Manitoba Hansard — 29 November 1999 (Sitting 4, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-4

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session -Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No.4- 1:30 p.m., Monday, November 29, 1999

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMJAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNJSSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGJFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

35 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, November 29, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to table the fo llowing reports, copies of which have been previously distributed: The Public Service Group Insurance Fund Benefits Summa ry and Auditor's Report and Financial Statements fo r the Year Ended April 30, 19 99; the Civil Service Commission Annual Report; the 19 98-19 99 Manitoba Labour Board Annual Report, the Office of the Fire Comm issioner Annual Report; the Quarterly Financial Report fo r Manitoba Public Insurance fo r August 31, 19 99; and the 19 98-1999 Department of Labour Annual Report. Hon.

Ron Lemieux (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I am pleased to table the fo llowing annual reports fo r the Department of Consumer and Corporate Af f airs, copies of which have previously been distributed: Consumer and Corporate Af f airs 19 98-1 999 Annual Report; Companies Of fice 19 98-99 Annual Report; Manitoba Gaming Control Commission 19 98-99 Annual Report; A uta mobile Inju ry Comp ensation Appeal Commis sion 19 98/99 Annual Report; Residential Tenancies Commission 19 98 Annual Report; Residential Tenancies Branch 19 98 Annual Report; The Property Registry 19 98/99 Annual Report; and the Vital Statistics Agency 19 98-99 Annual Report.

Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am pleased to table the fo llowing reports, copies of which have been previously distributed: The Manitoba Human Rights Commission Annual Report 19 98; Justice and Justice Initiatives Annual Report 19 98-19 99; Of fice of the Comm issioner Law Enf orcement Review Agency 19 98; the Manitoba Law Ref orm Commission Twenty-eighth Annual Report 19 98-99; The Public Trustee Annual Report 19 98-19 99; Civil Legal Services Special Operating Agency (Revised) Annual Report fo r the year ending March 31, 19 99; Legal Aid Manitoba Twenty-seventh Annual Report March 31, 19 99, Criminal Justice Division victims services Annual Report 19 98-19 99.

I am also pleased to table, pursuant to The Regulations Act, a copy of each regulation registered with the Registrar of Regulations since the regulations were tabled in this House in April of 19 99. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Driver Licencing Information Security Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Government Services): I have a minis terial statement. Mr. Speaker, I am inf orming Manitobans today about the loss of a data tape by Elections Canada which included personal inf ormation of 675,000 Manitoba drivers.

The inf ormation went missing in January of this year during the transfer of data fro m the Division of the Driver and Vehicle Licencing to Elections Canada. The provincial Ombudsman recently provided my department with a report on the results of the special investigation conducted by the Ombuds man's office regarding this incident. I believe it is extremely important that the public know that the missing tape contained drivers' names, addresses and drivers' licence numbers.

The information provided to Elections Canada did not include the names of any voters on Election Manitoba's obscured public electors list who did not wish to share their personal inf ormation in support of the National Register of Electors, nor did Elections Canada receive any personal information fro m the driver licensing protected database which includes the names of any persons who requested this personal information not be released.

36 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 19 99 * (1 335 ) The loss of this inf ormation is, however, of great concern to me as minister and of great concern to our government. The fo rmer govern ment of Manitoba approved the disclosure of personal inf ormation fo r drivers' licensing records to Elections Canada in 19 98. The depart ment provided quarterly updates of informa tion to Elections Canada headquarters in Ottawa under an interim agreement. Upon notification of the security breach last January, no further inf ormation was provided to Elections Canada.

The public was never inf ormed however that the inf ormation went missing and remains unaccounted fo r. Our government is also extremely concerned that many Manitobans were unaware of the agreement to transfer data to Elections Canada. Instead of obtaining direct consent fr om motorists prior to disclosing the inf ormation, they gave notice of the agreement by way of newspaper advertisements. The driver licensing inf ormation that went missing was provided last January in support of updating the National Register of Electors, which was established under the Canada Elections Act.

Other data sources used by Elections Canada include Revenue Canada fr om tax returns, Citizenship and Immig ration Canada fo r new citizens and Vital Statistics fo r death registrations. The provincial Ombudsman's investigation was initiated to determine whether the personal inf ormation had been protected by the department in accordance with The Freedom of Informa tion and Protection of Privacy Act.

The report findings into the security arrangements of Driver and Vehicle Licencing resulted in several recommendations made in the public interests of improving security of Manitoba's personal inf ormation in the custody and control of my department. I take the incident and the Ombudsman's findings and recommendations very seriously. I have met with the Ombudsman and the Chief Electoral Officer fo r Elections Canada, and the missing inf ormation still cannot be accounted fo r. Theref ore I have ordered independent, external reviews by the private sector to address two areas of concern.

First, the legislative authority and consent matters are being reviewed by independent legal counsel fo r the government; secondly, I am having a comprehensive security audit of Driver and Vehicle Licencing conducted by an independent firm. This review will include security arrange ments fo r the collection, storage, use, disclosure and destruction of personal inf ormation. Until these reviews have taken place and we have responded fully to the Ombudsman's report, I want to assure Manitobans that no fu rther drivers' licensing inf ormation will be provided to Elections Canada. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste.

Rose): I thank the minis ter fo r his statement. I think the first thing that one would observe is that one would assume that Elections Canada was a reasonable place with which to share inf orm ation. I share his concern that we now apparently have no accurate trace of how that inf ormation has been used or stored and cannot be retracted or retrieved apparently in a fo rm that is acceptable to us. I would support that we seek the inf ormation as to what may have happened to this informa tion and ensure the public that it does not happen again. * ( 13 40) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today fo rty Grade 9 students fr om Boiss evain School under the direction of Ms. Donna Woodcock, Mrs. Joanne Cuvelier and Mr. Allan Stewart. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member fo r Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire). We also have in attendance eighteen Grade 5 students fr om Royal School under the direction of Mr. Greg Carpenter. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Leader of the Of ficial Opposition (Mr. Filmon).

Also, we have nineteen Grades 4 to 10 students fr om Waldheim Sc hool under the direction of Ms. Wanda Penner . This school is located in the constituencv

f) f the honoura ble member fo r Morris (Mr. Pitura) .

November 29. 19 99 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 37 On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Government Hirings Approval Process Mr. Gary Filmon (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is fo r the Premier. Given that this government and this Premier already have broken their first election promise by abando ning their comm itment to balancing the budget this year -[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. please. The honourable Leader of the Offi cial Opposition has the floor. Mr.

Filmon: -and given that the only informa tion that the Premier could provide about measures that his government has taken to control expenditures and to avoid a deficit was to place a hiring fr eeze when they took of fice on October 5, I wonder if the Premier can explain why there have been 57 job postings in the pages of the Winnipeg Free Press, in Saturday editions, between October 9 and November 27. Did he or his Minister of Finance (Mr. Sel inger) approve every one of those postings? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we have reduced the siz e of cabinet from 18 to 15, fr om the fo rmer Premier's cabinet size. We have reduced the number of special assistants. We have reduced the number of executive assistants. We have reduced the number of deputy ministers already fr om 24 down to 19. We would note the Deloitte and Touche document outlined by the Leader last week, and again I would ref er to it this week, speaks to expenditure comm itments that have been made by the previous government .

It clearly delineates our comm itment on hal lway medicine versus the commitments of expenditures that we inherited fr om the previous government. We are going to do everything possible, Mr. Speaker, to deal with the situation we face. As I outlined on Friday, we are quite worried about the agricultural support programs, and we do note that part of the deficit has been created by a legitimate payment of the $70 mill ion, which we are now trying to renegotiate.

We are very concerned about the issue of the liability of pensions which has gone up from $1 billion to $2.5 bill ion, as noted by the Deloitte and Touche report that we have received. We are also very concerned about the connection between the responsibility fo r the expenditure of fu nds in this Legislature and the authority to expend funds that we see all the way through health care. Mr. Filmon: Of course, Mr. Sp eaker, everyone took notice of the fact that the Premier did not answer the question.

It was a very straight fo rward question: 57 job postings in the Winnipeg Fr ee Press in Saturday editions; did he or the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selin ger), given his instructions to freeze hiring, approve that those hirings continue? Mr. Doer: I said on Friday, and I will say it again today, that we are not going to go into this absolute pre-election binge of spending in the election campaign, running the deficit up and then- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable First Minister, please continue. Mr. Doer: Yes, thank you, Mr.

Speaker. -go into a massive starvation action such as firing a thousand nurses, as they did after the last election campaign, which has led to double and triple time payments in our health care system because of their absolute starvation budgets fo r health care, combined with their binge spending that took place in the six months before the election. Mr. Speaker, I have said and we have stated before that essential positions will be filled. I have also said that we are going to reduce the size of government in a systematic- An Honourable Member: Is that a hiring fr eeze?

38 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 19 99 Mr. Doer: Well, the members of the fo rmer bloated cabinet do not need to give us any advice whatsoever, Mr. Speaker. We have reduced the size of cabinet and we have reduced the number of deputy minis ters. We will continue to find long-term solutions to provide services to the people of Manitoba and reduce the deputy minis ter level fr om the fo rmer government's levels that we inherited. * (1 345) Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, it now appears as though there is not a hiring fr eeze except in essential positions, so I want to ask the Premier: was the extra communicator in his office an essential position that they have hired over and above those who were there? I want to ask him : is the co-ordinator of the Business Start Program in the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines an essential position, since that is a program that his party said they were going to elimin ate as part of their reduction of business subsidies?

Finally, I want to ask him: given that during the election campaign they said that they would merge the Winnipeg Hospital Authority and the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority, and three of the positions in the November 20 and 27 Winnipeg Free Press are fo r senior positions in the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, how does that square when a week earlier or 10 days earlier the mi nister said that he was going to merge the two and elim inate many, many senior administrative positions? How does all of this work? Mr.

Doer: I notice he did not ask any questions about Sma rtHealth or Faneuil or $55 million of wasted money authorized by members opposite and kept secret fr om the people of Manitoba when they decided to write it of f before the election campaign. Mr. Speaker, we have reduced the number of communi cators fr om six to fo ur. We have reduced the number of deputy ministers fr om 24 to 19 . We are reducing the number of assistant deputy minis ters. We have reduced the number of cabinet ministers. We are going to reduce the number of people working in the two health authorities.

We are combining the two health authorities that were established by members opposite. If there are positions that are proceeding fr om those authorities that do not make sense to the public, we will look at them. Our Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) will look at those bulletins because we are going to have more nurses at the bedside and less bureaucrats in government, unlike members opposite. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Of ficial Opposition, with a new question. Mr. Filmon: As usual, a lot of hot air, because the ads are calling fo r more administrators not more bedside nurses, Mr.

