Manitoba Hansard — 20 October 1995 (Sitting 52, 36th Legislature, 1st Session)

36-1-52

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLV No. 52-10 a.m., Friday, October 20, 1995 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political AtTiliation � Constituency lm ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK., Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood P.C.

EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. - HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LA THLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon.

Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. - REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C.

STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

4063 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, October 20, 1995 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Emergency Health Care Services- Community Hospitals Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Juan Salazar, Sonia Salazar, Patricia Pradel and others requesting that the Legislative Assembly urge the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) consider making a commitment to the people of Manitoba that emergency health care services in Winnipeg's five community hospitals will remain open seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

Emergency Health Care Services Seven Oaks General Hospital Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Wendy Gerecke, Jim Livingston and Sally Gozansky requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to consider maintaining 24-hour access to emergency health care at Seven Oaks Hospital, as was promised in the 1995 general election. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Emergency Health Care Services- Community Hospitals Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth THAT emergency health care services are the core of Manitoba's health care system. THAT Manitobans deserve the greatest possible access to this care. THAT the government is considering reducing access to emergency services. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Minister responsible for Health (Mr.

McCrae) consider making a commitment to the people of Manitoba that emergency health care services in Winnipeg's five community hospitals will remain open seven days a week, 24 hours a day. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources Third Report Mr. Frank Pitura (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the Third Report of the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources presents the following as its Third Report. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. Your committee met on Thursday, October 19, 1995, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Annual Reports of the Crown Corporations Council for the years ended December 31, 1993, and December 31, 1994. Mr. Jack Fraser, chairperson, and Mr. Douglas Sherwood, president and chief executive officer, provided such information as was requested with

4064 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 1995 respect to the Annual Reports and business of the Crown Corporations Council. At that meeting your committee adopted the following motion: THAT the Crown Corporations Council report ended December 31, 1993, be passed. Your committee has considered the Annual Report of the Crown Corporations Council for the year ended December 31, 1993, and has adopted the same as presented. Mr. Pitura: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. *

(1005) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Emergency Services Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is for the First Minister. On October 6 the government confirmed that they had ordered the closure of the community hospital emergency wards from 10 p.m. to 8 a.m. In fact, on page 3712 of Hansard, the Minister of Health confirms that, as a result of a consensus reached with facilities and others, the government had instructed the closure of these emergency wards in the five community hospitals.

We have been informed that some hospitals are not going along with these closures in some of the communities; in fact, they have doctors in emergency wards. This is leading to a great deal of confusion on the part of the public: which hospital emergency wards are open between ten o'clock and eight o'clock in the morning, which ones are not; should they go visit those emergency wards with a family situation, should they not. Could the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) tell us today which one of those hospitals is open, or are going to be open, between 10 p.m. and 8 am., and which ones are closed out of the five hospitals, so the public will know? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the community hospitals' emergency rooms are closed between the hours of 10 p.m. and 8 a.m. The honourable member might be referring to a story circulating yesterday that two hospitals were continuing to operate emergency departments. There is indeed that consensus to which I referred at that time.

Current night staffing at the community hospitals is operated according to a protocol amongst all of the five community hospitals. There is one physician there to cover each hospital, two registered nurses for the observation unit and one registered nurse in the emergency unit to assess patients coming in during the nighttime closure hours. We did, this morning, a telephone survey of two of those hospitals which were the subject of this rurnour, if that is what it was, and they confirm this morning that they continue to operate their emergency departments in accordance with the agreed-to protocols. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, what we need is a protocol for the public, because the public is very confused. If you look at the nurses' letter that went to the minister three days ago, they confirmed the same issue. Some doors are open and some doors are closed, and the public does not know whether they should go to those doors or not go to those doors. Will the minister tell us right now, what is the status of the emergency community hospitals in terms of ten o'clock at night to eight o'clock in the morning at Concordia, at Victoria, at Misericordia, at Grace, and at Seven Oaks?

Can he give us specific answers to specific questions so the public will have the protocol, the public will be involved and know what to do as opposed to only the Minister of Health and his own bureaucracy knowing what is going on? Mr. McCrae: There has been very, very significant public comment and coverage of the situation. The

October 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4065 situation is, as I stated in my previous answer, and as has been the case basically since the end of the strike, the honourable member will recall that during the strike they were closed between midnight and 10 and since the strike the hours have been 10 p.m. until 8 a.m. There ought not to be any confusion in the honourable member's mind. We ask the public to use the Health Sciences Centre and the St. Boniface General Hospital, and all the ambulance operators in the city are aware of that.

The protocol that I ref erred to is to take account of people who may not have been aware and do present and they are in a life-threatening situation in the nighttime hours. There had to be some kind of provision for that, and there is that provision. I think with an integrated emergency system in place, and we have all of the players working together, the likelihood of a good quality and efficient emergency system for the long-term future is very much enhanced. * (101 0) Emergency Services Committee Terms of Reference Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): It is a little ironic when something is so important for the public, there are no government ads, but when something is just of the political interest of the Conservatives and the Premier (Mr. Filmon), there are hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on advertising. Madam Speaker, the committee is meeting-the so called Emergency Services Committee-today at 1 :30 p.m. for their first meeting after the government has made the decision to close the emergency wards. The committee is going to meet to deal with it.

Regrettably, we have no terms of reference on this committee, and, regrettably, there is no process in place for the public to be involved in the decisions.

I would like to ask the Premier, will he instruct his Minister of Health and his committee of 43 people, or 42 people, that are primarily made up directly of people working in the health care system, to demand as part of the terms of reference that there be mandatory public hearings in the communities where the community hospital's emergency wards are being closed down, so the public can be in partnership and be involved in these decisions that so directly affect their lives? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health}: I do not think the honourable member is prepared to give any credit to all of the people who have worked so closely, and continue to work closely, to develop a quality emergency services plan in Winnipeg and to ensure that on a daily basis we have a carefully monitored emergency system. The honourable member really does insult the professionals at St. Boniface Hospital, Health Sciences Centre, Children's Hospital, Misericordia Hospital, Grace Hospital- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr.

Doer: On a point of order, again the minister is impugning motives by saying that I am insulting professionals; I did no such thing. I am not insulting professionals. I am asking for public input, which is a totally different question. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the official opposition does not have a point of order. *** Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to quickly complete his response. Mr.

McCrae: Madam Speaker, I just wanted to complete and tell the honourable member that nursing and medical professionals and ambulance professionals are involved and the public is being consulted as well. I have asked that the Manitoba Society of Seniors be contacted to ensure that their concerns are made known to every member of the emergency services working group. We are also asking the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses, the Manitoba Nurses' Union, as well as the Manitoba Association of Health Care Professionals to take

part in these deliberations, as well.

4066 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 1995 So the honourable member should tell it like it is and give the people who are involved in delivering emergency services a little more credit than he is giving them. Seven Oaks General Hospital Service Reduction Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, the best example of people working closely together is the example of the residents of north Winnipeg who worked long and hard for many years to open a hospital in their own community to meet their own needs in their community.

Regrettably, as a result of this government's policies, there have been layoffs ofLPNs, layoffs of nurses, the closing of emergency rooms at night, the closing of beds and now the layoff of staff in the emergency department. I would like to ask this Minister of Health why his policy of reducing the funding to Seven Oaks Hospital by $2 million this year has resulted in a reduction of services to the residents of north Winnipeg, and why is he punishing these people who worked so hard to have a hospital in their community? *

(1015) Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): The honourable member supports a political party which has seen to it that we do not have $600 million this year to spend on hospitals, Madam Speaker. You know, if we did not have-[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Burrows, with his supplementary question. Point of Order Mr. McCrae: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, I was not finished my answer. I had not taken very long. I spoke for only seconds. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Health does not have a point of order. *** Mr.

