Manitoba Hansard — 17 April 1996 (Sitting 19, 36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-19

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 19- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April 17, 1996 ISSN 0542-5492

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER. Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charles wood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Pion The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River � N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P.

P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

837 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April17, 1996 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Clerk (William Re mnant): I must inform the House that Madam Speaker has been unavoidably detained and theref ore I would request, in accordance with the statutes, that the Deputy Speaker take the Chair. {Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Seasonal Camping Fees Mr. Steve Ashton (Thom pson): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Sheila Nelson, Lois Kinsman, Dolores Cabernel and others urging the provincial governm ent not to increase seasonal camping fee s by such a large amount. Home Care Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Percy Bird, June Doblyn, Linda Brazeau and others requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Robert Hnatiuk, Cathy Walters , M.

Feliksiak and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr. Tim Sale (Cresce ntwood) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Dorothy Glover, Marion Marks, Alex Marks and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Seasonal Camping Fees Mr. Depu ty Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member fo r Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) and fmd that it complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave) . Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes. The Cle rk will read. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant) : The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS seasonal camping has provided an aff ordable fo rm of recreation fo r many Manitobans; and

WHEREAS the provincial governm ent has announced increases in seasonal camping fe es of up to 1 00 percent; and

WHEREAS this huge increase is fa r more than any cost-of-living increase; and

WHEREAS this increase will lead to many people being unable to aff ord seasonal camping. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the provincial government not to increase seasonal camping fe es by such a large amount. Home Care Services Mr. Depu ty Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member fo r Elm wood (Mr. Maloway) and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Clerk will read.

838 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 1996 Mr.

Cler k (Willi am Remnant) : The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on Decem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernm ent organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compro mised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. * (1 335 ) Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16 , 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernm ent organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Memben: Dispense. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and

April 17, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 839 THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourab le member fo r Burrows (Mr. Martindale).

It complies with the rul es and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourab le Member: Yes. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes. The Cle rk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the under signed citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services� and THAT on December 16 , 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board ; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongov ernm ent organizations, mainly private fo r-profit compa nies as well as the imple mentation of a user-pay system of home care ; and · THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and peop le's health being compro mised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change ; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health servi ces.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Film on) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider revers ing their plan to privatize home care service s. Mr. Dep uty Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes. The Cle rk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the unde rsigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promis ed not to cut health services� and THAT on December 16 , 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the com plete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for -profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and peop le's health being compro mised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change ; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services .

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider revers ing their plan to privatize home care service s. * (1 340) Mr. De puty Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the hono mable member fo r Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) . It

840 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April17, 1996 complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it Motion agreed to. the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 prov incial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on Decem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Ben Sveinson (Deputy Chairperson of Comm itte es): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs.

Render), that the report of the committee be received. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill201-The Aboriginal Solidarity Day Act Mr. Eric Rob inson (Rupertsland) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), that leave be given to introduce Bill201, The Aboriginal Solidarity Day Act (Loi sur le jour de solidarite a l'egard des autochtones), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presente d. Mr. Robinson: Mr. Deputy Speaker, June 21 has long been regarded by the first peoples of this continent as being a very sacred day.

I know in other cultures it is regarded as the longest day of the year, the summ er solstice. I know that in a time to come I will have an opportunity to speak about the meaning of this to First Nations people and other aboriginal people, and I will be calling upon colleagues from all sides of this House to support this bill.

I believe that it will do all Manitobans proud, especially aboriginal people in this province, by being the first group of legislators to acknowledge and recognize the contributions that have been made by Canada's original inhabitants and also taking into consideration their history, their language and their aspirations. Perhaps other provinces and, hopefully, our national governm ent will also follow our lead. Thank you very much. Motion agreed to. * * * Mr. Deputy Speaker: I inadvertently missed Notices of Motion so I ·will just return to that. *

(1345) Introduction of Guests Mr. Deputy Speaker: Before we pr oceed, I would like to draw the attention of the honourable members to the loge to my right where we have with us today the Honourable Harry Graham who was former Speaker and member for Birtle-Russell.

April 17, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 841 I would also like to bring to your attention that in the public gallery we have seated today from River Heights Middle School thirty-five Grades 7 and 8 students under the direction of Mrs. Mary Kirk and Mrs. Louise Gaston. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe). We have seated in the public gallery from the Red River Valley Junior Academy twenty-two Grade 8 students under the direction of Mr. Landry. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer).

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Home Care Program APM Report Release Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). For the last couple of weeks we have been asking the gov ernm ent to release reports, and specifically we have been asking the governm ent last week and this week to release the APM report that was paid for by taxpayers. The minister has said a number of things about this report: 1) he did not know whether there was a report, 2) that there may have been a report, that it may have had material in it, et cetera.

I would refer the Premier back to Hansard on May 27, 19 94, where the minister specifically states, " ... the work of APM with our department on the home care pro ject last year arrived at certain recommendations." Given the serious initiative of the Filmon government or the provincial government on home care and given that we have paid for a report by the APM consultants dealing and providing recommendations to his governm ent, will the Premier now order his Minister of Health to make public the APM recommendations and documents so that all Manitobans can see what we paid for on this very important public service called home care?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, the APM work with respect to home care was not the subject of a formal report. What the process involved and the arran gement involved was a process to facilitate the people who work for Manitoba Health in the provision of home care services in trying to identifY areas where improvements could be made. That is what was arr ived at. There was no formal APM report as the honourable member's question suggests.

The work that was done by Manitobans working on this pro ject led to the same kinds of conclusions that were arrived at in the Price Waterhouse report, some of the same ones. They did not obviously suggest user fees like the NDP-commissioned Price Waterhouse report did, but it identified problems, problems like gaps in services, inconsistencies amongst the regions, a sense of unfairness amongst staff and clients, and significant ineffi ciencies-the same kinds of findings as in the NDP commissioned Price Waterhouse report. Mr. Doer: The government is talking about a formal report.

People have been quoted as seeing the docum entation from the APM. The minister, himself, has said, we have recommendations. They have " ... arrived at certain r ecomm endations."-on May 27, 1994. He says it in Hansard on page 25 56, in 1994 . We do not want different answ ers different days to the same questions. I would like the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to stop the cover-up of recommendations and documents from the APM on the home care system and order his Minister of Health to make public all documents on home care from APM so all the public can see it. Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in that review the Department of Health found many of the same circumstances and conditions that the Price Waterhouse report found I do not disagree with honourable members and others who comment and make very positive comments about our Home Care program. The difference is that we have-in my position and the position of honourable members opposite-not quite yet achieved perfection. There are problems in the Home Care program, and yesterday the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) said, go back to the system we had in the first place.

Well, he wants a system, which by his own commissioned report, the Price Waterhouse report, tells us that there is no strategic data plan, inadequate hospital discharge planning practices, inappropriate discharges to home care, lack of proper discharge preparation and

842 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l7, 1996 potentially unsafe client situations. That is what he wants us to go back to. No. * (1350 ) Mr. Doer: Over the last couple of weeks and over the last couple of years , we have had diff erent answ ers to the same question from the same minister dealing with a home care consulting report that taxpayers have paid for on a vital service right now that people feel very strongly about. The minister talks about caring about Alzheimer patients and other patients in Manitoba who require home care services.

All of those groups, the seniors association, the disabled organizations that represent many of those people, have recommended against privatization. The governm ent has commissioned reports; they have recommendations in their possession. I would ask the Premier to stop the cover-up of the APM docmnentation and call the minister to account and release those docmnents and those recommendations right today. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I told the honourable Leader of the Opposition, there is no APM report.

I told him that what that was was a process to facilitate the Department of Health in addressing some of the problems that there are in the home care system. In his

preamble the honourable Leader of the Opposition identifies people with Alzheimer's disease and multiple sclerosis and others. We are in a labour dispute right now and the union in this case has agreed to look after less than l percent of the people in our home care system, those people who are te rminally ill who are going to die within three to six months. Those are the people that the union has agreed to provide services to.

Why will they not provide services to people menti oned by the Leader of the Opposition, people with Alzheimer's disease, people with multiple sclerosis, people with Parkinson' s disease, people with severe cases of arthritis and others who need these services? Why do they refuse to provide services to those people? Home Care Program Advisory Committee/ Appeal Panel Mr. Dave Cbomiak (Kildonan): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the governm ent, the minister, with much fanfare, set up an advisory committee on home care, a hand-picked committee, and he told us in the House that he did not want to tell them what their advice ought to be and he thinks we should show a little respect for this process and hear from the advisory council or the appeal panel. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we now find out that this advisory committee was not even given the plans to privatize before the government decided to privatize. They were given final results of privatization. My question for the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) is, how does the Premier expect the people of this province to have any confidence in this minister, in this governm ent, when the minister's own advisory committee is not even given data and information about privatization when that committee is the very one that is supposed to make reco1ll1llm'lations concerning home care in this province? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the advisory committee has been consulted repeatedly and will continue to be consulted, as will the appeal panel, which is, by the way, I remind honourable members, something they never thought to have for the clients of the Home Care program. Since having an appeal panel, we have been able to solve a lot of problems in the home care system, and our clients have been pleased about that. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we ask all kinds of people for their views. We ask people in advisory committees for their views. Sometimes we take their advice; sometimes we agree.

