.. I T t I· .. . .. Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR I .. I HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY . -. ..r Number 6 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly . VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 1970 SPEAKER! THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE .· ~· ...... --·--~-· .. ···-·----- ·-- ·~--·----··--·-- ___ , ______ .. _.._.._.,_.,._________ -------- -·-· - .

February 25th. 1970 Tape 067 Page 1 The House ~~t at 3 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! RON. J. R. SMALLWOOD (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am sure I speak for every hon. member of the House on both sides of the House, when I express a word of cordial welcome to some forty-seven students of Grade IX and Grade X of St. Edward's I I High School, Bell Island, who are here visiting us today in charge of their teacher Mrs. Dolph O'Neill. i Nov I think that they are in perhaps both galleries, behind me as ' vell as in front, I cann~t see, but I would assume.

And therefore, I feel safe as I can see only one, two, three, four young men~ I feel safe in saying that in my opinion, the young ladies are just as intelligent looking as-the young men, and a lot nicer looking - just as intelligent but a lot better looking. We are happv that they have come to visit us here today. I do not knov what their member, the Ron, the Minister of Public h'elfate thinks, whether he will share my opinion about the beauty and intelligence of the boys and the girls.

But I am sure we are all very glad they have come this afternoon to share from the galleries quiety and silently, which it must be 1 very silent, very quiet - shar.o in the proceedings of the Legislature. They will £ee the ?eople' s House in Session. They 'rlll hear great ora tot:•, they will hear marvellous log'ic, and they will hear profound philosophy. And I do not see how they could leave us unless they go in a minu.te or two - I do not see how they could leave us without being much wiser with regard to Newfoundland than they were before they came in.

I do not suppose they will have a thorough und~rstanding of hov this House works - it works according to rules like a football gam~ - it has its and own rules, or a hockey game. Most things are doOe: according to rules>~ this House-has its rules, and the rules are very old. Indeed they are very ancient. The more ancient they are, the more precious they are, and the more they are respected Jt any rate, the more_ they are supposed to be respected- they are not always respected and carried o~t faithfully, but they are supposed to be.

And so because of the rules our visitors may not understand thoroughly . the business of the Reuse. We act according to very ancient rules, that were made long before we were born, before our fathers and gr,andfathers were born - J

February 25th. 1970 Tape as7 Page 2 very very ancient rules, and therefore it will not perhaps always be easy to understand why ~e do what we do and why we behave.as we do. At any rate, that ia it, St. Edward's High School, Bell Island -Grades lX and X -forty-seven of them under their teacher Mrs. Dolph O'Neill, and I can only say to the hon. member for Bell Island that I envy him - such fine, intelli~ent, and so far as the girls are concerned; good-looking constituents. I am sure t~ey all voted for the hon. member, and if not, I am sure they would if they could. Anyway they are very welcome to the House.

And now I I I am going to sit down, 1 while the eloquent Leader of the Opposition gets up and if he never does it aga~n for the rest of the Session, he is ~oing to agree with everything I have said. He is going to say "ditto" he is going to say "hear, hear" - he is going to say, "the Premier is absolutely right" - he may not say it again for the rest of the year, but he is going to say it today, that these students are intelligent, are good-iooking, esnecially the girl.s, do not forget that - do not forget that part - the girls - or the hon. gentleman will have be n~ hope of winning Bell Island next time.

I am sure I will joined by him as by all members of the Rouse in welcoming the first students of this Session. I suppose:.there will many here before this season is over, ~e will have many many hundreds of other students, and the more the merrier, the more the better, and they are as welcome as the flowers in ~~y. Now I am not sure that I will be around long enough for these fifteen, sixteen; seventeen y~ar olds to be voting, and ~hether I will around long enough for them to be voting for me, or not, I cannot say - there are people in this House who would like to know, but I am not going to give them any hints.

APPLAUSE: BON. ANTHONY J. MURPHY (Leader of the Opposition): M~. Speaker, I take great pleasure in joining with the Premier on this occasion welcoming these young student~ from Bell Island. Perhaps it is one of the few times we will agree - the Premier as usual was very eloquent in describing just what this House represents. and I think we all agree with it. It is a very historic room in itself this Assembly - We come here to transact the business that pertains to all the people of this Province. The Premier sometimes contradicts himself.

In the first instance he said these students looked very intelligent, and then in the next breath he said they voted for the hon. member for Bell Island - now th~t just does n~t hold.

I cannot see that, but I suppose he has got to give his member the benefit of the doubt. I am very happy indeed to welco~e these students here. Do not be afraid, do not be seated. It is not what you read in the paper, you hear over the air, pollution is not as prevalent in this House as some people seem to think I There might be some hot air, but I think basically it has been cleared by the Ron. Minister of Health. There is no danger, a~d we 'Will all join :and I am sure there are no political parties when we welcome these young people.

These are · the citizens of the future, these are the ones we are striving to keep our Province safe for, and I am sure : that all of us on this side - I do not know if the nudging four are going to have a word to say or not ·- I do .. r:.ot know if they come in on I I this, but I am sure the hon. member for Bell Island is very happy and I do not blame him. I think he should be very proud of these young people. The ·name Mrs. Dolph O'Neill sounds familiar - I do not if it is the same of ~y old friend that I should know. But Mr.

Speaker, I am very happy indeed to join with the Premier on this occasion to welcome these students, and to ask that they enjoy their trip here. And had a lovely sea-trip over, ~erhaps they are some of the few citizens of our province that can have a sea trip, and come into St. John's - not too long, a beautiful view coming in, And we certainly hope they do enjoy their visit, and we say "will ye nae come back again? Thank you very much. lPPLAUSE: HON. STEPHEN A. NEAR';' MTIHSTER OF 1-lELFARE: Hr. Speaker, in adding to the welcome extended to my young friends of Bell Island, by the hon. the Premier and the bon.

Leader of the Opposition, may I assure them that I have pr~sented a petition on their behalf. Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, I have for each one of them, before they leave this bon. Ho:Jse of Assembly copies of"Historic Newfoundland", bearing the signature of Joseph R. Smallwood, the only living Father of Confederation, duly witnessed by their own representative. So you see, Mr. Speaker, those young autograph hunters, the prayer of their petition has been granted. SOME HON. ME!1BER: Here! Here! BON.F.W." ROWE; MINlSTER OF EDUCATION: Mr.

SpeakeJ;..;._;·~r rise 'With a little hesitation to a point of privilege: Last year I rose on two occasions, two points of privilege, and it was subs~quently s~ated in the press that Rowe stood up for the twenty-fourth time to a point of privilege in the present session. It vas not reported I should not have said that - but it vas stated by a writ'"er in the pli-per.

. ~ ,, r .. I ,. ... ..... I think he was trying to be funny, but a lot of people thought that I spent most standing to points of privilege. I want to make it quite clear (and IlOW I am serious) that I appreciate, as I am sure does every hon. member in this Rouse, the difficulties confronting the Press, representatives of the various media, Radio and Television and the newspapers, in trying to report the proceedings of I this House, and I, for one, do not take objection at all if on occasions small mistakes occur and perhaps a little distortion or a little misunderstanding ' creeps in.

I do not take exception to it and I have no intention of I quibbling every time somebody leaves out some jot or tipple of what I have said here in the House. : i The news report of the "CBC" Regional News, at 11:50 o'clock, last night, February 24, 1970 - and I wrote it down as it was said or et least immediately after it was said, and it was so serious th~t I felt I should rise on a point of privilege. Mr. Speaker, the exact words stated in the news bulletin at 11:50 P.M., CBC aegional News, was: "Dr.

Rowe charged that foi'lner Cabinet Ministers were breaking their oath of office by taking-part in a non-confidence vote against the Government •• " Mr. Speaker, I do not need to inform this House and I am sure the Hansard will bear this out, I at no time ever made such a statem~nt, I at no time every implied such a thing and, of course, I do not think such a thing. I should like to have that go in the record, Hr. Speaker. •. _ PETITIONS: MR. A WORNELL I have nineteen letters here, MR. Speaker, all of ~hich have the same tenor and prayer of a petition, and with your consent, Sir, I will present them as a petition.

These letters are written by the residents of Furbys Cove, in Hermitage District. Some' of the letters contain various names. The first one has seven names and ' the others have, six, seven etc. All together there are some ninety names represented, but there are twenty letters. Some letters have been duplicated~ In other words, they wrote one _ month and wrote again. The prayers of each letter or petition are identical. They all pray that rural el~ctrification be extended tO the Community of Furbys Cove.

.· ''Fe,bTUary 25, 1970 Tape 67 Page S Row last !ear _, Sit', a transmission line was built by Checo EQgineering, from Bay D'Espoir Power Hydro-Development Plant to Harbour Breton and .Hermitage. This transmission line follows the contour of the land and goes to within one mile of Furbya COve. I understand that poles were landed in !'urbys Cove and the construction company cut a right-off-way into the line site.

So it would not take too much mOtley to have this \ transmission ~ine connected to Furbys Cove. . 1 heartly endorse the prayers and request of these letters, Sir, and 1. ask. that they be received in the spir.it of a petition, in view of the unanimity of the expression they contain. I ask that they be received by this hqp.. Rouse and referred to the depart111ent to which they referred. Oa. 1110tion · petit!~ received for reference to the department to vbieb it relates: I •·

: ·. February 25, 1970 Tape 68 Page 1 cc presenting reports of··standin~; ~nd select com:nittcc5. MR. KF.Ot.:G!l: ~lr. Specker, I be~; lcav~ to t.nblc the follouing reports for the Calcnda~ Yc<J;:.r,nding D~cc:nl;er 31, 1969 :"15 required hy st:ttate:-:.- the report of i!lO!tters transact< d b:r the ~Lin:!.stc1.· of L:b01:r un~k:l."' the p;:ovio tons of the 1:-:i:.:JUr Rel.:1tions 1\ct, the report cf the lr..bour r•.'l:1.t:!.o1~c DoL!n! ~n l the annu::tl report of th<! r:h1hrum uac-:!. bat~ni. HR • .JONES: 1·::-.

Srl'!u!:er, t.::bled copies oO: t 11e Pui:lic Scnice rcr-:;io:or; lion-participating E2!_llo;~c<!s 1 Regulatio:1s, 1969. Und~r Si:::".::\•<:c> !t l': of the Op~ning. Mr. Sp<!akcr. I WClulc also Eke to say that edGitiePa! copies of the Auditor Ce:::e:ral' s repnrt for the yea1: ending 1'.169 ere r.cu in the cl erl:;' s office sr.d will be d:istriC·u-=ed a:td will be dictributed in due CC'I.'rse. MR C!-LLA!tA::: Mr.

S!Je.aker, I as~: leave to table the ~nn:.::1l. rcr,,rt , Al!l!itcr General' s:-cport, ancl fir:zacial !;tatc'mer·.ts a.:: the Co-c:::c::ati\·c f"\·c!c~·ce,~:: l.oan to.:;:::::d !or tue ;,·cor e.'di.:lg Harch 31, 1%9, ,i!j::::! I / in the clerk's office. I . e "',. ·-- MR.. HELLS: Hr. Sp~aker, I tiivc notice t~at I ~:ill on tc::or.:-co;:, mo\·c the follo;1ing resolutions: whcr~;;:.:; it is c=-s.:m~icl for all rncrr.;,c;:!: (If t~ds House to ll.:l.'la rza~onable office acccr.:orl::.ti:m:.; clcsc to the !:t"use to cnchle them to pro?~=ly disch;::rgc th;:d:r dut~c::; zrrd ~:1crcns th·.!

Cov·.::!:n:,lent h..:s refused to pro.,r:idc suit;:ble ecco:;:od;;.tic~ O;:\ ci,thl!~ the nln•h or th..! tenth hen. Min:f.s':cr, tl:~rcf'.n·c be it rcsolvc•1 th::t t !1ic ILct•cc cii.;c.':: the Government Portfolio. 1'0:-! • .J. ~. S~·~-.~T.~:C~1"): 1-!r. Spcal:cr, I have· at le-ast p<"~rtial answero to s~

. · I l t _____ , February 25, 1970 - Tape 68 Page 2 cc Question No. 65 - the han. the member for St. John's West.

(1) No.

(2) I have not, at the moment the answer to the second part. When it arrives, I will be glad to table it to impart it to the House. Queation No. 66 ~That is on the order tabled for today) Question No. 66 - the bon. the member for St. John's West.

(1) The answer is "No" •

(2) The ansYer to the second

part is "Soon" • .

(3) I have not yet received the answer to the third part. Question No. 67 - the hon. the member for St. John•s West.

(1) The answer to the first

part is that we did enter an,_ agreement with Mr. Groom. It was an oral agreement confirmed by an ordering council. It was, I think, for five years.

(2) The answer is tbat the salary was $20,000.00 rising to $25,000.00 rising to $30,000.0Q a year. No pension.