Martindale: I would like to ask the Minister of Health, who can say anything he wants to me, what is he going to say to the residents of north Winnipeg to explain and justify and rationalize if he can, and I believe he cannot, the reduction of hospital services to the residents of north Winnipeg because of the layoffs and the closures at Seven Oaks Hospital? [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

McCrae: I am sorry, Madam Speaker, honourable members opposite make it necessary for you to get to your feet as often as you have today, knowing as I do that you experienced an incident yourself yesterday dealing with your foot. Madam Speaker, what I am going to tell the people of north Winnipeg is the same thing I am going to tell to people in south Winnipeg and east and west and all over this province, and that is that, partly because of the profligacy of the government represented by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) during the Pawley years and other governments as well in this country, we are now in a situation where we have to look at providing quality services in an efficient manner. I am going to tell them in north Winnipeg and everywhere else too that what we will have as a result of a proper scoping of our health care system and planning is a system that we can keep for future generations, in spite of the misdeeds of honourable members opposite. Emergency Services Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Why is this minister who is part of a government which ran up the highest deficit in the history ofManitoba, $819 million, not only punishing the residents of north Winnipeg by reducing hospital services but also the victim of rape who attended Seven Oaks Hospital in the middle of the night and, because the emergency services were not available, instead of following the usual protocol of being accompanied to the Health Sciences or being sent by ambulance, was sent by herself to the Health Sciences? Did this- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

October 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4067 Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I must review the

preamble to the honourable member's question, but, you know, it is passing strange here that honourable members over there should be raising any kind of question whatsoever in terms of the spending of public dollars. He talks about deficits here in Manitoba. My colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) should sit down with the honourable member and remind him about how many dollars are being spent to finance debt that has been imposed upon us by honourable members opposite in this province.

Madam Speaker, it is absolutely astounding to me that they should raise any questions about deficits when their own performance is the reason that we have debt that we have to look after each and every year, unfortunately for many years. University of Manitoba Labour Dispute Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews) have clearly displayed their biased opinions against the U of M Faculty Association and the students attending the University of Manitoba by openly siding with the Tory-appointed board of governors.

My question is for the Minister of Education. Can the Minister of Education tell the House today, since she wrote to the U of M Faculty Association requesting a commitment to the students, has this minister also written to the U ofM board of governors, reminding them of their commitment to the students, and if she has not written to the board of governors, why not? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): I have indeed written to UMF A.

I have indeed, through my deputy on my instructions, written to the administration asking for measures to be put in place to assist the students through this difficult time. I also wish to point out to the member that which he knows but refuses to acknowledge, and that is that the board of governors does have 23 people, 12 of whom are appointed by the government, two of whom are students and one of whom is the chair, so in terms of voting power, the senate members on the board of governors have very, very strong ability to input, and, in fact, do input into the decisions made by the board of governors.

So I think he should cease and desist in terms of making those implications. *

(1020) Our concern is with the students, Madam Speaker. The reason that the Faculty Association was written is because they are the only group in this whole affair, the only group, that has turned its back on the students and walked away from its obligations to the students. None of the other groups have walked away from the students, and we are saying, please, go back, put your students first, as you indicated to me in July you would, and continue your own problem solving in an atmosphere that does not negatively impact upon students who have done nothing wrong to deserve the impact they may experience. Mr.

Reid: Contrary to the minister's words-and I will table a copy, Madam Speaker-the Graduate Students' Association unconditionally supports the U of M Faculty Association's decision to strike, so the minister's words are wrong. Can this Minister ofEducation, if she says she really cares for the plight of the students, indicate if she has advised the board of governors to get back to the bargaining table over the weekend to try and resolve this matter, so that the students can get back to their classes on Monday? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, again, the member is selective in the points he brings forward.

The graduate students are the only group of students that have passed a motion supporting UMF A. The other students have said, will somebody please teach us? We would like to get the learning experience for which we are paying. Madam Speaker, I met with UMSU yesterday. My door is open at any time that UMSU wishes to come

4068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 1995 back. They know that. We will be in regular touch with each other, so that I can personally hear from the students what the students are saying. I will listen to them, not to what somebody else says, taking little selective groupings. Madam Speaker, I have indicated in my earlier question the only group that is walking away from the students and refusing to bargain are the professors. The other people are willing and eager to get on with the task. Mr.

Reid: My final supplementary to the Minister of Education: Can the Minister of Education tell the students at the University of Manitoba why her government's previous Minister of Labour told the parties in the Manitoba sugar beet dispute that there were three options, mediation and arbitration, or is the Minister of Education telling the students her government's final option is, it is over, it is done, get on with their lives? Why is arbitration available for the sugar beet dispute and not for the students in this province, Madam Speaker? Mrs.

Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, I do not presume to speak for the Minister of Labour, past or present. However, I will say that as Minister of Education and as a former school trustee, it is well known and should be well known to both sides that arbitration boards traditionally take the position that if public dollars are concerned, there is always an ability to pay, unlike private companies. *

(1025) The ability to pay either comes from the taxpayer or from the assessment of fees, and, Madam Speaker, the last thing in the world I want is to see student fees go up because of a settlement that comes about because of suggestions made by members opposite who do not care if student fees rise or not because of a labour dispute. Emergency Services Committee Membership Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Health.

Regarding emergency health care services, there is a very important meeting that is coming up with the Emergency Services Committee, and, Madam Speaker, it is important that there is representation at this meeting from all the different stakeholders, if you like. What I would ask the Minister of Health to indicate to the House today is, can he table or give us an update in terms of who is actually sitting on this particular committee? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, it is a very large and inclusive committee dealing with participation by all of the community and tertiary hospitals, as well as medical and nursing organizations, as well, also, as people representing lab and X-ray people. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Health to give assurances to this House that, in fact, there are individuals, potential patients, the average person that is sitting down, individuals representing different communities, so that, in fact, we are talking about or at least on the table they are talking about, in essence, community-based health care services and the benefits of that. It is important that that side of the argument is going to be presented. There is no doubt the other side is going to be presented. I am concerned about the community-based health care service being presented. Mr.

McCrae: Well, Madam Speaker, I just told the honourable member the community hospitals are very, very adequately represented on this working group. I remind the honourable member that each community hospital is operated by a community board made up of volunteers from the community, and those boards send their medical and nursing people and whomever they feel appropriate to send to the emergency services working group. We are very mindful, Madam Speaker, that the health system belongs to the people of this province. It does not belong to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) or the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) or a doctor or a nurse or anyone else. It belongs to all

October 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4069 of us, and we will provide emergency services for all of the people. Eye Examinations Deinsurance Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Health if he would respond to a quote from the seniors' society newsletter in which it says that the Conservative administration of Manitoba has announced it is considering eliminating coverage for annual eye examinations. Is, in fact, this government looking at eliminating eye examinations for Manitobans? Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, that was a question that arose earlier this year when there was word that the Medical Services Council might be looking at that, and as a result of the concerns raised, I raised with the council the requirement that there be appropriate consultation with the optometrists association and others, so that at this point I have no update for the honourable member on anything happening in that regard. *

(1030) Environmental Education Sustainable Development Grants Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, last year $340,000 worth of grants were given to Manitoba schools for environmental education. There were some interesting projects, and we want to extend the best wishes of this side of the House to the students and teachers. It should come as no surprise to this House that, of the 26 grants, 24 went to Tory ridings. An interesting issue then becomes the other two. I want to ask the Minister of Education if she could tell us, how did she enable those grants in Crescentwood and Selkirk to get through the net?

Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I cannot answer the member's question in terms of how was each of these things decided because I was not making those particular decisions, but I will check into which areas received grants, what the criteria were and I will get back to the member on it. I do not have those details here, but I do wish to clarify that there was no netting or slipping through the net or any of the things that she implies.

Of that I am certain, because I know the people on the staff who make those recommendations are people who make recommendations based on merit. This is back like the Home Renovation Program, where members on this side took the trouble to inform constituents and members on that side did not, the same kind of implication. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Environment because I am talking about the Sustainable Development Innovations grants.

Will he confirm that this set of grants, unlike arts grants, unlike heritage grants or normal research grants, in fact had no external evaluations but were allocated only by cabinet committee? Bon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, they are all evaluated by departments that have relevance with the project that is put forward. Sustainable Development Innovations Fund Information Tabling Request Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Would the same minister undertake to table in the House a historical account of the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund since 1989-90 so we may see all the grants in the same way that the Provincial Auditor finally had to require this department to publish the accounts for the last year? Bon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, out of all of the granting programs in government, this one is the most fully accounted for in this House. We tabled the report only a week or two ago, and I would invite the member to review it. Dwayne Archie Johnston Parole Mr.

Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Acting Minister of Justice and the Minister responsible for Native Affairs.

