PREL:DfiNARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 n.m. FRIDAY, ~y 27, 1977

May 27, 1977 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 3353 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PK - 1 I would like to welcome to the Legislature a number of groups of students, one group of fifteen students from Centennial College in Scarborough, Ontario accompanied by their teachers Mr. Steve Freed and Mr. Chuck Colby. Another group of nine Grade X students from Lake Melville High School in North West River accompanied by Mr. Chesley Cumby. These students are on an exchange visit and are accompanied by their hosts, students and teachers of Pleasantville School in St. John's.

Also visiting the House of Assembly are the senior classesfrom a number of schools in the Burin Peninsula, ten from the John Burke High School in Grand Bank, eight from Fortune Collegiate, and six from Pearce High School at Burin accompanied by their teachers ~r. Alfred Anstey, Mr. Arch Evans, Mr. Vey, Mr. Baker, and Mr. Cluett. I know all hon. members join. me in welcoming the students from Ontario, from Labrador and from different parts of the Province to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEHENTS BY MINISTERS ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. [1R. E.

MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, the government, in 1973, temporarily designated certain lands for agriculture in the St. John's area until the St. John's Urban Region Study was completed. Since 1973 some of the land has been released from the designated area as more information on soil surveys and present land use was evaluated. The St. John's Urb2n Region Study has been completed and the Eenley Commission of Enquiry held extensive public hearings on the subject before submitting a report. The Henley Commission recommended without reservation that the areas with the most productive soil resources be zoned for agriculture.

Consequently, after detailed study of the needs for the St. John's Urban Region and the opt~~m use of the available

~1ay 27, 1977 '!'ape 3353 PK - 2 Mr. Maynard: natural resources, government has decided to .zone for agriculture on a permanent basis, the lands recommended for agriculture production in the St. John's Urban Regional Plan. Specifically this includes land in the Goulds-Kilbride area, St. John's East, and Conception Bay South. Existing farmers in these areas have been patiently waiting for a decision on the use of these lands. Because of t~e thrept and uncertainty of urban encroachment they have been reluctant to make personal capital investments in their farm units and expansion has therefore been curtailed.

The situation has been even more difficult for the younger people - sons of existing farmers and new· farmers - because they ivere not encouraged to commit their future to farming if the necessary sail resource '-las going to disappear. \hth the decision now made by government to preserve these lands,people can plan their future livelihoods with more certainty. It is well established that the Province has a limited supply of suitable agriculture land and that a major portion of the land currently in production is located in the St. John's Urban Region.

Approximately 65 per cent of our agric~ltural production including fresh milk, pork, broilers, eggs, and vegetables are produced in the St. John's-Conception Bay area. Fertile, productive soils are a natural,non-renewable resource and if not preserved they can quickly be lost forever. This has already happened to much of the land in the St. John's area. The Province can and should be more self-sufficient with respect to its production of fresh goods. We are capablz of producing three times the volume that is presently produced. Many industries and their employees, now existant in the St.

John's area, are dependent directly or indirectly on the agricultural industry. The soil resources ~herefore must be protected if the agriculture industry is to remain and expand. Further, the major market for fresh produce is in the St. John's area and therefore the decision to use the nearby soils for agricultural production is economically sound because of

May 27, 1977 Tape 3353 PK - 3 Mr. Maynard: the high costs and the perishability of the products if they were brought in from somewhere else. It is understandable that there will be some opposition to zoning

May 27, 1977 Tape no. 3354 Page 1 - ms Mr. Maynard. lands for agriculture because the same area is suitable for many other uses. However, numerous public hearings were held and both government and public positions were heard. In making its final decision government chose the alternative that will provide the most benefits in the long-term for the whole area. There is still ample area for urban and industrial development for St. John's and the surrounding communities.

I am sure that everyone is aware of the need~when considering the long-te~, for restricting some of our more suitable land for agricultural purposes. I am confident that many years in the future people of Newfoundland and especially those in the St. John's urban region will be able to reflect back to the decision made here and confirm that it was for their benefit. The agriculture industry is vitally important, not just for farmers, but also for consumers and preservation of the soil resources is essential for survival and expansion. Thank you. SOME HON. MID1BERS : ~. SPEAKER: Hear, hear!

The hon. member for Ccnception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, we listened with great interest to the outline by the minister concerning farmland, proposed farmland in the St. John's area. Now no one is going to challenge the outline of the very definite need to retain farmland. TJhat we do object to and have objected in the past, and I do again now is: one, that land that has been zoned agricultural - well the minister knows as well as I do that you would grow more vegetables, potatoes and so on on that glass table top there than some of the stuff that they have zoned as agriculture.

It is absolute nonsense and any farmer r,,;ho has been in the business at all will tell you so, and in fact has told the minister. Secondly, the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) and I and others over the years have stated,and we state again~that the government arbitrarily have frozen land and have, as a result of doing so, caused people to suffer unnecessarily. The

May 27, 1977 Tape no. 3354 Page 2 - ms Mr. Nolan. government is obliged, where they have frozen land, to buy that land from the people concerned. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the han. gentleman that his remarks are going beyond the permitted area of explanation asking for explanation and comment - and are getting into the area of debate. MR. NOLA.:.'T: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Anyway the remarks that I have made still stand obviously, .~d an the record of the House~ Tnis is not in any way questioning the Chair in spite of the ~on. arrogant gentleman opposite.

And the fact is that we would like to study the report as tabled by the han. minister. And the points that I have raised I hope he ~.rill address himself to before this session concludes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! NOTICES OF MOTION: MR.. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: Finally, ~. Speaker, I give notice that I T.vill on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Resuecting Labour Relations In 7he Province." ~. SPEAKER: ~.!R • NOLA...'l' : OR.-\1 QUESTIONS : The han. member for Conception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, a question for the Xinister of Forestry and Agriculture.

In view of the fact that the Cabinet of British Columbia have now rejected the minister 1 s approach on spraying for the spruce budworm, I am wondering if the minister has had any second thoughts on this matter in view of what has happened in B. C. since they decided to cancel the spraying this year?

May 27' 1977 MR. SPEAK~ : ~. MA'nlARD: Tape no . 3354 Page 3 - ms The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, I have not received any reports from British Columbi a. It is my understanding that it is verv simple for 3ritish Columbia to reject any spraying for the spruce budr..;orm simply because they do not have the problem. If they have the problem, it is in very, very small areas of the Province, bec ause of the other species chey have . The spruce bud~orm is oredomina t:ely disastrous in the fir trees~~hich are very scarce in 3ritish Columbia . ~~ any case, ~r.

Speaker, we do not have to ~eassess our position on spraying, becau se ~e are doi~g ~c as a spraving programme, and we a~e doing a very soall experi~ental field test in case we may have to go into a spraying programme

Hay 27,1977 Tape 3355 AH-1 MR. MATIARD: in 1978 there is no reason for us to reaccess our programme in any way because of any action that ~vas taken by any other province. MR. NOL&'l: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. NOLAN: Has the minister received any complaints from the West Co2st, specifically the Corner Brook area~that the water supply in that area may be endangered as a result of the plans outlined by the minister earlier in this House? ~fR. SP'V~TZER: The hon.minister. XR. ~tAYNA..liD : I have received complaints from one group, ~-": r.

Speaker, a group called Eco~r,ratch on the \Jest Coast. I have answered Eco ~r..Tatch questions and I have indicated to them that there is no possible possibility of any contamination of the water supply either in the Curling ~.;ater suo9ly or in the Corner Brook '•ater supply, that we are taking t!:J.e necessary precautions and we - the test spray blocks are far enough away from the water supply to insure that there is no possibility of any contamination by accident or otherwise. MR. SPL<\.KER: Ron. member for Eagle River followed by the hon. gentleman for Trinity-Bay de Verde. A supplementary - -"'lR.

SPEAKER: I did not hear the hon gentleman ~ay supplementary. If the other hon member wishes to yield? MR. STRACRJu'l: Yes,I will yield to a supplementa~r. MR. Rm.lE: A supplementary, ~[r. Speaker, to the ~inister of Forestry and Agriculture, two supplementaries really, I rN"ill state them the same time. A..J\1" HON ~M:BER: (Inaudible) Well okay. Is there any truth to the fact, it has been publically stated by some individuals,that the minister and

~ay 27,1977 Tape 3355 AH-2 MR. ROWE: the administration is thinking of reverting - ~- MAYNARD: I camiot hear the question. MR. ROWE: -to a massive spraying programme within the very near future without the experimental programme before hand, Is there any truth to that rumour? ~ guess it is about what it is at the nresent time • ~iR. SPEAKER: Han. minister. ~1/F.ITE: There are a lot of rumours on the go. ~'f.R • MA TITARD : Let me clarify this reverting to - let me clarify reverting to a ~assive spra ying programme in 1977. AN RON • ~~tBER: Yes .

XR. :iAYNA._RD: ~o, even if we intended to '::!;.ere: is no possibility of it ~eing done because a spraying programme has to be geared up at least six mont~s before in order to get the equipment, the planes, the chernicals and this sort of thing . For instance: even for the test spray blocks that we are doing now the orders had to be put in in December or othe~#ise there was no possibility of delivery. So the possibility of anything more than the 200,000 acres -out of nine million~I might point out- the total forested area in 1977 is just out of the question. A further supplementary. i:lR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROHE : I wonder if the minister could indicate, Sir, o;.Thether his department has investigated other methods of controlling this spruce budworiil. We are talking about,obviously~chemical spraying no~, Has the minister gathered together any research with respect to biological control and this type of thing.

In other words,has there been an atte~pt by the administration to collect all the research data possible to find out the various kinds of control, whether it is chemical, physical, biological, ·.;hat have you, from various other parts of the \vorld and see -;vhat the results on the enviornment would be if these other methods were used other than just chemical spraying?

May 27,1977 Tape 3355 AH-3 MR. SPE~~ER: The hon. minister. MR. MAYNA...'ill: T.Jell that is a··very important nart of this years programme, Mr. Speaker, I have indicated before I asked the president of MeTiorial University, Mr.

Horgan"Jto put together a team of peop~e, none of whom would be involved with government or the companies, that it would be a totally unbiased group to do a complete analysis of all of the research that has been done to date on the spruce budworm control, that is biological or chemical or Nhatever~and to present us with a report sometime around the latter part of September or early October indicating to us the various alternatives >:.re might have available to us in controlling. That is either by biological or chemical methods.

As well we have an ongoing forest management group in the Province made up of the Canadian Forestry Service, our own department and the t1-10 large paper companies that are investigating long-term management te~~niaues for the forestrv. This would include different species mix . For instance ,it is well known that certain species are not susceptible to budworm attack or at least not damaged by it, But that is a long-term thing; they are stepping up their investigations this year as to what can be done in

May 27' 1977 Tape No, 3356 MR. MAYNARD: actual management, fertilization, cutting techniques and this sort of thing to combat the budworm or any other insect farther down the road. MR. SP~~R: The hon. member for Eagle River. NM- 1 MR. ST~~CHb~: ~r.

Speaker, on the general subject of transportation in Labrador, seeing the minister got through so easy with his estimates, could the minister tell us whether he has any plans or what the plans are now if there is any money to be spent on. the Freedom Road~first of all; and secondl~ would he consider sending engineers in to cost out a road from Paradise River to Cartwright and Mauds Bay to Marys Harbour. ~. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Cmmnunications. ~. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, next weekend, in fact next Friday,I will be travelling to Labrador and first of all meeting with the council at North West River with regards to a problem there in connection with construction of a bridge across the river to North 1-7est river. On Monday, the following Monday, which is I think June 6th., I plan to leave Goose to travel hopefully by road all the way across Labrador, the road known as the Freedom Road, across to Esker and to take the railway as well from Esker into Wabush, Labrador City. I have invited the Chairman of the Transport Committee in Labrador, Mr.

Herb Brett, their former mayor of Happy Valley- Goose Bay, and of course the ~~ for the area, my friend from Nask.aupi (Nr, Goudie) will be travelling with me as well, accompanied by senior staff from the department. First of all we plan to scout the area on Sunday by helico?ter from Churchill Falls to Goose Bay, to determine if we can get over it by vehicle,and Monday morning we plan to leave

May 27' 1977 Tape No. 3356 MR. MORGAN: to drive all the way across the Labrador part of our Province and then we will be in a position, after assessing the situation, to determine approximate estimate of cost we will have to spend this Summer to keep the road open. And the cost will be a major factor in determining NM- 2 what we will be able to do this Summer.

But if at all possible we will be making attempts an~Nay to keep that road in a passable condition to enable the people to at least leave Wabush Mines and Labrador City to come to the Island part of the Province on their vacations, by means of travelling down that road to Goose Bay and take the William Carson ferry into the Island part of the Province. I am hoping that my suggestion I made last year will be followed, that the people would travel in convoy if at all possible,because there are no service stations, there are no conveniences at all on that road.

