2004 Legislative Session: 5th Session, 37th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2004

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 26, Number 4

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Page

Introductions by Members

Introduction and First Reading of Bills

Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 69)

Hon. G. Collins

Property Transfer Tax Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 70)

Hon. G. Collins

Expropriation Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 67)

Hon. G. Plant

Land Title and Survey Authority Act (Bill 68)

Hon. G. Abbott

Statements (Standing Order 25 B )

Role of teachers

R. Masi

J. Kwan

Bike to work projects

P. Sahota

Oral Questions

Education funding

J. Kwan

Hon. T. Christensen

J. MacPhail

Hon. G. Campbell

B.C. Rail privatization process

E. Brenzinger

Hon. K. Falcon

Health care services in Kimberley

W. McMahon

Hon. C. Hansen

Tabling Documents

Guarantees and indemnities authorized and issued report, fiscal year ended March 31, 2004

Public service pension plan, British Columbia, annual report, 2003

College pension plan, British Columbia, annual report, 2003

Municipal pension plan, British Columbia, annual report, 2003

Teachers pension plan, British Columbia, annual report, 2003

Pension Corporation of British Columbia, annual report, 2003-04

Members of the Legislative Assembly pension plan, annual report, 2003

B.C. Investment Management Corporation, annual report, 2002-03

Second Reading of Bills

University Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 60)

Hon. S. Bond

Hon. R. Thorpe

Hon. B. Barisoff

Hon. G. Abbott

D. Jarvis

J. Bray

J. MacPhail

H. Bloy

K. Stewart

R. Masi

L. Mayencourt

Hon. S. Bond

Committee of the Whole House

Community Living Authority Act (Bill 45)

J. Kwan

Hon. S. Hagen

[ Page 11389 ]

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2004

The House met at 2:04 p.m.

Introductions by Members

R. Masi: It's my pleasure today to introduce a

number of people from the Delta Gateway Society, a community-based non-profit

organization helping people with autism for the last 27 years. With us today

from the Gateway Society are Kelly Reaburn, Johnny Van Tol, Candace Chittim,

Pete Fournier and Danny Perrault. Would the House please make them welcome.

[1405]

R. Hawes: It is my pleasure today to introduce 13 students

from Meadowridge School in Maple Ridge, which my colleague from Maple Ridge–Pitt

Meadows and I would argue is the finest independent school in the province.

They're here with their teacher, Mr. Parker, to see how the Legislature works

and do a tour of the premises. Could the House please make them welcome.

M. Hunter: In the gallery visiting the Legislature today

are two friends of mine from Nanaimo: Wally and Joan Worth. Would the House

please make them welcome.

W. McMahon: It's a pleasure today to introduce new caucus

legislative assistants to you. We have four new assistants here. They're Aman

Dodd, Derek Tryan, Kevin Dixon and Jeremy Walden. I know they're excited to be

here working, and we're excited to have them. I ask you all to join me in

extending them a warm welcome.

Introduction and

First Reading of Bills

FINANCE STATUTES

AMENDMENT ACT, 2004

Hon. G. Collins presented a message from Her Honour the

Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2004.

Hon. G. Collins: I move the bill be introduced and read a

first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. G. Collins: I'm pleased to introduce the Finance

Statutes Amendment Act, 2004, which amends the Ministry of Finance statutes,

most notably the Business Corporations Act. The act was brought into force on

March 29, 2004. The amendments respond to various issues that have come to light

since that date. Most of the amendments are purely housekeeping and either

correct errors or refine the application of provisions. However, there are a few

changes that are more substantive in nature and intend to further streamline the

corporate registry practices.

The bill also contains minor technical amendments to the Society

Act and Financial Institutions Act, arising out of recent amendments to those

statutes, in addition to a minor amendment to the Pension Benefits Standards Act

reflecting a recent change in accounting standards.

I move the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second

reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 69 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on

orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after

today.

PROPERTY TRANSFER TAX

AMENDMENT ACT, 2004

Hon. G. Collins presented a message from Her Honour

the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Property Transfer Tax Amendment Act,

Hon. G. Collins: I move the bill be introduced and read a

first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. G. Collins: This bill improves the certainty and

fairness of the Property Transfer Tax Act by changing how the tax applies to

pre-sold strata units. As proposed by government on June 22, 2004, in response

to communications we received from individuals — and particularly the member for

Vancouver-Burrard — the legislation is amended so that all purchasers of

pre-sold strata lots will know how much property transfer tax will be payable

when they register their purchase at the land titles office.

The amendment also ensures that first-time homebuyers of pre-sold

strata lots will know with certainty whether or not they will be eligible for

the first-time homebuyers exemption at the time they make the purchase.

I move that the bill be placed on orders of the day for second

reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 70 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on

orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after

today.

EXPROPRIATION AMENDMENT ACT, 2004

Hon. G. Plant presented a message from Her Honour the

Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Expropriation Amendment Act, 2004.

Hon. G. Plant: I move the bill be introduced and read a

first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. G. Plant: I'm pleased to introduce Bill 67, the

Expropriation Amendment Act. Bill 67 will provide the

[ Page 11390 ]

Supreme Court of British Columbia with jurisdiction over expropriation and

related matters. That jurisdiction is currently held by the Expropriation

Compensation Board. This bill will dissolve that board.

[1410]

The Expropriation Compensation Board has a relatively low caseload

and formal, often protracted proceedings. Its decisions are frequently appealed.

Moving the board's jurisdiction to the courts will avoid duplication and will

streamline Expropriation Act proceedings.

I want to point out that Bill 67 deals only with the jurisdiction

of the board. These amendments do not affect the substantive rights or remedies

of expropriating authorities such as provincial and local governments,

hospitals, school boards or landowners, or any other substantive aspect of

current expropriation law. There are transitional provisions that will ensure

that hearings that have already been set by the Expropriation Compensation Board

or which are in progress will not be affected by these changes.

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second

reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 67 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on

orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after

today.

LAND TITLE AND SURVEY AUTHORITY ACT

Hon. G. Abbott presented a message from Her Honour the

Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Land Title and Survey Authority Act.

Hon. G. Abbott: I move the bill be introduced and read for

a first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. G. Abbott: I'm pleased to introduce Bill 68 today. The

Land Title and Survey Authority Act is a new act designed to establish the land

title and survey authority as an independent, not-for-profit corporation

responsible for operating the province's land title and survey systems and

facilitating the execution of Crown grants.

This act is consistent with the government's new-era commitments

of operating more efficiently, supporting the economy and bringing more

certainty to land uses in the province. This act will establish the authority

for the purpose of assuming all of the functions of the land title branch,

including the operation of the three land title offices. The authority will also

assume responsibility for the majority of activities now carried out by the

surveyor general.

This government listened to the concerns of British Columbians

regarding the operation of land titles offices. We responded by establishing

this authority as an excellent way to deliver improved land title office and

survey services, including improved timeliness of land title and survey plan

registration activity. In so doing, we are enhancing services to private land

owners and investors.

The proposed legislation is modelled after other acts recently

passed to establish the Business Practices and Consumer Protection Authority,

the Safety Authority and the B.C. Ferry Authority. The legislation incorporates

necessary governance and accountability provisions to protect the public

interest.

Bill 68 is an important step in this government's commitment to

efficient, effective service delivery. I'm pleased to present this bill in the

House today, and I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for

second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 68 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on

orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after

today.

Statements

(Standing Order 25

b) ROLE OF TEACHERS

R. Masi: Today is World Teachers Day. World Teachers Day is

our chance to recognize, celebrate and appreciate all that teachers do.

I can remember the primary teacher who gave up many Saturday

afternoons to go shopping for those things that helped enrich the wonderful

studies teachers who face 80 papers to mark almost every Sunday night as well as

doing the lesson plans for the week.

I know of many athletic coaches who give up many weekends

motivating young people to fulfil their potential. I know of band teachers

giving early morning rehearsals and arranging road trip concerts to perhaps

discover another Diana Krall or Michael Bublé. I think of the grade 5 teacher,

with two or three special ed kids in her class, striving to deliver motivating

lessons to a difficult age group while keeping one step ahead of technological

changes.

I know of drama teachers who spend months working after school and

evenings preparing for the annual drama festival, perhaps to discover the next

Hollywood star. I think of the teachers in the trades and culinary arts who

inspire and mentor many young men and women to be a productive and vital

part in

our society.

[1415]

Let's remember, too, that most teachers have families and

households of their own to look after but still find in their hearts the time

and compassion to care for and motivate their students towards the goal of

becoming mature and competent adults. I ask: how many of us here can remember

and credit a teacher who has profoundly influenced our lives? I would like to

quote Henry Brooks Adams, who was an American historian and grandson of John

Quincy Adams. He said: "A

[ Page 11391 ]

teacher affects eternity. He can never tell where his influence stops."

J. Kwan: Today I and my colleague from Vancouver-Hastings

are also very proud to stand and celebrate World Teachers Day. It is a day for

all of us to recognize the teachers of B.C. and to let them know how much

they're valued and appreciated.

Teachers are the stewards of the education system in our society.

They're the people we entrust our children with every day, the people who help

so many of us get to where we are today and guide us through an often

challenging and perplexing time in our lives — high school.

Teachers at all levels in the system are the individuals who guide

our kids through tricky math problems, teach our children the history of this

country, coach their soccer teams, sponsor their clubs and chaperone their

dances. B.C.'s teachers are the hard-working and pivotal mentors of the youth of

this province. Their day-to-day efforts deserve our respect and our thanks.

Unfortunately, teachers of this province have not seen the respect

and appreciation they deserve from this government. Instead of working with

teachers in a collaborative and cooperative manner to meet the challenges of the

profession, the government has chosen conflict and confrontation. The government

stripped teachers of their right to have a self-governing profession. They were

okay with used car dealers governing their own, but not teachers. It took a year

of conflict and public pressure to give back to the teachers what the government

took away.

The government went as far as to erase a decision of the B.C.

Supreme Court to impose their will on B.C.'s educators, making their tough job

even tougher. The government forcefully removed critical protections for

students and teachers related to class size, services for special needs

students, and specialty services from counsellors, librarians and ESL teachers

from collective agreements. These are not the actions of a government that

respects, values and appreciates the teachers of B.C.

On this day, World Teachers Day, it is time that this House

acknowledges B.C.'s educators and all of the valuable work that they do for our

children and our society.

BIKE TO WORK PROJECTS

P. Sahota: The Bike to Work program started in Victoria,

and I'm proud to report that our government has embraced this idea as well. Last

month the Minister of Management Services announced that the province would be

helping the Bike to Work movement by going B.C.-wide. In addition to reducing

pollution, studies show that people who bike to work are healthier, happier and

more productive.

With funding of $24,000 from several ministries, Bike to Work

Victoria has created a 53-page planning manual and a one-day workshop for

communities that want to replicate the program. On September 22, I was in

Kelowna when Mayor Walter Gray announced that Kelowna will be the first out of

the gate, holding a workshop on October 30 as a prelude to their first-ever Bike

to Work Week next spring. I understand that Vancouver plans to do the same, and

I hope the city of Burnaby will also do the same. I understand that other cities

in Alberta and Ontario are also hoping to replicate this program.

