Manitoba Hansard — 16 June 1995 (Sitting 19, 36th Legislature, 1st Session)

36-1-19

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty -Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker VoL XLV No.19 -10 a.m., Friday, June 16,1995

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon .. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROC AN. Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LE<aSLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-liixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Ross mere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River rmn N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

1807 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, June 16, 1995 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Riel (Mr. Newman), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the 1994 Annual Report for the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 23- The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 23, The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'assurance-maladie), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill19- The Intercountry Adoption (Hague Convention) and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), that leave be given to introduce Billl9, The Intercountry Adoption (Hague Convention) and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi concernant !'adoption intemationale (Convention de La Haye) et apportant des modifications correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion agreed to. Bill 20-The Child and Family Services Amendment Act Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), that leave be given to introduce Bill20 , The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les services a !'enfant et a Ia famille ), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. *

(1005) Bill22- The Municipal Amendment and Brandon Charter Amendment Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshammer), that leave be given to introduce Bill22 , The Municipal Amendment and Brandon Charter Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les municipalites et Ia Charte de Brandon), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to.

1808 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 Biii21-The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), that leave be given to introduce Bill 21, The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les obligations de developpement rural), and that the same be now received and read for a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I have a message from His Honour. Motion agreed to. Bill 24- The Tobacco Tax Amendment Act Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), that leave be given to introduce Bill 24, The Tobacco Tax Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi de Ia taxe sur le tabac ), and that the same be now received and read a first time.

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, may I seek leave of the House to revert back to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Rural Development have leave to revert back to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports? [agreed] Meeting the Challenges of Local Government Report Mr.

Derkach: Madam Speaker, I am pleased today to present the report entitled, Meeting the Challenges of Local Government. This report is a culmination of more than two years of hard work and diligence. I am pleased to be able to present this document today because of the hard work of scores of Manitobans who care deeply about local government. They took the time to review the initial discussion document, make presentations and, again, to review the draft report. In many ways, this document was written by them.

The final report is also possible because of the diligence of the five-member review panel that was appointed in the spring of 1993, who were charged with providing this government with valuable advice needed to overhaul The Municipal Act and other provincial statutes that affect local government. This review panel consisted of Mr. Henry Wiebe, who served as the chairman, Mrs. Margaret Hodgson, Mr. Jack Nicol, Ms. Susan Shineton and Mr. Gil Strachan, whom I am pleased to recognize today, Madam Speaker, as they join us in the Speaker's Gallery.

I would also like to thank everyone who contributed to this 164-page report, from the Manitobans who attended one of the numerous public meetings held throughout the province or those who took time to submit a written presentation. I would also like to extend my warm thanks to the panel members and the government staff who assisted them in this task. Meeting the Challenges of Local Government is a tribute to the consultation process used to develop this report. Panel members toured Manitoba twice to listen to the concerns and desires of Manitobans.

They also received hundreds of written presentations that they had to consider when they wrote this report. Without the participation of Manitobans, this report would not have been possible. This report will serve as an invaluable resource for this government as we update the legislative framework which governs the operations of municipalities. The importance of this report can

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1809 best be appreciated only if we understand the subject matter of its discourse. * (1 010) The Municipal Act regulates virtually all aspects of operations of local government in Manitoba. This report will also allow us to bring The Municipal Act up to date with modem realities and to address the issues and concerns facing Manitobans today. An updated Municipal Act will enable municipalities to govern themselves more efficiently and to specifically address the issues that affect those living within their jurisdictions and to be accountable to them.

Not only will new legislation be reflective of the times but it will also be adaptable to future needs of municipalities and Manitobans. Therefore, it has a profound effect on the lives of thousands of people in the province and this government is committed to helping them build a strong province while preparing for tomorrow. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. ClifEvans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, we, too, on this side of the House wish to offer our congratulations and good work in the diligence that the committee has put forward to put together the Meeting the Challenges of Local Government study.

We on this side of the House want to indicate that we do want to see a stronger rural Manitoba and, hopefully, with the hard work and diligence of the committee, the chair and the people of Manitoba, we can accomplish this. I would like to personally thank the chairman, Mr. Henry Wiebe, Mrs. Margaret Hodgson, Mr. Jack Nicol, Ms. Susan Shineton and Mr. Gil Strachan. Madam Speaker, we hope to be working with everybody on this-with the government, with the people of Manitoba, and, hopefully, rural Manitoba becomes strong here as it is in other parts of this country. Thank you very much.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have 45 adult students from Sir William Osler School under the direction of Irene Halgren, Sondra Hochman and Shema Posner. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe). We also have 20 adult students from Continuing Education for Adult Education under the direction of Ms. Frances Molaro. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this morning. * (1 015) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD VLT Revenues Inf ormation Release Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. Last December, when the NDP introduced the private member's Lotteries Accountability Act, the former Minister of Lotteries indicated that it was not necessary, that they would be giving us a community by-community breakdown of gambling soon.

I quote "soon." In March, the former minister said the same thing, and again in early April he said the same thing, that a community-by-community breakdown would be available to the public shortly. The Premier, in the election campaign, Madam Speaker, at a debate that we all attended, said that he hoped and wanted the material on a community-by community breakdown to be out before the election campaign. Madam Speaker, we have heard this story time and time again and yet communities are having public hearings on gambling and do not have the information from this government.

I would like the Premier to release the information immediately so the public of Manitoba can be fully

1810 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 involved in both the benefits of gambling and the consequences of gambling in their own communities. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I know this is an issue that is important to many. Certainly, the reason why the Desjardins commission was appointed was we felt that those who had concerns ought to have an opportunity to raise them at public hearings, and so the committee, under the chairmanship of a former minister in the New Democratic administration, Mr.

