Manitoba Hansard — 3 October 1988 (Sitting 49A, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-49a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 49A - 1:30 p.m., MOND AY, OCTOBER 3, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY ALCOCK, Reg Os borne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Sieve Thompson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR, James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkir k CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOP YSKI, William Burrows CONNER Y, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN, Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Robli n-Russell DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Ni akwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Aiel EDWARDS, Paul St. Jame s ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Virden GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Min nedosa GRAY, Avis Ellice HAMMO ND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MA LOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed Assinib oia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITC HELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pem bina PANKRATZ, Helmul La Verendrye PATTE RSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Spring field ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASY LYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBER AL LIB ERAL NDP PC LIBER AL LIB ERAL LIBER AL LIB ERAL LIB ERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIB ERAL PC LIBE RAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LI BERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBER AL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIB ERAL LIBER AL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBER AL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, October 3, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS ORAL QUESTION PERIOD McEwen Building Reopening Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): My question is for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). The psychiatry wing at St. Boniface Hospital has been closed for renovation for the last few months and, when it closed, the number of beds for psychiatric patients in Manitoba was reduced to 46. This had caused serious problems for other hospitals.

For example, the shortage of psychiatry beds has resulted on a number of occasions at Health Sciences Centre where a suicidal patient had to stay in the Observation Unit for at least two days . My question is for the Minister of Health . When will the McEwen Building reopen? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I want to thank my honourable friend for the question regarding the supply of acute care psychiatric beds in our community and teaching hospitals .

Now, as all Manitobans know and certainly as all Members of this House know , the acute care psychiatric bed situation was extremely critical this summer with the closing of the McEwen Building . A week ago Friday, I met with the heads of psychiatry from the teaching and community hospitals to discuss in general terms the summer 's experience because we had gone through a summer of need with reduced bed numbers and hopefully some of the lessons learned, the initiatives taken during the summer, will prove beneficial over the long haul.

I want to take this opportunity to offer, on behalf of the Governmen t and certainly the Legislature and indeed Manitobans, a sincere thank you to those psychiatrists and heads of psychiatry working in the teaching hospitals , the community services hospitals, for their very dedicated cooperation over the summer months to bring us through a very trying period of time. *

(1335) Mr. Cheema: My question has still not been answered . My supplementary, again to the same Minister, when the McEwen Build ing was under renovation , there were only two beds at St. Boniface Hospital for these patients. These beds are on a medical floor on an open area , and these beds cannot accommodate patients who are certified, who are suicidal, or those patients who are violent . My question is this: is this situation acceptable to this Minister and , secondly , what was the conclusion of his discussion with the various head of departments last Friday? Mr.

Orchard: I think it is fair to say in answer to my honourable friend's question that the temporary circumstances that were used by both the teachi ng and the community hospitals to get us through a difficult period of time with the renovations of the McEwen Building were temporary, and certainly over the long run would not be the kind of delivery program that we would rely on. But clearly , circumstances were not such that we had too many options. That is why the cooperation of the psychiatrists, the head of psychiatry and the community hospital psychiatrists was so important to get us over that summer period.

With the renovations nearing completion, it is expected that very shortly the McEwen Building will be reopened and in service with its bed compliment available once again to providing acute care psychiatric beds. Permanent Closure Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): My supplementary again to the same Minister , in the last election campaign, this Government promised that there will be no bed closures, and that was the end of the story. Will the Minister tell us today if he is considering the permanent closure of these 46 beds at St. Boniface Hospital? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): No.

Psychiatrists Shortage Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): With a new question to the same Minister , mental health in Manitoba is in a sorry state, and the Minister should be aware of that . Health Sciences Centre has been without a Chairman of Psychiatry for the last four years , but more of a concern to Manitoba is the fact that a patient who was violent , a patient who was schizophrenic was at St. Boniface in the emergency room for five days because of lack of beds. That incidence just occurred last week . My question is to the Minister : will he tell us if Manitoba is still short of 38 psychiatrists ? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : I am somewhat troubled by my honourabl e friend's questions. Certainly , with the closing of the McEwen Building, there were circumstances in terms of a number of examples where unusual treatment and unusual admittance circumstances had to be undertaken because we simply had 56 beds closed for renovations. That led to circumstances which I believe anyone in the community of the teaching hospitals would not have 1767

Monday, October 3, 1988 considered to be optimum circumstances. However, as I said earlier on, the cooperat ion between the hospitals, between the heads of psychiatry got us through with considerable personal effort and sacrifice on their parts, and their staff's part to which we all owe them thanks. Mr. Speaker, the circumstances were not ideal. The method of problem resolution was not the normal because they sim ply did not have their normal complement of acute care beds. We did with a lot of cooperation get through the summer months.

Certainly, circumstances of that were unusual because of the closure ought not to be repeated with the open ing of the renovated McEwen Building. * (13 40) Brandon Mental Health Centre Staffing Mr. Gulzar Cheema (Kildonan): My supplement ary question again to the same Minister, can the Min ister tell us how many psychiatrists are practising at the Brandon Mental Health Centre-tha t is the 300 bed facility? Hon. Donald Orchard (Min ister of Health): The answer to the question I think my honourable friend already knows. We have no permanent psychiatrists at Brandon Mental Centre.

A circumstance which has existed during the time that my honourable friends were in Government previous to that for periods of time whi lst the Lyon Government was in office, previous to tha t while the Schreyer Government was in office, previ ous to that whilst the Weir Government was office, previous to that while- 1 presume we could even get back to the Campbell days of Government. The circumstance of permanent psychiatric recruitment to Brandon has been a difficulty challenging all Governments. We have had heads of psychiatry take residence in Brandon for periods of time, providing very valuable service. Mr.

Speaker: Order. Mr. Orchard: lt has not been a continu ous circumstance that has been available to us. Psychiatrists Shortage Mr. Gu lzar Ch eema (K ildonan): My fina l supplemen tary again to the same Min ister-a nd I hope to get some answers here- will the Minis ter of Health tell us what he is doing to correct the intolerable situation? Maybe our Premier would like to answer this question? Hon. Gary Filmon (Prem ier): What is the question? Mr. Cheema: I will repeat it for you. The question is, Mr.

Minis ter, what steps are you tak ing to correct this into lerable situation: lack of schedules and lack of the mental health manpo wer shortage in Manitoba-the 38 psychiatrists that are short? I do not have to repeat the question three ti mes. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): The one thing we are not going to do is indicate to the psychiatric profession and the med ical profession in general, as did my prede cessor, that if they do not lik e it in Manitoba, they can leave.

As a result, psychiatrists left this province because of the frustrations that had built up over inactivity in the renovating and deliveri ng and revamping of the mental health system in the Provi nce of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker , since assuming office some four to five months ago, mental health has taken a considerable focus of time with in my office.

I am hopeful that my honourable friend will at least give some credit when we get to the Estima te discussion on mental health, with some of the prog ress that is made in revamping the mental health system in the Provi nce of Manitoba for the first time in many, many years. Child and Family Services Program Reductions Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Oppo sition): My question is to the Min ister responsible for the Treasury Board and deals with the Depart ment of Commun ity Services, the Child and Family Services Branch of the department.

In this Cham ber and in the Ho use, the Min ister has stated time and time again that there are no program cuts in the Child and Famil y Services division, there will be no Government measures that will lead to layoffs, and all ongoing program s will be honoured.

In light of the fact that nothing came out of the meet ing last Frida y with the Min ister with the agencies, and the agencies are comp letely bewildered in terms of what the Government polic y will be in terms of Child and Fam ily Services and where their programs stand, would the Min ister responsible for the Treasury Board please confirm now that there will be measures that the Government has taken that will reduce services, reduce services to children and will reduce staffing of programs in these agencies? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , no, I will not confirm that.

In fact, the situation is that since the former NDP Government set up the commun ity- based, decentralized system of child welfare in Winnipeg, there have been chronic deficits run year after year by virtually all of these decentralized agencies. Th at is a serious problem and one that we as a Government have inhe rited and are tryi ng to address in a form that is a posit ive form . The Leader of the New Democratic Party should know because he had one of his staff sitt ing in on my talk to the Social Planning Council last Wednesday noon, I belie ve it was, in which I said to -(lnterje ction) Thur sday, yes.

I said at that time we would not let tho se agencies get into difficulty for lack of funding, tha t we would do everything possible to ensure that they were able to deliver the services that were demanded upon them. Mr. Speaker, we rec ognize though that it is not a short-term, quic k-fix issue. The Leader of the New demo cratic Party may think so. If so, he is turning a 1768

Monday, October 3, 1988 blind eye to fact that they had chronic deficit problems every year that they ope rated from the time tha t they were set up by the New Democratic Pa rty in Government. We are trying to solve the problem for the longer term, not just cope with the situation based on the fact that they once again this fall are put in a crisis situation- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Filmon: -b ecause of the lack of funding provided by the former Go ve rnment and the lack of admin istration and the overall way in which they were set up. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Sp eaker, there is only one group of people who are turning a blind eye to the problems in the Child and Fam ily Services agencies, and that is this Government , this Tory Government opposite, in terms of their action. I would like to table a letter today that was sent to the Department of Commun ity Services deal ing with Child and Fam ily Services in Wi nnip eg West. In fact, an area that is in the Premier's own constituency where they clearly outlined that (

a) there is a reduction in the money- Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Memb er have a question? Mr. Doer: -r educ tion in resources, reduction in services. My question to the First Min ister -(Interjection) ! am coming to it. Mr. Speaker: Will the Honour able Mem ber kindly put his question now? • (1 345) Mr. Doer: Yes, in light of this letter, would the Fi rst Min ister please agree to reinstate the funding for prevention programs and mai ntenance programs that were in those Budgets that is now bei ng cut-the mo ney is being cut? Would he meet with his Min ister of Com muni ty Services and Corrections (Mrs.

Oleson) and get this thing back on the road so the children will not have their staff cut contrary to the Min ister's promis e and services cut in terms of the Province of Manitoba, in terms of the Child and Fam ily Servic es division? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Sp eaker, every one of those agencies the overall funding to child welfare in this province has been increased by our admin istration and our Budget. They have serious difficultie s. The legacy of the NDP admin istration of ma ny, many years has left them in very serious difficulti es.

They have problems that are chronic, that are not ju st as a result of the last few months. They have problems to do with admin istration ; they have problems to do with the man ner in which those boards are set up, the abil ity to admin ister adequately and properly all of the thin gs that they have been charged to do 1769 and the way in which this decentralized operat ion was formed on an ad hoc basis by the pr evious admin istration. We are looking at the long term, Mr. Sp eaker.

We are going to ensure that we deal with the problem so that we do not have a crisis every fall, every fall, every fall, the way it has been as a result of the way it was set up by this previous NDP admin istration. Prevention Programs Mr. Speaker: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Concordia, with a supp lementary question. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Oppo sition): Mr. Speaker , my question to the First Min ister (Mr.

Film on) is, in light of the fact that his Minister has said that there would be no cuts in staff, in ligh t of the fact the Government has said there will be no reduction in preventativ e programs, in light of the fact that the Fi rst Min ister said there would be no cut in mo ney and this document clearly shows that there is, would the Fi rst Min ister please meet with his Min ister of Commun ity Services and Corrections (Mrs.

Oleson) as Minis ter responsible for the Treasury Board, and please deal with the issues facing children on a crisis basis who are at risk according to the experts that are in the field deliveri ng the services to the children of this province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Mem ber full well kno ws that our Budget has provided a 9 percent increase for Com mun ity Services, 9.1 percent. The Memb er full well kno ws that his former Government had created a system that was so ineffective in the way in which they set up the admin istration.

