role="main" class="main-container container js-quickedit-main-content" id="main-content">

April 19, 1990

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

< Previous sitting day

Next sitting day >

Hansard Transcripts

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

ONTARIO YOUNG TRAVELLERS PROGRAM

ROYAL ASSENT

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

RELIGIOUS EDUCATION

AGRICULTURAL FUNDING

YOUTH GANGS

DOCTORS’ FEES

EARTH DAY

INTEREST RATES

EDUCATION FINANCING

VICTIMS OF CRIME

ANNIVERSARY OF KATYN FOREST MASSACRE

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

NATIONAL CONSUMER WEEK / SEMAINE NATIONALE DES CONSOMMATEURS

RESPONSES

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

NATIONAL CONSUMER WEEK

ORAL QUESTIONS

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

SOFT DRINK CONTAINERS

PATRICIA STARR INQUIRY

CHILDREN’S MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

ABUSE OF THE ELDERLY

NATIVE SERVICES

SAULT STE MARIE FAMILY SERVICES CENTRE

GREATER TORONTO AREA RAPID TRANSIT

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

GREATER TORONTO AREA RAPID TRANSIT

DISABLED STUDENTS

PETITIONS

HOSPITAL BEDS

MOTOR VEHICLE REGISTRATION FEES

CONSTRUCTION DE DEUX ECOLES

TRESPASS TO PROPERTY LEGISLATION

REPORT BY COMMITTEE

STANDING COMMIYFEE ON THE OMBUDSMAN

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

MUNICIPAL STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

PUBLIC LANDS AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

NON-UNIONIZED WORKERS PROTECTION ACT, 1990

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION (continued)

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The House met at 1102.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

ONTARIO YOUNG TRAVELLERS PROGRAM

Mr Kozyra moved resolution 48:

That, in the opinion of this House, recognizing that there presently exists a program called the Ontario young travellers program which assists students in northern Ontario with the cost of travelling to southern Ontario to learn more about their province and experience and access the resources located in the south, the government of Ontario should take steps to implement a reciprocal program allowing students in the south to travel to the north so that they also have the opportunity to take advantage of both the human and natural resources available in the north and develop a greater understanding of the diversity of the province.

Mr Kozyra: I must first apologize for my. chest and head cold which affects my voice so much. I will proceed regardless, as a true northerner.

It is my pleasure to put forth this morning what I would call a modest proposal of my own. Like Jonathan Swift’s proposal it does involve economic considerations, but unlike his proposal it is far kinder and gentler to the youngsters in our province than his was.

At the present time in the province we have what is called the Ontario young travellers program. This affects directly or indirectly about 23,000 grade 7 and 8 students in northern Ontario who have the potential to take advantage of this. Not all of them do go, but they have the potential because the program exists for them. A good number, several thousand each year, make their way down primarily to Toronto to take advantage of this with their teachers. I think it is an excellent program.

It is one that involves a Toronto visit, where they visit the Royal Ontario Museum, Canada’s Wonderland, the Ontario Science Centre, that other centre of great renown, the Eaton Centre, for shopping and, last but not least, Queen’s Park, where they see the House in action and they take advantage of the activities going on here. Some of them go on to visit Niagara Falls as well. One can see that for them this is a wonderful opportunity, a cultural and educational experience.

Statistics show that in any given year in Ontario there are close to 250,000 students in grades 7 and 8, and approximately 10 per cent of these are in northern Ontario. But I would like to focus on the 90 per cent in southern Ontario who do not have access to this program, who at the present time are shut out of this wonderful experience, not in coming to Toronto, but my proposal is that they visit the centres in northern Ontario for a very rich and lively experience. Northern Ontario has 90 per cent of the land mass, and 90 per cent of the students of this great province never get a valid chance to see this. This 90 per cent factor I think is extremely important.

A little more detail about the Ontario young travellers program: It was established in 1973 by the then Minister of Education, Thomas Wells. There is a subsidy for travel. There is also a subsidy for overnight accommodation if the students travel more than 1,000 kilometres. At that time, when it was instituted, just to show you the population shift, the northern Ontario student component was roughly 20 per cent. We have suffered a population decline and that has even more implications for the huge numbers of students in southern Ontario.

My proposal would see the expansion of this great program or creation of another one specifically for southern Ontario so that these 90 per cent would be able to see the 90 per cent of northern Ontario that presently very few have a chance to. In so doing they would examine the geographic, cultural and economic diversity of this great province.

If we do not proceed with this type of program, unfortunately we see two Ontarios emerging. There is a prosperous, populous one and a scarcely populated, poorly understood northern Ontario. I think that is something that could stand correcting. So the goals of this proposal are the expansion of the existing program or the creation of a new southern Ontario program to foster appreciation of the province’s diversity, to raise the awareness of the students about northern Ontario and to encourage tourism in northern Ontario.

The proposal’s specifics include five target areas, as I call them: the Sudbury-North Bay region, the Timmins-Kirkland Lake-Kapuskasing region, the Sault Ste Marie region, the Thunder Bay region, and the Kenora-Fort Frances-Rainy River region.

To be a little more specific, here is a bird’s-eye view of some of these regions and what they have to offer as possible tourist highlights. In the Sudbury-North Bay region -- let me just read a little bit from here; it sounds like a bit of a tourist travelogue, but it is part of the pitch. In Sudbury they could see such highlights as the Big Nickel mine. “Put on a hardhat and enjoy a fascinating underground guided tour at the Big Nickel mine, compare different mining methods, inspect a powder magazine, see a refuge station where miners retreat in case of emergency, and experience a simulated blast display.

At Science North in Sudbury” -- Science North is northern Ontario’s spectacular hands-on science centre -- ”pet a porcupine, create a tornado, find a fossil and take it home,” etc.

If they travel on to the North Bay region, one of the great attractions is that the Dionne quintuplets were born there. Just a little bit from this brochure: “The world was amazed by the birth of the Dionne quintuplets on May 28, 1934, in nearby Corbeil. This amazement quickly turned to love for the five identical tiny girls. It was a one-in-57-million chance of giving birth to identical quintuplets. The Dionne home museum contains many artefacts from the quints’ early days and their growing years -- their five little toothbrushes, five prayer books,” etc. You get the picture. That would be North Bay.

If they travel on to the Timmins-Kirkland Lake-Kapuskasing area, the students would find out that Timmins is, in terms of area, Canada’s largest city, the largest mining municipality in the world, the second largest city in North America, the only Canadian city with 45 registered traplines within city limits and the only city with over 500 lakes and hundreds of miles of rivers and streams. On the Timmins gold mine tour, they will discover a unique adventure 3,500 feet underground at an operating gold mine in Timmins. They will never forget this exciting tour, which has now become one of the north’s fastest-growing attractions.

If they were to move on to the Kenora-Rainy River-Fort Frances area, what is normally known as Ontario’s sunset country, many more exciting tours await them, including tours of Ontario paper mills. They could go on to a famous place called Minaki. There is a little bit on Minaki here. “Imagine soaring cliffs overlooking endless lakes, silence broken only by the call of the loon, northern lights flashing across velvet skies. Come to Minaki, experience the Ojibway culture, explore sacred rock carvings, test your skills in a voyageur canoe or hike to the top of Gooseneck Mountain.” Just a little taste of that area.

Then there is Thunder Bay itself: the geographic centre of Canada, a city of 120,000 people, the North of Superior tourist area, land of the sleeping giant, where the legend abounds about Nanibijou, the great Ojibway legend of Nanibijou, the prince who fell asleep and turned into this huge rock formation that now graces the harbour of Thunder Bay. Thunder Bay is Canada’s second largest port. It is the world’s largest grain handling port.

It is truly a multicultural city, and its international friendship gardens featuring over 30 displays by the various ethnic associations is a truly wonderful statement of the harmony in which we work. It is amethyst country, amethyst being the provincial mineral rock. There are open pits for amethyst, some of the biggest in the world. You can go there and pick your own amethyst crystal.

They can tour the grain elevators, some of the largest structures ever built, take the harbour cruise and end up at Old Fort William, a historic, authentic re-creation of an early 19th-century trading post, one of the largest such in North America, where history lives every day. Then there is the natural beauty of the Lake Superior shore, Ouimet Canyon, Sibley Provincial Park and our own Niagara of the north, Kakabeka Falls.

Last but not least is the Terry Fox monument. Terry Fox, in his marathon of hope, ran to the halfway point in Canada and, unfortunately, had to stop there. He was very close to Thunder Bay. In his memory, as a tribute to that wonderful effort, there is a magnificent monument close to Thunder Bay.

In conclusion, I think a wonderful opportunity awaits the southern Ontario students who would be able to partake of this program. Conducted annually for grade 7 and 8 students, over a period of time it would involve a huge segment of our population that would have this awareness and appreciation for a large part of Ontario they presently do not have. I think these children would become ambassadors of goodwill through their awareness of this diversity, both cultural and economic, not to mention the tourist input that thousands of students touring the north would have. I think it is an opportunity that should not be missed, and I encourage my colleagues to support me.

Mr Wildman: I rise in support of the resolution my colleague has put forward today. I want to congratulate him in recognizing the need for greater communication and understanding of northern Ontario among people in southern Ontario, particularly our young people.

As he said, most people are unaware of the fact that 90 per cent of the land mass of the province is north of the French River, while we have only about nine per cent of the population. Unfortunately, that population has been dwindling. There has been an outmigration from northern Ontario communities, particularly from the small, one-industry towns, into the larger communities in the north, and from the larger communities in the north the young people have been moving in greater numbers to southern Ontario for employment.

I want to say first that the Ontario young travellers program is a very good program and one that I am a strong supporter of. It enables northern Ontario students in grades 7 and 8, usually grade 8, to travel to the capital of the province, Toronto, to visit the Legislature and see the zoo that we call the assembly. But it also allows them to see the Metro Toronto Zoo, in many cases, and the other attractions in the Toronto area such as the Ontario Science Centre.

Most often the trips include a visit to the new domed stadium for a baseball game, the CN Tower, Ontario Place and the many attractions that I think people in Metropolitan Toronto perhaps come to take for granted as part of being a world-class city.

It also may let northern Ontario students become aware of the tremendous economic activity and commerce in the Toronto area and the enormous size of the communities here compared to most communities in northern Ontario. I hope it also makes them aware of the ethnic diversity of this part of the province, which is mirrored in some ways by many northern communities. I also hope it makes them aware in some way of the social problems that have developed with the enormous growth in this area and the problems of homelessness and poverty that have grown as well as the wealth in this area.

I want to say that I would have liked to have my colleague the member for Port Arthur mention that there should be some improvements to the Ontario young travellers program as it is already constituted. He is probably aware that there has not been a significant increase in the funding for that program for many years. The subsidy for travel for students, which once covered the return air fare from his part of the province to Toronto, as well as some assistance for accommodation and travelling around this part of the province, no longer meets the needs, the costs, with inflation.