Desjardins, is going throughout the province, is listening to people, is accepting those , presentations. We will certainly await the outcome with great interest. The particular matter of the release of community by-community breakdown is a matter of being able to catalogue the information on a community-by community basis. As soon as we have that information, we will release it. I have said that before. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, this government can spend millions of dollars on image advertising at the Lotteries Corporation, yet it cannot provide community-by-community breakdown of information that is available, according to our sources, at the Lotteries commtsswn. This corporation is computerized. It has the data bank. The government does not have the political will to release that information to the communities because they are afraid of the consequences in terms of the debate.

Would the Premier stop the secrecy at the Lotteries Corporation and give Manitoba communities the community-by-community breakdown that surely they are entitled to as these community hearings take place? Mr. Filmon: I have said before there is no lack of will on our part as a government. As soon as the information is available, it will be able to be provided publicly. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, after the election debate where the Premier indicated that the material would be released-that is after his minister said the same thing for the last six months-the Ombudsman was informed by the Lotteries Corporation that the data is available at the Lotteries Corporation. We have also been told by employees of the Lotteries Corporation that all the material is available, machine by machine, hotel by hotel and community by community. We are not asking the government to reveal any confidential private information.

What we think is that the community should know and have the right to know about the information in their own communities. Would the Premier stop the secrecy at his government's level and demand that information, which is available, be released today so the people of Manitoba can be adequately informed to participate properly in their debate about their Lotteries Corporation, not the Filmon Lotteries Corporation? Madam Speaker: I would remind the honourable Leader of the official opposition that all members are referred to, ministers by their portfolio and other members by their constituencies. Mr.

Doer: The First Minister, the member for Tuxedo, would he please release that information? Madam Speaker: I appreciate that. I thank the honourable Leader of the official opposition. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, that is the same question as I just answered, and the answer is the same. Home Care Private Services Mr. Dave Cbomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, yesterday, in the committee on Estimates, the minister indicated the government is going to introduce private for-profit home care in three areas: I.V. services, hospital discharges and backup to the regular government-run home care.

Can the minister explain how the introduction of private for-profit home care into our home care system is going to improve the home care that is presently provided by a not-for-profit operation? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I would hope that the honourable member would keep his focus the same as other people in Manitoba, that being the patient, when it comes to health services.

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1811 I recall when a Seven Oaks project involving a profit making private company led to no additional costs for patients and much-improved services that his response, even though the patients were very, very comfortable with that and the patients gave a very, very positive evaluation of the service, was that it is no good if it is run by the private sector. There is room for various players in the health system, the nonprofit sector, the public sector and the private sector. *

(1020) Mr. Chomiak: Will the minister table his studies which show that profit-making companies are going to benefit our health care system when we have years of experience in Canada that say one of the benefits of our health care system is our not-for-profit centrally administrated system? Will he table the studies that show otherwise? Mr.

McCrae: There have been very many good features developed over the years by the public and nonprofit sectors and a number of features of our health care system that drastically or desperately need change because they have not met with the expectations of the generation in existence in Manitoba today. The honourable member has simply a philosophical problem. That is his problem. If he and his colleagues want to live 50 years ago and be hidebound for the next 50 years, that is going to be their problem. Mr.

Chomiak: Will he assure this House today-since he will not table any studies-that no patient in Manitoba will be charged additional fees as a result of these profit-run operations that are going to be introduced in three major areas of home care? Mr. McCrae: The honourable member was present the day we made the study of the Seven Oaks project. It was a very, very positive one, and even on that day the honourable member had a little bit of a problem being critical, although when he comes to the comfort of this Chamber, he is quite critical. Manitoba Housing Authority Amalgamation Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, poverty is a problem for thousands of Manitobans. A big part of that problem is safe, decent and affordable housing. Many people who live on low incomes pay as much as 50 percent of their income for housing.

Given that the purpose of the Manitoba Housing Authority is to manage some 20,000 properties of public housing in Manitoba and that the purpose of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation is to finance the development of affordable housing for Manitobans, I want to ask the minister if he can tell the House what plans there are to bring together these two agencies in Manitoba. Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, the

preamble was so long, I forgot which two departments she was talking about. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Radisson, to quickly repeat the question. Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, the question is if the minister can tell the House plans within his department to bring together the Manitoba Housing Authority and the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. Mr.

Reimer: Madam Speaker, with everything within the department, there is a consultation process being put in place regarding the approaches that are being handled with Manitoba Housing, the tenant relations and the attitude of their safety and their control in regard to what the member for Radisson is referring to, the pest control. These are all closely monitored in a sense of reactionary. If there is a problem, they are reacted to. The consultation between the two departments will continue, and the problems, as they are presented, are handled. Ms.

Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I do not think the minister answered the question. I will ask the question again.

1812 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 Are there plans in the department to amalgamate the Manitoba Housing Authority and the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation or to eliminate the function of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, which is to oversee the development of affordable housing for low-income Manitobans? Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, with anything regarding a departmental overview or a restructuring, there is always the possibility of looking at where directions are being placed, where the emphasis is.

