LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 11 August, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -EMPLOYMENT SERVICES AND ECONOMIC SECURIT Y MR. CHAIR MAN, M. Dolin: We are dealing with Resolution No. 55, on Page 59, Item 2.(b)

(2) Social Allowances Program -the Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, actually I think this has more to do with 2.(b)(1). MR. CHAIRMAN: We passed it, but go ahead. MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you for that. Would the department have a policy on single parents whose spouses have deserted or departed under one circums tance or another in respect to filing claims for maintenance? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minis ter of Economic Security. HON. L.

EVANS: We have a definite policy of trying to do whatever we can to find the spouse and require that spouse to provide the maintenance that may - I gue ss you 're as suming the court had ordered maintenance payments. If that's the case, we certainly do make an effort. I think there have been changes in the legislation in the last couple of years so that Mani toba is in the forefront in this respect, so we defin itely make this effort. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, the Mini ster somehow qu alifies that by saying they try, or is there a laid-down guid eline that in every single case that these things are pursued or if there's no hope of any success - I assume � nothing is done -but is there anybody who falls through the cracks and gets away with it? HON. L. EVANS: No system is perfect but the law allows us to take steps to ensure that the enforcement comes about. I'm advised that under the Attorney-General, there is a monitoring procedure under the Family Maintenance Act and there is an enforcement process, so there is a laid-down legal process that is followed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: I think that's all I had on that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( b)(2)-pass; 2.(b)

(3) Muni cipal Assistance -pass. 2.(

c) Manitoba Supplement for Pensioners -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, now in this, did this department add staff, because there is an addition to the Salaries this department? 2810 HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we did add three staff because of expansion of programs. MRS. C. OLESON: Then what caused the additional expenses in that department? Is it still with the addition to the program, or was there another reason? HON. L. EVANS: Well, as I ind icated in my opening statement, there is a huge increase in the number of eligible people.

No longer do you have to show that you are getting some other pension income in order to be eligible between 55 and 64. That used to be a requirement. That's been wiped out. Also, because we've changed the eligibility levels, generally we've got an expansion of -the 65-and-over com ponent, we've expanded by 5,600, estim ated expansion of 5,600 people. Between 55 and 64, we expect another 3, 700. So that's a huge increase. MRS. C. OLESON: Does the Minis ter estimate that most of these will be women? HON. L.

EVANS: Well, it's difficult to say, but I expect that there will be a great num ber, particularly in the 55 to 64, who will be women. I think they're probably going to benefit to a larger extent than the men. MRS. C. OLESON: Just for clarification, people will qualify for this who have, within of course the guidelines in income, but who have no pension at all, as opposed to before when it was only for people who had a small pension of some type or some of their income from pension. HON. L. EVANS: That's right. They had to fall within the income guidelines and have some other pension income.

Fifty percent or more had to be from some pension sources. So that's being wiped out. To give you it in a better perspective, in 19 85-86, we had roughly 18 ,400 people in the program. In 19 86- 87, we'll have approximately 27,200. So that's about a 50 percent increase in the size of the program. So this is why we have to add a few staff. MRS. C. OLESON: Well then, for someone who has no income at all and would be on social assistance, would they be eligible for this or would it be deducted from their social assistance? HON. L. EVANS: They could apply, but it would be deduc ted from their social assistance. MRS.

C. OLESON: Yes, so it would be of no benefit to them to apply? HON. L. EVANS: No. You could understand why, because others could criticize special benefits being paid. MRS. C. OLESON: According to the chart, and I believe it was in the annual report -and I think the Minis ter's

Monday, 11 August, 1986 had this asked of him before -the discrepancy in the amounts, $18 7.68 for single pensioners and $202 each per annum for married. Is something going to be done about this disc repancy? HON. L. EVANS: We're very cogn izant of tha t dis crepan cy. We were cogniz ant right from the beginning. The fact is that, however, we've more than doubled the spending in the area. There is a limit to how much additional you can spend. We made a decision; we would double the benefits; we would eliminate the pension requirement, to bring more in; and we would automatically index it from now on.

Every year it will be automatically in dexed in accordance with the Consumer Price Index change. That cost a lot of money. It got us to more than doubling, from $3.2 million to $7 million -not to speak of the adminis tration costs. It was felt by the government that's as far as we could go at this point. To go beyond that would req uir e another several hundr eds of thousands of dollars -another half-million dollars. If I can find another half-million dollars, then we can eliminate that anomaly. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)(1)- pass; (c)(2)-pass; (c)(3)­ pass; (

d) Child Related Income Support Program -the Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'll just put in a word here for the Honourable Mem ber for Springfield, who, I believe, had questions on the Manitoba Supplement for Pensioners item. I wonder if we could come back to that, if the honourable member should come back in this evening? MRS. C. OLESON: If he comes back, we could talk about it under the Minister's Salary, perhaps? MR. CHAIRMAN: If it's agreeable with the Min ist er, certainly. Meanwhile, we'll move on to (d). The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C.

OLESON: I believe I asked the Min ister about this before, of course, but the Estima tes do not reflect the increase in the funding for this program. The Min ister had told me in the House that it was something they thought of -or words to that effect -that they thought of it just before the Budget. Where is the Mini ster going to get the funds for this additional payment to families? HON. L. EVANS: This was the decision that was taken prior to the Budget; it was announced in the Budget.

I guess the Min ister of Finance indica ted this, but if he didn't, it has to be provided in Su pplementary Supply because that took place after these Estima tes were prepared and printed, as a matter of fact. MRS. C. OLESON: How many farm families does the Minister predict will be benefited by this addition? HON. L. EVANS: We estimate 1,500. MRS. C. OLESON: If a family is on social assistance, then these payments are deduc ted from their social assistance payments, are they? HON. L EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MRS. C. OLESON: There's a one-time only paymen1 referred to in the publications about this.

On what basis do you pay the one-time only payment? HON. L EVANS: What we did was indic ate to people that they could apply if they were eligible tor this benefi1 year, then the farmers would also be eligible for the one-time payment. Of course it was made because o1 the farm crisis. So it was a special payment to farm families who qualified for this benefit year. The basis of the calculation was simply 12 months times the $30, that would be up to that amount, that would be the maximum; 12 times $30 is $360 per child, maximum. MRS. C. OLESON: That goes from last year's income, like their income from 1985. HON. L.

EVANS: Mr. Chairman, it's always based on the previous year. MRS. C. OLESON: Yes, on the previous year's income. The reason I ask is that I had a call from people who were concerned because the one-time only payment, I guess as you've just said, is tied in with the eligibility for the monthly payments and they had had their monthly payments decreased this year, and the one­ time only payment was decreased also and they were rather upset about it.

But their income must have, would you suggest just from that brief resume of it, that their income must have in creased last year, probably not enough to be that noticeable but just got them into the different bracket for their one-time only payment. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the answer is yes. MRS. C. OLESON: I think we could pass that item then. MR. CHAIRMAN: (d)(1)-pass; (d)(2)-pass; (d)(3)­ pass. Pa ge 60, It em (

e) Economic Security Field Operations-the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: The increase reflected in Salaries in this, it does reflect the increase in social assistance, and what else, any other reason? HON. L EVANS: This is field staff, Mr. Chairman, and it does reflect an increase of 9.09 staff year equivalent, not 909 but 9.09. MRS. C. OLESON: Does the Min ister feel that under a one-tier system that he'd need a lot more staff than this to handle it? HON. L.

EVANS: If we got into a one-tier system, depending on how far we went, there are suggestions of just involving ourselves in the rural municip alities to begin with, then the larger towns and then the cities, and so on. But regardless, there will have to be additional staff, I couldn't tell you how many. 281 1 We would try to use as much of the existing field operation staff that we have of course, but we would t s e t e f

Monday, 11 August, 1986 certainly have to add to the staff. I don't know whether we have any estimates, I think that's rather premature because we're a long way from that position. MRS. C. OLESON: Pass that item. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 2.(e)(1)- pass; 2.(e)(2)-pass. Resolution 55: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $191 ,245,600 for Emplo yment Services and Economic Security, Economic Security for the fiscal year ending 31s t day of March, 1987- pass. Now move to Emplo yment Services, Resolution 56; 3.(a)-the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Could the Min ister tell me how close he is to having those Orders for Return ready for me; the one from last year and the one from this year? The one from last year first, we'll start with that. HON. L. EVANS: My unde rs tanding is tha t - (Inte rjection) - Is the honourable member talking about the Manitoba Commu nity Assets Program? MRS. C. OLESON: And the Careerstart Program - both of them. I submi tted them in May 1985, I think it was, and then again after the Session started. HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, on the Manitoba Comm uni ty Assets Program , I'm advised -and I checked on this twice with people -that we cannot table it until we have the French translation and that is immi nent. MRS. C. OLESON: You must be kidding. HON. L. EVANS: That's what I'm told and, therefore, technically we cannot table it till it's translated into French. Having said that, I should point out that every one of the MCAP grants was put out in a news release showing the location and the amount and the purpose of the grant, so those are all out at any rate.

You'd have to look at half a dozen news releases, but they usually group them by allegiance and so on. MRS. C. OLESON: I know, that's the problem. HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MRS. C. OLESON: That's all the information there is. HON. L. EVANS: But if you had some specific inquiries, we could try to get that, but that is the technical reason. I've checked again recently with the House Leader and this is what I'm advised. MRS. C. OLESON: Is the Minister telling me all Orders for Return sub mitted to the House cannot be tabled until they're in both languages? HON. L.

EVANS: I would have to check that again, but I only asked about this because I knew my Estimates were coming up and I asked about this and this was the answer I got for MCAP. I don't know - I can check again with either the Attorney-General, or the Clerk of the House may be the better person to check with, regarding all Orders for Return. Mr. Chairman, I'm advised it's the same thing for Careerstart, although for Careerstart there was a very large amount of work involved.

The last one still isn't finished because there's a lot of work to produce it the way the member asked for it, but certainly as soon as we get it, Mr. Chairman -I wished that it was and we would have given it to the Minis ter -but if she has some specific questions, we could try to answer those. MRS. C. OLESON: Well there may be some flow when we get to those programs.

The Canadian Job Strategy, could the Minis ter point out to us which programs are funded by this in this department, just so we won't be asking each one separately, or would you rather as we come into each one mention how much of those funds flow to it? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we do have somewhere a list of Canadian Job Strategy Programs and we could review those. That's the Federal Government's program of course. Some of them relate to our department and indeed not all of them. Usually the ones we were talking about are those that are jointly funded. Mr.

Chairman, maybe the best way is to touch on this when we get to the specific ones. The four programs that are funded by the Canadian Job Strategy in our department are: New Careers; the Selkirk Training Plant; the Job Access for Young Adults; and fourthly, the Sing le-Parent Job Access Program. MRS. C. OLESON: With regard to the Limestone Training Agen cy, how many entered that training course? HON. L. EVANS: I should say, Mr. Chairman, the Limestone Training Agency as such comes under the Minis ter responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

That Min ister is respon sible for the training agency , although our staff do help in finding candidates for potential trainees and so on. Now, I don't know whether the staff have any data on that or not. We could try to get that information. We don't have any at the moment. MRS. C. OLESON: Then this department does not administer that program? HON. L. EVANS: The Limestone Training Agency comes under the Minis ter responsible for Manitoba Hydro, although our northern field staff are involved in assisting in various ways and coordinating and counselling and so on.