Indeed, in the present situation, there is no evidence that there is even consensus amongst the members of the advisory committee on the issues that we are discussing here. So, while I have great respect for each and every one of the m-and they were chosen for the advisory committee capacity because of their backgrounds representing consumers, representing providers of services; their advice is always going to be valuable to us-ultimately, the people of Manitoba asked this governm ent to make

April l7, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 843 decisions that are in the best interests of all Manitobans, and that is what we will continue to do. *

(1355) Advisory Committee Report Re lease Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the minister will not make public the Connie Curran recom mendations. He will not make public a single report or article- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member that there is no need for a

preamble or postamble to his question. The member could put his question now, please. Mr. Chomiak: My question to the Minister of Health is, will the Minister of Health today release the report and the recommendations of the ministerial advisory committee since it is being paid for by taxpayers' expense and we have a right to know what his own advisory committee had to say about the government's ill-fated plans to privatize? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Healt h): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would like to know the view of the committee with respect to whether they want to have their report released to the honourable member for Kildonan in view of the :tact that it seems that there is not a consensus in that committee. In any event, on the point being raised, I would suggest the honourable member address that question to the committee itself, remembering, as I have said, that it is my understanding that the view exp ressed is not one that is the subject of unanimity or perhaps even consensus. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, my final supple mentary to this Minister of Health: Can the Minister of Health explain to the people of Manitoba why he refuses to make public the Connie Curran recommendations, the recomm endations and advice of his own advisory committee, and why he was afraid to give his own advisory committee his plans to privatize home care before he privatized home care and gave it to them as a fait accompli? Can the minister explain that to the public of Manitoba? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Deputy Speaker, there is no Connie Curran report or recommendations.

I have answered the que stion already about the advisory committee. If the honourable member wants to access that, he can ask the committee himself for that. The APM con tract included a process, not a report with recommendations. It included a process which might well have brought forward recommendations from within the department, but they are not APM recommenda tions. Home Care Program Labour Dispu te-Contingency Plan Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, on April 12 this governm ent tabled their home care contingency plan, both the Minister of Health and the Minister of Labour.

Since that time, we find that there actually is no contingency plan in place and that the system or the process that this governm ent has said they are putting in place is a total mess, and this government in fact is responsible for initiating the strike in their attempts, their ill-conceived attempts to privatize the home care system in this province. Now we find that the Minister of Health has asked other governm ent emplo yees with no training, absolutely no training, to take over the jobs that were performed by the home care workers.

I want to ask the Minister ofLabour, is he aware by his governm ent's action that he is breaking the labour code of the province of Manitoba? In fact, he is in contravention of The Labour Relations Act of Manitoba. Bon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, the governm ent of Manitoba is very concerned that these patients and clients receive the appropriate care, and we have asked the governm ent union in this case to provide essential services.

Their response to the government is that they will provide care to 1 percent of the clients, those who are terminally ill and will die within three to six months. We have asked that the government union consider an appropriate essential services agreement. The union has consistently refused. I would ask those union members who care about patients to deliver that care. *

(1400) 844 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l7,1996 Mr. Re id: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am going to table some documents that the governm ent is utilizing to find replacement workers to replace those home care workers. My question is for the Minister of Labour.

How can he tell the clients of the home care system in the province of Manitoba that taking the clerical staff and other office working staff out of various governm ent departments without training is going to provide for the safety of those clients who rely so heavily on qualified trained staff to perform the necessary functions and duties that the home care service has been providing to the clients in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Toews: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we will take every reas onable step to ensure that the patients and clients who deserve care receive that care and I, for one, have great faith in our civil service that they are properly trained and when we ask them to perform tasks that they can perform those tasks. I have great faith in our civil service to do the right thing. Mr. Reid: Mr. Deputy Speaker, my final supplementary is to the Minister of Health. Can the Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae) tell the clients of the home care system, the public home care system in the province of Manitoba, how it is to their advantage on the safety and the service delivery to have people who are coming from other governm ent departments untrained and unskilled in the delivery of the home care system, to have those people go out and attend to the needs of the home care clients in the province? How is that going to attend to the safety and the needs of those home care recipients? Mr. Toews : Mr.

Deputy Speaker, as I indicated earlier, we are taking all the reasonable steps to ensure that these clients receive the care. What concerns me more is the attitude of a union that would call a strike vote before it even attended the first negotiating meeting that it scheduled. I have the

schedule here of the meetings that it asked us to participate at and when we said we would come to the table, they have a strike vote and refuse to negotiate at all. Who is in fuct caring about the people of Manitoba and these patients? I will tender this letter. Health Care System Advertising Campaign Mr. Steve Ashton (Thom pson) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, perhaps the Minister of Labour would care to put a vote on this issue to the clients of home care in Manitoba. Perhaps he would care to do that. My question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

We are seeing increas ing chaos in our health care system, whether it be the home care situation or Pharmacare or the cuts to eye exams . Day in, day out, we are seeing this governm ent is creating chaos, because less than one year after the last election they are breaking virtually every promise they made in health care. (Madam Speaker in the Chair) But, Madam Speaker, at the same time they have not refused to continue with the advertising campaign that has been developed with one Barb Biggar, the former communications secretary for the Premier.

I would like to ask the Premier, given the chaos in our health care system, will he at least now permanently cancel this PR campaign which is attempting only to deflect the real attention of Manitobans away from the chaos we have currently under this Conserva tive government in terms of health care? Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Madam Speaker, as long as honourable members opposite and their friends at the head of the unions in this province continue to feed the people of Manitoba with information that is not correct, I think it is necessary for the people of Manitoba to understand what is really happening. But I do not think I could possibly put it-if I practised for a week, I do not think I could put it better than Kelli Paige. Kelli Paige wrote a letter to a radio station and a couple of the newspapers.

In one very brief paragraph she puts it better than I could: I am presently still an MGEU member who voted no to strike action and am disgusted with the union and members who chose to walk out on thousands of sick and disabled seniors who need them.

April 17, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 845 Honourable members opposite want no services in these circumstances. Madam Speaker, I am with Kelli Paige. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, a lot of people were disgusted at this governm ent for runnin g- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson has been recognized for a supplementary question which requires no

preamble. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health if for once he could answer a very str aightforward, serious question, and that is, in this particular case, will he agree to put on hold the PR campaign to be run by one Barb Biggar? Will he take that money and reallocate it to the health care needs of Manitobans? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I do not think there is anything that has been done the last eight years that honourable members opposite have not asked us to put on hold. Where is the vision amongst honourable members opposite? Where is the leadership over there?

It just does not exist. If there is leadership, it is in the union halls of this province and it is very questionable leadership at that. Kelli Paige said something else, Madam Speaker, that I think honourable mem bers opposite would like to hear- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Madam Speaker, I raised the question about an advertising campaign to be run by one Barb Biggar.

Whatever rantings and ravings the Minister of Health wants to put on the record with his decade-old vendetta against the working people of this province he could have done yesterday in an emergency debate which we had reques ted, but he should not abuse Question Period by refusing to answer a very direct question about the priorities of this government putting forward- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I recognize this is a very serious issue and sensitivities and emotions are running high.

However, it is not in the best interests of the 57 leaders of the province in this Chamber, nor in the interests of the public, to continue to not come to order when requested to do so. *

(1410) Bon. J"un Ernst (Gove rnme nt House Leader) : On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, I would refer you and I would refer my honourable friend from Thompson, the opposition House leader, to Beauchesne Citation 416.(1), the last line of which I think puts it very succinctly: "A Member may put a question but has no right to insist upon an answer." Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson indeed has a point of order. I would remind the honourable minister to respond to the question being posed with relation to the reference cited by the honourable government House leader.

Indeed the minister does not have to respond, but the minister started to respond. I would also ask-order, please. Perhaps if there were less disruption in the House, everyone would clearly hear the question being asked and the response being given and there would be less interr uption of the proceedings in terms of points of order. Now, are we ready to proceed? * * * Mr.

McCrae: Madam Speaker, I am not going to ask that the question be read back, but the question was something to the effect that the public needs to know what is going on, except that.the honourable member for Thompson does not want us to tell the public what is going on. But the public needs to know how Kelli Paige feels and Kelli Paige writes: I do not want to work for the wrion or follow their directions. I want to work with all our clients that they have walked out on. I have been very tactfully threatened by my supervisor with regards to my job and with work after the strike.

She suggested- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

846 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l7, 1996 Point of Order Mr. Ashton: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, you just ruled that the Minister of Health was out of order. You indicated he did not have to answer questions but that he had not been following the Citation 417. The Minister of Health is now rising again after your ruling and continuing with exactly the same nonanswer he gave previously. Madam Speaker, I would like to ask if you will once again ask the Minister of Health to come to order and either answer the question or sit down. Mr.

McCrae: On the same point of order, I was answering the honourable member's question about infor mation for the public. The public needs to understand that there is another side of the story besides the one that is put out by honourable members opposite. Is he telling me that Kelli Paige's opinion does not count in this province, because the last I checked, we all had an opinion and we all had a right to express it, Madam Speaker. Public Sector Workers Esse ntial Services Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples) : My question is for the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). The threat of spring flooding still looms in Manitoba.

To complicate matters, Manitobans are not protected by an essential services agreement and during the spring of '96 a mnnber ofManitoba's public unions have opted for a recorded strike vote. Has the Premier issued any instructions to the Emergency Measures Organization regarding the possibility of spring flooding and a public sector strike coinciding during the spring of 1996? Bon.

Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): The Emergency Measures Organization is working in co-operation with all affected communities and potentially affected communities, and certainly we are of the opinion at this stage that preparation that can be made is being made. A number of possible scenarios could unfold in this province. Of course, all of us are hopeful that whatever the events that unfold, they have the least possible impact on Manitobans, their property and, of course, their well-being. Mr.

Kowalski : In the absence of an essential services agreement and the potential for a strike during a spring flood, has the Premier (Mr. Filmon) approached Manitoba's public sector unions to negotiate an essential services pact before placing Manitobans at risk? Bon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour) : As you know, there is no legislation in place in this province in respect of essential services agreements.

We work these things out voluntarily with our unions, and we see no reason why the negotiations in respect to the civil service, should there be any concern in that respect, that we cannot work out an agreement, Madam Speaker. We are in the process of doing that now. Mr. Kowalski : In light of the previous strikes where essential services agreements were not in place, the hospital strike, the home care strike, would they reconsider approaching the Manitoba public sector unions and negotiate an essential services agreement in the event of a spring flood? Mr.

