LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thur sday, 3 June, 19 82 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MR. CHAIRMAN, H. Harapiak: I call the Comm ittee to order. We are on Executive Council on Page 7 of the Esti mates on 1. (

b) Min ister Without Portfolio's Salar y. Mr. Premier, you have no introductory remarks? HON. H. PAWLEY: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll go on to 1. (

b) Min ister With­ out Portfolio's Sal ary-pass. HON. S. LYON: I assume, Mr. Ch airman, that we're coming back to 1. (

a) as usual. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. 1. (

c) Managem ent and Admi­ nistration: 1. (c)

(1) Salar ies. The Leader of the Opposit ion. HON. S. LYON: Under that item, Mr. Chairman, per­ haps we could pause for a moment and talk about the staff in the Premier's office and ask the First Minister if he could give us a listing of the new staff who have been added to his office in the last six months. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, what we could do is provide that in printed form. There have been staff added, but of course much of it has been filling pre­ vious positions. Would you like it verbally? HON. S. LYON: Sur e, that would be fine and then we could follow it up with a written confirmation of it.

Thank you, Mr. Chair man. HON. H. PAWLEY: Principal Secretary, Senior Officer 6 ... HON. S. LYON: Could we attach names, please? HON. H. PAWLEY: That's Mr. W. Regehr .. . HON. S. LYON: And range of salary, whil e we're at it? HON. H. PAWLEY: $54,636; L. C. Carrothers, Execu­ tive Assistant 1 - $22,737; Assistant to Principal Secre­ tary, A. Mitchell, P 6 - $31 ,378; Com munication and Coordi nation Officer, D. O'Connor , Senior Officer 3 - $43,576; Secretary, J. Desorcy, AY4 - $1 3,909; Policy Analyst, A.

Wortsman, Professional Officer 6, $34, 14 9 - Protocol Officer, Kath leen Brown, Secretary, Unclassified - $20, 238; Coordi nator of Premier's Secretariat, J. Wasylycia-Leis, Profess ional Officer 6- $34, 14 9; Media Secretary, G. Cramer, Professional Officer 5- $26,287; Correspondence Officer, G. Feely, Clerk 4 - 17 ,439; lntinerary Co-ordinator, W. Gereke, Clerk 4 - 16 ,831 ; Secretary, S. Ro ss - 14 , 16 7; Clerk of Executive Council, M.B. Deeter, Senior Officer 6 - 58,901 ; Secretary, V. Coom bes, Admin istrative Secre­ tary/Deputy Minister - 16 ,831. There are currently 29 on the payroll.

That corn- pares with 28 on the payroll, November 30, 19 81, if one includes Mr . Mccance that had been seconded from the Department of Finance to the Prem ier's Office. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, that's the complete staffing of the office at the present time? HON. H. PAWLEY: There are people that are on staff that remain with the office from pre-November 30. I understood the Leader of the Opposition to want only the additional or the new people. HON. S.

LYON: Can the First Min ister advise as to wha t accounts for the increase in the vote from the print from 776,400 last year to 978,000 this year, an increase of about $200,000 for approximately the same number of people? HON. H. PAWLEY: There is the addition of one posi­ tion, the Co-ordi nator's position and .the Premier's Secre tariat. Sec ondly, monies in order to provide for merit increments and the other is the French Lan­ guage Se rvices which comes to 81, 700.00. HON. S. LYON: That's a new addition to the staff, Mr. Chair man? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Yes, the Fr ench Langua ge Secre tariat had been established in Cultur al Affairs, transferred to the Executive Council. HON. S. LYON: So we should see a corresponding reduction of $81 ,000 in Cultural Affairs? 3018 HON. H. PAWLEY: I assume so. It was started in the middle of the 19 81- 82 fiscal year. HON. S. LYON: Starting with the Clerk of the Execu­ tive Council, perhaps the First Min ister would care to give us his reasons for the disengagement of Mr. Bedson? HON. H. PAWLEY: The basic reason, I think, is the same reason for which Mr . Bedson was appointed to serve Premier Devine in Saskatchewan. HON.

S. LYON: He was appointed because of merit to serve Mr. Devine. Was he discharged for merit? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Ch airman, it has been my position and I don't think it's quarrelled with - it cer­ tainly wasn't quarrelled with by the Leader of the Opposition when he was First Min ister - that-certainly of all positions, the Clerk of the Cabinet has to be one that both Cabinet and the Clerk feel comfortable working together. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Ch airman, the First Minister served in the Sch reyer Cabinet for eight years. Did he feel any discomfort serving with Mr.

Bedson as Clerk of the Executive Council during those years? HON. H. PAWLEY: I certainly am of the view that any

Thu rsday, 3 June, 1982 gove rnment upon taking office certainly has to exam­ ine positions such as this and the individual holding that position as to whethe r there are any difficulties insofar as harmonious relationship. Phi losophically, the Clerk of the Cabi net is one that has to have the trust and also has to, in turn, feel trust towards the government in power. I was not satisfied that would have been indeed the case -(I nterjection)- it's a personal judg ment and one that I used and, Mr. Chairman, I accept full responsibility for that person2.1 judg ment. HON. S. LYON: I return to the original point, Mr.

Chairman. Did the First Minister feel any philosophi­ cal discomfort in the eight years in which Mr. Bedson served Mr. Schr eyer as Clerk of the Executive Council? HON. H. PAWLEY: It was my ju dg ment that I would not feel as comforta ble as I should with the continued service of Mr . Bedson as Clerk of the Cabinet. HON. S. LYON: Would the First Min ister not agree that Mr. Bedson was a career civil servant? HON. H. PAWLEY: I don't know just in what form the Leader of the Opposition defines that. I am certainly not satisified that Mr.

Bedson, based upon my knowl­ edge, would philosophically feel comfortable with the new govern ment in place. It's a judg ment call that I assume the responsibility for. I am sure the Leader of the Opposition used tho se kind of judg ment calls in 19 77. HON. S. LYON: The Leader of the Opposition, Mr . Chairman, in 19 77 didn't replace the Clerk of the Executive Council whe n he became Premier and the then Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Sch reyer, didn't replace the Clerk of the Executive Council in 19 69 whe n he became Premier.

Why did this particular First Minister feel that he had to replace the Clerk of the Executive Council? HON. H. PAWLEY: I think I have already responded to that, Mr. Cha irman. I did not feel that the Clerk of the Council would necessarily feel comfortable, nor would Cabi net feel comfortable with the Clerk of the Cabinet and I think that answers the question. HON. S. LYON: Perhaps the First Minister would care to give us further evidence in support of his subjective judg ment that he made. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I want a Clerk of Cabinet that I feel comfortable will indeed work towards simi lar objectives and I think it's a responsi­ bility of any governm ent upon taking office to ensure that a key position such as Clerk of the Cabinet is able to work towards the kind of mandate that is provided by the public during the campaign. Otherwise, we fail the public at large if a change is made sim ply in the elected office and when it comes to a key position, high paid position as well, we fail to ensure that it's someone that is going to work in a fashion that will accomplish the overall objectives.

I am satisfied that Mr. Bedson would not, for instance, be able to do the work that Mr. Deeter is presently doing. HON. S. LYON: Perhaps, the First Min ister could tell us what he found philosophi cally objectionable in Mr. Bedson. HON. H. PAWLEY: I did not feel that Mr . Bedson wou ld sh are the general philoso phic approach of the new gove rnment. I made no secret of the fact that I think there must be and should be a consistency. HON. S. LYON: I take it then, that the Fi rst Minister feels that he has that kind of elusive philosophi cal at-ho meness with Mr.

Michael Deeter, who is the cur­ rent Clerk of the Executive Council. HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes. Otherwise, I would not have appointed him to that key position of being Clerk of the Cabinet. HON. S. LYON: The First Minister then fully realizes that having made this change for philosoph ical and/or ideological reasons that he has now politicized the Ch ief Deputy Minister's position in the Government of Manitoba. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I think there was much more politicizing done in 19 77 than anything that was done November 30, 19 81 .

The Clerk of Cabi net, of all positions, is a very key and a very political position. HON. S. LYON: The Clerk of Cabinet, Mr. Chairman, who had served through the Roblin Government, the Weir Government, the Sch reyer Government, the Lyon Govern ment, all of sudden, after 23 years, was found to be philosophically objectionable to this First Minister. Is that what we're hearing? HON. H. PAWLEY: As I indicated, it was my judg­ ment. I accept full responsib ility for that judgm ent and I certainly was not content to continue that practice.

I don't think when it comes to practices, a new govern­ ment has to exa mine . . . HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, then does the First Minister equally accept the consequence that flows from his subjective judg ment, namely, that he has politicized the job of the Clerk of the Executive Coun­ cil and that Mr. Deeter, by virtue of that, has no securi­ ty of tenure whatsoever because he has, by the words of the First Minister, admitted to be an ide ologi cal friend of the current Premier. That has not, heretofore, been a quality that is necessary for that job. 3019 HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, that's rather strange coming from the First Min ister who certainly didn't demonstrate any reluctance even prior to being sworn into office in 19 77 to terminate the positions of Deputy Ministers. HON. S. LYON: No, I make no apologies, Mr. Chair­ man, for firing two philosoph ical friends of my hon­ ourable friend and others for lack of competence. I am ask ing the First Minister, Mr. Chairman, whe ther the Clerk of the Executive Council, Mr . Bedson, lacked competence in his job ?

Thur sday, 3 June, 19 82 MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to caution members that Hansard is being recorded and there is difficulty for the person doing the recording unless you wait until you are recognized, so I would ask you to wait until you are recognized. Mr. Premier. HON. H. PAWLEY: I indicated previously that I did not feel that Mr . Bedson would be able to do the job that is presently being done and therefore he lacked the competence to do the kind of job that I expect from the Clerk of the Cabi net, which I must say is more than simply tak ing minutes of Cabi net meetings and should be much more than that.

HON. S. LYON: Well, of course, Mr . Chairman, we all recognize that Mr. Bedson acted over the years to Premiers Roblin, Weir, Sch reyer and myself as Deputy Minis ter in charge of federal-provincial relations. Indeed, he was one of the most senior and one of the most highly regarded people in that field in Canada. That's why I am searching to find what it was about his character, about his philosophy, about his administra­ tive capacity that found disfavour with the current First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, the Clerk of the Cabinet and the function that Mr.

Deeter is providing is way beyond sim ply being Clerk of Cabinet. It's a position of indeed dealing with gove rnment objec­ tives, planning of government functions, dealing with the administration of gove rnment as a whole . I was not satisfied, from my observations, that Mr. Bedson was doing the com prehensive kind of job that is presently being done during the times that we were, certainly, in government 19 69-77. It is a postion that was paying $58,000 and it requires a lot of responsibility. That is not to deprecate the responsibilities that Mr.

Bedson was doing, but the responsibilities as I see that posi­ tion should hold go beyond that wh ich Mr . Bedson had been doing from my observations. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I am a bit confused because tonight we are hearing from the First Min ister that Mr. Bedson cou ldn't do the job that he wanted done and yet in a press release that the First Min ister issued after he had summa rily dism issed Mr. Bedson, sho ved him off to one side on a th ree-month hiatus, he was loud in his praises. I can get the press release. I have it here and perhaps the First Min ister has it, in whi ch he commended Mr.

Bedson for his service to the province and so on. Is he now saying that tho se words were false on that occasion or are we to believe what he said tonight ? HON. H. PAWLEY: If the Leader of the Opposition had listened closely to my comments, my com ment was that I was not satisfied he would have been able to do the kind of job that I had envisioned insofar as the Clerk of Cabinet was concerned. That is not to - (I nterjection)- just let me finish, please. That is not to deprecate the functions and roles that he provided in his own way, whi ch largely involved clerk ing Cabi net meetings and dealing with protocol.

HON. S. LYON: And federal-provincial relations and a number of matters that the First Minis ter, perhaps, has conveniently overlooked or did not even know about. Is that not true? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Ch airman, I again repeat, try­ ing to avoid being repetitious, it's a responsibi lity of any newly-e lected Premier to use judg ment, that a newly-ele cted Premier has a responsibi lity to carry out mandate.

This is one of the most key and most central positions in respect to gove rnment and it was my responsibility to carry out the mandate given to me, as I must say Premier Devine has done by dism iss­ ing, I believe, the person in a similar position in Sas­ katchewan and appointing Mr. Bedson. HON. S. LYON: We're well aware of the politicization of the Civil Service in Saskatchewan, all of us, and we were some wha t aware of the attempts that were made to do that during the Sch reyer years in Manitoba which were stopped sum marily in 19 77. But, I am coming back to ... HON. H. PAWLEY: Excuse me, Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Leader of the Opposition is telling me there was no politicization in his office. HON. S. LYON: We had political appointments in my office, but we didn't fire the Clerk of the Executive Council who had been a career civil servant for 23 years and that's the point we're dealing with, not red herrings or other non sequiturs. Now, if we can get down to cases, is Michael Deeter a member of the New Democratic Party? HON. H. PAWLEY: I have not asked Mr . Deeter whe ther he's a member of the New Democratic Party. I assume that he is. I have not asked to see his card.

