Manitoba Hansard — 5 July 1999 (Sitting 54, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-54

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 54- 1:30 p.m., Monday, July 5, 1999 ISSN 0542-5492

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

3843 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, July 5, 1999 The House met at 1:3 0 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): The Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. INTRODUCT ION OF BILLS Bi1141-The Professional Corporations (Various Acts Amendment) Act, 1999 Hon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), that leave be given to introduce Bill 41, The Professional Corporations (Various Acts Amendment) Act, 19 99 (Loi de 19 99 sur les corporations professionnelles (modification de diverses dispositions legislatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. The Administrator, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I am tabling the message from the Administrator. Motion agreed to. BiU 42 - The Community Protection and Liquor Control Amendment Act Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Fin ance (Mr. Gilleshammer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 42, The Community Protection and Liquor Control Amendment Act (Loi sur Ia protection des collectivites et modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia reglementation des alcools), and that the same now be received and read a first time. have here a message from the Administrator indicating that the Administrator recommends the bill to the House, and I would like to table the Administrator's message. Motion agreed to. Bill 44 - The Gaming Control Local Option (VL

T) Act Hon. Shirley Render (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey), that leave be given to introduce Bill 44, The Gaming Control Local Option (VL

T) Act (Loi sur les options locales en matiere de jeu (appar eils de loterie video). The Administrator, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Administrator's message. Motion agreed to. * (1 335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Winnipeg Child and Family Services Temporary Placements-Hotels Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). In June of 19 98, the Premier stated that a system dealing with the care of children needs to put the children's care and services first. This was dealing with the high unacceptable numbers of children in care

3844 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 under the responsibility of the Province of Manitoba through the Winnipeg Child and Family Services branch and the high numbers of kids in hotels. I would like to ask the Premier: has the number of children staying in hotels under the guardianship of the provincial government, through the Child and Family Services branch of Winnipeg, been reduced consistent with the talk of the government last year, or has it gone up? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for the question.

We have been working really aggressively with the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency to try to ensure that hotels are not the first option for children. We have had some success in, at times-and I have to say at times, because it depends on the weather and the circumstances the numbers decline or increase from time to time. I can indicate that the stays in hotels are considerably shorter. When this issue was raised when the problems existed last year, children were staying in hotels for long, extended periods of time.

There always will be need for short-term placement of children if they are being neglected, and there needs to be a safe place for those children. But we are moving aggressively, if hotels are the only option at that point in time, to ensure that children do not stay there for any prolonged period of time. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, it sounded like a recorded announcement of last year. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): why has the number of kids gone up in hotels, from 21 in April of 19 98 to 28 in April of 19 99, per day, a 33 percent increase, after the Premier promised to put the needs of kids first?

Does the Premier not get listened to by his cabinet ministers? Can he explain why this increase has gone up, and what is he doing about it? Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, again, I will indicate that when child ren are in need of being protected because of abuse or neglect, we have to find a safe place to put them. I indicated in my first answer that a year ago there were children who were being lodged in hotels for extended periods of time, up to six months or a year, and that was unacceptable.

What is happening today is that children are still in hotels if there is no other option and they need to be protected, but it is not for extended periods of time. We are working aggressively with the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency to ensure that the appropriate accom modation is found as quickly as possible. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, maybe the safe places could have been foster parents in homes that this government, this Premier, this heartless Premier cut a number of years ago, his short sighted kind of decision making full of rhetoric, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Can the Premier explain why the Winnipeg Child and Family Services budget includes five children per night in hotels, and regrettably they are averaging 28 per evening? The cost is $23 1 per day per child, and they have gone over budget by $200,000 in April alone, $160 ,000 over budget. Surely we can find safer and warmer places for our kids than the Filmon hotel placements of Winnipeg Child and Family Services. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I recall that one of the first challenges that faced us when we took office in 19 88 was the fact that our foster parents were the lowest paid in Canada.

That was a legacy that was left for us by the New Democratic Party, and we significantly increased the funding to the foster parents because they were in dire straits as a result of the New Democratic priorities. That very significant increase put us into a position in which we were better off than we had been left by the New Democratic government, of which he was a part.

But I can say this, that one of the things that he too will recall is that while the New Democrats were in office, because there were so many significant cases of abuse and even death of children in care under the New Democrats, we had to have a review that became known as the Reid-Sigurdson Report to look into why things were going so badly under the New Democrats, in which the Leader of the Opposition was a

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3845 cabinet minister, and of course the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) was a social worker in those days, part of the system. Those are the things that we had to work with. Those were the things that had to be done under New Democrats.

So, if he wants us to go back to the bad old ways that he is an example of, in which children were put at risk by the policies of the New Democrats, in which children were being injured and dying because of the policies of the New Democrats, I tell him the people of this province do not want us to go back to that. * (134 0) Winnipeg Child and Family Services Temporary Placements-Hotels Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): On May 18 of this year Winnipeg Child and Family Services said that placing them in hotels is too much like warehousing them, and it is the agency's responsibility to ensure that these children are receiving essential services. It was agreed it would be beneficial for the board to approach government now to try and advocate for resources to address this issue.

I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services: why is she waiting for the bureaucratic reorganization of the agency instead of putting the needs of children first and getting the number of children down who are in temporary placements which we know is up this year against last year? When is she going to put the needs of children ahead of the reorganization of the agency? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question, but I would like to remind him that we do not want to approach our Child and Family Services system like the New Democratic Party in British Columbia has. There are articles in the newspaper that talk about a New Democratic administration in British Columbia and how it is miserably failing the children in that province. The Child Advocate has written damning reports about the care of children there. So we do not want to look to British Columbia and the New Democratic Party for the solutions and the answers.

I have indicated very clearly that the difference between hotel placements for children this year is in fact a significant difference. The stays last year were long-term stays in hotel accommodation. If in fact child ren need to be protected, it is our responsibility to ensure that they are safe and secure and look at a long-range plan. We will continue to put the needs of children first. Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services when she is going to put the needs of children first, given that the number of days in care was 60,964 in April 19 98 and has risen to 62,434 in April 19 99.

When is the minister going to do something, anything proactive to get the number of children in temporary care down and to have the number of children coming into care reduced? What announcements does she have, and why is she waiting for the reorganization when she promised that she was going to do something a year ago? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I wish I could indicate to all honourable friends in this Chamber and to all Manitobans that there was some quick-fix solution to chi ldren needing protection and support through the Child and Family Services system because there is not. And anyone who thinks there might be, like my honourable friend in the kind of question he asks, is burying their head in the sand.

The approach that we have taken as a government is to look at long-term solutions, long-term early intervention solutions that may not impact this year or next, but we know that children who are being born today are having programs put in place today so they will be more loved and nurtured and adapted, ready to go to school and to learn. We know those will have long-term impacts on children and families into the future. But if my honourable friend thinks he can promise a quick fix, I think Manitobans should be very wary. Mr.

Martindale: I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services how she can justif y her department's failure to deal with ware-

3846 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, I9 99 housing children in Manitoba. Instead of talking about a quick fix, she said, a year ago: Just wait until the strategic planning process, and we will take care of that. We are not talking about a quick fix; we are talking about a year's time. The problem is getting worse. What is the minister doing? Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I will indicate that there are no easy answers in the Child and Family Services system. I know that there are many that are committed to working to try to find the answers.

We are going to have to try to ensure that when children do come into care, because they are being abused and neglected-and I do not think my honourable friend wants to blame me or our government for children being abused. We cannot accept that kind of responsibility as a government. What we have to do- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. * ( 13 45) Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Family Services, to complete her response. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

As I was indicating, I think that parental responsibility is certainly the first and foremost issue that we need to look at and attempt to deal with, and that is exactly what we are doing by putting in place programs that work with young parents, with children, that provide early intervention and assessment of every baby at birth to see whether they are born to a family that may be at some risk and put those supports in place so we will not see the kinds of abuse and neglect into the future. All of those things will have a positive impact, and I indicated they are not going to fix things overnight.

We have to continue to work at it. Victoria Park Lodge Closure Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, about a year and a half ago, the government made a decision to close down Levels I and 2 personal care homes, and as a result places like the Odd Fellows, which the previous minister now said was a mistake to close, closed down. The Victoria Park Lodge in Souris is an excellent facility, housing individuals, and the government, by its policy, is choosing to close down those Levels I and 2 care.

I would like to ask the minister: in light of the terrible decision to close down places like the Odd Fellows, in light of the fact that we have difficulty placing people, will the minister commit today to keep Victoria Park Lodge open for the residents that exist there, providing the amenities and the facilities that they provide? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, when it comes to the whole issue of personal care home beds in Manitoba, as the member for Kildonan knows, we have committed to the addition of some 850 new personal care home beds right across our province through not only this I9 99 budget but previous capital budgets in the Department of Health.

When it comes to the issue of personal care home beds in that region of our province, Hartney is acquiring new personal care home beds; Souris is getting an addition of personal care home beds, and I know the RHA in the community is working with that facility, Victoria Park Lodge, in terms of potentially providing something like supportive housing. We are seeing more and more supportive housing projects right across Manitoba, in Winnipeg and outside of Winnipeg, and again, that is meeting a specific need in many communities right across our province. Mr.

Chomiak: Can the minister explain how it is that admissions to Victoria Park Lodge, which had 20 beds occupied, now only has 12, have been closed by the government when there are people waiting in the hospital in Souris to get home care and cannot get home care, when there are people waiting for respite care and cannot get respite care? Again, it is an example of abysmal planning by the government. Mr. Stefanson: Again, Madam Speaker, I do not accept any of the

preamble on that second question from the member for Kildonan. When you look at waiting lists for personal care home beds in our province, they are down significantly right across the province. Here in Winnipeg alone, they are down to a level today of about 50,

whereas if you go back a couple of years

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 47 ago, they were up at 150 or 200. That again is because we are building more personal care home beds, we are opening more personal care home beds. To meet some of the immediate needs, we are putting in place interim personal care home beds, and we are dedicating significant resources for that very important service. As I have said, to date, we are committed to 850 net new personal care home beds in the province of Manitoba. The actual number is well over a thousand that will be put in place because some beds are in fact being replaced in Manitoba.