Three hundred and twenty­ odd miles of road, mainly through wilderness, in fact through wilderness,and I am hoping they will accept my suggestion that they travel in convoy rather than travel as individual passenger vehicles over that road. So next week I will be assessing the situation and with regards to the matter pertaining to the bon. member's own district, Eagle River, I will be in a position, approximately two w·eeks time to indicate to him then what the situation is there so the question is under advisement. MR. STRACR~~: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

ST~~CR~~: In the same general area, supplementary in transportation~ and the minister, could the minister tell us whether there is any indications for this $24 million that has come here for airport construction. T~ether Nain, and Makkovik and Marys Harbour and Cartwright will be committed, funds 1rill be COiillllitted to that project to get them started this year?

May 27, 1977 HR. SPEAKER: ~. MORGA..f'{: Tape No. 3356 NM- 3 The han. Minister of Transportation and Communic~tions. Mr. Speaker, irrespective of what funds come forward from the federal government, we intend to go ahead and complete if at all possible, if the funds we have approved in the Budget as of yesterday in the estimates to complete the airstrip at Cartwright. However, we will be commencing discussions in the Dmmediate future.

I am hoping next week to discuss with the federal ·minister the statement made recently with regards to $21 million for airport development in the Atlantic region, and I am hoping that part of that $21 million can be allocated for Labrador for development of airstrips and of course if so we will be pressing forward our priorities, irrespective of their master plan. And our priorities so far have been established as being Nain, and :fakkovik and ~·(arys !:larbour and of course Rigolet is now under construction and so is Cartwright. ~. SDiMONS: MR.. SPEAKER: d'Espoir. A supplementary.

A supplementary, the hon. member for Burgee - Bay :f:R. SL'1MONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister made reference to the bridge across :Torth \.,jest river. The agreement on that matter was signed

May 27, 1977 Tape no. 3357 Page l - ms Mr. Simmons. January or February,or about January~I believe. Is it true, or would the minister confirrn,that the bridge construction has been delayed at least a year because of the lack of design of the bridge o= the delay in getting the design completed? MR. SPEA..'<ER: The han. minister. MR. MORGAN: No, Mr.

Speaker, there is no delay in the actual design of the b~idge, but the~e is a delay at the present r.vith ~egards to finalizing the actual site location of tne bridge, and that is the main reason I am travelling to ~orth Tfiest Ri,;er myself next Friday evening to meet with the council of that community, accompanied by the~~~ from Naskaupi. Yne engineers from the department, in fact the senior staff, have already been in there, but to date the problem has nat ~een resolved The design for the bridge is now being ca=ried out. That ~.;rork is being done. There is no delay there.

And even if the location site was now finalized it still would not be in a position to call tenders because t~e design work has not been finalized or completed to date. But I am hoping that next Friday '"e can resolve the matter with regards to the location. I assured the residents of North West River that the location of the bridge would be built to their satisfaction if at all possible. And we have assured them that we will consult them on all ~atters with regard to const=uction of that bridge. ~. SIMMONS; MR. SPE.AKER: A supplementary.

A supplementary by the han. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir, followed by the han. gentleman from Lewisporte. ~. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the fact that the design is only now going for-vard, does this indicate that the government here, the provincial government, had no proposals, plans or designs for their bridge before the federal people put it in the DREE sub-agreement for Labrador? It strikes me that it is a bit late to be doing the

May 27, 1977 Tape no. 3357 Page 2 - ms Mr. Simmons. design now. Is there some technical reason why it is so far along in time well after the signing of the actual financial agreement? MR. SPEAL<ER: ~. MORG&.'i: The han. minister. Mr. Speaker, the procedure or the present situation with regards to the bridge in :-Torth \-iest River is basically the procedure follor.ved in all cases.

The engineering ,.;-ork r.vas carried out sufficient to determine a cost estimate to negotiate ~..;it~ t~e federal gover:lme!'lt, but the actual structurB.l design o£ t:J.at bridge. can only take place. af1:er the a.greemer:.t is signed and the , funds allocated. And as soon as the agre~ent vias signed a : consulting firm \-ias engaged by the department, and they commenced ~wrk ii!!!llediately after the agreement ~.;as signed on the actual structural design of that bridge to enable the calling of tenders.

But there •.vas engineering T,.;ork carried out prior to the negotiations and this has to be done to enable the federal gover~~ent to agree with us on building that bridge. MR. ~.JHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. :fR. SPEAIG:R.: The hen. member for Lewisnor.te for a supplementary. ~fR. wniTE: ~r. Speaker, my supplementary comes out of the minister's est~ates yesterday, but because of the amount of detail we had to go into in the minister's ~stimates yesterday r,;e did not get a lot of information on the point that I r,.;anted to ask him about ~elative to transportation in Lahrador.

I wonder if the minister could tell us in view of the fact that he announced yesterday that a tender had been awarded to Sealand Helicopters, a company o<Nned by Mr. Dobbin- they were the lowest tender and got the contract, $103,000 for a helicopter to operate in Labrador - could he give us a few more details on this? ~-iere those the only t•.vo companies asked to submit hids or was it a public tender placed in the newspapers and what will this particular machine be doing in Labrador? \.fuat ·N'ill be its role in Labrador?

~!ay 27, 1977 Tape no. 3357 Page 3 - ms ~ . SPEAKER: Toe hoo. minister. ~ . :10RGA...\f : ~ . Speaker, as i~ reply to a question yesterday during the estimates the answer is that tenders were called . We did aot ask for bids f~om a speci:ic company. In fact tenders were even advertised in the mainland ?apers , ~hich sometimes 1 am opposed to. I feel that all New~ouodland firms should be give n first preference in all cases .

But ~e did adver~ise in mainland ?apers as well as ~he local papers and so any company ~ho c~uld supply : hat kind of 2ac~i~e c~a c ~e bids was Saaland 3el~copters, a _ ocally.~ew:ounciland ~ased fi~. The helicopter tnl l )e used prU!arily, if not strictly, :or the use of the Depart~ent of Eorescry and Ag~icultu ~ e. A~d i~ will be cased in Goose 3ay-or Happy 7all ey - Goose Bay, Lab ~ador, anc will ~e used 1 like I say~al~os~ strictly for the De?art~ent of Forest=y and Agricult ure with ~egards to forestry, fire- fighting ~ forestry protection . ~d I a~ assumi3g tha~ oy ~o n. fr iend and colleague

May 27, 1977 Tape 3358 PK = 1 Mr. Morgan: can reconfirm this, but also in connection with the budworm spraying activity, he can verify that. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEA..TZER: MR. wlUTE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. w1UTE: MR. SP~l(ER: ~. i .. m:ITE: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary. I said,'' Further," if it"final','well that is fine. I realize the hon. gentleman said further. Okay. It does not preclude hon. members from coming back. Mr.

Speaker, I just want to ask the minister when this contract with Sea-Land 3elicopters comes into effect, and whether or not while the helicopter is stationed in Labrador whether it is a firm contract that it isonly to be used by the Department of Forestry and Agriculture. wnether or not since the helicopter is in Labrador anyway it will be available for other goverD~ent services such as, you know, activities by ;:~inisters and so on? :1R. S I:MMON S : MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAJ.\l': Fishing trips and so on. l.<e hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Nr.

Speaker, yesterday I outlined that we have seven helicopters under charter from Universal, and the functions or use of these helicopters - I mentioned, if I recall that one o£ these helicopters out of the seven was stationed in Goose Bay for the purpose or the use of ministers, all of the ministers, in fact, all government departnents in Labrador. Therefore this helicopter now will not be used for t~at purpose; we already have one there. M..'I\ • \,JR I TE : I will put it differently. MR. XORGP...:."' : So it will be used by the Department of =orestry and Agric~lture, yes. MR..

SPEA..l{ER: The hon.member for Fogo, followed by the han. gencleman from Terra ::-iova. C.\PT. \-TI~SOR: A question for the ~inister of Fisheries. Has the minister gotten any word back from the people he sent to the Mainland to ascertain the differences in prices of lobster paid by the ~1ainland firms in Nova Scotia, and that paid to fishermen

May 27, 1977 Tape 3358 PK - 2 Capt. Winsor: here in Newfoundland? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR.. t.J. C..A.RTER : Mr. Speaker, auditors on instructions from the Industry Adviso~; Board are now in the process of checking the records of the four Hainland fish compa~ies that are responsible for buying lobsters in :the Province to report back to me, a.'1.d that report has been promised for June 15. ~- WHITE: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. ~ember for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE:: A sunplementary to the ~inister of Fisheries.

Mr1 Speaker, I wonder if the minister could indicate to us, it is well along now in the lobster season, and we really have not had a report on the lobster fisher], and I wonder if he could tell us how the lobster industry is doing this year? ~. SPEAKER: TI•e han. Minister of Fisheries. HR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, all indications point to a reasonably ·:·good lobster fis~erJ. And I am rather pleased to learn the other evening that , I think, fishermen in my hon. friend's district are nmv organizing themselves into a co-operative efforc and are undertaking the marketing of their own lobster.

And they are nm.; obtaining prices far in excess of that paid by the four Atlantic Canadian companies that ~.;ere previously buying t~e lobsters. SOME EON. ~!EMBERS: ~. W. CARTER: Eear, hear! But to ans>ver your question> it appears to be a good year. I am not satisfied that the prices lJei:;g: !'laid are satisfactory. Ce::-tai::tly ~ve are going to do all we can to bring about cvhat we think are necessary changes in the system, especially in the marketing area of the lobster fishe~r. tnd again I am ?roud to knc~ that certain people are taking certa~L initiatives on their own as to that end. MR.

SPEA .. l(ER: The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, in vie~• of the fact that our unemployment rate - the question is for the Hinister of Hanpower and Industrial

May 27, 1977 Tape 3358 PK - 3 Mr. Lush: Relations - in view of the fact that our unemployment rate as of mid-May we had 35,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed)and I keep hearing statements by t~e bon. Minister of Industrial Develo~ment that we can look forward to a high unemplo:vment rate for the next little •.;hile.

I wonder if the minister has any idea by what amount the numbers of unemployed will be reduced as a result of government ?rogr~es this Summer? -~<d I realize that there are some factors that ~ake it a little difficult, but certainly the goverr:nent oust have some id.ea what numbers out of this 35,000 chey expect to employ this SI..!I:lll1.er? :!F.. SPEA.KER: !'ne han. ~!inis ter of Labour and ~a:c:por..;er. MR. ROUSSEAU: It is a very difficult question to ans-c.;er, :1r Spea.l(er, as I am sure the han. member knm.;s. First of all, you know, I do not acce?t the fig~re of 35,000.

I would like to know where the figures are,as I suggested once before in the Rouse here, that r..Je asked c.;-ho 'N"ere the people and where '"ere they? You ;..:.nor..;, when I had - '"·hat -;.ras it.,200-and-some-odd fish canners in my han. friend's districc in Gander (~r. n. Collins), at that t~~e-re~em~er the report •..re had a fe~.; years ago on the unemployed in ':::..e P=ovince and there r..;ere - :'-ffi.. R. COLL r::rs : ~iinety-eight fish canners cut of ,.mrk in Gander. :ffi.. ROUSS:C:AU: ~linety-eight fish canners out of '.;ork i!! Gander.

You kno~.;, I ~ -10uld like to knmv the oreakdmm of the figures, 211d I cannot give them. But I am ~ot saying that the rate of unenrploy-;nent is not high, I am just saying I would like to have an accura:e a c count of it . Right now, you kno1i7, for the various departments of government, and I am speaking as the "Minister of ~fanpower, o£ course, that

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 3359 NM- 1 MR. ROUSSEAU: the initial call of tenders by my colleague, the Hinister of Transportation and Commtmications of course will create some employment. The highways programme, now that the Budget is down}will hopefully create more employment. ~1y colleague, the han. Minister of ~tmicipal Affairs and Housing~of course,now that his programmes hopefully will be underway in the next few weeks, that will create some employment.

We have a number of things here in the capital budget in the De~artnent of Public ~-larks and Services r,rhich TN"hen that budget i.s out will have some •N"ork done. T'here are a number of other possibilities. ::Tow ,.,hen you say possibilities I would certainly hope there would be a reduction in the unemployment rate. Rowe•rer, to be honest and fair about it too in talking to the industry as I do in my role as ~-finister of Public Works, of course they are concerned.

They are concerned because o£ the dependence on government work and because of the lack of private i~vestment;of course they have to depend on government work. And they are not happy now with the volume of work in the Province, private and government ~•ork~ although they are a:.;are o£ the fact that there ,.,ill be some government in of course as each department 1 s estL~ates who would ~e involved in work activity is passed.

So you know obviously we have to look for some decrease in these number of $30 ,OCO plus or -c.;hateve:: the figure may be. .And hopefully, as I say, '"ith the passage of the estimates of several of the departments who were involved in this, the creation of jobs through gove~~ent expenditure that •N"e ,.;ill see some reduction and hopefully by May or June or July we will see a significant reduction in this Province.