Here in the capital, though, with seed funding from the

government, the capital regional district's traffic commission has spearheaded

more than two dozen projects, which are making our roads safer. Three of those

projects, including the structure of the commission itself, were showcased at

the biennial world conference on safety and injury prevention in Vienna,

Austria.

One of the commission's projects is a free audio CD for seniors

who want to learn how to fine-tune their driving techniques. Now the Ministry of

Public Safety is teaming up with ICBC to make that CD available free to seniors

throughout B.C.

Adding to all this, the Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and

Women's Services has created for the UBCM a $100,000 fund to help municipalities

set up their own traffic safety commissions. These initiatives will make our

citizens safer, healthier and more productive. I'm proud to support them. Well

done — to all the folks who started all this with the Victoria Bike to Work

Week.

[1420]

Mr. Speaker: That concludes members' statements.

Oral Questions

EDUCATION FUNDING

J. Kwan: Just today, we see another story about students

losing dedicated teachers because of B.C. Liberal budgets. Richard Cook, a

counsellor and coach in the Saanich school district, is gone because Liberals

are cutting funding to school districts. The ministry says it is all about

declining enrolment, but parents know it is because this government just doesn't

care and has cut funding to the classroom.

To the Premier: why is the government spending millions on

television ads extolling the record of what the government has done and what a

great job they're doing to education, when teachers like Mr. Cook aren't in the

classroom where they belong?

Hon. T. Christensen: It's interesting that the member

refers to that

article because I read it, too, this morning. It referred

specifically to the fact that in the Saanich school district, they do have the

challenge of declining enrolment. They are actually projecting their enrolment

to decline by 23 percent between now and 2010. Let's face that this is a

significant challenge in the province and that means that…

Interjections.

[ Page 11392 ]

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. T. Christensen: …school districts are going to need to

adjust.

But I also know this in Saanich. I actually had the opportunity to

visit Cordova Bay Elementary School this morning and speak with teachers there.

I know they have incredibly dedicated teachers throughout Saanich. It's always

sad when we may lose a teacher for one reason or another, but we have

exceptional teachers in Saanich, and we have exceptional teachers in every

school in this province.

Mr. Speaker: Member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a

supplementary.

J. Kwan: You know what? This government loves to duck

responsibility for its cuts. It loves to deny the reality that parents are

facing.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

J. Kwan: It loves to deny the reality that parents and

teachers are facing. The fact is that they broke their new-era promise to

increase funding to education, but they can't be trusted. They can't be trusted.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order.

J. Kwan: Let me ask the minister a very simple question.

When you account for inflation and downloading, how much has funding to

education been cut since this B.C. Liberal government took office?

Hon. T. Christensen: The fact is that funding on a

per-pupil basis and funding in straight dollars is higher now than it has ever

been in this province.

We know the members opposite have an interesting record on their

accounting, but the member can look at the public accounts just as every member

of this House can, and they will see that the dollars are higher than they've

ever been. More importantly, as I visited school districts in every single part

of this province and schools in every one of those districts, what I've seen is

that those dollars are being put to exceptionally good use and teachers are

working hard to meet the needs of our students. It simply provides confidence to

me every time I'm in a school that we have one of the most exceptional school

systems in the world.

J. Kwan: It sounds like the minister has been watching too

many of the government's ads on TV. Maybe, just maybe, he should consult….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. members, let us hear the

question.

J. Kwan: Maybe the minister should consult the Chartered

Accountants of B.C. Here's what they had to say in a report issued just last

week, last Tuesday: "When inflation and additional costs downloaded to school

districts are taken into account, per-student funding will in fact be 3.5

percent less than in 2001."

[1425]

Again to the minister: does the Minister of Education accept the

findings of the chartered accountants that education has been cut — yes or no?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order.

Hon. T. Christensen: About three and a half years ago we

came into government. This is my first term in government. Lo and behold, I

think all of us on this side of the House were incredibly surprised to see the

fiscal nightmare that faced this province. We have worked exceptionally hard

over the last three and a half years to get the economy back on track, to get

this province moving in the right direction.

We're investing more money in public education now in this

province, because the province has the financial wherewithal to do it. Over the

next three years…

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please.

Hon. T. Christensen: …you will see that at a minimum, an

additional $313 million is being allocated to the Ministry of Education budget.

Our job is to make sure that those dollars make it into classrooms to make a

difference to students here in British Columbia.

J. MacPhail: Well, isn't that interesting? The shiny little

Minister of Education won't answer the question. The chartered accountants say

there's been a real cut of 3.5 percent in education. Here's what this

government's logic is. They dump buckets of new costs on parents, teachers and

school boards. Then they fill a little tiny thimble of coins and give it back

and say: "Oh, we've increased funding for education." That's their logic. I'll

take the chartered accountants' logic any day. The government is blowing.…

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. Hon. members,

let us hear the question, please.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Order.

J. MacPhail: The chartered accountants say there is a real

cut of 3.5 percent, and the Minister of Finance is

[ Page 11393 ]

clapping like a seal. That's interesting. The government is blowing millions

of tax dollars to spin fiction into fact. This year the school boards have lost

$35 million in grants to cope with the global budgets that this government

imposed on school districts.

According to Statistics Canada, B.C. has the second worst record

in the country in improving student-teacher ratios.

Interjection.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please.

J. MacPhail: Again to the minister….

Mr. Speaker: Hon. member, time for the question, please.

J. MacPhail: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the minister:

will he stand up and admit (1) that the chartered accountants are right, and

(2) what parents, teachers, students and the chartered accountants already know —

that since taking office, the B.C. Liberals have taken the hammer to education

dollars going into the classroom?

Hon. T. Christensen: I find it interesting that finally the

member is listening to the chartered accountants of the province. I just wish

for the people of British Columbia that she'd started listening about a decade

ago, and we'd be in a much better spot.

The fact is that we have approximately 30,000…

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. T. Christensen: …fewer students in the public

education system than we did five years ago. This year we've provided an

additional $85 million….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. We cannot hear

the answer. Please proceed.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. T. Christensen: For the 2004-05 school year we've

provided an additional $85 million in grants to school districts, and I was very

pleased about a month ago to add an additional $10 million to allow those school

districts to focus on textbooks.

Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a

supplementary question.

[1430]

J. MacPhail: Maybe he actually wants to go into the schools

and talk about that ten million bucks for school books.

Here's a rare document. This document would get a million bucks on

eBay. You can't find it on the Internet anymore, Mr. Speaker. Isn't that

interesting? A million bucks it would get on eBay. It's a question of trust with

this government — trust that the government broke its promise to enhance

education funding in this book, trust in a government that broke its promises to

parents and children, trust in a government that can't tell the truth about what

they've really done.

Before the last election, the Liberals promised — I know you don't

know this book anymore — to increase funding to education. Today we know they've

cut per-pupil funding. They weren't telling the truth then; they're advertising

fiction now. Why does the Minister of Education think we should trust him now?

Hon. G. Campbell: Education is important to everybody in

this House, and there are a couple of things that are important. Number one is

investing in education. Number two is getting results for education.

We've actually increased the investment over the next three years

by $313 million. By 2006 we will have invested $1.3 billion in capital

infrastructure improvements across the province. But more important than that,

we said we would take those additional dollars and focus them on students and

teachers and achievement in the classroom. What's happened? We've watched as the

number of grade 7 students meeting or exceeding expectations in writing is up 11

percent in British Columbia. We've watched as the number of aboriginal students

that are exceeding expectations is up by 4 percent. We've watched as 85 percent

of the number of grade 7 ESL students are now meeting or exceeding expectations.

That's up 14 percent.

This government is committed to our students, it's committed to

our teachers, and it's committed to our parents. We're committing resources to

make sure we have the best education system in Canada.

B.C. RAIL PRIVATIZATION PROCESS

E. Brenzinger: My question is to the Premier. My question

concerns the conduct of the Premier prior to the sale of B.C. Rail to CN. On

November 21, 2003, CP Rail wrote a letter to the Premier stating that the

government's handling of the B.C. Rail sale was extremely prejudiced. My

question to the Premier is: will he confirm that he did in fact meet with Paul

Tellier, the CEO of CN, prior to the RFP being issued regarding the sale of B.C.

Rail and that amongst the matters discussed was the final purchase price the

government was looking for?

Hon. K. Falcon: I think what that member ought to be very

excited about is that the final acquisition was $1 billion — a billion dollars

that we can now reinvest back in the northern communities, a billion dollars

that we will see improve transportation; $135 million for the northern

development fund, controlled by northerners for the benefit of northerners;

containerization at the port of Prince Rupert, which will create hundreds of

[ Page 11394 ]

new jobs; a new wheel shop in Prince George — lots of opportunities right

across the province of British Columbia, because this is a great partnership

deal for the province.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

HEALTH CARE SERVICES IN KIMBERLEY

W. McMahon: My question is to the Minister of Health

Services. Changes to the health care system in Kimberley, and in particular the

closure of the Kimberley Hospital, have been difficult for many of my

constituents. A few months ago the city of Kimberley, along with the interior

health authority, reached an agreement through which a primary care centre would

be established at the site of the old hospital. I'm wondering if the minister

can tell us and my constituents what services the new health care centre in

Kimberley will offer patients and when it will start functioning.

[1435]

Hon. C. Hansen: First of all, I'd like to thank the member

for Columbia River–Revelstoke for helping to facilitate a meeting two weeks ago

with the mayor of Kimberley. I thought it was a very productive meeting.

Certainly, there was some very good news coming out of Kimberley around delivery

of health services.

I'm pleased to advise the House that the interior health authority

has committed to establishing a new primary care centre in Kimberley.

Renovations are about to start in the very near future, and I can also report

that it is expected that that facility will be open and serving the residents of

Kimberley very early in the new year.

[End of question period.]

V. Anderson: My question is to the Minister of Management

Services.

Mr. Speaker: Excuse me. The bell terminated question

period, hon. member.

Tabling Documents

Hon. G. Collins: I have the honour to present the

guarantees and indemnities authorized and issued report for the fiscal year

ended March 31, 2004, in accordance with the Financial Administration Act,

section 72(8).

I also have the privilege to present a number of reports from the

various pension plans: the public service pension plan, British Columbia, 2003

annual report; the college pension plan, British Columbia, 2003 annual report;

the municipal pension plan 2003 annual report; the teachers pension plan,

British Columbia, 2003 annual report; the Pension Corporation of British

Columbia annual report 2003-04; the Members of the Legislative Assembly pension

plan, British Columbia, 2003 annual report; as well as the annual report of the

B.C. Investment Management Corporation for 2002-03.

Orders of the Day

Hon. G. Collins: I call second reading of Bill 60.

Second Reading of Bills

UNIVERSITY AMENDMENT ACT, 2004

Hon. S. Bond: I move Bill 60 now be read a second time.

On March 17 of this year, the Premier announced that the new

Okanagan campus of the University of British Columbia would have a separate

senate to govern local affairs. As well, the Premier committed to expanding the

university's board of governors to provide for representation from the Okanagan

region.

