PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MAY 5, 1977 /

Hay 5, 1977 Tape 2182 PK - 1 The House met at 10:00 P.M. lfr. Speaker in the Chair. NR. SPEAKER: Order, please! OR..:\1 QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, yesterday as I recall it, it took ~s until-what? It was twenty-five to six when they began Question Period, tHo and a half hours after the House met, and today we managed it in four and a half minutes. Hr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier and it arises out of the statements which have been reported and which, I understand, are in fact accurately reported,to be made by Mr.

Sweeney~the President and General Manager of Labrador Linerboard - at Stephenville. Hr. S•-1eeney,as I understand it, Sir, has g~ven his view· that the mill is .JCL.abl e . Could the Premier tell us, please, \•7hether that opinion is accepted by the government, and in event how the opinion squares with the decision taken by the government, which is to the effect that the !\1ill is not viable? HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER HOORES: Mr. Speaker, Hr. Sweeney is on the Advisory ~ Board, and that report speaks for itself. I think, Hr.

Sweeney, and I think it is fair to say, has become very enthusastic since his arrival in Stephenville, and I think with very good reason. He has told us, for instance, that he considers the 1;-10rk force at the mill to be as good as he has seen. He, I think, has got carried away >vith the idea of turning the mill around, if it can possibly be done. I think we agree with him that if there is any - you 1-"nmv, if it can be done, if the economics can be worked out,I am sure there 'tvill be third parties interested in buying it.

If conversion can be done and that excellent 1:·7ork force could be retained, '"e have already said that is the case. But our records to date, Sir, do not shm.; that we can afford to carry on as is. If it changes He 't-lill be as pleased as anybody in this Province, I Fill personally, and I kno~7 others here -.;.;ho have 61.01.

~ - Iay 5, 1977 Tape 2182 p~~ - 2 Premier Hoores: been involved will be as well. But in the meantine He are taking this course based on statistics, facts, dollars, I suppose you could say in a very hard businesslike manner, It is not something,as I said, He wanted to do. l\B I say,:~·'Ir. s~-veeney's enthusasiam is one that, I think, any mill manager should have, and I think, as far as Linerboard, and it is unfortunate it is not paying,because I think he would be the of individual that would make it a very 'vorthy contributor to this Province. MR. NOLA.l.'l : MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

A supplementary. A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. ROBERTS: '\-Jell, Hr. Speaker, I cannot debate the Premier's answer now but I will at the appropriate time because I do not think he ansv1ered the question, but we will go at another one. Hould the Premier be ';villing to allow Mr. s,,e~ney to appear before the Bar of the House or before a Committee of the House to answer questions from members with respect to the mill~ Mr.

Sweeney, after all, is the man .vho has run it for six months. and the man who_ was hrnnR"ht i"r by the government to try to salvage the situation which existed as of last October or November when the Advisory Committee was appointed. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREHIER MOORES: Hr. Speaker, I think the answ·er has to be no as far as appearing before the Bar of the House is concerned any more than the Advisory Committee themselves, and that -.1ould involve all the accountants who were involved as well.

But I am quite sure that all the information will be made available to the Opposition and to government members or anybody else for that matter. And I think also that I would be very surprised if Hr. Sweeney '"auld not sit down ~- rith any in teres ted party and do the best he could to answer their questions on Stephenville. But I think, Sir, it would be very '"rang to bring him before the Bar of the House. ~IR. ROBERTS: Will the Premier authorize that? 6:1.02

~fay 5, 1977 Tape 2182 PK - 3 MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEi\.lZER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Conception Bay South. HR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the hon. the Prem i er. I am 1•70ndering ~-1hat figures they might have available on the cost \ - involved in the shutting dmm of the mill. For example, we are told that you are still going to have pay something in the vicinity of perhaps $30 million a year- is that correct?-to service the debt? MR. ROBERTS: It is of that order, yes. But >ve do not have the precise figures. MR.

NOLAN: ~>/'ell if you take that figure, and I presume that is right for the moment,unless the Premier has more accurate information, plus whatever you might have to pay in welfare or whatever else might be involved in social programmes to try to remedy that situation, the void there. Hhat is the net difference then? ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PRE:t:-1IER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, there has been a cost benefit analysis done and that can be made available to the Opposition for a further debate. MR. ROBERTS: Hould the Premier be able to table that?

PREMIER HOORES: Table it for the debate?I do not see no reason \vhy not. MR. ROBERTS : For the full benefit costs ? PREMIER MOORES: M..l{. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Fisheries, Sir. Yes. The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of \-lould the minister care to react 6103

~ray-5 ,1977 Tape 2183 AH-1 l~. ~;EARY: to a news story in the \(orning ~ews that the provincial government was becoming involved in the purchase of equiument to process small fish, I believe it ~·;as under t1,•elve inches or fourteen inches. ,10J EmT. ~iEHBER: Sixteen inches. ~[R. i~EAI'.Y: Sixteen inches and there seems to be some critic ism from the federal authorities on this particular project. Hould the minister care to straighten us out on it? f'.1R. SPEM':ER: Fan. Minister of ~isheries. ~·r!?.. H. CARTER: ~r.

Sueaker, every year pretty well, I suppose ~since the heginning of the cod fishery hundreds of years ago~there ' is a lot of small fish caught as a ~y-catch exnecially in traDs . . Indeed the estimated quanity is about 7 ,000 tons 1-Thich is 14 million pounds,caught every year. Some of which - well•I suppose the large part of which is dumped and some used for fish meal. T.Je intend to assist t•·ro comDanies in the ?Urchase of machines to fillet small fish. I cannot name the companies vet ~eca~se the agreement has not been signed. But, Mr.

Sueaker, the setting of net sizes and the regulations and rules governing the catching of fish is a federal resnonsibility. We have oade representation to Otta-.:¥a ,.;rith resuect to this pr.oolem and we feel t!-!at until - it is not an easy problem to resolve,- T.Jhat '·JOuld they do Hith the small fillets block? 'fR. H. CARTE>t: They ~·.rould - it is a saleable product and - Ho~.;r, in Tvhat form? ~1'R. ~~. CARTER: In hlocks, in blocks. In blocks. But, ~1r.

Speaker, the custom: if I can take a minute to exnlain- the custom so far, uu to datelis that certain fish merchants '>rill go out on a uharf and t~1.e boat ~··ill come in during the tran season and thev will arbitrarily offer the ~oat mmers t~e union rate for sixty ner cent of the catch in t'he boat. and again arbitrarilv sav t'hat r,;e r·rill pay vou one cent or t~·70 cents .. - 6104

!·Iay 5,19 77 Tape 2183 AH-2 HR. H. CARTER: or three cents a uound, I think it is for t~e small fish - forty per cent of the small fish. And that of course does not go dmm to well •:-rit'J. the fisl-termen. The fisherll'en today cannot afford to sell that fish for a cent or tHo a pound. But certainly our position is that until ~,·e find a way to remedy the situation- PEEHIER t-100RES : The drying plant should be enlarged. Pardon! PREHIER rf00RES : The drying plant should be enlarged. HR.. l\/.

CARTER: The 9-ry:!.ng, the drying - again it is Otta~va sets the size of the mes!-1 and they are going to have to assist in the changing of the structure of the trap., But ~ve believe that this fish should not be d~~ped; it is a crime, it does very little for the fishermen~and until such time as the problem can be resolved He believe that the fish · should 1;>e processed and that the fishe!iTlen should obtain full price for it. HR. NEARY: A supplementary question, ~[r. SpeHker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. l'~.

NEARY: I.Jould the minister indicate to the House if there was Prior consultation with the ~ederal Fisheries Department or anybody in the ~overnment of Canada before the Province Hent ahead with this project? ~·1R. SPEA.TZER: Ron. Hinister of Fisheries. HR. 1-l. CARTER: . Mr. Speaker, Otta~.;a, I think is aware of the problem. I am not suggesting - it is not an easy one to correct and I am sure they are working on it.f'.ut like I said,we did r,.;rite Ottav!a, the letter is on file in my office. ~1R. NEARY : Any reply? ---..._____ ~~R • ._,. CARTER: A ;rear and a half ago. I am not sure of the renlv.

But certainlv I am not blaming nttaHa, I t"hink something has to be done, Ottmva vill have to do it 'Jut until they can see fit to do it~ at least find a ~·Jav to do it,then He believe the 61.05 ,/

~lay 5,1977 Tape 2183 AP.-3 NR. H. CAI?_TER : fish should be landed,properly ?recessed and the fishermen should get the full value for it. And that is ~,rhv He are encouraging the filleting of that small fish by assisting these tHo companies in the provision of two machines to do it. ~ffi. NEARY: A suunlementarv. :•fR. SP EA..."'<ER : An additional supple~entary. Hon. member for LaPoile then the hon. gentleman from Fogo. MR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, in connection with tae catching of the fish and the building of ne\·7 boats and so forth, would the ~minister indicate to the ?ouse whet"l,.er or not there r.1ill be a federal subsidies involved, if there .1:vas prior consultation •:-lith the Government of Canada, the Department of Fisheries concerning licenses for these ner..r boats and federal subsidies for these new boats that are goin9; to 1Je built land v.rill thev replace old boats using the old liscences or r,lill they be comuletely neo:v boats to new fishermen , ne~·7 applicants? !:'IR. S'PEA..TZER: The han. minister. ~ffi. • W. CARTER : ~'(r.

Speaker, there is a federal subsidy no~v paid on boats U? to and including forty-five feet in length. He have ~~. made representation to Ottawa to have the subsidy re-instated on boats up to and including sixty-five feet in length. MR.. ~TEAP_Y : Any response? ~iR. r,;r. CARTER: r.re Hired Ottar,7a on that, I think the 'Premier discussed i.t ~.;ith ~ttaHa during his trip to that city some time ago and T,7e are hoping there 'l;vill be a re-instatment of that sixty-five foot subsidy. ~· 1R. 'TEARY : But there are no guarantees ? 'f?~ . ~~1 . C .AB.TER : ~ot yet,but we are - - 61.06

~rav 5,1?77 Tape 2183 •6.P- 4 ~·~at about t he liscences? '~R . ~·1. (:.1\RT::R: The liscences? Tnese hoats r·;ill he sold to fisher men ~·rho !1ave boats that are of a certain age tvhere t!:.ev can transfer the liscence. ~ut there Hill be no sho rta ge of aoplicants for those boats . ~.,<e are already cot!lpilin~ a very imores si ve list of people ooH that Hant to b uy them . h1R . SPEA .. '<ER: P.on. IT\ember for Fogo . l i . 61.07

~ay 5, 1977 (Morning) Tape ?'To. 2184 NM- 1 CAPTAIN ~.VINSOR: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary to the han, ~~inister of Fisheries. Is this not contrary to the conservation policy of the federal government ? - and this might be a double-barrelled question, Mr. Speaker- and who ,if the federal government is going to drop, or increase or pay the subsidy, who will pick up that subsidy on the small fish? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries, MR. H. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, there is no subsidy being paid on small fish.

In our new gear supplement programme, which we announced last year~we stated then that we would not be paying that half cent a pound subsidy on small fish. But I repeat, Mr. Speaker, that it is a problem that is there. We recognize the fact that there is a problem. We recognize the difficulty Ottawa must be having in finding a solution to it, But until they do, until they can find an answer to that problem.,~vell then surely we cannot stand by and see 7,000 tons of fish, 14 million pounds of fish, dumped or at least disposed of a year for which the fishermen get practical1y no return at all.

CAPTAIN \HNSOR: A supPlementary, Hr, Speaker, Iffi.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. CAPTAIN WINSOR: But is it not recognized, }rr. Speaker, th~t ' ~ that same fish in two years ~•ill be much more valuable than it is at the Present day if they are catching it under sixteen inches? XR. SPEAKER: The han, Minister of Fisheries, ~r. Speaker, that of course is motherhood, Of course A=: give it two more years and the fish would be that much larger, But if the han. member can tell me hm.; you can keep that fish alive and . . allow it to escape once it is caught in a trap,well then maybe he has got t~e ans1ver.

We are 1vorking on it. \Je have gear technologists who are lookin-s at the problem. He have made renresentation to Otta~.;a and we are now working on another plan that r,;e think might have some desired results later,but again I go back to what I said earlier that the fish is being caught. It is a fact of life, It has been ~oing on since the fishery started, And 1ve believe- r,;e are 6108

i1ay 5, 1977 Tape No, 2184 NM - 2 P.R.. H. CARTER: against seeing that fish dumped, We are aa,ainst having fishermen beirg forced into the position of either dumping the fish or receiving a cent a pound for it, And that is what we are trying to find an answer, at least as long as the problem is there we want to make sure that the fishermen get the best possible price for that fish and it can only be done if we provide the necessary wherewithal to the processing companies to find means of filletting that fish where it can be sold on the market and treated like any other type fish. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile, followed by the hon. gentleman for Windsor-Buchans. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health, Sir. Would the minister indicate to the House whom the therapeutic abortion committees report to .. • whom they are responsible to? Are they responsible to the administration of the hospital, the administrators or are they responsible to the minister? MR. SPE~KER: The hon. Minister of Health. XR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, provision is made in the Criminal Code of Canada to permit abortions to be performed in Canada.

