Alberta Hansard — 31 October 1995, Afternoon sitting (13:30) (Legislature 23, Session 3)

19951031

Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

October 31, 1995 Alberta Hansard 2243 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Tuesday, October 31, 1995 1:30 p.m. Date: 95/10/31 [The Speaker in the Chair] head: Prayers THE SPEAKER: Let us pray. As Canadians and as Albertans we give thanks for the precious gifts of freedom and peace which we enjoy. As Members of this Legislative Assembly we rededicate ourselves to the valued traditions of parliamentary democracy as a means of serving both our province and our country. Amen. head: Presenting Petitions THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-North West. MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to present a petition signed by 29 Calgarians urging the government of Alberta to ensure that each eligible child receives a minimum of 400 hours of early childhood services instruction per year. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Vegreville-Viking. MR. STELMACH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to present two petitions today. The first is on behalf of the Hon. Ty Lund, signed by 56 parishioners of the St.

Matthew's Roman Catholic parish in Rocky Mountain House, which asks the government to deinsure induced abortion under the Alberta Health Care Insurance Act and to use community-based resources to promote positive alternatives to abortion. The second petition, on the same subject, I present on behalf of the Hon. Ken Rostad . . . THE SPEAKER: The Chair would remind the hon. member that names are not used; it's positions. The Minister of Environmental Protection. The hon. Member for Barrhead-Westlock. MR. STELMACH: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. The second petition, on the same subject, I present on behalf of the hon.

Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. It's signed by 180 parishioners of the Sacred Heart parish in Wetaskiwin. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Stony Plain. MR. WOLOSHYN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, will be presenting petitions on my behalf and also on a couple of my colleagues'. The first one is a petition from Our Lady of Perpetual Help, with 125 signatures. The second one is from St. Joseph's, with 47 signatures.

These petitions ask that the performance of induced abortion under the Alberta health care insurance plan be deinsured and that community-based resources that are already in place be used to offer positive alternatives to abortion. On the same topic, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague the Minister of Public Works, Supply and Services and MLA for Wainwright: it's from 134 Albertans from the Catholic communi- ties of Killam, Hardisty, Strome, and Galahad again petitioning the Legislature to deinsure abortion.

Also, on behalf of my colleague for Calgary-Varsity, the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism, two petitions: one from St. Pius X parish and the other from the Canadian Martyrs parish in Calgary, both on the same topic of deinsuring abortions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Dunvegan. MR. CLEGG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to present a petition signed by 227 individuals from the constituency of Dunvegan urging the government to 1. De-insure the performance of induced abortion under the Alberta Health Care Insurance Plan Act. 2.

Use the community-based resour ces that are already in place that offer positive alternatives to abortion. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Egmont. MR. HERARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, wish to present a petition on behalf of the parishioners of St. Bernadette Catholic church: 87 signatures with respect to the deinsurance of abortion. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. MR. HENRY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As a colleague on the far right of me said, “How could you miss me?” I have a couple of petitions I'd like to table today, with your leave, on a very serious matter.

One asks the Legislative Assembly to support the Liberal Party Bill requiring a minimum of 400 hours of kindergarten per school year. That's signed by individuals from various parts of the province, including Corona- tion and Didsbury, as well as from the Rocky Mountain House area. The second petition, Mr. Speaker, calls upon the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to provide for full funding of kindergarten to 400 hours per year per child. That's signed by individuals from the Edmonton area, from the Peace River area, Vauxhall, as well as from the Drayton Valley area. Thank you very much, sir.

THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Cypress-Medicine Hat. DR. L. TA YLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to present petitions on behalf of some of my constituents, and then on behalf of two other members. The petition from my constituents is signed by 344 residents of Bow Island, and they are asking that doctors' care and coverage be kept the same as they have been used to. I wish to present a petition on behalf of the Member for Taber- Warner. It is signed by 451 parishioners from various parishes in his constituency.

They are asking the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to deinsure abortions and ensure that community-based services exist. As well, I present a petition on behalf of the Minister of Advanced Education and Career Development. It is signed by 35 parishioners from the Blood Indian reserve, Immaculate Concep- tion parish, asking the Legislative Assembly to urge government to deinsure abortions and ensure that community-based services exist. Thank you.

2244 Alberta Hansard October 31, 1995 THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Grande Prairie-Wapiti. MR. JACQUES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to introduce, firstly, a petition on behalf of 33 parishioners from St. Mary's parish in Beaverlodge, which states that it urges the provincial government to 1. De-insure the performance of induced abortion under the Alberta Health Care Insurance Plan Act. 2. Use the community-based resour ces that are already in place that offer positive alternatives to abortion. Also, Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present two petitions on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. The first is from 97 residents in northwestern Alberta, again urging the government to 1. De-insure the performance of induced abortion under the Alberta Health Care Insurance Plan Act. 2. Use the community-based resour ces that are already in place that offer positive alternatives to abortion. The second petition, Mr. Speaker, is: We, the undersigned . . . petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta not to make sexual orientation a part of the Individual's Rights Protection Act.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for St. Albert. MR. BRACKO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for saving the best for the last. I'm tabling a petition from the parishioners of St. Albert Catholic parish urging the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Redwater. MR. N. TA YLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have the pleasure to present a petition on behalf of the little village of Bon Accord, that jewel of the northeast, urging the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Pincher Creek-Macleod. MR. COUTTS: It's reassuring to know that you have saved the best for the last, Mr. Speaker. I would like to present a petition on behalf of the Member for Banff-Cochrane. This petition is signed by 170 parishioners from St.

Mary's Catholic church in Cochrane, Sacred Heart Catholic church in Canmore, and St. Bernard Catholic church in Exshaw. They are urging the government to deinsure abortion and to use community-based resources to promote positive alternatives to abortion. I'd also like to present a petition on behalf of myself and my constituents, the Holy Cross church in Fort Macleod, 21 parishio- ners, who urge the government to deinsure the performance of induced abortions under the Alberta Health Care Insurance Act. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. 1:40 MRS. BURGENER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I'd like to table three petitions on behalf of the hon. Minister of Health, the MLA from Chinook: one from the parishioners of Our Lady of Grace church, the other from the parishioners of St. Anthony's, and the third from the parishioners of St. Paul's in Y oungstown, Alberta. These petitions also urge the government to 1. De-insure the performance of induced abortion under the Alberta Health Care Insurance Plan Act. 2. Use the community-based resour ces that are already in place that offer positive alternatives to abortion. Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to table a petition on behalf of my own constituents in Calgary-Currie, with the same motion. 1. De-insure the performance of induced abortion under the Alberta Health Care Insurance Plan Act. 2. Use the community-based resour ces that are already in place that offer positive alternatives to abortion. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. MR. SAPERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With your permission today I would like to table a petition signed by hundreds of Albertans.

These petitions were collected in Edmonton, Hinton, Morinville, Spruce Grove, and some other locations in the province. They petition the Legislative Assembly of Alberta to place a moratorium on any further reductions to the budget for health, and to immediately commence a process to evaluate the quality and effectiveness of health care services presently available. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Pincher Creek-Macleod. MR. COUTTS: I forgot one, Mr. Speaker. MR. COLLINGWOOD: He just wants to be last. MR. COUTTS: I did want to be last. That's exactly right. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of St.

Paul's parish in Brocket I'd like to present a petition with 18 signatures urging the government to deinsure the performance of induced abortions under the Alberta Health Care Insurance Act. Thank you. head: Reading and Receiving Petitions MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to have the petition that I presented yesterday read and received, please. THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. THE SPEAKER: The hon.

Opposition House Leader. MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, presented a petition yesterday and would ask that it be now read and received. THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Spruce Grove-Sturgeon- St. Albert. MRS. SOETAERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like the petition I presented yesterday regarding the banning of VLTs to be read and received.

October 31, 1995 Alberta Hansard 2245 THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd ask at this time that the two petitions I tabled yesterday be now read and received, please.

THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to rescind the changes implemented by the Alberta Health Drug Benefit List in the Alberta Family and Social Services Drug Benefit Supplement, effective November 1, 1993, and thereby reduce the expenditures imposed by this change. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. MRS.

HEWES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request that the petition I presented yesterday regarding the devastation caused by video lottery terminals be now read and received. THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. DR. NICOL: Mr. Speaker, I request that the petition I submitted yesterday concerning the elimination of VLTs be now read and received. Thank you.

THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Redwater. MR. N. TA YLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to ask that the petition I presented yesterday on behalf of 505 Redwater, Barrhead, and Westlock residents regarding the decimation of families by video lottery terminals now be read.

THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mayfield. MR. WHITE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to ask that the petition I tabled yesterday be read and received.

THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. MR. WICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would ask that the petition I tabled yesterday asking for the elimination of slot machines be now read and received.

THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Fort McMurray. MR. GERMAIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if I might ask that the petition I tabled yesterday in this Assembly now be read to the Assembly.

THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands- Beverly. MS HANSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would now request that the petition I presented yesterday regarding the elimination of video lottery terminals in Alberta be read and received.

THE CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Leduc. MR. KIRKLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request that the two petitions I presented yesterday be read and received this afternoon.

THE CLERK: We the undersigned residents of Alberta re-affirm our support for the five basic principles upon which Medicare was built: accessi- bility, universality, portability, comprehensiveness, and public administration; and urge the Government of Alberta to uphold these principles. We also oppose two-tier health care which moves us toward an American-style system. We also call for national standards for Medicare to be maintained.

We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the government to eliminate all Video Lottery Terminals in Alberta and thereby prevent the devastation they are causing to the lives of people, families and communities. head: Notices of Motions MRS. BLACK: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 34(2)(

a) I give notice that tomorrow I will be moving that written questions

2246 Alberta Hansard October 31, 1995 stand and retain their places on the Order Paper with the excep- tion of questions 249, 250, and 251. I also give notice that I will move that motions for returns stand and retain their places except for motions 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, and 276. MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, I wish to give oral notice of the following motion.

Be it resolved that when the Assembly adjourns . . . Whenever that may be. . . . to recess the fall sitting of the Third Session of the 23rd Legislature, it shall stand adjourned until the time and date for the spring sitting as determined by the Speaker after consultation with the Lieutenant Governor in Council. THE SPEAKER: The Minister of Transportation . . . [interjec- tions] DR. WEST: Mr. Speaker, the work will continue whether they think it or not.

I wish to give oral notice that tomorrow, Wednesday, Novem- ber 1, 1995, I intend to introduce Bill 52, the Gaming and Liquor Act, and we'll work thereon. head: Tabling Returns and Reports 1:50 MRS. MIROSH: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table five copies of a report entitled The Commercialization of Biotechnology in Alberta, which is authorized by the Alberta Science and Research Authority's biotechnology committee. The report is intended to encourage a discussion regarding how to maximize our province's biotechnology industry. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fish Creek. MRS. FORSYTH: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I would like to take the opportunity to table the statement of expenditures for the Alberta young offenders task force consultation with Albertans, which took place prior to the preparation of our report. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. MR. SAPERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With your permission I'd like to table today with the Legislative Assembly four copies of a six-page letter which was sent to the Premier and a copy to myself.

