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December 18, 1996

36th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L141 - Wed 18 Dec 1996 / Mer 18 Déc 1996

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

EDUCATION FINANCING

GOVERNMENT CONSULTANTS

ONTARIO APPLES

VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS

SPRUCE FALLS INC

VOICE OF PAKISTAN

ACUTE CARE

OSTEOPETROSIS TREATMENT

KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS LADIES' AUXILIARY

RONALD GLEN HODGSON

ORAL QUESTIONS

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

SERVICES FOR ABUSED WOMEN

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

SERVICES FOR ABUSED WOMEN

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

DAY CARE

ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PROGRAM

SPEECH-LANGUAGE PATHOLOGY

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

PETITIONS

ROMAN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

CHARLOTTE ELEANOR ENGLEHART HOSPITAL

FATHERS

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

SCHOOL PRAYERS

EDUCATION FINANCING

WORKERS' COMPENSATION

VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS

NORTH YORK BRANSON HOSPITAL

EDUCATION REFORM

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

FIRE SAFETY

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

ORDERS OF THE DAY

The House met at 1333.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): Ontario's teachers and students deserve a pat on the back, not a kick in the pants, which is what the Minister of Education continually does when he gets up to speak about education in Ontario. During Monday's question period, in response to a question from myself and one from the member for Durham East, the minister stated: "Surely we are number one in spending. Unfortunately, we're not number one in student achievement." These mistruths continue to be spread to justify this government's massive cuts in educational spending.

The facts speak louder than the myth-making of the Minister of Education. According to Stats Canada, for the year 1995-96 Ontario stood sixth in educational spending per pupil, not first, as the minister attempts to imply. We are behind BC, Quebec, Manitoba and the two territories. In reality, Ontario spends 2.4%, or $160, above the Canadian average. Given Ontario's cost of living, high-density society, highly diverse and great special educational needs, adult re-entry needs and inflow of immigrant families, Ontario's costs are understandable and justified. Even the former deputy minister has admitted that these comparisons are not in order.

What about the educational standards? According to the Premier's own views, Ontario has a top-grade educational system. How about the prestigious Carl Bertelsmann Foundation, which named the Durham board -- yes, the Durham board, for the member for Durham East -- as the best in the world in meeting the needs of its students in innovative ways?

Ontario's educational system is not broken, as the Minister of Education asserts --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you.

Mr Patten: You're welcome.

GOVERNMENT CONSULTANTS

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): In the last couple of days we've seen two separate but, interestingly enough and sadly enough, I think related examples of what this Harris government is all about in terms of governing by consultants and governing with a complete disrespect for the services needed for people.

We saw earlier in the week a report released by one consulting company, KPMG, which tried to draw an accounting textbook approach to governing in the Metropolitan Toronto area in saying, "You could find all these great savings" -- most of which, by the way, have nothing to do with consolidation of municipalities -- "but you can also do it by laying off 4,500 people and cutting services," including services like fire services and various other services.

Then, just yesterday, we saw another example from another consulting company, this time dealing with services provided to women and children who are victims of abuse. Here again, the same approach is being applied, which is to say that you can simply, in a bottom-line approach, cut these services, have women who are victims of abuse go back to their homes or go wherever they may be able to go, without any regard to the fact that we are talking here about people who are victims of abuse, people who require more protection, not less protection.

ONTARIO APPLES

Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings): As we took our places today we noticed an apple on the tables in front of us. No, the apples did not come from the sky and hit us on the head, leading to great insights, as happened to Sir Isaac Newton. Nor did we have to place them on our heads and risk being hit by an arrow, as happened to William Tell. Nor did we have to be coy about our apples, as pictures of Eve in the Garden of Eden would have us believe. These Empire apples are compliments of the Ontario apple growers through the Ontario Apple Marketing Commission.

Each member's office has received a gift box containing Empire, Red Delicious, Crispin, Matsu, and Ontario's very own McIntosh.

We have been generously given the same fresh, top-quality apples enjoyed by people throughout Ontario and indeed around the world. The apple crop in Ontario is almost two thirds of our fresh fruit crop, and this year's harvest, while down 20% from last year, is still approximately 12 million bushels. These apples have been presented to us to bring to the attention of the House the fact that the group of Ontario apple packers is establishing a distribution network that will compete with those who import apples into the province. This will give Ontario the competitive edge it needs to compete in the world market.

VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS

Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): My statement should be on tomatoes, but today it's on VLTs. On Monday of this week, my colleague from St Catharines advised the House that the National Council on Welfare released a report on gambling that confirms yet again that VLTs are highly addictive, that they are indeed the crack cocaine of gambling, and it is governments who, in their addiction to revenue, are impoverishing the most vulnerable in our society.

Throughout the public hearings on Bill 75, witness after witness, submission after submission denounced the government's plan to forge ahead with implementing VLTs in every bar and restaurant, on every corner, in every community in Ontario. The list of municipalities that have passed resolutions prohibiting these machines in their communities grows weekly.

I and many of my colleagues and even some from the government back benches have spoken against these insidious machines and their highly addictive nature because we understand that VLTs prey upon the most vulnerable in society, because they will increase the propensity for criminal activity and because they can destroy families and disrupt communities.

The recommendations of the National Council on Welfare emphasized the seriousness of addiction to VLTs. I say to this government to follow the recommendations of the National Council on Welfare and completely ban VLTs outside highly regulated areas such as casinos and racetracks.

SPRUCE FALLS INC

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): Today I want to share with the members of the Legislature one of the greatest success stories in northern Ontario, in Kapuskasing.

On December 3, Spruce Falls Inc marked an important milestone: its five years of prosperity. In 1991, with the help of the NDP government, company employees, Kapuskasing and area residents, and Tembec Inc assumed ownership of Spruce Falls Power and Paper Company, saving the whole community from a dark future.

This example clearly demonstrates that when a government chooses to invest in people and communities and to build partnerships with all the parties to find practical solutions, great things can be accomplished. Today there are more than 1,000 workers on the payroll and there are plans for another $400 million to be invested in a new paper machine.

It hasn't been easy, but thanks to the commitment and dedication of all the employees, Spruce Falls Inc went from being a high-cost producer of newsprint to one of the most cost-efficient newsprint mills in North America. Spruce Falls Inc reported net earnings of $83.1 million this year.

On behalf of my NDP colleagues, I'd like to congratulate the people of Cochrane North and the employees of Spruce Falls Inc on their accomplishments and wish the company many more successful years.

This is a good opportunity to wish all the members of the Legislature and the people of Kapuskasing and Cochrane North a very merry Christmas and a happy new year.

I want to share an article: "Top Performers: Kap Mill Celebrates Fifth Year," and on the other side, "The Making of a New Company." It's good news for Cochrane North.

VOICE OF PAKISTAN

Mr Jim Brown (Scarborough West): Let me begin my statement today with an Islamic blessing for all members of the House: In the name of Allah, the merciful, the compassionate.

On December 29, we will proudly mark an important milestone celebration in the life of the Pakistani Canadian community: the silver jubilee of the Voice of Pakistan program on CHIN Radio. Ontarians of Pakistani background have enriched Canada with their dynamic traditions. What I personally most admire about them is their great devotion to their Islamic faith, the religion of Allah and his prophet Muhammad -- peace be upon him -- and their efforts among their young people to instil pride in their identity.

The Voice of Pakistan continues to play an important role in the handing down of these traditions. It helps first-generation Canadians of Pakistani origin adapt to their new country while keeping solid ties with the homeland they left behind. It is a medium of culturally relevant information for the community and is also a focus of its unity and identity.

Joining me in the House today are prominent members of the Pakistani Canadian community: Ayub Kureshy, the director of Voice of Pakistan, Gul Nawaz, Zubair Choudry and Ilyas Kureshy. On behalf of the government of Ontario and as the member for Scarborough West, I am proud to extend my warmest congratulations to you and through you to the entire Pakistani community of Ontario.

ACUTE CARE

Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): Earlier this week the Minister of Health informed the board of directors of the Thunder Bay Regional Hospital that no further consideration will be given to the development of a new hospital in Thunder Bay. What does that mean? It means that despite the board's incredible tenacity and commitment, this government is determined to move forward with its vision for acute care in our city. They will move forward despite lingering, legitimate questions about the actual costs of a redevelopment of the Port Arthur General site, let alone the true costs for a new acute care site in the city.

If this is the final decision by the minister, forcing us to move forward with their imposed plan, it is absolutely vital that the minister make solid commitments in two crucial areas:

(1) If the costs for redevelopment exceed the ministry's present estimate of $64.3 million, the ministry must be obliged to cover any extra costs.

(2) If the minister wants the people of Thunder Bay to support the decision, they should hire an independent consultant to verify those costs so that 10 years down the road we're not looking at final costs that would have matched the costs of a new site.

The people of Thunder Bay have fought long and hard for what they believe is needed for health care in our community. I want to thank everyone who has rallied around this issue to send a message to the minister that we will not accept anything less than the highest health care standards for our community. There are many issues related to the integration of health care that must still be fought for. We can only hope that the minister recognizes the turmoil and anxiety this issue has generated and will come forward with a commitment to do what I've asked for today.

OSTEOPETROSIS TREATMENT

Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): I'm going to tell you about Damon Albanese. He's going to turn five years old on Christmas Day, but he's not going to have his birthday in Welland, where he's from and where his family lives, because he is right now at Wyler Children's Hospital, University of Chicago. This young guy, who's as bright, active, cheerful and tenacious a little guy as you're ever going to meet, suffers from osteopetrosis, with a life expectancy, when he was born, of two years.

Two bone marrow transplants, you see, because osteopetrosis, a bone disorder, causes loss of vision, hearing loss, the phenomenon of broken bones. In the case of broken bones they don't repair; they've got to be amputated.

This government gave up on Damon Albanese, notwithstanding our pleas from Welland for this government and its Minister of Health to accommodate Damon for bone marrow transplant here in Ontario through the OHIP system. This government betrayed him, but the people of Welland and Niagara region and the province, and indeed across the country, throughout the United States and Europe, didn't. They didn't turn their backs on this little boy the way this government did. They raised $172,000 so that young Damon has a chance to live something akin to a normal life.

It's shameful that Damon and his family have to go to the University of Chicago for that treatment and have to pay for it privately out of private sector funds. It's shameful that this government talks a big game about kids but turns its back on them.

KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS LADIES' AUXILIARY

Mr Tim Hudak (Niagara South): I rise in the House today to recognize the kind and charitable actions of the Fort Erie Knights of Columbus Ladies' Auxiliary Council 3320. Elaine Greggain, Wilma Morlog, Emily Yando, Laura Hodges and Diane Schandi have dedicated an enormous amount of time to knitting wool blankets and scarves. They brought these gifts to my constituency office last week, requesting that I bring them to Toronto for the homeless. They felt it important to extend their goodwill beyond our community, even though they will never know the beneficiaries of their kind actions.