The fact that we are dealing with a clientele and people who are requiring affordable housing is of the most primary function, and any type of direction that is taken is naturally done on a consultation basis as to which is the best vehicle to provide this type of direction. There is always an ongoing discussion and a dialogue between all departments within the government. *

(1025) Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, is this government going to abandon one of the biggest things it can do for low income Manitobans who live in poverty, which is to ensure they have decent, safe, affordable housing? Is this government going to eliminate that function from the provincial government in Manitoba? Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, the short answer is no. Public Housing Herbicide Spraying Notification Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): If I might have time to reply to a question that I took as notice from the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) last week. It was in regard to herbicide spraying.

If I recall, the question that was asked by the member for Radisson is what is the procedure regarding the spraying of herbicides in public housing. The practice is to give notice of 24 hours to each tenant when they . are spraying with herbicide. They are also asked to keep the children off the grass for one hour after, until it dries. [interjection] And pets, too, yes. Conservation Fund Grant-Member fo r Lakeside Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.

I would like to ask the minister whether he would investigate and release details of a $12,888 grant presented by the honourable member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos) in 1991 out of a fund that was designed to protect rare birds? I would like to know what that grant was used for. What happened to the money? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, let me, first of all, state that the program was established prior to my taking over the department.

The special conservation fund that is there has funded many, many very worthwhile projects, and the people who have participated in them over the years have done a tremendous job with that. I think that is a very good program that is out there. There is a process in place in terms of applications that come in and how they are being dealt with. I will investigate what the member is alluding to, but I want to also raise some sensitivity in terms of people that make accusations.

They better make sure they have their facts straight, because we cannot run around investigating all these kinds of accusations that possibly come forward through the media. I would have hoped somebody would have come forward and raised that issue with the department or with the government itself instead of going through the media on that issue. Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, clearly, we will not get any answers from this minister. My supplementary, Madam Speaker, is to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Community Places. Point of Order Hon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, the member for

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1813 Elmwood just indicated that they would receive no answers from this minister. He just gave an answer and has responded to every question that has been put. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I believe you will find that is not a point of order. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable Leader of the official opposition for his opinion and information. Now I will rule on the point of order. The honourable government House leader indeed did not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

Manitoba Community Places Grant-Member fo r Lakeside Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my supplementary then is to a different minister, the Minister for the Manitoba Community Places. Would the minister investigate and release publicly all details of a grant that took place January 9, 1992, a grant of $44,490 presented by the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), and I would like to know what it was used for? *

(1030) Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I can confirm that there was an application in the spring of 1991. It was approved later in 1991. The work was subsequently done. The project was inspected by the regional staff and the facility consultant on August 22, 1991. All costs were paid and supported by receipts and cancelled cheques. The Community Places Program grant was paid in one instalment on December 12, 1991. This is a facility that is used by many in that area for the local baseball league or as a recreation centre and the Interlake Metis Association.

Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the same minister is this: Could he investigate and release publicly what a 1990 grant presented by the same honourable member for Lakeside for property in St. Laurent was used for? Mr. Gilleshammer: The member asked about a Community Places grant. I have provided him with that information. If it is another Community Places grant that he is asking about, perhaps he could give me further information on that. Port of Churchill Grain Exports Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transportation.

Currently, there are 30 people working at the Port of Churchill preparing for the 1995 season and hoping that it will not be a repeat of last year. I would like to ask the minister what amount of grain, to his knowledge, has been committed this year, and when will grain begin to be shipped through the port? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I am sure the member is aware that the Port of Churchill is operated by Ports Canada, a federal undertaking, and that the shipment of grain through there will be done by the Canadian Wheat Board which at this point has not announced any volume of grain that is to go through the Port of Churchill. I will stand with him and say, we hope that the Canadian Wheat Board can move more volumes of grain through the port this year than they have in the past two years. Mr.

Robinson: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister, as well, whether he has consulted with CN to ensure that enough grain cars are available to ship grain through the port, unlike last year when two ships were forced away two weeks-each for grain to be shipped through the port. Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, certainly the relationship between CN and the Wheat Board for moving grain through there is a contractual obligation. I actually had discussions with a CN official last night, and my understanding is that the necessary

1814 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 arrangements when the Wheat Board has contracts will occur with CN. Again, we hope that the process of arrival is more timely with the ships this year than last year. Gateway North Project Status Report Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, my final question to the same minister is, how much has this province committed to the Gateway North project? What is the status of the Gateway North interim committee report? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, clearly, the Gateway North proposal that the member has seen that is a result of a task force involving Manitoba, Saskatchewan, the federal government, CN and a number of other interested groups, was a very good report in terms of identifying commercially how that port and the bay line can continue to operate viably for the good of Manitoba and anybody who moves product through that particular port. We have contributed through the process, particularly with staff.

The Gateway North committee has written a particular recommendation to the federal government. To my knowledge, they have not responded yet. But it is a very significant issue which we hope that the federal government will act on in very short term as the Gateway North committee continues to pursue aggressively, as we will through our department to be sure that the federal government recognize their obligation to keep that port viable and increase the economic opportunities through there in the years ahead. Garment Industry Employment Opportunities Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, there have been hundreds of jobs in the garment industry that have gone unfilled over the last seven years. Yesterday, when I asked the Premier the question, he responded by saying the fact of the matter is it is in the area in which traditionally we need to have open borders and opportunities to hire immigrants with skills. When I asked a similar question to the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey), his response was: Am I taking it that the member for Inkster is saying he wants to import people to take the jobs of people who are here, to take jobs away from them, is that what he is suggesting? Madam Speaker, my question to the Premier, because there is apparently some contradiction in possible government policy, is: Is this Premier prepared to take the action that is necessary and look in terms of what was done in the late '60s, early '70s in order to fill those hundreds of jobs in the garment industry, so that we will see something finally done to see those jobs being filled. Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, far be it for me to try and figure out the policy of what is left of the Liberal Party in this House, to determine what, in fact, they would do. First of all, we are extremely pleased that the economic climate in this province has generated the kinds of opportunities in the garment industry. That, I think we should all be happy for. In fact, that was one industry that was not to survive with the Free Trade Agreement. We were told that industry would in fact disappear. Well, very much the opposite has taken place.