The new university and college are part of the province's

commitment to add 25,000 public post-secondary spaces by 2010 and to help ensure

that any high school graduate with a 75 percent average gains access to a B.C.

post-secondary institution.

When government consulted with stakeholders regarding the proposed

UBC Okanagan university model, one of the things that was most important to

those we talked to was the ability of the region to actually guide the

development of the university to meet its very unique needs.

[1440]

When the Premier announced the formation of UBC Okanagan, we

promised that a distinct senate for the Okanagan region would be part of this

new university. Currently, under the existing University Act, each university is

allowed only one senate, which is responsible for making decisions regarding the

academic governance of the institution. The act very clearly details the exact

composition of the boards.

I'm really pleased today to be able to say that the changes being

made to the University Act by Bill 60 will allow the University of British

Columbia to establish an additional autonomous senate for the Okanagan, which is

a major step towards granting the people of the Okanagan their own full

university directed by an independent senate to meet the needs that are

important and the priorities that are significant in the southern interior of

the province. The amendments being introduced today will also expand the UBC

board of governors to guarantee local representation for the Okanagan campus of

the university on the overall UBC board of governors.

But we've also done some other things in terms of the UBC Okanagan

model to ensure that the people of the Okanagan have the ability to direct and

influence the shape of this new university. We've appointed two advisory

councils, one that will serve the UBC Okanagan component and one that will serve

the Okanagan College. This is an incredible opportunity for students and their

families in the Okanagan, and

[ Page 11395 ]

we are absolutely thrilled with the new options that will be available in

that part of the province.

Today Bill 60 also makes two changes to the University Act which

will help in terms of deregulation. These two changes involve reducing the red

tape surrounding the disposition of university lands and granting the powers of

a natural person to the public universities that are governed by this act.

As I mentioned in my introductory remarks, the first amendment is

intended to establish a second senate for the University of British Columbia. In

addition, a series of other amendments will ensure that we have other

flexibility for institutions in our province.

When we look at the second change in terms of the effective local

representation on the board of governors for the University of British Columbia,

we wanted to propose an amendment to provide for an expanded board for that

university. This will ensure that the regional interests of the Okanagan are

considered wherever the board exercises its powers and will fulfil the

commitment that the Premier made to provide a high-quality education facility in

the Okanagan that, first and foremost, considers regional interests.

The amendments that we are making in terms of deregulation will

change the approval requirement for the disposition of land from the

Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council to the Minister of Advanced Education. In

addition, the University Act will be amended to grant the universities with the

powers of a natural person.

The University Act currently requires

Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council approval before a university makes any

disposition of land. This is an unnecessarily lengthy approval process for

routine procedures. Bill 60 will amend the University Act to require that only

the Minister of Advanced Education needs to approve the disposition. This

reduction will streamline the disposition process while maintaining the current

government accountability framework. Overall, the amendment will serve to

simplify the administration of a routine procedure.

In addition, as global competition increases, universities in

British Columbia have been seeking innovative approaches to their operations —

for example, initiatives that employ endowed land as a vehicle for

revenue-generation. The universities currently maintaining these innovations are

hindered by their lack of autonomy as a natural person, while universities in

other provinces experience such autonomy. To address this, these amendments will

give the universities the powers of a natural person. The granting of these

powers would be consistent with the current practice of universities in other

provinces, and it would be in line with the trend to give universities and their

governing boards greater autonomy to manage their affairs.

This power will also provide universities with additional

flexibility in their day-to-day operations. In addition, the change would ease

current restrictions on the ability of public universities to pursue new

opportunities and would allow them to be more responsive and more competitive on

a national and international level.

[1445]

In conclusion, the amendments being made by Bill 60 to the senate

provisions, the establishment of the council of senates and the expansion of the

board of governors will set up the framework for the expansion of UBC into the

Okanagan. The government is fulfilling our commitment to provide a high-quality

educational facility to what is currently an underserved area of the province.

The proposed amendments to approval requirements for the disposition of land and

the granting of powers of the natural person will serve to streamline the

operations of our universities while maintaining the current accountability

frameworks.

Many of the limitations placed on universities were enacted at a

time when the scope and complexity of university operations was much more

limited. The proposed amendments will aid in deregulation and recognize the

modern status of universities in our province by giving them a more appropriate

level of autonomy. These amendments fall within our three-year service plan to

cut red tape and build a more efficient and integrated post-secondary education

system. They are consistent with our government's new-era commitments to remove

unnecessary legislation and regulations that impede the efficient and effective

delivery of services. Most importantly, they signal our confidence in the

ability of institutions to make wise management decisions and to operate in a

way that puts students first. That is a principle that is the first and of most

significant importance to my ministry and to this government.

Hon. R. Thorpe: I'm pleased to rise in the House today to

talk in support of this bill. Before I get to the specifics of the bill, I would

just like to say thanks to the Premier and to the Minister of Advanced Education

for the tremendous commitment they've shown to the people of the Okanagan in

British Columbia.

You know, over the next few years, up to the year 2010, we will be

creating 55 new spaces for post-secondary education in the Okanagan. That

follows as part of our commitment — the Premier's commitment — to the largest

single increase in commitments to access for students of 25,000 seats. That is

the largest single commitment in British Columbia for 40 years. These new seats

in the Okanagan will take our enrolment capabilities from 6,600 to 12,100

opportunity spaces for our students of tomorrow so that they can get their

education closer to home in the Okanagan and the southern interior.

Over this period of time our government will invest in Okanagan

College and UBC Okanagan over $100 million in capital funding, plus an

additional $52 million in additional annual operating funds for these two

institutions. When we are done, it is estimated that these two fine

post-secondary institutions will generate $500 million in economic benefits to

the Okanagan — up from $117 million that is being generated today by Okanagan

University College.

When I talk about Okanagan University College, let me just say

thanks to all of those who have made this

[ Page 11396 ]

institution truly a very important institution in the entire Okanagan. It has

served the purpose, but it is now time for us to move forward with this new

vision of Okanagan College and UBC Okanagan. But again, I want to thank those

who work so diligently in making sure that OUC provided opportunities for our

students.

One of the great things about UBC Okanagan is the tremendous

international recognition and credibility that this facility will attract, both

for faculty and for research investment. The new Okanagan College will offer

expanded training opportunities in what is currently the OUC's KLO campus in

Kelowna, but also in Revelstoke, Armstrong, Vernon, Salmon Arm, Summerland,

Penticton, Oliver and Osoyoos.

[1450]

To show our government's commitment under the leadership of the

Premier and our Minister of Advanced Education, this year's students at OUC were

able to see their tuition decreased by $1,000 — again providing a benefit to

students and families in the Okanagan. But this bill is about a government with

a vision for post-secondary education, a government that made commitments on

March 17, 2004, and a government now fulfilling those commitments. We said we

would expand the board of governors to provide representation from the Okanagan.

We're doing that. We said we would allow and provide for more senate

representation. We are now doing that to ensure that the voices, the expertise

and the knowledge of the Okanagan are there to represent the needs of the

southern interior of British Columbia.

This is good news. This is positive news. You know, from time to

time the members of the opposition…. I would be very interested to hear what

they have to say on this bill, because in the past when this was announced,

their leader, who is not in this House, was against this announcement — was

against the expansion of post-secondary opportunities and seats in the Okanagan.

I know it is hard for people to separate the political rhetoric.

Last Saturday I was at an event in the South Okanagan — the Minister of Water,

Land and Air Protection's riding — and I happened to be acting as an auctioneer

to raise funds for wine education in our post-secondary education facilities in

the Okanagan. We did raise over $24,000. I'm sure that didn't have much to do

with the auctioneer, Mr. Speaker, before you say that.

The fact of the matter is that it gave me the opportunity to stand

and chat with a young lady who was working at the event serving beverages to the

clientele. I asked her where she was going to school. Her name is Robyn. To me

this sort of crystallized it all. She said: "I'm currently going to OUC." I

said: "What are you going to do after that?" She said: "Rick, I'm so excited.

I'm now going to have the opportunity to go to UBC Okanagan. All my life I

dreamed of the opportunity to go to UBC, but I never thought I would have that

opportunity. Now I'm going to have that opportunity in the Okanagan."

So when it is all said and done, we should actually be focused on

the students — the students of today, the students of tomorrow. When we can

create the opportunity for those students to have access, whether it be to

Okanagan College or to UBC Okanagan — whatever they choose, whatever field they

want to pursue — they can do it closer to home and be closer to their families.

I believe that is going to create opportunities in the Okanagan.

To Robyn and all of the other students of the Okanagan: thanks to

the vision of the Premier, the hard work of the minister responsible for

advanced education, Bill 60 makes this a reality for the students of the

Okanagan. I say good on you.

Hon. B. Barisoff: It is a great privilege to rise in the

House to support Bill 60 and the fact that on March 17, 2004, the Premier of

this province along with the Minister of Advanced Education made a great, bold

move to advance education in the Okanagan Valley.

In 1965 we had roughly 54,000 people in the valley. Today we have

roughly a little over 300,000 people in the valley, so the decision to allow UBC

Okanagan to move into the valley gives us two great facilities. It gives us UBC

Okanagan right in the Okanagan, and it makes Okanagan College one of the biggest

colleges outside the lower mainland.

I'm truly excited about what's happening. The Minister of Advanced

Education has put into this bill that we would actually have a separate senate

in the Okanagan, which gives us a huge, huge advantage in allowing a lot of the

decisions that we want to make right in the Okanagan Valley to be made there.

What we're doing is combining the great facility of the Okanagan

College and the great facility of UBC Okanagan. Tying the two together — I don't

want to say it — we're ultimately going to have some of the best education that

we're going to have certainly in the province. Again, a lot of credit goes to

the Premier. It was a vision of his, along with the Minister of Advanced

Education. Together the two of them, along with all the MLAs from the Okanagan,

made this dream a reality.

[1455]

I know, as my colleague the Minister of Provincial Revenue from

Okanagan-Westside has just mentioned, in talking to a lot of the young people in

the Okanagan, they're truly excited about what's going to happen.

I'm truly excited as an MLA for the South Okanagan, knowing what's

going to happen with UBC Okanagan, knowing what's going to happen with Okanagan

College and the fact that we're going to have these two great facilities in the

Okanagan.

Again, I want to give credit where credit is due — to all the

people who came before us who, when they started Okanagan College, turned it

into Okanagan University College. Now we've gone back to having UBC Okanagan and

Okanagan College — two great facilities right here…. Not right here in the

Okanagan, but if I was in the Okanagan, that's what I'd be saying. I know that

the Minister of Advanced Education has

[ Page 11397 ]

some big announcements that are coming for the south end of the valley in the

next few days. I'll be part of that, and again I'm truly excited about what's

happened.

Hon. G. Abbott: It is a great pleasure for me to rise and

speak today as the member for Shuswap, because Salmon Arm has long had one of

the centres — earlier as Okanagan College, more recently as Okanagan University

College. I really do want to say a few words of appreciation, particularly to

the Minister of Advanced Education and to the Premier, for their leadership in

bringing about one of the really, really exciting educational developments in

British Columbia in a long time.