In my part of the province, most of the students travel from Algoma by bus. It is a one-day trip by bus for most. Some come by train, and some fly as well, but most travel by bus. The cost of bus transportation has escalated at a rate that it is now impossible for the young travellers program to properly cover the cost. I suspect that may be the case for my friend the member for Algoma-Manitoulin’s students as well.

I have attempted to persuade the government to increase the funding for that program, because we all know that the students, their teachers, their parents and friends work very hard to raise money for these trips every year. It is usually a year-long project for the grade 8 students. They are having to raise larger and larger proportions of the cost of the trip now.

In some cases, I regret to say, some elementary schools have discontinued their trips and no longer do it under the Ontario young travellers program because they do not think the grant is any longer adequate and they cannot raise enough money locally to cover the deficit. So some of the students whose older brothers and sisters were able to take a trip under the program are now denied that opportunity when they reach grade 8.

I think that is most unfortunate and I would encourage all members, particularly all members from the north but all members from southern Ontario as well, to encourage the Ministry of Education to increase the funding for the Ontario young travellers program.

Specifically, I agree with my friend the member for Port Arthur that there is a tremendous need, as I said, to educate the people of southern Ontario about the vastness of the north, the beauty of the north, the resources of the north, the potential of the north and the problems of the north.

We have had raised in this House this week the fact that the Deputy Minister of Northern Development wrote a confidential memo in January 1990 to his minister in the cabinet and pointed out that a large number of one-industry towns in northern Ontario are facing serious economic depression, that we are continuing the boom-bust cycle that resource communities have faced for years, that nothing has changed, that 2,000 jobs are threatened in the Elliot Lake area, for instance, this year, and nothing this government is doing is changing or addressing that.

To be frank with members, I am not being partisan about this. That was the same problem we had with the previous government, and I would say it would probably be a problem if my party were in government too, as a northern member. The reason is this: Not enough people in southern Ontario understand the situation in northern Ontario. I am not being critical of them in saying that; it is not surprising they do not. One of the biggest mistakes that was ever made in this province was splitting the road map and putting southern Ontario on one side of the map and northern Ontario on the back.

Mr D. R. Cooke: Don’t do that; we’d be too small.

Mr Wildman: Exactly. The problem is, the scales are different on both maps and most people do not look at the scale and are not used to reading maps when they are just trying to find directions by road. They look at the two and they have no idea how large the territory of northern Ontario really is, because it is on a much smaller scale and the southern Ontario portion is on a larger scale. It is quite correct that if it was all one map, the south would be so small in order to fit it on that size of a page, members would not be able to read the road map in the southern part of the province. That is a problem.

I have had people who I would have hoped when I first came here would have known better. I have had senior bureaucrats in the government, other members of the Legislature and people who work around the Legislature ask me, if I could attend a meeting in Sudbury, for instance, on a Saturday. I have said, “I’m sorry, I would like to be there but I have to be in Hornepayne on the Friday night.” They sort of look at me and say, “So why don’t you go to Hornepayne on Friday night and go to Sudbury on Saturday?” They do not understand that it is farther to drive from Hornepayne to Sudbury than it is from Toronto to Three Rivers. Somehow that has to change.

If we are going to ever get around the problem of two Ontarios, we have to have an understanding, and frankly, if I could, I would add to this resolution a proposal that used to be a sort of hobbyhorse of the Treasurer when he was in opposition. Years ago there used to be a program for members of the Legislative Assembly where they would be taken on a tour of northern Ontario every couple of years.

They would go on the Ontario Northland Railway up to Moosonee, and then they would go up to the Algoma Central Railway north of Sault Ste Marie to Hearst and all along Highway 11 to Thunder Bay and on up to Kenora and Rainy River, on a tour that would take maybe three weeks. It was discontinued because it was considered just a big boondoggle. Well, maybe it was. That was before my time. The Treasurer probably can tell you more about it, but the fact is, at least those members of the assembly learned about the vastness and the distances and, yes, the potential of northern Ontario.

They also visited a lot of the small communities and saw some of the problems, or at least got a glimpse of them.

I think that would be a first step. But just educating members of the assembly is not going to change. The fact is, we have 15 ridings in northern Ontario. We have got only nine per cent of the population. We have to educate the public of southern Ontario about the north or just the fact of numbers is going to make it impossible for any government -- and I say that seriously -- to put the kind of resources out that are required if we are actually going to change the boom-bust cycle in northern Ontario at any date.

I am not being critical when I say it is normal. If you have three million people living in the Metropolitan Toronto area, all of whom have legitimate needs and concerns that they want the provincial government to respond to, it is natural that the government is going to respond to them. But if some of those three million had a better understanding of what could be done in northern Ontario and how that might benefit southern Ontario, perhaps they would be pressing not just to have the problems of Metro dealt with but also the problems of the north, and then governments would have to respond.

Maybe that is a pipedream. Maybe I am reading too much into the resolution of my friend the member for Port Arthur, but I think it is a good idea. It is a first step. I congratulate him for making the proposal, again with the proviso that I think there should also be some improvements in the current Ontario young travellers program. Also, I think there is a need to get more members of the assembly into the north. Some members of the assembly would say: “What do you mean?

We serve on legislative committees and we travel to places like Sudbury and Thunder Bay and Sault Ste Marie for legislative committee hearings.” That is true, but they see only the larger centres. You almost never get a legislative committee that goes to Attawapiskat or to Gore Bay or, for that matter, they almost never do anything but fly from Toronto to the Sault or from Toronto to Thunder Bay. Ministers do that, unfortunately.

I think there should be a rule that the Minister of Transportation should not be allowed to take an aircraft. He should be required to drive on Highway 17 and Highway II any time he is going to the north. Then we might have decent roads up north. We cannot just fly in and fly out and get a real understanding of the north or the vastness of our area. We have to have people travelling in the area by road, seeing the lakes and the rivers, the forests and the small communities. I commend my friend for bringing in this resolution.

Mr McLean: I am pleased this morning to rise on behalf of our party in support of this resolution from the member for Port Arthur. I congratulate him for his initiative in bringing this forward.

A little history of the Ontario young travellers program:

Back on 23 October 1973, the program was announced by the then Minister of Education, Tom Wells. It allowed northern students in grades 7 and 8 to travel to Toronto and to experience the Legislature and other unique areas here in the city. The students received a subsidy to defray their travelling expenses, and students from more than 1,000 kilometres away received funds for overnight accommodation as well.

The young travellers program, at the time of its inception, enabled 20 per cent of Ontario’s grade 7 and 8 students from the north to visit Toronto and other southern locations. Given the change in the provincial population distribution, nearly 90 per cent of Ontario students have yet to experience the distinct difference in the north.

When the Ontario young travellers program was introduced back in 1973, as I said, it was intended to allow the people, from the north to travel to Toronto to gain educational experiences. But now, nearly 20 years later, I believe it is time to expand the scope of this program. I agree with my colleague on that. I wholeheartedly agree that the government of Ontario should take the initiative and the necessary steps to encourage students from southern Ontario to travel to the north.

Many of our young people, while having had the opportunity to experience the many faces of southern Ontario, do not know what the northern region of our province really has to offer. They have not seen at first hand the rich forests and lush park lands. They have not looked out over the clear lakes or seen much of the province’s wildlife in its natural habitat. They have not visited the people who work in our mines or who live in our logging camps. In short, many of our young people do not know just how diverse this province really is; and without this knowledge, we cannot expect them to adequately deal with the problems which will face Ontario in the next few decades.

Educating our children should not end in the classroom. We must encourage students to learn through experience. And what better place to begin than within the far-reaching corners of their very own province. Northern Ontario offers an education in history, in geography, in geology, in art, in science and, last but not least, in the way in which our cousins in the north live.

As well, I believe that there would be additional benefits from the implementation of a program to assist students from southern Ontario in visiting the north. As Tourism and Recreation critic for our party, I am especially pleased to support this resolution, as I feel that the initiation of such a program would ultimately encourage tourism in northern Ontario. I have no doubt that, once having gained a greater awareness of Ontario’s north, the participants of such a program would have the incentive to return to the area.

Considering that the tourism industry suffered a massive 27.8 per cent decline in person-trips within the province by Ontarians in 1989 and a net loss of $3.25 billion in tourism revenues since 1988, we must encourage recreational travel within our province.

Therefore, in the hope of fostering a greater understanding of all of Ontario in the minds and hearts of our young people and in the hope of promoting our vast and beautiful north, I wholeheartedly endorse the resolution. Over the years we have had the junior rangers program, which has been one where young people could have the opportunity to travel to the north, work for the summer and benefit from the diverse parts of this province. The make-work programs that the Ministry of Natural Resources has had over the years have been a great benefit to the young people from the south.

I remember many years ago I had a young person on the agricultural program from the city of Toronto. He had never been out of the city in his life. He came to my farm to work for the summer. What a great experience for a kid who had never been out of the city. I told him the first two weeks there he would be so unhappy that he would want to get back to the city, that he just would not believe what he got himself into.

I said, “If you can get through the first two weeks, you will begin to like what you are doing and you will enjoy it.” It is unbelievable how that young person picked up on what took place around the farm. He ended up milking cows. To make a long story short, when it came to September he did not want to go back to Toronto. The young lad did not have a muscle in his arms when he came, but when he left he was fit and really enjoyed life.

Those are the types of programs that the government should be implementing further. I see this year it is bringing back the agricultural program for students, and I think it is one of the best programs that the government has had.

Tourism is where a lot of the young people can gain experience. They can get jobs in the north. They can travel to the north. They will get to like it and they will want to go back there. So the resolution from the member today is really what we hope will make some of those things happen, but not only that. The member for Algoma speaks about the diverse culture in northern Ontario. Many of us know what it is, but people in southern Ontario are not fully aware of what it is. I think to give them the opportunity to travel to the north is a great education, and it furthers their experience in the habitat and the great clear waters that we have in the north.

I compliment the member for bringing this resolution forward. I will leave the balance of my time for my colleague the member for Hastings-Peterborough.

Mr D. R. Cooke: It gives me great pleasure to support the resolution brought forward by my colleague the member for Port Arthur, who in my view is one of the more sensitive and thoughtful members of this Legislature. It strikes me that expanding the present Ontario young travellers program to encourage southern-based youngsters to visit the north is a welcome and logical move forward.

It would be one of the more useful in a series of positive initiatives taken by this government to promote northern development in this province. As the members know, of course, I am from southwestern Ontario and it is only fairly recently that I have begun to explore the vast expanses of our province that lie north of the Great Lakes. I am not sure why it is that I waited this long, but the experience has been fantastic.

In the period prior to my election to this Legislature I had been in Sudbury and North Bay many times, but I can think only of two occasions that I have been north or west of those cities. On one occasion, I had a trial in Kapuskasing and I meandered up the eastern side of northeastern Ontario, and on the other occasion I came by train from Banff to Toronto on the CP line. My recollection of that particular trip was that while the Rockies and the Prairies have their own beauty, unquestionably the most beautiful area in Canada is northern Ontario.