So we are involved but the direct res ponsibili ty for the agency is under the Min ister of Hydro. MRS. C. OLESON: And no direct funds from this department flow into it? HON. L. EVANS: Just to back up a bit, we negotiated the training agreement with the Federal Government. There is a joint -with the Federal and Provincial Governments, but that money having been assigned to that agency, any involvement on our staff -we provide 2812

Monday, 11 August, 1986 them with any assistance or whatever -they pay our staff as I understand it. There is a payment from the agency to the department. There's a transfer of funds from the department for any services that we may engage in a sup portive nature to that agency. MRS. C. OLESON: We can go then to the Emplo yment Development and Youth Services of that. Oh, just a moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass (a)? MR. J. McCRAE: No, one little question, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Under Admin istration for Employment Services, what would the Other Expenditures be? HON. L.

EVANS: I'm advised that this one large item there is a grant to the Winnipeg Unem ployed Help Centre as well as the newly es tablished Brandon Unemployed Help Centre. Both of these are engaged in assisting UIC clients or potential clients with their claims. So that's the biggest reason for that increase. MR. J. McCRAE: Well, it's really, Mr. Chairman, only an incr ease of about $40,000.00. - (I nterjection) - How could that account for the Winnipeg and Brandon operations? HON. L. EVANS: The 86-87 represents a transfer from the Department of Labour's Budget.

They had $62,000 previously for the centre and there is $45,000 for the Brandon Unem ployed Help Centre. MR. J. McCRAE: So that, Mr. Chairman . HON. L. EVANS: So therefore, Mr. Chairman, just to finish off, this only reflects the Brandon - (Int erjection) - the 85 figure has been adjusted. So this only reflects the Brandon increase. MR. J. McCRAE: Do I take it then the Brandon Unemployed Help Centre has a budget of about $40,000 for this ... ? HON. L. EVANS: I believe it's around $45,000.00. MR. J. McCRAE: That $45,000 is to cover what expenses at the Brandon Unem ployed Help Centre? HON. L.

EVANS: It's given to that centre which has its own board and they will use it to hire staff and pay whatever other expenses are required, rent, utilities, any travel if necessa ry. It is hoped that centre will obtain other funds from the communi ty. That is the thought, from the United Way or other organizations that you'd want to contribute towards it. In fact, it may be getting some now. I'm not sure. MR. J. McCRAE: I'm surprised, Mr. Chairman, that this centre would be set up and that arrangements for funding would not have been put in place.

I say that, as I know, I think it was last year, last fall, the centre was set up and had a budget of about $20,000 then and I un derstood that there was to be another $40,000 coming from the government. But that was since last fall. What efforts have been made to raise funds in the community to help finance the expenses of this centre? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I understand that, although they get a grant of 45,000 from us, their total budget is 49,000; so they must have raised some money in the communit y, about 4,000, I suppose. But I'm not aware of their specific fund-raising activities.

I think they wanted to get established to show what service they could be to the commun ity, the amount of UIC monies they could increase in Brandon and so on; and, having done that, they would be in a position to seek out funds in support from other agencies. I know they've made a presentation to the Brandon City Council which suppor ted them and I kn ow they're ma king presentations to other organizations. So I hope they will be finding additional funds in the future. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I was a member of the City Council when one Mr. Pimlott came before us.

Is that the approach the Minister is talking about? HON. L. EVANS: I believe that may be. I'm not sure when they went. I was advised that they did make a prese ntation, so that may very well ... MR. J. McCRAE: I can say, Mr. Chairman, that the support given by the council of the City of Brandon can be measured in some ways, but certainly not by way of any money. I don't think that any money was passed between the city and the Unemployed Help Centre. Would it be the board of the centre that chooses the director of it? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, the board selected the . MR. J.

McCRAE: Would this be the time to ask the Min ister about the Winnipeg Unemployed Help Centre? HON. L. EVANS: Sure. MR. J. McCRAE: I would like to ask him about its budget and how much the government funds the centre in Winnip eg? HON. L. EVANS: This amount for the Winn ipeg Community Unemployed Help Centre is $62,000, and I unders tand they received $63,000 in 19 86 -has been allocated from the United Way of Winnipeg. MR. J. McCRAE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, perhaps the Minister can tell me whether there are other agencies doing this same kind of activity in Winnipeg, because it's unlike me, of course, to speak for Winnipeg. I usually speak for Brandon, but Winnipeg must sur ely have a few more unemployed people than there are in Brandon. It appears they are getting about $22,000 more from the government in Winnipeg and I wonder how that can be rationalized in the department, that that small amount really can be spent in Winnip eg on the same type of program that we have in Brandon. HON. L.

EVANS: I could only say what the facts are and that is they've got a budget of $1 25,000 in Winnipeg 2813

Monday, 11 August, 1986 and they have several staff. I'm not sure whether they are getting additional funding from other agencies such as the Core Area Initiative. I do know there are a lot of union organizations and union offices in Winnipeg, I think, who help their members with u:c as well. So, I suspect there is more general assistance being provided for potential U.I. claims, Unem ployment claimants in Winnipeg compared to Brandon. But there are many union offices in the city that I suppose help their people.

But, while there is general employment counselling and so on, which is quite important, the key function is to assist with unemployment insurance claims and one task there is for the staff to become conversant with all the regulations. You know, there are reams and reams of regulations and documents to be familiar with and so on and to work on behalf of the client or would-be claimant of the unemployment insurance system. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, we have union offices in Brandon too and in other centres which could provide this service.

The question has certainly been raised in Brandon and perhaps elsewhere that this is very little more than a straight duplication of the services provided by the Canadian Emplo yment and Imm ig ration Commission. The point has been made over and over again that these help centres do nothing more than provide that same service. I wonder what response the Min ister has to that? HON. L. EVANS: I don't know whether the staff has a figure, but I believe the centre did provide an estimate of the dollar amount of unemployment insurance claims that they secured for their clients.

There is a figure around - a fairly large figure I think -of monies that they were able to secure on behalf of the unemp loyment insur ance claima nts tha t mi ght not have come otherwise, because of their efforts. MR. J. McCRAE: Has the Min ister consid ered approaching the Federal Government to ask them for a federal grant to help with the centre, since they're taking so much work away from the federal offices? HON. L. EVANS: No, I haven't considered that, Mr. Chairman. I don't think we're taking work away.

What we're doing is providing with the cooperation of the Brandon Labour Council, and other organizations who are on the board I guess in Brandon, we're supporting a service which advocates on behalf of an unem ployment insurance claimant, just as we have a service which the Manitoba Government funds with regard to the Workers Compensation Board.

We have Workers Compensation advocates; there's one in Brandon and there are several elsewhere in the province, where we assist people who are trying to get their file straig htened out with the Workers Compensation Board, who are maybe not very happy with some of the answers they're getting from the board itself. So the Workers Compensation advocacy offices work on behalf of those people, and in a similar way, these unemployment help centres work on behalf of would-be unemployment insurance claimants. Also I'm reminded, we fund a welfare advocate organization as well, the anti-poverty organization. MR. J.

McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'm just curious I guess. Who approached whom on this? Was it the - first I should back up and ask -which centre opened first? Where did the idea for these centres originate? HON . L. EVANS: Mr. Chairma n , it origi nated in Winnipeg. In regard to the Brandon one, we were appr oached by the Brandon and District Labour Council. MR. J. McCRAE: I recall at the lime, Mr. Chairman, as Mr.

Pimlott made his presentation to City Council, sitting and listening to him and thinking that it won't be very long before we have an election coming and we've already been hearing the Member for Brandon East telling us about how unemployment was coming down and was about second lowest in this whole count ry; and now we have this type of thing set up. It just seems ironic to me that we would be setting up employment help centres at a time of decreasing unemp loyment. HON. L.

EVANS: Well it may be ironic, but regrettably, there are many people out there who are potential unemp loyment insurance claimants, and if we can help them, I think we should. MRS. C. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, just to the Minis ter. I suppose this was, from what I hear, set up because of some demons trated need, but it seems to me that unem ployment insurance is a federal jurisdiction.

Perhaps this department could have gone to the Federal Government, if there were demons trated problems collecting unemp loyment insurance and said, look, this is your program, do something about it so that these people get some help; ins tead of asking the provincial taxpayers to pay money to help with a federal program. I get calls quite often from people having problems with unemployment insurance. I'm sure every MP gets dozens of them, but I refer them to the MP. Their offices , to my knowledge, have straightened out a great many of these. I think that's where the problems should go, is to the federal people.

It's their program. If there's something wrong with it, tell them about it, ins tead of setting up special programs to help these people and taking Manitoba taxpayers' money to do so. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, hopefully, through the efforts of these two centres, we will obtain in Manitoba more unemployment insurance payments than we would otherwise. As a matter of fact, my understanding is Manitobans collectively pay more into unemployment insur ance funds than we get back in payments from UIC, which is rather interesting . . . MR. J. McCRAE: We've got a low unemployment rate. HON. L. EVANS: Yes.

So I'm not complaining about that, but I think we have an obligation to get as many dollars as we can. I would say, if you would sit down and look at some of the technical questions they get into, some that an MP and his staff may not even have time or the expertise for it because they're flooded, as we all know, with all kinds of queries and problems - but there is a matter of getting technical expertise of 2814

Monday, 11 August, 1986 all these regulations and I've seen the binders. I was in the Winnipeg office recently and there are stacks of binders filled with regulations and it becomes a very detailed matter. It's almost sort of a su b-category of labour law. MRS. C. OLESON: Well I don't doubt that they are of assistance to the people who are contacting them. I'm not taking away from their usefulness, but it did cross my mind that perhaps if there are problems with the Federal Government prog ram , then the Federal Government should step in and get something done about it.

Who appoints the members of the board to these unemployment help centres? HON. L. EVANS: They are independent agencies. They exist on their own, we don't appoint any board members. MRS. C. OLESON: Why does this not appear in the annual report? At least if it did, I didn't see it. HON. L. EVANS: I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some reference. There should be, if there isn't. MRS. C. OLESON: There may be. I haven't fine-tooth combed it. I think we can pass that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(1 )-pass; 3.(a)(2)-pass. 3.(

b) Employment Development and Youth Services -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: I note, with some interest, that under Employment Programs, No. 3, there's a reduction in funding. I was surprised since the Min ister -that's one of his main topics of conversat ion, what we're doing for unem ployment and the programs, particularly for youths. So I want some explanation of why there is $1 84,900 reduction? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, like many departments, we've had to trim our sails in certain places and try to get by with a bit less sometimes.

In this area, we made a decision to eliminate the Northern Student Summer Emplo yment Service -sorry, Northern Summer Education Program -all I've got are initials here. That's about the amount, that pretty well takes care of the difference between these two years. It was a saving of 19 0.9 thousand which is a little more than the difference shown here, so that's one prog ram which was eliminated. MRS. C. OLESON: Well then does the Northern Affairs Department, does it have a program for Northern Youth that might take the place of this? HON. L.

EVANS: This was a special campi ng-type of experience operated out of Frontier Collegiate in Cranberry Portage. There were 200 children who came there for the summer and had arts and crafts, camping, canoeing, swimming and so forth. Last year, it involved hiring eight Northern youth to be counsellors and training and so on. So it was decided that this was one that could go. There are other programs that we have in Northern Manitoba. We have many programs, but we made a decision to save some money by elimi nating this particular program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, employment programs proposed expenditures are down here, yet Salaries seem to have inc reased under this line by about $58,000.00. Could the Min ister tell us, is there a difference in staff years here under Emp loyment Development and Youth Services? HON. L. EVANS: That increase in Salaries, this $58,600, that is strictly merit increases and that type of thing, miscellaneous salary adjustments, increments, general salary increases. I don't believe there are any additional staff years in that category, no. MR. J. McCRAE: Well, I just make the point, Mr.