Toews: I appreciate the question, and if the member wants any details as time goes on in respect of what we are doing in the area of essential services, I would be happy to sit down and discuss that with him. I know he is a very reasonable man, and he would want that information. Home Care Program Privatization Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellingt on): Madam Speaker, I would like to table a letter sent to the Premier on March 21, from a woman whose husband has muscular sclerosis, in which she states: What you are doing to the old and handicapped and the sick and their caregivers is cruel, callous in the extreme and beyond understanding. It shows a lack of understanding of a patient's needs for security and constancy. It shows a total lack of concern on the part of your governm ent for a group of people who are defenceless and ·without a spokesperson.

I would like to ask the Premier what his response is to this woman whose concerns reflect those of thousands of caregi vers, clients and families throughout the entire province of Manitoba. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : Madam Speaker, our intent is always to provide for the client's needs. Our

April17, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 847 intent is always to ensure the services that they depend upon, that they turn to government for, will be provided. Unlike the member opposite, who supports the right to unions to withdraw these essential services and who puts people such as she reads the letter from in jeopardy by her actions, we believe that there is a responsibility and we take that responsibility, and I would wish that the member opposite would support the patients and the ones who need care, rather than just stand in solidarity with their union boss friends. Ms.

Barrett: I would like to ask the Premier, will he not listen, why will he not listen to the caregivers, the families and the clients of Manitoba, who have said with one voice that it is the Premier and the Minister of Health who are jeopardizing the health of Manitobans, not the workers in the province of Manitoba, instead of listening to the blandishments of those who would profit by the home care system? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health) : I believe the honourable member referred to multiple sclerosis, I think it is, and I believe that might be one of those areas that the union will not agree to provide services under an essential services agreement during this strike. I do listen to home care providers such as Kelli Paige, for example, who writes: I am presently still an MGEU member who voted no to strike action and I am disgusted with the union. I will repeat that: I am disgusted with the union and members who chose to walk out on thousands of sick and disabled seniors who need them.

The honourable member claims to care for the client. If that is true, why will she not stand up for people who have multiple sclerosis? Why will the honourable member not do that? *

(1420) Post-Secon dary Education Government Policy Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley) : Madam Speaker, in other parts of the world one of the recognized keys to the new economies is the expansion of higher education, and it can even cross party lines. In Britain, in Singapore, or Paul Keatings 's Australia, all made substantial commitments to the expansion of higher education, in some cases doubling the participation rate. This is the real world of the 21st Century.

I want to ask the Minister of Education to tell us why the impact of her policies has been declining enrollments, downsizing and the reduction of educational opportunities for young Manitobans in post-secondary education. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): I am sony, Madam Speaker, I listened to the speech and I heard the last part of the sentence at the end of it, which was a declining enrollment, but I did not hear the few words that just went before that. I wonder if the member could repeat them. I think it was the beginning of a sentence.

If she could repeat that last sentence for me, so I understand what it is she is wanting me to say, I would be glad to respond, but if she could dispense with the speech, I would be grateful. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, to quickly repeat the question asked. Ms. Fries en: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Perhaps I could repeat the carefully worded sentence that I had.

In other parts of the world, one of the recognized keys to the new economies is the expansion of higher education, which crosses party lines, whether it be in Singapore, Australia, or in Britain, whose leaders have made substantial commitments to the expansion of participation rates in post-secondary education. Would the Minister of Education tell us why the impact of her policies has been declining enrollments, downsizing and the reduction of educational opportunities for young Manitobans? Mrs.

Mcintosh: The words that I missed hearing the first time through were the words "would the minister tell us why," and I now have those words. Of course, implicit in the question is an assumption which, unfortunately, is an erroneous assumption because the member infers that declining enrollment at universities across Canada is all attributed to me. While I appreciate the inference that I have so much power, I should indicate to her things that she probably knows, first of all, that trends always show when there are more jobs created enrollment at universities go down. That is historically

84 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April17, 1996 true, and we have created many, many more jobs in Manitoba this last year, the same as is happening in some other provinces. The member also knows that we have a larger enrollment at the community colleges because people are very interested in technologies and trades, and we appreciate that. We think that is good.

But, Madam Speaker, I have to indicate that the initiatives we have been putting in place have been encouraging enrollments at universities, 1 0 percent learning tax credit which will see 1 0 percent of all tuition fees paid refunded to the students being just one of many examples to encourage students into university. Ms. Friesen: I would like to table recent information from Statistics Canada showing that over their past five years of numbers, every province except Manitoba has achieved clear increases in post-secondary participation.

Will the minister tell us why Manitoba under her government is at the bottom of the league, below Newfoundland, below Saskatchewan, below New Brunswick, below Nova Scotia? Mrs. Mcint osh: Again, I did indicate Manitoba's superior performan ce in job creation vis-a-vis other provinces. I believe I started off by saying that, that we have one of the best records for that in Canada.

I also indicate, Madam Speaker, that depending upon which area you look at, if she wants to look at just university enrollments, which is what she normally does, then she can see that enrollments are down in other provinces as well because that is the trend. All post-secondary, of course, you will see a wide variety of things happening, including in Manitoba, workforce training, et cetera. I have to indicate that we have Scholarships for Tomorrow to encourage young women into sciences and engineering.

Those were implemented by our governrnent, and this is the second year for those scholarships, targeting women in science. I will continue on with the next question. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister explain how her refusal to maintain or even expand post-secondary education in Manitoba, and I am sure she will look at the Statistics Canada material I offered her, is this in any way linked to the creation of a low-wage, low-skill economy that is developing in Manitoba? Mrs.

Mcint osh: Madam Speaker, as with many of the things that have been tabled in the House, the member forgot to mention just one little tiny fact about this chart she has just tabled, and that is it is restricted to an age span, and we know that in Manitoba a large majority of our students do start university and post-secondary education in their mid-twenties. They do not necessarily always go straight from school.

She has these in the late teens and early twenties, and she is neglecting the very people she has talked about many , many times, all those older students over the age of 23 who do begin university in Manitoba. They are not in these statis tics. A little oversight-! am sure she did not intend to create a different impress ion with the House. Unfortunately, she did. I have to indicate, Madam Speaker, that as far as tuition fees are concerned, Manitoba rates extremely well with Canadian averages, and we do have a number of opportunities at colleges that are new initiatives and very much appreciated.

Disaster Assistance Municipal Compensation Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Governm ent Services. Today, we are on the verge of peak flooding conditions that may well exceed those of last year. Municipalities must cope with this year's flooding without having received full compensation from 1995, and federal officials state that they have yet to receive a claim from the province, even though guidelines for making a claim have been in place for 25 years.

Why did the Disaster Assistance Board tell municipalities they would be compensated for using their own equipment and personnel when federal guidelines and your ov.n provincial guidelines clearly provide only limited compensation for uncontracted services? Why were municipalities not warned about these guidelines that could now cost them thousands of dollars? Bon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): I thank the member for the question, Madam Speaker.

Clearly, he is unaware of the historical reality in this province and in others that have told us that they share the position and the concerns that Manitoba has taken.

April l7 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 849 There is a well-established practice that exists among federal and provincial governments and municipalities in terms of cost-sharing. It has, for many, many years, allowed for the inclusion of costs incurred by municipal par tners in using their own staff , in using their own equipment where they deem it appropriate. The member clearly is taking the uninformed position that the fe deral government is taking at this point in time, that the guidelines are to be interpreted religiously and meticulously but that precedent means nothing.

However , precedent should and does mean something to our people of Manitoba's municipalities because it is they who must fuce up to the challenges of responding to these floods , fires and other disasters when they occur, and it is they whom I stand up and support and this government stands up and supports continuously. We asked the fe deral government to resume its well established case, well-established precedents fo r supporting those municipalities when they encounter unpredictable circumstances that cause costs to be incurred.

We asked them to join with us in sharing that responsibility among all ratepayers and not isolating it to just those aff ected by flood and fire. Mr. Struthers : Madam Speaker, I am supporting the RM.s who are suff ering because this minister cannot get together with the fe deral people and work out their squabbling. I would like to table two letters- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I have been very, very lenient. I allowed, without interjection, the honourable member to have postamble. Would the honourable member please pose his question now. He was recognized fo r a supplementary question. Mr.

Struthers: I have tabled these letters, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the minister, if he has had these grievances with the fe deral government and the fe deral guidelines which are virtually the same as his own, why did he not accept five invitations to discuss these matters with fe deral official s? Why has he waited till the flooding is up to our ears bef ore he- * (14 30) Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Pallister: Thank you fo r the question, Madam Speaker. The member, as is all too common, is prof oundly confused.

The fe deral governm ent responded to our request to return to well-established precedents in the interest of fairness, and they came back to the province and asked fo r examples. They said that they had never cost-shared with municipalities. It appears to be the position that the member is taking as the lap dog of his fe deral friends who refuse to stand up for the municipalities of this province.

The fa ct is that our officials here in co operation-and I should mention with the unanimous support ofthe Union of Manitoba Municipalities and a resolution just passed the day bef ore yesterday by the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities, we have the full support of our municipal partners. The member opposite takes the position that precedent means nothing. This is the position currently being taken by the fe deral governm ent. They came back to us in Manitoba and asked us what examples we could provide them with where the fe deral government had cost-shared. We gave them over one thousand examples.

We await their common-sense response and return to sanity. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time fo r Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Law Day Mr. Mike Radcliff e (River Heights): Madam Speaker, today, April l7, is Law Day. This is an annual initiative of the Canadian Bar Association to celebrate Canada's legal system. As part of Law Day activities, the Manitoba bar will be holding free legal clinics, one at Eaton Place and one at the Convention Centre. Both of these clinics will be open today until 5 p.m.