I expect that I am not alone in this regard. Certainly I am not alone among the general population of our province. But I would also wager that mine is not an uncommon experience, even among members of this House, as the member for Algoma has been pointing out. For me, as I suppose it is for most southerners, the north was too often perceived as a vast, cold, snow-covered wasteland. I had only a vague idea about who lived there and what they did.

What I have found in the period of time since I have been elected is that there is a series of vibrant and resourceful communities eager to make a contribution to the vitality of the whole province. What I have found as well is that we have a region that is too often left out of the mainstream, a community whose concerns have traditionally been given a low priority by the larger, more populous and more affluent south. So it has been a welcome eye opener to me to see for myself what it had to offer.

I would like to relate back particularly to two visits to the north that I have had in the last year, both of which have had a profound effect on my overall understanding of a variety of issues. Call it a new perspective, if you will, but in any case I am very glad of the opportunity to see things at first hand that so many of us try to understand through news clips and other secondhand reports.

Last summer I was invited by the residents of the village of Temagami, concerned about the impact of restrictions on logging in an area that is dependent on that industry for a livelihood and has been for generations, to visit their village. While I was there I toured their facilities, the Sherman mine as well as the pulp mill, visited with the townspeople, heard how important forestry is to the economic wellbeing of the townspeople. Thereafter, I visited and spent some time with the local organizers of the Temagami Wilderness Society. I saw the trees and the parks and the wildlife, and I saw clear-cut.

I was awed by the beauty of what is there. I was concerned about clear-cut, but overall my visit to the area gave me a much clearer perspective on a very complex range of conflicting needs and competing interests in that community. I only bring this up to illustrate how much more thorough my understanding is, having spent some time in the area talking to the people affected and seeing with my own eyes what previously I had seen only on television.

Also last summer I was the guest of the member for Kenora, visiting in the riding of Kenora in northwestern Ontario. There I visited the Whitedog reserve, discussed with the native people some of their concerns, their relationship with government, good and bad, some of their attitudes and needs for alternative dispute settlement problems. I visited, as well, the mine at Red Lake. I visited the mill in Dryden, and again I saw some examples that concerned me about clear-cut in the forest industry. But the fact of the matter is that while my view of that may be a little different from that of some northerners, it is important that we be involved in that dialogue.

Each of these experiences has impressed upon me a very important lesson. Simply put, there is really no substitute for direct experience in developing a full awareness of anything. Obviously, it is not always possible to rely on the luxury of direct experience, but surely, when the opportunity is available, you should reach out and grab it.

I am certain that intermediate-level students would grab these available opportunities. If they could be provided with a chance to visit our northern communities, to see how the other half lives, works and plays, I am convinced they would jump at that chance. What 12- or 13-year-old would not be thoroughly enthralled at the prospect of going somewhere new and different? And the best part about it is that it would be good for them. I know from personal experience the value of a program that takes people into a new environment and shows them another side of life.

Northerners who have taken

part in the existing program have only good things to report, as far as I know. Surely young people from the south would gain as much. As a matter of fact, an argument could be made that they would gain more from the program, if only because it is much more likely that a northern resident at some stage would have reason, in any event, to come to the south to access services that are not readily available in the north, in contrast to most southerners, who do not have the same requirement to go north.

Just look at the benefits of such interaction at an early stage of these young people’s collective development. They would take a more thorough understanding of the familiarity of this part of our great province into their lives. They would perhaps remember their experiences and appreciate them better, the unique hardships that are faced in northern communities. They would recognize the potential for economic development and growth and help all Ontarians take advantage of the richness of the people and the land. Finally, they would understand the need to promote and ensure that nobody feels he is peripheral to the development of this province.

Surely it is the case, when people are developing and Premiers are talking about the division of this country, that we in this province, who perhaps have the most to lose, stick together. The only way we are going to do it is if we are united and we understand each other. This program would be just the kind of incentive we would need in the south to change our attitudes.

Mr Pollock: I am pleased to take

part in this debate and I want to compliment the member for Port Arthur for bringing it forward. I think it is a worthwhile resolution and I think the schoolchildren from southern Ontario should have the opportunity to go and visit northern Ontario.

I was at a meeting this morning where we were talking about international trade. The meeting was concerned with the Ontario International Corp. They mentioned the fact that when you are travelling abroad you do not even hear about Ontario. Some people know where Toronto is, but they do not even know where Ontario is. I think this is a message we also have to get out. We all here in Ontario have heard about “Ontario -- yours to discover!” and, of course, “Ontario -- Incredible!” but others of our trading nations have never really heard of Ontario in that respect.

There is no question that northern Ontario is a great place to visit. I was at a meeting in Madoc at one time. The Honourable Leo Bernier was speaking at that particular meeting and he told the audience there that he was closer to Halifax, Nova Scotia, than he was to his home in Sioux Lookout. I have also had the privilege of driving out west. It takes you approximately two days to drive through Ontario.

Also, I have visited Science North in Sudbury. It is a great place to visit. I have seen the Big Nickel display at the Sudbury mines and I have had the privilege of seeing the trains that dump the slag from the mines. That is quite a colourful sight, because they drive up on the hill, they dump this red-hot slag, and as it trickles down the hill, it is something to see.

I have had the experience of getting a speeding ticket in northern Ontario, on Highway 11. I have also listened to the tales of the moose hunters and some of their experiences up in northern Ontario. Of course, I have played golf at Minaki Lodge. Some people question Minaki Lodge, but it is really and truly a world-class facility.

I certainly believe that not all the money should be spent right here in Toronto or the greater Metro area. People from all over Ontario pay a sales tax; so some of that money should be spent in northern Ontario and in eastern Ontario.

I fully support this member’s resolution to have schoolchildren go up to northern Ontario and see what is there. I am sure that later on in life they will go back to northern Ontario as tourists, and this would be good for the tourist business in northern Ontario.

There is a good possibility that the next Premier of this province will be from northern Ontario, and I think particularly of North Bay. There is great fishing in northern Ontario. I have had the experience of going fishing in one of those remote areas in northern Ontario, and it was a better, a more pressing, experience than actually going to Florida.

One other experience I had, and I think it is important to mention this at this particular time, was at the unveiling of the Terry Fox memorial just east of Thunder Bay. It was just 10 years ago that Terry Fox was in the process of making his run across Canada. I remember the Lieutenant Governor saying at that particular unveiling that maybe it was meant to be that Terry Fox ended his run there because it was halfway between east and west.

Those are a few of the comments I want to leave with you. Once again, I just want to compliment the member for Port Arthur for bringing this resolution forward.

Mr Brown: I am most happy today to indicate to the member for Port Arthur that I support his resolution. As a member from a northern rural riding, I appreciate his efforts. We as northerners are quite accustomed to the rugged beauty of our land: the literally thousands of lakes, the hardwood and softwood forests, the unforgettable northern lights and the breathtaking landscapes.

However, many children from southern Ontario have yet to experience the north, and some unfortunately never will. It is with this in mind that I must congratulate my colleague the member for Port Arthur for the introduction of this private member’s resolution that would assist the children in southern Ontario with the cost of travelling to the north to learn more about their province. This would also give them a better understanding of the north’s resources, both human and natural, and would help in understanding the great geographical, cultural and economic diversity of the north.

As my colleague has already mentioned, a program, referred to as the Ontario young travellers program, is in place for the students of northern Ontario. Is it not fair that we reciprocate and allow southerners to come north?

In my capacity as a member of this Legislature, I am required to be in southern Ontario virtually every week for several days. On some occasions, my family will come to visit. This gives my children a chance to see what Toronto is about, what southern Ontario is about, what makes this place tick. It would certainly be very good for us to allow southern children to find out what makes northern Ontario tick.

In 1973, when this program was first introduced, it allowed northern students from grades 7 and 8 to get a chance to take in the sights and sounds of Toronto. These students received a subsidy to defray their travelling expenses, and students travelling from more than 1,000 kilometres away received additional funds to take care of their overnight accommodation. In my riding alone, literally thousands of students have visited Queen’s Park and Toronto using this fine program.

An excursion to the north for southerners would enlighten the students as to how we, as northerners, feel about our natural resources and what we draw from them and what contribution those resources make to the provincial economy. Let them learn that our livelihoods are tied to the minerals we mine, the fish we catch, the forests we harvest. Let them learn of our commitment to sustainable development.

I believe strongly, and public opinion polls back this up, that northerners have a stronger sense of environmental issues than any others in the province. Northerners know that once the resource is depleted, there is no more work, there is no more economy and our way of life will disappear.

These types of exchanges between students are not designed to teach the visitor everything about what he or she might like to know; rather, they are meant to give a small flavour of the community. As a member who represents a rural northern Ontario riding, I recognize that it is not possible for students to really get a flavour on a two- or three-day visit, but I think that experiencing our part of the north for just a few days will perk their interest, give them a better understanding and have them return.

A few short years ago I had the opportunity and privilege, as a Rotarian, of hosting an exchange student from Australia. During her three-month stay at our home she became very familiar with and gained a great deal of appreciation for our lifestyle. I believe that exchanges are very important. I am pleased to note that one of the elementary schools in my riding has just recently arranged a trip to Quebec City. When they made the arrangements, they were hoping to take one bus from this small elementary school to Quebec City. The demand to learn about the culture of our neighbouring province was so great that they had to rent two buses; so I believe the interest is there.

I would gladly welcome virtually all students from southern Ontario to my riding of Algoma-Manitoulin. Here they can see the diversity of northern Ontario. They can see the town of Elliot Lake -- small by Ontario standards but large by northern Ontario standards -- and its citizens. They would find that the jewel in the wilderness, as it is referred to, is not unlike most northern Ontario towns, with its friendly people and accommodating atmosphere. They would discover that it is primarily a mining town. They would discover the unique economic challenges that are faced by one-industry mining towns.

If they came to my riding, they could experience a trip to a pulp and paper mill in Espanola, which would be a valuable learning experience. They would come away knowing about a world-class pulp and paper plant that is also world-class environmentally sound. They would learn where the products of their everyday lives are made, and they would know about the people who make them. They would find for themselves that northerners are hardworking and committed individuals with a lifestyle that is both unique and wonderful.

They could also visit Manitoulin Island, where they could see the agricultural communities, they could see our way of life and they could see why so many tourists come to our area, to see the wildlife, to catch fish, to enjoy a setting that I think is unique in Ontario.

In conclusion, I think that, for the betterment of the children of this province, support of this member’s resolution is very important.

Mr J. M. Johnson: In the two minutes that I have, I would like to just commend the member for Port Arthur for this resolution, whose main thrust is to give our young people the opportunity to develop a greater understanding of the diversity of our great province. That is an excellent idea and I fully support it.

Many years ago, when my children were quite young, I and my family used to take summer vacations and we travelled to all parts of this province. Indeed, we travelled from coast to coast, but the highlights were our trips to the north, which provided an opportunity for my young children to see what it was like in the north country.

I recall the first time that we travelled right through the west, through northern Ontario to the Manitoba border. From my home town of Mount Forest it was practically the exact distance to the Manitoba border as it is to the Florida border. I could equate to my children the fact that we can travel through all the states to the Florida border, which are several, or go the same distance across through the north to the Manitoba border.