Chairman, that here we have the same number of people getting their salary inc reases and benefits increased and so on and yet, for the programs themselves, there is this cut in the amount. So we have the same num ber of people delivering less program, it appears, and it seems that the emphasis the government's been making on youth unemployment is not being backed up by concrete proposals here in the Estimates. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the staff are involved in running some other major programs, and that is carried on.

As I was explaining to the Member for Gladstone, the only reduction, the only cut was the specific Northern Summer Education Program, which didn't really require any staffing necessari ly on our part. I think the monies that we saved for summer counsellors that we hired. That's equivalent to 7.18 SY's. That covered the staffing required to run this program. These were temporary staff required to run this Northern Education Summer Education Program, not only counsellors, but maintenance staff, kitchen help and so on.

I think we're looking at about 33 people, but it translates into 7.18 � staff. � But all the other programs were kept, so really there wasn't much reduction in terms of direct work for this

section as such. It still has, among other things, the entire government STEP Program, the Student Temporary Employment Program. It runs the Manitoba Youth Job Centres, and we have volunteers in the public service. So those are all large programs that are being admin istered. MRS. C. OLESON: In the Youth Year Project, has that wound down completely or do these Estimates reflect anything to do with Youth Year? HON. L. EVANS: That year was a one-time effort. It is not reflected in here. We are considering some of the recommendations from IVY.

You'll recall that it finished with a large congress at the University of Ma nitoba, and ther e were a numb er of reco mm enda tions. One that we' re look in g at is establishing a Youth Secretariat, but that would not be reflected in here. 2815

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MRS. C. OLESON: The Youth Business Start Program, I noticed in an Order-in-Council in November of'85 some funding going toward that. Is that going to be an ongoing program, or was that just continued for one year? HON. L. EVANS: That program was funded under the Manitoba Jobs Fund. We are winding it down in our dep artment, and trans ferring it as such to the Department of Business Development. MRS. C. OLESON: How many busi nesses were started under the program? HON. L. EVANS: I under stand about 70, Mr. Chairman. MRS. C. OLESON: 70?

Are they all still in business, or have there been any problems that caused some of them to have to go out of business? HON. L. EVANS: I under stand there are 64 active still. MRS. C. OLESON: When a business that was started in this way with, I believe, it was a $4,000 grant, did that grant have to be refunded if they didn't stay in business any length of time? HON. L. EVANS: No, there wasn't that requirement, Mr.

Chairman, but I would adv ise tha t, wi th th e assistance of an advisory commit tee, including some businesspeople, I believe did a fairly thorough job of screening the young people before they were accepted. When they were accepted, of course, they had to take a bit of a training course, had to accept a business adviser and so on. So this accounts for the relatively high success ratio. At any rate, the monies were paid out once we were satisfied that they knew what they were doing and had some ability and passed all these tests. The monies were paid out. MRS. C.

OLESON: Your figures that you gave me though indica ted that six were not in business anymore. Did those six then repay their $4,000 startup, or was that asked of them? HON. L. EVANS: It's my understanding it was a grant Mr. Chairman, we haven't experienced any payback, but to get this assistance they had to agree to stay in bus iness at least six months. MRS. C. OLESON: The Counselling Assistance for Small Enterprises, is this group in this department? They were the ones apparently who did the advising and coordinating of the Youth Busine ss Start. Are they in this department? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, that program is a federal program. MRS. C. OLESON: But they assisted this startup of the Youth Busine ss Start Program. The Member for Springfield is here and had some qu estions, if you could entertain them now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I was just going to get to that when you finished the line of questioning on this section. Are you finished? MRS. C. OLESON: I think I'm finished with that, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, 2.(b)(1) ... MRS. C. OLESON: Just a moment. Ther e are still lots of programs under this, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, do you want to hold on 2.(

b) then, and deal with it. The Member for Springfield had questions under 2.(d), was it? MR. G. ROCH: Yes, I just had a couple of brief questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: On the Child Income Program? MRS. C. OLESON: No, the 55-Plus. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh okay, 2.(c). MR. G. ROCH: 2.(c), I guess it would go under 2.(c)(3). MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. The Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was just wondering, are recipients of social allowance other than provincial eligible for the 55-Plus Program? HON. L. EVANS: Sorry, I didn't hear the question. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Are people receiving social allowance eligible for a supplement under the 55-Plus Program? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, they're eligible, but the monies are deducted, so there's really no point in them applying. MR. G. ROCH: But under

Section (d), it says that if you're receiving social allowance payments, check the box "yes" and indi cate the source -provincial, city, municipal or federal. However, it says that only provincial social allowance recipients receiving the 55-Plus supplement will have their social allowance benefits reduced by an equal amount. Why does it only specify provincial? Does that mean if it's from another source, it will not be deducted? HON. L. EVANS: That's because we run the provincial program; social allowances is our program. MR. G. ROCH: Are you saying then that the others are not necessarily being deducted? HON.

L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, it's up to the muni cipalities to decide whether they want to deduct it or not. We don't have any information as to whether any of those municip alities are deducting it. MR. G. ROCH: What is the rationale behind these deductions, seeing as the whole purpose of the program is to supplement the income of those 55 and over who are earning under $8,000-odd a year? 2816

Monday, 11 August, 1986 HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, actually who we're trying to get at in this particular program happen to be people who are, let's say, among the working poor, in some cases. They do have a bit of income, but they're really darn poor, so we're trying to supplement them and regrettably, a great percentage of them are women; so we're helping a lot of older women who can 't get full-time work or can't make much money and yet they're not on welfare; so we're giving the working poor a bit of a boost.

If we simply said, look, if you're on welfare you can get it and top it up, we would have screams of complaints from all the other welfare recipients. At least , that's our opinion. I may be wrong, but it's our opinion that the other welfare recipients in the province would criticize us for being discriminatory in that respect. MR. G. ROCH: But aren't the working poor under 55 making the same complaints , that maybe they're being discriminated against? HON. L. EVANS: I guess you have to cut off some place. MR. G.

ROCH: I realize that, because I know of some cases where there are people 55 and over who, because of circumstances, are on social assistance and they seem to feel that - like a particular lady who's only making less than $3,000 a year including all the benefits - she just can't understand why, being in dire straits, that she cannot qualify, where someone else who can be making up to $8,000 a year will qualify . HON. L. EVANS: This program is indeed an income supplement program . We're attempting to supplement a pretty small income, usually; so that is the intent of that, just as CRISP.

It's the same idea with the Child Related Income Support Program ; it's meant to supplement a fairly low income situation . The welfare program , the social allowance program has a different thrust. We're talking about people who have nothing, virtually , and what we are doing for them is providing, hopefully, sufficient monies for their basic needs, their basic food, clothing , shelter, personal needs and so on. It's a basic support of people who are really destitute, so that's another category, virtually, altogether . What we're trying to aim at here is this group that we've been told are in some need.

They do have sources of income, relatively low, particularly women; and it was felt that it was justifiable to increase the amoun t as we have done , doubling it, and of course putting it on an index now, as of July 1, for the 55-Plus . MR. G. ROCH: It just seems that there are some , like you said, on social assistance who have nothing . It seems kind of unfair that because they have less, they are destitute, that they are not entitled to an income supplement . Would you care to comment on that? HON. L. EVANS: I just mention, Mr.

Chairman, that we've got in these Estimates about $150 million going to these people over here who have nothing, and we're trying to provide for their basic food , shelter, clothing, housing, etc . There it is, $150 million. What we've got here is a relatively small amount , about $7.4 million supplementing an income of the 2817 working poor, another group , and if you could think of it in that way. MR. G. ROCH: I understand what you're trying to say, but if you're a person in dire straits, you have trouble understanding that.

If that person is making $5,000 to $6,000 , the working poor to get an income supplement , but another person is making $2,000 or $3,000, the same age, because of circumstances, they used to be working, is not entitled , they just don't understand that. HON. L. EVANS: I am sure the individuals find it difficult to accept and understand, but this is not a new decision; this is a decision that's been in place for 10 years or more . Under the Manitoba Supplement for Pensioners it was the same approach , a smaller amount, but it was the same approach. MR. G.

ROCH: But the CRISP program - correct me if I'm wrong , but I believe, for example , single mothers on social assistance are eligible for the CRISP Program. HON. L. EVANS: It's the same thing for the 55-Plus . They 're eligible, but it will be deducted from their social allowances, so they're not any further ahead. There is a particular group , I might add, Mr. Chairman , who are on supplementary welfare. They get a little bit, and by applying for 55-Plus , they don 't need any more welfare.

In fact , they may be better off, so that these are people who just get a very small amount of marginal welfare to bring them up to the basic need level and the same thing is true of CRISP. So there are some people then who have left or will be leaving welfare now and just getting by on their income plus the 55-Plus or with some CRISP money. MR. G. ROCH: Okay, because the situation that I'm familiar with or situations, they are working, receiving assistance, but I know they are eligible for CRISP. But you're saying in the case of 55-Plus , it could work under the same principle? HON. L.

EVANS : The same principles apply to CRISP and to 55-Plus. MR. G. ROCH: That clarifies some. It's not clarified in the booklet though . That's all the questions I have, except for maybe is the department constantly reviewing these progra ms to try and resolve any inequities such as these which come up, because there 's an awful lot of money being spent and it's just that I know we'll never achieve the ideal system , but there are some no doubt who abuse the system; but on the other hand there are some who are in bona fide dire straits who just seem to feel insecure? HON. L. EVANS: I agree with the member.

We'll never get to the perfect situation , I guess , but this is a big step. We've more than doubled the money in terms of total spending, from $3.3 million to $7.4 million. For most people , it's a doubling of the amount of money under the 55-Plus and now it's going to be indexed. We also, as I indicated earlier, removed the pension requirement. No longer will you have to - you see

Monday, 11 August, 1986 previously under the supplement before, you had to obtain 50 percent or more of your income from pension sour ces. We've elimin ated that. That's caused thousands more people to be eligible. So I think we've taken a big step forward. I'm not going to say for one second that it's perfect, that it's adequate. It could be better. It could be more. It could be more generous but given the financial situation we're in, this is quite an improvement. MR. G.

ROCH: I'd just like to make a comment that it's unfortunate, in the case of people who, maybe not necessarily the working poor but by no means rich, a lady becomes a widow and then because of reasons of health ends up on social assistance and then cannot qualify for an income supplement. Yet all things being normal, that is her husband living, her keeping on living a normal life, she would have been eligible, but because of health reasons, she's not eligible. She's actually worse off now than she would have been had she been able to work. She can't comprehend it and neither can I.

I just hope that somehow, somewhere along the line, the twain shall meet. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, if the member could give me some of the specifics of this case, we could certainly look into it and review it to see whether everything has been done that can be done. I'll certainly und ertake to do that if the member could give me the lady's or the indi vidual's name and some of the information, and then we could certainly pursue that. MR. G. ROCH: I could do that at a later date. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: We can return to item 3.(b)-the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C.

OLESON: The Careerstart Program, is it the same level of funding this year as it was last? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr . Chairman. MRS. C. OLESON: How many people applied this year and how many jobs were funded? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we estimate well over 4,000. Roughly 4,300 applications were received. This was equivalent to 8,300 positions. MRS. C. OLESON: That was the number of jobs that were actually funded, not just the applications? HON. L. EVANS: That's right. No, those were the applications. The approvals, in terms of positions approved, is just slig htly over 6,000. MRS. C.