4070 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 1995 This government failed to consult the family of Helen Betty Osborne when it decided to go against the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and not lay charges against James Houghton in the brutal murder of Helen Betty Osborne. A week ago we asked the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) whether she was prepared to use her office to intervene in the parole proceedings of Dwayne Archie Johnston. I would like to ask the acting minister to table in this House today what action the minister has taken with respect to this matter. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Acting Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I wish to thank the member for that very pertinent question. I believe the Minister of Justice at the time, if my recollection serves me correctly, made a commitment or indicated her position with respect to that matter, and I will so take as notice his question today as to what action has been taken since. I will take that as notice on behalf of the Attorney General (Mrs. Vodrey). Mr.

Robinson: Madam Speaker, to the same minister, given that it is the Solicitor General, not the Minister of Justice, at the federal level who is responsible for this matter, I am wondering if the minister could indicate and check with the Justice minister that proper procedures are being undertaken to request intervener status in this very important matter. Mr. Praznik: Certainly the question that the member raises is a very important one to the people of our province, and I will take his question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Justice. Mr.

Robinson: Given that the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry stated that the murder of Helen Betty Osborne clearly was motivated by racism, and the flawed investigation and prosecution was also motivated at least in part by racism, what is the minis ter prepared to do to ensure that the racist policies of the past which allowed Dwayne Archie Johnston and his accomplices to avoid the trial for 16 years will not be compounded by the early release of Dwayne Archie Johnston? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, again to the member on this very important matter, I will take his question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Justice and Attorney General. University of Manitoba Labour Dispute Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, to say that there is a great deal of concern about the strike situation at the University of Manitoba is an understatement. There are more than 20,000 students across this province, concerned families, and it also impacts on off-campus programs such as the Access program in Thompson for the Social Work faculty.

What I would like to ask the minister, since earlier in Question Period she confirmed that she has written to the Faculty Association but has only through her deputy made any contact with the board of governors, I am wondering if the minister would listen to the pleas of many students and family members and this weekend take personal, direct action by sitting down with all the parties involved and discussing any way, whether it be arbitration or any other way, of solving this dispute as soon as possible. Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I indicate to the member that the previous member asked if I had written to both sides, and I have said I have written to the one side that has walked out on the students, and I have through my deputy written to the other side. I have been in contact by telephone, Madam Speaker, to talk to the chairman of the board of governors and asked that the board of governors do everything in its power to ameliorate any impact of the professors' actions negatively on the students. [interjection] It is really hard to hear sometimes.

I know you appreciate that. I am going to carry on over the comments. I indicate to the member for Thompson and I appreciate his concern because I hope we would all share concern first for the students, not the bias that they are displaying, which is pretty clear, but I think, Madam Speaker, the member for Thompson should realize that I have indicated since this began, as soon as the strike was called, I am most willing to meet with any of the parties who would like to meet with me at

October 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4071 any time that they would like to meet with me, but I will not impose myself or thrust myself upon them unwillingly. As I say, the students have been asking to meet with me and I have met with them and will continue to meet with any group. Mr. Ashton: With a supplementary question: I would like to ask the minister if she can explain her comments earlier in Question Period in which she indicated that from her experience as a school trustee, she has difficulty with arbitration. *

(1040) Why is this minister refusing to consider arbitration, a mechanism that would allow the students to get back to their classes immediately and result in a settlement brought in by an arbitrator that will be fair to both sides? Why will you not bring in arbitration? Mrs.

Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, first of all, it is not my decision, but, secondly, in reference to clarify the remarks that he made, and I think they are important remarks and an important principle to understand, arbitrators have put in writing and have made it very clear that if they are dealing with the public purse there is unlimited ability to pay. You can either go to the taxpayers or you can assess fees. That has been clear precedent-setting in my personal experience as a school trustee. That is something that is made clear.

Unlike when you arbitrate with private companies where there is a finite number of dollars, arbitrators traditionally and historically take the position that there is an unlimited ability to pay by either raising taxes or raising fees. That is a fact. As to whether or not a decision to put an arbitrator in place, only one side has asked for it and that decision would rest with the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews), not with the Minister of Education. Mr.

Ashton: Well, Madam Speaker, can the minister then confirm, based on her answer in this House today, that the real reason this government will not bring in arbitration is because it is afraid of what kind of settlement is ahead? In other words, this government has a political agenda which comes ahead of the needs of the students and their families in the province of Manitoba. Mrs.

Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, I am responding to questions put, and as the member for Thompson, who just asked a series of questions, knows, on the earlier question I was asked for my opinion as to-I was told and asked to comment upon the fact that in the opinion of the opposition, binding arbitration would be the ideal solution. In my response, I indicated that in my experience in the school board area, it has not always been the best solution. The decision of whether or not to go to arbitration is a request that would have to come from both parties and be decided by the Minister of Labour.

But, Madam Speaker, I indicate to the member that the professors have indicated and have stated that this is not about money. So if he is believing what the professors are saying, then the point that he raises is totally irrelevant. They are saying it is about academic freedom. There are some who feel that perhaps it is really freedom for unlimited job security, but that is a matter the two parties will have to decide together.

The fact is the university feels the need to have to downsize and the profs agree there is that need to get rid of irrelevant programs, courses that people do not want to register for, and in review of the $220-million cut we are going to see from the feds. Forest Fires Firefighting Procedures Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. Has the department made any changes in forest firefighting policies in light of the tragic deaths this past summ er, along with the two high-risk evacuations from Leaf Rapids. Bon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the record of the department in fighting forest fires has been really good over many years. Unfortunately, we did have that accident this year.

4072 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 1995 Situations of that nature are being reviewed all the time, and if there are changes required in terms ofhow we fight forest fires, I have to say we have very capable people out there, our record has been very good, and I will take the specifics as notice to see whether any changes have been recommended because of the investigation. Mr. Jennissen: Madam Speaker, I thank the minister. Firefighting Costs Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Could the minister, for the record, give to this House the total cost of forest firefighting in Manitoba this summer and Manitoba's portion of that? Bon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the forest firefighting figure that we have at the present time is a shade over $29 million. We have a subtraction of approximately $2 million where we have cost-recovery from other provinces that we have assisted with, so the net figure is, I believe, around the $26 million-something for fighting forest fires. Leaf Rapids, Manitoba Fire Insurance Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary question is to the Government Set vices minister. Given the difficulties many residents of Leaf Rapids have had getting fire insurance prior to and after the forest fires this summer, has the Minister of Government Services reviewed this situation to investigate what can be done to assist the people affected? Bon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): I thank the member for the question.

Our department has worked very closely with the residents of the Leaf Rapids area and other unfortunate victims of both flooding and fires this past year, and I believe that the claims that have been submitted from the member's area and every other private claim in this province have now been dealt with. Some claims remain to be settled in terms of the dollar amounts because of repairs still to be undertaken, but for the most part, I believe the claims have been processed.

As far as the issues of insurance and so on, the member can certainly bring to my attention if he has any specific incidents of concern, and we will be happy to deal with those in our department on an individual basis. Museums Funding Ms. Diane McGitTord (Osborne): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Last week I asked the minister about the Department of Canadian Heritage's Museum Assistance Program cuts and the effects on Manitoba museums.

The minister spoke of regular meetings with Manitoba's museums and giving museums "whatever support we can within our resources." That is a quotation. I would like to ask the minister today if he was able to assure the AMM and others that his government would not follow the federal policy by cutting its grants to museums? Bon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for the question.

We have worked with many groups that our department relates to, and we have been able to maintain our support through this budget for museums, for other groups that come under this department like libraries. We are very pleased that, while the federal and municipal governments have been withdrawing funding, we have been able to maintain our resources. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, with one very short question. Ms. McGitTord: Madam Speaker, has the minister communicated with his federal counterpart and expressed his concern for the future of Manitoba's

October 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4073 museums and heritage? If so, what has resulted from this communication? Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, I, along with other ministers across the country, have been attempting to communicate with the federal minister. I am pleased, after over two years of trying, that we are going to have a ministerial meeting later this year in western Canada. *

(1050) Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: Order, please. I have a ruling for the House. I am ruling on a matter taken under advisement by the Deputy Speaker during debate of Bill 28, on Thursday, October 5, 1995. A point of order was raised by the honourable Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pallister) about words used by the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) in reference to the honourable Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh).

The Minister of Government Services, in raising his point of order, said that the member for Elmwood was making a personal attack on the Minister of Education and made reference to Beauchesne and unparliamentary language. In reviewing the Hansard, I find that the words spoken by the member for Elmwood immediately before the point of order raised were: "it is obvious to me that the member for Assiniboia would not get herself into so much trouble if she did not have such a thin skin.