So, again, in that quadrant of the province, in that region of the province, there are new personal care home bed additions in Souris, in Hartney and in other regions of our province to meet the needs of people in our province for that service. * (1 350 ) Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain to me what he would say or what I should say to the 95-year-old resident of Victoria Park Lodge who I spoke to on Saturday or the 85- year-old resident who has lived there for years, who have recovered their health there, who are uncertain where they are going, who think this policy is wrong, who do not want to shift their home because of some grand government scheme? What would he say to those people who live there productively and now have to move because of their hard-headed policy that is wrong? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I remind the member, when we work on the capital projects across the province, we not only do it as a government, we work with communities and we work with the regional health authorities in terms of what are the priorities to meet the needs of those regions of our province. And again, I think that is an issue that members opposite have supported in the past, the concept of regional ization, the concept of that regional outlook for the services that are being provided, the opportunity for communities and individuals to have input into the capital plans.

So the capital plan that we bring forward as a government is done with the input, with the consultation, with the prioritizing of the RHAs right across Manitoba when it comes to meeting our needs. That is why today we are building a net, new 850 personal care home beds right across the province of Manitoba. We are providing supportive housing in many areas of the province of Manitoba, all to meet the needs of our aging population. Brandon Regional Health Centre Maintenance/Equipment Repairs Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health.

Between 9:30 and 10 a.m. last Friday, the Brandon general hospital had an air conditioning valve that broke, causing water to flood two offices on the fourth floor and then leaked into a wall in the ceiling of the emergency room. The place has since been cleaned up and the air conditioning system has been repaired.

My question to the minister is: will the minister admit that this deficiency in this old building could have caused a more serious problem, such as the collapse of the emergency room ceiling and resulted in certain injuries and other dire consequences as a result of the neglect by this government of the Brandon general hospital for the past 11 years? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Again, I do not agree with the

preamble from the member for Brandon East. He comes asking a hypothetical question-wondering what his objective is by asking that kind of a hypothetical question. He knows the commitment that this government has made to the Brandon Regional Health Centre on a number of fronts, many millions of dollars dedicated to the whole redesign, reconfiguration of that very important facility, not only to Brandon but to that entire region of the province of Manitoba. Obviously, the health authority in Brandon was able to take action to deal with that particular need, and that is exactly what they should be doing.

But, again, we made commitments on a number of projects. I have reminded the member for Brandon East of those projects. I am certainly prepared to pull them out again and remind him of all of the commitments we have made to health care in Brandon and that community, and

3848 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 particularly to the Brandon Regional Health Centre. Mr. L. Evans: Well, Madam Speaker, will the minister acknowledge that we can have additional serious problems because of the age of the building, and that renovations and needed repairs were put off by the administration because that administration had been promised a new building over a decade ago? It has been put of f and put off. They have put the repairs aside, and now this is what we are getting: serious problems. Mr. Stefanson: I agree with no such thing.

Again, when we have buildings right across our province, on occasion buildings are going to have some maintenance issues that have to be dealt with. Brandon has done just that. The RHA dealt with that issue, and they put the repairs in place. I remind the member for Brandon East that, just in the last few years alone, there is $65 million in capital commitments to the city of Br andon and their health care facilities, most significantly the Brandon Regional Health Centre that has a commitment of approximately $40 million for a major capital project, a major redevelopment for that facility.

Those are commitments that this govern ment is making. Those are commitments for putting the money in place to provide those very important services for the people of Brandon and the surrounding area. I would hope that the member for Brandon East would support that kind of commitment from our government. * (1 355) Mr. L. Evans: Madam Speaker, three or four years ago, the honourable former Minister of Health had a beautiful model of a building, and we were promised it then, and you are still promising. That is all we have had is promises. Nothing but promises, wilting promises. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honour able member for Brandon East was recognized for a final supplementary question. Mr. L. Evans: Will the minister acknowledge and recognize that the Brandon general hospital has experienced a rash of structural problems? This is not the first. We have had elevators that have not been working, there have been leaky windows, and many other problems. Madam Speaker, my question to the minister is: will this minister put up additional dollars right now for badly needed repairs so the place will not fall apart while we are waiting for a new building? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I assure the member for Brandon East that the Brandon Regional Health Centre is in good hands, and will continue to be in a good state of repair.

I remind the member for Brandon East just some examples of what has happened at the Brandon Regional Health Centre: $4.4 million completed for a new 25-bed adult acute psychiatric unit; $3.2 million completed for the Western Child and Adolescent Treatment Centre; $13 5,000 for roof repairs; $665,000 for a hemodialysis unit, completed in August of '96; the scheduled opening of the energy centre, $1 4.7 million to open in October of this year; currently, $3 8 million in design for the Brandon Regional Health Centre.

That is just a sample of the signif icant capital commitments that our government has made to the Brandon Regional Health Centre, to the city of Brandon and the people of that part of our province. Garment Indust ry Employment Opportunities Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. The garment industry over the years has gone through a chronic shortage of skilled workforce. In fact, it is highlighted to the extent that we have a prominent businessman who is suggesting that he might have to have production now moved over, at least in part, to Mexico.

These are jobs that are in fact potentially being lost, and I would argue we have lost jobs because of our inability to get the skilled workforce necessary to fill them. My question to the Premier is: what is the Premier prepared to do to ensure that those jobs within the garment industry are in fact going to be filled so that we are not going to permanently lose more and more jobs?

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3849 Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank my honourable friend for the question. He may know that the individual that he has referenced, Mr. Silver, is chairman of our Economic Innovation and Technology Council for the provincial government, and we have had numerous discussions with him in ensuring that we were working towards just precisely the solution of that problem. As he may well know, the growth of the fashion industry in our province over the last couple of decades has been largely fuelled by having skilled immigrants come and take the jobs. Mr.

Silver has been a great advocate of our initiatives to urge the federal government to open up immigration for skilled people who could fill many of the skill shortages that have been listed in stories very recently, even over the last few days in the front pages of our newspapers. The reality is that the federal government is setting immigration policy. He knows full well because he fought, I know, his own federal Liberal government against the head tax.

He fought them for setting quotas on immigration and limiting the immigrants to our country because the policy is set based on the strong feelings of people in Vancouver and Toronto and not for the needs of a province like Manitoba who can use more skilled immigrants. I urge him to join with us to perhaps even propose a joint resolution in this House to urge Ottawa to open up immigration in our province so that we can get more skilled workers to fill the needs of a burgeoning, growing economy. * (1 400) Mr.

Lamoureux: Is the Premier prepared then to reconvene a committee which we had established a few years back to deal with the garment worker shortage in order to try to work with Ottawa in resolving this very serious problem? Mr. Filmon: The member probably knows that the shortages are not just in the area of the garment industry or the fashion industry. Indeed, the list of skilled people that was contained in, I guess, a front page

article today says accountants, composite technicians, computer-controlled machine tool operators, computer programmers, computer systems analysts, early childhood educators, daycare managers, electrical technicians and technolo gists, electrical and electronics engineers, heavy equipment managers, hog bam managers, machinists, mechanical engineers, sheet metal workers, tool and die makers, welders. Really, the tremendous opportunities that are here in this province because of our growing, burgeoning economy require us, I believe, to have a program that opens up our doors to many more immigrants.

We need the co-operation, the support and the commitment of the federal Liberal government, and he as a Liberal in this Legislature I think is well positioned to be a bridge between the views of those in this Legislature. I believe that members opposite would join us, members of the New Democratic Party, in a joint resolution to urge Ottawa to change its perspective on this particular issue. say to him having a committee reconstructed is not the best answer if we do not have Ottawa's attention, and I would urge him to join with us in getting Ottawa's attention on this matter.

Education System Standards Testing Breach-Re port Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): On a different issue, I ask the Minister of Education: will the minister give us equal access to what I have been told the NDP likely have from their friends in Seven Oaks, access to the report so that all members of this Chamber know what is the content of that report? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Educa tion and Training): Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) has not been clear with us as to whether he has been briefed on that report or whether he has actually seen a copy of the report prepared by the Seven Oaks School Division. It would be nice if the Leader of the Opposition would be a little bit more open with this House and with the people of Manitoba about what he knows about what is in that report, such as it is. I am not very happy with the report, to say the least, because, in order to release it, the honourable Leader of the Opposition calls for its

3850 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1999 release, I suspect, knowing full well that there are aspects of this report that tend towards defamation of people's characters and requires that it be very carefully gone over by Freedom of Information people so that we can release something, but unfortunately, in an incomplete form. But again, the Leader of the Opposition has not shared with anyone how much about that report he knows. Simplot Plant- Brandon Explosions Hon.

Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I would like to respond to questions that were raised by the member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) with regard to the Simplot experience in Brandon recently which were taken as notice. I am prepared today to advise this Chamber that Workplace Safety and Health and Mechanical Engineering branches have jointly conducted and completed their investigation and are in the process of finalizing a report on this incident.

I can confirm that repairs and modifi cations to the processing equipment have been completed and inspected by Mechanical Engineering branch inspectors and, bottom line, the plant is back in operation. The department has verified that the desulfurizer feed preheater involved in the incident is safe for use, all safety controls have been tested and proven in the presence of our inspector, and five new gas shutoff valves have been installed, one for each of the burners.

I am told that we have had two mechanical engineers, one chemist and a Ph.D. in metallurgical engineering, plus a number of hygienists, all of whom have been involved in the research and renovations, and the mechanical engineering boiler inspector has also inspected the areas for the repair work. Point of Order Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, on a very serious point of order. The minister responsible for Workplace Safety and Health is giving us vital information affecting the safety of a community of 40,000 people, and the Minister of Environment (Mrs. Mcintosh) keeps on nattering from her seat.