In addition, from 11: 30 p.m. until fo ur o'clock on Sunday, April 21, the Bar Association and the Department of Justice will be holding a free open house

850 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l7 , 1996 at the LawComts Building. This year 's theme is Acce ss to Justice, and the open house will fe ature tours, infonnation on justice issues, booths and displays from agencies working in the justice system, a special sitting of the Citizenship Court and mock trials conducted by ele mentary, junior and senior high school students in English and French . I congratulate the Manitoba Bar Association and the Department of Justice, and encourage all Manitobans to attend. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity.

Immigrant Women's Association of Manitoba Annual Symposium Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, on Saturday, April 13, the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) and I attended the Immigrant Wome n's Ass ociation of Manit oba's annual symposium enti tled, Immigrant Families Facing the Realities of the 21s t Century. Qver 100 women and young people participated. 'Three keynote speeches were given by Dr.Ying Hoh, Rocky Gushuliak and Paula Prime.

There were four workshops addressing the impact of family violence on immigrant families , youth gangs and violence, adult education and training and youth career plannin g. Many specific recommendations carne out of the day's work. However, one theme threaded its way through the speeches, discussions and workshop activities.

If men, women, children and families are to succeed in the 21s t Century, they must have hope-hope that there will be a job for them at the end of their schooling; hope that women and children can live lives free from violence; hope that families can be reunited in Manitoba;hope that will keep young people studying their books rather than how to become a gang member. Without hope, no one will be able to face the challenges of the next millennium. The Immigrant Women's Association of Manito ba's symposium gave us hope, as well as excellent ideas and suggestions.

It is up to all of us to ensure that there is hope, for without hope, these ideas, suggestions and recommendations will not come to fruition. It would have provided us all with more hope if any member of the government benches had participated in this important event. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Home Care Services Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina) : Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House as the MLA for Pembina. I support horne care. Like those who make up the Manitoba Government Employees' Union, I support horne care , and I support a horne care that is sustaina ble.

Madam Speaker, this government seeks to take the monies collected through taxes and to spend them as wisely and as prudently as we can. After all, there is no money tree, and I would like to comment just briefly on that. During the last three years that the NDP formed the government, they ran a deficit of close to half a billion dollars just on health. Imagine, they spent close to half a billion dollars on health that they did not have. This government, on the other hand, is living within its means and we are spending more on health care than the members opposite ever did.

The amount of money that we direct to horne care has more than doubled since we carne to office in 1988. As a result, Madam Speaker, I can stand here proudly and say that I support horne care. I support a Horne Care program that will be here in the future because we acted responsibly in the present. This government is currently movin g to see how effi ciently taxpayers ' money is being spent on horne care. To that end, 25 percent ofWinni peg's horne care services will be the subject of competition .

My constituents tell me that they use their money as efficiently as they can, and they expect the government to do the same. We have been asked by the people of Manitoba to run this province with a balanced budget while simultaneously providing services such as horne care, and that is what we will do. Thank you, Madam Speaker . *

(1440) Ms. MaryAnn Mibychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, this provincial government cann ot find anyone other than the owners of We Care who donated $2,000 to the Cons ervative campaign, who recommended the privatization of horne care in this province . Even this government 's own-

April 17, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 85 1 Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind all honourable members that this is the time fo r members' statements and as private members every individual member deserves respect. I would ask fo r the co operation, order and decorum in the Chamber to the member who has been recognized on that privilege. Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, I appreciate that our side of the House did respect the honourab le members- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourab le member fo r St James does not need to debate.

Although I appreciate her support, I would ask that she continue with her member's statement, and she has approximately one and a half minutes remaining. Ms. Mihychuk: Even this gov ernment's own advisory commit tee's recommendations were not taken into consid eration regarding the very serious issue of privatizing an essential health care service. Connie Curran was paid $16 0,000 by the Tory gov ernment to do a report on home care. The Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) does not know where or what is in the report, or if the report is even completed, Madam Speaker.

The lack of consultation from the public, coupled with the Minister of Health's blatant incompetence, must be terrifying to Manitoba residents. A letter was written to Premier Filmon from a woman whose husband has MS and relies on home care. She wrote : Have you any idea how stressful it is fo r the primary caregiver to constantly have to explain to a stranger the workings of your hou sehold, how he likes his tea made, where the dishes are kept, which mug he can hold, why he cannot use a glass, what his likes and dislikes are?

Have you any idea how stressful it is to go out and not know whether you will come home to find your husband still in bed because he is unable to explain what he wants? When your government's plans were first made known, Mr. McCrae said that the client would see no diff erence in service. Believe me, when a stranger walks through our door on July 1, I will immediately see the diff erence. I have lain awake at night wonying about the future. The quality of care cannot possibly be the same when you propose to cut salaries by 40 percent.

Every report, Madam Speaker, that has been released publicly says that Manitoba has the best, cost -eff ective system in North America. This gov ernment is picking on the poor, the sick and the elderly in this provin ce. Health Care Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): During the 1995 election campaign, the Tory governm ent promised Manitobans that there would be no cuts to health care. Ho wever , according to current actions undertaken by the provincial governm ent and as reflected in the 1995-96 provincial budget, this promi se to preserve our health care system has been broken.

Pharmacare has been cut by 34.4 percent in the last Tory budget which is a $20- million cut to Manitob a's Pharmacare service. As a result, 100,000 Manitobans have lost Pharmacare coverage. In addition, under the Filmon government, Pharmacare deductibles have risen by more than 52 percent despite the Conserva tives' 1988 pro mise to tie deductible increases to the level of inflation. These increases impose new taxes on the poor, the sick and the elderly within this province and in particular within the core inner-city areas of Winnipeg.

This governm ent has also eliminated subsidized eye exams for everyone who is 19 to 64 years of age. This elimination of such an essential service was done without any public consultation. This governm ent has unilaterally targeted those who suff er the most within our society, the poor, the sick and the elderly. It has become clear that this present governm ent does not believe in medicare. In support of my assertions, I point to another very important issue, the privatization of home care. Once again, the gov ernment has made this decision with no consultation from the people involved.

According to the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), there will be no savings to taxpayers by privatizing a $91- million contract. However, with the privatization of home care will come fe es fo r so-called noncore services. The gov ernment, however, will not say what these noncore services are. Every report that has been released publicly says that the Manitoba Home Care program is the best in North America and cost-eff ective. So why is the go vernment privatizing this public service? It is because this Tory go vernment is giving fa vours to their friends at the expense of all Manitobans . The government wants to

852 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l7 , 1996 privatize home care so that their friends can make large profits off the sick and elderly. This government should be ashamed of itself ORDERS OF THE DAY Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader) : Madam Speaker, I mo ve, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Connnittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty, with the honourab le member fo r La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinso

n) in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the hono urable member fo r St. Norbert (Mr. Laurend eau) in the Chair fo r the Department of Executive Counci l. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 25 5, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Health. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 1. (b XI) on page 71 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? The honourab le member fo r Kildonan, I believe, though, in recognizing the honourab le member, he would remember that he had asked a question and the minister was going to answer it when we last left the committee. Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr.

Chairperson, just fo r clarification, as I understand it, I had just wound up asking the minister whether he would table his studies and documentation justifying and indicating his recommendation to privatize the home care service s. * (1 520) Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Yes, I have been sharing a lot of information with my honourab le coll eague, and I intend to continue to do that, Mr. Chairman. We have the view today made known to the Winnip eg Sun, the Winnipeg Free Press and CJOB the point of view of a unio nized caregiver with the Home Care pro gram.

I discussed this briefly in Question Period earlier on, and I think I would like to share this in its entirety with honourab le members . The letter is dated April 16, 1996, and it is addressed To Whom This May Concern. It is from a home care worker by the name of Kelli Paige-P-a-i-g-e. I expect that both respons ible newspapers in the city will have this printed in its entirety promptly, as well, but I wo�d like honourab le members to have it on the record of this committee. To Whom This May Concern, This is a copy of a letter that I have sent to the Winnipeg Sun and CJOB- Point of Order Mr.

Chomiak: A point of order, Mr. Chairperson, just fo r purposes of clarification, I am won �g � th� C� might give me some advice or some dir� on m � regani. I believ e I asked the minister a question about his studies a very specific question about the gov ernm ent priv�tion of home care, and asked the minister to table or to provide these documents to members of the connnittee with respec t to the privatization of home care.

Whil e I appreciate the minister does not have to answ�r the question, I am not sure if the minister can go o� m tangent and simply read into the record documentation that have no relevance whatsoever to the question. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I am ruling that the honourab le member does not have a point of order, and I will explain why. When we started these Estimates, we said there would be a wide -ranging scope of questions and answers , and it has done just that The member is asking a que stion, and the member fo r Kildonan asked a question. The

preamble takes him appro ximately five to 10 minutes of que stions, comments and in some-no, _I . guess not answers, but the questions are put to the IDlDlster. �ow we are askin g for one specific question. Those questions were put yesterday. So, indeed, I am letting the � answer it in his way today, and I would ask that if we

April 17, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 853 want a particular question answered, put that question and not five others . Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, are you ruling that if I ask a specific question on a specific point, the specific question and the specific point should and must be addressed by the minister? Beca use that is how I hear your ruling. Mr. Deputy Chairper son: That is not what I said. The ruling within Beauchesn e--order, please, while I get this.

To finther elaborate, questions and answers put in committee can indeed be far-ranging, but it has to be relevant to the Estimates at hand, and the minister may answer that question however he chooses, just as the members have the right to ask that question however they choose. Mr. McCrae: I will do my best not to try to bully the honourable member for Kildonan and tell him what questions to ask and how to ask them, and I would appreciate reciprocal courtesy. * * * Mr. McCrae: I will begin the letter again from Kelli Paige. It says: To whom this may concern.

This is a copy of a letter that I have sent to the Winnipeg Sun and CJOB. I have previously sent one to the Free Press which was not published. I am presently still an MGEU member who voted no to strike action. I am disgusted with the union and members who chose to walk out on thousands of sick and disabled seniors who need them. I will pause there briefly. Mr. Chairman, earlier today, the honourable member for Transcona (Mr.