I know that, philosophically, he is a Social Dem ocrat. 3020 HON. S. LYON: Yes. Is that now in times which we hope will be rare ... HON. H. PAWLEY: As I believe Mr. Bedson was a Conservative. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Bedson was not a member of any political party, Mr. Ch airman, by his own admission. I never asked and never had to ask him, nor did Mr . Sch reyer. Mr. Bedson was a career civil servant, which may be a classification unknown to many socialists, but it's one that is known to the public service of this country. HON. H. PAWLEY: Let me just say to the Leader of the Opposition that Mr .

Bedson was every bit as much of a Conservative, philosophically, as Mr. Deeter is a Social Democratic person, philosophically. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Cha irman, is the First Min ister trying to allege that Mr. Bedson was a card-carr ying member of a political party? HON. H. PAWLEY: I am talking about the philosophic view and I .don't think the Leader of the Opposition should try to kid anybody and certainly I am not going to try to.

Thur sday, 3 June, 19 82 HON. S. LYON: Is Mr . Deeter a member of the New Democratic Party? HON. H. PAWLEY: He's a Social Democrat. I assume he is a member of the New Democratic Party. I have not asked him whether or not he is. HON. S. LYON: Is it not a fact, Mr. Chairman, tha t the First Min ister didn't have to ask him because he knew? HON. H. PAWLEY: I say ag ain to the Leader of t11e Op position that the Clerk of Cabinet is a position that is central and is key to gove rnment.

The Clerk of Cabi net sits in on all Cabi net meetings, takes notes, minutes of Cabi net meetings, has to carry out the expressed wishe s of the First Minister and thus must certainly sh are a harmon ious philosophic relation­ ship with the First Min ister. HON. S. LYON: I come back then, Mr . Chairman, because the First Min ister keeps reiterating these qualities that were apparent to all but him. Did the First Minister find that these qualities were absent during the time that Mr. Bedson loyally served the Schr eyer administration from 19 69 to 19 77? HON. H.

PAW LEY: I certainly say to the Leader of the Op position this: I wo uld not have carried on with Mr. Bedson doing the same responsibili ties as he did dur­ ing the Schr eyer years because his responsibilities were quite limited as to what I think is called for and should be required of the Clerk of the Cabinet. I did not certainly gain the impression from my obser va­ tions that Mr. Bedson was given the kind of responsi­ bilities during those years that I had in mind and have in mind for the Clerk of the Cabinet. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, coming back to the point that I referred to earlier which I don't believe was answered, is the First Minister prepared to accept the consequence that, because of his action vis-a-vis Mr. Bedson and the hiring of Mr. Deeter who is an acknowledge d New Democrat, that he has politicized the most senior Civil Serv ice position in Manitoba, a position that heretofore was not a politicized position? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I don't accept the premise. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, then I have to ask the First Min ister, does he know what a non-pol iticized Civil Service is? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I have already indi­ cated that, in my view, Mr. Bedson was philosophi­ cally as much of a Conservative as Mr. Deeter is a So cial Demo crat, philosop hically. HON. S. LYON: Was Mr. Deeter also a full-time career civil servant with 23 years service to this gove rnment and previous service with the Government of Canada? HON. H. PAW LEY: Mr. Chairman, one has to con­ sider many qualities when one appoi nts anyone to a position. On e must consider experience, ability, tal­ ent, ability to be innovative and follow out the basic 3021 instructions that will be delivered from time to time. HON. S.

LYON: Then, Mr . Chairman, would it be the expectation of the First Min ister when he next calls an election and he is succeeded by another government that Mr. Deeter wo uld have any security of tenure? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, I didn't think there was any misunderstanding about this. Any positions that are appointed by way of Or der-in -C ouncil are political and subject to change by any incoming government. HON. S. LYON: The Premier then, Mr.

Chairman, is prepared to accept the fact that he has politicized the Clerk's job, which heretofore was not politicized, and that the person presently in that job when the gov­ ernment changes will of course not be expected to serve an incoming new government? HON. H. PAWLEY: I am not prepared to accept the premise that the Civil Service is any more politicized now than it was under the previous four years of Con­ servative Government. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, we're talking about the job of the Clerk. HON. H. PAWLEY: I ind icated, Mr . Chairman, -(Int erjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Or der. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chai rman, it is my view, as I've indicated before, and I think it's a public expectation that the Clerk of Cabinet sits in on Cabinet meetings, is privy to all discussions and decisions that are made in Cabi net and has to relate those decisions approp­ riately, that indeed such a person is in a very key, very central, position. Therefore, the gove rnment, what­ ever that government is, must feel comfortable with that presence. HON. S.

LYON: Now that we have establishe d that one of the prices of the First Minister's comfort is firing the senior civil servant in Man itoba, perhaps we can get onto some of the other positions that have been replaced. Can the First Minister tell us about the particular and peculiar qualifications for the man he appointed as Deputy Minister of the Environment and Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs, Mr . McBr yde, who used to be the NOP Mem ber for The Pas? Would yo u tell us about his peculiar accompl ishments for these posi­ tions and what is the pay of Mr. McBr yde? HON . H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Chairman, I wo uld have to get that information. If the Leader of the Oppos ition had been attending the Northern Affairs Est imates, he wo uld certainly have that information. HON. S. LYON: The Premier appoints the Deputy Ministers, Mr. Chairman. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Mc Bryde has the confidence of the people that he has to work with

as a result of the previous experience he has had as Minister of Northern Affairs. We certainly are not find­ ing anything but satisfaction from the people of Northern Manitoba. Indeed, there have been some positive developments in attempts to undo four years of inertia during the previous four years of Conserva­ tive Government in Man itoba. Mr. McBr yde is capable in developing programs indeed that will continue to ensure the confidence of the people in Northern Manitoba. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, according to the peculiar tunnel vision of the First Min ister, could he tell us whether or not in his view this is a politicized appointment now, su cceeding as he did a career civil servant who was moved along to be come Assistant Deputy Min ister, I believe, of Natural Resou rces? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I don't accept that Mr. McBr yde is any more a politicized appointment than the continued appointment by this gove rnment, in fact, I think, elevated position for Dr.

George John­ son, the former Conservative Cabinet Min ister and Member of the Legislature for many years who is a Deputy Min ister in this go vernment. No more, no less. HON. S. LYON: Would the First Min ister, before he loses track of that though t, would he care to compare the two in terms of competence? HON. H. PAWLEY: In my view they are both quite competent and that's why we have each of them in the service of this gove rnment HON. S. LYON: Quite or equally? HON. H. PAWLEY: I am satisfied that each is compe­ tent in the field that they have been appointed to. Dr.

George Johnson is competent in the field as Deputy of Health and Mr. Ron Mc Bryde is competent as Deputy Min ister of Northern Affairs. Ob viously, Mr. McBr yde would not be competent as Deputy Min ister of Health and, I daresay, Dr. George Joh nson wou ld not be competent as Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. S. LYON: What are Mr. McBr yde's peculiar backgr ound accomplishm ents that fit him to be Dep­ uty Min ister of Nor thern Affa irs and of the Environment? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, the advantage of Mr.

McBr yde's appointment is that he has been closely involved for many years with the Department of Northern Affairs, programs in the Department of Northern Affairs. In fact, he was quite involved in the basic organ ization of many of the commu nity commit­ tees in Northern Manitoba, has a very thorough knowledge of the needs of Northern Manitoba. It's unfortunate that the previous government didn't have the services of someone at least eq uivalent to Ron McBr yde when they were enjoying government in Manitoba. They migh t have done better in Northern Manitoba in the last election if they had. HON. S.

LYON: Losi ng the one seat we had by 61 votes was not doing too badly by anyone's count HON. H. PAWLEY: You certainly didn't make any improvement in the other four after four years in government HON. S. LYON: Building a few roads for them that the Honour able First Min ister and his colleagues in the Sch reyer years wouldn't build is at least some testa­ ment that we have left there to the concern that we had, rather than hand-h olding jobs that my honour­ able friends made for their political friends up there. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, there's much more to developing Northern Manitoba than building two or th ree roads. Maybe that translates the lack of under­ standing unfortunately, that the Conservative Party's had insofar as Northern Manitoba's concerned. Is it any wonder, in the last few years, the Conservative Party's standing in Northern Manitoba sunk to an all time low? HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, just for the record and the question is ridiculous even to ask, Mr. Mc Bryde, I take it, is a Mem ber of the New Demo cratic Party? HON. H. PAWLEY: Certainly, he has been.

I haven't asked whe ther he continues to hold a card or not HON. S. LYON: It's beginning to be a prequalification for Deputy Ministers, isn't it? HON. H. PAWLEY: I must say to the honourable memb er, I haven't run around to find out about other Deputy Min isters whether they have Conservative membership cards or Liberal membership cards. There may very well be some. 3022 HON. S. LYON: Let's move then on that topic, Mr . Chairman, to the Deputy Minister of Energy of Mi nes. Mr. Marc El iesen was made the Dep uty Min ister of Energy and Mi nes sh ortly after the socialist govern­ ment came to office.

Tell us about his backgr ound, Mr. Chairman. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, we had previous experience with Mr. Marc Eliesen and it was quite a sati sfactory experience when he was with the Department of Finance in the Province of Manitoba. HON. S. LYON: I think, as has previously been alluded to, Mr. Chairman, Mr . Eliesen is a well-k no wn New Democrat, having worked for the Governments of British Columbia under that regime, Manitoba under the same regime and for the Federal Government briefly. Is that not the case?

Before he went to work as the Principal Research Officer for the current leader of the socialist party in Canada, Mr . Broadbent HON. H. PAWLEY: I was n't aware, Mr . Chairman, tha t having worked for the Federal Government should disqu alify anybody as a Deputy Min ister in a govern­ ment department in the Province of Manitoba. HON. S. LYON: I never sugge sted that it did. I am just asking the First Minister if it is not a fact that this man has worked only for two Provincial Govern ments that were under NDP tutelage at the time and then briefly

Thur sday, 3 June, 1982 for the Federal Government before the last four, five or six years. The First Min ister will know much better than me, having worked for Mr. Broadbent as a paid worker of the New Democratic Party in the Leader's office in Ottawa. HON. H. PAWLEY: Well, I certainly know that he worke d in the government in the Province of Manitoba and we had a very satisfactory experience with him and I believe that everyone else had satisfactory expe­ rience with Mr. Marc Eliesen in his competence. HON. S.

LYON: He left Manitoba to go to British Columbia as a Deputy Min ister back in 19 72 or the­ reabouts, was it? HON. H. PAWLEY: I know he went to British Colum­ bia and I don't think that's any crime. HON. S. l YON: I wasn't sugg esting it was a crime, Mr. Chairman. He ceased work ing for the Government of British Columbia. HON. H. PAWLEY: I believe, Mr . Chairman, that Mr. Eliesen worked for Dave Barrett when he was Premier of British Columbia for a period of time. I also believe that Mr. Bedson worked for John Deifenbaker for a period of time. I suppose Mr. Diefenbaker, that's a different story from Mr. Barrett.

One is political and the other is nonpolitical. HON. S. LYON: Was Mr. Eliesen terminated by the Bennett Government when they came into office? HON. H. PAWLEY: I couldn't tell you. He may very well have been. HON. S. LYON: Isn't it a fact th at, after his departure from B.C. for wh atever reason, that he had' a small rest cure here in Manitoba under the Sch reyer Govern­ ment for three or six months on a contract before he took up his onerous responsibilities as the Research Director for the New Democratic Party in Ottawa? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, what I do know is that we had no reason to feel other than Mr.

Eliesen was competent and I must say that we have had no reason to feel otherwise during the times that he has returned to Manitoba. I know that his Min ister, Mr. Parasiuk , has had a very satisfactory experience with Mr. Eliesen since his return. There is no question as to his competency and his desire to carry out the general programs of the government. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chairman, just on that point, would the First Minister care to expound as to whether or not he feels that Mr.

Eliesen is carrying out the phifosoph ical resource policies of the Government of Manitoba which are in the public interest of the people of Manitoba or is he still addicted to the resource and research policies that he was, no doubt, researching and enunciating for the Federal Leader of the New Democra tic Party, which policies would have long since bankru pted this country? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I know the Leader of the Opp os ition has a particular twist insofar as his views of anyone that works on federal New Demo­ cratic Party policies.