The letter says in part: The recent altercation between you and your Minister of Health . . . prompted me to ponder if you and your P.C. associates would ever get your act together regarding health reform. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Fort McMurray. MR. GERMAIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In an effort to help the government with open and accountable govern- ment I'm today filing four copies of a report entitled Team Alberta Mission: Final Report on the London, Middle East, and New Y ork trade mission.

Further, I'm filing four copies of another report also entitled Team Alberta Mission: Final Report of the London, Middle East, and New Y ork trade mission. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. MS LEIBOVICI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to table this afternoon copies of two reports. The first is the

summary investigation report by Alberta Labour of an occupational injury that occurred at Northgate Industries in March of this year. The second is an independent workpl ace audit that was done of Northgate Industries that was also conducted this year. Thank you. head: Introduction of Guests THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Stony Plain. MR. WOLOSHYN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to introduce to you and through you to the members some very important people. One is a prominent Albertan, prominent Edmontonian, former businessman of Spruce Grove, and also the father of our Premier: Mr. Phil Klein.

He is accompanied by Melanie and Sue Regier. I ask them to stand and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. THE SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I take a great deal of pleasure in introducing to you and to Members of the Legisla- tive Assembly Leanne Y ohemas. Leanne is a staff member with the Alberta Liberal caucus, has been since 1993, and before that a summer student, but that's not why I want her recognized today by the Members of the Legislative Assembly. She is also a dedicated, committed, and successful triathlete.

She has placed first overall twice this year for women in two important races. She ranked fifth in her age group at the Canadian nationals held in Fort McMurray earlier this year. She is an Alberta elite team member. She is a national triathlon team member for her age group. She's also been nominated for women's age group athlete of the year for 1995. What is especially significant and important is that on November 1 1, 1995, Leanne Y ohemas will compete in the world triathlon competition in Cancún, Mexico, on behalf of Alberta and on behalf of Canada.

I would like to recognize that and ask that the Members of the Legislative Assembly join me in doing so. Thank you very much. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Red Deer-South. MR. DOERKSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to intro- duce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly grades 5 and 6 students from the Word of Life school in Red Deer, which is an independent school. They are accompanied by their teacher Ms Carol Abt and parent helpers Marilyn Buettner, Colleen Taylor, Lynne Gardner, Pat Sanderson, and Sylvia Gill.

I would ask if they would rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. MRS. BLACK: Mr. Speaker, it's with pleasure that I introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly two mem- bers of the oil industry who are visiting our office today: Mr. Jim Tufford and Mr. Rick Watkins. They are from Gulf Canada Resources. They are in the members' gallery, and I would ask that they rise and be recognized by the Assembly. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar.

October 31, 1995 Alberta Hansard 2247 *This spelling could not be verified at the time of publication. MRS. HEWES: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. I'm privileged today to introduce to you and to Members of the Legislative Assembly a group of 21 students from the Gold Bar school in Gold Bar. They're accompanied by their teacher Ms Holroyd and by parents and helpers Gloria Pelech, Lorna Abramic, and Cherie Hydzik. I understand they're in the members' gallery. I'd ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Norwood. MR. BENIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my pleasure to introduce 1 1 students in grades 7 and 8 from the Progressive Academy school in my riding. The Progressive Academy is an independent, academically oriented school. They're accompanied by their teacher Ms Gaetz. I would ask that they all rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. MS LEIBOVICI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure this afternoon to introduce through you to the members of the Assembly Michael McGloin and his wife, Patricia Violette.* Michael was seriously injured this year at an Edmon- ton area jobsite as a result of that company's inadequate health and safety standards and the lack of follow-up by the Department of Labour to remedy those standards. If they would please rise and receive the warm welcome of the House. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Sherwood Park. MR. COLLINGWOOD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It's my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly this afternoon 50 students from the Father Kenneth Kearns school in Sherw ood Park. They're accompanied this afternoon by t eachers Mr. Jim Schiebelbein and Mrs. Melody Kostiuk; a student teacher who's also a g ood friend and golfer extraordinaire, Miss Fiona McManus; and parent helpers Mrs. Tammy Conacher, Mrs. Shirley Ahearn, and Mr. Walter Busko. They are seated in the public gallery, and I'd ask that they rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. head: Oral Question Period Health Services Restructuring MR.

MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, while making a speech paid for in part by major drug companies, Jane Fulton, the Deputy Minister of Health, stated, and I quote: government is now an ancillary player, a regulator, a funder, not a decision maker; the government no longer has the authority to say yes or no. Given that a good portion of the front bench has fled this House, my question is to the chair of the new standing policy committee on health. Does he agree with the deputy minister that government is just an ancillary player in h ealth care, and if so, what's the point of his new committee?

Speaker's Ruling Caucus Policy Committees THE SPEAKER: Order. The Chair believes the roles of the standing policy committees have been well defined in the House already, and it really isn't up to the chairmen to decide what their roles are. This would appear to the Chair that it should be answered by the Acting Minister of Health on behalf of the government. The hon. Minister of Labour. Health Services Restructuring (continued) MR. DA Y: Thank you for the ruling, Mr. Speaker, and I will be pleased to advise the minister of that particular question. MR. MITCHELL: I will say, Mr.

Speaker, that given that that committee probably has absolutely no mandate and the chairman has no vision, it's understandable that he wouldn't be able to answer the question. To somebody over there who's acting: now that the government has abdicated authority over health care, how exactly will it establish consistent standards for health care across this province so we don't end up with 17 different health care systems across this province? MR. DA Y: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to that question is lengthy because of the number of initiatives that are going on in terms of standard setting, so I won't risk being ruled out of order. I will advise the Minister of Health, who is one of a very few who – I can't comment on absences here, but the member did make a reference to the front bench, most of whom are here today. The Minister of Health will be happy to send to the opposition leader an extensive report of the variety of initiatives related to standard setting that are going on in the province. 2:00 MR.

MITCHELL: Will the acting deputy to the acting deputy to the acting deputy Premier tell the Assembly why the government has abdicated its responsibility for the expenditure of no less than 2 and one-half billion dollars on health care to nonelected regional health authorities that are not in any way accountable to the communities they serve? MR. DA Y: Well, the opposition leader is really struggling with questions today. Again, Mr. Speaker, the list is very extensive in terms of the initiatives being taken by a wide variety of RHAs in terms of how they are getting information to people.

There always is the necessity to improve and co-ordinate communication. That message is going from this government to the RHAs, and that'll continue. Catholic School System MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education is attacking the foundations of Catholic education in this province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He's here. MR. MITCHELL: But he's here. He is consciously trying to reverse critical provisions extended to Catholic education in the 1988 School Act. [interjections] MR. HENRY: The Provincial Treasurer's laughing. He thinks it's funny. Speaker's Ruling Decorum THE SPEAKER: Order. [interjections] Order.

It can't be because of anything he heard so far in relation to that question,

2248 Alberta Hansard October 31, 1995 with the noise that's emanating from the Leader of the Opposi- tion's supporters over there. MRS. ABDURAHMAN: Y ou'd think health care and education . . . THE SPEAKER: Order, hon. Member for Clover Bar-Fort Saskatchewan. Y ou don't have the floor. The hon. Leader of the Opposition has the floor for the second main question. MR. MITCHELL: Half a million Catholics aren't laughing about this, Mr. Treasurer. Catholic School System (continued) MR.

MITCHELL: In doing this, in undermining and reversing provisions extended to Catholic education in his 1988 School Act, the Minister of Education is undermining the essence of Catholic education as described by the president of the Alberta Catholic School Trustees' Association: “Our schools are to be the training ground and models of the Catholic faith community.” To the Minister of Education: is he punishing Catholics for having had the courage to stand up to the minister's previous attempts to undermine Catholic education in this province? MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. leader's introduction to this question is dead wrong. He is completely inaccurate. The Catholic separate school system of this province is operating well today. They are better funded, more equitably funded than they ever have been before. They are also recognized in the School Act during the term of this minister, and that legislation was changed in that regard to recognize the two dimensions of the public school system in this province, the public and the separate. Mr. Speaker, there has been no attack. There's been no diminishing of the value of Catholic education in this province.

The premise of his question is wrong. There has been no attack on that system. MR. MITCHELL: Once the minister has limited the Catholic school system to the Lord's Prayer and an optional one-half hour religious instruction at the end of the day, will he please explain what exactly is going to be left to make it Catholic education? MR. JONSON: This minister has quite clearly indicated that there is respect of this government and of this minister for the atmo- sphere and focus of Catholic schools in this province, Mr. Speaker.

What the hon. member across the way is talking about here – and I just wonder what the Liberal position is on this – is that, yes, recently I wrote a letter to the president of the Alberta Catholic School Trustees' Association in which I outlined the constitutional provisions which were put in place in 1905, when the Northwest Territories joined Confederation, and which have been respected by this government and by this minister ever since. The president of the ACSTA is not above that law. The Leader of the Opposition is not above that law.

We certainly don't think we are either, and we're interpreting it correctly. MR. MITCHELL: The minister is prepared to forget the develop- ment of 90 years of Catholic education in this province, Mr. Speaker. [interjections] THE SPEAKER: Order. [interjections] Order. Supplemental question without

preamble. MR. MITCHELL: Will the minister make a commitment, an unequivocal commitment here and now that his government will not move to merge public and separate school boards into one system in this province? MR. JONSON: There never was, there is not, and there never will be any intention of this government to violate the foundation of the separate and public school systems in this particular province. To even raise the issue here, Mr. Speaker, is ridicu- lous. I think he ran out of questions, so he went reaching.

We are quite prepared to indicate our support to respecting the constitutional provisions in the existence of these two systems. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, given that a letter has been referred to and that it might be helpful to members of the Assembly to read it, particularly those across the way, I would like to table five copies of the letter that I sent to the president of the Alberta Catholic School Trustees' Association. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-North West. Trade Missions MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier's unannounced and unscheduled stop at the offices of Multi-Corp in Hong Kong and his subsequent promotion of this company raises some questions about trade missions and the purpose of trade missions by this government. My questions today are to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. When he boasted of this corporation, he talked about drawing the attention of the media to companies like Multi-Corp. Is it the policy of the government to use these trade missions to promote the fortunes and stocks of corporations like Multi-Corp? THE SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. MR. SMITH: Thank you. MR. MITCHELL: How do you get on that list? MR. SMITH: By being a businessman. In fact, Mr. Speaker, that's exactly what we're trying to do. We're trying to take the companies that add to the Alberta advantage, that take advantage of the environment created by this government, and build international trade and subsequent invest- ment in this province. MR. BRUSEKER: I appreciate the answer. My supplementary question: is it the department's policy, then, to

schedule stops for the Premier at taxpayers' expense to visit corporations like this, in which the Premier's brother-in-law owns a quarter of a million shares worth $2 million? MR. SMITH: Well, Mr. Speaker, we're back onto the topic of scheduling unscheduled stops. In fact we will make unscheduled stops. We will make scheduled stops. We will do whatever we can in this department to promote trade development and to promote investment in this province.

