----~ Volume XLI We dnes day Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript) Numbe r 44 30 May 1990

The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker (Lush): Order, please! Statements by Ministers Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, on one day last week some hon. Member opposite asked me if I would table the document that I had been discussing, of possible add-ons. And I told the House that after discussions with others, I had been requested not to. Yesterday after the meeting with Senator Murray I suggested that I table the document that we had been discussing, and even though our discussions have gone somewhat beyond the document, nevertheless they are founded on this.

So today, Mr. Speaker, I am tabling in the House of Assembly the working document containing possible 'add-ons• which could meet the concerns of Newfoundland and Labrador with the Meech Lake Accord. The original version of this document was prepared some weeks ago when I made a presentation to the Special Committee on the Proposed Companion Resolution to the Meech Lake Accord. It has since served as a working document for discussions with Senator Murray, federal officials and other First Ministers. And the one that I am tabling today is variations of it that we included up to May 24, 1990.

I have always maintained that the add-on approach is not a desirable L1 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI way to undertake constitutional reform and is no substitute for the political will to come up with properly developed revisions to the Accord that will be accepted by the majority of Canadians in all parts of the country and ensure the durability and legitimacy of the reforms.

Nevertheless, in the interest of overcoming the current constitutional impasse, which is of deep concern to all Canadians, it is possible to consider add-ons to the Accord which could accommodate the Government's concerns with the Accord, assuming the add-ons come into force at the same time as the Accord. The attached document therefore gives some indication of how this coul<i. be done. I want to emphasize that what is contained in the document are add-ons that could address all of the concerns raised in the past by Newfoundland and were put forward for discussion.

The document is not intended to, and does not represent an absolute position that Newfoundland is taking. It merely discloses the basis on which we have been having discussions, and it is probable that any final agreement would likely reflect differences and possibly even deletions. Mr. Speaker, constructive discussions are continuing among all first ministers and I welcome a First Ministers' Conference at the earliest opportunity.

Nevertheless as I have said repeatedly, there is nothing absolute about June 23 and there is nothing whatsoever that prevents or limits implementation of the Meech Lake proposals with an agreed addition after June 23. To insist on the deadline No. 44 Rl

needlessly creates a panic crisis atmosphere among Canadians which is not conducive to reasoned debate leading to long-term, durable constitutional reforms. I again urge all First Ministers to agree formally to ignore or extend the so-called June 23 deadline . Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon . the Member for Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I received the Premier's statement just a few minutes ago, and I will be reading the add-on document carefully to assess whether it indicates any real movement on the part of the Premier.

Within the past forty-eight hours the Premier has given the impression that he is starting to move, that he is moving on the key question of the distinct society clause for Quebec. I hope, and thousands of people in the Province hope, that this document does in fact represent movement and a new conciliatory approach on the part of the Premier. Yesterday in the House I expressed the concerns of many people, that based on the Premier's provocative actions at every critical point in this process so far, this Premier may not be capable of compromise and bringing about constitutional peace in Canada.

Regardless of what happens in the next three weeks, people are worried that our Premier• s hard line opposition to the Meech Lake Accord has fueled prejudice against francophones and poisoned the atmosphere between Quebec and English Canada. Finally, Mr. Speaker, let me say that June 23 is a real deadline, a real deadline created by the Constitution Act, it is a real L2 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI deadline in the law. This is not just my opinion, but the opinion of just about all the constitutional authorities in Canada, and the other governments, even New Brunswick and Manitoba, to the best of my knowledge.

The only constitutional authority in Canada, apart from our Premier, claiming that June 23 is an imaginary deadline, is Gordon Robertson, who happens to be an ardent supporter of the Meech Lake Accord. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Are there further Statements by Ministers? The bon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Mr. Speaker, han. Members will recall that several months ago I announced my Department's intention to evaluate the merits of the construction of the Outer Ring Road in relation to other road construction projects in the Province.

I wish at this time to inform this hon. ·House that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has completed its review of the proposed Outer Ring Road and has approved this project. Government has further determined that the environmental assessment carried out on the project, including a full environmental impact statement is satisfactory and no further environmental assessment in regard to the project is necessary. Because the released environmental Environmental will not be No. 44 project from has been further assessment, an Assessment Board appointe d, therefore R2

public hearings forthcoming. will not be The Outer Ring Road, when completed, will be approximately 27 kilometres in length stretching from Donovan's to Harding Road, including a connection to Kenmount Road. Total constriction costs are estimated at $68 million. Funding for this project is contained in the $405 million Trans Canada Highway Agreement. Funding under this agreement begins this construction year with an expenditure of $10 million.

The 1990-91 projects will see the start of upgrading and resurfacing of the Argentia Access Road, resurfacing of the existing Trans Canada between Holyrood and Whitbourne, four laning from Witless Bay Line to the Holyrood Access Road, the construction of an overpass at the intersection of the Trans Canada Highway and the Holyrood Access Road, and the start of four laning between Steady Brook and Corner Brook. The Trans Canada Highway Agreement will see a further expenditures of $25 million in 1991-92, $30 million in 1992-93 and 1993-94, and $35 million each fiscal year from 1995 to 2003.

Early priority for projects under the Trans Canada Agreement will be given to those projects involving highway safety, and the rehabilitation of existing routes such as the Argentia Access Road. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for Kilbride. Mr. R. Aylward: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. First of all I L3 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI want to thank the Minister for providing me with an advance copy of his statement. Mr.

Speaker, I want to congratulate the Minister and Cabinet in their wise decision on not proceeding with the environmental panel, which was not necessary because the assessment had been done before. I want to note also the quick change in priority from the Premier's statement last week, which said the Outer Ring Road is not a priority and this week it seems to be. Mr. Speaker, that pleases me, and I guess it was the questioning the Mayor of the City and others have done, including the Opposition, to increase the priority of this project. Mr. Speaker, I do note that the han.

Minister was in Ottawa last week, and thank God for Newfoundland having John Crosbie in Ottawa. That is what I say. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. R. Aylward: He tried to take the money away from the people of Petit Forte, Mr. Speaker, and John Crosbie would not let him. He tried to take the money away ft"om the City of St. John's, and John Crosbie would not let him. Mr. Speaker, I do notice that the funding under this agreement for this year, is about $10 million. It does not say specifically in this Statement that the Outer Ring Road will have any expenditures this year.

I will be following that up to see when the expenditures will be starting in the Outer Ring Road, Mr. Speaker, and maybe it will not be for the next ten years. I am not sure that the statement is as rosy as it looks, but it is another step in the right direction to have the No. 44 R3

outer Ring Road constructed, Mr. Speaker, which is a necessity in this Province if you want to look at the transportation needs of this area in the Province over the next twenty years. Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Mr. Speaker, today I wish to inform my han. colleagues of the position Government has taken with t"espec t to the extension of the ferry service at Argentia. Han. Members will recall that an independent study on the Implications of Extending the Ferry Service at Argentia was commissioned in the fall of 1988 by Transport Canada.

Since the release of that Study in March by the Federal Minister, bon. Doug Lewis, Government has reviewed the three proposals suggested by the consultants: the six week extension to the passenger season, the year round freight service, and the year round ft"eight and passenger service. As well, we have considered the many comments provided by communities and interest groups potentially affected by the type of service to be provided at Argentia.

As a result of this review, I have advised the Federal Minister of Transport the Province will support the six week extension of the passenger service at Argentia for a trail period of three years. I have further requested we jointly monitor truck movements and rates with respect to this service since the Smallwood provides much better service for trucks than did the Ambrose Shea. The intention is to ensure Mat"ine Atlantic is not placed in a L4 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI preferential position relative to private carriers.

When reviewing the year round options proposed by the consultant, it was determined the Province does not really benefit overall from a change in service. Rather, benefits in the Argentia area in terms of employment and potential for revenue from passing traffic are matched or exceeded by losses in Port aux Basques and western Newfoundland. In addition, even a slight variance from the assumptions made by the consultants could lead to a major problem for the Province.

Marine Atlantic could compete with private enterprise carriers such as Atlantic Container Express and Atlantic Steamships Limited for traffic to and from Newfoundland. With a subsidy from the Federal Government, such competition would be unfair and could lead to the loss of marine shipping to Corner Brook. Shippers in St. John's would have less sailings on a weekly basis and the financial structure of the Port Corporation of St. John's would be threatened. I believe the position Government gt"oups in tt"eated. taken by the Provincial ensures all interest this area arP. fait"ly Mr.

Speaker: The bon . the Member for Kilbride. Mr. R. Aylward: Thank you vet"y much, Mr. Speaker, again I want to thank the Minister for pt"oviding me with an advance copy of his statement. The statement obviously is a variation of option one that was in the report of the consultants and obviously the Government has come down on the side of westet"n Newfoundland over and above the Argentia at"ea. I No. 44 R4

would like to be in the same room when the Member for Placentia tries to explain this to Felix Collins because I know he has put in a lot of work on this proposal. He probably worked harder than any Member in this House on getting the year round freight service and passenger service for Argentia, but Government obviously - and this is our Government's position on it - it is still not necessarily what will happen with the Argentia ferry service, because the ultimate decision will be up to the hon. Federal Minister of Transportation. Mr.

Speaker, I do want to say all the same, that I am encouraged that this is a first step again, in having a year round service in Argentia. Oral Questions Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern. Mr. Parsons: Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. Our Province, this country, and, indeed, we in find oul.'"selves in a very, vel.'"y sel.'"ious situation, more serious than anything that has happened in oul.'" lifetime as pal.'"t of Canada. Mr. Speaker, I was in Goose Bay, Labradol.'", wol.'"king on the ail'" base when this Pl.'"ovince became pal.'"t of Canada, in 1949.

It was Apl'"il Fool's Day, and I thought it was just that. I thought it was a fool's day but, MI.'". Speaker, I was dead Wl.'"ong, and today I stand in the House and try to pl.'"otect the rights of the middle-class people, the pool.'" people of this Pl.'"ovince. MI.'". Speake!.'", what happens to this countl.'"y may not matte!.'" much to me. LS May 30, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker: Ol.'"del.'", please! The hon. gentleman posing his question. should be Mr. Parsons: What I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is that I am hel.'"e today looking out fol.'" my grandchildren.

My eight grandchildren will have a country I love to live in. My question to the Premier is, does the Premier believe that through his actions this Province could lose all our social pl.'"ograms, including Ul, including oul.'" old age pensions, including our wal.'" vetel.'"ans' pensions, including OUL'" family allowance and our Medical.'"e? Al.'"e his actions threatening oul.'" social fabric, Mr. Speake!.'"? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premiel.'". Premiel.'" Wells: No, MI.'". Speake!.'", they al.'"e not. I don't believe in it. I don't believe what the hon. Membel.'" is saying.

I don't believe, pal.'"ticulal.'"ly, in tul.'"ning oul.'"selves into wimps because somebody says the whole wol.'"ld will fall apal.'"t - Some Hon. Membel.'"s: Hear, heal.'"! Pl.'"emiel.'" Wells: - because somebody says don't think fol.'" youl.'"self, don't look aftel.'" you!.'" long-term intel.'"ests, don't put forward you!.'" views, because if you do, the wol.'"ld is going to cave in, ol.'" the sky is going to fall in, and you can't do what you think is dght because of this. With great l.'"espect to the hon. Membel.'", I say he has admit ted he was wrong in 1949; I suggest he is wrong again today. Some Hon.