Speaker, and that is the truth. On the government's website fo r hiring, of the 38 jobs posted today, seven are fr om the Department of Family Services and Housing. Given the Minister responsible fo r Family Services and Housing's (Mr. Sale) unalterable opposition to balanced budgets, has he been given an exemption fr om this hiring fr eeze, or are they anticipating a greater workload because they have cancelled the workfare program? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, he would note that we have reduced the number of deputy minis ters fr om Housing and Family Services.

We have eliminated one deputy minis ter position under the Ministry of Family Services and Housing, and we have not stopped yet to combine the layers and over the long haul make effic iencies in government. As I have said bef ore [interje ction] But I want to say to the fo rmer First Minister and Premier that we would love to find out where they got the money to pay $33 million to SmartHealth without any authority fr om the people of this province through this Legislature, why they did not tell us bef ore the election that they planned on an exit ramp that .would cost us $33 million , Mr.

Speaker, why they ran up $20 million in taxpayers' costs in Faneuil. The answer to the question is we have already reduced the number of deputy minis ters under the Ministry of Family Services. *( 135 0)

November 29, 19 99 LEGISLA TIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 39 Deficit Reduction Departmental Expenditures Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, can the Finance minister indicate, in general terms, what instructions have been given to ministers, deputy ministers and other managers in order to manage expenditure pressures that he has alluded to? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): thank the honourable member fo r his question. Two days after the financial report was announced, we put out a statement that indicated the measures we are going to take to address this issue.

We said we would do a careful review of all vacant positions to ensure only those providing fro nt-line service delivery are fil led immediately, allowing senior management positions to be reduced in keeping with election commitments. All cabinet ministers are aware of this and are proceeding accordingly to only fill those jobs that they think are essential to providing essential services to Manitobans. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, a question to the same mini ster. There are departments with discretionary spending, areas that can counterbalance the expenditure pressures that he has ref erenced.

Is he assured that he has the fu ll support of his cabinet colleagues to create a lapse factor to of fset expenditures? Mr. Selinger: Thank you fo r the question. This notion of a lapse factor is one that I ju st recently became aware of. The way we are proceeding is as fo llows: Any new expenditure that we make, we are looking for an of fs et so that, as we go fo rward, we balance out all our commi tments going fo rward this year. So we are looking fo r an of fset to any new expenditures, and we are hoping that will generate a lapse factor as in previous years. Balanced Budget Government Commitment Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, my third question is to the Minister of Education. In the Brandon Sun of November 19, it says NDP Ed ucation Minister Drew Caldwell said the new government has no plans to start cost cutting. Is this indicative of the lack of will to balance the budget this year? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): I cannot be accountable, Mr. Spe aker, for what appears in the press that is not attributed to me, and that particular comment was not attributed to me.

I can recount fo r the Legislature two particular editorials fr om November 18 , entitled Fiscal mess left behind, which condemns the outgoing government fo r the absolute disaster in finances that has been left with the incoming government and also, on November 27, Saturday just past, Filmon passes budget buck [interjection] Very, very many of them. Conservative Leader Gary Filmon says he would have been able to balance the budget if only voters had given him a fo urth term, reads the editorial. Sorry, Mr. Filmon, we are not buying it, not fo r a second. We are sorry, Mr.

Filmon, we are not buying it, not fo r a second. The Brandon Sun, of course, Mr. Speaker, is notable fo r not being particularly favourable to the policy of any parties, and it is good to see that the responsibility for the current fiscal mess in this province is being laid firmly at the doorstep of the members opposite. Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Recommendations Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, we see it again here today, the member of the cabinet being quoted in his hometown paper saying one thing and coming here today and denying it and pretending he did not say it because he is now in trouble with his Premier (Mr. Doer). This is about credibility. It is about what they say, what they mean and how they say it. Mr. Speaker, today the Fi rst Minister, along with his Justice critic and Minister of Aboriginal Af f airs (Mr. Robinson), had a press conf erence

40 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 19 99 announcing the creation of an impleme ntation commission on the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. Now, Mr. Sp eaker, in the course of that press conf erence, the First Minister was asked a very simple question many times by members of the media: did this implem entation and did this government support a cornerstone of that particular report which was the creation of a separate ju stice system or systems fo r aboriginal people? The First Minister waffled on the answer, would not answer it, denied it.

I ask him today here in the House: does his party stand by that recommendation? * 1355 Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Sp eaker, we are proud of the fact that even members opposites' allies in Alberta have announced major ref orms in aboriginal ju stice to move their province ahead into the next century. Regrettably, members opposite are still stuck in the past. We want to work on a positive relationship with aboriginal people. The recom mendation that was imp lemented today was Recomm endation No. 1, to establish a joint commission.

The recommendation says that the terms of ref erence include working within the existing criminal ju stice system. I am proud of the announcement of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) and the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Af fairs (Mr. Robinson) today. I am proud of the fact that we have chosen Paul Chartrand and Wendy Whitecloud to proceed with this, and I think all members should be proud that, after one party neglected working with First Nations fo r 10 years, we are moving fo rward. Mr. Praznik: So , Mr.

Sp eaker, what the First Minister is telling this House today, which the First Minister would not say to the media in the press conf erenc e, is the recommendation on page 642 of this report is rejected by the New Dem ocratic Party government. Yes or no? Mr. Doer: Mr. Sp eaker, we made a promise in the election campaign, and we made a promise when the report came out that we would impleme nt Recomm endation No. 1, to establish a jo int commission to look at all the recommendations in the Justice report and come back to Manitobans with a long-term plan to be recommended to government.

That is the only recommendation we implem ented today. The terms of ref erence developed in consultation with the First Nations communities, the aboriginal communities, and the commiss ioners today include the terms of ref erence within the existing Criminal Code. If the members opposite cannot stomach the honour of us just coming fo rward with Recom mendation No. 1, it is too bad fo r them. I think it is good fo r Manitobans. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Sp eaker, the First Minister fo rgets that the other cornerstone recommen dation was a settlement of land claims that this administration did.

But I ask him, again, to confi rm-so we are absolutely clear-that the terms of ref erence given to the commi ssioners will preclude them fr om acting on the recomm endations- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Mr. Praznik: -contained on page 642 of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. A yes or a no. Mr. Doer: Mr. Sp eaker, I have answered that question twice. The recomme ndation and the comm itment we made during the election campaign was Recomme ndation No. 1, numero uno, Recommen dation No. 1.

You can go through every page of the Justice Inquiry and ask about every sentence in that report, but what our comm itment today was and what we brought fo rward in an honourable way today was an honourable way to move fo rward with First Nations and aboriginal people in Manitoba by proceeding only with the recomme ndation to establish a commission. I am proud that Wendy Whitecloud and Paul Chartrand have joined us in this regard. You know, you look at Ralph Klein in Alberta that is going ahead. If you want to stay back in the past, go ahead.

We are going fo rward, working with mutual respect with aboriginal people in Manitoba. Flooding Agriculture Disaster Assistance Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Sp eaker, I would like to pose a question to the Minister of Agriculture today. and it is in regard to the flood

November 29, 1999 LEGIS LATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 41 in southwest Manitoba and in southeast Manitoba that we all experienced this spring. I want to , first of all, ask the minis ter: were you in the House when the bud get was voted on this spring, and did you vote in favour of the bud get that the previous government imple mented in the House? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr.

Sp eaker, I am pleased that the critic fo r Agriculture spoke up, but I had expected he would ask a substantial question and that he would ask a question to de al with the real farm crisis that our prod ucers are facing and that the fed eral government is ref using to addr ess and one that we have asked all members to stand together on and fight fo r our prod ucers to ensure that we do not have a majo rity of farmers going und er because of lack of support by the fed eral government in this crisis. *

(1400) Mr. Penner: I believe, Mr. Sp eaker , that the honourable minis ter and the Leade r of the Opposition were present in Mel ita when there were 3,000 people who met and voiced their concerns about the di ffi culty they were facing in that region. I believe the now Premier of the province - Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Mr. Penner: I want to ask the- Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of or de r , Mr. Sp eaker , this is just to remind all memb ers- and many here are new to the Chamber, but members old and new alike-of Beauchesne Rule 410: "Preambles to questions should be brief ... " and, as well, 409: "The question must be brief . A

preamble need not exceed one carefully dr awn sentence." Mr. Sp eaker , it is the practice in this House that there be a

preamble in the first question, and subsequent supplementary questions have no

preamble at all. Mr. Speaker: I thank the honourable House Leade r fo r his advice. The practice of the House has been a short

preamble to the initial question and no

preamble to supplementary questions. So I would ju st like to of fe r that advice to all members. *** Mr. Penner: Thank you very much , Mr. Sp eaker. I will attempt to abi d e by those rules. I want to ask the Premier, then, whether he was present and whether he voiced his strong commi tment at that meeting of 3,000 people in Melita the day when they asked fo r support fr om this government, which would eventually cost some $70 million or more, and whether he voiced his support fo r that expen diture of money after the bud get ha d already been passed in this House. Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): I ju st said in the answer to the first question fr om the honourable Leade r of the Opposition that we had in fact supported that, so it is not necessary to ask it again. But I will repeat that I was prou d to be in Melita with a number of members here. I was prou d to work with the Leade r of the Liberal Party and the member fo r Arthur-Virde n , to go to Ottawa with all our prod ucers in a united way. I was di sappointed in the response we received .

The adju stment to AIDA of some $200 million I think is inade quate and unaccept able to the pro d ucers in Manitoba and in Sa skatchewan, if not in other provinces. Last week we worked on a communique to the fed eral government which includ ed the agri cultural crisis as part of the commu nique to the fed eral government. I remember speaking in Melita saying that the people there de served the same support un der the di saster assistance program that was recommended and fu lfilled to some de gree in the Re d River Valley in 1997.

I remember at the time the irony of course was when the fed eral government was looking at supporting the NHL hockey franchises. I thought it was wrong to look at money fo r NHL hockey players and leave western Canadi an farmers do wn. That is why we are going to continue to fight. Mr. Penner: Mr. Sp eaker , if the now Premier knew that we ha d passed a bud get and he committed his party to support the di saster aid

42 LEGIS LATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 19 99 program, can the Premier explain then why is there a proje cted $66-million variance that has been listed fo r the 19 99 flood emergency expenditure and why was it included as an additional expenditure when the previous government comm itted to collect the money fr om the fe deral government or take it fr om the Fiscal St abiliz ation Fund? And why are you adding $66 million to create a defi cit based on that expenditure that could not have been fo recast in the budget of I999-2000? Mr. Doer: We did not add the variances in the Deloitte Touche report.

The variances were added by Deloitte Touche. They were done so in consultation with the Provincial Auditor, with the deputy Finance minister who had been appointed by the previous government and maintained by us, by the head of the Treasury Board who had been appointed by the previous government, same individual maintained by us. and the Clerk of Executive Council who has worked on fe deral-provincial aff airs. That is the comm ittee that is dealing with the variances fr om the budget to the actual expenditures. The other expenditure, of course, that is way beyond the budget is in the health care field.