Reid) made it clear where he and his colleagues in the New Democratic Party stand when he took great exception to anyone who would actually report to work and provide service to needy and vulner able Manitobans. Point of Order Mr. Chomi ak: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, I believe you just ref erred to the question of relevan ce.

I am wondering what the minister 's comments in the House or ref erence to a comment of another honourable member in the House have any relevance whatsoever to either the question that was posed by myself or in fact the attempted answer and response by the minster, because surely it is obvious that the minister 's comments completely are outside the scope of relevance. Comments of other members in the House do not bear any relevance whatsoever to the question posed by either this member or by the minister 's initial respo nse. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: I want to remind members that their remarks should be kept relevant to the matter before the committee. I will read for the benefit of the committee-[intetj ection] No, I will not go into that part; it is not ne cessary to go into that part. I would ask all members to keep their remarks relevant to the matter at hand . I would also like to point out that in the Estimates book, we have started out on I.( b) (1) on page 71. It leaves it quite wide open for questions and answe rs. Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Chairperson, the honourable membe r's repeated interruptions to raise technical and legalistic type argwnents with respect to what I am trying to say here today remind me of the story of a senior lawyer telling the younger lawyer how to proceed in court. Point of Order Mr. Chomiak: A point of order, Mr. Chairperson, I would ask you to call the minister to order. Not only is he challe nging your ruling by commenting on the ruling, but he is again totally irrelevant to the point at hand. I wish the minister would addre ss the very serious issues that we are posing on behalf of the public. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson : Order, please. I do rule that the honourable member for Kildonan does have a point of order and would ask the minister to be relevant in his answers or to keep his answers relevant. Thank you. * * * Mr. McCrae: With regard, Mr. Chairman, to the point raised by the honourable member , I am reminded of the story of the senior lawyer telling-this is in respect to the

854 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 1996 honourable member's question and if the honourable member would be courteous enough to hear me out, as they say in court, I will try to link it up. The senior lawyer said to the junior lawyer, well, when you are before the judge and the jury and you do not have much in the way of evidence, pound the law, and when you do not have the law really working fo r you, pound the evidence, and when you have neither law nor evidence, patmd the desk .

I think maybe the honourable member is either pounding the law books or pounding the desks today because he certainly does not have much else. I will continue the letter I was reading, but I was making a comment, and this is very relevant because the honourable member is asking me questions about home care. The point that was raised today by the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) made the position of the New Democrats clearer than ever if it was ever necessmy to be clearer, because their activities with their friends in the union movement are well known and they are not even red fa ced about it, Mr.

Chairperson. The position of the member for Transcona enunciated on behalf of his colleagues in the New Democratic Party is that they object to services being provided to vulnerable people in Manitoba. They absolutely object to people with multiple sclerosis, for example, mentioned earlier today by the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that they should actually get services during a labour dispute when the precious rights of union bosses have to rule supreme in this province and make victims out of the clients of our home care system.

I could not disagree more, but I think it is important and very relevant that it be very clearly on the record the position that the NDP takes in this matter. They do not even want me to read into the record a letter written by one of the union members. Now, I do not quite understand. I guess if you are a union member who disagrees with the union boss, you are supposed to be intimidated, you are not supposed to be heard. Where is the democracy in the union movement and where is the democracy in the NDP? They will go to the people and tell them that we are here to represent the interests of the people.

Yet, every time there is a competition between the rights of the people and the rights of their union boss friends, their union boss friends prevail every single time. It is sad to watch. It is indeed disgusting. I agree with Kelli Paige, and it speaks volumes about exactly where the New Democrats are coming from and where they would like to take us. * (1 530) The letter continues: I called your office last week to continue working through the strike and was helped and told what to do, but, thanks to my supervisor, who is pro union, that was not possible.

She will give me some assignments, no doubt the union-approved ones with palliative care, but not the regular run. I do in our block project where I can care fo r several people instead of one. I do not want to work for the union or fo llow their directions. I want to work with all our clients that they have walked out on I have been very tactfully threatened by my supervisor with regard to my job and with work after the strike. She has suggested I find work in a hospital or somewhere. That part of the letter, Mr. Chairman, is handwritten. The next part of it is typewritten.

It is from Kelli Paige, and it is to the Winnipeg Sun news desk. I have been fo rtunate enough to have been a continuing student in health care over a period of time and have always maintained employment at the same time. In some of the courses I took and lectures I attended, we were aware that our health care system, as is, was going to have to change in the future in order to be able to continue servicing people. However, this is not what I want to elaborate on, so I will get to the point of my letter.

I am fed up with the media's coverage and advertisemen ts on the MGEU strike over contracting out health care services by Jim McCrae. All the advertisements clearly state that the government home care workers are the only people qualified for the job of caregivers to the thousands of sick and disabled clients out there and that staff from private companies are untrained, unqualified and incompetent as caregivers. The staff from these private companies are being humiliated daily because of the union's strategy plans to acquire public backing and support.

First of all, if you watch the advertisements these private companies are running or talk to them, you will find out that all but one of these private companies require trained, qualified, licensed, certified staff with minimum Grade 12. They

April l7 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 855 are also reputable com panies that have been established fo r a long time. I am an MGEU member who voted no to strike action. Why? First of all, Jim McCrae is taking responsibility fo r his actions . Now, the union and its members that choose to strike should take respo nsibility fo r their actions instead of trying to tell us that this is also Jim McCrae's :fimlt. You do not turn your back and walk out on thou sands of sick and disabled clients. You just do not do it and then turn around and blame so meone else fo r it.

There is a line you draw, an unwritten rule for humanitarian reasons, because nothing you can say justifies what you have been doing to these clients. Nothing you can say justifies what you have been doing to these clients. A job I can get anywhere, but my principles and standards along with the morals that I have acquired through my life do not belong to the union to use fo r their sham they are tJ:ying to pull off on the public. They are good. I will give them that, but I am hoping that the public, especially the seniors, start to realize that there is something wrong with this picture.

If you have what it takes to be able to walk out on all your clients that you are saying so desperately need you, you do not turn around and in the same breath tell them that you are doing it because Jim McCrae made you or that you are mad at the gov ernment or there is no other alternative and then expect the public to buy that garbage. Please do not start with your slogan of we care about the quality of care our clients will receive from private comp anies if the government contracts out home care. I have sat at your union meeting when you fo und out home care was planning on being privati zed.

I sat with staff who were predicting deaths of clients in the event of a walkout. I talked continually to union reps and vo �unteers who phoned continu ally leading up to the strike, and I am saying to you, this strike has nothing to do with privatiza tion or the quality of care clients will receive as a result of privatization. This strike is about wages, benefits and jobs and that is all. The union is using all of these seniors as pawns in �eir game with the gov ernment to keep from losing their JObs.

I wonder if the public knows that the gov ernment home care system uses untrained, unqualified, staff as home care attendants fo r our clients. Our head office at 189 Evanson Street has in the past and has presently held one-week cour ses, three hours a day, to train people as HCAs and then put them out to care and work with their clients.

Sure, there have been some clients who have complained about a worker they might have been sent from one of the private com panies, but I can assure you that there are many, many clients who have complained more about the gov ernment home care workers they are sent. * (1 540) I have heard these complaints from clients. I have been called in to replace them, and I have watched other go vernment employees complain about them also.

In the time that I have been employed with our provincial government Home Care program, I have been double booked with clients involved in mixups from the office and seen clients forgotten about completely. None of this was done deliberately, nor was the government 's fault. What it all boils down to is that there is good staff and bad staff in every health care facility in Canada. Some places are better screened fo r staff than others. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, can the minister table any studies or reports recommending the privatization of home care? Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Chairman, I will refer at length to a report com missioned by the New Democratic Party that points to the need fo r improvements which it is clear can be brought about by the kind of flexibility that can be brought about through the introduction of competition. The henourab le member is not talking about privatization. We already have privatizati on. The private nonprofit organization Victorian Order ofNurses has been handling the nursing function in the Home Care program fo r many years, the program the honourable member- Point of Order Mr. Chom iak: On a point of order, Mr.

Chairperson, when I asked fo r a ruling and clarification several minute s ago, we indicated that the minister ought to be answering specific questions within the specific questions as posed.

856 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l7 , 1996 I had posed a very specific question about tabling reports with respect to the privatization of home care, and as is usual the minister is off on a tangent that is not relevant to the specific question or even closely relevant to the question that was asked. Now, Mr. Chairperson, I specifically asked that question because in your previous ruling you had talked about the breadth of questions. So I specifically asked a specific question asking the minister for a specific answer, and I ask you to call him to order and try to deal with the question as posed. Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Chairman, on that point of order, I believe the member fo r Kildonan asked if the minister could table any studies that would indicate why the gov ernm ent should look at privatization. The minister responded, what we are looking at is not privatization but rather flexibility and competition, and, indeed, he did have a study that showed why we needed to move in that direction because of flaws in the current system.

He was beginning to quote :from that study, which happened to be com missioned by the NDP and recommended user fee s, when the member fo r Kildonan said he did not want to hear the answer to the very question he put. I submit he does not have a point of order but rather was trying to prevent relevant inf ormation :from being put on the record . Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. To try to make it a little bit clearer fo r the member fo r Kil donan- [inteij ection] Order, please. I will take your point of order as soon as I am finished.

I have asked all members to try to keep their questions and answers relevant to the matters at hand. I have also stipulated and stated right :from the beginning of these Estimates that, in fa ct, this particular area that we are discussing now is far -ranging. The member fo r Kildonan can ask the question that he chooses, and I said that the minister has the right to answer that question in the way he choo ses.

