Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 54 (36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-54

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 54-1:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 3, 1997 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political AfTiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK. Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Anhur- Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim Charleswood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. - EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P.

MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. - MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C.

TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Portage Ia Prairie

4329 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 3, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Olive Fedoriw, Bessie Paul, Trina Greeley and others requesting that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immed iately establishing a mobile screening unit fo r mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity.

Obstetrics Closure-Grace General Hospital Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Carla Redmann, Sandy Vermette and Gislene Dallaire praying that the Legislative Assembly request that the Minister of Health consider stopping the closu re of the obstetrics program at Winnipeg's Grace Hospital. Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): I beg to present the petition of Walter Gregory, Judy Moreau, Effie Didora and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health consider stopping the closure of the obstetrics program at Winnipeg's Grace Hospital.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic proportions; and

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended fo r women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman fe els she is at risk; and

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and

WHEREAS a trip to and from these centres fo r a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost fo r some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. * (13 35) Obstetrics Closure-Grace General Hospital Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

4330 LEGIS LATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Cl erk will read. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the obstetrics program has always been an important part of the Grace Hospital's mandate; and THAT both people in the community and a number of government studies have recommended against the fu rther closure of community hospitals' obstetrics programs; and THAT as a result of fe deral and provincial cuts in the hea lth budget, hospitals are being fo rced to eliminate programs in order to balance their own budgets; and THAT the closure of the Grace Hospital obstetrics ward will mean laying off 54 health care professionals, many of whom have years of experience and dedicated service in obstetrics; and THAT moving to a model where more and more births are centred in the tertiary care hospitals will be more costly and decreases the choices for women about where they can give birth.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) consider stopping the closure of the obstetrics program at Winnipeg's Grace Hospital. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the wuiersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the obstetrics program has always been an important part of the Grace Hospital's mandate; and THAT both people in the community and a number of government studies have recommen ded against the further closure of community hospitals' obstetrics program s; and THAT as a res ult of federal and provincial cuts in the health budget, hospitals are being forced to eliminate programs in order to balance their own budgets; and THAT the closure of the Grace Hospital obstetrics ward will mean laying off 54 health care profossionals, many of whom have years of experience and dedicated service in obstetrics; and THAT moving to a model where more and more births are centred in the tertiary care hospitals will be more costly and decreases the choices for women about where they can give birth .

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Health (Mr. Pra znik) consider stopping the closure of the obstetrics program at Winnipeg's Grace Hospital. * (1 340) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chair person of the Committee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member fo r La Verendrye (Mr.

Sveinson), that the report of the comm ittee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Rural -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4331 Development (Mr. Derkach), I am plea sed to table the 19 96-97 Annual Report fo r the Su rface Rights Board. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill41-The Regional Health Authorities Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable government House leader (Mr.

McCrae), that leave be given to introduce Bill 41, The Regional Health Authorities Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifia nt Ia Loi concernant les offices regionaux de la sante et modifi cations correlatives, and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I am pleased to table at this time, as well, a copy of the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. Bill 48- The Child and Family Services Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Spea ker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gill eshammer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 48, The Child and Family Services Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les services a I' enfant et a Ia fam ille et modifi cations correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 49- The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1997 Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that leave be given to introduce Bill 49, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 97 (Loi de 19 97 modifia nt diverses dispositions legislatives en matiere de fiscalite) and that the same be now received and read a first time.

His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to ta ble the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. Bill 53-The Local Authorities Election Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that leave be given to introduce Bill 53, The Local Authorities Election Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifia nt Ia

Loi sur !'election des autorites locales et modifications correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 54-The Animal Husbandry Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik), that leave be given to introduce Bill 54, The Animal Husbandry Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modif iant la

Loi sur l'elevage et modifications correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 55-The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Af fairs (Mr. Radclif fe), that leave be given to introduce Bill 55, The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'Hydro-Manitoba), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I am also ple ased to table the Lieutenant Governor's message.

4332 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 Motion agreed to. *

(1345) Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty seven Grade 5 students from the Lord Roberts Community School under the direction of Mrs. Terry Welch. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member fo r Osborne (Ms. McGif fo rd). We also have twenty Grade II students from Gordon Bell High School under the direction of Ms. Anne Monk. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member fo r Wolseley (Ms. Friesen).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Telecom Services Ownership Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Spea ker, my question is to the acting Acting Premier. Media reports last week confirmed questions that we have been raising in this House that over the last five months the control of the Manitoba Telephone System through stock sales is slipp ing from the ownership of Manitobans.

I would like to ask the Acting Premier or the minister responsible fo r telecommun ications: What is the present percentage of shares owned by Manitobans, and do they meet the test of the alleged promise that was made a year ago? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I guess the minister responsible fo r telecommunications. Madam Speaker, Manitobans very vigorously bought MTS shares when they were off ered. Manitobans also have the right, any shareholder has the right to do what they want to do with their shares.

I am very pleased to see that the share value ofMTS has held very, very well since the shares were issued so that Manitobans have a very good investment and that Manitoba Telephone System is doing exceedingly well in the telecommu nications competitive marketplace. Mr. Doer: The minister did not answer the question. Last year the minister, when he made his announcement, said that he and the government wiii ensure that decisions continue to be made in Manitoba by Manitobans fo r Manitobans.

I would like to ask the minister: How is he going to ensure that this phone system continues to be owned by Manitoba shareholders, consistent with his promise, or was that just another promise like the promise they made in the last election campaign that they would not sell the Manitoba Telephone System? Mr. Findlay: When the bill was introduced, it was identified in the bill that the majority of the board of directors would be Manitobans, and they are, currently are, and after the annual meeting they still are. But the shares went on the marketplace, and people have the right to do what they want to do.

It does not preclude Manitobans from buying more shares than they currently own today. The actual amount the member wants to know, I do not have that information at my fingertips. It may be available; it may not be. Mr. Doer: The government, in Hansard, the Premier (Mr. Filmon), in Hansard, the Minister responsible fo r Telephones, in Hansard, said that they would ensure, they would guarantee that the telephone system was owned by Manitobans fo r Manitobans.

How can we trust this government to deal with the Manitoba Telephone System when they have no way of keeping their promise that they made last year; they have no way of keeping their promise that they made in the election campaign, and why should anybody trust this government in dealing with Manitoba Hydro after all the betrayals we had from this government on the Manitoba Telephone System? Mr. Findlay: We said that the shares would be made-the majo rity of them-available to Manitobans, and Manitobans purchased those shares to the tune of over 70 percent. When the shares were listed, they - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4333 were oversubscribed by Manitobans, and the issue of the board of directors still remains in place as the bill described. * (135 0) Orthotic/Prosthetic Services User Fees Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, last Thursday in this Chamber we tabled two letters from outside organizations discussing the government's unilateral decision to charge user fe es in the sum of $400,000 on the backs of individuals who need to purchase, fo r their health reasons, orthotic devices.

Like so many issues in health, be it Connie Curran under the previous minister, the home care privatization under the most immediate predecessor and now this issue, this issue came right out of nowhere, a $400,000 saving on the backs of suf ferers. My question to the Minister of Hea lth is-he had a dif fe rent version in the House last week from what he said in the hallway. Can the minister specifically outline what the government's plans are fo r the $400,000 clawback, the 400 penalty and tax on users of these devices? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): On this particular issue, I certainly appreciate the concerns that were expressed by several of the organizations that were spoken to about the matter, and I appreciate the need, I think, to have consistency, transparency and equity in many of the things we do. I think when you look at the whole area-whether it be devices or whether it be Pharrnacare or other services or products that the public provides fo r, or support fo r individuals in their health needs-we have not had in Manitoba, going back to the 19 70s, a truly consistent approach.

One thing I would hope that we can accomplish is a consistent approach, and that may require more work on the part of the ministry to do that. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, is the minister saying in his comments that the government is not going to impose a $400,000 penalty, be it in the fo rm of a deterrent fe e or a user fe e or a tax on the individuals who require these devices for necessary medical needs? Mr. Praznik: Madam Spea ker, the context in which this issue arises is one, just to put it in perspective, of the fa ct that we have had some very significant reductions in transfer payments.

I am not trying to get into that issue today, but it is a reality. When you get into those realities, you are often forced to look at ways of making programs more aff ordable, obviously, to within the budget process and to also look at where you rank compared to other provinces. That was done during our budget process. One of the observations I make today is the inconsistencies that have been in our provision of those services over 30 years. We have had a response back from our consultation; we have had a proposal. I am in the process now with my collea gue the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson).

We will shortly be looking at this whole area, because I think the criticisms that the member opposite offers and others have of fered, particularly with respect to inconsistencies in the way we do things, are certainly valid, but they have been. there for 30 years and they are in need of some work, Madam Speaker, and we intend to look at them. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, this question could be fo r the Minister of Finance or the Minister of Health.

How do you justify, in this budget, taking a program of $2.6 million of necessary medical devices to individuals, some of whom could not walk or move without these devices, and take $400,000 off that budget and still say they are not tax increases, still say you do not charge user fe es? How does the Minister of Health or Finance even get to the starting gate on that kind of a proposal and talk about transparency and talk about being fa ir to the people of Manitoba? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, the way one even gets to consider these types of issues is to put them in the context of the fact that our health budget, indeed our provincial budget in this area, has been generally under increasing pressure over the last number of years because of reduced fe deral commitment. We have had to make that up. There are a lot of pressures on the department.

If you look at the area of physician remuneration, fo r one, currently, and other areas, all of them lead ultimately in that environment to looking at ways to ensure that you are delivering programs in a cost-eff ective and, I think, equal basis to what is happening across the country. In that particular area, in

4334 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 most other jurisdictions it is my understanding that there is a co-payment or deductible, and that is the logic behind having us in line with what is happening across the country. In going out and having some consultation, some of these issues were flagged, and as I have committed, I want to spend some time with the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board on looking at this whole area to ensure that we have a consistent approach. We do have now, Madam Speaker, deductibles and co-payments in areas like Pharmacare.