In the political life that we are in, one learns to develop a thick skin in this business." In my opinion, the words complained of do not constitute unparliamentary language nor a personal attack on the member; therefore I find there is no point of order. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Aboriginal Youth Achievement Awards Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Family Services have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, last evening I was privileged to attend the second annual Aboriginal Youth Achievement Awards, hosted by Anishnaabe Oway-Ishi. The event honoured those who have made a difference, in other words, young people who have demonstrated their commitment to a drug-, alcohol- and violenc e-free society and truly are role models and leaders within the aboriginal community. The entertainment and other portions of the evening were also examples of young people who stand out as a credit to their families, their communities and all those who have been influential in their lives.

The honour ceremony where the 14 recipients stood solemnly, holding aloft their eagle feathers while the traditional prayer was offered by Art and Joseph Shofley, was truly inspiring. I am delighted to offer congratulations to the young people who have learned, and I quote the keynote speaker Allen McLeod: The past does not have to equal the future and that it is possible to break free from self-imposed limitations and baggage. Madam Speaker, there were 80 young people nominated for the award categories, and 14 were ultimately chosen by the 36-member selection teams.

Those who have made a difference were: Anita Crate and Deanna Kimball in the academic category; Aaron Peters and Brian Clyne in the artistic category; Victor Tssessaze and Neebin Noodin Singers in the cultural category; Spring Squires and Lisa Monkman in the community volunteer category; Shannan Nepinak and

4074 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 1995 Murray Monkman in the athletic category; Rena McLeod and Sydney Stove in the personal achievement category; Brian McLeod in the business entrepreneurial category; and Adam Kennedy in the traditional employment category. I know many members of the House were present last evening at the awards ceremony. It was one of the most touching events I have attended, and I want to congratulate all of those who organized and all of the recipients of the awards. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Rupertsland have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) for her kind words. As an aboriginal person, as a member of a First Nation, one of the sacred elements in our communities is our young people, and we are told by our forebears, our elders, to always show respect to the young people. It is told in our tradition that the two most important elements in our societies are our elders and our youth.

We must nurture our youth and provide them with the proper guidance and direction, so that they will fulfill the role that they have to fulfill in the future, either as leaders or as doctors or as nurses, whatever their profession may be in the time to come. It is our responsibility to provide that direction and to assist in a guidance delivery for our youth.

I would like to thank the minister for her kind words with respect to the Aboriginal Youth Achievement A wards, the second annual put on by the Anishnaabe Oway-Ishi program, and a number of other people who are also involved, including Leslie Spillett and Dan Highway. We on this side of the House, as well, would like to congratulate the people that the minister named off, including Anita, Deanna, Aaron, Brian, Victor, Spring, Lisa, Shannon, Murray, Rena, Sydney, Adam and Brian.

I think this is truly reflective of the positive things that aboriginal people are contributing to society, and I think that our future does indeed look very bright, especially with the young people who were honoured last night. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for The Maples have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): On behalf of the Liberal members of this Legislature, I would also like to add our congratulations to the nominees and award recipients of the Aboriginal Youth A wards last night that we attended, also the organizers.

It was a very large event and it must have taken a lot of work to put on such an event, and the organizers should be congratulated. As the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) mentioned, it was a very touching event. What I found interesting was that all the award recipients talked about some adult in their lives that touched them and assisted them and, as a result, they were able to achieve things that possibly they would not have without a caring adult in their lives. I also found it interesting that several of the award winners talked about their future objectives to become police officers.

I saw a large contingent from both the RCMP and the Winnipeg Police Services there, and it shows there is a growing bond between the aboriginal community and the law enforcement community in this province. Once again, my congratulations to both the award recipients and all the nominees. Thank you. Canadian Highland Dance Interprovincial Championships Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, I wonder if I might have leave to make a nonpolitical statement.

October 20, I9 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4075 Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wellington have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, in July of this year, Kirsten Henry of Strathcona Street in the constituency of Wellington represented Manitoba as the II -and under champion at the Canadian Highland Dance Interprovincial Championships held in London, Ontario. Kirsten did exceptionally well, coming home with I7 medals.

She was the only medal winner from Manitoba in the I I-and-under category and one of only five Manitoba medallists out of the IS -member team. Kirsten, who is 10 and is a student at Clifton School, has been dancing since she was three years old. According to her mother, she never has to be coaxed to practise, to go to classes or to perform. She just loves to dance.

I ask all members of the Legislature to join me in congratulating Kirsten, who is in the public gallery today, not only on her remarkable achievement at the Canadian Interprovincial Championships, but also on her love of Highland dancing and her commitment to her sport. There are many, many young people like Kirsten, and we recognized I4 of them today in earlier nonpolitical statements in our province, and it is a pleasure to acknowledge her as one of whom we are all very proud. Thank you. Bill Arnott Housing Complex Opening Mr.

Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for The Maples have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Kowalski: Yesterday, along with the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), I attended the opening of the Bill Amott housing complex in the constituency of The Maples on Watson Street. This is a housing complex for the physically challenged.

Bill Amott and his board first had worked on another housing complex called Tranquility Place on Watson Street, twenty-five units designed to meet the needs of those who are physically challenged, with low counters, wide doors, large spaces, that allow people who are physically challenged to live with dignity and be self-sufficient. In attending the opening, I noted the pride of the residents there, many of them coming from places where they had inadequate housing, that they were now self-sufficient and they had dignity, and they spoke of it.

This housing complex was a joint effort of the provincial government and the federal government, which had representatives there, along with Michael O'S haughnessy, the city councillor. I think Bill Amott and his board deserve a mention in this Legislature of the good work they have done to add to the dignity and self-reliance of these people. Thank you, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I have several items of House business.

Firstly, for the Committee on Economic Development that is meeting on Tuesday, October 24, at 10 a.m., I would like to refer the I9 93 Annual Report of A.E. McKenzie Co. Ltd. I would also like to refer the 19 93 Report of the Manitoba Mineral Resources Ltd. to that committee as well. I am not sure if the I9 94 Report of Manitoba Mineral Resources has yet been tabled, but, should it be tabled, then I would have it referred as well. So that deals with Economic Development for Tuesday, October 24 at 10 a.m.

Next, Madam Speaker, I advise the House that the Standing Committee on Economic Development will sit again this afternoon at I :30 p.m. to continue consideration ofBill2 and, in the event that work is not

4076 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 19 95 concluded in that committee this afternoon at 1 :30 p.m., I would call the committee again for nine o'clock on Monday morning, the Standing Committee on Economic Development, to continue consideration of Bill 2. For Tuesday, October 24 at 7 p.m., I would call the Standing Committee on Law Amendments to consider Bills 4, 9, 11 , 12 and 25.

Then, Madam Speaker, on Wednesday, October 25, at 7 p.m., we will call the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs to consider Bills 5, 6, 17 and 22. * (110 0) Madam Speaker, would you call bills as listed in the Order Paper. Committee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) for the member for Charleswood (Mr. Ernst), the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) for the member for Morris (Mr.

Pitura), the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) for the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), and the member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan) for the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 8-The OtT-Road Vehicles Amendment Act Madam Speaker: To resume debate on second reading, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Highways (Mr. Findlay), The Off-Road Vehicles Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les vehicules a caractere non routier) standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Speaker: Stand. Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? Yes or no. Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows? Yes? Agreed? Leave? Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): There is no leave. Madam Speaker: Thank you. Leave has been denied. The honourable member for The Pas. [interjection] Flin Fion. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, it was indeed close enough.

Thank you for allowing me to speak very briefly on Bill 8, The Off-Road Vehicles Amendment Act. I am happy to note that the minister and the government are aware of both the positive and the negative aspects posed by The Off-Road Vehicles Act as we see more and more off-road vehicles being used in this province. As more and more of these vehicles come into use, more and more young people will be tempted to use them. Many of these people are underage, certainly far below the age of 16 . This is an area that was not well regulated in the past.

In fact, in the North, it was not uncommon to see children as young as four and five on off-road vehicles. I do not see that as much any more, but still it is quite often the case that six-year-olds and eight-year-olds are driving off-road vehicles. That, of course, gives everybody some concern because often these children drive these vehicles at excessive speeds, and it is very dangerous. We all know that there are many, many accidents, and we would like to reduce that figure as much as possible.