OLESON: What percentage of those were in the City of Winnipeg and what percentage were in agriculture? HON. L. EVANS: The information I have is that we have 43.6 percent hired in Winnipeg; 46. 7 percent in six southern regions; and 9.6 percent in five northern regions. Winn ipe g has about 60 percent of the 2818 popula tion. It obtained about 44 percent of the application approvals. In terms of agriculture, we approved this year 657 positions for the agricultural sector. Just as a matter of interest, of those agricultural employers who applied, 77 percent of the positions were approved. MRS. C.

OLESON: Is that an inc rease then that went to Agriculture, over last year? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. Last year, I understand, there were 57 4 compared to 657 this year. MRS. C. OLESON: How long does the funding last for each job applied for? What's the minimum, or maximum? HON. L. EVANS: The average employment is 12 weeks. The maximum is 16 weeks and the average is 12 and that's a full working week. MRS. C. OLESON: Last year we had some discussion over abuse of the system, that people somehow got around the rules and had people in fictitious jobs. The Mi nister said at that time he had a safety net in place.

Is that working or is there any indi cation of problems with it? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, our technique is to sample a percentage of them; you can't go to all of them. So we take a 10 percent random sample and we monitor those. That process is still under way and there's very little abuse, generally I think. If we know of something, of course we investigate it right away. We could get the odd phone call or a letter of complaint. One thing that we have done this year is to disallow employers from hiring direct members of their own family. MRS. C.

OLESON: During the election, the Premier, I believe it was, promis ed a Ma nitoba Katimivak Program. Do we find it anywhere in the line in these Estimates? HON. L. EVANS: Again, Mr. Chairman, I believe the funding would come out of the Jobs Fund. But we are in the process of developing a Manitoba version of Katimivak, a Manitoba Youth Corps Program, and hopefully it will be under way early next year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Is it the Min ister's department that is developing this program? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. J.

McCRAE: The Min ister will recall there were allegations about sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll in the Katimivak movement. Is the department keeping those allegations in mind when it's designing this mini­ Katimivak program? HON. L. EVANS: I want to keep all the criticisms in mind and build on the successes.

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MR. J. McCRAE: Did the Min ister say we'll see the beginning of that program next summer? HON. L. EVANS: Hopefully it will be under way early next year. I'm not suggesting it will follow the Katimavik model as you know it. There are many options we can pursue and we are considering. It may be that we would want to come up with a program of two, three or four components gi ving people options so it wou ldn't necessarily be pure Katimavik styled or modelled program.

Part of it could involve young people moving around the province for work experience and part of it could be in di viduals being transferred to di fferent job opportunities or career opportunities or just work experiences of a different kind on a one-to-one basis -housing the individuals with families for instance -or it could be groups of young people who might work in their own community or within say a 20-mile radius so they'd never leave home. So there are different combinations we are looking at. MR. J.

McCRAE: Was the Minis ter consulted by the First Minis ter about this program at the time of the announcement? I hint a slight bit of embarrassment on the part of the Minis ter here because the program's demise met with a fair amount of, I would say approval, across the country and of course there were small pockets of dissent that we heard about from those people most directly involved, but it struck me at the time the promise was made that it was very much like the oil price promise that we got from the Premier; one of those foolish promises that are made in haste during an election campaign.

Is that one of the options the Minister is considering as well; just giving up on the idea and forgetting about it? HON. L. EVANS: No, we are actively working on it and we intend to consult with a lot of youth organizations before we finally put it into shape. I would say, just as a matter of inte rest for the member, the Katimavik still exists as a non-profit organization. It's been scaled down quite a bit but it still exists as a non-profit organization. I believe the Federal Government turned over all the assets to that organization; to that non-profit group.

But we are actively pursuing this and hopefully early next year we will have a Manitoba version of a youth corps in place. MR. J.

McCRAE: If the government is going to insist on going forward with this, I would jus t offer a suggestion that Manitoba is very much an agricultural province and I wonder if the Katimavik or Manito bavik Program, or whatever it's going to be called, will have an emphasis on farm living because one editorial I find in the Country Guide from March of 1986 suggests that people involved in a program that would put young people on a farm which would give them -what does it say here -long hour s, low pay, un comfortable conditions, heavy resp onsibil ity.

Co ntact with a businessman struggling to keep his head above water will teach them far more about life than Katimavik ever could or did. I suggest to the Min ister he keep the agricultural aspect in mind when he's designing this program. HON. L. EVANS: I assure the honourable members we'll have an open mind and we welcome all suggestions. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1) -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C.

OLESON: One criticism that I heard about Katimavik was that it had the potential of - as these youths travelled from community to community - it took away some of the jobs the local young people in the commun ity would have had otherwise and tha t's something I think the Mini ster should bear in mind in designing this program, because there is little enough in the rural communities, few enough jobs as it is without creating a youth corps say that would come in and take the jobs tha t were already there. So tha t's something the Mini ster should keep in mind. HON. L.

EVANS: I'll most certainly keep that in mind , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1) -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Several mo re program s, Mr . Chairman. The STEP Program, how many applications were for the STEP Program this year and how many were hired? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, D. Scott: Mr. Min ister. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the 19 86-87 STEP Program received 700 project submissions. We ended up funding 415 of them involving 810 positions and tha t empl oyed 900 students - tha t incl ude s replacements, that's why it's a little bigger -so it's 900.

That's more or less the same as last year; last year was 898. So the program is more or less the same dimension as last year. If the member wants I could give her some of the figures on average earnings and so on if she would like. MRS. C. OLESON: That might be helpful but what's the overall level of funding also and how many weeks work? HON. L. EVANS: The overall level of funding, Mr. Chairman, is 2.249 million and the average job duration was 12 weeks. So it's 900 students employed on average of 12 weeks each. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone further questions? MRS. C.

OLESON: Does that reflect any difference from last year's level of funding and job numbers to any degree? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, it's the same as last year. MRS. C. OLESON: The Manitoba Jobs and Training Program, what is the funding for this program? HON. L. EVANS: That program is funded out of the Jobs Fund and it is approximately the same as last 2819

Monday, 11 August, 1986 year as well. Even though the youth unemployment rate was reduced, it's approximately the same as last year. MRS. C. OLESON: Does this program go on all during the year? Can an employer apply at any time to have a person to hire or is it just annou nced and given a window once in awhile? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, this was an ongoing program with no specific deadline; however, I should point out that we have now concluded this cycle and a new cycle will begin in the fall. But this particular cycle is now concluded but when the cycle was on there was no deadline as the member was asking.

MRS. C. OLESON: He could apply at any time. HON. L. EVANS: You could apply at any time. MRS. C. OLESON : Does the Min ister have any information about the jobs created? For instance, do most of the jobs continue well after the program part of it has ended? In other words, are you creating permanent jobs of this? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, that was the intent of the program, particularly with the private employers. They were asked to declare that they were going to make their best efforts to. We did follow it up and we found there was a fairly good retention rate.

The business positions, we found there was a retention rate of 71. 5 percent. So on checking some weeks, eight weeks after the program was over, we found over 70 percent were still retained by the business. It was smaller for the non-profit organizations because they are not in the same position but even they retained a fair num ber after the program ended. MRS. C. OLESON: Manitoba Graduates in Business, what's the funding level of that program? HON. L. EVANS: The Manitoba Graduates in Busi ness this year is $700,000.00. This is a reduction from last year. This program is now in the process of being phased out.

MRS. C. OLESON: What number has applied for this and what are the number of graduates now working under the program? HON. L. EVANS: There were 15 8 positions approved in 19 85-86 and they break down into a variety of areas. I can give you some indication. Of the 158, 134 are now active and that 134 breaks down as follows: 51 in engineering; 20 in science; 26 in product development and design; 2 in international trade; 1 in production operations and management; 12 in marketing; 14 in finance; 6 in busine ss adminis tration; and 2 other. MRS. C.

OLESON: When this program was first initiated, it was only in one field. I can't at this precise moment remember what field, but it's open to all different fields now is it for the different graduates? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, it was science and engineering. It was broadened because there was a demand. We consulted with the business community and they felt there was a demand in these other categories, so they expanded it and changed the name of the program. MRS. C. OLESON: Is this proving to have a good job retention?

Are people staying with the companies they initially start with or is it that type of a program? Am I mistaken in my impression? HON. L. EVANS: No, it's a fairly good program in terms of retention because the employer has to put a lot of money into this as well and it's a two-year period. The reten tion, to answer your question specifical ly, 78 percent of the employees were retained in permanent positions. As a matter of fact, 91 percent of that 78 percent reported they had received promotion and/or pay inc reases. MRS. C. OLESON: The Job Access for Young Adults, is this through the Job Strategy Funding?

I believe you did say it was, and is it a pilot project? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, it's a pilot project inasmuch as this is a new experience for us. If it's successful, we'd like to carry it on, but it is a pilot project and we'll have to assess it a few months down the line. MRS. C. OLESON: How does it differ from the Jobs In Training Program? Is it a duplication? I need some explanation on the program, obviously, by the look of the Member for lnkster who is shaking his head at me. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Couldn't pos sibl y be duplication. HON. L.

EVANS: The Ma nitoba Jobs in Training Program is a major program of wage subsidy funding of private and non-profit employers. The employers apply to us. If they are accepted, we provide a wage subsidy under different terms and conditions. There are thousands of people under that at any one time. The Job Access for Young Adults zeros in on one specific group, usually young adults between 16 and 24 years of age who have less than Grade 12 education. They are then brought into a classroom situation.

They get accredited classroom in struction and work experienc e in one of th ree areas: ind ustrial manufacturing, business skills or commercial food services. This pilot project is centred at the Red River Communi ty Col lege and/or the South Winni peg Technical Centre. The work experience is of course at various locations with various kinds of employers. So it is a very specific program aimed at the structurally unemployed; the young people who have problems, social problems and so on, and they're having difficulty in schools and so on. We're trying to get them in the regular workforce.

Whereas the Jobs in Training Program is very all pervasive, it's applicable to any employer who can hire someone to do that particular job. It's not aimed at any particular group. MRS. C. OLESON: So part of it is training and part of it is employment -am I correct - and this will be a 2820

Monday, 11 August, 1986 continuing program? It's just in its infancy now, but hopefully it will be a continuing program? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I can't say at the present time. We'll have to evaluate it in a number of months to see how successful we've been. MRS. C. OLESON: What numb ers are we looking at in people who are in this program at the present time? HON. L. EVANS: We took in 30 young adults in November'85, and another 30 in January of '86.

So '86-87, we expect therefore 60 young adults in the program and 20 will be in commercial food services, 20 unde r business skills and 20 unde r ind ustrial manufacturing. We have 50 employers participating and so it's fairly widespread. MRS. C. OLESON: What is the provincial funding in this and what's the federal funding under the Canadian Jobs Strategy? HON. L. EVANS: My understanding is that 50 percent is recoverable from the Federal Government. MRS. C. OLESON: What's the funding that's allocated to this program though? HON. L. EVANS: The request is $561, 800.00.

That includes salaries, training allowances, weigh subsidies, constructional costs and admin istration and it involves two staff years. MRS. C. OLESON: There's a program listed in a booklet called "Taking Stock" which was done as a youth year project. Anyway, it's a Job Opportunity Service. Does this tie in with any of these programs we've been discussing? HON. L. EVA NS: This was done by one of the organizations that was funded under the IVY Program and it was as you say "Taking Stock." It was an inventory of provincial youth programs and services. So that group undertook that particular project.