So there is a principle there, and it is not unreasonable to see how this would happen. * (1 355) Brandon General Hospital Emergency Services Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I, too, have a question for the Minister of Health. There is no regular emergency service medical staff available at the Brandon General Hospital, and beginning June 30, fam ily doctors in the Brandon area will no longer provide emergency services on an ad hoc basis except fo r their own patients, mainly because of an acute shortage of doctors and unmanageable workloads.

Will the minister review this situation and ensure that the Brandon General Hospital is funded adequately to enable that facility to offer 24-hour, seven-day-a-week emergency service? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): The member flags an issue of emergency service not just in Brandon but across rural Manitoba and, indeed, even including Winnipeg. His suggestion in the House today about adequate funding fo r Brandon, I think, I would not accept that necessarily as the answer.

I explain why, Madam Spea ker-because, quite frankly, across the province we have very diff erent ways of funding emergency physicians and services providing that emergency service in our rural hospitals. One thing that we are very comm itted to is getting an equitable transparent system in place fo r emergency across the province. We have brought together the Manitoba Medical Assoc iation, the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the regional health authorities. We did that two months ago. We are involved in a 90-day process considering options.

I am pleased to report that that seems to be going well, and I am hoping by the end of June we will have the framework fo r a province-wide solution that is transparent and equitable. Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, by way of clarification-! am not cle ar-is the minister telling us that he cannot or will not give a firm commitment to provide the money to the Brandon General Hospital that was previously pulled out by his department so that Brandon General Hospital, which is the only m�or hospital between Regina and Winnipeg, will of fe r emergency service on a 24-hour basis, seven days a week? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, what I am saying to the member fo r Brandon East is certainly, we want to have a seven-day-a-week, 24-hour emergency service in Brandon. It makes perfect sense, but the way in which we approach this is not to ad hoc each facility. I can assure the member that the way in which emergency coverage is now provided in a variety of hospitals across this province is one that is developed in an ad hoc fashion over 20 years or more. What we are finding is that each fac ility looks at the other to see who has what arrangement. Madam Speaker, that is why I think we have such discontent.

So we have brought all of the stakeholders together, the parties together, and we are working on a model that will have building blocks that are tran sparent, that every physician can know what they are being paid fo r, that are equitable, and I think will give us a long-term sol ution that will apply right across the province, including the city of Brandon. Physician Resources Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): On a related question: Will the minister review the doctor shortage in Brandon, which is having a negative impact on the Brandon General Hospital, and ensure that more doctors are available in Brandon so that the Brandon General Hospital's role as a regional hospital will be protected? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member and I, and I know the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), all agree--I think it makes only common sense that the Brandon hospital is truly a - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 4335 regional facility. It is the largest one in western Manitoba, and that is why, in fact, on the Brandon health authority there will be a cross-appointment from both neighbouring regional health authorities, because we appreciate that significance. I can tell him on emergency services and doctor recruitment, the key, in my opinion, to coming to a successful conclusion is to have appropriate transparent and equitable tools for our regional health authorities to be able to recruit the physicians they need. An Honourable Member: Transparent? Mr.

Praznik: Ask me a question; I will explain it more. * (1 400) Public Housing Federal Funding Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Spea ker, I have been raising concerns about the fe deral Liberal government's cuts and offloading of social housing to the provinces, and the increases in poverty, urban decline and eventually homelessness. I have a letter from the fe deral minister for housing dated March 7, '96, which says, and I quote: Incremental savings in social housing expenditures amount to $7 milli on in '97-98 and $15 2.8 million in '98-99 will be achieved.

These reductions will come from ef ficiencies anticipated in these years. I want to ask the Minister of Housing if he can confirm if that actually-in plain English-means a cut, and how that cut of $15 2 million will affe ct Manitoba. Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, the member raises a very interesting situation, because the correspondence that she was referring to is a letter that was sent by the minister of housing, Darlene Marleau, I believe it was. I think she is still the minister. Anyway, the member is reading it correctly.

These are indications of perceived cuts by the fe deral government in their downloading and of floading of social housing onto the provinces. On top of that number that she has indicated, there is also a number of, I believe it is somewhere around $240 million that the fe deral government has also cut from the social housing program across Canada. It does have an impact here in Manitoba as we have to adjust our Housing portfolio in the expenditure line to compensate fo r the cutbacks by the Liberal government down in Ottawa. The member is correct in her assumptions. Ms.

Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I wanted the Minister of Housing to tell us how this $1 52-million cut in the next fiscal budget will aff ect Manitoba in dolla r figures, but given the fact that the Liberals may have more inclination now to listen to how their cuts are aff ecting social programs in the provinces, I want to ask the Minister of Housing will he now contact the new minister for housing for the Government of Canada and tell him that these cuts to social housing aff ecting Manitoba must stop and must be reconsidered. Mr.

Reimer: I look fo rward to working with the new minister of housing, whether it is a him or a her. It depends on what Mr. Chretien does with his new cabinet. However, that is one of the items that we will be bringing up. There is a tentatively scheduled housing meeting sometime in this late fa ll. It was scheduled. I hope it is still on the fe deral government's agenda to pursue this meeting of Housing ministers. That is something that would be brought up, in all likelihood, because of our concerns to the cutbacks.

I look forward to working with the fe deral government in trying to achieve our goals with social housing and to try to stop this hemorrhaging of their responsibilities and their transfers of funding through the social envelope to this government. Ms. Cerilli: Given that this letter from the previous housing minister also says that the of floading of housing to the provinces is optional, I am wondering if the minister can tell the House: When is he going to decide to accept this of fe r or not, and what are the conditions in Manitoba fo r accepting the of fe r to take over the CMHC social housing portfolio? Mr.

Reimer: Madam Speaker, I am sure the member recognized that with the fe deral election now behind us as of yesterday, everything was on hold fo r the last approximately a month to six weeks. At that time, we were in negotiations with the fe deral government in their downloading proposition. I can tell her that a meeting has been convened on senior management

4336 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 level. In fact, I believe it is within the next week or two weeks that officials from right across Canada on a senior management level will be getting together to discuss the tentative arrangements or possibly tentative agenda for future meetings between the federal government and the provincial government Housing ministers as to how this will unfold. As for Manitoba, we are still in the process of trying to evaluate their program. We were not able to do a proper analysis because of the interruption of the federal election.

Now that that has stopped, I am sure we will be able to get back to the bargaining table. Federal Transfer Payments Minimum Cash Payments Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Last week I asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) about the transfer payments and what his position was with respect to the tax points versus the cash transfers.

Given that last week we had a Western Premiers Conference, over the summer we are going to be having a Premiers' conference, it is important that Manitobans have an idea in terms of what direction ultimately this government wants to take health care. My question to the Minister of Finance: Is the government's position that there has to be some sort of a cash flow coming from Ottawa, that tax point transfers are not acceptable, that the province will advocate in Premiers' conferences, in First Ministers' Conferences for a minimum base cash transfer? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I think, Madam Speaker, what is most important of all with this issue is that the federal government stop any further reductions in funding for health, education and support to families, whether it is in cash or whether it is in transfer of tax points, that there be no further reductions on the heels of what had been 35 percent reductions from the current federal Liberal government-in the case of Manitoba, some $240 million.

When it comes to the issue of cash or tax points, there are advantages to tax points if they are fully equalized tax points, that there is an adjustment that fully equalizes the tax points, because a tax point is worth a different amount in each province across Canada.

So the one advantage of tax points, if they are equalized, it does give more autonomy and more certainty to provinces, but at the end of the day what we are looking for, first and foremost, is a firm commitment from this federal Liberal government to not further reduce funding for health and post secondary education and to do everything that they can to start enhancing funding in those areas as they start to work toward a balanced budget here in Canada. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I believe that the commitment is there.

The question specific to the Minister of Finance is: What is this government's commitment toward arguing and advocating for cash transfers, not tax points? Cash transfers are what are going to protect medicare across this land, not tax points. What is this government's position? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, what is going to protect transfers is an ironclad commitment from the federal government, whether it is cash or whether it is transfers.

Again, we have just gone through three years in Canada where the current federal government has reduced funding for those very important areas, the most important areas for all citizens of Canada, health and post-secondary education. They have reduced funding by 35 percent when they have reduced all of their other expenses by about 6 percent. Those are absolutely the wrong priorities. They do not reflect the priorities of Manitobans, they do not reflect the priorities of Canadians, and they certainly do not reflect the priorities ofthis provincial government. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, is the Minister of Finance saying that, on behalf of this government, they no longer favour cash transfers, that they would be inclined to accept tax point transfers? If in fact that is the position of this government, the government is wrong. They are not protecting the interests of Manitobans. We ask that they look at the cash transfers and advocating- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the advantage of the transfer of fully equalized tax points is that then shifts that tax responsibility to the province so that the province gets that revenue directly from the taxpayers of Manitoba and from Canada, thereby not having to - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4337 depend on the whims of the federal government. I think there should be cause for concern of all Canadians based on the past practices of this federal government that has just reduced funding across Canada by some $7 billion, some 35 percent in the case of Manitoba in the last three years, $240 million, so certainly tax points can give you more certainty and more autonomy.

But having said all of that, the most important thing at the end of the day is that the federal government lives up to their responsibility and their commitment to provide appropriate funding for health and post-secondary education and support for families, and we will be sure that they do that. Education System Standards Testing Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

In my constituency, families have lined up at four in the morning to ensure that their children are placed in alternative education programs, a flexible education program represented in 12 Manitoba schools which depends on a high level of parental participation, multi age classrooms and an atmosphere of co-operation. It is a situation which any Minister of Education, teacher, trustee, or parent ought to be applauding.

I would like to ask why the Minister of Education has rejected the appeals of those parents to continue their program as they and their trustees have chosen without the intrusion of standard exams that they believe to be inapplicable to their philosophy. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I do indeed very much appreciate the alternative programs that schools are able to have in Manitoba and that school divisions are able to provide for students that parents, again, can have choices in the kinds of learning experiences their children have.