We can see fr om April, May, June and July fr om memos that we have that systematically month by month by month members opposite knew that the spending and expenditures were going up in health care way beyond the budget. Having said that, I answered the member's question in the first question that the Leader of the Opposition asked. The government signed the Order -in-Council, I believe, the day of the election. We support the fact that they have set that money out, and we are doing everything we can to recover our share fr om the fe deral govern ment as members opposite had comm itted themselves to.

I would like to recover all of that money fr om the fe deral government but, beyond that, we are working very hard fo r long-term programs so that we do not have to have short term, emergency, ad hoc payments. Nortel Plant Closure Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question is fo r the Premier. The Premier has travelled twice to Ottawa on behalf of the farmers; he has been to Washington and Devils Lake on behalf of environmental issues. I would like to ask the Premier what he did to keep hundreds of high-tech and high-wage jobs in Manitoba which were lost when Norte! left. Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): I really fe el, as all Manitobans fe el, that the decision by Norte! a fe w years ago to send some of their staff to Calgary and their subsequent decision to send other staff remaining to Ottawa is very, very unfortunate fo r Manitoba. We were advised that it might happen or might not happen in the transition period fr om newspaper articles fr om Martin Cash. I believe at the end of Se ptember he indicated that this was going to happen. We do believe that the jobs are important to Manitoba.

We believe the jobs in Pinawa, the I, 10 0 scientific jobs that we have lost in Pinawa, are really a blow to Manitobans. So we are hoping now, as a new government, that part of what we can do fo r high-tech jobs in Manitoba is to increase training at communi ty colleges and universities, but there is no question we were disappointed, in the transition period, to hear of this loss of jobs. We were fu rther disappointed when we heard that Atomic Energy of Canada was pulling the final plug out of Pinawa where we have lost close to I, I 00 hi gh-skilled, well trained people. Mr.

Gerrard: Again fo r the Premier: why, when this is an area which has such rapid growth potential, as Nuala Beck and others have pointed out, was this the first export, under his premiership, of jobs and fu ture job potential? Mr. Doer: I think- An Honourable Member: Poor start. Mr. Doer: Well, we can talk about the I,lOO jobs that went fr om Pinawa to Chalk River fr om Manitoba, and we are certainly disappointed. I would certainly want to indicate my disappoint ment at that decision about the loss of scientists here in Manitoba.

We were advised by newspaper articles in Se ptember, bef ore we were sworn in, that the initial decision to transf er employees to Calgary had taken place, the purchase of Mr. Graves' s company, the new Norte! company, would result in the R & D jobs going to Ottawa, the manufacturing jo bs, I

November 29. 1999 LEGIS LATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 43 believe, going to Calgary. I think it is regrettable. *

(1410) I think that this national country, Manitoba included, needs a national vision on high-tech jo bs, including our universities, our community colleges, on the fact that we get less research and devel opment 0n a per capita basis than the province of Quebec, on the fact that more support fr om the fe deral government in R & D is going into certain areas in Canada that already have a cluster of R & D jo bs. It did take place. The minis ter asked fo r a meeting on her day of being sworn in.

The decision had already been made , but the first action she asked of the president, upon her swearing in, was fo r a meeting fo r her and myself with the president. We were told the decision was made even bef ore we were elected. Throne Speech High-Tech Employment Strategy Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Why again fo r the Premier-given this is such an important area fo r him, was there no mention of developing a high-tech, high-wage economy in the throne speech? Has the Premier given up already? We would have expected a plan. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Sp eaker, coming fr om the member fo r River Heights who cut close to $240 million of money out of the budget fo r universities, post-secondary educa tional fac ilities, I do not see that as very much part of a plan either. Mr. Sp eaker, we did say in the Sp eech fr om the Throne that we believe the best economic strategy is an education strategy. We are committed to trying to lower the cost of tuition over time. We think it is important fo r young people to have hope in Manitoba. We are commi tted to doubling the community college spots, which will include , over five years, a strategy on high-tech jobs.

We agree with the member that we need a high-tech strategy fo r Manitoba. There are lots of small businesses that are doing very, very well, but there is a lot more that we can do in government. We have met with the Innovations Council. We have met with the head of the Innovations network. We are going to continue to work with these people to develop those high tech synergies and training. We are going to provide the training of young people to go along with the ideas of business people here in Manitoba. Health Care Facilities Bed Openings Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): My question is fo r the Minister of Health. During the election campaign, Today's NDP promised that they would immed iately reopen a hundred hospital beds and staff them to end hallway medicine within six months. Within two months after their taking of fice, we now hear that a net 18 new beds will be added to the system, 10 of those beds in Brandon- which did not ask fo r them- another fo ur in Thompson, which means a net fo ur new beds in the city of Winnipeg to end hallway medicine. Mr.

Sp eaker , that is a far cry fr om the hundred beds that were promised by Today's NDP during the election campaign. Will the Minister of Health now tell Manitobans that he misled them during the election campaign with that promi se, a promise that he cannot fu lfill? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Sp eaker , I would like to thank the member fo r that particular question, because it is clear fr om the member's own conf usion that she is having real dif ficulty understanding. I under stand, given the dif ficulty that members opposite had in terms of the numbers.

As the member knows and as the members on the other side of the House know, when the government closed over a thousand beds during her reign, they created a terrible situation , a terrible situation that resulted in long line-ups in our hospital hallways. Our commi tment during the campaign was, when we assumed of fice, we would open beds to try to clear the hallways. That was the directive that was sent out last week.

44 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 19 99 I will deal specifi cally with the beds because clearly the member is confused in terms of the numbers. As we indicated in our press conf erence last week, we are going to open a hundred beds, and net we are going to open permanently 138 beds. We are going to try to do what we can, despite the fact that this government treated nurses without respect and laid of f so many nurses. We knew that that would be a problem, and we are working on that problem. We will have fu rther announcements in that regard.

But I am sorry to hear that members opposite failed to note that we are expanding the number of i. V. programs. We are expanding the day surgery fo r cancer patients. We expanded options to patients all across the system. We are expanding home care to deal with the other side of the equation. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417 , answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. The minis ter seems to be wanting to relive the election.

All we have asked is a direct question about what their promises were, and he is still not answering the question. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): A question was asked that was straightforward, and there was a straightforward answer. They just do not like the sound of it. Mr. Speaker: On both points of order, can all members keep their questions and answers reasonably short and deal with the matter that is raised. Thank you. * * * Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Hea lth, indeed, who is conf used?

Is it the Winnipeg Hosp ital Authority and all Manitobans who knew that the 12 0 beds that he announced were already in the plans and would be opened in April of this year once the new personal care home beds came on stream, or is it this Minister of Health who is confused? Who is it? Is he saying that the Winnipeg Health Authority and those Manitobans who knew that these beds were already in the system are wrong or that he is confused around this issue? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, two points, and I will try to be brief to explain it to the member fo r River East.

Firstly, the fo rmer government's plan that was released in the spring talked about a net total of 60 swing beds-60 swing beds; secondly, I checked and I canvassed this very carefully with department of ficials who said there was no fu nding fo r any beds under the fo rmer government. We have remedied that situation. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of Health confirm that 12 0 of those beds that will open as a result of our plan to build new personal care homes will come on stream sometime in April, which is in the new budget year, that those beds will come on stream and that the announcement that he made the other day was an announcement around phantom beds within the system? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the member asked three questions. and I will try to deal with them as asked. I canvassed the department. There was no plan, there was no budget, except fo r the fo rmer Premier's billion-dollar fantasy to find a billion dollars.

There was no comm itment to open any beds by the fo rmer government. Point 2, Mr. Speaker, on assuming of fi ce, we canvassed the system and asked the system: can you come up with a hundred-plus beds or as many beds as necessary to deal with the situation until permanent long-term beds can be fu nded and opened by this government? They came back with the beds that were announced last week. The third point is, Mr. Speaker, dealing with the question that was raised by the member fo r River East, the fo rmer government put out a plan, and they said 60 swing beds, and there was no comm itment and no fun ding.

We came into

November 29, 1999 LEGIS LATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 45 offi ce and said we would fi nd bed s, we would try to staff them, we would do what we could to end the hallway medi cine crisis that ha d been built up after 11 ye ars of neglect, do wnsi zing and cuts by government member s opposite. Mr. Speaker: The question has been answered. *

(1420) Income Assistance Reform Legislation Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): For the last two de cade s we have seen an increase in the number of people on welf are. It was not until 1996 when our government took action and impl emented welf are ref orms that we began to see a de crease in the number of people on we lfare. In fact, since 1996, Mr. Sp eaker, 21,000 people have moved off welfu re and into the di gnity of a jo b.

Can the Minister of Family Se rvices explain why it is that, prior to the election, the new NDP in part supported Bill 40 by bringing fo rward some amend ments that they fe lt would improve it, but now that they are elected, they have scrapped the workf are legislation or, as mumbl ed in committee by the member fo r Thompson (Mr. Ashton), the amen dments were put fo rward fo r public-perception purposes? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Sp eaker, as everyone knows, there are still more people on welf are to day than there were du ring the NDP government of 1988.

Everyone also knows that Bill 40 was a completely redun dant piece of legislation, and if it were so vital and so important, why did this government not proclaim it? Because they simply knew that the business community did not support it and the volunteer community did not support it. That is why it was never proclaimed . It never made sense in the first place. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Sp eaker , could the minister, the one who claims he has never met an able bod ied welf are recipient who do es not want to work, explain why potential savings fr om welf are programs were not built into the Christmas wish list fo rward ed by Tod ay's NDP to Deloitte and Touche fo r the financial review review, not aud it? Mr. Sale: Mr. Sp eaker, it is very clear fr om all of the memos that this is no wish list. The commi tments that the fo rmer government mad e, far above any budget entitlement, far above any resources that were being provided fo r, are very real , as attested to by Deloitte and Touche.

In terms of savings, there have ind ee d been some reductions in the expendi tures, in mostly very short-term reductions, because, although there have been a large number of cases , most of those cases were people who were able to work. They have gone to work. The savings are very small. We are looking fo r permanent bri dges fo r people to make the transition to employme nt that is long term, stable, into goo d jo bs, Mr. Sp eaker, not into short te rm, not into temporary, not to come back on at the first ill wind, but real jo bs fr om real training fo r a real fu ture. That is our commitment. Mr.

Speaker: Time fo r Oral Questions has expired . MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): The provincial government has appointed Paul Chartrand and Wend y Whitecloud as commis sioners of the Aboriginal Justice Implementation Commission. They are assisted by two eld er advisers: Doris Young and Eva McKay. This is excellent news both fo r aboriginal people and nonaboriginal people. The two commissio ners will recommend priority areas fo r action that are practical, obtainable and within provincial ju risd iction.