Therefore, I personally do not have serious difficulty with this bill and give it my cautious and conditional support. I suppose, when one is concerned with recreational driving, we want to keep it recreational and not put too many roadblocks in the way. We do not want too many laws that are onerous and burdensome on the recreational driver. In the North, for example, off-road

October 20, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4077 vehicles are not primarily recreational. I would say they are more functional than recreational. In many of the northern communities, few roads or no roads exist, and off-road vehicles are absolutely a necessity now that dog teams are not used anymore. In fact, often now they are the only mode of travel because roads do not exist or there are very few roads. These vehicles are extremely useful for trappers, for hunters, for fishermen and so on. Our concern is that very young children often use them, and this leads to problems.

I could not help noticing, when I visited Churchill about a month ago with some of my honourable colleagues, there was a four-wheeler or an off-road vehicle in front of every apartment, in front of every house. So they are considered the regular vehicle of the North where roads do not exist. They are not primarily recreational. That is why I feel some tension about this bill.

On the one hand, it is certainly addressing safety and registration concerns, and I agree with that but, on the other hand, it might be construed as interference with the more freewheeling lifestyle that is characteristic of northern Manitoba. In those isolated northern communities, even young children use the so-called off-road vehicles. They use them for going to school, for going shopping, for visiting, for fishing, for hunting chicken whatever. They are the vehicle of choice. In many ways, the off-road vehicles in northern Manitoba have replaced the dog team, as I mentioned earlier.

In the southern portion of this province, the off-road vehicle is more purely a recreational vehicle, and these laws certainly apply 100 percent. I believe that was probably the reason why off-road vehicles were invented in the first place, for the kind of conditions that exist in southern Manitoba. But it so happens that off-road vehicles are being used in northern Manitoba, not primarily as recreational vehicles but as functional vehicles. In the North, they have been adapted to very practical uses.

So, while I give my conditional support to this bill, I am aware that in some parts of this province the bill may be viewed as too stringent and onerous. However, I am aware that we cannot have two sets of laws regarding off-road vehicles; one for the North and one for the South. As much as I might want that, I do not think it is practical, and therefore we support this bill. There is nothing really contentious about other aspects of the bill and even northerners I think will eventually give it their grudging approval. The bill does put more responsibility on the owners of off-road vehicles.

The bill also attempts to make the rules for off-road vehicles similar to those for regular vehicles. The long-promised staggered registration for regular vehicles which finally came into effect with the 1995-1 996 season will be extended to off-road vehicles under Bill 8. As well, owners of off-road vehicles will become legally responsible for ensuring that there is current and valid registration on their off-road vehicles and use of such vehicles by anyone. Another

section of the bill raises the amount of the property damage threshold required to be reported to the police from $500 to $1 ,000. Apparently, most of the damage done in off-road vehicle accidents is well in excess of $1 ,000. In fact, I believe the minister pointed out that this figure exceeds that of regular vehicles in most cases. As the minister noted in his speech, this makes the reporting of off-road vehicle accidents consistent with reporting of automobile accidents. It puts Manitoba in line with most of the other provinces.

Other sections give the registrar the power to suspend registration for a reasonable cause and to deny registration to owners who issue NSF cheques or where full payment was not made. Now, the bill was first brought forward in 1994 and is being brought forward again. We give it our cautious support, Madam Speaker. I know it will not be popular in the North, but I think it is one of those bills that is necessary. Thank you. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Very briefly, Madam Speaker, we support the bill and understand

4078 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 1995 that the legislation responds to requests from MPIC for further amendments. The registrant of a motor vehicle now will be given the power to cancel the registration of an off-road vehicle in the event ofthe indebtedness by the owner to MPIC or the registrant. Secondly, the amendment provides for a staggered renewal of registration for off-road vehicles and, as I indicated, we do not have any problems supporting the bill. Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 8.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, rather than call the bills as listed in the Order Paper, if you would call Bills 10, 21 and 28, then the balance of the bills as listed on the Order Paper, it would facilitate the business of the House. Bill tO-The Development Corporation Amendment Act Madam Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), Bill lO, The Development Corporation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Societe de developpement), standing in the name of the honourable member for Crescentwood, who has 12 minutes remaining, and standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). * (1 1 10) Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson? Leave? [interjection] I am aware the honourable member for Crescentwood wants to complete probably a portion or all of his 12 minutes remaining. What I need to clarify first is if the bill should remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson. An Honourable Member: No.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. Leave has been denied. Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, as I said, I will be the final speaker on this bill on our side of the House, and we are prepared to, at the conclusion of my remarks, pass the bill through for the public to make comments on the legislation if they so desire. In concluding our comments on this motion, we are concerned that the effect of the amendment is to place civil servants entirely in charge of the Manitoba Development Corporation and its function on behalf of government.

We are concerned that the corporation is not audited by the Provincial Auditor when it will be operated entirely within departmental ambit and within the direction of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. We believe that it should not be discretionary to allow the audit of this important corporation to be in the hands of a private auditor. So, Madam Speaker, those are our concerns. We will look forward to hearing from the public and to clause by-clause debate. Thank you. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux {Inkster): Just very briefly, Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Development Corporation is mandated to encourage the development of industry in the province by providing financial assistance to the existing or newly forming industrial enterprises as well as advise technical assistance and assistance in the cultivation of export markets. Under the current legislation there must be seven to 12 members on the board, all but one operating at arm's length from the government.

The Development Corporation Act exclusively, as an agent of government, its activity is subject to the direction and approval of government through Order s-in-Council. Because of this it is felt that the size of the composition of the board no longer reflects the realities of the operations of the corporation. Accordingly, an amendment provides that the board now will comprise of from three to five members with no restrictions on the characteristics of the members

October 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4079 save that they shall not be elected members of the Legislative Assembly nor members of the House of Commons or the Senate. Another amendment will preclude the general manager or the chair of the board being the same person. Additional civil servants will now be allowed to act as officers of and perform services for the corporation. This is something that has been provided for me in terms of as a further explanation for my benefits. Having reported that, Madam Speaker, we have no problem in terms of passing it to committee.

Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading, Bill I 0, The Development Corporation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur Ia Societe de developpement). Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Bill 21-The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act. Madam Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), Bill 21, The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les obligations de developpement rural), standing in the name of the honourable member for Wolseley. Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? Some Honourable Members: No. Madam Speaker: Leave has been denied. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, I just want to put a few words on the record related to this particular piece of legislation, Bill 21, The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act. There are two major changes that were brought about by this particular piece of legislation.

One is that the bond corporations will be obligated to have a young director under the age of 30 on their board. There are also some changes which will call for the streamlining of the application process. We support the changes put forward, and we would just like to go on record as once again demonstrating our support for the Grow Bond Program as we have expressed on past occasions in this Chamber. We are concerned, however, about some of the actions ofthe minister when it comes to the approval process and the political interference by this minister.

However, I do want to speak about a particular project in Selkirk, and that was the Sterling crests. I want to commend the area residents who set up the Grow Bond committee and who purchased the bonds which were able to produce an additional 18 jobs in our community. I understand that was so successful that the company is considering, or I believe they are at the moment seeking additional funds under the program so they can once again expand their operation, creating more employment for area residents, and we do support that concept.

A few years ago the community leaders in Selkirk approached the provincial Grow Bond Program to fund the development on the Selkirk docks. They were calling it at the time the Robinson Harbour development proposal. They approached the government to see if there would be funding, Grow Bond support for that particular project. At that time, they did not receive the support, and that would have been a true asset to our community to have the docks in Selkirk further developed.

There is a project there now sponsored by the Kiwanis Club seniors housing which is enhancing that area, an area that we are quite proud of in our community, an area that has great potential for tourism development. This community group at that time was pushing a project that would develop a hotel complex, a convention complex in this very important area. The problem is that the bond did not receive the support of

4080 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 1995 the government, but a similar project in Steinbach was eligible for Grow Bond support and we were very disappointed with that particular decision of the government. However, overall, as we said before, we do support the concept and we support the changes brought forward by the government to allow younger individuals to sit on the boards. We know that the future of Manitoba rests with our young people and it is important to have their being active participants in the decisions of our economy, and this would allow them to do so.

We understand that this is a program that has been copied or designed after one that has been in Saskatchewan, that has been fairly successful, so we do support that. Madam Speaker, as I mentioned, there are some success stories, and we do support that, but the concept of the Grow Bond Program, we realize that there were some cases that we disagreed with.