Membel.'"s: Heal.'", hear! Mr. Speake!.'": The hon. the Membel.'" No. 44 RS

for st. John's East Extern. Mr. Parsons: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier does he see his actions and rhetoric throwing kindling on a smouldering fire? Mr. Speaker, there was always a smouldering fire as it pertains to Quebec, a fire that is now almost burning out of control, to a point of hatred, even to a point where English Canadians stomp on the Quebec flag. Do you think your rhetoric, your actions, are causing this hatred? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier.

Premier Wells: I saw a story in the newspaper this morning, a report in The ottawa Citizen and The Gazette, that some _people, apparently, are scheming ways to make derogatory statements about me and Premier Filmon, and others, in order to discredit us and destroy our credibility, absolutely despicable behaviour if it is true. What the hon. Member is doing is just the same kind of thing, and that is equally despicable. Let us discuss these issues, Mr. Speaker, in the light of what is right for the country. Let us make the decisions. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Premier Wells: These fake statements about throwing kindling on a smouldering fire of hatred, what utter tripe! It is hardly worth the dignity, Mr. Speaker, of a response. And let me remind hon. Members, Mr. Speaker - Mr. Simms: said in rhetoric? What about what you Halifax? Was that Premier Wells: Let me start again, Mr. Speaker. Let me remind hon. Members, Mr. Speaker, that it L6 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI is not my decision, it is the decision of this House that I am carrying out, the wishes of the majority of this House. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Premier Wells: The people of Newfoundland and Labrador asked us to cancel what that other majority did because they had no faith in it, and that is exactly what we did. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Matthews: Yes, 47 per cent to 48 per cent. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! Premier Wells: I might remind hon. Members that if they pay any attention to the reports recently, they will see that 62 per cent support what we are doing; and 11 per cent support the bon. Members opposite. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! An Hon. Member: Call your referendum. Premier Wells: We are, Mr . Speaker.

I want to remind hon. Members that the position this Government has taken is that neither the Premier of this Province, the Government, nor this House should force on people constitutional changes against their will. That is why we have provided that if the other provinces all approve of the Meech Lake Accord as it is, we will submit it to the people of this Province and they can decide. Now, Mr. comments No. 44 Speaker, that just the came kinds of from the R6

han. Member about fostering hatred and throwing kindling on a smouldering fire are a despicable example of the kind of deliberate action to destroy the credibility of people who are dealing with the real issues, because they do not have the intellectual integrity to deal with the issues on the issues. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The han. the Member for St. John's East Extern. Mr. Parsons: I want to say to you, Mr. Premier, that when you talk about the 62 per cent, that is what you caused by spreading what I would call your hatred.

That is what caused the 62 per cent, it is because you have Newfoundlanders hating Quebecers. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Parsons: Let me say to you, I heard you - Mr. Speaker: Get to the question. Mr. Parsons: The question, Mr. Speaker, is to the Premier.

Because of what I heard myself, you saying it is better to be poor than sign Meech Lake, I ask the Premier, because you are known as a wealthy man, because you are known to have been subsidized by $50,000 to bring your salary to $125,000 a year, do you think you are the right person to get out there and speak for the poor people of Newfoundland and Labrador and tell them what they have to live on if Meech Lake fails? Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! L7 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier.

Premier Wells: Let me address the totally unacceptable, offensive, untrue statement about spreading hatred, and it demonstrates quite clearly what people will resort to when they don't have the intellectual integrity to address the issue. Dr. Johnson had it correct: 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, ' Mr. Speaker. Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please!

Premier Wells: Don't make decisions on the Meech Lake Accord on the basis of whether I have eight ears, eighteen foot horns or fourteen eyes, make the decision on the basis of what is right for this country and what is right for this Province. Never mind the fearmongering and -smears and hatreds and threats and untruths, make the decision on the right basis. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have stood in this Assembly and I have stood in every province of this country, every single province of this country, Quebec included and British Columbia and Manitoba and Ontario, and lately in Nova Scotia, and spoke stcongly of the warm support of the people for Newfoundland, the people of Quebec, and the need to address the legitimate concerns of the people of Quebec. But, Mr. Speaker, I will never be the wimp the other side wants me to be, to knuckle under and sell the birthright of our people because they feel threatened or they are incapable of coping. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! No. 44 R7

I make the same ruling to han. Members on both sides of the House, that Question Period is for information, questions ought to be brief, answers ought to be brief. In any event, it is not for making speeches, and questions should not be argumentative and should not seek opinion. I ask han. Members on both sides of the House, please, to remember the rules of Question Period. The han. the Member fa~ Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Once again this Premier has insulted the intelligence of somebody who asked him a hard question; it is becoming known as the Clyde Wells syndrome. Mr.

Speaker, as the Member for St. John's East Extern asked, how can this Premier relate to being poor, since he had to have an extra $50, 000 a year to bring his total salary up to $125,000 when he was Leader of the Opposition? Isn't it true that this Premier personally will never be poor, but he is gambling with the future of thousands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians fortunate? who aren't so Premier Wells: The han. Member has just displayed what I was talking about. I said nothing, I said nothing about the p~esence or absence of intelligence in the han. Member for St. John's East. Mr. Matthews: You sure did.

You sure did! Premier Wells: whatsoever about absence. I said say again, I said I said nothing the p~esence or nothing. I will nothing. Some Han. Members: You did! You did! L8 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI Premier Wells: I'll say again. Some Han. Members: again! Yes, say it Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The Chair insists upon the rules being followed. Members aren't entitled to interrupt the Member when the Member is giving an answer to a question. I would ask han. Members please to extend that courtesy. I think the Member was extended the cou~tesy of asking the question.

The P~emie~ should be extended the courtesy of giving the answer. The han. the Premier. Premier Wells: Let me say again, Mr. Speaker, Hansard will record that I said nothing about the presence o~ absence or level of intelligence of the han. Membe~. What I said was it was lacking in integrity, it was .not speaking the truth about the matter. An Han. Member: such wo~ds. (Inaudible) or Premier Wells: That is ~ight. Mr. Pa~sons: (Inaudible) lack of intelligence. Premier Wells: I have no ~esponsibility for the han. Member's lack of unde~standing of words. He has to add~ess that.

I am talking about the lack of integrity. Some Han. Members: (Inaudible). Premier Wells: I am talking about the lack of integrity of the han. Member fa~ St. John's East and the han. Membe~ for Humber East in a - Mr. Parsons: A point of order, No. 44 R8

Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern on a point of order. Mr. Parsons: I ask the Premier to take that back. I am not about to stand and be ridiculed by that Premier, and that is what he is doing today. I ask him to take that back like a man! Take it back! You said I don't have your intelligence. Thank God for that, that I don't have it. An Hon. Member: Be a man. Mr. Parsons: Be a man and take it back. Mr. Tobin: Be a man. Be a man. An Hon. Member: Apologize to the House. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr.

Speaker, I emphasize again that any Member of this bon. House, whether he shouts, turns red, gets upset or emotional, whatever he does, who attributes to me a motivation of hatred for Quebec because I put forward Newfoundland's position, is lacking in intellectual integrity, Mr. Speaker, and I have no quarrel with saying it. An Hon. Member: Is that parliamentary? Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Premier Wells: Now, Mr. Speaker, let me address - Mr. Speaker: Order, please! On the point of order, the Chair would admonish hon. Members again to please respect the rules of the L9 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI House, from both sides.

We are not to engage in debate. The remarks made by the Premier, in view of the Chair, were not, in the context in which he said them, unparliamentary. The bon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Parsons: On another point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern. Mr. Parsons: He said the same thing that he said before, Mr. Speaker. And I ask the protectlon of the Chair, Sir, in asking that Premier to take it back. Mr. Simms: He is imputing motives. Mr. Parsons: Yes. You had a motive behind it. Now I want you, Sir, to tell the Premier to take it back.

That is what I am asking, your protectlon against the statement that Premier made, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Warren: He is not allowed to say (inaudible) . He doesn't have the guts to take it back. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The Chair made a ruling that in view of the context and the flow of the debate, the particular remarks by the Premier were not unparliamentary. The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Now, Mr. Speaker, I will try and complete the answer for the hon. Member for Humber East. The comment that she made - No. 44 R9

Mr. Tobin: (Inaudible). Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! The Chair heard a remark from the hon. the Member for Burin Placentia West, and the Chair is asking for the hon. Member to retract that statement, please. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Speaker, the one thing about me is I am never too big to withdraw anything. I do not think myself beyond that. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Now, let me address the question that somehow a salary that I was paid when I was Leader of the Opposition, to provide me with a level of income when that Government held up the by-election for six months to deliberately prevent any income, that is not paid to me anymore, and has not been paid to me since the day I became Premier. To have this raised in that way displays an equal lack of intellectual integrity in dealing with the issues of the Meech Lake Accord. That is what I am talking about, Mr. Speaker. I am not talking about intelligence.

It is shocking that it should come from otherwise recognized highly intelligent people, that those kinds of statements should be made. An Hon. Member: We are sorry we are not as good as you. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Premier Wells: Mr . Speaker, I LlO May 30, 1990 Vol XLI emphasize again, I have stood in this Chamber and I have stood in political forums across this country to address the need for the promotion and development of bilingualism, for the need to respond genuinely to Quebec's legitimate concerns. Mr.

Speaker, anybody who listened to CBC radio this morning, and the interview with a journalist from Quebec, would know that those comments give the lie to those statements suggested by the hon. (inaudible). Mr. Simms: Did he speak for everybody in Quebec? Premier Wells: No, but he was asked to indicate the attitude of the editorial writers in Quebec towards the position I have been taking. He explained that the comments reflected a recognition that the Premier of Newfoundland was speaking on the basis of principle and not on the basis of any hatred or attitude against Quebec. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Premier Wells: And they were good, strong, clear, unequivocal statements that he said reflected the editorial opinion being expressed throughout Quebec. Now, if the people and the editorial writers of Quebec have the intellectual integrity and honesty to deal with the Meech Lake issue on that basis, it is a sad, sad commentary on the Opposition of this Province that they are so lacking in intellectual integrity that they would cover up the unacceptability of their own position to the people of this Province by trying to resort to the patriotism that is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Mr.

Speaker: The han. the Member No. 44 RlO

for Humber East. Ms Verge: Mr. Speaker, this Premier can sure dish it out but he cannot take it. All of us, Opposition, news media, private citizens, anyone who asks him a hard question, is now intellectually deficient, or lacking in intellectual integrity. People throughout the Province heard this Premier say on television he would rather that we be poor than live under the Meech Lake Accord.

I say to this Premier, he cannot begin to understand what it is like to be poor and he will never have to worry about it Is it not true that the Premier is risking the future of thousands of people of this Province who are poor, and have to worry about being poor? Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Let me state clearly for the House what I said. Nothing the bon. Member represented as my statement even remotely resembles it. What I said, Mr. Speaker, and I repeat again - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please!

Premier again. past - Wells: What I Let me start have said in the Mr. Sinuns: again. Say it again. Premier Wells: Yes, okay. What I have said in the past - Mr. Simms: Say it again. Start Lll May 30, 1990 Vol XLI An Hon. Member: One more time. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The Chair has ruled before that a Member is entitled to speak without being interrupted by bon. Members. All bon. Members are doing is simply prolonging the Question Period and not getting an opportunity to get in all the questions, and, obviously, all the answers. The bon. the Premier.