I don't have a copy. MRS. C. OLESON: That wasn't my question though, but listed in it is a Job Opportunity Service. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, this is an office in Winnip eg where we register young people for jobs. It's a matter of providing information. Generally, it's the central registry and referral and placement of students in summer positions in Provincial Government departments, Crown corporations, and Commissions. Referrals are made to positions funded under various provincial employment programs, including Careerstart and Jobs in Training Program, for students and unem ployed Manitobans in this area.

There is some assistance provided, too, in terms of resume writi ng, job search information, and self­ marketing techniques. MRS. C. OLESON: Also listed in that same book, "Taking Stock ," is a Core Area Training and Employment Agenc y. Is it something that's included in this department? HON. L. EVANS: No, Mr. Chairman. MRS. C. OLESON: Not at all. Okay. The Community Assets Program, Mr. Chairman, is this program going to be announced again this year or is it not operating this year? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, I believe the Minister of Finance ind icated in his Budget Speech that the program would not be operat ing in future. The government is looking at a replacement program that might operate under the Depar tment of Cu lture, Heritage and Recreation, and funded by Lotteries. So MCAP, as such, will not be continued as we know it. MRS. C. OLESON: The Min ister, when I asked about the Order for Return, said the information was available. It is, to a certain extent, but not broken down. There are many press releases on it but they're not specific.

They list it by regions and except for one or two, September in 19 85, where the Min ister announced specific programs for the Westman area and each project was listed with its amount and how many jobs it would create and so forth. But there wasn't anything that I could find forthcoming in press releases for the rest of the area and it's very difficult to pinpoint just exactly where this money is going. When it says Winnipeg, nine projects, well, Winnipeg is a large city. Interlake 6; Southeast 8. But where, and what they were for, of course, remains a mystery to most of us.

That's one reason I particularly wanted the Order for Return, to pinpoint just exactly where this money was going. It gave us the feeling last fall, when we heard announcements, that it certainly was being targeted very carefully and it become a rather political, to put it mildly, event. It seemed that some areas were getting funds

whereas others were not. It certainly made one feel, if one had not any other indication, that an election was in the offing. I would recommend that the Minis ter, if he's not having this program, recommend to the Min ister of Cultural Affairs, who will possibly be having it, that perhaps there should be some way found, if you're having a program of this nature, to have it distrib uted evenly throughout the province. It becomes rather a political football if it's used in the way in which it appears to me it has been used in the past.

There must be some way of looking at a project - I've seen projects, have had copies sent to me of projects that I would find very difficult to turn down, where people had done an awful lot of work. People are encouraged -press releases go out saying the money is available, and people put in a great deal of time and energy and spend possi bly sometimes a considerable amount of money preparing these. They do, I know, have a feeling that there is very little point in even applying, but they do go through the motions and then get turned down. Then they hear of projects with not near as much input being funded.

It becomes, I know in my constituen cy, it's not looked at too kindly because there were not many projects funded in my constitu en cy. Sp eaking from that point, from a 2821

Monday, 11 August, 1986 constituency point of view, I've seen a lot of work go for nought. I hope the Min ister, when he speaks to the Min ister of Cultural Affairs, who possibly will have this, reminds her that it would be a good idea to have it evenly distributed somehow, perhaps the decision being made in the municipalities, as it used to be at one time. They know their needs better than anyone else. HON. L. EVANS: The member will get the Order for Return and get that detailed information. I would simply say this. The difficulty is that we had $8 million available and we had requests totalling $25 million.

There was just no way that you're going to say yes to everybody. It's an absolute impossibil ity. A lot of factors were taken into account: The type of project; the amount of work that would be created; the amount of involvement; the amount of contribution by the organization. Then there was some division, for monies for municipalities as such, and sometimes some towns seemed to get a little bit more. I think Killarney got a lot of money but they had a lot of good projects, a firehall, some community stuff, and so on.

You'll find that in some suburban areas of Winnipeg, such as the member beside me, his riding, I think there was nothing because the suburban areas of Winnipeg don't have many projects and there weren't very many applications. In fact, there were some areas in Winnip eg where there were no applications; there was just no community spirit or whatever. At any rate, it's a very difficult thing. The type of program that is being worked on now will have some changes in it. I believe, among other things, the attempt is to have longer-term projects so people can do some more planning.

There won't be this rush to get all the applications in, get the approvals, and so on. The thrust won't be job creation in the winter, as much as it will be assisting communit y, cultural, and heritage groups. It will be a different type of focus and there will be an opportunity for more long­ term planning by the organizations and the commun ities involved. Personally, I would have liked to say yes to everybody. It's good to be a hero with everybody. Unfortun ately, there's just not that -as I said, for every dollar we had, we were requested for $3.00 and we just didn't have it. MRS. C.

OLESON: I think it's back to the age-old thing where you have to advertise a program and, of course, it builds up the expectation in people that all they have to do is ask and they shall receive and, of course, that isn't the case. So the MLA gets on the firing line and is asked why can we not produc e these programs when the government said they were available. What's the average length of a job created by the Community Assets Program? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised we haven't done an averaging of that type. We did try to get the work weeks per project and that would be their best estimate.

Remember many of these projects were small, you know you might have a carpenter there for two weeks, and a plumber for three days, and an electrician for a day-and-a-half, and so on; so the contr actors and the community organizations were supposed to put in these estimates. I don't know whether the average is really that much, but we did have a tally of the total work weeks funded, and then, I suppose, you could divide that by the number of projects and get something; but I don't know how meaningful that is a figure. MRS. C.

OLESON: Well I wonder too, because I'd see a project which, no doubt, is a very worthwhile project for $2,050 to repair a roof, for a total cost of the project being over $4,000, creating three jobs; three jobs for how long? I mean the press release sounded as if three people worked solidly for a year repairing a roof and, of course, we all know that isn't the case. But when you say it's three jobs, it's probably three jobs for one day. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, I agree with the member. You have to put the number in a time dimension, so work weeks is probably the better calculation. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)-pass? -the Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: One comment for the Min ister. Recently I referred a problem to one of the Min ister's offices in Brandon, and they kindly took on the case and I'm glad for that. But I'm wondering when we're designing programs in the future, if we could keep in mind those working poor that the Minister referred to earlier. In one case and others that I know of, there are people who are very hard workers.

They don't like to move from job to job; they stay in a low-paying job and then their life starts to develop and they begin to have children and they need more money than they're getting, and what they're doing is keeping thems elves down by staying in low paying, not very satisfying work, but they're not qualified to really move ahead very fast.

I'm wondering if the Min ister has any programs or is thinking about developing any programs to help people in such a way that they can be trained without having to give up a monthly income, so they can continue to feed their families, train for a better position without having to take time off work. Because, as you know, there's a time lag between the time that you leave work and the time you start collecting benefits, if you leave under certain circums tances.

The case I'm talking about, the person wants to better his qualifications so that he can move up the ladder in the type of work that he's doing, just to do a higher level of that work and to make more money, and to keep his family in a better standard of living. Now obviously, the attention will be given to those who don't have jobs at all, and, of course, we all support that, but there are thousands and thousands of people in Manitoba who are employed all their lives in jobs like the ones the Minister spoke of a few minutes ago.

Really this is a province of opportunity and I wonder if the Min ister could direct his attention to the design of such a program, or if there's one in existence now that could be amended or changed around to help people in that kind of situation? I'd like to see something like that. 2822

Monday, 11 August, 1986 HON. L. EVANS: Yes, I gather what the member is talking about, Mr. Chairman, is a program whereby we provide some income to a person so that person could still obtain income while attending a college or technical institute or something for skill upgrading. MR. J. McCRAE: The problem with it, Mr. Chairman, is the voluntariness of leaving the job. I guess there's programs not available to a person who leaves his job voluntarily, but when he leaves to better his life, it seems to me we should try to do something for people like that. HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, I thought that there was some opportunity -well I guess maybe more for people who are sort of technologically dis placed who can, through Unemp loyment Insu rance, Canada Emplo yment go to communi ty colleges like Assiniboine College or Red River and receive some benefits while being trained. But we don't have anything specific along the lines that the member is suggesting right at the moment. Our major program has been the Manitoba Jobs in Training Program, which has been a multi-million dollar program. The last cycle was roughly $8 million, it's a lot of money.

The thrust there is to enable people to be hired by employers and to be trained on the job. There were two categories. It was direct employment for 20 weeks, so we would cost-share up to $4 an hour with the employer, plus fringe benefits we would pay for 20 weeks of direct employment.

But if the employer had a job where there would be training, where he or she, the employer, would provide a training to that person, and, of course, had to promise to keep the person on after the wage subsidy ran out, we would subsidi ze them for 30 weeks, which is about seven months roughly, for training on the job, so that was our big push to help people. So if you did find somebody that you speak of, of course you have to get an employer who is ready to hire that indi vidual, but there were many thousands of people under that program that did receive training on the job. MR. J.

McCRAE: Well I'm sure many thousands of people were helped that way, but what I'm talking about here is institutionalized training that is required in order to get a ticket of one kind or another. In this particular case, a particular kind of driver's licence is required for a higher paying job, and that's the thrust of my problem and my constituent's problem. HON. L. EVANS: All I can say, Mr. Chairman, we'll take the member's concerns into consideration and I can appreciate somebody in that position, particularly if they have family responsibilities.

At the moment we don't have anything, but we'll certainly take it under advisement. MR. J. McCRAE: I thank the Min ister for that. MRS. C. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, before we leave this, I refer again to this Order-in-Council that I asked about. According to our discussion to do with the Receiver of Lake Winnipe gosis Development Corporation the payment of $10 0,000, I wonder could the Min ister explain why his department is paying this? HON. L. EVANS: As I recall it, Mr. Chairman, this was because of an unemployment situation in a particular locality; namely, the Lake Winnip egosis area, the town of Winnipegosis.

There was a considerable amount of unemployment and in cooperation with the Manitoba Development Corporation, we assisted for a period of time in providing some work in that specific area. I could get more details for the member. I don't have any at my fingertips, but that was a special employment problem.

We will be undertaking others from time to time where there's specific problems created by, say an indus try that's closed down in a town where it is devastating for that little commun ity, and I think we're going to see more of that occur in the future where, for whatever reason or other, there's some unemployment.

There is a problem on Lake Winnip egosis now with fishermen who will not be able to fish for awhile because of problems with the fish ery, and we're working with the Department of Natural Resou rces there to provide some special employment opportunities, to assist those fishermen who may be losing some income; hopefully, being employed in useful community projects. If the member had some specific questions, I could undertake to get the answers. MRS. C. OLESON: Well I take it from this Order-in­ Council that the company had gone into receivership. Did this help to keep it open for some time? Is it closed now?