Yes, we believe we have to make sure there are people available for the garment industry. We would hope, if there are people unemployed and capable in Manitoba, that they would be able to be trained to take on those opportunities. Secondly, if they are not, we should encourage immigration to this country to fulfill those jobs. That is what the Premier (Mr. Filmon) referred to yesterday. That is what built this country. So we are not at any odds. We believe strongly in satisfying the demand in the garment industry. It is how best we can accomplish that. If it is immigration, that is an opportunity.

If it is further training of people in Manitoba, that is an opportunity. The point is, there are jobs and we want people to fill them.

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1815 Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, can the Premier indicate to this House a commitment to adopting a policy that would be similar to the late '60s, early '70s that would see these jobs being filled? The Deputy Premier can say what he will, but the truth of the matter is, this government has failed in filling these jobs for the last seven years. Will this government take action today and ensure that the federal government is contacted so we can achieve an agreement that will fill these jobs? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as was indicated by the minister, first and foremost, there is a healthy economy in Manitoba which is in fact seeing expansion and greater opportunities for the garment industry. That is an important point to be repeated. The second point, of course, is that because there are jobs that go unfilled, we need to consider every avenue for filling those. Training of Manitobans who are looking for employment is one of those opportunities and that is being pursued.

The second, of course, is having more liberal-and I use that in a small "l" sense immigration policies, is absolutely key to the process. All the way back to the time of my father's generation when he came over to fill an opportunity and take a job in the garment industry back in the early '20s, this has been a source of opportunity for specific skills and expansion of our economy. That opportunity has been damaged by the policies of the federal Liberal government. I said that yesterday.

We are trying to achieve an agreement for a federal provincial immigration policy so we can have a greater role so that we can target people to the skill shortage needs in our society. That is not being done, thanks to the efforts of the federal Liberal government. I would say rather than get up and attempt to criticize this administration, he should pick up the phone and phone his federal Liberal counterparts and say, sign an agreement with Manitoba, get on with the job of opening up the borders to greater opportunities for immigrants. *

(1040) Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Finance indicate to this House how much loss of taxation revenue we have suffered because this government has been unable to fill not one but several thousand jobs, because this government has not been able to rise to the challenge of the economy in terms of providing a trained, skilled workforce? Hon.

Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, what the member should be most embarrassed about is the fact that his party has voted against each budget that this administration has brought down that has created the kind of climate that is creating jobs right here in Manitoba-1 4,000 more jobs today than a year ago. We are the only province in all of Canada today to have five consecutive months of job growth.

No other province in Canada can match that record, Madam Speaker, so he should be ashamed of his performance in terms of not supporting budgets that have created a whole series of advantages to locate and expand activities right here in Manitoba. I could give him a long list, and I will gladly share that with him at any point in time, but we have created the kind of climate here. Jobs are being created, opportunities are being created, and we have significant job growth in this province, Madam Speaker. Association of Community Living Salary Levels Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I believe it is well known that the Association for Community Living branches' employees are dedicated, hard-working people who serve the people they serve to the best of their ability. Regrettably, the per diems from the Department of Family Services works out to $5.01 an hour. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services how ACL branches and community option programs and shelter workshops will pay their employees once the minimum wage is increased.

1816 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question. It does give me the opportunity to talk about our commitment to Community Living and the resources that have been put in place, Madam Speaker. I think I indicated in Estimates yesterday that we are supportive in trying to find opportunity within our community for those who need our support and our assistance.

It is the one area within my department, Madam Speaker, that I have indicated if there are any additional resources whatsoever available, it is an area that I want to see given a very high priority. That is why, Madam Speaker, we, over the last two budgets in the Department of Family Services, have committed I think it was $4.5 million last year and another $2 million this year to provide additional support, so that we can keep people in the community and have them live productive lives.

So, Madam Speaker, it is an area of high priority, and as the resources become available in our department and there are additional resources, it is an area that I want to receive that additional support. Mr. Martindale: If it is true, as the minister said in Estimates, that there is more money for Community Living Programs, can the minister tell us why then, when ACL Beausejour requested more money to pay their staff decent wages, they were turned down? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Again, I thank my honourable friend for that question because it allows me the opportunity to inform all members of the Legislature that what we want to do is put the person who needs the service first, and if, in fact, there is an ability for us to serve more individuals with increased resources, that is where our priority will go, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Martindale: Can the Minister of Family Services tell us what she plans to do to stop the high turnover rate of employees in this occupation, who have no incentive to stay on when the wage right now is very low and the minister will not give the Association for Community Living branches more money to even meet the minimum wage? What is she doing to settle the strike in Beausejour? Will she offer them wages that are higher than social assistance? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, it is rather difficult for me to determine which of the six questions just posed I should answer, but, indeed, I will reiterate our position as a government. We are supportive of Community Living. What we want to do as a government is ensure the people that need our services get those services. It is difficult in these economic times to look at where the priorities should lie. We try to provide the resources to the best of our ability. We have increased resources in the area of Community Living, and as a result of that, more people are being able to be served.