They do not include the Crimin al Code which is und er fe deral jurisdi ction. The cost of not proceed ing with AJI recommen dations is far higher than acting. That should be obvious to everyone given the staggering failure of the system over the past de cade . The AJI on page I stated that: "The ju stice system has failed Manitoba's aboriginal people on a massive scale. It is not merely that the

46 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 1999 ju stice system has failed aboriginal people, ju stice has also been denied to them ." After almost nine wasted years, Manitoba now has a government that is prepared to m ake much-needed changes to that ju stice system. We should all welcome such changes which make the justice system more community driven. The goals of restorative ju stice and accountability to the community are ones that everyone can agree make common sense. I look fo rward to the work of the commission and wish them well . Th ank you, Mr. Speaker. Income Assistance Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I am very disappointed that all we are seeing from members opposite is the same old NDP with no direction or plan. By moving to strike the workf are bill, the NDP is sending the wrong message to Manitobans. They are telling Manitobans you do not have to work fo r what you receive. This government is also robbing social assistance recipients of their self -reliance and their dignity. How can a person learn to accept responsibility if they are never given responsibility?

We know that it is not easy to break the cycl e of poverty and dependence, but it is imposs ible to break it without motivation, a fe eling of self -worth and encouragement. Our government of f ered a plan that ensured that able-bodied social assistance recipients would have to perform comm unity service work in return fo r the support they receive. I believe that nothing instills more pride in a person than the satisfaction of a job well done. So cial assistance recipients need a hand up not a handout. Today's NDP obviously disagree.

During the last NDP term in of fice, fr om 1981 to 1988, welf are caseloads in Manitoba grew by 170 percent. Nonetheless, the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale) insists that he has never met an able-bodied welf are recipient who does not want to work. I am not sure where he has been living, but we know that fr om time to time some people require more encouragement to get involved in Manitoba's growing workf orce. Mr. Speaker, Bill 40, The Employment and Income Assis tance Amendment Act, of f ers that assistance.

There is a familiar expression: If you give a man a fish , you fe ed him fo r a day; if you teach a man to fish, you fe ed him fo r a lif etime. I think ye sterday's NDP have once again clearly demonstrated which philosophy they accept. Health Care Services-Interlake Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to draw the attention of the Premier (Mr. Do er) and the honourable members to the positive actions of the Minister of Health, Mr. Chom iak, in resolving a health care crisis that threatened the quality and the continuation of health care services in the Interlake earlier this month. Mr.

Speaker, we had a situation in Arborg earlier on where our two doctors, after negotiating unsuccessf ully fo r over seven months were prepared to leave our community and our province fo r Alberta. It was thanks to the intervention of the Health minister that their contractual disputes were resolved and they agreed to stay in our community. I would like to draw the attention of the House to his actions, and I thank him on behalf of the people of the Interlake. *

(1430) Throne Speech-Economic Growth Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, we in this House listened intently last Thursday during the Speech fr om the Throne to hear what plans this new government had to ensure that Manitoba's economy would continue to prosper and grow. Unf ortunately fo r all Manitobans, especially Manitoba's business community, the NDP fe lt that the fu ture of the province's economy was not important enough to merit more than three lines in the speech and in those three lines the NDP fai led to of fe r a plan fo r Manitoba's economic fu ture.

In order fo r this government to provide the public services that all Manitobans need and deserve, our economy must continue to expand. In the last 10 years, government revenues have increased by more than a billion dollars, despite massive cutbacks in fe deral transfer payments. That increase in revenue, due to the expansion and growth of our

November 29, 19 99 LEGISLAT IVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 47 provincial economy, allowed us to invest in important public services. One role of the government is to create an environment in which business can succeed. A strong and growing economy allows government to invest in education, to invest in health care and to invest in our community. Running a deficit this year certainly will not help Manitoba's business community continue to keep Manitoba's economy as strong as it has been over the last fe w years. The Premier (Mr.

Doer) promised during the election campaign to take a balanced approach when dealing with business and labour. Balance, however, does not mean completely ignoring the business community in Mamtoba. It is time fo r this newly elected government to listen and to work with Manitoba's business community to ensure the province's economy remains strong. Thank you. North End Community Ministry Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I rise to recognize the 90th anniversary of North End Communit y Ministry located at 470 Stella A venue in the constituency of Point Douglas.

It was built in 19 09 by the Methodist Church and was originally known as All People's Mission, Stella A venue. The first superintendent was the Reverend J.S. Woodsworth. It was patterned on the settlement house movement which provided recreation and social services as well as opportunities to worship. Part of the United Church of Canada since 19 25, it has continued to provide a variety of charitable activities, community development and work on social ju stice issues, the latter being my portf olio when I was there fr om 19 80 to 19 90. A hymn writer has said that new occasions teach new duties.

Ministry with residents of the north end has changed over the last nine decades. Originally it was ministry to and with immigrants fr om Eastern Europe. Today North End Stella, as it is known, works in partnership with aboriginal people. I look fo rward to helping the United Church celebrate the 90th anniversary of North End Ministry tomorrow and pray that we will provide many more years of service to marginalized people until a society based on ju stice and equality is established fo r all people. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if you could canvass the House to determine if there is consent of the House to deal with an emergency debate and resolution regarding farm prices and, second of all, that the matter of the debate be concluded and a vote be taken before the adjournment tomorrow fo r the next sitting. Mr. Speaker: Does the Government House Leader have leave to move a motion respecting agriculture, and fo r the Speaker to interrupt the proceedings to put all questions?

Does the Government House Leader have agreement to set aside the regular business of the House to consider a motion on the farm crisis, to bring the debate on the motion to a vote bef ore the normal adjo urnment hour tomorrow? Is there unanimous consent? Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House agree with what the honourable minis ter is bringing fo rward at this time, but the only thing I would like to say is that we will have the regular 40-minute time limit on the speeches. Mr. Speaker: Agreed? [agreed] GOVERNMENT MOTION Manitoba Farm Crisis Hon.

Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard), that

WHEREAS Manitoba's total net farm income is proje cted by Agriculture and Agri Food Canada to drop by at least $287 million below the previous five-year average; and

WHEREAS low commodity prices, caused by export subsidies in the United States and the European economic community, have made it dif ficult fo r our producers to make a living on the farm; and

48 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 1999

WHEREAS Canadian farmers only receive 9 percent subsidy on wheat compared to 38 percent received by American farmers and 56 percent received by European farmers; and

WHEREAS the loss of national supports over the past fe w years has cost Manitoba farmers $350 million each year; and

WHEREAS the cancellation of the Crow rate subsidy alone has caused transportation costs of Manitoba farmers to triple; and

WHEREAS our producers are some of the most efficie nt and technically up to date in the world; and

WHEREAS the cnsts facing Manitoba's agricultural producers will continue to have an ef fe ct on the entire Manitoba economy, including comm unities, businesses and services which rely on a healthy farm economy; and

WHEREAS a Manitoba delegation consisting of representatives fr om producer organizations and elected representatives of all three political parties met with the fe deral cabinet minis ters and made a joi nt request fo r an immediate $300 million bridge fu nding; and

WHEREAS this request has not b een satisfied; THEREFORE BE IT RESOLV ED that the Legislative Assembly continue to work in a nonpartisan way to make the fe deral government aware of our se rious farm crisis and the urgent need fo r fe deral government action; and BE IT FURTHER RESOL VED that the Legislative Ass embly strongly urge the fe deral government to take immed iate action and grant our request fo r $300 million fo r Manitoba's farm families. Motion presented. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, I want to express my gratitude for all members of the House today to agree to set aside the business of the House to deal with a very important matter. Mr. Speaker, we have been dealing with this matter since we have taken government in recogmzmg that the farming economy of Manitoba is very important not only to the farmers but to the economy of the whole province, and the situation that has arisen is causing a serious problem not only fo r our farmers but farm communities. We must get the fe deral government to recognize that they have a responsibility in this matter.

It was the fe deral government that made the changes that resulted in many of these supports being taken away fr om the farming community, and it simply is not working. It simply is not working fo r producers. We have to get the fe deral government to recognize what is happening here. Certainly, when yo u see the net income of producers dropping to levels that were not heard of since the thirties, when you see the prices of grain declining substantially while input costs increase, you know that our producers cannot continue. Mr.

Speaker, I had the opportunity over the last summer to talk to people in the southwest part of the province, who are suf f ering not only because of low commodity prices but because of the flooding problems and the heavy rainfall that they have had in that area, and we continue to address that and we continue to address that issue.

We certainly want the fe deral government to recognize that there is an issue in that area that must be addressed, ju st as the fe deral government recognized that there was an issue in the Red River Valley, and they were prepared to put support in fo r the producers in that area of the province. They must recognize their responsibility in the crisis in the southwestern part of the province.

It is unf ortunate that that issue has not been addressed to date by the fe deral government, but I want members across the way to know and I want Manitobans to know, particularly the farming community, that we have not given up on that issue. We continue to pressure the fe deral government to recognize their responsibilities, and hopef ully we will get the kind of support that we need. Mr.

Speaker, when you look at the supports that other communities are getting, the support that the American commu nity and the European comm unity are getting, it is unbelievable that the fe deral government would expect our producers to compete in that environment. Just on one commodity, if you look at wheat where, in

November 29, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 49 Canada, our producers receive a support of nine cents on the dollar; in the United States, it is 38 cents on the dollar, and that is probably a little higher right now because the fe deral government in the U.S. just put in additional money. In fact, the money fo r North Dakota was around $200 million, which was announced about the same time that our fe deral government announced the $170 million over two years fo r all of Canada through AIDA.

So you can see that there is a tremendous amount of support on the part of the fe deral treasuries to support farming communities in other countries, in the United States. In Europe, it is as high as 56 cents on the dollar fo r wheat. Again, if countries want to support their producers to grow grain fo r their domestic market, that is one issue. But when they start to put subsidized grains into the international market at that level, it is very, very dif fi cult fo r our producers to compete in that environment, and they should not have to without fe deral government support. *

(1440) Mr. Spea ker, fr om the time that we took office, we recognized this as a serious problem. We called on the fe deral Minister of Agriculture to recognize this as an issue and asked them to look at the crisis in southwestern Manitoba. We then led a delegation jointly with Saskatchewan to have producers and business people go to Ottawa to raise this case with the fe deral government.

I want to tell you that I was very impressed with the delegation and Manitoba producers on how well they stated their case to the fe deral government, whether it was the Brandon Chamber of Commerce where Lori Dangerfield stated the case of the impacts on the city of Brandon of the declining rural economy, or whether it was Maxine Routledge who spoke on behalf of the Women's Institute and talked about the pressures on fam ilies, that fam ilies are fe eling because of the financial crisis that is in the community.

