Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th . Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, APRIL 28. 1975 ·sPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 40

April 28, 1975 The Hduse met at 11:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape No. 1832 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: NM - 1 HON. F. D. MOORES, PREMIER: Mr. Speaker, it is with deep regret that I announce to this House today the Member for Carbonear, the honourable Dr. Rowe will be resigning as the Minister of Health in mid May. Dr. Rowe is resigning for personal reasons. He advised me of his resignation some three or four months ago. Upon my request he stayed on until this time. Dr.

Rowe will be later today representing the Province - he will be leaving to represent the Province at the Beaumont Hamel celebrations where the book or remembrance which was unveiled in Ottawa and here in the Province will be unveiled at the site of Newfoundland's greatest moment,I suppose,in war, for that matter regarding peace as well. At Beaumont Hamel he will be representing the Province there after which he will be in the UK recruiting dentists and then returning around the middle of May and at that time his resignation will become effective. MR. NEARY: From the House or just from the - MR.

MOORES: No, just from the Cabinet. Dr. Rowe will be retaining his seat in the House of Assembly, hopefully for many years to come. However, the situation is that Dr. Rowe, Mr. Speaker, is a man who in many opinions, and certainly I share that opinion, was probably the best or certainly one of the best Ministers of Health this Province has ever known. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR.

MOORES: He has been not only conscientious in his department, Sir, but a man who I think is probably without any certainly great degree, any more than normal degree of political bias, a man who looks upon health as something that applies to every Newfoundlander, a man who has been very dedicated to that purpose. Since Dr. Rowe has been Minister of Health, he has been responsible, or it has been a,.;department that has been responsible for many 5346

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1832 NM - 2 progrannnes like the ambulance progrannne and a great many others. But particularly I think it is fair to say that during this past three years Dr. Rowe and the Department at that time will be remembered for having done a tremendous amount in the area of hospital construction. MR. NEARY: Finishing progrannnes we started. MR . MOORES : The Health Science Complex, the majority of the money that has been spent on that has been during the term of office of Dr. Rowe. The Bonavista Outpatients Hospital and the planning for the new extension was under his aegis.

The planning and soon to be commenced construction of the Burin and the Clarenville hospitals are the vork of Dr. Rowe, the completion of construction of the Carbonear Hospital, completion of construction of the Twillingate Hospital, the completion of the extension of Western Memorial Hospital, the completion and considerable extension, I thinla probably the one thing that gives him the most satisfaction,was the extension at Waterford Hospital and the recognition of the mental health problems in this Province.

The planned and planning and the extension to the Grand Falls Regional Hospital, and you could go on and on with the planning for Channel, Placentia, and a great many other areas, Mr. Spea ker, where Dr. Rowe has made a tremendous contribution. As I say, we are, and I personally am very sad to see Dr. Rowe resign from the Cabinet. He is a very fine man and I think anything said to the contrary would be personal vilification of the sort that certainly we do not need.

But I know members of my government are very sorry to see Gus Rowe leave and Sir it gives me - whilst it is regretful we wish him all the best of luck as he returns to medicine , as he practices the vocation which he practiced virtually all his life and on behalf of all the government we can honestly say that we are very sorry to see Dr. Rowe leave . 5347

April 28, 1975 Tape 1833 (morning) IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, let me first of all clear away the under- growth by saying that despite the Premier's invitation to enter into a personal vilification campaign, he will be the only one who does it in this House if it is done at all. Now, let me say, Mr. Speaker, that the announcetrent that the gentleman from Carbonear is to resign his portfolio as the Minister of Health is probably the least surprising announcement that the Premier could have made today or at any time.

It has been widely known throughout the medical profession and throughout those who deal with the Department of Health, throughout those who are at all concerned with the Health services of this Province, that the Minister of Health, the gentleman from Carbonear was profoundly dissatisfied with his role in the cabinet, with the voice he had in the cabinet, with the resuits he was able to obtain. I have heard rumors for the past year. I have heard rumors, Mr. Speaker, for at least the past year that the gentleman from Carbonear intended to resign as Minister of Health.

So, I would say that it is the least surprising announcement of all, the announcement which the Premier could have made this morning. I may add the Premier has done the House of Assembly his usual courtesy in making an announcement outside the House a half an hour before the Rouse was to meet. That itself speaks of the Premier's feeling for the House of Assembly. Now, Sir, I will be making a more extended col!DTlent at an appropriate time about the Minister of Health's decision to leave the cabinet. Let me say now two or three things very simply.

First of all I do not intend to enter into a question of who was the best Minister of Health we have had, but I am quite prepared to say that the gentleman from Carbonear,whom I have criticized on occasion when I felt it was warranted, has made every effort within his power to carry out his plans in the field of health, to expand health services, to improve them, to extend them and to provide the people of this Province with better health services. The fact that he has not been able to do so, Sir, the fact that he has not succeeded in even one­ tenth of his plans and his ambitions is not his fault.

It is the fault 5348

April 28, 1975 Tape 1833 (morning) IB-2 of his colleagues in the government who have consistently refused to support him. I know whereof I speak, Mr. Speaker. There has been occasion in this House within the past two or three weeks to make that obvious. The people of Hopedale and Labrador heard a speech on Thursday past which gave that reason also. Sir, I think the minister has made a valiant effort. I wish him well whether he practices at Carbonear or here in St. John's or wherever he practices medicine. The Minister of Health, the gentleman from Carbonear is a first class doctor.

I know he will put his heart and his soul into that just as he has put his heart and his soul into his ministerial duties , I hope and I believe that his medical efforts will be rewarded with more success and more satisfaction than have been his efforts as minister. It is not his fault, Sir. It is the fault of this administration. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Rear: Rear! MR. ROBERTS : Political obituaries are never pleasant things, Sir. But, I wish the Minister of Health had been able to leave office with a feeling - he will probably contradict me. I would expect him to in the circumstances.

His colleagues certainly will. But, Sir, I know whereof I speak. I speak the truth. I wish he had been able to leave office with a feeling of satisfaction and acheivement instead of the feelings of frustration and muted anger which he has had to contend with for the past while. That is why he is leaving the cabinet, Sir. That is why he is the sixth or seventh man to leave that cabinet in the past three years. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MIL SPEAKER: 0 rder, please! DR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of personal privilege.

I would like to say a few words in my own defence at the pleasure and satisfaction that I might have achieved or not achieved. But, I would like to refute any statement that I am leaving with any unhappy memories of my association with cabinet or with government. For the record I would like to state that in January of this year I requested the honourable Premier to relieve me of my portfolio as Minister of Health because of my desire to return to the practice of - 5349

April 28, 1975. Tape 1834 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is a matter of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Ifuile I certainly would appreciate the honourable Minister of Health wanting to make a few remarks, I certainly cannot consider it to be a point of personal privilege from a parliament procedure viewpoint. If the House would like to grant the honourable minister leave to make a few statements then I am certainly prepared to entertain that. Agreed? Agreed. The honourable Minister of Health. R!I - 1 DR. ROWE: (First

part inaudible.) - ministerial statement. Thank you. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. DR. ROWE: As stated I do not want to get into any arguments. I will let my record stand for itself on any question of criticism of my dissatisfaction or otherwise with my colleagues. But for the record, in January of this year I did request the honourable the Premie .r to relieve me of my portfolio as Minister of Health because of my desire to return to the practice of medicine. I indicated a resignation would be from Cabinet and I would retain my seat as member of the House for Carbonear.

The Premier requested and I agreed to stay on until after the estimates at which time he would accept my resignation and I want to state again that it is not:my resignation from Cabinet, it is not on the basis of any disagreement whatever with the Premier or with government. It is only because I am concerned about the lack of opportunity for clinical work in full time administration because I have been away from clinical practice and contact with patients for just over three years.

If I were to remain much longer in full time administration although it is within the health field I would have great difficulty in returning to hospital and clinic work. I would state that I have full confidence in the present government in the programmes which have been and are being developed and it is for this reason, Mr. Speaker, that I wish to remain a member of the House of Assembly. I assure the 5350

April 28, 1975. Tape 1834 RH - 2 people of my district that I will continue to exert every sincere effort that I can on their behalf and I would like to reiterate again my confidence in and my full support of the Moores P.C. administration and my decision to leave is to protect whatever I have with any professional status. Thank you. REPORTS OF STA.lWING OR SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I have for tabling as required under section (15) of the Farm Development Loan Act all of the financial statements of the Farm Development Loan Board. NOTICE OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Constabulary Act," a bill, "An Act Further To Amend the Registration Of Deeds Act", a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Retail Sales Tax Act," a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act," a bill, "An Act Respectin~ The Newfoundland Association Of Architects And Governing The Practice Of Architecture In The Province." MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I will on tomorrow introduce a resolution to this House reading, "Be it resolved that this House hereby recommends to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council the appointment of Ambrose Hubert Peddle to be the Parliamentary Co=issioner pursuant to the Parliamentary Commission(Ombudman' s)Act." MR. ROBERTS: Of all the cynical, political.,. PREMI ER MOORES: How about all the Supreme Courts - how about the district - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: We will give him the flick: Keep quiet: MR.

SPEAKER: If honourable members do not pay attention to the Chair calling for order, the Chair is likely to give some members the flick. 5351

April 28, 1975. Tape 1834 RH - 3 MR. SPEAKER: Oral questions. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER: Oh! I am sorry. The honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture on notice of motions. MR. COLLINS: I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Further Amend The Crown Lands Act." AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. COLLINS: Yes. Why is it always on a small bit of paper? ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE RAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. T.

HICKEY: I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Wild Life Act." MR.NEARY: You want to do it by leave? MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleasei MR. RICKEY: tille. MR. SPEAKER: do it by leave. I could not get up there two at a Order, please! If honourable members would obey the rule that when a member is speaking he has the right to be heard in silence, maybe honourable members to my left and to my right could hear when the Chair is calling the various routine orders of the day. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: Mil.NEARY: Inaudible.

We have a Notice of Motion that is not in order. 5352

April 28, 1975 Tape no. 1835 Page l - mw MR. PECKFORD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKEY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker • MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. PECKFORD: The Hon. Member for Bell Island persists in - MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing MR. PECKFORD: - interfering with the Chair, and I suggest and recommend, Mr. Speaker, that you take remedial action to see that while he is in his chair he remains silent. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I heard, Your Honour, call Answers To Question For Which Notice Had Been Given. The Minister of Tourism, Your Honour, got up and gave notice of inotion. Now I would submit, Your Honour, that unless leave of the House ia granted that his motion was out of order. Your Honour has to enforce the rules of the House. MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. Send for the tapes. First of all if the Hon.

Member for Bell Island had a point of order to make, he should have stood in his place when he had the opportunity, the first available opportunity and made the point of order. Secondly, Your Honour, to the suggested point of order that he is now trying to make when it is too late - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: MR. BARRY: (Inaudible) • Order, please! That is what he is trying to do. - to the spurious point of order he is now trying to make,it has traditionally been the custom, Mr.

Speaker, that if Your Honour does not happen to notice when a minister is getting up and a second passes and Your Honour happens to move on and calls the next order of business that Your Honour is prepared to revert back. 5353

April 28, 1975 Tape no. 1835 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: By leave. MR. BARRY: Not revert back by leave. If considerable time has passed , sure. But where it is a matter of His Honour, and he cannot see all aieas of the House, particularly when he got to keep his eyes on honourable members opposite to try to keep them in order that the - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: - · practice and tradition has been, Mr. Speaker, as honourable members opposite know that if it is a mere oversight and the Hon. Speaker has not seen a minister rising that he will permit - MR. NEARY: Only by leave. MR.

BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: - reversion to the previous order, The Hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr, Speaker, to that point of order let me just point out I attempted to rise three times. Your Honour could not see me because there was another minister up. MR. NEARY: And because - MR. HICKEY: I suggest the member for Bell Island - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKEY: - if he wants to be Speaker of this House, he should wait until the appropriate time about twenty years from now. S<ME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair has already said that if members of this honourable House obeyed the rule that when a member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence then it would be more convenient aad the proceedings of this House would run much smoother than they have been particularly over the last few minutes, It is very difficult for members either to my left or to my right perhaps to hear routine orders or anything else being said from this Chair if members persist in talking when they do not have the right to do so. Now perhaps the Hon. Minister of Tourism did rise. I did call, Anwers To Oral Questions.

However, the Chair is certainly prepared to accept,maybe that it is not 5354

April 28, 1975 Tape no. 1835 Page 3 - mw a parliamentary rule, a rule of common sense that the Hon, Minister of Tourism be given the right to give notice of motion of his bill. MR. NEARY: It has to be done by leave. AN HON. MEMBER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: his motion. MR. SPEAKER: Do not be an ignoramus. Keep quiet. I will grant the minister leave to int~oduce Order, please! Order, please! The Chair has already accepted the notice of motion given by the Hon. Minister of Tourism. MR.NEARY: By leave. AN HON. MEMBER: He does not need leave. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Hon, Premier, Sir, is prepared to put into action bis words over the weekend that the high cost of living is the biggest problem in NewfoundlBJld and implement some of recommendations of the Food Prices Review Board? Will the Premier do that, action instead of words? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Premier. MR . MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as the member for Bell Island well knows the remedial efforts that have to be made regarding inflation is one that is, I guess, exhausting the efforts of every government in Canada and every government in the world.

And certainly it is without any question, the top priority of this government right now to do what we can. Now what we can do is limited but what we can do, Mr. Speaker, we will be doing, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, Is the H6n. Premier aware that in the Food Prices Review Board Report submitted in November, 1974 that eight out of the ten recommendations made by the Food Pri~es Review Board fall under provincial jurisdiction? And,if so, 5355

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1836 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: would the Premier tell the House what action is going to be taken on implementing these recommendations? MR. MOORES: Yes,in time, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the Premier's answer and I wish to debate it on Thursday afternoon at the late show. MR. MOORES: That is good. MR. NEARY: Contempt for the Rouse. MR. MOORES: Contempt for you. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the honourable the Premier could tell the Roue, Sir, what is happening now concerning the strike by the liquor store employees? ~re ther~ any negotiations in progress at the moment? Is there a standoff, a complete impasse? What are the chances of getting these employees back to work so that the Province can get the badly needed revenue? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. L. BARRY. MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY: Mr.

Speaker, as I stated in this honourable House last Friday, the Liquor Corporation is prepared to negotiate, prepared to return to the bargaining table at any time. However, it takes two sides to negotiate, two sides to bargain and until the other side is prepared to get back, to sit down to negotiate, there does not appear to be anything that the Corporation can do at this stage or Treasury Board. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, supplementary quetion, Has word been sent or any request made of the other side to sit down to the bargaining table? ls the government prepared to negotiate in good faith, to alter their position? Are they prepared to make offers and counter offers and proposals and counter proposals in order to get this very urgent matter settled. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The honourable Member for Bell Island in his way of asking a question the Chair feels he is making a speech in doing so and certainly out of order. MR. NEARY: Supplementary question to the minister, Has word been sent to 5356

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1836 NM - 2 the other party,y~questing them to sit down to the bargaining table and negotiate in good faith? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, there was a public statement made in this House of Assembly. There was a press release issued by the Corporation stating quite clearly, flatly and bluntly that the Corporation is prepared to negotiate at any time. Now with reference to the willingness of the Corporation to negotiate in good faith, that can only be taken to mean that the honourable member believes that up to now the Corporation has not been negotiating in good faith. MR.

NEARY: change their position. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: The honourable member did not refer anything about the CoI1>oration not being prepared to change its position. The honourable member asked whether the Corporation was prepared to negotiate in good faith, the direct inference being that he believes that up to now the Corporation has not been negotiating in good faith, which Mr. Speaker, is a scandalous - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: is a scandalous approach for the honourable member to take. For the record, Mr.

Speaker, up to now there have been three new offers, I am sorry, at least two and I believe three changes in the Corporation's position, improvements in the offer made by the Corporation. The Corporation feels at this stage it has moved all it can until it sees countervailing willingness to move on the part of the other side in that there is no such thing as an ultimatum being given, but the Corporation President has m4de it quite clear that he believes that the present demands of the other side,of NAPE,are just too far beyond what the Corporation is prepared to consider. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, supplementary.

Just so I will not misunderstand the minister or the minister will not be misunderstood, is the minister saying then that the offer made on benalf of the Newfoundland Liquor Commission and on behalf of Treasury Board is final? That is it? Or are they prepared to sit down and make counter proposals? 5357

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1836 NM - 3 MR. JIARRY: Mr. Speaker, to 1!IY knowledg .e there has 11-.t been any ~timatum gi~en that this is the final, fixed, absolute pesition of the Corporation, Mr. Speake1;, just the o.pposite, The Corporation llas made it quite clear that it is prepared to negotiate. But it has also made it quite clear that it is not prepared to negotiate at the fifty-odd per cent level, which NAPE :ls looking for and that until NAPE is prepared to make a realistic proposal or get down to a realistic level, then the parties are going to unfortunately remain at an impass .e. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a questipn for the Minister of Justice, In view of the fact that the liquor strike looks like a long one and bootlegging is on: the rise, what is the minister doing about this increase in bootlegging? MR. Sl'EAKER: Order, please! This question is out of order. It 5358

April 28, 1975 Tape 1837 (morning) is more a statement of fact rather than a question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Tourism, Sir - he is not in his seat right now - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is gone to answer the phone but he will be right back. MR. NEAFY: Gone to answer the phone. Well, perhaps my colleague might want to ask his question while I am waiting for the minister, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation.

I wonder if the minister is aware IB-1 of the fact that there are some 18,000 to 20,000 pounds of salmon left over from last years catch in the refrigerator at the plant at ¥.akkovik. The community is quite concerned that by Spring the salmon will not be saleable. They consider it as a big debt on the plant now, and they want to know why the salmon is sitting there and have not been sold. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Rehabiliration and Recreation. HON. T. DOYLE (MINISTER OF REHABILITATION AND RECREATION): Mr. Speaker, I will undertake to get the answer and supply it to the member this afternoon. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista North. MR . THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Premier. Could the Premier inform this honourable Rouse when his government is going to make funds available so that the Gander Hospital can open the extra forty beds that it has lying up at the present time? MR. MOORES: Order Paper, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Justice could tell us whether the hail or not in the case of these gentlemen who skipped out has been paid? MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. HON. A. llICKMAN (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr. Speaker, that question is improper, but let me - highly improper, totally improper. MR. NEARY: It is in order. MR. HICKMAN: It is beyond comprehension of any sane man. But, may I say 5359

April 28, 1975 Tape 1837 (morning) one thing, Mr. Speaker, so that there can be no misunderstanding, that as far as breaches of the Narcotics Act is concerned, you know, colloquially known as drug cases, I as provincial Attorney-General, the Government of Newfoundland, this Rouse of Aasembly has absolutely IB-2 no jurisdiction, no knowledge, no right of knowledge. The responsibility for investigating and prosecuting under the Narcotics Act is the exclusive and absolute responsibility of the honourable Otto Lang, P.C., Q.C., M.P •. , Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada.

Re does this without consultation with me. Re does not use Crown prosecutors on my staff. Re retains private practitioners in St. John's. It was generally the well-known Tory firm of P. Derrick Lewis and Day. He retains that firm to do the presecuting. On the West Coast I do not know who it is. But, in any event, Mr. Speaker, we have no knowledge of it. We do not have the right to see a file on it. The first time that we officially become involved as a Province is if a person is convicted and sentenced to less than two years. Re or she has to be housed in our institution and we have to feed them. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Tourism, Sir, could tell the Hot18e if he authorized recently a publication of a newspaper or a tabloid known as the Tourist News? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Tourism. JlON. T. RICKEY (MINISTER OF TOURISM): I will have to take that under advisement. We have a number of pamphlets and pieces of literature and what not. I could not honestlJ answer the question. I would have to check. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I accept the fact the minister does not have the information.

But, would the minister also find out for me who is having it printed, if it is being supported by advertising, if tenders were called and if the contract was awarded to the lowest bidder. Could the Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir, tell the House whether or not the meeting that ls being planned with the residents of Bell Island to try and figure out the disbursement of the special fund that waa accumulated under the Liberal Administration has yet been held and if so, what will the money be usef for? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of ~ines and Energy. 5360

April 28, 1975 Tape 1838 (morning) IB-1 HON. L. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND F:NERGY) : Mr. Speaker, there have heen certain steps taken over the last few days to clarify various matters of red tape dealing with the amendment to various Orders in Council that had been previously passed that place some restrictions on what could be done with these funds, restrictions imposed,I might add,by the previous Liberal Administration.

But, these restrictions have now been clarified and the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing,I understanc, will be making arrangements very shortly to meet with representatives of the Wabana Town Council to decide on the disposition of these funds. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Sir, could tell the House if he is yet in a position to tell the House whether or not arrangements have been made to finance the Town of Wabana to help them to maintain essential services and replace old worn out water lines. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. B. PECKFORD (1-IINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Mr. Speak~r, we are continuing as we have in the last two or three years to finance the Wabana Town Council. Needless to say, it has been on a sort of an ad hoc basis. This whole new arrangement 1 in light of the report done by H .R. Doane Company Limited and other reports that were done by the department, is well in hand. But, I am not in a position, I might be in the next week er two. It is difficult to assess an overall plan for financial assistance to the Town of Wabana.

But it has not been definitively decided yet. But it is well in hand. At such time as I am ready to make such an announcement, I will surely inform the honourable Member for Bell Island. 1-!R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a question to the honourable the Premier, Sir. In view of the record unemployment in the Provinee, is the Premier yet in a position to tell the House and tell the people of Newfoundland whether or not the expansion of the oil refinery at Come By Chance is going to go ahead this year? If so, what date do we expect to see construction get under way down there? MF .

SPF..AKER: The honourable the Premier. 5361

April 28, 1975 Tape 1838 (morning) IB-2 MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Industrial Development has answered that question and obviously we are as anxious for the expansion to go ahead as anybody else. But until such time as the arrangements have been worked out with the British banks and others we cannot make any announcement, not a thing. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Motion No. 3. On motion of the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act To Impose A Tax Upon Income Received By Certain Persons Holding The Right To Mine," read a first time, ordered read a second ti.me on tomorrow.

On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act Respecting A Plan Of Legal Aid For The Province;" read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, a bill, "An Act To Control The Relationship Between Employers And Employees Within The Province And To Provide Uniform Minimwn Standards Of Conditions Of Employment, 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the honourable Minister of Manpower And Industrial Relations, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Workmen's Compensation Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 5362

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1839 NM - 1 On motion of the honourable Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, ''An Act To Impose A Tax Upon The Land In Respect Of Which Persons Have The Right To Mine," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act Relating To The Disposition Of Minerals Within The Province," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Amend Certain Statutes Of The Province," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy, "An Act To Amend The Mining Tax Act And To Repeal The Mineral Lands Taxation Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, "An Act To Amend The Forest Firest Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Natural Products Marketing Act, 1973," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Transfer Of Certain Lands From Reid Newfoundland Limited And Mines And Forests (Newfoundland) Limited To Her Majesty In Right Cf. Newfoundland," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the honourable Minister of Health, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Hospitals Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Health, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Provision Of Funeral Services," read a first time, nrdered read a second time on tomorrow. 5363

April 28, 1975 Tape no. 1840 Page 1 - mw MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a message from His Honour, the Lieutenant Governor. MR.. SPEAKER: April 25, 1975 to the Hon, Minister of Finance. I, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Newfoundland, tranSlllit estimates of sums required for the public services of the Province for the year ending 31st day of March, 1976 by way of further supply and in accordance with the provisions of the British North America Act of 1867, as 11111ended, I recODDend these estimates te the House of Assembly. SigQed by His Honour, lhe Lieutenant-Governor.