Yesterday I delivered the blankets and scarves to the Scott Mission on Spadina Avenue. With the arrival of winter, I know their gifts will be put to very good use. I applaud the Knights of Columbus Ladies' Auxiliary for their altruistic and benevolent deed. I believe these kind women truly represent community spirit and volunteerism.

I know these women, like many other constituents in my riding, are very concerned about potential impact of the Niagara District Health Council's hospital restructuring committee report on Fort Erie and Port Colborne. Let me assure them that I will be standing with the people of Fort Erie and with the people of Port Colborne for better health care. I believe that through the consultation process of the Niagara DHC, we can together come up with a better health care solution for the people of Niagara South.

RONALD GLEN HODGSON

Hon Chris Hodgson (Minister of Natural Resources, Northern Development and Mines): I believe we have unanimous consent to say a few words about my uncle, who passed away last Thursday.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.

Hon Mr Hodgson: It's with great sadness that I rise today to inform the House of the passing of R. Glen Hodgson. The "R" stood for Ronald, but he always went by the name Glen. He passed away in his 71st year last Thursday evening. He left behind his wife, Shirley, four children, his grandchildren, brothers and sisters and a number of nieces and nephews.

With the pleasure of the House, I'd just like to say a few words about my uncle. He was a member who served Victoria-Haliburton from 1963 to 1975. Prior to entering public life, he was a partner and owner of a logging operation in Haliburton county. He was an honorary member for 28 years in the Ontario Forest Products Accident Prevention Association. He served his community in a number of capacities, including on Dysart council. He was the chairman of the telephone commission. In the Legislature he was the caucus chair for three years.

He was chairman of numerous standing committees in the Ontario Legislature, in particular for two years as Chairman of the standing committee on implementation of new rules and structures -- many of those are still in place today -- and the Chairman of the select committee on rules and procedures.

We have a fairly close family and my early recollection of Uncle Glen was that he shared the same family affliction that my father and aunts and uncles all share, and that is this uncontrollable compulsion to always give advice, even when it's not asked for, but it was always advice given not out of his own self-interest but because he cared about what his nieces and nephews were up to.

I got to know Uncle Glen better in the 1980s, when he was on Dysart council but away from the Legislature. It was at hunting camp. His favourite season of the year was hunting season. In the early 1980s I decided to try it, and I've gone back every year since. One of the things that you enjoy is the camaraderie of the hunt, but after the hunt, after the arguments about where the dogs ran and how many deer and who missed and who shot have died down, in the evenings you sit around and occasionally play cards. It's dealer's choice, as long as you play seven card stud for quarters.

Throughout the evening my uncle and some older members of the community would sit around and talk about stories, about the history of the community, about people in the community, occasionally about politics and quite often about how the Leafs were going to make a revival that year.

At the end of the evening, when the card game was over and my uncle had driven home, you'd be left with this understanding of how deeply he cared about the people in our community and about the traditions of our community and about the lifestyle of people in rural Ontario. This understanding I have grown to appreciate more and more since those days. We subsequently had numerous afternoons of talking at the cottage around history and politics, and spending the odd day in a car campaigning in the last two elections I've been involved in. I grew to appreciate his service to the community and what it meant to be a member of the provincial Legislature from 1963 to 1975.

Members who were here in those years would appreciate that there was no constituency staff, there was no one to help you out with inquiries from your constituents and yet the province had become a modern province. In 1963-64 the first $1-billion budget was passed and by 1975 it was approaching $10 billion. Tremendous change in those years: Huge bureaucracies grew up, ministries doubled in size and quadrupled in staff, and yet a member from rural Ontario did rather well. We got our fair share. People were given a fair hearing.

He had a deep appreciation for the British tradition and the process of the Legislature. Through that people were treated fairly. That was the role of government: to help people. Whether he was serving as a father or as an uncle or as a member of the Legislature or as a member of the Dysart council or even, in retirement, as the mayor of Haliburton Lake, he served with integrity. He was his own man. He thought about a situation in a thoughtful and unselfish manner. He will be missed.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): On behalf of the Liberal caucus, I am pleased to pay tribute to Glen Hodgson, who served his constituents so well as a member of this assembly, and of course the people of Victoria-Haliburton in many other ways as he strived to be a person who was interested in, concerned about and involved in public service.

I cannot, just as the representative of the New Democratic Party cannot, speak in the same way about Mr Hodgson as does the Minister of Natural Resources, who in a very personal way knew him as part of the extended family. I'm very pleased to hear the words that he brought forward today because he shared with members of the assembly, many of whom are new, some insights into an individual whom we know only as a person from a biography or as a person we perhaps read about in the days when he was a member.

His involvement with the government caucus was rather interesting in that he held some titles that are difficult to hold. Chairman of the government caucus for three years is indeed a challenge. Anybody who has had that position recognizes that you have to balance a lot of basketballs at the same time or juggle an awful lot of instruments in your hand while trying to please everyone within a caucus. It takes a special kind of person to do that, a person with a special personality, as Glen had.

I'm sure that although cursed on a day or two by those who didn't get their way on that day, he was nevertheless loved by all members of the caucus and appreciated for that service. As well, he was deputy whip for three years under Premier John Robarts, again not always an easy position. Wherever you have to make a call, wherever you have to decide one person speaks instead of another person or where you have to round up the government troops, if I can call them that, who want to be back in the constituency for a very important event but must be in this House for a vote, that's a challenging job as well.

He took it on willingly and did a good job in that regard, because of course the government did not fall on any of those occasions, so he must have been doing his job.

He was on some rather interesting committees. Members will know that today we don't have as many select committees as we once had. He was a member of the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism in 1971 and 1972, which is an indication of the kind of issues that we had to deal with as a province in those days. He was Chairman of the standing committee on the implementation of new rules and structure in the Ontario Legislature and Chairman of the select committee on rules and procedures.

The government House leader must wish that he had consulted with him previous to his passing, because he may have had some insights. He might have been surprised at the rules under which we live today in that probably the rules in those days were much more accommodating of the opposition than they are today.

But it was an important job nevertheless, important because he was in a majority government, because he had to take into account the views of the government but also the views of all members of the Legislature. If anyone had an opportunity to read his résumé and to learn a bit about him, they would see that the name of the game for Glen Hodgson was public service in any capacity.

We've heard, most appropriately, of the personal relationship that the present member for Victoria-Haliburton had with his uncle. I suspect that most people in his community, perhaps even all members in the community, would share that point of view of Glen Hodgson as a true public servant, as a good constituency person, remembering that probably Shirley was the "secretary," as they might have said in those days. Because there were not constituency offices, Shirley and members of the immediate family would be answering the phone and helping out in many ways, probably even to a deeper extent than is the case today.

To Shirley and all members of the family and to the present member for Victoria-Haliburton, those of us in the Liberal caucus convey our sincere sympathy but also our shared feeling of pride in a person who has served our province and his constituency well.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): On behalf of the New Democratic Party caucus and particularly the dean of the House, the member for Nickel Belt, who couldn't be here to speak about Glen Hodgson, I want to express our condolences to his widow and children and grandchildren, and particularly to the Minister of Natural Resources.

We all listened with care to the obviously heartfelt comments of the member for Victoria-Haliburton, and I must say I was touched by them. I also recognize that while this is a loss to the family, it's a loss to the community. This was an individual who served his constituents well in this House and, after leaving this place, continued to serve and be committed to his community. We should be celebrating that fact, and I know the current member is doing that today, as well as feeling a sense of loss.

I would say, after hearing the comments by the Minister of Natural Resources about his uncle, that perhaps all of us in this assembly should really think very carefully about some of the ways we express ourselves and express views about politics and politicians today. At a time when the currency of politics and politicians is devalued, perhaps we should think of the contributions of people like Glen Hodgson before we play to that kind of popular view out there and think of all the people who have served us so well over the years in Ontario and continue to serve us well, as Mr Hodgson did.

With that, I would just simply say on behalf of my colleagues and, as I said, particularly the member for Nickel Belt, who is the only member of the House currently serving to have served with Mr Hodgson, that we express our sincere sympathies to Mrs Hodgson, her children and grandchildren and the whole family, including the current Minister of Natural Resources.

The Speaker: I will endeavour to ensure that the comments get back to the family, although I am certain they will in another fashion.

ORAL QUESTIONS

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Minister, it seems that every December some strange spirit takes over your government; but it isn't the spirit of Christmas, it's the spirit of dictatorship. Last year it was Bill 26, this year it's megacity madness.

Yesterday you made some astonishing statements in this House. You said that the 2.3 million people who live in Metro can have all the referendums they want, but you and the Premier are not going to listen, no matter what they say. You're going to ram the megacity down their throats anyway. Minister, this megacity you are imposing by decree was not in the Common Sense Revolution. Where did you get the right to suspend democracy in Metro and ram this down the throats of the citizens of Metro?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): In response to the member for Oakwood, it is in the Common Sense Revolution, if the members opposite would like to turn to page 17. I am sure that the position of the government in eliminating duplication and waste, reducing the number of levels of government, levels of municipal government -- it's quite clear to me that it says that each area in the province should be looked upon on its own merits.

With respect to the referendum, as I mentioned yesterday, a referendum is not appropriate when there are a multitude of questions that would have to be asked to satisfy the needs of all the people of the Metro area.

Mr Colle: Minister, you may call this monster you're creating a megacity, but let me tell you what the people of Metro Toronto are calling it. They're calling it a mega-mistake. They're calling it megalomania. They're calling you the tinpot dictator of Metro.

Why are you showing such contempt for the people of Metro? Why, in the 905 area and the rest of the province, are you giving them a say and setting up facilitators, yet here in Metro you're treating us like second-class citizens and dictating and saying we can't have a say? Why the different treatment for Metro?

Hon Mr Leach: That question comes from Mr Amalgamation, by the way, the person who was in favour of amalgamation when he was on Metro council, when he was running for council. It's amazing the way positions change from day to day.

However, this is a question that has been debated within the Metro area since 1966. There was a referendum in 1969, which was successful. It came up again in 1978. It has been debated by, I believe, just about every council since that time. The only thing that was lacking in making this move was the political will to do so. This government is prepared to make those difficult decisions. We have and we will.

Mr Colle: This is the same minister who was a co-chair of the Trimmer commission that said, "Keep local government." This is the same minister who set up the Burnham-Shea report that said, "Keep local government." This is the same minister who said he was against MVA, was going to oppose it. So don't tell me about double standards, Minister.