I simply cannot hear the answer, which is very important. I would ask you to call this member to order, and ask her to give us a little decorum in this place. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order. Day after day after day, we hear members opposite making comments from their seats, not putting accurate information forward on the record, and a host of things that invite response.

I would suggest that you advise all honourable members about the need to ensure that members can hear what is going on in the Assembly. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Brandon East, I am not convinced it was only the honourable Minister of Environment who was causing a di sruption. However, I would agree that he did have a legitimate point of order. It was extremely noisy, and I, personally, was experiencing difficulty hearing the honour able Minister of Labour's response. I would ask for the co-operation of all honourable members. * * * Mr.

Radcliffe: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Although a number of members of the Chamber have urged me to start again, I would conclude my response by saying that there has been intensive and far-reaching investigation. There have been significant repairs effected to the plant. The plant is back in operation. I want to assure members opposite that there is in fact no danger at all to either the workers at the Simplot plant at this present time, nor the residents of Brandon East, or for that matter Brandon West. Estey Report Government Position Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, farmers have been facing serious

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 385 1 problems because of the weather over the last while. However, they are facing far more serious long-term problems because of high input costs and increased transportation costs. The study by the Canadian Wheat Board and Canadian Shipowners Association confirms what we have been saying for some time now. That is, farmers are paying far too much in freight costs. In fact, they are paying $224 million annually in costs that they should not be paying.

I would like to ask this government how they can support the implementation of the Estey report without a full costing review that farmers, municipal people and other leaders have been asking for to ensure that the money goes where it should be going, and that is into the farmers' pockets. [interjection] Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I know the member for Roblin-Russell and I are very close on many issues, but this is certainly one as well.

Madam Speaker, as the lead minister on the Estey report, what I find absolutely incredible in the question from the member for Swan River is that here is every provincial government in western Canada, two Conservative and two New Democratic Party governments, struggling to find a way to ensure that we get competition into the grain transportation industry so we can see dollars go back into the pockets of farmers, and members opposite, by way of a resolution to this Assembly, said we should keep the status quo. All the status quo has done has seen the efficiencies go into the hands of the railways.

Madam Speaker, the No. 1 prerequisite of all our prairie governments to be involved in the Estey report was that whatever savings and efficiencies can be found have to go back into the hands of the producers. * (1410 ) Ms. Wowchuk: I would like to ask this minister: is his government going to continue participating in the implementation of the Estey report, given that railways are backing away from their offer to cut the total bill of moving grain, and that railways are reluctant to allow open access, something that farmers and all other groups have been asking for?

Are you going to continue to participate in that process? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, let us remember the Estey report is a federal initiative because most of these issues, if not all, are in federal jurisdiction. What members opposite have said is we should bury our head in the sand and walk away and not be involved in the process to try to steer it in a manner that is most advantageous to Manitoba producers. That is a total abrogation of responsibility. Yet they come to the House now saying: well, we are concerned. Just a few weeks ago in this Chamber, they said we should not be involved.

Madam Speaker, things like open access, things like ensuring that savings find their way into the hands of producers are the reason why we are at the table to fight for those, rather than run away like New Democrats opposite. Ms. Wowc huk: We will see how well this government does in getting money into farmers' pockets, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, given that the savings the railways have realized are because of rail line abandonment and shifting costs to farmers, why is this government not insistent that these savings be passed on to farmers, such as the productive gain sharings which Estey did not recommend, insistence that no more lines be abandoned in this province? Why is this government not insistent that some of those things happen to ensure that money gets into the farmers' pockets? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, for the third time, I tell the member that all three prairie provinces, two Conservative and one New Democrat, have all taken that same position. We have all been at the table, continuing to advance that position in what is a federal process. But let us remember the advice that the New Democratic Party, led by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), gave to this government in a debate in the House a few weeks ago: Walk away from Estey. They brought a resolution to this House saying we should not be involved in the process. Well, how do you influence a federal process if you are not at the

3852 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 table? They propose running away. We propose standing there to fight for fanners in Manitoba. Sherridon, Manitoba Mine Tailings Control Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Energy and Mines. As the minister knows, the I 0-year-old limestone weir that is supposed to contain the copper tailings from the old mine site at Sherridon is collapsing.

Is the minister prepared to put in place remedial work on the weir before tailings contaminate Kississing Lake, harm the drinking water and potentially injure the growing tourism industry at Sherridon? Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, we discussed this issue at some length during the Estimates process, and I indicated the status report on this particular issue. I am aware that Warren Preece from Global and the honourable member were up in Sherridon viewing it together, and I saw a bit on television since then. The assurances continue.

This matter is under study, and a solution for this very serious issue is under consideration. It is something that is a high priority for implementation. Mr. Jennissen: Given the fact that there is approximately $18 million in the Mining Reserve Fund, and given the fact that the 19 96 culvert diversion project at Sherridon which cost approximately half a million dollars did not stop tailings from leeching into Kississing Lake, will the minister reconsider his time lines and fast track phase two of the Sherridon pollution control project? Mr.

Newman: When the recommendations come in from the people who have been engaged to provide the report, this will be treated as a very serious, important matter that deserves expeditious treatment. There are all kinds of competing priorities in government when we come to these kinds of issues, and this is a very high priority issue, so he should stay tuned to the progress that is being made as we move forward with a report. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Icelandic Museum Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, on Saturday I had the pleasure of joining our Premier Filmon and the Honourable Eric Stefanson at Gimli for the kickoff for the fundraising campaign for the New Ice land Museum to be constructed at the Betel Waterfront Centre, and during this event the province was proud to announce support of $1 million towards this initiative. The museum will replace the first New Iceland Museum which was moved due to deterioration of the original building. Once completed, it will house a collection of artifacts from the original Icelandic settlement in the Interlake region.

The Betel Waterfront Centre will also include the Icelandic Cultural Centre, dedicated to preserving and enhancing Icelandic culture in North America, as well as 55 new seniors apartments. Also taking place on Saturday was the opening of the new Lake Winnipeg Visitors Centre. Reconstructed out of an old fish processing plant that had served as a portion of the original museum, the Visitors Centre houses displays on the history of the Lake Winnipeg fishing industry and the Gimli Chamber of Commerce tourist information booth.

These initiatives will no doubt contribute to the growth of tourism in the Gimli area and will ensure that Icelandic history and heritage in Manitoba are preserved for future generations. So my congratulations to all those involved. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Grain Transportation Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, we got another report, released by the Canadian Wheat Board, showing that indeed farmers are being taken advantage of by railway companies and are paying far too much in freight costs.

This is confirmed with farm organizations that have been saying for some time now that the savings that the railway companies are having because of rail line abandonment are not being passed on to the fanners.

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 53 These things could have been addressed and should be addressed. Had the government listened to farmers and implemented a full costing review and looked at some of the costs, then we could have had a fairer process with the implementation of Estey under Arthur Kruger. Unfortunately, this government did not support that process, and even though it is a federal issue, we had hoped our government would have taken a much stronger position to ensure that savings would have been passed on to farmers.

Madam Speaker, $224 million taken out of the farm economy annually out of western Canada is a tremendous amount of money and would help many farmers who are facing very serious financial burdens right now. The implementation of Estey will increase further burdens for farmers. Now the govern ment across the way says that the implemen tation of Estey is going to be beneficial. However, if the whole report is implemented as Mr. Estey recommended and Mr. Kruger is saying, then farmers are going to face even further cost increases, and there will certainly not be any benefit to them.

We have to look at ways to ensure that farmers get a fair return for their product and are not burdened with all the costs. So, Madam Speaker, I think that this report is very important and one which the government should- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time has expired. Heritage Days Mr.

David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Recently I had the pleasure of attending the third annual Heritage Days at the Fort Ia Reine Museum in Pioneer Village in Portage Ia Prairie, and I had the opportunity of bringing greetings on behalf of my colleague the Honourable Rosemary Vodrey, Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. This was a lively weekend that featured a variety of entertainment, including a parade, children's activities, flea market and of course events that recognize Manitoba's historical development.

Volunteers representing heritage characters were in costume in 23 heritage venues and helped guests remember the ways of our forefathers, such as how to cook in a clay oven and how to make a rope. * (14 20) The event was a great success, with visitors and attendants from as far away as Australia. Heritage Days is a unique event that provides an opportunity for visitors to go back in time and experience a life in the early settler days. By understanding the challenges faced by our ancestors and how they overcame them, we can gain insight into the way we live today and a path that we can take in the future.

I would like to take this opportunity to recognize the secretary-manager, Mr. Vic Edwards, and the rest of the museum staff and volunteers for successfully providing the opportunity to learn about our past through celebration. It is important that we educate people about the province's past and to respect the achievements of our ancestors. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Home Inspection Industry Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, in 19 96 I began meeting with professionals in the housing sector who were alerting anyone who cared to listen, I believe, to problems that were arising in the home inspection field in our province. There was concern that members of the public may be hiring people to do home inspections prior and as a condition to their purchasing a home and those people had no more qualifications than, I dare say, I would to be a home inspector.

In other instances, there were complaints that home inspectors were actually receiving some sort of kickbacks from some real estate agents in exchange for giving favourable home inspec tions, which may not be the case, and then that would jeopardize the future investment of that home purchaser. There have been some changes related to this area, but I am concerned. In response to a letter that I sent to the current Minister of Consumer and Corporate Af f airs (Mrs.

Render) on April 27 of this year, I received a response from the minister basically saying that she had looked into it and her department had looked into it-I had requested that the Securities Commission investigate some of the groups involved-and she found that there was no problem and there had been no complaints.

3854 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 There have been a number of news reports on this issue. The Winnipeg Real Estate Board now has a committee, and they are all recommending that the Department of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs consider regulating the home inspectors' industry.

There were a few requests that I put in the letter: that all inspectors have a million dollar errors and omissions insurance coverage to be considered; they would ensure inspectors are covered by the Workers Compensation Board; they would have all inspectors have general liability insurance backing up inspectors with guarantees for payments of damages; there should be some attention to fees charged-there are some exorbitant fees charged for home inspectors; that currently there be some regula tion of the association for home inspectors; and, similarly, that there be some kind of a code put in place to guarantee or govern their standards.