Once we proceed further on in the Estimate s, in the next part, if you will, I will then ask the members to be more relevant in their answers and the questio ns, but at this point, the minister is not out of order. * * * Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, the honour able member and his colleagues support a movement which bullies and intimidates ordinary people. Well, I will not let the honourable member for Kildonan bully and intimidate me. I am here to represent the people of Manitoba.

I am here to represent the interests of the clients of the Home Care program, and I will not let the member fo r Kildonan and his union :friends bully and intimidate me. They can do that to ordinary worki ng people and scare people who are clients of the home care system, if that is what they think will help them achieve their ends , but I will not sit here and allow the member for Kildonan and his colleagues in the New Democratic Party bully and intimidate me.

I will continue reading the letter that has been brought to my attention, written by Kelli Paige to the Winnipeg Sun, which I am sure will be printed in tomorrow 's edition in its entirety, as fo llows : I have heard people say that Jim McCrae is just lining the pockets of the private companies with privatization while the taxpayers have to pay fo r it. What about the phenomenal amount of taxes you are paying now fo r a health care system that is set up and structured to allow fo r horrendous abuse by every level of employee? You do not think it is being done?

You are paying more taxes now than you ever will by having a private company care fo r our clien ts. I had a union rep who worked with us as an HCA in the block pro ject we do. She is sitting alongside Peter Olf ert on the union panel ri ght now. I was told by her to bill fo r full time allowed even if it is not required because it will ruin it fo r everyone else. Another time, I received a page :from her on my pager telling me that someone was cancelling, but it was not going through the office so to still bill fo r it and get paid.

We get generous time for saf ety checks, bathroom calls, baths, et cetera, that do not require aii)Where near the time we are allowed, but I was told to bill for it anyway. This is the kind of stuff that members of the New Democratic Party want to have us pre serve. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I am having trouble hearin g the honourab le minister because of a number of mem bers at this commit tee table, and I would

April l7 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 857 ask that we maybe move out into the hallway or over into the seats over here, so that we can carry on with the Estimates. Mr. McCrae: I will read this last one again because I think it is important to emphasize that this is the sort of thing that the NDP wants to preserve, because you see yesterday the member fo r Kildonan said, go back to the system we had in the first place. He wants to see this sort of thing contin uing.

We get generous time fo r saf ety checks, bathroom calls, baths, etcetera, that do not require anywhere near the time we are allowed, but I was told to bill fo r it anyway. This was brought to mysupervisor's attention. Nothing was ever done about it, to my knowl edge. We have clients who no longer require the amount of care or time originally allotted them that are not being reassessed. Why? Well, one reason is that this keeps all of us casual, classified employees employed full time right from HSW s to supervisors and case co-ordinators while you as taxpayers pay fo r it.

This is what the members of the New Democmtic Party stand fo r, Mr. Chairman, and they will fight and fight and fight. (Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair You know, when I think about it from the client's point of view, I think the New Democrats would rather fight than win, because here we are looking at an opportunity to make improvements in a program that is so important to thousands of our fe llow Manitobans and they want to stand in the way of it; in fa ct, they want to stop it.

In fa ct, in the process they would like it if people received no service and, I guess, by extension, see their conditions deteriorate or perhaps wors en. That is what the NDP stands fo r. They are so firm in their principles that they will use elderly Manitobans and disabled Manitobans as pawns. They will not let their interests get in the way of their relationship that has been described as organic fusion with their union boss friend s. My honourab le member says I know about relationships.

The honour able member fo r Kildonan has ample opportunity to counsel his friends in the union movement to put a stop to this foo lishness. He has done nothing. In fa ct, he has been actively engaged in trying to deny clients service. So let him not tell me too many things about relationships. The letter continu es: There are hundreds of us, home care direct-service wo:rkers who want to work and are not intimidated by the threats- * (1 550) Point of Order Mr. Chomiak: The minister indicated that members of the Legislature were actively engaged in trying to deny service to home care clients.

I wonder if imputing that kind of motive is in fact a parliamentary statement and, if it is not, I would ask the minister to withdraw that. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): The minister would like to speak to the point of order. Mr. McCrae: On the point of order, I do not wish to impute any motives that are not there, but what else am I supposed to conclude when I heard not a peep from the New Democratic Party when the union decided to set a strike date before discussions even began.

I did not hear a peep from the members of the New Democratic Party when the union would not agree to provide essential services to people with Parkinso n's disease, people with multiple sclero sis, people with Alzheimer's disease, people with serious cases of arthritis, people who need home care services. I did not hear a peep from the New Democra ts. So I can only conclude what I can conclude from that sort of thing, Mr. Chairman. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): I will put a rule on the first point of o:rder first The member for Kildonan does not have a point of order . To the second point of order, please.

Mr. Chomiak: Yes, I will withdraw that second point of order, Mr. Chairperson. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Thank you. The minister, to continue, please. * * * Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, there are hundreds of us home care direct-service workers who want to work and are not intimidated by the threats and intimidation tactics

858 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l7 , 1996 of a corrupt system organized by these union bosses and inside staff in prof essional positions that are working together to further confu se the emergency plans trying to be set up. Mrs. Mcintosh: Just fo r clarification, is the Minister of Health now beginning to read again from Kelli' s-[interj ection] I am sorry, the woman there speaking, I cann ot remember her name , but I wish she would not. Is the Minister of Health now quoting again from Kelli' s letter to the Sun or whomever she wrote it to?

I want to know if those are your words or hers that are coming thro ugh. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): The honour able minister, please, for clarification on that. Mr. McCrae: I thank the honourab le Minister of Education and Training for wanti ng to get that clarified because indeed these are not my words, although many of them, it is easy fo r me to adopt. I know that while the honou rable Minister of Education and Training was trying to get that important clarification, the honourab le member for Osborne (Ms.

McGiff ord) felt that she would like to get involved in the discussion, and I remind the honour able member fo r Osborne that it might do her good to listen to what this particular union member has to say about this matter. This is a card-canying person into whose pockets the union has its hands to take her money on a regular basis, and this is the way the union represents the intere sts of Kelli Paige who simply, maybe-! assume Kelli Paige is a woman, but I do not know that.

I do know that the union has its hands in her pockets taking money out, and the union mo vemen t provides all kinds of dollars to New Democrats across this country. I think that this person is entitled to be heard. If the honourab le member fo r Osborne does not think that Kelli Paige has a legitimate view to be made available to members of this committee, then let her say that. If she thinks there is something wrong with Kelli Paige wanting to provide services to people who need those services, let the honourab le member fo r Osborne say that.

The hono urable member fo r Osborne only speaks with the microphone turned off She will not put her views on the record. That is unf ortunate . Point of Order Mr. Chom iak: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, with reference to the Chairperso n's recent ruling on rel evance, I wonder what possible relevance the minister's constant attack on members has to do with the answering of the question whatsoever . I know the minister likes to bully, but I think that he ought to answer the question as put. On the same point of order, Mr.

Chairman, at the risk of some repetition, I am like Kelli Paige, I guess, because I refuse to be threatened and intim idated by members of the New Democratic Party who, by organic fusion, are joined to the union movement in this provin ce. I refuse to be intimidated by the tactics of the member for Kildooan who decides to pound the law books every time he turns on the microphone because he does not have anything else to pound. They can obj ect all they like. They will hear in this committee room the views of ordinary working Manitobans who simply want to provide services to vulnerable Manitobans .

If they do not want to hear it, they can close their ears, but they will not stop me from putting on the record the views of ordinary Manitobans whom I am here to represent. (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Deputy Chairperso n: Order, please. On the point of order, I would ask all members , again, to keep the questions and answers as relevant as possible. The minister now has about thirty seconds left to finish his answer. * * * Mr.

McCrae: It is a downright shame that time does not permit me, at least at this point, to complete putting the views ofKelli Paige on the record of this commit tee, but I want Kelli Paige and the clients of home care to know that there are people in this Legislature who do care about them and who care about their inter ests. Mr. Chom iak: The minister was unable to table any docmnen ts or studies supporting the gov ernm en t's move to privatize, and one could only conclude, therefore , that there are no documents or studies to privatize , and one can theref ore conclude-

April 17 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 859 Point of Order Mrs. Mcinto sh: Mr. Chairman, I maybe misheard part of the dialogue, but I thought I distinctly heard the Minister of Health, when asked if there was any study that would verify or justifY the actions of the government, I distinctly heard him ref er to a 1987 report, a study commi ssioned by the NDP which am ongst other things recommended user fees. I distinctly heard him say that he made ref erence to that study. So when the member fo r Kildonan says-[inteijection] He did. He has a point of order on something that did not happen . Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Mr. Chomiak: I think it is fa irly clear that the member has no point of order, Mr. Chairperson, with respect to- Mr. Deputy Chairperso n: The honou rable member fo r Kildonan, I will make the ruling-[inteijection] Order, please. Mr. Cho miak: -and I am making that argument on the basis that it is a dispute over the fa cts. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourab le Minister of Education does not have a point of order; it is a dispute over the fa cts. The honourable member fo r Kildonan, to finish his question. * * * Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, I wonder if the minister, who is so quick to read a letter into the record and who has fhlled to answer questions in this committee now into the second day, can outline fo r us specifically what the government plans are in the short term and the long term with respect to the redirection of home care ftrst brought to public attention by the release of the Treasury Board document dated September 16, 1995 . Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Chairman, on February 3, 1995, as reported in the Winnipeg Free Press-I know the honou rable member reads newspapers . lfh e reads that, he will get a hint of the direction that we are going to be going and have been going since. By the way, he has asked for studies that support the kinds of things we are doing. The honour able member does not need to ask. He was there at Seven Oaks Hospital the day bef ore. That was February 2, 1995 .

He was there the day bef ore at Seven Oaks Hospital to very, very carefully and grudgingly give support and compliment the Seven Oaks Hospital and We Care Home Health Services, who were the participants in that particular project, and there was a report and I know he has seen that. So you know the honoura ble member is asking fo r stuff over and over again that he has already got. I mean I guess he does. * (1 600) Did he not read it? I think he did.