Let's call this what it is. If this were taking place in a foreign country and the government-appointed trustees were to take over control of the largest city, if it were imposed on the people without their will, we would all denounce it as an imposition of martial law. We would say, "This is a coup d'état." We would say, "This is a tinpot dictatorship."

Minister, you have even gone as far as to put yourself and your trustees above the law. In your own legislation you say, "The decisions of the board of trustees are final and shall not be reviewed or questioned by the courts." You can't even question. Who gave you the authority to be above the law? Where is it in the blue book that you're above the law?

Hon Mr Leach: The member brings up the question of the trustees and what powers they should have and whether we should have them. Why should we have a board of trustees? Let me count the ways: The city of Toronto board of management this morning passed a motion to transfer all of its reserves to a non-profit corporation. I think perhaps that might be a good reason why we need somebody to look after the affairs of the citizens of this area. We're looking after the taxpayers' dollars. We want to make sure the taxpayer is protected even if you don't.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. It has to do with the property taxpayer and the impact of the megacity proposal on property taxpayers. There's no question that property taxpayers fear that this is going to result in increased property taxes. We have the embarrassing sight, frankly, of your commissioning a three-week study on something this fundamental. Believe me, if you were in the private sector, you'd be fired for trying to run a business like this.

You're asking us to make an informed decision on Metro without all the facts. We know that in a few weeks you plan to table property tax legislation that will result in, we understand, $500 million of Metro's property tax being taken out of Metro and spent elsewhere in the province. If you want us to make an informed decision and the people of Metro to make an informed decision, will you table this essential property tax legislation today so it can be part of our debate on Metro?

Hon Mr Leach: Again, I can only assume the members opposite do their research through three-month-old copies of the Toronto Star, because the stories on assessment review, what would happen with assessment review, the effects of assessment review, were all discussed openly and publicly months and months ago.

We will be bringing in legislation in the near future on property tax reform, and I'll make sure the members opposite are the first to get a copy.

Mr Phillips: I would just say to the public watching this, you can understand the problems we have with this minister. He didn't even understand the question. The question was, "Will you table that legislation?" I gather you're saying you won't now.

I'll go back to a few things you've said, Minister, because it all relates to residential property tax, and this is the question people want answered. You have said to this Legislature you were reducing property tax on apartments. You've said that. You've said you were going to reduce property tax on business. You have said that you were going to cut grants to municipalities by hundreds of millions of dollars, and your new legislation is going to take millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars, of property tax out of Metro.

The question is this: You have said all of those things. Will you present to the people of Metropolitan Toronto the impact on their property tax of all these various pieces of property tax manoeuvres you are planning so that we can make an informed, sensible decision on this megacity?

Hon Mr Leach: As in my previous answer when I advised the member that this issue has been discussed for many, many months, there is no tax grab; there is a tax shift. There will be a new, fair and equitable system of taxation brought in for all of the residents of the province of Ontario and particularly those in Metropolitan Toronto. There are a number of people in Metropolitan Toronto whose tax bills are too high at the present time, and we want to bring that back to fairness. There are a number of people in Metropolitan Toronto whose taxes are too low. This proposal that we're bringing in will bring fairness and equity, and we will table that in the very near future.

Mr Phillips: Surely if you want the people of Ontario, the people of Metro, to make an informed decision on your legislation, it demands that you provide that information. You have indicated that some people in Metro Toronto are paying too low taxes. We need to know that.

You are asking us to proceed with legislation that fundamentally changes the most successful urban area in North America. That's without question. You are asking us to proceed with legislation to change Metro without telling us how education is going to be handled. Some 55% of property tax in Metropolitan Toronto is education. You are asking us to proceed without tabling the legislation that you've already indicated is fundamental to property tax reform. Surely, Minister, even you would appreciate that you are asking the Legislature to proceed without the essential elements of the decision-making.

Will you provide the property taxpayers of Metro with a clear answer on the impact on their property tax of your megacity proposal?

Hon Mr Leach: To repeat, the issue of property tax reform in Metro is another issue that has been debated by all levels of government -- local government, Metro and the Legislature -- over the past five years. Everybody in Metropolitan Toronto is well aware of the shifts in taxes that are going to take place when a fair and equitable property tax reform is introduced. I doubt if there's one member opposite who isn't aware of the shifts in taxes that are going to take place, but those shifts in taxes are going to bring fairness and equity back into the system. A very difficult political decision to make: We had the will to make it.

SERVICES FOR ABUSED WOMEN

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is for the minister responsible for women's issues. I want to tell the minister that people across this province are shocked that your government would seriously consider a report which recommends pushing women out of crisis homes and women's shelters after less than 48 hours.

This is what somebody from the Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres said when she was contacted by your ministry: "I told her that transition houses and rape crisis centres were the great achievements of our generation toward ending violence against women. I reminded her that transition houses and rape crisis centres save women's lives and that the public has been supportive of them since their creation and the public would not wish for their destruction."

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Question.

Mr Hampton: Minister, how can you seriously be even considering this report? How can you even give it a minute of second thought? I'm calling for you today to say that you are not going to consider this report, that this recommendation of 48 hours is --

The Speaker: Thank you. Minister?

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, minister responsible for women's issues): First of all, I wouldn't agree with the

interpretation of the 48-hour recommendation, but even if the member opposite is right, he hasn't got cause for concern. It is not our intent to ask women to leave shelters until they can go to a safe environment and I want to make that very clear.

Mr Hampton: We made some headway in a day. We're going to go a bit further here.

Let me put this in context, what people find so shocking. We've done some of the numbers and we know that your government, through your tax scheme, is going to give bank chairs and bank presidents $200,000 in tax gifts. So put this in context: While you're giving bank presidents $200,000 in tax gifts, and bank CEOs and bank vice-presidents, how can you even give this report a minute of consideration? I want to hear categorically from you that under no circumstances are you going to force women out of shelters and out of crisis centres, categorically that you're rejecting that totally. I want to hear that from you now.

Hon Mrs Cunningham: In response to the member's question, there is no recommendation that women be forced out of shelters in the report I read. I should also say that right now the flexibility within shelters from area to area across the province will remain, because anyone who goes to a shelter and any shelter that is trying to take care of women who have been abused and protect their safety should have that kind of flexibility. I'm not going to interfere in how they apply that standard, but that's their job and they're doing it very well.

I should say at the same time that this report is all about what the former government had as a recommendation and they didn't act on it: the absolute need for a structure and a framework for action on the prevention of violence against women. They had almost 100 reports and they never acted on any of them, even to do with the wonderful agreements we have with our Attorney General for domestic assault courts.

Mr Hampton: Yes, our government was concerned about providing funding for crisis centres and for women's shelters, and our government was concerned about providing money for counselling and actually conducting a public information program that would say to people, "Say no to violence against women" -- all things you've cut. So let's get the record straight.

We phoned some crisis centres and women's shelters, and I say to you very clearly that none of them want this so-called flexibility you're advocating here. They want your government to stand behind shelters and crisis centres and they want you to categorically say you are not going to consider this report, to stand in your place now and say categorically that 48 hours is out and that some of the other damaging things in this report with respect to women and children are out and off. Will you give that commitment?

Hon Mrs Cunningham: There are many recommendations in this report. Some of them one would agree with, others one may not, but there are some very good recommendations in the report. These are very serious and important issues that the leader of the third party is raising. I value the opportunity to speak about them.

I say to the leader of the third party that once he has thoroughly read the report, he will agree with me that the officials in the nine ministries responsible for the delivery of this program -- and he as a former Attorney General for this province should know that improvements must still be made. Some of the recommendations are in this report; other recommendations are coming from the ministry on a day-to-day basis. The focus of this report and the focus of this government is to make a safer Ontario for women, and that's what we intend to do.

Mr Hampton: This report is all about cutting services for women, nothing more than that.

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My next question is for the Attorney General, with respect to the family support plan and the chaos you've created. You've closed down the regional offices, you laid off 290 experienced staff, and now families, women and children, are left scrambling to try to make up for the chaos you've created.

Maria Godin of Sudbury received her last support payment in October. She is now owed over $650. She's a single parent with a nine-year-old boy, works part-time as a cashier and needs her family support payments to make ends meet. Her mortgage payment is due on Friday, and she doesn't have the money to pay it. She confirmed that the support payor continues to pay money into the family support plan but there it disappears, none of it gets to her.

It's a week before Christmas. My question is this: Will you commit today to provide emergency funding for all those women and children who have not received their money from --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you. Minister?

Hon Charles Harnick (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): Certainly we are endeavouring to ensure that payments are made as fast as possible. We've increased the ability to make those payments faster than they have ever been made before.

To respond directly to the member, we are finding, as we track each and every one of these cases, that it's very difficult to say it's always the family support plan's problem. There are many variables. Sometimes there are variables that involve the income source, sometimes there are variables that involve the payor and sometimes we are not in receipt of the correct funds to be able to make that commitment. So what we are continuing to endeavour to do is ensure that we get payments made, that we get them made as fast as possible, and that we continue to improve a plan where three out of four people didn't get paid by the family support plan even though they had an order and were entitled.

Mr Hampton: The Attorney General continues to talk about how he's improving the family support plan. I want to read to the Attorney General his own statistics. These are your figures. Before you closed down the regional offices, the family support plan collected and issued $44.9 million in support payments for the month of May 1996. In September, after you had closed down the regional offices and laid off 290 staff, the family support plan collected only $37.2 million in family support, a drop of $7.7 million after you started to improve the plan.

In October, the plan only collected and issued $28.7 million in family support, a decrease of $16.2 million after you started to improve the plan. Your own numbers don't lie, Minister. Since you started cutting the plan, the amount of money that you're collecting and distributing is going down.

I say to you again, will you have the decency now to put in place emergency funding to correct the chaos that's been created by your cuts?

Hon Mr Harnick: I want to tell you that in the first week of December 1996, we processed $15.8 million in payments. A year earlier, in the first week of December 1995, we disbursed $11.8 million. A year earlier, we disbursed in that same week $11.8 million. So the amount of moneys being processed is increasing. We have been paying out more money than has ever been paid out before. As it now stands and as we look at the complaints coming in, most of these complaints are complaints of long standing.

Mr Hampton: The Attorney General continues this phoney story. We expected that would be your answer, so we checked. The fact is, Mr Attorney General, that much of the money that you are getting out now, in December, was owed in August, in September, in October. All you're doing is getting out money now that should have been gotten out three, four and five months ago. This is not catching up, this is not being up to speed; this is a continuation.