On an ad hoc basis, they trie d desperately to decentralize without forming a proper adminis trative structure and they have caused serious long-term problems with the delivery of child welfare services in this province. We are going to set about systematically and very carefully to solve tho se problems, but they will not be done overnight. I tell you they will not be done by the way in which he is raising the problem as a political issue, rather than taking the responsibil ity which he clearly should for the ineffective actions of his admin istration. Mr. Doer: Mr. Sp eak er, again the Fi rst Min ister (Mr.

Filmon) imp ugns motiv es- An Honour able Member: Without a pream ble, that is the rule. Mr. Doer: Mr. Sp eaker, I think the Fi rst Mini ster doth protest too much on this very im portant issue. lt is a very serious issue. The document that I am tabling that the Fi rst Min ister, as responsible for Treasury Board, should be aware of in light of the activity of his office clearly demonstrates that - Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: -t he prevention budget is bei ng cut. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: I would ask the Fi rst Min ister and Mi nister responsible for the Treasury Board (Mr. Filmon) why is

Monday, October 3, 1988 his Government afraid to invest money in prevention at the child welfare level where we know that all studies show that a dollar spent on prevention is worth thousands of dollars later on in terms of care? Why is this Government cutting back prevention with volunteers in the community, hurting the children of this city? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speake r, we will be making that investment . We have indicated our commitment with a 9.1 percent increase in Commun ity Services in Manitoba. The Member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer) is attempting to make a political issue of this when he knows full well when he was the prnsident of the MGEA and the Government decided to unscramble the eggs , so to speak , and decentralize all these services without having a proper administrative base, without having this kind of accountability put in place, he said it was a recipe for disaster at that time . His words are being proven to be correct now and we are faced with solving the problem and we are committed to solving the problem. *

(1350) Child and Family Ser·vices Act Revised Legislation Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , my question is for the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Abuse of children by third parties is prevalent in our society. Child abuse is not confined to the home. Children come into regula r contact with adults and children and their parent s and their siblings, and it is disturbing enough that we have these incidents that result in abuse, whic h are left unreported by children because, unfortunately, they fear the consequences.

It is, however , unpardonable that when a child in distress does report an incident of abuse to a person in authority, such a person turns a deaf ear to that child. The Attorney-General's office appare ntly is powerless to deal with school officials who fail to repor t incidents of sexual abuse that are other than conducted by the parent or guardian. My questions is will the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) introduce immediately legislation amending The Child and Family Services Act, in order to make it mandatory that teachers and other profess ionals report incidents of abuse by persons, other than parents or guardians, and that this legislation would include abu se performed by other children or by teachers ? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I concu r wholeheartedly with the Leader of the Oppos ition that this is a serious issue that should be acted upon.

The Leader of the Opposit ion probably knows full well that we, on this side of the House, assumed because we were told by the previous administration tha t is exactly what the law required. She can imagine how surprised we were to find out that is not the case and that the law has a so-called loophole that does not allow us to ensure that those people are obliged to report child abuse cases. So, Mr. Speaker, my Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) has asked his department for an opinion as to how we can best fill that loophole imme diat ely and act upon it in this Session.

As soon as we have that report, we will be bringing it forward in the form of legislation . Mrs. Carstairs: Thank you , Mr. Speaker, and I can assure the Minister and Attorney-General that we will suppo rt such legislation . Child Abuse Guidelines for Teachers Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition) : My sup plementary question is to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derk ach). Can the Minister tell the House what procedures or guidelines are in place or will he put in place immediately to ensure that all incidents of sexual assaults in the schools are dealt with expeditiously?

For example, the immediate invest igation of such an abuse and the counselling of the student s who have faced that abuse? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I would have to indicate , Mr. Speaker , that this department and the teachers in the province are aware of the procedures that are to be followed at tim es when a sexu al abuse case has been reported to them , or when they become aware of that kind of a situation . When that kind of a situation occurs , when the abuse is repo rted, then that situation is handled through the appropriate authorities .

I think that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstai rs) knows full well the kinds of guidelines and the kinds of procedu res that are in place to deal with these matters. With regard to investigating matters by this department, if it is a situation where a teacher is found to be the guilty party, then it is up to my department to immediately move on the certificate of that teacher, and if suffic ient evidence is in place that inappropriate behaviour has resulted , then this department has the responsibili ty of either suspending or revoking that teacher 's certificate.

We are proceeding according to the guidelines in each and every case th at has come to my attention at this time. Mrs. Carstairs : Mr. Speaker, with a supplementary to the Minister of Education. Will the Ministe r of Education agree today to contact all school divisions in the Provinc e of Man ito ba and to reinforce for them the importance of the immediate investigation of any complaint by a child within that school division and immediately gu arantee that child counselling and support? Mr.

Derkach: I guess some of the newspaper report s that we have seen through the weekend would ind icate that perhaps there is a need to write to the school divisions and again reiterate the kind of legislation that is in place and the fact that they must adhere to it. That is no problem. We have already made that decision that we should reiterate with school divisions the kind of legislation that is in place , so that they will follow it accordingly . To this time , in all the matters that are before us, it is evident that school divisions, to my knowledge, have followed the procedures correctly. • (1355) 1770

Monday, October 3, 1988 Child Abuse Investigation Private School Mrs. lva Yeo (St urgeon Creek): Recently we have heard of a tragic situation in one of our pri vate schools involvi ng assault and sexual abuse of at least th ree young female students by one of the male students. That in itself is a mo st unfortunate situation, but what made this entir e case even mo re incredulous is the fact that school officials were aware of the assaults for almost a year and took no action to either inform the parents or assist the girls.

Will the Min ister of Education plan to extend his propo sed inquir y to include a simi lar situation involving an abusing teacher transferred from a public high school to the Winnip eg Development Centre, wherein the potentially disturbed teacher is working with disturbed children? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Min ister of Education): I would lik e to inform the House and to inform the Mem ber for Stu rgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) that there is a review or an investigation into the private school matter ongoing.

I think I reported this to the House last week that there is a comm ittee that has been set in place to investigate the detai ls of the situation in the private school. Mr. Speaker , if you talk about the newspaper

article on the weekend and the procedures that were followed there, it is clear that perhaps the newspaper

article was not accurate in the way that the information did come about. In fact, there are two situations there: one situation which occurred back in 19 86 which had noth ing to do with sexual abuse; and one which came to light and to the division's attention, as of the beginning of June of this year, which was dealt with in the appropria te matter. I have met with the officials of Commu nity Services and my staff, and procedures were followed in accordance to the way that the legislation is laid out. So, to date, I think we have followed the guideli nes according ly.

School Accountability Mrs. lva Yeo (Stur geon Creek): Believi ng tha t the Minis ter of Education truly meant his statement, that his responsibi lit y is to ensure that all childr en in Manitoba receive the best education avai lable, will the Hono urable Min ister now review criteria for accountabil ity of independent schools to ensure greater protect ion to our vulnerable young citizens? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Min ister of Education): Yes, I think that is an impo rtant issue. Not only does it pertain to the independent schools but it also pertai ns to all our schools in the province.

I think that we have to review the legislation as it is written now. I think we have to take a look at the loopholes that might exist. We have to correct those kinds of things that perhaps are allowing cases to slip through the cracks. Mr. Speaker , I have to indicate to you and to the House that this Government is very interested in making sure that there are no loopholes, that children in this province are protect ed. We will do everything we can to make 1771 the public school system and the independent school system accountable. Mr s. Yeo: We, on this side of the House, are pleased with that statement.

Reporting Guidelines Mrs. lva Veo (Stur geon Creek): Will the Min ister of Education tell the House of his intention to develop a blueprint that will detail the steps that teachers and adminis trators must follow in order that parents and the Child Protection Centre will be imm ediately informed should children in the schools be victims of abuse? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): This is a new area, I guess, of concern. lt is not a new area but it certainly has come to light in recent times, whereby we have mo re evidence of children coming forth and indicating that they have been abused in one way or another. I think the legislation that was put in place, Mr. Speaker, was done with the best intentions, and I think when legislation like this is tried that we beg in to realize where some of the looph oles are and where some of the inadequacies are. Tha t is what we have to address at this time.

We have real ized where the re ma y be some shortcomi ngs. I think that has been alluded to by the Premier when he indicated that there is a loophol e that we have to correct im mediately, and we will be reviewing the entir e legisla tion to ensure tha t in fact the approp riate procedures are followed so that we, in the end, will protect all the children that attend our school system in this province. * (14 00) PCBs Thompson Site Hon. Edward Connery (Min ister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Last Tuesday, the Mem ber for The Pas (Mr.

Harapiak) asked a question regarding PCBs stored at Thom pson and I would read part of his question. He said, "I have recen tly received a call that there were six barrels of PCBs stored in a yard by a skip dump loading site at the T1 Head Loading Frame at lnco in Thompson ." In actual fact there were 10 barrels. The reason that they were there-the y were in a locked safe compo und-w as a transformer that was down and had to be drained and the oil was put into the barrels. Mr.

Sp eaker, the safety people out there realized that the barrels they were using were only 18 gauge and they wanted to have 16 gauge barrels, and so it was decided that the best thing to do was to hold the barrels in that safe locked compound until the new barrels came in and then they will transfer them to the new barrels and take them out to their site some 45 mi les out of town.

Monday, October 3, 1988 Child AbusEi Information Withheld Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): My question is to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). Mr. Speaker, on September 23, I raised the issue of whether charges were going to be laid against the administration of the school in question with respect to the child abuse , the sexual assault, I should say, which was occurring in that private school.

My question to the Minister of Education is why could he not tell me at that time that, in fact, charges would not be laid; why could he not tell this House that in fact the Governm ent had a plan to correct any of the problems that existed in the legislation ; why did it take him some almost two weeks before we have a response to those questions? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I was not holding any information back from the Honourable Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) and he well knows that. I think any information I had at the time was laid before the House and before him . Right now, Mr.

Speaker, we have a two-person review committee that is in place-an investigati on committee that is in place-that is investiga ting the details with regard to the alleged abuse case in the school, or the case that was reported in the pri vate school. Until that investigation is complete, and until I have the information from that investigation, I cannot stand before this House , or anywhere else, and make assumptions as to what, in fact, that investigati on is going to reveal.

I think it is only appropriate that we wait until that investigation is complete and , once that is in, I will be happy to report to the House, and to anyone else, what the findings of that report are. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable ME!mber for Flin Flon , with a supplementary question. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) had a modicum of common sense, he would know that there is a problem when an abuse like this can appear and there is no legal recourse for the Minister of Education or the Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae) . Child Abuse Guidelines Private Schools Mr.

Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr.

Speaker, my follow up question to the Minister of Education is-he is suggesting in his comment that somehow the Department of Educat ion and this Minister has this situation under control amongst the oth er private schools who are not publicly funded , of which there are dozens and dozens-will the Minister now expand this inquiry that he indicates is ongoing with respect to this one incident and review the matter of the obligations, the public accountability of private schools in this province, which are not known to the Minister, which are not reviewed on a re,gular basis by the Department of Education and, contrary to the Minister 's assertion, are not under his control, direct or indirect?

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, this is far too serious a matter for me, as Minister of Education, and to this Government to be playing politics with. Although the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) would like to make this kind of a political , attractive issue for himself , I have to tell you that I just answered the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) with regard to the process and the steps that we are taking with regard to accountability both for the public and the private schools in this province .