I think that is extremely important, and I am pleased that parents are generally happy with the kinds of alternative education they have chosen, or their regular programming. Certainly they should have the learning experience that they prefer. But they should also have the right to be assessed, and pausing at year end to have a simple standards test to assess that learning has taken place and that standards of achievement have been met, does in no way whatsoever interfere with the alternative learning and teaching experience. * (1410 ) Ms.

Friesen: When she is faced with two conflicting principles, that, on the one hand, this is a government which believes that standard tests are the only legitimate form of assessment, and on the other hand, this is a government which listens to parents, could she explain why, when faced with that conflict, it is the views of parents which are tossed out of the window? They have no choice, and they do not have the philosophy they have applied for. Mrs. Mcintosh: First of all, I really do not like to have to keep correcting

preambles or denying

preambles because it wastes question-and-answer time, but I at the same time cannot allow certain things to be on the record. There is no way at any time that anybody in this government has ever said that standards test are the only method of assessment. The member is dead wrong when she says that, but standards tests are an extremely important method of assessment. Standards tests have been put in place for a variety of reasons. First of all, this is happening not just in Manitoba but in Saskatchewan, British Columbia, all of the other provinces in Canada, North America and, indeed, internationally.

This is what is happening in education, and we do have to have standards that are measured. That is a very important part and parcel of learning, but they in no way interrupt any particular form of learning or any particular style of teaching. They simply assess at the end of the experience how much has been absorbed and how much can be applied. Ms.

Friesen: Could the minister tell us why she believes it fair that 20 percent of Manitoba students do not have to write the exams because of reasons of weather, but all of those who do write, in fact, can choose whether their marks should count or not, when all the children in alternative programs are required to submit to the government's rigid ideology of standards testing over the express wishes of their parents? Why is that fair?

4338 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 Mrs. Mcintosh: I have indicated that standards tests have been brought back into the learning experience after 20 years absence because it is a worldwide trend for a variety of extremely good-it is extremely good research which has shown what the absence of those tests has done. I invite the member to ask me in Estimates today about the research into standards tests and why they are needed. I also indicate, Madam Speaker, that here in Manitoba standards tests were brought in at the express request of parents.

We had two parents forums, 500 parents, first come, first served. The overwhelming direction that came from those and from other sources-but if she is talking specifically parents, the No. 1 item that parents asked for in both of those, parents from right across the province, not specially chosen parents-the No. 1 thing they requested was a measurable standard. The member I think would do well-and I hope she will ask me for the detail into the research there. I have to say, Madam Speaker, we have a policy for exemptions that is applied universally in the province.

That policy for exemptions is what is being applied this spring in Manitoba. Capital Funds Reporting Process Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Through Vision Capital and through the Manitoba capital corporation and other forms of investment in capital, Manitobans, either directly through their government or through groups like the Workers Compensation Board, MPIC and other government-controlled entities, have somewhat over $20 million or $25 million invested in a number of Manitoba companies.

Can the Minister of Finance tell the House whether he is satisfied that the accounting for these investments and the results of the investments are well and adequately known to Manitobans? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, the member is generally correct. There are a few capital funds in Manitoba. In fact, if we go back to the task force on capital markets done in Manitoba about three years ago, it pointed out that one of the greatest needs for business opportunities, businesses to expand is access to capital. So today we do have Vision Capital; we do have the Manitoba Capital Fund.

There is an initiative like the Crocus Fund here in Manitoba and so on. Certainly, collectively, they are doing a very good job of meeting the needs in terms of access to capital, all in different ways. In terms of the information, I believe certainly the information is provided in various cases to the ministers responsible.

I encourage the member to ask the various ministers responsible during the Estimates process or directly to their offices for any information, but I am certainly satisfied with the reporting relationship back to government and the information that is provided back to government in terms of those capital funds. Mr.

Sale: Can the minister tell the House where in Public Accounts we might find a list of those companies in which investments have been made by the various capital funds in which Manitoba is a partner, what the value of those investments is and the number that has been written off, the companies that have failed, the companies that have succeeded, Madam Speaker? Could he direct us to a source of that information? Mr. Stefanson: I can certainly direct the member to various departments that are responsible.

For example, the Vision Capital Fund-the department responsible is the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism. They have recently been in Estimates. I believe the member for Crescentwood participated in that Estimates process. I believe he asked the minister responsible for some information in these various areas. My understanding is the minister is certainly providing everything that he is capable of providing, recognizing in many cases there are areas of third-party confidentiality that have to be protected. Mr. Sale: The minister did not answer my question. will put it again, Madam Speaker.

Could the minister point out what source in Public Accounts, Volume 4, Volume 2? Where in Public Accounts or in any public record for which the minister is responsible could Manitobans who are interested in finding out the fate of the capital dollars which they have invested over the - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 4339 last number of years through these various mechanisms, where could a member of the public go and find the names of those companies, successful and unsuccessful? That is the question, not the question of I, T and T. Mr. Stefanson: The funding through Public Accounts will be reflected in the department that is responsible fo r the individual program. In the case of Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism, the funding for Vision Capital will be reflected as part of their expenditures through the Public Accounts.

Again, the member had an opportunity during the Estimates process to ask questions about various entities. I am led to believe that in some cases there is some information that cannot be provided fo r reasons that I have already indicated as it relates to third-party confidentiality and so on.

Our objective throughout all of this process is to provide as comprehensive information as we possibly can, and when you look at our detailed Estimates process, when you look at our Public Accounts, when you look at our annual reports, colle ctively we provide a great deal of inf ormation to this Legislature and to the taxpayers of Manitoba. I would suggest we provide as much, if not more, information than most provincial governments in Canada. Disaster Assistance Agricultural Losses Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Prior to and during the fe deral electi on, we heard all kinds of announcements of compensation for flood victims and, in particular, compensation for farmers. However, it is very disappointing to learn that, although there have been many announcements, the discussions for assistance to farmers have reached an impasse. Can the Minister of Agriculture indicate what the problems are and when farmers can expect to learn the details of the compensation package ? Hon.

Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Allow me to indicate to all members of the House that farmers in the province of Manitoba are receiving a very generous level of support. When I say that, I compl iment the coll eagues that I have in my government, and my Premier (Mr. Filmon). We quickly upped the limits from the $30 ,000 to the $1 00,000 for every farm home. In addition to that, an additional $1 00,000 program to help with the damages to property, farm property, machinery, to help restore the farm yard.

In addition to that, there is some further support for the loss of productivity and income through the Western Diversification Program. Madam Spea ker, a great deal of support is being provided to those farmers in need. What my Premier and what my government have said, and what we continue to be at some loggerheads about, that, fo r the unseeded acreage program, it has to be province-wide. We have recognized and we recognize today that there are other areas of the province that are troubled with getting crop in the ground as a result of high waters, and it has to be province-wide.

That is the area of dif ference, and my hope is that that will be concluded shortly. Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Spea ker, can the minister who is well aware that the farmers in the Assiniboine Vall ey, Swan River farmers and farmers around the Interlake who have been aff ected by previous floods also fe el that they should be compensated, as are the farmers who are aff ected by the 19 97 flood in the Red River Valley--can he indicate why his government has not raised with the federal government the need to have a retroactive compensation fo r those farmers as well?

Why has that proposal not been put on the table fo r discussion? Mr. Eons: Madam Speaker, I need not be reminded of the fa ct that, yes, there were farmers who were in difficulty just a fe w years ago, particularly in the upper Assiniboine, and certainly I am aware that with some justification they are carefully monitoring what is being of fered to farmers in 19 97. That is precisely why we insist that it be province-wide. We cannot go back retroactively, but we can at least recognize their difficulties that they may face in the future.

I am satisfied that now that the election is over fe deral officials and provincial officials will hastily come to an agreement on this. * (14 20) Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Spea ker, can the minister indicate what the impl ications on Manitoba Crop

4340 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 Insurance will be for farmers who have already bought the unseeded acreage insurance? Are those farmers going to have their premiums repaid or are they going to be double compensated, since they bought insurance already and now there is a fe deral package being off ered? Can the minister indicate what will happen to those farmers? Is it double compensation, or are they going to be punished fo r having purchased insurance? Mr.

Eons: Well, Madam Speaker, the honourable member raises the very question about why, on an issue like crop insurance, on an issue like farm policy of this kind, one ought really not to dabble with the game of politics as the federal minister, Minister Goodale, quite frankly, did in this instance. [interjection] No, the people who bought crop insurance, their contracts will be honoured, or else I may as well throw out my crop insurance program.

Secondly-and I thank Providence and the good Lord that we are getting the kind of weather we are getting-every day, as I speak, thousands of acres are being seeded, and it was far too early to jump into the fray to talk about an unseeded acreage insurance program back when the waters were just beginning to rise. I believe, Madam Speaker, that the largest amount of acres in the Red River Valley-unbelievable as it is to us who saw those raging waters over that land-that land will, in fact, be seeded. Arizona Fitness Closure Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Sp eaker, my question is to the Minister of Consumer Af f airs. The minister will recall that the issue of fitness clubs selling long-term memberships is not a new one. In fact, we introduced Bill 26 in 19 88 to limit such selling, and this government itself, under pressure tightened the rules in 19 90. Given the recent closu re of the Arizona Fitness club, leaving some consumers out as much as 10 months or more in membership fe es, could the minister tell the House when this government learned of the impending closure and what actions they took? Hon.

Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I will take the actual date as notice and get back to my honourable collea gue with that information. I can tell my honourable collea gue and you, Madam Speaker, that in fact the Consumers' Bureau has been investigating the owner of the fitness club and the business's practices under the Consumers' Bureau, and if there is any determination that any fraud has been committed, appropriate action will be taken. Fitness Clubs Long-Term Memberships Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, since the sale of the memberships is supposed to be no fe wer than two payments fo r a year, something that was violated in at least one case in this case, could the minister tell the House how often the department checks the sales operations of these clubs? Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, the Consumers' Bureau deals on a complai nt-driven basis, and if the particular constituent to whom my honourable coll eague is making reference wishes to supply some information to the department, then the appropriate action would be taken.