One of the provisions are that the accredited hospitals only would ce permitted to carry out abortions,and a requirement of the law is that an acortion committee be established, So it is under the Criminal Code of Canada. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary, ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary, ~ffi. NE~RY: Perhaps the Minister of Justice could tell the House to whom to the t~erapeutic abortion committees report? To whom are they res~onsible? Or are they responsible to anybody? Are they a law unto themselves? ~fR. HICK!'1AN: I wil l have to take that question as notice, ~<fr.

Speaker, because I want to be sure of the answer. But I Hill get the answer 6109

Y~y 5, 1977 Tape No, 2184 ~- HI~N: for the hon, gentlenan on tomorrow, ~. NEARY: A supplementary question for the minister, Sir. XR. SPEAKER: A SU?plementary, MR. NEABY: The Minister of Health, NR. HICI0f.A.'t\l': It is under the general code, yes. P.ight. ~ MR. ROBERTS: The minister gets the reports anyway, MR. NEARY: Would the Minister of Health - MR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Health has to ~pprove them. NM- 3 MR. NEARY: Would the Minister of Health inform the House if i t is compulsory for the reason to be given for the termination _ .... .---- of pregnancy on the abortion report? - MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. ~nister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: No, Mr. Speaker, that is not a requirement of the therapeutic abortion form. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir. HR • SPEA..l{ER : A final supPlementary, then the hon, gentleman for Windsor-Buchans. ~1R. NEA..'R.Y: Would the minister tell the House what other hospitals i n Newfoundland, apart from the General Hospital- I am sorry,I did not mean to put this on my quest i on-- out w a ospitals in Newfoundland outside of St, John's are doing abortions? -- / 6110

Hay 5, 1977 Tape no. 2185 Page 1 - ms HR. SPEAKFR: The han. Minister of Health. HR. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, as I indicated a few days ago ~vhen my department's estimates "7ere being debated, one hospital, in the city of St. John's, performs abortions, that is the General. There are some other hospitals, but I "tvould refer to take the question under advisement. I ~vould not want to give the wrong names, but I will certainly get that information for the han. member. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

Would the Premier advise the House as to when we can expect the Order-in-Council or .. matever action is necessary to bring the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro under the control of the Public Utilities Board? When? ~. SPEAKER: ~ PREMIER HOORES: The han. Premier. It has already been said, Mr. Speaker, I think, that legislation will be introduced during this session here in the House to bring it under some regulatory agency. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition followed by the han. gentl~~an for Terra Nova. MR.. ROBERTS : Thank you, Sir. A question for the Minister of Education.

Could he tell the House, Sir, whether he has received any representations from the President of Hemorial University, Mr. Horgan, or any group of persons speaking in behill~he­ president with respect to the effects of the government's decision not to proceed this year with the contruction of a library despite wh2t the university understood to be a firm commitment from the government that the construe tion of the ne'tv university library would in fact begin this year: HR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Education. HR. HOUSE: ~!r. Speaker, I have not been in contact with the president.

I have read his reaction in the media, but I have not been able to get in contact with him, because I have been trying to contact hi~ on other matters since. 61.1:1

Hay 5, 1977 Tape no. 2185 Page 2 - ms MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~:!R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~ffi.. ROBERTS: \-las there any consultation with the university, '\·lith the president or the authorities there about the effect of this ·-- decision before the government took their final decision? And· that does not conflict,by the way,with the requirements of the rules of budget secrecy. I understand that the decision has had a calamitous effect.,or it is feared that it 'tvill have a calamitous effect,upon the academic programmes of the ~niversity.

I wonder whether there was any consultation with the university beforegand,or was it an arbitrary and unilateral decision? Mi.. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Nr. Speaker, we had discussions vlith the president prior -well while we were talking about the university's budget, and we had discussed the library, and it did have some iority, but it is a long-term programme , and in vieH of the financial restraints, we felt that we could not go ahead with it this year.

On the other hand I might add that we do not think, of course, that it will have any immediate affect on the programming at the university in the next couple of years. But obviously, you knmv, we do need a library, and every effort will be made in the next three or four years to get it. :t-ffi.. ROBERTS: They have been doing that for a long time,'Wallace'. HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Terra Nova. HR. LUSH: A question for the Minister of Education.

In this year's budget th~re was no reference to the government's ,....---·---- ·- - -- ---- intention with respect to phase three which would result in ~provement in the teacher-student ratio. I r,.;onder 'tvhat the government's intentions are in this matter , whether the thing is shelved indefinitely or just 't·lha t the situation with respect to the phase three is, which 'tvould result in improvement in the student-teacher ratio? 61.12

~..ay 5' 197 7 Tape no. 2185 Page 3 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. I>fR. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker, the third phase has been postponed deferred again for the coming year. I want to point out that we have been talki~g about the pupil/teacher ratio - MR. ROBERTS: In other wares it has been cancelled. I>fR. HOUSE: - the pupil/teacher ratio, the one to twenty-five, I think, is the one that most people talk about, and now we would need another one hundred teachers throughout the Province for our one to twenty-five ratio. That would give, I think, most boards an average of two teachers for the total number of boards.

Perhaps the bigger board.s· · would - get the advantage of it more than a small ones, because we have this Clause 13 in effect now which a board losing population will have a one to twenty-five ratio if they go below the one to twenty-six. So it would not drastically affect the educational programme, the one to bventy-five ratio. :MR. LUSH: A new formula though. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: My question, Sir, is for the han. Premier. ~w that the controversial - 61.13

May 5, 1977 Tape 2186 Pk - 1 Hr. Nearv: Norrna_ and Gladys and the Provincial flag have cre;t back into linelight again 1 would the Premier tell the House '\o7hether or not he has issued instructions to his Hinister of Tourism to cut out this foolish extravagance and waste , this spending on the Norma and Gl~c~ys affair to try to justify sending her to Europ_ ~ year and T..;andering around the Hest Indies? ----~-----------------. Is the Premier going to reply? !1R. SPEAlZER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER ~100RES: Mr.

Speaker, you kno,v,the question has innuendo which I totally disagree >-lith, and the han. member knows only too well that he 1;..ranted the question asked rather than the question ans~vered. HR. NEARY: A supplementary question then, Mr. Speaker. ~fR. SPEA...TZER: A supplementary. MR. NE4.&\RY : Hould the Premier tell the House v7hat progrannne, ~..rhat is the Norma and Gladys going to do this year apart from being c- tied up down here in the harbour? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER HOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure when the minister's stimates comes up he will be only too glad to give all the details of ~-;hat is proposed for the good ship Norma and Gladys. NR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir. ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary. Then I will recognize the hon. member for Conception Bay South. ~. NEARY: What about the Provincial flag ? Is the Provincial flag going to surface in this session of the House? And what about the Union Jack? A statement has been made that the Union Jack is the private flag of the Queen and it is not permissible to use it in this Province? SOME HON. HE}IBERS: Oh, oh! HR.

SPEAKER: Order, please. Before recognizing the hon. the Premier to answer the question, I must make the same point,but if anything more firmly,than the one made a couple of days ago 1yith respect to another hon. gentleman, and that is a supplementary. - 6114

···-----J Hay 5, 1977 Tape 2186 PK - 2 :-fr. Speaker: As I understood, the former question dealt with the Norma and Gladys, and the latter one with - }'JR. ROBERTS: Why? Would not that fly a flag? MR. SPEAKER: - the Provincial flag. So I would suggest that it would not be supplementary but there would be little to be served by ruling it out of order. If there were a situation where seven or eight members,or a number of members were all standing then I would in all likelihood have to rule it out of order because a priority has been given throu gh the supplementary means.

That is r--­ not the case but I do point it out because I think there would be ,- circumstances under which it would be necessary to~ thenrecognize ana e ·:.er member. ----- The hon. the Premier. PREMIER HOORES: After the ruling, Mr. Speaker, I am not sure of the question asked some while ago. But the fact is that I certainly was under the impression that the Union Jack was the flag of this Province, by ~ ta~ute. 1-IR. NEARY: Not statute! P.REHIER MOORES: Certainly - MR. NEARY: The Historic Trust - HR. ROBERTS: Albert Perlin will write another column tomorrow. PREHIER MOORES: I have no intention, Mr.

Speaker, of getting into a controversial debate on this. But I am sure this House in its wisdom ·~11 decide in good time whether the Province should have a distinctive Provincial flag and what flag that should be. i1R. NEARY: Not in time for the Summer Games. HR. ROBERTS: He has already ruled on that. ~JR. SPEA.TZER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NO:W\N: Hr. Speaker, a question for the Hinister of Industrial Development and also Rural Development -- NR. ROBERTS: And he is associate ~finis ter of Eospi tal Development. :-1R. NOLMT: All right.

Hell \vhat I am in teres ted in, in vie'l·7 of the unemplo:rnent situation in this Province and a large nuiJ.ber of / 61.15

~fay 5, 1977 Tape 2186 PK - 3 }fr. Nolan: people ,,rho are going to Alberta and so on to find employment, from the Budget I am wondering if the minister can give us some idea of how many jobs that he hopes to CFeate in his t\VO departments r.vith the various programmes he has on his books in this ti.velve month period? :t-IR. SPEAKER: The hon. 1·~inister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Hr.

Speaker, I have got no crystal ball to begin with so I cannot make that kind of a prediction, but I will give a general rundown on the economy, and on industry and on potential and on the various estimates that have applicability, and perhaps outline sor:1e dimension as to i.vhat could happen in the Province this present year.

I think it would be only fair to say that this Budget, dealing \vith the emphasis on development, and the emphasis on fisheries, and the emphasis on various other votes that will have a development competent that we are not going to have the kind of employment opportunities in this Province this year that will meet the-or even nearly meet the requirement with a growing labour force~ And I think it is going to take us years dmm the road~ even i.vith an upturn in the national economy, and even with some of the achievements like was announced yesterday by Mr.

Lessard, the Federal Minister of DREE, when he indicated that there needs to be measures taken such as adjustments on a regional basis in taxation policy to allow more incentive for people, the business people in particular~to remain in the local area, that there T.·lOuld be more investment by the private sector in the various regions of Canada that are depressed regions, like the Atlantic region. It is going to take major kinds of aspects of this nature, policies of this nature.,to turn the economy around. 61.16

May .) , 1977 Tape no. 2187 Page 1 - ms Mr. Lundrigan. I believe, Hr. Speaker, the member is quite aware, as a former minister I ~elieve of Economic Development - or was he an adviser in that field,or did he ~..rork in this field ~vith his former administration? - that it is going to take much more than the particular measures that we have in the budget to achieve the kinds of economic growth that will take up the slack in our labour force.

And I think that we, as as Province, alone by itself, do not have the mechanism and certainly do not have the financial strength to·be able to offset the very critical unemployment problem that we have in the Province. HR. NOLAl'l: A supplementary. MR.SPEAKER: A supplementary. 'MR. NOLAN: Surely the minister must agree that if he is loaning out certain amounts of money each year, it must be predicated on the creation of certain jobs.

I understood that that was the reason for the loan in the first place. vfuat I am trying to find out at the moment is - I mean,we no~J have a new resettlement programme in this Province. Rathe~ than from the islands in Placentia . Bay, it is to Halifax, Alberta, Toronto and so on. So if you have $4 million you are going to loan out this year under various rural development schemes - some of the projects that I know of,by the way, and others that are coming up could be very, very good.

I am not disputing that- but I am trying to put a figure on it because students coming out of school, as I am sure the ministers here are aware, are asking questions, Where are we going to find employment? I get it as well as the minister. XR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Hr. Speaker, I did not really get a specific ~uestion. It was more of a commentary, and I will sort of take notice of that and give proper response when the estimates are up. Unfortunately, I vmuld like to ha"'le seventy-five hours for the estimates for my own department just to get in the debate. But just to respond, Mr.

Speaker, it is 61.::r~

·' ~· May 5, 1977 Tape no. 2187 Page 2 - ms Hr. Lundrigna. h~possible for me - for example, let us take, we are budgeting $1.7 million for Rural Development Loans Authority .It is h~possible for me to indicate exactly what jobs will be created, because it is a progranune t:1at facilitates industrial or rural or \vhatever kind of development. It indicates, for example, that we are willing to lend at least this year $1.7 million if people qualify for loans in the area of development which has a resource base, and has a manufacturing aspect to it. We have also $800,000 for community projects.