You know, he has got to do his job for his union- boss friends and he has got to keep asking questions, so he will just keep doing that, but that report is available, and as the honourab le member has seen it, surely I do not need to make it available to him again. It was made available to him on February 2, 1995, and, if I recall correctly, Mr. Chairman, that was before the last provincial election , and it was front -page news .

It was no secret to anybody where I stood, and in those days the hono urable member was talking about We Care in some sinister sort of circum stances that give rise to the participation of a private- Mrs. Mcinto sh: An award-winning busines s. I was there when they got their award- Mr. McCrae: That is right. My honou rable colleague and friend, the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Mcintosh), reminds me that particular company was given a national award. One of the principals of that company, Bev McMaster, was named Businessperson of the Y ear by the Chamber of Commerce in Brandon.

This particular person was also named by the YWC A in Brandon as a Woman of Disti.nction fo r her contributions to business and to health, but because this person is from my constituency, of course, that really puts some sinister ideas into the mind of the honourab le member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) . I suppose, if a company were to enj oy some succes s in Kil donan, who would be the first one to be on those coattails in Kildonan? It would be the honourab le mem ber. It says a little bit about the hono urable member, but I guess it would not be parl iamentary to say just exactly what.

860 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 17, 1996 Mr.Chairman, I will continue reading the letter that Kelli Paige wrote to the Winnipeg Free Press, the Winnip eg Sun and CJOB Radio, as follows: There are hundreds of us home care direct-service workers who want to work and are not intimidated by the threats and intimidation tactics of a corrupt system, organized by these union bosses and inside staff in professi onal positions that are working together to further confuse the emergency plans trying to be set up. I wonder what threats.

We know about the threats and intimidation Kelli Paige has already been subjected to, compliments of the NDP and the union, but I wonder what Kelli Paige is going to have to put- Point of Order Mr. Chomiak: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, I believe it is unpar liamentary to suggest, or even remotely, that the NDP has threatened and intimidated this particular individ ual. [inteijection] Mr. Chairperson, I cannot hear myself think because the member for Assiniboia is babbling on.

It is totally inappropriate for the minister to not only suggest but to, in fact, indicate that there are some kinds of threats and intimidation. In fact, it is unparliamentary for the minister to suggest that the union did it, but, for the minister to suggest that we as a political party, our political mem bers, do it is completely and totally out of order. Mrs. Mcinto sh: On the same point of order, Mr. Chairman, I find this rather amusing and absolutely revealing that the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) assumed that the Minister of Health was talking about the NDP.

I did not hear the Minister of Health say "the NDP" when he wondered aloud if Kelli-and again I have forgotten the last name, I am sorry-Kelli Paige might be subject to further intimidation because she "Tote the letter . He did not say, by the member for Kildonan and the NDP. But the member for Kildonan made that assumption, which I find most inter esting. I submit he has no point of order . I do not know why he came to that con clusion; nobody else did. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Chairman, on the same point of order raised by the honourable member for Kildonan, and we must have a record here today for points of order raised by this honourable member. It is not me here . This is Kelli Paige, an MGEU card-carrying, dues-paying member, who is making these allegations, and the alle gation is threats, intimidation tactics of a corrupt system, organized by these union bosses and inside staff in professional positions, et cetera, et cetera. It is not me saying that, and, if I said something unparliamentary, I would withdraw an ything unparli amentary that I have said. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Okay, the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) does have a point of order. The wording, as it was put, was impugning motive , and I would ask the honourable minister to remove those words. I do thank the minister because he has already said that he would withdraw those words. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, just in case it is not clear, I withdraw again any offending words that I have used. * * * Mr.

McCrae: I will continue reading the letter from Kelli Paige as follows: There are hundreds of us home care direct-service workers who want to work and are not intimidated by the threats and intimidation tactics of a corrupt system, organized by these union bosses and inside staff in profess ional positions that are working together to further con fuse the emergency plans trying to be set up. All this to put pressure on Mr. McCrae in the public's eye and shift the blame on him in the eyes of our clients again. I will stop there for a moment. Would it be unparliamentary, Mr.

Chairman, to suggest that the NDP condones this sort of thing? I seek your clarification on that. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I would ask that the mini ster use his words very cautiously and proceed with his comments, and at the point that a point of order is called, I would indeed rule on it. Mr. McCrae: Well, I will not come right out and say that the NDP condones this kind of threat and intimidation tactics of a corrupt system. I will not adopt those words of my own. But how do memb ers of the NDP respond to working, card-carrying, dues-paying members of the union who make those kinds of

April l7 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 861 allegations? Do they just like to sweep it under the caipet because democracy is a meaningless expression in the NDP and the union movement? Is that what they would tell Kelli Paige in response to allegations by Kelli Paig e of threats, intimidation and tactics of a corrupt system which the NDP daily is there defending their union boss friends in the House? Refusing to stand up for people with Parkinson's disease? Refusing to stand up for people with multiple sclerosis? Refusing to stand up for people with Alzheimer's disease?

Refusing to stand up for people with severe cases of arthritis, and saying to them we object to people providing service to you? This is what we are up against, Mr. Chairman, and the people ofManitoba do not know all of the things that the New Democratic Party supports. They do not know. If they did, there would not be 20 of them in our Legis lature, if that is how many they have got-2 1 or whatever it is, too many, whatever. None of them would be there if the people really knew what the NDP stood for.

Taking people's groceries out of their shopping baskets and tiuowing them on the ground and hissing and shouting and spitting and slashing tires and breaking windows and bombs, I think, have been mentioned. All these sorts of things. Why does the NDP not stand up and say, enough, stop, we object to this, we want no part of this, we do not want to be associated with any kind of organization that condones or does those sorts of things? Why is it the NDP does not do that? I leave it for them to respond.

The letter written by Kelli Paige continues as follows: I told my employer right from the start that I did not back a walkout in this area of work we do. I never once turned down an assignment from her. I worked 14-hour days for her, any shifts, and was available whenever she called. She told me how much she appreciated me and how I have helped her greatly, and, if I ever needed a reference, there would be no problem whatsoever. This is Kelli Paige talking about her supervisor who she says is a union sympathizer. The letter continues: That was before I would not back the strike action. I asked her to work.

I asked her for a schedule. I asked her for a reference. All I got from her was, I do not know. I called Jim McCrae's office and asked them for help because I wanted to work during the strike. They helped me, informed me, and told me what would be happening, and that I would continue to work with all my clients still. But I am sitting at home this morning with no work. My supervisor either moved all my clients into the hospital or brought in their backup service, Central Health, to take them at a higher cost to the governm ent than what it would cost for me to continue giving them care.

The same time that I was telling the clients that I would continue to work through the strike, my supervisor and case co-ordinators were telling them that I nor anyone would be working during the strike. I will pause here, Mr. Chairman. This is- * (1610 ) Point of Order Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if you might-the distractions from the members-perhaps you might admonish the newly arrived members to committee and advise them about the fact that we are dealing with committee business and perhaps conversations between themselves and the minister ought to take place outside of the Chamber. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: When it is appropriate. Thank you to the member for Kildonan. When it is appropriate I will advise all members of that. The honourable minister, to finish his remarks. * * * Mr. McCrae: The honourable member for Kildonan obviously thinks he can make everyone conform to his view of the world. Well, it is going to take a very long time for that to happen, I can tell you. The letter from Kelli Paige continues. When I called back my contact through Jim McCrae's office, they knew nothing of this tactic and what my supervisor was doing.

I was told by my supervisor to sit at home and she would get back to me the next day. I am still waiting. There is no need for a lot of our clients to be in the confusion that they are in today, nor to be without their regular caregiver. We are sitting here ready to work. You canno t blame Jim McCrae for this. This is the result of low tactics of supervisors to help the union.

862 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17 , 1996 Mr. Deputy Chairman, time obviously will not allow me to complete reading Kelli Paige 's letter, but I can guarantee honourable members this committee is going to hear it all. Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if the minister can comment about a letter that I am going to read into the record. Since the minister seems to be fond of reading letters . I wonder if he might comment on a letter . Dear Mr. McCrae, dated March 29, 1996, so you said on a questionnaire that you had not received any complaints about Central Health Services when they are backing up home care.

Perhap s we are all too polite to complain. Here is mine. On Thmsday, the 14th of March, I came out ofhospital following a stroke . I have a husband with MS. I am not supposed to transf er him or lift him for a while. On Sunday, the 17th ofMarch, three days after I came out of hospital, Central Health Services-and I will just pause here for the edification of members who do not know Central Health Services are a private company that the ministers awarded a contract to in the sum of about $800,000 to do a backup. Central Health to continue- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please..

To all members on both sides, I would ask that you give each speaker the opportunity to pose their que stions, comments and answers in a relatively quiet mann er. Thank you. Mr. Chomiak: On Sunday, March 17 , three days after I came out of the hospital, Central Health Services were supposed to send us a home care attendant from 7:30 a.m to 4 p.m The person they sent did not know how to transfer someone. She did not know how to attend to my husband's personal needs . She was unable to get him out of bed. She said she was a maid, she usually cleaned houses.

The lady was very upset because she was unable to help my husband. I was very upset because she could not help my husband. My husband was very upset, and stress causes my husband's condition to deteriora te. I will just pause here and indicate that this is an individual with MS. She should never have been sent to us. It was a very stressful day for all of us. I am complaining to you perso nally so that you will know what is happen ing. I would like to add that I have used Central Health Services and We Care on a number of previous occasions, not through home care and privately .

On a number of occasions, they have been unable to send anyone at all out to us. On other occasions, the people they sent were not satisfactory, so how is this going to improve home care services? Perhap s I will repeat that. I would like to add that I have used Central Health Services and We Care on a number of previous occasions, not through Home Care but privately. On a number of occasions they have been unable to send anyone at all out to us. On other occasions the people they sent were not satisfactory, so how is that going to improve home care services?