The Member for Flin Flon is anti independent schools and has made that evident since he started in this House and asking questions and making allegations. I do not find this to be politically attractive in the way that he is approaching this topic. Mr. Storie: On a point of order . Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, on a point of order. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education (Mr. • Derkach) is clearly trying to impute motives, my motives , with respect to raising this issue. I would ask the Minister to withdraw them.

They are unparliamentary , they are offensive to myself and the y do not reflect the facts. Mr. Speaker: Orde r, please . The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, with a final supplementary question . Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) says he cannot stand before this House and give assurances where none exist. He has been giving false assurances to the people of Manitoba. There are thousands of students attending private schools which are not following the regulations.

My question to the Minister of Education is will the Minister tell this House whether he can provide evidence to support his contention that teachers in private schools , administrators, are familiar with the guidelines that the public schools have followed in every instance to avoid problems like the one we are referencing with respect to St. Charles Academy? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. POINT OF ORDER Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader , on a point of order . Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): A point of order, Mr. Speaker. In his question , the Honourable Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) referred to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach), stating that he has been giving false assurances . I think if the Honourable Member thinks about that particular expression, he will understand and realize that it probably is an unparliamentary expression. I would ask through you, Mr. Speaker, that the Honourable Member remove those words from the record and withdraw them . 1772

Monday, October 3, 1988 Mr. Speaker: I would lik e to thank the Honourable Government House Leader. If the Ho nourable Mem ber tor Flin Flon would kindl y rephrase his question and withd raw the words "false aspersions." Mr. McCrae: False assurances. Mr. Speaker: False assurances. Mr . Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): Mr. Sp eaker , I am assuming your ruling impl ies that the words "false assurances" are in breach of the rules. Mr. Speaker: Unp arliament ary. Mr. Storie: If that is in tact correct, Mr. Sp eaker, I accept your ruling, I would withd raw tho se remarks. Mr.

Speaker: I would like to thank the Ho nourable Mem ber tor Flin Flon. Mr. Storie: In the int erest of parli ament ary fairness, Mr. Sp eaker, I would ask the Mi nister to withd raw his imp utation that somehow my remarks were other than for the concern of the chi ldren, concern of all parents, to have some kind of accountabili ty in both the public and private system. My question, which has not been answered by the Mi nister of Education (Mr. Derkach), is can he give us the assurance that the teachers in private schools are aware of the current provi ncial guideli nes?

Can he show rne one shred of evidence that would indicate that letters have been sent, that the guideli nes have been sent to every priv ate school in this province? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Mi nister of Education): Mr. Speaker , when I assumed office as Min ister of Education, it was my understanding that the letters with regard to the legi slation on child abuse and the way that tho se situations must be reported had gone out to all schools in Manitoba in both the public school system and the private school system , tho se letters which should have gone out under that admin istration.

At the present time, we have an investigation of a situation in a private school going on. Once I have received the report of that investigation, then I will know precisely how to act on these situations. I have indicated to the Mem ber tor Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) or the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) that, in fact, we are going to send out another letter reiterat ing the legislation that is in place now. That letter will go to all schools in Manitoba, not just the public school system. • (1 410 ) Conflict of Interest Minister's Neutrality Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James): My question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). On Frida y last week, the Min ister of Labour (Mr. Connery) agreed with me that a critical role of the Labour Min ister was to maintain neutralit y between both sides in the labour relationsh ip insofar as was possible, and I trust that those comments, that the Premier also agrees with them , Mr. Sp eaker. My question is, is it this Government's polic y to tolerate the level of involvement in priv ate compan ies in matters within this subject area of a Min ister's portf olio by Min isters to the level revealed in this House on Friday? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Prem ier): I am really surprised at the Mem ber for St. James. One would think that he would be emba rrassed at having raised an issue as the lead-off question in Question Period , an allegation of conflict of int erest that proved to be total ly false, that came down to the fact that the Min ister indic ated here in the House and pub licly that he had absolutely no role or kno wledge of the decision that was made by a corporation of which he is a director to release an empl oyee.

Under those circumstances, he is now telling me, because he had no involvement whatsoever in that decision or in the ongoing operation of the comp any, that is too much involvement in a comp any, and he wants me to say that is too much involvement in the company . We ll, I say, Mr. Sp eak er, he do es not understand the situation, he does not understand the conflict of interest, and he is just out there attem pting to raise an issue to get himself back in the publi c view again because he is hurting a little for pu blicit y. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Spe aker, in direct contradiction to what the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has just stated, if you will review Hansard, no conflict of int erest was ever alleged. lt was a conflict of roles. Also in contradiction to the-a nd I will refer to it again. In further contradiction to what the Premier says- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Memb er for St. James, with a supplementa ry question. Mr. Edwards: In further contradiction to what the Premier states, in fact we have a Labour Mi nister's (Mr.

Connery) signature on term ination cheques and a publi c concurr ence with the firing, which the concurrence was made in this House on Friday by the Labour Minister. Mr. Speaker: Question. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Sp eaker, my supplementa ry question is who was Mr. Smo ok to turn to to enforce the labour relations statutes of this province with his complaint of mistreatment, when the Labour Min ister was a di rector of the very company from which he was fired and was a director who had already concurred with his firing? Mr.

Filmon: We have an activ e mem ber of the Liberal Party of Manitoba, having raised this issue with the Memb er for St. James (Mr. Edwards) and asking him 1773

Monday, October 3, 1988 to raise it as a public issue for attention and, presumab ly, for the credit of the Liberal Party in Manitoba. That is what we have by his own ad m ission in the Free Press

article of Saturday. He can turn to the same body, the neutral arm 's length, thir d party adjudicativ e body that everybody else in this province turns to, and that is the Labour Board who will ensure that his rights are upheld under the laws of this province. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for St. James, with one final supplementar y question. Mr. Edwards: I am very surprised that the Labour Min ister (Mr. Connery) is not the final word in this provinc e on labour law.

If that has been given over to the Labour Board, if that is what the Premier is saying, I find that shocking and in fact it is exactly what the Labour Min ister is there for. Conflict of Interest Act Amendments Mr. Paul Edwards (St. Jam es): Mr. Spe aker, my final question, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) stated in this House on May 26, 198 6 , his desire for strengthening conflic t of-interest laws specific to Cabinet Ministers. He ma y recall those statements. In the Speech from the Throne, only amend ments dealing with after being a Cabi net Minister are referenced.

My final question is will these spoken-of amendments, which as I say are referenced in the Sp eech from the Throne, will th ey include provisions for active Cabi net Min isters and not ju st Cabinet Ministers who have finished their term of office, and when can we expect these ame ndme nts? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): In response to the John Nunziata of the Manitoba Legislature, may I just say that if he read the Act he would kno w clearly that Mr.

Sm ook and every other emplo yee who has a grievance against his emp loyer or the manner in which he was dealt with or termina ted or working conditions or anything can appeal to the Labour Board in Manitoba. That provision is there so that it is not a political process that you go to your MLA and you get the response that you want, or you go to the Min ister of Labour and ask him to intervene because you think you were unfairly dealt with and, if he happens to kno w you or kn ows the political card that you keep , you get a different response. There is a procedure in place.

There are laws in place that are not the laws of one political party but are the laws of this provi nce, that all of us take responsi bil ity for in this Cham ber. He, Mr. Smook or any other emplo yee can be assured that those laws would be up held by the due process that is in place in this Government. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The time for Oral Questions has expir ed. Hon. Albert Driedger (Mi nister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Sp eak er, I wonder if I could have leave to go back to tabling of reports. Mr .

Sp eaker: Does the Honourable Mini ster of Hig hways have leave to revert back to tabling of reports? (Agreed) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLIN G OF REPORTS Hon. Alb ert Driedger (Minis ter of Highways and Transportat ion): Mr. Sp eaker, the reason I asked for leave to table the Sup plement ary in forma tion for Government Services is because we will be doing the Estima tes this afternoon.

This is the second time that we have been going on short notice, and I had given these supp lementary reports to the Mem bers at the last time tha t we met but I had not tabled it and I would like to now table the supple mentary information. Mr. Speaker: I thank the Honour able Minister. Mr. Gulzar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Sp eaker, could I have leave to make a non-politic al statement? Mr . Sp eaker: Does the Honour able Mem ber for Kildonan have leave to make a non-political statement? (Ag reed) NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Mr. Gulzar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday along with the Honour able Min ister of Culture and Herita ge (Mrs. Mitchelson) and the Mem ber for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak), we partici pated in the Second Annual Walk for Dign ity organized by the Schizophrenic Treatment and Research Centre of Manitob a. October 2 to October 9 marks the special week for mental illness awareness. Mental health disorders affects young and old, rich and poor, educated and uneducated. Socie ty must play a concerted role to help the patients and thei r fam ilies and one must avoid the stigma attached to these disorders. I would like to pay special tribu te to Dr.

Sheila Cantor who played a leading role to establish various programs for mental health care in Manitoba, and she will always have a special place in the hearts of those who suffer from these disorders. I am sure all Mem bers of this House will join with me in wishing Mrs. Francine Holli ngsworth, the president of the board , and other board mem bers good luck for such a noble cause. Thank you. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): I would li ke leave to make a non-pol itical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Ho nourable Memb er the The Pas have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Harapiak: Mr.

Sp eaker, as a parent of an autistic son who falls under the category of schizop hrenia, I too would like to say that I had the oppor tun ity to march with the Schizop hrenia Foundation on Sunday on their Second Annual Walk for Dign ity. The pu rpose of their walk was to try and educate the public of some of the downfalls of mental ill ness and take away the stigma that is attached to mental illness and let famil ies come forward and share that there is mental ill ness in their familie s so they can come forward for the treatment 1774

Monday, October 3, 1988 as necessary. The foundation has now hired a new doctor, Dr. Chuck Piany, who is going to be replaci ng Dr. Sheila Cantor. The y are going to be moving on to the dream that Dr. Sheila Cantor had to build a home and a farm where people who are afflicted with mental illness can have a place to live with dignity. So I too want to congr atulate them on the march and wish them the best of luck as they come forward with their effort to build this home and put this farm in place. Thank you. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): May I have leave to make a non political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Min ister have leave? (Agreed) Mrs. Mitchelson: I want to ind icate that it was a pleasure for me to share with my colleagues from the Li beral Party and the ND Party, to talk with the people after their walk, Walk for Dignit y, the Schizophrenic Association yesterday. I want to ind icate that mental ill ness crosses all Party lines and all walks of life and all parts of the provi nce.

We as Mem bers of the Legislature, I am sure, all want to join together and work towards a better system and a better place in Manitoba for those with mental illness and mental disease to live and to become indepen dent productive mem bers of society. So I want to say that we all, I am sure, want to join together in support of those especially with schizophrenic disorders. I, as a registered nurse, have worked with those people in the past, and do kno w that there are true concerns and true needs. I am sure we all want to join together and work towards making this a better place to live. Thank you. Mr.

Jay Cowan (Chur chill): Having also partici pated in a walk-a-t hon this weeke nd, I wonder if I might have leave for a non-politi cal statement. Mr . Spea ker: Does the Hon ourable Mem ber for Churchill have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Cow an: I would lik e to take this opportu nit y to congratulate the Canine Vision Club on their successful compl etion of their Fifth Annual Walk -a-Dog-a-Thon which was held at Birds Hill Park on Sunday. This is a national event which is held all across Canada on the first Sunday in October .

