stated while in Ottawa this past weekend, we are not government; we're the people who came to fix government. This is certainly why I came to Queen's Park and why I support the process put in place to privatize the 407.

The introduction of Minister Sampson's bill, entitled

An Act to engage the private sector in improving transportation infrastructure, reducing traffic congestion, creating jobs and stimulating economic activity through the sale of Highway 407, says it all.

I think it's safe to say we've all been stuck in traffic and we wished we belonged to the Star Trek generation of "Beam me up, Scotty." Sitting in traffic is not fun for anyone, which is why we need to build toll highways such as the 407. People need choices.

Just like various other aspects of government, public ownership of various kinds of businesses and services has been built up over the decades. Quite often there were good reasons for government to get involved. However, in many cases those reasons no longer exist, because things change. It becomes very clear that the private sector needs to be involved.

Over and over again it can be demonstrated that the private sector can provide efficient delivery of service. We need only look at other provinces and internationally to see where those experiments are working very successfully for both the businesses and the taxpayer as well. At the same time, the province has a responsibility to set out in this legislation the guidelines to ensure that a prospective purchaser must meet these requirements, must meet the requirements of provincial standards and guarantees of safety and policing, which must remain in place.

But as we look at those changes, we recognize that the needs and priorities of Ontarians change too. We are prepared for these changes. That is why we are constantly looking at where, why and how we are investing taxpayers' dollars. As Minister Sampson stated:

"The taxpayers have financed the construction of the 407. They own it. On top of that, the taxpayers are being asked to pay tolls.

"To me, that's ridiculous. What we need to do is make sure that those who want to pay the tolls don't also have to finance it through their tax dollars. That's why we're proceeding with the sale process."

Everyone counts and everyone has the right to make choices. People choose to travel the 407 because they know it saves time.

As a bit of background, the highway was originally conceived as a public-private partnership project by the NDP government in the early 1990s which originally called for the highway to revert to provincial ownership within 30 years. The Office of Privatization began its review of Highway 407 in June 1997. Using the Ontario privatization review framework, the review assessed a range of options that would involve the private sector in financing, building and operating the Highway 407 westerly and easterly extensions and in financing Highway 407 central. As a result of the review, the government made the decision to sell the highway.

We also recognize the need to protect Ontario taxpayers, and as a condition of sale the purchaser will be required to build, finance and operate the two extensions and finance the central

section subject to certain conditions.

As part of the process, a call for expression of interest will be issued shortly in order to identify and communicate with potential bidders for the highway. Potential bidders will undergo a pre-qualification process to evaluate their financial and technical ability to undertake the project. The bidding process will be conducted in a fair, open and competitive manner.

There are those who ask, "Isn't the highway already privately owned?" This is a great misconception. While private consortia had the responsibility to design and build the highway, as well as managing its operation and maintenance, the ownership of the highway and the costs of financing the construction of the central

section rest with the province. It is also important to note that the province will continue to own the land on which the highway sits. The highway will remain an open-access tolled highway. That means that the owner of the highway will be required to allow any non-commercial vehicles to have access to the highway regardless of whether or not they have transponders. As I mentioned earlier, the OPP will continue to patrol the highway even under private sector ownership.

We all recognize the importance of job creation, and it is expected that more than 6,000 private sector construction-related jobs will be created in building the extension. I think it's important to see this in the bigger context in terms of the importance this infrastructure has with the province. Since September 1995, 408,000 net new jobs have been created in this province. This alone has enormous impact on our towns, our communities and on individual families.

The role of the provincial government, then, is to provide a framework within which this economic activity can take place and flourish. We have an obligation to ensure the infrastructure is there to support this economic growth. It is in that context that this major transportation artery will stimulate investment and activity in the 407 corridor, and this again can be expected to translate into further new jobs.

Highway 407 represents an important component of our provincial transportation network. Improvement to the network will also improve the provincial economy. The government will fulfill our election commitment contained in the Common Sense Revolution to apply the proceeds of the sale of Highway 407 to pay down the provincial debt. By reducing the debt, we will ultimately have more flexibility to fund our priority areas.

In short, I support privatization of the 407 because it will help to improve service and value to taxpayers and make government work better for those it serves.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham East): It's my privilege to comment on Bill 70,

An Act to engage the private sector in improving transportation infrastructure, reducing traffic congestion, creating jobs, and stimulating economic activity through the sale of Highway 407 - a very comprehensive title. I think the minister in his opening comments made it very clear that this isn't a new issue by a long shot. I have to recount for the members listening today that it's been an issue. I served on Durham region council and on the municipality of Clarington council for a number of years, and prior to that for sure.

I think the best way I've seen it defined or heard the remarks - this is not my own comment. We've all heard of the popular movie Field of Dreams. The famous line in that movie is, "If we build it, they will come." How that line applies to 407 is that without the infrastructure of the 407, the Durham region really has an economic bottleneck on Highway 401. If you look at the anchor of Oshawa and Burlington, Burlington to Oshawa needs good infrastructure, and certainly the 407 is that important infrastructure for the economy and for the jobs and for the people of my riding of Durham East.

It's important to put into more perspective the importance of the 407 and getting on with business. My comments aren't in any way rehearsed, but because I'm familiar with the project and very comfortable, in the time remaining I will try to inform the members here of how important it is to my riding.

My riding sees this as both an opportunity and a challenge, and in that challenge there are issues. I respect the environment, as I think most Canadians and most Ontario citizens and certainly the people in Durham do. My riding of Durham East is sort of from Regional Road 23, Lakeridge Road - you might see that sign on the 401 - all the way east to the border of Northumberland county and north of that. Part of my riding is north of Taunton Road. But that area is a very important environmental area. The Oak Ridges Moraine runs right through that whole area, and that's the issue here. It's very important that the routing of this highway have respect for the environment.