(3) Yes. Mr. Groom has submitted his resignation. What Mr. Croom 4id, in fact, was ask me if the Government would release him from his I 1 agreement, which had, I think, two years to go. We agreed with regret and reluctance. It:-.takes effect at the end of the year, and as to .-hat pro- visions have been made with reference to any contract ente.red into with Mr. Groom, I do not know what that means . The Covernment's~year~- the year -- the Newfoundland's.year. The Government's year, the end of the year. SOME HON. MEMBER: The public may not be aware of this, but the Government's yaar ends March 31.

PREMIER SMALU~OOD: That is right, March 31 is when the Government's year ends. l!R. CROSBIE: I have a supplem~ntary question. The hon. the Premier informed the House whether or not he is quite sure that there were no provisions for payment of pension under that agreement - not whether or not there is not any pension paid now but provisions for pensions to be paid at the end of the term. - -- ---·- ----- ·-·-------- --- ---~ -- ·-- -- ------- -

,•. . . Feb~ary 25, 1970 · Tape 68 Page 3 GC PREMIER SMALUIOOD: I will check further on that. My impression is that there is no pension.~pension at the end of five years~ I do not think so. As a matter of fact I was under the impression that it was ten years, but Mr. Groom informed me when he came to see me that, no, it was five years. So, I am going by his word without having checked the ordering council. He was imployed by an ordering council, and my impression was that it was for five years, but - for ten years - but he says, no, it was for five. SOME HON. ~EMBER: Five and five.

PREMIER SMALLIWOD: Five and five? Option of renewal at the Government's option, and at the end of ten years, I think that there might be a pension, but not at the end of five. Is that how it goes? Is bhat it? SOME HDN. MEMBER: Yes. PREMIER SMALLWOOD: But, I thin~, my colleague the Minister of Finance probably ha5 it:~ore freshly in his mind, so that it would now appear that the agreement was _for five yea~s, as Mr.

Groom thought - as he informed me when he saw me - but tenewatilec: for five, and that if it were j to be renewed and he was to serve the ten, he:.would then get a pension but not at the end of. five years. Question Mo. 71 - from the hon. the member for St. John's West. I can only say in connection with this whole question that has to do with the oil refinery at Come-by•Chance and it is a long series of questions, this matter is the subject of debate later today.

A debate initiated by the same han. member and I will say now in reply to this question what I will say in the debate that is to come, that we are not going to table a11y of this information at the moment. We are going to table all of it, but not at the moment, that certain negotiations are proceeding.

These are extremely important and definitive negotiations - negotiations that are the final conclusion of all the negotiati~ns and these are in the last stages at the moment and until they are ~ompleted, we will not be tabling any information but the House is to understand clearly that all the information is to be tabled, but not at the moment, not until these negotiations are completed in.the next few days. It might stretch into a week but I do not think so, I think in the next few days.

It would be positively inimical, positively injurious to the public interest to give any information at this stage and we do not intend to do it at this stage.

February 25, 1970 Tape 68 Page 4 GC Question No. 72 - the hon. the member for Bonavista North.

(1) No. (

Z) No

(3) I do not know, but I would assume so i I

(4) I have not the slightest idea. This odd question, Mr. Speaker. I suggest to four Honour ought not to have been permitted on the order pa~~r. l This is a question ~aving to do with post offices with which this Governcent has not- in which it has no jurisdiction and for which it is not ans~erable I and about which it :has 110 information e:{cept what it reads in the newspapers. I MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, if· there is· to be 8'.~debate as to whether this question is suitable or not, I presume we can all participate in it or is not the answer to question --- EREM!rut·:SMA1LWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, there is no point of order here. MR. CROSBIE: When queStions are to be answered, Mr. Speaker, are they not just to be answered? If the hon. Premier wants to start a debate on whether the question is proper or not, we would insist on debating it. PREMIER SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I suggest to Your Honor that this question ought not to have been allowed on. the order paper and that any question in future put in by any hon. member referring to matters for wl.lch this Government are not responsible, ought to be ruled out and not put on the order paper. I ask ~eli~ Hono~ that this be done in fut~re. MR.

CROSBIE: I am not sta~ding, Mr. Speaker, en the point of order. The point of order is the one I just made a few moments ago, which you have not yet given any decision on. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that when questions to answers·are being given, this is not the time to start the argument as to whether the question is properly put on the ~rd!r paper or noc. There are other methods of disposing of that, and if this is the time to argue these ~tter~, I would like to be informed. I am sure that the rest of the members of the House would like to be, so we can join in the debate.

I submit that question and certainly part of it is quite pvoper. MR. SPEAKER: The questions asked, as I pointed out in an earlier sitting of this House, when thejt:reply to that is that there is no debate, but I think thatr.it is:stil~ in order for the minister to whom the question is

February 25, 1970 'l'ape 68 Page 5 GC directed, to state that this is outside of his jurisdiction and it has - it is in the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada and therefore, is not a proper question to ask him, and it is for the clerk and the Speaker of the I I House to decide whether the question goes on the order paper or not, but the I · comments ene to the point, that it is within~ Federal jurisdiction and therefore, outside .the ambit of questions which should be answered by the I minister, perfectly in order. PREMIER SMALUIOOD: Mr. Speaker, that being clear - Mr.

Speaker~ Question No. 75 Question No. 75 - in the name of the hon. member for St. John's West. MY answer must be the same as that given by me in answer to question No 71 on the order paper of today. The Government had no intention whatsoever of tabling any information whatsoever about the oil refinery at Come=by-Chance for some days to come - that as quickly as we have the freedom to do so, we will do so, but we· do not have it at this moment because the negotiations are not definitively completed and they are almost~~efinttive~y=~o~pi~ted.

We expect that they will be in a matter of days, whereupon we will be happy and p~oud ~nd very eager and very determined to table all this infot~tion with emense pride, happiness and satisfaction for ourselves and for bhe people of Newfoundland. HR. KEOUGH: Question No. 76 - On today's order papers, standing in the aame of the hon. the member for llumber East. Question No. 76

(1) Has the Workman's eompensation Board entered into an agreement to rent space in Philip Place? Answer, yes.

(2) What is the amount of space agreed to be rented! Answer, 11,604 sq. ft. of office space; 1,230 sq. ft. of vault space. (3) ~~at is the rental per sq. ft. per year? Answer, $6.00 for office space; $3.00 for vault space.

(4) What is the amount of the total rent per year? Answer, $73,314.00. (

S) What rental was the Workmen's Compensat~9n. Board paying for office space on a yearly basis in Confederat .ion Building? Answer, $33,175.92. ... . -.

.. ' ·.· .. . February 25, 1970 Tape 68 Page 6 GC ·

(6) What person or co-operation is the owner of Philip Place? Answer, Lundrigans Limited.

(7) If the owner is a co-operation, what are the names and addresses of the principle officers and shareholders of the said co-operation? AAaver, the Workmen's Compensation Board does not have this information. MR. WELLS: Question, Mr. Speaker. Is the hon. minister aware that another I agency of Government namely the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commisiion. acquired office space in the same building for $5.25 a sq. ft. as I announced by the hon. the Premier.-- ! MR. CROSBIE: On a five-year t~rm. MR. WELES: . A fev days ago on a five-year term? MR. DAlfE: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to Question No. 77 on today's order paper asked by the bon. member for St. Barbe's South. Question No. 77 - hon. member for St. Barbe's South • {1) The amount spent,to·date.to implement the Urban Renewal Scheme at Blackhead Road by the Province of Newfoundland. Answer, $1,286,340.75. This consists of ~o amounts. The first amount paid directJy by the Province. $681,198.00; loan from Central Mortgage and Housing $605,142.00.

(2) The amounts spent, to date, by Central Mortgage and Rousing · Corporation. $907,714.09

(3) The amounts sper.t,tod!date 1 by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. $393,83. This is the amount for house designs, but I should like to clarify, Mr. Speaker, to say that an amount_of $15S,426.07wwas purchased- vas spent for the purchase of houses -vas subsequently, this amount vas ~epaid by the P~ovince and it forms part of the amount in answer No. 1. Therefore the total expenditure, to date, is $2,194,448.71. HR. MAlONEY: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question No. 68 on today's order paper, asked by the hon. the member for St. John's West.

. .. HON. A. MALONEY(Min. of Fisheries):

(1) The herring reduction plant $530,758.58. This is a payment in accordance with the statuto1 requirements of Act. No. SO of 1966-67. The amound is $530,758.58. On vessels, the acount of $973,386 these two vessels are owned by the Government of ~ewfoundland.

(2) The amount spent during the fiscal year I commencing April 1, 1969, was $31, 800. Question No. 78, asked by the hon.member for St. Barbe South, (1) .18 vessels. (2) 4 vessels. I have for the House the names of the fishermen concerned, the particulars of the vessels, and the amounts paid in the form of bounty. I mibht add that a separate bounty is not paid on ·engines, so the bounty is paid on the completed vessels. HON. E. ROBERTS(Min. of Health): Mr. Speaker, with reference to the question on today's Order Paper, question No. 74, asked by the hon. member for St. John's West.

The answer, Sir, is that, no, n~ither I nor, to my knowledge any of my officials has told any hospital in this Province that they will receive duting the coming fiscal year no more monies from the Government than they received add during the fiscal year ~hich will end on March 31, next. I should/for the benefit of the House, Sir, and I ~ould have thought that the hon. gentleman would have recalled this, hospital budgets in Newfoundland and indeed throughout Canada, are established on the has1s of the calendar year, not the fiscal year of the Government. My ~nswer is easily applicable to the calendar year.

It is true Sir, that the Government have asked hospitals authorities again this year to keep their operating budgets to the lovest possible level consistent with authorized services and themmaintenance of a high quality of patient care, and I feel SJrs that I should tell the House the hospital boards are co-operating in the greatest possible degree. ·. {2) Does not arise.

MR.WELLS: Has there been any suggestion, by any officer of the hon. minister's department, that either of these hospitals mentioned in this question should cut back on their cost even if it means cutting out or reducing the services presently provided, has that been said to them en any occasion in a letter by an official of the bon. minister's department? - - --·--------

·. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I nave not, nor could I see all the letters ~ritten by my officials. MR.WELLS: t~o is responsible for them7 MR.ROBERTS: I agree Hr. Speaker, and I have not said I am not responsible if the bon. gentleman has a particular letter, or particular communication in mind I ~ould be happy to look into it.

I am not going on a fishing expedition, Sir, If I understand the han. · gentleman's question, and I am not sure I do, I am 1 not sure that it was, perhaps Sir, it is a question for the Order Paper and I I ~ould undertake to look into it and get the details of any partfcui.ar programme he has in mind. To repeat, Mr. Speaker, I am not goir.g on a i I fishing expedition, I have 2200 employees _in the Departmant of Health I do not intend tc read all their correspondence, Sir. RON. W. ROWE(l-!il\. of Community & Social Dev.): Hr. Speaker, question No. 70 asked by the . hon. member for St. John's West.

In connection ~th~~~~stion, Mr. Speaker, and all questions concerning DREE and this government's negotiations with that department. I would say 'that the Government is in the process of completing negotiations respecting the first year pr~lim~nary DREE prograwme. Until those negotiations are completed I have nothing to table in this Honourable House and ~hen they are completed, when the negotiations are completed }lr. Speaker, the programme will be laid before this House in its entirety and fully explained. ORDERS OF TilE DAY: HON.L.R.CURTIS(Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I have a motion to make with resppct to sitting hours of the House today, and , on fridays. As han. meobers know today is private members day and it is by purpose to call that order first. It is not my intention to call any Government orders today, in other ~ords, when the private member~ business has be~n disposed of, it is my intention to call for the adjournment of the House, until tomorrow. On the other hand if private member~ business extends beyond six o'clock, I propose to ask that the rules be changed and the House to meet tonight to finish disposing of that business.

And, furthermore, it is my intention to suggest to the House that since there are many members of the House ~ho live out of town that on Friday nights.as six o'clock Mr. Speaker leave the Chair and we have no night sessions 'on Friday nights, so the suggestion is really that we replace t1ednesday night holiday by a Friday night hoiiday, ~hich I think would suit everybody much better. The effect of my motion, would be to take r~e no 7 and have it read this ~ay, at six o'clock on Friday l-lr. Speaker adJourns the House ~ii:hout the question.

put,the House then adjourns, stands adjourned until the follo~ing Monday. But that the reference to ~ednesday in seven will be Friday instead of Yednesday. In other words,,if at the hour of six o'clock except on Friday the business of the House has not concluded Mr. Speaker is to leave the Chair until 8 p.m •• ! think that I have made this situation clear and therefore move the follo~ing I lesolution. I move that Standing Order 7 requiring Mr. Speaker to adjourn the I House at 6 'p.m. on "1-iednesdays be suspended and that instead Mr.