The change that was announced, the creation of the new UBC

Okanagan and the new Okanagan College, was part of the announcement of 25,000

new seats for education — student spaces for post-secondary education across

B.C. by 2010. That is a great step forward. It is going to ensure that my kids

and my grandkids and students across British Columbia have the opportunity to

access the post-secondary education that is so important to their success.

The change to Okanagan University College is, I think, special to

me for a number of reasons, in part because I was a student there at one time.

Also, because I had the opportunity to teach there for a long time, I know and

love that institution well. I think this is just a tremendous step forward. It

is going to provide great educational opportunities, really unparalleled

educational opportunities for young people in the Shuswap and the North Okanagan

as they move forward with their education. They'll have the opportunities not

only at the Okanagan College centres in Salmon Arm and Armstrong and Vernon and

Revelstoke, and so on, in the north end of the valley, not to mention the south

end of the valley. They'll have those opportunities at Okanagan College.

They will also, of course, have the opportunity to ladder into UBC

Okanagan at Kelowna and become a part of that great educational institution, the

University of British Columbia. They'll be able to do it right in the valley — a

tremendous change.

An institution that has also had a great announcement in the last

few months is the Thompson Rivers University. University College of the Cariboo

is going to become Thompson Rivers University, and of course there will be a lot

of students from the Shuswap who likely will be going to Kamloops to attend that

now much-improved post-secondary institution as well.

I was first a student, Mr. Speaker — and this will astonish you —

at Okanagan College back in 1970.

L. Mayencourt: No.

Hon. G. Abbott: Yes, 1970-71. That's correct. That was in

the early years of the Salmon Arm centre of Okanagan College. I returned there

after my graduate and post-graduate years down at UBC and UVic to teach at

Okanagan College, which became Okanagan University College later on. I had the

opportunity to teach there, in fact, until 1996 when I became part of this great

institution here via the 1996 election.

[1500]

I know the institution very well. Okanagan University College was

a great teaching university college. People had absolutely exceptional teachers

there and a great range of programs, whether it was academic, vocational,

technical. Students in the Okanagan were able to access great educational

opportunities in the full range at their local campus centres.

What we've achieved through the creation of UBC Okanagan, through

the new Okanagan College, is to really build on the strengths of all of those

institutions — Okanagan College, Okanagan University College, the University of

British Columbia.

[G. Trumper in the chair.]

I think this is just an exceptional example of the kind of

partnerships that can so markedly improve educational opportunities and so

markedly improve the prospects for young British Columbians — particularly in

the North Okanagan, the Shuswap and, I guess, up and down the Okanagan — as they

are going to enjoy this very special, wonderful educational opportunity. Again,

I thank the minister for this, and of course, I join her in supporting this bill

and wish her the best of success.

D. Jarvis: This act — Bill 60, University Amendment Act of

2004 — is drafted with the intent to make the University of British Columbia's

campuses, both in Vancouver and now in the Okanagan, each have a voice in the

administration and operation by expanding their board of governors. Also, this

bill gives the universities more flexibility and independence in their

day-to-day operations.

Another university college that has satellite campuses, as well,

is one that I would like to describe to you, and I would be remiss if I didn't

take this opportunity to do so. That is the fact that in the heart of my riding

of North Vancouver–Seymour we are most fortunate to have Capilano College, a

first-rate post-secondary institution that has satellite campuses in both

Squamish and up the Sunshine Coast. I understand that almost 50 percent of all

North Shore graduates in our high schools choose full-time study and attend

Capilano College for reasons that are as far-ranging as the programs they offer,

such as preparatory courses, university transfer courses, business and

management studies, creative and applied arts, and programs like those — just to

name a few.

The current enrolment in Capilano College is almost 7,200 and

boasts 45 percent university transfers and another 45 percent that are in career

and vocational programs. Just in case you thought that only North Shore

residents attend, they are made up of 44 percent of our student body from the

North Shore. Twenty-eight percent of the students come from Vancouver and

Burnaby, and the remaining 28 percent

[ Page 11398 ]

come from all over British Columbia, Canada and, in fact, the world.

Capilano College has one of the highest university transfer rates

of any college in British Columbia, with most of the students going on to

full-time studies at the University of British Columbia. The college is never

stagnant, adding a broader range of programs to its roster every year.

Just this last August my colleague the Minister of Advanced

Education announced the new program under the B.C. tourism and hospitality

education and training consortium. This is a very forward-thinking program

headed by Capilano College and Vancouver Community College. It works in

partnership with each other and other post-secondary colleges throughout the

province. The goal is to ensure world-class services and support training for

the expansion of tourism before, during and after the 2010 Olympics.

[1505]

For example, in the tourism end of it they also do a very

exceptional course in tourism, and they actually have graduate students in

Southeast Asia now. As a matter of fact, I had dinner with some people from

Vietnam and the Premier of the most northern province in Vietnam that abuts

China. They were very excited about the fact of their association with Capilano

College and to promote tourism throughout Vietnam.

Another program which Capilano hopes to spearhead is a film

industry training program, something that I will be talking about in this House

in a few weeks in a private member's statement. This is another example of the

Capilano administration looking to the future, seeing the niches in the current

and future labour market that can be filled by our young British Columbians and

giving them a little bit of an edge over the jurisdictions not only in B.C. but

the world job market.

Another program announced this year is the first nations tourism

management co-op program, which the provincial government funded for $1.4

million; $75,000 of it was going to our Capilano College. This project will be a

key component in delivering Capilano's First Nations Tourism Management

Co-operative diploma program, enabling students to apply the skills learned

through the program in a real work environment in hotels, resorts, adventure and

cultural tourism — first nation attractions, conferences and special events. The

program was developed in consultation with the Squamish and Mount Currie first

nations and the Musqueam Indian bands.

It's upon this success that I support fully Bill 60. The

government's biggest success, I believe, is the expansion of post-secondary

institutions across British Columbia. Some 25,000 are expected by the year 2010.

Therefore, I thank you for the opportunity to speak to this bill.

J. Bray: It is my definite pleasure to stand in support of

Bill 60, University Amendment Act, 2004.

As we've heard other speakers and the Minister of Advanced

Education lay out, this fulfils the last administrative function for the new

university, UBC Okanagan, that was announced in the spring.

I think that this actually alludes to a much larger issue, and

it's one of the achievements of this government that I am most proud of because

it represents some of the larger things that we've tried to do since we were

elected in 2001. One of the things that we promised to do with British

Columbians was to go out in meaningful ways to re-engage legislative committees,

to go out and listen to British Columbians, hear their priorities and then to

come back and actually enact good public policy to achieve the goals of British

Columbians.

Yet again, we have another example of where that has come about.

It's important to know that in 2003, the prebudget consultation process was

enacted, as it is every year, and the Select Standing Committee on Finance

travelled around listening to British Columbian communities in every region of

this province. One of the things that struck the committee was that although

health care is always an important topic and K-to-12 is an important topic, the

predominant theme that came forward from business, labour, rural communities,

urban communities, the labour unions, the colleges and universities themselves —

from every group — was the need to reinvest in post-secondary education.

Before I go into the details of the Finance Committee's report on

those findings, it's important for us to understand where we came from in the

nineties, because the Leader of the Opposition is sitting there listening to

this debate, not really participating, and there's no wonder. They talk a great

game about the importance of post-secondary education, but they only had one

word for the way they managed in ten years post-secondary education in this

province — one word. The word was "freeze." They figured if they just freeze

everything, things will work well. What did the NDP do? They froze capital

budgets. They told universities: "You can't build. You can't meet the demand in

your communities. You can't build anything. No new seats."

[1510]

Now, they froze tuitions, but they also froze the money that was

going to support universities and colleges. The result? The NDP's decade of the

nineties led to a decline in enrolment in British Columbia. When the rest of the

country was seeing increases, in B.C. we saw a decline in enrolment. In fact,

fewer students were able to get in. The reason? Well, university presidents,

college presidents and boards of governors all said to the NDP, year after year:

"You are restricting our ability to meet the demand we have in our communities.

By freezing tuitions, by freezing capital budgets and by freezing dialogue we

are actually reducing the number of students who can attend."

The other result? As we all know, tuition is but one component of

the cost of going to school. A larger component is transportation, food, rent,

laundry, travel to attend institutions. By restricting and freezing all of those

budgets, universities were not able to provide the

[ Page 11399 ]

full spectrum of courses necessary, often meaning students had to come a

fifth and even a sixth year in order to achieve their degrees, diplomas or

certificates. The result? The small amount they saved in the freeze was eaten up

within the first month of the extra year they had to attend, to go to

university.

That was the policy of post-secondary education for the NDP — to

just freeze everything. The result was fewer students able to get in, spending

more money, taking longer to get their degrees in institutions unable to meet

the demand.

What we heard last year in the Finance Committee were pleas from

communities, from labour, from business, from small towns and large towns to

please look at post-secondary education as the kind of investment that will

improve lives, improve communities, improve the economy, improve health.

Madam Speaker, I just want to read one of our main recommendations

from last year's report: "In terms of future program spending, we strongly

endorse the public's preference for more funding for the public post-secondary

system, particularly to tackle access issues. We believe there must be more

opportunities for British Columbians with the appropriate competencies to access

our post-secondary opportunities, be they provincial colleges and universities

or private sector training institutions. As well, the province as a whole

benefits from having a more educated workforce."

In our specific recommendations, No. 7 specifically, our

recommendation as a Finance Committee was that the government provide additional

funds in future years for post-secondary education as they become available —

fairly clear-cut, fairly obvious. So what did we announce in the throne speech?

Twenty-five thousand additional post-secondary spaces right across this province

— the most aggressive expansion of post-secondary education in 40 years.

Now, that didn't just come out of nowhere. That came out of

British Columbians speaking to the Finance Committee and this government and the

Minister of Advanced Education and the Premier listening to the people of

British Columbia. That is how this government has operated.

Bill 60 actually is the implementation of some of the benefits

that have gone to the Okanagan Valley to look at aviation sciences, to look at

health sciences, to look at university arts degrees, engineering. That is what

our commitment has done.

Now, it was interesting that that's what British Columbians said

to this government. That's what the Finance Committee said to this Legislature.

When the announcement was made in the spring, what was Carole James and the

NDP's response? Oh, they were against it. They didn't want a university in the

Okanagan. Stunning. British Columbians clearly wanted expansion, British

Columbians clearly wanted investment, but the NDP said: "Oh no. That's not a

good idea. We don't want that." We do things differently here on the government

side. We listen to British Columbians' priorities, we act on British Columbians'

priorities, and we deliver on British Columbians' priorities. Bill 60 is a

continuation of that promise and that delivery.

As a result of the changes we've made just this year to

post-secondary education, what are some of the outcomes? The NDP only focus on

inputs. They figure that if they freeze budgets and run away and turtle, somehow

things will magically happen. But they don't actually look at what happens at

the other end. British Columbians told us what was happening: lower enrolment,

less access, longer time to graduate, fewer program options.