I hope that the minister will consider this issue again. Thank you. Golden West Broadcasting Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, about a week ago I had the pleasure of attending the opening of Golden West Broadcasting facility in Altona, which is a brand-new facility taking in the second floor of the Golden West Plaza. This Golden West facility, which takes up the entire second floor of a four-storey complex, will not only serve the radio listeners of Altona, Winkler and Steinbach areas but will also serve as the head offices for the entire Golden West operation.

Golden West was formed in 1957 with one little radio station in Altona which was called Radio Southern Manitoba, CF AM, and has grown into a conglomerate of 12 stations- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. am experiencing a great deal of difficulty hearing the member. Mr. Penner: Madam Speaker, I could hardly hear myself speaking. This has turned into a conglomerate of 12 stations from Alberta to Ontario, including four AFM and one FM station right here in Manitoba. The driving force behind Golden West Broadcasting's success has certainly been the president and CEO, Mr.

Elmer Hildebrand, who has been with Golden West from day one. Elmer has not only played a very significant role in establishing Golden West Broadcasting to the kind of corporation it is today but has certainly been front and centre in many of the develop ments in the town of Altona and surrounding area. He continues to play a very signif icant role in the broadcasting industry, both in Canada and North America, having served as president of Manitoba, Western, and the Canadian Associ ation of Broadcasters. I would like to ask all members of this House to join me in congratulating Mr.

Hildebrand and the entire Golden West Broadcasting network and staff on a job well done, and we ask them to continue the fine job of broadcasting, indicating to Manitobans what a fine job we in Manitoba have done on the economic development of our province. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY Committee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments for Monday, July 5, 19 99, at 10 a.m. be amended as follows: the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) for the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey).

This substitution had been moved, by leave, during the committee held this morning and is now being moved in the House to update the official records. I move, seconded by the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs (f or this evening at 7 p.m.) be amended as follows: the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey) for the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer); the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) for the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner). Motions agreed to.

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3855 House Business Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, if you would bear with me, we have quite a number of bits of House information to announce this afternoon. First of all, I would like to ask if you could canvass the House to see if there is a will to waive private members' hour today. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour today? [agreed] Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, the second area in which we will seek unanimous consent of the House is to have two sections of the Committee of Supply, that being the committees sitting in Room 254 and 255, sit while the House will also continue to sit in session. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to allow two sections of Committee of Supply to sit while the House is considering bills, those committees sitting in Rooms 254 and 255? [agreed] Mr.

Praznik: I would ask that in the Committee of Supply sitting in Room 254 this afternoon it be the Department of Natural Resources and in Room 255 that it be the Department of Government Services. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to have the Estimates of the Department of Government Services considered in Room 255 and the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources considered in Room 254? [agreed] * (14 30) Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would also ask for leave that, following the completion of the work in the House this afternoon, the Committee of Supply for the Chamber begin to sit under the same motion that I would be reading later. I am asking for agreement of the House now because I will be moving the motion to move into Committee of Supply, that motion being, following the work of the House this afternoon, that the Chamber

section of the Committee of Supply begin its work on the Department of Justice. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House for the House to move into the Committee of Supply upon completion of House business and the Estimates of the Department of Justice to be considered at that time? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, just to recap, the Department of Natural Resources will sit concurrently with the Chamber in Room 254; the Committee of Supply will sit in session in Room 255 for the Department of Government Services. Following the business in the Chamber, the Chamber will resolve into a

section of the Committee of Supply for the consideration of the Department of Justice. Madam Speaker, with respect to business in the House this afternoon, I would ask, following the movement of the motion to resolve into Committee of Supply, if you could please call for second readings bills in the following order: 35, 43, 40, then followed by 26, 36, 37, 38 and 39. Following that, I would ask if you could then call for continuation of debate on second readings Bills 29 and 34.

Should those debates either be adjourned or be completed this afternoon, I would then ask if you could call, for report stage, bills in the following order: 3, 4, 11 , 12, 16 , 18 , 5, 6, 19 , 7, 13 , 8, 9 and 15. I am trying to batch those into ministers and critics so that we can be as convenient and I think as efficient as possible for those who have business when those are called. Madam Speaker, I just look to you now, following the completion of that work, that the House, by agreement, will resolve itself into the proper

section of the Committee of Supply. I would then move to be sitting concurrently with the House until it finishes its business, and then on its own. The Committee of Supply, I would move then, to sit concurrently with this House, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair concurrently with her being in the Chair for the House. Am I doing this right, Madam Speaker?

3856 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 Madam Speaker, with respect to the concurrent

section or the Committee of Supply that will be sitting concurrently with the House, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and that this House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty. Motion agreed to. SECOND READINGS Bill 35-- The Highway Traffic Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways (Mr. Praznik), that Bill 35, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (2) (Loi no 2 modifiant le Code de Ia route), be now read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, for many years now this government has been a leader in the provincial fight against impaired driving.

Accordingly, I consider it a great privilege to introduce this bill which continues to put Manitoba at the forefront of passing effective laws to deal with people who abuse the privilege of driving on our highways by driving drunk. Although we currently have some of the strongest driving legislation in the country, Manitobans are still falling victim to drunk drivers. We are still seeing a large number of first offenders who apparently have not yet got the message. This bill introduces two changes to further enhance Manitoba's response to the continuing problems caused by impaired driving.

In what is a first in Canada, drivers who drive over .08 and who refuse to supply a sample of their breath or blood will have their vehicles impounded for 30 days. This is in addition to the licence suspension these drivers already face, an administrative licence suspension. Moreover, if it happens twice in two years, the vehicle will be impounded for 90 days. We want to send a very clear message that Manitobans will simply not tolerate drunk drivers who threaten the safety of others on our roads and highways.

The bill would retain the existing review process relating to impound ments in order to protect innocent registered owners. A registered owner can apply to have the vehicle returned if he or she was not driving the vehicle at the time and could not reasonably have known that the vehicle would be driven by a drunk driver. The second change relates to licence suspensions for those who refuse to provide a sample of breath or blood. For first offenders, the suspension will double from one year to two years, while the suspension for a second offender will be increased from five years to seven years.

We have already done a great deal in Manitoba to reduce the carnage on our highways that is caused by drunk drivers, but there is more that needs to be done. We hope that these new measures, combined with new federal measures, will be stronger deterrents, making it more difficult for impaired drivers to abuse the privilege of driving and thereby reducing the number of tragedies caused by drunk driving in Manitoba. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I just wanted to say a few words on this particular bill.

One of the things that has become very abundantly clear, I believe, for politicians of all political stripes is the need to address our roads. I can recall being given briefings on where in any given year, in some cases in some of those years we have seen all fatalities, traffic fatalities, attributed in some fashion or another to alcohol being in someone's bloodstream. Madam Speaker, it is a very serious issue. The billboard campaigns, TV advertisements and so forth have all played a significant role in reducing the number of individuals drinking and driving.

This particular bill is yet one of a series which we have seen in terms of trying to encourage Manitobans to recognize the impor tance of not driving if they have been drinking,

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3857 and, to that extent, we do support it in terms of going to committee and ultimately through its passage. Thank you. * (1 440) Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 43- The Highway Traffic Amendment and

Summary Convictions Amendment Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 43, The Highway Traffic Amendment and

Summary Convictions Amendment Act (Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route et Ia

Loi sur les poursuites

sommaires ), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Toews: The amendments to this act are intended to provide for the ability to refuse to renew drivers' licences as an additional enforcement tool to assist in the collection of unpaid fines and on behalf of victims' unpaid restitution. In respect of the unpaid fines, Madam Speaker, the province has always had the ability to refuse to renew drivers' licences for unpaid highway traffic fines.

These amendments will allow the province to refuse to renew drivers' licences for all unpaid provincial statute and Criminal Code fines. The tool will be used in conjunction with other collection options, including the use of collection agencies and other civil enforcement options.

Madam Speaker, as a result of amendments to the federal Criminal Code, it has become increasingly more difficult to collect on fines that have been imposed by the courts, and I think it is essential in order to maintain respect for the administration of justice that the collection of fines be continued and that every available mechanism be enforced. Past experience with refusing to renew drivers' licences for unpaid fines would indicate that a substantial number of those who default on payment would pay if we used the refusal to renew as an enforcement tool.

The second aspect of the bill, Madam Speaker, deals with restitution. In 19 96, changes to the federal Criminal Code resulted in victims who were eligible for restitution having to proceed through civil enforcement directly against the of fender. Many victims, given those circumstances, choose not to collect because they want no further contact with the offender. Madam Speaker, the ability to withhold the driver's licence will provide an additional tool to assist in forcing offenders to pay outstanding restitution to victims.

The actual process of requesting the withholding of the licence and removing the hold on a licence will be administered by court staff. We are continuing to work with the federal government. I have drawn to the federal minister's attention the difficulties that the 19 96 amendments have caused in this respect. We look forward to working together with the federal government to put additional mechan isms or indeed re-establish old mechanisms in order to ensure that victims are not left out in the cold when it comes to collecting restitution orders. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for St.

James (Ms. Mihychuk), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 40- The Employment and Income Assistance Amendmmt Act Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), that Bill 40, The Employ ment and Income Assistance Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'aide a l'emploi et au revenu), be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Mitchelson: I am pleased to stand here today and make comments on Bill 40, that has

3858 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 just been introduced for second reading, which amends The Employment and Income Assis tance Act. I am especially pleased to speak to this bill, which builds on our government's successful welfare reform initiatives. This proposed legis lation will enable us to continue the important work of getting welfare clients the help they need to be successful and independent.

These legislative amendments will promote personal responsibility, financial independence, employ ment and community service, while ensuring that Manitobans in need continue to receive assistance and support. Disabled Manitobans will not be affected by the new amendments. We will be examining our income assistance program for disabled clients in the coming months through an extensive community consultation process to determine how we can improve the current program to better meet the needs of clients with disabilities.