We will continue to ensure that as more resources become available, the dollars will be there to serve the people in need. Northern Aff airs Communities Unconditional Grants Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. I would like to table a list of grants to Northern Affairs and First Nations communities from 1988 to 1994. As the minister is aware, the province is responsible to share a portion of personal and corporate income tax to First Nations and Northern Affairs communities. This is known as the unconditional grants.

I would like to ask the minister to explain why these amounts have declined from $1 ,792,574 to $906,125 since 1988, despite an increase in population and revenues from these communities. Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, without accepting any of the

preamble of the member, I will certainly look into that issue and get back to him. Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, I would like to also ask the minister whether or not he will consult with the Ministers of Rural Development and Northern Affairs, and table in this House within the next week a detailed explanation as to why these grants have decreased and whether or not the communities were consulted with regard to the decreases.

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1817 Mr. Stef anson: Madam Speaker, I have already indicated I will look into the matter, and I will pursue whatever avenues are required to do just that. Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, I would like, as my final question, to ask the minister also, in responding to my questions in the next few days, whether he will commit his government to ensuring that these communities I am talking about will get the exact amount of their share of these revenues. Mr.

Stef anson: Madam Speaker, as indicated, I will look into all aspects of the issue and respond to the member and to this House. Forest Fires Status Report Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. At the beginning of this month, the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) asked the minister a question regarding the forest fire situation in northern Manitoba. Since that time the situation has worsened with many more fires burning and many more out of control.

Hot, dry conditions continue to threaten communities such as Lynn Lake, Wabowden, Split Lake, Nelson House, Cranberry Portage and others. At the beginning of June, the minister assured the House that there were adequate resources to handle the forest fire situation. Could the minister, first of all, give us an update on how many fires are burning and how many of these are out of control? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, as of 12:30 yesterday, we had a total of 63 fires burning.

Forty-six were under control, 11 were out of control, no action on six of them, and approximately 17 new fires started the day before, and I do not have the final figures as to how many started yesterday. The situation is very volatile and critical. The temperature is rising up to 35. Tomorrow, it is predicted to be 36. The dry conditions and high-wind conditions could not bode well for the province in terms of the fire conditions. We are on the verge of the situation of '89 at the present time in terms of the seriousness of the conditions. Firetighting Resources Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I thank the minister for that report. Can the minister tell the House whether there are enough fire crews within Manitoba to handle the situation or whether help is being sought from outside of the province? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, we have well over a thousand trained people in the northern communities that have been trained for forest firefighting. We basically use the people that are available as required. When you have that many fires going, just human manpower is not enough. You have to have the equipment with that.

I have been extremely pleased and proud of the efforts made by our firefighting teams in terms of getting on these fires fast. The fact that most of the fires, you know, we catch them early on with the kind of equipment and identification system that we have in place. We can get most of the fires before they break out. Every once in a while, we lose one, and then, of course, the costs go up.

I have to say that a lot of money is being expended at the present time in firefighting, but compared to Saskatchewan and Alberta, we do a better job, I believe, with less funds because of the kind of people and equipment that we have in the field. * (1 050) Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain then, given the situation that we have with the forest fires in northern Manitoba, why communities such as Duck Bay and Camperville, who have trained and experienced firefighting crews, have, according to their town councils, not been contacted to provide assistance?

1818 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, I will not even start to second-guess how our firefighting operations go on, because I have had the opportunity to look at exactly how they do it, because very qualified people have been doing this for many, many years, senior people who know what is required in terms of movement of staff and equipment, and possibly, as pockets of fires start throughout the province, depending on the thunderstorms, men and equipment are moved there. I just have to indicate to the House that we have a travel ban on, what we call phase I.

There are three phases of bans. If we have to, under these conditions, we might be looking at moving to a phase 2, which would basically control virtually all movement in the forested areas of Manitoba. Winnipeg Arena Construction Conditions Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of Finance refused to make as a condition of the raising of the $111 million by the private sector, a condition for the construction of the new arena.

During the frantic fall blitz of 1994 to sell club and luxury boxes, MEC apparently raised only about $5 million in pledged sales and sold less than 50 percent of the club seats and about 80 percent of the luxury boxes. Yet they are counting on raising or having contributed $20 million before the end of July from this source. In the heat of the summer, they are not going to likely close this sale. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am sure the honourable member for Crescentwood has a question. Mr. Sale: Will the government require these funds, in fact, to be in place as a condition before beginning construction?

Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): Well, it is good to see, Madam Speaker, that the member for Crescentwood follows the consistent path of being negative continually in trying to find solutions to keep the Winnipeg Jets here in Manitoba. We know very well the position of the NDP. They want to see the Winnipeg Jets wearing uniforms down in the United States. In terms of the issue, it is the same question we had yesterday. The private sector, the Spirit of Manitoba, have three conditions to close this transaction by August 15.

One is to raise an additional $20 million which will take the contributions from Manitobans up to $80 million, that is from individuals and that is from an extensive grassroots campaign that had thousands and thousands of Manitobans contribute. Another source of it is going to be some of the advance payments towards club seats and so on. The Spirit of Manitoba will be starting that activity again very shortly, picking up on where they left off in terms of marketing season tickets, marketing club seats and so on. Winnipeg Jets/Arena Private-Sector Funding Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Is the minister then, Madam Speaker, confirming that the private-sector fundraising target has now shrunk to $80 million from $111 million? Is that what the new target is? Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): No, I am not confirming that at all, Madam Speaker. What the private sector will require as an original capital pool will be $111 million. That will come from individual contributions. It will also come initially from some contributions towards payments on club seats and so on.