We hope that the minister has listened to our concerns in the past and we hope that this particular piece oflegislation will address some of those concerns, but I believe that it is a good program and the government does have our support to continue with this program throughout Manitoba. Thank you. Mr.

Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to be able to rise today and make some comments on Bill 21, The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act. * (112 0) I think, as my colleague has indicated, the Grow Bond issue here in the province in certain aspects has been fairly successful in the way that it has given opportunity to certain communities that have the ability to be able to form a group to provide a corporation that would be eligible in obtaining Grow Bonds to support an industry or support a project within its community, Madam Speaker, and looking over the Annual Report of Rural Development, it is interesting that we see the Grow Bond issues that have been put through already, some many million dollars this year alone, I see it is almost $3 million, and it has been a tremendous boost for certain communities in certain areas.

I would wish and I would say that I would like to see perhaps the Grow Bond issues themselves be perhaps a little easier to obtain for communities, Madam Speaker, that perhaps do not have the resources available to provide for a large corporation or a large industry. There are many communities in rural Manitoba, in northern Manitoba, that could in fact use something like a Grow Bond issue to improve their economic resources and development in their communities and do not have the resources to be able to tie in. The Rural Development Bond Act has a few changes and amendments put forth, No.

I, which I feel is a great opportunity for Grow Bond corporations to be able to stay on with the viability of a Grow Bond issue and that is that a corporation is obliged to have a young director under the age of 30. I feel that that is a promising scope of the Grow Bond corporations.

I think that is probably where we have to look towards the future, and that is getting our younger people in our communities involved in providing economic development and providing sustainable development in a community, and that is having the younger people not only obligated to support the communities, Madam Speaker, but the opportunity so that we are not seeing the same old thing happen in a community, the same people doing things and eventually burning out. I think that this amendment, this one, is a promising one.

I think it will be very favourable and provide, as I have said, that opportunity for the young people, the young entrepreneur to get involved in putting together some sort of feasible project that will benefit not only the area but will benefit many throughout, whether it be through jobs, whether it be through economic growth.

Perhaps, Madam Speaker, with this in place it will provide the opportunity for not only just one, not only for one board member or director to be under the age of 30 or have a specific age that he or she would be obligated or would be available to enter into such a corporation, I think when we are talking about bringing the younger people or younger people into corporations such as this and into situations such as a Grow Bond

October 20, I9 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 408 I issue, it would open up the scope in the community to see that the younger people or those who are starting out in some business at a younger age than some others in the area, it would open the eyes up of other younger people, and say, well, let us get involved more then. Let us get involved with this, let us get a corporation together, let us pick a specific issue, let us pick a specific project and let us go on with it. Madam Speaker, the bill also has other changes which the minister has indicated will streamline the efficiency of the Grow Bond issues.

I tend to, in one way, agree that, yes, we should streamline something that has been in place for a couple of years now, something that has the potential to grow, something that has the potential to make it easier for communities and people in the communities who are wanting to get involved with Grow Bond issues, much simpler. But making it simpler and having certain control over the Grow Bond issue are two different things, I think. You make something easier to obtain on one hand, and on the other hand, perhaps, you have too much control and too much say as to how you can get this Grow Bond issue.

So I worry about that, and I say that because, even though the minister indicates that this amendment to Bill 2I is going to be easier and there is too much red tape, too much bureaucracy, we are going to have more control right at the senior level, the senior level being the minister himself. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Reading through the act and reading through the summaries of the act, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I see that the minister's name has been included upwards of over I 0 times, I 0 to 20 times more in this amendment do we see that certain parts of the applications, of the issue itself, of the use of the bonds, are going to be under the specific control of the minister. Now, some aspects, perhaps, yes, we could say, okay, let us get on with it, it is a good Grow Bond issue, it needs to go ahead much quicker, the community is involved.

Then I can understand something going ahead without the red tape, without too much bureaucracy, without having to cross the t's and dot the i's in the application forms and in the process of applying. But we also have to consider-and I hope that the minister is considering this-we must also be careful about how much power and how much control a specific signature or specific person, cabinet minister, would have in deciding what is a good Grow Bond issue, what is not a good Grow Bond issue, where it is, who it is, and I have a problem with that.

We tend to have too much control about a certain particular issue, and if the power lies too, too much in the hands of one person, I think that that could create a problem. It may not, but the potential is there. We have to consider that. We have to consider that fact, that perhaps with the minister's stroke of the pen, an issue might not even reach the process stage as far as application. Now, yes, there may be too many steps in between the initial start of the issue and the community itself and the minister. But I wonder what will determine the minister's decision.

How will it be determined, whether he accepts or denies a certain application for a certain area. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I fear that we may see communities being denied Grow Bond issues for reasons only known to the minister. We may see communities having to go through the process even more by trying to convince the minister that the proposed issue that they want does satisfy the minister's conditions.

Now, on the other hand, we may see someone coming flying through the back door and on the way from the back door to the front door, the stroke of the minister's pen crosses the application and away we go, and they get the issue, they get the Grow Bond. Now, that is what I have a problem with. So I say to the minister that now with all this control that he is going to have with this-and, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I say control-! say that I remember a bill that the honourable member for Lakeside (Mr.

Enns) put in some years ago and on just about every page of the amendment on the act, it said, the minister will be able to do this, the minister will be able to do that, the minister will be able to control that, the minister will control the sunset, daylight, nighttime hour. I remember that.

4082 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 1995 * (113 0) I remember the Minister of Natural Resources at that time, the member for Lakeside, I said to him, how can the minister have so much control over one issue. At that time we gave him the little nickname of King Harry. It just seemed like everything that was going to be done in that act was going to be controlled by the minister. I certainly hope that this minister is not going to become King Len.

I certainly hope that this minister considers the importance, and I am sure he does, I am sure he knows the importance that in his department the Grow Bond issue is an important part, is providing the resources for rural communities to invest in their own areas and invest with entrepreneurs and is an economic boost for their area. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I also wanted to indicate here today that the Grow Bond issue, since its inception and also that this program was basically copied from Saskatchewan's program in that it has been able to provide that extra little boost for certain communities, certain communities again, to rebuild their certain powers in certain communities. When I look at the Grow Bond issues and where they have specifically gone- An Honourable Member: Where have they gone? Tell me where they have gone. I want to know. Mr.

Clif Evans: Well, in the report for '94-95, eight bond corporations were formed, Angusville, Southport, Killarney, Souris, Waskada and Elie, but I also say, and I am proud to say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Gilbert International in Arborg and Westman Plastics in Dauphin. So it has provided not all but some rural communities with the availability to get a Grow Bond issue, and also, in the previous year, I might want to add, 3,400,000 were approved for Rivers, for Russell, for Portage Ia Prairie, for Morris and three in Winkler and one in Selkirk. So, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I say, what I am trying to get to is the fact that, with this specific control now, the minister wants to improve the bureaucracy, to get things moving, to be able to provide for the communities, certainly-and I do not have the percentage here, but if you look at eight and eight, say 16, about 19 , I believe, issues were put out. Nineteen Grow Bond projects have been approved, and they have raised $7. 1 million and have generated over $21 million more. Now, that indicates that the program can and will and should work. The member for Morris (Mr. Pitura) says it does. Perhaps it does.

My other problem that I have -the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) is interestingly trying to listen in on this-is the problem that out of the 19 Grow Bonds-and I understand, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that it is up to the communities or up to the entrepreneurs to put the application in, up to the certain areas to do it, but approved out of 19, I would say somewhere only about four are from any- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I am having great difficulty hearing the honourable member. There is an awful lot of sidebar conversations going on. Could they be held either in the loge or out in the hall, please. Mr.

Clif Evans: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As I was saying-[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Clif Evans: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to finish my comments on Bill 21, and I would certainly ask you to call the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) and to call the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) to quit jabbering while we are trying to debate this bill, so we can get it done and on to committee. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does have a point of order.

If the honourable member for Elmwood and the honourable member for Gimli want to carry on a conversation, they can do so in the loge. ***

October 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4083 Mr. ClifEvans: You know, it is at times very difficult for members on this side to sometimes support something that they feel is a good thing for this province and a Grow Bond Program is a good thing. I think you will not hear any complaints from our rule members on this side about the Grow Bond issue, its reality, and that it is there and that it is good. However, again I am trying to say-[interjection] The member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) says, how come not in Riverton.