On motion that the House resolve itself into Collllllittee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): Order! Bill No. 39. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move that the conmittee rise and report that the message from the Lieutenant-Governor has been received together with the amended estimates and that the same be referred to a Collllllittee of Ways and Means. MR.. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, that is a debatable motion. I think. I mean the ilinister • he says,'' I move': and that is fair enough. That apparently is his entire speech.

I do not intend to be very much longer, But let it be noted that this was the minister's speech in moving the Supp~y No. 2 Bill, the bill now before the comnittee. Is that a correct understanding of where we are at? I admit quite candidly, Your Honour, that the intricacies of the finance procedure followed in this House as they are amended from tm time and day to day and hour to hour never cease to astound me. But am I of a correct understadding now that we are debating the resolution which accompanies Bill No. 39, the Supply Act No, 2? · MR.. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, there is no question that it is debatable.

The practice has always ieen in this House that the debate takes place - MR. ROBERTS: In the committee. MR. HICKMAN: - in the budget debate, 5364

April 28, 1975 Tape no, 1840 Page 2 - mw MR. ROBERTS: No. MR. HICKMAN: But it has been the practice, But in any event if it is to be debated at all, it is my understanding that the debate takes place when the resolution is read in the Means. MR. ROBERTS: Well - MR. HICKMAN: We are now in Supply. The Committee of Supply reports back to the Committee of Ways and Means. The resolution is read in the Committee of Ways and Means. When the resolution is read in the ColllDlittee of Ways and Means, if anybody wants to debate it, it is debated then. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Your Honour, I mean I asked the question.

I do not pretend to know the answer, If I did, I would not ask the ...;\ question. I am asking it for a rhetorical effect. Ky understanding has always been that the Ways and Means Committee is a very seldom used committee, I see a clerk circling around towards me with a piece of paper, presumably with the procedure in it. It is the Committee of Supply that we have the debate in, Now our procedure, I think, now is firmly established that we do not debate both the resolution and the bill. We will debate the resolution normally and then the bill goes through without any further discussion.

And we are now in Committee of Supply 5365

April 28, 1975 Tape no. 1841 Page 1 - mw which is where all the Supply Bills are considered and which is where they are debated. I mean if that is not a correct understanding, and I ask, Your Honour, for - it is no good referring to Beauchesne or May, I mean they are irrelevant to Ottawa, the way Ottawa has changed their procedure,and it is equally irrelevant here. Ways and Means normally debates only taxation bills, and I would say to the Minister of Justice that normally that is where we debate changes in taxation in the Committee on Ways and Means.

We debate those resolutions and then they can be debated again when the enabling legislation comes before the House, We are not discussing now, Sir, raising money, which is the Ways and Means side of the procedure. We are discussing the expenditure of money, the Supply side, and accordingly we are in CoDDDittee of Supply. I would like to debate it here if it is in order. But, you know, I am asking Your Honour what the procedure is. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): · The Chair requests a five minute adjournment for advice and consideration. Order!

Our own precedents indicate that the House go into a Committee of Supply, report to the Chair and the House resolve into Committee of Ways and Means and then debate the resolution. MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, I thuk you but just so I am clear, in other words there is to be no debate on this motion in C011m.ittee of Supply. Is that what Your Honour is ruling? Your Honour is making that motion. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): That is correct. MR. ROBERTS: Okay, So that is fine, fine by me. MR. HICKMAN: Mr, Chairman, to get back to that .otion that I had to make, .

I do not know if I used the eorrect wording, is that the House having passed estimates, amended estimates of $709,754,200 that the Supply Committee report the same to the Ways and Means Conmittee. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): Shall the motion carry? Carried. On motion that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. 5366

April 28, 1975 Tape no. 1841 Page 2 -mw MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply have considered the matters to them referred and have passed certain estimates of Supply totalling $709,754,200 in addition to the initial swn of $92,030,000 previously authorized and ask leave to sit again. MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of Co111111ittee of Supply reports that they have considered thP matters to them referred and report having passed amended estimates of Supply totalling $709,754,200 in addition to the initial swn of $92,030,000 as previously authorized and ask leave to sit again.

On motion report received and adopted. On motion conmittee ordered to sit again presently. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy) : Order: A bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of March One Thousand Nine Hundred And Seventy-Six And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service'.' MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): Shall the clause carry? MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, I do not intend to be very long at all due to the fact that I scheduled a meeting with the press for two minutes fr0111 now. I do want to make one point though in debating the Supply Bill. The amounts of money have been debated insofar as they could be within the procedures forced through by the change in rules a year or so ago, and there is no point going over that. What I do wish to say though is just a note, Mr.

Chairman, that never in my - I guess this is the tenth session now in which I have sat in this House of Assembly- never have I seen a performance such as that put , on by the ministry this year. I did some_checkinit on the weekend insofar as Hansards were available. Almost without exception every question asked by a member on this side of a minister during the entire debate on the estimates, the money now before us, almost without exception every question was not answered or not answered in full or not answered accurately and alllllost 5367

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1842 NM - 1 without exception every point in debate made by a member on this side of the House in the debate was not answered or evaded by way of answer by the ministers opposite. I can come to only one of two possible conclusions, Sir, Either the ministers have seen in their performance,and the estimates performance, Mr.

Chairman, as Your Honour appreciates is a bit of a trial for a minister, a bit of an example for him to show his stuff 1 and if he has got his stuff, if he knows his facts, if he knows his facts, if he knows the programmes of his department, if he understands the problems with which he is supposed to try to deal, he can shine, If he does not then, Sir, he makes an utter fool of himself and we have seen example after example of that, even though the government deliberately held back some of the estimates, knowing full well that., for example, the gentleman for Trinity South was allowed to get on his feet and speak in estimates he would make an utter fool of himself,and he has on a number of occasions, the senior mPmber for Harbour Main the same way.

A number of ministers, the government decided, could not be allowed to defend their estimates publicly for good and sufficient reason. But, Sir, the way in which the estimates procedure was carried out I think can support only one of two conclusions and it -nay be either.

I do not know which, some of my colleagues might have an opinion on it. •Either the minister just do not know what it is they are supposed to be administering, what they are talking about, what they are trying to do ,with the departments which they are running en an interim basis, either that, Sir, or they are contemptuous of the House and afraid of the truth.

It is one or the other and the estimates procedure this year has shown that as completely and clearly as anything could, and Sir, the present Cabinet have no intention of giving this House any information, and furthermore are unable to defend the • ast sums of public money which they wish to spend. As I say, Sir, in my ten years in the House, and that is not a long time in legislative history but it is a long time by comparison, Sir, to the present membership of this House, there are only four men who have been here longer, two of them on my side and two on the side opposite. MR.

NEARY: One on the side opposite. 5368

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1842 NM - 2 MR . ROBERTS: No, the gentleman from Fortune Bay and the gentleman from St. John's Centre, they have both been here longer than I have. The gentleman from Fortune Bay had an interruption in his political career which will be coming to an inglorious end shortly in any event. Mr.

Chairman, never have I seen a performance as inept by the ministers,or as contemptuous,and I tend to prefer the latter feeling although I do not like it, because I think some of the honourable gentlemen opposite are capable, not all of them by any means, Sir, but some of them are capable of defending their estimates. I think if the gentleman from Green Bay had been given the freedom to debate the points in his departmental policies and his programmes I think he would have been able to make a good fist of it instead of the cod which he did make of it.

Several other honourable gentlemen opposite in my view are quite capable of having put up a good defense in their estimates. Some of them, Sir, are not, but that is another story.

What I am saying is that none of them did, none of the questions were answered, none of the points were debated and I checked back through the Hansards very carefully, I had a lon g time to do it, driving up to Ray D'Espoir and back to speak to a great Liberal banquet up there of 300 or 400 people, many of them who were formerly supporters of another political persuasion, but now have seen the light, have come back to the true faith, but Sir, it has been a very inept performance and it is the people of Newfoundland who will be the losers, and not the House of Assembly. TheHouse will go on, Sir ,- MR.

EVANS: Inaudible. MR . ROBERTS: I am sorry, speaking of inept performances, it is the gentleman from Burgeo. MR. EVANS: I think you are - MR. ROBERTS: I am grateful, Sir, that the gentleman from Burgeo feels that way and I am, Sir, I think I will probably go and resign now if he thinks I am inept, I so value his opinion. Sir, if tne ~entleman from Burgeo were to tell me that today is Monday I would want a second opinion, a competent opinion. The gentleman from Burgeo, Sir, speaks for himself 5369

April 28, 1975 because nobody else - MR. EVANS: Inaudible. Tape No. 1842 NM MR. ROBERTS: Because nobody else will take the responsibility - MR. EVANS; Inaudible, MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! 3 MR. ROBERTS: Because nobody else will take the responsibility for speaking for the gentleman from Burgeo. But, Sir, I do not intend to debate this motion at any length. It is just the tidying up of the supply procedure, the final step in the procedure, but I think it should be noted that the government came into this House with a concerted plan, either to ignore the House or to try somehow to prevent any debate.

I think they have shown their contempt for the House of Assembly and for the whole process. I think a reading of the Hansard of the seventy-five hours of the supply debate, the eatimates debate, will bear that out. It is a very sad performance, a very shockin~ performance, very disillusioning for those people in Newfoundland and the~e were a few who still believe that this administration somehow intended to be men who lived up to their collll1litments and their promises, men who intend~d to try to do something for the peorle of Newfoundland, something good.

Of course, Sir, if there was any doubt left in the people of Newfoundland, the announcement earlier by the Premier that the gentleman, a defeated Tory candidate, a man with no competence whatsoever for the job of Ombudsman is to be appointed to that job, is the most cynical political payoff - AN HON. MEMBER: Point of order, point of order, Mr. Chairman - MR. ROBERTS: No, Sir, they can raise their points of order if they wish, there is a very old principle Your Honour that there is no supply before redress of grievances. MR. PECK.FORD: Point of order, Mr. Chairman, MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR.

PECK.FORD: As I take it the honourable Leader of the Opposition is completely irrelevant to the bill now before the House and I ask Your Honour to rule. 5370

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1842 NM - 4 MR, NEARY: You have got to be kidding. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Sir, I find it hard to believe that even the gentleman from Green Bay,who attempts to be a student of parliamentary procedure and certainly is coming on in that field, does not realize that the very basic principle 1and Your Honour I could find references in Beauchesne or in May or anywhere else, is that there is no supply without redress of grievance and a redress of grievance is certainly the proposal to appoint the gentleman who was named by the Premier earlier today on that motion.

There is no point of order, Your Honour, I submit this is completely in order, nor is it an anticipation of debate because I do not intend to debate the matter at any length. I was merely using it as an illustrative example of the complete failure of this administration to honour their commitments, not to have dirty, filthy, patronage and the appointment of Mr. Peddle represents dirty, filthy patronage of the worst sort. Now if Your Honour wishes to rule on the point of order of course that is something that Your Honour has to do. MR.

CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Qn that point of order since we are on this particular bill, payment regardless of the Ombudsman or other derived from that source so as a result will have to consider the honourable Member for St. Barbe North in order. MR . ROBERTS: Your Honour,it is White Bay at least until the redistribution. It may or may not include St. Barbe North after the next election. That we will see. But I have largely said what I wanted to say Your Honour. I look forward to the Minister of Justice participating in a debate on the Ombudsman Bill.

There is both a bill and a resolution so we will have ample opportunity to debate the matter at some length and I am very much looking forward to it because I think there is a very important principle. The whole integrity of the Ombudsman concept has been destroyed by this announcement by the administration. But, Sir, to come back to the point I was making before, the government have completely failed to live up to their responsibilities under the s upply process. They have either deliberately or by omfR,dnn pn,.hPd through 5371

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1842 NM - 5 the estimates without providing any information or without putting their policies to the test, The conclusion must be either that they are so arrogant that they are contemptuous of the House or alternately that they are so completely ill-founded in knowledge that they are unable to defend their policies. But either way, Sir, it has been a lamentable performance. The people of Newfoundland will be the losers. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I realize that we are not going to get into a debate but I simply want to draw to the attention of the committee two things, number one, seventy-five hours were allocated for the debating of these estiT"ates. That is a long time. That is a much longer time than is used in most legislatures with budgets far greater than this, than the budget that is before this House.

I recall when the honourable Donald Jamieson was here a couple of years ago and he was then Minister of Transport, lamenting the fact that it took his estimates, from the Department of Transport and the budget of that department was equal that year to the total budget of this Province, it took them a whole day to debate his estimates in Committee, But the way the Co111111ittee works, you know,this is where the information comes out to the public. It is a question and answer.

Now in this particular case and before I go on to that may I draw the Committee's attention to the fact that the day after this House opened, the Legislature of Nova Scotia opened. Their budget is about the same as ours, maybe a little more, but not substantially more. With only two night sessions, and just sitting in the afternoons, they got their budget debate through, a fair amount of legislation, their Address in Reply and they followed their time honoured tradition of adjourning the day before Good Friday. Now are we suggesting that other legislatures - AN HON. MEMBER: Six weeks is a record though is it not?

MR. HICKMAN: Yes, other legislatures are not competent and they are not disclosing and giving the kind of information? Jlo, Mr. Chairman, it was a very simple formula in arithmetic, We have twenty departments, so 5372

April 28, 1975 Tape l!l43 (morning) IB-1 the Opposition decides how much of the seventy-five hours they want to spend. Nobody can accuse anyone on this side of the House of delaying it. There is no honourable gentleman on this side of the House spoke ad nauseam on a minister's salary. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Everyone. _MR .

HICKMAN: This was where the - if the honourable gentlemen on the opposite side of the House choose to debate the minister's salary instead of getting down - my recollection is that the honourable the Member for Twillingate drew this to the attention of the Committee - of getting down to getting information, facts.

May I also remind honourable gentlemen who havr been in this House for a number of years, when the honourable Leader of the Opposition says that he is appalled at the amount of information that was given, I think I can recall the year that I was Minister of Health, the health estimates went through this House - it was a record - in twenty-seven minutes. That was the second largest spending department of that year. MR. THOMS: That was after the Opposition walked out. MR. HICKMAN: No, no. The Opposition were in their places.

I have seen the whole, and so have the two honourable gentlemen opposite, the estimates go through this House in less than a week. Oh, far less than a week, the whole thing. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: I am not suggesting that is good at all. But, what I am suggesting is that seventy-five hours judiciously used, properly researched can bring before the people of this Province every iota of information, facts, f-a-c-t-s.

Not to get up and talk for an hour and a half about what a stupid fellow the minister is, you know, or wander, rave on about districts when that can be talked about in the Address in Reply debate and/or in the budget debate. This is what happened. But, you know, that is not our fault. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, while it is true, Your Honour, that estimates have gone through this honourable House in a week or less, Sir, while that is true, I do not think that is a very great compliment to pay to the Opposition of that day, Sir.

The Opposition at that par~icular time, the one the minister is referring to, just gave up 5373

April 28, 1975 Tape 1843 (morning) IB-2 and seemed to be anxious to get out of the House and wanted the estimates to go through as fast as they could so they could get out for some reason or other. But, Sir, it is certainly no compliment for the Opposition of that day. If I were the minister I would not use that as an example, as a criteria for forcing the estimates through this House as fast as possible. Under the new rules of this House, Your Honour - now we were told by the honourable the Premier both inside and outside of this honourable House that the estimates would be considered in the main by committees.

These committees, Sir, up to this moment have not yet been appointed. We were told, Mr. Chairman, that fourteen days, we were told in December, fourteen days after the House resumed sitting a Public Accounts Committee would be set up. That was a firm commitment, Sir, made by the government, made by the House Leader on the government side, made by the honourable the Premier, fourteen days after the House resumed its new sitting a Public Accounts Committee would be established. I was to be, Mr.

Chairman - maybe that is the reason they have not established it because the Leader of the Opposition indicated that both myself and the Member for Hermitage would be the two Opposition members on the committee. I beg your pardon? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Is that so? HR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is so. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, let me go back to what I said again so the minister will not misunderstand me as he usually does and just think of what I am saying.

Back in December we were told, the administration made a commitment that a select committee of the House would be appointed within fourteen days after the House resumed its new sitting. Then the government came in - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: A select committee? MR. NEARY: A Select Committee on Public Accounts, a standing committee, rather - a Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Then the administration came in, Sir, and decided to set up a committee to select the committees. That committee has not yet met to my knowledge. But, there was nothing, 5374

April 28, 1975 Tape 1843 (morning) Mr. Chairman, there was nothing in the Standing Rules of the House to stop the government, that administration, from setting up that IB-3 Standing Committee on Public Accounts. This was just a red herring, a delaying tactic, Sir, that is all it was. AN HONOURABLE ME'MBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I know what the minister is going to get up and say, it is the Leader of the Opposition's fault because we have not been able to get together. Sir, the Leader of the Opposition - I have not discussed this with him - as far as I am concerned, could not care less.

The committee should be set up according to him because the administration promised that it would be set up. Setting up another committee - _AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition back in December and right up to this very moment, this present day, has told the House and told the Premier and told the Minister of Justice that my colleague, the Member for Hermitage and myself would be the two Opposition members on that committee. Yes, Sir. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. MR. NEARY: Well, check the public statements. Check the Hansard.

Check the - tell the Leader of the Opposition to come in here for a minute. That is so, Sir. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is not. MR. NEARY: That my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition has made a statement inside and outside of this House,that my colleague, the Member for Hermitage and myself - and that message has been relayed to the Government House Leader. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Tell the Leader that Chop, Chop is here. _MR. NEARY: Yet, Sir, they have refused to appoint that committee. Why? MR. WILSON: You were on one before and made a fool of yourself. MR. NEARY: I was on what before?

I was a member, Sir, of one Select Committee of this House that met twice and then we had to - my colleague was the chairman, the Member for Labrador North was the chairman - we had 5375

April 28, 1975 Tape 1843 (morning) to abandon the meetings because the government members refused to attend. MR. REID: That made you happy. MR. HICKMAN: Ah now, go on. You know better than that,"Steve". MR. NEARY: No, Sir. I am making a statement of fact. If the minister wants to check it out, he is free to do so. The only one who attended two meetings,! think,was the present Minister of IB-4 Finance. I think he was the only one. and only attended one meeting. My honourable friend was on AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Every meeting. Every meeting. MR. NEARY: No, Sir. Mr.

Chairman, I concur with the statements made by my colleague this morning,Sir, that the government were afraid to call the controversial departme-nts first. They called, Sir, the harmless departments first. They called Social Services, and they called Health. But, Mr. Chairman, in the process of doing these harmless departments, the seventy-five hours were used up. Anywere from fifteen to twenty of these hours, Sir, were used by government ministers. Mr. Chairman, I claim, Sir, I claim that under the standing rules of this House that ministers' time should not be deducted from the seventy-five hours.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Who is going to answer the questions? MR. NEARY: Pardon? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Who is going to answer the questions? MR. NEARY: Therein lies the problem, Sir. You ask a minister a question and he filibusters. He takes forty-five minutes to answer your question. Sir, I have put questions to the ministers, I did during the estimates put very, very good questions to some of the ministers, and it took them twenty, twenty-five minutes, forty-five minutes. Then they would sit down and get up again, another forty - Wick said that the ministers took too long to answer their questions.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, ministers' time I think the Committee, Sir, next year should agree that ministers' answers to questions should not be deducted from the seventy-five hours. That, Sir, will not only get support on this side of the House but will be supported, I believe, by 5376

April 2R, 1975 Tape 18~3 (morning) IB-5 a nurnher of memhers on t he government benches. Now, Sir, what were the departments that were called last, left until t he last in hopes that we would run out of time? What were the departments? Well, Si r, number one was Rural nevelopment, deliberately - Mr . Chairman, do you kno1o• that it was virtually impossible for us to find out from day to <lay what departments of expenditure were going to be debated the next day, that government had no agenda, that we did not kno',I· what was going to be debated the next day .

There was a deliberate attemp t, Sir, on the part of the administration . And God it must be so obvious to people who sit in the galleries, a deliberate attempt, ~1 r, to force . the flouse to run out of time before we got to Rural nevelopment,fo r instance,where we could find out, where we could ask the minister for instance if it is true that an honourable gentleman who was defeated in the last election on Rell Island has gotten a second loan from the minister's depa rtment to buy a tractor. Re already had one from the vocational school, brought it back.

Was he given a loan by the minister's department, a second, to go .and buy a tractor on the 'tainland? These are the kinds of questions we would have liked to put t o the Mini ster of Rural nevelopment. l-lll. RF.In: MP.. NEARY: time. That 5377 You can always ask them. We cannot ask them n"ow, Sir, because we have run out of

April 28, 1975. Tape 1844 RH - 1 department, Sir, that deparonent was deliberately left off the list until last in hopes that we would run out of time because the Premier and the House Leader and the government knew that that mini.ster could not stand up to being scrutinized by the Committee. He would have caved in, Sir. He would have foundered, caved in under the strain. MR. REID: It is still not too late. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, by leave, I am satisfied to debate the minister's estimates by leave but we cannot do that, Sir.

Look, the Minister of Justice, the acting, acting House Leader, the acting, acting Premier now is getting kind of hot under the collar with his colleague and then, Sir, Public Works and Services deliberately left until last. Forestry and Agriculture, everybody in this honourable House knows that the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture could not stand up to being cross-examined, being questioned. AN' HONOURABLE MEMBER: Whv did not you do it? MR. NEARY: Because it was not called, that is why we did not do it. MR. BARRY: All you had to do was finish the other - MR. NEARY: Sir, we could not finish them.

That was the problem. Provincial Affairs - Wick Collins is right, Sir, that minister could not stand up to scrutiny. . MR. REID: If you did not screw around as much as you are now you could have probably got through every department. MR. NEARY: AI\d the Minister of Tourism would have went right of his mind, would have went berserk if we started questioning h:lm about s0111e of the goings on in the Department of Tourism, especially as it relates to George McLean.