Did it pay wages to these people just to keep them empl oyed for a little while longer? Wha t happened ? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'll have to get a report on that for the member, and certainly give her that. MRS. C. OLESON: It's Order-in-Council No. 851, which is dated July 24, 1985, if I could have some more in formation on it. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we'll get a report on what happened and all the circumstances for the member. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, we can pass that

section now. MR. DEPUTY CH AIRMAN: Okay, 3.( b)(1) - pass; 3.(b)(2)-pass; 3.(b)(3)-pass. 3.(c)(1) -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. The Immigrant Access Service, what is the funding for that and how many staff admi nister it? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, this year, 1986-87, the program costs involve $1 72,800 in salaries, and $74,500 for operating with seven staff years involved. MRS. C. OLESON: And the Newcomer Service Support Program, could you give me the funding and staff of that? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the Newcomer Services Support Program is a relatively small program. It 2823

Monday, 11 August, 1986 involves providing $25,000 worth of grants in the year. Staff in the branch generally spend a bit of time on it, but it's not a big enough program obviously to have MRS. C. OLESON: Specific staff, okay. The Manitoba Work Experience for Professionally and Technically Trained Newcomers, what's the funding and staff for that program? HON. L. EVANS: I believe the member asked about the Recognition Project, the Manitoba Work Experience for Professionally and Technically Trained Newcomers. We have, in '86-87, one staff year, and the total program in salary costs is $1 50,000.00. MRS. C.

OLESON: How many newcomers are in the program? HON. L. EVANS: In 1986-87, we anticipa te 12 new positions will be created. Last year, there were 22 positions approved and, so far this year, we have 12 -I'm sorry, revised , 15. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Mini ster explain the necessity of this program? As I under stand it, people who immigrate need to have a job before they are allowed to immigrate. So perhaps the Min ister could outline why this program is necessary and who it helps. HON. L.

EVANS: While people may come and have a job in Canada, you'll find many immigrants are really employed below their level of training skills. So you might have a doctor or an engineer who may be doing some very menial job. What this does is to provide an opportunity for someone who's been professionally trained elsewhere to obtain work experience in his or her profession in Manitoba. So we provide a subsidy , as indicated, to the employer to encourage the employer to hire these persons for a maximum period of 52 weeks. It's a year-long program.

Generally, they are people who already have some working knowledge of English or French . They must be a graduate of a field of study which is compatible with our objectives. They certainly must have completed post-second ary education outside of Canada, and whose credentials are not formally recognized in Canada. So what happens is that someone who is virtually underemployed has an opportunity to get the relevant experience and to get his or her credentials recognized. MRS. C. OLESON: Now these three programs that I have just asked about, are they correlated together or are they run separately?

Are they all run out of the same area of the department? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, they're all run out of the Immigration and Settlement Branch. MRS. C. OLESON: But are they a correlated program that they work hand-in-hand, or are they completely separate? HON. L. EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, certainly there's coordination, but they appeal to different groups; they're aimed at different groups. The Project Recognition is dealing with a group of professionals who need some upgrading or relevant work experience,

whereas the Imm igrant Access Service usually deals with people who are recent newcomers, who have great problems with the language and the institutions and the values and so on, where they need a lot of assistance in virtually tapping into the existing health and education and social service programs that we have. So we tend to deal with a different category of immigrants. So those are two major different thrusts. MRS. C. OLESON: I think we can pass that area, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(1)-p ass; 3.(c)(2)-pass. 3.(

d) Regional Emp loyment Services,

(1) Southern Emp loyment Resources -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: What is the staff component for this, and what does this department adminis ter? For instance, do they administer the Careerstart and the Jobs in Training and that sort of thing? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the Regional Emp loyment Services, Southern section, has 18 staff. They indeed, as the field personnel, do deliver the various programs of the department, such as the member referred to, New Careers plus Jobs in Training Program and Careerstart.

Also, they were involved in the assessment and contractual negotiations with the MCAP Program and they were involved in helping the Manitoba Youth Job Centres in their establishment and of course they were very much involved in International Youth Year. MRS. C. OLESON: Under 2. the Northern Development Agreement , th ere is no appr opriation for tha t department. Could the Min ister tell us what funds are being expended there? HON. L.

EVANS: There is inde ed money spent but the member, if she looks closely, will see that it's recovered under the Canada-Manitoba Northern Employment Agreement - sorry, the Northern Development Agreement - I stand corrected, under the Northern Development Agreement. MRS. C. OLESON: So there's no provincial money per se? HON. L. EVANS: Th ere is provincial mone y, but Northern Affairs holds the money, transferred to this department. MRS. C. OLESON: So have there been any new compon ents to this program this year? Any changes? HON. L. EVANS: No, Mr.

Chairman, it's essentially the same program as we delivered last year and previous years. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. We can pass that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.- pass; 1. (a)-pass; 1. (b)-pass; 2.(a), (b), (

c) and (d)-pass. (3)-pass? 2824

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MRS. C. OLESON:

(3) Human Resources Opportunity Program, is that where we are? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MRS. C. OLESON: Perhaps the Mi nister could just outline for us what all pr ograms are un der this appportionment. HON. L. EVANS: The Human Resources Opportunity Program is probably one of the key programs that we have to zero in on the structurally unemployed and we have in the program as such, apart from the Human Resource Centres, we have 27 staff in the program providing assistance to people to obtain employment. They are very much zeroing in on the welfare recipients to help them obtain useful employment.

I think we made some reference to them earlier today, Mr. Chairman. MRS. C. OLESON: The Canadian Job Strategy Funds then dovetailing in with these programs, I noticed in the annual report there!s a listing of programs delivered which include the Driver Education Program. Could the Minister explain why Driver Education would be in this department? HON. L.

EVANS: Just a correction, there are no Canadian Job Strategy mo ni es in to the Human Resources Opportunity Program per se; but under the Human Resource Opportunity Centres, we did apply for the Single Parent Access Program and we did get funded for that particular project. Having said that, the Hu man Resource Opportunity Centres are funded generally under CAP on a 50-50 basis. That is with regard to wages spent. The member asked specifically about a Driver Training Program. It's a rather unique situa tion. There is no Department of Highway's personnel or anyone offering driver training education.

So our Human Resources Opportunity Centre has taken it on as a project, so it does provide some useful employment -I'm sorry, in Dauphin. Did I say Brandon? In Dauphin -it's just for the clients in the centre and for corrections. MRS. C. OLESON: I just was curious because in most areas the schools offer Driver Ed Training and perhaps maybe the Dauphin School Division doesn't, I don't know. So that may be the reason. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the Dauphin School System does for young people but not for adults. MRS. c.

OLESON: In the booklet I referred to earlier called "Taking Stock," there's information about an emphasis on youth through the Human Resou rces Opportunity Centre Summer Student Program. How many participants in that and how much is the funding for that program? HON. L. EVANS: You can't say we don't have programs. We've got so many we can't keep track of them. There are approximately 76 people in the Summer Student Program, but only in two centres: one in Gimli and one in The Pas; and it's funded federally and provincially. MRS. C.

OLESON: The Single Parent Job Access Program, how many are participating in that program and what's the funding for that? HON. L EVANS: I believe there are 344 people. As I indicated, there are 344 people taking it at different times throughout the year. MRS. C. OLESON: I asked also what was the funding, but, also, where is it available? HON. L.

EVANS: The program is available, this is another inno vative program which we'd like to have - I'm saying this for the benefit of all - along this line and certainly it's up to us to apply under the Canadian Job Strategy to get some more programs and indeed we are working on this. But the overall budget relates to the City of Winnip eg and West Brandon. The total is approximately 1. 2 million and it's shared with the Federal Government. Of that 1. 2 million, we get a contribution from Employment and Immigration amounting to $795,000.00. MRS. C. OLESON: I think we can pass that item then. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)-pass; 3.(b)-pass; 3.(c)-pass; 3.(d)-pass. I'd just like to mention for information for voting purposes, the time is after 10:00 p.m. I assume you want to continue? MRS. C. OLESON: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item (

e) Emplo yment Training-the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: The Labour Market Programs, would the Mini ster please explain this to us and what all it includes? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, this branch is the one that deals with these specific problems of adjustment in specific areas, we mentioned like Winnipe gosis before. This would be done here. People who are also affected by technological change, we've been discussing with the Federal Government the question of older worker adjustment. There's a problem there. All these types of problems are dealt with by this staff.

This is the area where the Workplace Salvation Centre is established. They have some input into it, not the only input in to it. They partici pated with other departments in other adjustment situations such as Kim berley Clarke, INCO, Burns, Sherritt Gordon and so on. MRS. C. OLESON: Is this a new Needs Program? HON. L. EVANS: No, Mr. Chairman. MRS. C. OLESON: The Selkirk Training Plant, how many people are trained there, and what's the cost per student? HON. L. EVANS: The number of trainees accepted during the year 19 85-86, was 99. We planned 100 for 2825

Monday, 11 August, 1986 this year. Of those, 40 went on to employment. We expect a couple will go on to further training. Was there another question? MRS. C. OLESON: What's the cost per student of operating that? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we estimate about $40 per day per student. MRS. C. OLESON: Now in to No. (3), the In ter­ Governmental Relations . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you want to pass (1) and (2)? MRS. C. OLESON: We can pass them all together. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, sure. Item (3). MRS. C. OLESON: They're all of (e), I mean.

In the report of the Manitoba Women's Directorate, there's a reference to input from this department in the report on Labour Force Strategy for Women in Manitoba. Would that come under this line? If so, what dollars are spent and what is the input from this department into this report? HON. L. EVANS: That subject wouldn't necessarily be under this Branch. These people do a lot of negotiating with the Federal Government, and there is what's called a Labour Market Needs Comm ittee which is coded. This is a federal-provincial comm ittee looking at the needs within the province for different categories of labour.

So this is one thing. Annually we jointly with the Department of Employment and Immi gration, develop annual training plans, including the interests of other departments. We're involved with monitoring the Canadian Jobs Strategy as it applies to Manitoba. This is the area where we negotiate for The National Training Act under the Canadian Job s. This is the area tha t we'r e concerned about getting sufficient monies to maintain the level of training at the community colleges.

But we do the negotiations with our count erparts in the Federal Government Department of Emplo yment and Immigration, which then allo cates it under the overall umbrella of the Canadian Jobs Strategy. MRS. C. OLESON: When I initially asked about the report to the Women 's Directorate, in connection with the Women's Directorate, where did you say that would be involved? HON. L. EVANS: That would be in our Research and Planning Branch. Did the member have a specific question? MRS. C. OLESON: I just wondered how much money was involved and what input from this department. HON. L.

EVANS: We don't have any dollar amount that we expended in the department that we can identify, but we certainly assisted in that effort. MRS. C. OLESON: Back to the discussion, you were mentioning negotiations with the Federal Government? 2826 Are there ever any negotiations with other provinces to share services for employment? HON. L. EVANS: Not that I'm aware of, Mr. Chairman. We do meet with the other provinces. Some time this fall, there will be a meeting of provincial Ministers of Emplo yment and Im migrati on, hopeful ly, with the Federal Min ister, but we exchange ideas, exchange program information.

There is some correspondence. But to my knowledge, I don't believe there are any provinces, forgetting about Manitoba, that approach employment or unemployment problems on a shared basis. We share information, but not money. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Very briefly, Mr. Chairman, on Item (3), how is it that, in this budget of $12 3,900, just 3,500 of it comes from the province? How do you figure that? Ho w do you negotiate some thing like that? - (I nterjection) - Inter-Governmental Relations, the budget is $12 3,900, and Recoverable from Canada is $1 20,400 - (Int erjection) - ...

A MEMBER: Good negotiations. The next Mini ster of Finance. Wouldn't you want him working on your behalf? MR. J. McCRAE: Very shrewd. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, in admin istrating the National Training Agreement, the Federal Government recognizes that there is a cost and they do pick up the salary costs plus 50 percent of operations, and I guess they do that for every province. So it's a good deal. MR. J. McCRAE: It just looked very generous, Mr. Chairman, on the part of the Federal Government and I thought I'd better put a plug in there. HON. L. EVANS: It's been going on for years. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the Northern Development Agreement, again no allocation of funds but that, I take it, is because of the federal agreement? HON. L. EVANS: That's right. There is provincial money, Mr. Chairman, but it all comes through Northern Affairs. MRS. C. OLESON: I see. Is the Limestone Training Project included in this, any allocation of funds for the training, or is all through the Department of Mines and Energy? HON. L. EVANS: I believe it's under the Manitoba Jobs Fund. MRS. C.