Premier Wells: What I have said before, and I repeat so that nobody will accept the misrepresentation of it by the bon. the Member for Humber East, is that given a choice between having the dignity and self-respect our people can enjoy by providing for themselves, or, on the one hand, having to rely on handouts, the comfort that will come to our people for having to rely on handouts and go cap-in-hand begging to the Federal Government or Ottawa or Ontario or Quebec to provide them with handouts for the next decades and centuries, given that choice, I would take the choice of dignity and self-respect.

I will not sell the dignity and self-respect of the people of this Province, Mr. Speaker, without their express approval in a referendum. With all the facts put before the people, if they choose it, sobeit, I cannot dictate the contrary. Mr. Speaker, I have the intellectual honesty to let the people . decide. The other side is now hiding behind the fact that when Newfoundland needed a competent Government, they failed the Province. They were thrown out of office and a new and competent Government was put ln place, and the people have No. 44 Rll

endorsed solidly the actions they have been taking. An Han. Member: is up. The pension man Mr. Matthews: Never mind the man. pension important Province, or not. to some whether Pensions are people in the you believe it Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The bon. the Member for Green Bay. Mr. Hewlett: Mr. Speaker, my constituents are leaving for the Mainland in droves. So much for the competence of this new Government! Mr. Speaker, in the early sixties, Nikita Khrushchev pushed the world to the edge of a major missile crisis.

His reckless adventurism frightened his colleagues so much that they ousted him from the Premiership. Will the Premier not admit that his pursuit of the destruction of the Meech Lake Accord has also been reckless adverturism, and that recklessness is, indeed, endangering my father's pension and thousands of others in this Province? Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Walsh: It was the integrity of a Kennedy that (inaudible). Mr. Simms: Are you the Premier? Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The han. the Premier. Premier Wells: There were two sides to that. The other individual F.

Kennedy, under to involved was one John who would not knuckle the fears, threats, Ll2 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI fearmongering and blackmail. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Premier Wells: And thanks to John F. Kennedy, the world is a better place and Cuba is free of nuclear missiles. Now if the bon. Member wants to use examples for comparison, let him be honest enough to discuss the whole of the example, and I would be quite prepared to discuss it in that context. Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The bon. the Member for Green Bay. Mr. Hewlett: Mr.

Speaker, this comparison of the person pushing the world to the brink of crisis was Mr. Khrushcev not John F. Kennedy. John F. Kennedy is probably Brian Mulroney or Robert Bourassa, in this particular case. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Hewlett: Mr. Speaker, I heard the Premier on a television interview say he was he was not a gambler. But will the Premier not admit that his extremely radical stand on Meech Lake is gambling with the fate of the people of this Province and this nation? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier. Premier Wells: No, I am not a gambler, and I am not gambling.

The other comment was, 'his extremely radical stand.' He is amongst a whole majority of maybe 5 per cent of the nation who would call it a radical stand. It is really terrific comfort he must take from that fact, that about maybe 5 per cent of the nation share his point of view on that. No. 44 Rl2

Even in Quebec, where they might oppose the point of view, they do not see it as radical. They understand the intellectual honesty in it, and the sincerity of the basis for it. And they have expressed their opposition to it and their support for another point of view, but they have had the intellectual integrity and honesty to recognize Newfoundland's opinion for what it is; they have not hidden behind these kinds of aspersions and suggestions, that they are radical and unacceptable. Newfoundland has received the endorsement of the vast majority of the people of this country for the position it has taken.

Ms Verge: How arrogant! Premier Wells: Newfoundland, the people of Newfoundland, and the Government of Newfoundland have received the substantial endorsement of the vast majority of the people of this nation for its principled stand on this issue, and we will continue to take that principled stand. We will not sell the future of the people of this Province and the people of this nation because Members like the bon. Members opposite want to cower as soon as somebody says boo. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Member for Green Bay. Mr. Hewlett: Mr.

Speaker, I would to God the constituents of my rural District could live off the Premier's intellectual honesty. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Hewlett: If this Meech Lake Ll3 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI crisis breaks up the nation, what are these people going to do to survive? Some of them have already told me we should join the States. But what are they going to do for the usual social benefits they are used to? The United States has practically none in that regard. They cannot live off intellectual honesty. What are they going to do, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr.

Speaker, during the process of these discussions I once had a conversation with Premier Bourassa about the position Newfoundland was taking and Newfoundland's views, and explained to him the basis for it. He said to me, 'Be careful now what you are saying. Remember 48 or 50 per cent of your Government' s income comes from Canada; and 68 per cent of that comes from Quebec and Ontario.' Now, to the people of this Province he was saying, 'Don't you say anything with which Quebec does not agree. You be careful about what you are saying about what Quebec wants.

And do not object to what Quebec wants, because remember where 68 per cent of your Government's income comes from. Remember where that comes from - or 50 per cent of your income comes from; and that Ontario and Quebec pays that.' Well now, Mr. Speaker, maybe the bon. Members opposite think it is appropriate for all of us in this Province to put our tails between our legs, take off our cap and take it to Mr. Bourassa and Mr. Peterson, and others, and say, If we don't say anything about what you are doing, will you continue to give us the money we need to live on? Now, Mr. Speaker, maybe that is what the bon.

Members No. 44 R13

want. Maybe, indeed, the majority of the people of this Province want that. If they do, we have the concern and honesty enough to give them the opportunity, through a referendum, to choose that. I happen to think that the vast majority of the people of this Province do not want that, they want dignity and self-respect. The Members opposite may be prepared to sell the dignity and self-respect of our people without their consent, but, Mr. Speaker, this Government is not prepared to sell their dignity and self-respect without their consent, given referendum. to us in a Mr. Simms: Do as I say, don't do as I do. Mr.

Hewlett: Self-dignity and self-respect are the same knife or a butter knife. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The only one I have seen in the Province in the last couple of years taking off the cap with the hand out, Mr. Speaker, is the Premier opposite. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Matthews: question is to Fisheries. Mr. the Speaker, Minister my of The Minister has a program in his Department for projects related to construction or improvement to fisheries operation facilities around the Province.

I am wondering if the Minister could Ll4 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI tell the House if there has been many applications for funding under that particular program this year? How much money is in the budget? And how can the Minister justify an announcement he put out this morning of eleven projects under this particular program, and that of the eleven projects approved by the Minister's Department, five are from his own District? Can the Minister explain that for Members opposite? An Hon. Member: Mr. Matthews: are awarded District. Mr. Speaker: What? Five out of eleven to the Minister's The han. the Minister of Fisheries.

Mr. Carter: I will certainly take the question as notice and get for the hon. Member a list of the applications. But I should remind him, Mr. Speaker, that Twillingate District, like a lot of other Liberal Districts, are only now getting a chance to catch up. We were five years without any grants whatever from that Government, when they were in power. I wi 11 get the answers tomorrow. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr . Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

The specific question, a supplementary to the Minister is, How in the name of God can a Minister of Fisheries in this Province make an announcement this morning, right here, through Newfoundland Information Services, No. 44 Rl4

in which eleven pt"'ojects wet"'e appt"'oved for' the Pt"'ovince, and five of the eleven, just about half of the money appt"'oved, is for' the Ministet""'s Distt"'ict? Now, Mt"'. Speaker', I can undet""stand it if thet"'e wet"'e a couple of pt"'ojects for' the Ministet""'s Distt""ict; there are pt"'obably needs in the Minister's District, as there are all around the Province, but how can the Minister' justify awat""ding five out of eleven pt"'ojects to his own Distdct? Mt"'. R. Aylwat""d: cent. Fot"'ty-seven per Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Fishet"'ies. hon. the ML"'. Cat"'tet"': ML"'.

Speaker', I can only t"'epeat what I said a moment ago, that I will get the infoLmation he is asking for' and table it. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member' for Fogo. Mr. Winsor': Mt"'. Speaker, since last Thursday, I have been tt"'ying to get an answer fL""om the Minister of Fishet""ies as to the Govet"'nment' s t"'esponse to the gear' loss along the northeast coast in last week's stoLm and, in fact, tht""oughout the Pt""ovince. Can the Minister now indicate the extent of the loss and how the Govet"'nment is going to L""espond? ML"'. Speaker: The Minister' of Fishet"'ies. hon. the Mt"'. Carter': Mt"'.

Speaker, I should remind the Member, by the way, that Question Pet"'iod passed yestet""day and he never' even had the interest to stand and ask me a have the intet""est to give it. ML"'. Cat"'tet"': ML"'. Speaker', I have received a t"'eport ft"'om the Member's in my field staff. I should point out to the hon. Members that it was only, I believe, on Monday that the wind abated and allowed the fishermen to t"'eally find out what losses wet"'e suffered. But thet"'e were a considet"'able number of lobster' pots destL""oyed in that stoLm in the Bay St. Geot"'ge to the Bay of Islands area, ML"'.

Speaker, and, of cout"'se, on the northeast coast. I am told that on the not"'theast coast approximately anywhet"'e from 25 pet"' cent to 30 pet"' cent of the lobster' pots in use at that time whet"'e destt""oyed, or at least pt"'esumed to be lost. I am told that on the west coast of the Province thet"'e were similar' losses, but, in that case, a lot of the fisheLmen had a back-up supply of lobster' pots. In fact, they all wet"'e not in the water at the time of the stoLm. Mt"'. Speaker', I have already explained to the House that thet"'e is a lobster pot bank that is available to fisheLmen who lose lobster' pots.

I am told that in some cases f isheLmen have availed of that service, and that the lobster pots are made available to fisheLmen at a cost of $7. Anybody who wants to replace their losses Or' t"'eplenish their lobster pot tt"'aps, can do so by contacting the field offices in our department. Mr. Speaker': expired. Question Period has question on it. Order's of the Day Some Hon. Members: And you didn't LlS May 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 44 RlS

Private Member's Day Mr. Baker: It is Private Member's Day, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: It is Private Member's Day, and it's the bon. the Member for Mount Scio. I will ask the Member for Mount Scio to introduce proceed. his resolution and The bon. the Member for Mount Scio. Mr. Walsh: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will begin, Mr. Speaker, by reciting the motion put forward: "

WHEREAS the tourism industry is a vi tal part of our Province's economic recovery; AND

WHEREAS Tourism is the fastest growing industry in our Province with development potential not only during the normal sununer season but with tremendous potential in the winter months through ski facilities and other winter activities; AND

WHEREAS Tourism has the potential to create and meet much needed employment in our Province in both the near and distant future;

BE IT RESOLVED that the Government continue in its efforts to establish a new Tourism Subsidiary Agreement for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and thus stimulate the development of the tourism industry and tourism related infrastructure so as to meet the demands of the visitors to our Province and tourism in the future. Mr. Speaker, TDSA has been the need for a new talked about on a number of but only just some think it begin by Tourism occasions in the House, brief discussions and preliminary comments.

I would be important to reflecting on what a Development Subsidiary Ll6 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI Agreement means to this Province and has meant in the past. There have been two such agreements, Mr. Speaker, one in 1978 and another in 1984, and both these agreements had tremendous impact on not only the growth of the tourism industry in our Province but also upon the education, I would think, of those involved in the industry. Those Agreements saw the beginnings of and the potential development and the growth of Hospitality Newfoundland, which is actually the Tourism Industry Association within the Province.