I know the community of Riverton is trying to work towards a Grow Bond issue and trying to find a good project to deal with. Hopefully we will be coming to the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) in the next few weeks to discuss certain projects that might be available under the Grow Bond issue. If the minister, once he has all this control, with the stroke of a pen sees fit to allow the community of Riverton or the community of Gypsumville or the community of Fisher Branch-[ interjection] Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): For you, anything. Mr.

Clif Evans: The Minister of Rural Development says, for me, anything. That is very pleasing to know that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is pleasing. But I want to indicate to honourable members here the situation with the Grow Bond issues. I certainly hope that we will be able to have provided to the communities in rural Manitoba a better open-door policy with this minister when it comes to Grow Bond issues or the REDI or any of the other programs that we see in the Rural Development Department. The Rural Development Department has increased substantially in finances,· in budget.

We know that the big increase in the budget of the Rural Development Department has come of course from the VL T revenues. So on that side of it I say, when VL Ts were brought in they were going to go back to rural Manitoba; not southern rural Manitoba; not western rural Manitoba but to rural Manitoba. * (114 0) The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) says what do I have against southern Manitoba. Absolutely nothing. What I am trying to indicate is the monies that are in the Rural Development budget come from rural Manitoba I would say that it would be in the best interest of the Minister of Rural Development (Mr.

Derkach) to always seriously consider where the money that he is providing as backup, if you call it, for Grow Bond issues is coming from other areas and all areas of rural Manitoba. So if there is a Grow Bond issue that hopefully can be provided or used in northern Manitoba that the minister seriously consider that issue and seriously consider the fact that there are those people that want to bring this in and want to have something in their community that is going to benefit them for the future. I certainly hope that.

And I certainly hope that under this amendment that the younger people get involved, the younger entrepreneurs in our communities, because that availability of the younger people and the younger entrepreneurs in certain areas of rural Manitoba is diminishing. It is diminishing. The communities in my constituency are gripping at the doors of opportunity, wanting to be able to develop something in their communities. An Honourable Member: Ho-hum, ho-hum. Mr. Clif Evans: Well, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Driedger) says, ho-hum, but the Minister of Natural Resources, I do not see him getting up and saying anything about how he is not getting anything in his area through any department. They just finished building a highway through his constituency that he initiated. An Honourable Member: That is the difference between government and being in opposition. Mr. Clif Evans: I want to quote that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Minister ofNatural Resources says that is the difference between being in government and being in opposition.

This is the attitude of this minister and some members of this government, not all, but some who say, if you are not government your

4084 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 19 95 constituency is going to get nothing. Shame. That is absolute shame and that is going to be on record that this minister and any other minister that wants to say that, we will make sure that everybody is aware of this. This minister who does not even know how to control his own department tells me that if I am not in government I do not get anything for my constituents. He cannot run his own department. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am saying I have been trying here to provide some encouragement for the bill and what am I getting?

Abuse from the Minister of Natural Resources. I do not hear any abuse from the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), even though he is going to have a lot of control over the Grow Bond issues and taking away the bureaucracy and everything else. Well, that may be well and fine for the Minister of Rural Development and it may be fine for the Minister of Natural Resources or anybody else, but I think it is reprehensible that anyone makes comments like the Minister ofNatural Resources made, comments that are on record.

I will always listen to other comments that other ministers or backbenchers want to say about things like that. We are all one province and we are all, 57 members of this Assembly, trying to do what is best for the people of Manitoba, all of Manitoba, rural or urban, Interlake or Dauphin, Pembina or Morris. It does not matter.

Through the Rural Development department I think is an opportunity to work together with the rural members along with the Minister of Rural Development, to work together with all rural members and the communities to be able to provide that economic boost that we so need in northern and rural areas so that we can-whether it be the Grow Bond issue or whether it be any other resource that the department has-come to this government and come to this minister, whether it be through their elected officials, not having to worry that they are not going to get a Grow Bond issue or they are not going to get something from the REDI program because the government says if you are not Tory blue, you are not going to get anything.

That is garbage, and I have heard too much of that from certain members across the way. An Honourable Member: Remember when Downey said, you did not vote right. Remember that? Mr. Clif Evans: I want to make a comment. Yes, the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) made a comment that we are not-check the boundaries, because if it is not Tory country, it is not getting anything. We do not know how to vote in rural and northern areas. Well, I say, shame to that, too. The Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) again-and I am going to visit his constituency tomorrow.

Unfortunately, it is Friday but I will certainly be sending copies of Hansard to the people in his constituency about the comments that he has made, and tomorrow I will also be expressing my concerns about how that minister, how that representative represents the province of Manitoba as the Natural Resources minister when he says, if you do not vote for me, you do not get anything. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am just wanting to say- An Honourable Member: Then say it. Mr. ClifEvans: I think I have said it. I can say more if you would like to hear it about the actions of your government. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I have allowed a little bit of discrepancy here, but the honourable member should relate to the bill which is before the House at this time. We would ask that you be relevant. Mr. ClifEvans: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thought I was. We were talking about rural Manitoba and Grow Bond issues and the attitude of a certain minister when it comes to this. Maybe this minister does not believe in Grow Bonds. Maybe we should ask the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) whether his cabinet colleague does not believe in Grow Bonds or does not believe in the REDI program.

Let us just say, looking at some of the Grow Bond issues that have already been put out, it seems like this

October 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4085 minister and others are knocking at the Rural Development minister's door saying, we voted Tory, let us get it. I am sure that minister and others have been doing it because I do feel-and I have said it to the Minister of Rural Development-very strongly about some of the programs and projects the Department of Rural Development has within its resources. I am saying that we should improve on that for all of Manitoba, for all of the rural areas. If it is available, then make it available. [interjection] Well, the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr.

McAlpine) likes to, again, chirp off about nothing, does not know anything, does not know how to get out of the Perimeter. I just want to say that certain amendments to this bill I do have a problem with, not a very serious problem but a problem, and I will want to work with the Minister of Rural Development to make sure that he does not have too much control.

I worry about this word "control." I do want to say that the other aspects of the bill, the under age-under 30, I am sorry, availability to young people to get involved, the fact that perhaps streamlining the application process and getting everything in place for a Grow Bond issue and a project, I think we can live with. I think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that as long as we do get the co-operation in all rural areas from this government, we do not have a problem.

I just certainly hope that we do not get this problem that the Minister of Natural Resources has when it comes to where you are from and who you are and how you vote. Areas in rural Manitoba south, west, east and north are very important to this province, and as long as members on that side remember that-and I know, and I say this on the record, I am sure the Minister of Rural Development will always consider that when he decides or provides resources for areas in our province. * (115 0) Mr.

Deputy Speaker, unless someone else wants to debate this, I feel that we should continue with the Grow Bond issues and make an effort to make everything available for rural Manitobans. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Mr. Deputy Speaker, as a rural member, I am pleased to be able to be able to stand for a few minutes and talk a little bit about a program that directly affects my constituents in the Dauphin area and, indeed, throughout the Parkland. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do have a couple of worries about Bill 21. On the surface, I think that the Grow Bond issue can be very positive for rural Manitoba.

I think it has, in fact, produced some good results for those of our constituency who do live in rural Manitoba. Just the one example that I could think of that has a direct bearing in my constituency is the announcement that was made at Westman Plastics earlier this year in which this government did show support for one venture within my own riding. I want to make sure that is acknowledged right off the bat so that people do know that I am aware that some progress has been made within the constituency of Dauphin in terms of Westman Plastics.

I think that was a very positive move on the part of this government; I think it does show some support for our area I am sure that I would join with many members of both the farm community and business community in Dauphin in congratulating the minister and his government for that move in Dauphin in terms of Westman Plastics. I do not want to seem like I am ungrateful or anything, but it did happen in the middle of a provincial election and I really do wonder what the motivation was behind the announcement.

Thank heavens that we do have elections every now and then in this province or maybe Dauphin would be totally left out in the cold by this government. That aside, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to make sure that we know that there are some pitfalls involved in Bill 21 that the minister has to be aware of and that we have to try to get around.

I am sure the minister is aware of the amount of control that is being shifted in Bill 21 away from a process and putting more power in the hands of the minister, enabling him to go a lot further in deciding where these projects will go and deciding what parts of the province will end up getting money from the taxpayers to support different ventures throughout the province.

