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May 6, 2004

38th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2004-May-06 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 6 May 2004 Jeudi 6 mai 2004

PRIVATE MEMBERS'

PUBLIC BUSINESS

NORTHERN HEALTH TRAVEL GRANT /

SUBVENTIONS ACCORDÉES AUX RÉSIDENTS DU NORD DE L'ONTARIO

IMMIGRANTS' SKILLS

NORTHERN HEALTH TRAVEL GRANT

IMMIGRANTS' SKILLS

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ROYAL CANADIAN NAVAL ASSOCIATION

SUDANESE HOMEWORK CLUB

LANDFILL

GUELPH STORM

ANTHONY HSU

HEPATITIS C

OMEMEE AND DISTRICT

LIONESS CLUB

HEALTHYONTARIO.COM

AGRICULTURAL AWARDS

OF EXCELLENCE

SPEAKER'S RULING

WEARING OF BUTTONS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CONRAD GREBEL

UNIVERSITY COLLEGE ACT, 2004

RETAIL SALES TAX

AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA TAXE DE VENTE AU DÉTAIL

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

COMMITTEE SITTINGS

MINISTER'S BIRTHDAY

MEMBER'S WEDDING ANNIVERSARY

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

CANADA-ONTARIO MUNICIPAL RURAL INFRASTRUCTURE FUND

INVASIVE FISH SPECIES

CANADA-ONTARIO MUNICIPAL RURAL

INFRASTRUCTURE FUND

INVASIVE FISH SPECIES

CANADA-ONTARIO MUNICIPAL RURAL

INFRASTRUCTURE FUND

DEFERRED VOTES

ADAMS MINE LAKE ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004

SUR LE LAC DE LA MINE ADAMS

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO BUDGET

TAXATION

TORONTO POLICE SERVICE

TAXATION

CONSUMER PROTECTION

ROYAL BOTANICAL GARDENS

VIOLENT CRIME

OCCUPATIONAL DISEASE

WASTE MANAGEMENT

CANADA-ONTARIO MUNICIPAL RURAL INFRASTRUCTURE FUND

HOSPITAL FUNDING

SCHOOL CLOSINGS

SAFE DRINKING WATER LEGISLATION

REPORT ON BOXING

TOBACCO CONTROL

ROAD SAFETY

PETITIONS

TEACHER'S STATUS

PENSION PLANS

IMMIGRANTS' SKILLS

ONTARIO BUDGET

PHYSIOTHERAPY SERVICES

EDUCATION TAX CREDIT

MINIMUM WAGE

ONTARIO POWER GENERATION

AND HYDRO ONE

TILLSONBURG DISTRICT

MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PROGRAM

OPTOMETRISTS

ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PROGRAM

TTC RIGHT-OF-WAY

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GOVERNMENT

ADVERTISING ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR

LA PUBLICITÉ GOUVERNEMENTALE

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS'

PUBLIC BUSINESS

NORTHERN HEALTH TRAVEL GRANT /

SUBVENTIONS ACCORDÉES AUX RÉSIDENTS DU NORD DE L'ONTARIO

Mr David Orazietti (Sault Ste Marie): I move that in the opinion of this House, the Legislative Assembly of Ontario should examine the northern

health travel grant (NHTG) with a focus on reviewing the criteria and improving the services associated with receiving support from the NHTG, as well as enhancing the administration of the NHTG by

simplifying its processing formula.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier): Mr Orazietti has moved private member's notice of motion number 15. Pursuant to standing order 96, Mr

Orazietti, you have 10 minutes to lead off.

Mr Orazietti: It's certainly my privilege to rise in the House today to speak to a resolution which is very important to the residents of Sault

Ste Marie and also to residents across northern Ontario. This resolution concerns the northern health travel grant.

Mr Speaker, several of my northern colleagues will also be speaking to this resolution: the member for Thunder Bay-Atikokan, Mr Mauro; the member for Thunder

Bay-Superior North, Mr Gravelle; and the member for Algoma-Manitoulin, Mr Brown. I want to thank my northern colleagues for their support of this resolution and for speaking to it this morning.

We have some veteran MPPs who know very well the issues related to the northern health travel grant and who have done an excellent job in past years advocating

for this program, and this resolution continues to reinforce those efforts.

Before I begin discussing some of the more specific issues relating to the northern health travel grant, I want to thank Minister Smitherman for his support of

this resolution and the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care staff for meeting with me to discuss this issue.

I sent all members a letter briefly outlining this resolution on April 26, and I hope that members from all parties support this resolution, because it is truly

a non-partisan issue. It's about access to health care.

What is the northern health travel grant? It's a program that was created under the Peterson government to help reduce transportation costs to individuals who

reside in northern Ontario and must travel long distances within Ontario or to Manitoba to receive medically necessary, insured specialty services that are not available in their local communities.

This program is absolutely essential to northerners. It exists because of the incredible shortage of specialists in northern Ontario, and we have a shortage of family physicians as well. Certainly

in parts of southern Ontario and rural Ontario those difficulties are present as well, but when you look at the GTA and the shortages there, the shortages in northern Ontario are much, much worse.

It also exists because we must have equal access to health care for northern Ontario residents.

I don't think we need to spend much time arguing the merits of this program, because they are self-evident to anyone who has any understanding of issues facing

northern Ontario residents when it comes to health care.

The northern health travel grant requires residents in the north to be referred by their doctor, dentist, optometrist, nurse practitioner, chiropractor or

medical specialist to a health care facility that is at least 100 kilometres away from their residence. The referral must be for services provided for under the Health Insurance Act, and the

referral must be to a specialist certified by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada.

In northwestern Ontario this is a concern because many residents face the difficulty of traveling to a specialist in Manitoba, and the certification of

foreign-trained physicians is such that they may be able to practise their medical specialty in Manitoba but may not be registered by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, so it

compounds the problem. This is one of the issues we would like reviewed if this resolution carries, and perhaps some of the members from northwestern Ontario would care to speak to that this

morning.

The northern health travel grant budget is approximately $25 million, and through this program each year approximately 161,000 applications are processed for

medical services where individuals have had to travel over 100 kilometres for necessary medical treatment. To put that in perspective, you're looking at a population in northern Ontario of 750,000

to 800,000 people. If this were on a per capita basis, on a per visit basis -- now, we know that's not quite the case, because some of the 161,000 applications may have been by the same person

multiple times. But if it were on a per person basis, this would equate to about 20% of people in northern Ontario having to travel over 100 kilometres for necessary medical treatment. It's a

significant number.

Of these 161,000 applications, about 100,000 trips are by northerners living in more isolated rural communities who have had to travel to larger northern Ontario

communities for medical treatment. Almost 24,000 of these trips are by northerners to southern Ontario destinations for specialty medical services. About 15,000 of these trips are by residents

living in northwestern Ontario to Manitoba. They can't even get the medical service they need in this province.

What are northerners accessing the northern health travel grant for? The top five areas of referral for the northern health travel grant patients were

ophthalmology, facility-based programs such as MRIs, internal medicine, orthopaedic surgery, and therapeutic radiology or cancer treatment. So 161,000 visits, and these are people who are facing

extreme health care challenges travelling over 100 kilometres.

The number of people applying for this grant is rising as the demographics in northern Ontario are changing rapidly, and a significant number of physicians in

northern Ontario are attempting to retire from their practices, so we have an aging physician population in northern Ontario.

There are some key issues we need to address. The northern health travel grant requires an individual to access a specialist who is the closest to their

residence. If we're talking about wait times -- and our government is very committed to reducing wait times for essential care and treatment -- it's very important that northern residents, and all

residents of Ontario, see a specialist as soon as they are able to. If the wait time to see the closest specialist is six months, and there is a specialist slightly farther away but the wait time

may be a month or two, it simply makes sense to have that individual travel a little farther to see someone a little sooner. It's in their best interest; it's in the interest of their health. This

is an issue that needs to be reviewed in terms of the travel grant.

There are program eligibility requirements as currently set out -- without getting into specifics about eligibility; I don't want to prejudge the review process

and unfairly set expectations about the process -- that need to be reviewed.

The northern health travel grant also requires individuals to meet the 100-kilometre limit or threshold. There are some anomalies in this situation, where an

individual might be slightly under the 100 kilometres but needs to travel, for example, three times a week for kidney dialysis and do this all year. The number of kilometres they're traveling for

essential health care is extremely high. I think we need to take a look at those anomalies and address some of those issues.

The other issue, obviously, is the issue with the Manitoba specialists. There are specialists in the province of Manitoba who are foreign-trained who may not be

recognized by the Royal College but can deliver those specialty services. Residents in northwestern Ontario need to be able to access those people and get the best health care they can.

One of the other complaints about the northern health travel grant is the processing time. We have a very antiquated system in place that requires extensive

manual processing of forms. If you call to find out what the status of your application is, oftentimes it's difficult to track because it's not in an electronic form. This also needs to be

addressed.

The northern health travel grant cannot be viewed in isolation. There are a number of things we need to do in northern Ontario to assist in improving health

care. Northerners would certainly prefer not to have to travel for these services. Under ideal circumstances, we would have specialists in all communities, but we know that's not possible. And

certainly many people in Ontario would not want to have to travel these distances if we could avoid it. But since they do, we need to make this program as best suited to their needs as possible, to

ensure that we are breaking down the barriers and allowing affordable access to health care for northerners.

We need to work with northern Ontario municipalities to improve their physician recruitment strategies. I spent six years on the city council of Sault Ste Marie.

We put in place a physician recruitment program where we provide $40,000 for a four-year commitment to physicians in Sault Ste Marie. We're pleased to be able to do that. The Northern Ontario

Medical School going forward in the communities of Sudbury and Thunder Bay is a tremendous asset to our government. We're investing substantial dollars.

The position of the NDP is coming home to roost here in Ontario. The cutting of seats in medical schools has caught up with us. Northerners and people in this

province are paying an incredible price because of that shortage.

We need to review the underserviced area program, and we need to have traveling specialist clinics. I met a couple of individuals in the airport last week who

were traveling to Sudbury and then to Sault Ste Marie to provide specialty services to northerners. I certainly thank these physicians and encourage them to continue to come back to northern

Ontario.

These are some of the things that in the short term we're going to need to do to improve our health care.

I want to close by thanking you for listening to my comments this morning. I look forward to hearing what other members have to say on this issue and look

forward to your support on this resolution.

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): I'm very pleased to join the debate on this resolution put forward, that suggests that in the opinion of

this House, the Legislative Assembly of Ontario should examine the northern health travel grant, with a focus on reviewing the criteria and improving the services associated with receiving support

from the northern health travel grant, as well as enhancing the administration within NHTG by simplifying its processing formula. I am in certainly in support of this motion.

When in government, I supported simplifying and improving the process, and I very much support that now. In fact, I remember a day at the Red Tape Commission

when I brought in 30 rejection letters from the northern health travel grant as an example of red tape in government and did work toward trying to improve the system.

Certainly we have lots of experience in our constituency with the frustration people have faced in trying to access the program. I'll read an e-mail I received

recently to do with this issue. It says:

"Dear Norm Miller, MPP, and Kay Vollett: This afternoon, Thursday, April 22, 2004, we received two cheques from the Ministry of Health, each for $205.50 for

northern health travel, for 18/06/2002 trips and 10/03/2002 trips.