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 3359 NM- 2 "MR.. SPEA...TZER: · A supplementa~'• the hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. w"HITE: Hr. Speaker, my supplementary is to the Xinister of Manpower and I wonder if the minister could tell us when he had his last meeting with the fe~eral ~inister of Y~npower, his counterpart in Ottawa,to discuss the serious unemployment problem in Newfoundland, 1vhen he had his last meeting? ~. SPL\KER: The hon. ~linister of Labour and ~~npower . ~.

ROUSSEAU: I was in touch with hi~, I have been talking to them and~as I mentioned be~ore,~e have an agenda for a o.eet:ing here and one of the items was that and '-ie <:.;auld like to have s0me i~put~for example~into their works programme of provi:Llcial iP...put. Unfortunately .~'[r, Cullen could not make it because of weather. I have written h~~ since and he has agreed to meet, I asked for a meeting, he has agreed to meet. The only problem is now that the Rouse of Asse~bly is o~en ana I have not had the opportunity.

But he has been most gracious and has agreed to meet and as soon as the House is closed 1 At the first possible opportunity after that I will be talking to ~r. Cullen on.not only the une~plo;nnent but also the questiun of prioritites in work projects in resource based areas and '"here th.ey go so that we would have some co-ordination between federal and provincial gove~ents with the people involved of course in the various areas in respect to that.

So hopefully I would say within a week or two after the House closes. 1ne han, membe~ for Belle~~e, fcllowed by the han. member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoiri and Eagle Rive~. ~r. Speaker, :ny question is for the ~1inister of Transportation and Communications. Yesterday here in this -House, and also through the ~dia the ~inister mentioned three what we consider bad areas of the Trans-Canada to be upgraded: and he mentioned the area around Glovertown there, the St. Georges area on the West Coast, and also the Ke~~ount Road area~and I think we all agree that these are bad areas.

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 3359 ~{- 3 MR. CALLAN: But I am wondering~is not the area the general in the Rantem area, that is the general area be~ween say Chance Cove and Arnold's Cove, that general area, is not that considered to be one of the bad areas .. and if it is ~~11 anything be done with that area this year, is it on the· priority list? And perhaps ,.;ould the minister table any studies that have been done regarding the bad areas of the T~ans-Canada or are they decided arbitrarily? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. ~linister of Transportation and Communi~ations. ~-fr.

Speake::, the upconing ::neeti:a.gs in fact which •.Jill be commencing on Wednesday i:1 Halifx, first of all ~.;ith t~e ministers in the region and then hope=ully from there on we plan to move to Ottat.;a for further :neetings •..;ith che federal minister and his officials. Of course )·.ve have co have c.;ith us at these meetings the outline of '""hat we determine as priorities on the Trans-Canada Highway in Xewfoundl211d and yesterday I mentioned a couple or three places on the :'rans--Canada Highway which were bad and needed improvements.

The Rantem area that I think the ~on. gentle~an is referring to, is also one of these priorities so what I intend to do as soon as ~he agreement is finalized and I will be tabling it in the ~ouse of Assemblv. if the House is in session and hopefully it will be at that time, hopefully we will get an agreement signed as soon as possible, tabling in the House the work we plan to c~~.ence this year and outlining also our ?roiorities on t~e TCR for the remaining t~.?o years of the three year agreement.

May 27, 1977 Tape no. 3360 Page 1 - ms MR. CALI.A..~: A supplementary, v~ Speaker. -.:.• .. MR. SPEAKER: A supple!:!.entary. 1:-!R. CALL..\N: Mr. Speaker, I knm·7 there is some concern on oehal£ of se~rice station operators and so on who are located along the Tra~s-Canada Highway. ic1ey are afr~id of a divided highway that will put them out of business and so on. Would the minister take a minute to explain? Are there ?lans for a divid2d highway across this Province?

Or as \·Te see it :1or.~, ~s it j u.s t upgrad:.ng t~e present t~vo lc=.nes and. e:>Qand it, say, to four r,;ithout having a divided highway as we have on the outskirts of St. John's? :yrn_, SPEA..TZZR: Y.1e han. minister. MR. ~ORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish I could say that ,.;e could find enough illOney from Ot;:a:..1a or from some source to build a second highT,.;c.y ac:-:-oss the Province. But r.-;hat '"e are talking a~ou:::: :1ow in our summation "-?Plicati:Jn ::1ade is along the lines of widening out and making four lanes in some sections of the TCE.

And the rest of the bad sections, like the Rantem area.as ~e~tioned, wideni~g out and paving of shoulders and, of course, ln some s~ctions ~earing up and reconstructing these sections. ~ do not t~i~k the concerns QL the sc~;ice stations as mentioned are justified. T.'1e engineering division, of course, ~~11 ~e only too pleased to discuss with any of the service stati:Jn ope.:-2.tors 8T comme::-c:.al operatc:-s on the highr.a1av the plans (~e h ave f:o·r the ,.,,...T"T .!.l....n and can ou::line to the::n i£ will be a~fec~ed or not. MR. SPE.~~~: Tne han. 2ember for Burgee - 3ay d'~spoir. MR. Sn1MONS: ~1r.

Speaker, a question for the :ti.niste:: of ~ines and Energy 1 if I can get his attention. Yes. I want to refer nim ::o the deposit just ~as: of Grey River on the Southwest Coast, the deposit. I believe the rights for it are held by either ASA-~CO directly or by arrangement with Price. He ~ight be able to indicate

May 27, 1977 Tape no. 3360 Page 2 - ms Mr. 3immons . just what is the case? I believe it is with Price. A senior official of Price recently indicated that they had been looking at this with a view to determining whether it was a commercially mineable deposit. I wonder would the minister indicate whether his department has had any particular ~r.put or any discussions on this particular issue and generally bring us un to date on the subject? ~. SPEAKE"?,: T:J.e ' no c. ~inister oE ~lines and Energy. ::..rr.

Speaker, there are a number .... about two or t~rce 2on:~s : asked the geologists, the see1ior staff in the. geology sec~ion of the ~!ineral Resour.:e Di~;i.s:!..a~ of the Department of Mines and Energy to assess a~' the kno·~ ore bodies :haL have been discoverd recently in the last three or four :.,ears to 3ee ~vhether in :act -:-.-~e could pu.rsue a ~Ot"C 2.Cti""Je policy t8 bringi~g same o£ ~hose ore ~vdies on streEm in a commericial \-lay through CO'!!!p2.Uies c,vho u.m.; have the !llineral rights or the concessions or ;.;hatever~to sit down and talk to them.

And one of them, of cot:rse, :.;as t~e tUJ.J.gs t'1n deposit, the barite one that are c.m7 involved in in Buchans to ':::y to extend ~he life of the :nine ,,.-hich (,;auld only a:11ou.L:J.t ::o a sua.:..l =~'" jobs iu. relation to how many are there now, but at least there wou:d be some to do some :vo:rk., additional r11or~< on lLuestone cie?osits on c.::1e ~~est Coast and sene additional r.7ork ·:Jn silica de?osits iu. the LaScie area and so en, and tungsr::on~<~as anongst the!!l.

Up until this point in time the companies and the people in t~e Depart:rrent of Yfines and Energy say that at r::he present ~o!!ler..t it is not 'liable to ;mt a :nine in production based on the cost of extracting the ore, the ~rkets, the whole bit and plece. Em.,rever, '.ve are review"ing it all righc this present last ie,,., ~veeks to get a firsthand knowledge on all chese kinds of de?osits and the tungsten one included. I am aware that Price

May 27 , 1977 Tape no. 3360 ?age 3 - ms ~r . Peck.:o:-1 . ar:d ASA~CO :-.:::;e :,een i:wolv ed :.n t he : ~gs t o:! de?os:::. c a..;d ?rice is ia: erested agai~ in i t. ~e one 3~ eat asset ~~ac ?r :!.ce o:-i~zs to c~e ::d.neral indu s c:ry in Xe~oundl.a:1d :..s n et~-ness anc! its desire co ge: 0:1. r;:!.: :t setti:'lg a 7:li~e in production ;,;hilst you get t he ~o r anda oc:- :he ot:-te!' ~ig companies who ar e still in cer estec! . .; ""­__ .;:, ~o u sci ll did ~oc answer :he question . ~8. . P~CEO?_:): QR.DE?..S 0 ? ~·-tr: .:. ~ovci :.c :a . ~1?- . s ::~o~s : i~co Co~=~~e of ~·!= . Soeaker lef: CO~~L!TTE:: OF SC?? !.:? :

May 27 t 1977 Tape No, 3361 NM- 1 MR. CF..ATR~¥~!\}1: O~der, please! Heading 1801. The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Just a few mL<utes, ~r. Chairman. Last night I indicated that I would table these policies of the ~ewfoundland Info~ation I have also directed my Assistant Deput:r ~.inister of Administration to review these and a revie~J is now in process and hopefully we ~.;ill have t~em very soon. I have to apologize to ny colleague, the member for ~ ·iask.aupi (:fr t Goudie)..

This :!.~formation ~2.s t:o Je ccnrpiled because of the sale o~ so~e of t~e ?ro?erties and ! will be in a position to table it hopefully some time next week. I might mention by the way, ~r. Chai~2n, just before I sit dotm, last night -::.;e did not ~alk too ;nuc::,. about the P~.1blic Service Commission and I think that T"'hen somebody does something of an exemplary nature I think they should be commended on it. :::Zecently the Civil Service Commission weB.t dmm to help ~.;ith career days in various schools in the area~.and on~e of th.e schools they visited rt~as ti"'le.

School for the Deaf and in talking •,Jith the ?eople dor..rn the:-e c~ay had the feeling that these people c..;rere of the opinion, "'Hell you ~no;.:, career days-so ~,..,.hat? ~Thac are we going to do with it?" A . .~.<d the Public Service •:ow:mission on its ow-n initiated 3. co-c~ progra.r.:rrne -;.;ith gover.,...""lent ~epartme:tts, the De;Jar t:J.ec.t of Public ~arks, the Department of ?ina~ce, a IJ.lli~ber of ot~er gover:J..men~ depart!nents hav·: :c.::Cen in fifteen students £ror1 the School £or the Deaf on a co-operative programme for a few weeks anc the Public Ser~ice Commission will endeavour to place these ~eople ?e~anently and I think they should Qe commended for their or.;n initiative.

I think it is an ex~nlary thing and it is one of the little hlli~an interest stories that sometimes does not reach the levels of the department, but certainly it is worthy of comment and I would like to compliment the Public Service Commission on this act.

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 3361 NM- 2 MR. ROUSSE..:\.U: I think, Chairman, that I answered all the questions last night that I had, maybe not sufficiently and satisfacto~ily but I do not have any questions on my book now and I think we have about an hour left and I will try and answe~ any questions that the han. members ' . or:_ng from here on in. ~-~. SI~ONS: :fr.

Chairman. han. ~ember for Burgeo - Bay -1 I~ • u. .r..spolr. !ffi.. sr:r1mrs: ~1r. c:1.airm.an, _:irs t of all ~ r- being Friday 2or::ing 7 all of t!S ~.;aati.:tg to get off to a good sta-:-t for :he -::~ee~e:2d., we should seriously compliment t:l.e :ninister on his fairly direct ans,.j'ers, or his di-:ect answers to questions, He is one of the oini.st8rs that ~~e have no difficulty r.-.;ha~soe~7er getting infor.nat.:.on £"-:-oo, one of sever-al over ~:le!'e. ..-\..J.d tb.er2 are seve-:al ot~ers ove::- there '-lho could r.,;ell take a pege out of the :ninister's book, and be as forthright in answering q_uestions. ~~r.

Chair7Jan. I would like this 30 rn.:i.ng if '"'e had the time, I understand we .bave. '"hat - about an hour, :1r. Cha:i::l!l.an? _\n hour anci. t,..,.;o or :hree :n.inutes. Yes .. An hour and - 'lR. CR.:\I?~1...~1: A couple of minutes. '1R. S1M:10NS : Just over an hour on this ?articular Qead, on this parti~ular depar~ent. So I =ealize other of ~y colleagues -..rao:J.t to sp8ak anG. I -.:.rill therefore :nake ~y r-e!narks 1 • - very or::.e.c . One could spend a long tL~e today talking about Ne~-rfoundland In£or:nation Services and I hope some of my colleagues will pick up the theme.