This year's event, as I said, was held at Birds Hill Park where it was a lovely day for a 10 -kilo metr e walk to raise mon ey for the Canine Vision Club. That mone y by the way goes to assist in the purchasing and the training of seeing-eye dogs and blind recipients of seeing-eye dogs. So it was a very worthy cause. There were over 200 partici pants. I am proud to say that my pet and I, Anichimo ose which is a Cree name, and I comple ted the 10-kilome tre walk along with 200 other partici pants. A total of $1 2,3 00 was raised. I think special congratulations ought to go to Mr.

Randy Diduch who helped organ ize the event and also specia l 1775 congratulations to the person who obtai ned the hig hest numb er and amount of personal contributions, Mrs. Cathy Diduch, and to the hig hest corporate sponsor, which was Air Canada, and to the highest dog club sponsor, which was Canine Instructional Academy. I kno w all Mem bers of the House will join with me in offering our congratulations to them and ensuring that there are many more Mem bers out there enjo yi ng that 10-ki lometre walk next year when the oppor tuni ty arises. An Honour able Mem ber: Hear, hear! Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Might I have leave of the Ho use for a non-pol itic al statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Ho nourable Min ister of Health have leave? (Agreed) * (14 20) Mr. Orchard: lt seems like this was a very active Sunday. I had the pleasure of attending, prior to Sunday's foot ball game, with the Mem bers of the Lions Club of northwest Ontario and Manitoba to formally proclaim October 2 to October 9 Eye Bank Awareness Wee k.

The Lions and their mem bers thr ough out northwest Ontario and Ma nitoba have been very much instrumental as a commun ity service club in provi ding service to those less fortunate Manitobans with eyesight problems.

The Corneal Transplant Program has been one in which the Lions Club s have been instrumental in establishing the Eye Bank in the Province of Manitoba. lt was a pleasure to attend that formal proclamation signing with two individual Manitobans, one a young girl of some 15 years old and another woman , who both were recipi ents of corneal transplants and were giv en the gi ft of vision because of the concerns and the very intense and dedicated efforts that Lions across this provi nce have done in soliciting commun ity support for the Eye Bank and indeed for sponsoring Eye Bank Awareness Week, October 2 to October 9.

I think all Mem bers of the House would like to join with me to congratulate the Lions of northwest Ontario and Manitoba for their continued dedicated efforts to bring the gift of sight to those unfortunate Manitobans and Canadians who do not enjoy the privilege of sight that we do. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): May I have leave to make a non-pol iti cal statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns have leave? (Agreed) Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: My non-politic al statement does not relate specifically to an event here in Manitoba this weekend , but to an international event that has captured our interest for a good period of time. Now that the 24th Summer Olympics held in Seoul, Korea, have come to a close, I think it is im portant that we all in this House take a moment to single out all of those athletes and their fam ilies, the volunteers, the trainers, the sports organizations who contri buted to Manitoba's strong

Monday, October 3, 1988 showing at the summer Olympics and did us very proud indeed . So on behalf cf everyone here in this House, we take a moment to thank all of the participants and congratulate them for a job well done . Mr. Speaker: On behalf of all our Members, let me indeed say how proud we are of our Honourable Members who do partake in all these worthwhile organizations . Prior to Orders of the Day, I have a ruling for the House. SPEAKER'S AUL.ING Mr.

Speaker: On September 29, I took under advisement a point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Churchill respecting the words ". . . the NDP are playing politics, they do not care about helping people . . . "spoken by the Honourable Minister of Health.

Before addressing the specifics of the point of order raised, I wish to point out to the Honourable Members to whom I have just referred that in speaking to the point of order they were both guilty of flagrant violations of our Rule 38(2) in that their remarks went far beyond the restrictions imposed by this Rule, which specifies that "the debate (on the point of order) must be strictly relevant to the point of order." Under this Rule, debate should have been confined to identifying or explaining the breach of the Rules or normal manner of proceedings which was alleged to have occurred.

The extremely heated exchange which occurred after between these Honourable Members immediately prior to and following my decision to take the matter under advisement does little , in my opinion, to assist the House to conduct its business in an orderly and effective manner. Additionally, I doubt that it could in any way enhance the television audience's perception of the manner in which we, as elected representatives , conduct ourselves and conduct the public business of the province. The behaviour of these Members was unacceptable in the opinion of the Chair and, I believe, of most Honourable Members .

Turning now to the specifics olf the point raised, imputation of bad or unworthy motives as a breach of order comes under the heading of unparliamentary language . The authorities advise us that many points have to be considered by the Speaker when determin ing whether particular words or phrases are unparliamentary , such as the tone, manner and intention of the person speaking , and in som,3 cases, the degree of provocation. This is a political forum in which Members are motivated by political objectives. It is a place in which competition and often confrontation is one of the norms .

Strong and frequently opposing views are held by all Honourable Members. In the heait of the moment , provocative, but not necessarily unparliamentary words will be used from time to time. Wit h respect , I believe that this goes with the territory and is to be expected. May I suggest to all Honourable Members that by using caution in their choice of language they will make it much easier for all of us to carry out our assigned roles and for the House to get on with the business before it. In conclusion , I am of the opinion that the words spoken by the Honourable Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) did not impute unworthy motives and therefore were not unparliamentary. The matter is therefore concluded as far as the Chair is concerned. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker , I accept your rightful chastisement of the heated exchange between myself and other Honourable Members in the House, and I have to admit that it occurs infreque ntly, but when it does, it is most disruptive of the House and indeed probably leads to less than acceptable public opinion of our conduct in this House . For that , Mr. Speaker , I apologize to you and to Members of the House. Mr.

Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) . Mr. Jay Cowan (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, being the other individual who was involved in that exchange, and I certainly concur with your ruling that this is a forum where sometimes a confrontation does take different approaches and different expressions , I also would like to apologize if you were in any way offended by that exchange which has happened previously, and given your own suggestion of the type of House in which we operate, will probably happen in the future.

I am certain that if it does, all Members would be equally eager to apologize for any disruption which you have read into that incident. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank both Honourable Members. ORDERS OF THE DAY ADDRESSES FOR PAPERS Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I wou ld ask the indulgence of Honourable Members and seek their leave to- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Prior to moving into Orders of the Day, I have to move these papers , addresses , and move, seconded by the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), that an Address for Papers do issue claim for.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. That Address for Papers is under Orders of the Day, and I believe the Honourable Government House Leader (Mr. McCrae) is attempting to get to Addresses for Papers. * (1430) 1776

Monday, October 3, 1988 Mr. McCrae: I seek the indulgence of Honour able Mem bers that they would grant leave to allow the Addresses for Papers, standing in the name of the Honou rable Mem ber for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak) and in the name of the Honour able Memb er for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), stand, to give me an oppor tun ity to consult my colleagues to see about the efficacy and the possibility of making available the information requested. Mr. Jay Cowan (Second Opposition House Le ader): This is highly unusual.

Having been a House Leader for a numb er of Sessions, I kno w that it was always difficult to obtain a full assessment as to whether or not an Order for Return was one which we could agree to, but it was done within the time limi t that was provided to us. In this particular instance, because there was a weekend intervening, there should have been more than enough time to ob tain advice from the Min isters who are responsible for replying to the Orders for Return as to whether or not that would be an acceptable Order for Return.

I cannot recall one occasion- perhaps my memor y is failin g me, but if so I will stand corrected, but I cannot recall any occasion during which time I was Ho use Leader, certain ly, where we had to ask for leave to extend that time period , and I would therefore be quite hesitant in this particular circumstance to do so, unless the Minis ter, the Attorne y-General (Mr. McCrae) can give-the Government House Leader in this role-u s some com pelling reason as to why that should be done, and when it is, we should expect an answer to tho se Orders for Return. Mr.

McCrae: I was not askin g for any undue delay. lt was a matter of a day or two to give me the oppor tun ity to review further the Add resses for Papers. In the first instance, there is a reference to a date of May 9th and referring to correspondence between this Government and the Saskatchewan Government, for example, si nce May 9th.

I think to get a proper airing of the issue involved in the question, we might be very well be interested in the correspondence pr evious to Ma y 9th as wel l. lt causes some consternation for Honour able Mem bers on this side that the person asking for this information should only be interested in information after May 9th, which coincid entally was the date of the appointment of the new Government. There may very well have been correspondence previous to that tim e and I would wonder why the Honou rable Mem ber would not want all Honourable Mem bers to kn ow about tha t correspondence as well.

With respect to the Add ress put do wn by the Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), it states as a

preamble that there has been a refusal to undertake a cert ain prosecution . The Address for Papers assumes that, and that is quite a hypothetical situati on. These are things that need a little bit of consideration and tha t was the reason for the request. If the Honour able Member is of a mind to refuse granting leave to put this over a day or two, let him do so. Mr. Cowa n: On the points raised by the Attorne y General (Mr. McCrae), the Government House Leader (Mr. McCrae) knows that it is wit hin his power to ask for ame ndme nts to the Addresses for Papers, or the Orders for Return.

If he is asking for an amendment on the first one, which would just strike the "since May 9, 19 88," we would agree to that amendment at this time. That has been a practice that has been usually done by consultation previous to the Order for Return coming to the attention of the House in this formal manner. But if that is the concern with the Government Ho use Leader on the first Order for Return, I am certain that we can agree at this point that wherever "since May 9, 19 88" appears, that tho se words be struck from the Order for Return, and that would take care of that particular concern of his. Mr.

McCrae: I am advised that we should be referring to a condition here, rather than an ame ndment. If that is the case, then the Address in the name of the Honour able Mem ber for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak) is acceptable to the Government. On the second one, if Ho nourable Mem bers can accept that what we are dealing with in that Address for Papers is a hypothe sis-w ell, it is strictly that. lt is a very hypothetical situation. (

a) refers to a copy of the correspondence in my department which I am using as my basis for refusing to prosecute, etc., and tha t is an understanding that the Honour able Memb er for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) seems to have. lt has never been made clear that that is the fact, and that is what trou bles me with respect to that Address for Papers. Mr. Cowa n: Mr. Speaker, just for clarification, is the Government House Leader (Mr. McCrae) saying that he does not want to accept the Order for Return, or does he want to have this held over one day, which we will be prepa red to grant leave to do so?

I am not certain as to what his concern is that can be dealt with in one's day time, but if he needs an additio nal day for discussions, then we would be prepared to hold this over one day. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, it may be that a little time for consideration might be helpful, but I do raise this as a bit of a stumb ling block . As far as I am concerned, I am not at the appropr iate time ups et or worried about sharing with Honourable Mem bers all the information that I have. lt is ju st that the Address for Papers makes an assumption that is not correct. Mr.