"This is totally the efforts and work you have given on our behalf, and we are very appreciative. We couldn't have done this on our own. As you know, we tried so

hard to be understood.

"We have learned a few lessons. No matter how difficult the situation, don't take instructions from the kiosk in a busy cancer clinic, as this could be served by

an uninformed volunteer or staff. Never expect the bureaucracy to understand or help. Hopefully, sometime the Ministry of Health will produce an application form or procedure that is easier for

people to process who are under great stress and strain.

"Thank you again for all the help and assistance, and we know the work you have done on our behalf."

It was addressed to me, but I want to point out that it was my staff who did all the work on behalf of that constituent, not me. Kay Vollett, Inge Juneau, Jessie

Crisp and Marcia Morrison, my staff, have worked very hard. We get an inquiry to do with the northern health travel grant almost every week. Really, that isn't the way it should be. The system

should work for those who are having health problems. It shouldn't be so bureaucratic.

Here are some of the problems with the system. Say you're a cancer patient. For each trip you make for treatment, you have to get a separate signature, an

individual signature, from the doctor. That's about the last thing you're going to be thinking about when you're undergoing treatment for cancer. There are some real problems with the process of

trying to access the program. You only have six months to do it. Once again, with cancer you may be receiving treatment for more than six months. You're thinking about getting well, not about

trying to access the northern health travel grant. We have to make this program work better for those who need it.

I would like to point out that in 2002, I believe it was, the program was doubled under the past government. It used to cover going just one way; now it covers

both directions. I believe it's approximately 34 cents a kilometre for both directions over 100 kilometres.

But there could be improvements. There's no regard for the continuity of care. The patient is forced to go to the closest specialist even where there's a lengthy

history of care with a specialist at a centre farther away. We have to look at each individual situation.

I have another letter to the Ministry of Health. I'll read a little bit of it that deals with that issue:

"...I am an incomplete paraplegic and have a great deal of pain after driving two hours. I have family and friends in Toronto, which allows me to drive down,

rest overnight, and drive back. (This has been working well for me.)" This particular individual was told he would have to go to Barrie. "If I were to go to Barrie, I would have to take a hotel and

rest overnight, since I do not have anyone in Barrie that I could stay with. The expense would be too great for me and I would just have to stop."

The program has to look at individual cases.

The paperwork is much too onerous: one application per trip, as I mentioned. Chemo patients can have dozens of trips. Applications must be submitted within six

months, even when the course of treatment is ongoing. This puts tremendous pressure on the patient, who should be focusing on getting well, not on trying to fill out paperwork. As I mentioned, I've

seen cases where we've tried to help individuals who have had 30 trips for chemo treatment and they've come in with 30 rejection letters. Surely when there's a program of treatment, there must be a

simpler way of doing it, that one cheque is issued, or one rejection letter, if that be the case. Or you should be able to set out a

schedule of treatment where maybe for each trip the doctor

initials a form. There's got to be a simpler way that's going to benefit patients more.

Similarly, as I mentioned, if a patient successfully applies, in the case of chemo treatment they get 25 cheques.

Doctors are still unaware of the program. As I mentioned, you have to get a doctor's signature, so if they're unaware of the program, they may not inform the

patient. Doctors need to be more aware of the program so they can help the patients. I think the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines could be of assistance in this situation as well.

Those are just a few of the suggestions. I know we have other people who would like to speak to this matter. I think it is a worthwhile idea. We need to improve

this program. It seems pretty straightforward and simple, but sometimes in government it's difficult to make these improvements no matter how logical they appear. I would love to see improvement in

the program. It is a worthwhile program. Northern Ontario covers pretty much 90% of the land mass of Ontario, and obviously there are some huge distances involved in trying to get to treatment.

This is a worthwhile program, and I support this resolution to improve it.

Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): First of all, I want to congratulate my colleague from Sault Ste Marie, Mr Orazietti, for

bringing this resolution forward today. All of us representing a northern Ontario constituency recognize that while our goal should always be to provide all needed medical services to each and

every community in the north, the reality is and shall probably remain that we will always have to travel to major urban centres such as Toronto, Hamilton or Winnipeg to receive certain vital

specialized services. That being the case, it is only fair that a program such as the northern health travel grant be in place to at least partially compensate our constituents for their travel

expenses. Certainly I am grateful on behalf of my constituents, as I know we all are in the north, that the Liberal government in 1987 brought this program to life and at least went part of the way

toward alleviating the sometimes astronomical costs associated with travel and accommodation when your constituents are far from home.

Having said that, there have always been flaws in the program, in my opinion, that I felt needed to be fixed. Under the previous government, those of us

representing the north focused our attention on the level of compensation that the travel grant program provided. Through an absolutely extraordinary campaign, supported by thousands upon thousands

of northerners, we managed to get the compensation level doubled. While it still left many of our constituents out of pocket, it at least provided some needed financial relief.

The problem with our success in that regard was that the government of the day felt they had closed the file on the northern health travel grant program, that

all the problems were in essence solved based on that compensation change. But the truth is, there are still adjustments that need to be made to bring true fairness to the program, in my opinion,

and these are adjustments related to flexibility and to whom the program should apply.

Today, through my colleague Mr Orazietti, we're being given a perfect opportunity to bring forward some advice as to what changes are needed to improve the

northern health travel program. There are few that I want to mention in my remarks today.

I'm going to focus more on the criteria in terms of some of the guideline changes. One of the frustrations that my constituents in Thunder Bay-Superior North

have -- and it's one that I think needs to be dealt with -- is if you live in Marathon or Geraldton and need to get services in Toronto, London, Hamilton or Ottawa, the travel grant program works

based on mileage. So they would say Marathon to Toronto is so many kilometres, and they would give you 34 cents a kilometre based on that. The reality in northern Ontario, particularly if you live

in Marathon, is that there is a very good chance that you will drive from Marathon to Thunder Bay and then you'll fly from Thunder Bay to Toronto. This makes a lot more sense for a lot of

constituents; it actually saves time. This is one of the realities of our situation in Thunder Bay-Superior North; the same with Geraldton, Longlac, Nakina -- you're going to drive to Thunder Bay.

So there you are, going to Thunder Bay, traveling back, yet the compensation level is only factored in as if you left Marathon and drove immediately east. It's something I've talked about before

and something that I hope will be considered.

Another issue I think we need to talk about is those people who are accessing midwives in the north, which is far more common, midwifery being under the

Regulated Health Professions Act, funded by the province of Ontario. If a doctor in a community refers a pregnant woman to a midwife in Thunder Bay -- again, that is the example I'll use -- because

midwives are not deemed to be medical specialists, they are not able to access the northern health travel grant, which seems distinctly unfair in that there are fewer and fewer obstetricians and

family doctors who are delivering babies. The fact is that a doctor will refer them to these wonderful people who are working in the midwifery profession in Thunder Bay, frequently for prenatal

care and low-risk pregnancies, but they are certainly providing some relief to the medical profession itself, to the doctors who are doing it.

I've written a number of letters on this. We'll continue to make the case that I think the midwifery profession is one that we do support in this province, and

that indeed we should be allowing those people who are going to a midwife to access the program. It seems unfair. I've had many constituents write me about that.

Another issue that I think the member from Parry Sound-Muskoka was talking about to some degree too is the issue of your specialist if you've got a condition.

I've got many examples. One constituent had a condition that required her to see a neurologist. For many, many years, she was going to Ottawa to receive this treatment. There then became a

neurologist available in Thunder Bay. This constituent's point was, "I've been going for some time to this doctor who knows my case and my file." I think there needs to be some flexibility in that

regard.

What happens, as a result of the fact that there is now a neurologist -- and the member from Sault Ste Marie made this point very well; it's an extraordinarily

long wait to access that particular neurologist -- is they are being told they can't access the northern health travel grant.

The other one is -- quickly; I'm running out of time -- we have a eating disorder clinic in Thunder Bay that's looked after by the St Joseph's Care Group. The

chair of the St Joseph's Care Group, Mr Dick O'Donnell, wrote me about the fact that for people who need to access help under the eating disorders clinic, there are in-patient treatment centres in

Toronto and Ottawa. The only way you can access that is to get assessed in your regional centre, which in this case is Thunder Bay. Again, because there aren't medical specialists involved, people

who have to travel thousands of kilometres, or hundreds of kilometres certainly, to access the services in Thunder Bay are not eligible for the northern health travel grant. I think they should

be.

I could go on and on. I appreciate the opportunity that the member from Sault Ste Marie has given us to debate this today. I hope this will all be part of the

review. I'm in great support of this resolution.

The Deputy Speaker: Further debate?

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): It's a pleasure to rise this morning to support this resolution. I'd like to welcome, first of all, these

young people who have joined us this morning. It's great to see your class here. I'm not sure what school you're from, but it's great to see you here. We should give them a round of applause for

watching.

As I said, we'll be supporting this resolution, which says that in the opinion of this House, the Legislative Assembly of Ontario should examine the northern

health travel grant with a focus on reviewing the criteria and improving the services associated with receiving support from the grant, as well as enhancing the administration of the grant by

simplifying its processing formula.

I have to say, it's always nice if you think you can work with one of the government ministries and streamline the application procedure or the administration of

programs. Good luck. OK? That's the first thing. You're a couple of people here, and you will quickly find out, because certainly it makes so much sense.

We, of course, as Mr Miller and Mr Gravelle have both said, doubled the grant, as far as traveling over 100 kilometres both ways, and we're very proud of that. I

thank the former minister, Tony Clement, for his stand on that and for trying to listen to the people of the north.

I think one of the biggest problems we have in this House is that there are only 11 northern ridings, and they take in about 90% of the province. We tend to

think there's not a lot happening north of Highway 7 or Highway 9, and it gets kind of silent and quiet up there, but the fact of the matter is, northern Ontario is one of the most beautiful parts

of the world. If people here have never had the opportunity to fly over the north or travel in the north, they're really missing something.

We're fortunate. We have Norm Miller here in our caucus, who is attending all types of functions in the north and trying to get a grip on his position as critic.

Of course, he's doing a great job there.

It's also funny today that both these resolutions come up at the same time, one on the northern health travel grant and the other on foreign-trained

professionals, because of course the issue, not only with the grant, is that we also need professionals of any type, whether they're foreign-trained or our own students, in the north.

I have a couple of suggestions to the government. First of all, obviously anywhere we can streamline the administration of the grant is necessary, and we applaud

the efforts in trying to do that; but second, with medical students. We are opening the Northern Ontario Medical School -- again, it was our government's commitment to do so -- with campuses in

Sudbury and Thunder Bay.

There is one key area we have to zero in on -- and I hope the people from the ministry are listening carefully to this -- and that's residency positions right

across our province. It's going to be a big issue. The other night I happened to speak to a number of students from the University of Ottawa who were at the OMA reception. They specifically brought

the medical students out. It's a very important issue. I've had some of the young medical students in my riding come to me as well. There just may not be enough positions, and that includes family

physicians as well as specialty areas. The citizens of Ontario help to train and put these medical students through university, and it's simply unacceptable to think we might lose them because they

can't find a residency position. We really have to zero in on the administration of that part of the program and make sure that all of those who take their training in Canada, as well as the

foreign-trained professionals, get an opportunity to have a residency position when they want to before they receive their final diploma.