[1515]

What are our achievements in three years? Well, enrolment is up.

In fact, it is up and leading the country — yet one more indication that B.C. is

back. We're leading the way.

Here's another thing that's important with respect to how we've

allowed universities and colleges to actually make decisions based on their

community needs, their student needs, their faculty needs. By letting them

operate in a more autonomous fashion and getting out of their way, universities

and colleges in this province have gone out and partnered with the private

sector, with other foundations, with other institutions to create creative ways

to provide additional student financial aid to their own students. We lead the

country in the increase in bursaries and scholarships available to students from

institutions in this province. That's because we got out of the way and allowed

institutions to make those partnerships, without dictating every last thing. By

allowing capital expansion to occur, we've signalled to business, to the

communities and to the foundations that we will support post-secondary education

today, tomorrow and for a generation to come and that their investment will

leverage great benefits for the students that attend in the communities right

across the province.

There's another issue that our expansion of 25,000 spaces will

deal with. As we know and have read in the papers, one of the other results of

the NDP's freezing-and-turtling policy for post-secondary education was that the

entrance level for students to be able to get into university was rising and

rising and rising, literally to the point where an A-plus might not be good

enough to get into university.

This Premier and this Minister of Advanced Education have a

vision. It's a simple vision, but it's a vision that's got my community in

Victoria very excited. It's the vision that any student who works hard and who

attains a B average should be able to enter university and continue their

studies should they so choose. That is a vision. Now we're doing the things that

implement that vision, that actually make it a reality: 25,000 new spaces, the

University of British Columbia in Kelowna, the Thompson Rivers University in

Kamloops. These are ways that we're achieving those very goals.

Already, in one year since the announcement in the throne speech,

we're seeing at the University of Victoria that the entrance level is starting

to decline. Several hundred students are now going to UVic this year that

[ Page 11400 ]

would not have been able to go last year, and that will continue as we

continue to bring new spaces on line between now and the year 2010.

That means a student that works hard in their community and gets a

B average can go to university in their community. They can stay closer to home.

They can pursue their own dreams. Do you know who benefits from that kind of

vision? Certainly the student does. The student's family benefits; the province

benefits; our communities benefit. That individual's family…. As they go on to

earn several thousand dollars a year more because of their post-secondary

education, their family benefits, which means the next generation benefits.

That's what a vision is all about.

What the Minister of Advanced Education has done is taken that

vision and started to implement it in a sustainable, long-term way to the

benefit of faculty, researchers, students and communities, because we recognize

that colleges and universities are critical parts of the social and economic

fabric of communities. They aren't just a bunch of buildings with glass and

bricks. In many cases they are one of the heartbeats of a community. When

they're strong, when they're supported, when they're able to expand and when

they're able to be flexible and meet the needs of their community, they enhance

the community for everybody, whether they attend or not.

On the Finance Committee this year we were at Thompson Rivers

University the day they actually made the announcement. I can tell you, the

atmosphere in that facility was electric. People were excited about the fact

that they were attending a university. They were dreaming their own dreams. The

university, the faculty, were dreaming about new research opportunities, ways in

which they can focus their research on areas that are critical for the Kamloops,

Shuswap, Okanagan and South Chilcotin area in forestry, in tourism. These are

exciting things.

[1520]

Another important thing about our vision for our post-secondary

education that the Premier announced a few years ago and that the Minister of

Advanced Education is helping to deliver is a $134 million investment in the

life sciences initiative. Now, what that really means is we recognized and we

heard, when we were in opposition as well as in government, the need to increase

the number of medical students that we have in the province. We also knew that

fully 75 percent of people who train in a particular location will stay in that

location after graduation. When the NDP were in government, they heard the same

message. They didn't do anything.

We have doubled the number of spaces for medical students in this

province. In three years we have built the facilities now at the University of

Northern British Columbia and at the University of Victoria to train physicians.

In UNBC they'll specialize in rural northern remote medicine, a critical

shortage that we've heard about for years. We're meeting that need. Those first

students have entered school this year. At UVic doctors will be training and

specializing in gerontology — again, a critical factor in our health care system

as we deal with an aging population and the tsunami of the baby boomers as they

enter their elder years.

That $134 million is going to translate into better health care.

It's going to translate into more doctors, and it's going to translate into

better research, not just at UBC but at the University of Victoria and

University of Northern British Columbia. Those are dynamic changes that benefit

communities, benefit physicians and benefit health care.

It's important for us to realize that by listening to British

Columbians through the Finance Committee, by developing a vision and a plan and

by executing that plan, we are benefiting students right across this province.

We were in Fort St. John earlier this month, and they were incredibly excited

about some of the opportunities in their college. We've heard from every

community we went to about how pleased they are that they're getting additional

spaces and the plans and the ideas that they have for those spaces and the kind

of students that they're going to be able to attract into their communities.

That's right: attract into their communities — and not just their own

communities. They're now becoming centres of excellence for people in the

surrounding area.

Terrace is another example. We toured the new facility being built

in Prince Rupert that will provide up to 400 spaces for students in the

northwest to attend to study tourism, to study their general arts degrees. It's

very exciting. The town is electric at that opportunity, but that doesn't happen

unless government listens to the people, develops a plan, brings forth the

vision, works with our professional civil servants to develop the actual

implementation and then has the political will to actually deliver that

implementation.

I know that the NDP likes to harbour that they care about

students. I know the NDP likes to say that they watched over post-secondary

education, but the facts show that their freeze-and-turtle approach didn't work.

This is an exciting time for post-secondary education in the

province. We are now in a position where the rest of the country is looking at

what we're doing. We're seeing research move to this province. We're seeing

students move to this province. We're seeing scholarships and bursaries raised

in the province and from other places to support our students. I want to

congratulate the Premier. I want to congratulate the Minister of Advanced

Education for continuing on this vision, for bringing forth the greatest

expansion in the last 40 years in post-secondary education.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak, Madam Speaker.

J. MacPhail: I want to begin, first of all…. I didn't have

an opportunity to do this earlier today — to send my best wishes to the member

for Esquimalt-Metchosin. Our thoughts are with him and his family, and we are

praying for him. I just want to say that. He was travelling with both the member

for Victoria–Beacon Hill and me on the Finance Committee tour. Our prayers are

with you.

[ Page 11401 ]

I wasn't actually going to speak to this legislation. I was going

to wait for some actually substantive legislation around the issue of advanced

education to be introduced into this Legislature, but I expect we're not going

to get that. I'm just going to make a few brief comments about post-secondary

education in this province, and it will be quite interesting as it follows the

comments made by the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill, who just spoke.

[1525]

I was quite taken aback when that member had the gall to stand up

and say that post-secondary enrolment fell in the 1990s. I just couldn't miss an

opportunity to set the record straight. I know that perhaps that member isn't

that worried about what he says in the Legislature because his career is coming

to an end, but nevertheless, I would expect that when one looks back on history,

one would actually be able….

Interjections.

Deputy Speaker: Order. Order, please.

J. MacPhail: I would expect that when one looks back at

what one actually contributed to the debate, it at least be factual. So let me

just say first what did happen in the 1990s to post-secondary education, and

then let's just examine what we're hearing about it now.

The greatest number of universities opened in Canada in the decade

of the 1990s was here in British Columbia. The enrolment in post-secondary

education in British Columbia went from second-last in the participation rate to

second from the top, a fact that is real and not the myth or the misleading that

the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill just did.

Tuitions were frozen for six straight years and became the

second-lowest tuition rates in all of Canada. The only rates lower were in

Quebec, where Quebec has a two-system rate. If you were a Quebecker — Quebecois

— you had lower tuition rates, but if you came from anywhere else, the tuition

rates were much higher than in British Columbia. So amongst that group, British

Columbians were the lowest in paying for tuitions.

The funding for post-secondary education as a percentage rate

increased every single year — the real rate of increase. The real per-pupil

funding every single year increased, unlike this year. Apprenticeship and

training funding increased every single year.

Community colleges were treated with a great deal of respect and

were given their full worth. We continued with the good work done by the

previous Minister of Advanced Education to the time of us coming in — now the

current member for Comox Valley — to introduce a system of university colleges

into the British Columbia system. That's what happened in the 1990s. We also

made adult basic education completely tuition-free, and apprenticeship training

was completely tuition-free as well.

Here's what has happened from 2001 onward. Tuition fees across

this province have more than doubled. This government is happy to have them just

a little bit above the national average, as they'll say now. I think we're the

fifth-highest province,

whereas I said before that in almost every other

circumstance we were the lowest province for tuition fees. But this government —

unlike for businesses, where they have to have the lowest rates of business

contributions to our taxation system — is happy to have us creep up every year

to make post-secondary education expensive. Apprentices have to pay for their

schooling now for the first time ever. Students who need adult basic education

are having to pay exorbitant tuition now. Where they can get adult basic

education courses, they have to pay for that now.

[1530]

It's not just tuition costs that have gone up under this

government. All of the extra fees that students have to pay now are the highest

in Canada. Don't take my word for it. That's according to Statistics Canada that

they're highest in Canada — the extraneous fees that students have to pay.

Interjections.

J. MacPhail: Well, actually, I hear all of the heckling

coming from the members. I welcome them to join the debate and put their

comments on the record. I hope it will be a little more factual than the member

for Victoria–Beacon Hill. But as I say, when one is retiring, when one is sort

of having a forced retirement, one has to be a little less careful with the

facts. I just hope that they engage in the debate, Madam Speaker, because it's

important to know what's going on in post-secondary education.

Here's what I heard on the prebudget consultation tour of the

Finance Committee. It's a very dedicated group. We're working hard, and we're

listening to British Columbians. When we were in Kamloops, the college — now a

university named the Thompson Rivers University — made a presentation. It's

actually in writing, so we can check this out. They said: "We've expanded access

over the last years with no increased funding per pupil." It's right there in

black and white. Well, actually, it's in colour — it's a beautiful colour

brochure — but there it is. When questioned, they said: "No, we haven't received

any extra funding for per-pupil."

Well, the Minister of Advanced Education is calling what the

university said nonsense. I welcome her challenging the written document that

they presented to us. I welcome her challenging the words of the president of

the Northwest Community College, when she said that enrolment is on the decline

in the Northwest Community College.

Why? Well, they actually did a survey. Applications to the college

were up, and they surveyed all of those people who applied and qualified about

why they weren't enrolling. The vast majority of them said it was because they

couldn't afford to. Now, that's on the record. That's on Hansard , by a

group we value greatly, so I welcome the Minister of Advanced Education get-

[ Page 11402 ]

ting up and challenging the president of that college saying that.

We heard that elsewhere as well. If I remember correctly, we heard

it in Cranbrook, where enrolment was at 108 percent when this government took

over. It then fell to 100 percent of capacity, and now it's down around the

mid-90s of capacity. A 10 to 15 percent decline in enrolment — that's

interesting.

We hear that the enrolment is down at Okanagan University College

as well.

Hon. R. Thorpe: Because they've got jobs.

Hon. K. Falcon: Exactly.