It's rather unfortu nate, in my view, that we haven't had those policies reflected at the federal level. Maybe we wo uldn't be in such a mess as we are today in Canada, if we'd had those policies implemented. HON. S. LYON: We migh t be as well off as Britain. -(l nterjection)- Mr. Chairman, did we determine, is Mr . Eliesen a member of the New Democratic Party? HON. H. PAWLEY: I wo uld assume he has. Agai n, I have not asked to see his membersh ip card. HON. S. LYON: So, that's three out of three so far, isn't it? Let's move to the Deputy Minis ter of Labour.

The Deputy Minis ter of Labour was a career civil servant who was moved to one side by this government when it came into office and the replacement was one Mary Eady. Perhaps, the First Minister wo uld care to tell us about the particular accomplish ments and background of this person which qualified her to be Deputy Mi nis­ ter of Labou r of the Province of Manitoba. HON. H. PAWLEY: Agai n, Mr.

Chairman, outsid e of the fact that the First Minis ter doesn't like her particu­ lar philosophic bent and the fact that she's not a Con­ servative, we have no reason to question -(Int er­ jection)- it's quite obvious for the last half hour. Mr . Cha irman, if I could finish - if the First Minis ter wo uld be courteous enough to permit me to finish his ques­ tion. I'm sorry. Would the Leader of the Opposition permit me to complete my answer? 3023 HON . S. LYON: By all means. HON. H.

PAWLEY: We have never had any reason, nor have I heard any reason from any source, as to doubt either the competency or the desire to carry out the policies of government on the part of Mary Eady. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, that really wasn't the question. The question was, what is her back grou nd and her competency to be a Deputy Minister of Labour in the Province of Manitoba? We are not inter­ ested in the First Minister's objective judg ment of her competence in the first four or five months. MR. CHAIRM AN: Or der, order.

The recorder has asked me to ask you not to speak at the same time because it's impossible to differentiate who's speak­ ing, so he is asking your co- operation so he can record for Ha nsard. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, Mr s. Eady was the Director of the Women's Bureau for a number of years in the Province of Manitoba, which is an important

section of the Department of Labour, performed those duties well. As well, she has served in a senior position with the CLC. HON. S. LYON: What is her academic backgr ou nd and so on, Mr. Chai rman.

HON. H. PAWLEY: I wou ld have to provide that to the Leader of the Op position, Mr. Chairman. HON. S. LYON: Perh aps that could be obtained, Mr. Chairman, before we're through tonight or whenever this carries on. Is Mrs. Eady a member of the New Democratic Party, Mr . Chairman? HON. H. PAWLEY: Agai n, Mr. Chairman, I would not be certain as to whethe r she holds a membership card or not. I would be rather presumptuous to sugge st she's got a membership card without HON. S. LYON: The Minister of Resou rces says he hopes she does. Can we take it as a presumption, just for the record, Mr. Chairman, that Mrs.

Eady is undoubtedly a member of the New Demo cratic Party? HON. H. PAWLEY: I think that the Leader of the Opposition would have to ask her. I haven't asked her. HON. S. LYON: I'm sure that, Mr. Chairman, the First Min ister didn't have to ask her because he already knew. HON, H. PAWLEY: I don't sense that to be any ques­ tion. It's just an assumption that the Leader of the Op position is making. HON. S. LYON: So that is subject to that verification of her party membership. That's four out of four Dep­ uty Min isters so far. HON. H.

PAWLEY: I want to advise the Leader of the Op position that I don't intend to canvass the Dep uty Ministers of the various departments to find out whether they hold membership cards in the Conserva­ tive, Liberal or New Democratic Parties. HON. S. LYON: Let's turn for a moment then, Mr. Chairman, to the new Deputy Minister of Urban Affairs, Mr . David Saund ers, a man who was an Assista nt Dep uty Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs in the previous government and who ran as a candidate for the New De mocratic Party, so I take it we do n't even have to ask about his party affiliation.

He received his reward immediately after the election. Having lost the election, he was made Deputy Min ister of Urban Affairs. Is there any need for me to ask, is he a member of the New Democr atic Party, Mr. Ch airman? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, he was on November the 30th. Whether he still has a member­ ship card or not, I don't know. HON. S. LYON: He was a candidate in the last election. HON. H. PAWLEY: I'm not questioning that, Mr. Chairman. HON. S. LYON: I presume that we can make the safe assumption that he's still a member, unless he revoked his membership. So, that's five out five is it, Mr .

Chairman, so far? Five out of five senior Deputy Min is­ ters in this government in the last six months who have 3 June, 19 82 been appointed to their positions, one of the qualifica­ tions for which at least was that they had to be known New Democrats or card-carr ying members of that party and the First Min ister sits here tonight and says that he hasn't politicized the senior levels of the Civil Service of Manitoba. Let's hear his defense. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, there is no defense to be offered because there is no allegation that is worth responding to. Mr .

Chairman, there are a number of other Deputy Min isters that the Leader of the Op position has carefully refrained from mention­ ing that had been appointed in the last six months who, to my knowledge, are not New Demo crat? I don't know what memb ership cards they hold, if any; Mr. Poyser, Mr . Ron Duhamel, Nick Carter. It's quite selective for the Leader of the Op position to single out certain people for castigation. Mr.

Chairman, I want to also make it very clear to the Leader of the Op position that the criteria that is impor­ tant is that there be compatibil ity with the govern ment in power as well as competency, that some individuals have been appointed who are obvious ly not New Democr at. Ther e have been other indi viduals appointed that have been New Democrat. As far as I'm concerned, to have a membership card in any particu­ lar party will not be a basis for disqualification. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, according to my account, Dr.

D4hamel, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Education, was made the Deputy Min ister and he was an appointment from with in the Civil Ser­ vice. Mr. Edwards, who is the Chai rman of the Health Ser vices Comm ission, was appointed the Deputy Min­ ister of Health from with in the Civil Service. All of the other appoi ntments that my honourable friend has made as Deputy Ministers, the other five, are all New Democrats. Now, if my honourable friend wants to say that he is not politicizing the Civil Service, perhaps he'd care to answer that. HON. H. PAWLEY: Is the Leader of the Op position sugges ting that Mr .

Carter and Mr. Poyser, that were brought in from outside the Civil Service, are card­ carrying New Democrats? I don't know. Maybe the Leader of the Op position knows people's politics bet­ ter than I do. 3024 HON . S. LYON: I admitted that Mr. Du hamel was promoted from with in the Civil Service, but I said that five out of the seven appointments that this First Min­ ister has made have been ackno wledged New Democrats. HON. H. PAWLEY: Five out of how many? HON. S. LYON: Seven. HON. H. PAWLEY: Where does the Leader of the Op position place Mr. Carter and Mr. Poyser? HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Poyser is not a Deputy Min ister. Need I remind the First Min ister, Mr. Chairman? Mr . Poyser is a part-time Chairman of the Civil Service Comm ission and that was a good appointment, I may say. After we had restored some integrity to the Civil

Service Comm ission in 19 77, I was pleased to see the First Min ister - and I'll give him this compliment - appoint somebody who had been a career civil servant as Chairman. The previous Ch airman of the Comm is­ sion, who had been moved along to other positions in the Civil Service and has now come back to his reward as Chairman of some thing or other under this gover nment, under that particular Chairman had been a severe degradation of the Civil Service in Manitoba. So if my honour able friend wants to talk about th2.t tonigh t, I'm good for hours. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I mentioned Mr .

Carter who I appointed Deputy Min ister of Resou rces. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, the Honour able First Min ister wants to make or appears to be wanting to make comparisons all the time and about the need for philosophical compatibility with his particular form of gove rnment. Would he care to reflect back for the previous four years and name any one of the Deputy Minis ters, most of whom are still in place, who were appointed by the previous government because of their political philosophical compatibil ity? Would he say that about Mr. Bailey or would he say that about Mr. Ron Joh nson?

Would he say that about Mr. Mason? Would he say that about Mr. Bright y? Would he say that about Mr. Thompson? Would he say that about Mr . Curtis? Would he say that about Mr . Mil ler? Would he say that about Mr. Hryhor czuk? Would he say that about Mr . Brako or Mr. Forrest or Mr. Ander­ son, that they had to be philosophically and politically compatible with the previous government or they wouldn't have stayed on? HON. H. PAWLEY: I would say that about Dr. George Johnson and Paul Jarvis. MR. S. LYON: Anybody else? HON. H. PAW LEY: I am sure th ere are other s but, Mr.

Chairman, I'm not quite as paranoid as the Leader of the Op position is about running around to find out who is Conservative and who is Lib eral among the Deputy Ministers. I haven't gone back into the origins of their appointments. those that have been appointed in the last four years. Those are no longer here. Two names come readily to mind and as I mentioned ear­ lier, we are very, very pleased to continue the services of Dr. George Johnson. HON. S. LYON: And Messrs. Bailey, Joh nson, Mason, Bright y, Thompson, Curtis, Mi ller, Hryhorczuk, Brako, Forrest and Anderson, I presume?

Or have any of them been found to be philoso phically incompatible with this bunch? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, the objections that the Leader of the Op position had to some of the earlier appointments didn't seem to be based upon compet­ ency, but the fact that they were New Democr ats. I suspect that some of the people mentioned may or may not have supported other parties besides the New Demo cratic Party but. unlike the Leader of the Op po­ sition, I'm not particularly worried about finding out as long as they're doing a competent and loyal job for the 3 June, 19 82 govern ment.

I know that if it had been the Leader of the Op position, that he would already have been scouting around, I suppose, to trace back thro ugh the files to find out whe ther or not they were satisfactorily loyal or not. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, we are wel l aware of wha t appears to be the main requirement for an appointment to a Deputy Min ister having gone over five out of the seven, that they've had to be, using that euphem istic term, social democrats or New Demo ­ crats or socialis ts or whatever term you wish.

If my honourable friend wis hes to go back and name any one of the previous deputies who was appointed because he was a Progressive Conservative, let him do so now. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I mentioned a number of individuals that were appointed with in the last six months who to my knowledge have no New Democratic Party ties, so the Leader of the Op position is quite incorrect when he suggests that they had to be New Dem ocrats. -(lnt erjection)- Mr. Chairman, if I could com plete my remarks.

I wou ld appreciate it if the Leader of the Op position would extend me the same courtesy I'm attempting to provide him. Again, to Mr. Ron Duhamel, Mr. Nick Carter, Mr . T. Edwards, that have been appointed. So that the statement, they have to be New Dem ocrats, is abso­ lutely false. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chai rman, I thought that we had reached a level of understanding here th at nobody is talki ng about the career civil servants; Mr . Duhamel, Mr. Carter, who was a career civil servant and the one other that the First Min ister named.

We are talking about the new socialists that he brought in, the itiner­ ant paladins who move about this country work ing for socialist gove rnments. Tell us about them. Have dogma, will travel. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chai rman, it really astounds me to hearthe Leader of the Opp osition talk in the way that he is. He seems to be intent on desiring to divide people into the good people, the non-so cialists and the bad people, the socialists. In my view, there are competent socialists, there are incompetent social­ ists; there are competent non-soc ialists and incom pe­ tent non-soc ialists.

It happens that some of the Depu­ ties th at have been appointed have been New Democrats; it happens that a number of them, whe ther they were appointed from with in the Civil Service or brought in from outside the Man itoba Civil Service, are non- New Dem ocratic orientation. I know that the Leader of the Op position if he was in go vernment would be not hiring any so-ca lled, as he grits his teeth, socialists. That is not the case with this govern ment, there has been a mix. 3025 HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Chai rman, I think we can leave it as established that five of the new seven Deputy Min is­ ters that I've gone over, appointed by the First Minister are, by his own admission or by general ack nowledg­ ment, New Democr ats. And if my honourable friend wants to talk about the past and about his version of

Thur sday, 3 June, 19 82 politicization of the Civil Service, I'm prepared to leave it to the jury of public opinion in Manitoba as to who 's doing what to the civil servants at the senior levels. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'll gladly accept that challenge from the Leader of the Opposition and I have no doub t as to the response of Manitobans. The Leader of the Opposition is using the figure 7, I believe it's 8 Deputy Ministers that have been appointed in the last six months. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Chai rman, would the First Min is­ ter, going back to his staff, care to tell us what is the current division between what one migh t call the polit­ ical side of the staff and the professional or full-time Civil Service side of the staff? Ho w many of the people that he has mentioned on his staff would he categorize as being political and how many would he categorize as being professional civil servants, starting with the Clerk of the Executive Cou ncil? HON. H. PAW LEY: Well, the Cl erk of the Executive Council is carrying out a professional responsibility. HON. S. LYON: But he's a political appointment. HON.