We have the minister with his programmes as well,and other ministers. But, for example under these programmes it depends on what projects come forward . , who wants assistance? It is entirely possible that that programme will be totally inadequate,the $1.7 million, that will have to come back to the government and look for more funds. It is also possible that these funds will not be used at all. So the government's position that it has taken is that its programmes are to facilitate, to assist the growth in the economy, not to assume the full responsibility for it.

And if the member is suggesting that the government should really ignore the public sector and move in with the active kind of job creating programmes as the main method of eliminating the unempl9yment programme problem in this Province, · then it would require an entirely different approach than we are taking as a government. And maybe we need a more socialistic approach, but I do not think the government can afford it; I do not think the people need it. MR. :?..OBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, the minister's answer is most interesting because, of course, it flies in the face of evert~ling ~vhich his colleagues have been saying in the budget speech~so we will certainly have a go at him in the debate. But my question, Sir, is this: Since the minister cannot tell us how many jobs were created or ~vill be created this - 6118

May 5, 1977 Tape no. 2187 Page 3 - ms 2'-Ir. Roberts. year as a result of the programmes which he administers in his own individualistic style,can he tell us how many jobs were created last year as a result of the programmes which he administers ? .. ;/i._._A L,~,- HR. <8PE~1. Yes, Hr. Speaker, I will be most delighted to give the House that information when the estimates are up, and I hope that we can create at least one more job than the Leader of the Opposition nmo! anticipates, because he is going to need one before this year is over. MR. ROBERTS: I can have the job of being the member for Grand Falls. MR.

SPEAKER: I recognize the han. member for LaPoile and then the hon. gentle~. :an for Windsor - Buchans. HR. NEARY: My supplementary, Sir, is in connection with the job creation that is being referred to, but I think it is more appropriately directed to the Hinister of Social Services in connection with the announcement in the budget speech that there is going to be 1,000 new jobs created. Could the minister tell the House if plans have been finalized for these 1,000 new jobs, and if the list has been compiled , where the jobs will be created , what the projects are and so forth?

Could the minister give us-a n -updating on this rather urgent matter? NR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, the jobs have not been decided upon. The first round of meetings are being held this week as a matter of fact ~vith the directors. But we do not intend to start these jobs nmv and interfere ~vith the regular seasonal employment, the Summer months. It is hoped that some of them can get off the ground in Summer, but most of them would be in early Fall. HR. NEARY: Ah, ha! That is a new twist. 61.19

~1ay 5, 1977 Tape No. 2188 ID1 - 1 HR. • SPE.AKER : Time for one final question, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. NR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister ~f Industrial '-.....___ "· Development. It appears that the -.;.;orkers at ....

Waterford and Treasury Board have come to/ it; appears to have been agreement on a mediator and on terms of reference and my question, Sir, is if there is that agreement that a mediator is appointed and terms of reference agreed to~will the workers of Waterford Hospital, is there any indication that they wi11 return to work during mediation or do they intend to stay off until the strike has been mediated? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. ~~. LUNDRIGAN: It does not come under my jurisdiction so I would perha~s HR. FLIGHT:! addressed the 'finister of Hanpower. MF..

RO't<JE: Industrial Relations. MR • FLIGHT: Industrial Relations and Hanpower. MR. LilliDRIGAN: Oh, I am sorry. "'1R • ROBERTS: A re~l minister, not a temporary one. Come on, 'Joe~ you know the answer. HR. SPEAKER: Order. HR.. HICKMAN: I just wanted to - HR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Manpower is going to answer the question. HR. NEARY: \Vho is responsible for Waterford? The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. ~r. Speaker, you kno"T I am not the '-finister of Industrial MR.. SPEA..-T<ER : ~~R. ROUSSEAU: DevelOl?ment, I am the ~1inister of Industrial Relations. There is a difference. ~-ffi.

ROBERTS : If you ~.;ere the ~finis ter of Industrial Development ~ve ~-muld be better off. 61.20

May 5, 1977 Tape No. 2188 NM- 2 !'ffi. ROUSSEAU: But~ Mr. Speaker, I can only speak on my information thus far. ~y information was- and this is v_rhy the suggestion was made with binding arbitration in the first instance that work would resume - my understanding now is that no the unit at Waterford are not prepared to go back to work until they receive the report of the mediator. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. • HI CIQ1AN: Motion seven. M~tion, the hon. Minister of Finance to introduce,a bill, "

An Act To Amend The Newfoundland and Labrador ~yd ro (Loan and Guarantee Limitation) Act, 1975," (Bill No, 55). On motion, Bill No. 55, read a first time• MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance approached me, I presume he approached the hon. gentlemen in the Official Op?osition, to ask to have this bill put through the House today by leave. tVhile I am prepared to grant leave, Sir, personally, but in the meantL~e I would like to condemn the government for proceeding to borrow $30 million in their stupidity. They did not take a look at the Act. MR.

ROBERTS: ·we were not going to do it without debating. MR. NEARY: No, no, not ~vithout debate, second reading. MR. ROBERTS: Could I say a word? ~~. NEARY: Yes. Well I - }fR. ROBERTS: Is the han. gentleman debating it or is he just MR.~ NEARY: No. ~o. I am giving my leave. I am giving lea,;e. You know as far as I am concerned the House can have leave to " d-ebate. MR . ROBE'\TS: Does the hon gentleman take longer to take leave than, say, Groucho Narx? ~1R. l'TEARY: ~fr. Speaker - HR. ,:JvuDY: You ~re not going to give it nm.,r. '1R. NEARY: No. ~o. I am going to refrain. ~1R. ROBERTS: Pass that one on. 61.21

May 5, 1977 Tape ~o. 2188 NH - 3 MR. NEARY: I am going to let that one slide by, Sir. I am going to refrain from that. MR. ROBERTS: I ~vill pay for it later, I know that, HR. NEARY: Yes, Yes. I will just let that one slide by, Sir, But in the meantime, Mr. Speaker, it is rather unfortunate that this situation has arisen, Now we find ourselves in a bind. The government are boxed in, They are in a corner, They are cornered like a rat. They have this $30 million waiting to get the signatures put on it.

So I guess in the interest of trying to ---save, trying to rescue the reputation, the credit rating of the Province, that is the only reason I am granting leave, I am not trying to get the government off the hook,but what an impact this would have in the international business world, in the financial world if we did not go ahead today and debate this and get this $30 million. Although I am going to have a fe,.; choice words to say about that too when ~.,e are debating the bill. ~. SPEAKER: The hon, Leader of the Opposition, MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker - A.L\1 HON MEMBER: ~lhat are you U)) on? MR.

ROBERTS: I do not know what I am up on. I am up on the same point as my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), I try to make it as well. ~- SPEAKER: Actually there is no motion before the Chair, The ~"1.11 r.vas read a first time 8 I said,''When shall the bill be read a second time?" ~1R. ROBERTS : Well it is one of these procedures that does not exist but it does exist all the time because I understand,as .. my friend from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) said,that the question is 'i!hether be leave given to Q~., this bill to advance through all stages today , because it is a technical nroblem but I think a rather important ~ I understand that an issue has been contracted for and yet the legal opinions are that Hydro do not have authority to make the issue and therefnrP. ----­there is ' a problem, "\lor.v I am prepared, for those of us on this side, \!r. Speaker, to consent to it ,,,ith one caveat. I have t - 6122

~lay 5, 1977 Tape 2189 PK - 1 Hr. Roberts: raised -the problem with the Minister of Finance~who was kind enough to consult me in advance, a problem abo'ut the effect of the bill. I am not sure that it does not go beyond what I understand to be necessary at this time. And the minister, I understand in turn,has undertaken to take this up with the law officers with a view to seeing 1vhat, if anything, ousht to be done. So I wonder if on that thing, on that ground, we could let it star.d because the House will be here this afternoon and tonight.

And if we can get this result I am prepared to see it go ahead, and my friend for La.Poile (Hr. Neary) is prepared to see it go ahead. It ought to be debated but that will not take a long, long time. So can ,.,e just leave the matter in abeyance? !n other words,Your Honour's question of when shall this bill be read a second time, could that just stand in abeyance for an hour or t1vo and perhaps the House would then be in a position to answer Your Honour? That is what I - ~1R. SPEAKER: Presumably. SOME RON. }fEMBERS: Oh, oh ~ MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: lfuat I was going to suggest, Mr.

Speaker, was that in ans1·1er to His Honour's question when shall this bill be read a second time? MR. ROBERTS: MR • HI CK1:-1'.AN : undertaking - We lvill say presently - Sooner or later. He would say presently by leave,but on the MR. ROBERTS: Leave has not been ~rantP.n1 MR. HICIQ1AN: -wait no-.J, I know_ but on the undertaking that the bill would not be called for debate until this afternoon. HR. ROBERTS: Or on the undertak:!.ng - Well ~see the trouble is, :1r.

Speaker, the \vords "presently by leave" imply that leave is granted. \fny do 1·7e not say tomorrm-1 in the normal way and then if there is leave granted it can come up this afternoon by leave. At this stage I am not prepared to see it go ahead until this .difficulty has been resolved. . 61.23

May 5, 1977 Tape 2189 PK - 2 HR. HICKHAN: Either v.1ay I just did not lvant to lose, to be caught this afternooP . lvith ever ybody agreeing and then not be ab le to bring it on. MR. ROBERTS: Oh but if it is - as I understand it, I mean, ~ ...___- T.ve could, you know, the mere fact we say now, tomorrmv, does not mean 1ve cannot later change our mind. I mean, you know MR. HICKH/I.lT: Okay. All right. SPEAKER: Yes, on a motion by the House Leader I cannot ee that that cannot be altered. Tomorrm.;? .MR.. HICKMAl~: On tomorror,.;. MR. ROBERTS: 'Bill' has told you about this problem? MR.

HICKMAN: Yes, he is checking on it now. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 'fR . CHAIR.MA.."T: (Nr. Young): Order, please. Head IX - Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Young) The han. Hinister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman,in rising to introduce the estimates for the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation,I will not take too much of the Committee's time other than to point our a few of the areas with ~vhich the department is involved. \ ~ s hon. members know the department was established in 1973, and one of the main reasons for the establishment of the separate department was the government's firm conviction that greater attention should be paid to the rehabilitative needs and all its facets, and of course, the other arm of the department, t1J.e recreation arm.,l·.ras combined with rehabilitation at that time.

The department, ~1r. Chairman, is responsible for the vocation rehabilitation of disabled persons~ which is a very i mportant division. It is also responsible for the Alcohol and Drug Addiction Foundation, _and I am sure hon. members will be making comments on that as l>e go along. And our estimates this year reflects 6124

May 5, 1977 Tape 2189 PK - 3 Nr . H. Collins : government's concern about the problem proposed by the over-use of alcohol. \.Je have just about doubled our vote, our grant to the Alcohol and Drug Foundation people . He have got a vote in the estimates, t here is only $50,000 in it now, but that is because ~ve do not knmv what the final cost will be , but \ve are connnitted to the establishment of a detoxification centre on a pilot project in the city, the establishment of '"hieh, please goodness ;tv ill take place this year . Hr . Chairman, the department is also responsible for the Direct Home Service Programme ~o1hich is really • 61.25

May 5, 1977 Tape no. 2190 Page 1 - ms Mr. Collins. a ne~·l departure from anything which has been done in the past. We have got a good programme going in St. John 1 s,which ~Jas a pilot project for a period. \ile have nm,z extended that service whereby we provide services to the mentally handicapped, and th.e physically handicapped, mainly mentally handicapped people. We are extending that programme - or ~ole have extended it to Corner Brook, and also to the Conception Bay area. I think it is in Carbonear 1 th~ office is in Carbonear, but that office does render services to all of the region of Conception Bay.

We are also responsible for the homes for the aged, and we are very proud of our record in this particular field. I am sure han. members must be too. Our estimates this year, for instance, show an increase of 60 per cent. That is what we have gone from $10,000 to $16,000 for the care of the aged in this present financial year. Last year there were new homes opened at Stephenville Crossing, and at St. Anthony as ~•ell as an extension to the Salvation Army home here in St. John's. New homes are scheduleJ to be opened this year in Bonavista and in Springdale, and as ~vella ne~v 192 bed home in St.

John's during the next few months. Since 1971, Mr. Chairman, the number of people being cared for has increased - that is in the homes for the aged - the number of people being cared for has increased from 1,100 to 3,300 in this present fiscal year. The department also operates Hayles Home, the Hillview Lodge and Harbour Lodge, those three institutions caring for a total of 550 people that require a fa~rly high level of nursing care.

And I would like at this time to pay tribute to the staff in those homes , because in the Hayles Home and the Hillview Lodge and Harbour Lodge, han. members ~olho have visited those institutions I am sure must be impressed with the dedication and the talents of the staffs · in those places and the great job which they are doing. 61.26

May 5' 1977 Tape no. 2190 Page 2 - ms Mr. Collins. We also operate the homes for mentally handicapped children. Number one, I suppose, that comes to people's minds is the Exon House over here. I am not sure that I like the term, Exon House, and we are giving some consideration to - not necessarily finding another name, but possibly putting a street address on it or something, because Exon House does, in my opinion, to me- I will not say what I was going to say, but the name I think should disappear. MR. NEARY: {/ }fR. }fOLLINS: { I think you should carry on the name. ~es, we are looking into that.