Consumer Protection Legislation Enforcement Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask this minister: How and when will this minister start making it clear to businesses in this province that consumer protection laws that currently exist will be enforced so that scams such as occurred at the Arizona Fitness club will not be repeated? Hon.

Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would state in this Chamber that one must be very, very careful not to make any undue conclusions or unjust conclusions that there have been any misdeeds or inappropriate action until there has been a suitable inquiry and a determination by the appropriate of ficials of our government. To jump to a conclusion today and to make reckless charges would be very inappropriate of any member of this constituent Assembly. So I would urge that we allow due process to occur bef ore any conclusions be reached.

Madam Speaker: Time fo r Oral Questions has expired. - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4341 NONPOLITICAL STATEMENT Music Fest 1997 Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Spea ker, do I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek have leave? [agreed] Mr. McAlpine: Madam Spea ker, it is my pleasure to rise in the House this afternoon and tell my collea gues about the success that two schools in the constituency of Sturgeon Creek had at a national music fe stival.

Si lver Heights Colleg iate and Golden Gate Middle School were invited to participate in a national music competition called Music Fest 19 97 in Hull, Quebec. The competition was held on May 21 to May 25. Several bands from Silver Heights Coll egiate won in their competition categories. The Symphonic band won a gold medal. The Seniors 3 and 4 jazz band also won gold in their category. The Senior 2 jazz band won a silver medal, and the Senior 1 concert band also walked away with silver. The Senior 1 jazz band won gold.

Golden Gate Middle School was equally successful in competitions at the fe stival and the school's Gator band won a gold medal and Golden Gate Grade 8 jazz band also won gold. I would like to ask all members of this Legislature to join me in congratulating all the students and teachers who participated in this music fe stival. Their success at the national competition is truly admirable and brings pride to all Manitobans. Thank you, Madam Spea ker. ORDERS OF THE DA Y House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speak er, there may be a disposition to waive private members' hour today.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to waive private members' hour today? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Maje sty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates ofthe Department of Family Services. When the commit tee last sat, it had been considering item 3.(d)( 1) Residential Care Licensing on page 53 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Bef ore we finish this line, I wonder if the minister has answers to any of the questions that were outstanding from previous days fo rme? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I have a copy and copies that I will table of the memorandum of agreement between the government and the Manitoba Funeral Services Association, and I guess there were some questions on the grants and what changes there were. * (14 40) I will read the changes, the increases or decreases or elimination. The Canadian Institute fo r Advanced Research is no longer receiving a grant. It was the end of a commitment. The Vanier Institute is a new grant, $1 5,000. That is a three-year commitment; $1 5,000 a year for three years.

Winnipeg Child and Family Servic es, you can see there is a significant increase, $0.4 milli on. Child and Family Services of Ce ntral Manitoba, there is an increase of $34,000; Child and Family Services of Western Manitoba, an increase of 79.3 thousand. Jewish Child and Family Services had a reduction of 4 7.9 thousand. Part of that grant was

4342 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 converted to a per diem, therefore the change. Churchill Health Centre, a decrease of 62.4, and it was the same thing, a conversion to a per diem for part of the grant. Ndinawemaaganag, that is a new grant of $2 1 2,000. The Family Centre of Winnipeg got an increase of $42,000; Marymound, an increase of 4.6 thousand. The Inner City Review Committee, that is a new grant, 6.3. Women's Shelter saw a decrease of 598,000. Facility grants were transferred to the Department of Housing, and they are being funded at the same rate through the Department of Housing.

L'Entre-Temps, an increase of 7,000; Lakeshore Women's Resource Centre, an increase of 5.3; Pluri elles, an increase of 12 .3 thousand; Native Women's Transition Centre 7,000. Day Care Centres and Homes had an increase of 12 9,000, primarily fo r children with disabilities. Was there anything else outstanding? Mr. Martindale: I think I had asked the minister fo r the percentages of welf are fraud compared to the case load. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we do not have that at our fingertips. I will endeavour to get it and put it on the record bef ore the end of today if possible. Mr.

Martindale: Going back to the line that we are supposed to be on. I have had concerns raised with me, and so has the member fo r Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), regarding Alho Guest Home, which is licensed under the licensing branch of this department, and the member fo r Wolseley wrote to the minister on May 10, 19 96. So the compla ints have been going on there fo r a long time. I am wondering if the minister can provide us with an update on whether or not they are meeting current orders and licensing requirements and whether there is any change planned in their status.

I understand they might be wanting to not be licensed anymore. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, indeed, they are not licensed anymore. Their licence has been pulled, and I think the 16 residents that were there have fo und alternate locations. It really was a mental health facility licensed through our residential licensing branch, but it has in fact been shut down and the licence is no longer in place. Mr. Martindale: Is it possible that the same operator could continue to operate with the same kind of clients but have them live in a rooming house licensed by the City of Winnipeg? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I am advised that he could run a rooming house, I suppose, subject to rezoning by the City of Winnipeg, but in fact he could not deliver the kinds of services he was delivering to the kinds of clients that were residing there. Mr. Martindale: I just have a couple of questions about the Vulnerable Persons' Commissioner. Can the minister tell me how many substitute decision makers have been appointed? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, a total of 30 substitute decision makers have been appointed to date. Mr.

Martindale: Does the minister have a breakdown as to how many of those are individuals who were under an order of supervision and how many who have never been under an order? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there were eight applications fo r persons without an order of supervision. Three of those are still in process, one was dismissed, three were withdrawn, and one substitute decision maker was appointed. Mr. Martindale: Under subappropriation 9.3(

e) one of the expected results is to review and assess approximately 500 orders of supervision under The Mental Health Act. Can the minister tell me if that goal will be met? I guess this is in the coming fiscal year. Do you expect that the Vulnerable Persons' Commissioner will review 500 orders of supervision? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me how many staff there are who are employed by Family Services working with individuals under the VRDP funding? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there are 20 employees that are cost-shared on a full-time basis, and - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 4343 there might be a fe w others, where part of their job is related to VRDP, which would be able to be claimed. Mr. Martindale: How many individuals are those staff working with in total? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we provide direct service to about 600 individuals through our Regional Operations in the department, and there are another 400 that are served through three diffe rent agencies that we give some support to: SMD, CPA and CNIB. * (14 50) Mr.

Martindale: Could the minister tell me if those 20 staff are primarily involved in finding employment, including support of empl oyment, and in job coaching? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is the mix of tasks that staff have to undertake. Part of it is job finding, but they also provide counselling, individual training plans, and help them to access training support dollars. So it is mixture of those kinds of activities. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me how many jo bs these 20 staff found fo r their clients in the last year? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, we do not have good statistics or data, but all indications are that about 50 percent of the clients that are worked with are in employment of some kind. Whether in fact all of those individuals are as a result of our staff finding jobs fo r them or whether they find jobs on their own, we do not have that kind of information, but some, I guess, we do not have hard data. Our guess is that about 50 percent of those that are served do find jobs. Mr.

Martindale: Could the minister tell me how this compa res with organizations like Sturgeon Creek Enterprises and local ACL groups in terms of finding employment? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, the functions of our department versus Sturgeon Creek Enterprises and those agencies are not quite the same. What we do is the counselling, the individual training plans and helping them access training dolla rs. What they do through Sturgeon Creek is direct supporte? employ�ent placements, and they perfo rm job coachmg functtans. So they are slightly dif ferent. Mr.

Martindale: When your staff find the training dollars, do they go to organizations like Sturgeon Creek Enterprises? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, the department and the staff within the department deal with dif fe rent types of individuals, so they are not all qui_te th� s� e. Sturgeon Creek Enterprises would deal pnmartly With those who have mental disabilities. SMD and CPA might deal with those who have physical disabilities. In the department, we deal a lot with individuals who have mental and psychiatric disabilities. So the roles are a little dif fe rent.

We may use Sturgeon Creek Enterprises, and we may not. I guess it just depends on the individual, the circumstances, and the needs of that individual. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me if the department sets goals for the number of people whom you would like to find jobs for in any given year, since we know that peop le with disabilities are vastly underemployed, many of whom want to work but find themselves on social assistance? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, in the past, we have not necessarily monitored or set goals or followed measured outcomes.

As a result of the ongoing work with the fe deral government and in consultation with the disability community, those will be the kinds of things that we will be doing. We will be fo cusing on working with those in the community that we know want to work and setting some goals and some objectives and doing some fo llo w-through to see how many individuals actually get into emplo yment and keep their jobs or how many come out of the labour market. So that is part of the process that is ongoing right now with the fe deral government and the disability community. * (1 500) Mr. Chairperson: Item 9.3.

Community Living (

d) Residential Care Licensing

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $259,200 --pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $33,500--pass.

4344 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 9.3. (

e) Of fice of the Vulnerable Persons' Commi ssioner

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $220,500-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $244,000-pass. Resolution 9.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Maje sty a sum not exceeding $1 06,865,700 fo r Family Setvices, Community Living, $1 06,865,700 fo r the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 98. Continuing on with Resolution 9.4 Child and Family Setvices (

a) Child and Family Support (

I) Child, Family and Commu nity Development (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,295,700. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I have in front of me a letter from Keith Black, board member of Winnipeg Child and Family Setvices, dated October I, 19 96. The main reason that he wrote this letter was to inform the staff of his resignation and to thank them fo r their work. In this letter he said, and I quote: If it is ever possible to esta blish a relationship with the government that reflects the reality of your work, things would improve greatly.

While there will no doubt be major changes in the next several years, the bottom line is that you have the toughest job in all children's setvices. He was also intetviewed by the media, and he said he was frustrated by the rocky relationship between Child and Family Set vices and government and of funding arrangements he called unclear and archaic, and he commented on the poor relations with government. He said there will continue to be tensions unless there are changes in funding arrangements and the level of setvice that should be provided.