There will be a continuing process of the private sector to continue to get more public contribution to this operation. I am sure, Madam Speaker, that if a successful solution is found here that will be an ongoing requirement for many years from the Spirit of Manitoba to continue to have the support of Manitobans, whether it is through purchasing season tickets or club seats or whether it is through making ongoing contributions to the Spirit of Manitoba here in our province. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, could the minister explain how the sale of season tickets, which are clearly operating revenues received in advance of an operation, can be considered as $10 million of capital in MEC's operating plan?

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1819 Mr. Stef anson: Well, again, I think unfortunately the member for Crescentwood is confusing capital and confusing cash. There are, Madam Speaker, cash requirements. There is the requirement to create a cash pool of $111 million to deal with the purchase of the hockey team, to deal with covering losses over the next two years while the team is in its existing facility and to create an endowment fund to sustain the team here for the next many years.

In the initial stages, some of that cash will come from the kinds of contributions towards club seats, contributions being made by Manitobans and so on. Over the next period of time, the private sector will continue to raise additional capital and continue to get contributions to the Spirit of Manitoba, to the endowment fund and so on. I wish for once the members of the NDP in the opposition would start to try to be constructive on this issue, Madam Speaker, and work with Manitobans who want to find a solution to keep the team here in Manitoba. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

There is time for one very short question. The honourable member for Crescentwood, with a new question. Winnipeg Jets/Arena Endowment Fund Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Can the Minister of Finance tell the House whether the endowment fund and the charitable donation request is still part of the deal or not? Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, in many respects, the member should be asking that of the private sector and of the Spirit of Manitoba. My understanding is there is still potentially a requirement for an endowment fund, as we have told the members on many occasions.

The issue of whether or not that qualifies as a deduction is an issue to be determined by Revenue Canada. The Spirit of Manitoba have indicated at their own news conference that they are dealing with Revenue Canada. They have indicated they have three conditions to close this transaction. One of them is a favourable ruling from Revenue Canada, Madam Speaker, and the Spirit of Manitoba will continue to deal with the federal government on that issue. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Harry Bergman Louis Riel Medallion Mr. Neil Gaudry (St.

Bonif ace): May I have leave for a nonpolitical statement, please? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Boniface have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Gaudry: Madame Ia presidente, j'ai l'honneur de m'adresser a cette Chambre aujourd'hui pour saluer l'initiative de M. Harry Bergman, un tier Manitobain et Canadien. M. Bergman a realise le dessin et Ia frappe d'une medaille qui honore Louis Riel, fondateur du Manitoba, et qui commemore aussi l'entree de notre province dans Ia Confederation. Cette oeuvre de M.

Bergman fait revivre de maniere toute speciale un moment important de l'histoire du Canada et du Manitoba [Translation] Madam Speaker, it is my privilege to address this Chamber today to acknowledge the initiative of Mr. Harry Bergman, a proud Manitoban and Canadian. Mr. Bergman executed the design and the striking of a medallion which honours Louis Riel, the founder of Manitoba, and which also commemorates the entry of our province into Confederation. Mr. Bergman's work is a very special reminder of an important moment in the history of Canada and Manitoba.

1820 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 [English] And I would say that Mr. Bergman is present in the gallery here this afternoon. I know that through the grace of God I am the founder of Manitoba. After more than a century those memorable words that Louis Riel spoke at his trial in Regina on July 31, 1885, are finally being recognized and appreciated for their true worth. Louis Riel was, indeed, the founder of Manitoba and it is with pride that Manitobans and Canadians acknowledge this fact in this year commemorating the 12 5th anniversary of the entry of our province in the Canadian Confederation.

C'est grace au leadership de Louis Riel qu'aujourd'hui nous avons une province bilingue. Ce jeune homme de vingt-cinq ans, ce visionnaire, caressait le desir de creer une vision d'une province qui serait Ia pierre angulaire d'un pays qui s'etendrait d'un ocean a l'autre. Certes, les 125 dernieres annees n'ont pas toujours ete faciles. Mais, malgre tous les obstacles, ce fier peuple a persevere et a obtenu Ia reconnaissance de ses droits. [Translation] It is thanks to Louis Riel's leadership that today we have a bilingual province.

This young, twenty-five year-old man, this visionary, held close to his heart the desire to create a vision of a province that would be the keystone of a country extending from ocean to ocean. Certainly, these past 125 years have not always been easy. Yet, despite all the obstacles, this proud people has persevered and gained recognition of its rights. * (1 100) [English] I am proud to acknowledge that my roots are deep in this soil of the Red River in this land that we now call Manitoba.

My ancestors were the proud Metis nation who fought to have their rights and those of all peoples recognized by the governments. Theirs was the brave fight, theirs was the right cause. If today we have democratic institutions, representative of the population and answerable to it, it is because of the leadership shown by the brave people of the Red River who 125 years ago stood up for their rights. Merci beaucoup, Madame Ia presidente. [Translation] Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I wonder if I may have leave to make a nonpolitical statement.

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Agriculture have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Enns: Well, Madam Speaker, I simply wish to rise and express similar sentiments that have just been so eloquently expressed by the honourable member for St. Boniface and certainly want to associate the government that I am proud to be part of with those comments. It is a source of great personal satisfaction to me that I have been in this Chamber at a time that recognition officially came to somebody who I have always believed to have been a founding father of this province.

I am pleased to see that recognition was extended in the federal Parliaments in the past few years. I am delighted, Madam Speaker, that we have at this particular time in our evolution of our province in the Lieutenant-Governor's house, a representative of the Metis people, that the honourable member for St. Boniface speaks so eloquently of, serving us as Lieutenant-Governor. Thank you very much. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, may I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Selkirk have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr.