To reflect upon the past and what has been a problem for us, I think we have to look at the exploration of the 1984 through 1989 TDSA. It is critical that a new tourism fund be established as soon as possible. Mr. Speaker, the momentum that was generated by the $21 million agreement led to rapid growth in all areas of tourism over that period. Not only did we see many new establishments created, not only did we see the growth of hospitality homes, we saw the results of the industry coming of age and coming into its own.

We saw nonresident annual visitations increase by 27 per cent, while their expenditures grew almost 46 to 48 per cent. We found something else, Mr. Speaker, as well. We found that the tourists were staying longer and not only that, they were spending more in all areas of the Province, in all regions of the Province. The most noticeable gain, I would say, was, the 64 per cent increase in resident trips, that's Newfoundlanders and Labradorians looking harder and looking more at their own Province, travelling throughout the Province on one day tt·ips and in some cases full vacations. No. 44 Rl6

We found that more people were staying home and looking at our Province as opposed to drifting outside and visiting other provinces and in particular the United States. Other hallmarks of the last five years are an 81 per cent increase in enquiries, stimulated by increased promotion and by market awareness, and the growth in particular of winter tourism generated by the activities and the development of Marble Mountain. Employment, Mr. Speaker, in the tourism sector has grown steadily to an estimated level of 10,000 people working in the hospitality business.

The ultimate indication of tourism growth is the 53 per cent increase in tourism revenue in 1984, tourism was valued at $239 million. In 1988, that amount grew in just four short years to $366.4 million. Mr. Speaker, before I go on. I would be remiss not to give full marks to two former Ministers of Tourism for this Province. The bon. Member for Mount Pearl and also the former Member for St. John's West, Hal Barrett. Both these individuals took tourism to heart and made it a major part of a platform of which they were wishing to be a part and wishing to grow and wishing to see develop.

At that particular time and in that particular segment, I suppose, of our Province's growth in tourism I had many occasions to work with the two individuals, serving in different capacities, from being on tourism boards, being involved in the hospitality industry as a participant, and I suppose, in my other life, how I made my living, but in particular in dealing with them on provincial issues that they were obviously concerned with. I have to give those gentlemen, and the officials L17 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI in their Departments, some of whom, most of whom, I guess, are still there, full marks for their efforts.

Fundamental improvements during the two TDSA agreements were very evident, in particular, in the support that was there for individuals, both in product, plant, and promotion. Support services, in particular, saw tremendous growth. Industry organization from 1978 through 1984 also saw growth, and that was at a time when, I believe, the Government hired an individual to establish tourism associations in various regions of the Province. He travelled a fair amount, and with people involved in the industry, the industry associations began to develop.

What we had during that period were some five to ten different organizations throughout the Province coming together, finally, to think as a unit and not to think in terms of the regional needs that they had, whether it was on the Port au Port peninsula, the Northern peninsula, the Avalon peninsula, or even the southern portion of our Province.

They started to think as a unit, thinking in terms of what would be best for the Province, knowing full well that if we were to look at attracting more tourists and developing a better infrastructure throughout the Province that we would see, not only a greater return of people who had been here before, but also we would see new people coming. Word of mouth would get better, people would say, yes, the hospitality is great, but the service is also good, and the accommodations are getting better. It still has a rustic charm to it, but let us go to Newfoundland, let us visit that No. 44 R17

Province, and let us see Labrador. We saw that grow dramatically. Mr. Speaker, the first TDSA provided $13 million during the 1978 to 1983 period, and was recognized as providing a fundamental foundation for industry development in our Province. Close to 60 per cent of the agreement was spent on basic visitor services infrastructure, such as tourist information centres, and on incentives to the private sector to provide improved accommodations.

Considerably effort was focused on developing the historical attractions, at Trinity in particular, and other select historic houses and infrastructure of natural and scenic attractions throughout the Province. There were several key tourism promotions created to serve the 1978 TDSA and some of those remain as permanent positions in the tourism branch today. The 1984 TDSA recognized the continued demand for incentives for the private sector, and focused in particular on attractions development and on marketing activity. Out of that agreement we saw things such as the Trinity Loop come alive.

Someone, I think, probably sixty or seventy miles off the Trans-Canada Highway decided to develop an attraction, and has received not only provincial, but also some national awards for their efforts. They have had some pretty good years, not to the point where they are about to retire in Florida, but Francis Kelly and his people are doing very well and attracting a lot of people to the Trinity area. That is just one of the growth industries that came out of that particular agreement. L18 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI There was tremendous focus, also, on travel generators -the St.

John's Convention Center and Marble Mountain were funded to stimulate the destination development. Mr. Speaker, without question Marble Mountain has created an industry on the west coast, I say the west coast although its proximity is to Corner Brook, when you look at the overflow that all of the other regions are receiving; the people who come through Port aux Basques and travel by car to enjoy Marble Mountain; what it has done to even the taxi business in Corner Brook. Some four or five years ago it was difficult even to see or to convince a taxi driver that there should be a ski rack on their car.

They looked at it as something that would be a hindrance to them. Mr. Speaker, I would say there are more ski racks on taxi cabs in Corner Brook today than there are ski racks on cars in the Laurentian Mountains in winter. It is part of an industry. Even the taxi drivers are enjoying it and becoming a part of it. That is because of the results of a lot of efforts by a lot of people. People like, I can never pronounce his name, Michel Levasseur, I believe, has been tremendous in his efforts to create an interest within the airlines so that airline traffic would increase, not only from st.

John's and other parts of the Province, but in particular from places like Halifax and even Montreal and Ottawa, people are now coming to ski Marble. And, Marble, Mr. Speaker, was the result of a TDSA and an opportunity to focus on a particular attraction and make it happen. No. 44 R18

Another area that was recognized as of having importance was marketing. Marketing became a recognized priority, not only in the Canadian Market but also in the international market. These promotions generated higher levels of market awareness about our Province and about the attractions that were developed in our Province. Industry organizations, as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, also grew during this particular period in time. Both provincial and regional associations have helped to develop a focused private sector which now recognize the benefits of training, promotion, and product quality.

As I said earlier, organizations such as Hospitality Newfoundland, which I might point out that I was proud to be President of for some five man ths I believe. I served for a long term. I should say that I attended a luncheon, recognizing National Tourism Week, last year, and the Minister of Development announced that I would be retiring as the President of that Organization. I immediately agreed with his assessment that maybe I should, sitting at a head table it was hard to do anything else. My term of office came to an end very quickly. But, Mr.

Speaker, I was proud to have served even for that short period of time, to have served with the staff of that particular organization who sometimes go unnoticed, as most staffs in most organizations, but they have done a tremendous job. Mr. Speaker, I will not revert to recognizing anyone, I will leave that to you, but some of those people are here today. Mr. Speaker, current Federal Ll9 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI programs are now not addressing our needs. There is still a tremendous amount of pressure to develop.

Tourism Canada is shifting more to promotions, specific developed sites, cities, and regions in the international market. By doing so, Mr. Speaker, they are leaving the provinces to promote domestically and to maintain product development themselves. Mr. Speaker, that is probably one of the major shifts that we have seen by not having a TDSA in place. It is becoming increasingly ' harder for this Province to be able to maintain the levels of marketing and advertising in the international areas that were there and were available to us through a TDSA. Mr.

Speaker, while ACOA will help and will provide incentives to the private sector for tourism related projects, although under the limitations of reduced funding levels, the agency will not fund the major public sector projects required to generate travel. But, Mr. Speaker, I must applaud also ACOA for the changes they have made in the past little while and for the improved spending levels that they are now willing to put into tourism projects. I give them full marks for that. But that in itself, Mr. Speaker, will not replace the demand~ and the needs that we have for a TDSA. Mr.

Speaker, in comparison to other provinces including the Maritimes, Newfoundland and Labrador is probably the least developed in a situation highlighted in recent regional plans. We are still without appropriate visitors services, especially for the touring market. Our accommodations plant requires serious upgrading of rural properties and new product No. 44 Rl9

oriented properties. Private sector associations, particularly Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador and key regional associations, need continued operating and special project support. And, Mr.

Speaker, I think in terms of what has been able to be accomplished on the Northern Peninsula, what began as the, I suppose, a hodge-podge of operators coming together forming the Viking Trail Association, these people have worked very hard, and I must say that organization grew again during the term of one of the previous Ministers and was developed and nurtured in particular by staff from the Department of Development and Tourism to the point that they now have become recognized throughout Canada for their efforts.

Developments on the .Northern Peninsula have come so far so fast that I think all those involved in that growth, and in particular in the education and the upgrading, all those involved should be very proud of what has taken place. Mr. Speaker, our rich cultural heritage needs to be enhanced with calibre events and festivals, and with physical

interpretation facilities along the touring routes. There are not enough places for the bus tour operators to pull off the side of the road and enjoy, not only the scenery, but to enjoy the, I suppose, the opportunity to purchase the handicrafts, and to visit the sites that are here to be developed. And that is something we have to do. Most importantly our Province is behind in the development of major travel generators. Recreation L20 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI attractions such as Marble Mountain need further public input in order to attract private sector investment. Mr.

Speaker, we have seen, as I said, tremendous growth at Marble Mountain. And I am pleased to say that over the next number of years we will see continued growth -and this growth is not simply for a specific area. We all .know that we can attract tourists here in the wintertime so that they can enjoy, not just the scenic attractions of the Cor~er Brook area which, I suppose, I tend to lean towards and be fond of, being born and bred in that particular area, but, Mr. Speaker, that is an area that can be developed for the good of ·all Newfoundland. We must attract private sector investment to that particular area.

Mr. Speaker, I firmly believe that if we can attract a tourist here in the dead of winter when there is snow mountains high, that if they can enjoy the hospitality and the accommodations and the service that we can offer them there is no question, Mr. Speaker, that they will also look to come back during the summer months to get a taste of the rest of this Province. Historical and natural attractions capable of attracting international visitation require the basic infrastructural servicing and enhancement. The range of available sites include areas such as Red Bay, L'Anse-au-Meadow, Gros Marne, and yes, Mr.

Speaker, even in my own area of Bell Island where a sunset over Conception Bay is something to behold. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Walsh: Many more require further enhancement and include everything up to and including the No. 44 R20

City of st. John's, with the establishment and enhancement of key generators and community attractions, improvements in the tourist services, both of information, upgrading of our signage programs, food and accommodation sectors, and other factors, must continue simultaneously.

We cannot ask just the operators in this Province, who themselves are finding it harder and harder to attract funds from the banks and from other areas, we cannot ask them to not only carry the burden of the training of their staff and the upgrading of their facilities, we must have a mechanism by which we can reach out and attract a visitor here from other markets, both international and domestic, and, in particular, in other regions of this country. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The bon. gentleman's time is up. Mr. Walsh: Mr.

Speaker, I will have more to say in the closing portion of it, but I trust, in my closing remark at this time, that bon. Members of the House will see the need for this motion and will truly support it when the vote comes at 5:00 p.m. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Member for Mount Pearl. Mr. Windsor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I welcome this opportunity to address the tourism industry in Newfoundland and Labrador, and specifically this resolution put forward by the bon. the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island.