Can the minister tell me if these concerns have been addressed since the resignation of Mr. Black? Mrs. Mitchelson: It is always nice again to be in opposition and to take excerpts out of letters, not in the full context. I am sorry I do not have the letters in front of me, but there are two letters; one that went to staff and one that came to me as minister. I am trying to get those right now and will provide them fo r my honourable friend. I do want to indicate that yes, there have been some problems between the Winnipeg agency and the government, extreme frustration over many issues.

Funding issues are one issue when we see the kinds of significant increases that have gone into our Child and Family Set vices system, especially in the City of Winnipeg, with millio ns of dolla rs of additional resources being provided on a year-by-year basis, and yet we do not seem to be seeing any significant impact on the number of dysfunctional families or the number of kids that need to come into care. I am not sure what the answers are. I do not think there are any easy answers, but the reality is that we have as many kids or more kids in care.

Their needs seem to be higher, and no matter what additional resources we seem to put in, we do not necessarily seem to be having a positive impact on society as a whole as a result of the things we are doing in Child and Family Setvices. So that is extremely frustrating fo r a government, and I know it must be extremely frustrating fo r those that work in the system, too, because many of them are doing just a fantastic job of trying to resolve the issues.

We do know and we hear from the Winnipeg agency that 70 percent of their case load is aboriginal, and yet we do not seem to have the aboriginal comm unity working with us in a signif icant way through our Winnipeg agency to deal with those issues, although we have reached out and I have encouraged, very strongly encouraged partnerships with the Winnipeg agency and some of the nonmandated agencies like Ma Mawi out there to see whether we can, in fact, have a significant or a positive impact on the issues that we are faced with as a result of increasing case loads being of aboriginal background.

We cannot deal with those issues without the aboriginal commu nity on side helping us to resolve those problems. I recognize that very cl early. One of the issues that is very frustrating for me, and it is probably frustrating fo r the agency, too, as I say, how many aboriginal staff do you have working in the agency to help you address the issue of a significant number of aboriginal child ren and fam ilies? The answer from the agency is we cannot keep aboriginal workers.

That is frustrating to me, as I am sure it is to them, but I think we have to examine why that is happening, and maybe the agency has to look at a dif fe rent way of recruiting and attracting and keeping -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 4345 aboriginal employees. They have to be a part of the solution, and we want them to be. So I guess, yes, Mr. Black was frustrated. I am frustrated as a minister, and we are frustrated as a government that keeps pouring mill ions and mill ions of dolla rs more into the system on a year-by-year basis and not seeing any positive impact. I guess fo r me the question is, is more money going to mean better service or healthier families? I am not sure we do not have to re-examine exactly what we are doing, how we are doing things.

Have we asked child and fam ily service agencies to be all things to all fam ilies and children, or do we need to be looking at a better way of delivering that kind of service and support? I am not sure I have an easy answer to that question, but we are working with the agency to try to see whether, in fact, we cannot identify what needs to change and see how we can make that happen. Are you saying, are the problems resolved? No, they are not resolved completely.

I would be silly to try to admit that there is not frustration on both sides; at the board level at the agency; I am sure at the working level in the agency, and I am sure at the level of community where we are not seeing a significant impact and significantly increased numbers of healthier fam ilies in our Winnipeg community, Winnipeg society. So I sense Mr. Black's frustration. He has been a great board member, and my letter to him did indicate that I valued his contribution. We will try our best to identify how we can fix the problems. As I said, no easy answer. I wish I had all the answers. Mr.

Martindale: When Mr. Black wrote his letter to the staff, the government would have been in the process of doing its budget for this fiscal year, since the letter was dated October 1, '96, and Winnipeg Child and Family Services, as the minister indicated earlier this afternoon, received an additional $1 ,783,400, if my arithmetic is right. I am wondering if the minister fe els that she has made some progress with Winnipeg Child and Family Services. Has the relationship improved? Acco rding to the Free Press article, Mr. Black said it was a rocky relationship.

Since that time, their budget alloc ation was increased and, presumably, the minister has had time to work with this agency to make improvements. What has happened since October 1? * (1510 ) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we are at present and have been going through a jo int process to try to determine what the actual budgetary requirements of the Winnipeg agency could be. We are working there as a committee, the department and the agency working together to try to identify what service we are buying from the agency at what price. So that is a process that is ongoing right now.

We also have a committee that is working together looking at options to improve services. They are looking at the fo ster care issue, they are looking at aboriginal issues, they are looking at emergency care issues, and at trying to see whether we can come to some agreement on how we can best deliver those services in the most efficient and ef fective way. So there is a process that is ongoing right now, trying to resolve some of these issues and identify exactly fo r us what we are purchasing from the Winnipeg agency and fo r them what their requirements are going to be. (Mr.

Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me if Winnipeg Child and Family Services had a deficit in their most recent fiscal year? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, they did have a deficit of $4.3 milli on. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me if the increased allocation of $1 ,783,000 is going to cover the deficit or is it going to be used to accommo date more families if their case load increases? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I guess we were only half listening to the full question, but can I indicate that we did get supplem entary funding last year to cover their deficit. And the second part of the question was? Mr. Martindale: Well, since the new funding is not going to cover the deficit, is it going to provide services to child ren?

4346 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Mr. Martindale: The minister expressed extreme frustration and listed three items: funding, an aboriginal agency and the number of aboriginal staff. I guess we could talk about funding fo r a long time, but I would like to move on to the aboriginal agency. If l heard the minister correctly, she said the aboriginal agency is not working with government. Is that correct? Mrs. Mitchelson: No, Mr. Chairperson, I would hate to le ave that. That is not what I said, I guess, and I would not want that impression left on the record.

What I indicated was that I have really, really encouraged the Winnipeg agency to work very closely with Ma Mawi. When we first set up The Family Support Innovations Fund, I was hoping that partnerships would develop with mandated and nonmandated agencies. I encouraged Ma Mawi and Winnipeg Child and Family to work together to bring fo rward proposals to use some of that innovative money to deal with the children that they had to deal with and the fam ilies they had to deal with, and fo r some reason or other it was very difficult for the two to get together and develop a partnership. That just cannot happen.

So it is not government not working well with Ma Mawi. As a matter of fact, we have a very good working relationship with Ma Mawi, and my honourable friend probably does know that Josie Hill is over at Ma Mawi now. We talk about Josie Hill quite often and her signif icant commitment and contribution to a lot of the issues that I have to deal with and a lot of the issues in my honourable friend's constituency. I do really believe that around the prevention and the fam ily preservation issues, our nonmandated agencies have to be as involved as our mandated agencies in finding the solutions.

So I have been frustrated as a result of that kind of activity not happening all the time. It has to work, and we all have to be on the same page when we are looking at support fo r fam ilies and working with fam ilies. Mr. Martindale: Is it the minister's view that because there is now a more co-operative relationship with Ma Mawi and the Winnipeg Child and Family Services that some of the problems in the past are being sorted out? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, absolutely. I think it is critical that that happen and it will happen.

I think if you look at the document we put out in July of last year that sort of preceded our public hearings around The Child and Family Services Act, it speaks to the community and to mediation, family conferencing. A lot of issues, I think, that were raised in that document were certainly moving in the direction of what a lot of aboriginal people would think would be the right direction to go to preserve fam ilies and work with fam ilies. I really believe that we will shortly have some announcements to make that will look at some pilo ts and some models of delivering service in dif fe rent ways.

So I am not at liberty to discuss those today, but I think you will hear some very positive things in the very near future which I am sure my honourable friend will agree with. Mr. Martindale: The minister expressed frustration about the number of aboriginal staff, I guess really the lack of aboriginal staff being hired by Winnipeg Child and Family Services, and I guess it is the agency's view that they do hire them, but they cannot keep them.

Actually, I ran into a graduate of Winnipeg Education Centre when I was knocking on doors during the federal election who has been applying and cannot get a job and would like to be working as a social worker. I wonder if the minister can tell me why it is that Winnipeg Child and Family Services cannot keep aboriginal staff. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I wish I knew. I mean, that is a challenge for them, and they are going to have to deal with that issue. It certainly is not as a result of any directive from government. They are an agency that runs their own show, so to speak.

I do not interf ere in the hiring process at the agency level, so they would have to be asked that question. I am not sure what the answer is, but I might ask my honourable friend if he has the name of the person who has graduated and I would ask whether she has applied to Winnipeg Child and Family. I am not sure you would want to share that information with me, but maybe you - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4347 could intervene on her behalf and ask her to write or to apply or help her, in fact, to see whether that might be an option fo r an opportunity fo r employment for her. Mr. Martindale: I wiii certainly discuss it with this individual. * (1 520) I have the Order-in-Council No. 268/1 997 regarding The Family Support Innovations Fund and the amounts of money and the agencies that the money goes to. Can the minister tell me if any of this money is given by the agencies to other organizations or do they spend it all internally? Mrs.

Mitchelson: The majority of the money stays right with the agency to deliver those programs with the exception of the fam ily reunification project with Winnipeg Child and Family, and that is a partnership with the Family Centre of Winnipeg. There are three nonmandated agencies that have received funding through The Family Support Innovations Fund; that is, MacDonald Youth Services, Andrews Street Family Centre and Rossbrook House. Mr. Martindale: Can the minis ter tell me if The Family Support Innovations Fund has been at relatively the same level in recent years or has it been increasing? Mrs.

Mitchelson: It has been the same level since it was introduced, $2.5 million. Mr. Martindale: Since the minister mentioned the fam ily reunification, I had a question later on about that. I assume that this refers to child ren who were adopted out of province, out of country. Mrs. Mitchelson: No. These are child ren that are in care that could possibly be moved back into their own fam ilies. It targets fam ilies living in Winnipeg's core area with children under 10 years of age where neglect issues have been identified, but the fam ily is wiiling to ef f ect changes in lif estyles and parenting approaches. Mr.