Dewar: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the official opposition, I would like to begin by thanking the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) for his letter

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1821 today and his presentation to all members on this side of the House of the medallion designed by Mr. Bergman. I would like to pay tribute to Mr. Bergman today for the medallion. We, of course, on this side of the House have recognized the efforts of Mr. Riel, both in this Chamber and at his graveside in St. Boniface. It was a pleasure a number of years ago for us to rise here to take

part in the debate, the all-party resolution recognizing Mr. Riel as the founder of the province of Manitoba As a Metis person myself, it is with great pride that I stand up today to support and congratulate the individual who designed the medallion and, once again, it gives us the opportunity to recognize the significant role that the Metis people played in the history of our province, especially this being the 125th anniversary of our province, Madam Speaker. So with those few words, I thank you for the time. ORDERS OF THE DAY Bon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you please call Bill 13 for second reading. SECOND READINGS Bi1113- The Split Lake Cree Northern Flood Implementation Agreement, Water Power Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Northern Affair s): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr.

Gilleshammer), that Bill l3 , The Split Lake Cree Northern Flood Implementation Agreement, Water Power Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi concernant l'accord de reglement de Ia premiere nation erie de Split Lake relatif a I' application de Ia convention sur Ia submersion de terres du Nord manitobain, modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'energie hydraulique et apportant des modifications correlatives, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. * (110 0) Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I am going to speak very briefly on this matter. As members of the former Legislature may recall, this particular bill was introduced into the House in February, March of this year, and died, of course, with the prorogation of the last Legislature. I am reintroducing it today. It is the same piece of legislation. I am introducing it today for second reading.

It is the legislation which comes out from the settlement of the Split Lake Northern Flood claim which was signed in June of 1992 between the Split Lake Cree First Nation, Manitoba Hydro and the governments of Canada and Manitoba.

It, of course, meets the outstanding obligations to the Split Lake Cree First Nation under the Northern Flood and deals with the matters that arise out of that agreement that require leg islative approval of this Assembly, including the extinguishment of individual claims, et cetera, which was part of the comprehensive claims process that was agreed to some years ago that have led to the resolution of this particular matter. I know that some members opposite, particularly the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), the member for The Pas (Mr.

Lathlin), have expressed to me some issues or specific questions that they have. I look forward to having that discussion with them in committee when this matter does move to committee. I know there are some specific issues that they wish to address, and I would hope that this House would find it possible to move to that stage as quickly as possible. Thank you. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bon.

Darren Pramik (Deputy Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve itself

1822 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the departments of Family Services, and Culture, Heritage and Citizenship; the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Health. * (1 110) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 3.(e}(

l) on page 60 of the Estimates book and on page 67 of the yellow supplement book. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Chairperson, while we are on daycare, it reminds me of something that I have written to the minister about but I have not delivered the letter yet. It would be helpful if we could discuss it briefly, and that is the future of an institution that is in Burrows constituency, namely the North Y Community Centre. I am hoping that the minister will be sympathetic on this issue, because she was probably a user of the North Y in that community as well at one time. I asked a question of the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) in Question Period a couple of weeks ago about provincial government support for helping to keep the doors open, and I thought that the First Minister's answers were quite gracious and sympathetic. I have written to him and thanked him for that and sent copies to other ministers. There are three government departments that fund programs there, Justice, Family Services and Health. The reason is that Sunny Mountain Day Care Centre is located there. I understand that they have a reprieve from the YM YW of Winnipeg until October.

The rest of the building is closing June 30th unless a new partner can be found, but the daycare will be continuing at least until the end of October. I would like to ask the minister if she is sympathetic to continuing funding for the daycare at that location for a number of reasons. First of all, the facility really needs the rental income from Mental Health, Child Day Care office and Probation in order to keep the building viable. So if those three government departments continue to fund programs in that building it really does help to keep the doors open.

I know that a couple of years ago Sunny Mountain tried to find an alternative facility in the neighbourhood, and because of the current crisis they have been looking again for a facility. There really is not anything, particularly in the immediate neighbourhood. Many of the users there are on subsidy, and they are low-income people. They do not have cars and the location is ideal because it is at the junction of two bus routes, Mountain and McGregor. They are very reluctant to move out of the neighbourhood, particularly any great distance away.

So I am wondering if the minister can provide assurances that she will do her best to try to keep the funding going for the daycare at that site, which would be very helpful in keeping the doors open. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I appreciate the comments and the contribution that my honourable friend has made to this issue. In the interim I understand there is a community group that is trying to work very proactively to find a resolution to the situation that the north end Y faces at the present time.

I think we will be very interested in hearing what they have to say and working with them to see whether there is not a solution to the problem.

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1823 I can make a commitment to ensure that funding remains available. I cannot today make any further commitment than that, but I think we want to work very closely with the daycare centre and with the community to ensure that the needs of the parents and children are served to the best of our ability. So we will work and we will dialogue and we will be very interested in seeing what the community group that has pulled together has to present. Mr. Martindale: I would like to thank the minister for offering her support.

I am sure it is very much appreciated by Sunny Mountain Day Care and by the new group in the community, North Winnipeg CARE Inco rporated-C ARE being an acronym; I cannot tell you what it stands for offhand-because they are the only group that has come forward. No other existing organization has come forward and offered to be a partner with theY. But this new group has formed and would like to operate the facility and keep the current tenants, including Sunny Mountain Day Care.