Speaker: I think we have an order in which we usually do proceed with Orders for Return, and the Government House Leader can take one of three options, I believe. The Ho nourable Member for The Pas. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Sp eaker, I mo ve, seconded by the Hono urable Mem ber for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), THA T an Addr ess for Papers do issue, prayi ng for: (

a) a copy of all correspondence between the 1777

Monday, October 3, 1988 Min ister of Environment and Workp lace Safety and Health and the Federal Min ister of the Environment concerning the Rafferty Aiameda Dam Proj ect since May 9, 19 88; and (

b) a copy of the corr espondenc e between Environment Canada and the Min ister conc erning the Rafferty- Aiameda Dam Project since May 9, 19 88; and (

c) a copy of the correspondence between the Min ister and the Saskatchewan Government since May 9, 19 88, concerning the Rafferty Aiameda Dam Project ; and (

d) a copy of all documents on which the Min ister has based his conclusion that Manitoba does not need an environme ntal im pact study on the Rafferty-Aiamed a Dam Project ; and (

e) a copy of all correspondence from the United States Corps of Engi neers to the Min ister conc erning their study of the Rafferty Aiameda Dam Project . MOTION presented. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, subject to the comments abol.lt information restricted only to information or correspondence after May 9, 19 88, subject to those previous comments, this Add ress for Papers is satisfactory to the Government, and accept able. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Speaker, I would like leave to mo ve, on behalf of the Memb er for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). Mr. Speaker: Does the Hono urable Mem ber have leave? (Agreed) *

(1440) Mr. Harapiak: I mo ve, seconded by the Mem ber for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), THA T an Address for Papers do issue, prayi ng for: (

a) a copy of the corre spondence in his Depart ment which the Attorne y-General is using as his basis for refusing to prosecute Br icks Wareh ouse Limi ted for br eak ing Sect ion 3(2) of The Busine ss Na mes Registration Act; and (

b) a copy of the correspondence between Bricks Warehouse Limit ed and the Attorney-General since May 9, 19 88; and (

c) a copy of the correspondence between the Attorne y-General and small businesses from Manitoba, requesting he uphold The Business Names Registration Act ; and (

d) a copy of the correspondence between the Winnip eg Cham ber of Comm erce and the Attorney-General conce rning other small Manitoba businesses who have been ordered by national firms to change their corpor ate names or face prosecution. MOTI ON presented. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Sp eaker, this Address for Papers, subject to my comm ents earlier, is acceptable to the Government. QUES TION put, MOTION carried. ORDER FOR RETURN NO. 2 Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): Mr. Speaker, with leave of the House, I would lik e to intr oduce the motion on the Order Paper by the Mem ber for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The Honour able Mem ber does not need leave. Mr. Storie: I mo ve, seconded by the Mem ber for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak), THA T an Order of the Ho use do issue for return of the following informa tion: (

a) a copy of the studies that the Min ister of Emplo yment Services and Economic Security used to justif y cutting the funding for the Communi ty Unemp loyed Help Centre and the Workp lace In novation Centre; and (

b) a copy of all correspondence and list of mee tings between the Min ister and the Wo rkpla ce Inno vat ion Centre, and the Commu nity Unemplo yed Help Centre since May 9, 19 88; and (

c) a list of all new job training programs initia ted by the Min ister since May 9, 19 88; and (

d) a list of all job trai ning programs termina ted or cut back by the Min ister since May 9, 19 88; and (

e) a list of all social agencies that the Min ister is cutting funding to in fiscal year 19 88-19 89; and (

f) a copy of correspondence from the Min ister to the Uni ted Way detailing agencies that the Min ister wants the United Way to fund, rather than her Department; and (

g) a list of all new programs that the Min ister will announce in the current fiscal year to com bat the rising unemplo yment in Manitoba. MOTION presented. Hon. James McCr ae (Gove rnment House Leader): This Order for Return is acceptable to the Government. QUES TION put, MOTION carried. 1 778

Monday, October 3, 1988 ORDER FOR RETU RN NO. 3 Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker , I mo ve, seconded by the Mem ber for Logan (Ms. Hem phill) , THA T an Order of the Hous e do issue for return of the following informa tion: (

a) a copy of all correspondence between the Min ister of Commun ity Services and comme rcial child care oper ators and centres prior to the public announ cement on September 6, 1988, that these institutions would be eligi ble to receive Government funded subsidies; and (

b) a copy of studies that the Min ister used to base her conclusion that tax dollars should be allocated to private centres; and (

c) a copy of the Wi nnip eg city map that the Min ister used to base her conclusion that residents of the city core would be better served by driving across town to th suburbs, rather than funding more public day care centres in the city core; and (

d) a list of all requests from the non-pr ofit child care com mun ity for provincial Government funding of add itional spaces in exis ting centres and new spaces in unfunded non profit centres; and . (

e) a copy of the studies that the Minis ter used to justif y cutting funding to Child and Family Services Agencies; and (

f) a list of all social agencies that will have their funding cut this year by the Min ister. MOTION presented. Hon. James McCrae (Gove rnment House Leader): This Order for Return is acceptable to the Government. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. ORDER FOR RETU RN NO. 4 Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): On behalf of the Mem ber for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper), I mo ve, seconded by the Memb er for Logan (Ms. Hemphill), THA T an Order for Return do issue for return of the following information: (

a) a copy of the contract to Resource Initia ti ves Lim ited to conduct a review of the Nativ e Affairs Secretariat; and (

b) a copy of the work plan for this review; and (

c) a li st of th ose emplo yed by Resou rce Initia tives Lim ited to conduct this review; and (

d) a listing of any backgrou nd materials which were provided to Resource Ini tiatives Lim ited in order to assist them in conducting this review; and 1779 (

e) a copy of all tender documents associated with this review. MOTION presented. Hon. James McCrae (Gov ernment House Leader): This Order for Return is acceptable to the Government. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. Mr. McCrae: I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Urb an Affairs (Mr. Ducharme), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve it self into a Com mit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

By agreement of the House Leaders, I would ask for leave tha t this afternoon the Estima tes of the Department of Government Services come before the Commit tee in the Cham ber; and, as usual, the Estimates of the Department of Commun ity Services would be in Room 255. Mr. Speaker: Is tha t agreed? (Agreed) lt is understood therefore, that the Government Servic es will be in the Cham ber and Commun ity Services will continue outside the Cham ber.

That is agreed? (Agreed) MO TION presente d and carrie d and the Ho use resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to He r Maje sty with the Honourable Memb er for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Commun ity Services; and the Honour able Mem ber for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Government Services. * (1 500) CONC URRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPP L Y SUPPLY-COMMUNITY SERV ICES Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: I would like to call this comm ittee to order. We will start with a statement from the Honourable Min ister. Hon.

Ch arlotte Oleson (Mini ster of Community Services): In response to questions on residential care facility appl ications received and licensed for the past year, the following activity took place during January 1, 19 87, and Decem ber 1, 1987, during year two and three of the Welcome Home project .

Appl ications and licensing statistics for residential care facilitie s by region, period January '87 to December '87, total provi ncial numb er of appl ications received: Wi nnip eg non-profit 15, profit 10, total 25; Westman non-profit three, profit one, total four; lnterlake non profit two, none in the profit sector, making a total of two; Parklands non-profit three, profit one, making a total of four; Eastman, make it a total of one in the non-p rofit sector; and Central, two in the non-p rofit sector, which made a total of two.

Monday, October 3, 1988 Numb er of licences issued: Wi nnip eg non-pr ofit 14, profit nine, total 23; Westman non-p rofit three, none in the profit sector making a total of three; lnterlake non-pr ofit two, profit zero, making a total of two; Parklands non-profit three, profit one, making a total of four; Eastman non-profit one, profit zero, making a total of one; and in Central non-p rofit two, and none in the profit sector, making a total of two, making the provincial total of licences 25 in non-profit, 10 in profit, making a total of 35.

Also, appl ications and li cenc es received and processed for the period April 1, 19 88 to August 19 88, numb er of appli cations received: in the non-profit Wi nnipeg three, profit two, a total of five; Westman none in either sector; lnterlake none in either sector; Parklands none in either sector; Eastman one in non profit, two in profit, making a total of three; and in Central non-profit one, profit zero, making a total of one; making a provi ncial total of five in the non-profit, four in profit, making a total of nine.

Numb er of licences issued by region: non-profit Wi nnip eg two, profit two, making a total of four; Westman zero in both sectors; lnterlake zero; Parklands zero; Eastman zero in non-profit, one in profit, making a total of one; and in Central one in non-profit , zero in profit, making a total of one, making a provi ncial total of three in non-profit, th ree in profit and six in the total . I also have information to table with regard to the Manitoba Developmental Centre. Ther e were questions asked about that, and I will ju st di stribute tho se or have them distri buted to the critics. Mr .

Chairman: On Sect ion 3. Co mmuni ty Social Services, (

b) Op erations:

(1) Salaries $10 ,6 41 ,000,00. Shall the item pass? Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): No. A numb er of weeks ago, when we began Estima tes, I had giv en the Min ister notice that I would be asking for the organization al charts for Communi ty Services for the three Winnip eg regions. Does she have that information with her today? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, we have the information. If the Mem ber would like to go ahead with other questions, we can have the table copied and distribut ed later, if that would be ok ay. Ms.

Gray: In this particular appropriation that we are dealing with, the Commu nity Social Services Operations, there is an indication that there is funding for a transitional unit. Would the Min ister explain to us the nature of that transitional unit? Mrs. Oleson: Is the Memb er referring to the Manitoba Develop mental Centre? We are not on that line. Ms. Gray: I am referring to under Op erations, it says full-year funding for transitional unit. Mrs. Oleson: The transitional unit was designed to help people who were moving out of the institution and that, at the moment, is under review. Ms.

Gray: Could the Min ister indic ate to us, are there any SYs that are attached to that unit? Mrs. Oleson: There are 18 attached to that but only 12 positions filled. The others are wait ing pending the outcome of the review. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us, these SYs, are they new SYs or where did the SYs come from? Are they re allocated from some where else? Mrs. Oleson: These positions were reallocated from within MDC. * (1 5 1 0) Ms. Gray: The individuals attached to these SYs, do they actually work at the Manitoba Develop mental Centre and could she explain a bit mor e as to what this unit is to do?

Mrs. Oleson: These people work out of MDC but in a special cottage, so they are not part of the actual building or physical plant of the MD C. They are in a special cottage. The budgeted staffing I could give you is one each coordinator, psychotherapist, occupational therapist, special educator, special therapist, behaviour psychologist, behaviour counsellor, recreation specialist, deaf program spe cial ist and a nur se. Also eight parap rofessional staff who are pr ogram sup port workers. As I indicated before, those positions are not all filled at the moment. Ms.

Gray: Can the Mini ster tell us which clients these staff would work wit h? Mrs. Oleson: Is the Mem ber referring to individuals because we do not have that listi ng, of course? Ms. Gray: No, I do not want to know the names of the clients. I want to kno w if these staff work with individuals who live in the Manitoba School? Do they work with indi viduals who are moving back to the institut ion? What is the nature of the client population these staff would work with? Mrs.

Oleson: This will include 24 residents of the institu tion , who are deemed as bei ng mo st ready to leave the institution and live outside it. lt is in order to help them cope with living outside the institution. Ms. Gray: Could the Minis ter tell us why this unit is under review? Mrs. Oleson: lt is under review to see if that is the mo st effective way to help people live outside of an institution and within the commun ity. lt seems to me, as a new Min ister looking at it, that it was something that perhaps should have been done before when the re was mo vement out of the institution.

But I want to be sure that this will adequately serve the people who are leaving. Some people have said to me, how can you teach a person, to orient them to live in a small com muni ty somewhere else by having them live in what is essentially, with 24 residents, really another instit ution. 1780

Monday, October 3, 1988 So these are just some of the thin gs we are looking at. Ms. Gray: Could the Minis ter tell us, these individuals who are deemed to be mo st ready to mo ve into the com munit y, who go into this transitional unit, who makes the decision as to who these ind ividuals will be who will go into the unit? Mrs. Oleson: Ther e is an assessment process that takes place as to whether or not they should or are able to leave the insti tution. Parents would be part of that decision as well. Excuse me, I do have that organizational chart now if the Mem bers want it. Ms.