Second, when we talk about administration -- and this is something that has bothered me for some time. The 20,000 new long-term-care beds that we announced in

the province are being built and most of them are open now. I have never agreed with the formula for how they were allocated. In my riding, we need about another 100 long-term-care beds. I've

actually sent Ms Smith a letter on this.

Other areas of the province were allocated beds and they're not full. There's something wrong with that scenario. We absolutely have to find a way to

reallocate some of the beds that have not yet been built to areas that need these beds. I need 100 beds in my area. It's not northern Ontario, but it's getting up there. There must be other

communities in the same position, where the formula has not worked. Again, it's an administrative issue with the Ministry of Health.

I've gone on long enough. I'm going to leave some time for my colleague Mr Tascona. We will be supporting Mr Orazietti's resolution here this morning. We have

to do anything that can streamline the process for helping our citizens, whether they're in northern Ontario, southern Ontario or anywhere in the province. We have to make it work as well as it

possibly can. I thank you for the time, and I'll be turning it over to Mr Tascona for his turn.

Mr Bill Mauro (Thunder Bay-Atikokan): I'm pleased to stand today to add my comments to the resolution regarding the review of the northern

health travel grant, dealing especially with eligibility criteria, improved services and improved administration of the program. I'd like to thank the member from Sault Ste Marie for bringing it

forward.

As many of you will know, this is a very serious health care issue in northwestern Ontario, in fact in all of northern Ontario, which at some point has been a

very contentious issue for many of us who represent ridings in that area. I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to speak to it.

By way of example, I'd like to relay a situation that I dealt with very recently. This past weekend, I had the opportunity to spend about half an hour, of the

two days I spent in Atikokan, dealing with a constituent from that town who recently had a very serious issue regarding the northern health travel grant. Atikokan is a small community that's part

of the riding I represent. It is about two hours west of Thunder Bay. This lady ended up with a very serious issue when her husband became gravely ill and the hospital in Atikokan was unable to

provide the level of service required for her husband. The doctor referred her husband to the Thunder Bay Regional Health Sciences Centre and, as is apt to be the case from time to time, Thunder

Bay Regional was unable to accommodate her needs. The next-closest hospital was in Winnipeg in Manitoba and they were also unable to accommodate her needs.

As a result of that process, this lady and her husband ended up spending 42 days in Duluth, Minnesota. For those of you who do not know, Duluth is an American

city. For 42 days, her husband was there. The result of that process was a $162,000 bill to the taxpayers of the province of Ontario. That part of it of course was covered. However, for this lady

who spent 42 days in Duluth with her husband, who was gravely ill and on life support for much of that time and who thankfully has survived, her bill came in at around $3,200 for hotel, not

including meals and other essentials necessary to accommodate her stay while she was down there.

That speaks for many reasons we need to address this northern health travel grant, but I think the bigger point that needs to be made as we deal with the

northern health travel grant is that we need to be pursuing a health care system in the longer term that has as its goal the ability to provide as many health-care-related services in as many

locations as possible. We need to pursue a system of health care provision in this province that hopefully, somewhere down the line, will see the need for less northern health travel grants, not

more. We're not at that point yet, but we need to get there as soon as we can.

For the constituent I referred to, it was $162,000 -- one patient, one bill. I'm told there are anywhere from 9,000 to 12,000 applications on a monthly basis

to the northern health travel grant program. The numbers must be staggering. In a business case side of it, I think we can support the long-term goal of trying to provide more health care services

in more locations across this province. That should be where we go.

Additionally, I could make the argument -- and I think many of us could make the same argument -- that when we are referring patients to places like Manitoba,

places like Duluth, Minnesota, we as a province are actually subsidizing their health care systems. That work could be performed in this province. We need to find the resources to make it happen.

It's a great example of breaking down silos. Instead of sending $162,000 to Duluth, we need to try and keep that work; let it be performed in our province. Get patients the care they need closer to

home, because that's what this is all about. There's a great business case for trying to make that happen.

That being said, we cannot forget -- my time is winding down. I would love to give a minute to a member from southern Ontario, Speaker, if you don't mind. I

will share my time with the member from Brantford.

That being said, we cannot forget that the most compelling reason for this is the provision of services. We need to get to a point where we can try and ensure

that people, as often as they can, are able to acquire health care services as close as they can to their home communities. The last thing people need to be dealing with at a time like this are

concerns around financial implications. The approval of these grants, even when they're approved, sometimes takes five weeks at the best and as long as three months. That has a very strong impact

on people on low incomes.

We have lots we can do. I'm proud to stand and support the member in terms of this review of the northern health travel grant. And I'm happy to give one of my

minutes to the member from Brantford.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): I want to rise today and say that New Democrats will support this motion. We've long felt, as I think

most people do, that the northern health travel grant needs to be modernized and changed to reflect some of the realities we find in northeastern and northwestern Ontario. Let me give you but a

few.

For example, when we first drew up the northern travel grant system back in the late 1980s, it was based on the health care model at that time: the types of

hospitals we had, the specialists we had in northern Ontario, the kinds of treatment people were able to get, either at home or away. Over the last 15 years or so, a lot of changes have happened in

northern Ontario. Some have been good when it comes to providing better health care services in the north. For example, if we look at today compared to 15 or 20 years ago, there are far more

services offered in northeastern and northwestern Ontario than there were. We need to reflect some of those changes in the northern travel grant.

But also, on the flip side of this argument, we have become much better at diagnosing diseases and prescribing treatment for those diseases. Unfortunately,

some of those issues are not dealt with in the current structure of the northern travel grant, and I want to talk about a couple.

Le premier dont j'aimerais parler, c'est toute la question du système de dialyse. Par exemple, dans la communauté de Hearst on a présentement,

je pense, six ou sept personnes qui ont besoin du service de dialyse. On sait que dans le nord de l'Ontario, comme dans d'autres endroits dans cette belle province, quand on a besoin de prendre la

aller à la prochaine communauté pour avoir ce service de dialyse.

Ce qu'on a vu à Hearst, par exemple, c'est qu'eux autres ont été poignés avec une affaire particulière un peu frustrante. Je reprends

« un peu »; c'est très frustrant pour la communauté. Le règlement du « northern travel grant » dit qu'on a besoin d'être à 100

kilomètres ou plus de l'endroit de son traitement. Si on regarde la distance entre l'Hôpital Notre-Dame et l'Hôpital Sensenbrenner à Kapuskasing, le kilométrage est de

98,5. Pour cette raison-là, on n'est pas capable de dire que les personnes qui ont besoin des services de dialyse peuvent avoir le travel grant.

Donc mon approche, mon choix numéro un est qu'on doit trouver une manière pour mettre un système de dialyse dans l'Hôpital Notre-Dame

à Hearst pour que le monde n'ait pas besoin de voyager. Je pense que c'est la première approche.

Mais en attendant qu'on passe à travers ce processus -- et je vous signale que le gouvernement précédent et le ministre, M. Clement, ont fait

des approches à travers le gouvernement et à travers la régie de santé pour faire les études nécessaires pour démontrer si on avait besoin d'un service de dialyse

à Hearst. Justement, on a conclu qu'on avait besoin de ce service à Hearst et que cela devrait être financé par la province.

La prochaine étape sera le ministère avec la régie de santé, une autre étape avant d'être capable d'approuver un centre de

dialyse à l'Hôpital Notre-Dame à Hearst. Même si on dit oui aujourd'hui, quand le financement sera mis en place, on parle d'un changement d'environ une couple d'années.

Pour cette raison j'avais demandé au premier ministre précédent, M. Harris, et à M. Eves, et là j'ai demandé à M. McGuinty en tant que premier

ministre, qu'on fasse un changement au travel grant : si quelqu'un a besoin de prendre la route pour un service nécessaire pour soutenir sa vie, on peut donner le travel grant directement

à la personne.

C'est un peu différent si je demeure à Timmins et j'ai besoin d'aller à Smooth Rock Falls. C'est à plus de 100 kilomètres. Supposons

que je demeure à Mattice et que j'ai besoin d'aller à Kapuskasing pour un appointment avec un spécialiste. C'est un peu différent si ma vie n'est pas affectée par les

traitements. Je peux y aller, je peux m'organiser, et si je manque mon appointment parce qu'il neige ou les routes sont méchantes, je peux toujours m'organiser pour y aller un autre jour. Mais

quand on a besoin du service de dialyse, on a besoin de ce service, simplement dit. On ne peut pas être mis dans une position de dire, « Écoute, je vais attendre deux jours

parce qu'il ne fait pas beau dehors. Je vais vous téléphoner pour vous dire quand je vais arriver. » Ça ne marche pas. Ils ont besoin du service tout de suite.

C'est pour ça que nous autres, on a dit que, comme approche temporaire, on fera un changement au programme travel grant pour l'allouer dans les situations

qui sont autour de 100 kilomètres si c'est un service qui est nécessaire pour soutenir la vie. Je pense que c'est quelque chose qui est approprié, et ça ne coûtera pas

beaucoup d'argent au gouvernement.

The other thing is the whole issue of managing pain. You will know that in northern Ontario, as there are across this province, there are a number of citizens

who deal with very serious chronic pain. In some cases, those people have not been able to get pain management clinics inside their home communities.

For example, I've had a number of constituents in my riding who have been dealing for a number of years with a specialist in Toronto, let's say, who

understands their case, has been dealing with their pain issues, understands the patient and has had an approach to treatment that has been successful for the patient. In those particular cases,

because we know that when it comes to managing pain it's not only the physical but also the psychological aspect that you have to approach, it may not necessarily be the right thing to transfer a

patient to somebody else, who may or may not be closer when it comes to providing treatment.

I think of Mr Carrière and others I've dealt with over the years, where we're constantly having to make appeals to the northern travel grant system,

saying, "This particular man has to see a specialist in Toronto. Here are the reasons why." This is supported by his family doctor and it's obviously supported by the specialist. At the end of the

day we end up winning, but we have to go through an appeal each and every time the patient has to travel for an update visit to determine if there needs to be a change or modification to his

treatment. The northern travel grant says, "Oh, but somebody in North Bay could probably do this." The specialist in North Bay says, "No, I don't want to deal with this case. It's a case that's

above and beyond my scope of practice." So you've got the specialist in North Bay who's saying, "I don't want to deal with the patient because it's outside of my scope of practice." You've got the

specialist in Toronto saying, "I'm prepared to deal with him. Not only am I prepared to deal with him, I understand the case. I've been managing this man's condition for a number of years," and a

family doctor who is supporting, "Let's send the person off to the specialist in Toronto," but the northern travel grant says, "Oh no. Too bad. You've got somebody in North Bay, so therefore we'll

only pay as far as North Bay."

Those kinds of things have to be fixed. They're not a huge-ticket item for the province of Ontario, in my view, when it comes to managing the cost of health

care. With those particular cases, it's not as if we'd be opening the floodgates of allowing all kinds of expenditures. But those are a couple of examples, as I explained, with dialysis in Hearst

and pain management for patients around the province, where we could have some flexibility that would make some sense and certainly make the lives of patients in this province a lot easier.

I want to commend the member for bringing forward this particular resolution. It's a step in the right direction. It has yet to be seen if the government is

prepared to make those changes. I want to put my best foot forward and say that if we pass this motion today, which I think we will, I have a number of suggestions I'd like to make to the

government about how we manage the issue of the northern health travel grant in a way that reflects the reality we find in many of our communities.