Martindale: I have some questions about that, but I will save them fo r later, so I do not lose my place here. Could the minister tell me if I have an understanding of the administrative structure here? Can the minister tell me if this is accurate? Is it true that the director of Children's Services reports to the assistant deputy minister who reports to the deputy minister who reports to the minister? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Mr. Martindale: Why are there so many layers of the bureaucracy? Why not have the director report directly to the minister? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I guess one of the reasons fo r that would be that in fact the assistant deputy minister has several responsibilities; not only child welf are but Family Dispute, Family Conciliation and Children's Special Services. That is all amalgamated under one assistant deputy minister. Oh, and Child Day Care also. It is the Child and Family Services division, so there is one assistant deputy minister for all of those areas, and the director of child welf are reports through him.

I suppose we could have a structure where the director of child welf are reports directly to the minister, but we would still need some administrative function for all the other areas. It just seemed to be the most ef fici ent way to reorganize the department and bring all services related to children under one assistant deputy minister. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me how many staff there are in the Child and Family Support branch? Mrs. Mitchelson: We have 61 staff years, and that is including 38 staff years at Seven Oaks. Mr.

Martindale: Can the minister tell me what these staff do other than the ones at Seven Oaks? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, of course there are a variety of activities which are ongoing in this area. The one new fo cus that we have placed in this area is complia nce, having the agencies comply with the standards that are set by the department. So we do have a director of compliance and we have activities that are related to that. We have a co-ordinator of intake and inquiry. We do protection and abuse work, the Child Abuse Registrar. We have program consultants. We have a co-ordinator for fo ster homes.

We have people who work on the Child and Family Services

4348 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 information system. We have an adoptions co ordinator and the activities which happen around adoption. We have support staff , records cl erks, data entry people , some financial support, accounts clerks. We have a co-ordinator of native services, agency relations manager, training co-ordinator, a co-ordinator for residential care. I guess that pretty well covers the variety of activities that are ongoing in this area. Mr.

Martindale: Why is it when there is a controversy or a crisis like moving up the announcement of the closing of Seven Oaks by several months because there is a letter being read on Peter Warren, instead of the minister attending a press conference she sends the assistant deputy minister for Child and Family Services and the director of Child and Family Support to meet with the media and answer their questions? Why would the minister not attend the press conference and answer the media's questions? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I was just trying to remember whether I was around on that day or not and I guess I was but, in fact, there are two dif fe rent kinds of activities that might take place when there is an announcement being made or sometimes there is a news conference, sometimes there is a press release. I think in the instance of Seven Oaks, it was in the planning stages but, when the letter came up and there was some criticism, we thought we might as well tell everyone that, in fact, we were in the process of closing down Seven Oaks.

These is some sensitivity, of course, around staffing issues because, when staff hear that kind of thing through the media rather than first-hand, sometimes it has a very negative impact and presents some uncertainty fo r staff. But anyway, because of the detail surrounding and the technical detail, it was better for staff who had been working on the whole process to provide the detailed, factual information. I could have been there to say, yes, we are closing Seven Oaks, and turned it over.

You have seen many announcements that are made where the staff from the department give the technical background and the detail and the minister is there to answer questions after, and I was there to answer questions after the technical part of the announcement and the detail had been made. So that is the way it happens sometimes. Mr.

Martindale: Well, I certainly knew that Seven Oaks was going to close and it was fa irly obvious that the announcement just got moved up but, on the other hand, this minister, every minister is ultimately accountable fo r every decision of government and, when the minister is unwilling to make an announcement and answer questions, it looks like the minister is ducking that accountability, and this is not the only occasion that the minister has done that. I can think of two occasions, one other occasion when the minister got the same staff actually to meet with the media.

I am wondering why the minister is not willing to take the questions and ask her staff, like she does in Estimates, if she does not have the detail. * (1530 ) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I cannot really say that I have ducked any accountability in the Department of Family Services or in the Department of Culture when I was the Minister of Culture. Ult imately, I am held accountable and the people of Manitoba will hold the government accountable. My constituents will hold me accountable in the next election campaign.

I have been open and up front, and I will argue with my honourable friend that I think that when it is important fo r staff to be there to answer the detail they will be there, and when it is important fo r me to be there as the minister because there is a certain policy direction that we are taking as a government, I will be there. I want to indicate to you that because I have such good staff in my department, from time to time the media call and request those staff be available to answer questions. As a matter of fact, I want to indicate that I know I am going to be on Peter Warren.

My time will come sometime in June, towards the end of June, but Peter Warren has also asked for my staff to do a morning show with him because he values their opinion and their ability to talk about some of the details of some of the work that is ongoing in the department. I want to indicate that not always is it me ducking. It is because there is a specific request fo r my staff to be present to answer certain questions. From time to time that happens, so I take great pride in knowing that there - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 4349 is staff in my department that are up to speed and working very diligently to see that change will be made when it needs to be made and that if they are asked to make comment I have every confidence that they can do that. They have the abil ity to do that, and the more Manitobans are informed with the facts around the change and the way we are going, I think the better off Manitobans will be.

I have no hesitation in saying that my staff is very competent and very capable of being able to provide the facts and the detail around significant change, and I have every confidence that every time they are asked or every time the decision is made that they provide that technical detail, they will do so professionally. Mr. Martindale: It is my understanding that the staff at Seven Oaks Youth Centre were told in 19 96 that nothing would happen to Seven Oaks until there were system-wide changes including a review of The Child and Family Services Act.

Now we know what is happening with The Child and Family Services Act, but does the minister really consider that there have been system-wide changes which I guess enable the place to be closed? Mrs. Mitchelson: I know that by the time Seven Oaks is closed the changes and the new system will be up and running, and it will not be closed until that happens. We have made a commitment to try to ensure that happens by the end of this year.

I want to assure Manitobans that we will not close Seven Oaks down completely until the crisis teams are in place, stabilization is there and the new beds are available, the psychiatric beds and also the treatment beds. There was a news release, and I am sure my honourable friend saw it last week. We anticipate that the girls' unit may be able to be closed by fall, and it will take a little longer for the boys' unit at Seven Oaks. But we will not, and we have made that commitment.

It would be fo olish to close down Seven Oaks until we had all of the other pieces in place, and they will be when we ultimately shut the fac ility. Mr. Martindale: If this information is accurate, the staff are told that nothing would happen until there are system-wide changes. Does the minister consider these things that she announced in the press release to be the system-wide changes she was referring to? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Mr. Martindale: The staff were told that there would be a review of other community-based facilities. Has that taken place? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Mr.

Martindale: What was the result of that review? Mrs. Mitchelson: As a result of the working and bringing together of the treatment facilities, I am talking Marymound, Knowles, New Directions and Macdonald Youth Services, we have had significant discussion around the intake process and trying to ensure that the right kids are in the right beds fo r the right kind of treatment. We have been assured that all of that will happen, and it will happen at the intake process and also at the discharge process so kids will not be discharged until they are ready to be disc harged to something else.

Actually they are very excited about the prospect of being able to do business in a diff erent way. We know that the youth psychiatric beds will be available through the Department of Health. We also know that Marymound-and I think that is public information now-will be the girls' receiving unit. We are still in negotiations but pretty close to determining where the boys will reside. That is why it is taking a little longer on that side, but we are pretty well geared up to ensure that Marymound will have the capacity to look at the girls' treatment beds in the community by fa ll.

So that consultation, that discussion has taken place, and I think everyone is on board in trying to do things a little diff erently into the future. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me where the 10 psychiatric beds will be located? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is not 10 , it is fo ur new beds, fo ur psychiatric beds, and they will be at the Health Scien ces Centre. Those are inpatient beds. The crisis stabilization beds, there will be six to eight for boys and six to eight for girls. I indicated that

4350 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 Marymound would be the site fo r the girls. We are in the process of working on the boys' facility. Mr. Martindale: What is the holdup in finding a boys' facility? Mrs. Mitchelson: We have been working, I guess I can say publicly, with Knowles Centre, and we are close to finalization. We just have not got the i's dotted and the t's crossed. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister confirm the target date fo r closing the facility entirely? Mrs. Mitchelson: We are targeting December 31, but I would not want that to be a firm date.

If it takes a fe w months longer, I would rather do it right than close it too soon. Mr. Martindale: What is going to happen to the staff at Seven Oaks Youth Centre? * (1 540) Mrs.

Mitchelson: We have been working through our Human Resource branch of the department pretty aggressively with Seven Oaks, and we know that they will no longer be emplo yed at Seven Oaks, but we are hoping that any of those individuals who are trained to fit into the new system-because, obviously, there is going to need to be more comm unity staff support through the diff erent fac ilities that will be accepting the child ren who previously went into Seven Oaks.

If , in fact, they can be retrained, we are of fering that option or opportunity if they are wanting to do that, so we will try our very best to accomm odate those who want to continue to work in the youth system. The union and the department have esta blished a joint Workforce Adjustment Comm ittee to assist employees. Mr. Martindale: It is my understanding that currently Seven Oaks Youth Centre takes youth that other fac ilities will not, including MA TC and the youth centre.

Can the minister assure me that when agencies in the community and the police and anyone else are looking fo r a crisis facil ity that the kinds of facilities that the minister announced in her press release will be available fo r these troubled youth? Mrs. Mitchelson: I want to point out to my honourable friend that this is not a correctional facility. It is a fac ility fo r those who are involved with Child and Family Services, so it is not a holding fac ility fo r Corrections. In the news release, it spells out quite cl early the whole process.

We will have six to eight more treatment beds on the girls' side through Marymound. We will have another six to eight stabilization beds on the boys' side. We will have fo ur additional adolescent psychiatric beds. The people who will come together to be part of the mobile crisis team-it will be multidiscipli nary. So we have MA TC, mental health, child welf are, occupational therapy, psychologists, all of those individuals who will be involved in the mobile crisis team, and the crisis stabilization units I have already indicated will be at Marymound and probably Knowles.

We will have brief treatment teams that within one day of the crisis will provide intensive and timely interventions and do some short-term planning with a view to a long-term case plan. We will have home based services available if we fe el that a fam ily can be kept together and that there is no danger to the child or the family if that fam ily is kept together, and resources can be put in to try to work out the problems. I indicated if we needed short-term psychiatric beds, that those beds would be available through the Department of Health at the Health Scie nces Centre psychiatric unit.