Gray: The Min ister has ind icated that an assessment is done and that parents are involved. Could she tell me, is it the person making the assessment who ma kes the final decision? Is there a commit tee at the school who ma kes a decision or where does the decision actually come from? Mrs. Oleson: lt is an evaluation team and they make the final decision. Ms. Gray: Then the Min ister is ind icating to us that the parents are consulted in all situations where these individua ls, where there are parents, would be moving into the transitiona l unit? Mrs. Oleson: Yes.

ML Gray: Could the Min ister tell us, is there a particular time frame as to how long these ind ividuals, a minimum time frame, would remain in the transitional unit before they might be mo ved into the com mun ity? Mrs. Oleson: No, not at the moment. Ms. Gray: So it is conceivable that a person going into one of these cottages or transitional units could be there for two and three years? Mrs. Oleson: lt has only been in existence for a few months, but it is not likel y, no, that it would be a two year stay. Ms.

Gray: Could the Mini ster tell us, are there some guid elines or a frame work with which this transitional unit was developed in regard to how long people would remain in the unit? Are there particular skills that these clients must have before they are ready to leave the unit? Could she elabor ate on this? Mrs. Oleson: The guidelin es were not all that clear. Tha t is one of the reasons I have asked for a review. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us, have any clients who have been read mi tted to the Ma nitoba Dev elopme ntal Center , have the y gone into this transitional unit? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. 1781 Ms.

Gray: Could the Min ister tell us who is reviewing this unit and when we can expect a decision or the outcome of the review? Mrs. Oleson: The Assistant Deputy Minister, with staff, is doing the review. Also, Mr. Chairman, I might add that it is within the next few weeks that review is to be comp leted. Ms. Gray: A few more questions in regard to the Regional Operations. There was some discussion last week about the whole respite care area and respite care workers. Could the Min ister tell us how respite care workers are hired and is there any training that is provided for respite care workers within the regions?

Mrs. Oleson: Regional staff do the hiring and there is a trai ning program . Ms. Gray: Who conducts the training prog ram for respite care workers? Mrs. Oleson: lt is done under regional staff. lt is not a full-blown trainin g program, but regional staff will do the trai ning of the respite care workers. Ms. Gray: Is there a

part icular staff person identified in each region to do that trai ning or is up to the individual M.R. worker to provide that training? Mrs. Oleson: Ind ividual M.R . workers do the training. No, there is not anyone assigned . That is their only duty. Ms. Gray: Have there been any concerns raised or identified about lack of training for respite care workers? Mrs. Oleson: I indic ated, I belie ve it was last time we met we discussed the whole are of training. I should indicate that this is part of the review that has been done on trai ning.

I am looking forward to suggestions of how we can better address the whole training area. Ms. Gray: Is the Min ister saying that the respite care workers will be part of the revie w th at is being undertaken by the Assistant Deputy Min ister-tha t particular training review? Is this the one she is referring to? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, tha t is correct. Ms.

Gray: This review that also involves respite care workers, and I understand com muni ty residences' workers as well, is there any forma lized discussions going on with the Depart ment of Health given that, as well, they would have staff who would provi de training to residential care facil ities with in their pur view, particularly with the post mentally ill? * (15 20) Mrs. Oleson: Health will be involved, but at the moment we are working with education in review, but health will be involved later.

Monday, October 3, 1988 Ms. Gray: Does the Min ister mean the Depart ment of Education? Mr s. Oleson: Yes. Ms. Gray: Wo uld the Mini ster tell us ho w the Department of Education is part of this review? Mrs. OlelfQn: The Department of Education deliv ers programs through the commu nity colleges, so there would be some involvement there. Ms.

Gray: Would it not seem advisable tha t the Department of Healt h, particularly the Depart ment of Health that deals with training and re sidential care facili ties for the post-mentally ill be involved in initial stages, since I understand that there have been some mor e formalized trai ning programs offered by the Department of Health for their staff in residential care faciliti es? Mrs.

Oleson: I had ind icated to the Mem ber before that Health would be Involv ed, but I should also add that it is being addressed via the Manitoba Supp ort Services payroll work which includes qualifications and required training for all support workers hired by Health or Communi ty Services. Ms. Gray: The respite care workers, are they still being paid by the Home Care payroll, hom emaker payroll? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I understand that is correct. Ms. Gray: And the Min ister may have answered this question before, but I cannot recall: Has that system been comp uterized yet ? Mrs.

Oleson: I understand it is in the process of being computeri zed. Ms. Gray: When this system is comp uterized for the payi ng of the respite care workers, will the mental retardation staff be at all involved as far as inputting any data into the com puters? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms. Gray: What specifically will their involvement be? Mrs. Oleson: They will be putting in schedules, and they will also be identif ying the level of worker required for each particular job. Ms. Gray: Does the Mini ster mean that they will actually be in put ting da ta in to the com puter they have scheduled? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms.

Gray: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Arthur (Mr. Downey) has indic ated that is prog ress, but I do have some concerns because -(I nterject ion) - no, I do not have concerns about prog ress, I have concerns about how you would define prog ress. My concern is that, has there been any research done as to what length of time this added duty on M.R. workers will take? Mr s. Oleson: I think when the system is fully operational, and the staff have had trainin g in it, they will find that it will save them work and time rather than, as the Memb er seems to be indicating, that it would put extra work.

The use of comp uters in this automated age is designed to make work more efficient, and really reduce work loads. Ms. Gray: What specific work that the M.R. workers do now will be deleted, or will be saved with the com puteriza tion? Mrs. Oleson: They may be doing the same work, but doing it in a different way, and the system will be sim plified , but these thi ngs take time to work into the entir e system. When it is working, they may very well be doing the same work but just in a slightly different way. Ms. Gray: Did the M.R . workers before have to submit schedules anywhere along the way? Mrs.

Oleson: Yes, they do. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us where these schedules were submi tted and did the M.R. workers develop or make up these schedules? Mr s. Oleson: They would have to make up the schedule, discuss it with the supervisor, respite worker rather, and submit it to payroll. Ms. Gray: I was under the impr ession that in fact it was the respite care workers them selves who actually subm itted the

schedule of the amount of time in which they had provided a particular service, and that was verified by the M.R. worker and then sent on to payroll. Mr s. Oleson: As emplo yees, they would have some role to play in it but the Mem ber should realize that this is trying to cut down on paperwork, this automa ted system. Tha t is why automa ted systems are put into place. Ms.

Gray: When we had discussed the compu terization beforehand and I had asked simi lar questions, including who would be responsible for in-putting data into the com puter because I had a concern about field staff doing this, the Min ister at that time had indic ated that the clerical staff would do that. Is she now indicating that there has been a change in that? Mrs. Oleson: As I recall, we were not talking specifically about respite when we were talking before. Ms. Gray: I can go back to Hansard and check that out.

My understanding was that we were talking about respite care and other types of data that would need to be in-p utted at a regional level. Part of the Communi ty Social Services operation, in one of the lines it indicates, 1782

Monday, October 3, 1988 "stand-by." Could the Min ister explain what that line "stand-b y" refers to? Mr s. Oleson: This line indicates payment for staff who are on call after hours-w ell, on call or on stand-by. Ms. Gr ay: Is this "st and-b y" some thing tha t is throughout the province or is it specific to various regions? Mrs. Oleson: lt would be in areas where there is a Child and Family Service Agency in the rural area where there would be nobody to get access to in off hours. In Wi nnip eg, in the regions, there are night duty staff, but not in the rural areas. Ms.

Gray: With regard to "stand-by" and after hours emer gency, are all staff in all the Commun ity Services progr ams required to be on stand-by? Mrs. Oleson: lt is the staff and field workers from prog ram areas, but in many cases it would be people who volunteer to be on stand-by. Ms. Gray: The Min ister is ind icating to me that it is staff who volunteer who are stand-by? They are not required to be on stand-by and put on a rotational list? * (15 30) Mrs. Oleson: lt was an arrangement made in Child and Fam ily Servi ces areas in the regions to address a need for people in off hours. Ms.

Gray: Could the Min ister tell us what specific program areas, what staff are on stand-by; i.e., are the Mental Retardation staff required to be on stand-by and are they rotated through as far as being required to be on stand-by? Are fam ily counsellors on stand by? Mrs. Oleson: Mostly it is Child and Fami ly. There will be some Mental Retardation but it will depend a good deal on the region. Ms.

Gray: Was there not a system set up awhile ago whereby the Mental Retardation staff were going to be required to be on stand-by and this was something new, because before it was only family counselling staff who were on the after-hours roster in Winnip eg? Mrs. Oleson: lt was ind icated to me tha t for the last three years all Mental Retardation staff are on some sort of a rotation for stand-by in Winnip eg. Ms. Gray: Just to clarify, this is something that is not voluntary, correct? lt is a job responsi bi lity of each staff? Mrs.

Oleson: With the Mental Retardation, yes, it is something that is part of their job. Ms. Gray: In regard to the regional operations, here throughout the province we have a num ber of staff who 1783 work at a field level and middle ma nagement level. Because this is field operations and oftenti mes a lot of the staff in the social services are female, the question of job sharing has come up.

Ther e seems to have been an indication a few years ago that the Civil Service Comm ission had a particular empha sis on promoting job sharing, and I am wondering if the Min ister could tell me, what is her department's polic y in regard to job sharing? Mrs. Oleson: If it is appropria te and if it meets the needs of the emplo yees , then the department encourages that. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us, how is job sharing prom oted or encouraged throughout her department and particula rly in the regional areas where in fact a lot of the field staff are? Mrs.

Oleson: lt is up to the individual regions and, in the regions, it is up to the individua l emplo yees to ask for this. If you have an emplo yee who has been with you a long time, you certainly do not want to lose them. You would certainly entertai n a suggestion from them that they would prefer to go on a job sharing so that you would still have the use of their expertise, but on a part-time basis. Ms. Gray: The Min ister has indicated that the job sharing is left up to individual emplo yees.

Is she saying then that in fact there is not any type of particular encouragement or promotion that comes from the top level down in regard to what is available for job sharing? Mrs. Oleson: People are aware of it, it is available. There is no special program to promote it. Ms. Gray: Does the Min ister have information as to how many job shares there are in the reg ional Operations? Mrs. Oleson: We do not have that information right to hand, but we could get it for the Mem ber. Ms.

Gray: Could the Min ister tell us what her position would be on job sharing for mi ddle manager and senior ma nager positions, i.e., regional di rectors or middle mana gers? Mr s. Oleson: lt would depend on the particular duties. lt might be more difficult at that level to have people job shari ng, but we would have to look at the circums tances. Ms. Gray: Is the Min ister aware of any studies that have been done as to the benefits or the negativ es of job sharing? Mrs.

Oleson: No, I do not know of any specific studies, but it is not something that is brand new so there may have been some done on it. lt is a concept that I certainly ag ree with. At certain ti mes and under certain circumstances, job sharing is definitely the way to go. Ms. Gray: For informa tion, the Minister might want to consult with the Civil Servic e Comm ission or her

Monday, October 3, 1988 colleague, the Min ister of He alth (Mr . Orchard). I understand there have been some internal reviews and studies done on job sharing of staff as to the benefits or the negativ es attached to that. A few more further questions in regard to Operations, it is indicated in the Estima tes that four SYs were reinstated from '87 to '88. Could the Min ister explain that? Mrs. Oleson: lt was four staff years that were not funded under Child and Family Services previously. Ms. Gray: lt is indicated that these SYs were reinstated. Where are these SYs right now? Mrs.