I'm going to be there. I'm on record, both when I was a councillor and here today, that I want the environmental assessment process to take precedence in the technologically preferred route for the highway. There it is; it's on the record. I respect the environment. I want the EA process to apply and the alignment shouldn't just be an economic decision; it's got to respect the environment.

But the other side of this field of dreams is an opportunity and a dilemma for my riding. The opportunity, of course, is the economic reality. Without that link we are not very competitive in this GTA global marketplace.

When I'm looking at the map here - just for the other members, there's the map of the technically preferred route - I'm looking to the west, our famous neighbour to the west, Mississauga, that seems to run everything in southern Ontario. I look at the infrastructure they have. They've got the Queen Elizabeth Way, they've got the 403, they've got the 407, they've got the 427, they've got the 400 and the 404 highways, all this major infrastructure. On top of that they've got a major airport. That is why Hazel McCallion is successful.

She has an endless stream of revenue all generated because of the important infrastructure in the area. It is also a well-run and well-represented area. The member for Mississauga South I believe is a very capable person and probably works very closely with Hazel.

If I look to the east, the poor neighbours to the east, we have bottlenecks. I drive to Queen's Park every day and I usually have to leave at about 6 in the morning to get here for an 8 o'clock meeting. If I don't leave by 6, I'm not here till 9. If I leave even later than that, it could be three hours of commuting. All of my constituents have the same concern. We need this link. We also need GO Transit, public transit developed a little more aggressively in the area. But to stay on topic, I'm just trying to illustrate the importance of this particular piece of infrastructure.

I've done a bit of homework on this. As I said, I've been involved in it for a while. It's important to state that this has been a challenge for not only Durham region but the seven or eight municipalities within it. They haven't been able to agree how to get the frigging thing out here. For the record, I'm going to go through a few of the resolutions. With the co-operation of some of the municipalities, I've got their official positions on this alignment issue.

I'm looking at a resolution passed by the town of Whitby in 1997, just to see how controversial this thing is in that area. They want it, absolutely. They want it tomorrow morning, but they can't agree on some of the other, routing issues.

"At a meeting held on December 15...the council of the corporation of the town of Whitby passed the following resolution in connection with the Lakeridge Road/ Highway 401 interchange."

This may seem boring to some of the people here, but that will be the first opportunity for the 407 to link with the 401 in the easterly portion of the highway. Whitby council and Durham region have been arguing to have an official position as to whether they were going to accept some link. Of course, without the link, the 407 became problematic. It ended in the middle of the field of dreams. Here's what they said in December 1997:

"That the Ministry of Transportation be requested to commit to the full construction of the Lakeridge Road/ Highway 401 interchange with the extension of Highway 407 into the region of Durham or as a priority project should the extension of Highway 407 into Durham be deferred.

"That the Ministry of Transportation be advised that the town of Whitby sees this as a priority project in order to,

"(

a) provide a continuous link between Highway 401 and the interim terminus of Highway 407 to benefit the function of Highway 407 and the traffic needs for the city of Toronto and the region of York and the region of Durham."

It goes on, but you see some of the controversy there. Technically, there's no sense building the highway until you've the link issue resolved. Yet on the other side, the region of Durham, and chairman Roger Anderson, has been arguing relentlessly to get this highway out there, but it's got to have some method of linking up to the 401. I might add, we have a similar problem at Markham Road where the terminus is right now. The cars have to bunch up somewhere to get down to the 401 or up to Highway 7. This may seem a little tedious for members because some of the technical arguments have been made by the previous members.

There is another resolution here, for the record, February 17, 1998, from the town of Whitby. I'll go through the

preamble:

"The council of the corporation of the town of Whitby at a meeting held on February 16, 1998, passed the following resolution in connection with the easterly extension of the 407 expressway."

I won't go through all the "whereases" but it has to deal with where traffic goes. For instance, in my riding there is a little community of Brooklin that would be just overwhelmed with traffic, and Winchester Road was the issue.

"Therefore,

be it resolved that the Ministry of Transportation be strongly urged to construct a bypass around the village of Brooklin utilizing the 407 alignment to Winchester Road in advance of any further easterly extension of Highway 407."

They kept putting in these encumbrances on not only the province but their own region, if you will.

There is also, from the town of Whitby, another concern and issue. This is from the current mayor of Whitby. I'm just going to read the last statement of a memo, dated January 1998, that he sent to the Honourable Tony Clement. I hope I'm not plagiarizing here, but I think it's important to put it on the record. The mayor is Marcel Brunelle and this is his position:

"It is Whitby's view that there are basic and fundamental deficiencies in the environmental assessment for the...Ajax/Whitby...freeway-to-freeway route study. As mayor I am of the opinion that the position being taken by the ministry demonstrates a bias to what is an incomplete environmental assessment report, which I am sure is not intended by your office."

I might say right now that the EA process has been approved to Brock Road, so that argument - the Ministry of the Environment has approved that clearance so they can make some connection at some point.

But I go on. I'm looking at an

article here by Mike Kowalski, who's a reporter in a local paper in the riding of the Minister of Labour, the Honourable Jim Flaherty, from Durham Centre. All members of council have commented on this, but I know Minister Flaherty has been very concerned about the two issues. Minister Flaherty is obviously very concerned. He's the person who dealt with the Lynde Marsh issue. He's also a minister who knows that a healthy economy and jobs are an important part of having a healthy environment.

So there's Whitby solved, and we're not halfway through the municipality. For the record, there's no possibility of a link of the 407, which is north of Oshawa, down to the 401. I