But our delegation stated the case very well, and I was hopeful that we would by this time have a more positive answer fr om the fe deral government on the issue. The fe deral government has announced additional money for AIDA. I look at the comments that have been made by many producers, and certainly AIDA is not the answer. When I listened and looked back at the announcements that AIDA got, quite fr ankly, I think it was a good publicity campaign fo r the fe deral government to be able to say that they were supporting farmers and putting a lot of money into the West, but in reality the program has not worked.

In fact, when we were in Ottawa, one of the producers told the fe deral government's agriculture comm ittee that AIDA was a fo ur-letter word that was not accepted and was considered a swear word in western Canada, and they ju st thought it was a terrible program. In fact, it has not been working, because if you talk to the people who are applying fo r the program, people who are in most need of money, they are not getting it. It is not flowing to the people who most need it, and we have to look at designing a much better program. Certainly, those are negotiations that are going to be taking place.

We should have had a long-term safety net program in place by now. We do not have that program. We cannot go fr om ad hoc program to ad hoc program to address the farming crisis. So those are things that have to be done. Certainly, world subsidies have to be reduced. But until such time as world subsidies are reduced, our fe deral government has to recognize that they were part of creating this problem and they have a responsibi lity to address it. We, as government, are not prepared to let our farmers go down.

We are not prepared to see our small communities suf fe r and lose services in rural areas, and we are going to continue to pressure the fe deral government to be sure that they address this issue. We had, Mr. Speaker, last week a House of Commons comm ittee on finance that was in Regina to hear what the concerns are. Two members of our delegation went to Regina. That was Andy Baker and Maxine Routledge who went to Regina to again state our case and outline how severe the situation is in Manitoba.

As I say, they indicated in their presentation that Manitoba producers are facing a severe farm income situation well beyond what has been

50 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBT S OF MANITOBA November 29, 1999 experienced in decades, and it must be addressed. Mr. Speaker, I hope that all members across the way realize that it is important that we have all parties standing together on this issue. We should not be looking at ways to divide one another on this issue or try to take credit fo r numbers that the members of the opposition have, that they have more rural representatives.

What we have to do is stand together on this issue and say we are going to fight fo r Manitoba farmers; we are going to ensure that we do not let the fe deral government of f the hook because it was the fe deral government that did create this problem. Let us look at what caused the problem. The fe deral government wanted to meet its comm itments to its world trade requirements and reduce subsidies. So the fe deral government ended the Crow benefit. I remember members across the way indicating that the elimination of the Crow was going to be very good. We were going to see all this value-added.

Certainly it will happen, but now in the short term our farming community and our rural communities are in a real crisis. The removal of that subsidy could not happen in the way that it did while other countries continue to subsidize. We can see that it is not working, so we need some short-term bridge financing. We need bridge financing to get through this crisis and we need long-term safety net solutions, is what we need. We do not have those right now. We do not have them. We have to work on them.

That is why it is very important that we all stand together and insist that the fe deral government recognize their responsibility in this matter. From there we have to work towards long-term safety net programs, Mr. Speaker, which we do not have either. Those are in negotiations. Hopefully, we will have them. Certainly as we go into the next round of world trade talks, this is a very imp ortant issue. What are other countries going to do? Are other countries going to reduce their subsidies or is Canada going to be at the short end of the stick and have no supports ?

That again is a very important topic of discussion over the next little while. We have to look at the economic impact of this crisis and the impact not only on the farm and on the rural community, but the impact on all of Manitoba. We know that one in eight jobs in Manitoba is rela ted to agriculture. That is pretty significant. However, I do not believe there is enough recognition on urban residents in recognizing how important the agriculture economy is.

Very soon we are going to see the impacts of that as we see farm machinery dealerships having a real difficult time; manuf acturing businesses who produce fo r the farming community not being able to sell their equipme nt. That ef fe ct will certainly move down the line and more people are going to fe el the impact, but the impact will be fe lt much more quickly in our smaller communities. There is a very serious concern with the loss of services and loss of skilled labour in rural communities. When you look at it, Mr.

Speaker, when one or two farm fam ilies go out of business, certainly the land is going to be farmed. Somebody is going to farm it, but is the answer larger farms? My vision is not to see larger farms; it is to see more fam ilies that want to live in rural Manitoba have the ability to live in rural Manitoba and make a living there. But what people in rural Manitoba are worried about, particularly this year, and I will ref er to the southwest part of the province again where there was no crop. [interje ction] Pardon me, the member fo r Russell (Mr. Derkach) is correcting me.

The flooding did take place in the southwest part of the province, but the flooding and the high water problems stretched far beyond. They stretched into the Neepawa-Minnedosa area, the Grand view area. Certainly there was even some flooding in the Swan River area where people were not able to put their crop in. The impacts on those businesses are there. Farmers are not buying equipment; farmers are not doing any repairs to their equipment. The service sector is starti1ig to lay off people, in particular mechanics.

If these mechanics leave the area, find jobs somewhere else, how are we going to attract them back to rural Manitoba? That puts additional pressure on the com munities. Soon you are having farmers having to drive farther fo r repairs. Pretty soon there are not enough children there to have a school

November 29, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 51 viable, and certainly health care becomes an issue. All of these have to be addressed. We do not want to see our rural communities facing those kinds of challenges. That is why it is very important that we put in place a plan on how we can have people living in rural Manitoba and do so with assurances that they have supports there. *

(1450) One of the most important ways to do that is to have our fe deral government recognize that they have a responsibility in this whole issue of putting some supports into the farm community until such time as farmers can earn their income fr om the marketplace, because I can assure you that every farmer, every farm family , would pref er to earn their money fr om the marketplace. They are very good and effi cient farmers, and they can do that, but at the present time the playing field is not level. The level of supports fr om other countries is driving our prices down and causing very serious problems.

There are things that have to be done. In the short term, we have to get the fe deral government to address this. Mr. Conrad Santos, De puty Speaker, in the Chair I have to say that when we were in Ottawa, I was very disappointed in Minister Vancliefs attitude toward us, when he came to the meetings and said our numbers were wrong and went to the media saying that our numbers were wrong when in fact we were using his department's numbers.

It was unf ortunate that the fe deral government tried to play those games because at the end of the day the numbers, where we were right asking fo r $300 mill ion, were very reasonable numbers and ones that we could justify very easily. So that was certainly a disappointment on the part of the fe deral government to try to imply when we were there and to discredit people by saying that we did not have our facts right when in fact we did. So, Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, the crisis in Manitoba is very real. There is a very real shortf all in the income of producers.

We would hope that this is going to tum around very quickly and that we will have a levelling of f of subsidies fr om other countries. I am not very hopef ul that that levelling of f is going to take place very quickly. If you just read the articles that were in this week's paper as we prepare fo r the world trade talks, the European community has indicated that they do not even want the subject of agriculture subsidies put on the table. So there is some indication to you and to all of us here that there is not going to be very much movement on subsidies.

If that movement on subsidies is not there, then we are going to have to address this. I want to tell the members opposite that I think that we should have been addressing this issue much sooner. I recall in the last session where we suggested to the government that we put together an all-party delegation. The member fo r Interlake will recall when we talked about that, when we suggested, let us put together an all-party delegation, let us lobby Ottawa on the crisis in the southwest part of the province, let us start to address these issues, the fo rmer government refused to do that.

They did not want to recognize how serious the situation was. It was our government that took the step to pull together people, to pull together the business commun ity, the farming commun ity, and take the issue to Ottawa to say that we-[interje ction] It is interesting that the member across the way should say that we are not getting anywhere. In fact, I think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the member across the way should-[interje ction] Certainly Manitobans did pay out the money to help farmers. The members opposite are hanging their hats on the fact that they put out $50 an acre fo r farmers who could not seed.

We said that that had to be paid out. That was the support that had to be there fo r producers, but that is the government opposite. The then Cons ervative government ref used to take hold of the issue that the fe deral government had a responsibility. It is the government opposite. When the government was changing the Crow bene fit, when the government was changing the Crow package, it was members across the way who said, oh, this is going to be good fo r rural Manitoba, this is going to be good. We are going to have all this value-added here and everything is going to be wonderf ul.

52 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 1999 Well, I can tell you, farmers are suffering. This government has to take some responsibility for not standing up for producers when the federal government moved to triple the trans portation costs for producers. They certainly have to stand up for that. Certainly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the members opposite should think twice about their position on the whole issue of the Kruger report and the position they took on that issue, which is going to, if not addressed properly, cause problems for our producers as well.

This government, these members across the way, when they were in government sometimes did not think far enough ahead about the impacts of some of these changes was going to have on the farm community. Our farming business is very important to the economy of this province. There are a lot of jobs. There are opportunities for value added in this province. There is no doubt about that. Because of the changes to the Crow, we are going to see changes in what we produce in this province. We will. The livestock production is going to increase, and we are going to have to look at other ways to improve the economy.

What we have to look at is how we are going to support our farmers in the short term. That is why we have to continue in this effort to get this federal government to recognize that in the short term there has to be some support. In the short term there has to be, and then we have to, along with looking at how we can diversify the rural economy, we have to put in place safety net programs, long-term safety net programs certainly. * (1 500) The former minister talks about the $50-an acre payment.

I have to tell him that had we had the $50 -an-acre unseeded acreage payment that he had the opportunity to negotiate previously, we would not have had to put an ad hoc program in. That is certainly a program that has to be put in place. The unseeded acreage, my under standing is that the previous government had the opportunity to negotiate that as part of crop insurance. It was their decision not to include it as part of crop insurance. Had there been that program, we would not have had to have ad hoc programs, but certainly we are going to work towards having that.

I understand that the minister, in fact, consulted with some groups in the province and they encouraged him not to bother with the unseeded acreage payments. [interjection] The member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) continues to say that is a rumour. In fact, I think that if he checked back a little bit, that proposal did go to the farm organization, to Keystone Agricultural Producers. In certain parts of the province, they discouraged the then Minister of Agriculture from signing up for the unseeded acreage payment. Had we had that, we would not have some of the problems right now.

We are going to work to correct that. We are going to work to correct that, and we are going to work towards a better long-term safety net program that we have. Now I know that is not going to be an easy situation, because other provinces have different agendas than we have here. That will certainly be a challenge, but I hope that we can work to ensure it. I hope the members across the way will support us in this, as we would certainly support any effort. We have called on the previous government to ensure that we had a long-term safety net program for producers rather than ad hoc programs.

I hope that we would have the same support from members across the way as we begin these negotiations. There are many challenges against it in the farming community. So I hope that the members opposite will continue to support us and that we will have a united effort to get the federal government to recognize that there is a very serious crisis in rural Manitoba. Our farming community is suf fering, but also the business community is suf fering. There are social problems that are as a result of this. We have to recognize that when we have a healthy farming economy, we have a healthy rural economy.