OLESON: The New Career South Program, how has this program changed? It's listed as north and south now. Is that a change in thrust? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, there's been no change the last couple of years.

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MRS. C. OLESON: Who does it serve in the south? HON. L. EVANS: More or less the same clientele. People who are disadvantaged and yet have some potential and can be trained on the job and in the classroom setting.

I just might add that in the program, in'8 5-86, to give the member a idea of what kind of training occurred, we trained people for these kinds of jobs: Child and Family Service workers; budget final and financial ana lysts; rad io broa dcasters; museum technician; drafting technician; medical interpreters; social welfare adminis trators; chemical dependency workers; retail store managers, and so on. The trainees were involved in a large number of commun ities: Wi nnip eg, Pine Falls, Bi rch River , Waterhen, Selkirk, Crane River, Rossburn, Portage la Prairie, Scanterbury, Ste. Rose du Lac.

We cooperated with many organizations, who provided the experience and on-the-job tra ining, in cluding organi zations like the Nativ e Plan Organization, St. Boniface Hospital, the Main Street Project, the X-Kalay Foundation, Child and Family Services of Winnpeg West, Northern Association of Comm unity Councils, Salvation Army, Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba, and so on. There's quite a variety of organizations. It's certainly a variety of occupations. MRS. C. OLESON: This is geared toward Native people primarily, is it not? HON. L. EVANS: 81 percent in'8 5-86 are estimated to be of Native ancest ry.

Some of them could be Metis people. MRS. C. OLESON: How many people were trained through this? HON. L. EVANS: The average number of trainees planned for '86-87 would be 204. MR. CHAIRMAN: No. (6) -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: No.

(6) Stevenson Aviation, how many were trained through that program and are there any changes to the program this year? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe there are any substantial changes in the program. Under Technical Training, we have 24 under apprenticeship training, and 44 under technical training. That's in'85- 86. In terms of training days, the'85-86 training days were 1, 636. In '86-87, we estimate it to rise to 2, 10 4. Some are apprentices and some are in tech nic al training. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J.

McCRAE: I have one question on the training at Stevenson Aviation and Technical Training Centre. It appears that there's a good jump in the salary level and no new staff years. Is th ere some special arrangement there or some reclassifications, or what happened? HON. L. EVANS: The increase in salaries was $22,900, and represents additional costs of sundry adjustments and primarily the annual merit increases, so there was no change in the staff years. MR. J.

McCRAE: No change in staff years but, just very quick ly, it looks like, if you took the five people and gave them their fair share, you're talking about an incr ease of $4,000 in one year, over $4,000.00. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'm also advised that we didn't pay full-year costs in all cases last year, so that explains that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)(1 )(

a) to (e)(6)(

b) inclusive-p ass. Resolution 56: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13, 269,10 0 for Emplo yment Services and Economic Securit y, Employment Services for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 87- pass. Item 4. Manitoba Bureau of Statistics -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Have there been any changes in this department, changes in operations, at all? HON. L. EVANS: As you can see, there's a slight decrease in spending but essentially there has been no major change.

There's some repriorization and there's always new reports to work on and so on, but essentially it's the same as last year. MRS. C. OLESON: I just would mention that with regard to statistics, when we hear the statistics of employment given, it's interesting to note - I believe there was an

article in the "Brandon Sun" last summer or fall sometime, about a study done by some people, and it turned out that there was 25 percent unemployment in the City of Brandon. It immediately begged some questions and, of course, they were using a different set of criteria for doing their study than what the Statistics Department does. If you're unemployed, according to Statistics Canada, you must tell an official that you're unemployed. This study was done, and I un derstand it's being done in other communities.

I was at a meeting the other night where it was reported that a certain community had 25 percent to 27 percent unemployment. So it shows, of course, that it depends how you use and apply and find your statistics.

They were using a base that if you didn't have a job, then you were unemployed, so we can't always go by exactly what Statistics Canada tells us when we're talking about un empl oyed ; and when we're talking about unemployment programs and unemployment, it doesn't do the people who are unemp loyed any good to hear some of these grandiose statistics, because they are still just as unem ployed as they were before the announcement was made. So I just remind the Mini ster that it isn't always as rosy as we think it is when we look at a list of statistics.

There are many people in the rural commun ities and others that are still looking for work and maybe have a job but are under-employed, and there's always that 2827

Monday, 11 August, 1986 to take into consi deration too. I don't think I have anymore questions on the Statistics Department; my colleague may have some. HON. l. EVANS: Just a quick comment on th at particular surv ey, without being critical of the su rvey, the point is that the only way you can compare the results of that survey is to use the same

definitions for the rest of the country or some other areas that you want to compare, otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges. The figures we've used and most provinces use are the official figures from Statistics Canada, the labour force survey; and indeed, there must have been some differences in

definitions of unemployed, as the member alluded to. But that makes that survey not very helpful because unless you do the same survey across the province or across the count ry, how are you going to make adequate comparisons? MRS. C. OLESON: I agree that you need the same

definitions, but I think the purpose of that study and the purpose of the study that I'm thinking of that's ongoing now is to use it for the potential of a commun ity to generate more jobs, or the needs for people, let's say, are thinking of putting an industry or trying to get some employment programs into a community and they do a survey and you phone them or ask them to send in questionnaire on what they are expecting in the line of jobs.

So that's the purpose of it; it's for an entirely different purpose, of course, than the Statistics Canada job statistics, so it does serve a purpose in that a community is aware of wha t the potential is for employment in their commun ity. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, what kinds of statistics does the Manitoba Bureau provide to the departments? Is it a matter of providing statistics on a custom-job basis or just how does that work? I know the Manitoba Bureau looks after registrat ions of births and deaths and marriages - (Interjection) - That's Vital Statistics?

Okay, what kinds of service does this bureau provide? HON. L. EVANS: I can give the members an overview. For the current year, these are some of the major projects: to continue and finally develop a set of economic accounts for the province. This is the provincial product. You've heard of GNP for Canada, and so on. We are now fairly well to the point where we have a set of provincial accounts, income and expenditure, and also included under that, we'll be developing a leading indicator for the province, quarterly persona l in come est ima tes, and related ma cro­ economic statistics.

That is being developed and eventually these will be released once we're confident that the num bers are fairly reliable. This is based on Statistics Canada information but it's adjusted so that we do have tables for Manitoba. We do population projections for the eight economic regions of the province. The bureau has completed a sourcing directory for the Limestone project, where it provided a computerized directory identifying the supply capabilities of Manitoba busin esses, so that we can encourage people who purchase for the Limestone project to purchase from Manitoba businesses.

This is 2828 a large computerized sourcing directory that's provided, which is available for busi nesses to use. We develop and are developing small area data development. Statistics Canada does not provide a lot of information on small areas of this province, and we are using a technique whereby we can break down this information for small areas. It'll be useful for some of these communi ties that the Member for Gladstone was speaking about. We're using the postal code to break down the province. We're trying to relate the information that we've got using postal codes to provide that detail.

We are developing a computerized register of all active Manitoba businesses and this will be used as a source for Manitoba Government surveys, regional profiles, profiles of busin esses by industry sector and potential clients for government programs. We have and are cooperating with the 19 86 census. They do various analytical reports requested by specific departments. For in stance, Northern Mani toba busi nesses, a statistical profile was conducted. They engaged in a price monitoring survey in December of 19 85 and they provided a report called, "Manitoba Economic Multiplier," it's 19 85.

Then they put out generally, through their information syste m, various kinds of data on the province. The idea is not to duplicate what Statistics Canada is doing. We don't want to duplicate, but we want to use that information and provide it in a form that makes it more useful for Manitobans. MR. J. McCRAE: The (

c) identifies some $79,800 Recoverable From Other Appropriations. Where is that recoverable from? HON. L. EVANS: This will be from other departments where we'll be selling our products. They call it information products, otherwise called statistical reports. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: It's nice to be with you this evening, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'm glad that I came into the Committee Room just a few minutes ago to find this particular Minis ter was di scussing some of the statistical information. Mr.

Chairman, I have before me a report, I believe tabled to all members of the Legislature, dated May 22, 19 86. I'll show it to the Min ister. It's called, "Ma nitoba Economic Statist ics," 19 78 to 19 85 (Provincial Comparisons.) Mr. Chairman, what struck me as rather odd, when I went through this particular compendium of statistics covering some half dozen items, that the government has taken it upon thems elves to arbitrarily group these statistics into two four-year terms. - (I nterjection) - That's right, Mr.

Chairman, and they were grouped arbitrarily, for some reason, into PC years, 1970 to 19 81, and NOP statistics covering the term 1982 to 1985. My question, Mr. Chairman, is with respect to the propriety of government funds being spent on the development of these types of statistics, being grouped into these types of arbitrary groupings. I don't question that the figures themselves can't be released, shouldn't

Monday, 11 August, 1986 be released in a chronological series, but then I question the propriety of government themse lves presenting it as a government document. Mr. Chairman, indeed, we can all do our own analysis; political parties can do their analysis, and group it in any fashion they wish to present to the public. The government felt obliged for some reason to take data of this nature and to break it out, and I question the propriety of it and ask the Min ister to so explain. HON. L. EVANS: I'm not sure, if I could see it. I'm not sure which one that is. MR. C.

MANNESS: I have a num ber of questions written on it. HON. L. EVANS: I'll not look at the questions. MR. C. MANNESS: Go ahead. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, these categories and all that were develo ped by yours truly when we were in Opposition and I produced similar reports to this. I don't know if the member was here at that time, but I produced these kinds of statistics using Stats Canada figures basically along these lines. I believe this was publis hed by -certainly the data origina ted in Stats Canada. My und erstanding is, if I recall properly, that it was reproduced by our caucus. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, why was this then tabled in the House as a government document? HON. L. EVANS: I'm not sure what the occasion was. Was it the discussion of the Budget or the Throne Speech? MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I keep getting these little comments to my left here and I guess I'd have no criticism of it. If it had come forward during the election campaign, indeed, it's a fair way, I suppose, to try and depict certain arguments during election time and it's a political document and I have no difficulty with that. Mr.

Chairman, I ask the Mi nister again, the propriety of tabling a document like this within the House as if it were, and as if government time and employees of government were directing their energies toward breaking out these types of statistics purely for political purposes. Now the Min ister may claim that he does it as his own exercise and I accept that, Mr. Chairman. What I can't accept is the fact that it was laid before the House by he being a Min ister of the government. I ask the Min ister of the propriety of that action. HON. L. EVANS: I think we're maybe in a grey area, Mr. Chairman.

I believe it was during the debate, we had this information. As one who partici pated in the debate, I tabled it as information. The information is reliable. It's free from Stats Canada, anybody can obtain it, it's public information. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, I'd ask the Min ister again whether he compiled this or did staff of the government compile this under his instruction? HON. L.

EVANS: My recollection is -I'll have to check - but my recollection is that - I didn't compile it personally, although I originated that type of series and those kinds of key economic indicators -my recollection is that, and the data is available through the Bureau of Statistics, but origi nates in Stats Canada, but my understanding, as I recall, it was reproduced in the caucus room. But it was a document for debate and there are many documents that are tabled for debate. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not arguing the right of a member to table documents for debate.