H. PAWLEY: Well, just as Mr. Bedson was a political appointment, anyone that is appointed by way of Order -in-Council is subject to revocation by the government that is in power at any given time. HON. S. LYON: He wasn't revoked by the current Governor-Gen eral of Canada, but he's revoked by this Premier. Let's call him political because he is from now on. What about Mr . Regeh r, the Principal Secretary to the Prem ier? Would you call him political or professio nal? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, the same way that Mr.

McCance likely was, who was seconded from the Department of Finance so that the monies that were allocated for Mr. McCa nce's salary didn't sho w up in the Executive Council Estimates. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Regehr is the Past President of the New Democratic Party of Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, I didn't realize there was any secret about that. HON. S. LYON: I do n't want to be unfair, Mr . Chair­ man, but it would n't be unfair then to classify the Past President of the New Demo cratic Party of Manitoba who 's now in a job paying - what is it again - as Principal Secretary to the Premier? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Maybe what I should do is go down the entir e list, Mr . Chairman. -(I nterjection)- MR. CHAIR MAN: Order. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to do some comparing of positions which migh t be quite helpful to the Leader of the Opposi tion. HON. S. LYON: What is Mr. Reg ehr's pay, first of all, Mr . Chai rman? HON. H. PAWLEY: I've already given you that infor­ mation earlier. HON. S. LYON: I'm sorry I didn't mark it down. I didn't catch it. I've got all the others. HON. H. PAWLEY: Well, we read it. We read all these positions out. Do you want us to go throu gh them all a second time? HON. S.

LYON: I've got them all except Mr. Regeh r's pay. HON. H. PAWLEY: $54,000.00. HON. S. LYON: It wou ld be agreed that that's now a politi cal pos ition, the Princi pal Secr etary to the Premier? HON. H. PAWLEY: Now, I'd like to, Mr. Chairman, just run through so that we can maybe save some time. Mr. Regehr, previously of course it was Mr. Mccance that I mentioned that was brought in from the Finance Department; the Secretary to the Premier before, Mr. Lyon, was S. Goerzen, now it's Bernadette Boulet; Executive Assista nt before was J.D.

Lees, to the Leader of the Oppo sition whe n he was First Min ister, now it's Mr. L.C. Carrothers; formerly there was an Executive Assistant to Mr . O.A. MacPhail, now the Assistant Principal Secretary doing comparable work is A. Mi tche l l; th ere's Communic ation and Co- ordination Officer, D. O'Con nor, Secretary; there is J. Wasylyc ia-Leis; there was a Co-or dinator of the Prem ier's Secr eta riat in Mr. Lyon's day of W.R. McCance at $46,950; there was a Media Secretary, J.Armit to the then Premier, now Leader of the Oppo­ sition, at $37,287, J. Armit who's doing the same work as G.

Cramer with the present administration who's earning $26,287; then we had Mr . Bedson at $58,901 and now Mr. Deeter is fulfilling that function, plus other functions that were not earlier carried out, at the same salary; then we had Mr. Leitch who was Senior Officer 2, previously. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Deeter, I take it then was appointed to the Clerk's job at the same salary as Mr. Bedso n, who 'd been in the job for 23 years? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes. HON. S. LYON: The Min ister of Re sources says, a little bit more brains though, a remark that I'm sure in years to come he'll wish he hadn't put on the record. 3026 HON.

S. LYON: Mr. O'C onnor is now the Com muni­ cation and Co-ord ination Secretary for the First Min­ ister at a salary of $43,576.00? That's correct? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, well I thought - this is the thir d time I've mentioned the salary. May be we could help the Leader of the Opposition by comm itting our­ selves to make sure that we have the printed material to him because we have already gone over that I think

Thur sday, 3 June, 1982 it's three times now. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, we may mention it three dozen times and my honourable friend will remain here as long as we want to mention it. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chai rman, I do n't know whe ther the Leader of the Op position's misreading me. I'm not complaining about the length of time. What I am concerned about, the Leader of the Opp osi­ tion appears to be having some difficulty tak ing notEs from what I'm saying verbally and I'd like to assist him by providing him with the printed material as soon as we're able to. MR.

CH AIRMAN: The Clerk tells us you can get the material printed if it would be of help to the Leader of the Op position. Would you like it printed? HON. S. LYON: Mr . Cha irman, to the First Minister, Mr . O'Co nnor is the Communi cation and Co­ ordination Secretary at $43,576.00? Yes or no? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes. HON. S. LYON: And what are his responsibilities? HON. H. PAWLEY: He's got a number of responsibili­ ties. In fact, what we should do is probably giv e the Leader of the Opp osition the full job description. Mr.

O'Con nor is responsible for govern ment com­ munications insofar as the government as a whole in the First Minister's Office. HON. S. LYON: Mr . O'Connor previously was Execu­ tive Assistant to the First Minister when he was Leader of the Op position? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes. HON. S. LYON: May I add, served him very very well. He's a competent man. HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, he is very competent. No one has ever questioned Mr . O' Connor's competency. HON. S. LYON: Certainly not I. What was Mr. O'Con­ nor receiving as the Executiv e Assistant to the Leader of the Op position? HON. H. PAWLEY: I don't know.

I think it was $22, 000, $23,000.00. No? Som ewhere in that neighb ourhood. HON. S. LYON: I believe that the Executive Assist­ ant's job carries a salary of that, so I congratulate Mr. O'Con nor in doubling his salary by virtue of the elec­ tion win. He's a good man. Is the Information Services Branch of go vernment under Mr. Norm Donogh, which heretofore reported to the Min ister of Government Servi ces and his Dep­ uty, is that branch now reporting to the Premier through Mr . O'Co nnor? HON. H. PAWLEY: That is correct. HON. S. LYON: Then Mr. O'Con nor, we should be in no doubt, is a political appointment? HON.

H. PAWLEY: Yes, he's appointed by way of Or der-i n-Co uncil. HON. S. LYON: I daresay, Mr. Ch airman, that my honourable friend when he was Leader of the Op posi­ tion didn't appoint Mr. O'Connor because he liked the colour of his hair. He was, was he not and is and remains and is not proud himself to deny it; he doesn't want to deny it; he's a Member of the New Dem ocratic Party and a good member of that party. Why be bash­ ful about it? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I didn't realize I was being bashful. HON. S. LYON: I find nothing wrong with that at all. I think he's an extremely competent New De mocrat.

There aren't many of them ar ound but he's one of them. HON. H. PAWLEY: Maybe the Leader of the Op posi­ tion could also go through some of the former incum­ bents in the various positions and advise of their membership cards too. HON. S. LYON: Nob ody's finding any fault with Mr. O'C onnor. What I'm trying to get at is this - and not trying to get at, we know it - I just want the First Minister to confirm wh at the people of Manitoba should know. 3027 HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

O'Connor , I've never made any bones about it, has worked very closely with me and has been very loyal and competent individual that has sh ared my political philosophy . HON. S. LYON: Good. And for the first time in the history of Manitoba the Information Services of this province are reporting to a political appointee of the Premier. Is that not right? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chair man, I don't see any dif­ ference between reporting to Mr. O'Con nor and reporting to a Min ister that is very political. So, Mr .

Chairman, I didn't realize that Min isters were non­ political if the Information Services were reporting directly to them. In this case I must say that the responsibility of Information Services remains the ultimate responsi­ bility of the First Min ister. I migh t also just add for the information of the Leader of the Op position, I'm not sensing any allegations of politicization of the Infor­ mation Services. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chairm an, I'm merely trying to get at some facts that my honourable friend seems to be very shy about adm itting. He shoul dn't be so super sensitive.

The Information Servic es in the last six months, by Or der-in -Council of this socialist govern­ ment, is reporting to Mr. O'Connor, who is the Com­ munications and Co-ord ination Secr etary to the Pre­ mier, an acknowledged political appointee. I'm merely ask ing the First Min ister, is it not the fact that's the first time in the history of Manitoba that the Information

Thursday, 3 June, 19 82 Services have been asked to report to a Min ister through another political officer? HON. H. PAWLEY: I couldn't tell the Leader of the Op position whe ther that's been the case previously or not. In the days of Mr. Weir, the Information Services fell within the Executive Council. I don't know whether they reported to anyone prior to Mr . Weir. I don't know whe ther it makes that much difference frankly, Mr . Chairman. It's a question of whethe r or not Informa­ tion Services has been changed insofar as its basic role of providing information. That has not been the case. HON. S.

LYON: Well, Mr . Chairman, one can under­ stand my honour able friend's apparent confusion. News services and propaganda to socialists seem to be one and the same, but all we're trying to find out is whe ther the News Service which heretofore was a professional activity of the Civil Service of Manitoba is now reporting to the First Minister through a political appointee? HON. H. PAWLEY: Well, Mr. Chai rman, I thought I had told the Leader of the Op position that five minutes ago. HON. S. LYON: Fine, okay. So that's a third political appointee. We have Mr . Deeter, Mr. Regehr and Mr.

O'C onnor as we go down the list. Could the First Min ister tell us about Anna Lee Mitchell, the Assistant to the Princi pal Secretary? What are her responsibili­ ties and is she a political appointee? There's nothing wrong with having political appointees. All govern­ ments do. HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, in the same way that Ol ive MacPhail was a political appointment that was doing similar work. HON. S. LYON: She was the Secr etary's Assistant, yes. Righ t, acknowledged. Fired before your govern­ ment came into office, you fi red her. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I would assume that Anna Lee Mi tchell wou ld be fired in the same way that Olive MacP hail was fired. HON. S. LYON: By the out going govern ment. HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, sure. HON. S. LYON: And what is her job? She is a Mem ber of the New Demo cratic Party, of course? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes. HON. S. LYON: Ok ay, so that's fou r we have. As Assistant to the Principal Secretary, she works as an assistant, I take it in the political sense, to Mr. Regehr who is the former President of the New De mocratic Party, who is now the Principal Secretary to the Pre­ mier, at $31 ,378.00.

Now, we have the next person, Ju dy Wasylycia- Leis, Co-ord inator of the Premier's Secretary, at $34, 14 9.00. What are the responsibilities of that person? HON. H. PAWLEY: The Correspondence Officer, the Itiner ary Co-ord inator, the correspondence and appointment secretaries all report to her. HON. S. LYON: Is Ms. Wasylycia-Leis a Memb er of the New Democratic Party as well? HON. H. PAWLEY: I assume so. She is a political appointment in the same way that there were so many previously that were appointed politically as well, in the same office. HON. S.

LYON: I don't know why my honourable friend's so defensive, Mr . Ch airman. I'm just merely trying to elicit a few facts. Tell us then, Mr . Chairman, -(I nterjection)- HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I don't want the Leader of the Op position to be under any misunder­ standing. I want to assure him that I'm not sensitive at all.

Just as there are appointments that are made of by Order -i n-C ouncil now as there was during his term in govern ment, I'm just rather amazed that the Leader of the Opp osition think s that there's anything particu­ larly different from the times that he was responsible for the same offjce. 3028 HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chairman, Ms. Arlene Wortzman, Policy Analyst at $34, 14 9, is also a member of the New Demo cratic Party? HON. H. PAWLEY: She is philosophically certainly in tune with the New Democratic Party. HON. S. LYON: What are her responsi bilities, Mr. Chairman, as Polic y Analyst? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Sh e is doing Planning and Pro­ gram Analysis on behalf of the gover nment which is continuing on the kind of function that Mr . Mccance would have performed. HON. S. LYON: Or perhaps Mr. Leitch? HON. H. PAWLEY: Or Mr. Leitch, I'm sorry, who was term inated I believe prior to November 30 by the out ­ going government. HON. S. LYON: Yes. Mr. Gar th Cramer, the Media Secretary to the Prem ier, what does he do at $26,287.00? Does he assist Mr. O'Conn or? He's the second person in the communications field in the Premier's office

whereas heretofore there had been one. What are his special responsibilities? HON. H. PAWLEY: Media Secretary, appointments, speech writing, involved with various press conferen­ ces and press events. HON. S. LYON: Which of these people if I might ask, Mr. Chairman, or have we come across the relevant name of the person in the Premi er's office who is

Thur sday, 3 June, 19 82 doing the study, perhaps even on a contract basis, into the Information Services provided by the various departments of government including, I take it, the major Information Services under Mr. Donogh? HON. H. PAWLEY: That was a contract position and you're thinking of Mr . Weppler. HON. S. LYON: Wepler? W-E-P-L-E-R? HON. H. PAWLEY: Two "p's." HON. S. LYON: W- E-P-P-L-E- R , and he is attached for contract purposes, I take it, to the First Min ister's Office? HON. H. PAWLEY: That is correct. HON. S. LYON: Is he on a th ree month, six month, one year .. HON. H.

PAWLEY: His responsibility on the contract carries on to June 30th. HON. S. LYON: June 30th, and what may we expect from this period of employment when he ceases being employed? What may we expect to receive? HON. H. PAWLEY: First, I don't want the Leader of the Op position to misunderstand because I think the Leader of the Opp osition used the term "I nformation Services." That's not what Mr . Weppler is dealing with.