So it is a comprehensive plan. It has been worked on for several years now. We have been talking change. How do we best deal with the issues of treating children or youth at risk rather than just warehousing them at Seven Oaks? The original intent of Seven Oaks was not to have long-term placements, but it was to be short-term crisis stabilization, and then they were to move on to treatment. What has happened, admittedly, over the years is that it has been a fac ility that has warehoused some of our most difficult children in most need without any real - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 435 1 treatment plan, and with the new fo cus and the new way of delivering services we will be fo cusing on a case pl an and a treatment plan at the earliest opportunity. So we hope that through this process we will have child ren that are better served in the new system and they will not just be sitting around doing nothing, receiving no treatment and no ability to resume a normal lif e, if that is possible. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me if in recent years Winnipeg Child and Family Services underwent an operational review? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Mr.

Martindale: Was that review supposed to be made public? Mrs. Mitchelson: Ultimately, yes, it can become a public document. Right now we are working with the agency on some of the issues that were identified through the operational review and that will eventually be a public document. Mr. Martindale: This jo int committee, would that be the imple mentation committee of the agency and provincial staff? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Martindale: I have a docum ent-! am not sure where I got it-but it is kind of interesting reading: Winnipeg Child and Family Services Program Description

Summary. The initiative is called Family Focused Services, and the program title is Family Centred Reunification Program. I guess it is kind of dated now, but I notice one of the fo otnotes had a report called The Final Report on First Nations Children in Care fo r Winnipeg Child and Family Services written by Bruce Unfried in 19 94. I am wondering if I can get a copy of that report. Mrs. Mitchelson: Sure, we can get that. I am not sure we have it here, but we will get it and provide it. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me if this program went ahead?

The document that I have says the program is targeted fo r October 19 94. Did the Family-Centred Reunification Program get implemented? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, that was one of the projects under The Family Support Innovations Fund, and it was approved. That was the one project that I said was a partnership between the Family Centre of Winnipeg and the Winnipeg agency. Mr.

Martindale: I guess I am going to be jumping around a little bit here, but I noticed that when the minister was undertaking The Child and Family Services Act review, I fo und a description of it on the Progressive Conservative Caucus of Manitoba home page, and I am wondering why it was not on the government of Manitoba home page. I never would have thought of looking for it in the PC home page. Mrs. Mitchelson: My understanding is that it was on both home pages, and if my honourable friend has any dif fe rent information, maybe he could provide that or share that, but it is our understanding that it was on both.

Mr. Martindale: Well, the date that we were browsing or surfing, I guess the ninth month, the 20th day, 19 96, it was not on the government home pages, just on the PC home page, but that is ancient history, so we will pass over that little anomaly. Mrs. Mitchelson: Can I just indicate that it might have just been the excitement of my collea gue the honourable member for River Heights (Mr. Radcl iff e), who was really pleased to chair that committee, that it may have got on that home page bef ore the government one, but we will certainly check that out. Mr.

Martindale: I am glad that the minister reminded me about the member fo r River Heights. I wonder if the minister could have a little chat with her collea gue from River Heights and tell him that the next time he sends a letter to his constituents about decline in welf are caseload, if he could print accurate figures or at least tell people what the figures are that he is publishing. Certainly the number of cases indicated in his letter was no where near what the actual numbers are.

Now, the minister did provide some corrected information and tell me that it was single parents, so I wonder if she could advise her colleague that next time he sends out a letter to everyone in his constituency that

4352 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 he tell his constituents what group it is that he is talking about and indicate that this is only the single parent caseload if he is going to do that again and try to make the government look good with misleading statistics. Mrs. Mitchelson: Certainly, I know my colleague the member for River Heights would certainly want full and factual information provided to his constituents, and I know that he did provide that through the letter.

Employment First was targeted at single parents with children a certain age. * (1 550 ) So when he talked Employment First, he was talking about those individuals in that category. The information that he provided was factual, so I would just like to remind my honourable friend that I know my colleague the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe) certainly would never mislead his constituents in any way, that the information was full and factual. permanent wards forever? Are they in our system for 18 years? I mean, I get extremely frustrated with trying to analyze the days care issue.

You know, I need to know, are they children that go back into their home and are apprehended again? Are they in and out of the system? Are they there for years on end? Are we doing the right kind of case planning around children? Anyway, I just thought I would throw that in as the comment for my honourable friend, because I find it extremely frustrating to try and analyze what we are doing and how we are trying to budget based on days care when we really do not know what the cost of days care is for individual children. Can I ask my honourable friend where he may have got this from?

Was this out of the annual report for the-we do not have this breakdown. This would have come, I guess, from the agency, and I am wondering if it might be something that would be published-would this be in their annual report? We do not have any data or information collected in this manner. So it might Mr. Martindale: Well, we might have to come back have come from the agency. tomorrow so that I can have the letter in front of me again. Numerous people have expressed concern about the caseload, particularly by Winnipeg Child and Family Services.

I wonder if the minister could tell me the number of children in care by Winnipeg Child and Family? Also, I have a chart of days care comparing districts in Winnipeg and I am wondering, since the chart that I have is '95-96, if the minister could provide me with a more recent chart-and I will pass over the one that I have so the minister's staff can see it. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I will share this with staff in the department. I am not sure whether we have the same breakdown.

But I want to indicate a frustration of mine to my honourable friend, and my staff hear it all the time, and I am sure I have discussed this with the agency on several occasions. I mean, days care does not really tell me anything. I do not know what it says to my honourable friend. I guess, it says that there are a certain number of children in care for a certain number of days, but it really does not tell me what the issue is with that child. How many children are high needs, special needs, require significant cost? Are they children that are in the system for two or three or four or five years, or are they Mr.

Martindale: So the minister is saying that you do not have stats on the number of children in care-or, sorry, the days care? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, we do, Mr. Chairperson, but it is not broken down in this manner. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister give me handouts on the number of days in care? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we would have to undertake to get that and provide it for my honourable friend. Mr.

Martindale: Whenever a child in care dies, the staff often are blamed for not providing adequate service or protection or apprehending a child that might be at risk, but when one talks to the staff, especially the front-line staff, one hears a lot of frustration. For example, the Filmon government has forced them to close their offices for I 0 days a year. Sometimes the legal system does things that they have no control over, like, saying that a parent can have legal custody of a child, and they have huge caseloads. - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4353 For example, I am told that protection workers have up to 35 cases,

whereas the Child Welfare League of America recommends 10 active ongoing protection cases and for active investigations. I have also been told that workers sometimes have 50 to 75 cases, and that this has increased since centralization, but there has been very little increase in staff.

I am wondering if the minister shares the staffs concerns about the level of work that is expected from the staff in terms of case loads per worker and the ability of those staff to effectively monitor those families, or even do home visits or meet with the families, so that they are providing the kind of service that they should be able to provide so that children do not fall through the cracks, so that children do not die in homes that are unsafe. Does the minister share these concerns? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, certainly, I share concerns that every child is in a safe and secure environment.

I know that no one would go into work in the child welfare system if they did not have that as their first and foremost priority. So, I guess, I recognize and I realize that there are many, many out there that are doing a very good job in some very dif ficult circumstances and situations. I always say that it would be wonderful if we did not need a child welfare system. If every family was responsible and did not neglect or abuse their children, then we would not need a child welfare system. Reality is we always will need one.

What happens in the child welfare system is that the system is having to pick up the pieces after there has been dysfunction, abuse and neglect in a family, and sometimes the issues are not very easy to deal with. So I certainly respect and admire those that work on a day-to-day basis with some of the most significant issues that need to be dealt with in society today. Can I indicate that there have been additional resources and additional staff that have been hired at the agency? I am not sort of aware of exactly what those staff positions are doing.

I know a lot were hired with The Family Support Innovations Fund initiatives to deal with some of the special projects that are being undertaken. I guess, part of the dilemma that we have, too, is trying to determine really what our mandated agencies should be doing. Have we asked our mandated agency to do too much, or be all things to all families, or are there certain things that should be done through other systems? The big question in my mind, and it is one that I have asked out loud, I have spoken to the agency about that.

I think we are working with the agency through the operational review to determine really what our functions are. Is there ability to streamline and do certain things differently so that resources can be freed up to do the front-line activity and work? Those are all things that need to be examined very closely and we need to work with the agency on. As I said, no easy answers before. It seems to me though that a lot of the issues are more complex.

The issues that the child welfare system has to deal with today are more complex than they used to be, and I will tell you that we need to be trying to deal with issues up front before children hit the child welfare system. * (1 600) We need to look at early intervention. Some of the things we are trying to do with the Perry preschool programs, getting parents involved in parenting and understanding. I always say that the biggest responsibility any of us ever undertake is to parent.

We need to take those responsibilities very, very seriously, and that should be our No. 1 priority and, gosh, none of us do everything right. We all make mistakes along the way, but it is important for us to have at least the grounding and the understanding that there is help out there, and we can get that help when that help is required in our families.

So the issues around teen pregnancy, adolescent pregnancy, 14 -year-old girls parenting and choosing to parent their children when they have never been parented themselves, really leaves us in a double jeopardy situation where you have not very much of a chance of a very positive childhood experience if you have a parent that does not understand that parenting is a ma jor and significant responsibility. So we have to work to try to ensure that we deal with those issues and do the up-front early intervention so that hopefully we will not see as many children in the child welfare system as we see today.

It is dif ficult to change our focus from, you know, sort of, the back end, dealing with the issue after it

43 54 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 happens rather than trying to prevent the dysfunction or the negiect or abuse from happening in the first place. Those are the ma jor challenges, not unlike the challenges that are being faced right across this country by all governments of all political stripes. I think we all recognize and realize that dollars spent up front are dollars well spent and will save significant resources at the back end if we can spend them wisely.

So we are all attempting to find the right answers and some of the right programs that might have a positive impact on families and their ability to cope in today's world. I have probably rambled on a little bit, but I think it is important that we recognize that we are dealing in the child welfare system after the fact with families that have broken down, and we need to start to look at how we can do things differently at the front end and relieve some of the pressure on the system at the back end.