Let me begin by saying I do not L21 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI think anybody can have any difficulty with this resolution. Anybody who is familiar with the tourism industry will know full well the need for additional funding through a joint federal/provincial agreement, and, certainly, I do not think we will have any problem supporting this particular resolution at all, Mr. Speaker. In fact, we encourage it, knowing, of course, that a federal/provincial agreement is just around the corner; it is almost signed. The debate is somewhat redundant, in that I think it is almost a fait accompli.

Nevertheless, I think it is an important opportunity to put forward and to highlight some of the needs and requirements of the tourism industry in Newfoundland and Labrador. I think we should recognize first of all, Mr. Speaker, that the tourism industry in Newfoundland and Labrador is one of our major industries.

Indeed, it is probably the fastest growing industry, as the bon. gentleman says in his resolution, and it is certainly one of the greatest contributors to employment opportunities and to diversification of the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador, particularly rural Newfoundland and Labrador, as I said in a debate, I guess the Budget debate, not too long ago, when I took some time to talk about tourism during that debate. And it is a tremendous opportunity. I need to say once again, Mr.

Speaker, although I have a tremendous number of positive things to say about this particular resolution, I have no problem with the resolution, I have to point out that I am pleased the hon. Member has been victorious, and I congratulate him No. 44 R21

on his ability resolution and on his to redirect the Government's position on tourism in Newfoundland and Labrador. The Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, some time ago in a speech in this House of Assembly, said the tourism industry is a seasonal industry. I watched the Kember for Mount Scio, who has made a tremendous contribution to the toudsm industry, both in his professional capacity and private capacity, and as the President of Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador, I watched him slide under the seat that day, when the han. Minister of Finance said the tourism industry is a seasonal industry. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is the greatest problem. Out of all the problems the tourism industry faces in Newfoundland and Labrador, be they financial or whatever, the greatest problem we face in Newfoundland and Labrador is attitude, the kind of attitude the Minister of Finance displayed on that particular occasion. I think that really is a very serious problem, Mr. Speaker, because you will never fully develop the potential of that industry in this Province unless that attitude is changed.

In subsequent statements by the Minister of Finance, in his Budget, by the way, he totally contradicted himself, and perhaps it was the Member for Mount Scio who managed to kick some sense into the Minister of Finance. If he will tell me how he did it, I would be delighted. Because I have been trying to kick some financial sense into the Minister of Finance for a number of months, and I am a total failure in that regard. If the han.

Member could L22 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI manage to tell me how he kicked some sense into the Minister of Finance as it relates to the tourism industry in this Province, or the view of the Government on the tourism industry in this Province, then I would be delighted to know. Because in his Budget Speech, Mr. Speaker, he said the Government sees the Province not only as the seasonal summer destination, but also as an all-season tourist alternative.

That is quite a departure from the statements he made not too much earlier than that; probably within a month or so prior to the Budget Speech, the Minister of Finance made that statement. He got his fingers burned on that, and he should really stand and apologize to the tourism industry, which will be his fourth apology this month; he is getting good at it. But it is nice to hear him say that. Mr. Speaker, let me get on to something more positive.

Before I leave the Minister of Finance, who is my favourite whipping boy, of course, I should mention that the Minister of Finance, who, in his Budget Speech says, 'We see it as an important industry' turns around and imposes a payroll tax which will affect the tourism industry perhaps moreso than anybody, because it is very much a labour-oriented, labour-intensive industry. So the impact on the tourism industry will be quite significant.

Then, of course, he stole another $2.5 million through the Liquor Commission, out of the pockets of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, and that, obviously, also will have a major impact on the tourism industry. In putting together a tourism package that is competing with other Maritime Provinces, difficult No. 44 it makes to put it much more together a R22

.:.:..:... package that is competitive financially in that ~ega~d. Now, M~. Speake~, let me deal with the Tou~ism Subsidiary Agreement, and specifically the need for it. I would hope we don't have to tell bon. Members of this House how important the tourism industry is in this Province. I believe most bon. Members at least know something of the need for funding in this Province. As I go ,th~ough the Budget, and du~ing the Budget debate I made mention of the fact, that there is a total absence of funding fo~ accommodation development and fo~ travel generato~s in this Province.

No doubt that was largely due to the fact that the Tourism Subsidiary Agreement had expired. During the detailed study of the Estimates, I asked the Minister, who is not here today, why there was no funding there. Of course, I knew the answer before I asked the question, otherwise I wouldn't be so foolish as to ask it. I knew it was relating primarily to the lack of a federal/provincial agreement. It is obvious that we do need it and, no doubt, amendments will be made. It will be interesting to see how the Minister of Finance reacts now, because there is no provision in this Budget for the provincial component.

So we will be looking at another Special Warrant, hopefully, assuming we get a Tou~ism Subsidiary Agreement in the very near future. I am hopeful , in fact, I am quite confident we will, and then the Minister will have to come in with the Provincial component. But many of the needs in area, Mr. Speaker, have that been L23 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI covered, as of late, through the ACOA agreement. So the Fede~al Government has been picking up a large percentage of the need for improving the physical plant of tourism in this Province.

There is always room for more, but, as I think the bon. the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island said, we have made tremendous strides in the past number of years . And it was essential. He made ~eference, and I thank him for his comments, relating to the period of time that I was Ministe~ of Tou~ism. We made tremendous st~ides du~ing that period of time in imp~oving the tourism plant in the Province, particularly, accommodations and services to the tourist. Prio~ to that period, I think, and to the time since, a tremendous amount of emphasis had been placed on trying to attract tourists here.

As we ~eviewed it, it was very obvious to us that you can attract all the tourists you wish, but if you don't have the services and the facilities available, fi~stly, to keep them here, secondly, to provide the services they demand, they need, and are willing to pay for, and, thirdly, to take the tourist dollar out of thei~ pocket - all too many tou~ists have come to this Province, enjoyed the beauty, the scenery and the natural environment we have to offer, and went away with almost as many dollars in their pockets as they brought with them.

We 11 , that is nice for our image, but it does nothing for the financial situation of the P~ovince and does nothing for the tou~ism industry of the Province. It became obvious to us that we needed to upgrade the se~vices and facilities offered to these tourists so we could take better advantage of the tou~ism dollar that came into our Province. No. 44 R23

I think we have made tremendous strides, but we have a long way to go yet; we have a very long way to go before we truly develop our tourism industry. And that gets us to the potential of the tourism industry as an employment generator, because it really is, Mr. Speaker. Tourism employment opportunities are where you look for them, and they are all around us. There is not a community in this Province which does not have the potential to develop a tourism indus~ry and to create employment.

That will be extremely important, particularly in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, where we all know the fishing industry cannot be depended on in future to the extent it has been in the past as a major employment generator, and as a major basis for the whole economic stability of those communities. It would probably be a much better opportunity, Mr.

Speaker, than the Minister of Labour's alternative, which was 'go to Social Services if your fish plant closes down.' So I would suggest the Minister of Labour have a look at utilizing and building on some of the potential the tourism industry offers in creating employment. Rural Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker, is extremely unique in that regard. For years, as I have said, people have been coming to see the beauty, the unique character, the history and culture of rural Newfoundland and Labrador, and I think we should build on it.

I have said in this Chamber before that I am resisting the water slides and the Walt Disney type of development. We have to recognize that there is a place for some of that, that young people today, children particularly, are looking for L24 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI those sorts of things, and parents on vacation want to have a certain number of those things to help occupy the children, to keep them busy throughout the day. But we must be careful to develop our tourism industry along a well-balanced plan, and I think we have made some progress. Marble Mountain, which the bon. gentleman referred to, is a good example.

It must be ten years ago now that we initiated a study on Marble Mountain to see what was ils potential as a major tourist distination, as a travel generator, and it was identified, along with the golf course at Terra Nova Park and one or two other things, as major travel generators. And together with the tourism industry, together with the people involved in the ski club and the community people in that area who were interested in the ski area, I think we have made tremendous progress, and together with private enterprise.

And here is a key, that the public sector cannot always finance all the tourism development that is necessary in the Province. But together with the Federal Government, through a subsidary agreement, together with private enterprise, together with local non-profit organization groups, such as the ski club was, who had a nice little club, they were enjoying their club - I remember very well and it is interesting, and let me make mention of Mr. Bennett, who is in the audience today, who is my former executive assistant, let me pay tribute to Mr. Bennett. Mr.

Walsh t"eferred to him without specifying his name specifically. Mr. Bennett, who is now the Executive Director of Hospitality Newfoundland, has made a major contribution to the tout"ism industry in this Province, No. 44 R24

and I think he, together with the executive and all the members of that association, are largely responsible for many of the improvements and the advances that we had in tourism. And the han. the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island hired him. I might say he had good training, though, before the hon. Member hired him. But he has gone well ahead, Mr. Speaker, and made a tremendous contribution. So I pay him that compliment. I recall the night that he and I travelled, on a Sunday evening, and sat in the ski lodge at Marble Mountain and met with the ski club at the time. An Hon. Member: He is there. Mr.

Windsor: He is there. Oh, yes, I knew he was there. An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Windsor: I remember the night we went to Marble Mountain and sat in the ski lodge, on a Sunday evening, and met with the executive of the club and discussed the future.

We made it clear to them at the time, because it was clear to us, that in order for that facility to proceed past what it was, which was a private club with about 600 or 700 members at the time, needing tremendous improvements, needing new ski lifts, needing snowmaking equipment, needing expanded facilities for apres-ski and the rest of it, it was clear that it could no longer continue to be supported only by public funding.

We could not expect the taxpayers of the Province to contribute any further to the millions of dollars that had been put in it prior, unless it was opened up to the rest of the Province, and unless L25 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI it could be used a travel generator.

I think that was done, and the executive of the day had the foresight to recognize what we were saying, that it was not losing a facility, it was not giving up the specific rights and the privileges they enjoyed in that facility, but it was making a provincial facility available to so many more people in the Province, and from out of the Province, and allowing it to develop as a major travel generator. And the benefits to their region I think they were able to foresee, and perhaps very few people could have been able to foresee it.

But I believe they understood what we were saying to them, that the facility could be used as a major travel generator. And we are seeing it today. In the Corner Brook area, in the Steady Brook area and Deer Lake, during the winter months there is a tremendous amount of activity. And again I compliment the private sector. I believe it was Air Nova which became very much involved with the Glynmill Inn, and perhaps Eastern Provincial or Air Atlantic. I don't know which one it was; both of them, I believe. Air Nova originally took the initiative, and the promotion they put in - the han.

Member for Stephenville was involved in that, perhaps, through Air Atlantic. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) through Air Atlantic, yes. Mr. Windsor: Yes, all the groups involved in that played a major role in developing now a major industry in western Newfoundland and Labrador. Try to get an hotel room on the weekend. Just go out there and see the people coming into the airport with ski bags and all the rest of it, and dressed in No. 44 R25

ski clothes. To see what is happening in Corner Brook on weekends is exciting; it's exciting to see that. It is the same sort of thing we see around Clarenville now, the White Hills ski resort, which is a private initiative again! It is starting to develop; they have had some tough luck with weather and getting started, but they have received some good financial support and, hopefully, they will survive the bad year they had. Because I think there is a tremendous potential there.

And what White Hills has done is not take away from Corner Brook, it has complemented Corner Brook because it has made skiing available to so many more people from the Avalon peninsula, which still has 50 per cent of the population of the Province and, without being unkind, has probably, on the average, a higher family- income level than many other areas of the Province, and so a greater disposable income to spend on this sort of thing.