He is dealing with general information and the various information units that exist within gove rnment in the various departments and is bringing in recommenda­ tions pertaining to that because we have at the present time a lack of co- ordination, a lack of consistency in many respects, in ensuring that commu njcations are properly and effectively provided to the public. If the Leader of the Op position wants, I could go into more detail insofar as the terms of responsibility in respect to that contract. HON. S.

LYON: The one item we wou ld like to have, it may already be on the record but if the figure isn't readily handy to the First Min ister, what is the salary attached to that contract for the period expiring June 30th? I presume it's a six-month contract. HON. H. PAWLEY: He's receiving $3,000 a month. HON. S. LYON: Three thousand. Now Leslie Car­ rothers, the Executive Assistant, obviously a member of the New Demo cratic Party because that's what Executive Assistants are there for . . . HON. H. PAWLEY: That's righ t, in the same way that J.D. Lee's was. HON. S. LYON: Of course, no apologies need be made.

My honou rable friend needn't feel his skin tig htening on him at all. So then of these appointees that we've talke d about Messrs. Deeter, Regeh r, O'Connor, Ms. Mitchell, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis, Ms. Wortzman, Mr. Cramer and, of course, Leslie Carrothers are all political appointees? HON. H. PAW LEY: Yes, they are in the same way that - I don't recall just how many political appointments were term inated by the outgoi ng government prior to November 30th, but they would HON. S. LYON: 60 or 70. HON. H. PAWLEY: How many? HON. S. LYON: 30, 40, 60, 70 .. HON. H.

PAWLEY: In the same way I would assume ­ mind you, it won't happen for many many years I'm sure - that people holding these positions would be terminated the same way as the previous government terminated their political appointments. In fact, I have now the printed forms that migh t help the Leader of the Op position if we could have them distributed. HON. S.

LYON: Are there any others in the offices enumerated by the First Min ister following upon Les­ lie Carrothers, there was a secretary, a protocol per­ son, correspondence and so on - any of tho se people that the First Min ister would designate as being politi­ cal appointees? HON. H. PAWLEY: The others that I made reference to went through the Civil Service and we're talking of Feely, Gerecke, Ross. All the others are the Civil Service. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chairman, are there any other appointments or transfers of Deputy Min isters that are being imminently contemplated by the First Min ister?

The second part of the same question: if so, can we expect that a practice will be followed whe reby, wh ich was followed by the previous government in a number of cases, not in all cases, professional hiring people will be asked to see if they can obtain the best talent in Canada regardless of the political backgr ound of the person? Is there any hope or expectation that that practice might come into play under this? 3029 HON. H.

PAWLEY: We have just completed, I believe, something that I don't believe has occurred before in Manitoba either during the Leader of the Op position's term in govern ment as Premier or under the previous New Democratic Party Government, '69-77, a process that I've been very pleased with and that is Civil Ser­ vice hiring of a Deputy Min ister and that is in respect to the Deputy Minister of Cultural Affairs, in which there have been quite an extensive interview process. I believe that the Min ister of Cultural Affairs has already made a decision in respect to the appoint­ ment.

That name can be provided to the Leader of the Op position; I don't have it righ t here at the moment but we can get it. I believe that person is taking over responsibility on August 1s t of this year. HON. S. LYON: We would appreciate that informa­ tion, Mr. Chairman, now or in the course of the com­ mittee hearing tonight. MR. CHAIR MAN: 1.( c) (1)- pass. HON. S. LYON: No, Mr. Chairman -(I nterjection)-

You'll get used to it. -(I nterjection)- Courtesy is some thing you have to learn, but you'll get used to that too. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry I have to correct an earlier statement. I can't give the Leader of the Op position the name of the person I made refer­ ence to because we're still negotiating salary. HON. S. LYON: Fair enough. In that connection, could the First Minister indicate why the services of Mr. Prefontaine, the previous Deputy Minister were not renewed when his contract ran out? HON. H. PAWLEY: As I recall it, Mr.

Prefontaine offered his resig nation and his Minister recommended the acceptance of the resignation. I think Mr. Prefon­ taine indicated in his resig nation that he felt that was a proper course for a Deputy Min ister, one that he in his opinion wanted to follow. HON. S. L VON: Was there any particular reason for the government not renewing ttiat contract? He was here on an exchange contract from the Federal Civil Service for a stated period. Was there any reason for not renewing that contract by reason of competency or anything else? HON. H. PAWLEY: No, I think it's sim ply that Mr .

Prefontaine tendered his resignation. The resignation was accepted and based upon the recommendation of the Min ister. HON. S. L VON: And there are no other Deputies at the present who are being contemplated or in the mill for change ? HON. H. PAWLEY: Not at the present time, I'm advised of maybe one or two retirements. HON. S. L VON: Mr .

Chairman, during the last two to three years in the Premier's Office, as the First Min is­ ter will readily understand, th ere was a great deal of time spent by the Clerk of the Exec utive Council, the First Min ister, the Attorney-Gen eral and a number of his staff on the Constitutional proposals of Prime Min­ ister Trudeau on that particular rather elonga ted dis­ cussion. Negotia tion period came to one juncture point in November.

Can the First Min ister indicate, having regard to the fact that there will be I believe with in a year another Constitutional Conference, who will his principal advisers in this respect be? HON. H. PAWLEY: The Attorney-Gener al, of course, will be involved. The Leader of the Op position is refer­ ring to the upcoming conference pertaining to Aborig­ inal and the Treaty Rig hts' comm itment that was given by the First Min ister. The Attorney-Ge neral and the Attorney-Gen eral's Department will be involved in respect to recomme ndations.

There is no one specifi­ cally in a technical sense who is wor king on a paper presentation but it will be the Attorney-Gener al's Department. HON. S. L VON: I take it from what the Attorney­ General has said that Professor Gib son from the Uni- 3 June, 19 82 versity of Manitoba is doing some Constitution related work. Would he be regarded as one of the principal advisers to the Fi rst Minister on Constitutional mat­ ters or not? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Yes, he certainly wou ld be but I'm not certain whether he will be involved in respect to the particular conference the Leader of the Opp osi­ tion is referring to, but it could very well be that Pro­ fessor Gibson would be providing imput. There's been no decision made. HON. S. LYON: Professor Gibson, I believe and I'm subject to correction on this, was among tha t level of academics who was rather more favourably disposed to an entrenched Bill of Rig hts than most of the academicians who found their way ar ound the Table in the course of the First Min isters' Conferences on this matter.

May I ask in a general way, does the First Minister happen to share the views of Professor Gib­ son with respect to the need for a fully entrenched Charter of Righ ts in Canada or does he rather favour the compromise that was arrived at, namely, one wh ich preserves parliamentary supremacy by reason of the parliamentary override which is contained in the present document? HON. H. PAWLEY: I would prefer to have a Bill of Righ ts that does not enshrine parliamentary override. HON. S. LYON: I take it what my honou rable friend is saying, Mr.

Chairman, is that he would prefer to have a Ch arter of Right s entrenched with no parliamentary override. Is that what we're hearing? HON. H. PAWLEY: That is correct. HON. S. LYON: That was the position that of course was in direct opposition to the position that was taken by Mr. Blakeney, who at that time was the only NDP Premier in Canada. The First Min ister has succeeded to that position now for a whi le.

Could I ask if this position that he holds is such that he can not visualize a set of circumstances wherein the parliam entary and/or the legislative override would be required to be used by this Leg islature or by the Parliament of Can­ ada in order to ensure that the law of the country was not being legisla ted in a way by the courts which was contrary to the will of the people? 3030 HON. H. PAWLEY: I am not conscious at thi s time of any of the provisions that the Manitoba Government would want to override.

Now experience may tell us otherwise, but I'm not aware of any of the provisions at thi s particular point that the Attorney-General or myself as First Min ister wou ld want the Province of Manitoba to override. I'd like to just add some further information for the Leader of the Op position. Professor Gibson, Kerr Twaddle, Brian Schw artz and Colin Gillespie are all advisers on Constitutional matters at the present time. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Twaddle is still retained by the govern ment? He was the Ch ief Counsel of course for the govern ment in the action brought agai nst the

HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes. We haven't checked his card. We don't intend to. HON. S. LYON: I haven't either, he's one of the best counsel in Canada. -(I nterjection)- Mr . Chairman, the Attorney-General is trying to get his two bits worth in, but Mr. Twaddle of course acted as the lead coun­ sel for Manitoba during the time when the Premier of Manitoba at that time happened to be the Chairman of the Conference of Premiers and as a result Mr. Twad­ dle acted in a very distinguished way, ultimately .;s lead counsel for the eight provinces who successfully opposed Mr . Trudeau's unilateral package.

Now getti ng back to the point that I was on, we're well aware of the Attorney-General's opinion on this matter because he's spoken out to the Manitoba Assoc iation of Righ ts and Liberties or L.R. or R.L., whatever the group is, MARL, and said that he can visualize no circumstance under which the parliamen­ tary override would be used by this Legisla ture to amelior ate agai nst the Bill of Righ ts or some interpre­ tation of the Bill of Righ ts that migh t be made by some court.

I'm not in any way trying to put words into the Premier's mouth, but I rather thought that he was being a bit more prudent than that, in saying that he can't visualize such a circumstance but that it might well exist. Am I right in my understanding? HON. H. PAWLEY: That wou ld be basically correct. I indicated that I cannot see any of the exis ting provi­ sions wh ere the govern ment of the Province of Mani­ toba wou ld want to use its power of override.

If indeed circumstances indicated otherwise in the future, then government would have had to assume responsibility for looking at what would be a very important decision as to whe ther same would be ju stified or not. I do not foresee that at this stage. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, let me perhaps sug­ gest a scenario in which I think the proper prudence of the First Min ister as opposed to the rhetorical flam­ boyance of the Attorney-General migh t be wiser.

A good number of years ago, and indeed the First Min is­ ter and the former Attorney-General will be familiar I am sure with the law, the Legisla ture of Man itoba in its wisdom saw fit to make an amendment to The Child Welfare Act which enabled courts to order medical treatment to be given to children wh ere that medical treatment was being denied children in a life-sav ing way because of legitima te religious beliefs of the parents. Now we have a Bill of Righ ts or a Charter of Rig hts which talks about freedom of religion.

I'd like to ask the First Min ister to visualize a situation like this, that you migh t have such a child in need, for instance, of a blood transfusion, which was the case in point some 20-some-odd years ago. A court under the provincial legislation still in force could order that transfusion to be given. Theoretically at least, the parents holding firmly to their religious belief - no one is criticizing this belief - could now under the Bill of Righ ts under the

section dealing with freedom of rel igion go to the court and seek to have the provincial law nullified on the basis that their freedom of rel igion was being denied if the court were to order the transfusion to be given to that child. Is that a circumstance, Mr . Chair- 3031 19 82 man, in which the First Minister in his, I wou ld think, wiser prudence would be prepared to recommend to the Leg islature that an override take place and that the law of Manitoba be declared to be superior to that of the Ch arter of Righ ts

section which, if followed th rough, would of course possib ly cause the child to die. HON. H. PAWLEY: If indeed that was the case as outlined by the Leader of the Op position, but I don't claim to be a criminal lawyer or a constitutional law­ yer, but I would tend to think that the exa mple given by the Leader of the Op position would not here be appli­ cable because I would think - and the Attorney­ General's a former professor of criminal law - that HON. S. LYON: That's no guarantee that his opinions are any better than yours. HON. H. PAWLEY: I would tend to think that HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, some of us don't have to have a traffic map to find our way to a courtho use like the Attorney-General. Ho wever, let's carry on. MR. CHAIR MAN: Or der. HON. H. PAWLEY: I would be inclined to think that, in the given case, that would be an infringement of the criminal law, that there would be a situation involving criminal neglect. I would think in that case that the criminal law would prevail. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, th ere was a situation, I can tell the First Min ister, some 20 odd years ago wh ere that fact, some what akin to those that I have presented as a theoretical or a hypothetical scenario, did occur. The child died and as a result of the child dying the Leg islature of Manitoba in its wisdom enacted a law which would permit the courts to move in and override the lack of consent of the parents and order the medical treatment to be given as a lifesaving measure.