The other thing I want to say is that it's not just a northern issue. Unfortunately, in our province we have a lot of patients in southwest, southeast and

southern Ontario who are in exactly the same position as we are in northern Ontario. They may be living in a community that doesn't have a particular specialty or, in some cases, doesn't have a

family doctor and are in the position of having to travel, not just tens of miles, but hundreds of kilometres to get services. We need to look at how we approach services for those people in

southern Ontario who need to travel as well. Certainly we don't want to go back to what the Tories did, where they had the Cadillac service for people in the south who were able to fly up for

cancer treatment in Sudbury and Thunder Bay and have their hotels and everything paid at 100%, but cancer patients in northern Ontario going to the same facilities basically got a lesser model. I

don't advocate that.

I say we need some system that's fair for all patients in this province who need to travel for services. Maybe we need to look at going beyond just a northern

travel grant to looking at what we can do to help patients across this province access services when needed.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I am pleased to join the debate with respect to the private member's resolution of the member

for Sault Ste Marie. There are problems with the northern travel grant application, which the member from Parry Sound-Muskoka pointed out very clearly, and I'll deal with those fairly shortly.

But I want to point out that in the Liberals' election campaign, in their northern Ontario platform, True North, they talked about northern health care. With

respect to the travel grant, they promised, "We will cut the waiting time for northern health travel grant payments in half," and "We will make the travel grant more responsive to the health care

needs of northerners." The Liberal action to date has been nothing. They have not even announced a study on when they are going to do something -- nothing. It's a backbench member from the Liberal

government who has brought this forward, and I certainly support that. But it takes a backbencher to bring this to the forefront of the Legislature when the government should be taking action. The

government should be doing something about this, because obviously, as we've heard from the members, there is a problem. So what we have here is a Liberal campaign commitment, with nothing done to

date, and we have a backbencher saying, "I want to protect my constituents," and it's the backbencher who's doing that.

The Conservative record on this, as was pointed out by the member from Simcoe North -- I was involved in Ombudsman hearings with respect to the northern travel

grant when I was on the Legislative Assembly committee. The travel grant was drastically increased, enhanced, in 2001. There have been a number of health care initiatives in northern Ontario -- the

northern medical school, to name just one, which is significant with respect to enhancing and providing more accessible health care in northern Ontario.

The problems with the program are pronounced. From what I understand from the member for Parry Sound-Muskoka, there have been disputes over provider referral

patterns, and the closest availability of service results in a grant denial. There have been problems with the availability of application forms. Instructions on the application form are erroneous

and confusing. Separate application forms are required for each trip.

Section 3 is to be signed in advance of travel, otherwise you are disqualified for a legitimate claim. A single form needs to

be signed by five separate parties. There's a lack of assistance for patients with respect to dealing with this. The signing authority is too restrictive. There's also confusion about the

100-kilometre and 200-kilometre stipulation, and the grant is not payable for the first 100 kilometres traveled. Those are a number of comments that have been made by the member for Parry

Sound-Muskoka with respect to this matter.

I would also point out that he was referring to a constituent in terms of staying in Barrie. A lot of the problems for areas from Parry Sound-Muskoka, perhaps

even up to Sudbury and the surrounding area, would be resolved if the cancer care centre approved by the Ministry of Health would be expedited and put in Barrie at Royal Victoria Hospital, and

getting that moving along. It's moving along, and I'll credit Minister Smitherman for taking an interest in this, but the bottom line is that it needs to be approved and set forth to the next

stages of the project to provide radiation therapy for people who are in need.

As a member of the Barrie Rotary Club, I'm very proud to say that one of the projects we've undertaken for this particular cancer care centre is to build a

stand-alone facility where the patients and their families can stay while they have treatment at this cancer care centre. That's something that is a private initiative of the community and I think

it will help address individuals who maybe can't afford to stay at a motel or whatever. We're taking action within our community to make sure that their families can stay with them when they are

being treated at RVH, and that's to be commended.

In closing, certainly I will be supporting this resolution. It's an issue that has previously been dealt with monetarily, but there are obviously

administrative problems that have to be dealt with. The Liberals made a campaign commitment, and I recognize the member for Sault Ste Marie for having the disposition to bring it forward to the

House to make the government act.

Mr Dave Levac (Brant): I wish I had 15 minutes to talk on this, now that the member who just spoke has had an opportunity to unfortunately put

partisan politics in front of this and not recognize this for what it is, and that is to take care of the north and the people who need those services.

I'm from the south -- south-central, southwestern, however you want to say it. I have relatives in the north; I came from the north in terms of my family

lineage. I'm very proud of the north. I want to stand and say to the member for Sault Ste Marie, you keep working. This is private members' business; this is private members' hour. I can only tell

you how much I personally support it. I know that all the members in this place have said that they support you 100%. It's the right thing to do.

I want to say to the member for Timmins-James Bay, who rightfully said this is a universal problem that we have in our province, I hope we do get a chance to

take a look at it. In my own riding there are transportation issues for dialysis treatment that need to be dealt with.

Having said that, let's not play partisan here in this House during this time. It's the right thing to do, and I think we all need to support this to make sure

that our members take care of their constituents. I thank the member, and the northern members, for bringing this forward.

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): I'm delighted and excited to be here speaking to this resolution this morning brought by my colleague

from Sault Ste Marie, the chair of the northern caucus and a good friend of all northern people.

This is about access and making sure that all people in Ontario have access to the health services they require. I represent one of the large northern ridings.

It's a constituency of about 86,000 square kilometres. Most European countries would fit into it; all of southern Ontario easily fits into it. It reaches from Killarney and Manitoulin through to

Manitouwadge, bordering on Thunder Bay-Superior North, Mr Gravelle's constituency, at Marathon.

Some of the issues my colleagues have brought forward are very clear in my constituency. Manitouwadge would be 400 kilometres, more or less, from either Sault

Ste Marie or Thunder Bay. It is an incredible journey just to get to one of those places by car. There is no longer commercial air transport from those places, so they have no choice, really, but

to take an automobile, or in some cases a bus if you can get to one, just to get to one of the major centres of northern health care, which would be Thunder Bay or Sault Ste Marie in their case.

Hornepayne would be in the same situation.

It is very difficult for these folks to access care, particularly if they have to go on a regular basis. Maybe people can do it once or twice a year, but when

you're having to do this on a routine basis, which many of my constituents have to, even the shorter distances of 90 kilometres or less one way cause great difficulty if you're going for dialysis

or chemotherapy or you're doing any of those things that require going to a major centre on a regular basis.

In doing this review, we should think about the context we're in. Many members have mentioned it would be nice to do away with the northern health travel

grant, because we could provide the services in the community. We know that's not perfectly true, but we have made some advancements. The Northern Ontario Remote Telecommunication Health Network,

for example, provides many of the smaller hospitals and even health clinics across northern Ontario with access to specialists. I believe there are now 80 sites across the north that provide this

communication with specialists, with tests. It's quite amazing. I've visited quite a number of them. It's a fabulous service, meaning the patient doesn't have to leave. They deal with the

specialist by teleconference, and there are over 50 specialists involved in that. That is a huge help to our constituents and to our hospitals.

The medical school, when internships and residencies occur in northern Ontario, will be a help. We have a strong northern rural residency program, which needs

to be strengthened and enhanced, and which brings young doctors into the smaller communities of northern Ontario. We have a number of things going.

Just recently, the Manitoulin Health Centre, at their site in Mindemoya, opened a chemotherapy clinic, funded internally, by the way, from the hospital's own

funds, which now provides an opportunity for many chemotherapy patients in the district of Manitoulin not to have to travel. So we are making steps, and we have to see the travel grant within the

context of making sure we have the services as close to home as possible, as all Ontarians would want.

I share the view of my friend from Timmins-James Bay that this is not totally a northern issue. There are places in Bruce county, there are places in Huron

county, there are places in eastern Ontario and in the southwest. Many people in Windsor have to travel to other sites for specialist care.

We also have the problem of the family practitioner, and this has been raised too. We have a shortage of family doctors. In many of my communities, if you lose

one family practitioner, you've lost all your family practitioners. These days in Elliot Lake and Espanola, we're having some difficulty having enough family practitioners. That means you can't get

a referral to a specialist. It's very difficult to get the referral. If you can't get the referral, you can't go to the specialist. If you can't get the form, you can't get the service. That is a

major difficulty we're having these days.

I urge members to support Mr Orazietti's thoughtful, reasonable, non-partisan intervention here this morning. I know the House wants this to happen and that we

can have full access for the people of northern Ontario to be treated like all other Ontarians.

The Deputy Speaker: Mr Orazietti has two minutes to reply.

Mr Orazietti: I appreciate the overwhelming support this morning from Mr Gravelle of Thunder Bay-Superior North, Mr Mauro of Thunder

Bay-Atikokan, Mr Brown of Algoma Manitoulin, Mr Levac of Brant, Mr Miller of Perry Sound-Muskoka, Mr Dunlop of Simcoe North, Mr Bisson of Timmins-James Bay and Mr Tascona of Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford.

I appreciate very much the support shown here today for this resolution. It is something that is extremely important to northern Ontario residents. It's an issue, as Mr Brown has quite aptly said,

about affordable access for northern Ontario residents.

Just to pick up on the point of the member from Timmins-James Bay, this issue is about serving all Ontarians better. If there are anomalies or situations in

other parts of the province that we need to take a look at, we should be doing that. I would be happy to reciprocate support for members in other parts of the province who have medical situations

where residents have to travel to get vital specialty health care. I think it's extremely important.

I want to thank members this morning for highlighting some of the specific cases they have experienced in their constituency offices and some of the problems

that have come to light with respect to processing these forms and with respect to applications being declined for a whole host of reasons. We need to take a look at these situations.

These are people. We are talking about improving the lives and health of people in this province, and we need to take that extremely seriously. It's not simply

about a bureaucratic paper-pushing exercise. It's about making sure people have the health care they need. We need to ensure that this review takes that seriously and moves in a direction that

gives people better, affordable access to health care in this province.

Again I want to thank members for their support and look forward to this resolution moving forward.

IMMIGRANTS' SKILLS

Mr Shafiq Qaadri (Etobicoke North): I move that, in the opinion of this House, foreign-trained professionals and tradespeople possess a

significant potential contribution to the economic and cultural benefit of Ontario and that the government work in partnership with Ontario's occupational regulatory bodies to remove barriers that

prevent internationally trained individuals from contributing fully to the labour market.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier): Mr Qaadri has moved private member's notice of motion number 14. Pursuant to standing order number 96,

Mr Qaadri, you have 10 minutes to lead off.

Mr Qaadri: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and through you to the people of Ontario, before I begin my substantive remarks, I would like to thank and

welcome my honourable colleagues in the government caucus who have shown overwhelming support and eagerness to speak to this resolution. I would like to thank, in advance, the members from

Davenport, London-Fanshawe, Brampton West-Mississauga, Markham and Ottawa-Orléans. They are Messrs Ruprecht, Ramal, Dhillon, Wong and McNeely.

I'm discussing today what I consider, and I believe this House should consider, the greatest riches and the greatest asset our province and, frankly, our

country has. It's not our highways, our lands, our waters, our capacity for power generation, great though those are. It's not our manufacturing capacity, our schools, our colleges, our

universities, not even our hospitals or our health care delivery systems, great though those are. I'm referring to the very people of Ontario, our greatest asset, our greatest riches, our human

resources.