October 31, 1995 Alberta Hansard 2249 2:10 THE SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My final supple- mental to the same minister: so when the scheduled stop at the annual general meeting of Multi-Corp was introduced by the . . . Speaker's Ruling Sub Judice Rule THE SPEAKER: Order. Order please. The hon. member originally cloaked this question as being generic in terms. The Chair wants to remind the hon. member that the Chair has received notice from the Ethics Commissioner that he is conduct- ing an investigation into the role of the Premier with regard to Multi-Corp Inc.

The rules are clear that when an investigation by the Ethics Commissioner is on, there shouldn't be questions asked about that company. Now, if the hon. member has a question. Trade Missions (continued) MR. BRUSEKER: Well, then, I'll rephrase the question, Mr. Speaker. Is it the policy of the government to direct the Premier to attend annual general meetings of corporations like the one in question? Because he did. MR. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know how many times I have to go on record to say that the policy of this department is to move towards trade development and move towards garnering investment in this province. In fact, despite in many cases loud efforts by the opposition, faxes and other type of information, following people on trade missions, we still believe that there is an ability for investment to occur in Alberta and for trade to occur in Alberta. With the support of this government we'll continue to do that. THE SPEAKER: The Member for Lethbridge-West. Career Development Centres MR. DUNFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question today is to the Minister of Advanced Education and Career Develop- ment. While we hear much of the waste generated by different levels of government duplicating similar services and programs, I know that in Lethbridge and a few other urban centres the Alberta government and the federal government have been establishing centres in career development and training. These are pilot projects to show that sharing resources and staff can be very efficient and effective. My question to the minister: will the minister explain the current status of this project? THE SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Advanced Education and Career Development. MR. ADY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Essentially we have projects by which our two provincial departments, Advanced Education and Career Development and Family and Social Services, and the federal Department of Human Resource Development are collocating offices in Calgary and Lethbridge and Edmonton. These offices are designed to improve labour market and income support services to Albertans through a one- window approach. The concept is to access training and employ- ment and income assistance services.

These initiatives grew out of a successful experience we had in Athabasca at that regional career service in 1991, where a collocation of services proved to be very successful and a beneficial exercise. These new centres will be ready for service next spring for those who require those services. THE SPEAKER: Supplemental question. MR. DUNFORD: Thank you. To the same minister. I wonder if he might advise what other provincial and federal partnerships might currently be under way or planned for the near future. MR. ADY: Mr.

Speaker, the two levels of government believe that by merging income support and labour market services, efficiencies will be gained through these initiatives and effective- ness for Alberta clients will be increased. Although the project is just at its beginning stage, I'm confident that we will see this initiative have a positive impact not only on the clients that we serve by providing them with a whole array of government services and a one-window setting but also on the taxpayers, because we will have made major progress in reducing duplication and overlap in government bureaucracies in Alberta.

THE SPEAKER: Final supplemental? Trade Mission to Asia MR. GERMAIN: Mr. Speaker, this summer Hollywood released its blockbuster movie called Pulp Fiction. Not to be outdone, the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism released his report on the Asian trade mission of the Premier. Despite the fact that the minister read and authorized this report for release, it contained 48 exaggerations and overstatements. My question, then, to the government through that minister is: was that release a deliberate attempt to overstate the success of the mission or mere negligence? MR. SMITH: No, Mr. Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: Supplemental question. [interjections] Supple- mental question. [interjections] Would the hon. member's colleagues please give him a chance to ask his supplemental question? MR. GERMAIN: In light of that last answer, Mr. Speaker, will the minister, then, tell us why he corrected those errors by issuing a whole new final report as opposed to putting out an admission of the errors? MR. SMITH: The errors were openly admitted to, Mr. Speaker, and in fact we just took the correct course of action and issued the revised version that accurately reflected what in fact occurred. MR. GERMAIN: Mr.

Speaker, in light of that last answer I wonder if the minister could tell us why the hosting tab on this trip went from $977 to $3,856.25 without changing the bottom line of the trip by a penny. MR. SMITH: No. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Vegreville-Viking.

2250 Alberta Hansard October 31, 1995 Crow Benefit MR. STELMACH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the last federal budget the government of Canada announced the cancellation of the Western Grain Transportation Act. On August 1, 1995, the historic subsidy known as the Crow rate, paid to the railways to subsidize the movement of prairie grain to the east and west, was eliminated. In the announced repeal of the WGTA the federal government made provisions for a one-time payout of $1.6 billion to prairie landowners as compensation, a far cry from the $8 billion that was on the table a few years before that.

Would the minister explain to the Assembly what Alberta farmers need to do to take full advantage of this program? THE SPEAKER: The Minister of Agriculture, Food, and Rural Development. MR. PASZKOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you to the hon. Member for Vegreville-Vik ing. Indeed this is a very timely question. Even though the Liberals aren't interested, today is the cut-off day for the application for this particular program.

This, as far as agriculture is concerned, is a very, very important part of their operations. 2:20 For years and years and years the Crow benefit was used to subsidize product movement to export position. As of the spring budget the hon. member has correctly identified that there was to be a complete payout that indeed would remove any further subsidy to the transportation of grain for exports. Today is the cutoff day. Today is the last day. Originally September 30 was to be the last day.

This was extended to October 31 by the federal minister because of late harvest, and I would urge all farmers to sit down immediately and bring forward their applica- tions if they have not yet done so. MR. STELMACH: Mr. Speaker, what actions are being taken to ensure that farmers who have rotated forage and grain will be paid what they are entitled to? MR. PASZKOWSKI: Alberta produces 51 percent of all forage that's produced in Canada. Unfortunately, under this program there was no accommodation made for the payout of forages.

Recognizing this and recognizing the importance that forage plays in the ongoing rotation within the agricultural community of Alberta, the Alberta government has lobbied the federal govern- ment very strongly to see that there is some accommodation made for the payout of forages. We have been locked in the process because the federal government has indicated that this should be part of the safety net program. We have had ongoing discussions, and it is our hope, Mr.

Speaker, that indeed we're going to be able to come forward with a process that will allow for some sort of payment to be made for forage production in Alberta. THE SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR. STELMACH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the interests of fairness what is the minister of agriculture's plan to compensate Alberta farmers for the loss of the Crow benefit? [interjections] MR.

PASZKOWSKI: Well, it's interesting why the Liberals aren't paying attention to some of this, because it does involve agriculture, a clear indication that there is no interest and a clear indication that there is no support whatsoever for agriculture. I think that's very, very evident, and it's unfortunate. I'm sure the farmers of Alberta will recognize that. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, I think it's important to recognize . . . MR. N. TA YLOR: He's been studying the question for a week, so give him a chance. Give him a chance. It's taken him a week to learn the answer. THE SPEAKER: Please give him a chance. MR.

PASZKOWSKI: Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, it'll be another three months before the hon. Member for Redwater knows the answer. A week isn't sufficient for him. Mr. Speaker, this is somethin g of great importance to the agricultural community, and it's unfortunate that we have people taking this so lightly. Indeed, agriculture is our future and not our past, and perhaps you should recognize that. We as a government are not taking a direct involvement, because we as a government are no longer in the business of being in business. We as a government are simply going to be facilitat- ing.

With the new mode that's happening because of the removal of the Crow benefit, processing, jobs, value added will be happening right here in the province of Alberta, and it's time that people recognized that. There's a savings alone of 50 cents a bushel on average in Alberta by doing that value adding right here in this province, not to men tion the additional jobs and the revenue from the value added that comes forward.

It is, indeed, our strong position to continue to work with the farmers to see that the value added, that the final processing is done right here in the province of Alberta and we as Albertans are benefactors of this. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. Work Site Safety MS LEIBOVICI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Michael McGloin, whom I introduced earlier, was injured this year on a jobsite that manufactures portable trailers. He suffered second and third degree burns to his hands, first and second degree burns to his neck, and second degree burns to his ears.

Despite two previous complaints to occupational hea lth and safety prior to Mr. McGloin's accident, no action was taken. After his accident, when an independent safety audit was finally conducted, it was discovered that on average 95 percent of the company's safety procedures and equipment standards were unacceptable. This is appalling, especially as this company continues to operate. Mr.

McGloin has requested that I ask the Minister of Labour why the department of occupational health and safety has failed him and other injured workers regarding the enforcement of occupational health and safety regulations in this province. MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, I don't often give credit to the Edmon- ton Journal, but in this particular case, with the story that was published in the Journal, from which the member got some of her information, there was an exte nsive list showing the decline in injury rates over the last few years.

There was a comment by a professor of occupational health and safety who observed that the approach being taken by occupational health and safety, which is one in which you work as far as possible at least in co-ordination and at times somewhat forced co-operation with industry to

October 31, 1995 Alberta Hansard 2251 develop standards, yields better results and more protection for workers than strictly on the prosecution side. MR. MITCHELL: What about what happened to that individual? MR. DA Y: I think, Mr. Speaker, we need to address also a further report of occupational health and safety which said in fact . . . MR. MITCHELL: All the reports won't help him. MR. DA Y: Y ou know, the Leader of the Opposition is obviously nervous about the upcoming convention he's facing this weekend. If he would be quiet for a few minutes, we'd be able to get some information out.

We have an injured worker here today who this means something to, and the leader of the Liberals keeps shriek- ing, and I can't hardly communicate the facts here. In fact, Mr. Speaker, the report indicates clearly that the two previous investigations by occupational health and safety, one specifically on I believe July 6, 1994, had nothing to do with this particular incident at all or the particular tank which was in- volved.

However, the occupational health and safety officer who did leave a report for follow-up for that particular company did not follow up to see if in fact the procedures that he had observed, not related to this accident, were going to be corrected. In fact we have taken steps internally to deal with that particular over- looking of duties by an occupational health and safety officer, although that was not related to this particular incident. THE SPEAKER: Supplemental question. MS LEIBOVICI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm wondering if the minister can explain why employers in this province are no longer held accountable for injuries that occur at their work sites. With five major safety regulations being infracted in this particular incident, the employer has not had one single fine or penalization against him. MR. DA Y: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm somewhat concerned with the approach here because overall the statistics are very clear that industry associations and employers in general are being very aggressive about health and safety. In fact they are finding the results from that through a decline in injury rates. MR.