Now, we realize that this is a hypothetical situation, but I am asking the First Min ister, would he not con­ sider that assuming that set of circumstances, which may or may not come about - pray God the y won' t come about - wou ld he not then be prepared to request the Legisla ture of Manitoba to ov erride the Ch arter of Righ ts in order to save lives? HON. H. PAWLEY: I'd be inclined to think that the opening

section in the Charter, dealing with the "sub­ ject to reasonable limitations that are acceptable in a parliamentary democracy," would protect the chil­ dren in the kind of case that the Leader of the Op posi­ tion has provided us with. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I'm heartened at least to hear the First Min ister say that he is like most of us, not all knowledgeable. We can't visualize all circum­ stances, but he is prepared as was the wisdom of the nine Premiers at the time to admit of the validity of an override clause because of the fact that we just can't, none of us, contemplate all of the circumstances in which an entrenched Charter should be applied

holus-bol us without reference to the co mmunity will, community values. the mores of our society, and so on. HON. H. PAWLEY: Excus e me. I don't want to be misunderstood because I had indicated to the Leader of the Op position that I'd prefer to have no overriding clause, so I wouldn't want the Leader of the Op posi­ tion to interpret my remarks as support for the overrid­ ing clause. I cannot foresee a situation by which the overriding clause would be necessary or indeed that we would want to use that clause in Manitoba. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Chair man. perhaps the First Min­ ister can refresh my memory legitimately. I have no accurate recollection of the position wh ich he took as Leader of the Opposition vis-a-vis the topic of an entrenched Charter of Righ ts. It seems to me that there was no position for some time and then a posi­ tion which seemed to say, well, the Charter's a good thing, but not necessarily an entrenched Charter. Can the Hono urable First Minister, Mr.

Chairman , enlighten the Comm ittee as to what the position of the NOP was in Op position and is it the same as the position that he has just enunciated now vis-a-vis the Charter of Rig hts? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, the Leader of the Op position is incorrect when he indicates there was no position, and I could indeed recirculate a response that was provided to the Winnipeg Free Press questi­ onnaire of Septe mber, 19 80, whic h I believe was just prior to the Constitutional Conference, in which First Min isters were attending that was held here in Win­ nipeg in which I dealt with the position of the then Op position pertaining to the Co nstitution.

Our posi­ tion was in support of an entrenched Bill of Righ ts and I believe there was considerable debate in the 19 81 Sess ion in which my colleagues expressed that sup­ port for an entrenched Bill of Righ ts. MR. CHAIRM AN: I wonder if we're getting a little off the Estimates by discussion of this subject? HON. S. LYON: Not really. We'll get to it sooner or later. If we don't do it now, we'll do it somewher e else. I have no more questions at the moment. I have some more, Mr . Chairman, that I'll come back to. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1 )- pass - the Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. L.

SHERMAN: It was mentioned by the Honour ­ able First Min ister earlier, and it may not be a major point in terms of some of the substance under discus­ sion at this time, but I th ink it is important because of what is on the record and I believe some clarification is required. I didn't want to interrupt the continuity of the questions and answers that were being exchanged between the First Min ister and my Leader, hence I waited until now to raise it. I want to go back to the parallel that the First Mi nis­ ter drew between the appointment of Mr.

Mc Bryde as Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs and the appoint­ ment by the previous go vernment, by the Prog ressive Conservative Government, of Dr. George Joh nson to 3 June, 19 82 a senior position in the Department of Health . The First Minister has used the example of Dr. Johnson's appoi ntment as Ac ting Deputy Min ister in the Department of He alth as in fact a parallel and a justifi­ cation for appointments such as the appointment of Mr. Mc Bryde and I don't think that's entirely fair, Mr. Chairman. Fair or not, I suggest to the Comm ittee that it's not accurate.

I raise it because it's not the first time that Dr. Joh nson's name has been used in thi s way and I feel that the way it's being used is unfair to the individual himself. This government elected to retain Dr. Joh nson in a capacity in the Min istry of Health at a senior advisory level and tha t was their perfect righ t. but if they simply did that in order to provide them­ selves with a justification for political appointments of their own, then I think that is rather a cynical move to have made. It isn't the fi rst time that Dr. Joh nson's name has been used in this way.

I would ask the First Min ister with respect, Mr. Chair man, if he doesn't see some very clear distinc­ tion between the appointment of Dr. Joh nson by the previous government and the appointment of Mr. McBr yde, not the least of them being the fact that Dr. Joh nson was never appointed Deputy Min ister, he was appointed Acting Deputy Min ister? Now, that dis­ tinction may be small, but nonetheless it's there. He was appointed Acting Deputy Min ister for the very reason that a search was being conducted for a Dep­ uty Minister.

We were not entirely successful in that search, but certainly we had candidates in mind and we approached 'them. Because of the area of expertise and competence involved, it had not been possible to conclude that search entirely, but there is a distinction in the title and position to whic h Dr. Joh nson was named and the title and position to which Mr . Mc Bryde was named. Further to that, Mr. Chairman, Dr. Johnson ceased to be a Minister of the Crown in the Province of Mani­ toba and the ML A for Gimli on June 25, 19 69, and he was appointed to a position in the Department of Health by our gove rnment in 19 78.

He had been out of the active field of politics for nine years, back in medi­ cal practice for nine years. 3032 Mr. McBr yde ceased to be a Minister of the Crown and the Memb er for The Pas on November 17 , 19 81 , and he was appointed a Deputy Min ister by this govern ment, if memory serves me correctly, in Janu­ ary of 19 82, two months later. In fact, he was still an active political partisan. Further to that, Mr. Chairman, Dr. Joh nson sup­ planted no one as Acti ng Deputy Min ister and he wasn't brought in to supplant anyone.

The First Min is­ ter may recall that the Department of Health and Com munity Servi ces was split and for reasons of expertise it was deemed desirable and agreeable with Mr . Ron Joh nson that Mr. Ron Johnson, who was the Deputy Minister of the combined department, should be Deputy Mini ster of Community Services. That made it necessary for us to undertake a search for a Deputy Min ister of Health. It was in those circumstan­ ces that Dr. Joh nson who was serving in the depart­ ment then as an advisor , was named Ac ting Deputy Minister. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to ask the First Min ister if, in fairness, he would not see some consid­ erable dif ference and disti nction in tho se two

Thur sday, 3 June, 19 82 appointments and if he does not consider it somewhat unfair that Dr. Joh nson's name should be - well, I won't say repeatedly - frequently used in debates of this kind as an argument employed by the government to defend their appointments? I am not st anding in accusation of the First Min ister for his appointments. I'm simply asking him whether tho se appointments cannot stand in the First Minis ter's mind on their own without having to use the contrived argu ment about Dr. John son as a justification for them? HON. H.

PAWLEY: First, I want to background fort he Memb er for Fort Garry the backgr ound to the discus­ sion. I'm not sure whe ther the Mem ber for Fort Garry was present, but the Leader of the Op position was making reference to five individuals that had been appointed Dep uty Min ister s during the present govern ment's term.

Four of those five indeed have had, to my knowledge, no previous record of sitting in any Legislature or Parliament in Canada, but it seemed to be a topic of some discussion on the part of the Leader of the Op position insofar as fo ur deputies, all competent able people, who have their own obvious political philosophy. So, now I say to the Member for Fort Garry, if indeed he is making that point about Dr.

George Johnson, the four that the Leader of the Op position was and I say was actually attacking thei r credibility as being Dep­ uty Min isters in this government, that would even be more remote insofar as those four than the Dr. George Joh nson situation . Mary Eady has had to my knowl­ edge no previous political office, elected office; Marc Eliesen; the only one that has had a previous elected office was Ron Mc Bryde.

The point that I made and I make it agai n, I would not want Ron McBr yde to be the Deputy Min ister or have a senior position in the Health Department nor would I want George Joh nson to be Depµty Minister of Northern Affairs. I believe that they each will do an extremely competent job in their own role. At the same time, I say and the fact is th ere, it's clear, the y each have a previous active political record.

I'm not holding that agains t George Johnson, as has been demonstrated since we have assumed office nor, I can tell the Mem ber for Fort Garry and I wish the Leader of the Op position was here, am I going to hold it against the former Honou rable Ron McBr yde, nor wou ld I hold it against the Honour able George Johnson.

I say to the Mem ber for Fort Garry, we get into very thin ice when we start to cast names about, because if he is arguing that George Joh nson some way or other is more remote because there was a longer space of time between his elected office and his being appointed to a senior position in the Department of Health, then surely the others that the Leader of the Op position mentioned that weren't ever at any time holding elected office are even much more remote, and yet they were the su bject of earlier controversy this evening. MR. L. SHERM AN: Mr.

Chairman, the fact is that I was here and I did witness the earlier exchange between the First Minister and my Leader and Dr. George Joh nson's name, position and history was not raised by the First Min ister in comparison to the appoint­ ments either of Mary Eady or the appointments of Mr. El iesen or the appointment of Mr. Deeter or the appointment of any of tho se individuals who fit into the context of the argu ment to which the First Min ister has just referred. I made a notation at the time that Dr.

Joh nson's name came into the conversation, injected into it by the First Min ister, when the question arose about Mr. McBr yde. It's not the first time that this has happened. Indeed, I have heard spokesmen for the present government compare the two appointments in the past, the appointment of Dr. Johnson and the appointment of Mr . Mc Bryde. My poi nt, Mr. Chairman, is that it is not an ho nest comparison because Dr. Johnson was not in active politics when he was appointed and Mr. Mc Bryde was. Dr. Joh nson was not brought into supplant a Deputy Min ister and Mr. McBr yde was. Dr.

Joh nson, in fact, was never appointed Deputy Min ister. His position was temporary whil e a search was going on, but more than that, my point is that if this government really believes in the value and the virtue of Dr. Johnson and that is why they retained him, can we not dispense with this rather unattractive comparison all the time of Dr. Johnson's appointment whe never the government feels sensitive about an appointment like that having to do with Mr. McBr yde? It appears that the primary value -(lnt erjection)­ no, it doesn't suit Dr. Johnson very well and as a friend of Dr.

Johns on's, it doesn't suit me very well. The Minister of Agricu lture says, it doesn't suit me very well. It certainly doesn't suit me very well. If the Min is­ ter of Agricu lture had any sensitivity for the person, Dr. George Johnson, it wouldn't suit him very well. Everytime an ar gu ment is raised as to the appoint­ ments of a political nature made by this government - not every time, tha t's an exag geration - but a number of times, this was not the first time, spokesman for the govern ment have said, well, what about Dr. George Johnson. My question is, is that the justification for the retention of Dr.

George Johnson, so that the Min­ ister of Agricult ure and other spokesmen for the gov­ ernment and the First Minis ter can say, well, we're appointing Ron McBr yde, etc., etc., because the Tories appointed Dr. George Johnson? Well, that's the cynical

interpretation that appears to be emerg ing from the continual raising of this argu ment about Dr. Johnson because the two posi­ tions do not equate. The two cir cumstances equate in no way whatsoever, Mr . Chairman. Mr. Ron Mc Bryde was a warm body right out of politics. 3033 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, order. MR. L.. SHE RMAN: I use that term deliberately for emphasis in the political context, Mr. Chairman. Dr. George Joh nson was nine years out of politics, nine years back in private practice.

Now, it takes a consid­ erable and a cynical stretch of political imagi nation to compare tho se two appointments and I submi t to the First Minister and to the Min ister of Agriculture, who seems suddenly to be interested in this subject, that is an unfair use and explo itation of the appointment and the services of Dr. Geo rge Joh nson to keep raising that as the justification for the appointment of Mr. McBr yde and that is the context in wh ich it was raised by the First Min ister. Mr. Chairman, the record will show that the name of

Thur sday, 3 June, 19 82 Dr. George Joh nson and the references to his appointment were brought into the discussions in thi s comm ittee when the Leader of my party raised the question about Mr. McBr yde. The Min ister of Agricul­ ture can protest that all he likes, but it is on the record and it's been done before. I would ask the First Min is­ ter and his colleagues to cease and desist if they have any sensitivity for Dr. Johnson wh atsoever. MR. CHAIRM AN: 1. (c) {1) -pass. MR. L. SHE RM AN: We are not passing; we have other questions. My colleague, the Member for Arthur , has questions. MR.