As my friend and colleague the member for Hastings-Peterborough mentioned, the vastness of this province is hard to understand unless you have actually travelled it. To spend two or three days driving 700 miles a day to reach the western border indicates that there is a lot to see in this great province of ours.

I have had the opportunity in the past to fish up in Moosonee and Winisk and some of the places quite far up north, and the fishing is fantastic. This morning, by coincidence, we had an opportunity to meet with the member for Huron, who is the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Natural Resources and who is conducting a review of the fish stock in this province. I would heartily recommend that we should take a trip. Maybe the members of the committee would invite the members of the Legislature to travel to the north and try their luck at fishing.

In the eight seconds left, I would just like to say that I support the comments of the member for Hastings-Peter-borough about its being time for a Premier from the north.

Mr Kozyra: It is very gratifying to have this unanimous support from members of the three parties. I would like specifically to thank the members who spoke so thoughtfully and so supportively of this resolution, the member for Algoma, the member for Simcoe East, the member for Hastings-Peter-borough, the member for Wellington, the member for Kitchener and the member for Algoma-Manitoulin. I would also like to thank the intern who is working in my office for this term, Shaun Cody, for his research and input into this resolution.

The member for Algoma made some interesting recommendations, and I will be gladly following them up. The improvements he spoke to are very valid. At the present time, a full-fare ticket from Thunder Bay to Toronto is over $500, more than it might cost to go to Europe or California. This is the kind of thing that people travelling to the north are faced with. From Kenora to Toronto the fare is about $680.

I am sorry to hear that the member for Hastings-Peterborough got a speeding ticket in the north, but perhaps he was going too fast to take in our wonderful, majestic northern beauty and rightfully deserved one.

The member for Algoma also mentioned a lack perhaps of members seeing the north. I would like to point out that at least the entire Liberal caucus has been at Quetico. They found that a very valuable experience.

I think we all appreciate the value of travel. I think it is important that we start with our own great province and expand this program so that the north is taken into account. I would say that networking is possible. Where you get five schools from a city, they could travel to these five areas and then share their experience and get an experience of the whole north.

Finally, let’s not forget that children are our most valuable natural resource and this opportunity to travel is one of the finest things we could do.

Motion agreed to.

ROYAL ASSENT

The Deputy Speaker: I beg to inform the House that in the name of Her Majesty the Queen, His Honour the Lieutenant Governor has been pleased to assent to certain bills in his chambers.

Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees: The following are the titles of the bills to which His Honour has assented:

Bill 115,

An Act to amend the Representation Act, 1986;

Bill Pr8,

An Act respecting National Capital Children’s Oncology Care Inc;

Bill Pr36,

An Act to revive The P & P Murray Foundation;

Bill Pr40,

An Act to revive The Immanuel Christian School Society of East Toronto;

Bill Pr44,

An Act respecting the Royal Canadian Legion;

Bill Pr47,

An Act respecting Lake of the Woods District Hospital;

Bill Pr 49,

An Act to revive 393598 Ontario Limited;

Bill Pr55,

An Act to revive Association of Stoney Lake Cottagers Inc;

Bill Pr57,

An Act respecting the City of North Bay;

Bill Pr58,

An Act to revive Gursikh Sabha Canada;

Bill Pr61,

An Act to incorporate The City of Chatham Foundation;

Bill Pr62,

An Act respecting the City of Toronto.

The House recessed at 1204.

The House resumed at 1330.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

RELIGIOUS EDUCATION

Mr R. F. Johnston: I have a letter here from the Archbishop of Niagara, Archbishop Bothwell, regarding his concern and the concern of many people that the report from Dr Glenn Watson about religion in the public schools has still not been released by this government, even though it has had it in its possession since January of this year and it promised that it would be released by the end of March, after it said that it could not do it in February because it had some problems with translation. It is still not here today and there are many people concerned, even people like myself whose religious affiliation is fairly obscure in terms of trying to divine what it might be.

There are those of us who think that a series of governments that have not changed curriculum on religious education since 1949 might be excused being a few months late again in even bringing forward a report, but when I get messages regularly through to my office about groups like the Gideons society continually bringing forward New Testaments and offering them to every child in a class in various schools around the province, and we hear still that the ruling of the Supreme Court is being flouted in certain areas by certain denominations that are trying to proselytize a particular point of view, I say it is time that this report was brought forward so we can finally update and upgrade and make multiculturally sensitive the religious education we expect to see in the public education system of the province.

I call on the government to bring it forward at the earliest opportunity.

AGRICULTURAL FUNDING

Mr J. M. Johnson: I would like to bring to the attention of the House a very serious concern I have relating to the farmers of Ontario and certainly many farmers in my riding of Wellington. It is the urgent need for the reinstatement of the Ontario family farm interest rate reduction program, OFFIR, which is needed more so now than ever before.

As members will be aware, financial analysts are predicting that a prime lending rate of 15 per cent, the highest since the 1981-82 recession, is possible as prices and the Canadian dollar continue to rise. Our farmers cannot pay any higher interest rates. The Farm Debt Review Board recorded a significant increase in the number of farmers in financial difficulty during the past year, and with the continued fall in commodity prices and increasing interest rates this trend will continue and in fact escalate.

As my colleague the member for Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry stated in the House yesterday, “Farmers need a farm tax reduction program that makes sense and is not simply an election gimmick which will disappear after one year.”

The Ontario Federation of Agriculture, the Ontario Cattlemen’s Association and the Ontario Corn Producers’ Association have all made recommendations on what initiatives the government might take in addressing this issue. I hope the Treasurer has included in his budget a financial support program that will address this issue.

YOUTH GANGS

Mr Faubert: On 10 April, I held a public forum on community safety. The emergence of youth gang activity in Metropolitan Toronto, which became prominent starting in early 1988, was the most discussed concern. As one of the first representatives to raise this issue publicly in the fall of 1988, I remain concerned that the need to promote increased awareness of this issue among our youth, parents and teachers has still to be effectively addressed.

I commend, however, the Metropolitan Toronto council and the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force for taking a preventive approach to the problem. By educating youth, through the schools, on the consequences of participation in youth gangs, they hope to reduce youth gang involvement at its source before the damage is done.

Our young people must be made aware of the dangers, the consequences and indeed the penalties that can result from participation in such gang activity. The teachers and parents in our communities must be educated in how to recognize and deal with youth involved in gang activities.

In Vancouver a number of innovative preventive approaches are being taken, such as radio programs, newspaper articles, pamphlets to assist parents and school boards, theatrical projects dealing with the consequences of youth gang participation, short TV programs and anti-youth-gang video projects. These projects should be given every consideration by all levels of government serving Metropolitan Toronto.

Surely there is more we could be doing. I encourage our government to consider some of these innovative approaches to resolve the issue.

DOCTORS’ FEES

Mr Reville: I was reading Hansard this morning, as is my wont, and I was reading volume 2 of the debates from 1986 and 1987. I had got up to page 1796 at 11:50 am of that day, and this is what was said, “No one in this province will pay more for insured medical services than the

schedule of benefits permits.”

There it is in black and white. It must be true. It is in Hansard. Yet when I finished reading my Hansard, I read, oh no, the Globe and Mail and discovered that 1,144 people indeed paid more for insured medical services than the

schedule of benefits permitted in the last year, and they paid that amount of money to 193 physicians.

When the Ministry of Health was asked why it did not do something about this, it said, “Oh well, we docked the money from their cheques.” This government has got to take the cake for being one of the larger wet noodles around.

EARTH DAY

Mr Sterling: This Sunday 22 April is Earth Day, a celebration of the earth and a call to citizens of the world to act on behalf of the environment. This year, 1990, marks the 20th anniversary of the first and only observance of Earth Day by about 20 million in the United States. Their actions in 1970 had many positive results, including the creation of the US Environmental Protection Agency.

At that time environmental problems did not seem very pressing. We were much too busy with other concerns. Now we realize that the health of our planet is a critical issue requiring immediate attention. Environmentalists decided to commemorate the 1970 Earth Day by organizing a worldwide event focused on the environment and make the 1990s the turnaround decade to reverse the damage already done to our air, water and land.

Earth Day will be celebrated in 118 countries around the world from Australia to Zimbabwe, and 100 billion people are expected to participate. The slogan is, “Who says you can’t change the world?” Organizers want to make this a decade of environmental activism that will promote our understanding of nature so that we can work in harmony with it.

Here in Ontario most communities across the province have planned various events for Saturday and Sunday and next week. We urge everyone to get involved and find out what can be done individually and collectively to save our planet.

INTEREST RATES

Mr Matrundola: I am appealing to our government to call upon Prime Minister Mulroney, Finance Minister Wilson, Bank of Canada Governor John Crow and the federal government to reduce interest rates.

On 5 April the prime rate hit 14.25 per cent. Today it may reach 15 per cent, with most of the public paying 18 per cent.

Crow blames the inflation rate, but an inflation rate of 5.5 per cent is quite reasonable. We have an average jobless rate of 7.2 per cent across Canada. Yes, Ontario, as the business heart of the country, still commands the strongest economy with an unemployment rate of 5.3 per cent. But what about New Brunswick with an unemployment rate of 11.9 per cent, or Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland with rates of 14.2 per cent and 14.7 per cent respectively?

This idea of zero inflation is totally insane because the repercussions are damaging and irreparable. If we allow Ontario’s unemployment rate to reach over eight per cent, then some Canadian provinces may reach over 20 per cent. It is my considered opinion that this is like performing a complete blood transfusion. When people need a complete blood transfusion, they must be very sick.

It is clear that John Crow, Wilson and Mulroney want, for the sake of zero inflation, the Canadian people on the breadline. I submit that John Crow is a scarecrow, and we must let those thick heads of Crow, Wilson and Mulroney join the breadlines themselves.

The Speaker: The member’s time has expired.

Mr Matrundola: We must let them have some of their own medicine so they will understand what it is like to be without work and with the obligation of feeding a family.

The Speaker: Thank you; the member for Scarborough West.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr R. F. Johnston: Not a second too soon, Mr Speaker; I feared implosion there.

Last night I was at a meeting where there was almost an explosion at the Toronto Board of Education. Hundreds of very concerned parents came out to try to understand why it is that they should have to pay all the costs of education for their children in their area.

Hon Mr Sorbara: Is this Blazing Saddles? Is this the real Blazing Saddles?

Mr R. F. Johnston: It is the same kind of thing that Mel Brooks’s protégé over there wants me to talk about, which is happening in Ottawa, which is to say that the board of education there is in exactly the same position and has been considering major cut to kids with learning disabilities and the services of psychologists on the board.

The same kind of problem has recently come up with the Metropolitan Toronto School Board, where had it not been for a plea from poverty groups from Scarborough and other places, it also would have cut back programs to try to keep its increases this year down below the double digits that it looks like many boards of education are going to have to face.