So the market for skiing is probably larger on the Avalon peninsula than in the rest of the Province, but it was so far to go to Corner Brook to get an acceptable level of skiing, and White Hills now has opened it up. It has aroused the interest of thousands of people on the Avalon peninsula. People who never heard of skiing before are now excited, and on weekends are going to White Hills. And when they get a taste of it at White Hills, which is - Dr. Warren: (inaudible). Mr. Windsor: Minister of correct. He Now they get And students And students.

The Education is quite is quite correct. a taste of it at L26 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI White Hills, which is an excellent facility, and they say we have to check out Corner Brook, we hear so much about Marble Mountain. And it is such a majestic mountain! Both of these facilities are excellent travel generators, and I speak of them only as an example of the type of thing that can be done and that needs to be done and for which we need - An Hon. Member: Labrador west is even better. Mr. Windsor: Labrador west is a tremendous potential as a cross-country ski facility.

It was built as a cross-country ski facility a number of years ago, by the previous Government, for hosting part of the games, as I recall, the National Cross-Country Ski Championships. The national ski team tt·ains up there; it is a tremendous facility. There are a number of them. The Goose Mountain, in Goose Bay, is a fine facility. And there is a group of individuals hoping to develop a ski facility very near St. John's, and I hope that Government gives them the kind of support we were prepared to offer them prior to the election, because I think it is a good opportunity. Mr.

Hogan: You won't be able to get to it on the ferry. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) water ski. Mr. Windsor: Water skiing might be appropriate on the Avalon peninsula. Let me get into another area, Mr . Speaker, because it's an area that • s close to my heart, and on which I saw, again, Mr. Bennet quoted in a newspaper in the last few days, which is utilizing the rail corridor across the Province, and I have spoken on No. 44 R26

it before in this House. Last year, in an at tempt to raise the awareness of the potential of the former rail right-of-way, a group of individuals travelled by snowmobile from Corner Brook to Gander, led by Mr. Derm Doyle, and I, in fact, had proposed and was leading a group from this end, but, of course, the fact that we had no snow made it very difficult. Very difficult! But I am determined, if we get a reasonable winter next year, that I will indeed go by - Dr. Warren: (Inaudible). Mr. Windsor: The Minister of Education hopes we don't. An Hon. Member: On skis? Mr.

Windsor: Not on skis, on snowmobile - on snowmobile. It is two years in a row now that I have had the desire to - Mr. R. Aylward: tow him behind, wanted to. Neil, you could on skis, if you Mr. Windsor: Tow him behind me? Why not? But two years in a row I have tried to plan a trip from Port aux Basques to St. John's on snowmobile, and I would like to do it. I would like to do it to raise the awareness of tourism in the Province, and to raise the awareness of the potential of that corridor, which is unique.

It is a unique opportunity for us, and I have urged the Government before, the Minister of Development who is here, and the Minister of Transportation, I have urged them before to be very careful about alienating sections of that corridor. I know there are discussions taking place with many municipalities and various groups in this Province about utilizing L27 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI the rail corridors. If they are utilized for recreational purposes and maintained so that the corridor is still available, I do not have a problem.

But I am aware that there are discussions taking place of developing industrial parks, for example, and eliminating that corridor, interrupting that corridor, and I think that would be a tremendous mistake. If I am not mistaken, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland is the only Province which does not have a designated snowmobile route right from one end of Canada to the other. I have some magazines and some brochures describing snowmobile tours, and snowmobile routes, for example, in Quebec, where it has become a major industry, and I would submit that it can become so here.

In Quebec, there are organized routes for snowmobiling. They are groomed in some cases; there are services along the way; there are guides and various services such as that available to take inexperienced snowmobilers; there are those looking after the safety of snowmobilers along the way; and you can make a major snowmobile trek in relative safety and with relative comfort and services along the way. Let us take an example. I have spoken with some people in Clarenville about the old Bonavista rail line, from Clarenville to Bonavista.

Here is an area that is steeped in history and culture, that has a tremendous amount of scenic beauty to offer, and I think could certainly benefit from additional employment. What a beautiful opportunity to start in Clarenville on a Saturday morning. Drive from st. John's, No. 44 R27

say, stay in Clarenvill, at a hotel, on a Friday night, leave Saturday morning and go to Bonavista, with services along the way, because that old rail line goes through all the cornmuniti~s on the western side of Trinity Bay, then stay, perhaps, in Bonavista overnight, and then go back again on Sunday. What an excellent opportunity that would be for a weekend excursion, available, again, for people all over the Province, but certainly for people from the Avalon Peninsula.

I think there is a real potential there to develop restaurants, hospitality homes, services for maintenance of snowmobiles, and that sort of thing, along the route, and maybe even a pub or two. Mr. Speaker, there is a tremendous opportunity. A Tourism Subsidiary Agreement is essential: It is essential to develop some of the major tourism generators, it is essential to give the industry the tools they need to continue to develop, it is essential so that Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador, I might say, can continue.

Because, as I said earlier, Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador has been the major catalyst which has brought the industry together - Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The hon. Member's time is up. Mr. Windsor: If I may, by leave, thirty seconds. Some Hon. Members: By leave. Mr. Speaker: By leave. Mr. Windsor: -brought the industry together, Mr. Speaker, which has allowed them to make the L28 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI tremendous strides they have made in the past number of years. The Subsidiary Agreement, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure, and I certainly hope, will contain funding for Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador so that not only can they continue with the work they have done, but that it can be expanded as well. Thank you, very much. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Placentia. Mr. Hogan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to stand in support of the resolution placed before the House today by my hon. colleague, and so ably addressed by both he and the Member for Mount Pearl.

It is somewhat ironic that such a resolution would come to the floor for discussion today, when we hear a decision made by my Government concerning the year-round service into Argentia, a promotion which was built on fostering tourism, particularly in eastern Newfoundland, and, in particular, in the Argentia area. I must say for the record, Mr. Speaker, that I absolutely and unequivocally disagree with that decision. I think it was ill-conceived, it was ill-advised and not based on very much substance.

One of the reasons, as I understand it in the release, was that there would be subsidized rates which would affect the water carriers using the port of St. John's. Mr. Speaker, in my limited knowledge, and based on fifteen years of fighting for this particular service, as I understand it, predatory rates are not permitted by law. I think The Competition Act, as I am advised anyway, would not allow Marine Atlantic, in any way, to be No. 44 R28

subsidized to the detriment of any other carrier; it is based on the fact that it would be detrimental to the Port Corporation of St. John's. Mr. Speaker, again, if memory serves me correct1y, I read a very optmistic

article in one of the papers last week, or certainly within the last two weeks, where a representative of the St. John's harbour facilities spoke in glowing terms of the future of the harbour and how it was going to expand. I might also mention the advocates who are going to drill a tunnel into the hills of St. John's to expand the harbour, probably even into Freshwater Bay. This indicates to me, Mr. Speaker, and han. Members of the House, that the St. John's Harbour is overburdened now.

We, the advocates for Argentia year-round service, particularly the locals, were always advocating that we would settle for the spillover, the extra freight that cannot be handled in st. John's. I would also point out that in the same article, again if memory serves me right, that for the last number of years, probably five or six years, there have been 2, 000 sailings, on average, into the Port of st. John's. Now, using very basic arithmetic, Mr. Speaker, this Government supports nineteen weeks of service into Argentia; that would leave thirty-one extra weeks that I am looking for.

Now if we multiply that by two, we get sixty-two, I think, and if we deduct sixty-two from 2,000, I say it is a very small percentage of the sailings into St. John's. That might be an oversimplification, but that is the fact of the matter. We are also told that it is going L29 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI to adversely affect the Port aux Basques region. We are asking, in peak season, two sailings a week out of thirty, a very small percentage. In the lowest ebb of the season, again going by memory, I hope han.

Members will not hold me to specifics, but as my memory serves me, in the lowest time of the season it would be two out of fourteen sailings that would be coming into Argentia, and that is only for thirty-one weeks of the year. It also says that it would affect Corner Brook. Well, now, that, to me, does not make very much sense. Who in their right mind is going to ship freight into Corner Brook destined for the Avalon or destined for eastern Newfoundland? I would also ask the question, who in their right mind is going to ship freight into Argentia destined for Corner Brook? To me, Mr.

Speaker, that eliminates Corner Brook. Corner Brook has nothing to fear from the year-round service in Argentia. We are also told, Mr. Speaker, that it would have some effect on employment in the st. John's area. The Federal Government, Mr. Speaker, in the fall of 1988, I think just about the time we were getting into a Federal election, the Minister of Transport, Benoit Bouchard, I think at lhe time, commissioned a report or a study to look into the benefits or otherwise of a year-round service into Argentia. Mr.

Speaker, this was done against the advice, I might add, and wishes of the power brokers and the mandarins in Ottawa, those at the ADM level and the Deputy Minister against National. No. 44 level, the wishes However, and, indeed, of Canadian there was a R29

study commissioned which was assigned to a group called ADI Consultants. When they were commissioned, Mr. Speaker, I was fearful that after fourteen years of battling for this particular cause, without much resources, I might add, except our own beliefs and our own inadequate resources and studies, that what we were saying was going to be completely undermined by this particular report. These professionalists were called in, Mr. Speaker, and you could almost call them prejudicial to what they were looking into. They released their report in January, 1989, after a year of studying, Mr.

Speaker, and they determined quite a number of facts which were, to me at least, completely ignored in the statement that was made today. Those particular. facts and figures say that there would be -if I remember correctly, what it .said was the effect on employment in the St. John's area would be marginal, if at all.

It also played up the great advantages to tourism through the fact that there would be a new corridor, the fact that there would be a great new link to the Province from the other provinces, that we would have an in and out exit with travellers, whether they be freight handlers or whether they be tourists, who could enter the Province and exit at the other end or vice versa. Mr. Speaker, in our drive to get this service, we had great assistance from the North Sydney group, Cape Breton area, and a very small percentage -I forget just how many now, Mr.

Speaker, but I think it was something like 32 per cent of travellers reaching the Cape Breton area actually come on to Newfoundland, because, Mr. L30 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI Speaker, they are not likened to entering into one end of the Province and having to travel back all over the route again, and this is in the off season. That leaves, Mr. Speaker, again using simple arithmetic, 68 per cent of quite a number of travellers on the other side who would probably come to Newfoundland, and have stated in surveys in the Cape Breton area who would indeed come to Newfoundland, if they had the in and out exit. Also, Mr.

Speaker, I see no reference in the Minister's statement to highway safety. As most Members will recall, I appeared on Cross Canada, or· a Cross Talk Show, I think they call it, on CBC not long ago, and one of the people who called in was a trucker. Again, Mr.

Speaker, I might also add that this report here, which apparently has been ignored by the decision-makers or the advisors to the decision-makers, outlines that they have checked with the fish companies, they have checked with trucking associations, they have checked with purchasing agents, they have checked with the majority of municipalities in eastern Newfoundland, every source, and the most recent one this morning, the City of St. John's, and all upheld their support for the Argentia year-round service. Well, Mr.