CHAIRM AN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Chairman, there is an area of concern that I've had, particularly as it relates to the farm community, and I would like to just ask the Pre­ mier if he couldn't confirm for me some of the state­ ments that he has made and some of the documents that he has put his name to, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRM AN: Where does this fit in? MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, if you don't feel it's fair that we should ask the Prem ier questions on statements that he has made ... MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on the Est imates of his MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I will get specifically to the part of the Estimates wh erein which the Premier has indicated that he would give support to the beef industry in statements made by him. If he's not pre­ pared to or if you, Mr. Chairman, are not allowing me to ask him questions about statements that he has made, then I think the whole purpose of ... MR. CHAIR MAN: Poss ibly, it would be more approp­ riate when we come to the Minister's Salary, then we can have a wide range of discussion. At this time, maybe we could move on with the Esti mates. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, if the Premier is somewha t sensitive and a little nervous about answer­ ing, I can wait until that particular time and I'll yield the floor to my Leader if he has further questions in this area. MR. CHAIRM AN: 1.( c) (1)- pass? HON. S. LYON: No, Mr. Chairman. On the General Admins tration of the Fi rst Minis ter's office, Mr. Chairman, wh ereas Mr . Bedson used to act in a posi­ tion witho ut title, actually as Deputy Min ister of federal-pro vincial relations, who is occupying that position at the present time? HON. H. PAWLEY: Federal- provincial relations? HON. S. LYON: Yes. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Deeter. 3034 HON. S. LYON: Mr. Deeter is doing that and wha t were the other responsibilities, Mr. Chairman, that the First Minister said that Mr . Deeter had that were addi­ tional to tho se responsibilities that he surm ised that Mr. Bedson had? HON. H. PAWLEY: Some of Mr. Leitch's responsibilities. HON. S. LYON: In terms of policy co- ordination. HON. H. PAWLEY: That's right. HON. S. LYON: The Western Premiers' Conference, as I understand it now, has been postponed because of the Saskatchewan election until the fall, I believe? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Yes, it has been postponed from June 8th, 9th and 10 th until Sept emb er. I don't believe the date has been re-es tablis hed yet. HON. S. LYON: And the First Min isters,' that is, the Annual Premier's Conference at which all ten Premi­ ers will be present, that is slated I believe this year for Nova Sco tia. Are the dates the same? Will that be held before the Western Premiers' now because of the change? HON. H. PAWLEY: I expect it will be. I believe the First Min isters' Conf!=lrence is schedu led for the third week in August in Nova Scotia. HON. S.

LYON: Reference has been made during the course of the Se ssion, Mr. Chairman, to the Econo mic Conference of November, 19 78, at which all ten Pre­ miers and the Prime Min ister brought forward an eco­ nomic blueprint for the country. Some migh t say it has been honoured more in the breach than the obser­ vance, particularly by the Federal Government. That particular blueprint was reinforced and undergir ded again at the last full meeting of the ten Premiers in August in Vic toria, B.C.

Could the First Min ister say, from the most recent Economic Conference, if he has noticed any fundamental chang es in the attitudes of the Premiers towards supporting the fundamental principles of that communique of 19 78?

I realize he may not have it in front of him but I can tell him, and I'm sure he can accept my undertak ing in thi s regard, that the main thrust of it was that the private sector was the main engine wh ich fue led our economy in Canada and that gove rnment should not be doing thing s that are inimical to the private sector, but rather should be working with the private sector in order to insure that the economy worked properly and expanded as reasonably as possib le. That docu ment, of course, was sig ned by all ten Premiers at the time including Premier Blakeney.

Is there anything in that statement with which the current Premier of Man itoba would find himself at odds? HON. H. PAWLEY: I would want to see the com mu­ nique first, before I wou ld be able to advise whether or not I agreed with it in totality or not. I do know th at at the recent Feder al-Pr ovincial Conference that there seemed to be some broader minded attention and desire to apply economic remedies than the one just

Thur sday, 3 June, 19 82 outlined by the Leader of the Op position. I sensed from many of the subm issions that Premiers were increasingly accepting a role for both public and pri­ vate investment. So, I say to the Leader of the Op posi­ tion, it seems to me that approach that he has outlined probably would be narrower than certainly my obser­ vations at the Federal-Pr ovincial Conference. It cer­ tainly would be narrower than my own. HON. S. LYON: I was merely trying to indicate to the First Min ister, Mr. Chairman, that was one of the fu :1- damentals.

There were a number of other sections to that economic blueprint at which perhaps the First Min ister can take a look before, perhaps at another session, we get to his salary. would appreciate sin­ cerely though having his view on that because, as I say, as recently as Aug ust of 19 81 , that remained the considered view of the ten Premiers of Canada. If there has been any fundamental change in that, it would be interesting to know. It would also be interesting to know, Mr.

Chairman, the extent to which, if any, the First Min ister of this province would find himself in divergence with what was re ally a broad hig hway approach to economic development in Canada which seemed to offer some hope, and may I say, some confidence to the business com munity at that time, which confidence has regret­ tably since been sadly eroded. So, without trying to impinge upon his time, I realize he has many other thi ngs to do, if he could perhaps take a look at the 19 78, November communique. It won't take too long to read.

In fact, I believe I filed it as a sessional paper during one of my speeches in the Ho use. I would like to find out if there has been any substantial change in that blueprint which ... HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, well, certainly I'll be inter­ ested in look ing at that. As the Leader of the Op posi­ tion knows, none of the fi les that the Leader of the Op position had when he was Premier are accessible to me. Is he telling me that it's somewher e else? We have it. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder ifth e First Min ister can indicate whe ther he intends to stand his Cabinet during this year or any of the successful applicants in this room. HON. H. PAWLEY: The answer to (

a) is yes: (

b) maybe. I wish the Leader of the Op position were still here because I just wanted to add very quickly, if I could, that there has been a clear shif t on the part of the First Min isters in Canada to support for lower interest rate and more of a criticism really of the fed­ eral monetary policy than I think would have been the case in the earlier commun iques. MR. G. MERCIER: By how many does the First Minis­ ter intend to expand the Cabinet? HON. H. PAWLEY: I have not decided how many at this stage. All that I do know is that the 14 are doing an excellent job, but 14 is a little on the small side. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, is the First Min ister considering establishing a Department of Intergo­ vernmental Affairs? HON. H. PAWLEY: Not at this stage. As the Memb er for St. Norbert knows, feder al-pr ovincial relations do fall within this department. I'm not at this stage intend­ ing to divide tha t respon sibil ity to a sepa rate department. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c) (1 )- pass; 1. (c)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass: 1.(

d) Go vernment Ho spitality­ pass; 1. (

e) International Development Program-pass. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chairman, has the First Minister got a list of tho se major projects? I don't want the detail of them, but they usual ly break down into items of 20,000 - 30,000 each. Have we a list of wha t tho se programs would be for this expenditure? HON. H. PAWLEY: We can provide last year's. Appar­ ently we've had no submis sion this year. I should also in fairness point out to members that this is the same amount as last year and we will be rev iewing that amount as to some possible revision for next year in reviewing the program. MR. CHAIRM AN: 1. (e) -pass; 1. (

f) French Lang uage Services, 1. (f) ( 1) Salarie s-pass. The Leader of the Op position. HON. S. LYON: Could the First Min ister indicate, Mr . Chairman, in this total vote of $81 ,700 transferred over from Cultural Affairs, wha t was the vote last year for that office when it resided in Cultural Affairs? 3035 HON. H. PAWLEY: There was no vote because it was started in September of 19 81 by the previous govern­ ment and it then rested in the Department of Cultural Affairs and I believe, if I'm correct, that Mr. Roger Turenne and his secretary were both brought on staff in September of '81 . HON. S.

LYON: Is this one of the votes or one of the appropriations, Mr . Chairman, which will see addi­ tional Civil Service establish ment added to it? HON. H. PAWLEY: No, there's no addition contem­ plated in this fiscal year. HON. S. LYON: No addition at all. So the $81 ,000 is for the staff as inherited by the First Minister or as seconded to him from the Department of Cultural Affa irs in December, January or wh enever the case may be? HON. H. PAWLEY: That is correct. MR. CH AIRM AN: 1. (f )

(1) Sala ries-pass; 1. (f )

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; which leads us to Informa­ tion Services, No. 2.; 2.(

a) Sala ries. HON. S. LYON: On Information Services, there's been some reference earlier to Mr . O'Con nor's posi­ tion and the fact that Mr. Donogh in the Information Services is now reporting to the First Min ister through

Thur sday, 3 June, 19 82 Mr. O'Connor. Can the First Min ister give us the ratio­ nale or the reason for that move of Information Servi­ ces from· I believe the Department of Government Ser vices over to his Office? HON. H. PAWLEY: Well, Mr. O'Connor is responsible for overall com munications, including the First Min is­ ter's Office, and it appears to be an arrangement that is worki ng quite satisfactorily. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr. Chairman, that's hardly a rationale.

What was the motivation for changing the departmental structure of Information Services from the Department of Govern ment Services wh ere it had resided for some time over to the Pr emier's Office? HON. H. PAW LEY : Probably to some extent the very same reason that former Premier Weir would have. Com munications in my view is a very central and a very important aspect of gove rnment.

I think that gover nments frequently get thems elves into difficulty not because of the programs but because of commun­ ication and if indeed communication is a priority, then I think that we ought to demo nstrate the importance of information and information service and communica­ tion and that is the reason for transf erring it to the Executive Council. HON. S. LYON: What change in staff has there been in Information Services? I see the vote is sligh tly reduced. The salary vote is up from $4T/ to $490 which is not much. Other Expenditur es are up $1 19 to $13 1 .00. HON. H.

PAWLEY: There's an increase in a Clerk in the Ci tizens Inquiry Service. That is a position that was orig inally occupied but has been borrowed from Consumer and Corporate Affairs. So when Informa­ tion Service was transferred, it was necessary to estab lish the new SMY as Consumer and Corporate Affairs carried on with the use of theirs. HON. S. LYON: And what is the establishm ent break­ down for Information Services at the present time, Mr . Chairman? HON. H. PAWLEY: I'm sorry, I didn't get the question. HON. S. LYON: The establishment breakdown for ... HON. H.

PAWLEY: Could we distribute that in the same way as we did the others? HON. S. LYON: Yes, that's satisfactory. That's com­ ing around now, is it, because I have some questions. HON. H. PAWLEY: I wonder if we could go on to other items and come back to this. Would that be possi ble? HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm agreeable. Any of these catch-up items we can leave till the Minis­ ter's Salar y if that's more convenient. HON. H. PAWLEY: Ok ay. I concur with your submis­ sion, your sugges tion. HON. S. LYON: There may be a disposition, Mr.

Chairman, subject to the First Min ister's wishes to clean up items tonight, leave the Sal ary open and then go at it again the next time the committee meets HON. H. PAWLEY: Monday or tomorrow. HON . S. LYON: . .. and we could pick up tho se items on that occasion if that's agreeable. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(

a) Sala ries-pass. The Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: I'd like to ask the First Min ister, with the change in authority relative to the Informa­ tion Ser vices Branch and the vesting of that authority in the Executive Council Office, if he can tell the committee wha t the role and the autho rity of the Exec utive Council extends to in terms of information? Do es the Executiv e Council or does an officer in the Executive Council, Mr . O'Connor or who mever, make the decision as to what is news and what is not news? MR. CHAIR MAN: Mr. Premier . HON. H.

PAWLEY: No, that responsibility would still be the Min ister's as to whether or not they approved any particular Information Service release or not. Min­ isters are required to give approval, so that responsi­ bility still must ultimately rest with the Mi nister as to whether any given release is issued at any time. MR. L.

SHERM AN: So that individual items of com­ munication or information or news emanating from the govern ment for dissemination to the public of Manit oba do not originate or are not initiated by the officer in the Executive Council Office who is in charge of Information Services, is that correct? HON. H. PAWLEY: Sometime s it does initiate and then it's forwarded to the Minis ter for the Min ister's approval, or the Minister will contact Information Ser­ vices to prepare a given release on the Minister's behalf. That's been the practice, I believe, for 26 years and there's been no change in that practice. 3036 MR.

L. SHERM AN: Is there any change in the role of the Dir ector of Information Servic es, Mr. No rm Donogh, wher e that function of identifying news and determining news is concerned? HON. H. PAWLEY: No, there has been no change in that. MR. L. SHER MAN: So that Mr. Donogh still has a function and a responsibility for sugges ting to the government and to the various Min istries what is truly of news value and what should be covered and dis­ sem inated from a news and jou rnalistic point of view and he participates in the determination of that sub­ ject matter? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Yes, th ere's been no change insofar as the guidelines that had been followed. Ther e's been no ne w dir ectives or chang es in procedure.

Thursday, 3 June, 19 82 MR. L. SHER MAN: Thank you. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Mem ber for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY : Mr . Chairman, the First Minister on February 26th through the Information Services, which were under discussion, put out a press release stating that his government would co-operate closely with the beef producers to develop a reasonable provincial approach to assist in the stabilizing of Ma nitoba':> livestock industry and tha t they would do so in t'1e absence of a federal beef stabilization program. In view of that statement, Mr .

Chairman, would the First Mi nister not have been held in a little better light at this particular time with the beef producers and the farm community if in fact prior to that, and possibly the First Min ister can corr ect me if I'm wron g, on November 5th, which was prior to the election, that he was visiting one of his constituent's farms wh ere in fact HON. H. PAWLEY: No, it wasn't in my constituency, if I could just correct the honourable member. MR. J.