Speaker at 6 p.m. fa leave the Chair until S p.m. and further I that on Friday at the hour of 6 p.m. Mr. Speaker adjourns tPe I House without question put until the Monday following. Now I I have a , if the House would prefer I could limit the Resolution to today and just move that the House not rise at 6 p.m. today.

But so that the hen. members aay knowtthat Wednesday is private members day and that they will have as much time as they wish for private memb~rs business, It is suggested that we meet on Wednesday as long as private members like, after the private members business is complete I intend to·move the adjourment of the House. MR.WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, I draw Your Honour's attention to Rule 29, Standing Order . 29. ~~ich reads: Twenty-four hours notice shall be given of a motion for leave to present a Bill, resolution or address, or for placing a question on the Order Paper; but this rule shall not apply to Bills after their introductio~ or to private Bill, or to the times of meeting and adjournment of the House •. -~-- i f ~· .. ~-· This motion is not a motion with respect to meeting or adjournmnnt of the House, ~ f' this is a motion to suspend Rule 7 which requires notice and the hen. the Leader f l of the House, President of the Cou~cil,~annot,,now say, claim this to be, or try and get this under the g11ise nf being a motion to adjourn the House.

It is no such thing Your Honour to suspend Rule 7 and that requires twenty-four notice pursuant to Rule 29. It is amply supported by refer:nces to Beauschene which I can tive Your Honour should Your Honour so request. And tJhat has just happened now1~he threat to us to end off the debate on the Come by Chance Bill which we have scheduled for today or otherwise we have to work tonight, and we have been going night and day since we started. Discussing arrogant~.

MR.SPEAKER: If another member wishes to make a contribution towards this debate I wilf hold my ruling until he does, I would be pleased to have any assistance that any member can offer • . MR.A.MURPHY(Leader of the Opposition): I too would like to add my support to the bon. member for Humber East I think it is complete ignoring of our rights here -to :Jof ~ I t: ' y.

I give what time ve should be giving to the various pieces of legislation I thimk it is a threat to us particularly this today,now you boys finish this at 6 pllllll. or by golly we will have you back there working tonight. Itthink it is an ... ·. absolute threat.

I do not think !t is any way :!.n the form of democracy, where a Government composed or this House such as it is with so many members on the other side can browbeat,!£ you like, this smaller Opposition here to do things ~ that we feel and know are not in the best interest of this Province, Mr. ·Speaker, and I would like again as I have done i~ many occasions to tell the people of Newfoundland the ~ay that the business of this House is being treated absolutely. i What ~e are doing : earlier today the hon.

Minister of Education made reference · to how difficult it is for these press men to report correctly in Heaven's \ . Name how they do it cover two sessions let us be reasonable. Let us be reasonable. Yesterday the hen. member for St. John's West made a motion that we adjourn at 6 p.m. I did not mind the Premier. We know what the Premier is like as far as politics is concerned. But every one in this MR.SP~~~ The hen. member is speaking to a point of order. MR.MURPHY: I am speaking-to a point of order, Sir, yes, and to stress this point of order is the attitude that every single member on that side is taking.

Every single member, and I do not think it is right, I do not thin~ it is democratically right, Sir, that we should be threatened as we were today by the bon. minister, the Leader of the l:Iouse to say look finish at 6 p. m. or come back here and stay all night and finish it. We go on record as being against this attitude, Mr. Speaker. PREMIER S}I.ALLI-'OOD: I do not know if this is a point of order before the Chair or not. A point of order is moved by the hon. member for Humber East. Speaktng to that point of order, the fact is quite simple, this is private menbersJ. day Wednesday.

Every Wedn ·~sday in this House it is private members 1 day • not the Governments' day. Every other day of the week the Government calls the business and its business comes ahead of everything, but on Wednesday it is private members' day. Noll' ordinarily on lkdnesday the House rises at 6 p.m., this would give the pr~vate members about, right now to give them one hour and fifty-five minutes to 6 p.m. One hour and fifty-five minutes , no two hours and five minutes~ so private members day today would amount to two hours and five minutes.

The purpose .of the motion moved by my bon. friend, the President of the Council, the Minister of Justice is to .extend private members' day to . ll p.m. tonight. This ~s the tyranny of thts Govern.."lent, this is the dirty low do,.,n trii::k o>f this Government to keep the private members' of the right to debate the business -; ------- -- . ---- .. •

• February ·, 25, 1970 l Tape no. 70 Pagel that they bfing before the House - away with such arrogant h)'l>ocrisy. Mi. JOHN C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker on this Point of Order. As the Premier I I I says Wednesday is private members' day. We are quite aware of the rules thou~h he might not think so and on private members' day the House adjourns at 6:00 p.m. to meet again the next day Thursday at 3:00 p.m. If our discussion I I is not finis .hed on Wednesday afternoon on this private members' day it can i continue again on Thursday the following day. The motion stands over. PREMIER SMALL\WOD: Can it? HR.

CROSBIE: It can. If permitted by the majority of this House. PREMIER ~1ALLWOOD: Yes, that is where they are makin~ their mistake. MR. CROSBIE: Or it can corne up-again next ·wednesday, Hr. Speake~. HON. L. R. CURTIS (P~~id~_f the Counci_ll:_ Yes untilnext Wednesday. HR. CROSBIE: Now. ----·- ---- MR. CROSBIE:_ Mr. Speaker, the leader of the House is the hon. the President of the Council. He has not had the courtesy or the decency to even see a member of the Independent Liberal: group or a member of the official Opposition to discuss this proposal with thern.

In what house of assembly or parliament in th• world are there such conditions and circumstances that not even up-decency is shown by the leader of the House to discuss with us, as it is customary at Ottawa and every province to discuss the proposals he is ~oing to make that affect our private members' day and affect the rules of the House. It is unheard of. f~KR S~~~~~OD: It is contempt. MR. CRO~~~ It is contempt. It is arro~ant. It ~ s unbridled tyranny and nothing else. We do not propose to accept it. We are not going to accept ~t.

The rules are clear and if the tyrants on the other side wanh us to debate here morning, noon and night for the next six weeks, ve will go until we drop ODour feefon the floor of this House. _?REMIER SMALL'I.'OOD: Hurrah! Hurrah! Raise the flag • -------- -- ·----

• •-c- ~ MR. CROSBIE: They are not going to stop us from being heard in this House. I ' I I Mr. Speaker we have our rights here. This motion is not in order and I asked that the hon. leader of the House have the common courtesy to discuss with us the bus.iness of the House and who is going to speak and in what order. Not what has been going on here for the last two days. I I Forcing us to speak everyone on the Opposition side with nobody from the I other side speaking. They kno~, if ve do · not speak the motion will die. We have had enough of it. On this Point of Order l support it, Mr. Speaker. BON.

EDW;\_gl~OBE RTS (Min,!.st er of llea]._t h): If I may speak to a f!oint of Order, Mr. Speaker, and perhaps •~thout the impassioned and;I submit, Sir, largely irrelevant eloquence of my hon. friends opposite the hon. ~~mber for St. John's East and St. John's ~est. Mr. Speaker, "i f - I have ever heard an arrogant statement, I ~ill submit my case to your Honour and then your Honour will ·rule. as your Hono"ur sees fit. Mr.

Speaker, the motion made by the hon. the President of the Council in his capacity as House leader is one which I submit is one to alter the sittings of the House, Standing Order 29 which can be found on page C.~nty- one of the Standing Orders of the House, Sir, does apply, and it -was read by my hon. _friend from Humber East. It says: "twenty-four hours notice fihall be given •••••••• except to motions dealing with the times~of·::ll!eeting:.:.a~d adjournment of the House." I submit, Sir, that this is supported by the precedence that this motion is to that affect, to the affect ~\r.

Speaker, if I may be permitted the privilega which the hon. gentleman . claims for himself but is not willing to accord others of at least finishing what I have to say. If the han. gentleman then wishes to dismiss it out-of-hand, Sir, that is his privilege. Mr. Speaker, I submit that this motion is one, the heart of which, the substance of which is to speak to the times of adjournment and sitting of this House. I submit, Sir, the fact that it mentions Sta~ding Order 7 - ~t is merely the means by which the motion and I submit, therefore, that the ~t i

February 25th., 1970 Tape no. 70 Page 3 is in order, Sir. MR. WELLS: -------- ~r. Speaker, may I reply before your Honour an~•ers. I refer your Honour to a reference in Beauschene •• . I -- ~- C~OS~IE:_ Who is the speaker of the House? MR. WELLS: Paragraph ten, paee eleven, your Honour, Beauschene. MR. SPEAKER: Before . we go into this any further, I thank all the hon. members I ' who have spoken for the assistance they have given me.

I will also say that I have had some assistance because I was looking upon this as rather a tricky I question, this Rule 29 Yhich states: " the twenty-four hours n6tice shall be given of a motion for leave to presen~ a bill, resolution or address or for placing a question on the order paper. But this Rule shall not apply to the times of meeting and adjourn.'1lent of the House." Now I had interpreted that that this notion would be in orderfor that reason, because it did not apply to the times and hours of sitting of the House, the meeting and ~ourn~ent of the House.

Now it was pointed out, as I say, I had discussed this matter l-Tith various members of the House and layYers who are not meMbers of the Rouse and ve did not come quite. clearly until we found this a;1d I •rill drat< your attention to page forty of the Beauschene fourth edition, citation fifty-one and here is vhat it says: ''no notice is required for a mtion relating to the times of meeting or adjournment of the House.o; The word, 'ti-r.:es' is trans:liated by the ' French vord t>hich ir:. Er.glish is 'hours' in the French version, Standing Order 51 and this iii important.

Tiley:•use the "ord instead of times, the .,.,.ord 'times' is translateG as 'hours' and it seems, therefore, that if a motion does not relate to the hour but to the day on vhich a House is to sit, a notice must be given.

That decision given by a speaker rose on Hay 21, 1920. ''When the House intends to sit later than 6:00 p.m. on Wednesday or Friday, and at that particular time, wen this was written, the House of Commons sat l-lednesday and Friday this was private members' day. '~en the House intends to sit later than 6:00 p.m. on Wednesday or Friday or later than 10:00 p.m. on other days (our hour is 11:00 p.m.} a motion ~y be made during the sitting and withoot notice having been previously given

that the House do not adjourn at 6:00p.m. or 10:00 p.m. today as the case may be." The reason why no notice is required is that ~tanding Order 41 which is our ~tanding Order 29 which provides for notices to be - not Standing Order 29, no. Our Standing Order is a different number. The reason why no notice is required is that our Standing Order vhich provides for notices to be given says that the rule shall not apply to the times of meeting or adjou~ent of the House.

Now that is the quotation from Beauschene , page forty and I think, ·· and I agree that it relates as it says in our Standing Order 29 that no notice is necessary to the times of meeting and apjournment of the House and consequently I accept the motion, but in accepting the ~tion I would suggest that the ~tion be reworded and the part which deals with the hour on Friday be left out of the motion altogether with the consent of th~ movers • . - ... . MR. CURTIS: Hr. Speaker, I only put that clause about Friday in to let hon. members kno~;r our intentions. MR. WELLS: Point of Order, Mr. Speaker.

We may now have the exact wording. 1 r My Point of Order was raised on the basis of the wording which was to alter / Rule 7 and we may now have the exact \·lording of the hon. the President of the Council's motion and then we could consider whether or not it still offends Rule 7. MR. SPEAKER: The suggestion that I do make. I said that in chansing~the motion and leaving out Friday, I think it would be as well that the House do not adjourn at 6:00p.m. on Wednesday ·and that the Speaker do leave the Chair until the following day. MR. WELLS: ---- · On that Point of Order, Mr. Speaker.

Is it intended for all Wednesdays or just today. If it is a1J, Wednesdays, I submit, Mr. Speaker that it still offends Rule 7 and refers to days rather than hours. MR. SP~ I give it as my opinion and it is referred to today only. This is dealing with one particular issue. Th_ose in favour of the question please say "aye." Contrary "nay." I give it as my .opinion that the ·:.~yes" have it.

February 25th., 1960 Tape no. 70 Page 5 t ~PEAKER: On division is not dividing. ~.9~~E~- The hon. membe.r vill leam, if he is here long enough. HR. SPEAY~R: Order, please. ORDERS pF THE DAY MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, 1 rise to move the motion that is on the Order Paper seconded by the hon. member for Humber East. Mr. Speaker, it is noM I think two years since this House has had a full debate on the Come-by-:Chance 011 Refinery Proj.ect at Cone-by-Chance. I think the full last ex~loration of that matter, that a~reement ~as in May 1967 in this hon. House.