This morning, Sir, for instance, I raised a matter in connection with the minister's department concerning a little publication called Travel News that has been ~ublished by George McLean now for going on three years. I understand that it is running into a bit of financial difficulty, that the printers will not release the latest edition which is printed every quarter because Mr. McLean has failed to turn up with the cash to pay for that publication in 5378

April 28, 1975. Tape 1844 RH - 2 advance. What is the minister's reaction to that? The minister goes out looking for information, comes back into the House, tells me when Your Honour was out for a recess and he cannot find out anything about it. He definitely does not know anything about it. Neither does any­ body in his department, do not know who authorized it, do not know if it is in trouble, do not know if it should be out now in circulation, or what is happening. These are the kind of questions. The Norma and Glad-Y.§1 is another thing, Sir, we would have liked, gotten some answers from the minister on.

Then, Mr. Chairman, the biggest department of all, the biggest spender was Transportation and Communications. That was deliberately left well down the line, Sir, hoping that we would run out of time. So, Mr.

Chairman, this was a deliberate plot on the part of the administration to leave the weak ministers, not to give us a chance to get at the weak ministers, the ones that the administration know, Sir, had gotten them in trouble before with their foolish public statements and the pronouncements and gotten them in trouble before, Sir, with bein8 unable to defend the spending, the extravagance and the waste in some of their departments. So, Mr.

Chairman, the House Leader very skillfully planned the calling of the estimates and then, Sir, when the House Leader did see that we were letting some of the departments go through rather quickly, the motherhood ones, the harmless ones, then what happened, 1'!r. Chairman?

The ministers started getting up and making long winded speeches, filibustering, so that we would not r:et down to the likes of Rural Development and Public Horks and Services and Forestry and Agriculture and Provincial Affairs and Environment and Transportation and Communications. . ~N HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible • NR. :,JEARY: No, we did not. ~lo, no, indeed we did not. -- - - -- AN HO'lOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Forestry. We did it,did we. But anyway, Sir, this was the plan. He could not get an agenda. So, Sir, I have a couple of 5379

April 28, 1975. Tape 1844 RH - 3 positive, constructive suggestions to make to the Premier and the administration. First of all, appoint your committees, appoint your Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Why not do it? We are entitled to two members. The administration knows who they are going to be, The Leader of the Opposition has told the House, told the people of Newfoundland, told the House Leader. My colleague and I are going to be the members on that - PREMIER MOORES : Two members from the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Two members from the Opposition, Here we are. PREMIER MOORES: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: Yes, what about him? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. SIMMONS: The only man who has had any experience on this and that is because one of the Premier's spokesmen asked the Opposition, the official Opposition to appoint two, that is why. MR. NEARY: The House Leader, Sir, - MR. SIMMONS: Asked many months ago. MR. NEARY: Sir, the Premier knows who the two members are going to be. They are afraid of that Committee. They are afraid. They are afraid, Sir, that we might get beneath the surface of government revenue and expenditure.

We might, for instance, Sir, be able to get the logs of the government aircraft and see who has gone aloft in the last two or three years. We might be able to get the answers to questions that we have been asking in this honourable House. That is what they are afraid of, Sir. MR. BARRY: We gave you the log - MR. NEARY: No, they did not give us the log last year, Sir. There has never been a log tabled in this honourable House of the number of people, who they were, where they went and went aloft in government aircraft.

It was a deliberate plot, Sir, to protect, to protect the weak-kneed ministers, to protect the incompetent ministers who handle these controversial departments. 5380

April 28, 1975. Tape 1844 RH - 4 PRENIER MOORF.S : You are rubbing you colleague. MR. NF.ARV: On whose colleague? PREMIER MOORES : The Chairman of the Public Accounts Co1DD1ittee last year. MR. NEARY: The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee last year could not get a ~uorum to hold a meeting. The government members bycotted it, Sir, and when my colleague, when my colleague wanted to employ the services of Baird and Baird which are very competent chartered accountants, very competent chartered accounting firm here in St.

John's, when that was done, when we did manage to squeeze a few dollars out of Treasury Board, my colleague was all set to roll, Sir, we could not get enough members to constitute a quorum. I was there. ~y colleague was there and I believe the Minister of Finance might have attended two meetings. Sir, set it up now. The Leader of the Opposition has told the llouse who the two Clpp~sition members are going to be and who the Chairman of the Committee is going to be, Set it up and let us worl~ during the sunnner. I am 'lui te prepared, Sir. I will be Chairman of that Coilll!littee.

There will be no trouble with my attendance I will guarantee you that. We will send for civil servants and we will send for information and we will send for documents and - AN HONOURABLE MEn!ER: You going to be -- --·-·-··-- ~'R. NEARY: Chairman of the Committee. AN HO~OURABLE MEMBER: InaudiblP. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. That is why the honourable the Premier will not - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. :-!R. NEARY: Yes. AN HONOURABLF. MIDIBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, does the honourable Premier follow what is going on?

Hy colleague, Sir, the Leader of the Opposition - AN HONOURABLE MEJ,ffiER: It has always been customary. It has always heen customary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, it is customary for the Chairman to be an Opposition member, customary, traditional. 5381

April 28, 1975. Tape 1844 RH - 5 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Where? MR. NEARY: In this honourable House. My colleague and I are the two Opposition members. The Leader of the Opposition indicated I would be the Chairman and that is why, Sir, the Committee has not been set up. They are in deadly fear, deadly fear, Sir, the sting, They are in deadly fear, Sir, that there might be a few exposures. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: (First

part inaudible) - in 1975. MR. NEARY: Is that so? Try us out. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Try us out, Sir. That is why we have not got the Committee because - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No wonder, Mr. Chairman, you are seeing resignations right, left and centre in the Cabinet. The roof is caving in. She is falling apart. But, Sir, it was a deliberate plot on the part of the administration to protect, to protect these weak ministers and not let us get down to departments where we could ask some very interesting questions and get some facts out to the people of Newfoundland.

The Minister of Justice can get up now in his sanctimonious manner as he always does all he likes, Sir, but that is the truth of it. They were afraid. If not, Mr. Chairman, why did they not call Rural Development first? Why did they not call Transportation and Communications, the big spender, the one everybody is interested in? Could the Premier tell us why? Why was not Rural Development called first? We wanted it call.ed first. He indicated to the government House Leader - PREMIER MOORES: want called? Any of the ones that were called, you did not MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, we indicated to the government House Leader, Sir, the order in which we would like to see the departments called. Does the Premier know that? 5382

April 28, 1975 . Tape 11144 ~::_ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible . ~m.. NEARY: And the government House Leader did not follow our recomr.1endation, refused to give us an a~enda, would not tell us what was goin g to be called from day to day, played a cat and r.iouse tame with us and played a cat and ·mouse game with the people of Newfoundland . That is why, Sir , we did not make better use of the time of the seventy-five hours . first of all, it was used, most of it or a good bit of it was used up by government ministers . 5383 RH - 6

April 28, 1975 Tape no. 1845 Page 1 - mw And in the second place, Sir, we did not, it was not us who set that seventy-five hour time limit. It was the administration, and it was a wrong move. Mr. Chairman, one of the biggest spending departments is Social Services and the Premier will agree with that, one of the biggest spenders, Social Services. It was called, and do you know what happened, Mr. Chairman, when it was called, the minister came in with a nine and one-half page statement written by a civil servant and stood in this House and read it out.

Now go and check Hassard and get the tapes and see how long it took me, the member on this side who is shadowing Social Services, how long it took me to dispose of that departlllent. Who took the moat time? MR. MOORES: MR. NEARY: Why did you speak for forty-five minutes on Education? S:J.r, the Minister of Education was filbustering and so were all the other ministers filibustering on it. It took us thirteen hours, I think it was, fifteen hours to get through the Education eatimatea. I do not know whether it was fifteen hours well spent or not. I would say it probably was. But, Sir, we could not get any answers.

And the minister every time he stood up spoke for a half an hour, thirty-five minutes, forty-five minutes, other ministers felt that they had to come to his defence. Anywhere from fifteen to twenty hours was used up by ministers trying to defend one another, trying to cOlle to one anothe~s defence and that is wrong, Sir. I do not think that time should be deducted from the seventy-five hours. And I hope next year that the committee will agree in advance so that we can get down to get a dart at ministers like the Minister of Rural Development.

That would have been a very unteresting department if we had been able to get at it. It would have been revealing. We would have found out - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). You will not be here next vear. Is that so? SOME RON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: - would have found out about favouritism, patronage, extravagance, waste. MR. EVANS: MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible). You are embarrassing your own member over there. Embarrassing who? The Hon. Member for Labrador North. 5384

April 28, 1975 Tape no. 1845 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: The member for Labrador North would like to get a dart at that department, too, I am afraid. So, Mr. Chairman, it was not our fault. Maybe we could better plan the time that we had at our disposal. We only had fifty or fifty-five hours at the most. Maybe we could. But I would submit, Sir, that no matter what we did, there was no way we could win. AN HON. MEMBER: You are admitting that you did not - MR. NEARY: No, Sir, maybe a few hours, maybe a few hours here and there, but, Mr.

Chairman, the point I am trying to make to the committee is that there was no way we could win because if we let the departments go through as we did with Social Services and one or two others, word would go out then to the cabinet to filibuster, to use up the time. Do not let them get down to old conflict of interest's department. Do not let them find out about these big yellow bulldozers and graders and back ditchers. AN HON. ME!'BER: MR. NEARY: MR. REID: - suicide - but until it happens, you know - The word, Sir - Keep on talking.You are the best advertiser, the freest advertising I got - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. REID: MR. NEARY: MR. REID: MR. NEARY: I will tell you that right now. Well, I wish the minister would go out - (Inaudible). I wish the minister would go out and settle up his differences with a certain gentleman in Whitbourne for knocking down his basement. I have been working on that now for the last couple of weeks and I cannot get the minister to move. Even though the minister is covered by insurance and the poor fellow is over there with no basement - MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): Order, please! MR. NEARY: AN HON.

MEMBER: 5385 - the basement knocked down by the minister's bulldozer. (Inaudible).

April 28, 1975 Tape no, 1845 Page 3 - mw MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): Order, please! Order, please! The Hon. Member for Bell Island certainly is not being relevant to the resolution so I would ask him to become relevant. MR, NEARY: I am afraid, Mr. Chairman, that I did yield to the temptation that time, Sir, I did answer some of the members , But, Sir, these are the real reasons - MR. REID: (Inaudible), MR. NEARY: - these are the real reasons, Sir~ .that we could not get down to brass tacks and get more information during the estimates.

Andi hope that after our few remarks this morning, Sir, that that will sink in, that the people who are following this House that they will report to the people of Newfoundland that one of the main reasons that we could not get our teeth into these controversial departments was because they were deliberately kept to the last, the ministers filibustered, and they would not give us a chance to ask questions and give us quick answers, rapid fire, machine gun like action. We could not do that, Sir. Because every time we tried that, if we tried it - we used to meet, Sir, in caucus and revise our strategy.

Every day we would say, well, what would be our strategy today? Weil, the Minister of Social Services represents a department that only concerns aotherhood so we will give him a couple of flicks and let it go through. Well, lo and behold, he comes in with a nine and one-half page statement, thirty-minutes to read out his statement and then in about twenty minutes of questions back and forth, a little bit of cross-examining we let it go through, 5386

1\r,rH 28, 1975 Tape 1846 (Morning) PK - 1 No r,raise for that, Sir. Jlut then when they saw our strategy - Ml HON. "El-,fflER: Inaudible. ------ --- '<R. !IF.ARY : For instance the !'finister of Mines and Energy, Sir, cannot stand in this House an<'! give a simple answer, yes or no to a question. JTe has to p;et un and speak for t,,7 enty minutes, twenty-five, thirtv, thirty-five, forty-five minutes every time. MR. BARRY: Life is not simple. ------ l!R. N~y_ _: F.ven his m-m members get bored with him. "ITT. llARRY: Life is not simple. ,,ffi. NF.ARY: Life is not simnle.