But the name itself, Hr. Chairman, we are looking at it to see what the possibilities might be .in putting a street address on it. We have resolved in Exon House to change the direction of care in that particular institution. ifhenever any changes are brought about or any attempt to make changes, it always means that the human beings~which 1ve are, a lot of people object at times, But the decision was taken on the best advice we could get from the Canadian Association for the Retarted and also in consultation ~-lith child psychologists in Nev1foundland.

The decision was taken that Exon House, the activity there, should be turned around to try and turn it into a training institution as opposed to a treatment institution. And when we did make that decision there was some rearranging of guests. I do not like to call them patients.

There was some rearrangement of guests whereby some of the children ~•ho were at the Children's Home on \~ater Street were moved to Exon House, those who we thought were trainable, and some of the children who >·lere at Exon House, and who in the opinion of the professionals were not capable of absorbing any training,were moved to the 6127

Tape 2191 AH-1 NR. COT~LE-IS: r.hildren' s Rome. So ~ve have the r:::hildren' s Horne nmv as a treatment center and Exon Eouse as a training center. }~. ?'lTPJ'HY : It is an exchange. NR. COLLETS: It is an exchange "lJut one which will permit us . to train some of those people. A lot of those DAople, Mr. Chairman, mainly c:,.ildren of course, a lot of those ch:i.ldren can be trained to some degree, varying degrees naturally.

If a child can be· trained if only to be able to use the bathroom, at least that is ~vorth-while; if they can be trained to be able to feed themselves, that is worth-while, All of them,I would suspect and suggest,have varying degrees of absorbing training,but in our opinion they should be trained to Hhatever abilities they l'.ave. That is a pretty t~Jing process,because as I said, Mr. Chairman, we are changing the direction in that home and we are getting a lot of co-operation from the people there.

He are going to have to modify our approach on a dav to day basis,no doubt~to make sure that '"hat rtJe are trying to do is done in the best possible \vay.

And han. members Hill recall that only a couple of weeks ago it v7as announced by the Premier in this House that T.Ve Here bringing in a team of people from the Canadian Association for the 1>-1entally Petarded from their institute in Toronto to ta!ce a look at the Exon Fouse facility, take a look at the programmes vlhich are in place dorm there,and assess the effectivness of these programmes and let us have the benefit of their vieNs-and they are very knowledgeable in this field- let us have the benefit of their views as to the standards which '·!e have,make- recommendations to us in terms of what they think we should be doing,and they have also told us that in the event vle need them to stay on and assist us in putting the proper training programmes into place thev -.:vill do that.

The neonle from t)1at institute are very 6128

~Iay 5,1977 Tane 2191 M-~-2 knowledgeable of this tyYJe, of this apnroach to young mentally handica]Jned neonle. ':'hey have done a considerable amount of ,.;or~ all across Canada in tlte various nrovinces and r.re are looking forw·ard to their in]Jut. I might say that the advance the first contact has been made~ One gentleman~his name - I cannot think of his name nmr- but this gentleman came in from the institute last r.veek.

He has had meetings '·lith the officials in the denartment and he has also been over at Exon House and the remainder of the team ~vill be coming in in a matter of days and ~v-e are looking fonrard their advice and their input and their assistance. He also operate the training schools, !'fr. Chairman, at Hhitbourne and St. John's, three schools in all which provide rehabilitative programmes for ~elinquent children. There are a hundred children~ I am told.,under the care of these schools.

And here again I am sure if hon. members have visited them - I did visit all of these institutions nrior to Christman, I have not had an opportunity to see them since, but I was more than imnressed ~.;ith the H-ay things Here done, TNith the dedication of the staff, and the tremendous 'vork which those people are doing. Hr. Chairman, the other arm of the department deals r.-:ith recreation and sports services .

I might say for the information of han. members that during the oast fiscal year grants ~-;ere made to four hundred community recreational projects ~.;ith a total cost of $2.5 million.In this year that amount has been increased to $3.5 million, $2.6 million of -,;.;hich of course hzs been committed as our portion in the ongoing programme for this year. The Summer Games., as ''e all know, T,;as one of the major events to have taken place in ~IeHfoundland.,was co-hosted by Corner Broolr_ and Stephenville~Hhic!-1 TATas sponsored by the department. Those games, ~-(r.

Chairman, involved one thousand athletes in final co~netitions, it involved about about four thousand in terms of regional playoffs.And hon.menbers are now arN"are of course that in 1978 mv denartment r.7ill 6129

~ay 5, 1977 Tape No. 2192 NM- 1 '1R. H. COLLINS: sponsor the Newfoundland Winter Games in Central Nelvfoundland Hhich is to be co-hosted by the towns of Grand Falls and Gander, And I am told that that would involve a similar number of athletes and approximately sixteen different sports. Mr.

Chairman, as I have said on past occasions, ~..re are very proud of our record in the past few years in terms of the advances which ~,;re have made in recreation in Newfoundland, We now have approximately thirty stadiums in the Province 'and twenty indoor swimming pools and there are literally hundreds of other types of facilities such as soccer pitches and softball diamonds and playgrounds, outdoor rinks, and so on \v-hich have been built largely with the assistance of the Department of Recreation, Probably the major event in sports ever to ever to t·ake place in Newfoundland will occur this -Summer when wiLh the Canada Summer Games we will see somewhere .. in the order of 3,000 athletes coming to St, John's from all over Canada and those athletes 1;..rill be participating again in approximately - somewhere between fifteen and twenty different sports.

With the facilities which are being provided by the City of St. John's, with considerable assistance from the Provincial Government, everybody I am sure in Newfoundland are looking forward to a happy Summer. HR. LUSH: How much has the Province put into the Summer Games or will put into the Summer Games~ ~1R. H. COLLINS: I do not know if I have it or not. I will certainly get the information. But we are looking forward to the Canada Slli~er Games.

The city,through their committee which they have established, they have been doing a tremendous job there and we are hoping that some of our NeTN"foundland athletes who have been preparing for a period of time nmv- will be able to give a good account of themselves. 6130

May 5, 1977 Tape No. 2192 ~. H •. COLLINS: I might mention, ~r. Chairman, also that not too long ago, about three or four weeks ago the first recreation conference ever to take place in Labrador was held at H2ppy Valley. The conference was attended by approximately 100 delegates from all over the Coast of Labrador~ ~,could not get in there myself, I spent about three hours at Torbay Airport·,and I do not ~,rant to be nasty about St. John 1 s lV'eather or anything else,but I am sure it is obvious to everybody v7hy I could not make it.

But some NM- 2 of the officials, the advance ·- guard had gone in, and I must say that those people did a tremendous job. The 100 delegates were flown in from various parts of the Coast. They were tickled to death, very enthused.

I am sure the han. member for Naskaupi will tell us and they have come up with a lot of recommendations which the department are putti~g toQether now in the final stages • . ~other, not a conference on that level,but further meetings lV'ill be held in Labrador to some extent with the individual bodies. 'We 'will probably get them together in groups if we can, but on 'the basis of the conference, the recommendations and suggestions which those people had, they have all been put together and our people ~vill be going back again to outline to the people in Labrador the various programmes, hmv best they can take advantage of them,etc.

We are very encouraged by that because 1 as we all know, particularly on the Coast of Labrador, very little has been done, minimal facilities are available for the people to be able to participate in anything in recreation~and I believe that it is most important that we follow through with that. I might say also, Mr. Chairman, that we have a conference planned- Newfoundland and Labrador Conference,this is a conference on fitness which will be taking place some time this 613.1

May 5, 1977 Tape .To. 2192 m - 3 MR . H. COLLi dS: Fal l , hopef ul l y i n Octo ber, i t migh t be November, but certainly in the Fall. We put together a group two or three months ago I suppose now, from the Deoartment of Education, the Department of Health, the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation and people from the University, and SOI!le federal people are involved also, to give us some advice as to the best direction to take for the conference. And it was suggested that before the conference took place we should be in a positin to have determine the state of the phsyical fitness of 6:132

Hay 5, 1977 Hr. Collins. Tape no. 2193 Page 1 - ms Newfoundlanders. And Hemorial University - I am sure it is Nemorial - have undertaken a survey to be able to indicate to us the state of the fitness of Newfoundlanders. And I expect that ';vhen we see that report we are all going to be terribly shocked, because I suppose if there is any group of people anywhere in the Western World who need to do more in terms of physical fitness, it must be Newfoundlanders. That derives possibly for a lot of reasons. IJe have never had the facilities, so a lot of people will say, I am not sure that that is all that important.

But may~e 'because of our climate and other things we have not really kept in shape. And I am very interested in that aspect because I believe ';vhen we talk about health, when we talk about recreation or whatever, I think it all comes back to fitness. And we have got to find ways and means, once ';ve can identify what the problems are, w·hich this team will do once we have done that we have got to find ways and means whereby we can better utilize the facilities which we now have, because the provision of those facilities is very expensive.

And as we go down the road there is going to be more and more competition for the provincial dollars, so that what they have in place now has got to be utilized to a greater extent. For instance, we cannot afford to have expensive gymnasiums in a lot of schools across Newfoundland being used only sometimes maybe for one or two hours a day. We have got to find some ways to change that. I know that a number of school boards across the Province are beginning to co-operate to a greater extent with us and with various sports groups.

There is still a lot of work to be done there, but I am sure ';ve can do that, and the same applies, I think, Mr. Cnairman, in terms of hockey stadiums or whatever. Granted those facilities must be used~and athletes who have something to give in terms of being experts, of being - not professionaJs- real top athletes, naturally, we have to give them the opportunity to show their best. But I believe 6133

Hay 5, 1977 Tape no. 2193 Page 2 - ms Mr. Collins. also that there is a responsibility on all of our parts that the facilities are made available to anyone who wants to go , just general skating or whatever it might be. I am sure that we can arrange - we can arrive at some way to bring about a better arrangement than \ve have now, and that will be the purpose of the conference.As I said, number one, when we go into the conference we will know, please goodness, \vhat the problems are) where they are; and then try to find \vays and means to cope with them. The department, Hr.

Chairman, is also responsible for youth services such as the 4- H Clubs. And we make grants to Girl Guides and Boy Scouts, boys clubs, cadets, church sponsored groups, etc. And, of course, there is also a considerable number of grants made to private agencies such as the VON, the Canadian Paraplegic Association, the Association for the Aging , Big Brothers, etc. All in all, Mr. Chairman, a great number of areas, with youth, and with different organizations involved in youth, all of the professional sports bodies.

And, as I said, we are very proud of our record in recreation, and sometimes a lot of people feel that money spent in recreation is not all that important, possibly not well-spent, but I am convinced- and I think the federal government are coming around to our point of view, too, by virture of the fact that they have established a department of fitness in sports- and that is that we have to find ways and means of not only making it possible for our young athletes to participate in organized sports, but also we must become more fit if we are ever going to get any control over our escalating health costs and all of the other implications.

Are the twenty minutes up? I MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. member for Windosr - Bucl"lans. FLIGHT: Thank you, ~'lr. Chairman. 61.34

~ay 5, 1977 Tape No, 2194 ~f- 1 ~. FLIGHT: Some of the last lines the minister used there, that there are people who believe that the money spent in recreation and rehabilitation is not well spent, I could not disagree with that more, I think that the money spent in recreation and rehabilitation is well spent,and I think the problem is there is not enough being spent, Now, Mr, Chairman, I w·ant to start with Exon House.

And it is time, ~1r, Chairman, that the administration would come clean on Exon House, Now it is one thing for the Premier or the Cabinet to suggest that they are bringing in some consultants,and to take a look at the system and the way Exon House is operated, to make recommendations and these changes will be made.:.- that is one thing and that is admirable - but what has left a bad taste in people's moutrs in this Province, Mr. Chairman, is that there ~vas child abuse in that hospital 1 and all the consultants in ~~~foundland are not going to wipe that away.

People ~re gq,ing to demand,and rightly so, that if there was child abuse it is not as a result of the system under which the hospital runs, it is not a result of the facilities available or nothing, it can only be traced to the attitude of the people who work in that hospital, And, ~fr. Chairman, this type of thing does not hurt until it gets close to home. We had a tragic accident at the Haterford Hospital. The patient escaped and presrnnably drowned. ~m-1, Hr.