I speak, as well, as a multicultural Canadian, as an individual who has seen from a personal capacity friends, family, my own social circle, individuals come

with the best of intentions with qualifications from abroad but meet the barriers, the hurdles and, I would say, the unnecessary challenges and delays to fully integrate into this society. I speak

to you in an urgent and personal capacity.

I'd like to start with a quotation from the father of western medicine, Hippocrates, who wrote in Greece in the fourth century BC: Life is short, the art long,

experience deceptive, judgment difficult and opportunity fugitive. While this of course refers specifically to physicians and health care practitioners, I think it refers more broadly to the many

skilled tradespeople and professionals who come to Canada and to Ontario. With this quotation, I highlight the fact.

Many of these individuals have undergone difficulty and strains in their own countries to accredit themselves, to rise in their own society, to avail

themselves of all the educational opportunities, which are not often easily acquired in other countries, be it the expense or problems with admission, or simply the class stratification that goes

on in many other parts of the world.

For example, we have individuals from 92 countries in the province right now who have applied to the licensing regulatory body of doctors, the College of

Physicians and Surgeons, to eventually practise medicine. But it's not only physicians; I have here a list provided to me by the Ministry of Citizenship and Immigration in the federal government of

the skilled immigrants coming from all over the world who could actually address the existing and pending skills shortages. I'd like to share with this House, and with you, Speaker, and with the

people of Ontario, these lists.

First of all, the professional list, in the order of precedence: engineers; engineering technicians and technologists; accountants; teachers; medical

laboratory technologists; pharmacists; nurses and practical nurses; architects; geoscientists; and physicians and surgeons. Of course, as you will appreciate, this is merely the top-10 list. We can

always use even more lawyers, if necessary, but this is just the top 10.

The immigrant tradespeople who land in this country, and particularly in this province, are: cooks and bakers; industrial millwrights; technicians and auto

body repairers, individuals in the automotive service; hairstylists and barbers -- of which the third party might avail themselves from time to time; tool and die makers; machinists; electricians;

plumbers and steamfitters; refrigeration and air conditioner mechanics; and early childhood educators.

But this is not merely a list for an intellectual exercise. This is not a list simply provided to us on PowerPoint or some e-mail attachment meant to disappear

into the mass of papers that we have. These are real individuals with real families, who are often coming to visit other members of their family and stay with them, and are willing to expand the

Canadian mosaic. For example, of the approximately 225,000 people who immigrate to this country Canada-wide, something in the order of about 60% of them, or probably about 120,000 or 125,000 of

those individuals, actually come and settle in Ontario.

We often say, almost to the level of truism or platitude or cliché, that diversity is our strength. But this is very much true. There was a television

commercial and print ad that used to run about 20 years ago on behalf of the United Negro College Fund in the United States, and their byline or their catch phrase was, "A mind is a terrible thing

to waste." This is very true. I have, for example, personal knowledge of individuals like Dr Hector Fernandes, who came originally from the Philippines and was a full professor of endocrinology --

the study of hormones and the science of hormones -- in his own native land, and yet is unable to cross the barriers, the hurdles, the challenges, to actually practise medicine. He spent so much

time waiting and preparing for exams and improving his own knowledge base that he actually has achieved a master of science from the University of Toronto in this field and is on his way to doing a

PhD, to the point where he will have a double doctorate. And yet he is denied the opportunity to practise medicine.

The other thing to say is that this is not mere paternalism. This is not an effort of bleeding-heart liberalism. This is not simply trying to cater to a

particular bloc, voting group or base. This is a felt and clear and present need in Ontario. For example, along with all the skill sets and other professions I've mentioned, including engineering,

architecture, geoscience and so on, there is, as of this moment, something on the order of one million Ontarians who do not have access -- free and easy access -- be they northern or southern

Ontarians, to family doctors. And yet, at the same time, we have something on the order of about 1,500, and probably even 2,000, foreign-trained international medical graduates, foreign-trained

physicians, in this province, looking for the opportunity to serve Ontario.

The strange thing is that these individuals, when they're applying for immigration in their own lands, are often granted points or credit or value because they

have these various professional degrees. Yet when they reach Ontario, they seem to be in this Catch-22 situation, in that they have neither the Canadian experience nor retraining and

recertification and, of course, without that, they can't practise, but without getting that opportunity to practise, they can't achieve that as well. So it's kind of a vicious cycle.

That's why I feel very strongly, as the MPP for Etobicoke North, as a physician, as a multicultural Canadian and as a representative voice for the broader

community in Ontario, that the time has come when we in this government, in this House, in this Legislature, must streamline, expedite and make more efficient the licensing, the verification of

credentials, the testing for competency and the language proficiency for all the various professions, be they engineers, accountants, even lawyers, teachers, nurses, architects or physicians and

surgeons. Because it is a felt need and also, beyond that, beyond the service of Ontario and our community, it is, I would say, in this day and age, an extreme tragedy that individuals with the

best of intentions, with their own heritages, come to this country but are unable to reach and exploit the equality of opportunity, which is essentially the byword of a liberal philosophy, the

democratic process in Canada.

The Deputy Speaker: Further debate? The member from Haliburton-Victoria-Brock.

Ms Laurie Scott (Haliburton-Victoria-Brock): Thank you, Mr Speaker; well done.

I'm pleased to rise today in support of the resolution presented by the member from Etobicoke North. Indeed, I don't think you'll find many people in this

Legislature who would be opposed to this resolution. It does contain many fine words, but it doesn't do much except to provide the current government an opportunity to look like it's acting on one

of its campaign promises. In fact, it would not surprise me if this resolution is trumpeted as an example of the government moving forward on one of its promises.

Let's take a closer look at what the promises were. Today's resolution and, indeed, the January 20 announcement by the Minister of Training, Colleges and

Universities fall far short of the promises made by the party opposite. In their campaign pamphlets, the Liberals promised:

"We will remove barriers preventing well-qualified foreign-trained physicians from practising in Ontario.

"We will lower barriers that prevent foreign-trained professionals and skilled workers from reaching their potential. We will work with professional and trade

associations to accelerate the entry of skilled new Ontarians into the workforce. Our goal is to eliminate major barriers within one year.

"We will ensure timely access to trades and professions for qualified professionals trained outside Canada. Newcomers face too many barriers that prevent them

from practising their trade or profession. We will require that all Ontario trades and professions accelerate the entry of qualified new Canadians. If after one year any profession or trade has not

eliminated barriers to entry, we will act."

Well, the clock is certainly ticking on the one year mentioned in the Liberal campaign documents, and yet nothing is mentioned today about requiring all

Ontario trades and professions to accelerate the entry of qualified new Canadians. Instead, the resolution we're debating today calls for the government to work in partnership with Ontario's

occupational regulatory bodies.

In the throne speech debate, the Premier stood behind at least part of his commitment. He told the Legislature, "We will break down every single barrier which

stands in the way of getting foreign-trained professionals and tradespeople into the Ontario workforce." Granted, they no longer attach the one-year timeline -- again the one-year timeline -- to

this goal, but it was a statement of definitive action.

Today's resolution, as I support it, does not address the promises made by this government and it does hide the fact that this government has been slow to act

on this important matter that affects all communities across Ontario. To quote the Premier when he spoke as a member of the opposition on the issue of expanding access for foreign-trained

professionals, "What we really need in Ontario, what would truly and deeply make a difference, would be a Premier who is willing to make this a priority issue." Well, this is a priority issue, and

it should be a priority issue for the Premier and his government.

About 60% of total immigrants to Canada come to Ontario. We expect about 235,000 to arrive this year. Statistics Canada reports that 70% of the newcomers who

looked for work reported at least one problem in the process. The most commonly cited problem was a lack of Canadian job experience -- 26% -- followed by the transferability of foreign

qualifications or experience.

It was certainly a priority for the previous government. Bridging programs were introduced that improved access for internationally trained engineers and other

professionals and skilled tradespeople. They earmarked millions of dollars --

Interjections.

Ms Scott: Now everybody's awake.

They earmarked millions of dollars to provide bridge training opportunities. They more than doubled the number of foreign-trained physician spots and

introduced Ontario's access to professions and trades initiative.

When and if this government moves forward with concrete changes and investments to increase access, it would do well to remember that they need to do more than

just announce more spaces in medical schools or engineering schools or more apprenticeship training. They need to make sure that the infrastructure is in place in the colleges and universities so

they can offer these courses. Professors need to be hired, classrooms need to be available, and hospitals need to have the staff available to supervise more interns. More residency positions need

to be available. Right now, you hear from all different doctors and doctors in training that they have to go to the United States to complete their residencies, and then they write the American

exams and are more prone to stay in the United States as opposed to coming back to Canada. We cannot let this continue.

When the previous government did take action to increase access, Minister Pupatello berated them. In the quotes from Hansard on November 26, "You are just

stringing these people along, making them believe that you're actually helping them." I'm afraid that all this government is doing here today is just that.

I want to tell you a good story In my community of Kinmount, we're going to be lucky enough to have a foreign-trained doctor come to our community this summer.

I want to commend the doctor recruitment committee in Kinmount, headed by Ted Wilkes, because for years they've been trying to recruit new doctors to the area.

The shortages faced by my community are mirrored across this province. A decade ago, there were approximately 43 practising family physicians working in the

city of Kawartha Lakes. Today, there are 34. Of those 34 who remain, approximately 7 will likely retire within the next five to 10 years. In addition, a decade ago, 36 of those family physicians

cared for their patients when they were admitted to hospital. Only 17 currently provide this service. This has occurred while the population has continued to grow and age. The result has been an

explosion of unattached patients -- orphaned patients who live without any regular care and seek episodic care from the hospital emergency department or after-hours clinics.

The need to integrate foreign-trained professionals in our communities is clear -- not just for physicians but for a host of other professions and trades, as

mentioned by the member for Etobicoke North.

I'm pleased to support this resolution. I sincerely hope this is just the first step taken by this government, not the last.

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Davenport): I'm delighted to join this debate. I applaud the member for Etobicoke North for reminding us that we must move

very speedily on this issue of opening the doors to foreign-trained professionals. It is simply not acceptable to have doctors, accountants, engineers and technicians drive taxis, clean

restaurants, or deliver pizzas, and that is what's happening today.

As you know, I've introduced two private member's resolutions in the House, one in 1999 and one in 2002, with very specific recommendations at that time to the

Conservative government. In fact, there are six specific recommendations. I'll just read two of them because they make sense and form the basis of the specific bill at that time.

"That individuals have the opportunity to seek licensure or certification of professions and trades for which they have been trained, in the context of

provincial human resource planning, and without additional barriers not faced by Ontario-trained individuals."

The last one is simply "That all self-governing occupational licensing bodies provide internal appeal processes which are sensitive to such matters as

timeliness and access to information, whereby decisions of licensing bodies can be objectively reviewed by staff other than those conducting initial assessment."

I remember that the PC minister at the time quickly left the chamber, snuck out so as not to be seen to be voting for this opposition resolution. But one thing

happened which is very important to relate, and that is that the backbench PC members of the Legislature stood up and unanimously supported this resolution. In 1999 and in 2002, both times, this

resolution was passed unanimously by the House. Has there been action taken? Yes. There have been some actions.