Speaker, getting back to what I was saying, one of the main features was to save on the wear and tear on the Trans-Canada Highway, which is so expensive for us to keep up, and, more importantly, the safety of the travelling public was a consideration in support of the year-round service. No. 44 R30

Getting back to that radio show, I can recall this trucker coming on the line and saying how supportive he was of being able to, particularly in the winter months, enter the Province with freight, and after, I think it was eight years or twelve years - eight years I think it was - of travelling to the Province, particularly in the wintertime, how much better it would to come in through Argentia, land his freight, and travel across the Province, picking up freight along the way and going back through Port aux Basques with that freight. Mr.

Speaker, I feel confident that the people who have to make the final decision on this will listen to the vast majority of the people of Newfoundland, particularly those in the eastern region, that this particular year round service is not only good for the Argentia area but it is good for the Province. And I see in the release that consideration is given to it being detrimental to certain sectors in St. John's, and certain sectors in Corner Brook, and also brief reference to the District represented by my friend the Member for LaPoile. Having said that, Mr.

Speaker, I am quite disappointed that the Government decided to take this stand or take this particular position. Although I disagree with my Government, I do not see any need to do what some Members suggested and go over there and sit over there, God forbid. But if some of the people on the other side of the House - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Hogan: That depends on one's point of view. L31 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible). Mr. Hogan: Mr.

Speaker, if Members were paying attention to those who are speaking and not exchanging old wives tales or whatever they are up to they would hear my words of wisdom, and probably lend me some support, when and if they get the courage to stand and speak on this particular subject. I leave my colleagues, Mr. Speaker, with those few remarks, the hon. Member for Mount Pearl, as I said, and the hon. Member for Mount Scio. And I am sure the speakers will adequately address the subject of tourism. Bear in mind that the Argentia year round service is very important to that. I would also add that the hon.

Member for Mount Pearl happened to mention the White Hills in the Clarenville area. That particular project was depending a great deal on attracting maritime traffic through Argentia if the Argentia year round service came, and as a matter of fact I think it is part of their business plan. And the one in St. John's was also mentioned, which also depends on people in other provinces visiting us and enjoying our unique hospitality and be able to do their skiing at the same time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: Order, please!

The han. the Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Simms: I do not wish to take away the time of Members debating in this very important debate concerning an important resource area, but there is a matter, and No. 44 R31

perhaps the Government House Leader might be able to comment. There is a matter I want to raise because I think it affects procedures that we are using in the House, particularly as it applies to the Legislation Review Committees. There is a problem that is arising that I hear about from time to time. But very specifically I want to deal with a situation that has just come to my attention.

The Chairman of the Resource Legislation Review Committee, the Member for Bonavista South, yesterday afternoon put out a release over the wire which announces that public meetings on two particular pieces of legislation: the Fish Inspection Act, and the Livestock Health Act public meetings will be held tonight. Now the release did not go out until yesterday afternoon, and I would submit to the Government House Leader that that is hardly in keeping with giving the public a good opportunity to participate in the process, which is after all the main reasons for holding these meetings.

Now I know there are times, because of emergency situations, where that is very difficult to do. There may be pieces of legislation that must be dealt with quickly. But surely, those that require scrutiny or give the public the opportunity to have some input should at least give them a weeks notice if you can or something like that. I want to raise it not to get into a debate here today, but I want to raise it because I think it is an important point.

I understand that the Clerk of the Commit tee, and I am not picking on any particular Commit tee, but I happened to have L32 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI this one, Members on week ago. sent May a notice out 23, which was to a So I do not know why the public press release could not have gone out at the same time, at least the public would have had a weeks notice. I want to raise it. I will leave it with Your Honour and perhaps Your Honour might see if there is some way that we can resolve this, or some ruling that might need to be made or something. Maybe the Government House Leader and I can discuss it as well.

But I just mentioned those two so that the press, at least, will know about those two items being discussed tonight. Maybe the Committee itself - An Hon. Member: tonight. There is one Mr. Simms: One tonight. - might deal with it at their own meeting tonight. If there is a strong enough feeling among Members they might wish to defer the matter, if it is not urgent, and give the public a bit more notice. I am sorry, there is only one tonight, that is The Fish Inspection Act, just to clarify. The Fish Inspection Act ls tonight and the other one is June 6.

Obviously, there is not much notice on The Fish Inspection Act. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I did not mean to interrupt the hon. the Member. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South on the point of order. Mr. Gover: Just to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. All meetlngs of all the No. 44 R32

Legislation Review Committees are public meetings unless they are clear to be in camera meetings. Of course we follow the usual procedure, the first meeting is a meeting with the officials of the Department concerned to get an explanation of the Act, which is the purpose of tonight's meeting. The officials from the Department of Fisheries are going to be present to give an explanation of the Act. And that, since it has not been declared to be an in camera meeting will be a public meeting.

After the meeting with the Departmental officials, which we will have tonight, the Committee then decides what form of public input it will solicit, whether that be public hearings around the Province or a request for written briefs. So in no way does the fact that there is short notice tonight preclude public input into that particular Bill, should the Committee decide to solicit public input into that particular Bill.

There was a complaint in the Telegram, I believe, on the weekend about the press not being informed of the meetings, the first initial meetings of these Committees, to get the explanation from Departmental officials. I believe in the

article a suggestion was made that the dates and subject matter of the meeting should be published through NIS, which is what I did. So this is facilitating the press having access to these particular meetings and, unfortunately, it is short notice for the public, but this is kind of a routine, ordinary matter of business tonight to get an explanation from the Departmental officials, and in no way precludes the public from having input into this Bill if that is what the Committee decides. L33 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The hon. the Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr.

Simms: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just further to the point of order, not to belabour it or anything like that. I understand all of that. My point is, if it is a public meeting what is the point of having it a public meeting if you do not expect the public to attend? The notice that went out yesterday advertising the fact that there is a public meeting tonight on the fish whatever it is, I just forget now because I do not have it in front of me anymore, is being discussed tonight at a general meeting.

The general public over on the west coast or in central Newfoundland that might see this notice on the media yesterday or today, they would not understand all that procedure. All they would see is there is a public meeting and they would expect to have an opportunity to come and make a comment on it. That is the only point I am making. Maybe, we need to somehow refine it or look at it, to refine it or whatever, but there is a problem with it. I do not think there is any denying that. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Government House Leader. Mr. Baker: Just to that point of order, very briefly.

As the Opposition House Leader knows the Committees are masters of their own destiny in one sense, and he has raised a point, not being a Member of the Commit tee, and I am sure that is something that the Committee can take into account. I think what we should do is let the Committee see if they can No. 44 R33

resolve this problem on their own and see what happens in the next few days. They are in essence masters of their own procedures and so on. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Yes. The Government House Leader has raised a new point. I do not want to keep debating it because I know that han. Members want to discuss this resolution. But I do have to make the point that it is the House that appoints these committees and I think the House should give them direction if there are any problems that are raised. All I am pointing out is that there are a couple of problems that have been raised.

Whether they are valid or not is something that we have to determine, but I think they need to be raised and that is the only reason that I raise it. Mr. Speaker: To the point of order, it is probably not a point of order, but the han. Member has used the point of order to raise a concern of his. Maybe, he can work something out with the Chairman of the Committee and the Government House Leader, so there is no point of order. The han. the Member for Humber Valley. Mr. Woodford: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to say from the outset that the resolution introduced by the Member for Mount Sci a was a good one, and I suppose, timely, when you look at this time of the year, May, the time for tourist traffic in this Province. I would like to also say it is a motherhood issue. L34 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI When you talk about tourism, as far as I am concerned, anywhere in Canada today, but more specifically in this Province, it is a motherhood issue. I think he mentions in one of the Whereases where it is a vi tal part of our Province's economic recovery.

I agree with it, it is a vital part, and it is one of the areas that we can expand on, and it is one of the areas where we have not reached our potential by any means. The Member mentioned two of the previous Ministers, and I would like to echo his comments in giving them some praise in saying what kind of a job they did while they were in office. They did, Mr. Speaker, by every account, but we have a long way to go.

I say to the Ministers, and Government opposite, and to the Cabinet Minister, more specifically, although he is not here today, that there is a long, long way to go with regard to tourism in this Province. I am, I suppose, blessed with one of the best tourist areas in eastern Canada and probably in Canada, in North American, I would go so far to say, if the potential was realized.

I am sure the Humber Valley area, the Northern Peninsula area, and all the west coast of the Province, and the Province as a whole, if nothing else because of its size, when you look at its size, when you talk about square miles, approximately 158,000 to 160,000 square miles of territory encompassed in this Province. If it was one of the United States of America it would rank fourth behind Alaska, Texas, or California, so that would give you some example of how big t.his Province is, and the potential we do have. It holds approximately 580,000 people in such a huge territory and over such a large area. No. 44 R34

To break it down in more simpler terms it works out to around two people for every square kilometer, or four people for every square mile, and that is not much, so that will tell you something about the wildet"ness areas and the areas of this Province that are not even tapped, and cannot be seen by visitors to our Province because of inaccessibility. Mr.

Speaker, over the years the biggest complaint in my area, and in other areas, but more specifically mine because I can speak with some authority, is that, as mentioned earlier by a couple of speakers, is the fact that we have tourists coming into a certain area of the Province and they are not staying. We would love for pretty well everybody in the world to come and see what we have but we also want them to spend and drop some of their dollars, in order to realize the real economic conditions and benefits from such a visit.

In order for anybody to spend, no matter where they go or what they do, they have to have something to stay for, something for the children to do, let alone the adults, and that is something that our private sector, in conjunction with Govet"nment and Govet"nment Departments, must do and do quickly. I notice in the Humber Valley area, more specifically Deer Lake, Comack, and the White Bay area of the Province that three years ago the average stay for each tourist was approximately one and a half days.

I think last year, in three short years, mainly because of the increase in some of the infrastructural part of the tourism industry in that area that the staying time now is up to something like 3 to 3. 5 days, and that says something. If a tourist L35 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI comes into a certain area and stays for 3.5 days, he is either camping or staying in a hotel, a park, or what have you, and that means he is spending money in that area.

He is dropping some real dollars and is also taking advantage of the scenery and the different amusements and things to do in that area of provincial parks, private resorts and what have you. So that is the main thing. We can bring in all the tourists we like, we can have some very large figures, 500,000, 600,000, 700,000 tourists visiting our Island every year, but if we don't have something for them to stop and look at besides just the scenery driving through - we have that anyway. We have to put the things in place for them to stop and drop some so-called bucks, real dollars.

So that has been enhanced every year, and I notice, just in my area alone, in the last few years, the infrastructural part of that has been increasing rapidly. To add to that, tourism in this Province, basically is small business, and when I say small business, I am talking about the private entrepreneur and the person who has either private camp grounds or trailer parks, cabins, or what have you. They provide water slides, golf courses and other things to keep the tourists there.

They have risked a lot of dollars, big dollars put into infrastructure for a seasonal income; and when I say seasonal income, I am talking more specifically now, something to do with, as I said, water slides and that sort of thing. It can be expanded upon, and now, they are seeing that and putting it ln, more specifically on the west No. 44 R35

coast, where you do have the four seasons. When you get winter, Mr. Man, you've got it! You have no worries about using a skiddoo for three or four or five months of the year. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Woodford: Right. Well, You throughout the west coast. have the winds to contend with. Anyway, you can still do it. But, before, when they would make an investment in infrastructure, they had to base it on four or five or six months of the year, when the main traffic flow of tourism in the nice weather would have to be depended upon. Now they realize tourism anywhere in this Province, right from St.