There has been a lot of vater pass~d under the bridge since that time. Now we already had an intilll3.tion today of the attitude ·- the Gove!'l'lt:'.ent is going to take on this motion and it is an interesting o~e. The argument thatis going to be used. The argument that was used when Ouestion 71 and 75 were dealt with by the bon. the Premier. On! he says, somebody dares to ask a question 1 1about vhether there is going to be an AIDA grant or not in effect he says. We are not going to ans"'er it.

We are not goinp, ' to table any iO!on:1atfon: We are no~ going to give any info~~tion until we are ready to give the information. We are the Government. ~!e are in control. '-'e '~<.'ill decide, when tqe information comes out and when it will not, and the excuse we ~ill use is that certain delegate negotiations are underway. Ce.rtain delegate negotiations are always underway with this Government and they are never more underway then when somebody vants to get some information that is of the public interest and importance. That is vhen those delerate negotiations really get going. : Well it will not wash.

We do not accept it and we have a motion, Mr. Speaker, o~ the Order Paper and I will just refer to the motion first. The introduction of the motion point that first there is a great deal of uncertainty as to the exact-status of the project to construct a Core Chemical Plant for the ~~nfuacture of Petroleum products at Come-by-Chance. It refers to the Agreement made as at 23rd day of January, 1968 between the Government and l I I I I I I

• Newfoundland ; Refining Company Limited as was ratified by Act No. 86 of I this House in 1968, It refers to the fact that the Government has lent or caused to be lent to the building company involved in this project an amount not exceeding the s~e of Five Million Dollars for purposes of interim financing of the project.

It refers to the "fact that the Government of Canads appear not to be satisfied that they have received sufficient information to decide vhether ! or not to exPend an amount of approximately Twelve Million Dollars in the ! construction of harbour and dock facilities at Come-by-Chance and to the fact that the Government of Canada have indic~ted that it would like to see a much greater•perc~ntage of the capital needed for the project invested by Shaheen National Resources, Inc., It refers to the fact that it is desirable that members of this Honourable House of Assembly and the public of Newfoundland be fuily informed of .the position with reference to the Come-by-Chance Project.

Then it says: BE IT RESOL\~D that this House direct His Honour the Speaker to appoint a Select Committee to inquire into and to report back to the House with respect to the status of this Project and progress to date including a report as to the amount of moneys spent to date on the Project, details of the expenditure of the amount of Five Million Dollars interim financing • ~~at has the Five Million Dollars been spent on? Has there been an audit done?

The progress to date of the Newfoundland Refining Co~pany Ltd., with respect to meeting the conditions precedent they arr,eed to meet in •• the principal agreement and to report·back with respect to the position taken by the Government of Canada relative to the construction of harbour, dock and water supply facilities and with the Select Committee to have all necessary powers to carry out its duties properly and to report back during the present session. Hr. Speaker, I think it would be useful first to just briefly go over the historr of this project to show why it is necessary ' ,, !

.· • • l f February 25th. 1970 Tape 71 I I MR. J. C. CROSBIE: to show why this is necessary for full disclosure being made to this House of Yhat the present position is? It was in the winter of 1967 that this proposal was first advanced ·\ by Mr. Shaheen to the government. And at that time I was a member of the Government, I I and a member of the Cabinet. And my suggestion, or at least I think it was, the bon. the Premier appointed a committee of Cabinet Ministers to negotiate.the legal details of the agreement, with Mr. Shaheen and his associates. And the members of the committee were the ho~.

Minister of Justice, who was then the . honl~member for Burin; the han. the President of the Council, myself; and the bon. then the Minister without Portfolio, who had no office in the buidling, who is hon. the hon. the membero.for .. Rumber East. That Cabinet Committee met with Mr. Shaheen and his associates when this thing was first suggested, and the House will remember that their ~uggestion was that the whole project be carried out through Crown Corporations of the Governemnt of Newfo~•dland~-the purpose of which was to ensure that the whole project would be tax-free.

The Corporation will not have to pay any corporation " tax to the Government of Canada. We would not get our share of the corporation tax either, becaHSe this would be ~ big inducement. And at a meeting with }!r. Shaheen and his associates certain conditions were agreed to, and there is no question of~ _ ; Cabinet S~crecy involved in it, because these conditions were afterwards tabled in this House. And

an Act was passed at that session, called the "Avalon Core- Chemical Plant Act", it was later revealed the next year. At that ti~e it was proposed that this was to be a refinery,the-.cost I think some $35 million. We will have a capacity of some 30,000 barrels a day. And if we were asked the Qovernment•of Newfoundland, a Province to guarantee our fee that $30 million is raised for the project. Now I do not want to refer to all the conditions, but at that initial meeting the Shaheen agreed for example, to invest in cash in the project at least $10 million in equities.

Otherwords not to loan the money to the project in equity, venture, risk, capital, invested and if it . does not succeed you will lose it, in equity. if And other condition that was agreed to then was that/an aid a grant of $5 million was not available, because of a crown corporation being used, that the Shaheen's people would see that the extra $5 million went in, if it was not forthcoming. And he was to arrange for a private purchase of this $30 million i i I I i loan on a fifteen year bond iss_ue. A private purchase so as not to interfere ·I with · 4 - J 0 J1 I

1 • our credit, the 'credit of the Province, as much as that could be avoj,eJed.. And I it was agreed that Mr. Shaheen would give the committee a feasibility study on the project, that his own conpany had completed. And it was agreed then, that the shares of Newfoundland Refining Company Limited, which is a subsida=Y of Hr. Shaheen and Company would be apothecated to the Government, so that if there was a default, the Government would have to share for ~hem to take that company over. I And it was agreed further, Hr.

Speaker, that as additional security for the Provirice!of Newfoundland, Shaheen Natural Resources Incorporated would ' guawantee to the Government of Newfoundland the principle and interest payments for two years on this fifteen year bond issue. And if there was any default, the ._ parer.t company, Shaheen Natural Resources Incorporated vould be responsible to see that for t~ro years, the principle and interest "ere met; so as the Province would not have to meet it. It would give us two years to look around for somebody else that could operate it. Hr.

Shaheen . said, he could not guarantee the vhole $30 million with his parent company, because it would interfere with .their other operations. And that vas fair enough •. It sounded fair. But, it was agreed then that he ~~uld guarantee this for two years - at least two years payment of prfnciple and interest. And there are other conditions agreed to, and these were tabled in this honourable House. And the Avalon Core-Chemical Plant Bill was brought in and passed. In November 1967, Hr.

Speaker, the ~r.ernber of the committee, I was forvarded a draft agreement that had been prepared by the Shaheen people and their lawyer. And that draft agreement, Mr. Speaker, contradicted, was contrary to, some of the most important points that had been agreed upon and tabled in this House in the winter of. l967. It was a shocking document, as far as this Province was concerned. And on November 17th. 1967 I wrote the Minister of Justice - a six page letter outlining :the position I was going to take on that draft agreement and pointing out where preyious<'conditions had now been changed in this draft agreement.

Now, Hr. Speaker, I am not going to go into all that detail. It suffices to say, that letter of mind and the position I took in a matter called that there be arranged a meeting betveen these Shaheen people, members of the Cabinet Committee, and the Premier tc ~ry and iron some of _these things out. And I would like t 'o say this right here nO'Io1, Mr. Speaker. as far as my experience was concerned, and the Cabinet Committee that dealt with Mr. Doyle 310 ---------------------- --------

February 25th. 1970 Tape 71 ; and Mr. Shaheen - iwhen you dealt with Mr. Doyle, you kne,.• where you were. We woUld have firece disagreements, but he was a good negotiator. If we said, no, we cannot agree to that. I Then why? Althought be wanted it, he would say, all right I can live with it. And then on some other points that we disagreed with, that he wanted or thought should be in, and we said •no". If he explained Yhy it \I'SS important and so on, then we would accept. And I found that Mr.

Doyle was satisfactory to deal with like that, and was not sneeking around behind your back, going to see the H~ad of the Government. Try to get things reveresed, that had been agreed or to try and pass on stories, or try and put the knife between your ·shoulder blades. Mr. Doyle was a gentleman to deal with, I found on that Cabinet Committee. And you ~ould deal with him. -While Mr. Shaheen and his people were different ~uantel of fish. In any event without going into all the details, these things had to be ironed out. And, P~.

Speaker, no one likes to lead a Government or wants to lead a Gove~ent- it is a traumatic experience. But, I consider this project to be so serious and so important for the future of this Province, that I will sincere to do that, If I thought it had to be done. If I could not go along with it. But, naturally one wants to compromise where one can in the interest of everyone concerned. So there was considerable dzbate and discussion as to whether or not ' some of these points that vere presented to this House in 1967 should be changed or not.

But, I will not say who was on that side or this side, I do not think it would be proper, I would not do it unless I was goaded into it, or unless it became some great issue. In any event, Hr. Speaker, it was always· difficult to negotitate for our Cabinet Committee, because the fault of power in the Government ig the Premier. And this is true not only in the Government of Newfoundland to be quite fair about it, but it is true of any Government. It is his administration. So in any matters that were indispute or in disagreement between us and the Shaheen peopl~, of course, lir.

Speaker, the hon. the Premier would have to be - they would have to be referred to _ him. And his tendency would certainly always to side with the prolllOter. Not for any reason at all - not for any bad reason, because the hon. the Premier is so anxious to have developments like this, takes a different approach them. He does not seem to care too much about what they are costing in relation to their benefits and so on, or at least just in my opinion. In any event,, Mr.

Speake .r, from November when I wrote that letter to the Minister of Justice, .and after we had a meeting at Toronto to go over it", from the various points were agreed o·r compromised on, we worked long and hard g Jl r

.. a• •~' • ,f"·~ .. .... - -.· · ~ ..... - .. . -:' • FEBRUARY 25th. 1970 Tape 71 I on drafting the , agreement~ Now this committee, of course, was only able to deal with the needs of technicalities of the matter, we were not the cabinet. And by 1 January 19th. 1968. I think, that draft agreement between us was agreed. Now it was not the agreement that I would have liked to have had, but it was an agreement that I accepted in the interest of trying to say .what the Government and all ~he rest of us. Under that agreement, Mr.

Speaker, No, by the way in that Agreement several import~nt the/things that were changed from the document filed here in 1967 were first ~hat i Mr. Shaheen porposed not to invest.$10 million cash equity. He wanted to change ,that, he wanted to put it in his debenture ·.· In otherwords make a loan, he would loan the project $10 million. · And take subordinated debentures. Well, that was not satisfactory. Because, if anything happened to the project, that was another $10 million the project had, it owned, it would have no ~quity in it.

So that · was agreed that he would take subordinated debentures and as the agreement outlined, if there is any default in connection with the project, the subordin~ted deben~ures do not have to be paid back to Mr. Shaheen who would. own them, or his company would own them. They will not have to be paid back, the principle or the interest. But, still it is not a good a position as equity becaase interest 'has to be paid on them, while the project is going ahead, so that vas one important change.

The second important change vas that if the !ida Grant did not come ~~~fHe $5 111illion did not come through, rather than that as being put in as equity that would be put in as a loan. And another very important change from the original conditions filed here, Mr. Speaker, were that }!r. Shaheen would tlo longer agree to have his parent compnay, his company with assets guarantee to this Province two years payment of principle and interest payment, if there was any default on the project. That vanished. And in the agreement that was passed by this House, that is gone. And I think it is a great pitY ~hat it is gone.

But, I have accepted responsibility for it, the same as everybody else in the Cabinet ~ho agreed with it, or who agreed with the agreement. No~, Mr. Speaker, it is just as well to be quite clear about this · project, and the credit of this Province. Since this is being carried out by means of Crown Corporations of this Government, it seems quite clear to me that if anything happens in this project, if there is any default if it gets underway and there is any default, it will not be just $30 million that we are going to have at risk. It is now a $120 million project.

I understand, it is toing to be a 100.000 a barrel a day refinery. If anything goes vron~ with it, these will -

! be crown corporat~ons, wholly owned subsidaries of tile Province of Government of Newfoundland. And I can assure this House that the creditors of those crOYn I corpor ations, if anything goes wrong will look to this Province for pa}'lllent of everything they are owed, and they will not accept any legal arg~t. by us I \. which will be correct, that we are only legally responsible for $30 million. .i They will say, these are ·you_r ~~ corporations, k:n=, to the agency of the . \ ' GO~nunent of NeWfo\mdland. ·, ·· ~e 'you going to let them default and ruin the credit · I of tbe Provinc;e? So any sensible \tay o·f looking I ·. . .. • '

• MR. J,C.CRo'SBIE: for $120 million. Any sensible way of looking at it - we are behind it Now after January 19th. Hr. Speaker, .when agreement was agreed - there was a meeting held in this final draft of the February sometime at which ·\ there were present members of the Cabinet Committee, the Premier and others, representing the Shaheen people, SOME RON. MEMBER: February of 19687 :1-IR.