Because that particular body, that particular :nonstrosity must be no to rious 1 must have a certain historical irfamy attached to it already for its ability to use the taxpayers' money, one quarter of one million dollars, $212,000 actually~on.sending out what in

~y 27 , 1977 Tape No . 2361 ~ - 3 ~2 . Sr-c10NS: ~ssenc~, in f ace , ~n ~~ality , in ~lunt r~ali : y is the political MUtteri~gs of a ?Oli : ical par=y and Re t ~e taxpayers a=e ?ay~~g for it and i: is suppose~ :o ~c called ~ewfoundland !~:o~acion Ser7ices . I ~ave been s:ruggl~ng all nighc to gee a more apt ce~ c~at would :ic chose thr ee initials, )iiS , I can::~o c find it . But someone can ~eli' me I am sur~ becaus~ i: is shocking , disgrace:ul , dispicable thac sue~ a nefa r~ous sche~e should ~ ~ Ei~a~ce d by ~= or saving some ti~e :o a30t~~= su~jec t ~~d chat oE and oaiotenance ~ork Eo~ all departnea:s of soverr~ent .

May 77 1977 Tape 3362 PK - 1 Mr. Sil!lT.lons: And becaus.= of its rather pivitol position,it is in a posi::::.on to be ~h-~ ~l~i~h .. _f1_•nd- n_~?.pa_~~--·-·ent-_ of ~avo ~ ·~ . - ~ - ow -~ .. - - - .:; -- r:u-n.e 2 l. , J.. ~_ r.s in a positL:·n to be the s~usn ~~nd, the political pay-off sl~sh fund depart~en~ of gover:'..ment. ._!(.·o~· u~,a-~h.e-_· ,·~ ~eco--s ~·.,2.~ o- a~ ~ , ' .• ... -- -~ "" •uc: ~-- • ~ n. '- or :::ouse G.2?enc.s on the comoe~ence &<d the ja.sic integrity of the officia.ls involved a gentlesa"2 T 1 nr'! ry - ........... _:,! ccmpetc!!c:2.

T~e Ulinis~e'!:" cance:r7le.d, of ~atlrse, ~as onl? Oee!l. a total on repairs anG. m.a~nt2ncnce) re:ttal.s, heat a~d. light, caj)ital, ;;:.=uovat:l.ons, pr:i.niting, aircra£::, and so on t':lose items that are - t':lose itel:!ls of service that are perfor:ned 'jy tC.e Jepartrrent of ?ubiic ;-iorks on oehal£ 0[ ot:"ler depa:-S!lent.3 of gove:-::r::ent, thesa tot~l ~39 million, 339 ~illion. Now, ,.. _ _ ......... Cna.:.::-:::!an, c:!illion. ~ow let us look ac what ~~ppened duri~g the year 1975-1976 i~ ras~ect of ~his par:icu~ar i~eo, t~e App=ndix IV detci~s.

The Auditor General ~=por~s t~at appropriat~o~s ror cer~aic 3eneral serv-:.ce c~arges.,~he. one to ~~-hich I iave just :-~£2r-:-~G :o :.:1.

Apper .. 2.ix by the !.-:gislatur~ as ~ ~e are d.oi~g he:-e today',voced Jy ~:"1e L2gisla:L!re on the Oasis of the estimates of the Dep2.rtment of ?:1'wlic. :.,l'o:-k.s a2d Ser-vices, and of course A;Jpendix :v gives detail.:; of t:1at _ Then he goes on to say, 11 Tb.e total &."':lour:..t vo :ed for general se~~ice charges incl~des provision for expenditures ~hich though 8ade initially c~rough ~his department will be transferred as heads of ex!>e-r..diture to other depart2ents.'' .\nd he goes ·on to say,"In my opinion the cmounts allocated to each depart~ent 3et the limit of expenditures ~ith the Departsent o£ Public Works and Serlices ma.y

May 27, 1977 Tape 3362 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: properly incur for subsequent tra"ZJ.srer to these depa:rt:nen ts." And then he says, ~=. Chairman, here is the ?Unch line, then he says,''However my audit disclose that :::,e Department of Public T.Jo:rks and Services considers that transfe:::-s ';)etween allocations as shown i:J. A.-p_pendix IV or even ne'.; allocat ioo.s can ' f-" • d II ,.l ' • ' ' -ae a ~ec~e - an~ nere ls t~e ~portant part or his sentence - ''Can 'oe affected at t:.te discretion of c"!.l.e de;Jarm.ent." :row r,.rhat that sa:..rs i.n so 2.2.:1y i.·TO rds, ~{::-.

C~air::12n, is this, t:~a~ tha: $39 aillion,~·h.ic:"l I ~ust mac~e re:cre:1c2 to, r,.J~i2.·2 i: neatly 2.2.id out so much ~or heal~h, so much ~or ~unici?al a~~ai:::-s etc. etc. around at the discretion of the depar~ent concerned. In other -;.;ords, the ministc-::- ?Oints out that some of t~ese I i::C.eed a lc..-:-ge portion of t':;.ese a:re ·~ a:t~ly f i:Ke.C. costs .-r.., ..... t- - l~d. ._ \..,"ould re.::.ate to t:;.e serJ"ic.e, tl1e ong0i:1g e.:-{penC.it.u:-es j but i~ certainly ~-:-auld :J.ot ~e in the case of cons':ruction and ::-eno'ration, fo= ex~ple.

And on that subject alone, on ~hat item alone t~ere is Sl4 million thi3 year. And that is an item that has been moved around~as :ie So let !lS, you :C:10~v, ~o concede to the ::-.inis c2:-' s poiut, let us t:te $39 ~ill ion a c:ome.::t, us talk aOou: the $14 :nillion. T.._,__er2 .:.s $14 :uillion t~e.re 1/C; ::2d for const::-~.Jc.t~on and al::,:?.r2.tionJ and there is no ~a=d ~'l.d. f~r:n guide.:'.ine, ~-t::. Cv:.irc:J.c.n, that that has to ':Je S?ent in acco:rcance with the way that we are voting; that is to say ,the depar':ze~~ says there is ~o ~ard and :i~ g~ideline.

I say c~ere ~s a verJ ~=r~ I say that as .soon as the C.epart:::er-.::: :a.:<.e.s the li~erty of li::cing an 31!2ount say out of :Iealth, ~vhic.h is voted for 5.ealth~and ?Uts it it as a c.onst~ction it.ew. i:1 c.not~er ;::epar·t-:J.ent ~ the Depart::1ent of Public V.iorks is ~.t:ereby go.:.ilg c.gaina t, they are violating, thereby acting in contravention or contradiction of the instruction o£ the ctouse, of the Cownittee of Supply right here. P...nd that has gone on w·holesale in past year.s; ~1r. Chairman.

~fay ,.,.., "''' 1977 slush :::c.:-tc.. Tape 3362 ?K - 3 You ha\le. a $14 2illio:1 or if you 12-~ze al tog~ ~he:- a S39 million, but certainly _a~ l2ast in the case of the cons ~rue ti.:JL!.

Hay 27,1977 Ta-pe 3363 A..B:-1 HR • S L.·il·!ON : item a $14 million slush fund~ Now hm·l do I mean that? 1:..;ell~ for example ~this year under g::-ar:.t;s to hospitals there is an amount of $4,952,000 , that is for the Health Sciences Cor.t?lex- a good part of it is, S4,?52,000. Suppose for some reason - and this is per~ap.s c:ot a good e:-::ample but it will serve the point- supp,Jse for soi:!!e reason that 2oney could not be incurred in the present year because of a delay in the c.ons truction com?le tion schedule. ;,n1at has been happenir:g tlce past is sa::.d example.

So as a result of the practice that the depart3ent has adooted in the ?ast three or four years at least- of using discretioQ in ~oving that item, ni!lions o~ Goll2~s oE ~~ :~om ov.e de:Jart:nent to anot~e:-, t~e resu2.~ is r:~.2.t i£, for c:Karr.:olc, you have a delay in t':l.e ?eal-::h Sciences Corrmlex or more O'Te:-tly more directly if gove_rnnent decided to delay the Fealth Scier_ces Com-ple:<- and again this~I say to the minister~is just an exam:ple because it is a large of money, ! do t1C t -.; a:n. ~ to cone ~a~k and assu~a it: :...s :;.at going to be dei~y2d a~d :~at kind of thing, that is ~ot t~e essence of ~hat Lam saying he~~- and sun-oose for a ooli tical ceesor:. t.j_e zovercui:en.t sai~ "~.Jell :.cok, Eealt~ Scien.ces Cor:rplex lS not a high priority, let us let us slo\·.t it dorm for a vea!" or 30 and ;;1;e ::an ~~akc t~e SL. ,9'JO ,:J!J'J The pass ih ili ty is there., ~ro. 1, "r.

Chai rnan, and ~!o. 2, t"cle ?Ossibilitv has ~een exercised, i~ ~as heen exerci3ed, The Auditor General himself has said so in ~is re-oort oE last veer and he.re ~'e. hc.ve, ~r. Chairma"2, th:.s y2ar .Sl4 8ill.:.on at: leas:, per:Caps as :nuc2 as S39 rnillion total_,r,Jb.ic;, i:t affect is a

~fay 27,1977 Tape 3363 AH-2 MR.

SH1MONS: discretionary slush fund that can;be illoved around to suit the political reality of the moment. ~~ow, the minister of course is going to shake his ~ead and say it does not happen., \.Jell I remind the minister,and I ~..ranted to get into this yesterday but I never got a chance ~nder transportation, A~ HON. ~ER: (Inaudible) ~- SP-fHONS: ~a, I remind the minister that 'tve have heard for years from this government about the five year road ~lan, the transportation plan. 'r7ell,there was a olan I am told, it '·ras actually in existence on ?aper and ?eonle ha•Je seen it, a.ll right, and one of the things t~ey were going to do on t;,_at particular road plan was pave twelve miles of road d~Nn in the ~oddickton area. \Jell it has not been paved ,althou>;h it is in the government's five year plan, it has not been paved and I suggest the reason that it has not been paved is beca·<..!se t!-lere ·,;as neither by-election in Roddickton last year, ~~d the paving that t-ras supposed to :,e in Roddickton ~•ound up in Glovers Harbour because we •.,rere tripp~_ng over oaving machines dow-n in Glovers Harbour on election day last year, June JOth,and I SU??Ose r,ve ,.;ill be doing the same tl-:irrg uu in St.

John's :.iest if tl:ley• can E.ind an~7'thing that does ~.ot wove up there :he\"' rNill oave it - A:.~ RON. ~'ffiER: And in Ferryland. And in Fer ryland. 'dell, the? have star ted t~e stadium un in Fer~1land fa!: the se"lent:-t ~i::-te, is it - Seventh ti:ce. :~. SL~ONS: 'Ehe stadium tv"ith the !:lOSt staF.ts ::..rr ::e~•foundland~ six starts and five stops so far, or sb: starts and six stops as the case may be,and now we are goiqg in for start nu~ber seven. ~~ell I am telling :7cu this, :{r. Chairman, ~·rhile I am on that su~ject :~is gove~-~ent is in for a start this time, a re~l start like it never had before.

Another subje~t - and I am afraid I am going to g'3t ruled out: of order any minute so I had better get bac~ on this particular subject here.

~1ay 27,1977 Tape 3363 AR-3 MR. CF~~IID-L<\.!.'l' : 18 - MR. SIMMONS: Sorry~ ~-fR. CHAIR.~AN: 1801 SOME HON. ~-IE}fBE?-.S: Hear, hear! ¥R. Sr1}f0NS: ~r. Chairman, is in a good mood this morning, that is always nice to see.

Look,I got off my chest basically what I wanted to say this morning, this discretionary power. ' or what the department thinks the discretionary authority js in the matter of moving around a~pendix IV items, It is somethi~g that has gat to be copper-fastened~ I do not think it should be there, If the government has some reason to reallocate a major exPenditure it either should be done by special warrant, by other procedu~es: which are provided for in the Einancial Administration Act,or should be done through sunplementary supp~y here in the Rouse.

It should not be ~one by some offical in the Department of Public ~Jorks saying~ "~·Te do not need it '.!P at the university;let us give it to highways to spend on bridges'.' It should not be done in that particular ~;ray._ ~·low, ~r. Chairman, this may well be the last o~portuni ty I will have in committee on this subject to speak, so just let me say how ~leased I am that the department has appointed a ne\.; Deputy ~inister, ~r.

Tom \'Thelan, The initial indications is that he has gotten a handle on the department and i£ I am any judge of character and ~ersonality at all it seems like he is the kind of guy you ;-;ere looking for a.rtd he has a good gras'? of iHhat is going on and I must say I am extre!i!ely impressed ":.Jit~ his concern with the denartment and his '·

May 27, 1977 Tape no. 3364 Page 1 - ms Mr. Simmons . anxiety to get on with the job. It was that that the department needed· an outside person who had a yen for administration. The department is suffering from the same kind of proble~ that everybody suffers with - MR. CHAIRMAN: Would . the han. member yield for a moment, please? MR. SIMMONS: Sure, sure. MR. CHAIR.'1Al~: I would like to ~.;elcome to the public galleries on behalf of all the members, nineteen students from Cape John Collegiate, LaScie, Grade X, nineteen students, accompanied by their teachers, Mr. John ~~cMullen and Xr. Rod Tho~s. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRNAi.~: Also in Mr. Speaker's gallery, there is a Mrs. Brigadier General Rhea, Director of Reserves and Cadets, National Defence Headquarters, Ottawa. The Brigadier General is in Ne~.;foundland to inspect the CLB Army Cadets. We welcome you to the galleries. SOME nON. ~·IEHBERS : 'MR. SIMMONS: Hear, hear! Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I certainly join you in welcoming those people, particularly the group from the school at LaScie which used to be in my educational jurisdiction during my earlier days as a school superintendent.