ChaiTI!I..a.n, as I sit in my seat here and listen to the ~inister of Finance giving the statement as he knew it and as he been advised, although being concerned in that sense " the way every member of the House 1·7as concerned ,I did not feel personally attached tvpe of thing or personally affected, just in the same sense that everybody else felt about a terrible tragedy. But I arrived back in Buchans, ~1r. Chairman, and found out that that 61.35

~fay 5, 1977 TaJ?e No. 219l.. ~1M - 2 MR. FLIGHT: young man was from Buchans and suddenly the whole thing changed. The problem is, Mr. Chairman, that the people ~vho are most effected are the people who are hurt. And there are people all over this Island ~vho have got relatives, children in that hospital,and they are Hondering today as to ~vhether or not it was their child who was abused. And, Mr.

Chairman, I suggest to the government that it will not be enough,a report from a consulting firm saying that Exon House is well run, that we recommend this change and that change,will not be accepted.And I doubt very much if the Opposition or the media or anybody else in Newfoundland will rest until the government cbmes clean as to whether or not there was child abuse, what brought on the abuse~and what action has been taken against the people, whether it is through administration, all the way down the line, ~!r. Chairman. If anyone in that institution i~ i~ any way responsible for child abuse should be fired.

Clean them out every one of them. And that is not an unreasonable request, Mr. Chairman. I am afraid, and there are other people in this Province afraid,that we are seeing the old red herring trick with regard to Exon House, with regard to the child abuse. The main recommendation and the main concern of the nurses when they first broached goverrment was child abuse. It was not with regard to the facilities or regard to the shifts or regards to the Harking conditions, it was that they had seen, witnessed child abuse. That was the concern.

And the Premier comes in to take everybody off the hook, stands up and makes a great statement that we are going to bring in consultants, we are going to look at the \vhole operation., now that He knmv what the problem is 1-1e intend to correct it. Tf!ell, Mr. Chairman, the problem is child abuse, 6136

Xay 5, 1977 Tape ~o. 2194 ~1R. VLIGRT: maltreatment of~in most cases,retarded children. HoH' low can you get l And this administration stands by and says that we are going to fix all the problems in Exon House by bringing in a team of consultants who can tell us w·hat is wrong and how to correct it, Mr. Chairman, justice ~vill not be done until it is~beyond any shadow of a doubt,indicated as l'TH - 3 to whether or not there was child abuse, who was responsible, and until action is taken ·against the people responsible, And that applies to anybody in any office of any calibre of any station in Exon House.

And when the minister stands up to speak agin I want to hear hL~ address himself to this situation in Exon House. I want to hear whether or not there is an investigation going on as to ':vho ~.;as responsible for the child abuse and what action has been taken. DR. J. COLLINS: MR. FLIGHT: DR. J. COLLINS: \-lould the han. member permit Yes. For the clarification of the House, would the han. member like to define ~vhat he means by child abuse: That term can have wide ranging meaning. Would you like to define what you mean by child abuse in this instance? MR.

FLIGHT: The han, member has put his finger on the problem. ~4ybe child abuse should be identified but my

interpretation of the kind of child abuse that went on in that hospital was battered children. Children being struck, hit, battered. bruised. As a matter of fact,there was some very vivid descriptions in some of the local papers shortly after of incidents taking place in the hospital and how - I am not going to go into the details. That is un to the administration to determine and they have not done it yet. 61.37

May 5, 1977 Tape no. 2195 Page 1 - ms ~fr. Flight. It is up to the Hinister of Recreation and Rehabilitation to determine to what e..xtent there was child abuse, exactly ·.;hat the child abuse >vas, by whom was it perpetrated, and what action is going to be taken to the people by his administration to, number one, to make sure it never happens again, and number two, to see that the people responsible are punished. Because, Mr.Chairman, in my opinion if child abuse is proven that is criminal.

And people who are prepared to work in an institution like Exon House,certainly nobody in that House should be permitted to continue to work there if they have the type of personality that would lend itself to the battering or maltreatment of children . I am quoting from some of the local media, Mr. Chairman, and I would hope the minister when he stands up ~·70uld address himself to it. My problem, Sir, is that I do not think that the original charge, the child abuse charge, has got the kind of coverage , has got the kind of attention that it should have had.

I believe that when the nurses came and made recommendations - the original charges to Recreation.- it was based on that, maltreatment and abuse of patients in that hospital~ And I believe the administration's approach was simply a case - they realized the error; they realized what was happening, and they realized that what they had allowed to happen for something like eight months.

Imagine an administration having in their possession recommendations from the Nurses Association that there was child abuse going on in a hospital that they were responsible for, and something like eight months being allowed to elapse and not even an investigation! How callous can you get? And, }1r. Chairman, if I appear to be over-dramatizing here- I realize. I agree with the minister. I used the word batter. That is an ugly word to use. }!aybe it \vas a bad choice of uords, but I am simply trying to put into perspective the feelings of the people in thig 'P'!'C'ViTIC~ • 61.38

May 5, 1977 Tape no. 2195 Page 2 - ms lfr. Flight. They are not basically concerned. We have to assume that Exon House has been run up until nov7 - it has been run by this goverrnnent - \ve have to assume that the facilities and that the programmes and that the calibre of people working there knew what they were doing. Hy Lord, we do not need people to come in from the Hainland or ·from any other institutions and tell us how to improve that facility. We have to assume that it vms being run the way one would expect a home for retarded children to be run.

The fact is 3and the inescapable fact is that this thing came about by the known,proven, abuse, maltreatment of children, and that is the issue that has gotten the least attention. That is the issue, Mr.

Chairman, that I want 1 and the members on this side of the House want,and the general public of Newfoundland ~·;ant, particularly people who have children in that hospital or relatives_ and they are scattered all over this Island ·:.- and · if the minister, when he stands up to speak, does not address himself to that specific issue - never mind the issue about what we are going to do to improve the calibre and the ~.Jay of life and the services of Exon House--l want the minister to address himself exclusively to the charge of child abuse and maltreatment.

And if necessary I want tabled in this House who it was who was abused , what children were abused and 1vho abused them and hmv it could happen in a system like this? And why it would take seven months after it was first brought to the attention of the administration, why it would take seven months to have any action taken or to have it considered? That is probably enough on Exon House, Mr. Chairman, but that is not all that is going to be heard on Exon House. I look forward to the oninister ~•hen he addresses himself to child abuse. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I notice in one of the subheads that the minister has allocated $10,000 for alcohol counselling, I think. :-1r. Chairman, it is time for this House to recognize ~•hat alcohol is doing to the young people of this Province. One of the most honourable, 6139

Hay 5, 1977 Tape no. 2195 Page 3 - ms Hr. Fli ght. noteworthy ·crusades being carried on in this country in my mind today is that crusade being carried on by the Han. Jim McGrath against liquor, drugs - advertising as it affects children. Now, Hr. Chainnan, .. 6140 .·

:1ay 5, 1977 Tape 2196 PK- 1 Xr. Fli~ there is no question in this world that young people are affected and impressed by T.V. advertising. I smoke. I should not,but I do. Right now I have an eight year old son and every time I take my cigarettes out of my pocket this past four years he has attempted to try and stop me. ! tell you he has helped me cut down on smoking. And the only reason is because it is go~ to him day after day, after day, after day, after day, the anti- ' smoking ads on T.V. Now, Mr.

Chairman, if that affects the children that way then I assure you that when they see,an eight, nine, ten eleven year old child sees on T.V.a bottle of Holson's or India between periods in a hockey game, and the advertisement says "We are not saying our beer ~.;rill make you better looking. He are not saying it ~.;rill make you virile, we are not saying it will make you get more \vomen, but ~.;re a;:-e saying, you know, we have the best beer in the ~>70rld. 11 And the implication is 1 1lf you want to be Hith it, if you want to be a man then you better drink beer." And it is ~.;rorking, Hr. Chairman.

He lowered the drinking age in this Province to nineteen recently,in the last two or three years. And I ar.1. told by clergymen, by organizational workers, the various organizations that sponsors youth dances, and this type of thing that alcohol is the biggest problem being experienced by them today. Nmv-, Mr. Chairman, it is one thing if the minister~ or if this Province, and I do not know if the control is completely ~>1ithin the jurisdiction of the Provincial Government, but let ·~:s do something else, let us turn it around, Hr.

Chairman; instead of advertising showing them how beautiful it is to drink beer,let us slap the cameras, let us put the cameras on some man who comes home loaded drunk at bvelve o'clock tonight and beats up the family and thrm·lS the T.V. through the >vindO\v. Let us pick out the homes in ~Te,.;foundland and show them that sicle of drinking.

Let us take them and shm·.T then the destitute, the Harbour Lights dm-m on \·Tater Street, show them the results of the drinking. ~le are taking the people of ::IeHfoundland, \ve are making $15 million, $16 million, $17 million a year by pushing liquor in every r..ray T,;e can on t:·,em, and ~.;e a!."e allovTing 61.41.

~·1ay 5, 1977 Tape 2196 PK - 2 Xr. Flight: a measly $10 million a year for the rehabilitation,for counseling on alcohol, $100,000 there for drug and alcohol addiction, but alcohol costing $10,000 is the subhead. Hr. Chairman,the Federal government had the nerve, it was rough politically, but finally they '\vere convinced to put on the cigarette packs that.smoking is injurious to your health.

Hell then I ask the minister why '\Ve cannot, probably Ccnsumer Affairs vJOuld be the proper minister, 'tvhy we cannot have stamped right on the label on the bottle of beer or hard liquor that~This is injurious to your health. The biggest health hazard in Canada today, Hr. Chairman, is the consumption of alcohol. r e are running the risk with the way we are pushing alcohol today in Newfoundland of having half our young people alcoholics before they reach the age of twenty-five. Now, Hr. Chairman, we will talk about the shape, the condition, the shape our young people are in. Hr.

Chairman, it is time - There have been petitions presented in this House with regards to the closing of taverns and clubs on Sundays. Hell, Mr. Chairman, it is time also maybe for the Minister of Rehabilitation to avoid He will be rehabilitating - Some Minister of Rehabilitation will be rehabilitating ten years from now people who are fifteen and sixteen who are drinking liquor in this Province because it is so easily attainable, because '\Ve as thei~ leaders are telling them it is the proper thing to do, we are allowing the people who are making the money.

You know I understand we have some money in those breweries dovm there. It is the local beer that I see advertised. I am not talking about - The minister can stand up and say, Oh we cannot control national advertising. India Beer is not being advertised nationally. Blue Star is not being advertised nationally. Dominion is not being advertised nationally. Screech may be advertised nationally,but it is brewed here so I think it is time for us to meet our responsibilities and try to cut back on the consumption of liquor in this Province,and the first place to 6142 /

Hay 5, 1977 Tape 2196 .TII - 3 ~ffi.. FLIGHT: cut back is to clamp dow~ on the kind of advertising that ~ve are permitting in this Province. Mr. Chairman, some time ago there was a very tragic accident 6143

}·ray 5, 1977 Tape 2197 . .l '.B-1 • .:T_ • FL I GBT : in ~;e~·r-Foundlanc'!, ,,re sar,r a fire at an Olcl Age Home. It ~vas a tr<'lf-e~y beyond cescription. ':'here Pas at that tirre ,after the tragedy, there T>J.?.s an inc1.icati.on by govern:c.ent that an inspection \vould be carried out and certain standarc1s imposed on all ho~,es in Newfoundland,both private and government run~with regard to safety standards to ensure that this type of accident, this type of tragedy would never occur again.

Now, sinr.e the initial statements by government following right on the heels of t~e tragedy I have not heard myself - ~aybe so~ebody else have and the minister can indicate 1v-hat steps he have taken - but I have not hearc1 a word as to lvhether there is an ongoing programrn .e, whether the facilities of these homes have been upgraded, whether the fire protection necessary has been installerl. I knoT.,- the Ner.vfouncland Hotel had to instalJ so~_e sprinklers OT' sane lvarninl! syste!"s. But haT,.;r about the senior citizens homes sprinkled across this Province.

Are you indeed following through Hith the programme annotmced by your administration? Can Nerqfoundland feel safe now that all the senior citizens homes in Newfoundland have either been upgradec1 to a point where there is no fire hazard or that the work is ongoing or has anything been done? If the minister 't-TOuld address himself - yes the hon. I!'.e!l'.ber for Burin indicated that it is too bad that 1;-7e have to lose lives to get action and that is becoming all the more, that is becomin.g more and more significant;Yr.