CROSBIE:' Yes, February of 1968 Mr.f Speaker, at that meeting it was first suggested - it was not: a Cabinet meeting - there is nothing worng with saying it - it was first suggested that the Government of Newfoundland should go even further than this agreement - should go on to give the promoters Mr. Shaheen and his addociates $10 million interim financing - not the $5 million that this House eventually passed RON. J.R.SMALWOOD (Premier): ar.

Speaker, to a Point of Order I do not know if it a Point of Order or a Point of Privilege - it is not the privilege of the Rouse but it is not my privilege- but the .hon. gentleman now is recounting to the House events occurred in the Budget - in the Cabinet of which he was then a member sworn to secrecy - he is now just calmly telling the House and in the crudest MR. CROSBIE: .This is not a Point of Order MR.

SPEAKER (Noel): Order please, order the hon. the Premier is speaking PREMIER SMALL~ooo : In the crudest possible form just making no bones about it just as though he had never taken the oath - although if he had taken it he is now freed of his oath solemnly taken - he is breaking his oath crudely and it is unbelievable Mr. Speaker, it is unbelievable - I appeal to the han. gentlemans sense of honour as a British subject - he took the oath and he swore on the bible that he would keep secret what happened in the cabinet. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): That this hon.

House can take cognizance of an alleged breach of oath on the part of a member of the House - accepting only the oath of allegiance which was made in this House. If there is any remedy or ·otherwise for breach of any other oath it does not lie in this House and hon. members are responsible for the law of the land - to their own conscience - and to the p'ublic at large for what they do here.· MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on that point let us deal with this point that is going to be brought up time after time MR. SPEAKER: (Noel): Order, order please

• I MR. CROSB!E: Hr. Speaker, the Premier made charges I have broken an oath and there is not a ~ord of truth in it MR. SPEAKER (Noel): Order, I have ruled au· that Point of Order - and PRDIIER SHALLWOOD: ~1r. Speaker, the hen gentleman is one his feet MR. CROSBIE: I do not take orders from you PRD!IER SHALLWOOD: He is on his feet your Honour MR. CROSBIE: .1-m.

SPEAKER': I will take no orders from you Order please - the speaker feels that hon. members should remember the rules of the Hou>:e which are designed for their ow-n protection and for the pro t ection of freedom of speech - for the protection of the right to speak - and these rules have been laid down and as all hen. cembers knows or•know - that to speak you must be relevant to the issue a~d the issue before the House now is the resolution moved by the hen. the member for St. John's West. Please continue MR. CROSBIE: Hr.

Speaker, to get back to my point - just the same fancy I am not an oath breaRer - and this is not breaking any oath - it did not happen in Cabinet - and in any event if the hoi1. the Premie .r will look Up the authorities he will see that on an issue that a Cabinet Minister resigns on he is privileged to reveal ~~hat the disagree !:lent was about an.d how it cam~ about, So this matter }ir. Speake r PREHIER S}!ALL1!00D: I will deal with that - I will deal with that I-m. SPEAKER: Order please, oru~r HR. CROSBI£: Hr.

Speaker, !=ontinuing my speech it was suggested that $10 million in interim fin.Incing should be advaaccd to the pror.1oters of this project. I took the same positioll then a:; I took later on that $10 million bid. I took the pos.ition that under this agreement the hon.

House has passed or ratified by Act number- I think Bill no.65 in 1968- that we·had made evary concession that anyone could possibly dream of asking a sovereig11 Government to make ill order to get this project under way - and that if any group of promoters could .not go and get financing arranged with banks or otherwise - having such an agreement as this in their hands - signed by the Government of Newfoundland we should proceed no further with them - and it would be better for us to do it ourselves because if we are going to take all th~ risks - let us take all the profits.

Why take all the risks and let somebody else have all the cream if there is any. The agreement • that was in February - that issue did not arise again Mr~ Speaker until Uay. The House well knows the results o.f that - when my colleague the hon. member for Humber East and I decided we had compromised 3 <;;::10- . .,

• . l all we were going to - and w'e had compromised plenty, but 10e Yere going to I go no further - and in all conscience we had no choice but to resign if that interim financing Yas to be proceeded Yith.

Not just on that one matter I alone of $5 ' million - God knows this Province nas fired around lots more than \ I $5 million ~ cot just that - it was the act ~ it Yas the point as which - a point comes at which a man must say " I have been pushed as far as I can be pushed - on 100 issues - ZOO ~ 500 I can be pushed no longer - if I continue I will end up a vegetable - the time has come to make a stand" and i we made it and the results are blOw~. I Now to look at this agreement briefly Mr.

Speaker, oh incidentally before I look at the agreenent- one of the points was·that we Yere to be allowed to see the feasibility study that these gentleman had had prepared Mr. Shaheen and his group - and I repeatedly asked to see that feasibility . study. In the winter of 1968, I cannot remember the month now but probably February t\o'o of Mr. Shaheen peopie came to my house one night witn this feasibility study th~t they had prepared - any myself and the Deptuy Minister of Finance, Hr. Groom were 'allo\.'ed to peruse it whf.le they sat in my_ sitting room and watched.

It was such a secret document - an important document that they could not leave it out of their hands. We could not be trusted with it - so I did see this feasibility study. I do not know if any other bon. Hinister did or has since - and it would be wrong for me to say ~hat was in it - as it is a confidential document of theirs - unless pressed to the wall and forced to -but . we did eventually see' it- or I eventually saw it. Now Mr.

Speaker. looking at this agreement briefly if I can be brief on it - we are going to give to the project - the project is being done by Crown Corporationsbut do not let that mislead anyone or fool them. Crow~ Corporations yes - technically - but in actual fact under this agreement these Crown Corporations are controlled and ~rated by Hr. Shaheen through his company - Newfoundland Refining Company Limited. They control these Crown Corporations as long as observe that agreement - so although the form is Crown Corporations - the control is Mr. Shaheen.

Do not fool ourselves on that - and when we hear somebody say that this $5 million was advanced to our awn company huh! hu! nothing to is - the $5 million is gone to our own company.is still in ofir own hands- that is not.the fact- it is gone to the Crown company- the question is who :l.s it pated out to and whp is in cot\trol of the Crown Company under these agreements; So under this agreement adopted by this hon. House we are going to convey the land to them fo .r nothing - nobody worries much about that - land is 41!'

• ., not worth all that much in Newfoundland - and particularly not on the Avalon I Peninsula according to my learned friend the member for Humber East who says we do not have even top soil here. There iE not too much d~wn in Come by I Chance I do n~t think - And under this agreement we are to guarantee,this Province has agreed to guarantee to provide to the building company $30 million.

And Mr.Speaker if the reginery is to be - the refinery has a capacity of 40,000 barrels a day or less - we ~re going to have a first mortgage for our $30 million - but if the project i~ to be as it is supposed to be now 100;000 barrels a day - the Shaheen interests have to raise the $80 million or whatever it is that is necessary in additional money - our $30 million will only be protected by a second mortgage - not a first cortgage - and as I say this is the legal technical part of it - in actual fact as far as the credit of Newfoundland is concerned we are going to be involved in the whole thing.

Under the a"greement

section 3A. we have agreed to supply .:his oil refinery with power a .~ two and one half mills per kilowatt hour Mr. Speaker, the famous two and one half mill power and that ~s power that is going to be delivered at about one half of what it cost~ the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission. That was one concession that was ~ade- two' and one half mill power. Under

section 3E. the Shaheen group are to have the first refusal- if this Government proposes to help anyone else financially establish an oil refinery in Newfoundland for twenty-five years - th~y have to be offered first refusal if such a deal coces up. Well the various agreements to be entered into as i said Mr. Speaker, so that in effect the Shaheen subsidiarY Newfoundland Refining enter into contracts to supervise the cons~ruction of the refinery and for that they are going to get all direct salary cost plus one hundred percent thereof and all out -of-pocket " expenses.

Under 4D, they are to enter into a contract to operate the refine .ry and for that they are going to get a fee equal to twenty-seven and eight tenths percent of the annual net profits of the operating company - but even better Hr. Speaker, under

section 4E, they are to enter into a sales agency agreement with the operating company - unde.r which Newfoundland Refining - the Shaheen subsidiary will sell all the products of the refinery and will receive ·a fee annually of 5.1 percent of the amount of the gross sales of the operating company. In other words _ Mr. Speaker, whether the whole project makes any money or not they will receive a fee of 5.1 percent of the gross. sales. And 31

• _ __ ,,.,,_1_ ~ & refine~ of this size is going to have gross sales of at least $100 I million a'year- more likely $120 or $140 million a year - so that Newfoundland Refining under that clause alone will as a minimum - if the · I facility is operating and selling anything make $5 million in a year - and I would venture to guess probably have their investment of $10 million back in one year - but certainly two. So this is not an ungenerous agreement as a sales agency agreement. NJw Hr.

Speaker, under clause 5, of the agreement we passed - the I I Shaheen in~erests had to agree to certain conditions precedent - that they would meet before th~ Province became obliged to meet to carry out it's undertaking. They had to arrange fer example to sell the $30 million \ . Government loan - private placement for a term of fifteen years - only conduct negotiations after consulting with us - they have to submit to 'the Government evidence satisfactory to the Government that they have assets to the value of $10 million to put in as equity. Satisfactory to the Government / and the question 1 asked here Mr.

Speaket - is - who is the Government? it to be evidence satisfactory to the bon. the Premier? It ·says the Government. That they have I Is I .j j

.. • I February 25;, 1970 Tape 73 Page 1 GC says the Government, that they have asket:s : .ef $10 ,tilillliiiil • These assets - this $1C million can be - they are going to get subordinate debentitures for them, and the~ thEY bavaato have take or pay contracts for the sale of the product of at least sixty percent of the product. They have got to _present proof of that, evidence satisfactory to the Government, and there are various conditions present like that. ! They have to show that they have the crude oil arranged for at least I I sixty percei1t of it, for five years, and in

Section 5 (j), before our Government is permitted to issue the bonds, the $30 million in bonds, refining is to furn1.sh to the Government and opinion of an indepenlient' person, approved by the Government confirming the feasibility of a project, So, naturally, Mr. Speaker, one of the thoughts that comesteo mind,is, hall an independent person being appointed to investigate the feasibility of this whole project and has he made a report - a feasibility study prepared by the promoters, who are trying to promote a project, is one thing, Katurally, they Are going to be on the optimistic side.

They are trying fo promote something. They are not going to come in and give you a feasibility study, showing the whole thing as ridiculous. No. They are only ~oing to bring in the study that shows the whole thing is sensible aud proritable. You cannot accept that. No Government should accept that, Mr. Speaker. A Government should always have independent experts who have no connection with the promoters concerned, to make feasibility studies and to check on our behalf, and this certainly has not always being done by our Government. So, it will be· interesting to see whether this is done and what it turns up.

So. bef~~e our Government is committed, all those conditions have to be met, which was one reason why my. hon. frl!md _from Humber East and myself accepted the agreement. Now, another impprtann point to remember, Mr. Speaker, considering this motion is that you can have all the agreements in this world that you want. and they can be legally perfect, e~ery detail covered, and the s I I question arises, "Who is going to check the enforcement of those agreements"? Who is going to see that they are carried out? - Who is going to police them1

• . , February 25, 1970 I Tape 73 Page 2 C6 Are the people responsible going to care about it once it gets under ' constructi~n, and a massive project like this of $120 millioni It effects this ~rovince so intimately. At the very least, you will need a team of experts if this is to be done properly, keeping check day by day as the construction of the ' refinery gpes on - ~inancial people, accountants, and so on, checking every step of . the way to ; ~ee that the agreements are being carried out and that cur interests are protected; not enough just to have the agreement.

We must also have people willing to enforce the agreement and release them. That was the pos:l.tion, Mr. Speaker,- some of the main features of the agreement that was passed in this House. Now, Mr. Speaker, . another sore point- there is always a snre point with me - was tha. t~ this whole project was to be done through Crown Corporation, which vould mean there would be no corporation tax, which means that automatically,, that if you make profits, your profits are doubled.

There is a corporation tax once you earn over $35,000.00 a year of fifty percent - fifty-two percent, and if this project is profitable as was indicated, ·ac project like~his, very profitable, half of those profits would ordinarily go in tax were now not going to be taxed. Why would not the promoters agree to invest the part they were saving in taxes back in this Provincel They would not do it, and the best ve got :la a "best efforts clause" - tllat they would use their best efforts. to develop other industries once the refinery vas underway. That is the best we were able to get. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the question of interim financing came up again early in May of 1968, when an bon. friend aud I di&covered that there vas a clause in the legislation to come before the House that vould provide for this interim financing, and the rest of it is known here. We apposed it. No agreement - we could not reach an agreement vith the Premier, and we resigned. 3 2 .. 0 1 .· I I J

.. • Febru~ry 25, 1970 Tape 73 Page 3 GC We took the position, Mr. Bpe&ler, that this agreement had alteady made very, very generous concession to these promoters, and that ~f we were going tC be akked to take any more chances - we the people of Newfoundland - we were going to be akked to teke anymore chances or risks in this enterprise, that we had the right to ask for something more than 300 or 350 jobs at Come-by-Chance.