Furthermore, I am sure that Central Home Services will make a claim to Home Care to be reimbursed for a home care attendant, not for a maid. This is the way you want to save money. I might add that is underlined, that is in exclamation marks. I am going to do another letter, read another letter to the minister dated Janwuy 4. This letter is a follow-up to our telephone conversation . It is to We Care of January 2, 19 96. I started with We Care providing my nursing care Friday through Sunday and holidays Monday through the summ er. A registered nurse has provided care.

However, I would have to phone the We Care office on Thursday to see who is going to be doing my care every week. Sometimes they are able to tell me the whole weekend and at other times they did not know who is to do my care, and I would have to phone back. I asked them to phone me, but they never remembered. Home Care had a shortage of nurses and asked me if I was satisfied with the service that We Care was providing. I said, yes. Home Care decided to ask We Care to do all my calls. This was the beginning of the end for me.

I had to call on Monday to see who was coming, doing my care during the week and on Friday to see who was doing the weekend . I asked for a two-week

schedule from Dana. It was delayed and delayed. I was told that Dana would have to ask her boss if that could be done . Finally I called my case co-ordinator from Home Care . They made up a

schedule including a nurse that I refused to have because she did not complete my care and was sloppy in the work she did. It also included a nurse five mornings a week. I said that I would take an emergency as when she came I always had the fee ling that I was interf ering in her social life. As well, the

schedule was written so small, it was barely readab le. I protested and Dana sent a new

schedule which was readable and the two nurses were replaced . That was not the end

April l7 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 863 I had a nurse that was hurt in a car accident. I just want to add, Mr. Chairperson, at this poin t-now, this is again fo r the private firms that the minister is so fo nd of and will indicate will provide such excellent service-We Care still sent her to do work even though it was very visible by the way she moved that she was hurting. I would ask fo r things to be missed in my care, and I was afraid that she would be hurt further or I would be hurt. I have had nurses come here that have been so sick that they were as white as the sheet of my bed.

We Care seems to have a policy that if a nurse is sick, she should go to the morning call and be replaced later. They do not seem to care that the client is compromised to begin with. I have had calls missed because the office told me that a certain nurse was coming at a particular time. When I asked the nurse on an earlier visit if she was doing that call, she replied she had not been asked or had told them she was not able to do the call. When I told the office this, they insist the nurse is coming and no one showed up for the call. I am left waiting fo r them to find someon e. And again I add, Mr.

Chairperson, this is We Care Health Services that the minister intends to fo ist upon all of us in the city of Winni peg. I will continue the letter. I am extremely allergic to perfinne and highly scented products. Twice I have gone into anaphylactic shock. I was sent a nurse that reeked of perfume. I had an asthma attack and sent her away. When I phoned We Care , I was told by the supervisor on the night that she did not know I was allergic and that they had no one to do my care-that they had no one to do my care.

I did phone Sherry Hoppe and told her that if anyone ever came to my house again wearing scented products, I would sue her. I understand everyone at We Care has now been made aware of my allergy. It is a step fo rward, Mr. Chairperson. I had the same nurse doing my fo ur calls which began at 8:30 a.m. and ended 11 :15 p.m. fo r 12 days straight.

Under the circumstances she did a good job; however, parts of my care get missed, such as them fo rgetting to remind me to take my pills, for getting to do my blood pressure and, last but not least, leaving clothing and fo otwear on the floor where I would fa ll over it if I get up at night I told the We Care office that it does not work having one person doing all the calls. The office turned around and told the nurse that I could not stand having the same nurse more than twice a day. The Christmas holidays were a nightmare.

Realizing that some of the regular nurses would be replaced, I called to see who would be doing the holidays. Again they gave me the name s, but someone else showed up. I had a nurse that was visibly tired to do my morning care which worked out okay. However, We Care was on the phone during my care demanding she fill in all the calls fo r the other worker who was sick. She had worked all fo ur calls the day bef ore, worked all night at a nursing home and did my morning call.

It appears that the office does not care about the saf ety of the nurse or the client. * (1 620) I called to ask who was coming fo r the weekend, on New Year's Day. The person who answered the phone was so enraged that I was asking, she turned to another office staff and said, it is Barb and she is being a real-and I will not use the word because it is unparliame ntary. I was being very polite and had a witness to that fact I did tell her that, if she was going to ref er to her clients by this name, please make sure the phone is hung up. The names she gave me fo r the holiday were not correct.

I got a call at 10 p.m. on December 31 saying that the nurse I refused to have any more coming to do my morning and noon calls on the 1st ofJanuary. I repeated the incidents to Sherry Hoppe when she returned from vacation . She did not even apologize on behalf of the corporation . This tells me that We Care is only intere sted in grabbing the money from Home Care fo r our service. I just hate to think of how We Care treats people who are not as articulate or have the knowledge to complain.

This is my private residence, and I have a right to know in a timely mann er who is coming here; as well, I should be treated with the utmost respect by the office staff. I have asked Home Care to remove We Care from my home as soon as possible. Until such time, I do not expect any ramifications from the office staff fo r writing this letter. I would just like to repeat that, Mr. Chairperson: Until such time, I do not expect any ramifications from the office staff for writing this letter. I will miss the nurses

864 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l7 , 1996 who have always done their best to provide the best care they could. I also like to ask the minister if he would comment on a letter dated April ll , 1996, and this letter is directed to the Honourable Health Minister Jim McCrae, an open letter . Dear Sir: My wife and I are 83 and 85 years old, respectively, and we both have serious- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourab le Minister of Education on a point of- Mrs.

Mcintosh: Yes, for clarification, I do not believe the member indicated the name of the letter writer, either the one before or the one now, and I do not think he is reading anonymous letters into the record. I mean, we are not reading anonymous letters into the record; I do not think he is either. But he is not giving a name that will give credib ility to the letter, I mean, how do we know he just did not make up himselfifhe does not give a name to go with it So could he please clarify whom the letters are from and that it was just not made up by somebody else? Mr.

Deputy Chairper son: I guess I could say that it is up to the member to clarify that if he wishes, or if the members of the committee wish to have him table, they can ask him to table it. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, if the Education minister had not been so engrossed in conversation with the minister, perhap s when I was reading the second letter, she would have heard me refer to the author. I did, and she could check Hansard, even though she is not paying attention. With respect to the first letter, the first letter was from Margaret Gaunt, G-A-U-N-T, and the third letter is now to continue.

My wife and I are 83 and 85 years old, respectively, and we both have serious, incapacitating medical conditions; that is, we are inva lids. The nearest hospital in Winnipeg is about 40 kilometres away. Thank heavens we have had access to home care services for the last six months. Those caring, dedicated people have provided an excellent service, and, by the way, we firmly believe they deserve every penny they earn on this job. We simply cannot comprehend why a caring Health minister will try to fix something that does not need fixing.

We have been married 65 years, and, now, in these very difficult and vulnerable circum stances, we face being separated. If Emily's home care is discontinued, she will have to go to a hospital. I cannot drive , so I could not visit her, and I will be left to fend for myself We are near panic. I am sure there are many others who have the same growing anxiety, and for what? Why this mania for privatimion, whether it is good or bad or even inhuman e? I sometimes think that it all has to do with the fanatical desire to destroy unions. Why should this be so? Are unions not a fundamental part of living in a democracy?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairperson, I have received certainly one of those letters . I recollect reading, I remember being on a radio program making the comment referr ed to in the first letter the honourab le member read and thinking immediately after I said, well, I will get some letters now having said that, but I had not up until that point. I can tell the honourab le member that the very things complained of in these letters are possible right now because the NDP and their union friends will not agree to an essential services agr eement that allows for service to be delivered to these people.

The very problems the honourable member complains about today he encourages to continue by supporting his union boss friends in their insistence to pull off the job people who provide vital lifesaving services to vulnerable Manitobans. So I guess the honourable member might want to reflect on that a little bit. I think it is pretty hard, the organic fusion that I referred to makes it very hard for honourable members in the New Democratic Party to have minds of their own. This is a problem when it comes to the representation of all Manitobans.

When your first duty is to union boss friends I guess it is hard to carry out your duty to all the people who actually elected you. But I say to the honourable member that if we are going to produce letters, I guess I will produce all my letters . I will not identify the authors though, because I do not have their permission, but people who have written to me in my two and a half years in the Department of Health complaining about the Home Care program.

The honourab le member wants to defend something today while there is a strike on and his union boss friends tell him to, but not for the last two and a half years. It is okay to rail daily about the

April 17 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 865 problems and concerns that he has about the home care system, but all of a sudden they have all evaporated. The honowable member said a little while ago, he used the word "shallow." Well, the honourable member's approach and double standa rd here is so transparent that it is unfortunate that all Manitobans do not know about it, because all Manito bans do not.

They have mana ged to, the New Democrats have managed to fool Manitobans for a long time and that is, of course, a problem that I think I need to deal with, and that is why it was asked earlier today about a public information program that we have begun in Manitoba. Of course, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) wants us to put an end to that sort of thing because, oh, we cannot have informed Manitobans b ecause they are going to hear some message other than ours, which is the NDP union boss message. We cann ot have that.

My goodn ess, that would be a terrible thing, for someone to know about another point of view. The honourable member talks about a shallow sort of approach to things. He wrote the book on it, Mr. Chairman, but now that he has brought forward letters from people complaining about a couple of private care deliverers, I guess I will have to review my files and pull out all the letters I have received since September 10, 1993, and maybe the ones received by my predecessor before that as well and I will begin reading them into the record at the next sitting of this committee.

In the meantime I will continue reading the letter that I received from Kelli Paige. I did not receive it directly, but it is a letter written to three of the news media here in the city of Winnipeg, and I have a

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-19
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 19.pdf
Language	en
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