Oleson: The posit ions were never vacated, but they had been abolis hed a year or so ago and now they are reinstated is what I understand. Ms. Gray: The Min ister is saying the positions were abolished but the people have been there? Who are these four people or what jobs are they doing? Mrs. Oleson: There were four positions that were abolished . They were vacant and t hey are now reinstated . They had been vacant all along, but now they are reinstated. Ms. Gray: The Min ister has ind icated these posit ions were in Child and Family Services. Are these positions in the rural regions? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms.

Gray: In the di scussion of regional Op erations, I have a few questions on how the regions relate to day programs and workshops. Is there anyone who is identi fied within a region who has a liaison function with workshops? Mrs. Oleson: lt varies with the regions but, generally, it is the voc. rehab person that is involved. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us what the responsi biliti es are of this V.R. counsellor in relation to their liaison function with the day programs? Mrs. Oleson: They would be involved in looking at programs and program consultation and also assisting workshops. * (1 540) Ms.

Gray: Ho w do the se V.R. cou nsell ors assist workshops? I understand that when clients are placed in workshops that these clients would have their own indi vidual VRS or M.R . counsellors, so there must be some relationship with these ind ividual workers as well. I am wondering what the specific role is of this particular individual who has been gi ven the job of being the offi cial li aison, if I could use tha t te rm, with the workshops. Mrs. Oleson: They would be in charge of coordinating referrals and also of providing consultation with regard to programs.

They also could be perform ing a dual role in that they thems elves had clients in the system as well. Ms. Gray: Would these staff also sit on the admis sion and discharge committ ees of the various workshops? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms. Gray: What would the relationship be of these staff who are the liaison and the regional im plementation comm ittees? Mrs. Oleson: They would be involved in the flow of informa tion. I understand that it would vary from region to reg ion. They would be in volv ed in prov iding in formation and receiving in formation so th at information was flowing back and forth as is necessary. Ms.

Gray: These regional imp lementation commi ttees, do th ey have their own adm ission and di scharge subcomm it tees tha t deal with referrals to day programs? Mrs. Oleson: I understand some do and some do not. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us-do the majority of reg ions have the se admission and di scharge subcommi ttees? Mrs. Oleson: We believe that they do, but we will have to find out mo re specifics on that and get back to the Mem ber. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us what exactly is the role of the regional impl ementation comm ittee in regard to referrals going into day workshops? Mrs.

Oleson: I have indic ated earlier that the future of the regional commit tees is under review. Ms. Gray: Gi ven that many things are under review in this department- and I will reiterate for the record what the Min ister has said because I agree with her and well they should be-w hat do the workshops do in the interi m? What relationships are these workshops suppo sed to have with these regional impl ementation commit tees, or are, in fact, these commi ttees actually functioning at the moment? Mrs. Oleson: The workshops would be part of the regional impl em entation comm ittee.

They would be working with the commit tee in having inp ut. Ms. Gray: Ha ve th ese regional impl ementa tion comm ittees been consulted in regard to these 15 new spaces that are being allocated as to where they might see them best being used? Mrs. Oleson: lt is the region tha t manages the system. They may have some input but they do not manage the system. 1784 Ms. Gray: Do these commit tees have any terms of reference under which they operate?

Monday, October 3, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they do have and we could provide that to the Mem ber. Ms. Gray: Are these terms of reference individual or is it a general terms of reference under which all the comm ittees in the province ope rate? Mrs. Oleson: They have not changed. They are general. Ms. Gray: Moving to a different line of question ing, under Operations, and I had asked a couple of questions the other day on freedom of information and the Mi nister had ind icated that the regions were set up and established to deal with this new Act that is now being proclaimed.

I noti ced in the information that the Mi nister had tabled the other day that Mr. D. Willia ms is now a freedom of information coordinator and had been involved with one of the regions in, I understand also, the capacity freedom of information. Could the Mi nister tell us-this

part icular job that Mr. Wi lliams was doing in the regions-is this job no longer needed, the freedom of informa tion? Mrs. Oleson: He is not in the regions, that particular person. He is a divisional coordinator for the Assistant Deputy Minis ter. Ms. Gray: Is there any in terregiona l coord ination particularly in Winnip eg for the freedom of information? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. M s. Gray: Who is responsible for that coordi nation? Mrs. Oleson: The Assistant Deputy Min ister is the access officer and therefore is responsible for it. Ms. Gray: Who within the region is responsible for the int erregional coordination?

Mrs. Oleson: The regional directors, with the assistance of the Assistant Deputy Min ister. Ms. Gray: Was this Mr. Wi lliams before, when he was in the reg ion, not responsible for some of this coordination across the three regions? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, he was before and still is. Nothing has changed. Ms. Gray: So, therefore, the Min ister is saying that Mr. Wi lliams is as well responsible for interregional coordination for the three Winnip eg regions? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, in Wi nnipeg. * (1 550) Ms. Gray: A further question on freedom of information.

Gi ven that ind ividuals applying for information, which may come from files, etc., that some of this informa tion may be in mor e than one region or because people move from region to region it ma y take a while to even track down the files, could the Min ister just sim ply tell us what the process is if an individua l calls up a particular district office and says that they wish to apply or would lik e information from their commun ity services file? What is the process within the region to ensure that the time frames are met with respect to freedom of information? Mrs.

Oleson: I think it would probably be a good idea if I tabled the manual and the Access Guide for the Member and then she would be able to trace the system through to be sure that she is satisfied with how it works. Ms. Gray: Is this Access Guide specific to the Depart ment of Communi ty Services? Mrs. Oleson: lt is across Government. Ms. Gray: Would this Access Guide gi ve specific information as to who a commu nity person might contact if the y wanted to call a particular region and access information? Mrs.

Oleson: The person who wants information needs to contact the region and their needs will be answered through the channels that are outli ned in the Access Guide. Ms. Gray: Is there a particula r position in each region by which an individual would contact or does that vary from region to region? Mrs. Oleson: There are no new staff involved. Someone in each area is named as an access officer and that person will act in that capaci ty. Ms. Gray: Who does that access officer report to? Mrs. Oleson: The regional di rector.

There are two in each region and they report to the regio nal director who, in turn, report to the Assistant Deputy Mi nister. Ms. Gray: To clarify, the Min ister has ind icated there are two access officers in each region? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman , I ma y have left the im pression before th ere was one. There are two designated people and then they report to the regional director who, in turn, reports to the Assistant Deputy Min ister. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: No. With these access officers, could this access officer be a secretary?

Are they field workers or are they always supervisors or does it really vary from region to region? Mrs. Oleson: Most of them are adminis trative officers or intake staff. Ms. Gray: The organizationa l charts that the Mini ster has hand ed out, it looks like hot off the pr ess, September 23. In Winnip eg No rth Region, just to get a bit more clarification, is Mr. Ben Lewis still providing com mu nity services assistance to that region? 1785

Monday, October 3, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms. Gray: For clarification, what exactly is his job? Mrs. Oleson: He is assisting the regiona l director in a variety of jobs. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister elabor ate on what "assisting the regional director" means? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman , he is involved in program activities but, maybe to make it simp ler for the Mem ber, we could table later, or give her a discription of his job and what he does. Ms. Gray: The Min ister is ind icating that there is a tem porary job descript ion that has been developed for him in this tem porary assignm ent? Mrs.

Oleson: I understand a list of duti es have been developed for him, yes. Ms. Gray: Yes, I would appr eciate the tabl ing of that information. I just have one mo re line of questioning on the operations, and that is in regard to services for the mentally handicapped in relation to services which may overlap in the home care field.

What we oftenti mes find now that our mentally handicapped ind ividuals in the communi ty are aging, and in fact now that the mentally handicapped 's parents are aging, is that we have a situation in regions where parents may be eligible for home care and are receiving home care, because in some of the activities of daily living they are no longer able to look after themselves.

What happens is that in some cases we have an imme nsely handicapped adult who, for years and years has been looked after solely by these aging parents, and now we have a situation where they are unable to totally look after the adult mentally handicapped person in their home.

Where there seems to be difficulty or confusion in policy is that the mentally handicapped client may also require some assistance in gett ing up in the morning, assistance with daily hygiene, assistance with meals, but of course the home care worker who may be in tha t cli ent situation will not assist the mentally handicapped person because it is not within their policy jurisdic tion . I am wondering if the Min ister is aware of some of these ju risdictional disputes that have arisen, such as I have mentioned . Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I realize that is a problem and has been a problem for a period of ti me.

Tha t is why I am quite anxious to work with the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and see how we can resolve, perhaps, the job descriptions, or how that service is handled because it is something I have been aware of and am looking at. Ms. Gray: Have any situations come to this Min ister's attention in regard to these ju risdictional difficult ies? Mrs.

Oleson: Not spe cifically with regard to names and addresses of persons, if that is what the Mem ber is mean ing, but, no, it has come to my attention that this is a problem. lt has also come to my attention, as a Mem ber from my own constitue ncy, that there are sometimes problems with the deliv ery of home care. Tha t is why the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and I are looking at the regions and looking at how the delivery of these services take place to be sure that there are no people who are even in the same household �s someone who is receiving home care and bei ng Ignored.

So that is something we are very aware of and are working on. Ms. Gray: I am glad to hear that the Min ister is working on this particular issue with her colleague, the Min ister of Health. Could the Min ister tell us, while this review is going on, in the interi m, what specific direction has she gi ven her staff so that these clie nts can be serviced to the best of the abil ity of her department in the region? Mrs.

Oleson: I have not given any specific directiv es as to how it is to be dealt with, but I have asked for informat ion on the specific problems and how we could best address the whole issue because, as I said before, I know it is a problem . Ms. Gray: What do clients do in the meant ime when they may not be receiving services because Home Care will not provide services for the mentally handicapped adult in the home, only for the aged and infirm parent or parents? Mrs. Oleson: lt should be raised with the regional director who is responsible for coordinating these programs. Ms.

Gray: Does the regional director have the authority to make decisions which would be of a provi ncial program nature? Mrs. Oleson: If it is outside his jur isdiction he could raise it with the executive director who has autho rity and reports to both departments. Ms. Gray: Is the Min ister saying that their executive director of Regional Op erations then could overturn a program polic y decision in Home Care in regard to providing services for a client? Mrs. Oleson: He could raise the issue and make sure that the proper program polic y is developed .

Where he may not have the authority to overturn it, he could certainly bring it to the attention of pe ople who can change the polic y. Ms. Gray: Who has the responsibil ity then to change policies such as that which are causing difficulty? Mrs. Oleson: The Assistant Deputy Min isters. Ms. Gray: Are there ongoing di scussions at this moment with the di rectorate of Ho me Care in regard to their polic y regarding provi ding services to cl ients who may be mentally handicapped? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, but all these matters have to be looked at too in the light of proper resources being provi ded.

So it is an ongoing evaluation. 1786

Monday, October 3, 1988 Ms. Gray: What is the Minister's position on Com munity Services, specifically services to the mentally handicapped in their department developing their own set of services such as home support workers, homema kers, orderlies, to provide service to the mentally handicapped , aging clients in the commun ity? Do�s she feel t�at her department should be providing the1r own serv1ces to these clients, or does she feel that responsi bili ty should lie with the Department of Health and the Home Care Program? Mrs.