J. MacPhail: Now, isn't that interesting? Here we are…. The

great brains trust of that front bench over there says enrolment is down because

people have jobs.

Hon. K. Falcon: That's right.

J. MacPhail: So that's this government's answer to dealing

with the skills shortage — is it? That the only province in the country where

enrolment is on the decline on an institutional basis…. They take pride in it.

Well, let's look at the youth unemployment rate in this province.

It's the highest in Canada. In August of 2004 the unemployment rate amongst the

15 to 24 was the highest in Canada. Was that a one-month aberration? No.

Unemployment amongst youth has been steadily rising this year. I hate it when

those facts get in the way of a good government spin.

Now, let's also look at their saying that they've created the most

seats in 40 years. I'm actually surprised this has gone untested in the media,

but I understand there's a relationship between advertising and media reporting.

I do understand, and I accept that. I do; I accept it. It's the marketplace.

This government is paying more…

Interjections.

Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Order. Thank you.

[1535]

J. MacPhail: …in advertising than anyone could have

possibly imagined. Another broken promise by the Premier, who said, prior to the

election, that people hate government advertising. Well, it's true that they

don't like this government. Perhaps the Premier should look at the link between

his broken promise and why they don't like this government.

I challenge the Minister of Advanced Education to stand up year by

year and admit to the number of post-secondary seats created in the last 40

years — year by year. I expect she will be very reluctant — in fact, will not

agree to do that — because her own advertising will then be proven to be false —

her own advertising. I'd love it — for the last 40 years.

I expect it will be shown that the current member for Comox

Valley, when he was Minister of Advanced Education under the then Socred

government, had a better record than the post-secondary seats that this

government has added. By the way, Madam Speaker, it's on a promise that this

government is advertising. Let's be clear. They're promising the 25,000 seats by

— what is it? — the year 2010. Are we doing '01 through '10? That's ten years,

is it? Or is it nine, or is it eight that they're making their claim over?

Throughout the 1990s, the average was well over 4,000 seats added

per year. That includes the period of the Social Credit, too, as the late

eighties were as well. I can hardly wait to see the Minister of Advanced

Education's math. I want her to stand and tell us on a year-by-year basis. How

many have actually been delivered, and how many are promised? What's the annual

rate of creation that makes this record believable, according to their

advertising?

I expect that the students with whom I speak every week, going to

post-secondary institutions, who say it's tougher and tougher to keep going

because of the horrendous costs and the burgeoning debt load that they're

assuming…. I expect they know the truth in the face of those ads by this

government — those misleading ads. I expect the fact that access to UBC is not

getting any easier, that this government hasn't increased the participation rate

at all…. I expect those students and their parents will know. I expect the

parents who come into my office and are so upset because this government

cancelled the first-year grants for student financial aid…. Therefore, they

can't afford to send their children to university. They'll know the truth.

I expect those students who know that the smoke and mirrors around

student financial aid is nothing but smoke and mirrors, with a heavy dose of

carbon monoxide in terms of what it really means for killing people's education.

I expect they will understand what the student financial aid change that this

government has brought in really means for post-secondary education.

That's the real record of this government. That's the real record

that they will defend over the course of the next few months. That's the real

record that they'll have to defend when they said to students back in the last

election that they would carry on the tuition fee freeze. Oh, but that's that

silly New Era document, which has disappeared from the face of the earth.

It was in that silly New Era document that…. Oh no, I'm sorry. It wasn't.

It was actually in this chamber that the then opposition voted to carry on the

tuition freeze. It was on the election trail, when asked directly, that the

Liberal candidates said they supported a continuation of the tuition freeze and

never for a moment hinted that not only were they going to double tuition, but

they were also going to increase virtually every other cost.

[1540]

Madam Speaker, I had to seize this moment because there won't be

any substantive legislation coming in to expand education. This bill doesn't do

anything to expand education or the participation rate of people at the

post-secondary level. It doesn't do anything. This

[ Page 11403 ]

bill doesn't do one iota to expand education even for the Okanagan — not one

iota. I just thought that we could refer to these differing views — one factual,

from me, and one mythological, from the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill.

H. Bloy: I'm embarrassed to be following the member for

Vancouver-Hastings after some of the facts and figures that she's misquoted. I'm

not sure who she speaks to in the real world, but I can tell you that when I go

to Simon Fraser University and speak to students up there, they're all pleased

with the number of seats that are now open in this province. They have an

opportunity to get the classes when they want them, and they have an opportunity

to graduate within their four- or five-year period — unlike the last government,

which was making students sit for six years.

The former speaker, you know, referred to the facts. I can tell

you she's never let the facts get in the way of her story or her spin on

anything that I've heard in this House for three and a half years.

Really, I stood up today to thank the Premier of this province and

the Minister of Advanced Education for what they're doing for the southern

interior. Somebody said: "Well, why would you stand up for the southern

interior?" I know that I have a university in my riding, and I'm so proud of the

work that the minister's done there. I know what it will do for the southern

interior. Bringing UBC up there spreads the wealth and the opportunity for every

student in this province.

This Minister of Advanced Education brought forward 25,000 new

seats, and it wasn't a number that was picked out of the air or on a whim. It

was research that was done stating that any student with a 75 percent average

should have the opportunity to go to college or university. With this, we've now

developed these 25,000 seats. Over 5,000 of them are going to this new

university, and I wanted to stand up and commend them.

This legislation, by being able to establish the second senate for

the University of British Columbia in the Okanagan and expand its board of

governors with local people, makes it effective for that community. The new UBC

senate will fulfil the Premier's commitment to the Okanagan. So today I would

like to congratulate the Minister of Advanced Education and the Premier for such

a great job they're doing.

K. Stewart: I have a few comments on this bill. It's a

University Act amendment. It's for the up-country universities. People might ask

why a person from Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows would get up to speak about this.

Well, for two reasons.

One is that I have a number of friends that are from other parts

of the province. Recently, as of last year, I concluded a university degree. It

was a cohort program where people came to the lower mainland from Kamloops, from

up-Island and from Victoria to attend this course. As much of an advantage as it

was for them to be able to attend a cohort program such as this, there was still

quite a burden to come down from Kamloops. I have a number of friends from

Kamloops who came down on the weekends on their own time, driving down.

Even though we have wonderful roads in this province — and I thank

the Minister of Transportation for always looking to improve that — we do have

weather conditions in Canada, especially in British Columbia when you're coming

down things like the Fraser Canyon or the Coquihalla, that even with good

maintenance make it quite tiresome to be driving that route. It's only to the

advantage of us as a province to try and encourage areas outside of the lower

mainland to have university courses and programs that will allow people to get

the training they need for their education in their hometowns.

[1545]

When I look across the province now and I think back to when I

graduated from high school, I had a couple of choices other than a university in

the United States. In British Columbia the choices were the new — at that time —

Simon Fraser University, the University of Victoria or UBC. Now students in

British Columbia have a number of choices. You know, when I was graduating,

again, I looked at the college system they had down in the States, and we didn't

have that here. Now we do.

I listened to the Leader of the Opposition and her discussions

about going over and trying to rewrite history and what was done and what wasn't

done — the debate over the facts. She indicated that British Columbia was the

highest in tuition. Stats Canada reported that. I read Stats Canada. The

indication I got was that we were somewhere in the middle and that the reason we

were even that high up was as a result of the fact that we've been putting money

back into education in the last couple of years. A couple of things I heard

too…. Again, I don't want to be sitting here trying to rewrite history. I just

want to move ahead. I want to look forward to the advantages that we have in

this province, the jurisdictions that we have outside of the lower mainland and

the capital region here in Victoria that are now very capable of producing

graduates that are going to enhance the economy of British Columbia and our

brain trust in British Columbia.

The other trend that I see — and I see, as I look out to the

future, this becoming more and more of a trend — is people with trades training

and a university degree. Now we're seeing a lot of people who have university

degrees going back to places like BCIT, but out there all across British

Columbia we have people who have trades training, skills in certain areas, and

want to get a little more educational backup to that. A degree would certainly

help them in their career planning and certainly help them in their skills

development and help us in British Columbia. Giving people that are out there in

the field working already an opportunity to gain a university degree is only

going to help us grow. I think that's something we have to look forward to. By

doing this, it enhances that for future students in British Columbia.

When I talk about students, traditionally we think of younger

people, but that's not the case anymore.

[ Page 11404 ]

Again, when I went back to university, I don't believe there was anyone under

30 in the group that I was in — pretty darn old compared to the 18- and

19-year-old students that we're used to. There's a wealth of knowledge there and

a skill set that comes with the training that people have had outside of

university training, the maturity they have from, in many cases, raising

families, living in the community, contributing to the community through

volunteer organizations and that.

I think it's great that not only are we giving an opportunity to

the young people of British Columbia to attend universities and colleges in

their hometown, but we're giving an opportunity to those of us who are a bit

older than teenagers and are going back to university — to have that attribute

available to us in our local communities. That's why I, as a person who's not

from the Okanagan, think this is a really great move. I just see it as a further

enhancement of our commitment to moving ahead with education as we need to make

the changes as we move ahead.

I also have to reflect upon the comments of the members of the

opposition where they indicated about things in the past that were free. I don't

know of too much in life that's free. Someone else might pay for it. The funding

might come from somewhere else. We might tax people for it. But you know, the

only thing I ever got free was advice, and some of it wasn't that good.

Interjection.

K. Stewart: Yeah, especially when they gave me the advice

to get into politics.

Really, this term "free" doesn't mean a lot to me, because there's

not a lot that's free. Someone was paying for it. We as British Columbians were

paying for it one way or the other. In many cases, when we put a freeze on it,

we were paying for it in a negative way, because we weren't getting the

resources to the university. We weren't able to attract the professors and the

teachers that we needed for the training, because we didn't have the funds to

pay them. All we saw with the freeze is the same thing we see when a lake

freezes: nothing. It just stays stagnant.

[1550]

Those are really the comments I had to make about that. I'm not,

again, going to sit here and kick around what happened in the last 15 or 20

years. I'm looking forward to working with a Minister of Education and a

Minister of Advanced Education that have one thing on their agenda, and that's

to put forward a better training environment and a better educational

environment for the people of British Columbia. That's what we're doing here

today, and that's what I'm proud to stand up and support.

R. Masi: It's my pleasure today to rise and support Bill

60. I would just like to comment that I'm totally impressed with the way the

Minister of Advanced Education has administered and implemented this change. You

know, it's very easy to sort of look down the list of items here, such as local

control over the academic governance of UBC Okanagan, a voice in the

administrative operations of the university as a whole, the university to

dispose of its land, more flexibility and independence in their day-to-day

operations.

It's very easy to just say: "Well, yeah, that's the way it should

be. Yeah, we'll write that in, and it's done." That's not how it's done. How

it's done is many, many hours of consultation with the university council, with

the officials at the Ministry of Advanced Education, with the push and pull of

local politicians. All these factors go together before you can make these

decisions. What an excellent result that came out of this. Again, I commend the

minister for her patience and her stick-to-it-iveness in terms of implementing

this vital change.