HENRY: Answer the question. MR. DA Y: That guy should listen to his mother-in-law and follow her example of good order in the Assembly. Mr. Speaker, what continues to happen is that overall there has been great improvement in industries and in companies, but here we have a situation, as I've already said, one incident in which unfortunately procedures were not followed. A report indicates that procedures were not followed by the company and by the worker, and we had a very unfortunate incident. I think both worker and company are thankful today that the worker in fact is even alive. Mr.

Speaker, I think it is unfair to take one incident and then use the phrase the member did: all employers. THE SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MS LEIBOVICI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Isn't it time that the minister recognizes that the Safety Codes Act, the minister's attempt at deregulation and privatization of safety and health regulations in this province, is not working and is jeopardizing the health of workers in this province? MR. DA Y: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, if the member would just turn to the Edmonton Journal research, if she doesn't believe mine, overall health and safety is improving in this province.

As I've said, the OHS report showed that there were things that were overlooked by the worker in bringing a explosiveproof halogen lamp into a nonventilated tank. There were also oversights by the company in terms of not having clear procedures. That has been very aggressively followed up. I might add, for the purpose of total accuracy and truthfulness in this Assembly – the Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark filed an audit report here in the Assembly today, and I would suggest that when this is done, so that we are not misled, the entire report be filed. There were a number of positives in this report.

Every second page from this report is missing. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly- Belmont. 2:30 Fine Collection MR. Y ANKOWSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The recent Auditor General's report states that the Department of Justice's procedures for collecting fines imposed on out-of-province residents are ineffective. The Auditor General's report also indicates that a number of fines imposed on young offenders are not collected. The Auditor General in fact was indirectly hinting that the whole fines collection system needs an overhaul. My questions are all to the hon. Minister of Justice.

Would the minister advise this Assembly what action he is planning for collecting fines imposed on out-of-province residents? THE SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. EV ANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is rather difficult at times to collect out-of-province fines. We can put restrictions on services available, on motor vehicles for people who live in this province when they're fined. We can't do that at the present for those who are fined from outside of the province of Alberta.

What I would like to do, certainly, is work with other provinces to have a uniform database and reciprocal enforcement of judgments and fines so that if so meone is fined in this province and is picked up in another jurisdiction, that fine will be enforced and reciprocally the same if people are here in our province. It also must be remembered, Mr. Speaker, that oftentimes these fines are rather low in sum, and we have to look at the cost- benefit analysis of expending public funds going after an individ- ual in another jurisdiction.

So I think the most practical way to deal with it, really, is to have a reciprocal agreement with other provinces and territories, and we're certainly working on that. THE SPEAKER: Supplemental question. MR. Y ANKOWSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Minister, what are you going to do regarding collecting more fines imposed on young offenders?

2252 Alberta Hansard October 31, 1995 MR. EV ANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, in terms of young offenders I think the hon. member would recognize that currently under the Y oung Offenders Act we're not allowed to pass on the names of young offenders who have been convicted, and that's something that I think should be dealt with and should be amended in the federal legislation. That'll give us more authority to act.

I think it's probably pretty obvious as well that oftentimes young offenders don't have too many resources available to them, so proceeding against them to try to collect a fine is not always going to be successful.

I would also point out to hon. members that the young offenders task force made some recommendations about parental account- ability and said that if there's evidence before a court that parents have not been carrying out th eir respons ibilities in terms of dealing with their young people and giving them the kinds of discipline that we would normally associate with a parent/child relationship, then there should be an opportunity to make those parents responsible in the sense of restitution and in terms of payment of fine, and I think that's very positive as well. THE SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR.

Y ANKOWSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister please tell this Assembly if he indeed intends to revamp his system, obtain a new system for fines collection? MR. EV ANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, my department has reviewed carefully the Auditor General's recommendations, and we've set up a task force to look at all of the aspects of our fines collection. Quite frankly, there was a recommendation that perhaps we could set up a brand-new system.

Because of limited resources in the department and the focuses that we have, we're looking instead at trying to improve the existing system and doing it in a cost- effective manner. If that's not successful, then we'll certainly be looking at a new and improved system. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Crown Prosecutors MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Albertans concerned about public safety, better treatment of crime victims, and also family violence understand that the job of the Crown prosecutor is absolutely critical, but many of our Crown prosecutors have seen their workloads increase up to 300 percent. They no longer have adequate time to prepare court cases, and to add insult to injury, our prosecutors are the lowest paid prosecutors in Canada. The minister talks about being tough on crime, but his inaction tells us much more than his rhetoric. My question is to the hon. Minister of Justice.

How does the minister expect his Crown prosecutors to combat crime in the courtroom when he refuses to give them the tools they need to do the job? MR. EV ANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I recently met in Red Deer with our Crown prosecutors in central Alberta to talk about the practical concerns that these hardworking people have about how they can deal with caseloads, how they can utilize technology more effectively so that they will be able to concentrate their efforts on the job before them. The hon. member opposite has made a good point.

We are losing some very, very competent, well-trained, and in my humble opinion some of the best prosecutors in Canada from our depart- ment. They are going out into the private sector. Now, that's happening in other areas of government as well, and it does happen on a regular basis with our Crown prosecutors, who do go into private practice.

I undertook when I met with our prosecutors to do everything within the budget constraints that we're operating in, when we're talking about reducing the number of courtrooms that we have, taking care of utilization issues to try to make sure that we are as efficient as possible, to make their lot better. I do agree with the hon. member that having competent, well-paid, well-remunerated, and dedicated people in the courtrooms to look after criminal prosecutions is extremely important to the system. MR. DICKSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, my supplemental question to the minister would be this.

What specifically is this minister planning on doing to ensure that we don't have underpaid, inexperienced prosecutors being eaten up and spit out by senior, highly paid defence counsel? MR. EV ANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't have the statistics in front of me today, but I would put our prosecutors up against prosecutors anywhere in Canada in terms of their success rate in getting after criminal activity when they get into a courtroom, and that's going to remain.

Serious and violent crime is one of the focuses of this depart- ment, and certainly reduction in criminal activity is paramount in our three-year business plan and in our mission and vision about creating safer communities in this province. So we are prepared to analyze on an ongoing basis the budget that's allocated to prosecutors and again, as I mentioned earlier, to attempt to upgrade our technology as quickly as possible so that our prosecu- tors can take advantage of that technological improvement. THE SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR. DICKSON: Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

While the minister is looking at upgrading his equipment, would he tell us specifically how he plans to ensure that Crown prosecutors in Calgary, who already have the highest caseloads in the province, deal with what's been a significant haemorrhage of some of the most senior Crown counsel? [interjections] MR. EV ANS: They're certainly noisy across there today, Mr. Speaker. Must be a full moon or something. DR. WEST: Halloween. MR. EV ANS: Good comment. It is Halloween. Mr. Speaker, what we are trying to do in Calgary is no different than what we're trying to do across the province.

We've had a reduction in the number of courthouses, we've had a reduction in the number of Provincial Court judges, and we've had a reduction in the number of Crown prosecutors. We're analyzing that on an ongoing basis to try to deal with the pressure points and make sure that the people who are delivering the service to us are not overworked, are paid at a reasonable rate, and are able to get the kinds of re sults that society in this great province of Alberta demands. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lesser Slave Lake. 2:40 Access by Noncustodial Parents MS CALAHASEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It's the Minister of Justice's day today. All my questions are to the Minister of

October 31, 1995 Alberta Hansard 2253 Justice. Many Albertans honour the terms of their child mainte- nance agreements faithfully every month, yet many of these noncustodial parents are denied access to the children they love and support. If the province of Alberta can take steps to enforce maintenance arrangements, what actions can be taken to ensure the rights of noncustodial parents in upholding the terms of access agreements? THE SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. EV ANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, firstly, we can make every effort to ensure that parents who have decided they are not going to continue living in the same household recognize, when they have children, the great negative impact that can occur with respect to those children if they don't come to a consensus on the best interests of the children. I don't think that's happen- ing right now. There are a number of initiatives that are trying to analyze how we can deal with this more productively.

I myself have suggested that we consider a mandatory three- or four-hour term of dispute resolution with competent individuals sitting down with both parents and trying to make them focus not on their own issues, not on their emotions but rather on the impact on their children. I know that the Alberta law reform commission is looking at this issue. As I've stated earlier in the House, there is a federal, provincial, and territorial task force that is looking at this, and the Women's Secretariat is looking at it as well. MS CALAHASEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, knowing that these parents that are denied access don't have any recourse, instead of doing that kind of a mandatory item, is there anything else we can do to ensure that these parents can have access? MR. EV ANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it's important to speed up the process of getting back into court if there is a lack of following of a court order relative to access. Now, it's a little more complicated than a matter dealing with maintenance, because with maintenance it's very easy to check into a bank account and see whether a payment has been made.

Access is a little more subjective, and obviously there are two sides to every story. I think it's important, hon. member, that what we do is try to speed up the process so that those parents who have been denied access or allege that they've been denied access pursuant to a court order have easy access back into court and that judges are there ready, willing, and able to listen to the applications and to make the appropriate findings on the facts given. THE SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MS CALAHASEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Recognizing that the legal process is expensive, intimidating, and often ineffective in civil matters, can the minister give us any indication of steps he is prepared to take to address the concern of these children and their parents to remedy this situation? MR. EV ANS: I think that the member is really just asking for clarification of what we are going to do. Now, there has been a very good and positive private member's Bill that actually passed as a government Bill in this House back in 1993 that had as its premise a quicker and more effective way of getting back into the court.

It also dealt with mediation to try to ensure that the parties did not just focus on themselves and the animosity that they felt for each other but rather on what the implications are of their conduct. I would certainly welcome the hon. member making any other suggestions as to ways of dealing with this. The federal task force has put out a paper and is asking for input on that paper. Certainly, hon. member, you'll have an opportunity to input into that. As I think I said last w eek in this House, Mr.

Speaker, I met with over 75 concerned parents during the summertime to try to get some suggestions from them as well. These are people who've been impacted by the process. We'd like to hear back from them. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Whitemud. Treasury Branches DR. PERCY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Norman Green owes the Treasury Branches at least $150 million, probably closer to $180 million. Scrutiny of the financial statements of the Dallas Stars shows that on those financial statements, the Alberta Treasury Branches are listed as being owed $39 million.

This is the Dallas Stars, which were the Minnesota North Stars, which are an American hockey team. Furthermore, over and above the $39 million to the Alberta Treasury Branches there's $10 million owing to the Pittsburgh Penguins, $6.4 million owed to the National Hockey League, and miscellaneous other debt. My first question is to the Provincial Treasurer. What in God's name are the Alberta Treasury Branches doing lending money to an American hockey team, up to 40 million bucks? What are we doing there? MR. DINNING: Mr.