Let me just show you the historical record. In 1991-92, family support collected $166 million and distributed it. In 1992-93 it was increased to $221 million. In 1993-94 it went up to $297 million collected and distributed. In 1994-95 it went up to $367 million collected. You see, Minister, if you were improving the plan, you'd have to get above that $367-million figure, you'd have to get above it, not paying out things that you missed in August, September, October and November.

I say to you again that what you have done is you have --

The Speaker: Minister.

Hon Mr Harnick: When the member was the Attorney General, he could have provided a bill that provided real, good enforcement measures. He elected not to do that. As a result of that, this plan has been in arrears by about --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Minister

Hon Mr Harnick: It was the boast of the then Attorney General that he would make sure that 60% of all people were going to be in receipt of full payment of what was due to them. When we took over the government, 23.5% of all recipients were getting what was coming to them. Those five lost years were an abysmal record and we are attempting to re-create a plan that will provide better service and more money to women and children.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: In view of the answer given by the Attorney General, I'm wondering how three cheques addressed to no one, from the family support office, would show up at the member for Prescott and Russell's office.

The Speaker: It may be a good question, but it's not a point of order.

SERVICES FOR ABUSED WOMEN

Ms Annamarie Castrilli (Downsview): My question is also to the Attorney General. The Attorney General has repeatedly voiced in this House his commitment to fight spousal abuse and we on this side of the House want very much to take him at his word. The evidence, however, is quite the contrary. This government has slashed funding for violence against women. It has slashed funding for prevention programs, women's emergency shelters, support programs, legal aid and welfare benefits, to mention a few. Women have little choice but to return home to dangerous situations.

The report released yesterday compounds the problem. It has been panned by everybody who is involved with women who are the subject of violence. The London Sexual Assault Centre and the Genevra House in Sudbury are but two of the centres that have denounced the measures contained in this report. It isn't just a question of the 48-hour limit that is imposed on women in shelters. It has to do with leaving it up to neighbours to report abuse to the authorities and it has to do with not prosecuting offenders because it might lead to reoffence and this will be very expensive for the system.

I therefore would like to ask the Attorney General, as the chief law enforcement officer of this province, will he intervene to protect women from further abuse and assure them that the justice system will continue to prosecute offenders and that women will not --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you, member for Downsview.

Hon Charles Harnick (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): As this matter deals with the issue of the report, I will refer this to the minister responsible for women's issues.

Ms Castrilli: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I was asking the Attorney General about prosecutions. I was not asking about the report.

The Speaker: I appreciate the point you're making but the minister has every right to refer questions --

Interjections.

The Speaker: I've got to rule first. The minister has every right to refer a question wherever he or she chooses. It's just that simple.

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, minister responsible for women's issues): The violence against women initiatives, as set up by and worked with other, former governments, cross many ministries. I can answer in a very positive way to the concern of the member who asked the question, in that we're very proud of our track record of laying charges here in Ontario. We will continue to do that. That will be our first course. We have set up specialized courts, specialized prosecutors to work with the police.

The two courts, one in North York and one in Toronto, will now track the results of these specialized courts, these specialized prosecutors and the charges, which has not been done before, and perhaps we can move forward with even a better system to address the needs of women.

Ms Castrilli: I find this very interesting, and I think if the minister is now trying to disown her own report, that is certainly the image that is coming here.

I wonder if the minister might be so kind as to refer the question back to the Attorney General, because my question really has to do with prosecution and defending the rights of women, who are the vulnerable, who are the victims here. I'm not interested in the report. I'm interested in knowing what the Attorney General is prepared to do on the basis of the information we now have.

Are we going to have a situation where dangerous offenders, where people who abuse women are going to be let off scot-free from prosecution on the basis of this report? This is what I want to know, and I'd like assurance from the government that in fact women will not be penalized. They've already been victimized by the system once. Surely they're not going to be victimized by this government and surely they are not going to be victimized by the silence which I see across the way.

Hon Mrs Cunningham: If I could just make a very important clarification, this is not our report. This is a report that was given to the government by a consultant, and we will take into consideration the recommendations as a very small part of the great challenge we have across this province of finding better solutions to protecting women who have been violated. I want to make it extremely clear --

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): Where is your backbone, Dianne?

Interjection.

The Speaker: Members for Windsor-Riverside and Fort York.

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): Pardon me?

The Speaker: Oh, I'm sorry. Member for --

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean): She's not the member for Windsor-Riverside yet.

The Speaker: Well, you know who I'm talking to.

Hon Mrs Cunningham: The recommendations of this report do require very careful and serious analysis. The analysis by the Attorney General will be extremely important. I should say also that the officials in the line ministries, some nine of them, are spending time doing that right now. They're looking at the implications, and I want to make it clear, of the consultant's recommendations. We know that there are other ongoing evaluations of programs, and the bottom line for this government is to develop a framework for the prevention of violence against women.

The Speaker: New question, leader of the third party.

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): I have a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, but I want to say to the minister responsible for women's issues, you commissioned the report, you paid for it and you handpicked the consultants to write it.

Hon Mrs Cunningham: On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: There is a process where governments put out a call for proposals, and maybe this government didn't follow the --

The Speaker: It's not a point of privilege.

Interjections.

The Speaker: It's not a point of privilege. Minister of the Environment, member for Sudbury East, please come to order, and the member for Brant-Haldimand.

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): To the Minister of Municipal Affairs: Minister, you've said that you'll ignore the results of any referendum the mayors hold on your megacity, yet you're the government of referendums. You put out this discussion paper called Your Ontario, Your Choice, extolling the virtues of referendums. On page 5 you say that as a result of the Charlottetown accord referendum it was shown that people are wiser, that they deserve to be consulted on these kinds of issues.

How can you say that something as complex as a constitutional document should be submitted to a referendum when an issue about how Toronto wants to be governed shouldn't be submitted to a referendum? How do you make that distinction?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I guess I make that distinction in the same way that the leader of the third party makes distinctions when he says referendums aren't required for amalgamations if they happen to be in Hamilton-Wentworth. You got up there and said a referendum isn't appropriate for an amalgamation. The sounds of flip-flops come from both sides now. The member from Hamilton from the Liberal Party, the member from Hamilton from the New Democratic Party and the leader of the third party all say that a referendum is inappropriate for the amalgamation issue, and I agree with them.

Mr Hampton: So that the minister is clear, let me put it to you right now. Yes, I believe a referendum is in order in Hamilton, especially after the so-called consensus that you thought you had isn't there. So I think we should have a referendum in Hamilton too.

Minister, we know that you've consulted all your corporate friends at the board of trade. They've all had their say about how Toronto should be governed. What I'm asking you now is: Will you sit down with the mayors -- they were elected to help govern the city of Toronto -- and develop a referendum question so that all of the people of Metro Toronto can have their say in how they're going to be governed? You've given your corporate friends at the board of trade their say. Will you give the people their say? Will you give them a referendum?

Hon Mr Leach: I'm glad that the leader of the third party let the citizens of Ontario know that he'll flip-flop any time it suits his own political agenda.

With respect to meeting with the mayors, we met with the mayors. The Premier and I met with all of the mayors.

Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): What about the Trimmer report? Do you remember Joyce Trimmer?

Mr Hampton: I shudder to think that you once ran the TTC.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. Member for Oakwood, you're going to have to come to order. Leader of the third party, you're going to have to come to order as well. It's near impossible to hear the minister respond.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Member for Lake Nipigon, it's even better if you're not out of order when I'm standing. Thank you. Minister?

Hon Mr Leach: We met with the mayors. The Premier and I met with all of the mayors. We discussed the referendum question. We talked about it. We pointed out the problems with a referendum.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): And you didn't agree with them.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): Answer the question.

Mr Hampton: Will you give the people a say? What's wrong with democracy?

The Speaker: Third party, I'm warning you now. That's officially the warning, I suppose. That's it. I've got to get the minister to respond. It's not productive.

Hon Mr Leach: That's good advice. He might learn something if he listened. As I said, we discussed this with the mayors. We pointed out all of the problems with a referendum. We advised the mayors of the problems in holding a referendum when you have so many questions that could be put on the ballot that there is no way possible to get a logical answer on a referendum ballot on this issue. The mayors know that. The mayors are out posturing. I think they're taking some pretty irresponsible actions by reporting that they're going to spend millions of dollars of taxpayers' money on a referendum that will have no positive or useful results.

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

Mrs Helen Johns (Huron): My question is to the Attorney General. I understand that in London a family court judge has ruled that a family support plan recipient and her ex-husband should be allowed to opt out of the family support plan. Would you comment on this with specific reference to whether they should be able to opt out of the plan.

Hon Charles Harnick (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): Thank you, to the member for Huron, for the question. It's inappropriate for me to speak about any individual case, but I'm well aware that there are many responsible parents around Ontario who don't need the government to be looking over their shoulder in order to ensure that support payments are paid and received.

I couldn't agree more with the comment that the member made. That's why Bill 82, which was recently passed, permits people to opt out of the plan to avoid the government and to make their payments on their own. This would simplify things for responsible parents. It gets the government away from those who don't need the enforcement, and it frees up resources so that the Family Responsibility Office can do what it's intended to do, and that's track people down who aren't paying their family support.

Mrs Johns: Why did it take so long to bring this commonsense approach to family support between responsible parents?

Hon Mr Harnick: It's always been my position that responsible parents don't need the government to look over their shoulders to ensure that they're living up to their family support responsibilities.

The member should know that when the previous government brought in its plan, the member for Oakville South and I argued strongly for an opting-out provision. We even provided an amendment to the bill that the former government wouldn't listen to. It was common sense then and it's common sense now that we allow people who are responsible to opt out of the plan.

We're also doing other commonsense things --

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): The member for London Centre, I warn you. You must come to order. Minister?

Hon Mr Harnick: We're also in Bill 82 doing other things that are long overdue: suspending the driver's licence of those who don't pay, reporting people to credit bureaus, and also referring collection matters to private collectors so that we can in fact collect money for women and children.

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Joseph Cordiano (Lawrence): I direct my question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs again, give him the opportunity to answer some questions for a change. Yesterday we witnessed your coronation as emperor. You marched your forces of occupation into Metro Toronto and declared: "I'm in charge now, no questions asked. We're moving forward." What you did yesterday denied the people of Metro Toronto a basic democratic right: the right to have a say in how they are governed. You didn't consult. You didn't even give them fair warning.

At what point in the last election campaign did you suggest that you were going to force amalgamation on the people of Metro Toronto? What mandate do you have from the people of Metro to erase their local identities and impose a forced assimilation? What right do you have, Minister?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I answered that question earlier to the member for Oakwood. If the member wants to read the Common Sense Revolution and see the position that our government took on municipal governments, layers of government, overlap, waste, duplication, that we would do everything in our power to get rid of it --

Interjection.