This bill is a vital and an essential component, I believe, that

will establish the basic concept of academic expansion throughout the province.

You know, this isn't the end of it. This is a growing province, a progressive

province, and we're going to have more people moving in. The population will

grow, and there will be a need for more advanced education.

This bill, I believe, is a breakthrough bill. It provides an

excellent framework for a vast post-secondary structure throughout this

province, and I know that the minister is very, very interested in this and very

aware of the needs of post-secondary education in the province.

You know, we talk about universities, and we talk about access,

and I was a little disappointed in the Leader of the Opposition suggesting that

all the great changes took place in the nineties. My recollection was that we

had some very, very serious problems of access in the nineties. In fact, that

was the major question that was brought forward: how to deal with it. We talk

about the freeze in tuition fees, and that's one component, but the basic

problem was that it got to the point where the average student could not enter

university. I know myself that I would have never made it in terms of the

expectations of a 95 average, or something like that, to get in.

What's to be done? I know that our minister grappled with that,

worked hard, implemented and freed up the universities to bring forward some

reasonable increases in fees, and now we're at the medium point in Canada. I

believe that the results are bearing up. Now, I hate to say that the standards

are lower, but I know that the expectations to get in are lower. The aim for a B

average, I think, is a reasonable one, and I think we'll make it. Again, I

commend the minister for that, and I'd like to support the member from Victoria

in saying very clearly that this is an important plank in our objective in

post-secondary education.

[1555]

We have a wonderful system in British Columbia, and I'm not sure….

It just grew beautifully. We have universities, university colleges and

colleges. The way they've adapted to their respective roles is absolutely

amazing.

We should be fully supportive of the fine research standards that

the universities have established. You

[ Page 11405 ]

know, research has a direct bearing on the economic health of our province.

Our major universities are going forward at a great rate to in fact develop

research facilities with the support of the provincial government, and we are

going to be the better for it.

I would have to say again that we're on the right track. As a

person that attended a small university in the interior of the province way back

when — it was called Notre Dame University of Nelson, and it has now disappeared

from the map — I certainly appreciate the move towards bringing a major

university into the Okanagan. Perhaps some day, as the population increases, we

will have further expansion under the model established, and it may well be

Simon Fraser–Nelson or something like that, but hopefully, we'll keep going

forward.

Good luck to the minister. I again commend her for her work here.

L. Mayencourt: It's a pleasure to join with my other

colleagues here on this side of the House in support of this particular bill. I

think it is important to note that members on this side of the House have made a

firm commitment to advancing the opportunities for students across British

Columbia to get a quality post-secondary education.

The Leader of the Opposition was here a few moments ago, and it

was nice of her to drop in to give us a little bit of a lecture on what was

happening on the Finance Committee last year. Well, I was on the Finance

Committee last year. I travelled with the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill, and I

heard over and over again from people who came before us that they wanted our

government to make an investment in the future of British Columbia by making an

investment in post-secondary education, and we are doing that. We are doing that

in a way that no other government in the history of British Columbia has ever

taken on a challenge. We have committed to create 25,000 new student spaces in

British Columbia by 2010.

I'm proud of that, and I don't know what Carole James and the

Leader of the Opposition have against post-secondary education or skills

development training or providing more access to students. Why in the world are

they worried about Okanagan University College and UBC Okanagan? I mean, this is

a step forward. This is a step that means kids, youth and adults in the Okanagan

will be able to get a quality education, a university degree, in their hometown.

They won't have to travel down to Vancouver and find a nice little place on

Point Grey Road. They'll be able to stay in their homes. They'll be able to stay

with their family. They'll be able to get a quality education down the street. I

think that's something to be celebrated, not criticized.

We need to be very clear that this is a very, very positive thing,

not just for the Okanagan but for all British Columbians and for the University

of British Columbia as well. Today I'm looking at a headline from the

Penticton Western News : "About 45 New Faculty Needed for UBC Okanagan." To

the Leader of the Opposition: what is wrong with increasing the number of

faculty we need at the University of British Columbia? What is wrong with

putting more people to work in British Columbia and giving them more

opportunity? I wonder.

The Leader of the Opposition rattled off a litany of scores or

rankings. "We were second in this when I was in government. We were fifth in

this when we were in government. We were seventh in this when we were in

government." Our government is not interested in being second, fifth, seventh,

eighth, ninth or tenth. We're only interested in being number one.

[H. Long in the chair.]

That's why we made this huge commitment. That's why we're

providing Okanagan University College and UBC Okanagan the opportunity to have

their own senate, to be part of the community that decides what that university

will deliver in this community and to be able to reflect the needs of the

students up there.

[1600]

I am so proud that our government has made these commitments. I am

so proud to be part of a government that is investing in tomorrow's

opportunities for youth, not just in the Okanagan but across this province.

The member from North Vancouver spoke about the wonderful things

that are happening at Vancouver Community College, which is in my riding, and

Capilano College, which is in his. There are scores and scores of other

opportunities that have been put forward by this Minister of Advanced Education

that demonstrate an unequalled, unparalleled, unprecedented belief in the future

of the students of British Columbia and in the people who deliver quality

education — the instructors, the professors, the researchers of British Columbia

— and that are designed to put us not seventh, not fifth, not third, but first

in Canada forever.

Hon. S. Bond: Well, there's nothing like having your

colleagues in the House….

Interjection.

Hon. S. Bond: To close debate? That's precisely what I

intend to do.

There's nothing like having your colleagues in the House stand up

and be passionate about what's important to British Columbians. I am very proud

to be part of a government that has a Premier that gets it and has colleagues

and MLAs that get it that post-secondary education is a great-news story. It

matters to all British Columbians. It's very disappointing that when there's

great news for students and for families in this province, the members of the

opposition can't actually stand up for once and say: "That's good for students.

And you know what? We're actually going to admit that it's good for students,

for once."

Let's just talk about what this government has done. First and

foremost, I want to correct the record.

[ Page 11406 ]

The Leader of the Opposition made a comment about compulsory fees and the

fact that British Columbia had the highest in the country. Actually, Stats

Canada had to make an apology and correct and revise those numbers because, in

fact, they made an error in their first calculations. In fact, British Columbia

is near the lowest in the country, in terms of compulsory fees. We want to make

sure that's made very clear on the record.

Secondly, I want to make it perfectly clear about the commitment

we made in the New Era document, because that's very important to

me. What we said — and I'm going to read the promise that we made — was that we

would "support the current 5 percent tuition cut and tuition freeze and fully

fund it." Do you hear the words — fully fund it? That was something that didn't

occur that frequently under the last government. We actually fully funded it in

the "current fiscal year" — that would have been the first year we became

government — and did that to offset costs to post-secondary institutions. I'm

pleased to tell you that that is precisely what we did.

Here's the second part of the commitment we made. We would consult

with educators, students and administrators on the hidden costs to students and

institutes of previous tuition freezes that were not properly funded by

government and have reduced student access and reduced course offerings. That's

exactly what we did. We held those consultations, and we looked at the impact of

what that tuition freeze did to students. We found that there were problems with

that.

Do you realize that as we look at tuition…? Let's tell the

taxpayers of British Columbia what tuition means in the post-secondary system

currently. The Leader of the Opposition was correct. We are slightly above the

Canadian average. But the taxpayers of British Columbia currently pay between 70

and 80 percent of a public post-secondary education. That's important. We

believe there must be a partnership, and absolutely we should have public

participation in that. The taxpayers of this province are already contributing

between 70 and 80 percent of the cost of a public post-secondary education.

To suggest that community colleges haven't had a role of

significance in this government's agenda is absolutely inaccurate. For the first

time in British Columbia, we gave community colleges the opportunity to offer

applied degrees, because we want students to have more opportunities closer to

home. That was one of the first pieces of legislation that we brought into this

House, because we value community colleges. In fact, the reason we're looking at

the strategic agenda that we are, with the distribution of seats and new

infrastructure all around the province, is precisely to honour and recognize the

important role that community colleges play.

Finally, I want to list a couple of things. Let's talk about

post-secondary education very quickly. You know what we've done? We've already

added 9,000 new seats to the system. The plan that we have…. [Applause.]

I want to point out that that cheer was led by the minister in

this House who once was responsible for advanced education, who I consider a

great colleague.

[1605]

In fact, we've already added 9,000 new seats, and our 25,000-seat

commitment is a six-year commitment which begins now and moves out to the year

2010. We're not counting backward; we're moving forward with 25,000 new seats.

But let's talk about this. We have a new university and a new

college in the Okanagan. We have the new Thompson Rivers University, which is

going to focus on distance and on-line learning in the province. We have added

$600 million in new funding for capital projects, and those are in campuses all

around this province. That includes Prince Rupert, Williams Lake, a training

centre in Quesnel, a new training campus in Cloverdale, new operations in

Surrey. That is great news, and it is such a shame that the Leader of the

Opposition can't stand up and say that is good for British Columbia's students

and actually have the courage to say it.

We have targeted increased seats. We're adding computer science

and electrical and computer engineering seats. For the first time in British

Columbia — let's talk about being first — we're going to train physicians

outside of the lower mainland of British Columbia. That includes in Prince

George, to serve the north, and on north Vancouver Island to make sure that we

have the doctors those communities have been looking for, for decades. We're

going to address that problem with a strategic plan that is the first of its

kind in North America.

In addition to that, we have created a leading-edge endowment fund

that is going to create research chairs that are the top research chairs not

just in British Columbia but in this country. It is going to bring the best

researchers to this province, and it is going to improve the quality of life for

British Columbians not just today but for our families and for the future.

To suggest that this bill may not be significant or weighty…. I

suggest you make that comment to the people of the Okanagan who said to us: "We

want to shape our future. We want to shape that university. We want to be able

to say what's important to us." This legislation ensures that they will have the

representation they have asked for. Perhaps in the mind of the Leader of the

Opposition this is an insignificant piece of legislation. I want you to know

that it will make a difference. It is the first time in this province we have

had an institution that will have two senates, because we want to listen to what

the people of the Okanagan said to us.

With that, I will close debate.

Motion approved.

Hon. S. Bond: I move the bill be referred to a Committee of

the Whole House to be considered at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 60, University Amendment Act, 2004, read a second time and

referred to a Committee of the Whole

[ Page 11407 ]

House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today.

Hon. B. Locke: I call committee stage of Bill 45.

[1610]

Committee of the Whole House

COMMUNITY LIVING AUTHORITY ACT

The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 45; H.

Long in the chair.

The committee met at 4:13 p.m.

section 1.

J. Kwan: On

section 1, I have some general questions, and

the questions, of course, do tie to the

definitions.

First of all, let me ask the question to the minister about the

definition of "administrative services." I see in the act that there is also a

definition called "community living support." I know those are meant to be two

distinct things. Could I get the minister to please elaborate at this time on

how the definition of administrative services differs from the definition of

community living support?

Hon. S. Hagen: The administrative services are the expenses

to keep the organization going, like lights and rent and other expenses. The

community living support is the programs that are delivered.