Speaker, some 57 years ago when William Aberhart was the Premier of Alberta, he moved a motion in this Assembly creating the Alberta Treasury Branches. Since that day it's been a practice of the Provincial Treasurer of the day not to discuss on the floor of the Assembly or anywhere in a public forum or anywhere at all the matters that were privileged information between a client of the Treasury Branches and Treasury Branches. I as the Provincial Treasurer of Alberta will not break that custom.

I don't think it is appropriate that I would talk about the financial relationship between Treasury Branches and one of its clients. It's a practice that I follow, and I know, sir, that you would support me in not breaking that practice. DR. PERCY: Mr. Speaker, the acting superintendent of the Alberta Treasury Branches reports to that minister, and in terms of ministerial accountability that minister is responsible. We want to close the barn door before the horses escape.

My question again is: exactly what is that minister going to do to ensure that Alberta taxpayers don't end up losing $40 million backstopping an American hockey team? MR. DINNING: Well, Mr. Speaker, not speaking specifically about a client of the Treasury Branches – I would not want to do that, to break that tradition, break that custom, because I don't think it's appropriate. Treasury Branches is in the business of taking deposits from Albertans and investing them so that depositors will get a return on their money.

At the same time, it's also in the business of loaning money to its customers, and it's in the practice of hopefully getting that money back with interest. Clearly, if banking were a business where there was a hundred percent guarantee of getting your money back, even the hon.

2254 Alberta Hansard October 31, 1995 member would probably set up his own bank. He has not. He's chosen, probably quite wisely, not to do so. In this case, with the Treasury Branches being the ninth largest financial institution in the country, Mr. Speaker, one of its jobs of course is to make sure that it gets its money back. One of the things I have to rely on is that the Auditor General reviews the Treasury Branches' financial statements.

If there is some doubt that that money will not be repaid, there is adequate and proper provision on the accounts, in the financial statements of Treasury Branches, to reflect that. I have been advised by the Auditor General personally but as well when he signs the opinion on his financial statements in here that adequate provision has been made in the event that any money may not be paid back to Treasury Branches. DR. PERCY: Mr. Speaker, why are there two sets of rules?

As I have constituents, I know people in Calgary who are having their homes sold because they owe $30, 000 to the Treasury Branches, and they're being sold under auction. Y et Norm Green can stick it to the Alberta Treasury Branches for $150 million and walk away laughing. Why are there two sets of rules? MR. DINNING: There are not two sets of rules, Mr. Speaker. head: Members' Statements THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. 2:50 School Fees MR. HENRY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Some years ago I had the fortune to spend some time in the Third World, and I visited a primary school just outside Lusaka, the capital city of Zambia. When the school operators told me that education was free in their country, I wondered why I did see countless children who were clearly not attending school. While there were no tuition fees, each family was res ponsible for providing a pre- scribed desk worth 90 kwacha and a uniform worth another 40, about two months' salary for the average worker. Some public education. So, now, what about Alberta today?

Is our public education system really fully publicly funded? Imagine a single parent raising two children by earning about $9 per hour, which is a lot more than a lot of people make in this province. After buying school clothes, winter coats, inside and outside shoes, that parent could easily face such fees as $720 for transportation, a $30 mailing fee, a $120 materials fee, $80 for field trips, a $14 locker rental, $25 for arts and crafts.

In addition, if the children, like most, fully want to participate, the fees for two children for band would be about $400, home ec or industrial arts, another $75, and outdoor education, another $55. So before buying any school supplies or paper or pencils, this parent could face a bill of over $1,500 for the school year. That's 10 percent of this person's income before taxes, assuming they don't have an ECS child with additional fees of up to 400 dollars plus per year. I ask: what's the difference between what I saw in the Third World country and Alberta today?

Both profess to support public education, yet both have significant user fees for participation in that system. This government's gone too far in off-loading the cost of education onto the backs of parents regardless of their personal income. Full access to public education should not mean full access if your parents can afford to pay $1,500 for the year. We're moving fast to a widening gap between haves and have-nots in this province, and the responsibility for this lies with the Premier, with his ministers, and with every member of this government. Thank you. Canadian Unity MR.

LANGEVIN: M. le Président de l'Assemblée, le Canada, c'est mon pays; c'est ma patrie. Il s'étend d'une mer à l'autre, avec ses belles montagnes et ses beaux lacs, with its beautiful forests and wonderful prairies, avec le grand nord et ses océans. Mais mon pays, c'est encore plus. It is its people, son peuple, all those who live within its boundaries, the two founding nations and all the immigrants who came from all over the world. It has a colourful history. It is the best country in the world, the greatest country. Let us all commit ourselves to preserving it.

The Canadian federation was formed in the years leading up to 1867. A Constitution was adopted, and it served us well for many, many years. Le pays s'est agrandi et s'est épanoui. We celebrated our centennial with pride, avec honneur et dignité, avec joie et fierté, fier d'être Canadien, proud to be Albertans, fier d'être Québécois et Québécoises. But during the last 30 years or so discontent set in. Le Québec demandait d'être reconnu comme peuple distinct. L'Alberta était très offensée par le fameux NEP, the national energy program, and most Canadians were totally opposed to the GST.

All provinces are still having areas of concern. The federal system is no longer working. Three attempts were made to resolve the differences and address the concerns: first, the patriation of the Constitution in 1982, then Meech Lake, and the Charlottetown accord. All attempts failed miserably. They failed because the feds had a vested interest in protecting their central power. Hier le peuple de la Belle Province a voté pour rester avec nous, mais c'est clair qu'il faut un changement. Le message est fort. Let us try a new avenue and ask the feds to step aside this time.

We should say: “Please, do not phone us; we will call you.” I am convinced that the provinces and the territories can negotiate a new deal, like they did in 1867, without the presence of the feds. With a renewed federalism, decentralization of power, and recognition of the provinces, we would be on the road to success again. Vive le Canada. Vive les Canadiens et les Canadiennes. Vive le plus beau pays du monde. Vive la différence. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Avonmore. Schoolteachers MR. ZWOZDESKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Alberta educators comprise a very special group of professionals charged with the very serious responsibility of helping to diagnose and meet the learning needs of our young people. Teachers work tirelessly to help shape and prepare our youth for the many challenges that await them in the real world. Teachers spend an enormous amount of time in this pursuit. In fact, during an average workweek teachers can spend more time with our children than do some parents. In many instances teachers are even viewed as mother and/or father figures by some students.

Teachers are indeed very influential role models in the classroom as well as in the community at large. Their work never ends at 3:30, nor are they exempt from evening work or from work on weekends. Countless hours are spent privately tutoring students in need of extra assistance or helping students with

October 31, 1995 Alberta Hansard 2255 personal problems or leading extracurricular activities in the arts, sports, or vocational areas, for example. Y et as higher and higher expectations are being thrust upon teachers, we see lower and lower commitments from this govern- ment toward education. How can teachers be expected to meet those expectations and to maintain the high standards they set for themselves and for their students when in many instances this government is operating against them?

In spite of ever increasing challenges, such as overcrowded classrooms, unacceptably high student/teacher ratios, and stepped-up demands to do things like fund-raising, Alberta teachers continue to do their excellent work to educate our youth to become responsible learners, informed adults, and an enlightened public overall. We owe an immeasurable debt of gratitude to those who dedicate themselves daily to these challenges, the outcome of which so dramatically impacts our future as a society. As legislators let us be very careful to never allow the role or importance of teachers in this province to be demeaned.

Let us not try and make teachers into salespeople and fund-raisers. Their time is far better spent teaching our most precious resource, our students. Mr. Speaker, teachers are trying to teach. Let's let them teach, that students may learn, that we as a society may truly benefit overall from their collective endeavours. As a former school- teacher I, along with many of my colleagues on this side of the House who are also former school teachers, salute the dedication and commitment to educational excellence exhibited by our Alberta teachers. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon.

Opposition House Leader has indi- cated, along with the hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark and the hon. Member for Red Deer-South, that there are points of order. The hon. Opposition House Leader. Point of Order Questions outside Government Responsibility MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My point of order deals with the question raised by the Member for Vermilion- Viking, and in particular I'd like to cite Beauchesne 409(6). The question that was directed at that time was directed to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development.

The citation that I'm raising is: “A question must be within the administrative competence of the Government.” Now, using the words “compe- tence” and “government” in the same sentence is kind of an oxymoron, like jumbo shrimp. In this particular case the question asked about the issue of a federal program and what farmers in Alberta could do to access this federal program. Clearly the provincial minister of agriculture has no indication or has no knowledge of what can be done about a federal program.

Therefore, in my opinion both the original question and the first supplementary question should indeed have been ruled out of order. I'd also like to draw the Speaker's attention to Beauchesne 410(7): “Brevity both in questions and answers [should be] of great importance.” The minister could use the time in ministerial statements for standing up and talking about value added and so on, which had absolutely nothing to do with the topic of accessing a federal program, which was a question that was out of order.

So we had a long answer to an inappropriate question that consumed more time in the House than it should have. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Vegreville-Viking on the point of order. 3:00 MR. STELMACH: Mr. Speaker, first of all, the hon. Opposition House Leader referred to Vermilion-Viking. I don't believe there's a member in the House that represents Vermilion-Viking. In response to the hon.

Opposition House Leader's point of order, there is a very strong relationship between the provincial minister of agriculture and the federal minister of agriculture in terms of sponsoring and setting policy in terms of a lot of these programs. One of them was the elimination of the WGTA, and part of the question was: what happened to the $8 billion that was on the table in the early '90s, and how was it arbitrarily, unilater- ally reduced to $1.6 billion? That's all we want to know. Where is it? THE SPEAKER: When the Chair heard the question – and the hon.

Opposition House Leader is correct that it is inappropriate to ask questions where another jurisdiction has competence – the Chair thought that the hon. member was also asking about the response of the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Develop- ment to the cancellation of that program, what the provincial response would be, and in that sense the question was in order. I would probably agree with the hon. member that it was sort of crafted in very wide terms, and the Chair would remind all hon. members that they should keep their questions focused in the area where there is governmental accountability.

The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. Point of Order Imputing Motives MS LEIBOVICI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Under 23(

h) and (

i) I'd like to address the comments that the Minister of Labour made on the questions that I had asked him. I think that the minister, caught up in the spirit of the moment, alleged that I deliberately left out every second page of a report and that on every second page it would just so happen that there would be the positive elements of the report on that. Rather, in the spirit of open and accountable and co-operative opposition, what I did was I tabled the report to refresh the minister's memory of an incident that the minister himself has the report of.

In the attempt to save paper – and I'm sure the minister of the environment, were he here, would be able to acknowledge and praise the opposition for doing that – it appears that we missed every second page of the report. The minister, in an attempt to deflect the questions that were asked of him, which focused on the abrogation of his responsibility and the responsibility of the occupational health and safety branch of the department with regards to workers in this province, seems to have tried to deflect it by indicating that we were trying to hide something by the report that was tabled.