We have got the hope of getting, perhaps, I other petro~chem±cal industries if that refinery goes there, but the only thing we are certain of is the refinery with 300 or 350 jobs a~d many of those are technic~! jobs that Newfoundl~~ders may not be suitable for until they are trained.

That is all we are sure of, and now, after all the concessions I have described in that document, back come the pro~oters to ask us to take another risk to advance them $10 million - $5 willian, subsequently, to go on with preparations and so on, and that woul~ have to be advanced before they made any other cgnditions precedent in that agreement.

We took the position, only if they agree that we are going to go into this thing on a joint venture, that we will share the profits, or only if they agree that they will put percentage of the profits back here in Newfoundland and . that they are obliged to do that as some other major concession. Otherwise, no. Why should we make concession after concession after concession and get nothing back for it. It is just against human nature to accept.- $120 million and all of the credit that we are putting into it and the rest that we are putting into it and our only certainty is perhaps !50 jobs at Come-by-Chance.

It did not wake any sense. It would be better for this Province to go ahead and do it on its own and hire the experts or try to make some better deal or get someone _ else, some other group, if they would not agree and if we took a hard position, Mr. Speaker, and had said, "Look here, this is our position, and that is it", I have no doubt what would have happened. They would hav~ agreed, they would have had to. But that is history, so we had to retire from the Cabinet. Nov, Hr. Speaker, this motion is a motion essentially asking for I I I

• I February 25, 1970 Tape 73 I Page 4 GC information on the status of that project, since. MR. CALLAHAN; Mr. Speaker, I gather the bon. gentleman has now ppp,ed to the motion - ,to another phase - that he has completed his recounting of the background of the agreement, and this leads to ~ question, Mr. Speaker. Is it not so that the hon. gentleman has left out one vital important matter which is necessary to complete the accounting, mainly that after he ' r hz.essed the ~ouse, he and the hon. the member for Humber East voted for the ' ' agreement, in favour of the bill. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, has not the bon. gentleman been listening to me? Has he not been listening to ~r.e at all? I have not said that - I have said today when I started my remarks, that I accept responsibility for this agreement. Has he not been listening to me? MR. F. ROWE: That is not the question. MR. CROSBIE: And not only that, in May of 1968, Hr. Speaker, the bon. member for Humber East and I ~oted against that clause that provided interim financing and cbsta!Lned on the second reading o£ the lrote oi the bill. MR. F. ROWE: Oh no, you voted fcir>tt.

PREMIER SMALLt'OOD: And 1 shouted across, "Thank you, tbauk you, for voting fort&." MR. SPEAKER: Or~er, ofder~ llREMIBR. SMALL';o.'OOD: Both voted for rl;t; in the second reading. Oh, now, try to say "No". MR. CROSBIE: We do not care, even if you are right. PREMIER SMALLWOOD~ I am right. MR. CROSBIE: Yc~ are not right. ~~lER-SMAhLWOODt I am right. MR. CROSBIE: You are so often wrong. Mr. Speaker, f~~ f~sord is easily checked and the vote on that occasion can be checked. MR. -~~!ORR: The bon. gentleman ep6Ki far at lease an hour in favour of the bills. PREMIER SMALLWOOD: And voted for it. MR.

CROSBIE: The hon. gentleman thinks he is making such a great point. Will you let me speak? X •~an.~-l"hava-~tlil floor. Nov, I say that we l \ t I

• February 25,• 1970 Tape 73 l'age !I GC I abstain on second reading, but I will assume for a moment that you were correct which is a terrible assumption to make, and one is not safe to make, but you could be. Supposing you are? I have already said that the agreement that I have just:,_. described here, we were involved-in,. that va~accepted responsibility for and we-- PREMIER SMALLWOOD: In the Cabinet, and after c~ossing the floor. MR. CROSBIE: : and we resigned on the interim financing.

So I just described the generous !concessions tkat are in this bill, and since said that ta go• further into-interim financing, was too far. MR. F. ROVE: Subsequently to ' that, the hon. gentleman voted for the bill from that side. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the record is easily checked and I am giving ~ version of• the record. SOME HON. MEMBER: That is exactly what it is, a vers1oa. MR. CROSBIE: And my·version of the record is that we abstained on second reading and voted against the interim financing clause of that bill, and it is easily checked. PREMIER SMALLWOOD: Voted for it, voted for it.

Both of the hon. gentlemen. SOME RON. MEMBERi Does not the bon. the Premier remember the argument? MR. SPEAKER: Or.der, please. SOME RON. MEHRER: Mr. Speaker just addressed the Chair that there is to be no cpnversation across the floor. These rules are w~ll known to all bon. members. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker. I am going to press on now. because that is just trawling another one of those red herring •• MR. CROSBIE: We will have the matter checked later today and we will see who is right. MR. CALLAHJl~: Mr. Speaker, we resigned to our regret. Let us see what has happened since.

In later in the year·l968, a controversy broke out about this Crown Corporation, about the whole thing being done through Crovn Corporation. The Government of Canada decided that this ta& loophole had to be stopped. 1. - ~ ... ' ' l \ 1 J z . ..?

• I February 25~ 1970 Tape 73 Page 6 GC . Nov, 'under this agreement I vas describing - these are all Crown Corporations, :_ but the Provi:tce of Newfoundland has given the Shaheen Natural Resources people an option - if there is no default under the agreement, then they have up to fifteen years to exercise their option. Onee our $30 million is repaid, they can exercise their option and they buy the share~ of all those companies for $2000.00, but legally, technically, I ail during that fifteen years, these would be Crown Corporations, owned by ! the Government , and would pay no taxes.

The Government of Canada decided that this was a tax loophole they had to stop because if this was adopted, all across t>•-:? Canada, the drain oon their treasury would be tremendous, and they decided to introduce legislation to the effect that if a crovn corporation, the Crown Corporation get any _private~onncern, an option on its share, it would not be treated as a Crown Corporation for tax purposes or to that effect, and there was quite a furore about that.

On October 24, 1968, tn· tlle ·."\'otonti~.-Dloba 1al:ld'JtaU ·; Kr·; Roy Furm.ark., who is an executive vice-president of Shaheen's said that thi~ would not effect them in any way and they would go forward and they would not get depreciation allowance on the refinery, in any event, and they would qualify for an aid - a grant of $5 million and $12 million for habbour ~evelop~ent and a ~uick tax write up, so it would not effect them and they would continue In fact, he said the~, that transshipments would begin next suamer. That was October of 1968 - transshipments would begin next summer at Co~e-by-Chanee.

The $5 million Mr. Speaker, we· know from newspapers 'reports, was borrowed by the Covernment.or by the industrial development corporation and agency of the Government from the FrankUn Bank down in New York, was provided to the Provincial Building Co. Ltd • ,___.. I r I I I f I J I

February 25, 1970 Tape 74 Page 1 Provincial Building Company Limited, a Crown corporation, and so we understand • paid out by that Crown corporation. And part of this motion asks for a select committee to report back on what the $5 million has been spent for. Provincial Building Company Limited has spent it. They have spent it. They have given it to someb.ody. ·Some of it must have been given to the Shaheen compani~s. Some of it has been paid out direct and in other ways. I It is now time the report was made on where that $5 million was spent. Pt·ovincial Refining Company Limited, Mr.

Speaker, is a company which has three directors, according to the 1968 return -The hon. the Premier, the han. President of the Council and the then Minister of Justice, who is now the han. Member from Burin. Now they probably have changed since. The hon. member for Burin would not be a director now. And it is interesting to note that the quorum for a meeting of tbe directors is two. PREMIER SMALLWOOD: He is not. He resigned by sending me a telegram. He telegraphed me his resignation from that board. MR. CROSBIE: He is still on the board, technically. PR~~IER SMALLWOOD: He telegraphed me that he is not. MR. T.A.

RICKMAN: If I a~, I can speak as a director. HR. CROSBIE: In any event, Mr. Speaker, this $5 million is arranged as a loan for the Provincial Building Company, and it has been spent, and we are entitled,Lbelieve, to know where it was spent and ho'f.1 it was spent and on vhat it was spent and who spent it. And 'f.1e understand that this loan was due at the end of December. It was renegotiated once and had to be re- negotiated again to December 31st.

It was borrowed by the Industrial Development Corporation at about nine p~r cent, fell ' due on June 30 and was renegotiated at an interest rate of between ten and eleven per cent. We have not heard whether that loan has been renogiated past December 31, nor what has Newfoundland Refining Company Limited is Mr. Shaheen's company - these are the Crown Companies. Then in the January 1969 Globe and Mail Mr. Speaker, there is an

article there by Lyndon Watkins discussing the project, quoting officials of Shaheen Natural Resources & Corporate, who said they are hoping for a late 1970 date for the start of production. They had received five bids .. ; •

. ' ~ .. . fo.r construction now estimated the cost $108,000,000 of total financing amounting to $120,000,000. And ve ·are told then that $3,000,000 in this

article was spent on the site. $1,000,000 for steel and foundations for the first ~o crude oil storage tanks. $2,000,000 for slight preparations, services and temporary Hr. Otto Lessing was quoted as saying =ajor construction will begin in the Spring, the Spring of '69. $80,000,000 of $120,000,000 total was raised in the United States - $30,000,000 to be raised by Newfoundland, $10,000,000 in equity. The bon. the Premier was quoted as saying the Government would prefer not to guarantee our $30,000,000 during the next two years, but it would be honoured as a co=mit=ent in not =ore than two years. And Mr.

Shaheen has signed a ten year agreement with British Petroleum Li=ited Supply crude oil. And then later Mr. Speaker, in February 1969, there is a series of articles in the Toronto Daily Star written by one Bob laller about the whole project and what had happened. These articles say that three hundred and · fifty workers would be employed there when the refinery is ready. Mr. Shaheen described Mr. Edgar Benson the Federal Minister of Finance as a "foolish fellow", doing the bidding of.Imperial Oil. ,/ And in the final article, there was an interesting comment. Mr.

Homer Vight, president of Newfoundland Refining Company Lnmited, when asked why a Compaoy that talked in ter=s of hundreds of millions as Shaheen Natural Resources did, would need $5,000,000 to sta~t work on the project - ans~er we ~ere strapped. That was a frank answer. Ve were strapped. In the October 9 edition of the Evening Telegram of '69, they quote fro= the October Newfoundland Bulletin. This is how we have t~ get our information on the project.

The Newfoundland Bulletin they are quoting fro=, but the figures ' must be pr.esumably correct, as there has never been an exaggeration in that very worthy docmnent. ·. The story gave a br~akdown of expense·s to date and what has been acco=?lish~d at the project. N~w when this went in the Newfoundland Bulletin · ·. in October, the bon. the Bre=ier never said, delicate negotiations ·are under way, we cannot put this in the Newfoundland Bulletin.

No, No, the delicate negotiations are_uuder way when we want to bring it up in the House of Assembly and ask for information for the public, that is when they start their talk of delicat:e negotiations. The ·Bulletin lists money spent- it says $8,000,000 has already ·been spent in Come-by-Chance. Some of ·.the tbi'tlg·s. is surveying of the site, removal 3l.C

• ' l . of bog and so en, $869,000- Construction utility system $275,000. Construction ' eamp $120,000. Two.crude storage tanks, $2.781 and so on and so on. P~cey I McCallum, core boring, $146,000. This is a peculiar one actually, Racey McCallum & Bluteau Ltd. have completed a core boring program, and so on $146,000. I Frederick R. Harris supervised their work and prepared design and tendering documents for the wharf, and got $270,000.

Probably some technical reason for that. \· Tenders for the wharf have been received from international firms I contracts could ,be awarded when a decision is made as to how the project woUld I proceed. Desigrl engineering was dcne by the Thyssen Group and Ralph M. Parsons & Company. An interesting item and this is the one that we should be interested in seeing what is was spent on. Overall project development expenses and cost of marketing development: $3.200. This is all in the Newfoundland Bulletin.

It was not said then that discussing the project or giving information on the project would be harmful to delicate negotiation. And I am sure that negotiations have been going on in connection 'with this project since May of 1968. In the December 1969 "Globe and Mail" Hr. Shaheen denies that there . is any financing trouble. He talks about the Franklin Bank loan. And Hr. Blake of the company - Hr. Oscar Blake - said: "everything is set we are only waiting for the bid procedure on the dock t'o be completed, the Federal Government builds all docks in Canada." That is what he thought.