ChairF.an, over the past fe\•7 years in this urovince. ~-fore and rn.ore we have incidents.I just referred to Haterford. That tragic accident a feF days ago in TJaterford probably had more to do with the bringing: about of the soluti·~·n He are see in~ nOT·7 than anytr.ing else. But :i_t took a Cleath. It '"CIOJ<- 2 lot of c1eaths to n-et th.e tvne of action ''e are suppnsec1 to have been ~ett:i.na but r,;e do not know if vie are getting or not iD the case of thP senior citizens~ ro~ese So again I ~·mule J H·e the l"linister to acdr.ess :Ci~self to Fhat e~:act}y :i.S r. appenin~ idth 61.44

Yay5,l077 1'1'1.pe 2197 LB-2. ~<"P .• FLICHT: regar-=.s to, particula:.--l:r ~·7 ith the safety aspect, Hith the safety precautions being taken in the senior citizens homes of the province. ~o~,·. }<r. ChairT".an, the minister m.entioneC. Sui!U"!ler · Games, in t~1~ :-ecreation aspect. Sut"':I!'.er Garres. A few cl.ays ago~ l''r. Chairman, a r.1eek or two ago 1:ve ·Hent through a debate here and the debate Has based on Labrador; Hhy the feeling in Labrador is Hhat we have today in this province? r.Thy the feeling of anti-Newfoundland ,that ~,7 e are not concernecl about them. 1ffiy? Hr.

Chairman, when one realizes that the Summer Games had been avrarced to the Labrador rity -I·Tabusb area and this administration just took them a~·ray from. them, and put it in Grand Falls and Gander }'~.. H. COLLINS : I vdll !!ive tbe facts \•Then :r: snea1 ( . ~-~.FLIGHT: The minister 1-ri 11 ,l?ive the facts \•Then he ·' the minister ~v-ill give t1-:e facts.

I remember CBr open line - the CBC Here and Now show where the people, the people that I listened to were the people involved, the people involved with the prograll1II'e Hho had dor:e all the groundwork, who had asked that the .~ames be provided in Labrador City. Apparently everybody concerned was - all indications were the games would be held in t.Jabush-Labrador City. Sucidenly the people concerned in Labrador, the peo:Jle, the orp.:anizers were told that the gai!les r.rould he in Grand Falls. Novr the minister can C!eny that if he wants.

But in denying it he is going to have to dc.spute the r.vord, not my vrord, the word of the people in L3.brado::- City and H~bush, who told all Nevrfoundland that they had the ~ui!!Iller ~ai!les ar.d that they •.-ranted. the Summer Games and had the facj_lities and had done the organization work. ~-'P .CF.t>.P'.E.Al·T: Order please. So Fhen he denies that - !<;:/.FLIGHT: So the ~.inister can - I 'l:·:rould appreci_ate it if t, e next time he speaks he v7oulrl ans'lver sor.<e of the noints th<J.t I llave raised here Nr. Chairman. 6145

~'l av 5, 1977. Tape 2198 RH - 1 Nr. Chairman, I thank the hon. C-hairman for recognizing me. ~ Chairman, reallv the ciost important, I sup9ose, as~ect of this ''department is the philosonhy behind the department. That is the most important thing, Sir. It is the 1:ind of department that you have to continually keep a watchful eye on. You have to keep up to date on things. You cannot afford to slacken off on that particular department at all. And I believe, Hr. Chairman, that th~ 1-1eakness of this deuartment is in the minister himself, that the minister is incompetent of running this department.

This denartment, Sir, is under the r~inister of Health at the present time due to restructuring. Tflhen restructuring was done shortly after the ~foores administration formed the government of this Province~ they carried out a restructuring programme changing various and sundry government departments that \.ras suuposed to be the salvation of ~Tewfoundland. ~.J'e have not heard a sound, not a peep about restructuring since. It increased the number of - I beg your nardon? . ' Mll,. LUSH: Was there evPr a full-fledped minister? MR. N'EARY: Yes there ~.,as. t-IF_.

L FSH: Not in this session. >.fR • ~TEARY : No, not in this session. There ~vas a full-fledged minister at one time. But no"t-1 we have an acting minister. ~-le have a minister who covers tr.ro departments. And even in the portfolio to ~vhich that hon. ~entleman is resnonsible, the Department of Health, the ~on. gentleman has shied a"t-Jay, from his resnonsibilities. So ~vhat ~·muld you expect the han. 2entleman to do \·lith a portfolio that reall'r is probably - he probably loolr ,s unon it as a bit of a nuisance to hir.1? And in the second place, : rr.

Chairman, Recreation and Rehabilitation should not he in any Hay associated ,.,ith the Department of Health. It should not. It should not co~e under tl-te '· ~inister of Eealth. T':ere is a tendency to run the ir, stitutio~s more like hospitals than rehabilitative institutions. "r. r:hairman, I ha'(1nen to he the ninister resnonsible for part of that denartment for three and a half vears. I Has t'le one \vho introduced 61.46

Mav 5, 1977. Taue 2198 RF. - 2 !v~. NF_<\...l{Y : the nane, rehabilitation, into the vocabulary of the TT'.inistry in this Province. MR. MORGAN: That is about all you did do. I changed the name of the Department of r,relfare, which Has demeaning, I changed it from the Department of r,relfare to the Depart­ ment of Social Services and Rehabilitation. And then the adi!'.inistration, when they restructured themselves out of business to insulate them­ selves from the ordinary people of this Province, they split the department. And that,in my opinion, was a mistake. They should not have split it. And, ~~r.

Chairman, I paid very strict attention to 1-1hat the han. gentleman \vas sayin~ about Exon House in the early part of his remarks, in the hon. gentleman's introductory remarks. And I got ne\vS for the han. gentleman, Sir. The han. gentleman had the face, the face of a robber's horse to stand uu and say the minister is changing t!le direction of Exon Fouse. Exon House 1·7as bought and purchased from the An~lican Orphanage Corporation o.f this Province to be used as a training institution. Does the hen. minister realize that?

Do not try to come in this House and give us a snow job about changing the direction of the denartment. I was the one who signed the document. I negotiated with the Anglican Orphanage Corporation for the purchase of that building and spent over a million dollars renovating the building and getting it ready for mentally and physically handicapped children in this Province for a training instiution, not to be run as a hospital. ~nd •·Then I left the ministry on January 18, 1972 that was a training instition. ~fr.

Chairman, people have been sent- Doctor Stanley~~·<ho is one of the most outstanding men in his field of rehabilitation in Canada a ·hospital has been named after the gentleman over in St. John, ~Te1v P.runswic1z =came to this Province on a voluntary 1;,asis and gave us ,guidance and ~ave us the benefit of his exnerience and advice before we onened Exon Pause. Doctor Pottle, / 61.47

Hay 5, 1977 Tape 2199 JM - 1 HR. NEARY: Dr. Renouf she was at the time, nmv Dr. Brmm. had a special committee set up to advise us on how to run Exon House as a training institution .. And the han. minister will find in the files reports and reams of documents telling us the kind of a training programme that He should run in that institution. The minister will not find out anything ne~v from the people who are being brought in now as a result of the controversy at Exon Rouse. The minister will not find out anything that he did not know before because it is all in the files of the department.

The trouble is, Sir, and it is not because I left, if I had stayed maybe it would have happened but I doubt it very much becau 'se I was keeping a very close, a very watchful eye on Exon House because it happened to be my baby. Before that time, before Exon Rouse ~.;as open~a lot of these kids vJere in homes and a lot of them r.vere up in the Children's Horne on \·later Street Hest. They were out in homes sometimes locked up in bedrooms, tied to bedsteads and everything else and they were brought in to be given some training. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Chairman, if there is one thing that I am proud of in my lifetime,and I would thank God I was given the opportunity by the han. former Premier of this Province to use whatever ability I had in this regard, if it is one thing that I am proud of, Sir, it is the work that I did for the young people of this Province and for the senior citizens of this Province,because the programme that they are now carrying out in building senior citizens homes is the programme that I started ~v-hen I was Hinister of Social Services. The adoption programme that they are following is one that I started.

I think I could probably claim almost single-han~e~ - cash payment to people on Helfare instead of the voucher system, payment by cheques. The reforms 1·7ere absolutely fantastic, Sir, and dramatic in three and a half years. And if there is one thing that I am proud of, Sir, and I thank the hon. gentleman for giving me the opportunity to use whatever talents I had in this regard, is the work that I 6148

May 5, 1977 Tape 2199 JM - 2 J:.fR. NEARY: did for the young people of this Province, right from ne1vborn babies right up to children Hho were sixteen years of age in the training homes cvho '\ve had to let go \·lhen they became sixteen years of age under the law. And so I do know wherein I speak, Sir. I think I do know a little about this subject and I think it is wrong, Mr. Chairman, and I do not care whose toes I walk on, but I think it is ~vrong to turn the controversy at Exon Rouse into a political issue. It is morally wrong, Sir.

I do not think the situation~ as far as child abuse is concerned,I do not think the situation is quite as bad as it has been painted. There has been a gross exaggeration for whatever reason, Sir, I do not know, what the motives are I cannot say,but I will say this, Mr. Chairman, that I vmuld be very, very surprised and as a matter of fact I would be shocked to learn that children have been beaten and Exon House because I do not believe it. I do not think it is true. As a matter of fact I am sure it is not true.

I think probably there is more truth to a little bit of a power_struggle that may be going on within that institution~directly resulting --- -- fro~ the l~ck of direction from the minister of that department, the minister responsible for that department. That is the reas,on for it, Sir.

The low morale at Exon Rouse is the cause of the trouble, the low morale that is being brought about by a minister who has been completely ignorning the recommendations and the cries and the breakdown in cammunica:tions between the minister's department and Exon House by placing inco~petent in charge of the i~stitution who do not know how to deal with people, who do not know how to cope with the situation, who do not know how to get her back on the rails. She got off the rails after 1972 and the minister and the staff do not know ho1v to get her back on the rails.

They allowed the institution to start being run like a hospital. The thing to do is to keep the children drugged, to keep them on tranquillizers, to keep them auiet so they would not be bothersome. 6149

'·fay 5, 1977. Tane 2200 P.H - 1 And the morale detoriated. Do hon. members not remember t':•70 years ago, three years ago in this hon. House I talked about the morale at Ex:on House. ~R. J. C/1-R.TER: T,_ere is no need for shouting. ~-~. NEAP.Y : Hr. Chairman, I am not shouting, :rr. Chairman. I ha?nen to be pretty mad about this situation. TI1e han. gentleman from St. John's North may not be interested but I can assure the han. gentleman that I am. And I think it is a shame, Sir, it is a shame the way the government and the minister has ignored institutions lH e Exon House and did not take a greater interest.

That is the result of restructuring and taking tlcat particular branch of the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation, of splitting it up and taking it a~·ray from that department. So it all gets hack, Vr. Chairman, to a mRtter of philosophy. lmd the hon. minister now finds himself ri~lct in the middle of a controversy that t~e han.. minister has not said too much about,like all other things, like t~e fisheries scandal, like the Faterford Hospital strike.

The minister snled a~·-ray from it, ignored it, let his colleagues take the ran. ~<"'hen is the trinister of Health going to stand up 'l.nd the :--anister of Rehabilitation and Recreation and take the responsibility and take the rap for the good or the bad of his departments. So, Mr. Chairman, I hone that steps 't·rill be taken to rectify this situation at F.xon Pause at an early a date as possible.,because as lon~ as the morale is bad over there and vou ha.ve this internal bickerin~ and power strur;gle, Hhatever it is that is goimz on, Sir, then the ones that 'tvill suffer -.:vill be the children.

They mav not suffer l:>y being beaten, but thev 't-rill suffer in other Hays. psycologically. And thev r.d.ll not ~et that tender loving care that these ~dds need. That is the irrportant thing, Sir. The ~1hole idea of Exon JiousP., Sir, >vas to run it as a training institution. And rqe moved as manv children as r.Je could froM the hoMe on Pater Street r.:est that could ·l:e trained and brought c~ildren in from around the Province that cculd

~-~ay 5, 1?77. Tape 2200 RH - 2 ~-~. "N'FARY: 1:-le trained. />.s a matter of fact, Sir, the first children '~<7ho went out to sc~ool, Hho event out to a regular school , ~vent out from Exon Rouse under my administration. And then the minister tells us he is going to change the direction of Exon Fouse. Change the direction of it, my eyeball! Mr. Chairman, there are a number of other matters to ~vhich I 1:·72nt to refer. I 1:vant to refer to the minister's comments in connection ~vith the Summer Games.

And I am not_ going to go back and rehash this scandal involved in the land transaction of the Summer Games that the Minister of Justice would not allow an inquiry to go ahead on in this Province. That is a mark, Sir. That is a dark cloud that Hill hang over the location of the Aq_uaren _a · forever and ever. I am talking about the scandal involving the nurchase of the land. Hr. Chairman, Hhat I r,Jant to find out from the minister is 1:-1hat is going to happen to all this propertv Hhen the Summer Games are over?

There is a gigantic struggle ~oi:ng on at the moment between the recreation people, the City Council, }femorial University~of who is going to assume the responsibility for all these posh facilitie~. multi-million extravaganza that is being built. Hho is zoing to assume the responsibility for them? Is the Province going to take the responsibility for the -·Aquarena which is going to cost the people either of this Province or of this Citv a minimum of $300,000 a year to operate?