Our government believes that participation in the workforce is the key to economic indepen dence. Our income assistance system now promotes independence. The system now has the supports and incentives to enable clients to leave the program and prevent generation after generation of families remaining on welfare. As we know, a lifetime on welfare is a commitment to a lifetime of poverty. We believe that most Manitobans would rather work to support families than be dependent on govern ment assistance for survival.

Thus our govern ment is committed to a welfare system that encourages independence and self-reliance. Madam Speaker, I am proud to be a member of a government that believes in giving families in need a hand up, not a handout. As a result of the welfare reform initiatives we have imple mented, thousands of clients have made the transition from welfare to work. Although the previous reforms have been successful, more remains to be done. We know that Manitobans want to work, and we are taking additional steps to help them to achieve their goals. Income assistance is a last resort.

It should not be easier to get welfare than to work. While we believe in providing for those in need we also believe in mutual responsibility. You only take out if you put in. Every month hundreds of able-bodied people walk through the door looking for welfare assistance. We want to connect these individuals with the jobs that are available. The Manitoba economy is growing rapidly. The labour market is ripe for oppor tunities for both skilled and unskilled workers. Employment should be the first option for people rather than relying on welfare.

Bill 40 is consistent with our commitment to a welfare system that is designed to help people build skills and maintain a connection with the community. This proposed legislation has been developed to strengthen and reinforce the message that finding a job is the No. I priority. Welfare is a program of last resort and clients are personally responsible for ensuring their own health and well-being. To build on these trends, we will be imple menting new measures to help ensure young people are ready for the labour market.

The amendments proposed in Bill 40 will enable us to make sure that people do not make the mistake of pursuing welfare as a lifestyle choice. As part of our Employment First strategy, we are strengthening our efforts to ensure people who are ready to work make the connection with the labour market. When employable clients apply for assistance, they will first be referred to potential employment opportunities. We will provide employment referrals and other supports to help ensure that clients are successful in landing a job.

Clients will be required to independently job search and use all available resources to help maintain their independence. During this period, assistance will be provided in emergency situations. * (1 450) We believe that everyone capable of working must make a contribution to the community, therefore as a condition of receiving welfare, all employable welfare clients must agree to work in the community, completing up to 35 hours of community service per week. Participation will be mandatory, with contri-

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3859 butions varying on capacity to work and availability of placements. Single parents with children under six years, disabled persons and the aged will be exempted from participation. Community organizations and munici palities will provide supervision and direction for the projects.

Activities may include repairing dilapidated homes, painting over graffiti and unsightly buildings, neighbourhood crime patrols and school patrols, sidewalk and street cleaning, grass cutting and snow clearing, tree banding and trimming, riverbank cleanup, clerical tasks for nonprofit groups and services to seniors. I would like to indicate clearly, Madam Speaker, that clients will only be assigned to school and seniors projects after background checks are conducted. I am very pleased to indicate that our Premier (Mr.

Filmon) will be personally writing to community and business leaders to request a voluntary commitment from them and their staff to act as advisors and mentors to people on welfare. As mentors, they will be able to provide welfare clients with valuable advice on resume writing, interview preparation and then making business contacts. In addition, our Premier will be asking for volunteers to work on community projects along with welfare recipients. Madam Speaker, we have over 17 ,300 clients who are expected to work. Many of these people will participate in community projects.

The experience welfare clients gain through participation in community service will help them to connect with the community, develop positive work habits and obtain jobs. As a result, welfare caseloads and costs will continue to drop. To help people to make the transition from welfare to work, Manitoba currently offers drug, dental and optical benefits to single parents and disabled clients who leave welfare for employment. Coverage is currently available for up to one year. To make sure people can keep on working under this initiative, benefits will be extended from 12 months to 18 months.

Ensuring that people have the resources to help support themselves has been a priority for our government. We are also committed to ensuring that the assistance we provide gets to those persons in genuine need. Abuse of the welfare system is not acceptable. The vast majority of clients abide by the rules and regula tions. However, even a small amount of abuse and fraud in a large program can be costly.

We have successfully reduced fraud and abuse by introducing proactive measures such as the welfare fraud line, specialized investigators, pre-intake orientation sessions and expanded information-sharing agreements. To ensure that benefits continue to get to those in need, we will strengthen this effort by focusing on further areas requiring attention. We will be adding a housing investigator, enhanced enrollment investigations and income and asset investigators to the measures that are already in place.

One area we will be intensifying our efforts is in helping single parents get maintenance orders to support their children. Parents have a responsibility to care for their children, and a financial contribution is the critical factor in ensuring the health and well-being of kids. We will actively work with single parents to get the financial support their children deserve. A parental support unit will be established that will help single parents get new main tenance orders or increase existing orders.

The unit will help these clients find the noncustodial parent, establish a voluntary agreement or guide clients through the legal system to establish a court-ordered agreement. We will be actively assisting single parents to get this support. We will be sensitive to the potential for family violence and take steps to ensure that parents and children are not put at risk. Madam Speaker, parenting is the most important responsibility in our society. Those parents with addictions face great challenges in meeting this responsibility.

When parents on welfare have addictions, how can they support their children when they are also supporting an addiction? We want to ensure we are doing everything possible to get support and treatment services to these parents to help them to help themselves, which ultimately helps their children. Bill 40 will enable us to make sure that welfare clients with substance dependencies

3860 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 avail themselves of an appropriate treatment program. Currently, employable single adults and childless couples on welfare must go to addiction treatment programs if they want to collect benefits. If clients are frequently drunk or high during normal contact with staff, they are ref erred to an addiction treatment program such as the St. Norbert Foundation or the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba residential and day treatment programs. Seeking treatment for these clients is mandatory.

We will be expanding this effort by making all single parents and adults in two-parent families with addictions get help. Welfare provides only temp orary assistance while people prepare themselves to work. Addiction treatment is the first step in getting ready for employment. Depending on the needs of each client and the severity of the dependency, the treatment may include residential detoxification, day pro gramming follow-up to address the addictions and ongoing support services to help clients improve their life skills, prepare to look for a job and find work.

This comprehensive approach will help ensure that these parents are able to overcome their addictions and become more fully integrated into society. Madam Speaker, parenting is an enormous responsibility, and our government knows that being a teen parent is especially difficult. We also know that dropping out of school increases the risk of falling into the trap of welfare dependency. Youth have tremendous potential. Manitoba's youth unemployment rate is the lowest in the country and has been falling for a decade. Literacy among youth in Manitoba is the highest in Canada.

More Manitobans are returning to complete high school studies. Grade 12 and university graduation rates are rising, so in order to be successful in today's world, young parents on welfare need support to gain the skills necessary to raise their children and complete their education. Young parents 16 and 17 years of age will be required to participate in services which promote positive parenting. Those with a child over six months of age will be required to demonstrate that they are continuing their schooling.

Where there are no family supports, government will provide assistance for such things as child care and transportation. While there will be progressive sanctions for young parents who refuse to comply with the new provisions, measures will be in place to ensure that their children are not being put at risk. The amendments we are proposing will enable welfare benefits deducted as a result of noncompliance to be placed in a special fund to be administered by a special support unit. The unit will ensure that these funds are used to the benefit of the child and will ensure that his or her needs are being met.

The unit will also work with young parents to encourage continuation of their schooling. By reaching out to these young people and by putting supports in place to help them stay in school and gain an education, we believe that we can help more Manitobans stay on the road to self-sufficiency and out of the trap of welfare dependency. Madam Speaker, the amendments we are proposing will greatly strengthen our ability to help individuals and families who depend on government assistance for support to become independent, contributing members of society.

By strengthening our ability to ensure that welfare clients are doing everything they can possibly do to become self-supporting, the proposed amendments will ensure that welfare remains a temporary last-resort program for those in genuine need. By strengthening our ability to make clients enter treatment or parenting programs, these amendments will ensure that clients get the help they need and that their children are not being placed at risk. By strengthening our ability to ensure that young people stay in school or go to work, these amendments will ensure that they are on the road to a brighter future.

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to be the Minister of Family Services sponsoring this bill. I think it builds on the important direction that we have already started to take in the area of welfare reform. I would urge that all members of this House seriously consider giving Bill 40 their full and unequivocal support. Thank you. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I would like to briefly put some remarks on the record regarding this bill,

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3861 beginning with expressing my disappointment with the record of this government in moving people from welfare to work. * (1 500) We know that, looking at annual reports, there were 12,000 more people on welfare in 19 98 than there were in 19 88, after this government had been in office for 10 years. So we think that this government waited a long time before taking some action on this problem. Also, we know that the cuts of this Conservative government have made things worse.

For example, this is the government that eliminated the student social allowance program, which allowed students to stay in high school. At the time that that bill was introduced, we called it the kicking-students-out-of-school bill, which the government did not like and the Free Press had an editorial about. We do not know what happened to those students, but we do know that the more education that people have, the more likely they are to get a job. So when you eliminate supports for students to get an education, it means that they are probably less likely to get a job.

You know, students and individuals will go to great lengths in order to finish their education. Just the other day, on July 1, on my way to The Forks to listen to the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra, I ran into a friend in a restaurant. His name is Tim Henderson. He used to work as one of the support staff at North End Community Ministry in the children's program. At that time he was attending high school and he was having an extremely difficult time even surviving on a day-to-day basis. To his credit, he continued, he persevered, he got more education.

Eventually he took a training program in computers and now he is working on a contract basis for a computer company. He dropped by my office and left his business card. I commend individuals like Tim for the great lengths to which they are willing to go in order to make themselves employable. He is a success story because of his individual perseverance. This is the government that cut the SOSAR program, which was a program for single parents who could complete post-secondary education if they were on social assistance, which I think probably got the vast majority of them off social assistance.

In fact, I probably should ask the minister for some statistics on the success of this program. I know of an individual who lived in the constituency of The Maples who phoned me. I do not know why she phoned me and not her MLA, but sometimes that happens. She was being cut off the SOSAR program even though she was studying nursing at university. I intervened on her behalf, and, as often happens, we were successful because the government does not like stories like this on the front page of the Free Press.