John's to Port aux Basques , can be a year-round operation. Statements made earlier, that it can only be a seasonal thing, as far as I am concerned is wrong, and Members opposite have already expressed their opinion that it is wrong, it can be a year-round operation. And we have people in this Province, who have proven that it is a year-round operation, especially over the last couple of years when we talk about the White Hills of the Province and the Marble Mountains of the Province, more specifically.

Someone mentioned earlier this evening, as well, that the White Hills - I shall never forget when the White Hills was being talked about as another ski resort in Newfoundland. The comments coming from people, and those right in my area, were, My God, what is going to happen to Marble Mountain? They have such a large population on the east coast of the Province, there is no way they are going to come to Marble Mountain to ski. L36 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI And I used to have to take them on and be perfectly blunt and upfront, and say, look, we have one of the best skiing areas in eastern Canada.

The White Hills will only complement Marble Mountain, because of the weather conditions, because of the population having proximity to the White Hills and the people starting off in skiing, as was also mentioned earlier. I don't want to be repetitious, but I just want to make the point of what lt has done for Marble Mountain. A couple of years ago, Air Nova were offering certain tour packages for weekends during the winter months. Now, and I say, probably some of it based on what ls happening at White Hills, they go there to learn to ski and after so long, they want another challenge.

They want to get off the slopes in the White Hills and they want to get on to the slopes in Marble Mountain. When they get used to Marble Mountain they will come off the slopes there and they will just go on somewhere else, and they want bigger and better things in life. That is human nature. But it helps, it all jibes and helps with tourism and dropping dollars in certain areas. In our area now in the wintertime you cannot get a hotel room, anybody going to the west coast of the Province now in the wintertime, if you do not book, I would say probably as much as months ahead, you are in trouble.

Unless you get a real bad weekend all of a sudden, and even then - because I have heard operators say that even when we have a bad weekend we have more money coming in - because people have a tendency to spend more time in the restaurants, in the bars, make their rounds so to speak, there is nothing else to do, they cannot No. 44 R36

ski, so they will spend their money somewhere else. I do not want to spend too much time on Marble Mountain or the other areas there, or just pretend you are skiing, because there is so much else to talk about you just cannot do it in twenty minutes. One of the other concerns I have, and I hope I am out on this one, is that the Rural Development Authority used to lend up to $50,000 at three percentage points below prime. Now I understand that is integrated with the so-called NewCorp Enterprise, and I do not know what the actual make-up of that is as yet because I have not seen anything public on it.

But I hope it does not interfere with the small businessman in the Province when he does make - because even under that program there used to be some monies available for small businessmen when it came to tourism. And there was a stacking process tied in with the ACOA Program whereby ACOA and Rural Development would stack up to approximately $60,000. There was a stacking process, and I think ACOA' s maximum stacking was up to 65 per cent, if I am not mistaken, but up to a maximum of $60,000.

I do not think that included any interest buy- downs or any guarantees, but it was a good program to help a small business in the Province and I do not think that has been disbanded, but I would like to stress the fact of how important it was and still is to the small businessman in this Province. If we look at the interest today, just look at our interest rates today in Province, small businessmen rates prime this just L37 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI cannot stand it.

Look at a line of credit, even talk about the Employment Generation Program - I had a call this morning from one fellow who has got it out for thirty days, okay, he got it out for thirty days, he is paying interest on his line of credit, he got it out from the banks and so on, he is still waiting, that tells you how delicate and how volatile and how sensitive that we are in this Province when it comes to small business. We are mostly on borderline anyway until we increase the potential for more business. But it is one of the resources, Mr. Speaker, that we have control of.

We have control of our tourism industry in this Province. And the Minister through his efforts in trying to obtain a Federal/Provincial Agreement under Tourism, I do not know the details of it, but hopefully over the next short while one will be signed, and I as an MHA in this Province will be the first to say that the agreement should be signed. We should not be waiting any longer. And if it means the Feds, sobeit, but if it is the Feds and if they are dragging their feet they should get off their butts and do something about it. We need that money here in this Province. An Hon. Member: Right on! Mr.

Woodford: And if it is the Province, the same thing. But regardless of who it is or whose fault it is, we need it. We definitely need it. We have the potential here to do the job. We have the entrepreneurs here to do the job. That is one thing about a Newfoundlander, I have always said too that Newfoundlanders probably are afraid to take risks, but there is one thing in taking a No. 44 R37

foolish risk and there is another one to take a calculated risk.

And most people today in Newfoundland take a calculated risk, although they run into some hurdles along the way and they still cannot make it, through no fault of their own in a lot of cases, and in some small percentage, mismanagement. cases, in a because of But we have the entrepreneurs to take up the challenge if they are given a little prod by some of the bureaucrats and civil servants and politicians in the Province, because we can't, as Members in Districts in this Province watch people send in applications and let them be at the mercy of someone sitting behind a desk somewhere who don' t even know the area.

We as Members know each and every one of our Districts better than anybody in it because we get around, we answer questions and we are talking to people pretty well every day of the week on pretty well every issue, not just tourism, social services, unemployment every kind of an issue, so we are the ones who should be asked : what do you think of this or what do you think of that. Never mind putting an X on it and say I am sorry, it is no good. I have seen that.

I was only there four months as a Minister, but my first couple of weeks there I saw enough to turn your stomach when it came to applications being turned to one side by people who just don't know - I won • t say it here -what they are talking about period, and I don't mind standing up and saying it because it is true! I have often said it goes back to 1971 when I started the business L38 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI and it is still there today. It is still there today.

I farmed in spite of Government not because of it, and there are people in business today in this Province and trying to get in business today in this Province in the same predicament. Never mind what Government was there, Liberals are there now, but the same thing is happening, believe you me and you will see it. The other thing I would like to stress and I think there is a concern with all Members and more specifically my concerns would be I suppose, addressed by the Minister of Environment, and that is the litter problem which we have around the Province.

It wasn't put there yesterday, it wasn't put there last week, it has been there for sometime no doubt, but we have to address that. It came up in Corner Brook the weekend at the Humber Joint Council about recycling and things like that, and the money has been paid out to certain schools about how to get NOVA-is it NOVA RECYCLING? ... in Corner Brook. It's an excellent idea but he is not getting anything. He just can't get people and the businesses to bring in any, for instance cardboard. He sent twenty-nine tons of cardboard to the mill in Stephenville, Abitibi-Price -they could have taken 3,000 tons.

That • s 3, 000 tons that could have been kept out of our ditches and out of our dumps and out of our homes and into something that is going to be sent away. Somebody can make money out of it at the same time, because the dumping problem in this Province is getting worse every day. We have nowhere to put it. The not in my backyard syndrome is there and it is getting worse and nobody wants to deal with anything when it comes to garbage. No. 44 R38

It would save just on cardboard alone, it would knock out - on cardboard and paper, it would knock 15 per cent of the total garbage which is going into the dumps, and at the same time clean up our communities, clean up our ditches and clean up our Province so it would be a better place in which to live, and a better place for tourist to come and see. There is nothing as bad as going along the road, no matter where you live, and looking up at a plastic bag stuck in a tree. Did anybody see that in the last little while?

I went through a community last week that just finished sending out thirty-five students on a Saturday - it's a perennial thing, it is done every year- that's what they do, on the so called May 24th weekend, they give all the Grade XIs, the community of Cormack, all Grade XI and XII students, no matter how many there are, let them go through the community on each side of the road and pick up all the garbage. Now, I drove in Saturday evening, I did it purposely because when I was Mayor I did it. I went in and in three places there were white shopping bags which had blown up into the trees during the winter.

As far as I was concerned, when I came back out the road, it was just as well they had left everything else in the ditches, because the only thing that struck my eye was the three plastic bags in the tree because it looked so bad, and it was outstanding, it struck you. It struck you right in the face. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Woodford: Oh, they came down. They came down believe you me, and I do not know what they did about it after. Not much, I suppose, they had paid out their L39 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI money and the job was supposedly done.

But it is just an example of what should and could be done to try to clean up the area. An Hon. Member: Pick up the bags in the area. Mr. Woodford: I know it is a big job, it is a big undertaking by anybody, but I think if we started off in each and every municipality, that would be our way of doing it because to do it globally and say Provincially let us do this or do that, you would never get it done. Mr. Tobin: bags? Did you take down the Mr. Woodford: I don't want to get into an argument with my friend on the Joseph and Clara Smallwood. Mr. Tobin: either. You had better not Mr.

Woodford: My time is up anyway, I just wanted to touch on it. I do not think that is over yet, and I think you know full well that it is not over yet. An Han. Member: That is right. Mr. Woodford: The decision is not made by the powers that be. The representation made by the Minister today is one thing. The real decision, I would say, we will see over the next couple of weeks. Mr. Tobin: I hope it is the right one then. Mr. Woodford: But in any case, Mr. Speaker, I know my time is up so I thank the han. Member for bringing in such a resolution, and personally I support the resolution.

I urge the Minister, No. 44 R39

although he is not heLe, but I will do it thLough his Cabinet colleagues to make suLe that he is cognizant of what the toudsm industry can and should do foL this Province in the yeaLs ahead. ML. Tobin: Good man . Good speech . Some Hon. Members: HeaL, hear! Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for Stephenville. Mr. K. Aylward: Thank you, Mr. SpeakeL. It is a pleasure to Lise and speak on this Lesolution put forward by the Member for Mount Sci a - Bell Island. A Member who has a great background, and great expeLience in the hospitality industry.

In his pLevious experience he was PLesident of Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador, and therefore the resolution is put forward by a peLs on who has quite a background in pLomoting touLism. I say that we support his resolution wholeheartedly. ML. Speaker, we aLe talking about touLism and the promotion of touLism and getting an agLeement signed to help pLomote it . One of the things we have that is pLobably most attractive to the world and to the people of Canada and elsewheLe, is the environment we have. And that I believe in 1990 and into the 1990's is going to be our major attraction.

The environment that we have, the water and the air being as clean as it is and so on, is a great attraction for people to come to this Province to get heal thy, to be healthy, and then to be able to avail of the scenery that we have. And I believe that as a strategy for the 1990's that we promote the environment we have and I am very L40 May 30, 1990 Vol XLI sure that our Minister who is responsible for environment will be bringing forward and is initiating a number of actions in that area.

I believe it to be the futuLe for touLism in this Province as we go, because it is the leading issue in the world today, and it is displacing everything else very quickly and we have to take advantage of that. And also doing that we also have to protect it as we promote it, and that has to be, I think, the main aim in doing that. And I believe if we do that, that we are going to see tremendous growth in the tourism industry in this Province, and we will see that happen if we plan it right for the future and bring about the proper changes and bring about the proper policies and programs.

I am quite confident that with our Minister of Tourism that we have and the MinisteL of Environment, that working with the GoveLnment and all MembeLs, we will see a further pLomotion of these activities. There was a refeLence given to me awhile back about the fog. You know, one touList was in the Province saying that he enjoyed the mist. He thought it was beautiful. The mist was beautiful. So, you know, the mist is beautiful and it should be pLomoted.

And all parts of the PLovince have different characteristics that are attractive and we should be doing more studying into what people like to see and what they would want when they visit, but I know that the environment itself is our biggest appeal, and I believe we have to promote that in our touLism strategy, especially into the 1990's. Within a year it has become the biggest issue in world events and I beli