The minister is simple. -~ · llARRY: Are you saying that I do not give you information, and I do not p:ive you the answers? "IR • NF.A RY : ·----- No. Mr. Chairman,I will tell you what happens, the mintster stands un, Sir, - !TTL BARRY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: - wher:i we put a nuestion - MR. BARRY: Inaudible. J•m .. , ;,JFARY: - when we nut a ouestion, Sir, it was his legal training - ,"R. BARRY: Inauitible. •m.

NEARY: - with his legal training, Sir, the minister will ,be evasive, p;eneral, vague, never r,ive us a straight from the shoulder he is trained, the minister is trained that way, he never shoots straight from the hips, give us the yes or no answer, r;ive us the information we ,mnt, he has got to get up and hore his colleagues dav in and dav out. They sit over there yawning and moaning and rest]ess in their seats. ,'fl'l.. EMRY: Inaudihle. tm. '.lEARY_:_ And why does not the minister realize that? 'le, l't.

Chairman, these are the real reasons and not the scanct1monious attitude taken hy the Minister of Justice this morning, f;ir, that we can put estimates through in a week, and they do it ur, in Ottawa, hut thev have the Committee svstem in Ottawa. That is whv tl,ey r,ut them through in Ottawa in such a short time. We were rro1'11sed a C:ommittee system here. There is no evidence of it vet, and apparentlv the government are afraid to appoint the Committees an<'! set up that ::Standing Committee on the Public Accounts as we were 5387

April 28, 1975 Tape 1846 (Morning) PK - 2 promised back in December. And that is the real reason, Sir, we were unable to deal with the estimates the way that we would like to deal with them, '1-ffi.. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): The Hon. Minister of Justice. MR. MARSHALL: Has yielded I think. MR. HICKMAN: I will only be one minute. There are just two things; one, Mr. Chairman, may I draw to the attention of the Conunittee that a Committee was appointed by this House consisting of myself, as Chairman, the Hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, the Hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the Member for Bonavista South, and the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition to prepare and report within twenty days lists of members to compose Standing Committees, and one of these Standing Connnittees is the Public Accounts Committee. Now I think that all of us would be to blame, I have tried, desperately tried almost every day to try and get a meeting in this Committee, and I cannot find the five members of this Connnittee - and I was away for one week - in this City, in this Province, in this building at the one time. Now may I announce - MR.

NEARY: But that is your own fault. The Leader of the Opposition has been here. MR. HICKMAN: Not all of the time. I have talked to - the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition knows very well that I have asked him on several occasions - MR. NEARY: •••• who our two members are. '1-ffi.. HICKMAN: There has got to be a meeting for the Committee to decide, a Committee of five members. May I announce now that tomorrow there will be a meeting of that Connnittee some time tomorrow, either tomorrow afternoon or tomorrow night. So will the honourable members please take note.

And these include not only the Public Accounts Connnittee but the Government Services Committee, the Social Services Committee, the Committee on Privileges, the Resource Committee, the Stand±ng Orders Committee, etc. And once again may I, you know, I know the Hon. Leader of the Opposition he - MR. ROBERTS: Not so high now. MR. HICKMAN: Not the Leader. The Hon. the Leader, the Hon. the Member for Bell Island who stated and I welcome the news and on behalf 5388

April 28, 1975 Tape 1846 (Horning) PK - 3 of all neople of Newfoundland, and in particular the residents of Rell Island and llarhour Main, may I say how pleased I am to welcome the announcement that recently emanated from the pearl lips, the rulw lios of the Hon. the Member for Bell Island that he will be a candidate there in the next election. MR. 'I0(1RF. S : Hear! Hear! NR. HICKMAN: it shor,1s - AN HON. MEMBER: !>!R. HICKHAN: The record is clear. I thank him.

I congratulate him, Inaudible. - it shows that he is a man of integrity, and a man who is now preapred for a good oolitical fight, and we look forward to Reein~ the fight of the century in that district. AN HON. ME'lRF.R: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: May I simply - when the Hon. Member for Bell Island talks about the public, and the public assessment,may I refer the honourahle gentleman to the editorial which appeared in the issue of :!'he Evening Telegram o.i. April 24. AN HON. MEHBER : t1:R..:.. !~I CKHAN : Wick Collins. Not Wick Collins, the editorial. I do not know wl10 writes their editorial.

"We do not know what the Opposition has in mind, hut in its handling of the estimates in the llouse of Assembly it did allow valuable opportunities to slip by for questioning the government on its policies or what is more important its lack of them. Too much time was wasted on long speeches and r;eneralizations that went unreported - >TR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please! MR. HICKNAN: - because they were repetitious. HR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please! MR. NEARY: We are interested, read it all. >!R. l1IC!0'\AN: and merely a rehash of the suppose~wrongdoings and weaknesses of the Hoores Administration." ciR.

CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY) : Order, please! •.• say about the government. That minister is making a long winded speech. 5389

Atiril 28, 1975 Tape 1846 (Morning) PK - 4 MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): The Clerk is presently checking the citation, but I do believe that the reading of newspaper articles in the House to aide in debate is not permitted. MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I will not question your ruling. You are right, Mr. Chairman. 5390

April 28, 1975 Tape 1847 (morning) IB-1 MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Memher for St. John's East. MR. MARSHALL : Perhaps I should not say this, Mr. Chairman, because I have no desire to prolong this debate, but the honourable Member for Bell Islend has gotten up in defense of the Opposition in his remarks with respect to the way in which the estimates were handled in attempting to explain and justify and shield themselves from the criticism that is coming in from all quarters for their ineptitude in not being able to handle the estimates properly within the seventy-five hour limit.

I am not going to repeat the remarks I made in the budget speech to the effect that seventy-five hours is the longest time since Confederation,hut one year,and it is quite adequate time. It is more time than has been allowed before, and it is more time, as I say, since 194q,and it is more time than in Alberta, in Saskatchewan, more time than in Ontario, more time than even in the federal government.

There is one thing I would like to bring to the honourable member's attention because I cannot allow this to go through without pointing it out,because it shows the abysmal ineptitude, incompetence and what have you of the Opposition itself. When the Opposition turns around and says it never had a chance to discuss Rural Development or Tourism or Public Works because this was brought up, everybody would like to hear these items discussed. The fact of the matter remains, Mr.

Chairman - I think this should be pointed out - that interim supply was brought before the Committee of Supply, and at that particular time they had an ideal opportunity to have the various departments spin-off and they could have stopped the wheel at any given time for as long as they wanted to and discussed Rural Development, discussed Public Works and discussed all of the aepartments.

So, in effect, these departments came up and ,in effect 1hecause the honourable members of the Opposition who were over on the other side of the House following somebody and not enquiring into the rules, did not know the rules, did not know how to operate in this House as they ought to be, the people of this Province have been deprived of an examination of the estimates that the people of the Province were entitled to. So, I would like to bring up the point, Mr. Chairman, that the honourable Member for Bell Island who is very good when he is cornered, 5391

April 28, 1975 Tape 1847 (morning) and he is speaking on behalf of the cornered Opposition because the cornered Opposition does not like the criticism it is getting which is iustified, when he gets up and says there was filibustering and all the rest of it and these departments were not called, I would like to draw it to the attention of this Committee, that these departments. all of them actually. were called.

Il:l-2 If the Opposition had not been so inept, incompetent, leaderless, incapable of reallv forming an effective unit in this Assemblv, thP.y would have realized it and we would have had these departments debated. AN HON. MEMBER: Rear! Rear! MR.

NEARY: There was a gentleman's agreement with the (;overnment House ------ Leader, who unfortunately is not in his seat todav, he is in Japan, there was a gentleman's agreement, Sir, that the order in which the departments would be called would he not up to the Opnosi tion hut would sort of - we would consult on a day to day basis on the order in which the departments would be called. So, the Government House Leader welshecl on his agreement, Sir. Now, I know that we could have - AN HON. MEMBER: All departments were called as thev come. MR.

NEARY: There was a gentleman's agreement, Sir, that interim suPPlv -- - --- would go through the House without debate. Rut, Mr. Chairman, now that the government has not acted in good faith, has not lived up to their gentleman's agreement, then the next time interim supply comes in, Sir, - the ~ember is quite right, the member who got the flick out of the cabinet is quite right, that we had the opportunitv and we will have it again. I guarantee vou this, Sir, that here is one member here who will not grant leave next time around. AN HON. MEMBER: How about if your leader savs you should?

I do not care what anybody savs, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! --- ·- ·- - ---- MR. NEARY: ----- MR. MARSHALL: ------- I do not think my leader will grant leave either. You made a mistake in other words. 1':!R..:_N_f:4.RY: "lo, we did not make a mistake, Sir. We were acting in p:ood faith. We were given a gentleman's agreement bv the Government House Leader, the member who represents Japanese affairs at the moment, taking over 5392

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1848 NM - 1 MR. NF.ARY: from the Minister of Tourism. We were given a gentleman's agreement, Sir, that the departments would be called in, you know,after consultation, in the order in which - AN HON. MEMBER: They were all called - MR. NEARY: No, they were not called, Sir, we ran out of time. They were all called under interim supply. But never again, Sir. I have not been in this House for thirteen or fourteen years and be that stunned. AN HON. MEMBER: Well that is what happened. MR.

NEARY: But never again, Sir, as long as I am a member in this House and as lon~ as that honourable crowd is sitting where they are, will I agree to leave, to let the interim supply bill go through without debate, never a~ain, Sir. Because we will have our chance then next time interim - maybe we will have interim supply before another election is called and then I will be able to ~et at all these departments that were held back, left down at the bottom of the list, so we could not get at the ministers of these departments. On motion,

Schedule I, Consolidated Fund Services - $220,000, all items carried. On motion, Schedule""TI, Legislature, $1,708,000, all items carried. On motion,

Schedule ..llI., Executive Council - $2,182,100, all items carried. On motion, Schedule...IJL, Finance - $6,826,700, all items carried. On motion,

Schedule V, Manpower and Industrial Relations - $2,441,000, all items carried. On motion, Schedule"JIT:, Education - $195,678,800, all items carried. On motion, ScheduleJlll, Justice - $15,881,200, all items carried. On motion, Schedule.Ylll, Social Services - $53,001,700, all items carried. On motion,

Schedule .lX, Rehabilitation and Recreation - $26,630,000, all items carried. 5393

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1848 NM - 2 On motion,

Schedule X, Health - $130,411,600, all items carried. On motion, ScheduleJC::, Mines and Energy - $18,284,000, all items carried, On motion,

Schedule XII., Forestry and Agriculture - $20,252,700, all items carried. On motion, Schedule.xIII., Tourism - $20,737,400, all items carried, On motion, Schedule.xTIZ:, Fisheries - $16,445,700, all items carried, On motion,

Schedule JO[, Industrial Development - $2,705,100, all items carried. On motion, Schedule'Xll'.I, Rural Development - $4,030,700, all i terns carried. On motion, Schedule-nll, Transportation and Co11U11unication - $1,948,700, call items carried. On motion,

Schedule .DIII, Public Works and Services - $47,302,200, all items carried. On motion,

Schedule JtIX; Municipal Affairs and Housing - $42,469,700, all items carried. On motion, Schedule-:ll; Provincial Affairs and Environment,­ $1,906,800, all items carried. On motion a bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of March One Thousand Nine Hundred And Seventy-Six And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service." On motion clauses (1) and (2) carried. On motion

preamble carried. On motion title carried, On motion title to the Resolution carried. On motion Resolution without amendment, carried. 5394

April 28, 1975 Tape 1849 (morning) IB-1 On motion that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Ways and Means reports having passed the resolution in relation to the granting of supply to Her Majesty and recommends that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same, and ask leave to sit again. MR.