In fact, I just had a call from someone today who said that the Residential Tenancies Branch made a positive decision in her favour, and she asked me: was it because you phoned them that they made a positive decision? I said of course it was, because there is going to be an election. They do not want negative stories on the front page of the Free Press. In fact, they gave her a decision sooner than what we thought they were going to make a decision. She told me that she was talking to Gordon Sinclair from the Free Press.

I said, oh, you should have told me that or you should have told the department you were talking to Gordon Sinclair. They would have made the decision even faster than they did. Anyway, because I intervened for this individual from The Maples, they continued. They actually grandfathered some individuals on the SOSAR program, and she got her university degree. I met her recently in the community at a consultation on a centre for excellence for children. She is working as a public health nurse. I am sure that the reason that she got off social assistance as a single parent was because of the SOSAR program.

I am sure that all of the graduates who have got off social assistance would credit that program , but this is one of the programs the government eliminated except for one small exception, which I cannot remember. This is the government that cut Access. This is the government that cut New Careers. This is the government that cut subsidized child care for job search from eight weeks to two. I remember that debate because I phoned the Employment Insurance program, and I said: do

3862 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 you have any statistics or research on how long people are on EI before they get a job? They said, yes, we track that kind of thing. The average person is unemployed for 28 weeks before they find a job. What did this government do? They cut the subsidy for child care while people are searching for work from eight weeks to two. What else did they do that made it harder for people to stay in the workforce? They increased the parent fee from $1 a day to $2.40 a day per child, which is a considerable burden for people who are working but low income.

They have made it harder for these people to stay in the paid workforce. This is the government that failed to increase the minimum wage. Of course, we know that they recently increased it because there is going to be an election. They increased it before the 19 95 election, but it has not kept up with inflation. At one time, people who were working at minimum wage were above the poverty line. Now I think they are at about 46 percent of the poverty line. So certainly the minimum wage has not kept up with the cost of living.

We know that if people can make decent wages that they are much more likely to get into the paid workforce. It is really kind of sad that they wait until there is going to be an election before they increase minimum wage. This is the government that has failed to invest significantly in education and training. I believe that this government is last in Canada when it comes to per capita spending on education and training. We are in favour of welfare to work, and we always have been. In fact, NDP governments in the '70s and '80s pioneered successful welfare to work initiatives.

We helped fund programs that the City of Winnipeg ran, for example the Dutch elm disease control program. We criticized this government when they cut that. I remember reading in the media that the City of Winnipeg went through their caseload and they selected people for the Dutch Elm Dis ease Control Program who were heads of households. Those were the kind of people that they streamed into this program.

One of the more interesting facts was that these people were actually making less money in the Dutch Elm Disease Control Program than they were on social assistance, which suggests to me that people want to work, that they would rather work, that there are many benefits to working. Another story that I heard from the city is a rather interesting one about an individual who was on social assistance. He got hired at the sewage treatment facility on north Main Street. His job was to go into the sewage lagoon and unplug the drains when they were plugged.

Now, I cannot remember whether he had a boat and a plunger or whether he was walking around, but a rather smelly job, hip waders, I am sure, if he was walking in the sewage. The point of the story is that this person was happy to have this job, a terrible job, but happy to be working rather than on social assistance, and he stuck it out. He got promoted, and he got a better job. He got out of the sewage lagoon, and he got into something else. But it just shows how determined many people are to be working rather than on social assistance.

We know that there are reasons why this government has embarked on this two-page amendment bill at this time. One is that the Angus Reid poll from January 19 99 showed that this issue is a critical weakness for the Tories. We know what their motivation is, that there is an election coming and this is a critical issue, so they have to take care of it just like they had a whole bunch of other issues to take care of before an election. They had to take care of the boundaries issue. They had to take care of apologizing for the vote rigging scandal.

There are a whole bunch of things that they have to get out of the way before they can call an election, and this is another one. Their failure to move people from welfare to work is a critical weak ness for the Conservative party. We believe in welfare to work, but we believe in welfare to work that works. You know, it is interesting. We looked up the Ontario legislation. You know, the Mike Harris govern ment, regardless of what we might think of them, and certainly it is not very positive in some areas, but you have to give them credit for being serious about welfare to work. Here is

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3863 their bill, The Ontario Works Act, 19 97. It must be 15 0 pages long. This is pretty detailed welfare to work. Now somewhere here I have the Manitoba bill. I think it is maybe three pages. So this is the Filmon government's photocopy of the Ontario legislation, but they shrunk it. You know, there was a movie, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. Well, this is the Ontario legislation, honey, I shrunk the bill. They shrunk welfare to work. Point of Order Mr. Mitchelson: A point of order, Madam Speaker. Yes, I would certainly like some clarification from my honourable friend.

When he called me honey, I was wondering whether that was a sexist comment and whether I might take some offence to that. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Family Services, I was not aware that the reference was made specifically to the honour able minister. Therefore, the honourable minister does not have a point of order. * * * * (15 10 ) Mr. Martindale: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your ruling. The minister is correct, I was not referring to her. In fact, we could paraphrase this and say, voters, we shrunk the bill.

We shrunk it from 15 0 pages to three pages. This is the xerox copy of the Harris workfare legislation. An NDP government would improve on this very thin version of welfare to work with our concrete real alternatives that would help people to truly become more productive members of society and improve their self esteem, pride and economic reality. What we would do is that we would shift money from welfare to work, and this is what the member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) did when he was the Minister of Economic Security.

He tells me that he had to get permission from the federal government -! believe he said that Flora Macdonald was the federal minister responsible at the time-to reallocate money from welfare to work programs. I think that makes sense that we use money creatively to get people into work. [interjection] The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) tells me that the Conservative official opposition at the time voted for the Jobs Fund. Madam Speaker, we think that having people contract with private-for-profit and nonprofit organizations in jobs is a good idea. Certainly, I have some experience in this.

Lots of people have experience in volunteering with nonprofit organizations which inevitably is bene ficial. I think the question is how we do it. When I was at North End Community Ministry, I was responsible for getting people who were on community work orders and supervising them. We had them cutting grass and we had them washing windows. We had them mopping floors. We had them painting. We had them doing all kinds of things, and we were a nonprofit charitable organization. You know, it was really interesting to see how people responded to that. I remember one individual who came to us.

She was actually assigned to work in the used clothing store. We treated people as if they were part of the staff. They took coffee breaks with the staff, they ate lunch with the staff. This individual had a drinking problem, and, as a result of volunteering with us, she stopped drinking. The whole time she was working off her community work order. So I think there are benefits. I think if we have some concerns here, it is that the nonprofit sector needs to be consulted. We need to know who is going to screen people. We need to know who is going to supervise them.

We need to know if there is a cost and whether the cost is borne by the nonprofit agency, or whether it is going to be borne by government. I think those are important things that the nonprofit sector wants to know. We know that this government was hastily cobbled together in the Premier's Office in one day and then sent over to the Minister of Family Services department to draft legislation, and so they did not have time to think about any of these issues. They were just concerned about

3864 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 getting it out there and writing their press release, because there is an election coming. So after the fact, after they introduced the bill, then the minister says they are going to consult with the nonprofit sector and the Premier is going to write to people, so we do not really know if these 17 ,000 people who are deemed employable could all be put into volunteer positions for 35 hours a week, and paid jobs.

We also have concerns because we do not think that any volunteer position should replace people who are in paid employment, and I think that is only reasonable. We can learn from the experience in other provinces like Quebec where apparently people did replace paid positions, and well, sometimes, you know, governments come along with these brilliant ideas.

They say to organizations, you can hire this person on a wage subsidy or you can have this person as a volunteer and, lo and behold, they lay off people and then they get people who are free labour, or they get people who are subsidized, and when the subsidy runs out, then they lay them off. So we can learn from the experience in other provinces and see what works and what does not work. We also know that education and training must go hand in hand with good placements, that the failure of many education and training programs for welfare recipients is that there is a lack of connections to the work market.

Often what keeps people from getting jobs is not lack of training, but a lack of connections that links the training to the real job market. Another significant factor for people having a good attachment to the workforce, which I think the minister mentioned in her speech, is the length of time that people are on assistance. So it is really important that when people lose a job, and they are forced to apply for assistance because they have no other means of support, that we get them back into work as quickly as possible.

For example, when the City of Winnipeg was still responsible for the employ ability category of assistance or of recipients, I talked to one of the directors of one of their area offices, and he told me that employers only want individuals who have been on assistance for six months or less, and that when they have been on assistance for two years or more, they are almost unemployable because employers do not want them. So it is really important that people get into the paid workforce as quickly as possible after they lose their last job. I think we can all agree on that.

I think the question is: how are we going to do that? Well, one of the things that we need to do is to make work pay more than welfare. We need to provide some bridges for people. We need to maybe improve the work incentive. It is rather interesting that people on social assistance are the only people that have an effective tax-back rate of 1 00 percent because once you reach your $90 a month of work incentive, every dollar over that is deducted dollar for dollar.

Now, I do not know how much it would cost so I have to be careful here, because there would be a cost to government for the work incentive program, but we need to make it pay more for people to work than to be on social assistance. I do not think the minister would disagree with that. That is why we have these current bridging provisions now where people continue to get their health benefits for a certain period of time after they are off social assistance. Certainly if that helps people to become attached to the workforce and to keep them in the workforce, that is a good idea.

We have another problem that needs to be addressed, and that is maintenance enf orcement. The majority of the branch's time is spent making assessments and keeping them up to date. This leaves little time to chase down parents who are behind in their payments. The result is only about half of maintenance dues are actually paid, and the outstanding amount of money is absolutely huge. I do not have the figure in front of me, but I think it is about $40 million at any one time, $42 million I am told, which is a huge amount of money. Unfor tunately, individuals on social assistance do not get to keep that money.