First, let me congratulate the Professional Engineers of Ontario, who have introduced a pilot program to help foreign-trained professionals. Let me

congratulate the Certified General Accountants of Ontario, who have introduced special courses for the purpose of upgrading foreign-trained professionals. There are others, of course. I hope that

as we put pressure on professional organizations in Ontario, they too are in the process of taking steps so that discrimination against foreign-trained professionals is not a fact.

What is our government doing about this right now? The McGuinty government is taking steps to address this issue. As was mentioned previously, on January 20 of

this year, our government announced an investment of more than $4 million over three years to strengthen bridge training programs to assist internationally trained individuals to continue their

careers in Ontario. Even more, as we speak, the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities is developing what's called a report card that will require regulators to report on key indicators

relating to the removal of barriers for internationally trained individuals. Those are important steps this government is taking to stop discrimination against foreign-trained professionals. Let's

lower the barriers and open the doors so that those who have internationally trained professional degrees can access them and make a good living in Ontario.

Mr Khalil Ramal (London-Fanshawe): I'm honoured to rise today to speak in support of the resolution. This specific resolution is very

important to me and dear to my heart. It was part of my commitment before the election, and now, as the government, it's time to work on it and try to implement it in a professional fashion to help

the foreign-trained professionals who live across the province of Ontario.

I listened with great interest to the member for Sault Ste Marie when he was talking about the travel grant, how communities in northern Ontario suffer from a

lack of physicians, doctors and professionals and how difficult it is to get service in that part of the country, which I have visited many times and love. The people who live in that area deserve

all our support and efforts to eliminate that problem. I would imagine that if we were to eliminate the barriers for foreign-trained doctors and professionals, they might go to northern Ontario and

help the northern communities deal with daily life and help the situation there.

I listened with great interest to my colleague from Etobicoke North when he was introducing the resolution to eliminate barriers for foreign-trained

professionals. He detailed it in a very professional manner. He was eloquent in describing the problems as a result of the barriers, which prevent the professionally trained from entering the

market in this province, which prevent using the professionals to strengthen our community and our economy.

I also want to tell the member from Haliburton-Victoria-Brock that our commitment to this issue is great. I had the honour to go to Fanshawe College around

Christmastime to witness a graduation for about 17 or 19 people from about five different countries who got some training qualifying them to work in the London community. All this effort was made

because of the government of Dalton McGuinty. Another commitment was about $4 million invested in this field to train foreign-trained professionals. About $4 million went to the areas of engineers,

teachers, pharmacists and nurses. It's a very good step, as the member from Davenport mentioned, to start to eliminate the barriers.

Also, I'm working with Middlesex county, with London, to try to gather some money in order to help foreign-trained doctors to practise in the rural area around

London-Middlesex. I think all this trial is the first step. We're getting a lot of support from the ministry, from the government. I believe we're going in the right direction.

As we mentioned, this is the first step, and hopefully we can continue with more help for other people who have decided to be part of this nation to be able to

use their talent as professionals to enhance our economy, so we move them from burdening our economy to benefiting our community, our government. At this time we need a lot of people, especially in

the medical area. About one million people in this province don't have a family doctor to go to.

I think this is a great resolution. I'm in great support, and hopefully every member of this House will support the resolution because it's important to all of

us.

Mr Vic Dhillon (Brampton West-Mississauga): It's my pleasure and an honour to speak in the House in support of the resolution brought forward

by the member from Etobicoke North. This resolution allows foreign-trained professionals access to become employable in their professions.

I represent a riding where a vast number of new immigrants choose to make their home and a lot of these immigrants are highly trained professionals. They're

qualified in professions that are in great demand in Ontario, and in Canada, for that matter. Unfortunately, a lot of these individuals are working in positions that have no relevance to their

field of expertise.

Just last week I received a letter from a constituent, Mr August Apon, who lives in my riding. He expressed frustration in assisting a friend who is a new

immigrant. She is a teacher. She was a teacher in one of the best schools in the country of origin. It was quite frustrating to read the difficulties she was having in getting accredited. In the

letter it was explained that it was a very lengthy and costly procedure for her to be able to teach. I find that totally unacceptable.

There's a huge opportunity cost as well for these people who come here. They're working in positions that don't pay nearly as much as the positions they should

be employed in. Moreover, there's a big cost to our province, as we're wasting this huge wealth of unexplored potential. So I ask all members of this House to support this resolution.

The Deputy Speaker: Further debate? I remind the members that this is normally a rotation, so I'm looking for -- thank you,

Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): Mr Speaker, I'm up right now. I'm not as fast as some of my younger colleagues. I'm doing the

best I can.

I want to thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to join the debate on the resolution from the member for Etobicoke North with respect to removing barriers.

It's certainly an opportune time to deal with this. I'd like to point out once again that there was a Liberal election promise in their platform, "We will remove barriers preventing well-qualified

foreign-trained physicians from practising in Ontario." That's under the

section "The Health Care We Need." It goes on to say, "We will lower barriers that prevent foreign-trained professionals and

skilled workers from reaching their potential. We will work with professional and trade associations to accelerate the entry of skilled new Ontarians in the workforce. Our goal is to eliminate

major barriers within one year."

Right now I think we're in about the eighth month of that particular year, and as to Liberal action to date, nothing has been done. We're eight months into

that year and here we have a Liberal backbencher, to his credit, bringing forward this motion urging the government to do something.

I think it's important, because I've got a situation right now in my riding that I think is outrageous. This involves a school teacher, an exceptional teacher,

who is appreciated and respected by her colleagues, the administration, parents, the community and students. There's a paperwork problem with respect to the Ontario College of Teachers. What has

happened is that the Ontario College of Teachers is not allowing her to complete the academic year as a grade 1 teacher to the end of June 2004.

The individual in question emigrated from Hungary looking for a better life for herself and her family. She has taken the upgrading courses in an effort to

obtain her certificate of qualification from the Ontario College of Teachers, and obtained further documentation from Hungary, which was the last step in the process. I think it's important, and I

put forward a petition in recognition of this, to allow her to continue teaching for an additional three months to finish out the school year. That will not jeopardize the high standards to which

our teachers are held, but will give her the extra time she needs to work with officials in Hungary in order to comply with the Ontario College of Teachers.

I put this forward to Debbie Booth, the vice-chair of the parent council, on behalf of all concerned parents at Pope John Paul II. I have committed and brought

forward to the Clerk a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario specifically to deal with this issue.

Ms Bator has been removed from her grade 1 teaching position at Pope John Paul II elementary school in Barrie, Ontario, by the Ontario College of Teachers due

to insufficient time to get additional documentation from Hungary required to renew her teaching certificate in Ontario.

I'm urging the Minister of Education -- I'll put it forward to the Legislature today in the spirit and principle of what's being put forward by this resolution

-- to reverse the decision of the Ontario College of Teachers, to allow her to complete her academic year as a grade 1 teacher to the end of June 2004. That's a live situation; it's a real

situation right now. I want the member for Etobicoke North, if he really believes in what he's saying here, and I believe he does, to do something with respect to the Ministry of Education. I put

it to the rest of the members of the government to look at a situation such as this; it shouldn't be allowed but it is.

I'd also like to comment on the fact that the backbencher has put forward this resolution trying to urge this government to live up to the promises it made

through the campaign. As a doctor, he's a professional. The government has done nothing to keep its election promise to remove barriers to foreign-trained doctors.

I know when I was serving on a cabinet committee in our government, we were focusing on this and we put forth a program, which I believe was workable. I'm very

surprised the government hasn't acted to bring that forth because physician supply is at a shortage. If you listen to the Ontario Medical Association, they believe there's about a 2,000-doctor

shortage. We have to address this thing urgently. It not only needs to be dealt with regarding doctors but, as I said, it should be dealt with respecting the qualifications of other professionals

and teachers, which I've indicated.

I wanted to be on the record with my support -- and I've put it on the record -- to make sure the teacher in question, Gabriella Bator, is allowed to teach the

rest of the year. This is the classic situation to which this resolution applies, and the government should do something about it. I urge the Minister of Education to act.

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): It is again a privilege to rise on this particular issue. I've spoken to it before in this House, and I

continue to speak to it.

It is trite to say that we are a nation of immigrants. That is said all the time and, in fact, it is true. Ever since Canada's first immigration law was passed

in 1871, immigrants have come to this country literally from all over the world. People think a lot of immigrants come to this country today, but that is not really the case. The big heyday of

immigration to Canada was in the 1800s and early 1900s in the time of Clifford Sifton. Immigrants were chosen in those days for far different reasons than they are chosen today. They were chosen in

those days to populate the west, to start up farms, to grow wheat. Today they are chosen quite differently.

In fact, even in the last number of years, the immigration patterns to Canada have changed remarkably. I know this from having worked in that department for

some 20 years before becoming a politician. When I first worked there, the majority of immigrants would come from the family class. They would be sponsored by their close relatives, and 60% to 70%

of the people would come here literally because they had someone here who could provide for them, who could help them find a job, who would make sure they did not become a burden to the public.

Today, that is not the case. Today, 70% or more of all of the immigrants coming to this country are chosen from what is called the independent or entrepreneur

class. These are people who have skills and abilities that are in demand, or supposedly in demand, in our country. They are chosen on the basis of a merit system, a point structure and a grid

pattern; in nine of the 10 provinces, they are chosen federally and in one province, Quebec, they are chosen independently. I have some more to say about that in a minute. But they are chosen as

independents. They bring with them certain skills and abilities, which Canada says they need, and then quite often, unfortunately, they find those skills and abilities are not recognized once they

come.

To work in immigration is to see an amazing movement of people. If you ever have the opportunity to go to a place like Pearson International Airport and watch

the new immigrants come off planes, literally from the four corners of the earth, you will see them come with a passion in their eyes. They are coming here to a dream country, to fulfill something

for which they have often worked their entire lives. You see them often coming with nothing more than that passion in their eyes, often with very little other resources. But they come here and

almost immediately, sadly, run into the wall that we call, "You must have Canadian experience," and that is a wall which is sometimes impossible for them to break through.

I think of some of those who have come into my office recently who have run into that wall. I think of Dr Lang, who is a Canadian-born individual who went

through public school in East York, who went to high school in East York, who went to the University of Toronto for his bachelor of science degree and for pre-med and then who made the horrible

choice -- at least he now thinks so -- of finishing his doctorate and being called to the medical profession in Germany. He cannot come back. He does come back, of course, every three months to

visit his wife and children, and he comes back to see his parents, including his own father, who is also Dr Lang, who was originally from Germany. He convinced his son it was a good idea to take

those last years at a school in Germany. He comes back to all of that, but he cannot come back and practise. He cannot practise for what he has been trained and for what he literally worked his

whole life in Canada. He's stuck now in Germany, with three-month visits to his family.

I think about the five Albanian women who have been in my office many times, trying to get accreditation to be teachers. They have gone through the entire

course to be accredited as teachers, only to find that in the last few months of their accreditation process, the rules were changed. Now, even though they spent two years trying to be accredited,

the rules have changed and they can no longer qualify without taking additional courses. I have written to the minister about this, but we've not yet had a response. I hope to have a good one soon,

because we need those women to teach in our schools.

I am standing today to support the motion, but I think, with all respect, that the motion could and should be stronger. If it's a first step, then it's a fine

first step. But if this is the entire policy, we need, quite frankly, to do much more. It's not enough to work with occupational bodies. It's not enough to work with them to change things. We need

to force that change, because some of those bodies have been more than reluctant to do what is necessary. We need to make the bodies open up to the challenge and to the opportunity that this

presents to us. We need a credential assessment system and agency in Ontario that can very rapidly accredit and say when the accreditation is acceptable. We need an appeal mechanism, so that people

who are turned down, such as the five Albanian women who want to be teachers, can appeal and not simply be told that the regulations have changed.