The Federal Government builds all docks in Canada - not according to the Ron. Mr. Arthur Lang, not this one apparently - we do not know for sure. _We only know What we hegrd reported in the newspapers. Hr. Blake said that between eight and nine million dollars had been spent. He said: "none of the $5 million inter-financing went to cOliiJ)anies in the Shaheen group". It would be interesting to know whether that was so or not. January 19, 1970, the Evening Telegram "The way was cleared within the next couple of days for the final signin? of all agreements covering a refinery.• according to Hr. Otto Lessing. Hr.

Shaheen expected to reach an agreement with the Federal Government tomorrow over the building of the oil dock. th~refinery site. That was the next day- that was January 19. And there is a bit more in it. Telegram January 22 - "Ottawa is not satisfi!!d vith oil dock expenditure 3L7

I I The Newfoundl~nd Government. and promot~r John Shaheen have not convinced the I I Federal Govern~ent that it should invest $12. million to build docking facilitt~s for the $120. million Newfoundland Refining Ccmpany Li~ited, Come-by-Chance I Oil Refinery. Public Works Minister Arthur Lang said Wednesday in the Rouse of Coll!lliOnS. He said, " the refinery is being built by private investors, supported \ by the Provi~cial Government. Ottawa has been asked for help but sought more ' information to justify the expenditure to prove that federal participation was i imperative.

Sof far that has not been forthcoming" he said. I Fe~ruary 2, 1970, Telegram - report from Mr. Arthur Lang again:. ''The Federal Government is not satisfied that Shaheen natural resources is sinking enough of its awn money into this proposed $120. million Refinery. In a telephone interview Mr. Lang said "this is the reason the Government has refused to put up the $12. million for docking facilities at the site without further investigatio~ Mr.

Lang said Ottawa would like to see a much greater percentage of the capital invested by the company. ~·f a man can start something with very little money, he said, it makes people think twice. It makes some people think twice, he should have said. Mr. Lang denied that his being called a stupid jackass had anything to do with this. We 'allremember the hon. the Premier called him a stupid jackass. And I believe Mr. Lang .when be denies that this had anything to do with it. He said the decision was made by the Treasury Board, and not by his department. It would be interesti~g to know what he recommended.

And in the Telegram of February 23, .he again repeats~ He says, "~hat if and when Shaheen Natural Resources re-applies for Federal assistance, the Company's financial involvment will have to several times what it was in the original proposzl. Ottawa turned do~~ the first request because it vas not satisfied the Company was not putting up enough of its own money. Mr. Lang, in an interview with the Telegram declined to specify Shaheen's outlay. It said it vas considerably less than the $12. million requested from the Government for docking facilities. To qualify for federal assistance in any deal of this kind Mr.

Lang said, it must be proved that the operation is economically viable and th~t there is a real earnestness on the part of the developer; He said, Shaheen's relatively small investment indicates the project does not satisfy either of

• these prerequisites. That Mr. Speaker, is apparently the position that the I Government of Canada has taken in this matter, two years almost after this Bouse passed the agreement - af~ er our $5. million inter-financing has been I spent, according to the Government of Canada to qualify for federal assistance "it must be proved the operation is economically viable, and there is a real earnestness on the part of the developer. And he has not proven that to them. And we have not proven that to them.

But this Government apparently does not I \ ;require this as, a qualification, or else the qualification that this administration I accepts is far :different from thequalification that this Government of Canada I expects, or the evidence it gets - or the people who advise it. So our motion Mr. Speaker, our motion asks.that your H~oour direct that a Select . Committee be appointed to look into these matters and to report back. This does not necessarily have to be a Select Committee.

If the Government get a full explanation of everything - this should best be done before a Committee, whether or not a Select Committee or Standing Committee. There is no reason why the Government of !=.!Us Province should not be prepared to come before a Committee of this House, and outline in detail just where this yroject is nov, what has happened, what position the Federal Government has taken - where our $S.million has gone, and how and why and where. What the progress is to date, and when in actual fact, is it li~ely to start, or whether or not we are going to be asked for further concessions.

In considering this industry, ~ri Speaker, and what this Government should or should not do to try to get it established here7 I have already described the many generous features of the agreement we entered into. And I suggest that !f an opportunity comes for renegotiating that agreement. If the promoters have to ask for any more concessions, or any more help from us, that is the time for our Government to say "gentlemen this is now what we will do, you want more help, do you?

You want the Newfoundland people, that four, five hundred thousand souls with all their problems, revenues, and developments ~nd what they need here in Newfoundland - you want them to put up more to help this project. All.right gentlemen, now we are going to devise a new bargain. ·we are going to take at least a fifty percent share, depending on how much they are looking for, perhaps more of this project. So that if it is a big money maker, as you seem to think, the Government of N~foundland have set a losing revenue on it. We will gain it directly, we will get half of the millions that it might

February 251 1970 I Tape 174 Page 6 or propose to -~ke - hundr.eds of lld~lions. That is the least we could require i! they need any more assistance, because it wou~d give us a ch·ance to drh·e a ' I I I ' bard barg.tn ourselves and s~y vhat we vould do if they need any further assista~ce. As it stands nov Hr.

Speaker, the tal\gible benefits of this refinery are one \ · I some three bund~ed and fifty jobs, and they will not aU be for Newfoundlanders. \ And that means that ve are going ~o invest or tie up our credit for about three and thirty' . hundred to three hundred and fifty thousand dollars a job for that refinery. I What could we. do with three hundred and fifty thousand dollars to I create j.obs in 'Newfoundland ·. ]J6 ·-

--·---.~ ---···· What could be do with $350,000 to create jobs in Newfoundland in other ways? 'It may or may not result in other petro-chemical industries coming from it. One significaqceabout the whole project is that it is highly capital intensive the oil industry, the petro-chemical industrr. In other words you have to have massive amounts of capital and employs relatively few people. I If the Federal government is not going to spend $12 million on the harbour, dock and wharf facilities, where is the $12 million to come from?

Is it going to come from DREE funds that the Government of Newfoundland could otherwise use for other worthy purposes in Newfoundland or will the Government of Newfoundland be asked to put it up itself entirely ~r have to or has it been requested to? It is a highly competitive business, the oil business. It does not use any of our natural resources. It is going to have lots of competition presumably from the new refineries in Nova Scotia, Montreal and the rest of it. ~e have a great deal to use, if it is not sue~essful and it is successful for a year or two under the present agreement, ~~.

Shaheen has very little to lose. As I say at $100 odd million a year for two years, he would have his $10 million back on that aspect of the thing alone. It ~s a highly technical industry, .Mr. Speaker, the oil industry, which means that there is alway~ a risk that there is going to have to be further great amounts invested as oil technology changes. The nature of the refinery might have to change. The Shaheen natural resources is not a large company. It is not one of the oil giants. It is a company that believes in leverage. In other words Mr. Shaheen is a promoter.

He is a smart operator with little money of his own, but is available to him, but with t,i:tat lHtl~ he operates to get leverage and that is what he has done in this instance. With $10 million supposedly to go into the project as working capit~l when it is all constructed, with the promise of that~ Mr. Shaheen ha5 levered $5 million interim financing from us and has arranged with us for another $30 million in loans and guarantees and using that has gone on to arrange to sell another $80 million worth of bonds to other people probably oil companies who want to sell their crude.

All this done with very little financial resources, with a lot of knoWhow, with a lot jJ I .· :r

··' ·.· ·,· .February 25th., 1970, Tape no. 75 Pa~e 2 of leverage. Not a rr~ssive oil company. All done with a lot of leverage. A $120 million project of which the Shaheen people are putting in about seven decimal six percent towards the project, ~·hen the $10 t:~illion I!Oes in . There are fast write-offs. Exempt from building materials tax, except from property tax, the land to be free, the electrical power two and a half mills per kilowatt hour and with these various fees, it is quite a good d~l for Mr. Shaheen, if it goes ahead. All these questions arise, Mr.

Speaker, ·all these questions arise that should be ans1.1ered. They should now, \Jhen the House first opens as to what has happened since this matter was last fully debated in this House and since this House was last open. We have all these newspaper reports. One in contradiction of another. Every month practically for the last two years, we heard it goinl! ahead now. It is going ahead now. It is going to be this spri~~- It is going to be this fall. It is going to be so and so. It is going to be signed tomorrow. Until occasionally a fact comes out that cannot be withheld. It cannot be covered up. Mr.

Arthur Lang could not be shut up. Th::!re was no way of shutting him up. when he was asked as to what the status of this $12 million for the wharf was. That was a fact I I 1 that came out. Mr. Shaheen has described one of his corporative objectives to u~ximize ) profit with rapid pay back on a minimum or equity investment. There is a Harvard Business ~chool study done of this project which is very interesting. ·.Apparently the Harvard Business School, the research people there, the students have to do these projects and one was done on the Shaheen ~Jatural Il.-asources eompany Incorporated.

Shaheen Natural Resources i ·s a high!y l~verar~d holding and operatinr. comoany and so on. It goes on to analyse the company and Yhat its project is here in Newfoundland. The company's strate~ is to maximize their profits with a ~inimum investment. That is a !!OOd strategy for any company. ~le look for projects that have fast oay-outs and that we can get five and ten financinF which he explained was eir.hty percent, rwenty percent equity. Two and a half mill power is mentioned in this report. As a result of the Government, hydro-electric

power development, hydro-electric is available at two and half mills per kilowatt hour, a rate "'hich can only be ap·proached in some areas of the Pacific coast. In the }!id~Hest electric po"'er costs approximately t:o~enty mills- On the Gulf Coast it costs approximately seven mills per kilo....,att hour. One of the favourable aspects of the refinery proposal was the financing arrangements that were available. That is for sure. In this type of industry, that is the oil industry where technology changes so rapidly, you cannot afford a twenty year pay-out. We need our money back vithin four or five years.

The oil industry is so highly technical and changes so quickly that the oil companies and oil promoters, when they start a project want to get all their money returned within four or five years, not fifteen. Another thing we have done is agreed- - a fifteen year bond This project was successful. Our investment in it could be paid off in four or five years at the .maximum. These are fifteen years bonds, because it was planned to be a crown corporation "'here no taxes would be paid and the money would be rollin~ in.

A refinery after fifteen years, because of the technological changes there might be very little use for it. Do not forget by the way that under the agreement the Shaheen company does not have to exercis' "/ ;' its option. It is up to it, whether it wants to buy the shares or not at the end of fifteen years or anY"'here in between. Well there are other matters that could be mentioned but there will be other speakers, Mr. Speake!.

All that this resolution asks for is an opportunity for the public of Newfoundland throuRh a committee of this House to take a good hard look at this project no"r to see what are the facts. Never mind the slogan, never mind the pro~ress or perish or the pqtriotism that we are going to be in undated vith as this session goes on. Never mind I the ' develop or perish, never mind irrelevancy suc!t as the hon. members over here hate anybody on the other side. They do not. They do not hate any lovable old characters over there at all. It is not the question. \.'hat is at state is the future of this Province, Mr.

Speaker. We are to be treated like bad boys that we dare to brin~ in a resolution. I can forecast what is coming, because he tipped his hand in the question period - the han. gentleman lipped his hand in the question period. Delegate negotiations! The hair is ~oing t I !

I to be pulled right out of his head - deleyate negotiations are underway. They ~ere underway. . I Then you brought this resolution in, ~hich is against the public interest, he is going to say. You have done a terrible thing a terrible "crime to Newfoundland. That is what we vill hear. Well we do not accept it. We do not agree. We are m~mbers in this House, on this side whose obligation is to represent our own consciences and the public. Our function is to criticize vhat we do not ap,ree with. To praise what we do, and on matters of this importance to Newfoundland, ~I.

Speaker, I cannot see how it could even be argued that this information should not be forthcoming and the best:place for it is before a committee of this .House who should be able to exacine the people it wants to examine in connection with the project. Cross-exami~e them,.ask for reports, take evidence, lo~k at studies, get the facts and report back. That is all the resolution asks, Mr. Speaker. It points out the areas of uncertainty. ~~at information is needed? It says that it is desirable that we and the public be informed and suggests a select committee.

That is our function, when this House meets and this House, Mr. Speaker, only meets for eight or ten w~eks a year. The Government 1operate twelve ~~nths of the year. ~ere are , 8,000 or 9,000 Ciyil Servants wacking up the facts to them, investigating things for them, ad¥ising them. The House meets for eight or ten weeks and during that eight or ten ~eeks, there is nobody on the GovenL~ent side of the House going to start a fuss about give '1 the public information on this, or give it on that or asking questions. I re~ember when I was on that side last year an ordeal for me over there last year.

I had the audacity to put two motions on the order~paper and the han. the Pr~mier nearly went out of his skin vhen they came up for debate. ~.e audacity of a priva~e member on the"Government side of the House to put motions down for debate on private members' day. Imagine any of the backbenchers on the Government si~e having that audacity. That is what ve need in this House is more adacity and tenacity and obscenity. We have the right to ask for this information. Mr. Speaker, I am al~ays very, very pleased and delighted to hear from the hon. the Minister of bog lands. (Laughter). Mr.