The reason for this is that this government is now paying only 40 per cent of the cost of education, down another percentage point from last year alone, beating the Tories at their own record for cutting back their provincial percentage. This Treasurer is now, in another few days, going to come before us with a balanced budget, a few million dollars in food for hungry kids in the school system, and is basically balancing that budget on the backs of school boards and kids who need a proper education in the province of Ontario.

VICTIMS OF CRIME

Mr Jackson: On Tuesday the Attorney General informed the House about activities his ministry would be involved in to mark Community Justice Week. While recognizing that increasing public awareness about our justice system is important, we must also recognize that the most crucial justice issue today is the specific one involving the rights of victims of crime.

Crime victims help our justice system achieve convictions in 60 per cent of all crimes. The justice system would simply not be able to function without them, and yet so little has been done on their behalf. Instead of emphasizing mock trials, the Attorney General should be responding to the situation of continuous victimization of citizens involved in real trials who look on helplessly as their assailants are freed on bail to walk the streets to harass their victims once more.

How will Community Justice Week assist the children of a family in my riding who suffered incestuous abuse by their father and who were then thwarted in their attempts to gain justice from our legal system, or a teenager, who has attempted suicide because she cannot obtain counselling to help her heal the psychological wounds criminally inflicted upon her?

These are problems that Community Justice Week neither addresses nor resolves. As one of only two provinces that still do not have a crime victims’ bill of rights, Ontario is lagging behind in this important area.

On behalf of the victims of crime in this province, I call on the Attorney General and the Liberal MPPs to stop their boycott of a victims’ bill of rights. It would indeed be a fitting tribute to Community Justice Week if the Attorney General would ensure that Bill 113 is sent to the justice committee as soon as possible and given a speedy passage into law.

ANNIVERSARY OF KATYN FOREST MASSACRE

Mr Ruprecht: This Sunday will be a very sad day for Polish Canadians. On 22 April the Polish Canadian Congress will be commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Katyn forest massacre, where 15,000 Polish officers were murdered.

This event is recognized by historians as one of the most tragic mass murders committed against a nation that was totally helpless and defenceless. The perpetrators now recognize that the Russian secret police was to blame for it. Until last week the Soviet government did not accept the responsibility. We hope that today the Soviet government will have the courage to accept responsibility for other crimes against helpless victims.

As we mourn this Sunday with those who lost their loved ones, let us remember that the Polish Canadian Congress encourages all interested parties to attend. At 11:30 in the morning on Sunday will be the mass at St Casimir’s Church. Then at 1 pm will be the memoria1 March to the Katyn monument on Roncesvalles Avenue at King and Queen streets. At 4:30 there will be a commemorative dinner at the Polish Cultural Centre on Beverley Street. I would encourage all of us to attend.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

Hon Mr Sweeney: In my capacity as Minister of Municipal Affairs I would like to make a statement on openness and accountability in municipal government.

Ontario’s 839 municipalities differ in size and structure, from Metropolitan Toronto with more than two million people to Cockburn Island with only three, but all municipalities share the same basic principles of serving their residents.

We need to ensure that municipal councils, school boards and municipal agencies, boards and commissions continue to have the confidence of their public. They must be as open, clearly understandable and as accountable as possible. That is why the government, with the assistance of municipal leaders, is embarking on three initiatives to ensure openness, clarity and accountability in local government.

First, I intend to introduce legislation later this afternoon to ensure that the public’s business is conducted in public and not behind closed doors. This legislation will set out clear guidelines to ensure that local government meetings are open to the public. Exemptions to allow private meetings will be limited and clearly defined.

This legislation also deals with another aspect of municipal government in which openness is crucial, and that is the sale of surplus assets, especially land. The legislation will require municipalities to adopt bylaws establishing their own procedures for both the conduct of meetings and the sale of assets. This will ensure that people have an opportunity to know and understand the rules by which their local government operates and can hold their representatives to account if these rules are not followed.

I am very aware of the diverse needs of Ontario’s municipalities. This legislation provides municipalities with flexibility to tailor procedural bylaws to fit their own needs, as long as they adhere to principles outlined in the legislation. For example, the legislation requires that when selling land, municipalities obtain at least one appraisal from an accredited appraiser, but I would expect that many municipalities will impose even more stringent rules on themselves.

Another important aspect of this legislation involves housing. We are all aware that it is necessary for all levels of government to work together to ensure that the people of Ontario who need our assistance have adequate homes. For that reason, the legislation will require that the province be given the first right of refusal to purchase surplus municipal land being sold in certain high-growth municipalities where the need for affordable housing is greatest. The province already has a similar policy to allow municipalities to acquire provincial land.

I intend to consult with municipalities to determine the best way to implement this policy to serve the needs of municipalities and the provincial government.

The second initiative is designed to assure members of the public that their municipal representatives are acting in their best interests at all times. Following the 1988 municipal elections, ministry staff met with municipalities, municipal organizations and other interest groups across the province to consult on improvements to the electoral process. The reports on municipal elections by the Association of Municipalities of Ontario and the Association of Municipal Clerks and Treasurers provided an important focus of discussion for this consultation.

Staff are reviewing the current legislation on municipal election contributions and spending, and later this year I will introduce legislation to address a number of concerns expressed after the 1988 municipal elections. The new legislation will also improve the rules regarding how much money contributors may donate to municipal candidates, and it will deal as well with the surplus funds many candidates are left with at the end of a campaign.

The third and final initiative in this package involves reviewing municipal conflict-of-interest legislation. I believe that the citizens of Ontario must be reassured of the integrity of their local government, and the rules on conflict of interest must be clear and easily understood by local representatives and the public.

I am releasing today a discussion paper on this topic this afternoon. This paper represents a framework to facilitate discussion of this complex issue. It examines issues and new policy options but does not make specific recommendations.

I will be appointing a consultation committee which will receive advice from individuals and groups on the paper. This committee will be chaired by Cy Armstrong. Mr Armstrong has had a long and distinguished career in municipal government. Most recently he was the city manager of the city of Edmonton, and for many years before that he was the chief administrative officer of the region of Hamilton-Wentworth.

I have had the opportunity to discuss these initiatives with Grant Hopcroft, the president of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario. I am pleased to recognize Mr Hopcroft in the east gallery. The association has forwarded a list of representatives to sit on the consultation committee. We are also inviting the Ontario Press Council, the Ontario School Trustees’ Council and the Law Society of Upper Canada to be represented on the committee.

The committee will hold meetings in communities across Ontario, and I urge municipal councillors and members of the public to make their views known to the committee.

These initiatives and the new freedom of information legislation for municipalities, which takes effect next year, have one goal: to ensure that the level of government that is closest to the people is as open, as well understood and as accountable, as possible.

NATIONAL CONSUMER WEEK / SEMAINE NATIONALE DES CONSOMMATEURS

Hon Mr Sorbara: It is my pleasure to inform the members of the House that the last full week of April will be known this year and in future as National Consumer Week. This year the dates are 23 April to 29 April. This marks the inauguration of this event on a national scale, co-ordinated by consumer affairs departments in the provinces, the territories and, of course, the federal government.

This year’s theme is “Team up for a stronger marketplace! Business, consumers and government.” It is a message that demonstrates just how the marketplace works and recognizes the important part played by everyone in obtaining an open and fair marketplace.

Les célébrations de 1990 se dérouleront autour du theme «Faisons équipe pour un marché dynamique : consommateurs, entreprises, gouvernements». II s’agit alors d’un message qui montre bien à quel point les forces vives de l’économie sont à l’oeuvre et reconnaissent l’importance du rôle que chacun joue en faveur d’un marché ouvert et equitable.

In proclaiming National Consumer Week, I am pleased to have representatives of the Ontario branch of the Consumers’ Association of Canada and the Ontario Chamber of Commerce joining us in recognizing this event. I would refer members of the House to the gallery. Joining us today are Joan Huzar, president of the Ontario wing of the Consumers’ Association of Canada, and Linda Matthews, president of the Ontario Chamber of Commerce.

It is significant that we begin a national consumer awareness effort in the year designated as International Year of Literacy. With an estimated five million Canadians considered functionally illiterate, my ministry is even more conscious of the enormous number of vulnerable consumers who need to be informed and educated in special ways to function adequately in today’s marketplace. To do the job, we look to the support of all members and the help of such organizations as are represented here today.

I am also pleased to provide my honourable colleagues with a copy of our consumer week kit. Members will find those kits in their mailboxes downstairs.

Finally, it is also my pleasure to invite all members to join me and representatives of the Consumers’ Association of Canada and the Ontario Chamber of Commerce in room 113 following question period for a reception which will be for the celebration of National Consumer Week. As I said, members of the two associations will be there, along with other associations representing the groups that our ministry works with.

RESPONSES

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

Mr B. Rae: I would like to respond to the statement by the Minister of Municipal Affairs concerning the municipal conflict-of-interest discussion paper.

I should say to the minister first of all that I am surprised and disappointed that on page 12 of the background document the paper would say: “Some concerns not addressed in this paper include: What conflict-of-interest rules if any should apply to municipal staff?” and “Should the act cover other benefits besides money?”

I find it incomprehensible that the government would be talking about a coherent approach to the conflicts of interest within a municipality without being able to answer clearly in the affirmative what conflict-of-interest rules, if any, should apply to municipal staff. It is difficult for me to understand, for example, how somebody who has a role in planning or in development would not be clearly covered by conflict-of-interest rules and guidelines with respect to his advice and participation. I find it incomprehensible that this would not be seen as a critical area for public policy.

I might also say I find it a little strange that the writer of the background paper would ask the question, “Should the act cover other benefits besides money?”

Interjection.

Mr B. Rae: My colleague the member for Scarborough West, in his inimitable fashion, says, “Should it refer to refrigerators?” The point is, of course, it needs to refer to any benefit that is being transferred to an individual or to any benefit that an individual might receive.

I think the government has to understand the questions we have raised in this House over the last number of years on this very critical question of conflict of interest. The major issues that have been raised by the way in which decisions have been taken in certain municipalities and the extraordinary pressure that is brought to bear on municipalities by the development process itself and by the development industry have got to be understood. We have to have laws to provide that protection and to build that protection into our decision-making process.

You do not have to be a genius to understand that in southern Ontario in the last decade we have seen one of the greatest building and expansion booms in our history. I would say there has never been a time in Canadian history when a boom of this kind has not been accompanied by potential and real conflicts of interest. Anybody who reads Canadian history would understand that is the temptation that is there, that is the process that is there. We are dealing with human beings, and that is the problem we face.

We have faced this problem in a major way in the greater Toronto area in the last few years, but that is not alone. We have faced problems with respect to the financing of municipal election campaigns. We have to come to terms with the fact that the reality of municipal politics today is that the financing of municipal politics is controlled basically, in a majority sense, by one industry and one industry alone, and that is the one industry that stands to benefit by decisions that are taken at the municipal level. We have to clean up that process, we have to clean up that financing and we have to ensure that the laws are in place which guarantee that the public interest is protected.

This government has consistently stonewalled the idea of a serious public inquiry which would deal with the adequacy of municipal conflict of interest, which would deal with the adequacy of the Planning Act and which would deal with the adequacy of regional government as to whether it is strong enough and capable enough to deal with the degree of development that is taking place.