We pointed out on a number of occasions that we were going to eliminate waste and duplication and overlap of governments. We said there were too many governments, we said there were too many politicians, and there are.

Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): Mr Speaker, on a point of order: The minister mentioned that the megacity legislation proposal was on page 17 in the blue book, the Common Sense Revolution. It is not there. Will he correct that?

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): No. You can correct your own record and on occasion you can even correct another member of your caucus's record, but you can't be allowed to correct other members' records.

Mr Cordiano: Minister, you can't go ahead with your forced amalgamation. You can't do it without consulting the people first. Act like a democratic leader instead of a dictator.

I ask the minister a very simple question: Will you support my private member's resolution calling for a referendum on this forced amalgamation? I've tabled that with the clerks right here in the Legislature. That's up for debate. I want to know: Will you support my private member's resolution calling for a referendum on this matter? Will you allow the people of Metro Toronto a say in how they're going to be governed?

Hon Mr Leach: Let me think about that for a minute. No.

DAY CARE

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): My question is to the Chair of Management Board. On numerous occasions, I've raised the issue of four school-based day care centres in Toronto that will be forced to close because your government refuses to provide the $1.5 million in capital funding that's required.

I've got the commitment of the Minister of Community and Social Services twice now to meet with the parents. That meeting was scheduled for yesterday. It got cancelled at the last minute and they were told it was because the executive assistant wanted to go to a briefing on the megacity legislation. They're furious. They had to take time off work. They're angry, and rightly so.

The Toronto Board of Education has been told that Management Board and your government refuses to provide the $1.5 million in capital funding and an alternative should be looked at. One of the parents was told by one of the minister's staff that they have had conversations with a commercial, for-profit operator who wants to move into those centres. In fact, she told them that many commercial, for-profit operators want to move into school-based centres. Is this your goal, your government's goal, Minister, to drive non-profit, parent-board centres out of business and hand them and public school building facilities over to your commercial, for-profit allies?

Hon David Johnson (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet, Minister of Health, Government House Leader): I know representatives of the day care centres had a meeting arranged yesterday, I believe it was, with staff of the ministry involved, the Ministry of Community and Social Services, and unfortunately that meeting had to be cancelled.

I know that staff have met on at least one other occasion with the staff of one of the day care centres. Meetings are being arranged at this point and there is a willingness obviously to get together and to cooperate and to look at this matter. That's the forum in which it should be discussed and I'm quite confident those meetings will be arranged between the ministry and the representatives of the day care -- the individual entities in the schools, and hopefully it'll be sorted out.

Ms Lankin: Minister, it can only get sorted out if you provide the capital funding, and your minister has already said no. As Chair of Management Board you took $40 million in capital funds and converted them to 40 million so-called new dollars in operating funds and then boasted that your government was spending more than any other government. Then you put a freeze on that money and not a single cent has been spent nor will it be in this budget year. It would take $1.4 million of that $40 million to ensure the continuation of these four centres.

The minister has told us that Management Board and the government's policy is that you won't convert the money back to capital, and yet when it was politically convenient to you in your riding, you did just that. You approved $380,000 for the construction of a new Red Apple Day Care Centre in Marc Garneau High School. We have the Metro school board report to verify this, and that it was not minor health and safety repairs, as the minister led people to believe; it was new construction, exactly like these four other centres.

Minister, you made it happen once. You did the right thing for Red Apple when it was in your riding. Do the right thing for these other four centres. Convert the $1.4 million. Save these centres.

Hon David Johnson: It's been pointed out on many occasions that the greatest burden that's going to be passed along to our children, and which is going to hinder the future of the children of Ontario, is the debt that has been created under the government represented by the member opposite during the five years of their tenure, having increased the debt of the province of Ontario from some $40 billion to $100 billion. That is going to be the burden our children have to bear in the years ahead.

But I will say that this government has taken initiatives in terms of the day care community. This government has committed to spending up to $600 million for child care. This government has budgeted $37 million to provide special services for children with developmental disabilities. This government has looked at the day care services as a priority and is moving ahead. The ministry will be meeting with representatives of the four day care centres that are affected by this.

ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PROGRAM

Mr Peter L. Preston (Brant-Haldimand): My question is to the minister responsible for seniors. This province's $1.2-billion drug benefit plan provides medications to more than two million people, more than half of whom are seniors. I'm told by pharmacists in my riding that the government is taking steps to bolster the plan with more medications. What can you tell me about this initiative?

Hon Cameron Jackson (Minister without Portfolio [Seniors Issues]): I'm pleased to inform members of the House and my colleague that effective tomorrow the Ontario government will be adding 97 new medications to the Ontario Drug Benefit Formulary. About half of these are going to be less expensive generic drugs which will reduce the overall cost of the program. This will allow us to reinvest those savings by adding 47 new single-source medications that have never before been on the formulary. We're pleased that this expansion is going to occur.

The previous two governments clawed back and removed drugs from the drug plan, causing out-of-pocket costs for seniors and social assistance recipients in this province. We have added 400 new drugs to the program. That's over 20 new drugs for each and every month we've been elected to office in Ontario. This is smart health care spending, this is reducing waste and duplication, and this reinvesting direct dollars into direct patient care in Ontario.

Mr Preston: The people of my riding are pleased to see the ODB formulary expanded. It will mean fewer out-of-pocket costs for them. But there are some seniors in my community still worried about the copayment costs and how expensive they could be since the federal government has decided that drugs aren't part of the Canada Health Act. How does the cost of our drug plan fare against those in other provinces?

Hon Mr Jackson: It is true that the drug plans in all the provinces are not covered under the Canada Health Act, but it is true also that Ontario was the last province to ask its seniors to participate in this insurance plan, the last province with a free drug plan. The previous two governments removed drugs from the plan. We have added new drugs to the plan. Low-income seniors in Ontario will be spending approximately, on average, $4 a month, about $48 a year, and this will provide them with ODB-listed drugs worth about $753 a year. I want to compare that with other provinces.

I want the members of the House to be aware that in British Columbia they are paying out of pocket, per senior, $200, in Quebec $277, in PEI $356, in Saskatchewan $540. In Ontario, $4 a month sounds like a pretty good deal. Under the expanded Trillium program 140,000 working poor are receiving benefits and 400 new drugs have been added by this government, a record we've very proud of.

Applause.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. Members come to order.

Interjection: It was a good answer.

The Speaker: It may well have been a good answer, but it wasn't that good.

SPEECH-LANGUAGE PATHOLOGY

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): My question is to the Minister of Health. Minister, I'm asking this question today on behalf of a very special little boy. Adam May is 32 months old, not yet three years old, and he is significantly speech-delayed. Sixteen months ago Adam's parents became concerned about his speech development. They contacted their doctor, who counselled them to watch and wait. Ten months ago Adam's doctor referred Adam for speech and language assessment. His parents were told that Adam would have to wait until December, a full 10 months, due to your budget cuts.

Finally, last Friday, Adam was assessed at the Mississauga General Hospital. The assessment confirmed that he is significantly speech-delayed and he's been placed on a priority waiting list for a speech pathologist. It was also recommended that Adam undergo a psychological test. The speech pathologist has told the May family that it may take six months more until treatment can even begin.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Question.

Mrs Caplan: I hope you'll agree that six months is too long for a fragile child like Adam to wait. He has been listed as a priority, he's at the most critical stage of his development in his young life and I'm asking you to make sure he doesn't have to wait six months more. Will you intervene --

The Speaker: Member for Oriole, thank you.

Hon David Johnson (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet, Minister of Health, Government House Leader): In terms of the issue that's been put before me today, it's one every member of this House could say we would have the greatest of sympathy for and would do everything we could, and certainly I as Minister of Health will be interested to see the details of that particular case and follow through.

I am informed that the government has plans to introduce a speech and language pathology initiative, some $10 million; the details are being worked out. How that may affect the case in question at this point in time I don't know, but I will say that I'm glad that the member for Oriole has brought this to attention and I look forward to receiving the details and pursuing it.

Mrs Caplan: Minister, Adam can't wait. Adam's father is in the gallery today and will be happy to share with you the specific details. He's left many, many messages with your ministry. Yesterday, he finally had a return phone call and your staff told Mr May to contact his district health council. He can do nothing but wait unless you help him, and such answers from your office, I would suggest to you, are unacceptable.

Despite the fact that the Mays have been told that Adam requires urgent attention, he will not even be seen by a psychologist until January 22, four months after a referral by his paediatrician. As I said before, it is critical for Adam's speech development that he see someone now and that he get attention now. The bottom line is that your government's cuts to hospitals have created this mess.

The Speaker: Question, please.

Mrs Caplan: We need you to intervene. I want you to know that Adam's father is here. He told me that he has never even heard Adam, who is not yet three years old, say "Daddy." On behalf of Adam's parents, I'm asking you to intervene in this extremely urgent case and help Adam --

The Speaker: Member for Oriole, thank you very much.

Hon David Johnson: I've indicated to the member for Oriole that I am certainly most interested to see the details that she has of this particular case and I'm sure that the staff of the Ministry of Health will be anxious to get those details and to pursue it.

This government is not satisfied with the health care program in total. We believe that the health care system needs to be improved. We've indicated that before we became government and since we've become government. We believe that the health care system needs to be improved. We've committed to protecting the health care budget, and indeed this year we have increased it, but certainly there's no question that individual cases come up and individual cases need to be pursued. I thank the member for Oriole for raising the issue today.

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I want to express my thanks to the Minister of Education and Training for returning so that I could put this question with regard to the discussion paper on apprentice reform which his ministry has released today. The consultation paper points out that the federal contribution to in-school training ends in 1999 and it puts forward five options. Four of those five involve offloading of these costs, either fully or partially, on to apprentices and/or their employers.

Could the minister indicate if that's his intention and could he indicate what commitment there will be to the community colleges in terms of funding, considering the cost cutting and expenditure cuts that he is proposing and has already implemented in that area of post-secondary education?

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): It's a pleasure to return to a question from the member opposite, the member for Algoma. I always enjoy his questions. We have released a discussion paper on apprenticeship today. As the member opposite might know --

Mr Gilles Pouliot (Lake Nipigon): Turn down the music, Speaker.

Hon Mr Snobelen: Please, Gilles, I want to return to the question; I want to have a chance to answer it.

As he said, we have a recent discussion paper. It's been 30 years since there have been significant changes to the apprenticeship program in Ontario. We think it's time to have a look at it. We have a discussion paper out. We want to talk to people who are involved in the apprenticeship program -- employers, apprentices and other people who are concerned -- about the future of this program.