Speaker, he is still rambling on. Ue never gets stopped by the bo~

• I I Mr. Spe ~ker, I think I have made most of the points that I I wanted to make. l will just conclude by saying this: that our motion ask&·:_. fa~ information. It does not condemn the project. The motion does nothing for or against the project. It asks for the~: public of Newfoundland to be told. t~ere it is now and just to have this basic ' information on a $120 million issue, that is one of the largest and most important that this Province has ever being en gaged in. I :ri urge, Hr. Speaker, all hon. members to support the motion. I (Applausfl) • PREMIER S~LL~~p~ Hr.

Speaker, I do not think·there is much need for me to say very much, because I have already indicated to the House earlier I today the Government's rejection of the motion moved. We reject the motion because of the fact that the information sought to be obtained in the motion through the appointment of a select committee to receive the inform.atic is to be brought to the Uouse in any case after the completion of negotiations and negotiations that are not, as the hon. gentleman who just sat down quoted me as saying, delega~e negotiations, but very important negotiations and negotiations that a~e definitive 355

• I PREMIER SY.ALL!-:00!.': the fi::alizatior. of very l:Jng dnr..m negQtiations that }-,;::-,rC! gone on for years. Mr. Speaker, · these negotiations have gone on for years for the simple reason that they were not 'With Standard Oil Company~ :-; or their Canadian Branch Imperial Oil. They were ~ot with Shell Oil, they "ere not with Texas Gulf, they vere not with one of the vast majors in the oil industry, which is I think, the greatest industry on the earth,containing the biggest companies and the greatest eEOunt of capital investment, requiring staggering amounts of money to operate at all.

These negotiations were not with such vast oil empires, they were with a relatively small firm. If we had been able to negotiate an oil refinery of thi& size at Come-By-Chance, with such oil majors, the negotiations would have been much shorter, all such companies would have wanted froC! the Government wpuld be the piece of land at Come-By-Chance. And we have lots of land. The use of the harbour, and there is lots of harbour there. And labour, they would not have wanted any money f~om~the Newfoundland Government. They would not have wanted any financial guarantees from the Newfoundland Government.

All they would have ~anted is the perfectly ordinary ki~d of concession that they get everywhere they go in the world. Unfortunately, we ~ere not negotiating with such a company, because there was no such company that showed the le~tinterest in putting a great oil / refinery here in Newfoundland.

When ~e were trying to get our first oil refinery in this Province, I was trying, I tried for years, I tried Imperial Oil, I tried Irving 011, I tried British _,rB.A, - British American Oil to presuade them to build a refinery in Newfoundland, to.serve Newfoundland, to refine here in Newfoundland, the oil,the gasoline and so on that Newfoundland would comsume. Just a small oil refinery - not much more than an old-fashioned kettle plant, making ten,fifteen,~twenty tQousand barrels.a day. No 0, Sir, not interested - the answer was no. I did succeed in getting John Shaheen.to do it.

And he did it in Holyrood, now it was only a small plant. It started I think at 8,000 barrels a day. It is now up to I think 12,000 or 15,000 barrels a day, creeping up as it sales increase here in Newfoundland and in the Province of Quebec. They did not need any financial guarantees from Newfoundland, because it was such a small enterprise. And }rr. Shaheen at that time was the principal shareholder in the English Oil Company in England, known as Ultramar. '.'.1 Ultramar did not need the financial backing, and they built the oil refinery. They did need some help, and we gave them that help - namely; that for

twenty years after the oil refinery would be introduction, the Newfoundland Government .would buy no oil or stove oil or heating oil or nay petroleum products except from that conpany, provided their prices were competitive. Now this is the only help they .:'skeu, ancl the only help they were given. Therefore, \:hen Hr.

Shaheen, ~1ho until just before th:1t, just before he came, was the principal shareholder, the controlling shareholder and director of Ultramar of which Lord Tangley is now the Chairman, came to us and said, I think there is a great opportunity for Newfoundland or Nova Scotia to have a great Core-Chemical Plant. That is an oil refinery of a kind of a type of a sophinticatcd, co~plicated, ~adem, scientific type of production, that would produce not only jusc simple kerosene or simple gasoline to run cars, and trucks, but the core stock for petro-chemical plants.

When he came to us and said, I see a great opportunity there. l~e began to negotiate with him. But, negotiating with him is quite a different thing from negotiating with the great giants of the world, who have thousands of millions of dollars - thousands of million of dollars to spend. Standard Oil, for exa~ple, Standard Oil I suppose is worth $40 billion - $50 billion, not $50 million, but billion. And a Billion is a thousand million. And they must be worth the bP.st part of $50 billion.

I would like .to be negotiating with Stand~rd Oil, I wish it was they, rather than Shaheen, who would be interested in puttin~. an oil refinery in Newfoundland.

We could not need to be negotiatin3_all do;.m through these years Hith them, · six months, the deal \·;ould have been signed, <:nd they uould have wanted the land, lots of la!ld, probo!lly every ac~~ f•f land in Ccr.e-By-Chance leaving r.~ rooc for ~yone else, for anything else, and we have been glad to give th~~ the land, give the~ the rights to the harbour, and that is all it vould cost. nut, they uere not interested. 'l:he only person interested was John Shaheen. And if John Shaheen is worth $20 or $30 million it is certainly the outside liQit of what he is worth.

And that consists of radio stations, ~elevision stations, and some small oil companies, and other interests not vast industrial enterprise3, it would for Americans, small stuff. Chicken feed.

And what he is ~rth is in business, and I suppose, he is expanding in all those business and I suppose he is always strapped, always strapped for money, always short of money, especially, the l~st couple of years, when everyone other than Starr!~~d Oil . and the ~reat gients, Vnilever ann the great banks, an3 insurance coupanies, everyone is being str.::tpred for the last couple of years - there is not a firm on Water Street that has not been strapped. There is not pne - not one. This does ndt me~ that they are insolvent. This does not mean that they are broke, this only means that they are strapped.

So we have negotiated with Shaheen. So ve have had difficulty, after difficulty, after difficulty. Every kind of difficulty that could be thrown in our paths has been thrown. I cannot imagine any kind of obstacle that could have been put in our way to get this grea .t refinery in Come-By-Chance. I cannot imagine an obstacle that has not been put in our path. Everythin~ that they could throw at us, they have thrown the book at us. To stop t~e oil refinery. There are people who do not l.'ant it .l And I am not talking of politfcans now. I am talking about oil people. I There are people who do not want it.

There are people who are determined that that oil refinery shall not go in Come-By-Chance or I anywhere else in this Province. There are people who have been -illin& to spend I vast sums of money, and wh? have spend vast sums of money to stop it. Vast sums. I I estimate, at least half a million cash to block it. To stop it. I And it would be a good investment for them, it would be chicken feed for them. A mere paltry half million dollars, to block this oil refinery. SOME HON. MleillER: Inaudible. :" .. PREMIER SMALLwOOD: And Sir. I eoulcJyes. SOME HON. MEXBER: Would he. PREMIER SMALLWOOD: No, I would not.

But, I could, and I could also, but I will not. I could also name many an outfit that has done everything imaginable to block Come-By-Chance. L-woula say, Mr. Speaker, that in the history of the ten provinces,. of Canada, there has never been an example like this of dirty pool, of dirty business and of dirty politics, used to kill a great enterprise. ·Not in Canada's history. And I vho have fought to get industries for this Province, and this Government who have fought to get industries for this Province, have had the fight of our lives to get this great oil refinery. Now, Mr.

Spe~~er, I had said to John Shaheen, more than once, that if this oil refinery costing a $130 millions, a $100 millicn first mortgage, $30· million the second mortgage - $10 million equity, not counting the ships, if this vast industry ·.

February 25th., 19tO . 'Tape no. 77 Page 1 . This industry, if this vast industry, vast that is as to the amount of capital it needs, vast in that sense. If that vast industry meant only another oil refinery, bigger, say eight times bigger than the one at Holyrood,. say eight refineries :of the size of the one at Holyrood and I would lik~ to see eight refineries in a row,~l.ined up in a row, eight like those at i Holyrood. That would be a sight to see, but if it meant that only another I oil refinery employing 400 to 500 men, not 300. I£ that is all it meant I employing 400 or 500 1men, Mr.

Speaker, ~hile I would be delighted to have j t I I t I I ~ I I an industry employing that many, just as I am delighted to be getting an industry in Stephenville that ' t.~ill employ 200, this Hohat.~k outfit, 200. I thank God for 200 jobs in Newfoundland. I thank God and this Government. I do r.ot despise 400 or 500 jobs, but do you think, Mr. Speaker, that this Government would be interested in $130 million for 400 to 500 jobs. I have here in my pocket, right here the names of companies whose names are known around the world, vho t.~ill go into Come-by-chance.

Once that oil refinery is actually under construction and well underway say half constructed because, ¥x. Speaker, after everythin~ that has happened in the last couple or three years in connection vith the cil refinery at Come-by-Chance and John Shaheen the slander, the slander we heard here Honday night, indefensible slander of a man. The slander of Shaheen from the hon. member for Humber East. Indefensible slander, contemptible slander. Yes, the hon. gentleman sees this man as a criminal virtually. The Presid~nt of the United States does not.

MR. \.'ELLS: That is what he has demonstrated to me. ~~!1IER S¥~L!~OD_~ I ~m glad the bon. gentlerran is speaking like he is, because I have his words here that he uttered on Monday night. I am tugging him a little more. I want him on the record. I want it unmistakable. He is calling on his right. lie is not so hot-tempered • He has not vilified Shaheen. He has not called him or hinted that he was a crook or a scoundrel. Now, Mr. Speaker, after what has haopened in connection with the oil refin the doubt that has been throtJO on it, the liable, the calumniation, the

February 25th •• 1970 Tape no. 77 Page 2 misrepresentation of the facts in the past tvo years - would you be surprised if a great and reputable petro-chemical company interested in a new source of Core stock Yith its attention dra~~ to Come-by-Chance, attention gravn I to the geographical and the logistical advantages of Come-by-Chance and I agreeing that this would be a good place for them to go.

Can you be I surprised that any such firm in the light of all the talk and the uncertainties I of the last two years would prefer to keep their pow~er dry, to see if this I I refinery is really going to start in actual fact that it is not just talk, I that it is not just p~litical propaganda, that it is not just a cod, as we uSe to say in Newfoundland, that it is real, that it is for ~eal. Can you be surprised, if they prefer to wait to see if this oil refinery is a reality, before they move in? My reason for putting up the great battle of my life which beats even ' the battle of Churchill Falls.

In Churchill Falls, I hac a man with an emperor complex to deal with in the neighbouring province who delayed it for years and drove the cost of developing Churchill Falls up by something in the order of $400 million to $500 million by delaying the commencement of construction • . By the time construction was able to start, prices had escalated, cost of materials had escalated, the cost of money had escalated and the cost of producing the power, at least the cost of not producing the power, the cost of putting in the installation at Churchill Falls has virtually doubled.

Even that battle was not as fierce as the one to get this great oil refinery. I have been su~tain~d in this battle. I would not want to be Premier. I would not want to be cowardly. I would not want to gi7e him on this so ·long as there are Newfoundlanders who will sustain me, who will keep me in office, so long as there are men who will back me up. Let all the rest desert what they think is the sinking ship. Let them eo.

As lon~ as loyal Liberals will stand by me, I have been willing to fi~ht to get this oil refinery not for the sake of an oil refinery, but for the sake of what can be a vast employment that would be based on the oil refinery. Because I know, Mr. Speaker, the need for

jobs. Mr. J. Parker has been sneered at and jeered at, run down and slandered and yet Mr. Parker did what I have been doing for year~. He has been I looking at the facts, not the propap,anda, lookin~ at the facts. He says i bow many men can this fishery maintain in Newfoundland in the future? How I many men are we likelv to have getting their living out of the mines in the I - I future? How many men .. are we likely to get to make their living out of this I and that and the other with bases ~oinp., here, bases going there? t,'bere I are the jobs to come from in the future on this little Island of ours?

That I is a pretty sensibte thing to be doinp.. This is what every thoughtful I Newfoundlander should be doing, because if we do not find the jobs, then the only solution left is either to follow ~r. Parker's advice and ~ve our ~eople up where the jobs ar~, in Ontario mainly, or give in, throw in the sponge. Throw in the sponge, Something that Newfoundland never did even when she start,·eyen when Newfoundlanders, bellies worse were clinging on to their back bones, when their bellies were empty. We never gave in. ·. :Jlf· I

,. HON. J.R.SMALLWOOD (Premier): We never gave in not in five hundred years - but \o"e have to do that or leave - get out of this Province - get o_ut or staty here and give in and admit Ye are just poltr