The kinds of things that have taken place in communities in this area and across the province can be protected against, but only if the government has the determination to do it. I do not think this discussion paper reveals a sufficient determination on the part of government, and we want to see action taken now. We still want to see that public inquiry put in place.

Mr Sterling: At the outset, in talking about municipal conflict of interest and about the freedom of information laws, which have now been passed and which will come into effect at our municipal level, I would like to say to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, that the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act for the province of Ontario has been an abysmal failure. It is now harder to obtain information from the Ontario government than it was before that act was passed. We wait longer for information than was the case before the freedom of information act was passed.

I do hope that the act which was passed by this Legislature for municipalities will be respected by the municipalities when put into place and implemented. This government has used the freedom of information act for the province as a stalling tactic to the opposition, to the members of the press and to the members of the public who want to get information. It is almost routine that the response from every ministry, when you ask for a piece of information, is a request for an extension of the time to respond. The response you get almost always requires further correspondence. Civil servants, on the instructions of the ministers of this government, are using it as a secrecy act.

Secondly, with regard to the Members’ Conflict of Interest Act, which governs this Legislative Assembly and members of the cabinet of Ontario, to my knowledge, there has not been one reference of conflict of interest to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner in this province under our act, the reason being that every MPP in this Legislature knows that the act is a shield for the government in the way that the act was constructed by this government.

In other words, if you bring a complaint to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner, then before you submit your application for a review, you can bank on him whitewashing what the government will do, because the government has constructed the legislation in such a manner that it is a whitewash.

If you refer a matter to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner and he comes back with either a negative or a positive answer, the legislation forbids a committee of this Legislature to look into that matter after the Conflict of Interest Commissioner has looked at it. No other piece of legislation in the province has ever forbidden a committee of the Legislature to look at a matter that is of concern to the citizens of Ontario.

I only hope that the minister, when he looks at the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act, will construct a reasonable and meaningful piece of legislation, a piece of legislation which will in fact protect the public.

In conclusion I would like to say --

Hon Mr Scott: The definition is: If Normie can’t get the document, the act’s wrong. Right.

Mr Sterling: If I can speak over the interjections of the Attorney General, who is chagrined that I have brought these matters to light at this time -- the press knows those two provincial acts are a farce -- I only hope that the minister will in fact make meaningful pieces of legislation with regard to the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act when it is brought to this House.

NATIONAL CONSUMER WEEK

Mr Cousens: I just wish the government would listen to the member for Carleton, because he has some good advice for them. I would like to compliment the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations for finally recognizing consumers with National Consumer Week. Maybe at this point this government could do something to recognize the role played by our agricultural community in producing the food we eat and help it produce more at good prices.

Maybe the government could do something about the interest rates. If we are going to buy something and we have to borrow money -- I know we have to borrow money -- what is the government doing to help bring interest rates down? If it is going to be consumer week and the government wants to get buyers out there doing something, then it should help do something so the people can afford it without having to pay taxes and pay high interest. Let’s do something together with the federal government and do something to improve it.

If the government wants consumer week, let’s have Sunday as a day off instead of having a law that is not working. Here the government is saying, “Let’s support the consumers,” yet its laws and what it is doing are making a mess of this province.

ORAL QUESTIONS

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mr B. Rae: My question is to the Minister of Housing. The minister received a 12-point action plan from the Basic Poverty Action Group, which has been organized to try to bring the world of poverty and food banks to an end. The first four points dealt specifically with housing, talking about the need for a commitment to new housing, a housing-first policy for all provincially owned land, protection of existing affordable housing and bringing in a land speculation tax.

When the minister received that from Rev Bill Major, executive director of the Downtown Churchworkers Association, he said to the good reverend, “The issues which you identified in your letter are not directly within my mandate.” I want to ask the minister how he could deny that recognition of housing as a basic social right in this province is an essential part of his mandate. Why would he be trying to get out from under that most important obligation of his?

Hon Mr Sweeney: My recollection of my response with respect to that particular phraseology referred to the other parts of the letter, and certainly not to the housing components. The honourable member will be well aware of the fact that I have met with the Metropolitan Toronto coalition on a number of occasions for different reasons and have clearly indicated what this province is involved in with respect to non-profit housing, the use of government lands, affordable housing being built on those lands and the allocations we have made for co-op housing, municipal non-profit and private non-profit. All of those are clearly within my mandate, and I have discussed them with the coalition.

Mr B. Rae: If the Seaton plan is any indication of where this government is going when it comes to affordable housing, then I can say the government has clearly abandoned its obligations with respect to affordable housing. That is obvious; that is perfectly obvious.

I have a specific question to ask the minister. There are 71,000 people, or at least 41,000 households, now on the waiting list for financially assisted housing across the province. The vacancy rate across the province is 0.8 per cent, or four fifths of one per cent. We still have no commitment from this government in terms of the extension of the Homes Now program. Can the minister stand in his place today and give us a commitment that there will be new moneys available for the Homes Now program extending past 1993 so we will have new supply coming on stream well into the I 990s?

Hon Mr Sweeney: The honourable member rightly indicates the waiting list, but he ignores the fact that over the last four and a half years of this government we have put in excess of 60,000 affordable units on the market and that the other 30,000 of Homes Now are currently in process. Granted, a relatively small percentage is actually complete and in operation, but the bulk of it by far, I think, with the exception of about 2,000 units, has been allocated and is either under construction or under way in some form right at the present time.

That will give us 90,000 units in this province by the year 1992-93, as against the 70,000 figure he mentioned, and correctly mentioned that particular figure.

With respect to Seaton, the honourable member will be well aware of the fact that when I announced that particular project I indicated there would be a significant affordable component. At the present time, all the provincial pieces of land we have put on the market have had in excess of a 50 per cent to 60 per cent affordable component. Seaton will be no less than that.

Mr B. Rae: The fact remains that when it comes to financially assisted housing in the province there is still an enormous, incredible waiting list. The minister knows it and every member in this House knows it, even in terms of the case work that each of us has to do.

My final question to the minister is this: He will know, because I am sure he has met with the Basic Poverty Action Group about this particular issue, that as a result of the Rupert Hotel fire in this city just a few short weeks ago there has grown a movement of people determined to effect a conversion of those buildings and rooming houses into non-profit and co-operative buildings. They will be operated on a non-profit basis so that we will be able to maintain standards and be able to ensure the safety of people who are living in rooming houses.

The last time the minister met with these groups, I understand, he told them there were no funds available for such conversions. I want to ask the minister today, can he stand in his place and ensure that people who are living close to homelessness, who are being affected by speculation in the downtown cores of many of our cities across this province, will be able to live in a place that is decent and that is not run on the basis of speculation but is run on a non-profit basis?

Hon Mr Sweeney: The honourable member may very well be able to say that we are not allocating sufficient resources, but let me share with him, as I have shared with his colleague before, that when this government took office, the total allocation for supported housing in Ontario was $140 million. Today it is $340 million, and by the end of 1992-93 it will be $900 million. That is almost a fivefold increase. So the member can clearly indicate that we may not be doing enough, but he cannot say that we are not doing a very significant amount. I can also point out, as I have also told his colleague, that we are doing more in Ontario than all of the rest of Canada put together.

The other point I would make to the honourable member is that I have met with representatives of the Rupert Hotel Coalition and I have clearly indicated to them that we are prepared to work with them. I have assigned a member of my staff to work with their committee, to involve them in all of the resources that are available. I have indicated that the non-profit allocations and commitments that we are making to the Metro area can be used for this purpose. I have also indicated that we can use our low-rise rehabilitation program for that purpose. I have also indicated that we can use our convert-to-rent program for that purpose.

SOFT DRINK CONTAINERS

Mrs Grier: My questions are for the Minister of the Environment and they are about soft drink containers. Yesterday the minister confirmed that the major emphasis of his waste management policy was recycling and that the major prop in that policy was the blue box system. We know that when the ministry made a deal in 1985 with the soft drink industry that had it contributing to blue boxes, part of that arrangement was that soft drinks could be sold in aluminium cans. Since then, aluminium cans have generated about 42 per cent of the revenue from the blue box program.

We have today received confirmation from the Recycling Council of Ontario that Coca-Cola, which is the major user of aluminium cans, is very likely in 1991 to switch back to steel cans. This means that half the revenue from the blue box program is gone.

Can the minister confirm on behalf of his government, seeing that this program is such a major plank in its policy, that if that revenue shortfall occurs there will be a commitment to make up the revenue from the ministry, not on the backs of the municipalities?

Hon Mr Bradley: The member has been waiting, I think, for about three years for an opportunity to attack the blue box program in Ontario. But the outstanding success of the blue box program has not allowed her to do so over that period of time, and the growing success --

Interjections.

Hon Mr Bradley: The member can get involved in dogma. The member can get involved in what she considers to be purity. What we are dealing with in this program is attempting to get as much of the material that would go either to incinerators or to landfills into those blue boxes. In fact, that is exactly what is happening.

What the member is talking about is approximately one per cent of the waste stream that is going into the blue box but, in addition to that, for household waste we also have another 13 per cent. So you are getting 14 times what you would otherwise get. In other words, we have a practical program that people from around the world are looking at -- people who have tried other methods of dealing with waste and have abandoned them or are about to abandon them because they see the results we are getting. That is what we really have to look at in Ontario:

What are the best results? Not politically what looks the best, because I know what looks the best politically. I have had it put to me many times and I know how attractive that is.

Mrs Grier: I suspect the minister would have been dreadfully disappointed if I had not asked the question and allowed him to get that off his chest. It was obvious he had been practising it for quite some time.

I have never attacked the blue box program. I have attacked a government that has one policy, recycling, and is content with a target of 14 per cent reduction in garbage instead of looking at reusing and reducing before it starts to recycle.

The minister announced in February, with the usual fanfare, that the grocery industry had come aboard the blue box program and Ontario Multi-Material Recycling Inc 2 was going to have a major contribution from the grocery industry. Can the minister tell the House whether his cave-in on the question of refillable bottles was in any way connected to that contribution and commitment from the grocery industry?

Hon Mr Bradley: The contribution, or the OMMRI 2 process, has been in discussion for a period of time, because the member, I remember, asked in the standing committee on estimates about this, whether we were going to have an OMMRI 2, and I indicated we would. Of course, there were a number of parties, including the newspapers of the province, that made major contributions, and others who made a contribution. We would expect that many more people are going to be coming on line making a contribution because of the fact that they are producing substances that ultimately --

Mr B. Rae: We are always looking for contributions.

Hon Mr Bradley: The New Democratic Party, says the leader of the NDP, is always looking for contributions, and we will send them over there.

What I find interesting about the other subject is, I can recall when there was an issue going on whether aluminium cans would be allowed in the box or would not be allowed in the blue box, but the members from Hamilton were extremely concerned about this because of the jobs in Hamilton. In fact, there was a provision in the beginning that aluminium cans could not even come on stream. Now the member is telling me -- and I would be interested because I know the member for Hamilton East works hard on behalf of his constituents and he is a strong supporter of an industry which is so important to his community.