Hill the government assume that deficit, assume that responsibility despite all the malarky that v.7e are hearing from the P.R. con TI'en, 11 0h, it is going to be a great thing;, a beautiful thing for :re~vfoundland these fine facilities we are going to have after it is over~' I am told '·remorial University 1:vould not touch it ';·Jith a barge pole because it is going to cost too much.

The City Council are now hacking a\·7ay from it. r.lho is going to end uP Hith t"lese facilities and Hho is <soin~ to nav for the deficit in the Aquarena and all the other facilities that ~ve have around, scattered around that rvill be a hanf!:over from the Summer r.:ames? ''·Te sm·l the other night on television or in the ne~,rsnaDers, I think it Has t1:1e Heekerid the hanr:over from F.xno '0 7. 61.5:1.

Hay 5, 1977 Tape no. 2201 Page 1 - ms J:ir . :-Teary. I do not knoH' if han. gentleman read the comments of the various dignitaries and people in authority in the Province of Quebec and -in Montreal in connection w·ith the Expo 6 7 facilities that were going to be built and, Oh what a great thing this 'tvas going to be for mankind and for Canada~ And today all you have got is a shambles, the buildings are falling down. And I say it is a good thing my han. friend, the member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood),rescued a couple of these buildings and brought them to Newfoundland, the Czechoslovakian Pavilion and the Yugoslavian Pavilion. I know where the crockeryware ended up, down in Robin Hood Bay. That is some of the crockery ware I was talking about 1vher. I ~ut that question on the Order Paper. Otherwise these buildings would have been run down ~f they had not been brought to Newfoundland. They would have been run dmvn. And my han. friend was condemned, and criticized and beaten and browbeaten from one end of this Province to the other. And today you look at i.Jeekend and what do you see? ..

You see buildings with the roofs fallen out of them, the doors hanging off, the windows hanging out over at Expo 67. And here we are with this __ _A.a_uarena over here. What is going to happen to that? Who is going to take it over and run it? It is an orphan. It is going to be an orphan. I can see it coming. The Minister of Rehabilitation does not want to touch it. The ~niversity does not want it, and the City Council does not want it, because it is going to be too expensive to operate, a minimum of $300,000 a year. So I will be interested to hear what the minister proposes to do about this problem.

And then what about the Ferryland stadium? Mr. Chairman, we were told when Mr. Charlie Power \Vas a member of this House that the government had committed itself to a stadium for Fer~yland, and as far as I can learn, Sir, to the best of my knowledge, nothing has been done yet to fulfill that promise to the people of Ferryland and give them 6152

Hay 5, 1977 Tape no. 2201 Page 2 - ms Hr. Neary. their long overdue promised stadium. Hill it be bait, Sir, in the upcoming Ferryland election? Will it be held out~dangled as a carrot in front of the voters in Ferryland again? It is only after being an issue now in three elections on the Southern Shore - threel They used it in three elections, and I bet you a dollar that Charlie Pm-1er, and his crowd ~-1ill be back again dangling the carrot and saying, Oh, the big issue on the Southern Shore in Ferryland district is a staidum so that our young people can enjoy recreation facilities.

Well, Sir, it ~-1as promised three years ago . Why is it not there? Why? The ~tinister of Finance knows why it is not there. I do not know if the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation knm-1s why it is not there. But maybe the bulldozers ~vill move in now as soon as the by-election is called, if it is ever called. It may be a good thing to have a by-election, ana ther by-election. r1ayb e the third time will be lucky. Maybe the third time round, Sir, they "YTill get their stadium. They have not gotten it yet, and I want to hear what the minister has to say about that promise, and that commitment.

Another matter, ~tr. Chairman, that I want to hear the han. gentleman comment on is a matter that has bothered me for some time, and that is forcing people w'ho go into senior citizens' homes with a few dollars in the bank, forcing them, Sir, to get rid of their bank accounts, forcing them to pay up to, I think, $1,200· -a month, to as high as $1,250 a month at Hayles Home, to $1,000, $800, $500 1 - $900 a month in other places.

Some of the senior citizens, Sir, who worked hard, saved their money, and ~vho had a bank account - and there are only about a dozen of them I woulc say in the whole Province - these people are forced to spend their mvn money before they are allowed to be accepted into Hayles Home or in any other senior citizens 1 home in this Province. Now, ~· fr. Chairman, I can claim, I suppose, part of the blame for this, because - HR. COLLD1S: That statement that they are forced to spend their money before they can get in - 6:153

~ray 5, 1977 HR. NEARY: commit. MR . COLliNS: MR. NEARY: MR. LUSH: HR. NEARY: HR. COLLINS: to getting in. MR. NEARY: Tape no. 2201 Page 3 - ms Commit their money. They are forced to Well, they pay their way. They pay their way, Sir . \fuat did you say - $900, $1,000, $1,200 a month for some people. The fact that they have money is not a deterrent The fact that they have money is not a deterre nt to them getting in, but they are being discriminated against. 61.54 .

May 5, 1977 Tape No. 2202 NM - 1 MR.. NEA_"R.Y: ':::'hey have to give up their bank accounts. They have to keen paying their way until they are paupers. They are forced to become paupers with this foolish system. And I was always told that it was something that the Government of Canada insisted on, there '1-Tas an agreement of some kind that I c~uld never figure out. }mybe I listened to the officials of the department too much on this particular matter and I should have went ahead myself when I was minister ane wined it out, cut it out. It does not make any sense at all, Sir.

We put these senior citizens~homes there for our senior citizens without fear or favour, without discriminating - and my han. friend I believe knows what I am talking about, my hon. friend the member for Fogo (Captain Winsor) and there are other members probably in the House too. ~. CHAIRMAN: Ord er, l)lease! The han. member 1 s t'tventy minutes has elapsed. MR. NEARY: I will have to come back again, Sir. MR.. CHAIID-f...AN: The hon. member for Terra Nova. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I want to say a few words about this ost important department. The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) started off by saying that philosophy was most important in this area and the need to look at new developments and what the philosophy of what the department is. And I could not agree with him more. And the present structure seems to indicate that the government does not place too high a priority on this particular department. Now the point I want to make is this, that I do believe that if there is a~ong all the departments here one special division that needs a minister of its own it would be this one. But I am not sure that 'tve do Hith the '!)roper structuring.

I think for example that there is certainly some aspects of rehabilitation that should probablv ccme under Health but there are very few. And certainly recreation, that should nat come under this particular 61.55

Hay 5, 1977 Tape No. 2202 NM- 2 HR. LUSH: portfolio. The Minister of Health~! do not think~ can pull these two together. I do believe that there are many aspects of this department that could very profitably come under Education, very profitably. But I am inclined to believe that if there is one division that can do with a minister it is this. one because the needs are important and I do not agree with splitting the thing up and having one man to look after the whole division.

It is too important, too too important. ' But again I think there are aspects here that fall within the perview of educators and could better be done under that particular department. I never heard all of what the member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) said. I do not know ~vhether he suggested what should happen in this respect or not. MR. NEARY: ~1R. LUSH: Put it back "There it was in the first place. Yes. Now since I have been a member of this House there has never been a full-fledged minister of this department, again indicating - HR. NEARY: ~. LUSH: MR. NEARY: ~1...'R.. LUSH: There has been a full time minister.

Not since I have been here. No. No. Before you came. Right. I am saying since I have been a member there has not been a full-fledged minister of this department. I think there ~vas an acting minister, I believe the han. member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) was acting last year ' So this indicates certainly a lack of interest, or a lack of priorities by the govermnent ~vith respect to this particular division.

And I believe that the needs are great in this area, in the area of rehabilitation, in the area of recreation,and a most irnllortant area and I just \vant to say a fe\v ~,;ords about rehabilitation for a moment, and to reiterate 61.56

&y s, 1977 Ta{>e No , 2202 NM - 3 ~ . LUSH: some of the remarks already made by the hon . member for Buchans (~r . Fli~ht) and the hon . member for LaPoile (~1r . Neary) .

First of all though I want to say I think there is a tr emendous need in this Province to come up with some facilities , some trai ning programmes for the disabled and for the handicapped in this Province,and I am sure that the minister must realize this and I am sure that the demands on his depa r tment for this sor t of thing,for more space , for more institu tions for the disabled and for the handicapped is tremendous and the need is grea t, And of course the difficulty with coming up with programmes and institutions of this kind is that they are so expensive, The are tremendously expensive, and no doubt that puts a r estriction on the government but I do believe • 61S 7

~ray 5, 1977 Tape 2203 LB-1. ~p .LPSH: that there is T!lore that can be done. I am not a~vare or I am not knm·:ledp:earle of all the institutions in this prouince that look after disablec and the handicapped. Exon ~ouse is tre only one that I am aware of outside of the training schools for boys,which is a different place. ~fR.NEARY: Children Is Home on ~-later Street ~·lest. That is not a training school. }~ .• LUSH: Right. The i.T~ra Perlin School. What do they call that? You know,that is for ..:. MR. NEARY: ~entally retar~e~. r~R.LUSH: Pight. Anyway the point I was going to make_, T.;rhat is outside of St.

John's? ~'R.NEARY: ~fR.LUSH: !'-'P • ~TEARY : YR.LUSH: ~-'::?, • NEAPY : Harbour Lodge. Harbour Lodge, ~•here is that one? Carbonear. That is the only - Adults. P~ysically and ~entally handicapped adults. I opened that one too. ~-111-. LFSR: Sb •there is a great need to expand those services,if you will,and to get a couple of more institutions may be in Central Ne"t-Jfoundland and one on the Hest Coast.

But I realize the cost of those institutions, certainly because of the nature of the disability and the handicap that the programmes are more expensive to administer~and the buildings I expect are more expensive to build ~ecause there has to be certain architectural cesigns for these people. There is no auestion ~-:e are talking about a lot of money. But Sir, that does not at alJ take a~·rav from the need. The need is there.

I think Fe have to be a~·;o-are of that need and c1o everything l_)nssible to try and "'.eet those needs for the han~icapperl and for the ~isabled. ~hey teo have a right to take ac1vantage to b~ able to take advantage of the training programmes of certain educational orportunities in this . 6158

~fay 5, 1977 '!'ape 2203 LB-2. ~'!' .• L'l'SH: province the same an non-hanc1 _icapped people. I believe in the past that there has been an attitude that these people sh0ul~ be just cast aside. I think -.;..re have to change that philosophy. These people are human beings the same as all of us,and they have rights and privileges and a government, any government·~ must do all they can to insure that these people have the rights and privileges to be able to train themselves and prepare themselves to make the best out of life. Presently we do not have the facilities oi the institutions to be able to do this.

But every efforr must be made to insure that these people can train themselves to 1:!-:e best of their ability. Of course we have also people -.;.mo are non-trainable. This is a different kind of institution altogether. I am not sure that ~.;e have an institution at all that can properly look after these people. I do believe that Exon House from time to time tries to do its best, takes some of these people in,but- }!R. NEAPY : Some of the non-trainable.

PR.LUSH: But it must put an awful strain on the staff to have people ~..-rith varying degrees of handicaps and disabilities, some people non-trainable and then sane trainable. Now there is a philosophy gaining support that He should p!'a~ably not isolate people ~.;ho are disabled and people ~.vho are handicapped but integrate them in ~·7ith non-handicapped people. I think that has some merit.

But certainly the people in our society who are non-trainable,I think this is a different institution and something that the .govern!!lent must be looking at and another point I think '~<7e must be very careful about the kind of people ~..-rho Hark in those institutjons, the institutions for the disabled ~mel. the handicapped. ~To-·• I have not been close to that in the last tHo or three years,but I do l:.:noH that bacY:-certainly t-,;,To or th't"ee years af;'o that it '"as felt,I believe ,that anybody off the street could come _;_ntn those places ancl. work Fith those people' '\o!Ork ~.Jith the hanciCA))pec anc Hark ~vith the disabled.

I knoer of "<;·.1hat I speak,that there r·ras no effort 6159 /

}~ay 5, 19 77 Tape 2203 LB-3 . !-.f?...L l:SH: to look at peo ple t-:ho are speciall y trained . rertainly t hese peo ple need people who are specially traine d, au d t ney are just not any ordinary t eache r . I, myself, a teac he r of 15 years,v 7ould not consider myse lf capa ble of working Hit h handicap ped people, people '"ith special disa bilitie s . I ~v<'t.tld not con side r myself trained.

It is a different type of training, different t ype of understanding. · I do believe the government must make ever y ef fo r t to ensure that people ,.rorking ~Tith t hese~ types of child ret;. .,the hancicapped, t he cl.isabled, that t hese peop l e are especially trained and I hEve noticed in the 6:160

r!ay 5, 1977. Tape 2204 RH - 1 ~ffi.. LUSH: last year or so,I have observed people who worked there and I know that there are people there, dedicated people, people ~.rho go there with an understanding and an appreciation for these people and do a good job. But I do believe the government must be concerned about certainly t~e tyDe of people that go there, that they are trained to be able to ~.mrk with these kinds of people. I will not say anything about the senior citizens' homes, Nr. Chairman, although I have some strong feelings about it. But I believe the member for LaPoile C~r.