I guess I'm questioning, when raw statistics are provided, which have been gleaned from a number of sources, including obviously StatsCan and maybe some provincial sources, although I don't see that in reviewing the tables here. Manitoba Economic Statistics, in themselves being important and of some interest to probably a large cross

section of Manitobans, yet somebody within government spending the time to purposely take these statistics and compile them in groupings reflecting very real political times. I guess I just question the Min ister whether or not he has any concern about the propriety of it and he ind icates to me that he doesn't. So, Mr. Chairman, that was my sole reason for bringing it up. HON. L. EVANS: As I said, there is a grey area and I can point to other documents that had been produced over the years and had been issued to all and sund ry.

For many years, back in the 70's, in the Lyon years, where there were reports tabled and indicated a certain slant on Manitoba's economy . You might say the Government of the Day was trying to produc e a favourable light on what was happening to the retail sector or the manufacturing sector. It's been done for years and I dare say if I had the time I could find them in my files some place. On the same basis, the staff prepared them.

At tha t time, I believe they were produced by either the Department of Indus try and Commerce or Finance or maybe the Bureau, I don't kno w, but they were statistics prepared by the government and they were just released. We didn't criticize. We accepted the information. We might have questioned some of the conclusions, but it was data. MR. C. MANNESS: A final point, Mr. Chairman, I guess I question when I see the various headings throughout, it's called Emplo yment Growth, Rate of Incr ease, Ma nitoba un der the NDP, Manitoba unde r the Cons ervatives '78-81.

I just question how it is that material that supposedly could be taken right to a franking piece, a purely political franking piece, could be so detailed and developed within the department. I question how it is that taxpayers' money can be used by way of department staff, directing their energies and time toward the development of these types of statistics. HON. L. EVANS: As I recall, the thing was reproduced and distribu ted by the caucus staff. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4.(a)-pass; 4.(b)-pass; 4.(c)­ pass. Resolution 57: Resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exce edin g $326,000 for 2829

Monday, 11 August, 1986 Employment Services and Economic Security, Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1987- pass. We now return to Item 1. (

a) Min ister's Salary. The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd just like to thank the Min ister for his answers and remarks to our ques tioning. I think we've had quite a good debate on his Estima tes and covered, I hope, all the programs, the many programs, that are covered by his department. Sometimes it's difficult to see a clear picture when so much of the funding, for instance, of this department is through the Jobs Fund. It's hard to get at quite just what is going on with regard to the programs.

It's hard to get a clear picture of exactly what appropriations the funds are actually spent by this department when some of it is Jobs Fund money and some of it is done in other ways. But I think we've had adequate discussion and I don't think I really have any more points to raise with the Min ister. I'll probably think of some good questions tomorrow and, if they're really good, I'll write him a note and ask him about them or use question period. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1. (a)-pass.

Resolution No. 54: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2,204,200 for Emp loyment Services and Economic Securit y, Admin istration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 87- pass. That concludes the Estimates of the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security. Commi ttee rise. HON. L. EVANS: You didn't give me a chance to thank you for your questions and your debate. MRS. C. OLESON: No, he didn't. It's all the Chairman's fault. SUPPLY - URBAN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Comm ittee please come to order.

We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Urban Affairs. We are now on Item No. 3.(a). The Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The que stion of Plan Winnipeg, we've been through, I guess, almost 10 years of process to get Plan Winnip eg to where it is at the present time. It's been a long and arduous road both in terms of the original tripartite representation and then the refusal by the Federal Government and latterly by the province to continue on with that tripartite agreement. Subs eque ntly, it left the city on its own to continue on to finalization of that plan.

Once finalized, then it was a question of holding public hearings. I happened to, as a member of the Executive Policy Committee, participate in all of the public hearings that were held with the exception of the most recent public 2830 hearing on Plan Winnipeg. We heard the representations of people from all across the city as to their interests and so on.

When the matter was first referred to the Provincial Government as part of the process after Second Reading, the Min ister at that time came forward with a whole series of changes that the NOP Government of the Day wanted to have incorporated into Plan Winnip eg. Those were s\i!)ject to negotiation over a period of time, some three or four years and I think three different Mini sters of Urban Affairs; initially Mr. Kostyra; secondly, the late Mary Beth Dolin; and latterly, the Honourable Monsieur Desjard ins - (In terjection) - He knows, Kostyra, Dolin and Desjardins.

We finally after a great deal of harangue and a great deal of arm-twisting, I suppose, and I think a great deal of common sense as well prevailed with the latter Min ister, Mr. Desjardins, to the point where I think people saw the light and we came to a realistic conclusion save one little area that kind of got off­ track. In any event, with certain amendments, Plan Winnipeg was given absolution, if you will, by the Min ister to have Third Reading, following which certain amendments were introduced to deal with the question of the urban limit line and a couple of other areas.

That public hearing, I believe, was held a month or so ago with the city and, I believe, in probably 75 percent of the cases the amendments were rejected. I'm not sure whether that's been yet before the City Council; I don't believe so. I think it's coming up perhaps this next week in that regard, but in any event, in the event the City of Winnipeg Council, Mr. Chairman, decides to agree with its executive policy com mittee and decides to not pass on the proposed amendments that were advanced for public hearing, what does the Mini ster intend to do in that area with regard to the urban limit line? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. G. DOER: Mr. Chairman, as the honourable member opposite mentioned, my predecessor and the committee from City Council took a three-year problem and brought it to -to use his words -"a realistic conclus ion," a rea listic conclusion the me mbers opposite called very pragmatic.

I agree with that, unfortunately, and it was subject to public hearings which I respect and the members opposite respect and the Honourable Minister of Health respects, but the key is when two parties come to an agreement and unless there's absolute evidence to the contr ary, then it's the responsibility of both parties if they have a "r ealistic conclusio n," to use the Memb er for Charleswood's terms, it's up to both parties to deliver on those conclusions unless there's evidence, public or otherwise, to show there was lack of wisdom in the original preclusion.

As the members opposite are aware, this went to EPC. There were some presentations on the proposals; in some other areas, there were no presentations. EPC, in their wis dom, and again they' re the elected representatives, saw fit to recommend to City Council something contrary to the arrangements the member opposite made with the previous Mi nister to City Council.

Monday, 11 August, 1986 Now City Council has tabled those recommendations and hasn't dealt with them. I'm not sure what form they will come back; the present form, another form or whatever. I can say that if there was absolute public outcry -and I mean strong public, sustained public input on the "realistic conclusion," then we're not insensitive to that. In fact, arising from the hearings, there was some feedback from the department on the Leila North arrangement that unfortunately the land had been stripped or whatever else.

There seemed to be a large public outcry on that agreement, and we were certainly willing to take a look at that or listen to what the city had to say to that based on the public hearings. Unfortuna tely, EPC recommended changes to the "realistic conclusion" that were quite a bit contrary to what the arrangement was the year before. I have suggested to some councillors and the mayor that we are concerned about having a joint-planning process.

I don't want to go back to the days in which we're all - I agree with my predecessor , I don't want to go back to the days where we're just trading letters and not getting anything done. I think the approach both parties took last summer was a sensible one, but the province is responsible for paying for capital costs for schools and operating of schools and there's other issues the city has to pay for in terms of operating. It means that we have to have a balance, and I don't mean an ideological balance, but an intelligent balance of how we develop the city versus the costs and services we have to present.

I have asked that this item be placed on the next joint agenda. I haven't had a chance to discuss it formally with some city councillors. I've discussed it informally with a few, and the Mayor. I think it would be somewhat presumptuous to say what specifically we're going to do before a city council acts, and before we dis cuss it with the joint commi ttee.

I also think, in the long term, that where a body of government has responsi bility, both constitutional, I might add, responsibil ity, but also responsibility for providing ongoing services such as capital costs of schools and operating costs of schools, it should have some joint authority on where those costs are going to be and how they're going to be implemented.

As I say, I thought the former Min ister of Urban Affairs, the Min ister of Health and the commi ttee that was delegated - I understand the Member for Charleswood was on that comm ittee; the Member for Riel was on that commit tee; the Mayor was on that committee; I think Guy Savoie was on that commi ttee, as well - I thought they came up with an intelligent, pragmatic solution to it. I hope we deal with this issue on a pragmatic basis in the future because I don't think it helps the citizens of Winnipeg very much to have two solitudes dealing with this issue.

We believe we have some responsibility in the longer term issues and we should have some hopeful joint authority in this area. MR. J. ERNST: Mr. Chairman, part of the fundamental problem in this whole area of urban and municipal government, is the fact that the Provincial Government, as the Min ister has just said, wants to have a joint planning approach with the City of Winnip eg, for instance; that he wants to have joint control, as it were, over the planning of the City of Winnipeg.

This Mi nis ter doesn't recognize; the Minis ter of Muni cipa l Affairs doesn't recognize the fact that municipal ities have matured in terms of their ability to operate their own plant, or their ability to carry out their own mandate, and that successive provincial governments have failed to recognize that municipalities have matured, matured to a point where they can handle 99.9 percent of the matters thrust upon them in terms of their own legislation. Mr. Chairman, I've had 13 years of experience in city government.

I've had some considerable experience with respect to government outside the City of Winni peg through my association with the Federation of Canadian Munic ipali ties, through my association with the Manitoba Association of Urban Mun icipalities, and through my acquaintanceship with a num ber of people inv olved in municipal governments throughout the province. Let me say this. I have every confidence in the world that those people can carry out an effective job in their municipality because they know what the problems are, Mr.

Chairman, they know full well what the problems are, better, quite frankly, than most of the civil servants associated with tha t area, both in Urban and in Municipal Affairs. They have a very keen understan ding, those municipal officials, of the kind of things that need to be done in their municipality in order to keep it functioning and operating properly. My fellow caucus mem ber from La Verendrye, bein g the Mayor of Steinbach, certainly would know far better than anyone else in this room about the kind of problems that the Town of Steinbach would face and how to deal with them and so on.

The question now is not a matter of control, Mr. Chairman. The que stion is not a matter of superimposing additional admin istration over and above the existing admi nistrations in the municip alities. It is simply a question of funding, and that's the key. Now, the Min ister has ind icated that the province funds the question of capital costs for schooling, and that's fine. But let him argue with the school districts with respect to whether they bus children, whether they build a new school or whatever, but don't let him impose upon munic ip alities the qu estion of plann ing.

In particular, the City of Winnip eg Planning Branch alone is probably -well, it's certainly considerably larger than the Department of Urban Affairs, and that is a lean department in terms of overall city planning compared to other Western Canadian cities. You have some very excellent people, Mr. Chairman, in that department as well tha t ha ve a gr eat expertise and a great understanding of the kind of thing that's necessary to properly plan for orderly contiguous development. The question of urban sprawl has been brought up from time to time.

It's non-existent virtually in the City of Winnipeg, except in areas where it's been allowed through opting out in some cases of the additional zone municipalities. You have opting out take place, Mr. Chairman, in a couple of areas, and that's where you're going to get into the urban spra wl problems in my view. Orderly contiguous de velopment and/or a firm stat ement, not necessarily the opting out of mun icipalities, but a firm statement to th ose municipalities that they're in and they can't opt out. 2831

Monday, 11 August, 1986 That's been another problem that the city had been faced with over a long period of time. We have situations where East St. Paul and West St. Paul have come to the City of Winnipeg with subdivision applications for development, and