There are funding changes coming over the next few years. We want to see who should pay -- what is the fair share for an apprentice, what is the fair share for the private sector -- and how can the province best support those trades. It's equally important that we work on the apprenticeship programs to make them more attractive to young people because there are fewer young people entering the trades now. I look forward to the responses to this paper and I'm glad that we're out there now looking for a better apprenticeship program for this province.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): No, I'm sorry. Question period ended.

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

Hon David Johnson (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet, Minister of Health, Government House Leader): I move that notwithstanding standing order 96(a), the House will not meet to consider private members' public business on Thursday morning, December 19, 1996, and that notwithstanding standing order 96(h), the requirement for notice be waived with respect to ballot items 55, 56, 57, 58, 59 and 60.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I would just like to clarify on the record that this means that the House will not sit tomorrow morning.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Questions or comments? Further debate?

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): Can we get an answer to that?

The Speaker: The answer is yes.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

PETITIONS

ROMAN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS

Mr Gilles E. Morin (Carleton East): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the right of Catholic ratepayers to govern Catholic education in Ontario is constitutionally protected in the British North America Act (1867) and the Constitution Act (1982); and

"Whereas the Minister of Education and Training is reviewing and considering a number of reforms to the education system in Ontario; and

"Whereas a number of these proposed reforms would have a serious negative impact on Catholic education;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"We strongly urge that the Minister of Education and Training be requested to reaffirm the government's commitment to the maintenance of Roman Catholic denominational rights ensuring that any reforms will not lessen or abrogate any such rights;

"And further, that the minister enter into realistic and meaningful consultation with all education stakeholders that will lead to positive change for students."

I affix my signature.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Harris government has begun a process to open the Occupational Health and Safety Act of Ontario;

"Whereas this act is the single most important piece of legislation for working people since it is designed to protect our lives, safety and health while at work and allow us to return home to our families in the same condition in which we left; and

"Whereas the government has made it clear that they intend to water down the act and weaken the rights of workers under the law, including the right to know, the right to participate and especially the right to refuse; and

"Whereas this government has already watered down proper training of certified committee members;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario not to alter the Occupational Health and Safety Act or erode the rights of workers any further and to ensure strict enforcement of the legislation."

I affix my name to the petition.

CHARLOTTE ELEANOR ENGLEHART HOSPITAL

Mr Marcel Beaubien (Lambton): I have a petition with 12,000 names that reads as follows:

"We, the concerned citizens and taxpayers of rural Lambton county, object to the notice of intention to issue directions to Charlotte Eleanor Englehart Hospital by the Health Services Restructuring Commission and depriving us of a full-service hospital and taking away all our acute care beds. This places our lives at risk and denies us the same opportunity for health care as other citizens within the county.

"Our hospital must continue to provide rural primary care, including acute services and 24-hour emergency care, for our taxpayers and voters. We must maintain essential services in our community."

I'll affix my signature.

FATHERS

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): I have a petition from Lloyd Gorling of Williamstown, who organized it and requested that I present it to the Legislative Assembly. It reads as follows:

"Whereas children need the unfettered presence, care and love of their fathers, and fathers want to have, care for and nurture their children after marriage breakdown as well as before; and

"Whereas marital separation is the end of the conjugal and financial relationship between a father and mother; and

"Whereas fathers experience misandry in the family courts of Ontario and other institutions which is depriving them of their children and subjugating them financially; and

"Whereas statutory recognition of these facts will reduce the burden of legal costs on families and the government, eliminate fatherlessness, cut down on self-destructive behaviour by separated fathers, reduce violence and produce healthier and happier children with a greater sense of belonging and commitment to society;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario to pass legislation:

"To ensure that no father is deprived against his will of the opportunity to fully and completely parent his children regardless of the father's marital status (unless the father has put the children's welfare at risk and all available alternatives have been exhausted); and furthermore

"To ensure that no father who is willing to care for his child is required to pay for the cost of child care provided by his child's mother when the child is under her care and not his care (unless the father has put the child's welfare at risk and all available alternatives have been exhausted), in particular for the cost of food, clothing and shelter;

"To provide an apology to fathers and children separated by the misandry of the family law system."

It's signed by 157 constituents of my riding, S-D-G & East Grenville and Prescott and Russell.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the Harris government has begun a process to open the Occupational Health and Safety Act of Ontario; and

"Whereas this act is the single most important piece of legislation for working people since it is designed to protect our lives, safety and health while at work and allow us to return home to our families in the same condition in which we left; and

"Whereas the government has made it clear that they intend to water down the act and weaken the rights of workers under the law, including the right to know, the right to participate and especially the right to refuse; and

"Whereas this government has already watered down proper training of certified committee members;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario not to alter the Occupational Health and Safety Act or erode the rights of workers any further and ensure strict enforcement of the legislation."

That's signed by Larry Bishop, Gemma Mauro, John Degazio, Jane Palmer, Yvonne Ryan, Nora Gorges, Frances Albano and many others of Welland and area. I add my signature as a gesture of my support for this petition.

SCHOOL PRAYERS

Mr Bill Murdoch (Grey-Owen Sound): I have a petition to the Legislature of Ontario from the Grand Orange Lodge of Ontario West.

"Being a firm supporter of the public school system and the Protestant faith, herewith does the undersigned petition the government of Ontario to reinstate the Lord's Prayer in the public school system of Ontario."

There are over 2,000 signatures on this and I've affixed mine.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): I have thousands of petitions and letters sent to me by students, parents, teachers and all concerned citizens, so many that they've been delivered to the Minister of Education in this Christmas bag. If I may --

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Marilyn Churley): Would you take your seat for a moment. We're in the middle of petitions and I can't hear a thing. Would the members come to order, please. That includes the member for Beaches-Woodbine. Thank you.

Mr Gravelle: My petition reads:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario," from the thousands of people in Thunder Bay:

"Whereas the Ministry of Education is discussing the education cutbacks in Ontario;

"Whereas the cuts made so far have already seriously affected our education system and further cuts will endanger essential services;

"Whereas cuts mean the threat of school closures, fewer cocurricular activities, more out-of-date textbooks, crowded classrooms, less special education, out-of-date technology, less funding for arts programs, fewer course options, fewer sports and overcrowded school buses;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to disallow any more cutbacks in the eduction system."

I'm proud to sign it as well.

WORKERS' COMPENSATION

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): I have a petition here signed by a number of people from the community of Timmins, and it reads as follows:

"We, the following undersigned citizens, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"Whereas the government of Ontario has plans to make changes to the Workers' Compensation Act which will have negative impact on workers; and

"Whereas the changes include reducing the payouts to 85% of earnings, eliminating various types of injuries and having employees apply for their employee benefits; and

"Whereas the WCB had a surplus of $510 million in 1995; and

"Whereas in 1994 there was uncollected employer debt of $173 million; and

"Whereas these problems within the WCB are not the fault of injured workers; and

"Whereas the recommendation to privatize will result in an increase of 13% in administration costs.

"Therefore,

be it resolved that the government of Ontario stop its plan to privatize WCB and that the extensive provincial-wide hearings be held before any changes be made to the Workers' Compensation Board; and

I'm very much in support of this particular petition as it is an attack on injured workers and I think the government should definitely not proceed with this particular mode of attack against the Workers' Compensation Board.

VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Simcoe Centre): I have a petition. It's not in the proper form, but there are more than 100 signatures. It concerns video lottery terminals in bars and hotels.

NORTH YORK BRANSON HOSPITAL

Mr Monte Kwinter (Wilson Heights): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the final report of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee has recommended that North York Branson Hospital merge with York-Finch hospital; and

"Whereas this recommendation will remove emergency and inpatient services currently provided by North York Branson Hospital, which will seriously jeopardize medical care and the quality of health provided to the growing population which the hospital serves, many being elderly people who in numerous cases require treatment for life-threatening medical conditions;

"We petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reject the recommendation contained within the final report of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee as it pertains to North York Branson Hospital, so that it retains, at minimum, emergency and inpatient services."

I've affixed my signature.

EDUCATION REFORM

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I have a petition signed by about 16 residents of the Toronto area. It's addressed to the government of Ontario, and it reads as follows:

"Whereas the proposed changes to secondary schools as outlined in Ontario Secondary Schools, the detailed discussion document, makes it easier for students to drop out; and

"Whereas the types of courses offered, as outlined in the discussion document, will not meet the needs of minority students; and

"Whereas there is too much emphasis placed on workplace education, as outlined in the discussion document; and

"Whereas, as outlined in the discussion document, students who are at risk of dropping out will continue to be at risk; and

"Whereas there is a lack of minority teachers to act as teacher advisers, as outlined in the discussion document; and

"Whereas the proposed anti-discrimination education, as outlined in the discussion document, is virtually meaningless;

"We, the undersigned, wish to express our great dismay and opposition to these proposed changes and urge the Ontario Ministry of Education and Training to reconsider these ill-advised changes to our education system."

I sign my name to the petition, as I support it.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mrs Helen Johns (Huron): I have a petition from the people of Huron county, and as we all know, the government has not cut funding to health care but has reduced spending in the hospital area:

"To the Parliament of Ontario:

"Whereas the Honourable Jim Wilson, Minister of Health, has announced an 18% reduction to the health system which would result in major cuts to hospital services, reductions in medical-surgical beds, and possible closures of hospitals; and

"Whereas the future of the hospitals within Huron county is currently under review by the Huron-Perth District Health Council;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"Whereas the citizens of Huron county realize that there are to be cuts and reductions to health care; and

"Whereas restructuring and financial responsibilities can be accomplished without direct hospital closures;

"Be it hereby resolved that the citizens of Huron county care about their hospitals and hereby implore the Honourable Jim Wilson, Minister of Health, to give every consideration to ensure that the reduction of health care not result in the closure of hospitals in the county."

FIRE SAFETY

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): This petition is in response to Bill 84.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the firefighters of Sudbury and Ontario are very concerned about Bill 84;

"Whereas we feel Bill 84 is unfair;

"Whereas we feel Bill 84 is discriminatory;

"Whereas we feel Bill 84 endangers the wellbeing of the people of Ontario;

"Whereas we feel Bill 84 requires extensive changes;

"Whereas we feel Bill 84 needs broad provincial public hearings before implementation,

"We, the undersigned, therefore petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to demand the Solicitor General rewrite Bill 84 before being enacted into law and only after extensive public hearings across Ontario."

I affix my signature, as I agree with the petition.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Ms Shelley Martel (Sudbury East): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative to Assembly of Ontario which reads as follows.