When we have a healthy rural economy, it spins off to the province as well because agriculture is one of the key industries of this province. So I again want to say that I think that it is very important that we address this issue in a nonpartisan way, continue to lobby the federal government in our efforts to get them to recognize that there is a farm crisis.

November 29, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 53 Certainly, it is our hope that we can convince Mr. Vanclief that his tough-love attitude towards the farming communi ty is not the answer, because we are not in support of his comments where he says, well, 35 percent of the farming population is not aff ected and we should ju st help them get out of farm ing. That to me is not a solution. We want to urge the fe deral government to look at their surpluses because certainly the fe deral government has a surplus, a surplus that I believe has been built up on the backs of western Canada.

Because if you look at the amount of money that the fe deral government has saved by reducing its agriculture budget, the amount of money that they have saved when they reduced the transportation support, that has helped build up the fe deral government's surplus. It is time fo r the fe deral government to look at western Canada. They indicated they were looking fo r suggestions on how they could spend this surplus. Well, we have an answer fo r them. One of the ways that they can spend their surplus is put in a support program that will help western Canadians.

We have to look at how we can get that money to those who need it the most. Certainly, there are sectors of the agriculture industry that fo r the time being are doing well. The cattle industry is doing well; the grain industry is not doing well. An Honourable Member: How are the hogs? Ms. Wowchuk: The member asks how the hogs are doing. I hope that the price of hogs will come up a little more, because hog producers are on the margin line where they are on the verge of making some money.

I hope that return will continue so that we will not have to support them, but the changes that the previous government made have certainly caused some concern fo r some producers. Small operators are the ones that are talking about the changes that are concerned, and it is an issue that we will be talking about to hog producers. Certainly, we will give hog producers the opportunity to have a say in what is going on. [interje ction] We will give them a say, we will give them a say.

But I listened to the member across the way and I would hope that he would also support this ef fo rt that we are making to get the fe deral government to recognize their responsibility because certainly people in his part of the province are the ones that are suf f ering We just attended the AMM conf erence and I want to say that the support that we got from AMM was very gratif ying. They appreciated the work we were doing. In fact, Mr. Deputy Speaker, municipalities are passing resolutions to support this eff ort fo r support in the farm crisis.

There is a letter-writing campaign that is beginning to send a message to the Prime Minister that he has to recognize this. There have been meetings held across the province. It is a letter-writing campaign where people tell us about their own personal stories. People tell us about how dif ficult it is going to be fo r them. People tell us about losing their equipment. People tell us about not being able to pay their taxes. If people are not able to pay their taxes, that is going to have an impact on the munic ipalities. For that reason, I think that it is very impor tant.

I talked about the southwest part of the province, but I also want to emphasize the calls we are getting are not only fr om the south western part of the province. It is right across the province. I look at people who have called fr om Grandview, Roblin and Ste. Rose, and certainly the Swan River area, people who are worried about losing their land. People are worried how they are going to fe ed their fam ilies this winter. It is a very, very serious situation.

Although the fe deral government tries to hang their hat on AIDA, that in reality is a false hope and an excuse fo r the fe deral government because that program is not working. It is not getting the money to those people that need it. Particularly in the grain industry, there is a problem. Because of the decline in grain prices, they are not able to access the money and as someone across the way just said, the program is really quite a disaster. It has helped the hog producers, there is no doubt.

The hog producers have benefited fr om the AIDA program, and if you look at it, it would help those producers because when those producers took a cut in price, it was a short-term decline and they were able to take advantage of the program. We have to get our fe deral Libera l M.P.s as well to recognize this issue. When we were in

54 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 1 999 Ottawa, we had the opportunity to meet with those M.P.s and discuss it with them. We also hope that we can convince the lead minister for Manitoba, Mr. Axworthy, to recognize that this is a very serious issue and that we have to address this crisis. I think by working together and getting members fr om all parties, hopefully people will use their influence on the people that they know in the fe deral government to ensure that this issue is addressed.

There are going to be comm ittee hearings here in Manitoba over the next while and I hope that people will get their constituents to attend those meetings and outline again to the fe deral government how serious this is. I wish that the members across the way, as I said, had taken a stronger position on this issue earlier and addressed it, but we have the opportunity now to work together. I hope that we can continue this, to stand together to ensure that in fact the fe deral government will recognize that subsidies around the world are much higher than Canadians, and that cannot continue.

I hope that the fe deral government will recognize that a drop in income, $287 million below the five-year average, is unacceptable. We have very highly skilled producers. Our producers are not afraid to take on new technology and take on new challenges. They can take on any producers in the world in producing a high quality crop, but they have to have a level playing field. Until such time as that playing field is levelled of f, we have to have support fr om our fe deral government. That is why it is important that we get the bridge financing that we have asked fo r to help farmers through this crisis.

The distribution of that money is an issue that can be easily resolved. It is first of all getting the fe deral government to make a commitment that they recognize this as a serious problem, and then getting them to recognize that they have a responsibility here. They have a responsibility because they are the ones who reduced the support and who have been balancing their budgets and building their surpluses on the backs of western Canada. * (1510 ) Their reduction in support to the farming commu nity, particularly through transportation costs, is what has created a good portion of this problem.

The lack of a long-term safety net program is another issue that we have to address, but in the meantime let us look at this and stand together to do whatever it is we have to do to get the fe deral government to recognize that they have a responsibility. When the United States got their payment of I believe around $200 million fo r North Dakota, it was not the Governor of North Dakota that signed the check, it was Bill Clinton that signed the check. In the European communities, it is not the provinces, it is the states that are signing the check.

Here in Manitoba, it is time fo r Jean Chretien, the Prime Minister- An Honourable Member: And Paul. Ms. Wowchuk: And Paul Martin, the Finance minis ter, certainly-it is time fo r those people to recognize that they have a responsibil ity to western Canada. There is a quality of lif e, there is a culture in western Canada that we are not prepared to give up on. Western Canada plays a very important

part in the economy. When you look back at history, it is the grain of western Canada that has put Canada onto the world market, and it is our high quality grain that has given us a lot of the credibility that we have right now in the world market. Because of changes made by the fe deral government. this part of the country is suf f ering. That is not acceptable. We have to ensure that fam ilies who want to farm, fam ilies who want to continue to make a living in a very important industry, will have that opportunity.

We do not want to see smaller farms gobbled up by larger farms, because, as I say, somebody is going to farm that land. It will be farmed, but what will happen to the culture of the small communities and to the services in the rural communities if we have fe wer and fe wer people there? One of my other concerns is, if people go out of farming, where are they going to go? Farmers are very aggressive people. Right now

November 29, 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 55 they are working for nothing, in many cases, just to keep in the business. If they get out of farming, they are going to find another job. If they move into the cities, they will find another job, even if it is a minimum wage job. If they have to, they will take two jobs. But what is that going to do to somE'hody else? Not everybody is happy moving into the city. There are those people who live in rural communities who are happy living in rural communities and do a good job.

They do a good job of producing high quality food, and they are part of a rural way of lif e. They are part of that infrastructure of rural Manitoba and western Canada. We are not prepared to give up on those people. We want to stand up for them so that those people who want to farm, those people who want to raise their children in rural Manitoba, can continue to do it. Part of our campaign should also be how we get urban people to recognize the importance of agriculture to this economy. I think that is something that we as rural people have failed on. We sometimes do not boast about what we do.

We do our work, we produce our food, we sell our food, and somehow we have to find a way to ensure that rural Manitobans and urban Manitobans recognize the value of the high quality food that we produce and that it is a very important part of the economy. That is a challenge for us. How do we get urban Manitobans and cities to support us as well? Certainly, we have the support of the city of Brandon, because Brandon recognizes that agriculture is an important part of their economy. I think Brandon is suffering a little bit this year. I heard the discussion about the sale of cars decreasing in Brandon.

Certainly the sale of cars is decreasing because farmers are not coming into town to buy those vehicles. We have to figure out a way to get that message out to Winnipeg, to get more urban support for the farming community and more recognition of how important we are. That is a challenge for us as government, that is a challenge for us as rural people, to get our message out about what role we play in the economy of this province. The province does not end at Winnipeg. The province includes rural Manitoba and northern Manitoba.

I think when there is a crisis such as this we have to get the support of all Manitobans on it. So in closing I would just like to say that I think that this is an excellent opportunity. I thank all members of the House for setting aside the ordinary business of the day to talk about what I believe is a real emergency and one that has to be addressed provincially but also addressed federally.

I hope that we can continue in an all party fashion to get the federal government to recognize their responsibility and ensure that that $300 million that we are asking for comes to this province so that we can have the bridge financing in place so that our farming community can continue to produce this high quality food that we do until such time as we come onto a level playing field and our producers can compete equally with producers around the world. Thank you. Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I rise in this Chamber to second this important resolution to request additional aid from Ottawa for our farmers at a time of great difficulty. An Honourable Member: Where were you when we needed you, Jon? Mr. Gerrard: I have been pulling for farmers for quite some time, Harry. As this is the first formal speech in this Chamber, I want to express my appreciation to the people of River Heights who elected me to this Legislature and thank them for their support.

I also want to point out to the others in the Chamber that there are many in River Heights who are very concerned about farmers. I think that this in fact is true of many in Winnipeg, that people throughout Manitoba are concerned about this urgent situation. I would like to thank the House leaders for coming to an agreement on where I am sitting in the Chamber. I must admit it is very cozy. It is clear that both parties want to keep a close eye on me, with the member for Southdale (Mr. Reimer) looking over one shoulder and the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) on the other shoulder.

56 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 19 99 The farm crisis strikes to the heart of who we are as Manitobans. The history of farming in this province goes back to the Selki rk settlers in the early 18 00s. A large proportion of those who came as imm igrants to this province in the early part of this century and the latter part of last century came because of the opportunities in farming, and they have made an incredible contribution to the rural economy and indeed the whole economy of Manitoba.

Though it is imperative now that we seek to diversify our Manitoba economy, agriculture will remain one of our rootstocks and it is vital that we never fo rget that. It was fo r that reason that I joined the all-party delegation some short while ago to go to Ottawa to press the Govern ment of Canada fo r additional support fo r farmers in Manitoba. It is urgent. It is a pressing need, and it is fo r this reason that I am seconding this resolution today. There are Manitoba farmers who are in dire need of help. I have visited farms.

I have spoken to farmers fr om many parts of Manitoba over the last little while, and since the spring of this year indeed I have spent quite a number of days in southwestern Manitoba, indeed standing in boots in the mud in the fields looking in dismay at the weeds and the other problems that are there. There is a lot of hurt in the farm community. There is a lot of hurt in many rural communities which depend on agriculture and on the farm communities. But it is also true, as the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) has indicated, that there are some farmers who are doing well. The prices fo r cattle are good.

Prices fo r table potatoes indeed have gone up some 30 percent this year, and these are examples. Some yields have been very good.