4086 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 1995 There are certain buzzwords that come from this government that sound alarm bells within my brain. I get a little bit worried sometimes when I hear them. In the area of agriculture, whenever I hear this government talk about diversification, it means they are cutting in another area. Whenever this government talks about balance, when it talks about finance, you know that there are cuts coming and you know that there are going to be tax increases, but that they will be hidden somehow.

When this government talks about supporting patient care, you know they are going to be cutting hospital beds, and you know that they are going to be closing emergency rooms. In this legislation, the buzzw ord that set off the alarms for me was the word "streamline." Now, does that mean that everything is going to be streamlined now from the process that the minister says is there into his office so that everything comes out from the minister's office and the process is shunted to the side? That is something that I think this government has to worry about. It is not like I am just making up this kind of a worry.

I want everybody in this House to think back earlier today to a question posed by my colleague the MLA for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) having to do with some education grants that were handed out. Twenty-six grants handed out and 24 of them into Tory ridings. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Could I ask the honourable member to be relevant to the bill that is before us at this time, which is speaking about Rural Development bonds and not a general discussion on other grants. The honourable member, to continue. Mr. Struthers: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the grants that were announced this morning were supposed to have been subject to some type of process, and my point is that the process, I would hope, would be along the same lines as what is supposed to be there for Bill 22 and Rural Development Bonds. It is the process that I am keying in on. It is the process that this government has used in all sorts of different areas, the process which is over and over and over again being circumvented by this government in favour of a partisan political agenda.

The other point that I want to make is that I have not seen too many political ads playing on the television or in the news media talking about all these developments that the Grow Bonds have been responsible for, and I think that is simply because we are six months on the other side of an election now and not leading up to a provincial election. I find it disappointing, to use a weaker word, that the government would spend the amount of money that it has pushing Grow Bonds leading up to the provincial election, using them just to gamer support in an election in which they figured they were in trouble.

So these political ads having to do with Grow Bonds, I think the government has to question why they did them in the first place, and I think they have to look at doing a lot better job of getting the information out to rural Manitobans without taking this so clear of a political agenda. Mr. Deputy Speaker, my concern rests with the word "streamlined" and the circumvention of the process by which the Grow Bonds are issued. Just bef ore I conclude my remarks, I want to encourage the government to maintain their commitment to rural Manitoba through Grow Bonds.

I want them to build on the positive success that the Grow Bonds can actually accomplish for rural Manitobans, but I want them to keep in mind as well that it is too important an issue to be playing political partisan politics with, as I think they have done in the past. I hope that the minister would take into consideration the remarks that we have made from this side of the House, and I would encourage him to approach rural Manitoba as rural Manitoba and not be tempted into using the streamlined process, as he indicates in Bill 21, in any sort of political fashion. With that, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would conclude my remarks and thank you for the opportunity of speaking on this bill. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Grow Bonds, the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) should be aware I even have farmland in Inkster. So there you go. [interjection]

October 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4087 Well, I am not too sure of that, but I do acknowledge that the Grow Bond ideas and concept is an excellent one. Many rural communities have benefitted and benefitted tremendously from this particular program. We do want to see the program be very successful in the future.

It provides for many entrepreneurs and communities to be able to further diversify their communities through all sorts of different types of ventures and anything that can promote that sort of activity while at the same time be so economically feasible that we should be strongly encouraging and supportive of. I think that the government has received actually a fairly sound support from all sides on this particular project. There is one interesting aspect to the Bill 21, and that is that it is making by law that you have to appoint someone under the age of30.

I found that somewhat interesting in the sense that I would have expected-you know, we have many different committees, boards, throughout the province dealing with all sorts of different issues-that in fact government would acknowledge the importance of our young people and what our young people have to offer to the province of Manitoba. I believe Manitobans have. I can say with experience, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was 26 when I was elected. Under the age of 30. I think that it is widely known that young people do have a significant amount to be able to contribute to society.

I guess the minister is trying to say that through this particular piece oflegislation. But I am surprised in the sense that it would even require legislation. I do not know. Maybe he is fearful that another administration or another minister might not appoint young people. But I would have expected that government would acknowledge the importance of young people and would not necessarily see that it is necessary to bring in legislation to that effect. *

(1200) The minister explains it, so that if someone is 30 and they turn 31, that he is allowed to remain on the board. Well nothing would forbid him from not being on the board. In fact, if you had someone else retire you could always put in someone else. What this is saying is that if you have one member of the board who is 29 years old and the board is filled in terms of its appointments and that 29-year-old then turns 30-does it include the age of 30? Thirty-one, let us say that. Thirty.

If that individual, he or she is 30 years old and then when they turn 31, according to this legislation, that if there are no vacancies a vacancy then has to be created so that someone of 30 or under can in fact be appointed. Many would applaud the efforts or at least the sentiments that the minister is trying to get across.

But in terms of its being necessary for legislation I am not personally entirely convinced of it for the simple reason is I believe the Liberal Party, myself, believe very firmly that young people need to contribute to all sorts of our society, and we have a multitude of boards and different agencies that are scattered, as I say, throughout the province, and one would have expected that young people would be involved in all aspects of our decision-making process. With those few words, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I say, the concept is an excellent one, that being the Grow Bond Program.

We are always somewhat suspicious when government does some of its advertising, of course, in different areas. The Grow Bonds have been somewhat questionable in the past, but we anticipate that the next ad, if there is going to be anything coming from the government, maybe they will even include some token opposition members to give it some plugs. [interjection] The minister says that he is trying. I will extend services at least from our caucus to be able to contribute if he feels that it is necessary to have a politician actually doing some of the promotion in advertising direct in terms of faces on a screen.

I am sure that we could find some decent individuals or individuals on print. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We look forward to the bill going to committee.

4088 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 20, 19 95 Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading, Bill 21, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les obligations de developpement rural. Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Bi1128-The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1995 Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1995 (Loi de 19 95 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives en matiere de fiscalite), standing in the name of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): We are prepared to put this through to committee.

In fact, the member for Transcona specifically asked that I raise that on his behalf, No. 28. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Leave has been denied. Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 28, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1995 (Loi de 19 95 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives en matiere de fiscalite). Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. House Business Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): On a matter of House business, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, Bill 10 passed through second reading today, and it will be ref erred to Law Amendments committee for October 24, at 7 p.m., and Bill 21 passed also today through second reading and will be referred to the Committee on Municipal Affairs for October 25 at 7 p.m. I believe, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that it is the will of the House to call it 12: 30. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is it the will of the House to call it 12 :30? [agreed] The hour being 12 :30, this House now stands adjourned until l: 30 p.m. Monday.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, October 20, 1995 CONTENTS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Sustainable Development Presenting Petitions Innovations Fund Friesen; Cummings Emergency Health Care Services- Dwayne Archie Johnston Community Hospitals Robinson; Praznik Lamoureux 4063 Forest Fires Emergency Health Care Services- Jennissen; Driedger Seven Oaks Hospital Leaf Rapids, Manitoba Chomiak 4063 Jennissen; Pallister Reading and Receiving Petitions Museums McGifford; Gilleshammer Emergency Health Care Services- Community Hospitals Speaker's Ruling Lamoureux 4063 Dacquay Presenting Reports by Nonpolitical Statements Standing and Special Committees Aboriginal Youth Achievement Awards Public Utilities and Natural Resources Mitchelson 3rd Report Robinson Pitura 4063 Kowalski Oral Questions Canadian Highland Dance Interprovincial Championships Health Care System Barrett Doer; McCrae 4064 Emergency Services Committee Bill Amott Housing Complex Opening Doer; McCrae 4065 Kowalski Seven Oaks General Hospital ORDERS OF THE DAY Martindale; McCrae 4066 University of Manitoba Debate on Second Readings Reid; Mcintosh 4067 Ashton; Mcintosh 4070 Bill S, Off-Road Vehicles Amendment Act Emergency Services Committee Jennissen Lamoureux; McCrae 4068 Lamoureux Eye Examinations Bill 10 , Development Corporation Lamoureux; McCrae 4069 Amendment Act Environmental Education Sale Friesen; Mcintosh 4069 Lamoureux 4069 4069 4071 4072 4072 4073 4073 4074 4074 4074 4075 4076 4077 4078 4078

Bill 21, Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act Dewar C. Evans Struthers Lamoureux 4079 4080 4085 4086

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
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