It is very good to see them all and say hello to them on behalf of their member, :rr .Rideout, the member for Baie Verte - 'tfuite Bay who is on his way '::Jack into :Oaie Verte to a speaking engagement this afternoon and so could not be here at this time. Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to say in concluding that it seems to me that the Department of Public \.Jerks~ with its emphasis on technical ser~ices and engineering capability suffers in the same 1vay that any organization does, , .. :here there is a preponderance of engineers. And I have nothi~g at all against engineers

May 27, 1977 Mr. Simmons. Tape no. 3364 Page 2 - ms but I remember my days at university where every faculty save one had a very smooth administrative organization. The engineer faculty, one,never had it and,two 7prided itself in not having it. AN RON. MEMBER: Just one? MR. STI1MONS: Well, the group. They only did not have a smoothly _ !Un._E_rganization, but it prided itself in not having it. It is the nature of the beast,as they say. And there is room in Public Works for a lot of engineers.

But the nature of the Department of Public Works is such, where they have to spend public money and report on the spending of public money, that it is not enough to know that the job is well done, you better have an administrator around who can tell you it is well done, and who can see that it is - can demonstrate, can document that it is well done.

And one of the problems we have been finding on the Public Accounts Committee, one of the problems that we have been finding is that too much was done in a very offhand way, not necessarily for any reason of wrongdoing, but we had, one example, for instance, where an amount of S33,000 was approved in a telephone call, and we have documented that this was the way it was done. It was approved strictly on the basis of a telephone call.

We can tell you the two individuals involved, one in the department, and one on the company end, and it was approved just over the telephone, and the fellm.;r on the department end just scribbled down the figure and ive have his telephone scribble to that effect,as a matter of fact. Now in that particular instance, I do not believe there is any wrongdoing involved, but I believe it was the case of an engineer who has no time for this routine administration at all in case of him trying to get on with the job. And I say to the minister, he has done a very good thing when he has got at once an engineer in Mr.

Whelan and at the same time a person who has

/ t'Ma.y 27' 1977 Tape no. 3364 Page 3 - ms Mr. Simmons. quite a good reputation as an administrator, a person who sees the need to not only do the job but to see that it is documented properly, because he is answerable obviously to this House and to the minister in particular. Mr.

Chairman, I hope the minster will respond to some of the things we have said particularly on the NIS, I do not think he has really - I was going to say he has not come clean, but that would be unfair; I do not mean he has not come clean - he has not really admitted to himself, let alone to the House, he has not at all admitted the unwielalyness of· the animal he is dealing with inNIS.

It is a ~angerous thing and it is not only going to be something that we are going to stand here and attack, but he is going to live to see the day when he is going to rue sitting on this one if that is what he is doing, because ~IS is going to embarrass him beyond degree. He has got a reputation for being a competent minister who comes clean, but if he tries on this one, on this nefarious, this des~icable NIS to do anything but call it the animal of his and do something to clean it up, then he is going to live to regret that day . It is a shocking piece of business, Mr. Chairman.

It is a quarter of a million of dollars of my money and your money, and it is being spent 'in the most blatantly political way that I could ever dream of or anybody could dream of, and it should sto?. And I would hope that the - you know, if the minister is really in character today he will stand in the next few minutes, and he ,.;ill tell us that he has either fired ~'ir. Butler this morning or he is ~vaiting for the Committee to end so he can fire him at twelve o'clock, because that would be the first step. I have nothing against Mr. Butler personally. I am disappointed

May 27, 1977, Tape 3365, Page 1 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: that he prostituted his journalistic profession during the 1972 election so he could suck himself into the present position. God knows how he did that. His counts up in St. Barbe, Mr. Chairman, were - the actual count was 400 and he managed to g~t 800 hundred in his reports, although he was writing _at tha~ time for The Evening Telegram, 800 in the meeting where the Premier was the - that kind of nonsense.

He actually prostituted in the worst, cheapest possible fashion his journalism for the sake of getting a job, and that I find, in itself, very disappointing of any individual. But if the minister is in character this morning he will tell us that Mr. Butler has been fired and secondly that there is going to be an ongoing, thorough going investigation of NIS. It needs to be cleaned up. It is my money, it is the minister's money and it cannot continue to be spent in this disgraceful political way. MR. CF.AIRMAN : Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: The han. the member for Trinity - Mr.

Chairman, I would like to return ~o the subject of NIS, Newfoundland Information Services, which probably could be better named Service Information Newfoundland and then you can call if for short, 'sin'. Because,in fact, that institution is a political sin in this administration. The reason I say that, Sir, is because the administration offices when they were in opposition attacked vigourously the concept of the Newfoundland Bulletin, which only cost in 1971, I believe, something in the order of $100,000.

Now we have a monster that has been described by my colleagues called Newfoundland Information Services that is costing in excess of double the amount of the Newfoundland Bulletin, and it is being abused and it

May 27, 1977, Tape 3365, Page 2 -- apb -- ~· ROWE: i~ being misused. I think the -whole concept of the Newfoundland Information Services should be destroyed outright. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to use a specific example to demonstrate the abuse or the way that Newfoundland Infor.maiton Services can be . - Unfo~tunately I am going to have to relate to misused. a release put out through Newfoundland Services by the Minister of Fisheries. Now I would like for the Minister of Fisheries to listen to this for one clear reason, because it involves a subject that we are both working on.

We . have had some controversy about it over the last year and-a-half - this is the Old Perlican . fish plant - and it is not the subject of the O.ld Perlican fish plant that I wish to relate to, but unfortunately this is the subject,in particular, Newfoundland Information Services press release relates to.

It has nothing to do, Sir, whatsoever with Old Perlican fish plant, it has nothing to do wi~~ the minister, bec~use, in fact, if I were the Minister of Fisheries at that time, when we were getting into some pretty heated arguments over the airwaves, if I had had Newfoundland Information Services at my disposal I would probably have made exactly the same release . So it is not the minister that I am say is at fault, it is the institution of Newfoundland Information Services. But I want to make that clear right at the beginning.

I am not criticizing the minister, nor stand for or against or what have you, I am not criticizing his release or anything relative to the Old Perlican fish plant. ~ihat I am trying to point out is the way that Newfoundland Information Services can be used and is being used. It should not be used in that way by any member of the House of Assembly

May 27, 1977, Tape 3365, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROWE: be he· or she a minister of a backbencher. I would say that. if I had Newfoundland Information Services at my disposal I WQ._~l4 probably would have put exactly the same release. I will admit that. Obviously I am not going to read through the whole four page release, Mr ~ Chainuan, ----. but I will read a few sentences or phrases that should show how this Newfoundland Information Services is being abused. It is probably not being abused, it is abusing the ministers

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 3366 MR. ROWE: and the government at the cost of the taxpayers, $212,000, almost a quarter of a million dollars. NM- 1 Now, Sir, this release was put out on April 20th., 1976, the very same day that I put out a press release relating to the Old Perlican Fish Plant in which I had to ring up, dial up all the stations and get typed up a press release and mail out to the various newspapers. The minister,obviously all he had to do was make the one release, send it down to Information Services, and this release was carried at the same time as my release was carried.

You know,if it was reversed I would be lucky_ to be able to reply in two or three d~ys. But, Sir, the minister, as a result of my release, was both shocked and angered by broadcast reports that the Government of Newfoundland was being blamed for~tbe refusal of the Federal Department of Regional Expansion ·to provide assistance in rebuilding the Old Perlican Fish Plant. I am not going to say whether . that is incorrect, accurate or not. But that is just a statement. "One of the charges brought against . the provincial government on Monday was that we had somehow caused the federal refusal of funds.

Not only was this a lie but it is proved to be in a letter which~~. R.H. McGee, DREE's Director General of Newfoundland informed me of his department's decision:' So the minister is able to accuse an hon. member of the House in another press release of telling a lie through Newfoundland Information Services and I say that they should not be allowed to go through Newfoundland Information Services. The minister can say it publicly if he wishes, on his own initiative. He could say it in the House of Assembly, but using a government agency to put out this sort of a thing, and I do

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 3366 MR. ROWE: not f~ult the minister, I fault the agency for allowing this type of thing to go through when in fact we have said much less in strength and the releases - before we decided not to use Information Services - the releases were being sent back to us. NM- 2 Another example, 11 I can state without any shame or regret that if I am criticized it will be on the side of trying to help Newfoundlanders and not being a cold blooded impersonal businessman such as Ottawa has turned out to be. 11 AN RON • MEMBER: MR • . ROWE: Mr. Chairman, it is exceilent stuff. I would do it myself, Mr.

Chairman. But allowing Newfoundland Information Services at the cost of $212,000 a year of the taxpayers money to put out this,which is in essence a political argument between two hon. members,and I am not talking about the rightness or wrongness of the minister or my release, I am talking about the fact that Newfoundland Information Services should not be allowed to do this sort of thing at the cost of the taxpayers. MR. W. CARTER: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. A point of order.

It is a matter of clarif~cation pointed out that that release was not, I repeat, not written by Information Services. AN RON. MEMBER: Oh yes. MR. W. CARTER: It might have been sent out by them to the news media,but I can take some credit for having written that release and I hate to see my handiwork being taken away from me and giving credit to somebody else. MR. ROWE: No. It is not a point of order but it is a point of clarification of course. It is NIS - one, - it is quite obvious, it is axiomatic 1you know,that the words, the words of the Minister of Fisheries, I am not suggesting that NIS wrote the

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 3366 NM- 3 MR. ROWE: press release, what I am saying is that these words went through NIS and they are very partisan, political statements if you do not mind my saying, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! I wish to thank the bon. member for helping me make that ruling. The bon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Oh I am sorry. I forgot about the point of order. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Another one, Mr. Chairman,"I do not profess to understand the motives of those who would tear down- the II · Province - MR. W.

CARTER: ---- ·-I am not making any , partisan - MR. ROWE: No, but it just happened to be coincident, that release followed my release.

Now who else were you referring to? ''I do~. profess t9- understand the motives of those II who would tear down the Province an obvious reference to the member for Trinity- Bay de Verde:;."or their own constituents in a wild scramble to tear down the government. 1' Well the last thing I am interested in doing, Sir, in trying to get a fish plant up in Old Perlican is tearing down the government, although that might help. 11While I do not feel that the government will be harmed by such obviously partisan eriticism, I do call on all concerned to make positive efforts to settle the matter so that life can be returned to normal as soon as possible in Old Perlican:• Now I will repeat, Mr.

Chairman, that I am not making any accusation or throwing any accusations towards the minister. I will restate that if I was the minister and Newfoundland Information Services were at my disposal I would probably make

.. May 27, 1977 Tape 3367 PK- 1 Mr. Rowe: just as harsh a statement, probably even . harsher,! do not know, but that is not the point. The point is. is that the government is able - members of the government are able to avail themselves of that service at the taxpayers 1 expense

whereas members of the Opposition are not allowed to get away with any statement even close to this. Now there ~ are two ways of rectifying the problem. Sir, it really makes me sick in terms of what the hon. members opposite had to say about the Newfoundland Bulletin. They were going to wipe that out. So they did. And they brought in something a little more subtle in an electronic Newfoundland Bulletin. But, Sir, there are two ways of approaching NIS; one, it is all or none si.tuation. We have Newfoundland Information Services for all hon. members of this House of Assembly.

That is one approach; Newfoundland Information Services can be used by all members of the House of Assembly and they do not discriminate, send back or change any wordings. Let the newspapers, let the,media exercise their editorial judgment, and let it be taken care of that way. But let us be fair about it. Let us just not have Newfoundland Information Services for government propaganda. It should be available to all members of the House of Assembly. That is one alternative, but I do not agree with it. AN HON. MEMBER: Who uses it now? MR. ROWE: Well the only peo~le who use it now are the hon. members opposite.

We gave up - we were offered the use of it until they were editoralizing our press release to the point that we just gave up. Now one alternative is to open ·it up for all members of the House of Assembly. They can use PC, Liberal, they can be partisan, punch it out, and let the media exercise editorial judgment as to what they will use because I understand that certainly this stuff is just rolling off the telex machine right into the garbage pa~i in one media here in Newfoundlandt I will not mention ' the particular media in question.