No question that there are many that work very hard in our system, and we will have to continue to try to find some of the answers. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me if the deficit of Winnipeg Child and Family Services is mainly due to child maintenance? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, it is. It is mainly due to special needs circumstances and cost for those services. Mr. Martindale: Is the minister aware that Winnipeg Child and Family Services has an emergency fund from which workers are authorized to draw in order to provide groceries for families where there is no food in the house? Mrs.

Mitchelson: We are not aware of the detail, but we do know that through after-hours service there is the ability, some flexibility to provide that kind of service if it is required. Mr. Chairperson: Before we proceed, if we could have a short recess, is there agreement? [agreed] What is short? About 10 minutes? Okay. Recess for 10 minutes. The committee recessed at 4:05 p.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 4:24 p.m. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. When the committee recessed we were on Resolution 9.4 Child and Family Services (

a) Child and Family Support (

I) Child, Family and Community Development. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me how many children are housed in hotels and motels on average? My understanding is that two hotels are being used and at least one motel. The minister might have more accurate information on that, but I am interested in how many children are staying there. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it averages around 40, but it has been as high as 80. Mr. Martindale: The reason I am asking is that some of these facilities are apartment suite hotels, they are staffed 24 hours a day, and there must be a tremendous cost to this.

I am wondering why such a large number of children are being provided temporary accommodation in this way. Mrs. Mitchelson: My honourable friend has raised an issue that is of major concern to our government, and I think the cost annually for kids in hotels is around $2,500,000, and that is s!gnificant. It is of great concern and it is something that has been identified as a real issue, and we are working with the agency to try to resolve it.

I know at one point in time the agency indicated that they did not have enough foster homes to place children in, and, as a result, I said: Well, why are you not doing some sort of a recruitment or an advertising campaign? I think they did as a result find some additional foster parents, but I think it is not certainly a place of choice or the treatment of choice. We need to address that issue. Mr. Martindale: Well, I would assume as well that it was a lack of foster homes, and I am wondering if the minister can tell me why she thinks the agency cannot find sufficient foster homes.

Could it be related to the reduction in rates that have happened in recent years? Mrs. Mitchelson: It is interesting to note that many of the children that are in hotels are young children. Many - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 4355 of them are aboriginal children, and I think that comes back again to the need to involve the aboriginal community in a significant way in trying to identify what some of the care options might be. I know in our discussions with Ma Mawi they have indicated that they are prepared to aggressively pursue recruitment of culturally appropriate foster homes, so we are working on it. I would hope that by next year we could report some significant improvement in that circumstance. Mr. Martindale: What is being done to assist or enable Ma Mawi to find more foster homes?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we have requested that Ma Mawi and the Winnipeg agency sit down and develop a course of action that might enable recruitment of foster homes, and they are presently going through a process where I believe Ma Mawi has indicated that they believe they can find 40 foster homes. So that process is underway. They are sitting down, and they are talking at the present time. Mr. Martindale: This minister often talks about family intervention and family unification and keeping families together and preservation and prevention.

It seems to me that, if all of these initiatives were working, we would not have so many children in hotels and motels. Why is it we allocate money for these new initiatives but we still have an increasing number of children in hotels and motels? Mrs. Mitchelson: I indicated it is as much a concern to me as it is to my honourable friend, and I think that is probably one of the reasons we put out our document called Families First: New Directions for Strengthening the Partnership. In the document it talks about a community-based approach to dealing with some of these issues.

I know I have had the opportunity to sit down with aboriginal women around the table in my office and ask whether they felt there was a desire to participate in a very meaningful process with a community approach where they might become involved early on in the case planning, in the identification of what might be the most appropriate plan, do some family conferencing, family mediation, case planning in a very significant way, and they are prepared to work with us. I think that was one of the reasons we determined that we should probably move in this direction.

Let us, when it comes to trying to maintain or develop healthy families, look at those in the community that have been successful and see how they can share some of that experience and expertise with others that are struggling.

Through the community consultations that we have had, I think time and time again there is a desire, neighbourhood by neighbourhood, to have community, community agencies, community organizations involved in the process of helping to provide the kind of support that is needed to strengthen families. *(16 30) So I indicated that we will be making some announcements fairly shortly on some pilot projects around the province that will in fact look at this model as a very really option for families. Mr.

Martindale: Can the minister tell me if there has been an increasing number of children requiring Level 4 and 5 foster care? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there certainly have been requests from the agency for additional costs for exceptional circumstances of children, so there is not necessarily a higher number of children. It is a price issue or a cost issue, and they are requesting more money for exceptional circumstances. Mr. Martindale� And has the minister agreed to provide additional money fEW these exceptional costs? Mrs.

Mitchelson: That has been some of the issues around their deficit and we have picked up those additional costs through special warrant or additional funding, so I guess the short answer is yes. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister confirm for me that Winnipeg Child and Family Services is contracting with Medox to hire employees for staffing hotels and motels? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, they are. Mr. Martindale: Do these staff have any training in child care or anything related to the kinds of children in their care?

4356 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 3, 19 97 Mrs. Mitchelson: The agency has the responsibility to ensure that the appropriate staff with the appropriate training are hired to provide the services, and they infonn us that the individuals that are perfonning these services are licensed and have the ability or the capability to deliver that service. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister explain what she means when she says that they are licensed, the individuals are licensed? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I do not whether licensing is the appropriate tenninology to use, except to say that these people who would be hired through Medox would have to meet the requirements of any professional or paraprofessional that delivered nursing services or home support services in the health care system, and that would probably be a requirement of being hired by Medox to deliver a service. So I guess that is what I am trying to indicate is that they would have to be qualified based on the standards that would be set by a finn like Medox or any other finn that they might use to deliver those services. Mr.

Martindale: Well, it is my understanding that Medox requires that they only have a Grade 12 education and that they are getting paid $6.50 an hour and that they have almost no qualifications. In fact, I was told that one worked at a hotel, another one was a waitress at a bar. So are these people being hired primarily to do babysitting, or are they actually required to have a child care background or social work background? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I guess I will reiterate that the agency has the responsibility to ensure that the staff that are caring for children in care have the right qualifications, and I guess that, if my honourable friend has some circumstances or individual situations that he is aware of that tells him or me that that is not the case, I would certainly have to approach the agency and consider that a very serious concern. So, if there is infonnation that we could share, and we do not have to do it on the record, but I would certainly want to investigate and ask some very direct questions of the agency to get the answers.

Mr. Martindale: Well, I thank the minister for that undertaking, and I will try to verify the infonnation and provide it to the minister. Can the minister tell me if there is any kind of training available for foster parents? Mrs. Mitchelson: Training for foster parents is delivered on an agency-by-agency basis. We fund agencies, I think, 50 cents per day in care for training for foster parents, and then it is the agency's responsibility.

But I understand that we have just recently called together the provincial foster care co ordinators and foster parents to look at some sort of a strategy to see whether we can have a province-wide training process, so that is in the works right now. Mr. Martindale: Do all of the agencies provide the training? Mrs. Mitchelson: My understanding is that there is not a consistent approach agency by agency. Some do more fonnalized types of training,

whereas others do smaller groups, mentoring type of training. I guess that is one of the reasons we have called the co-ordinators together around the province to see whether there cannot be some consistent fonnat that is used for training of foster parents. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister provide for me the list of the current foster care rates in effect in Manitoba? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, we will get that and provide it. *(16 40) Mr.

Martindale: Can the minister tell me ifthere is a policy regarding foster parents having ongoing contact with foster children who leave their homes and go to another foster home or to a pennanent placement? Mrs. Mitchelson: It is my understanding that a plan is developed for every individual child based on their individual needs, and in some cases that may happen and in others, not, I guess depending on the individual circumstances. Mr. Chairperson: Resolution 9. 4 Child and Family Services (

a) Child and Family Support

(1) Child, Family and Community Development (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,295,7 00-pass; (

b) Other - -

June 3, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4357 Expenditures $2,860,4 00-pa ss; (

c) Maintenance of Children and External Agencies- Mr. Martindale: On several occasions the minister and I have discussed the minister's policy of whether or not she would release recommendations made by the Chief Medical Examiner regarding children who die in the care of a child welfare agency with the caveat, which I cannot remember right now-with the caveat that the recommendations, I guess, do not have any legal implications. I cannot remember what the caveat is.

The minister will remind me because the minister always has the caveat, but on several occasions the minister has publicly promised to make public the recommendations. We are still waiting. The minister has not acted on this promise. I am wondering if the mmtster is finally willing to make public recommendations made by the Chief Medical Examiner. Mrs. Mitchelson: We have been working on this and discussing this with the Chief Medical Examiner, and sometimes the nature of his reports is very difficult.

I mean, you are sort of-if we take the onus or responsibility of pulling out of his reports what we believe is not confidential or not identifying, it is difficult from time to time. I guess we have been discussing the nature and the way his reports are written and whether we need a different format so that a certain portion could be released that would be standard. There are still some issues to sort out with this. I want to indicate, though, that we have made a commitment that we will release recommendations, and we will do that.

I am not sure exactly what that format will be, and we have been back and forth and up and down. It is not a really easy issue to deal with, but in fact we will be releasing the recommendations. I just wish I had a clearer answer for my honourable friend, but it will happen. It will be at least on an annual basis at minimum, and the format still has not been completely finalized. Mr.

Martindale: Well, this kind of reminds me of the minister's commitment to proclaim The Vulnerable Persons Act, which she said she would do soon, and to get a course at Red River College, a full-time training course for youth care workers, which was promised soon. I am not going to hold my breath. I might be asking the same question next year in Estimates, but I will expect some progress in that regard. I do have some of the recommendations to the minister from one of the Chief Medical Examiner's reports, and it is not really necessary to say which report or which death it is because I th

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-54
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 54.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	64b163c37a925e5a2e3efbebfc126b9de849d201

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