Either they get it and it is deducted dollar for dollar, or it goes straight to the branch, and the minister can contradict me if I am wrong, but that is my understanding. If you are on assistance, you do not get to keep the money, but there are people who are low income who are working who definitely need that money, and it is really important that those individuals get the maintenance that they are owed.

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 65 Finally, we need a major strategy to roll back teen pregnancy. Now, the minister men tioned that teens who drop out of school are at a much higher risk. We know that teens who are involved in sports programs are in a much lower risk category, because we have studies on that, and we have quoted those in Question Period before.

In fact, I think we brought it up when the government was cutting phys ed in high school, and we said why would you cut one of the things that is proven to be successful in terms of a lower rate of teen pregnancy? and that is participation in sports? * (1 520) So we need to address this problem because it has a major impact on income assistance and the child welfare system, and we need something more than pilot projects of this minister of pilot programs. Just today I was reading in the Free Press about innovative ideas that teenagers are working on.

They are going to be producing commercials and we look forward to seeing what teenagers come up with, since this minister is bereft of ideas. I think it is good that we have teenagers designing programs to combat the problem of teen pregnancy. I do not think this "problem is getting any better; I think it is getting worse. So with those-[interjection] Well, a year ago, Manitoba led provinces by having the highest rate of teen pregnancy in Canada, and so we think the government needs to be a lot more proactive on this, because it causes all kinds of problems.

I am going to conclude, Madam Speaker, by saying that we are going to pass the bill to committee, and we are going to listen to the public. We are going to listen to the presen tations, and we will probably be introducing amendments, and we think it is important to listen to the public. Thank you. Mr. James Downey (Arthur-Virden): Madam Speaker, I look forward very much to speaking on this very progressive piece of legis lation, and I want to compliment my colleague the Minister responsible for Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) and my colleagues.

You know, she has been extremely consistent and successful in the vision and the mission she has been on since she has taken on the responsibility of Family Services. The statement that she has made is that the best form of social assi stance is a job, and she has not changed and she has not wavered from that position. But, as importantly, Madam Speaker, it was our responsibility as a govern ment and as a society to create and develop the policies that would encourage the development and the creation of jobs by the private sector.

It is not always that I would encourage people to read a particular press, but this particular press happened to put it in a front page story today. The other one could, quite frankly, do it as well if they so desired, the other major Winnipeg paper, and probably will. They are probably working on more stories because this just keeps going on and on, but: Employers weep as jobs go begging. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) made reference to it today in Question Period.

The job oppor tunities that have been developed in the province of Manitoba by the private sector are a piece of all of the action that this government believes in, and we are not asking unfairly those people who are on social assistance to go out where there are no jobs, to go out when they are not trained or not capable of handling them. It is a partnership, Madam Speaker, but, more importantly, this is the time for the New Democratic Party to stand up and say what they stand for.

Do they stand for the rights of all of society to look after, totally encompassing people with policies for individuals, or are they going to stick to their narrow, philosophically based minority position, as they traditionally do? Are they going to back up, take a broader look at it, and, quite frankly, as they did with the budget, support this very progressive legislation? It is a real test, Madam Speaker. They have made comments about, oh, it is because there is an election. Did they vote for our budget because there is an election coming up some time this year?

Are they now pondering because they want to be a "me too" opposition along with the government? Are they now positioning themselves so they support this particular bill?

3866 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 Ah, but more importantly, Madam Speaker, they were not prepared to stand up at all. They were not prepared to stand up and say one word about this, because in Estimates the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) let this particular line pass without one comment; so in not saying anything, spoke volumes as to what the NDP party wanted to do with this particular issue and in dealing with it in public debate. That is what this is all about. This is about public debate. This is how the people of Manitoba want their taxpayers' money used.

The New Democratic Party would have sooner been silent on it; in fact, were silent in Estimates, did not raise one issue, did not comment, passed it without even responding. So do you think, Madam Speaker, he is happy to have to debate this bill in the House? Not at all. What did he say? I invite anybody who is trying to determine who they would vote for on this particular issue to read what the member for- An Honourable Member: Burrows. Mr. Downey: Bur rows. I just have a hard time. The name comes first. But the point is, Madam Speaker, I think the NDP truly have to stand up and be counted.

They are either going to vote for this bill or against it. Now, it will be interesting to see how many people do not come in and vote at all, because, quite frankly, it is contrary to policy, stated policy by the member for Burrows, as put forward in a resolution of a year ago under the Canada Assistance Plan, Resolution 96(

c) I 0/23. Here is what he said at that particular time in his resolution. An Honourable Member: Where was this resolution? Mr. Downey: It was introduced here in the Legislature. An Honourable Member: No, it was not. It was at the party convention. Mr. Downey: Oh, okay, but he is still the member. He is still the member until after the election. An Honourable Member: We just wanted to know where it took place. Mr. Downey: That is correct. It is a caucus report. That is what I am referring to, a caucus report to the 34th constitutional convention of the Manitoba New Democratic Party, just to get it right.

Here is what his resolution said. Here is what he said: Encour age the provincial govern ment to introduce legislation guaranteeing the rights of social assistance recipients, including the right to a level of assistance adequate to meet one's needs, the right to appeal decisions which limit or deny assistance and the right not to have to participate in work or training programs m order to receive assistance. That was the position of the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) at the New Demo cratic Party convention, November 14 to 16 , 19 97. The question is where does he stand today?

Is it because there is an election coming that he may have changed and he wants to be with the majority of people in society and wanting to support this legislation? He does not, Madam Speaker, want to speak about it in Estimates, because he wants to be silent on it. He does not put his position forward when he speaks in the House, but he was brave enough to put his position forward at an NDP caucus convention in which he said people should not have to work or take a training program to work. Madam Speaker, that is contrary to, I am sure, the majority of the taxpayers of Manitoba.

They are not being hard and they are not being mean, and we are not being unfair because, quite frankly, we believe that indi-viduals in preparing themselves to participate in a day-to-day work activity is not only good for society, it is extremely important that they as individuals, and their families, have the opportunity to participate in what is an exciting activity, a greater life fulfilment, to have a meaningful job, to be trained for that job. If you, in fact, have an addiction, deal with them and deal with them up front.

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 67 Madam Speaker, again, I will refer to the press which came out today. This is not only dealing with just a few jobs and a few sectors. This is dealing across the board the job opportunities that are out there. So it is not a matter of training these people for something that would be a McJob like the members opposite keep referring to. These are highly technical, highly skilled jobs where people can grow and elevate themselves in our society and become a very meaningful part of our society. It says, another headline: Natives catching new-jobs wave.

Again, an extremely important group in our society who are, by numbers, far more unemployed in their groups than ours. So, Madam Speaker, this legislation is doing the right thing at the right time in our society. An Honourable Member: For the right reason. Mr. Downey: For the right reason. It will be interesting to see what the New Democratic Party does, not because they are interested in the well-being of individuals. It is coming out loud and clear again, they are interested in the long term welfare, I am sorry, the short-term welfare of the New Democratic Party when they have to face the people.

That is what they have to face. [interjection] The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) keeps hollering at me about the number of people on welfare. * (15 30) Madam Speaker, all the more reason the legislation comes forward to get people into the workplace. All the more reason to get people into the workplace. The question will be: will the New Democr atic Party do what is right for the New Democratic Party and try and get the public to support them by being a "me too" on this one? Or are they prepared to stand up and support the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) who put the resolution to his caucus?

Is he going to stand up and vote as he felt in the 19 97 meeting of the New Democr atic Party? I will have to wait and see. There is another one, the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). It is interesting. What did the member for Wolseley do with her constituency? Well, she holds meetings in her constituency. Here is what she says: She has meetings on welfare rights.

That is what she likes to do to make sure that the people-and it is certainly appropriate to make sure the con stituents know the programs that are available, but I would hope now, rather than just making sure that they know what their rights are, that she would have a meeting to educate her constituents as to what this new progressive legislation will do to provide job opportunities, training for those individuals. It will be a test for individuals like the member for Wolseley to stand up and vote for this legislation. It will be a test for each and every member of the New Democratic caucus to do so.

But, Madam Speaker, it may be the old duck-the-vote issue. It may be like the member for Burrows when it came to debate in Estimates: We will let this one go and hope the public, quite frankly, do not notice what we are doing. Well, that is why I rise today. I think it is extremely important that the public know exactly where the New Democratic Party stands on issues of such importance. I will again go back to my comments when I opened this. The progr essive actions of my colleague, the Minister of Family Services (Mrs.

Mitchelson), not only in saying the best form of support or social assistance is a job, but it is equally important that this government, under Premier Filmon and my colleagues, and I have been part of it and proud to be part of it, the creation of employment to give those people job opportunities in our province. In fact, I say to the member for Len Evans who always likes to criticize about people leaving the province- Some Honourable Members: Brandon East. Mr. Downey: From Brandon East. An Honourable Member: We could change the constituency to Len Evans. Mr. Downey: The member for Brandon East (Mr. L.

Evans) wants to be careful. Today in Question Period he was complaining about old things not being any good any longer. Well, if he is looking for old things to be replaced, I think we can accommodate him. We can accom-

3868 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 modate him, that old member for Brandon East. We have an excellent young man who is ready to take on that responsibility and put Mr. Evans into what is a well-deserved retirement. An Honourable Member: You have been saying that for 30 years. Mr. Downey: We will accommodate him to do that. To go back to Bill 40, I think it is extremely important that each and every one of our colleagues clearly understand why this is being done. It is to help people in society who, for certain reasons, have had to have government assistance.

There is not one of our colleagues who has begrudged any support to those individuals, but what is more important is how do we help those people get into a more meaningful way in life. That is what this legislation does. We do not begrudge one bit of support these people have and will not, but where there is a job opportunity, we should be working on a training program. We should be working with them to get there, unlike, I go back to the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), who had his mind made up as it related to how these people should be dealt with.