It just comes right out of the telex, not into anybody's desk right into the wastepaper basket

May 27, 1977 Tape 3376 PK - 2 Mr. Rowe: because they know what it is worth. The other alternative, Sir, is to eliminate Newfoundland Information Services altogether. Or as same of my colleagues . suggested,establish certain guidelines that are followed by the personnel of Newfoundland Information Services. Now I have not seen,and my hon. friend from Lewisporte (Mr. White) can correct me, he made some very positive suggestions as to a policy or guidelines that can be used by the personnel of Newfoundland Information Services.

The minister has suggested that Newfoundalnd Information Services have been given these guidelines 0~ a policy. -\ ~1y friends from Lewisporte (Mr. 'Rhite) and Burgee-Bay d 'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) · I think have proven undoubtedly that Newfoundland Information Services have not been following those guidelines, is that correct? MR. WHITE: Right. Right. MR. Rm.JE: Have not been following those guidelines.

Now, Sir, until such time as these guidelines are followed, and if the government intends to keep Newfoundland Information Services, and until such time - okay,if the government intends to keep Newfoundland Information Services I would recommend that until such time as the policy set down by the minister and the guidelines set down by the minister are strictly followed by the personnel of Newfoundland Information Services, and until the members of the Opposition have exactly the same rights to the ,,nse of Newfoundland Information Services, until such time I would suggest that Newfoundland Information Services be completely banned, dismantled, thrown out.

AN HON. MEMBER: Cut the ~·rfres. MR. ROWE: It is not under a heading. AN HON. MEMBER: Cut the wires. MR. ROWE: Cut the wires completely. Now, Sir, there is no heading here, Mr. Chairman, for Newfoundland Information Services. Sa I cannot reduce the

May 27, 1977 Tape no. 3368 Page 1 - ms Mr. Rowe. vote for that particular division or heading. There is no heading for it. But I would give notice, Mr. Chairman - AN HON. MEMBER: vote. MR. ROWE; No. - that when we come. to the appropriate heading, General Administration - MR. ROUSSEAU: of Public Works. MR.

ROWE: I do not get paid as Minister No. - when we come to 1802 heading, Sir, which is the heading under which I understand NIS is hidden or in, I give notice, Sir, that I will move the reduction of that vote, the salary vote , or the total vote for that General Administration, reduce it by $212,000, which I understand is the vote for the Newfoundland Information Services, and that would mean that the total subhead then would be $480,200.

So I give notice, Sir, that when we get to that particular heading that we reduce the subhead for General Administration by $212,000 thereby making it $480,200, thereby eliminating Newfoundland Information Services unless the minister can give a guarantee before · the Committee, which should be interpreted the same as a legal document or sworn statement, unless he will give the undertaking that the guidelines set down by the minister will be strictly followed by the administration, by the Newfoundland Information SerVices, and unless he will indicate to the Committee, Mr.

Chairman, that all hon. members of the House of Assembly will have exactly the same access ,to Newfoundland Information Services as do the various ministers of the Crown and possibly hon. members sitting on the opposite side.

May 27, 197T! MR.. MARSHALL: before he sits down? MR. ROWE: Tape no. 3368 Page 2 - ms May I ask the hen. member a question Yes. MR. MARSHALL: Who would want information, ac-cess-- to Newfoundland Information Services anyway? SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ROWE: I beg your pardon? MR. MARSHALL: I just asked the question, Who would really want access to it? MR. ROWE: That is an excellent question. The question, Mr. Chairman - since I was going to sit down - it is an interesting question, because I was mulling it over in my mind.

You know, if you did eliminate an electronic service that just makes it easier for any member of the House of Assembly to get out a press release or some information, I cannot see anything wrong - for example, let us put it this way; You have a choice as a member; you can get on the phone and start dialing the various radio stations; you can send out one relase and hope that it gets carried by a number of other stations and the printed media or you can have your• own little recording apparatus in your office and send it out.

I do not think th~t something of the magnitude of Newfoundland Information Services is necessary at all. And that is why I move the reduction of that subhead vote oy the amount of $212,000,thereby making it $480,200. In other words, get rid of Newfoundland Information Services until you can come up with something that is efficient for the purposes of getting information, public information,out to the people of Newfoundland, the constituents whom we represent. And that is not the way that Newfoundland Information Services is operating now.

I do not know how it is meant to operate, but it is an interesting question that the member for St. John's East raised, Who wants it anyway? When I think

May 27, 1977 Tape · no. 3368 Page 3 - ms Mr. Rowe,. atiout it,it is a darn good question, because I do not know who wants it- Who wants it? The only reason, the only possible I · ---;;r - - • defence that I can see for something equivalent A job for Butler. MR. ROWE: Well~ I mean that is so despicable that situation. I mean.we all know how the pres~~t _ Director for Newfoundland Information Services got where he got, and it has been repeated in this House, and there is no need whatsoever for me to repeat it. AN .. RON: MEMBER: - . ,

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 3369 NM-. 1 MR. ROWE: Well he is a strange Liberal, a very strange Liberal, Mr. Chairman, a very strange Liberal. MR. PECKFORD: Quite a few of them around t()_() !___ _ MR. ROWE: Yes. There are even stranger Progressive Conservatives, Mr. Chairman. MR. Ir-.. COLLINS : - -- all the time. MR. ROWE: But anyway,the hon. Minister of Health is contributing his usual effort here to the debate, Mr. Chairman.

But unless we can find an efficient method of getting legitimate information to the people of this Province without the partisan political statements that we see coming out of Newfoundland Information Services,and as long as we got -a very partisan Director of Newfoundland Information Services, he is nothing more than a propaS!and.a general, he is General - MR. ROBERTS: General Goebbels. MR. ROWE: - General Goebbels ., or General Butler for the PC Party. He is not even General Butler Goebbels for the administration. Half of the press releases coming out of there, Sir, sound more like PC election brochures.

The one that my friend from Burgee- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) read out last night, I was sure it came out of NIS but I could have swore he was reading from a PC campaign brochure, that is what it sounded like. And that is despicable when you consider the cost to the taxpayers. So, Sir, I give notice once again that we do not want that animal down there. We do not want that monster down there and accordingly I would move the reduction of the subhead under general administration by the amount of $212,000 in order to wipe off the face of Newfoundland and Labrador's map Newfoundland Information Services. MR.

LUSH: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Terra Nova.

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 3369 NM- 2 MR. LUSH!. Mr. Chairman, it is rather strange the two points that I want to elaborate on. Actually just one point,but .. lll"l_hon. _c:.olleague who just finished certainly prompted me to say a few words about the _Newfoundland _Information Services, but I was about _to say that tt is rather strange that I wanted to talk about public tendering and these two points, the Newfoundland Information Services and public tendering were two matters that I thought that this government was going to straighten out, to make very, very effective.

And I am not going to spend a long time on the Newfoundland Information Services other than to say that I concur one hundred per cent with my colleague who just spoke and I was not a member of this House when the NIS was instituted or established but I distinctly remember the circumstances. It was to replace another brochure, I. belive,that the - MR. WHITE: The Newfoundland Bulletin, yes. MR.

LUSH: - yes,!he Newfoundland Bulletin that was suppcsed to be realLy a piece of Liberal propoganda 1 I believe-,and so this government replaced it with The Nefoundland Information .· Services and when my hon. colleague suggested that he was goinR to suggest that the vote under which this expenditure was coming be reduced by $212,000 I certainly ?~ree with it,because I must say that I hardly knew that the NIS was in existence or certainly did not know what it was in existence for. I have. not used it and I have not heard any one who - I have not gotten any advice from anybody to tell me to use it.

If I can gather from the consensus that I hear around that it is certainly not performing a function that is useful to members of this House. But I wanted to direct a few remarks about public tendering and this again was a matter that I thought that this government was going to straighten out. This was something that

May 27' 1977 Tape No. 3369 NM- 3 MR. LUSH: this administration that · criticized. the previous administration for was the matter of public tendering and again . I never dreamt that as a member of this House that I would have to raise that matter because I thought everything here was go~ to be A-1, everything was going to be right and proper, everything was going to be done right acc~rding to the letter of the law. Now in raising a few questions on it last evening the minister passed this book which explains a little bit about public tendering and I just wonder how widespread this booklet is.

I have never seen it before. Maybe that is because of my negligence. But I have never received a copy. Are they mailed out or does a person have to send for them to get them? MR. ROUSSEAU: On re~uest. MR. LUSH: On request. Right. That is probably why I did not get them. But here on paper it is explained but, Mr. Chairman, it is not much point in having things on paper, procedures and law and legislation unless they are enforced -and I think I was not here last evening when my han. colleagues were speaking about public tendering,so I may

May 27,1977 Tape 3370 AH-1 MR. LUSH: just repeat a few· things that they have said and that is because I was not here but I raised the question last night to the minister, just what does the minister, or just what does the government consider to be public tendering? It is my distinct impres-sion that public tendering is just what it says, that the information is made available to the public on whatever job that is being called, that is put in the public press and when I asked the minister last night- MR.

ROUSSEAU: tendering 1you know,we do not send out to the general public but everybody who is involved in the purchasing and tendering of - or purchases all kno"tv these rules and regulations. MR.. LUSH: Okay. MR. ROUSSEAU: But the normal person across the Province unless they request it - it would not be sent out provincially. MR. J...USR: But last night the question that I was trying to get to the minister is; Are there two types of public tendering, and are . there two types of public tendering that are recognized by the government?

In other words, one where the tender is made available, is publicized in the press to that extent, and then is AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. lUSH: That is not the point at all, Mr. Chairman, that is not the point and the hon. member knows it is not the point. The point is that this government 1vas going to straighten out public tendering and what was in the past is in the past and we are now looking to the present and to the future and there is no point in living in the past.

If we are going to tackle the problems of this Province, to govern this Province right,we do not look at the past only in sa much as we can benefit from it, only in so much as we can take things from the past and learn from what happened in the past. But the point I was trying to make is; is it an official policy

May 27,1977 3370 AR-2 MR. LUSH: of the government to recognize two forms of tendering, one that is made public through the press and the media, through the newspapers, and is there another where you just send off a tender to three or foar~contractors? I have heard of that, Mr. Chairman, and I can produce information where this was done with contracts upwards to $100,000, where the tender was just sent off to three or four.

Now maybe the government considers it legitimate, the minister did say last evening~agaih in response to a question that I asked, that if there was a job requiring some particular expertise, some particular skill that rather than make it a public tender they just sent off the tender and the specks to the people who normally did the job.

Well that I suppose makes a little sense~ But in the ones that I am talking about, in the tenders that were brought to my attention, this was not the case4 They were just general construction jobs, just general construction jobs and just - I do not know how many people , how many contractors received the information, were told about the tenders but there were not that many,three or four. So, Mr. Chairman, that certainly suggests that the government is not living up to what they said they would do and I believe the what is the minimum amount?

I think it is $15,000,is it,a joh by government, $15,000 and they have made it · ~ they have made the regulations themselves, this government, that for any job $15,000 and over that public tenders would be called. Now, and I have illustrated an example_of mavbe of a form of public tendering, I do not know, the minister did say as I have suggestec earlier that in the case of some jobs requiring special skills, special - MR. ROUSSEAU: Or emergencies. rfR. LUSH: Right, that maybe just the three or four companies

May 27,1977 MR. LUSH: Tape 3370 AH-3 who are normally doing that were informed and as I said that probably makes a little sense. MR. ROUSSEAU: The hon member must remember that he is talki~g about two different things. That item I gave him is the purchasing,which is 197?, the public tender act is ' 1974. lnd that is construction. And one is th~ tendering for purchases, supplies,the other is the public tender act, 1973 ~11as the purchasing, 1974 was the public tender act, you are talking about two different things. MR. LUSH: Well I am talking about the public tendering act, All right,this is what I am getting at.

Now again I am confused as to what extent the minister's department is involved in the public tendering. I thought I understood last evening again, that his department had a hand in or was responsible for all the tendering excepting transportation and municipal affairs, was that correct?

May 27, 1977 Tape 3371 PK - 1 Mr. Rousseau: No,not - yes, generally you are,_ but not always specifically. Normally we do all the tendering of supplies for the Department of Transportation and Municipal Affairs. They do all their capital work. MR. LUSH: Okay so - MR. ROUSSEAU: And we do all of the supplies for all the departments of government and we do the construction for most of the departments. Highways do th~E own road work, Municipal Affairs do their own water and sewerage, and that sort of thing. MR.

LUSH: Okay so - and does this apply for, let us say, Tourism, for example, do they do their own tendering for capital works? MR. ROUSSEAU: No. Through us. MR. LUSH: Okay. All right. So is there some that the department does take care off and there are others that they do not. All right. The point remains, Mr. Chairman, and I - the ones that I am referring to,The Public Tendering Act - and the ones that . I am referring to are ones that come directly under the responsibility of the minister's department. There is no question about that. They come directly'under his responsibility.

And I talked about one type of tendering that was used where it involved two jobs,and I unfortunately do not remember the specifics of these jobs now other than they were in the vicinity of $100,000, it could have been $90,000, $95,000, but both were in the vicinity of $100,000, and they were types of job; that general construction people could do, general contractors, and in this particular instance that the tender was not public other than made available to three or four companies that did that kind of work.