"Whereas the Harris government has begun a process to open the Occupational Health and Safety Act of Ontario;

"Whereas the act is the single most important piece of legislation for working people since it is designed to protect our lives, safety and health while at work and allow us to return home to our families in the same condition in which we left;

"Whereas the government has made it clear that they intend to water down the act and weaken the rights of workers under the law, including the right to know, the right to participate, and especially the right to refuse;

"Whereas this government has already watered down proper training of certified committee members,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario not to alter the Occupational Health and Safety Act or erode the rights of workers any further and ensure strict enforcement of the legislation."

This is signed by 18 residents in Welland-Thorold. I believe in it as well and I affix my signature to it.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

Mr Laughren from the standing committee on government agencies presented the committee's 29th report.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Marilyn Churley): Does the Chair wish to make a statement?

Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt): I've had a request by the member for Renfrew North to explain what this report is. It simply is a report. We met this morning and approved the appointment of a gentleman to the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, and I'm pleased to report that to the House.

The Acting Speaker: Pursuant to standing order 106(g)(11), the report is deemed to be adopted by the House.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

FIRE PROTECTION AND PREVENTION ACT, 1996./ LOI DE 1996 SUR LA PRÉVENTION ET LA PROTECTION CONTRE L'INCENDIE

Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 84,

An Act to promote Fire Prevention and Public Safety in Ontario and to amend and repeal certain other Acts relating to Fire Services / Projet de loi 84, Loi visant à promouvoir la prévention des incendies et la sécurité publique en Ontario et modifiant ou abrogeant certaines autres lois relatives aux services de lutte contre les incendies.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Marilyn Churley): The member for Oakville South.

Mr Gary Carr (Oakville South): I'd like to add a few comments on Bill 84, and I must say that I'm looking forward to some of the debate on this bill as we move forward into the intersession.

You will know that it has been almost 50 years, and some of the issues surrounding fire services are finally being dealt with. I'm under no illusions that a lot of these questions will be easy. In fact, we've had an opportunity to meet with some of the people involved in this and I'm sure there will be a tremendous amount of discussion.

I've listened with interest to some of the members and their concerns and discussions during some of the debates and I must say that I'm looking forward to some of the public hearings that will be --

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: Can I ask the members of the House to please come to order. I'm having trouble hearing the member. Thank you, and I won't single out the member for Beaches-Woodbine this time.

Mr Carr: It's been a rough week for the member.

I'm looking forward to a lot of the discussions over the intersession as we deal with this bill. I realize that over the last little while a lot of these issues have been discussed by all three parties, and we believe we brought something forward that will be in the best interests of the people of Ontario.

We know that most fire losses could have been avoided with greater fire prevention and public education over the last little while. Many of the reports that have been out dealing with it and many of the coroners' reports have dealt with these issues. So we're looking forward to a lot of these discussions over the next little while.

I would like to talk a little bit about some of the specifics of the bill. As you know, this act consolidates nine separate statutes: the Fire Departments Act, the Fire Marshals Act, the Hotel Fire Safety Act, the Firefighters Protection Act, 1993, the Lightning Rods Act, the Firefighters Exemption Act, and the Accidental Fires Act and Fire Accidents Act.

Interjections.

Mr Carr: For the people at home who may not be able to hear, some of the members are saying these aren't like my old speeches, and in fact some of the members will remember the old days with the rubber chickens and some of the other props. But it's a kinder and gentler Gary Carr. Like a lot of things, as I get a little bit older I guess I'm mellowing a little bit. In fact, Madam Speaker, you will know that even yesterday I had a chance for the first time in my six years to sit in the chair as Speaker. I've never had the chance to do that.

It is a pleasure to deal with this bill and to talk about some of the concerns that are out there over the next little while.

I want to right off the bat take a quick moment to thank all of the people involved in the ministry. I've had an opportunity to meet with the fire marshal and the coroner and many of the people in the policy and legal departments. We have spent a great deal of time dealing with this bill and I want to say that I've never had an opportunity to go through a bill in as much detail, having been the parliamentary assistant now in going through, and I realize the hard work and the dedication that went into putting forward this bill. I want to thank all the members of the ministry for their hard work and effort.

For example, some of the bills that are being changed here have not been touched in the last 50 years. There has been an extensive consultation over the last little while with the municipalities and some of the fire chiefs as well as the member for Mississauga South. So we are beginning the process of hearing from the people over the next little while.

We are talking about something that is fundamental to the people of this province in terms of fire safety. Some of the provisions that we will be introducing with this legislation will be mandatory fire prevention and public education. I think that's one area where all members of this House will be able to agree on what we are doing. There are many parts of the bill that members will agree with, there are some parts that they will point out that we should be changing, and I look forward to having some in-depth discussions.

I've had an opportunity to meet with some of the associations on a couple of occasions to go through it. They've been very helpful in presenting some of the concerns they have, and there are some valid concerns they've brought forward, I think, in a very forthright manner.

I'm sure all their members will know about the fact that some of the people involved in the leadership of the associations have been very forceful in putting their ideas forward. As I said to those folks when we met, I'm under no illusions that I have any of the final decisions on this piece of legislation. Cabinet makes the decisions. I can make recommendations, but ultimately the Solicitor General and the cabinet make the final decisions.

But I have enjoyed going through the process with both the staff and some of the associations, as well as some of the chiefs I've met. They brought some ideas forward. There are some things we agree with, some things we disagree with, but I think all members of this House and everyone involved in this bill will realize that what we're talking about is very profound for this province because we are talking about lives being at stake.

We believe Bill 84 makes it easier for municipalities to arrange, for example, things like automatic aid efforts with their neighbours and neighbouring communities, and we are confident they will begin to work together to ensure public safety.

I want to touch on some of the major portions of the bill. The Public Fire Safety Council I think is one of the areas where there will be agreement from the members, and I trust the members will be very specific in the parts they do agree with because I believe there are some things where there will be consensus on some of the pieces of legislation.

One of the many welcome things that the proposed legislation does is give the Public Fire Safety Council legal status, which will enable it to attract some private sector partners for funding. This will expand the council's opportunities to provide public education to all Ontarians. Again, I think that's one area in terms of public education, and there may be other areas where we can't agree, but there is certainly a fundamental agreement in that regard between all members of this House and the people of the province.

The Public Fire Safety Council was established by the fire marshal in 1993 to raise public awareness and promote partnership with community groups as well as the private sector. We believe Bill 84 will enhance that. As you can see, the council's membership represents a wide variety of partners all working together towards the common goal of fire prevention and public safety. To date, the office of the fire marshal has been successful in raising funds for public education through the activities of this council, but what this will do is give legal status to the council.

There are many specific benefits in establishing the council as a distinct entity. For example, the changes will increase the profile of public safety in the community. Our public education fund will also be set up to develop and put in place province-wide public education programs that will be at no cost to the taxpayer. I think many people will see this as a good thing and one of the benefits of this bill.

We also believe there are some things that will be of benefit to isolated communities and to rural communities across this fine province of ours. Many Ontarians, as you know, live in rural areas that are very isolated because of geographic considerations and because of weather considerations, many parts of the north, and a lot of those people are asking how this bill will help people who live in those areas. I firmly believe this legislation will improve public safety for Ontario municipalities, including a lot of the rural communities and northern communities.

It provides for the first time unincorporated communities in the north with the authority they need for effective fire prevention and fire safety, and again that is an area I believe will be seen by the people of Ontario as being a good thing. In those areas the traditional focus on fire suppression has not and will not provide the necessary level of public safety. We believe this will assist that. This bill gives them the means to take advantage of technology and place more emphasis on early warning systems and escape plans through effective prevention and public education.

I want to touch very briefly on automatic aid because I believe this is another important element of the bill. This is a concept allowing the closest fire station to respond to an emergency regardless of the municipal borders. During these challenging times, I think that will be again something that is going to be a benefit to the safety of the people of this province.

Automatic aid is a priority of this government. When lives are at stake, as we all know and everyone agrees on that, it shouldn't matter which fire department responds, and I think that has been a tradition in this province. It is something that has worked well. We believe and the ministry believes that there are a lot of things in this bill that will actually enhance that. We hope that there will be many comments regarding that

section of the bill. We firmly believe, as I think all members and most of the public will, that whoever gets there and responds fast should be the one to respond, because in many communities, in many areas, as you know, the fire stations will be closer to one particular part of their municipal borders than others. If we believe that there may be some problems in the future, we also reserve the right and are prepared to act to ensure cooperation with neighbouring fire departments. That is happening now, but we believe it will actually be strengthened.

I also would like to take this opportunity to recognize the contribution of the firefighters right across this fine province of ours in service delivery. I don't think any of us in our capacity as MPPs have not spent a great deal of time -- in my own area of Oakville some of the people helping out on my son's hockey team are firefighters; we often debate some of the issues. I think it would be something that we agree on all across this province, that the firefighters have done a terrific job in this province.

Ontario's professional firefighters are among the finest in the country. I will even go out on a limb and say that they are the finest in the country, having demonstrated their commitment and dedication to fire protection and prevention for over 80 years. Firefighters play a huge role in our communities, not only ensuring safety, but as we all know, doing a tremendous amount of work within the community.

I had the opportunity to represent the Solicitor General in the community in some of the programs that the firefighters have, everything from helping out with the hospitals to giving out some of the toys for kids at Christmas. As we all know, the firefighters across the province of Ontario have been an integral part of our community.

I will say this: There are some concerns by some of the associations, and we hope that during the public hearings there will be an opportunity to get some of those out, particularly some of the sections. Without putting words into the mouths of the associations, I think there are a lot of parts they agree with. There are some parts they have some concerns with. We're hoping to hear from them, particularly as it relates to some of the labour provisions.

I think I understand their positions now. I've had a bit of an opportunity to hear from them directly. I've heard both sides of the issue, and in my own mind I'm attempting to formulate some of the things that I believe will be making this bill better, some of the things that can be added and some of the things that can be taken out. Again, at the end of the day it will be the government and the cabinet and the Solicitor General that make the final decisions, but I'm looking forward to that opportunity.

I must say also that I couldn't leave the whole issue of fire services without talking about the volunteers. I believe that over the course of the last years it has been the volunteers who in many areas have been of tremendous benefit to this province. Approximately 18,000 of the 26,000 firefighters in this province are volunteers, and we are hoping that there will be some participation by the people involved in volunteer firefighting to talk about the things they like about the bill, and if there are any concerns, obviously to voice those concerns as well.

They represent approximately -- this figure is outstanding when you think about it -- $1 billion in assets in the province, and we intend to ensure that the volunteer system is supported and enhanced with this bill. We believe it does that and we're hoping that the opportunity to hear from the people of the province will also confirm that. Through restructuring, volunteers will have better access to training programs and facilities. Again, I think this is one area that all members can agree on.