They should not have to be trained, or they should not have to work, to become part of a program. Just back to Brandon, there was a resolution also came forward, and I am just want to make accurate reference here. Again, Brandon East, again the executive of Brandon East supported, and this is point No. 5 in their resolution. It says, and I will quote directly : "The right not to have to participate in work or training programs in order to receive social assistance." So it is not only the member for Burrows in the caucus report that went forward to the November 16 , but Brandon East also believes that.

I do not believe the majority of the people of Brandon East believe that for one minute. I think that the people of Brandon East expect people to be trained, so they can get meaningful employ ment.

I have said what I believe is important to say as it relates to the constituency of Arthur Virden, which I represent, and, again, I put the challenge to the New Democratic Party: are they going to support this bill; are they going to duck it; or are they going to maintain what is their traditional position of making sure that we do not have the support that we should have to move forward with this progressive legislation? Thank you, Madam Speaker. We will watch and see as the New Democratic Party develop their policy. Is it going to be like the budget and support it, or is it going to be in opposition to it?

The question is theirs, of course, to deal with, and we will watch with interest. Thank you. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): It is a pleasure to stand to rise and put a few words on the record with Bill 40. It is, in fact, a bill in which I think the member for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale) is quite right in the assessment in terms of the actual timing of the bill; but, having said that, Madam Speaker, one needs to take a look at the ability to work and the importance of emphasizing that that is in essence one of the key components, that the government of the day in no way should be looking at imposing upon individuals that do not have that ability to be obligated, to have to do things which they, for a number of reasons, are unable to do. I think that is something that really has to be emphasized.

We recognize the benefits of having a bill of this nature, but we qualify it in the sense that there are conditions in which, quite frankly, it would be unfair. That can be things that, if you do not have programs in place, for example, you cannot ask a single parent that has two or three kids at home and expect that that parent is going to be able to have child care immediately accessible in order to attend a particular course of training or, in fact, even to get a job. So you have that form of lack of ability through a handicap of whatever sort of nature, and that also has to be taken into consideration.

I can recall a number of years when, as a university student, I had done extensive sur veying of a community called Blake Gardens, and one of the comments that came up was a lot of concern of generations of welfare recipients, where you would have second- or third generation of individuals who would be on the welfare rolls, and that caused a great deal of concern. What I find that, if implemented properly, is that the whole work for welfare or training for welfare can be a very positive

July 5, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3869 experience and that we should not be fearful of it, but, as I indicate, you do have to watch in terms of the whole ability question. There are certain industries, like today I brought up in Question Period the garment industry. The garment industry has been in need of a skilled workforce for a number of years. We are not talking two or three, we are virtually talking the last six to eight years where there has been a shortage.

That has provided ample opportunity for the government to try to enhance the skill sets of people within the province of Manitoba in order to fill those jobs. It has been somewhat disappointing in the sense that they have not been that successful at doing just that. There are other industries that are out there in which, if the government were proactive in providing training and programming, indi viduals who are today on welfare could in fact reap the dividends. The terminology of the best social services is in fact a job.

No, I do not think anyone would question that. * (1 540) That is the reason why again, even though there are some areas in Bill 40 that cause us to have some concern, the concept or the sug gestion of getting and assisting individuals that are receiving social assistance, providing the incentive and providing, first and foremost I must say, the opportunity through different pro gramming which will enable them to participate in a more productive fashion in terms of economic output can be a very positive thing for all of the stakeholders.

That is the reason why we do not have any problem with this particular bill to go into committee. With that, we are prepared to, as I say, let it go. This bill has sparked a great deal of interest among many members of the public. I anticipate that there will be a number of people that will in fact be making presentation on Bill 40. So we might ultimately reserve final judgment until the third reading, but at this stage there is no reason why this bill should not be going on to the committee stage. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I would just like to put a few comments on record as it relates to this piece of legislation. I am reminded of a pilot project that was entered into between the Minister of Family Services and my department back in 19 96, I believe it was, where we had a community in the northern part of our province which was experiencing tremendous unemploy ment in the community, and that was specifically the community of Lynn Lake.

At that time there were many people in that community who were on welfare because of the mining activity having decreased, but in addition to that, there was a lot of vandalism to homes that had been abandoned because many of the people had moved out from the community because the mining activity had decreased tremendously. At that point in time we embarked on a pilot program between the two departments. We also got the federal government to participate in the initiative as well.

We actually embarked on a welfare to work program back in 19 96 where we hired people who were on welfare to restore some of the homes that had been vandalized and needed repair, to beautify the community, and also to take down some of the homes that were still salvageable in terms of the material but were no longer habitable. What happened, we put 16 people in that community to work on the project, supervised by an individual in the community, and they entered into I believe it was 11 weeks or something of that nature of work.

They restored some homes, but in total the number of homes they worked on were about 45. They took the materials from these homes and sold the materials for cottages and wherever materials could be used, providing they complied with building code. There were a lot of smaller outsheds and that sort of thing constructed with those materials for the benefit of the community. We had a reception after the program was over for the people who were involved in the program.

What we saw was that people who were desperate for any kind of, I guess, sense of pride in themselves and in what they could produce all of a sudden take great pride in their community. That evening, I will never forget, people who had been on welfare for months and months came up to me, shy as they were, and

3870 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 99 wanted to express the pride that they had in what they had done in their community. I guess the bottom line in all of this is that when you put people to work in something that is meaningful, in something that gives them fulfilment, indeed they take on a sense of pride in themselves, in their community, and in their families. We followed up on all of the people who were on that program. What was surprising was that, out of the number of people who were hired, about 95 percent of them went on to meaningful work. I believe they are still employed today.

As a matter of fact, during the project, one of the young men was able to obtain work at the mine. It just happened that halfway through the program somebody from the mine called him up and said: We know you are working on this project. We would like to offer you a job. He told me that he went to work at the mine. Usually the work lasts for seven days. It is seven days on, seven days off. But he was so afraid of losing his job that he did not ask for any time off.

When I saw him, he had worked for 14 days straight and had just finished a 12- hour shift, had gone back to back because of a friend who was not able to work that day. He worked his shift and came to the party late that night. He looked absolutely exhausted. But he said: You know, I respect the job that I have so much that I would not dare ask my supervisor for an hour off. Now, here is a person who was basically destitute, was down and out, did not have any self-esteem, who had gotten on this program, gotten a job, and all of a sudden life took on a different meaning. I think that is what this bill is about.

It is to give people the opportunity for some self-worth, to be able to provide for them a hand up instead of a handout. If I look at what the past performance of the New Democrats has been, if you take a look at the record of the New Democratic government that was in power in the Pawley days, unfortunately for the citizens of our province, the policies were wrong. What they did was perpetuated the handout instead of the hand up. So today we change direction.

We change direction to giving people hope, giving people an opportunity to realize some benefit out of their lives, to be able to gain skills that will give them long-time employment. Now, Madam Speaker, we talk about the Jobs Fund. I can mention some programs that were implemented back in those days which were basically programs. I ask the members opposite: how many of the Jobs Fund jobs are around today? Not a single one, because they were either planting flowers or painting picket fences or doing something that lasted a summer and that was it, basically the green team jobs.

This is what the opposition's view was of long term, sustainable jobs in Manitoba. They just were not. [interjection] No, I am calling it the green team of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, this is a different approach. This calls on us as a government to give people a hand up, to allow them to train in jobs that are going to be meaningful, the sustainable jobs, the long-term jobs. The Jist of jobs that are available that the Premier read out in Question Period today are the ones that we want to train people for. Because today this government has turned the economy around.

This government, with the assistance of Manitobans, has made it possible for every person in this province who wants a job to have one. Madam Speaker, today's newspaper I think spells it very clearly that indeed the economy of our province has changed direction. The Winnipeg Free Press has not always been complimentary to what we as a government have done, but today's paper tells the story about the fact that the economy of this province has been stimulated to the point where today we have employers who are seeking for workers.

Yes, they want skilled workers, but when I talk to employers they are telling me, you give me the worker and we will help to train that worker in the areas that we need the workers in. We need an attitude. We need some basic skills, but beyond that we will provide the specific skills.

July 5, I9 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 387 I Working in partnership with employers all around the province, I think we can make some real interesting and important things happen for families who today feel somewhat destitute. Whether they are young families who are struggling to survive or whether they are young parents who, because of their circumstances, just have not been able to get up off the ground, so to speak, I think this bill provides the necessities for these people to really get on with improving their lot in life, and that is what this bill is about.

I am hoping that the opposition is going to support this unanimously, because this indeed does set a new direction for us and the people of this province. Thank you. * (1 550 ) Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I must say I find some of the comments rather interesting from members opposite because not once in their speeches did they point out the most obvious fact which after II years should be put on the record, and that is that there are more people on welfare today than there were II years ago. This Conservative government is the party of welfare.

They have, going back, and it is funny-the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) would probably remember this-because I remember back when the Lyon government was in power- An Honourable Member: A fine government. Mr. Ashton: A fine government, he said. When a Minister of Northern Affairs said at the time welfare is cheaper than job creation, that was what their policy was at the time. For the past I1 years we have seen the same thing. It is a lot cheaper to have people on welfare than to do a number of things.

I want to deal with some of the things that were done by the NDP and are not being done anymore by the Tories. Now let us look at programs like Access and New Careers, which this government has hatcheted. What is interesting is that the member for Roblin-Russell (Mr. Derkach) talks about pride and achievement. I have been at every graduation except one, of the social work program. I have been to numerous graduations in northern Manitoba, and I can tell you there was a time when the main criteria to get into those programs were in terms of financial need.

That is no longer the case because of the cuts that have taken place. I attended New Careers graduations, a model program for the rest of the country, and you know, they have hatcheted that to the point where there is virtually nothing left. I have, on a regular basis, contact in my office, in my constituency office, from students who would have been eligible for the Students Social Allowances a number of years ago and have been cut off, I6 - and 17 -year-olds.

What they have done, as a direct result of this government, is that they have had to drop out of school in order to be eligible in order to be able to support themselves on welfar

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-54
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 54.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	661667c72ad33341ab25a2b78431bc6cab38241f

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