I am just wondering, and the question I am making, is that a type of tendering that the government - is that a policy? MR. ROUSSEAU: Could I just, you know, because of time I am not going to be able to answer the questions that were raised this morning because some other members might want to - just let me

May 27, 1977 Tape 3371 PK- 2 Mr. Rousseau: straighten the hon. member out. Over $15,000 must be tendered, $15,000 and less do not have to be tendered when the public ~ork \ is ~ne ~f pressing emergency. For example, t~_use th~ one that plucks on the heartstrings, if a boiler blew down in Exon House I would not call public tenders - MR. LUSH: Right that is - MR. ·ROUSSEAU : - I would go ahead and do it. If it was $100,000 I would not by the way or something. Other. ones no, you could maybe take a day or two. Okay. MR. LUSH: Right. MR.

ROUSSEAU: Now if it is over $15,000 and if it was not called on public tender,one or two things would have happened; either it would be something highly technical like my colleagues Health Sciences Complex where maybe one or two or three people only supply highly technical equipment~or it should be tabled on the table of this House, and if it is over $15,000 without tender. So it is one or the other . But it could have been where only two or .three companies in a highly technical supply area were invited to tender.

But if the hon. member has any specifics on it then I stand accused if that happened because if it is over $15,000 it should be tendered. MR. LUSH: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Would hon. members just permit me before we follow on? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Surelv. MR. CHAIRMAN: On behalf of members of the Committee I would like to welcome to the public galleries nine students from Grade VII and IX at Assumption Junior High in Avalondale who are here in the charge of Sister Lee and Helen Doyle.

I am sure all han. members of the Committee,which are the same as the members of the House, wish to welcome these students. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

r. May 27, 1977 Tape 3371 PK- 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: The hen. member for Terra Naval MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate what the hon •. minister just said, and I can understand that kind of situation. But the circumstances in which I am talking now~as I said,these circumstances were not in existence. And I would mention them but there are certain circumstances at the moment that prevent me from doing that~ and I certainly will do it in due course as soon as I can I will bring it to the minister as soon as I have gotten the information.

And ~hen the last one that I want to mention,because I do want to give the minister some time, I mentioned one form of tendering~this was the last instance,right- whether the tenders were sent out to three or four people, but maybe four or five. And the last one is that I also have information which tells me that there is a job in St. John's with a government building that was done- and again I do not know the figures, all I know is that it is far in excess of $15,000.

It does not look to be an emergency situation, although probably the government could classify it as such, but I am looking into it, but it does not look to be an emergency situation - and again no tenders were called, nobody was informed of this only one company, a well known company, and I shall name that company when I have found cut the facts, but I am presently going through it, and I just want to

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 3372 NM- 1 MR. LUSH: bring this to the minister's attention too - and this certainly suggests that the government is not following the Public Tendering Act. So I brought up two cases - one, where tenders were sent out to a few people, and this last case where tenders were sent out to nobody - MR.. ROUSSEAU: But in fairness,how many more can you - you know I mean, there are a couple short, be goofs. there is always going to MR. LUSH: Well I am just asking the miniter to clarify that situation,that is all. I am just asking whether that is a policy of the government.

I just used that,but in the last case there were no tenders called at all. I do not know the exact dollars only to know that it is far in excess ~ I will be getting the facts and they· are pretty factual. It is just that there are certain circumstances at the moment and the amount is far in excess of $15,000, probably tripling and quadrupling. MR.

ROUSSEAU: Let me assure the hon. member' of something, that the hon. member does not have to look for the facts because if the hon. member wants to come down into my office and name the circumstances I will give the hon. member the facts, instead of wasting;.· his time I am sure which he - I will give bim the facts. I mean he does not have to go out and bring them in to me. I will give them to him. MR. LUSH: Okay. I thank the minister for that and I will do that. I will certainly do it. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I am finished.

I just wanted. again to say that these two points that I mentioned, the NeWfoundland Information Services, this was something that I thought the government was setting up to be a very efficient system to the benefit of all MHA's~and public tendering, I thought that was ironed out. I thought that patronage was going to be removed from politics in Nefoundland and everything was going to be again clean and tilv white. but it looks like that is not the situation, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 2372 MR •. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Placentia~ MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to speak very briefly on the estimates of the Department of Public Works. I would like to congratulate the minister - SOHE RON. MEMBERS : Hear ! Hear! NM- 2 MR.. PATTERSON: in getting his estimates across. I should also like to congratulate him on having obtained the services of a very competent··man in the person of Mr. Tom Whelan, Deputy Minister. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR.

PATTERSON: And the minister finds himself in a very peculiar, awkward position in that many of the things that he is being accused of in his department did not happen on his watch. So I think we should MR. WHITE: We said that. MR. PATTERSON: Well I am reaffirming what you said so·now I wish to jibe .with the member for Lewisporte (Mr. White), that is right, in: saying that the mia.ister should not be · accused, he cannot be asked to bear one hundred per cent responsibility for something that did not happen on his watch. The Department of Public Works is a very difficult department for a minister to administer.

The Department of Transportation you can budget, you can budget in Municipal Affairs, you can budget in Tourism, but it is just about virtually impossible for the minister to budget because things are going to happen. to be let. They are unforeseen and there are contracts that have Now I am not defending the system of letting contracts without tender,but there are times when you will get an overrun on a job. I have been involved in construction work myself and there are times you bid on something and then you get into the electric and you go- from the electric to the masonry and you go

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 2372 NM- 3 MR. PATTERSON: from the masonry where you find out you need a tube in a boiler. So there is really no way that you can budget for suc;h .. ~hings in it. ---------------- _____ __:f!_ow d~ring t~e ~_p~t year the Government of Newfoundland and the Federal Government of Canada has been negotiating with the American authorities for the properties on the North side of Argentia. And one year ago the Department of Public Works decided that in order to safeguard the properties out there that they would put in security guards,which they did and I congratulate them for that.

They certainly went a long ways in preventing further vandalism to the very valuable properties that are out there. But I would like to ask the minister, you know,what his intentions are with regard to that security, Is he going to continue along the same form, same pattern aR has been the past year or is he going to make changes?

I think that changes are absolutely necessary there not only from the point of security but from the point that the men working there are being paid very, very low wag·es and I do not like to see that happen,and I do not think we should condone or support any groups, contractors or agencies that are paying a starvation wage. Now I do not say that they should get out of business because they cannot pay it because

May 27' 1977 Tape 3373 PK- 1 Mr. Patterson: sometimes if the money is not in, it is something you_have to try and juggle it to meet the payroll, but we should not support that type of tactic. Insofar as public buildings are concerned in the district of Placentia, we have a courthouse there, it is used as a courthouse, it is a jail~and Social Services. It is in an old building that was built in 1909, I believe, a very historic building, and.I certainly would not want to see that building destroyed.

I would like to see it renovated, and possibly a realignment of the building so that the Department of Social Services could have more room, and the jail, there are two cells there, and sometimes there are four and five in a cell. You know that is sometfting that we should not tolerate. And I am quite sure that the minister as soon as he, you know, can get down to business on that he will certainly make the necessary renovations. Again I wish to congratulate him; he has a rough boat to rm.r.

But I am sure that han. gentlemen opposite will bear in mind,as I stated here and as they have stated also,that the department is one that is very diffic~lt to budget for. MR. CHAIRMA.i.1' (MR. YOUNG) : The han. Minister of Public Works and Services. $.. ROUSSEAU: I have four minutes, I think, is it, Mr. Chairman? AN HON. MEHBER: I will give you five seconds. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Six minutes. HR. ROUSSEAU: NUmber one. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): The han. minister has four minutes, yes. MR. ROUSSEAU: Quickly from the bottom, yes, Sir, 'l'he han. member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson):we are going to change the system and ~.;re are going to hire these people who are on the security watch on our open vote so that the wages will be paid in accordance with_ government regulations. I can assure the han. member of that, and the deputy minister who is from the area · is keeping a very close on that building, and hopefully we will be able to do something there as well. I join in all the suggestions this morning of our new

May 27, 1977 Tape 3373 PK- 2 Mr. Rousseau: Deputy Minister, Mr. Whelan and the other staff in the department as well. We have a job to do. And the Auditor General's report might have helped in convincing government that it is not the junior non-line department that has no affect on other departments of government, and hopefully it will grow in strength and numbers as a result of that. The han. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) mentioned the public tendering. All I can say is that everything is tendered publicly, for purchases, always except in an emergency situation where it is solicited by telephone.

In public tendering up to $15,000 except where the public work is of pressing emergency and in which the delay would be injurious to the public interest it should be tendered. And if it is nat tendered then I should table it, which I have been doing. So there has to be some set of circumstances.

Now obviously when a person goes in a pulls out a wall and the electrician cannot work on it because the union says that it is a masonery job or something of that nature, which is, you know,not a tiny matter, it is a very big matter, and there are a lot of jurisdictional disputes, we have had tae Health Sciences Complex closed down for weeks because of jurisdictional dispute so theEe is that problem, but like I say I invite the hon. member to come down to my office; he does not have to search out the facts for that outside this building.

We will certainly be prepared to give him the facts at any instance like that. The exchange of dollars, and I have to do this quickly, for the hon. member for Burgee-Bay d 'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) , yes, that the Audiror General does not. agree .. with that. That is dnne- with the approval of Treasury- Board anci with: the . approval to the departmetrt:s";. We. do not see- anything:- wrong:· itr it. But obviously the Auditor General .does .not· like :. i.t. We ar~ going: to take a look at it.

It is not an attempt'"laa . the . hoa .. member for Burgee-Bay d 'Espoir suggested,.. it is not. an . attemp-t::""· to ge.t . around- . anything- or to create any illegalities, just that . the. systeDF:is: . not condoned ·by- the. ·. Auditor General. It is- approved :by- Treasury- Board ·,. as I say;. in:. consultation

May 27, 1977 Tape 3373 PK - 3 Mr. Rousseau: with both departments. Arid we will certainly take a look at it, as we will of all aspects of the Auditor General's report. On the question of Newfoundland Information Services~! have passed out a memo this morning, I tabled it 9 which I suggested I would do last night. I will look at the whole situation down there. I am not going to fire Dave Butler, which is what the people asked here this morning. But we will keep an eye on it. You know, the rules are there. Iwtilt~ly~ what the rules are.

Now obvioulsy every press release that goes out cannot be looked at, You know, some of them may get through, but let me tell the hon. members of the House sometliing they may not know,that the issuing of press releases is about 10 per cent and I use that figure of a couple of years ago, of the work of the Newfoundland Information Services. They are constantly mailing out information on government to all parts of this Province, to the schools, to out-of-the-province, all the inquiries are

, ,J May 27,1977 Tape 3374 AH-1 MR. ROUSSEAU: routed through them so the service that they provide is not only one of putting out the TWX machines across this Province for press releases.it is also-any other body in the Province that is partially or wholly funded by government may also use it, there is the question - and I am prepared,by the way,and I will do this, Mr.

Chairman, I will do it, is to have Newfoundland Information Services Department through them to prepare a report on just what they do and I will table it in the Rouse, and members will find that only a small aspect of their work is the issuing of press releases. [ am sorry I do not have enough time - I am not saying to defend themselves-just' to : let the hon members of the House know what services they are providing, in '.rhat relative percentage relationship~and I am sorry I did not have more time.

I would like to go in more depth to the questions that were raised but it is eleven forty-nine and my time is up and I wish to thank all hon. members for the courtesy they have extended me in the last four hours. ~. CRAIRHA.L'if : Order please! The remainin~ items under Head 18 -Public Works and Services, carried with that amendment - MR. ROWE: No, Mr. Chairman, 'vith amendment to 1802,sub- amendment 1802 General Administration. I move that the vote be reduced by $212,000 thereby making it $480,200 for the purposes of eliminating NIS, seconded by my colleague and friend from Fogo. HR. CHAIRMA.L'if : Order please!

Unfortunately time is expired on that reading and it should have been done at - MR. ROt-JE: But why, could I ask the - I am not challenging the Chair, Mr. Chairman, obviously,but the Chair did as~ shall the remaining headings carry without amendment. That was the

May 27,1977 Tape 3374 AH-2 MR. ROWE: question and I simply responded by saying no. MR. CF~I~~: Order please! With the agreement item (2) said"With the exception of the Estimates of the Department of Mines and Energy and the Department of Fisheries, at the conclusion of the time allocated under Standing Order 117(1) for each department, or at an earlier time if no member indicates he wishes to speak~ the Chairman of the Committee of Supply shall put all questions necessary to carry the estimates for that department and such questions are not debatable. MR. RIDEOUT: Shall put,right. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Carried. MR..