I want to touch briefly on some of the labour relations, because these will be some of the most contentious parts for some of the associations. Obviously, we're going to be listening and looking at some of the concerns that have been put forward. Many members have already had the opportunity of meeting with some of the firefighters who have come into their community constituency offices and put some ideas forward.

I am confident that once we have had an opportunity to look at it, and when we've got an opportunity to look at the package as a whole, they will appreciate that these changes are fair and reasonable and will ensure public safety. That's our hope and our intention, and it remains to be seen, but I certainly will say I'm looking forward to that process.

The changes will bring fire services more in line with some of the other changes in labour legislation. As you know, this government has made major changes in the area of labour legislation over the 18 months we've been in office. This attempts to bring it more in line. I think everyone agrees that the key is fire safety. There will be those who will argue that some of the labour provisions will not help in that area. I must say that I'm looking forward to hearing from many people across this great province of ours and I suspect we may even have an opportunity at some point to travel on this bill and hear from other communities as well.

With this bill the intention of the government is to ensure people's skills and talents can be arranged and managed in a way to better serve the public. That itself will improve public and fire safety as well as the safety for firefighters. There will, though, be a lot of changes, and obviously even some of the circumstances surrounding municipalities are going to mean major change for fire services. The bill introduced yesterday changing Toronto will have a profound effect because we now will not have all the fire services; we'll have one fire service.

I think it would be an understatement to say that there will be many changes in the fire services in this province. It is the government's intention to try and do it with the interests and the safety of the people of the province at the utmost, but that isn't to say that there won't be a tremendous amount of concern out there through the municipal restructuring.

I suspect, and I guess this is another understatement, that a lot of the changes with the municipalities won't be just in Toronto. There will be many changes with municipalities across this province. When you affect municipalities, you affect the firefighting services many of the associations are right to try and work and ensure. What this bill attempts to do is set the framework for fire services in the province. It then will be changed as the municipalities restructure, as they go through that process, and I'm under no illusion that it will be an easy process. It will be difficult.

There's a lot of anxiety and concern out there, and it's not just with the firefighters. There is in other areas: education and health care. But the one thing the firefighters out there need to realize is that Bill 84 is attempted to be done in the context of providing fire safety.

We hope to hear some of the good things that are in this bill. We hope to hear some of the things that may need to be changed. At the end of the day, the government will take all that information and make the decisions that it believes are necessary.

I'd like to take just a quick minute, in concluding, to close by reiterating that this government's commitment to public safety is the real key to fire protection and prevention with regard to this bill. This legislation sets the foundation for safer jurisdictions by ensuring that fire prevention and safety education, balanced with an appropriate level of fire suppression, are priorities in every part of this province. I'm confident that all members of the fire services as well as the general public, as well as the municipalities, will work together to create safer communities in all of Ontario. The safety of the people of this province is, again, all of the major concerns that we believe --

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker: Order, please. The member for Grey-Owen Sound, you're on the wrong side of the House.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: I'd like to ask the members to come to order, please. Go ahead.

Mr Carr: What actually is twigging my memory is that the members are speaking again a little bit about some of my performances in the House. I wasn't laughing at them; I was actually smiling at some of the performances. I just twigged to one which we won't get into here today. I think it was right around Christmastime that that particular event took place. But we'll get back to Bill 84 and save that one for off the air, particularly since my mother may be watching today and maybe wouldn't want that one to be brought forward.

In conclusion, I will say that I'm looking forward to taking this bill forward. It is going to be a good experience for myself to hear from people, from all members. I'm going to particularly look forward to working back and forth with the members of the ministry and their staffs in making some of the changes that need to be made on this and going through the whole process. It will be tedious, but I must say that I believe that's part of the process that will make the bill a better bill. At the end of the day we all need to believe, and firmly believe, in what we are doing, and what this bill will do is to attempt to enhance fire safety.

In conclusion, I am pleased to talk on this bill a little bit. I'm going to reserve some of my comments to respond to the various questions that will come forward. But I say to the people of the province, we're looking forward to it and hopefully all members are looking forward to hearing from Ontario on Bill 84.

The Acting Speaker: Questions or comments?

Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): It's a pleasure for me to reply to the speech of the kinder and gentler member for Oakville South. It was interesting to me that he made an observation, albeit true, but that he would say it. I think I'm paraphrasing, but early on his comments he said, "There will be some changes to this bill," and something to the effect that, "I know I won't have much input into that because the cabinet makes the decisions."

That's part of the problem we have, and I'm sure many of the backbenchers have, with this government, that they don't consult those that they should, particularly the backbenchers. I'm sure, for example, the megabill that's before us and the effect that it will have on firefighters is not something that the members opposite in the government side have been consulted with to any great degree.

Of course, we know why that is, because not only will they not listen to their own members, they won't even listen to the people who are affected. To the 2.5 million people who are going to have an amalgamation, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing has said: "It doesn't matter what the people say. It doesn't matter if they rise up. It doesn't matter if the municipalities hold a referendum. We're not going to listen. This is going to be done."

They've taken away the powers of municipal councils. When the municipal councils in the next year or so want to deal with their firefighters, they'll be hampered because some unelected, unaccountable trustees will be in their place making decisions that in a normal democracy -- not a dictatorship like we're going to have -- would represent the people and would be accountable to them.

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): I'm pleased to respond to the member for Oakville South. I wanted to indicate that there are many parts of this bill in fact that we could be supportive of, if he would move to take out the very contentious issues, issues that the professional firefighters are so concerned about, issues that they have time and time again said that your government has broken its promise to them on with respect to appropriate consultation.

While we will be going out to committee, and I'm sure we'll be hearing from firefighters, we could have a much more constructive debate if those sections were removed. They've made very clear the areas that you promised to consult on that you haven't and that you've included in this bill; for example, the new definition of "employer," which invites the privatization of fire departments, or the new definition of "firefighter," which will inevitably lead to less-qualified part-time firefighters.

Section 52 eliminates firefighters' long-standing right to negotiate their hours of work. It also has the potential to limit or roll back firefighters' pension benefits. We believe, along with them, that this

section is regressive and that it sets labour relations back decades in that sector. Also, the bargaining unit exclusions are open-ended, they're ambiguous and far exceed anything that had been discussed previously.

Again, you're very clearly on the record in terms of your commitment to consult with this group, and they've made it very clear that you haven't lived up to that.

While some of the measures with respect to fire protection and fire prevention are positive steps that have come through a period of review under two governments now and are finally moving forward to being able to be put into legislation, and virtually everyone would find some agreement around those, you have yet again moved with an anti-worker agenda against professional firefighters, who are amazed that this government would treat them in that way and have created a controversy around a bill which otherwise could be good public policy that we could all support.

I urge you just to withdraw those sections and we could see a much speedier passage of this bill.

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): I appreciated very much the member from Oakville's comments with regard to volunteers. In my constituency, where the vast majority of firefighting is done by those men and women who are involved in the various volunteer fire departments, it is well known and well appreciated. This summer, for example, I recall being at the Billings fire department's 20th anniversary in Billings township at my own home town of Kagawong and seeing many community members out to help the firefighters celebrate the hard work of the volunteers and to celebrate their 20 years of service.

Having said that, and seeing the Minister of Natural Resources and Minister of Northern Development here, one of the great concerns we're hearing through much of my constituency, and it's coming from the volunteers, as they see the downloading of forest firefighting responsibilities to municipalities and see that volunteers may very well be out there fighting forest fires in their unorganized townships, in particular we are very concerned that the government's actions are not the same as the government's words and that we will be putting people at risk in the volunteer service to do things that they are not perhaps trained to do, nor have the proper equipment to do.

I've heard that expressed even by the Elliott Lake firefighters, who operate with both professional firefighters and volunteers. They have the equivalent of about nine townships in that particular city, and it seems to me that some of the things that are happening with the Ministry of Natural Resources are going to put tremendous pressure on volunteer services. I would just like to bring that to the attention of the parliamentary assistant.

The Acting Speaker: Further questions or comments? The member for Welland-Thorold.

Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): Thank you, Speaker. I appreciate being recognized and having the chance to comment. It's interesting because the member from out around Oakville South presents this, oh, so sotto voce, and it was commented on during the course of his presentation. He's trying to make it seem so benign, as if it's but more of the fine-tuning that this government has abused institutions and communities and the people of Ontario with.

Once again, this government is trying to suck and blow at the same time. They're trying to leave the firefighters with the impression that, oh, yes, they're the friend of the firefighter. Are you kidding? Folks in Welland-Thorold, the firefighters from the Niagara region, know when they are getting the shaft, and they are getting the shaft. This is an attack on collective bargaining rights of professional firefighters. It's an expression of disdain for the professionalism and commitment that women and men in firefighting forces across the province have to their profession.

It's an insult and a betrayal of those same firefighters across Ontario who were promised -- and yes, the ubiquitous video camera was present there too. They videotaped Mike Harris, as he was then, before he was the Premier of Ontario, promising that there would be consultation with those very same people with whom he was speaking and their membership before stuff like this was brought forward.

Firefighters were lied to. We know that. There's no question about that. This government holds them in disdain. We know that. There's no question about that. Firefighters have been betrayed by a government that, when they were mere candidates, made promises that they're now not prepared to keep. Firefighters know better and this bill should be withdrawn.

The Acting Speaker: Thank you. The member for Oakville South.

Mr Carr: I'll comment very briefly on the comments made by the members. First of all, to the member for Essex South, that is not what I was saying about not having a voice. Those who know me will know that I'm very strong, probably even to a fault, in voicing my opinion. I shouldn't say this, because the Solicitor General isn't here, but I also obviously have a very good working relationship with the Solicitor General in bringing ideas forward.

What I did say is that at the end of the day the government will make the decisions on what they feel is necessary, but I am going to be prepared to bring it forward.

The member for Beaches-Woodbine is 100% correct that the labour issues are the most difficult,

part IX. I've spent some time and I want to tell the member for Welland-Thorold that the associations have been very clear with me. They've been very polite but they have been as forceful as they can be in terms of bringing their ideas forward.

I've attempted with this bill, which I sometimes haven't often done in the past, to hear what they're saying and hear what the ministry is saying. I've gone through all the sections and I think I understand very clearly. That isn't going to make it any easier, because the member for Beaches-Woodbine is 100% correct in that this is the contentious part of the issues. The concerns she's bringing forward are exactly what they've said to me in our discussions. They've been very forceful and polite but they have said, "These are the sections, here's the problems we've got," and they've gone through them. I've attempted to go back to the ministry and speak with those peop