In this province, we need to do something that Quebec did in the 1970s. Quebec determined that they wanted to get into the immigration game. They determined

that it was in the best interests of that province to get into immigration and to help choose their own immigrants, those that they needed. I would remind this Legislature that we have that

authority, and we have never exercised it. The law in Canada is still extant. The British North America Act,

section 95, reads as follows:

"In each province the Legislature may make laws in relation to agriculture in the province, and to immigration into the province; and it is hereby declared

that the Parliament of Canada may from time to time make laws in relation to agriculture in all or any of the provinces, and to immigration into all or any of the provinces; and any law of the

Legislature of a province relative to agriculture or to immigration shall have effect in and for the province as long and as far only as it is not repugnant to any act of the Parliament of

Canada."

Quebec has used that quite brilliantly to bring in the class of immigrants they need. They choose their own doctors; they choose their own nurses; they choose

their own engineers; they even choose their own lawyers.

I will tell you, we would have a great opportunity, not only to choose those people, but we would have an opportunity, if we were willing to expend the money

and if we were serious about helping foreign-trained individuals, to be there in all of those countries from whence immigrants come, to assess their qualifications. What would be better, what could

possibly be better, than to sit down and say, "We choose you to be a doctor, or a nurse," or "We choose you to be a teacher," or "We choose you to be an engineer"?

This is what we are telling you right now: "You are accredited." We have done all of this work and we'll tell you, when you arrive in Canada, when your

passport is stamped, "You will be accredited, and you are accredited by virtue of our choosing you here in the field," or, in the alternative, "You will not be accredited in Canada. However, you

might have to take a one-year course, you might have to go back to school, you might have to go to internship." At least those people would know. Humanely and civilly, we could tell them, "You will

not be accredited in Canada. We will not accept you in Canada or in Ontario." Then those people can remain where they are. To my mind, and I think to the minds of many, it is far better to leave a

doctor in a Third World country, helping the citizens of that country, than to bring them here and, as one of the members here said, have them deliver pizzas or work in a kitchen or drive a cab. It

is far better in the entire world to do exactly that. That's what we could do if we were in the immigration game.

It's not enough just to pass this motion -- and I will be voting for it -- but we must seize the opportunity for all of our people, and in so doing, we will

seize the opportunity for Ontario.

Mr Tony C. Wong (Markham): I'm happy to speak in support of this resolution, and I will start by saying that, as the member from Beaches-East

York said, it is now trite for us to say that we are a country of immigrants. We also say that Ontario is the land of opportunities and that we welcome new immigrants from every corner of the world

with open arms. But do we? It is one thing for us to admit new immigrants who have excellent credentials and experience in their country of origin, and yet another for them to arrive and find

almost insurmountable barriers to working in their own profession or trade here.

As a former solicitor dealing with immigration files, it has always baffled me that our immigration admission system used a point grid system to rank

applicants with respect to their education, their experience and also with respect to the occupational demand in Canada, but as soon as they arrived, they quickly found out that they actually could

not work in their own field or their own profession. This totally defeated the purpose of that system. I understand that the admission system has been reformed, and it's improved somewhat, but the

fact remains that these administrative and regulatory barriers continue to exist today.

I also want to talk about the other angle, about the benefits that we, Ontario, get when these qualified professionals and tradespeople come into our province.

It has been widely reported that there is a serious shortage of skilled labour, and I think it is important for us to recognize that it's not just for the benefit of these immigrants or these

people who are trained overseas to be able to work in their own profession or trade, but it will also significantly contribute to us as we proceed to build a strong and vibrant economy.

I've been meeting with stakeholders in the small business initiative to try to identify areas where we can help meet the needs of small and medium-sized

businesses, and we've heard time and time again that the lack of skilled labour is one of the major issues preventing these small businesses from growing to the next stage. We are not talking about

lowering the standard; we are talking about lowering the barrier so that these new immigrants or these people who are trained overseas can more readily qualify under our existing standards.

I understand that a number of initiatives have been undertaken, including the recent announcement by our Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities,

putting in place programs such as internships, but that has to be really improved and expanded quickly.

I want to conclude by saying that when Premier Dalton McGuinty talked about building a better Ontario for everyone during the election last year, I think that

must include the removal of barriers for people with these overseas qualifications and training to allow them to realize their potential in our province.

Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa): It's a privilege to rise and speak on ballot item 18, as it's a large concern to a lot of individuals. I know

that within my own riding, we have Rider Tool, for example, which is currently having a major problem. I know they were having a major problem getting qualified individuals to work on the machinery

they had. They were advertising in every jurisdiction in North America, and they weren't having anybody come in. So they had to go to Europe to advertise to bring qualified individuals in.

But the main reason I wanted to speak in the Legislature today was because of the foreign physicians issue. Personally, I had a family approach me that was

having difficulty bringing in a brother from another country. He wasn't being allowed out of the country because he was a doctor in that country. They didn't really want to let him out, because

this isn't an issue that's just taking place here in Ontario or in Canada but throughout the world, the shortage of doctors. So there were some difficulties there, and I went through the Canadian

consulate in that country to help that individual come to Canada.

Since he has been in Canada -- he wants to stay here, of course. Part of the problem is now -- and I don't think anybody has any difficulty with the standards;

that's first and foremost. Everybody wants to ensure that the standards found in Ontario are maintained. But where the problem comes in is that one department of the federal government gave this

individual a work permit so that he could work in a car wash. So we have a foreign doctor now working in a car wash. It's not just car washes; I met doctors who are working as receptionists, in

laundry facilities, at hospitals -- all trying to go through the process.

The difficulty in this particular case was that the federal government would give the individual a work permit to work in Ontario but would not give the

individual landed immigrant status. It compounds from there. The College of Physicians and Surgeons would not begin processing this individual until they received landed immigrant status. So the

federal government was now telling this individual that they had go back to their country of origin to make application to come to Canada. Well, you can just imagine what's going to happen if this

individual goes back to his country of origin. I don't think he'll be back in Canada.

So we have been able to try to work with this issue, but this is just one example. I know a number of others within our community. We really need to focus on

that to make sure that those individuals who want to come to the great country of Canada have that ability, whether it's streamlining the process so that we can effectively identify certain

professions that have met the qualifications so that we can move that up, or whether it's combining and making sure that process is actually working together with the federal government so they can

begin the process right away and cut about a year's worth of steps off that landed immigrant status.

I know all are working for it, and I commend the member for bringing this forward, because I believe it is something that we all need to work for for the

betterment of our community. I thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

Mr Phil McNeely (Ottawa-Orléans): I'm pleased to support the important resolution before us today so eloquently put by the member from

Etobicoke North.

The picture we're seeing in this province and in this country is that our workforce is aging. By 2011, we'll have 13% fewer younger people, who are the ones

who contribute most to the workforce, and 13% more of the type like myself.

The situation for the province is unsustainable. These economic and demographic trends are indicating that we must rely on the skills of foreign-trained

tradespeople and professionals to be able to compete in the global market. But ensuring that people can work in their fields just makes good sense. The investment they have made in themselves is,

simply put, a gift to us and to our province. Ontario typically receives 100,000 immigrants a year from over 180 countries, and their profile has changed significantly. Now, over 40% of newcomers

arrive with bachelor's degrees or higher.

I'd just like to tell you a story about my own engineering firm. We had a young fellow apply to us, a young Lebanese engineer. He wanted to work. We didn't

have the place for him, but we kept him in mind. Then one of our engineers lost his driver's licence. Ziad's name was there, and we called him in and asked, "Would you drive for this engineer?"

Ziad said yes. He wanted to get into the engineering profession. Within a year or two, he was doing engineering work. After a few years, he was one of our top engineers. He's now with the city of

Ottawa.

So I think what's often lacking is that opportunity, and it's extremely important that we do provide the opportunity.

To suggest, as the members from Haliburton-Victoria-Brock and Durham have, that our government is acting slowly is not correct. This is one of our priorities.

You can see from the people who have spoken this morning from our side of the House that we're going to make up for that eight years of inaction.

We must trade to compete. To compete, we must assist those professionals and specialists among our new Canadians in maximizing their contribution. What better

people can we get to facilitate economic activity between Canada and their countries of birth?

So I want to thank my honourable colleague for bringing us the opportunity to debate this issue today. It's the first step. I think we all acknowledge that

this is just the start; our program is much larger. We have to provide opportunities. It's not enough just to say, "Well, we'll change those qualifications." We must reach out to our new Canadians.

We must bring them into the workforce, and that's for our own good. That's for the good of our province. We have to take advantage of the opportunity we have to make sure that every doctor, every

engineer, every scientist and all the good tradespeople have opportunity. The opportunities aren't going to come simply; it has to be a concerted effort by our government. We will do that, that

concerted effort, that will identify the people who need the opportunity to serve our province and our country better.

So I thank the member for bringing this forth. I think it's excellent. It's our first step toward getting this done.

Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): I'll address this resolution on immigration from the perspective of business and industry in my

area. I thank the member for Oshawa for sharing his time and experience in working with a foreign doctor who's working in a car wash.

I had a chance to attend a symposium put on by our local Grand Erie Training and Adjustment Board. They had presentations from Kim Richardson of KRTS

Transportation, a presentation from Stelco and presentations by a number of foreign-trained professionals -- Andrei Novokchanov, Viorel Grosu and Maria Teresa Fernandes de Castro.

Stelco Lake Erie Works has looked at this issue from an employer's perspective. In the early 1980s they brought a number of trained mechanical and electrical

workers from Britain just to fill a need that could not be provided locally. I will point out, and I know the union would back me on this, that Stelco Lake Erie is one of the most efficient

steelmakers in North America with respect to person-hours and tonnage produced.

We were also given an overview by Kim Richardson. He runs a truck training operation in Caledonia -- Kim Richardson Transportation Specialists. They're very

successful in training many internationally educated employees and individuals, but also support them in finding employment. This kind of support is particularly important for internationally

educated people, as we know, in attempting to obtain meaningful employment in Ontario.

Because immigration is so important in Ontario -- it's vital to our future -- Ontario really deserves a hand in shaping the policies that bring newcomers here.

Quebec and the federal government, for example, have already negotiated a special agreement governing immigration to that province. We need our own immigration agreement with the federal

government, using a made-in-Ontario approach to achieve certain goals -- testing potential immigrants, evaluating them before they come to Ontario, to help us better coordinate and collaborate in

some of the issues we're discussing today.

The Deputy Speaker: Mr Qaadri has two minutes to reply.

Mr Qaadri: I'd like to thank, honour, welcome and salute my colleagues in the Liberal caucus: the members from Davenport, London-Fanshawe,

Brampton West, Mississauga, Markham and Ottawa-Orléans. They have spoken very clearly about the value that we in this Legislature, as the people representing Ontario, must hold dear -- our

greatest riches, our greatest assets, and that is, of course, the very people of Ontario, in particular the individuals, the internationally trained professionals and skilled tradespeople who come

from more than 100 countries.