I'd like to assure the minister that as soon as the report makes the long trek from the Annex over to the Legislative Assembly, both sides of the report will be presented, or the minister could just as well ask for that report from his department within this building. We can present both sides as well. Thank you. MR. DA Y: Well, Mr. Speaker, a couple of points. There was no abrogation of responsibility. As a matter of fact, I responded very specifically to the incident, giving details to statistics as far as injury rates and to the admission that within the department there

2256 Alberta Hansard October 31, 1995 had been an oversight in terms of an occupational health and safety worker not returning to follow up on a report. There was no deflection whatsoever. I merely suggested, not accused, that when someone files a report and leaves out every second page of the report – did I suggest the member opposite was doing something dishonest? No. I said: in the interest of honesty and accuracy. So, Mr.

Speaker, the precedent of this House is very clear that we take members at their word, even though members opposite did not take our Premier at his word when he left one little word off a letter, a three-letter word. They carried on for days. They did not follow the precedent of the House, which is to take members at their word. However, I will not stoop to that level. I will take the member at her word that this was an honest oversight and would ask in the future that she be more careful in working with her own staff to make sure these reports get tabled in their entirety.

THE SPEAKER: Well, the Chair would thank both hon. members for clarifying this incident in question period. Point of Order Questions about Treasury Branch Clients MR. DOERKSEN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to draw to your attention and ask for your ruling to do with a matter that has concerned me actually for some time, and that is the matter of dealing with the relationship between the Treasury Branch and its client. In a normal banking relationship between a banker and their client, it's a matter of trust and confidence. Mr.

Speaker, I understand the Member for Edmonton-White- mud's concern with the particular account, and I don't question his motives in answering the question, but I think there's an important principle here. If I can raise the matter between the Treasury Branch and Mary Smith down the street, who maybe only has a $5,000 car loan, or the matter between a Treasury Branch and farmer Brown, who gets financing for his land, or even further, if we could even draw in the Alberta Agriculture Financial Services Corporation and talk about each one of their clients, I think we're setting a dangerous precedent.

Now, I know that these two, the Treasury Branch and Agriculture Financial Services, have a unique relationship to this government, and that's why I'm asking you at this time if you would take that under consideration and ask whether it is appropriate to raise those kinds of questions on the floor of this Legislature. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Whitemud. DR. PERCY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In reply to the point of order. I mean, it's very clear when you look at the reporting relationship of the Alberta Treasury Branches that the acting superintendent reports to the Provincial Treasurer.

It is also very clear that there is absolutely no other mechanism. I in fact have on my desk three rejections under the freedom of information Act for material that I requested from the Alberta Treasury Branches. So I've tried every channel that is open and possible. We get no answers in Public Accounts when we bring these issues up. The fundamental issue here: this is not a commercial bank, Mr. Speaker, in the normal sense. It is backstopped by Alberta taxpayers; $9 billion in savings de posits are self-insured by the Alberta Treasury Branches.

We collectively have an obligation to watch how that so-called bank operates in a prudent fashion, and when it appears that the Peter Pocklingtons of the world, the Norman Greens of the world, the Ghermezians of the world, the Hal Walkers, probably even the Ryckmans of the world get a nice ride from the Treasury Branches, I think it is our responsibility in this House to bring it up because it is taxpayers' dollars that are at risk. There is not a board in place yet for the Alberta Treasury Branches, though one is going to perhaps emerge sometime in the winter or the spring.

Even then there's nothing equivalent to an annual general meeting of shareholders where I as a shareholder could go in and say: “How is this bank being operated? Why did you make those loans? Why are your administrative costs so high, and why is your performance so mediocre relative to every other commercial institution of comparable size?” Those are questions that I thi nk it is appropriate for us to raise both in question period and in debate on the estimates. I would just bring home two points, Mr. Speaker. Since it is an agency of the government, it impinges on the bottom line.

Since we are on a consolidated bookkeeping basis for the prov- ince, any change in the fiscal position of the Alberta Treasury Branches shows up as a change both in the deficit of the province, on the consolidated basis, as well as the debt. It's clear, then, that once it directly impinges on those types of fiscal variables, we have every right, I think, to bring it up and discuss it in the House. The government can't have it both ways in this.

If they want it to be viewed as a commercial bank, then they ought to privatize it, because after all they did undertake studies through Treasury Branches to assess the privatization. As it is right now, it's neither fish nor fowl, though, you know, some of the portfolio I think is decidedly foul. So I think that the government has to get off the proverbial pot and decide what they're going to do with the Treasury Branches. Are they going to privatize them, or are they going to put them at arm's length?

Are they going to have some professional managers in there so that we don't end up having the Dallas Stars owing $40 million to the Alberta Treasury Branches? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 3:10 MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, further to the point of order, I'll await your ruling as far as what was raised by Red Deer-South. I would also ask on this point of order – the member opposite who just completed his statements I think is treading dangerously close to the brink of impropriety when he just casually throws out the names of citizens. I have no idea who some of these individu- als are, but he throws these names out.

I have no idea what association it is. The fact of the matter is that this public arena does get reported on, and Beauchesne is very clear about these casual reflections, that unfortunately fall like dandruff on the public perception and can be damaging to the reputation and name of others. I would request a word of guidance from you on that. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Red Deer-South I think certainly is entitled to raise his concerns in this area, but the Chair doesn't really believe it can make a definitive ruling.

The Chair can only point out to hon. members that particularly on the first point about the propriety of the general question, the Chair really is loath to do anything that restricts the freedom of speech of all hon. members, because if we can't have reasonable latitudes here, we're greatly inhibited in dealing with the people's business. But on the other side of that, there are responsibilities not to abuse that situation.

October 31, 1995 Alberta Hansard 2257 The Chair feels that the hon. Provincial Treasurer is certainly capable of standing his ground with respect to what has apparently become a tradition in this House about answering questions about specific loans. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Whitemud will no doubt continue to attempt to raise concerns about the lending policies of the Alberta Treasury Branches. That, I guess, is going to be sort of a cost of doing business in this area.

Certainly the Government House Leader raises a good point, and the Chair would like to caution the hon. member about the casual dropping of names and would refer all hon. members to citation 493(4) of Beauchesne that covers that. When people who are not here cannot in any way defend themselves, it's not really appropriate, I don't think, for us members to just casually sprinkle their names throughout the deliberations of the House.

The Chair would leave this matter at that for all members to make them- selves familiar with those things and to govern themselves accordingly. head: Orders of the Day head: Public Bills and Orders Other than head: Government Bills and Orders head: Third Reading Bill 212 Motor Vehicle Administration Amendment Act, 1995 MR. DOERKSEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm ready to close debate. I will yield the floor if anybody wishes to speak before my closing remarks. THE SPEAKER: Does the hon. member wish to move third reading of this Bill? MR. DOERKSEN: Sorry. Y es, I would be pleased to move third reading of Bill 212.

THE SPEAKER: Is the Assembly ready for the question? MR. DOERKSEN: Sorry, Mr. Speaker. As I understood it – again I need your clarification – I had time to speak in general debate, and then I also had time, five minutes at the end, to close debate. I wish to yield the floor for anybody who wanted to speak before I close debate, because I do have some words that I'd like to say but only upon closing debate. THE SPEAKER: Well, they were given the opportunity. If nobody wishes to rise, then you may close debate. MR. DOERKSEN: Okay. Mr.

Speaker, on Bill 212 I just wish to remind the members here that we've had a good debate. We've had some exciting times in the House on the vote in committee. I just want to remind the members that the object of this Bill is to reduce the number of injury accidents and fatalities on our highways and on our streets. Many of us have witnessed firsthand – I know I have – accidents that s hould not have happened, and we've sat and held the heads of people who have been injured in these accidents.

What this Bill proposes to do is to try to reduce the number of times that that happens so that all of us can live safer and healthier lives in this province. In that sense, Mr. Speaker, I will classify this Bill as a nonhealth health Bill. Governments all across Canada are struggling to control health care costs, and many of the efforts have been directed at the supply side of the equation in the health care field. What this Bill proposes to do or could do is serve to reduce the demand through the reduced number of injury accidents that happen on our streets and on our roads. Mr.

Speaker, there's been an issue that's come to my attention. The minister has indicated in his speech that he will conduct a consultation with stakeholders on matters of testing provisions prior to implementation. I'm going to encourage him, in his examination of the issues, to consider the fact of older new drivers and immigrant new drivers, because it is a concern particularly for immigrants coming to Canada who wish to work and who need to drive to do so and for those who have never driven before.

While the evidence is clear that older new drivers are also a higher risk, the other side we do have to consider is whether there should be some provisions made that could accommodate these drivers in obtaining their licences s ooner so that they can also obtain and maintain meaningful employment. So I'm asking the minister in his consultation to consider that aspect prior to proclamation.

I'd also ask that prior to proclama- tion the minister examine the curr ent testing provisions that are now in place in Alberta so that we can make sure that prior to gaining an unrestricted driver's licence, drivers would have a sufficient test that would examine their ability to be on the road. So, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to recommend this Bill to the House. I would ask the members to vote in accordance with what I think are good principles of the B ill, principles that have been supported at second reading, principles that I think make common sense. I therefore now move third reading of Bill 212. HON.

MEMBERS: Question. THE SPEAKER: The question having been called on the motion for third reading of Bill 212, Motor Vehicle Administration Amendment Act, 1995, all those in favour, please say aye. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. THE SPEAKER: Opposed, please say no. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. [Several members rose calling for a division. The division bell was rung at 3:20 p.m.] [Ten minutes having elapsed, the Assembly divided] For the motion: Black Fritz McFarland Brassard Gordon Oberg Burgener Hanson Percy Clegg Havelock Pham Day Hlady Sekulic Dinning Jacques Tannas Doerksen Laing Taylor, N.

Fischer Langevin White Forsyth Leibovici Y ankowsky Friedel Massey Against the motion: Abdurahman Germain Sapers

2258 Alberta Hansard October 31, 1995 Ady Haley Shariff Amery Hierath Smith Bracko Kirkland Soetaert Bruseker Kowalski Stelmach Calahasen Mirosh Thurber Chadi Nicol Van Binsbergen Collingwood Paszkowski Vasseur Dickson Renner Zwozdesky Dunford Totals: For – 29 Against – 28 [Motion carried; Bill 212 read a third time] head: Motions Other than Government Motions Child Poverty 515. Ms Hanson moved:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly urge the government to take immediate steps to reduce the number of Alberta children living in poverty by implementing and funding a Head Start program, providing funding for a provincewide school snack and hot lunch program where need is demonstrated, ensuring that child care is accessible and affordable, providing public health nurses in schools, ensuring accessibility to comprehensive c ounseling in schools, and improving enforcement of maintenance payments. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands- Beverly. MS HANSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm speaking to Motion 515 on poverty among children in Alberta. For many years now Alberta has come close to leading the nation in terms of the number of families living in poverty. Our meagre assistance rates, slashed even lower when the present government took over, leave many Albertans, especially children, languishing in a dead- end cycle of poverty. The latest counts show that there are approximately 124,000 Alberta children living in poverty. The largest group of people on social assistance are children, and 40 percent of the total caseloads are single mothers.