PECKFORD: Heading 20 Page 125 Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment. MR. CHAIR¥..AN : 2001-01. Heading 20 The hon. minister. Consumer Affairs and Environment MR. ~IURPHY : ~1r. Chairman, I take great pleasure and great pride at this time to bring before the House for their approval the estimates of the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment. I think most members are aware that durning 1976 a bill was introduced into this House to change the name of the old Department of Provincial Affairs and Environment to Consumer Affairs and Environment.

I think the main thrust of this was to place more emphasis on consumerism than had been previously done because of the great demands from people.,, people all over the Province,with reference to the high increase in the cost of living and the great rate of inflation. We also started, Sir, last year a decentralization programme, we opened regional offices in Corner Brook and Grand Falls with the thought in mind of eventually getting into the Labrador area, particularly Happy Valley-Goose Bay. I may say that the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment, as far as outside St.

John's is concerned,created a record, not only in Newfoundland but all over Canada. We opened our offices in

May 27,1977 Tape 3374 AH-3 MR. MURPHY: November and within a month we had' doubled the staff of these departments. We started with one in Corner Brook and Grand Falls and within a month we had each with two~ so that is· doubling and whatever the numbers are we did double our staff. The demands and the requests, Sir, from all ove~ the Province for information and for education was tremendous~. in the Department of Consumer Affairs particularly,and perhaps to give you some idea, Mr.

Chairman, and to give the Rouse some idea and the committee, during 1976 the department received 3,928 written and telephone complaints. Just to repeat that again, Sir, and to show the importance of the programme that we had launched, we received 3,928 written and telephone complaints. The regional offices at Corner Brook and Grand Falls ~.;ere open during November, as I said.,

May 27, 1977 Tape No. 33?__? __ _ _ MR..- MURPHY : an~_in December a total of 815 writeen and telephoned complaints were received. So these received a total of 4.743 • requests for information and knowledge of what was happening in Consumer Affa~rs. So we are very happy indeed that we fill that need and in our department we find that the more we put into education, the more NM- 1 work we create for ourselves because we have people thinking and curious and I think, Sir, that is the main thrust of Consumer Affairs.

The complaints received were in very man~ categories, such as loaa and finance, collection agencies, automobile repairs, car service repairs, real estate, mobile homes, food,drugs and I could go on and on and elaborate on that but I think generally the number of requests that were received gives some idea of the interest that was created in Consumer Affairs. Now in the Department of Consumer Affairs itself there are many sections that my department come under. We have the landlord - tenant area, and that division is constantly on the move. They

schedule hearings and complaints in both the Island part of our Province and on the Mainland

part in Labrador. During 1976 they received 385 written applications. We heard 281 cases and there were 807 inspections made of premises following representations from individuals. The Co-op Division, which is just a registry unfortunately, and I may add here, Mr. Chairman, that my ambition is that one day again the Co-op Division will be a full fledged department of this government and we will be in a position to put some money in it to stimulate and assistco-operatives and credit unions as ve knew them many years ago. As an old co-operator back forty-odd years ago,

May 27' 1977 . Tape No. 3375 EC - 2 MR. MURPHY: as an old member of the Credit Union on Water Street,, old Royso 'co-op, or Credit Union~ I am very, very keen, Mr. Chairman, on having co-opbecome a vital, very vital part of the lives of our people, here in the Province of Newfoundland. The night before last, I attended a dinner in ! Sydney, Nova Scotia, of the credit unions, The Halifax Credit Union League.

There were represented there some sixty-eight credit unions, with some 204 delegates attending, from all over the Province of Nova Scotia, and bringing to that meeting, varied and many phases of the way people live. And they are very much similar to our existence here in Newfoundland, such as fisheries, farming, logging - that type of~ing. And I certainly hope that, when the time arrives, and the time is arrived, actually, when monies are available, that we can create more field men to take

part in the Co-op area. The Metric and Standards Division is another area of my department, Mr. Chairman and the Committee, and this is something that we sort of are taking very easy in our st~ide at the present time. But, in a few short years, what we knew of measurements and distances all our lives will have changed drastically, because instead of talking about miles and feet and inches, we will be talking about metres and litres and kilometres - what have you. So, there is a very strong educational programme going on. Mr.

Gus Corcoran, Jr., is director of that division of my department, and he works very closely with the Department of Education, who have an educational programme going on for the schools. One of our problem areas,· and one area that we would like to get into with Consumers - and many other areas, of course - is Labrador, because this government is very, very aware of the problems experienced in Labrador.

And we are doing everything in our power, and we hope, · when their office is open in Happy Valley - Goose Bay, and I say this to my hon. colleague here on this side, that we hope to have a full-time man in there, in Consumerism,and perhaps, Co-operatives, and perhaps every other area of the Province that can be there. Because,

May 27, 1977 Tape No . 3375 EC- 3 MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, there is nothing that can replace the face-to-face confrontation between person and the government. And I say this, 'Rhen they came, they said, ''We are going to bring the government to the people.'\ And I think we have done that in very, very many areas, because we have offices established in Grand Falls and Corner Brook, and I hope, and I might add here, Mr.

Chairman, that now that we have become fairly well established, even though the workload is tremendous, I hope that the people on the West Coast, out of the Corner Brook office, can set up an office, perhaps once a month., in areas such as, perhaps, St. Anthony, in the Port Saunders area, the Stephenville area, Channe~ - Port-aux-Basques area, where

May 27, 1977 Tape no. 3376 Page 1-~ a consumer agent will go there. We will make the publicity ' known, and the people can come in there and chat with their problems. The hen. member for Lewisporte (Mr. White) yesterday - I was very much impressed with his suggestion of perhaps establishing offices for the MBA's in their own particular districts. I think I can go along with that in the sense, I think, in every area such as:- it might be Lewisporte or St.

Anthony or Springdale, all these areas - there should be some kind of a little building we call the public building, whether it is owned by council or a private person, where councillors could sit in there to meet people, where all the government departments, even though we do not have anybody full-time, could go in there and have an office there where they can go in and sit down and alsa have it for the use of the MHA, no matter what political stripe or anything else, to have it there for him so that he can bring his clients in.

And as the hon.member said, instead of ha~_ ins him come up and perhaps sit on your bed or sit in the kitchen - I was going to remark jokingly at the time that it must cost him plenty, because if there was a meal on the stove, and a constituent comes in to see him, the inclination is to ask him would he stay for dinner, you know. But I think it is excellent in all areas of this Province, and there is no reason - because, you know, whoknows ;what the next government will be in the next thirty or forty years. Lord only knows, the Liberals may be in the government, and so we would be looking for the same thing.

But it applies, I think - we have got to come face to face. So no matter what we are,-ve represent people,whether it is St. John's or whether it is Port au Port or whether whatever area it is. We will represent the people no matter what our political stripe is. And the aim of all of

May 27' 1977 Tape no. 3376 Page 2 - ms Mr. Murp}ly. us should be to bring to the people all the information and all the satisfaction that we can give them. So I hope that everything going, and if conditions improve , and we do get a few extra dollars that I will be able to move the department - I should not use the word 'I' - that we will be able to move some of our consumer agents out and be on call where they can travel around in different areas, but this is a game subject to what monies are available. We also have a very, very important division under Consumer Affairs, Mr.

Chairman, and that is the office of the Superintendent of Insurance. Now I may say here that last year was a very, very active year in the insurance field, and I think the main highlight, of course, was the creation of the Automobile Insurance Board and we dealt basically - that Committee did - with automobile insurance. ~fuen we tried to establish rates, people were frightened to death at some of the rates that are being charged for automobile insurance, and it is not only in Newfoundland, but I think pretty well all across the North American continent.

But we did set up that Committee, they held hearings and established rates. TI1irty-two per cent, I think, was the rate of an increase looked for at the time; t~ey established a rate of eight per cent. That Committe thought they would just have to sit down and spend a fe~o1 days listening to people and hold hearings, but they had some seventy-odd, I think, meetings. There are seventy-odd insurance companies in the Province and everybody wanted to go and see them.

So, for that reason, we felt, to fulfill the bill and give everybody the satisfaction they feel they deserve - and everybody has a right to feel they deserve complete satisfaction - that legislation is now on the books to

r May 27, 1977 Tape no. 3376 Page 3 - RT Mr. Murphy. transfer that group to the Public Utilities Board where it will come in, where they will have the proper facilities to assess and estimate, and everything else. Another matter, of course, of insurance - and I look at the han. member for Stephenville (Mr. McNeil) and the Western area particularly - is mobile home insurance, which we found it was very difficult to get insurance. Insurance generally, I might add, before I go off the automobile insurance -what an industry it is, and what money it creates! In 1975, Mr.

Chairman, there was $30 million paid in automobile insurance premiums, and in 1976 it was estimated that it would be $36 million~and that is a lot of money to turn over in a little Province like Newfoundland. I understand that the greater majority of that - some seventy per cent -goes to some big, Mainland firm that sort of re-insures, I believe - re-insurers that carry the bulk of the great risk. They tell me that this is very lucrative for these people, but the local person, perhaps, is not making the same money.

In my own opinion, I do not think there are any. of them starving to death and they are all doing very well. But we are looking at the whole question, and one problem that I experienced myself as a member for an older part of St. John 1 s is people who had their homes insured for sixty or seventy years. The crunch came when they were refused insurance or found it almost impossible to get it because of the fact they did not have electric heat or a sophisticated oil furnace in their home. I think many people have found that.

I was, as I said, in Sydney the night before last, and one of the problems brought up in the discussion was that people there - and we talk about the energy crisis here, and the power - when I chatted TNith some of the people in Nova Scotia - and some of the power rates they are paying. A lot of them have gone back to the old wood stove and coal stove, and they have been refused insurance completely in some of these homes because of that reason. So these are some of the

May 27, 1977 Tape 3377 PK- 1 Mr. Murphy: problems we are experiencing. Life insurance, of course, is not a big problem with us because it is in many cases self-regulatory, so we do not have that problem. In view of all of the representations that the department had received from automobile and home insurance, Sir, I asked the Cabinet for permission to set up an investigating committee to look into the whole question 'of insurance, and I understand now there is a preliminary r-eport just about ready to come to me, looking at the whole question of insurance, of coverage, of rates, and many other things.

And particularly at this time we have gone right into the whole question of automobile insurance, not only public liability but comprehensive and collision, all the other areas that are covered by insurance generally. So these are all matters that have been handled, and as I say they are a part of The Department of Consumer Affairs. Perhaps real estate is another one. And as people know we have received an awful lot of complaints from people that they were been taken for monies, for real es~ate transactions and this type of thing.

We licence real estate agents and we have an exam now set up and we work with the Real Estate Board to regulate the licencing of agents because they are just as anxious as we are to have a good name established for real estate or any other line of work. And we did have some prosecutions under the Act for people who had strayed somewhat from the straight and narrow, and these actions were taken, licences suspended. But I might say now in justice that some of these people had perhaps broken the law, and were subject to fines and this type of thing.

We get appeals back for people to have their licences renewed, and I think every man, the old saying is, is entitled to fall three times. I do not know if we can go that far, but I have with

May 27, 1977 Tape 3377 PK - 2 Mr. Murphy: the help of Cabinet set up an Advisory Board of independent people that will review these people who did lose their licences and see if they are condemned forever to be out of the business or should we give them another chance to come in, and I think this is a bit human to do because we have got to do that.

Now the other big part of my department, Sir, and I do not want to spend too long at this, but I would just like to give a rundown, is the Department of the Environment,which was formerly known by another name CAWSA but it is now the Department of the Environment,and we try to adopt as much as we can the uniform regulations dealing with environment right across North America. One of our big problems, of course, in this Province is - we call them dumps, but the nice way is the waste disposal sites.

And I know many, many members of this House who represent smaller areas must have an awful lot of problems with people worrying about their waste disposal sites. And ~,;re have constructed more than fifty in the past few years at a cost of over $1 million. Now waste disposal sites as such fill a need in many areas of the Province to dump your garbage and this type of thing. But the greatest handicap we have is the finding of sufficient fill to cover these waste disposal sites.

On the coastal areas particularly, and I think my han. friend from down the Cape, I think,had a bit of a problem but I hope it is getting straightened away now, where r.,;re will get people on the thing. It does not require millions of dollars but even to scrounge $3,000 or $4,000 out of a small department like mine where my total budget is something like $2 million , and t'lvo-thirds of that is salary so you see I do not have any millions to play around with in any area.

And if you look at priorities, of course, everybody talks about the fishery, and education and all the great resource departments and the Department of the Environment and Consumer P~fairs is just another also ran.

May 27, 1977 Tape 3377 PK - 3 Mr. Murphy: We are hoping now, and I just say this for the enlightenment of the House, to try to get into some type of incinerator for areas and, I think, St. John·' s is op,e area that should look at it. That Robin Hood Bay is a disgrace, I wauld say, to any city the sue of St. John's and its . environment. We have a plan going in Conception Bay Centre where there were a group of areas from Cupids to Carbo