Oleson: lt would depend on the circumstances, �nd as! s�id, it is bei ng looked at with a view to resolving 1t, but 1t IS not something that has been resolved and I could not give a definitiv e answer on how it will be resolved. lt is always good to have initia ti ve and peo ple are willing to help themselves, but I think from what the Mem ber is referring to, I think it needs a good coordination between the two departments which does not seem to have been the case. Ms. Gray: Actually , I appr eciate the Mini ster's com ments, but I am asking the same question.

Gi ven that the Min ister is responsible for the Depart ment of Communi ty Services, I would think would have some thoughts as to in which direction these discussions should go.

There is a fairly large question here as to who is going to actually provide service, the Department of Health and Home Care Program, which of course would require mor e-o r they would say they would require more dollars in their bud gets to provide service for these group-clients, or does the Min ister feel that her depart ment in Communi ty Services should be moving toward developing their own set of suppo rt staff and their own set of programs to assist these handicapped clients who are aging and do require home support in the com mun ity? Mrs.

Oleson: That is one of the reasons we are holding the review, is to find out how best to serve the needs of people, and we certainly do not want any dupli cation of services. But then while you are saying that, then as the Memb er has raised earlier, there may be people who are not receiving service. So what we want is a coordinated app roach to it. lt would be rather expensive to set up two services parallel to one another.

That is the purpose of the review, to see how best we can provide the services and, since review is not comp leted and the recommenda tions are not made, then no conclusions can be drawn as to how exactly the service will be provi ded. But that is the pu rpose of the review, because there certainly is a need to coordinate services. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us who is involved in this particular review, and what the time frame is of having the review compl eted? * (16 00) Mrs.

Oleson: As far as the Wi nnip eg regions review that is due fairly shortly, but if the Memb er is referring to programs, there has been no time line set on that because that still needs some study. What we first want to do is look at the recommenda tions of the Winni peg regions and work from there. Ms. Gray: The review of the Wi nnip eg re gions has nothing to do with this ju risdictiona l dispute because the same ju risdictional dispute occurred in the regions where there was one, three, or whether it is six, or seven.

The Minister has indi cated that there is a review going on, I belie ve is what she said in regard to, specifical ly, jur isdictional problems in regard to providing home care, and I use that word not in regard to program but care in the home services for the mentally handicapped. I am asking, who is a part of this review, and is there a time frame establ ished as to when this review will be compl eted? Mrs.

Oleson: The assistant Deputy Ministers have been asked to come back to me clearly stating problems of interju risdictional problems, and that is part of, not definitely the only part, but is part of the whole review process, to see the ju risdictional di sputes, the organization, because they all tie in together eventually. Ms. Gray: Which Assistant Deputy Min isters is the Min ister referring to? Mrs. Oleson: Of Child Welfare and Commun ity Social Services. Ms. Gray: To clarify, the Min ister said that these two ADMs are reporting to her. Is there anyone else involved in this review? Mrs.

Oleson: They will be of course asking their staff to have input on this, but they are the two who will be reporting to me. Ms. Gray: Is there not a interdep artmental review? Mrs. Oleson: At the staff level, yes, but this which you are just referring to with the two ADMs is not a formal review as such, but ther e is also a review interdepartmental , yes. ' Ms. Gray: Which departments are involved in this review? Mrs. Oleson: Health and Communi ty Services. Ms.

Gray: Earlier on in Estim ates, in asking these very simila r, same questions, same issue on jur isdictional disputes, the Min ister had indi cated the Department of Senior s would be involved in this ju risdictional dispute. Now she has ind icated that her two ADMs will be report ing to her, and there does not seem to be any indication that in fact ADMs from the Department of Health are going to be involved, which 1 find very strange since one of the main polic y areas that has to looked at is the polic y in regard to the Cont inuin g Care Program which is under the jurisid iction of the Depart ment of Health.

Now, could the Min ister clarify this interdepa rtmental comm ittee ? Is it now just the two departments or is it as she had formerly indicated , the three depa rtments, Healt h, Commu ni ty Servi ces and the Seniors' Di rectorate? 1787

Mond ay, October 3, 1988 Mrs. Oleaon: When it comes to seniors, the department of Senior s will be invo�ved, but they would not be involved when we are dealing with interju risdictional di sputes with regard to the children's department, so there are di fferent aspects of this. The Seniors' department, of course, will be involved in anything to do with seniors. Ms.

Gray: Then to clarify, the Min ister is indicating that these ju risdictional disp utes and the example I gave today about the aging parents under home care and the adult mentally handicapped living at home, the Seniors' Di rectorate will be involved in reviewing these issues? Mrs. Oleson: When it come s to seniors' issues, the Di rectora te .of Senior s will be in volv ed with the comm ittee of the Deputy Min isters that are doing this review, senior staff. Ms. Gray: Is there a time frame on thi s type of review? Has it actually started, this review, with regard to the three departments? Mrs.

Oleson: I have asked for them to ident ify how long it will take and I have not had time to get too involved in it because of the Estima te process, so there is not a definite time frame establis hed but it will be later on. Ms. Gray: Has the review started? Mrs. Oleson: The coordinating commi ttee is in place at the Deputy Min ister level, so prelimina ry work has been done of establishing a comm ittee. But since the Deputy Minister, my Deputy, is tied up also in Estimates, it takes some of the time from actually gett ing right down to the nitt y-gritty of this.

But the process has been established and is beginning. Ms. Gray: Who represents or who is part of this coordinating comm ittee? Mrs. Oleson: lt is eo-chaired by the two Deputy Min isters and also on the comm ittee are the ADMs from Communi ty Services and Healt h. Ms. Gray: Who represents the Seniors' Di rectorate? Mrs. Oleson: That will be establis hed later but I would ima gine it wou ld be the di rector. We have not got so far as to get to the seniors' items on this. As I say, we are in the prelimina ry stages and that will be establi shed later. Ms.

Graj: Has this commit tee met and have they established terms of reference as to what are all the issues and the areas that they will be looking at? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, the y have, but they have not met in the last few weeks because of the Estima tes process. Ms. Gray: I am wondering why this comm ittee would go ahead and meet without having a representativ e from the Senior s' Di rectorate which apparently , according to reports in the Ho use and in Estima tes, seems to be getting involved in a lot of these issues regard ing the aging.

Why would not the Sen iors' Di rectorate personnel be involved from the onset? * (1610 ) Mrs. Oleson: They will be involved but, as I said, we are in prelimina ry stages. There are other aspects of this besides the seniors' aspect. So there will be other matters dealt with, the child fam ily area, the children's issues, will not affect the Seniors' Di rectorate, so there can be work done separately without involvi ng the Seniors' Di rectorate in all aspects of the whole review, but they will be involved at a later time. Ms.

Gray: Are any of the di rectorates gbing to be represented on this int erdepartmental comm ittee? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, as they are req uired. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Item 3.(bX2), Other Expenditur es, $1 ,467,3 00 -shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: Would the Min ister tell us under the line, Transitional Unit, where it is indicated $50, 000 under Operating Expenditur es, is that for mile age, etc., for the 18 staff or the 12 staff in this Transitional Uni t? Mrs. Oleson: I can gi ve the Mem ber a break down.

Transportation is $20,000, teleph ones $2,400, hotels $2,800, meals $5,000, publ ications $1 ,000, allowances $9,500, and client incentives $9,300, making a total of $50, 000 .00. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? (Agreed) Item 3.(

c) Manitoba Develop mental Centre: Provides institutional care for the mentally handicapped .

(1) Salari es, $1 7,653,500-shall the item pass? Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Under this line, in relation to the information tabled by the Min ister this afternoon on adm issions and discharges at the Ma nitoba Dev elopme ntal Centre, gi ven tha t the informat ion indicates a clear trend towards increased admis sions, is the Min ister sti ll standing by her statement that there has been no change in polic y with respect to institutional adm issions? Mrs. Oleson: There has been no change in poli cy. The num bers can fluctuate. This is not a huge fluctuation but they do fluctuate.

People come in for a short time- 1 think we discussed this last time we met. Some peo ple will be adm itted to stabilize them, some will be admitted for reasons of respite, some are first adm issions-th ere are various reasons- but it is not a huge trend and it does not reflect a change in polic y. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: My quick analysis of the statistics certainly give me cause for concern and lead me to such questioning around the change in, if not polic y, at least a change in practice.

If one looks sim ply at the four months, assuming that it would have taken the Minister a little time to adj ust in terms of her 1788

Monday, October 3, 1988 becoming Minister, comparing those four months of '88, May to August, with the same four months in May to August of '87, we are looking at a rate that is four times as high in terms of admissions. It seems to me that there is a sharp upturn in terms of the admissions, but at the same time no corresponding pattern with respect to discharges. Could the Minister explain this dramatic increase in admissions for the first four months that these stati stics show when she was Minister of this department? Mrs.

Oleson: The Member should notice that the number for April 1, '87, and the number for April 1, '88; the number for '88 is lower than the '87 number . The Member should also realize that the people who have been discharged from MDC are the ones that are easier to discharge, easier to place . Some of the more difficult cases are left within the institutio n and they are more difficult to discharge. That is something that has to be taken into consideration when you consider how many people have been discharged from the institution . Some of them, it would be very difficult for them to live outside the institution .

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: The information I have does not have statisti cs for April of '87, so I am not sure what point she is actually making with respect to compar ing April '87 to April '88 . I would assume we are looking at, still no matter which way you analyze these numbers , quite a significant trend towards increased admissions and a slowing down of discharges. I do not believe I have received an answer for why there has been a change in the whole question of admissions to the Manitoba Developmental Centre .

I appreciate the comments the Minister has made about different time periods required in terms of stay at MDC , and so on , but that does not account for this kind of shifting in admissions, this change in the pattern. If she could perhaps explain again , or give some explanation for this change in admission policy. Mrs. Oleson: There has been, and I repeat, no change in admission pol icy.

The table that I am looking at, the information that I am looking at, which I circulated to the Member, lists, at the very top, 1st of April, 1987, 616 people in population, and now in April 1988, population 579 , which is less than 616 . There has been no change in policy. We believe that the work we are attempting to do with strengthening services in the communities will , in the long run, prevent readmissions to MDC. Some readmissions have taken place because of difficulties in the community that have happened and people have to, mostly for a short term , go back for many reasons.

There are some with a stabilization of medication , there can be several reasons, but there has been no change in policy of admission or discharge from MDC . The numbers that the Memb er is trying to indicate are huge are really not huge numbers. The populati on remains fewer than at the 1st of April in 1987. (The Acting Chairman , Mrs. Gerrie Hammond, in the Chair.) * (1620) 1789 Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I think the numbers speak for themselves.

If one compares all of April 1987 to March of 1988, to the first five months of statistics for the fiscal year '88, the increase is actually higher for those five months than the total admissions for the whole year previously. If you look at discharges, the numbers are clearly in marked contrast. I do not think I am reading these numbers wrong . The numbers show a clear shift in admissions, unless I am not reading this chart correctly, but I assume I am. It is a straightforward tabulation.

Could the Minister explain why then , if there has been no change in policy, the admissions for the first five months of '87-88 fiscal year are four times as high as for the same period , fisca l year '87-88 - or is that '86-87-sorry , and why the similar discrepancy in terms of progress with respect to discharges? Mrs. Oleson: Thank you, you surprise me. I cannot see where the Member is finding such a huge trend in these high percentages , because if you are looking at between May and August, for instance , of 1987, there were 22 discharges. If you are looking at April to August in 1988 there were 18.

Now, 22 to 18 does not indicate to me a huge trend. I think one thing we should be aware of in

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-49a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 49a.pdf
Language	en
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