Among the more obvious problems caused by poverty – and there are many – are a higher death rate from birth defects and infectious disease and accidents, a higher rate of premature birth and low birth weight, decreased school performance, and a greater risk of adult social problems including unemployment, disability, and criminal behaviour. Those are only a few of the indicators that have shown up in studies.

When Alberta Liberals have repeatedly proposed solutions to combat the child poverty figures, both within and outside the Assembly, our calls for action have received little attention from the Conservative government. Perhaps it's because many government members have no understanding of what it means in 1995 to be poor. Some may claim that they came from impover- ished roots, but that was a different era, often based on a rural farming economy, where there was often a garden or a trapline to keep a family fed and nourished.

There is no such trapline and no such garden for children living in the inner city of Calgary or Edmonton. For a poor child today life is a completely different struggle than for those adults who believe that if they could survive a childhood of poverty, then so can today's child. To help educate the government on what it means to be growing up poor, Alberta Liberals want to take government members through a typical day in the life of a 12-year-old boy named Michael. Michael lives with his 28-year-old mother and 14- month-old baby sister. Michael's father has not lived at home for the past two years.

Child support is so sporadic that Michael's mother has given up looking for the proverbial cheque in the mail. Michael's mother makes minimum wage cleaning offices, with social assistance supplementing her income. She averages an income of $1,200 a month. While her name is on the waiting list for subsidized apartments, she currently pays just over $600 a month for rent and utilities. Often Michael's day begins in a panic. On this day his mother, who worked until 4 in the morning, Michael, who was up most of the night caring for his baby sister, who was sick with the flu, and the family slept in.

Groggy with sleep, the mother tries to scrounge something up for breakfast. Since it's a few days before payday, the little bit of milk that is left goes to Michael's baby sister. Insisting that her son have some semblance of breakfast, Michael's mother coaxes him to eat a piece of toast and weak tea. Butter, jam, even peanut butter are luxuries they can't afford. Michael walks the short distance to school despite the cooler weather. He has outgrown his winter coat and, instead, tries to keep warm in a sweatshirt and a nylon ball jacket. He takes no lunch, choosing instead to save the bread for tonight's supper.

For as long as Michael can remember, school has been a struggle. He remembers with embarrassment how he was the only one in his grade 1 class who could not read. With each year the schoolwork gets tougher, and Michael's frustration grows. On this particular day, Michael particularly dreads going to school. This afternoon, his class is going on a field trip to the local dinosaur exhibit. His mother couldn't afford the $5 fee, so instead he will spend the afternoon, as he always does when the class goes on trips, helping out in the school library.

It is humiliating, and on days like this Michael wishes his mother would let him stay home from school. He remembers with embarrassment how his mother had to strike a special deal with the school principal to make monthly installments on his school and gym fees. Every month Michael's mother makes a small payment to the school. She refuses to let the school cover the costs, as the principal did suggest. Special gym equipment or running shoes are not a reality for Michael, and when the gym class goes swimming or on ski trips, Michael stays home. Michael stays home most weekends, caring for his sister.

He goes to few birthday parties, because he cannot bring a present. Outings to the mall, the swimming pool, or the movies are out of the question. He is beginning to think about getting a job, but he knows that he needs to stay home and care for his sister. As Michael's morning progresses, his long sleepless night and poor breakfast take effect, and he falls asleep in class. He is awakened by his homeroom teacher. An understanding woman, she offers him a piece of fruit. She keeps these things in her desk for mornings like this.

Michael takes the apple with embarrass- ment, but he's grateful, remembering he has no lunch. As he watches his classmates board the school bus, he begins to feel a growing anger that he is always left behind, missing out on all the fun parts of school. 3:40 On his way home from school he stops by the new baby-sitter. Since his mother's working a swing shift, he has to pick up the baby on his way home. He hates going there. Because of his

October 31, 1995 Alberta Hansard 2259 mother's varied shifts, she can't find a day care in the neighbour- hood, so she is forced to leave the baby with a neighbour down the road. He cringes when he walks into the livingroom crowded with kids, some crying, others watching TV. The room reeks of cigarette smoke. The sitter is focused on this TV soap opera and barely nods when Michael enters the room. He finds his sister in a playpen in the corner, bundles her up, and takes her home.

After settling the baby, he fixes supper, the few remaining slices of bread and a box of macaroni, which he carefully mashes up to share with his sister. He can barely wait for the end of the week, when his mother gets paid. Then they go shopping. When the weather's mild, they usually walk the several blocks to the local grocer. His mother tells him the prices aren't as great as in the big super stores, but this one is closer, and they can avoid paying cab fare. He worries about his sister's cough and runny nose. She's sick a lot, and he makes a note to tell his mother today.

She gets sick often, and mother takes her to the clinic as often as she can for medication, but many times the doctor suggests over-the-counter medication like children's Tylenol or cough syrup, things that aren't covered on assistance. She tries not to skimp on the medication. Instead, she passes sometimes on her bus pass or her lunch, but often there is just no money, and she turns to the local druggist for help. Last month the druggist stopped giving the family credit, and now mother is forced to face paying off another bill. Mr.

Speaker, while this child's school friends rush off after dinner to hockey practice at the local rink, Michael longs for a pair of skates. He had a pair when he was younger and his feet were smaller, but he hasn't been on skates now for years, and he wonders if he would still know how to skate. Michael puts the baby to bed. He tries to do his homework, but he can't focus, so he turns on the world's worst babysitter: the TV set. There he spends the rest of his evening, trying to escape the stark existence. Mr.

Speaker, members may scoff or look incredulous at this story, but the reality is that there are literally t housands of Michaels in the province who have the potential to grow up into very angry, very resentful adults. How else can we expect them to react, when the government refuses to take steps to alleviate their poverty and opts instead to blow over a billion dollars on fiascos like NovAtel and Bovar? Mr. Speaker, I urge the Assembly to vote in favour of this motion. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. MRS. BURGENER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I hesitate to rise this afternoon to speak against this motion because I don't feel comfortable in any way diminishing the comments that my colleague for Edmonton-Highlands-Beverly has made with respect to child poverty and its effects in our community. Unfortunately I have some difficulty with the motion. I think it's important that we read it into the record, because while the sentiments of dealing with poverty and the impact on children are important, we also have a responsibility to craft legislation and direct the arguments and discussions in a way that is productive. The motion reads:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly urge the government to take immediate steps to reduce the number of Alberta children living in poverty by implementing and funding a Head Start program, providing funding for a provincewide school snack and hot lunch program where need is demonstrated, ensuring that child care is accessible and affordable, providing public health nurses in schools, ensuring accessibility to comprehensive counseling in schools, and improving enforcement of maintenance payments. Mr.

Speaker, as I go through this motion, I'm aware of the fact that under the title of “Child Poverty” there are about six distinct yet related policy areas, each of which probably could have been a motion on its own. The consequence of such a complicated motion is that the message and the intent are almost lost among the details. I have a concern that the issue of child poverty could not be resolved by simply one of these, nor can it be resolved by bundling them all together.

So I'd like to focus a little bit on the recognition that this concern does exist in our community and that we have an attempt here to craft a motion that would reflect that child poverty is a serious factor within our community and that failure to address child poverty at any number of policy levels will have long-term implications for our community, not the least of which is the fiscal impact, which, as you know, is a concern for this government. Mr.

Speaker, despite the member's honourable intentions, I think it's important that we tell Albertans what programs we currently do have in place, because what is sad a bout the story that was just related to us is that this mother and that school community and that child are not able to access programs that are available that could meet their needs. I do understand the recognition that what happens in a rural community with respect to poverty has a different implication to a city community, and that's why I have a concern about the way the motion is crafted. Mr.

Speaker, Alberta has not only one Head Start program; it has several. For the member's information and that of the rest of the House I'd like to provide some of these details on these programs. The first program I would like to discuss is the Success by Six program. This is funded by three levels of government as well as through corporate and community sponsor- ship. In addition to their current funding support for Head Start programs, this is part of the FCSS initiative to reach out to children at risk before the age of six.

In the case of the story told to us, this is certainly something that could be available to Michael's sister. The needs of aboriginal children living in urban centres and large northern communities have been addressed by the federal government's aboriginal Head Start initiative. This project is to be designed and controlled by local aboriginal people. The federal government has promised to contribute $100 million across Canada over a four-year period to establish this program. Mr.

Speaker, we do not know, in the scenario that was related to us, whether this family is aboriginal, but we do know that close to 50 percent of all the children in care in Alberta are aboriginal children and require some support such as this particular initiative. The federal/provincial initiative community action program for children, or CAPC, is part of the federal government's Brighter Futures program. This program provides funding for children at risk up to six years of age and their families.

I focus on “and their families.” This initiative helps communities and organiza- tions to develop and maintain programs or services which are designed to address conditions of risk during the earliest years of a child's life to provide education and intervention activities. The federal Department of Health is providing $18.7 million through 1997-98 for these programs managed in Alberta. The program is managed through a co-operative relationship between Health Canada and Alberta Health, and a total of 26 projects have been awarded funding and contain components of community develop-

2260 Alberta Hansard October 31, 1995 ment, Head Start, parenting, pregnant and parenting team, rural outreach, and urban outreach project categories. Mr. Speaker, I go back to my initial comments about the motion where it reflects that we need to have a provincewide approach. It's important to realize that some of these initiatives need local

interpretation, and this particular initiative addresses that concern. ECS operators in our province can also access assistance through Alberta Education. The department's funding for program enhancement projects, or PEP, assists ECS operators to provide special programs and services to meet the learning requirements of children who are economically disadvantaged. All ECS operators are able to receive regular program enhance- ment project funding for 15 percent of their eligible enrollment. Eligibility for PEP funding is to be determined on a priority basis, based on primary and secondary factors.

Another program offered by Alberta Education is the enhanced opportunity funding, which assists school jurisdictions to meet the educational needs of students who are economically disadvan- taged. Through this program the school jurisdiction may receive enhanced opportunity funding for projects assisting with excep- tional education, social and economic needs of students ranging from grades 1 through grade 12. Mr. Speaker, I would also just like to mention at this time that a number of local school communities have developed hands-on programs which draw on the resources within their community.

Certainly when I was a trustee I participated and was aware of some of these local initiatives. There's no doubt in my mind that there's a direct relationship between a child being able to eat and be fed and their ability to learn and be productive in the class- room. I think that in the scenario that the Member for Edmonton- Highlands-Beverly spoke to us about that issue was alluded to. But it is also the responsibility of the local community to have some sense of the children who attend their school community.