Neary) certainly raised all the points that I vmuld 1v-ant to raise about that as did the member from Buchans (Hr. Flight). I want to devote the rest of my time to recreation. Again, a great need, a crying need for recreational facilities in this Province~ again in this r-rhole department one could criticize the government for not doing enough. But again I think we have got to look at the reCl.lity of t-,_e situation. And what I am more concerned about is not the total exnenditures of the department,but hm-l these expenditures are allocated, how they are indeed spent.

And I Hould hope that they are spent in a 1.ray that the taxpayers of this Province lvill get the most returns, spent in a 1vay that will give all of Newfoundland the most advantage for its money. And I am not sure that that is happening. Novr I believe the minister mentioned that there \•rere 400 communities or 400 projects that the government sponsored last vear to the tune of $2.5 lT'illion. :-Tm.;r, again, $2.5 million is not very much in view of the need. But He ha,,e got to be realistic about it. Nm.;r in my mvn district, I am not a~-rare of any money that vms spent on recreational facilities.

I am not saving there was not any. MR~ H. COLLINS: $2.5 million was last year's commitment. P-ight, ri~!'lt. MR. H. COLLINS: 400 projects. :~. LPSP.: 400 projects, right. 6161.

~·fay 5, 1977. Tape 2204 BR - 2 '·T-.. COLLINS : The hon. I!lember should understand, if ~e Hill permit me, that some of those projects are over a. neriod of three years or five vears. So the total cormni tment ~vould be much more. That '·7as a one year payment to the committee. '!R. LUSH: Right, right, I understand. But, ~~r. Chairman, this again, as I have said, is only a drop in the bucket to the need. But I am trying to be realistic about the situation. ~~d all I want to do is reinforce the feeling or reinforce the need, if you will, in this Province for recreational facilities.

The thing is, you see~ that I am quite oleased that this is a department, number one, that recreation particularly, is ·' recognized as being important because in Ner,rfoundland ·He have not come up to this feeling that recreation was rather imoortant. ~~!e have been a working people, and recreation is something new. But, Sir, do we need recreation facilities in this Province no,..r? \·Te need them in t~e \verst kind of r,;ay! So many young people in everv community with nothin~ to do, nm·rhere to go: There is no wonder t:,at they are venturing into alcohol and drugs, this sort of it.

The ~.;onder of it, Sir, is that there are not more,l·rith t"l-te lack of recreational facilities in this Province • • ~d I believe that we have got to look at this seriously. The minister made a good point 1vhen he talked about using the facilities of schools. You know, this is a sad indictment on our educational system because in many of our communities the school is the only place 1vith a g:nnnasium, the only place. A.Tld that gymnasium is used only,for the most part, from nine o'clock in the mornin~s till about five o'clocY. in the afternoons. That is the total use of it.

Then it goes from six o'clock, seven o'clock in the night, no use at all, not on a community basis. A fe~v teachers night go back and use it,but on a community basis it is not used. ~·rr. Chairman, this could fill a most irnnortant void. The schrols could be used for youn?: neonle to allm.; them to go in to take

part in recreational facilities at no great cost to the coTilillunity. And this is sad, indeed sad. 1 l<;nmJ in mv mm district that voung Deoole froTTl. t 1le ages of a':->out seventeen 61.62

'fay 5, 1077. Tane 2204 P.H - 3 ~rR. LUSF: to t\,renty-fi ve, sav, it is most difficult for t'hem to get a school gymnasium. Under certain circumstances they can~but they have got to go through a lot of red tape. And yet He can understand school boards' positions, you knoH, of 616'3

May 5, 1977 JH - 1 ~!R. LUSH: having the proper supervisory people there,but I am sure that can be done if only the school boards vJOuld loosen up, if they tvould take a different attitude. But I am sure that there are responsible people in the community who would go in and supervise - MR. H. COLLINS: That is underway. MR. LUSH: Right. I am sure that there is a loosening up~but not to the extent that all hon. members,I am sure 7would like to see. But it would break your heart almost to see those beautiful gymnasiums throughout the Province lying idle for a large part of the day. MR.

SMALLWOOD: And that w·ould apply virtually to the tvhole of the school. MR. LUSH: Pardon?· HR. SNALUJOOD: Does that not apply not only to the gymnasium but all the space and facilities of the school? MR. LUSH: Sure,that is right. Sure. That is right or it could be used - HR. MURPHY: Could I make just a short statement because I am very much interested myself? '\•lith reference to after hours, I know it is a great worry on the part of school boards~ the damage and all that What is the situation outside of St.

John's- I am familiar inside - of alumni and ex-pupils 1 associations getiing together perhaps to take some responsibility? Is there a move towards that e~d? You know ,for example, dmm in' the member's area, have you ex-pupils like we had the Patrician's Association? For example~St. Patrick's Hall or - I am wondering just how prevalent that is in the outside parts of the Province and if He could not encourage that? Perhaps someone graduates.,if he tvould come back and sort of take over? You I know,it is just a general question. I am just wondering. ~1R. LUSH: Hr.

Chairman, I can only speak for the area that I am familiar with?and I do not find that sort of organization coming / - 6:16-4

Hay 5, 1977 Tape 2205 JN - 2 ~ffi. LUSH: to fruition or even close to it. You do not find that. But certainly there should be something. be done. Something like this can HR. SUALLWOOD: Do they even have an alumni association? XR. LUSH: That is right. They do not because \.;ell, I do not know 'tvhy, but there are enough teachers there and other - MR. S:t-fALLWOOD: There is field there for someone to do it, is there not? MR. LUSH: That is right. Sure. MR. M1~h~: The teacher's field is a job, that is what we found, in the day. At night time, it is voluntarily and that is another matter. ~m.

LUSH: AnY"tVaY it is certainly something~ and as the han, member from ~villingate mentioned and one that I support and agree with wholeheartedly, that not just the school gymnasium but all of the school, the entire school can be used for young people and for adults after hours and can be certainly used to much mere advantage than what is presently the situation. And another point worth mentioning is the school grounds itself. Now the minister mentioned about developing soccer pitches and baseball dia.I!londs and: this sort of thing.

In many communities the only piece of land that is suitable at all, sensible fo~ it is the school grounds. Now there is the other aspect of course that some of our schools are built in the wars t places in the ..,.mrld as far as with playground availability and this sort of thing. But in many areas~and here in St. John's~ we have schools built on large plots of land. From May or certainly when school closes from June up until September they are never used.

Again I think there should be some move here to make sure that we develop those areas, during the periods when the school is closed particularily that the land is just not lying dormant, that we can develop them into soccer pitches and into baseball diamonds. \·ie can do this and at no great cost. But again of course this is just a ne1.;r :rroveTient because in :·TevTfoundland, particularily in rural . 6165

!·fay 5, 1977 TApe 2205 MR. LUSH: Ne·wfoundland., that we have not considered this to be a very high priority.,but it is becoming one. It is and \·le nust develop recreational facilities if we are to help young people to direct their lives in the proper way. 1\Te must do this. He must do it. And the minister mentioned physical fitness JM- 3 and of course ~ve know the situation \vith physical fitness all across Canada.

I think it was something like three or four years ago in a test administered to young people that it was found out that they were far belmv their physical condition, what they should be for · their age level,and I expect Newfoundlanders are probably nothing different from the Canadian average. And if recreational facilities would be a requirement to improve our physical fitness then I ,.,auld suggest that we are belmv the Canadian average in this respect. But, Hr. Chairman, the need is great.

And one other suggestion I \vant to make, because again I realize , this is - we are getting into expensive things and we have to be realistic about it. I think the same analogy can be made in recreation as somebody made with reference to our water and sewer systems, getting these Cadillac systems. I believe because of the nature of our communities that we have to moderate, modify some of the things tv:e want. \..J'e have to bring them together. For example'}that is one thing. All of the communities in Newfoundland we have been a bit parochial. He want everything ' 6:166

Hay 5, 1977 Tape no. 2206 Page 1 - ns :-rr. Lush. next door. We want a rink here; 1ve want a rink t~1ere, we ~-mnt a stadium here; we Hant a SvTi.'11IIling pool here. I thiP.k there has got to be a move on the part of government to convince people that you cannot have these things on a community basis. They have got to be on a regional basis.

If you are going to have a stadium in my district, for example, probably as much as I can expect or the people can expect right now is one stadium for the whole district, if the district were laid out properly, but it is not unfortunately. ~ NR • CHA IR11A.I.'l' : Order, please! .• The hon. member's time is up. MR. LUSH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. ~fR. CHAIR11A~: The bon. member for Exploits. DR. THOMEY: Hr. Speaker, I ~.;ould like to speak for a few ':---- minutes more on the philosophy of ~ehabilitation and Recreation than pick out any specific facets.

As we all know it is becoming an increasing complex problem, the care of our aged. I just wonder ' if it is the change in values of society, because when a person reaches a certain age nm.; so many of us ~re inclined to categorize them and put them in a certain little pigeonhole in our lives. I think that this is entirely wrong, but the cult is spreading. I happened to be in England a f e'.-7 years ago end was taken to see a new row of expensive houses, beautiful gardens and all that, and someone pointed out, there is the mother-in-law's home, this one, that one. And I inquired what they meant.

Any purchased home which had either two or three bedrooms, the purpose was to keep the mother-in-law C'r the grandparent out of these homes. I think that this is entirely vrrong, because those who are grov7ing old often can offer us so much in life as parents and as grandparents. They give the child and the boy and the girl a sense of belonging,because they can give the history of the family, the history going back for generations~often which ~.;e of the younger generation cannot do. I feel they should be revered rather than put in museums. And this is - 6:167

Hay 5, 1977 Dr. Twomey. Tape no. 2206 Page 2 - ms increasing all the time. Since 1971 ~•e have increased from 1,100 to 3,500 people in institutional care in Ne~vfoundland. I think this is a disgrace. As ~•e look back in history, just to name but a few of the remarl~ble people who have given something to our lives and to the lives of the world, in politics, Chancellor Adenauer, in art, Picasso, in muscic Toscanini. We· have these people, and they are all around us.

I have seen them in Newfoundland, the grandparents, the senior citizens, who have been able to teach the art of boat building, of fishing, of the very basis of humanity where they endoctrinate us as~ middleaged and our children. We must realize, too, that the cost is escalating all the time. For ambulatory patients it costs about $450 to $600 per month. For bed care, $900 and perhaps higher in a fe~v occasions. HR. NEARY: DR. TWmlEY The Hayles Home charges - Yes, that is right. Now, I wonder what alternatives we can hope for or think about in the care of these people.

I would like to feel that they are a part of the families still, a part of the nation, not a part of the institution. Perhaps there are some things ~ve could look into and consider. One is home nursing. Frequently these people do not require continued institutional care; ~aybe a help with their medications, a help with injections and a fe~v other little. minor things like that. The social worker visit . - the boy scouts and the girl guides . 6168

Hay 5, 1977 Tape No. 2207 NM- 1 DR. TI·l0~1EY: have a principle of doing one good service every day. ~faybe they could visit the old people ~vho are isolated from their families and help them with maybe writing a letter, running an errand to the local store,or just chatting for a little while to bring them into the reality of life.

Then a short-term visit to the senior citizens 1 home when the younger people want to go a~vay on a holiday, just have them in there as a kind of hotel for a month rather than say ,1r We cannot go on a holiday, here lies a liability; we ~vill get rid of this individual and put him into a home, in perpetuity until they reach their demise." Some other things; when you have seen older people in institutions they become mummified after a period of time. And I do not think that this is right. Because this should not happen. It is conditioned by the environment rather than anything else.

So maybe cottage units, lo~v rental cottage units,that might heln these people. There are remarkable facts about the old people, sixty-five and over in ~orth America,if they are asked. Fifty-one per cent of them will say, I am in perfect health. Only fifteen per cent of people sixty-five and over will say, I am in poor health. Rehabilitation; I think the ninister is to be commended in establishing two 'tvork training centres for the adult mentally ~etarded. This again is a forward advance in our approach to retardation and other problems.

Because these people,again like the aged, are frequently isolated from our community. They can be taught to do something meaningful,and they can be taught to be accepted, to feel they are a part of our society. Likewise, there is a continuing nrogramme in St. John's to heln the mentally retarded children. !his is helping the parents to recognize they are problems and also to see that there is a rav of hope for these kids. . 6169 /

}fay 5' 1977 Tape No. 2207 NM- 2 DR. THOMEY: On recreation, the other speakers have covered it adequately. I a~ree with the member for Terra Nova (~r. Lush) ••hen he said we are having Cadillac recreational services. I agree with him that it should possibly come locally, go into the schools, into the ball parks. Practic