J. Kwan: The funding arrangement, then, for the

administrative services…. That would be, I guess, administrative support for the

services to be delivered under this new authority. Would that differ from the

current arrangement? If so, how does it differ?

[1615]

Hon. S. Hagen: The budget as it now exists will be passed

through to the board to administer. This budget we have now will be transferred

through to the board.

J. Kwan: The minister says the budget will now be

transferred to the board as it exists now. Does he mean the budget for the

administrative portion of it, or does he mean the entire budget inclusive of

what's now called community living support in terms of the services in this

delivery?

Hon. S. Hagen: The whole budget for what you mentioned.

J. Kwan: For some reason — I don't know why — I can't quite

hear the minister. Maybe it's the echo in the chamber or something. The last

part of what he said in his answer I actually didn't catch. I wonder if the

minister could repeat his answer.

Hon. S. Hagen: The whole budget as it now exists for this

particular part of the budget will be transferred through to the board.

J. Kwan: And the whole budget — would it be allocated with

line items for specific areas so that one area would be for the administrative

services and another would be for some other service, as specified? Or would it

just be, "Here's the global budget, and you do whatever you want," and inclusive

in it would be the administrative services part?

Hon. S. Hagen: The entire budget will be transferred

through, similar to how we fund the university, for instance. There will be

performance measures that we set up and outcomes that we will want delivered,

but they will have the flexibility they need to deliver the services.

J. Kwan: I'll tell you why I'm asking these questions.

There are concerns from the community with respect, particularly, to the

budgeting side of the issues, with the government's cuts to adult community

living services reaching over $50 million over the last three years and cuts to

children and family services of up to $145 million.

People with developmental disabilities and their families are

facing reduced services as well. At the same time, they're faced with longer

wait-lists. Really, some would say that there is chaos in the system — in fact,

crisis in the system — because of the many reorganizations and the restructuring

in these processes and, of course, the funding cuts.

The community living sector is concerned that it is not possible

to devolve services to the authority envisioned by this bill in the context of

these deep cuts. Many of the families are even calling on the government to put

a hold on devolution until the government is willing to provide an adequate

budget for community living services.

The government's own experts, as the minister knows, have warned

that the problems created by deep budget cuts taking place at the same time as

the service is being redesigned has created chaos in the system and that these

problems need to be resolved before moving ahead on the devolution of

governance.

On the question around budgeting, let me ask this question: how

much is being transferred to the authority?

Hon. S. Hagen: The amount being transferred is just in

excess of $600 million.

[1620]

J. Kwan: As highlighted by the community stakeholders and

as has been identified by the government's own reports, there are great concerns

with the deep budget cuts for the ministry in this area, and chaos has been

created as a result of it. How will the minister ensure that the chaos created

by this government in the community living sector has sufficiently stabilized to

move ahead on devolution? What reassurances could he give in this House on that?

Hon. S. Hagen: I can assure the member opposite that, in my

meetings with senior staff since I was ap-

[ Page 11408 ]

pointed to this job about two weeks ago, I'm very, very satisfied that senior

staff in the ministry is certainly not in chaos. They're very much on top of

things. Front-line staff, I think, does magnificent work. So I want to assure

the community living sector out there that — they know this, actually — this is

a positive thing for them. This is actually what they've been asking for. We are

actually doing what we said we were going to do from day one, which was about

three years ago.

J. Kwan: They are also saying…. They only just recently

issued a press release with this comment. Yes, this is a piece of legislation

that they've been asking for, although there will be some amendments that I'll

be putting forward, at the community's request, on this bill. They also say

unequivocally, though, that the budget cuts have impacted the services required

by members of this community and have impacted them in a very negative way.

They're calling on the government to reinstate the dollars that were taken away

from this community. They say this unequivocally.

I know that the minister is new. I know that he has only been at

the job for two weeks. I can appreciate that. I must add that that has also

created instability within the ministry and within the services that the

ministry does provide to the community — because of the constant change. That's

not the minister's fault. There are other issues much greater than that here. Of

course, the chaos that one is faced with, the responsibility of the front-line

workers or the senior bureaucrats…. I would venture to say that. I would say

that the responsibility falls on the government and that the government has

really allowed this to happen and caused some of the problems which community

members are faced with.

I want to be very clear that it is not the bureaucracy that the

criticisms were raised against previously in other meetings and in other

discussions and debates. Rather, the criticisms were directed to the government

very specifically. Nor is it targeted towards front-line workers — I want to be

very clear about that — or the people, the families, the volunteers and the many

people who have dedicated their lives to addressing these concerns.

Now, the minister says everything is fine. We heard that song and

dance, I hate to say, from the first minister. I won't use the term the "former

former minister," because that creates further confusion and chaos, I'm sure,

and we don't need more of that in this chamber. But from the first minister,

when he was first appointed to the job, we heard that song and dance. We were

told that everything was on track and everything was just fine and that, in

fact, we were on target, on budget and so on. Then lo and behold, we have

scandal after scandal, issue after issue and more and more chaos in the system.

So I'm looking for something a little bit more concrete than when

the minister says, "Don't worry; be happy. Everything is just fine," because

we've heard that before. I wonder if the minister could be more concrete in

terms of indicators of what is taking place within the ministry and the

government's direction to ensure that the chaos has been sufficiently addressed.

Hon. S. Hagen: Three and a half years ago we started

talking about the devolution of these services out into the community. That's

the plan that we've been on. There was an interim authority act that was

created. We've been following that. Now we are introducing the subsequent act.

So as I said before, we're actually on a plan, we're on target, and we are doing

what we said we were going to do three and a half years ago.

[1625]

J. Kwan: Well, the words that the minister just put on

record really do not provide any substance to the level of comfort that he would

like to assure is in fact in place. He said everything is on track and

everything is on record. We already know that this bill has been delayed many a

time, and we know that the devolution process has been delayed many a time. We

know that the community living sector folks are saying that the budget cuts are

deeply impacting the services that are required by members of the community. In

fact, they're calling on the government to reinstate the dollars, with the

surplus, for the funding cut to the Ministry of Children and Family Development.

But we haven't heard any of those reaffirmations from the government. I would

say from the people on the community side who have been negatively impacted by

the government's actions over the last three and a half years that the evidence

to show that everything is fine is lacking.

We're looking for substantive content to ensure that things have

stabilized. I hate to say it, Mr. Chair. The answer that the minister has given

has not provided the kind of reassurances that one would hope for. But maybe the

answer is going to be: "Don't worry; be happy." Maybe the answer is going to be

the same and this minister is going to tell the same line as the first minister

on this file who — when everything was off track, when everything was actually

in chaos and afoul — said: "Don't worry. Things are just fine." Maybe we will

see a repeat of the first minister's pattern here.

But how will the minister ensure that there are sufficient

budgetary resources to allow a responsible devolution to the new authority to

actually take place?

Hon. S. Hagen: We have a new assistant deputy minister in

place whose responsibility it is to be the CEO of the new board, and I'm

confident that the resources we will provide through the transfer of funds will

do what needs to be done.

J. Kwan: But at a time that the people…. You know, it is

not the deputy or any of the senior bureaucrats in terms of the issues I'm

raising here. It's a budgetary issue, which is a government decision. The

government's decision to cut some $50 million in the adult community living

services area over the last three years, $145 million to children and family

services for people with developmental disabilities and their fami-

[ Page 11409 ]

lies…. They continue to face reduced services, increasing wait-lists and so

on.

The advocates themselves say that the cuts to the services have

been too deep and that they're faced with a problem with the impacts of the

government's decision. So I raise the question to the minister that it's a

government decision — not the handling of the bureaucrats on the issue, but a

government political decision — to make these cuts, and it would be a government

political decision as to whether or not to reinstate the dollars that have been

cut from this sector. In that context, I'm asking the question: will the

minister commit today to ensure the necessary funding to provide for a

successful devolution?

Hon. S. Hagen: As I'm sure the member opposite understands,

that's a question for estimates, not for this bill. What we're debating today is

the bill for community services to establish community services British

Columbia. I'm confident that we have the resources. I don't have any way of

increasing those resources at this particular time, but I am confident we do

have the resources that will carry out the programs that need to be carried out.

J. Kwan: The bill before us deals with community living

support and the services which it provides. It deals with administrative

services which the new authority will provide under the budgets that the

minister has just put on record — about $600 million. Within that context, these

services will be provided for.

[1630]

Of course, I raised the issue around budgetary constraints because

it is tied to the new governance model. It is tied. Why is it tied? Because the

new authority will have to deliver services to the people who are in need of the

services. But without the budget to deliver the services, they would be faced

with great difficulties in trying to ensure a successful devolution process and

a successful process of ensuring that the services that are being delivered

under this act would be met by members of the community.

I appreciate that we're not dealing with estimates issues. I

appreciate that. However, the bill is dealing with services being provided to

the community, and at the end of the day, those services are tied to the dollars

that come with them. Without the dollars the services can't be delivered.

There's an intrinsic link here in terms of the money matter.

The minister, just a moment ago, said: "Don't worry. The services

will be delivered by the new authority, and we have the budget to do so." But

I'm asking a critical question of the minister, and that is: how is this

minister going to resolve the biggest problems faced by families — increased

wait-lists and service reduction — that are caused by the government's budget

cuts?

The new authority will have to deal with that. Make no mistake

about it. The new authority will have to deal with those kinds of constraints.

The new authority, with the budget constraints they are faced with, may not be

able — I assume they would not be able — to deliver the service.

All that I'm looking for, then, is this commitment from the

minister. That is, will the minister commit today to ensuring that the necessary

funding will be provided to the authority for a successful devolution?

Hon. S. Hagen: I would like to point out to the member

opposite that $600 million is not an insignificant number. I don't think anybody

in British Columbia would think that's an insignificant number.

The challenge that we've had is delivering the services as

effectively and efficiently as we can. We are convinced, as I think the

providers and the recipients out there are convinced, that we can do a better,

more efficient, more flexible job through the board than we have done through

government.

As I said previously, I'm confident that the $600 million–plus

will do the job.

J. Kwan: The minister's words are now on record. He thinks

that $600 million–plus would actually do the job. I have with me two very recent

press releases from the British Columbia Association for Community Living dated

September 28, 2004, and October 3, 2004. Both are tied to the legislation before

us. Let me just put on record some of the language here — not my language but

the language from the British Columbia Association for Community Living.

"On Monday, October 4, 2004, the B.C. government

introduces legislation to create community living B.C., a community-based

governing board that will oversee the services that support families raising

children with special needs and adults with developmental disabilities to live

and participate in their communities. Bill 45, Community Living Authority Act,

second reading."

That's the bill that we're now debating in committee stage. It goes

on to say:

"'With the legislation in place the community can finally

get on with the project of creating a service system that reflects the vision

of those who use the services, that offers more flexibility and responds to

the needs of individuals and families more creatively,' says Laney Bryenton,

executive director of the British Columbia Association for Community Living,

BCACL.

"BCACL — whose members include adults

with developmental disabilities, family members, service

providers, volunteers and advocates — has worked with other community partners

over the last three years to bring about the changes that will be formalized

with the legislation.

"' We are pleased that this le