SPF.AKE'R : The Chairman of the Committee of Ways and ~eans reports that they have considered the matters to them referred, have passed a resolution in relation to the granting of supply to Her Majesty, recommend that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same, and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted. Committee ordered to sit again. On motion Resolution read a first and second time.

On motion, a bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Maje.sty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thrity-First Day Of March One thousand Nine Hundred And Seventy-Six And For Other Purposes Felating To The Public Service " read a first, second and third time, ordered passed and that its title be as on the Order Paper. :MR. HICKMAN: The Address in Reply, Order

(1) MR. SPEAKER: Order (1), the Address in Reply. The honourable the Minister of Justice adjourned the debate on Friday. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I only adjourned the debate because the honourable the gentleman from Labrador North had to leave and he had indicated he was going to be the last speaker and asked if I would keep the debate open until today and did not want it to go to a vote on Friday afternoon. So, I have nothing to say. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador North. MR. WOOI'WARD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank the Minister of Justice for doing me the courtesy of allowing the debate not to adjourn and giving me the opportunity to speak. Mr. Speaker, as I stand in my place in the House, this is the third time that I have spoken on the Address in Reply in the Throne Speech debate. Today 5395

April 28, 1975 Tape 1849 (morning) IB-2 I have the same type of frustrations and the same feelings tnat I had when I first spoke three years ago, I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure that the people of this Prov:lnce of Newfoundland and Labrador are indeed concerned, ·~e are concerned with the high rate of unemployment, and we are concerned with the lack of projects that are going to go into effect this Rummer.

I think the big concern of all the people and especially the people who are on unemployment is the fact that are they going to find jobs this coming i,eason o_r this construction season, We have gone through the government estimates.

Although we see a large anount of expenditures, but the expenditures are largely in areas that are not job creating, the expenditures are in areas such as the increase into the civil i,ervice, such as the increase into the number of civil servants who have been brought into jobs in the Province, and also over the last two years we have seen a thirty per cent increase in walaries last year in the civil service and this year we are seeing again another thirty per cent increase, 5396

April 28, 1975. Tape 185() RH - l Now, Nr. Speaker, this indicates that the money has got to come by a way of some type of taxation in order to compensate or pay the civil services in this respect. So I am very concerned,and I am not only concerned about that. I think that, Mr. Speaker, because of the fact that there are so many benefits that are now offered by way of unemployment insurance and by way of other federal progrannnes that we have seen maybe the level of employment has not increased, the henefits have not increased drastically to the unemployed.

But the big concern of the people,as I talk to people throughout this Province> am! the big concern of all the people in the Province is, are we going to find jobs this coming season so we can qualify for the unemployment insurance benefits during the \.linter. I think that the time is slipping by. When we think in terms of if there are not sufficient jobs for the number of people who are unemploye<l, a lot of the people will not be eligible next winter to get the benefits of unemployment insurance.

I feel at that time if this is to happen,and there are not sufficient jobs provided for the work force in this Province, that this is the time that we are going to revert back to seeing for the first time,and it can happen this Hinter, we are going to see for the first time the poverty, the standard of living slipping away, people not being able to afford to keep their homes in shape, people not being ahle to afford to cloth their children properly. They will have to revert to the welfare system. This area is a big concern.

I have noticed throughout the Province this year there aremore people loo~ing for jobs than every before. My colleague here who is having a small ship, the honourable Member for Twillingate is telling me that there are a number of people looking for work this year. There is also a number of people throughout rural Newfoundland that will not be probably fishing this summer, are looking for seasonal work. If the government programmes are not providing the jobs and they will not qualify, they cannot get the seasonal jobs, will not qualify for unemployment insurance benefits, Mr.

Speaker, then we are going to see a lot of people that are going to revert back, not 5397·

April 28, 1975. Tape 1850 RJ{ - 2 necessarily back to the days of the dirty 1930's and the nepression, but we have seen it this Winter. I noticed there are a lot of people who are not eligible for unemployment insurance. There are a lot of people throughout this Province who did not qualify because they did not get sufficient work last Summer to qualify for unemployment insurance. These are the areas where we are going to revert back to the type of poverty that we saw in the late 1930's and the early 1940's in this Province. There is another recourse, Mr.

Speaker, that the Newfoundlanders then can again go abroad and seek jobs in other parts of the country, if there are jobs available for them. I do not think that the people in this Province,and I do not think the government of the day,would want to see that happen. We have not seen, Mr. Speaker, we think in terms of the major projects going back to the Liberal administration during the Summer months of the last seven to eight years there was always a number of large construction progrannnes sufficient to take care of the seasonal workers in the Province.

This year, although we have heard some great talk about the beginning of the Lower Churchill and the large hydro development that would employ a number of people, I am to understand, Mr. Speaker, and checking with the people who are actively involved in the consulting work, the government's agents on that project, that we are not looking at any more than sixty or seventy people to be directly employed on that project this coming summer. Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister of Mines and Energy is not aware today there are a number of people in the Goose Bay Happy Valley area that moved in, six or seven people who are planning the work load for the sUDU1Ler and I have personally talked to - MR. BARRY: They are not planning a work load - MR. WOODWARD: Well, Mr. Speaker, if this is not the case maybe the minister should check with his officials and find out what really is going on. We are led to believe, Mr. Speaker, that this year there will be the same type of work that was carried out last year by the 5398

J\riril 28, 1975. Tape 1850 RH - 3 same people and thete will be as many as sixty or seventy people employed on the project. ~- SPEAKER: Order, please! I recognize the honourable member who is speaking at one of the clock. It now beinj\ one of the clock until three of the clock this afternoon. 5399

April 28, 1975 The House resumed at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 1851 (Afternoon) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! When we adjourned for lunch PK - 1 at 1:00 o'clock the Hon. Member for Labrador North was speaking, and I recognize the Hon, Member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, before I go on in the debate, I would first like to move an amendment to the debate, and the amendment reads as follows: To amend the motion that the Addre.ss in Reply, and seconded by the Member for White Bay North, to a'l!'end the motion that the Address in Reply be presented by striking all of the words after that, and replacing them with the following "This House regrets the failure of the government to do those things which they ought to have done and further regrets that they have done those things which they ought not to have done." AN HON, MEMBER: Hear! Hear! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

WOODWARD: I suggest it is a good motion, Mr. Speaker, or amendment. MR. ROBERTS: You are not yielding the floor ...•. MR. WOODWARD: No. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: The wording of the amendment seems a little vague. There is nothing procedurally wrong with it, and the Chair will accept the amendment. AN HON. MEMBER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR~ROBERTS: Hear: Hear! Carry on. Your Honour to a point of order.

It is clearly understood that this is a motion of no confidence by its language is a motion of no confidence,which means that my colleague, among other things,my colleague has unlimited time, so have - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. . SPEAKER: Order, pleasei 5400

J\l:I__IION. ~~~ ~1'L _R(ll\1"!1_1:_f.: '1?. •• \·/OOJ)t 'ARn : ~ape 1851 (Afternoon) PK. - 2 Inaud1 hle . 1st . of AuRuSt to the 1st. of November . Mr . Sreaker, when ,ic recessed for lunch l was speaking on the larp,e oerce nta?,e of unemployment in the rr·ovince. And I mentioned cl-e fact thnt the r e is a r,reat concern throughout the Province amen$: t h,. worl: force that there will not be sufficient jobs this Summer t o l'O ar.ound - f·~.-- C/\RWR: On .~ point of order, Mr.

Spe1tket: . l do not wish to i nterrunt the honourable yentlP.xMn but I did receiv e word on the way :In that his headli11:hts were left on . And since he is speaking there is no other wa_v for me to ge t this attention other than to get up on " pof.nt of order. U he woul d like to send someone out to turn them off it will prohahly save his battery . ~'I_ lltN28 'fiP.R_: lnaud ihle. Order, !'lease! !:.Ii· . . W.~On!MRD: If I ma y, "r. Sneak er, I want to thank the lion . Member for ~c . John's ~fort h hut t ha t little prohlem has already been taken care• of .

Rut I want to t han!: him very much for hringinP, it to my attPntjon and t o the attention of t he Ho1.rne. 'Tr.. Sr,eaker , ~·e have nou concluded - nnd I may differ w:ith thr• "i.n:lst er of },!ines and f.ne r g~· on the development of Ctm,chill Falls o r thC' Ln•_.;1>1: Churchill, if you talk in terms of the number of jobs that ,.,1.11. he " rovided t his Summer. The peop le of this Province have rern leri to hclieve that tl:is par t icular programme 1-•ill employ a num\,er of neople i n s easona:J johs fo r a period of five to seven years .

In tdld nr. wt t h the r overnm ent ' s a p.ents, the peop le who a-re doing t he conf'uJ. t i nJ> !-'Ork, and the pre limi.nar y work on the Palls and the sites thi s vear T was ]eel to believe that the re will. l;,e approximatelv sixtv o r qc,vencv j or~ nr ovjded t his Summer . l naudihl. e . 5401

April 28, 1975 Tape 1852 (Afternoon) IR-1 Well, Mr. Speaker, I may not be right but I am led to believe that contracts, local contracts are now being called for the different phases of work on the Lower Churchill. The only work that is involved on the Lower Churchill, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that the erection of a camp site, a causeway to be built across a particular river which is namely, the Penis River. MR. NEARY: They drill a few holes. MR. WOODWARD: A few holes will be drilled down stream from the drilling that took place lest year. This will involve the employment of sixty or eighty people. Mr.

Speaker, that will be the extent of the work on the Lower Churchill Hydro Development site this Summer. We think in terms of - it was brought to the attention of this Rouse although the honourable Minister of Mines and Resources may n6t agree, that we have heard from the Minister of Fisheries, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, the Minister of Finance, and we are led to believe,or at least this House has been told, that the financing on the Lower Churchill will not be concluded or finalized before October of this year. So, in that respect, Mr.

Speaker, I am led to believe,and indeed the people of Labrador and I suspect the people of the Island portion of the Province are led to believe,that the financing will not be concluded nor the deals made for the financing of the project until October. Then there is little chance of seeing any real construction started this year other than the preliminary work that is going on and which has been financed by the corporation through the means of getting sources or funds from the revenue that is coming in from the Upper Church! 11. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Interim financing. MR.

WOODWARD: No, there is no interim financing. There is only a matter of some $17 million and that is all has been allotted for it I understand now, Mr. Speaker, that they are siphoning off some of the revenue from the Upper Churchill to help to get started on the Lower Churchill. This is the means whereby this is where the financing for the preliminary work that is going on today is coming from. Maybe the minister can tell us different, but as I understand it from the sources that are employed by the minister and his government that 5402

-~Pr-11 28, 1Q75 Tape 1852 (Afternoon) IB-2 this is the case. MR. llARRY: You have got everythine about half right, but everything is half wrong as well. AN HONOURABLE MEMJIF.R: Inaunible. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, then when we think in terms of what is going to happen as far as the second phase of the refinery in Come By Chance, there is nothing, no definite decision has yet been taken as far as the expansion on the r.ome Ry Chance refinery. I understand this could probably he nelayen further. If we are going into any substantial jobs for this season, Mr.