I'd also like to salute the independent member for Beaches-East York for his always considered remarks and, as well, the Tory MPP for Oshawa for his

contribution. I'd also like to acknowledge, merely, the faint praise or the reluctant acquiescence, detectable but not substantial, from the MPP for Haliburton-Victoria-Brock and the MPP for

Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford, and their newly found and newly manufactured concerns about new Canadians, new Ontarians. As I recall, as they refer to our own platform, I would remind them with respect

that their program for immigrants, new Canadians, was actually found in their Criminal Code section. So I'll let others conclude.

It's on an urgent and personal basis that I speak to you on behalf of the many, many professionals and skilled tradespeople, be they engineers, teachers,

architects, physicians, even lawyers, cooks, automotive workers, machinists, electricians, plumbers and so on.

Equality of opportunity, the opportunity to labour in freedom, to prosper unencumbered, and to eventually achieve a measure of self-respect, self-reliance and

a measure of success, however an individual may define it: That is what this resolution is about, and that is what I ask this House to support.

NORTHERN HEALTH TRAVEL GRANT

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier): We'll deal first with ballot item number 17. Mr Orazietti has moved private member's notice of motion

number 15.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

IMMIGRANTS' SKILLS

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier): We will now deal with ballot number 18, standing in the name of Mr Qaadri. He has moved private

member's notice of motion number 14.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

All matters relating to private members' public business having now been completed, I will leave the chair. The House will resume at 1:30 of the clock.

The House recessed from 1201 to 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ROYAL CANADIAN NAVAL ASSOCIATION

Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa): It is with great pleasure that I rise today to congratulate the Royal Canadian Naval Association on 50 years

of service. The Oshawa Naval Veterans Club in my riding is hosting the association's 50th annual reunion this weekend. There will be delegates from all over Canada and from as far away as

Australia. It is expected that over 700 veterans and cadets from the army, navy and air force will descend on Oshawa for this event.

The association was granted its royal charter in 1954. It was established to further the efficiency and well-being of service, preserve its traditions and

encourage recruiting, as well as foster comradeship among those who have served, or are serving, in our naval forces.

We should take the time to reflect on those services that provide us with the freedom and prosperity we enjoy in our country today. The dedication and hard

work of our navy and armed forces grant us a lifestyle that is second to none in the world.

As a life member of the Oshawa Naval Veterans Association, I invite all members to join me in congratulating the event organizer, Des Stelle, and the Royal

Canadian Naval Association for 50 years of dedication and commitment. Like the bumper sticker says, "If you like your freedom, thank a vet."

SUDANESE HOMEWORK CLUB

Mr John Milloy (Kitchener Centre): I'm proud to rise in the House during Education Week to congratulate a group of dedicated literacy and ESL

teachers in the Waterloo region who are helping newly arrived Sudanese families adjust to Ontario's education system through the establishment of the Sudanese Homework Club.

The club began in 2002 at St John school in Kitchener after consistent gaps began appearing in the results of newly arrived Sudanese children's work in the

classroom, especially in the area of literacy. Concerned parents, with the support of Sudanese community leaders, developed the idea of a comprehensive after-school program to help teach students

and parents the necessary skills required to succeed in our school system.

The homework club meets twice a week, where it provides a place for students to receive help with homework assignments; information to parents about school

expectations in Ontario; ongoing support to parents about school related matters; a means of communication between the school and the parents; and a link for parents to be able to communicate with

the school.

I would like to commend the Waterloo Catholic District School Board's Cathy Moloney, Diane Workman, Mary Coyne, and Maureen Innes, Sudanese community members

Anthony Gubek and Cecilia Imunu, and all the dedicated volunteers who work in this program. This is only one example of the proactive approach my community has taken to improving student literacy.

I would like to take this opportunity to invite the Minister of Education to my area to visit the Sudanese Homework Club and to learn more about some of the other programs operating in the

Kitchener area.

LANDFILL

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): On February 25 of this year, I submitted, under subsection 62(1) of the Environmental Bill of Rights, an

application for review of the certificate of approval for the county of Simcoe landfill site 41. I received a letter from the Ministry of the Environment on March 1 stating, "You will be sent a

notice of decision as to whether a review will be conducted, along with the rational for this decision, by April 27, 2004." Ten days have now passed without a phone call or a letter.

In light of the recommendations in Justice Dennis O'Connor's report on the Walkerton inquiry; in light of Minister Dombrowsky's release of the white paper on

watershed-based source protection planning; in light of Minister Dombrowsky's very own legislation, Bill 49, the Adams Mine Lake Act; in light of Minister Dombrowsky's December 18, 2003,

announcement of a water-taking moratorium that "takes action to stop the giveaway of Ontario's precious water sources"; and in light of Minister Dombrowsky's statement on Earth Day, on April 22,

when she was quoted as follows, "The McGuinty government is moving rapidly to protect the air we breathe and the water we drink, and to ensure our waste is handled properly," surely with the facts

I just provided, the minister would not delay the application for a review decision, or for political purposes actually deny my request for the review.

I thought the Walkerton tragedy was supposed to have taught us all a lesson about how we treat our precious groundwater resources. Site 41 has the potential

for severe groundwater contamination equal to or greater than the Adams mine. The citizens of Simcoe North expect a timely and favourable decision on my application for a review under the

Environmental Bill of Rights. They deserve the same respect from the minister as the citizens of Timiskaming-Cochrane.

GUELPH STORM

Mrs Liz Sandals (Guelph-Wellington): The hockey season has come to a disappointing end here in Toronto, but it is alive and well in Guelph.

The Guelph Storm outplayed, outmanoeuvred and outlasted the Mississauga Ice Dogs with a 5-1 victory last night in Mississauga, to win the OHL championship. The Guelph Storm won four straight games

against Mississauga, the first time since 1988 that a team has swept the finals.

Star forward Matt Ryan led the Storm with a two-goal performance, while Cam Janssen, Ryan Callahan and Brett Trudell each added a goal. Guelph goalie Adam

Dennis barely broke a sweat, with only 20 saves. The Storm outshot the Ice Dogs 41 to 21.

Captain Martin St Pierre, Guelph's veteran sniper, won the Wayne Gretzky 99 award as the league's top performer in the playoffs. The top gun led the Storm in

the playoffs with eight goals and 26 assists.

The Guelph Storm will represent the Ontario Hockey League at the 2004 Memorial Cup in Kelowna, BC, beginning May 15. The Storm has had a solid history of

victories. This is the fourth time in 13 years they have participated at the national championship. Back just two years ago, Guelph had the honour of hosting the Memorial Cup.

I hope all members of the Legislature will join me in cheering on Ontario's representatives at the Memorial Cup. Go Storm!

ANTHONY HSU

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): Dr Anthony Hsu's birthday is May 12. He, of course, isn't here to celebrate it because his life was stolen

from him as a result of the attack on him by the MRC audit system. But Tony Hsu led, and his spirit continues to lead, the struggle to end MRC audits, to create a humane and fair audit process and

to put a suspension, a moratorium or freeze on those audits until such time as a fair process is developed.

Irene Hsu, Dr Hsu's widow, wrote to me, "Do you know if there is any remote chance that I can write a birthday card telling" Tony "that I love him and I miss

him very much and that the moratorium legislation is being passed at Queen's Park, and throw the card in the lake?" -- the same lake on the shores of which Tony Hsu's body washed up.

I say to the Minister of Health, Liberals during the election campaign promised to freeze, to put a moratorium on, the MRC audits. They promised that to get

elected. Two weeks ago, I promised that the New Democrats would do everything we had to do to accelerate legislation to freeze these MRC audits. Minister of Health, New Democrats are going to keep

our promise. Will you keep yours?

HEPATITIS C

Mr Tony C. Wong (Markham): I rise in this House to recognize Hepatitis C Awareness Month. Hepatitis C is a viral blood infection that can lead

to liver failure. This disease is a significant public health concern, and I join with Ontario's health care providers and organizations like HepACT, the Hepatitis Activist Group, in urging

Ontarians to learn more about hepatitis C so they can combat its effects and prevent its transmission.

Hepatitis C, if left untreated, can cause serious liver damage and even cancer. It is estimated that up to 2% of Canada's population carries the hepatitis C

virus. In Ontario, we have identified about 60,000 people who are infected with hep C, but there are many more people who still do not know that they have it. Unlike other forms of hepatitis, there

is no vaccine against hepatitis C, but anti-viral drugs are an increasingly effective form of treatment.

There is a way to manage and live with hep C, but what role should the government play in making this disease manageable? Funds need to be set aside for early

detection and treatment. But in all other aspects of health policy in this province, the most basic of those is primary care, the very basics of a having a family doctor attend to you and your

ongoing care. If you're put on a treatment program with a specialist, even if that specialist is in another city, you have to have that continuing care in your community.

We would like to thank organizations like HepACT and HepCURE for their tireless work to raise awareness of hep C in Canada.

OMEMEE AND DISTRICT

LIONESS CLUB

Ms Laurie Scott (Haliburton-Victoria-Brock): I'm pleased to rise today to draw the attention of the Legislature to a ceremony that took place

in my riding on May 1, marking the 25th anniversary of the Omemee and District Lioness Club.

The Omemee and District Lioness Club was chartered on May 12, 1979, with 15 members. Four charter members -- Ruth Bailey, Edna Carew, Diana Clifford and Noreen

Parks -- are still active in the club.

The main focus of the club is to serve in the community with ongoing projects such as the food bank, Women's Resources, Omemee Children's Centre, Five Counties

Children's Centre, chapel restoration at Emily Cemetery, vision screening, local families in need and cries for help that they can afford to support.

The Lioness Club is also a strong supporter of both Peterborough and Lindsay hospitals. In 1995, they raised over $6,000 for CAT scan equipment in

Peterborough. More recently, they have been supporters of the heart catheter and the defibrillator equipment in their local fire department.

Beyond our community, they've also helped to support District A-16 projects and worthwhile organizations far afield, such as Lions Club Camp Kirk. In 1985 to

1986, they furnished the double room at Canine Vision Canada. They continue to support the foundation, and all club members have life memberships.

Over the years, they've raised money in many different ways. In November 1988, the Lioness Club tried a new fundraiser: apple pies. Fifteen years and

approximately 50,000 pies later, this project is still one of their main sources of income.

I would like to add my congratulations and thanks to President Sue Collins and all the members of the Omemee and District Lioness Club. Without their efforts

over the past quarter century, the community would have been a much poorer place. You have much to be proud of. Congratulations.

HEALTHYONTARIO.COM

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): Mr Speaker, you, in particular, will be happy to know that HealthyOntario.com, an Ontario government Web

portal that provides easy access to consumer health information, is in the running for a top international Internet award, the Webby Award.

HealthyOntario.com is being recognized for its excellence in providing Ontarians with information they need to learn about themselves and find answers to their

health questions. Ontarians can use HealthyOntario.com to find a doctor near them and look up information on specific health conditions and medications. The Web site's success is also reflected in

the enormous response from the public, as it averages more than 4.5 million hits each month.

Since being launched in October 2002, HealthyOntario.com has won nine major information awards for delivering high-quality service to the public. Some of these

awards include the 2003 National Award of Excellence for best Web site, the 2003 prize for best writing and outstanding electronic and interactive communication, and the 2003 Ontario Showcase

Award.

HealthyOntario.com is one of five nominees for the eighth annual Webby Awards for government and law Web sites. The Webby Awards are chosen by members of the

International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences. HealthyOntario.c