I think it is important that we recognize that the crisis has not hit all farmers equally, and as the minis ter has pointed out, that we seek in making this request to Ottawa to find ways to deliver it to those farmers who are in real need and to those communities who are in real need, where we can make a dif f erence. * (1 520) I think it is impor tant to note that over the last little while there are programs like those run by the Manitoba Rural Adaptation Council which have been very important in allowing some farmers to be very innovative in finding new solutions in this environment where we stand at the moment which is dif ficult times fo r agriculture, but these new solutions, even though some are being creative in finding ways to make a living on the farm, that there are still large numbers of Manitoba farmers who are having very dif ficult times, some because of the flood and wet weather earlier this year but many because of the low commodity prices fo r wheat and canota and oats and barley.

This fu ndamentally is one of the major problems, one of the major problems, that world prices are low and that other countries, notably Europe and the United States, are subsidizing to an inordinate extent, the root cause of much of this problem. I think it is important to recognize the positive contribution that was made by the previous government in providing farmers with unseeded acres this spring with a payment of $50 an acre.

I would like to complime nt the members of the then government, including the now Leader of the Opposition, fo r making this positive contribution to farmers who were aff ected by the flood and the wet weather. I think it is also important to recognize that AIDA has been a help to some farmers. AIDA has, in fact. contributed and helped some farmers who have had a drastic drop in their income in doing quite well, but AIDA clearly is not sufficient.

AIDA does not help those who have had several poor years in a row. and it is in this context and the context of the low prices fo r wheat and barley and canota and other commodity crops that I come out supporting this resolution. My obje ctive in supporting this resolution is to help farmers and to help rural communities in Manitoba, communities which have suf fered fr om a lo<><> in population, rural communities which are struggling because there has been an outmigration of people fr om their communities.

Our obje ctive must be to get dollars to the farmers who need it, must be to sustain those rural communities which are hurting and losing people. Our obje ctive must be to help young

November 29. 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 57 farmers, fo r they are the fut ure, as well as to help farmers with a smaller land base, if we are going to arrest rural depopulation, because in helping farmers to do better on a smaller land base we in fact can increase the population of smaller communities and allow fo r more vital rural communities. I support this resolution because it is an important step.

We need to get the financial support, but at the same time I think it is very important that we in Manitoba realize that in making this request we have to indicate as well to Ottawa some details of what our business plan is, precisely how we would propose to spend the $300 million, hoping that we are able to receive it fr om Ottawa. Accountability 1s clearly important, and a good business plan fo r spending that money fo r farmers is important. It is important to spend wisely. It is important if we are going to make the case and be successful in getting the money fr om Ottawa.

I will of fe r in my remarks some ideas, and I hope that others who speak will also make suggestions, will also provide their concepts of what should be in that business plan that we present to Ottawa in making this request fo r $300 million because all of us want to be responsible. We want to spend wisely. We want to get the money to where it really is going to do the most good. Now I know that there are many in the farm community who would like to see an acreage payment of $20 an acre fo r every farmer in Manitoba. That, of course, has been the tradition of acreage payments and this kind of support.

But as I have said, the hurt is not shared equitably at the momen t, and when I talk to those in the farm community, there are many indeed who argue against an acreage payment. They say does a farm er with 5,000 acres who had a good year and has done well this year need a government cheque fo r $100,000 on top of doing well now? You know, these kinds of payments in the past have been used by farmers to buy the farms of their less affluent neighbours and in this way contribute to rural depopulation. It is a sad fact of lif e, an unfortunate fact.

As Conway, who has looked at this carefully, indicated in the Free Press on November 8, cash payments to all farmers on an acreage basis are an unwise use of public funds. So indeed we need to look fu rther. We need to develop a business plan, and we need to look at the impact of that business plan on rural depopulation and on farmers. I would like to point out an example of rural depopulation.

The constituency of Arthur Virden, fr om 19 88 to 19 98, lost some 10 percent of its population during the period when the fo rmer member was in the Conservative government and was, fo r much of that time, the minis ter of Indus try, Trade and Tourism, the minis ter fo r Economic Development fo r the province. The fo rmer minister did very well at his job. So well, as I have indicated, that his own constituency lost some 10 percent of its people. This was not economic development in the way that I would like to see it fo r rural Manitoba.

Indeed this change, this decrease in population of some 10 percent in Arthur-Virden, it is notable, occurred during a period of high farm subsidies, so that high farm subsidies in and of themselves, if not given wisely, are not enough to stabilize and increase-which is what we want to do-rural populations. We need to make sure we have ef f ective plans fo r farmers and fo r rural communities. In this fr amework, I think we need to look at other options.

A considerable number of the farmers to whom I have talked have urged the provision of support to those with a smaller land base, fo r we need to help such farmers make a reasonable living and help keep our communities viable. Others have emphasized support fo r young farmers. Farmers I have talked to have put fo rward three alternative options. One, a conservation reserve program based on one in the United States has been promoted by Ian Wishart, a farmer in the Portage area.

Under such a program, a farmer could receive, fo r example, $30 an acre fo r up to 20 percent of their farm land to put the land into grassland or pasture. In the United States, such a program has been very ef f ective in allowing farmers to take a portion of their land, usually the most marginal and unproductive land, out of grain and oilseed production and into pasture or grass. Delivery, fo r example, of such dollars bef ore seeding in the spring could provide important

58 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 19 99 cash fo r farmers to enable them to put crops on the remaining land. This would be one alternative. * (1 530 ) Others have suggested a western farm transition program which might be modelled on the support provided by groups like the Manitoba Rural Adaptation Council, helping farmers based on need, on a business plan to adjust the farming approach to a sustainable approach, given the dif ficult circums tances that we are in. This has the advantage perhaps of using the ju dgment of peers, other farmers in awarding financial support where it is really needed.

It could be targeted to assist young farmers, fo r many young farmers are having a particularly difficult time. They often have high mortgage levels, yet those young farmers are really our fu ture, the fu ture fo r Manitoba, and they need to be helped. A third option that has been presented to me as I have talked to farmers around the province is a gap support initiative for farmers in dif ficulty who are missed by AIDA. Farmers who are most aff ected by the current crisis are often those who have had several poor years, so that the AIDA program does not help much.

Under the gap support program proposed by Allan Chambers, a farmer in the Ames area of Manitoba, the gap coverage would provide, as it were, something equivalent to a minimum net income fo r farmers and ensure critical support to those who are having the most difficult time of all. As well, I suggest, as looking seriously at the business plan, at how we might best expend $300 million to help farmers, if the fe deral government would make it available as indeed it should, there are some other items that need attention. The minis ter has already alluded to the cost-sharing of the existing programs of $50 an acre.

This should be sewn up, and we should have fe deral support coming in to work with the provincial support which has already been fo rmalized. I think it is also notable that it is unaccept able that farmers in southwestern Manitoba are still treated at this time by both provincial and fe deral governments less well than farmers aff ected in the '97 Red River flood. There were many who had expensive chemicals and fe rtilizers washed away in the '97 flood as a result of the flood, chemicals that they had applied the fall before, and there was compensation provided.

There needs to be similar compensation provided fo r those who were so aff ected in the 19 99 flood and wet weather conditions in Manitoba. As well, support should be provided fo r businesses in communities like Melita. I was at the farm rally in Melita and spoke strongly in support of farmers. Gary Doer, the Premier, was there, not yet Premier at that time, but when he was there, he spoke about providing such help to the businesses in aff ected communities if he were in government. Now it is time fo r the NDP to produce. I would note that there are some additional ways that we can stand up fo r farmers.

You know, it is time to get serious in tackling this problem of subsidies by Europe and the United States. The United States has taken us to court, as it were, a number of times over the Canadian Wheat Board. It is time fo r us to look at particular instances where the United States or Europe in fact are causing problems and may in fact be breaking trade rules. In Al tona most days this fall U.S. canola trucks have lined up to deliver canola in Canada.

U.S. farmers, thanks to their subsidy, eff ectively receive, I am told, about $7.50 a bushel fo r canola, whik Canadian farmers delivering to the same site, the same place, receive only a little more than $5 a bushel. It is time fo r the fe deral government to fo rcef ully take up the charge, to take up and take the United States to task fo r the sort of subsidies that they are creating which are making or giving an unf air playing field. As well as reductions in European and U.S. subsidies, we need to improve global fo od security.

You know, the real root of the subsidy war is the desire of nations fo r fo od self suf fi ciency. With incrt:'ased use of ju st-in-time delivery systems, global fo od reserves are in fact low by many historic times and levels. It is time, perhaps, to look at creating a global fo od

November 29, 19 99 LEGISLATI VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 59 reserve, which would ensure food supplies globally in the event of a major disaster on a global extent. Such a strategic reserve in food and grain could in fact dampen price fluctuations, as has occurred with the oil stockpile created by the U.S. in the 19 70s. There is another fight that we must prepare for, and it was in the news this morning, out of the Kruger review process. There is indeed an opportunity to get a better deal for farmers from the railways. But, and it is a big but, there is going to be a big fight if we are going to get that better deal.

I support those who are working to get that deal, our members of Parliament, Reg Alcock and Lloyd Axworthy. The possibility of saving $250 million a year for farmers is not to be sneezed at. We should be working hard and committed to getting a much better deal from the railways. There are many other jurisdictions which have moved to open running rights on railways, for example, to ensure real competition. This is one of the things that could give us significant help and we need to be fighting for to lower transport costs.

Westerners are going to have to get together and work hard together to get a better deal for farmers from the railway. We must not underestimate the forces that are lined up against us, the railway interests, many eastern interests among them. It is also important that with the end of the Crow rate and the WGT A that we still are entitled to a better deal than we have now. We need to work hard for that better deal to help our farmers. It is a fight that we must work hard for, and it is one more cause that we need to undertake to help farmers in Manitoba and indeed throughout western Canada.

In talking today, I think it is important to put on the table the story of another country faced with a similar challenge to what we have in Manitoba today, and this was more than a hundred years ago in the country of the Netherlands. Desperate farmers at that point approached their government for traditional subsidies to support the existing forms of agricultural practices as they were then occurring.

The then government of the Netherlands in its wisdom said no to traditional- type subsidies but said yes to vigorous support to farmers to adapt to the changing environments through the support of research and other adaptation programs. The result, interestingly enough, is that today the Netherlands has agricultural and agri food exports which are more than three times greater in dollar value than the agricultural and agri-food exports of all of Canada.

It is rather an incredible story, almost unbelievable that the Netherlands, with a tiny land base only a fraction of the arable land of Manitoba, could have achieved agricultural and agri-food exports which are far greater than all of Canada.