I think we'll find as the local school councils take their initiative and their responsibilities more fully in the roles and responsibili- ties and as businesses determin e that they want to become involved in the school communities, we will see some support at the local level to deal with some of these issues. 3:50 Jacket racket is another program in place, Mr. Speaker, that's been developed from a local initiative, that meets some of the basic needs of students, not necessarily because there's poverty but often because there's blatant neglect on behalf of the parents of these children.

It's not appropriate to assign blame or responsi- bility in the issue of this particular debate, but I don't think we can exclude children who have access to more resources but whose parents neglect their responsibilities. To complement these programs the government has established a four-department committee to improve the co-ordination of services delivery at the provincial and local levels so that Al- berta's children and youth in need and their families will be better served.

The committee is composed of the departments of Family and Social Services, Health, Education, and Justice, and it is working co-operatively with local community groups and stake- holders to develop and implement local action plans that use available resources to meet those needs. As well, Mr. Speaker, in November of 1994 the minister announced that children's services would be delivered by the communities of Alberta within the next three years.

Block funding for programs such as Head Start will fall under the jurisdiction of community-based working groups who will determine the specific needs of the children in their area. Nine new programs have been announced of which the majority have also been based on the Head Start model. These working groups at the community level will determine both the specific needs of local children and what programs and services will best meet those needs, including early intervention programs.

There's a fundamental shift that is occurring within our communities, and I think that the ability to have this motion in front of us does continue to focus on the need for society at large to deal with the issues of our neglected children. Mr. Speaker, it's clear that the children of Alberta have the services available to them, and I would encourage the sponsoring member of this motion to have that in mind, because in crafting the motion, as I said, it's made it very difficult to support the motion as it stands.

To implement Head Start programs, that the motion calls for, would only result in the unnecessary duplication of services at an unwarranted cost to taxpayers. We have heard time and time again within the House the issue of maintenance enforcement and child support, and as recently as this afternoon we had questions on that issue. We need initiatives in that respect that embrace the federal position so that we do not leave these children disadvantaged. I don't think the counseling aspect of this particular motion, as an example, Mr. Speaker, as a stand-alone item, will necessarily deal with child poverty.

We're talking about the neglect and abuse of our children, and that is a much broader issue than has been spoken to in the motion.

In conclusion, I would like to compliment the member for the initiative that has been brought forward, and I think we will have from the debate that continues over the next hour the responsibil- ity to recognize the impact of poverty on our children, to become more aware of the issues of poverty and neglect, to engage the community at large to look at their children and the social needs that they may have, and to support those who are disadvantaged in their ability to be able to support them. But, Mr. Speaker, I'm not able to support the motion in its structured form at this time. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon.

Member for West Y ellowhead. MR. V AN BINSBERGEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm speaking in support of this motion:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly urge the Government to take immediate steps to reduce the number of Alberta children living in poverty by implementing [a series of programs]. I've just listened to the last speaker here very well, the Member for Calgary-Currie, and in my view she made a compelling argument in favour of the motion, even though she intends to oppose it.

She outlined all the programs that the federal govern- ment is running and is financing and all of those that are taking place at the local level, but she also by omission indicated the glaring gap in this roster of programs at the provincial level. I think it's particularly important that we do have these programs, because it is only then that we can be assured of provincewide standards, and they're very much needed in order to provide our kids with equal opportunity as they start on this life. Mr. Speaker, perhaps it needs to be stated to what extent we do find many kids in poverty in Alberta.

In fact, Alberta has led Canada in the last few years in terms of the number of families living in poverty, and I don't think that's a statistic that we ought to be proud of. Approximately 124,000 Alberta children live in poverty. We also know that the largest group of people on social assistance are children, 40 percent of all those who are on

October 31, 1995 Alberta Hansard 2261 welfare. The question arises: how has our government, the Alberta government of which Calgary-Currie is a member, reacted to those kinds of data? What has happened ever since this government took office in 1993? By the way, at no time during the election issue did they indicate that they would cut, for instance, such programs as early childhood education. I think it's important, too, to mention that, because I still maintain that that would have lost them the election, that particular item alone. Mr.

Speaker, they have in fact introduced and made a whole bunch of decisions that have actually hurt children. In addition to the halving of the funding for ECS programs, they've also slashed social assistance rates and reduced benefits. They've cut the day care subsidy by 20 percent and refused full-time day care for parents on assistance looking for work or in need of respite. They've cut education budgets so that there are no more public health nurses in schools, and counsellors are being cut right now as well, because they're not deemed to be important anymore, I think, by this Department of Education.

They've refused consistently to apply all of the penalties under the Maintenance Enforcement Act, and they've let repeated offenders avoid stiff punishments like jail. Now, Mr. Speaker, in spite of all the studies that have indicated that it was not a wise move to cut kindergarten, it was not a wise move to slash social assistance rates to that point, in spite of all that, they've done it, and we're paying the price.

We're paying the price in the sense that it is quite evident through all sorts of studies that in the future those people who are now being harmed by those kinds of cuts will far more likely end up offending, and I'm talking about criminal offences. Mr. Speaker, I started teaching in the Grande Prairie area, in the small village of Hythe to be specific, over 30 years ago. At that time my wife was instrumental in getting a Head Start program going in that area, which benefited many of the rural children who were in many cases wallowing in poverty, if I can call it that.

We were back there less than a year ago, and we found out to our great disappointment that the funding had been cut for that particular program. It was no longer available, and it hadn't been for a while. Consequently that really affected the children there. Needless to say, my wife was disappointed that her good work had gone astray. 4:00 I think it's important to take a quick look at some of the problems that are caused by these easy measures of cutting, cutting without really much thinking.

Some of the more obvious problems that are caused by poverty are – and again, this is all documented very, very far and wide – higher death rate from birth defects, infectious disease, and accidents. There's a higher rate of premature birth and low birth weight, increased child abuse and emotional neglect, decreased school performance – and I could certainly speak at length on that particular subject alone – shorter life expectancy, higher incidence of depression, higher risk of chronic health problems, greater risk of adult social problems including unemployment, disability, and criminal behaviour.

All that, all the likelihood of all of those things, has increased greatly by simple cuts at the early level. Of course, it is a shortsighted move, Mr. Speaker, because in the long run the taxpayer ends up having to fork out lots of dollars simply because so many more people end up committing crimes, end up on social welfare, and so on and so forth. Y ou know, we've had studies done that indicate that if the daily cost for a low birth weight baby in a neonatal unit is fifteen hundred bucks and the average length of stay is 40 days, the cost to taxpayers is a whopping $60,000 per infant.

Now, if on the other hand the chances of that child not being underweight by better feeding – I think we're avoiding a real drain on the taxpayers' money here, not to mention the social and psychologi- cal costs. There used to be a very good neonatal unit at the U of A hospital. I'm not sure where it is now, but I think it has been cut. I hope it is somewhere, still. Mr. Speaker, a national study on disability and children revealed that poor children had twice the rate of mental and physical disabilities as children from high income families, and for severe disabilities the rate was 2.7 times higher.

Researchers conclude that the number of disabled children in Canada could be cut by some 89,000 if low income were not a factor. There are more actions taken by this government that are in fact aggravating these situations. I'm thinking of the reduction, perhaps I should say, of educational funding for the moderately handicapped. I've seen the effect it has had already at the classroom level, where teacher aides have been cut left, right, and centre. All of that will make the problem even more acute, and I can't emphasize enough how much it is needed that this government do something positive in that sense.

The Senate report on child poverty stated that the Canadian taxpayers would save almost $10 billion over the next two decades if more help were given to low-income children, who are likely to drop out of school. So the evidence is all around us and it's overwhelming, but instead this government continues to fork out the money to its pals like Bovar, like Multi-Corp, like NovAtel and so on, and the friends of the government. I won't mention any names because the Speaker has ruled that sort of out of order.

They continue to heap lavishly all that money on their friends, yet our kids in poverty are just suffering the brunt of all this. It is vastly misplaced what is happening right now, Mr. Speaker, and it also, in addition to that – I'm now speaking to businessmen on the other side – does not make any business sense to do that, because in the long run you are not getting the money back out of the investment that you could have had. DR. WEST: Who started Atomic Energy of Canada, a Liberal or a Conservative? MR. V AN BINSBERGEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm mindful of the minister of transportation.

He will no doubt rise to the occasion shortly and defend all the money that's been given to Bovar and that's been given to NovAtel and that's been given to Pocklington and so on. Right? The minister of transportation is a man of principle. He sat around the table when they approved all of those deals. So he will stand by those deals. He will defend them. [interjections] THE SPEAKER: Order, hon. members. [interjections] Order. The hon. Member for West Y ellowhead to the motion, please. MR. V AN BINSBERGEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm tempted to engage in the debate as to what happened before the Mayflower arrived here.

I think that's as far as the minister is prepared to go. He's back in time. DR. L. TA YLOR: Wrong country. The Mayflower never even arrived here, and you call yourself a teacher? MR. V AN BINSBERGEN: Mr. Speaker, that's an interesting comment coming from the Member for Cypress-Medicine Hat.

2262 Alberta Hansard October 31, 1995 MR. GERMAIN: That's right. He's probably never read a book. MR. V AN BINSBERGEN: No, probably not. Mr. Speaker, it's all good fun, but I want to get back to the business at hand. After all, we're talking about our kids. We always say: our kids are our future. But it seems that this government has decided that it doesn't really matter all that much. They are carefully avoiding taking those measures that are necessary to make sure that our kids get an equal opportunity, a fair opportunity, to make something of themselves. Mr.

Speaker, I therefore urge the members opposite, those with the saner heads – and there are some; I've seen some evidence at times – to reflect upon this motion and to consider it very carefully and in the long run to say, “Y es, perhaps this motion is what is needed to kick start this government into doing what it's supposed to do,” and that is to look after our kids. Thank you very much. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-McCall. MR. SHARIFF: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in this House to speak to Motion 515. I'd like to begin by first acknowledging and commending the hon.

Member for Edmonton-Highlands-Beverly for this motion. I support the principles of the motion. Poverty is an issue that affects many Canadians, and it deserves our attention. It is a problem that's associated with all facets of our lives. The hon. member spoke in this House a year ago, May 30, 1994, and alluded to the same facts again today. The points that the hon. member raised are very important, and let's reconsider them.

I quote her statement: Some of the more obvious problems caused by poverty are a higher death rate from birth def ects, infectious disease, and accidents; a higher rate of premat ure birth weight and low birth weights; increased child abuse and emotional neglect; decreased school performance; a shorter life expectancy; a higher incidence of depression; a higher risk of chronic health problems; and a greater risk of adult social problems including unemployment,

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	19951031
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L23 S3 19951031 1330 01 han.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	66c8815ab06e05cf6400f07f4ca82b41e6405f41

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