I know very well that he would be speaking on their behalf. So I am interested to hear why the member would now be looking with chagrin –

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mrs Grier: I am sorry, Mr Speaker, my leader advised me to use a word that I will not use.

Mr B. Rae: It is not recyclable.

Mrs Grier: Suffice it to say that the minister’s verbosity is designed to cover up the fact that his policy is totally dependent on the whim of a single industry, and if that industry pulls out, the blue box program is going to collapse and he is desperate to keep it going, at least until after the next election.

If this program is so wonderful and so widely accepted and so widely copied, can the minister explain and can he tell us what response he has made to the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, the municipalities being the agencies that implement the blue box program? At the AMO convention last August, no less than three resolutions were passed resolving that the provincial government be urged to put a refundable deposit on beverage containers, that a refundable deposit fee be instigated and that the government should prohibit the sale of non-returnable drink containers.

If it is such a wonderful program and so secure that it is going to go on for ever, can the minister explain this lack of support from the municipalities, which are the agents of this program?

Hon Mr Bradley: I find it interesting, because on the Recycling Advisory Committee, which made a unanimous recommendation to me on this -- that is where this came from -- the latest development is it said, in effect, you should put the emphasis where it is practical; that is, you cannot tell people how much they are going to sell but you can tell them what they must make available for sale, and that is the emphasis. There are municipal representatives on the Recycling Advisory Committee, there are environmental representatives on that, there are representatives from a wide field on that. They are the ones who recommended it to me.

I ask the member, when she is talking about the blue box program, is she going to scrap the blue box program in Ontario? Is that what she is telling the people of this province? I do not think so. I can tell the member that, overall, our recycling efforts will have close to $55 million in this particular year. While we have achieved 14 per cent of household wastes now, our goals overall are 25 per cent by 1992 and 50 per cent by the year 2000. Those goals have in fact been adopted by environment ministers across Canada, so what the member is attacking is the best recycling program in North America.

Hon Mr Scott: Are there any other subjects you want to take up today?

PATRICIA STARR INQUIRY

Mr Brandt: I am almost encouraged to ask the Attorney General a question, he is in such a spirited mood, and perhaps I will. Since the Attorney General is so anxious to participate in the debate, I wonder if the Attorney General could indicate whether he has had an opportunity to look at a six-point program of recommendations that I made with respect to the Houlden inquiry, six points that I suggested to the government, through the Premier, that may be an adequate response to the problem that developed with respect to the Houlden inquiry and the Supreme Court decision.

Has the Attorney General in fact looked at those six points? Is his government prepared to act on any or all of them and, if not, does he have another alternative?

Hon Mr Scott: I have looked at them.

Mr Brandt: There were a number of questions and I expected a more spirited response from the Attorney General since he --

Interjections.

Mr Brandt: The Attorney General was so anxious to engage in debate today that I thought perhaps he would have something more substantive to say in connection with my question.

If in fact he has reviewed the six suggestions put forward, would he specifically respond to suggestion 3, which relates to the disposition of the evidence in the Houlden inquiry? Could he indicate to this House where that evidence is at the present time and who in fact has access to the evidence that was brought from the Houlden inquiry?

Hon Mr Scott: The material accumulated by the Houlden inquiry, I am advised, is under lock and key in the premises that were occupied by the Houlden inquiry.

Mr Brandt: If I might, going back to the problem that arises as a result of the Supreme Court decision, the Houlden inquiry has been determined by the Supreme Court to be disallowed as a result of the complications which we have in fact discussed in this House. It is the view of my party and of many people outside of this Legislative Assembly that in fact another response, in addition to the OPP investigation, is necessary in order to get to some of the very substantive issues that were being reviewed during the course of that inquiry.

Is it the intention of the government of Ontario to do anything other than to hope this problem simply goes away, or is the Attorney General prepared to take any action along the lines of the six recommendations that I made?

Hon Mr Scott: As I have said to the honourable member on a number of occasions, the problem that is presented by the Supreme Court of Canada decision -- and I think we had better understand that the Supreme Court of Canada decision changed the law with respect to royal commission inquiries in Canada -- is that it will be extremely difficult, perhaps impossible, to conduct, under whatever terms of reference used, a criminal investigation in which allegedly accused persons have certain rights not to incriminate themselves at the same time as you conduct an investigation by royal commission in which there is no such protection.

That is the dilemma the Supreme Court of Canada sought to grapple with.

At the present time, as the honourable member knows, a joint OPP-Metropolitan Toronto Police Force, I think, task force is engaged in examining questions of criminality that were before that commission. It has been ongoing for some time.

When the police make their report, we will be able to determine whether charges will be laid. If charges are laid, I have undertaken to the House on more than one occasion that they will be prosecuted as effectively and as vigorously and as quickly as we can possibly do so.

Mr Brandt: Well, that response did not get much applause from the Attorney General’s side of the House, I notice.

[Applause]

The Speaker: Do you have a question, and to which minister?

Mr Brandt: I note that the applause is for my second question.

CHILDREN’S MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Brandt: I would like to direct my second question to the Premier. The Premier is aware, I believe, that the Alliance for Children’s Mental Health held a press conference in which it pointed out very directly to the government that what I have been saying over the course of the past few days is correct, that there are some 10,000 children who are on waiting lists waiting for services that would be provided by a large number of agencies that provide assistance to these children, that the waiting list is running anywhere from six months to two years and that the problem is becoming increasingly critical.

Can the Premier indicate whether he is prepared to respond to the request on the part of the alliance that some immediate assistance be provided by the government to overcome the difficulties and the problems that are related to this lengthy and completely unreasonable waiting list for children’s mental health services?

Hon Mr Peterson: I think the honourable Minister of Community and Social Services can assist the honourable member with respect to the initiatives of the government.

Hon Mr Beer: I am aware of the press conference that was held today by the Alliance for Children’s Mental Health, and certainly I am aware of the remarks which my honourable friend and others made last week in the debate which was held in the Legislature. I would like to set out for the honourable leader of the third party a number of specific things that are ongoing which are intended to address the specific points made in the press conference. I also want to underline that I think it is important to understand the focus that we take on this issue.

That focus is a somewhat broader one than specifically the problems in the children’s mental health area, but looking at it more from the focus of the children’s services sector.

There are real issues. The member raised them in his comments last week, as did members on both sides of the House, and we are not for a moment saying that those are not there. That is one of the reasons why in February I met with the executive of the Ontario Association of Children’s Mental Health Centres, to look at some specific things that we could do in the short term, as well as talk to them about the Advisory Committee on Children’s Services under Dr Cohn Maloney, which is very hard at work and will be reporting to me in June with some specific proposals around where we go in the future. Now, we take it as being very --

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Brandt: Over 1,500 professionals are appealing to the government to respond quickly, immediately, because of the urgency of this particular problem. In the past, on other days in which we have engaged in a discussion on this same question, the minister has responded by saying that Canada assistance plan funding at the federal level has been reduced. The result of that is that there are fewer dollars available for these kinds of programs.

The minister is well aware that CAP disallows expenditures in this particular field. The responsibility is in fact provincial and the programs that they are asking be expanded or improved upon in order to reduce those waiting lists are a provincial responsibility.

The Speaker: The question?

Mr Brandt: The minister has constantly talked about reports that are to come, that will clear up the problem. The delays can no longer be allowed. I appeal to the minister, on the basis of the critical nature of the waiting lists --

The Speaker: Do you have a question?

Mr Brandt: When is the minister prepared to respond?

Hon Mr Beer: I am afraid that the honourable leader of the third party is simply wrong in the first assertion that he makes in his question. I would point out that out of the some $165 million which we spent on children’s mental health centre programs and the centres themselves last year, some $35 million was recovered under the Canada assistance plan.

As the honourable member knows, that program has been capped at five per cent, and just two weeks ago I undertook, and have since done, to provide a five and a half per cent increase to all of our agencies, including children’s mental health centres, which was an increase over what had been announced earlier. That was an immediate $20 million that was being added to the system of the agencies within the Ministry of Community and Social Services.

What we have said is that all of the initiatives we will be taking this year -- and these are specific things that we are dealing with now in terms of the salaries of front-line workers and in terms of the waiting list where I have people working full-time with the association on that particular difficulty. But I would again remind the honourable member that a number of the examples he has cited are ones, in terms of individual cases, that can be dealt with as well by other parts of the children’s services sector, whether it is the children’s aid societies or the family service associations. We have to keep in mind that this is a --

The Speaker: Order. I would remind the members this is not a debate; it is questions and responses. Now I will ask the member for a supplementary question.

Mr Brandt: Thank you for explaining how that works, Mr Speaker.

Stephen Lewis, who I do not frequently quote in this House, Canada’s former ambassador to the United Nations, indicates that conditions for children who are in need of mental health treatment in Ontario are so bad that Ontario most likely does not comply with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Here we have the richest and largest province in the entire country in a position where our former ambassador to the United Nations has made, I think, a very insightful and very accurate observation, that our services for children who are in need of mental health treatment are totally inadequate. Does the minister think that is the kind of judgement he can accept on the part of his government, that we do not even come up to the standards established for some Third World countries in terms of mental health programs for children?

Hon Mr Beer: No, I do not accept that. I would put our programs, the range and the gamut of programs in this province, against any other province in this country. We have, over the last four or five years, made significant inputs into the programs that we have, in developing and funding them. That does not mean that we cannot make more progress, but we have to understand that we have a very, very good system which we are seeking to make better.

I think, as I have said before, that with the thrust of our programs, with the work of the advisory committee, those will become better, but the reason that I continually raise the federal government’s role in this is that the increase in these programs will be completely dependent on what the province puts in,

whereas in the past those programs have been under the shared-cost emphasis of the Canada assistance plan. The $35 million that we got last year from the federal government is what we will get.

The Speaker: Thank you.

Hon Mr Beer: We have already spent over the five per cent that they are going to allow, but we are going to be addressing the specific --

The Speaker: Order.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. There are quite a few other conversations going. I do not know if they are necessary.

Mr Allen: Back to the same minister on the same question:

He may praise the system to the skies, but I wonder what he says about Michael Doesburg, who is 13 years old and suicidal. Last November, when they were searching for a children’s mental health setting to have him looked after appropriately, he was admitted to Whitby Psychiatric Hospital, where he was supposed to stay for one month. He ended up there for four months with only custodial care assessment -- no treatment. They tried to find places at C. M.

Hincks Treatment Centre, the Hospital for Sick Children, the Children’s Psychiatric Research Institute in London and Placement House, which is one of the minister’s special services units. No luck. He is now at Thistletown Regional Centre for Children and Adolescents waiting for placement. He is drugged like a zombie, his parents say he is getting no treatment whatever and he is waiting now for an appointment a week from now with Hincks to determine what? Whether he will even get on a waiting list?

The Speaker: And the question?

Mr Allen: Does this young person have even a right to treatment? It would seem not in Ontario in 1990.