We need to learn from such stories to facilitate adaptation to a higher-value agricultural eco nomy, an economy where farmers on smaller acreages can survive and prosper and an economy where rural communities can grow, an economy where rural communities, instead of shrinking, can be at the forefront of the growth of the whole province and the whole country. * (1 540) We need at this time, when there is real need to work together, to think of farmers first. The federal government needs to change its approach realizing that AID A alone is not good enough.

The federal government needs to start sending more financial support but send also a message of hope and opportunity looking at new options to help farmers in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. The provincial government at the same time, I suggest, needs to get serious in putting together a business plan, a strategy for how we can best spend that $300 million as part of the case that we make, that we are going to be wise stewards in how we help farmers and help rural communities in the best possible way.

As all of us know, the days for blank cheques are gone, and we need serious and accountable business plans which are going to make a difference. I challenge others who speak in this debate to give their view of how the money should be spent. Both the NDP and the Conservatives share with us your view of where we should go. Should we support large farms to get bigger and promote rural depopulation, or should we target specifically those who need

60 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 19 99 help, many who have a smaller land base, so that we can help maintain the rural population and our rural communities? It is time fo r the province, as well, to look at measures such as providing rebates for PST paid on business inputs to farmers, or reduced education taxes fo r farm land, increased research in critical areas like low-input agricultural practices, new types of crop rotations. It is important in all this to provide ef f ective financial supported-with-dollars solutions but with a good accountability process and a good business plan.

Let us work together as Manitobans and as western Canadians to provide hope and opportunity fo r farmers. Let us work together to make a dif fe rence fo r our rural communities and indeed fo r our whole province. Thank you. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, fo r giving me the opportunity to put a few words on the record in regard to the farm crisis that is currently going on in rural Manitoba and many of our urban communities in rural Manitoba. I believe that the situation that the farm community faces today is not a manufactured situation.

It is a crisis brought on deliberately by two huge nations or groups of nations doing battle for world market share.

When we consider the European Union and the tremendous changes that they have made, the deliberate policies that they have developed, the direction that they have taken to ensure that their communities will never go hungry again, the political will that is there to ensure that they support initiatives to see fo od production at higher levels than ever bef ore in all of Europe, and when one sees the results of the ef f orts of the farm community in Europe, when you travel around Europe and you see the tremendous amount of advancements they have made in production, you have to recognize how terrifically successf ul their programs have been to encourage production.

I truly believe, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that whatever we do in Canada or whatever the Am ericans do or attempt to do, the Europeans will not easily back of f fr om that position because their people and their countries have experienced hunger and starvation, the likes of which we have not seen in North America. So we really do not know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what the absolute ef f ects of those policies will be and how vehemently the farm community in Europe and many of the countries of Europe will protect those policies.

I believe, as one of the politicians said to me during a trip to Germany this summer, he said we as politicians would be quite willing to enter into negotiations and debate about lowering the Export Enhancement Program that we have, or eliminating it, and we would be willing to and would want to lower the subsidies and the tariffs that they use to protect their production, but, he says, if we did without entering into proper debate and having somebody else to blame it on, he said our farmers would probably hang us, unquote.

I think that is right because when you speak to the farm community out there, you recognize how protective the farm commu nity has become of its policies and its right to be well paid fo r producing fo od fo r the nation. That is the dilemma that we face in this House today. That is the debate that we are into between Canada and the United States.

That is the debate that we are into between Canada and the European nations, and that is the debate that will emanate fo rthwith, that will start within the next week, to see whether we can in fact negotiate ourselves into a position where all of the agricultural producers in all of the nations of the world can actually live in harmony and side by side and survive. It is called the World Trade Organization negotiations, and I think we need only, as a province, to recognize how important those discussions will be.

We also need to recognize how absolutely intricate those dis cussions will be and how delicate the negotiations will be. Maybe, ju st maybe, at the end of the debate, the Europeans will have enough fo dder out of the debate to be able to blame other nations fo r having to reduce the tariffs and the subsidies, and we can in fact lower them and cause again a competitive mechanism to be replaced by what is currently in place. That would be then the price-setting mechanism fo r fo od.

We, as farmers in Canada and in Manitoba, would then have a dif fe rent kind of a scenario than we have faced fo r the last I 0 or 20 years. We have seen all too many times where the Europeans have produced huge surpluses. We

November 29, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 61 have read where they have dumped butter into the ocean and where they have dumped beef into all kinds of programs and indeed given it away and where they are currently and constantly paying buyers to come in and take commodities off their hands, whether it is canola or rapeseed or wheat or grains. That, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is what is causing the decline in prices that we and our grain farmers, especially our grain farmers, are facing today in this province. I was a bit surprised, and I in fact told the Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk), when she phoned me and asked whether we would support a debate on the crisis in agriculture, I asked her to fax over the resolution that she was proposing. I phoned her back and I said I would not put my name to that resolution because I think, quite frankly, it missed the point.

I still do, and I will get into that a little later, because we can talk about all the current programs in Canada, and we can point fingers, and we can talk about flood aid, and we can talk about short term programs and all the current or long-term programs that other governments have tried, but what we need to do is recognize that if we want to protect our farmers, if we are serious about protecting our farmers, that we have to then, after the negotiations of the debate on the trade agreements are over and if the support mechanisms remain in other countries as they did in the United States, as they did in Europe, we then, as a nation, without the involvement of our provinces, without asking our provinces to contribute, need to then, as a nation, say, yes, we will be into that same sort of a program. * (155 0) I believe, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that we need to sincerely make a point and make the argument with Ottawa that they have, our Liberal government in Ottawa, walked away from its responsibility to support the food producers of this nation to the point where many now are talking about not seeding a crop at all this year. I would venture to say to all of you that if our farmers, and there are only roughly about 200,000 of them left in western Canada and probably even less than that, decided this year not to seed a crop, where would the feed grain come from to feed the livestock herds?

Because we are in a situation where the surpluses that we have talked about for many years are no longer existent. We are working, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a time frame that the population of this earth has never seen before. It is called on-time delivery, and we only have 19 days of grains on hand at any given time to feed the world. That has never, in the history of this world, happened before. Remember some 20 years ago when we dropped to 28 days of supply, and everybody says, whoa, this cannot happen, we cannot allow this to happen.

Maybe it was more than 20 years ago, but we created then the green revolution, did we not, because we had to produce and produce and produce to avoid the huge hungers that were predicted to happen by the year 2000. We have not seen those hungers, because technology was brought onboard, farmers were encouraged, and they produced. Whether it was European farmers or Canadian farmers or American farmers, they did produce, and they produced enough to feed the world. The distribution system is another matter that we should be discussing at some point in time, but they did produce.

They met the needs of the population, and yet the farmers in this country have been ignored. Our federal government, under the guise of balancing budgets, did something that I think they will regret during this trade round. They removed virtually all the programs that previous governments had put in place historically, and they did it under the guise of meeting the WTO requirements by the year 2000. They did away with the Crow benefit when they need only have removed 20 percent of the Crow benefit to meet the requirements of the year 2001, but they removed the whole thing. What have they got left to negotiate?

They removed all the other programs, GRIP, you name it, the subsidies that have been in place, and they removed them and without consideration of where they would be when the next round of negotiations would be put in place. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I say to you that Canada has very, very little left to negotiate except supply management and the Wheat Board. That is all that is left, and the Wheat Board is not an organization that has traditionally been highly subsidized or has been

62 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 29, 19 99 a vehicle to highly subsidize its wheat growers. They are a marketing agency. Yet there will be those at the negotiating table that will point fingers at the Wheat Board and say, that vehicle has to go. They will point fingers at our supply management system and say, that vehicle has to go. What else do we have to negotiate? That is the problem. That is the problem that this Liberal government in Ottawa got ourselves into. Then they came back to the provinces and said, well, if you want to support your agricultural community, you have to get involved.

You know what that did, Mr. Deputy Speaker? It put us into a very, very delicate position vis-a-vis our Ame rican farmers, Am erican political systems, and the challenges that have constantly come our way. They pick the highest province with the highest amount of contribution to the lowest number of people and/or industry and then challenged the beef industry, the pork industry, the lumber industry, and we could go on. They challenged.

I think we have to give credit to Mike Gif fo rd, the chief negotiator under the Brian Mulroney administration, who put in place the FT A and was part of the negotiating team fo r the WTO, to have negotiated well, because every challenge that has been put by our Ame rican fr iends, we have won. The trade dispute settling panels that were criticized so highly by some in this room when they were first established were very highly successf ul. They were given the powers, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I never thought the Ame rican government and/or the people of the United States would ever give a panel.

They were given supremacy of rule over the courts. The American people cannot go back to their courts and challenge the panels, the first time ever in the history of the United States that that has happened. Those panels have served well. They were negotiated by our Canadian negotiators under Brian Mulroney and his government. Let us give credit where credit is due. Now, why are we here today? Why are we debating this issue? Because our farmers have been put into a competitive position that they have never ever had to face bef ore.

They, as individuals, I, as a grain producer, every day of the week face the challenges, the competitive challenges of the EEC economy. I face the challenges of the United States government, not the states governments, not the German govern ments or the Italian governments, or the French governments but the whole combined economy of the EEC . As an individual I compete against those fo rces. Can I do it and sustain my industry? No.

Can our provinces ef f ectively ward of f challenges time and time again by becoming involved in the debate and saying yes, we will contribute to the programs that a defici ent hi-federal forc es? No, we cannot do it, because what we have done, we have relegated the province of Saskatchewan into a position where they cannot affo rd to pay their producers because roughly 50 percent to 60 percent of their economy is ag related. How can you ask 40 percent of a province to support 60 percent of an economic base through their taxpayers?

Ontario is less than 2 percent dependent on their ag communities, so 98 percent of their taxpayers can support 2 percent. Does that work? Yes, it does. Manitoba is roughly 18 percent ag dependent, maybe more if you go beyond the outside realms, but you could say in round numbers 20 percent ag dependent. Can 80 percent support 20 percent of an economy? Maybe. But where are the disparities? Or how do you balance? That is what is wrong with this whole scenario.

Canada must take its rightful position at the trade talks, but Canada must also recognize at the end of the day when the deal is done that they have the same responsibility, or should take on the same responsibility, that other nations do, and that is where this Liberal government in Ottawa has failed miserably. They have no idea. They do not understand agri culture.

They do not understand the rural western economies, nor do they understand how much we contribute as farmers to the balance of payments and the huge amounts of fo reign currency we earn by our exports of our raw commodities, of our manufactured products, and how much we contribute to the economy by the job creation that we have entered into over the past number of years. * (1 600)

November 29, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 63 The provincial government that was just defeated knew what this meant. I give Gary Filmon a tremendous amount of credit for the stand he took during the Premier's conferences and the negotiations with the Prime Minister, and I will never forget in 19 88 when we were just elected, the flood that we had in the Swan River where the minister's own home is. I went and visited her farm and watched the huge devastation, looked at the huge de

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-4
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 4.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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