Speaker, there is no doubt that the people of this Province were looking at the expansion of the refinery and the development of the Lower r.hurchill. If this is not the case and those two projects as we understand it now wi 11 not he going ahead, then as I understand it there are a number of people throughout this Province who will have to go abroad this Summer to seek employment. Now, this is what Jam told. You know, I only believe in what I am told. SOME HONOURABLE 'ME}!BERS: Inaudible. AN HONOUFARLE MEMBER: By who? MR, WOODWAFD: Ry the people throughout the Province. The government is not saying anything.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudih le. "IR. WOODWARD: I will repeat, Mr, Speaker, for the benefit of the Premier 1 seeing he just came hack to the House and has taken his seat, that I am led to helieve and T have heen told by the agents of the government that there will be approximately sixty or eighty people this year employed on the construction phase of the Lower Churchill. Now, maybe the Premier can differ with this. I have known tenders that have been called for small portions of the jobs, such as one causeway across a small river, and the other work that has been called is moving camps and erecting camps.

But, there is no real construction work that is going to be started. AN 110NOURARLE MEMBER: They will drill a few holes down stream. Ml!. WOODWARD: They will drill a few holes down stream from where they drilled a few holes last year. Instead of having three holes, they will 5403

April 28, 1975 Tape 1852 (Afternoon) probably end up with six holes. If six holes are going tc, be more beneficial than three, maybe this will give them some indication if they should go ahead with the job or not. AN. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Rear! Rea:t! MR. WOODWARD: But. as we understand it. Mr. Speaker, that is .the IB-3 case and the people in this Province are not relying on jobs that are going to come from the development of the Lower Churchill. I do not see any great government announcements going out and soliciting people to go to work on that project. 5404

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1853 NM - 1 MR. WOODWARD: We all know this time in the year, especially May and June when a lot of our seasonal workers are very anxious to go to work and if the y do not secure jobs in that period of time then they will more than likely ~ot end up with enough stamps at the end of September or 0ctober when the season closes down to qualify for unemployment in,rnrance. And these are the areas, Mr. Speaker, these are the areas where we will see what is happening, if we do not consider a depression takin)! place in this Province.

If we have to see a percentage of our eligible work force this winter, to go through the winter without )!ettinp the benefits of LIP programmes into the communities or getting the benefit of unemployment insurance, they will have no other resort but to go to welfare. And this Province as we will see next Winter if there is not some major works programme we will see a large number of our able hnr1lrr1 men on relief. Now if that is not a depression, Mr. Speaker, and we are not heading back to the dirty !030's and the early 1Q40's then maybe the government can tell me different.

But I know now a fair percentage of people in this Province, that their unemployment insurance benefits have run out and they cannot secure jobs. And they are very concerned if they will be able to secure jobs over the suimner months. MR. NEARY: They are going to send them home to Japan. MR • 000\~ I\RD : So, Mr. Speaker, on the suraface as I have said, we are looking at two major programmes and maybe the Premier or his ministers can tell us of some other si pnificent development that is going to put a numhP.r of our people into the work force.

If there has been the people throuphout this Province do not know about it. Industry today and business is plagued with people looking for jobs. I t is the first time for a long period of time that we have had a number of people throughout this Province concerned about getting work. Now maybe we will see the same things that happened in previous years where a number of our work force will be siphoned off into Ontario or into Alberta to get _jobs or on the C:reat Lakes or some other area. 5405

April 28, 1975 Tape No. 1853 NM - 2 But, Mr. Speaker, these are the problems that we are faced with and I suspect that there is no remedy. The government in the Throne Speech Debate had some platitudes of what was going to happen but then again there is no evidence of it. As has been mentioned in this House, we are going to do a number of things, we are going to get a number of programmes going. When you travel, Mr.

Speaker, throughout the Province there is no evidence,that has not surfaced, the people can not see it, and they fail to understand why the government is saying that there will be programmes going when there is no such thing as programmes going. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a very few comments on the fishery. We have had a great set back with the strike and the trawlermen's strike, which no doubt left a lot of our trawlermen - depleted the reserves or resources that they had built up during the three month strike. But, Mr.

Speaker, we have not seen aaything happening from a provincial point of view other than a Select Connnittee of this House, once again going throughout this Province and asking the fishermen what is wrong with the fishery, will you tell us what is wrong with the inshore fishery. Hr. Speaker, I suspect that if one could pay attention to the media over the last couple of year through one means and another, we have probably seen on television at least fifty per cent of our prominent fishermen on one programme or another telling the government, telling the people of this Province, what is wrong with the fishery.

We have neglected to pay any attention to what those people are saying and consequently this House has seen fit to put together a select coI1DDittee to go around and once again, to hear the 5406

,\"1ril 2$, l 'J75 . Tnpe 1854 RP. - l samr. storv, Hr. Speaker, the same story over and over again that we have t>l'en hP.arin,I'. for t he last ten to fif teen years . The people in the Provine~ are ~ettin p, fed u p , as t he Labrador people were fed up with P('(>nlc cominr, aroun<l aisl-.:inf\ <jue·stions anrl being harrassc tl hy commissions ·, hv one nerson or another. Tell us w.hat is wronis? What have we done wron.1;? l·l11at hnve we not clone? The fishermen in this Province have t old the r,overnment, thev have cold the ~!inister of Fisheries , an<l 1-11,at has happened? What hal'. happ('ned, Mr.

Spe'aker, as a result of t!te tra wl:ermcn strike? Or.ce ar--::iin, the Province, the Department of Fisheries did not have the financ:l.al reserves to come to the rescue of t ',c fishermen . ~o, consequently, once a~ain 0-ttawa were forced t o come in to bail them out . Otta..ra again is seeing t he problems that are developing and which is l argely out of the control of the Prov.incial C:overnment with regards to the development of the inshore fishery. So, Ottawa a~ain, Mr.

Speaker, have come in with a two and a hilH c-cncs per pound suhsidy on fish 1ust to maintain that level of income fo r inshore fishermen . nut these are not the problems, Mr. i:cNiker , that at:e facinr, our fishermen today, are not the oroblems o f nernetual suhs i riies. Our people have 1,no..rn subsidies for short ocrtods of cine. They have know subsidies for long periods of time. Wh/!t h;ive we <lone as a Provincial r.overnment? Hhat has the Provincial Government, cite Department of Fisheries of t his Province done with r i:r.ar<ls to fishery? ,.,. l!ONOllRAlll.F. 1-tmffiF.R: Jlurned the.ir boats.

I do not chink they have burned their boats, l'r. - A>' l!ONO\Jr.Alll.E MF~ffiER: That is what they were goin g- to do . I was t hC're . HP. . tlF.1\RY: ---··- - Do not be so foolish,b oy'. A'! IIO~TOIIRA!ll.P. Ml¼'fllf '{: I was thet:e . ~:. WOO~lflR._'.1' Hr. Speaker, - 'ffi . Sl'f.AKF:!l. : Ord.ei: , p le11se! '.fll ..:..110()_0\.IARI): l know areas that are very vital - 540 7

April 28, 1975. Tape 1854 RH - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WOODWARD: I know areas that are very vital to our fishermen and if there is any lack of regional representation in any department of government it lies with the Department of Fisheries. There are areas of this Province that never ever saw a fisheries officer. We talked in terms of the regional offices that would be distributed throughout the Province,but what has happened to those regional offices? What guidance have the fishermen in those particular areas received from the regional fisheries officer?

We have not seen any regional fisheries officers, Mr. Chairman. We have one of the most viable fisheries in Canada today,as I have mentioned in this House on a number of occasions. It can be as valuable as the salmon fishery in British Columbia. But what have we done to develop the salmon and char on the Labrador Coast? As far as this government is concerned the only people, not from the Department of Fisheries, we have retail store managers who have no expertise. You cannot blame them. They are good people. They are good in their own field. They are good at running retail stores.

But they are looking after the fisheries. They are charged with the responsibility of developing the fishery which is far out of their fie_ld, Mr. Speaker. As a result of that we have not seen from a production point of view, we have not seen any programmes that are offering our fishermen any encouragement to go out and get more fish, neither are we offering them the technique or the technology to go out to produce more fish. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that there - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WOODWARD: I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, if we can retail salmon for ten dollars a pound in Denmark and in Sweden and in European countries,that that ten dollars a pound - that we can at least build a viable industry from a production point of view and from a marketing point of view. I just mentioned this morning to the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation who is responsible for Labrador services the fact that we have some 18,000 or 20,000 nounds of salmon that is sitting in 5408

Anril 28, 1°75 Tape 1855 (Afternoon) PK - 1 a refrigerator in 'fakkovik that have not yet been marketed. AN HON. '!F.l'ITlE'R : What you are saying is vou should get $l'l.nn a ponrid for it. '·!R . WOODWARD: ·· ·---- -- 'lo, \Je can get , the industry can get $10. 00 a pound for fresh salmor .. Inaudible. l.fR . TO()Dl·!Al!.D : Nm,•, ~r. Sµeaker, there is a market, there is a verv valuahle market. Well what are our fishermen getting for that merchantahle fish, the salmon and the char? They are merely getting fifty·-f:lve to !'lixtv cents a poand.

You can p,o into Montreal in any of the better restaurants in Montreal or Toronto and if you are goi.ng to r,et served char from the Arctic or char from the Labrador Coa!'lt it is going to cost you $4 to $5 a pound. 'lR. MOORES: Will vou nermit a question? 'IR. WOODWARn: Of course. I will. MR. F. t100RES: 1 would like to ask the honourable member a question, '!r. Sneaker. If we give him the agency - he is very active on the Labrador Coast - if we give the honourable member an agency for salmon will he guarantee to pay the fishermen $4 to $5 a pound? Mr.

Speaker, I i:..ill not say to the Premier that I will nav the fishermen $4 to $5 a pound. llut what I will say to the Premier that I will pay more than the sixty-five to seventy cents a nound than they are getting today. AN HON. HEM.BER : HR. FOODWARD: ··------ AN ]ION. ,.ITTH!lE11 : _MR. WOODWARD : AN }l()N. '·!F.HRE'R : w-- • - - Inaudible. And nm,, , 'Ir. Speaker, - Inaudible . what we are thinking in terms of - Tnaudihle. - now you can treat this subject very li~htly, Mr. Speaker.

And regardless of how we look at it we are producing, somewhere off the Lahrador Coast, somewhere in the vicinity of 600,000 to 700,000 pounds of salmon and char a year. That is a very viable industry. That industry properly developed, Mr. Speaker, can provide a standard of living for our fishermen that is much higher than what th<>.v are receivi.nr, torlay. Rut what are they p;etting? No, Mr. 5409

April 28, 1975 Tape 1855 !Afternoon) PK - 2 Speaker, it is the curing and the processing methods that we must change,as we must get that fresh salmon and char to the marl:et as soon as it is caught. And the government have not seen fit, Mr. Speaker, to make a study. We have had a number of studies done , as I mentioned ·in the House last,,year. We had one, I think our only visitor from the Department of Fisheries who came up to Hopedale with some hare-brained scheme as to - they were going to develop, and they were going to get into the belu~a whale. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WOODWARD: AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

WOODWARD: Where? Up in Hopedale. Inaudible. I do not know what a belu~a whale is. But, you know, this is the extent - rather than going in - MR. NEARY: Go get the Member for Burgeo.He would be a whale. I do not know if he would be the beluga whale or not. MR. WOODWARD: - rather than going in, Mr.

Speaker, and helping the fishermen with the salmon and char- the codfish no longer exists in that part of the coast, but we do have a very viable salmon and char fishery, and if properly promoted and properly developed it can be a worthwhile industry, a very viable industry, a beneficial industry both to the fishermen and this Province. But, Hr. Speaker, as I have said the people who are dealing with that particular industrv are not people who have any knowledge of the fishery. The Department of Fisheries have not gotte