Hon Mr Beer: I think a number of examples, such as that, which have been brought to my attention and to that of other members, are ones that are not acceptable and are not things that we want to see in our system. That is precisely why we have moved, in working with the association, to look at the specific question of waiting lists and, equally important, to see whether there are individual young people on those lists who could be assisted in other ways within the community so that the children’s mental health centres can deal most effectively with those kids who are most at risk and most in need.

That is why, within my own ministry, I have taken on a specific person who will be working on that issue and that issue alone. That is to try to deal with the immediate short run. In addition, as we look at changes in terms of funding for the base programs and other ways that we can help in terms of staffing, I believe we will be able to do that, and that will assist us as we go down the road.

The Speaker: Thank you.

Hon Mr Beer: Yes, there are some of those problems there, but I think that together with those centres we can address them.

The Speaker: Order. I would just like to give as many members as is possible an opportunity to ask questions and get responses, so if you could just keep them a little shorter, it would be helpful.

Mr Allen: It would appear that the minister has not seen, for example, the Windsor list, even a partial list of the children awaiting mental health services: a three-year-old traumatized by a house fire in which a relative was trapped inside, preoccupied with morbid or disastrous events and acting-out confusion daily; bizarre behaviours of a five-year-old -- indiscriminate urinating, destructive, fire setting, sleep disturbances, witnesses extreme violence of mother in the company of relationships with abusive men; uncontrollable nine-year-old -- steals, lies, screams, kicks, will not obey rules, has poor peer relations, tried to strangle younger sister with a towel -- and on it goes.

These are, as I read the list, children who can be dealt with in less intrusive arrangements and other community settings than children’s mental health centres. There used to be a universal right of access to treatment in legislation in this province for children and their families in these circumstances.

The Speaker: The question?

Mr Allen: When is the minister going to guarantee in law that right once more?

Hon Mr Beer: I think that we have set out in the Child and Family Services Act specific proposals around children’s mental health. Let me go back again, though, to the fundamental question around the waiting lists and one of the issues that we are dealing with the association on, which is in terms of those who are on those lists -- and I am not saying that I cannot deal specifically with the ones the honourable member has raised -- where we have said that there are those on the lists who in fact could be dealt with by other parts of the children’s services sector.

I think one of the ways that we can deal with that list is having a better way of determining where is the best place for the different individuals on that list. Indeed, we need to continue to improve that system, and that is precisely why we have put in place some of these other changes and raised and increased the budgets. But I think that if we focus only on the children’s mental health centres per se, we are not going to deal effectively with the overall sector in ensuring that all children’s need are met and that that sector is indeed properly funded.

ABUSE OF THE ELDERLY

Mrs Cunningham: My question is to the Minister of Community and Social Services. It is not just the young kids we are worried about today; it is the elderly as well. As the minister knows, we do not have regulations or guidelines from this government around the rest home situation. I know also that we have got some 30,000 or 40,000 people in these special homes. Some of them are being abused. We have read the stories in the last couple of months and we are not happy about it.

More recently, the report on the regulation of residential care facilities from his own advisory committee made some pretty strong recommendations for regulations, as did the response by the rest home committee of the Ontario Long Term Residential Care Association in response to his own government.

Given that all of us are having a lot of problems out there in our communities, and there has been in fact this response to his own report, is the minister prepared to tell us today in this House exactly when we will be able to look forward to those guidelines and regulations?

Hon Mr Beer: As the honourable member points out, there has been a great deal of discussion around the issue of abuse. The specific instance of elderly persons and the whole question of rest homes has been one which, up until this point in time, has been dealt with primarily through local bylaws. We as well have been concerned about this and how that area is regulated.

The member has indicated a number of reports that have come forward. We believe that one way we are going to be able to help in improving that is under the long-term care plan, which will provide a better means of assessing and placing people, but we recognize that there would be still be an issue in terms of how exactly to help people who are in those situations. I am looking at those recommendations, together with my colleague the Minister without Portfolio responsible for senior citizens’ affairs, and will be coming forward at the appropriate time with specific proposals on that.

Mrs Cunningham: My supplementary has to do with the words “the appropriate time.” Some of us have been around a lot longer than we like to admit, and this report was made in 1986 by my predecessor, Ron Van Horne. That is longer ago than some members want to remember. Those were the recommendations five years ago. Let’s face it, we know that we have a hodgepodge of regulations out there, sometimes enforced by municipalities and sometimes not. It is not new. We have an aging population. We do not want to institutionalize them. We have a nice setting in rest homes. We know it is something we should be supporting. The minister talks about community-based care -- let’s do it.

“At the appropriate time” was the response, so my question is about long-term care --

The Speaker: That is fine, thank you.

Mrs Cunningham: We have been waiting a long time. Is it May, or is it June? When the report is released, will we have specific recommendations for the regulations that we are looking for?

Hon Mr Beer: The member will be seeing the long-term care initiative, I think, emerging very clearly as we proceed through this year. The document we have mentioned, the strategic document, will be released very, very shortly, within the next several weeks. That will, I think, provide a good indication of the areas we are intending to act on.

Specifically, around the question of elder abuse and our concerns about that, I think we are concerned about abuse across the board. Indeed, at this point in time, in terms of all our programs, I am looking at how we most effectively ensure the security of young people and seniors or anybody who is in our care. I believe that as we go forward with long-term care and these other programs, we will be able to address specifically the questions that the member raises.

NATIVE SERVICES

Mr Adams: My question is for the minister responsible for native affairs. The minister has, as I have, constituents who are native persons who live and work in his riding; that is to say, off-reserve. I know that the minister realizes that native people who work off the reserve pay both federal and provincial taxes. What services do these native people get for their provincial tax payment, bearing in mind that the federal government reimburses the province for native education, health and social service costs?

Hon Mr Scott: The honourable member undoubtedly knows, because he is conversant with native affairs matters, that until 1985 the view of the government of Ontario was that if it was on-reserve it was federal and if it was off-reserve it was provincial.

Since 1985 -- that was the year of change in Ontario -- the view of the government of Ontario on native affairs matters has been different. We have begun to acknowledge the unfairness of discriminating against residents of Ontario even if they live on-reserve. Supported by the federal government, often in cost-shared programs, we provide a wide range of services to Indian people who live on-reserve, whether they work on the reserve or not. I do not know whether the honourable member wants a list of those now or will wait, but on the assumption that the Speaker is busy and I can go on a little while, I can tell him that we of course provide on-reserve policing services, we provide --

Mr Brandt: Handy list you have there.

Hon Mr Scott: -- social services to adults and children, we provide a wide range of health care services, we provide employment and training, tourism and recreation and economic development services and education services.

The leader of the third party thinks I have this list just for today. I am so proud of the contribution that we make in this very difficult field where much remains to be done that I have it with me always.

The Speaker: Supplementary.

Mr Adams: I am very grateful for that complete response.

As a result, I do not have a supplementary.

Mr Wildman: Parenthetically, someone once said, “The poor are always with us.”

SAULT STE MARIE FAMILY SERVICES CENTRE

Mr Wildman: I have a question of the Minister of Community and Social Services. In view of the fact that he is going to be visiting Sault Ste Marie in the near future -- tomorrow -- can the minister inform the House as to whether or not he intends, during his time in the Sault, to visit the Family Services Centre? If he is, what assurances does he intend to give the centre that it will get the funding it requires in order to allow it to service the community and provide the programs of marital and family violence counselling for which it has a mandate?

Hon Mr Beer: The reason for my visit tomorrow is specifically to address a meeting that is bringing together those from across the north, parents of handicapped young people, and to look at various programs that we and they have and how they can be improved, particularly in the north. I will be meeting with a number of other groups during the day.

I can certainly tell the member that with respect to that specific issue, I know that we have been working with them on it. I do not have a specific answer at this point in time, but I will certainly ensure that, before I go up, I am briefed as to precisely where it is at and make sure to share with the honourable member the results of that information.

Mr Wildman: I appreciate the minister’s response and the fact that he is visiting the Sault. I am sure it will not be a waste of time, as some have indicated it might be.

I want to ask the minister specifically about the situation at the Family Services Centre in that Mr Rivard, the director, announced earlier this week that the centre is closing intake for family and marriage counselling because it has a 12-month waiting list for services. I wonder what the minister intends to do to ensure that this centre gets the funding it needs to be able to provide the counselling that is obviously badly needed in the Sault and area.

Hon Mr Beer: I know that a number of our agencies, as we have been discussing earlier in the session today, face difficulties around the growing demand for services and the resources that are available to meet those. I can tell the honourable member that I will review that specific situation. I think that what we are always trying to find here is a balance to ensure that we can provide services in the north that are similar and comparable to those in the south. Sometimes it does not work out as well as it ought to. I appreciate that this is an important service that is provided and I will review the situation and report back to the honourable member.

GREATER TORONTO AREA RAPID TRANSIT

Mr Cousens: I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. Last week I asked the honourable minister what his top three priorities were for the transportation development plans in the greater Toronto area, because it is urgent that we get on with these projects and begin to solve the crisis in transportation that we have in the greater Toronto area. He indicated that he had an implementation committee that will establish what the priorities are.

I asked the minister what the top three priorities were and he was not able to tell us last week. But he did indicate that there is going to be a special implementation committee set up within 10 days to begin that process. Ten days have now passed. Has he named the committee, who is on the committee and when it is going to meet?

Hon Mr Wrye: I am just so delighted that my friend asked me that question. The first meeting of the transportation implementation committee started one hour and 22 minutes ago and will go on for about another half an hour.

The committee will be meeting regularly under the chairmanship of my deputy minister. It contains the senior administrative leadership of GO Transit, the Toronto Transit Commission and all the regions of Metropolitan Toronto. There were about 15 individuals in the room, plus two or three of my most senior officials. I spoke to them at the beginning of the meeting and will be kept advised as to their progress.

We hope and expect that by this fall we will have an implementation timetable for this most ambitious plan anywhere in North America.

Mr Cousens: Very often I have great problems when we call it question period because I never get an answer. Today I got an answer, so I compliment the minister. I am not used to any answers from these guys. It is an urgent priority that we get on with the task for the greater Toronto area transportation needs.

On this whole subject, the deputy minister for the greater Toronto area, Gardner Church, was quoted recently as saying that local municipalities will require some $30 billion over the next 20 years to support growth. We all know that good transportation, infrastructure and planning must precede growth, or you end up having the kind of congestion that we are seeing now in the areas outlying Toronto itself. So we need a blueprint for growth that must include transportation planning.

I want to ask the minister what role Mr Church and his office are playing in the setting up of transit priorities for the greater Toronto area, so that we can begin to see how this additional $30 billion is going to be spent.

Hon Mr Wrye: This is another question I am just delighted to answer. I am sure my friend the minister responsible for the greater Toronto area will not mind if I outline a little bit about Mr Church’s responsibilities and how we are dovetailing transportation initiatives into them.

Mr Church is involved in looking at the longer-term issues in terms of the GTA and in developing exactly the kind of blueprint for the order