DOWN EY: Maybe the press were incorrect, but it was at the farm of Walter Bodnarus in the area just north of the City of Winnipeg, I believe possibly in the Gimli area- maybe not in his constituency - but the now Premier at that particular time is quoted in the Winnipeg Free Press as of Novem ber 5th by Ingeborg Boyens. Mr.

Pawley concluded these efforts by - and I'll quote from the Press article: "Pawley gave the farmers his assurance that an NDP Government would come to their aid quickly with an income assur­ ance program similar to Saskatchewan's. 'I don't mean by that, dragging it into months and into years,' he said." Mr. Chairman, to further challenge the F:irst Minister or ask him the question of why he would come out with such misleading statements to an industry that he had given such assurances HON. H.

PAWLEY: Excuse me, just on a point of order, and I don't want to make it difficult for the member, but I do have to ask whether or not this item would not be best left till Mo nday. I think it's clearly out of order under Information Services. MR. J. DOWN EY: Mr . Chairman, I'm referring to a News Service item that was put out on February 26th by Information Services, an area which we are dis­ cussing. If the Premier is somewhat sensitive to this line of discussion . HON. H. PAWLEY: No, not at all. I just don't want MR. J. DOWNEY : . . .

I could see why, because of the misleading statements that the Premier is finding himself having made. I won't take too many minutes, Mr . Chairman, but I would like to have the Premier's response to his assurance to the beef industry. Again, Mr. Chairman, following on the same line, his Minister of Agriculture on January 8th in a report in the Brandon Sun again indicated, and this was the 8th of January, that "the province will have to go ahead with its own program to aid beef producers if no fed- eral plans are revealed in the next month to six weeks." This, Mr .

Chairman, to the Premier, again indicates that therein the month of February would in fact have a support program. Mr . Chairman, I'm wondering why the Premier now to this point has not given instructions to his Min ister of Agriculture to get off the hang-up that he's had with th ree principles of changing the operation of the beef cattle producers' operation by forcing them to feed out cattle, by forcing them to market through a central marketing agency and sign up for six years.

I would hope that in light of the election promise and the election pledge that he wasn't going to allow it to drag into months and years, that in light of the facts that we're now looki ng at, that's in fact happened, and he has broken the confidence that he should have with the farm com munity, as the Premier has admitted in many of his statements and speeches that ag riculture is the back bone of the provin ce. He has now broken that trust as the Premier and I think, Mr. Chairman, that the farm community deserves better than that. I would like the Premier's response, Mr.

Ch airman, in light of the fact that he was going to give immediate assistance to the beef industry and in fact was elected by some beef producers in certain areas on that pledge. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the Mem ber for Arthur whe ther or not the first Information Service release he was reading from was my release or was it the Minister of Agriculture's release? MR. J. DOW NE Y: No, Mr. Chairman, it was Febru ary 26t h. It was the Premier. It 's headed: "Str ength in Farm Programs Planned.

Restrictions are Proposed on Absentee Owne rs." It's dealing with the Throne Speech and respecting absentee ownership: "Pr emier Pawley had noted in February." Then we turn it over and we again refer to statements made by the Premier. It is specifically, I wou ld say, a press release that is directed from the Premier's Office because the Pre­ mier is quoted in the press release. As well, Mr. Chairman, respecting absentee ownership, "Prem ier Howard Pawley had noted, in a February 22nd speech to the dairy producers or dairy association ...

" You know, it's all referring to statements made by the Pre­ mier, so I would think, Mr . Chairman, that he wou ld want to back up his statement that he made coming through Information Services. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, the state ment relates to the Throne Speech and I must congratulate the Member for Arth ur of his stretching the rules in some way to ensure that he can discuss the Throne Speech in the reference to the Beef Sta bilization Pro­ gram during the Information Services Item in the Estimates of the Executive Council.

I don't mind dis­ cussing it with the member, but I'm wondering if the member wou ld concur with me it migh t be just more reasonable and I'm looking at the Mem ber for Virden who is a pretty solid stickler for rules, if we wouldn't be better to deal with it under the Min ister's Sal ary. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Mem ber for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Se eing as how I was asked, Mr. 3037

Thur sday, 3 June, 19 82 Chairman, if it comes under a bulletin from the Infor­ mation Services, I think it should be discussed now. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, I am disappointed. I had a lot of confidence that the Memb er for Vir den would apply the rules in this instance quite objec­ tively. Mr . Chairman, I'm prepared to respond if it's indeed your wish that I enter into discussion under this item. MR.

CHAIRM AN: I'm wonderi ng if it could wait until the Min ister's Salary, then we could discuss it all and have a wide-r anging discussion and we could move on with the other articles that are left in the Estimates. MR. J. DOWNEY : Well, I appreciate the First Min is­ ter's concern and I also respect his request to the Mem ber for Vir den to make a ruling on it seeing as he's having difficulty. -(I nterjection)- MR. CHAIR MAN: Or der. Mr. Pr emier. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, I wonder if I could help the memb er out.

I don't want to break the rules and on the other hand I want to help the member so we can discuss this item. Maybe the information release he's referring to was my speech to the Dairy Conven­ tion rather than the Throne Speech. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I've given the date, I can ... HON. H. PAWLEY: But it would state there in the Information Services Release whether it's the Dairy Convention or the Throne Speech. The date of the Dairy Convention apparently was released on both, so I think that I could respond to the question by the fact that it's in reference to the Dairy Convention.

So I think we can all rest a little bit more content. I'm satisfied that the Min ister of Agriculture is doing quite a satisfactory job in what was co mmitted during the campaign in respect to the establishment of a Beef St abilization Program. The com mitment that indeed we provided to Manitobans was very clear and I regret that it's not as clear as it should be to the Memb er for Arth ur. That is the Member for Arthu r's problem, Mr . Chairman.

The New Democratic Party was going to pursue policies to bring about prosperity to Manitoba farms and our commitment was to sit down immediately with the beef producers of Manitoba. Now, within a very early stage after the swe aring in November 30th, the Min ister of Agriculture did this very thing. He commenced to meet with the beef producers in the Province of Man itoba and to do what indeed was promised, to sit down with the livestock producers immediately after the election to discuss and to implement the kind of support program that will per­ mit producers to continue production.

I'm reading from a statement October 22nd. I believe that the Minister of Agricu lture has lived up to that commitment and it's my understanding from what I have been hearing that indeed there is some sign ifi­ cant progress under way. Now, it's true that the Min is­ ter of Agricu lture has had to pick something up after many many months of neglect by the previous Min is- ter of Agriculture during the previous Conservative administration, but I think under the circumstances in six shor t months he's made tremendous progress after what he's had to follow. -(I nterjection)- MR. CHAIR MAN: Or der. MR. J.

DOWNEY : Mr. Chairman, with a response like that I would think that the Premier should take a cou­ ple or three days to do a little bit more research instead of just sho oting off the should er like he has and coming out with that kind of irresponsible state­ ment, because I think that the farm com munity is passing judg ment and we will continue, as the responsibility of an Op position, to point out tho se areas wh ere we think improvements can be made.

I would hope that the Premier would take the time until he gets to his Sal ary to reassess the statement that he'd made and go over some of the earlier statements as a First Min ister. One other area, Mr. Chairman - the Premier has answered some questions dealing with the Constitu­ tion - this is one which is again pretty much a concern of the farm community and that's on the right of Can­ adian people or rights of Man itobans to have the right to land ownership.

I would ask if the Premier of Manit­ oba's position is along that line of the Federal Leader of the New Demo cratic Party who voted down the righ t to own property that was proposed by, I guess it was led by J. G.aplin, Constitutional Commit tee in the Ho use of Commons, when in fact there was an amendment to the Ch arter of Righ ts that in fact the Canadian people would have the right to own prop­ erty entrenched in that Bill of Rig hts. I would like the Premier's response to that particular question. In fact, seeing he has answered on some of the ... HON. H.

PAWLEY: It's not an item that I expect that I'll be required to deal with during this fiscal year, in fact, during our term. I'm not aware of any Constitutional Conference contemplated to deal with that subject. I know that when the previous Conservative Govern­ ment was in office in Man itoba, they opposed the insertion of that clause and certainly we've had no -(I nterjection)- well, yes, which would have included that clause. -(I nterjection)- Mr. Chair man, you can't have it both ways. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. HON. H.

PAWLEY: The Leader of the Op position has interjected about opposing the whole clause but what the former Min ister of Agriculture is trying to is to find out if we wou ld support thi s property right provision. I said that the previous gove rnment opposed that. The Leader of the Opp osition is correct, they opposed a Charter totally. So the members can't have it both ways; either they oppose all entrenched rights or they can't suddenly pull out property rights and attempt to champion the need for property rights in the Constitu­ tion. -(I nterjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Or der. 3038 MR. J.

DOWNEY: I want to make it very clear. I, as well, was in the same position to oppose the very

Thursday, 3 June, 19 82 principle of entrenching a Ch arter of Ri gh ts in our Constitution. Under the previous Conservative Gov­ ernment in the Province of Manitoba there was the confidence of the people in the common law system in this country and the belief that we had through our legis lativ e prote ctio n, the right to owner sh ip -(Int erjection)- Well, Mr . Chairman, when we are dealing in the Province of Manitoba, the Minister of Agriculture -(Int erjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Or der. I think we are way off tr.e Estimates at this point. I know it's off, so MR. J.

DOWNEY : If the First Mi nister is somewhat a little touchy about talking about ownersh ip and that type of thing, I'm prepared to pass the particular sec­ tion and deal with it under his Salar y. Pos sibly, he will at that particular time tell us what his position is on the owner ship of land in the Prov ince of Man itoba as it relates to the right to own property. HON. H. PAWLEY: It's clearly out of order under this section, Mr . Chairman. HON. S. LYON: On that point, Mr.

Chairman, I didn't insert the explanatory notes, but under Information Services if one is able to and wants to read it, it says, "provides Manitobans with a knowledge of govern­ ment programs." The memb er in question is asking about a government program. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, could I maybe respond to the Leader of the Op position? It's not a government program. HON. S. LYON: We are well aware that private prop­ erty is not a government program. HON. H. PAWLEY: It wasn't a govern ment program dur ing the previous Conservative administration to advocate this particular provision.

I, frankly, have not spent any time in looking at the pros and cons of this particular issue and I don't feel the compelling need, when we have many other much more compelling concerns at this point, for me to sit down and to spend hours examining the worth or not of the constitution­ ality of the proposed provision that the Memb er for Arthur would sugg est. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) -pass; 2.(b) -pass; 2.(

c) Acquisition/Construction-pass. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chairman, under (b), what is rec­ overable from Canada? What wou ld that arise fr om, $57,300? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, half of the Citizens Inquiry Service and I gather this has been a continu­ ing recovery, year by year. MR. CHAIRMA N: 2.(b) -pass. Resolution No. 6. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $622,000 for Execu­ tive Council for Information Services for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 83-pass. MR. CHAIRM AN: That moves us on to No. 3., Adver­ tising Audit Office. 3.(

a) Salar ies. The Leader of the Op position. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, could the Fi rst Mi nis­ ter tell us who are the members of the Advertising Audit Com mittee and who is the chairman of that group? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Dan O'Con nor, Allan Cohen, Margue rite Sim ons and in each case wh ere it flows from a department, a departmental representative. HON. S. LYON: I take it then that Mr . . HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. O'Connor is the Ch airperson. HON. S. LYON: Mr. O'Con nor is the Chairman. Mr . Chairman, this is the same Mr .

Dan O'Con nor who is the Commu nications and Co-ord inations Secretary for the Premier to whom the Information Services Branch of government now reports and Mr. O'Con nor, you're telling us, is also the Chairman of the govern­ ment's Advertising Audit Comm ittee? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, does the First Minister not feel that this represents a collection of tremend­ ous power in the hands of one politically appointed bureaucrat, who is th ere because of his political affili­ ations, to do the audit job as well as to have the Infor­ mation Services report to him?

Does the Fi rst Minister not feel that there is some danger of political propa­ ganda seeping not only from Information Services, but into the Audit Branch as well? HON. H. PAWLEY: Maybe I should point out to the Leader of the Op position that Mr . O'Connor replaced Don Leitch, who was a P.C. appointment also in charge of policy co-ord ination. HON. S. LYON: He was in charge of polic y co­ ordination. He was not a communications man; he is an economist. HON. H. PAWLEY: But he was a Progressive Conser­ vative appointment to chair this particular comm ittee. 3039 HON. S.

LYON: Of course, yes he did, but he did not have the Information Services. He was not the propa­ ganda Czar that this Minister has created out of Mr. O'Con nor. Could my honour able friend, Mr. Chair­ man, the First Minister, tell us why he is creating this propaganda Czardom in Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, the Leader of the Op position had answered the question about 30 or 45 minutes ago. He recognized and I recognized the competency of Mr . O'Con nor an