Going back to questions on daycare policy, I would like to ask the minister if she plans any changes in the area of caps on subsidies, cases versus spaces and the parent charge of $2.40 a day. I know that the minister is familiar with all these issues, and I know that cases versus spaces has been a big problem for daycare centres because directors can no longer share spaces and that causes staffing problems and funding problems. Mrs.

Mitchelson: The issues surrounding daycare, I think the comments that I made during the election campaign at the child care forum would indicate that we are prepared to sit down with members of the child care community and parents and look at what the best solution is to try to change our system to the degree that we need to change it in order to provide affordable and flexible child care right throughout the province. I am prepared to look at all issues in daycare, not one in isolation of the other though.

I think they all fit together and we have to take a look at the whole package of daycare recognizing and realizing, as I have said in the past and I will reiterate again today, there is no more money. So within the parameters of the funding that is available, how do we find better ways of delivering the service so in fact we can address some of the issues that are outstanding in child care right throughout the province?

I am open to dialogue and discussion and working with the child care community and parents to see how we can best accommodate the needs of children and families in our Manitoba community within the resources that presently exist. Mr. Martindale: The minister will be aware, and I think I am right on this, that there is no capital funding available for daycare centres for renovations or improvements.

In spite of the fact that many day cares have financial problems now exacerbated by low enrollments, occasionally centres do have small surpluses, which they find very helpful, because they need money to match for grants such as Community Places. If they do not have those small surpluses then they have no money to make improvements to equipment or build ings. I am wondering if the minister has any suggestions or any plans to work with the child care community to find solutions to these very real problems. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I think in my last answer I indicated that I am prepared to take a look at the whole issue of daycare in the context of how we best address the needs of children of working parents and families. I believe there needs to be dialogue and discussion, and everything that we do presently needs to be looked at with those that are providing the service and with those that are needing the service to ensure that we have a system that will meet the needs of the future of Manitoba's working families.

I am not opposed to looking at all issues in the overall context of service delivery for families and children in need. Mr. Martindale: This minister is fond of talking about self-reliance. Interestingly, that word is used in the Dr. Brian Postl report on the health of Manitoba's

1824 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 children. He specifically mentions poverty and child care. He says, and I would like to quote: Although increased access to quality daycare for those individuals will not solve the issue of poverty it may be viewed as a vital component of a broad-based effort to support the achievement of self-reliance and to break the cycle of poverty. He recommends that the allocation of subsidized daycare spaces be reviewed to ensure access for children of the poor to support parental efforts towards self-reliance.

I am wondering if the minister can tell us how she plans to promote self-reliance through making child care more accessible to children of low-income families. *

(1120) Mrs. Mitchelson: I think this all fits into the whole bigger picture of co-ordination of early intervention of working with families to ensure that parents have the skills to parent, to budget, to ensure that children's basic needs are being addressed and that our children get off to a healthy start to life.

I have challenged the child care community to help look at the total picture of what the needs of families are and focus some of their energies and efforts on looking at how they can fit into solving some of the problems that do exist and some of the recommendations that have been made in the Postl report and some of the research that shows us that we need early intervention.

We need early child development; we need to work with pregnant women during their pregnancy to ensure that they have proper nutrition and refrain from using alcohol or other substances that might create issues like fetal alcohol syndrome and other problems that do exist as a result of women not looking after themselves and understanding what the consequences are of not doing that. I think it is part of the bigger picture.

I would like the child-care community to be involved in a major way in the process of sort of broadening their minds and looking at how they can help with some of the expertise and the training, that they have to work with us on the Health side, on the Education side and on the Family Services side.

That challenge has gone out, and I would anticipate that they are-1 know quite frankly from talking to many early childhood educators, on an individual basis, that there is a willingness for them to want to participate in the bigger-picture process in looking at how we deal with the issues of children at an early age and early child development and some of the other problems that we are facing today. Mr. Martindale: Is the minister going to review the recommendations of the working group with the representative groups to create a plan for child care in the future? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, the working group was-that report I guess was presented to us back in 1991, I believe, 1991-92, and given the changing dynamics and given the research and the information and the major amount of work that has been done by Dr. Postl and his group, I think we need to be looking at what research and what recommendations have come forward, and put all of our future efforts and energies into trying to address the issues and the recommendations that come out of that report in a co ordinated fashion.

If there are those recommendations from the working group that would fit in with some of the recommendations that were made in the Postl report, I think we have to look at addressing them in that context. Mr. Martindale: I understand that the minister has been involved with discussions, or her staff have been involved with discussions with MCCA and the Crocus Fund, and that the wroker project-! am not sure I am pronouncing that right; it is spelled w-r-o-k-e-r co-op project-has been improved in principle. Could the minister tell us when the project will be able to begin, or is it worker co-op project?

Worker co op project. Okay. Mrs . Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is worker co-op project. The idea is a very interesting idea, and we are

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1825 still trying to work out some of the details around that so we are not at a fmal stage of approval. Mr. Martindale: During the election campaign, of course, I read the Conservative Party's policy on child care and the only thing I could see that was any different was the use of the word flexible. I wonder if the minister could tell us what she means by providing more flexible daycare. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think the issue has been raised on many, many occasions with our government and probably-we ll, maybe it is seven or eight years ago.

It was not an issue that was as critical as it is today, but when we talk about flexibility, it is flexibility for those workers who are working shift work and weekends. We know that many of the areas of job opportunity today do require people to work weekends and work shift work, and the present child care system I do not think addresses the needs of those working parents. So when we talk about flexibility, I think we have to look at creative ways of trying to meet the needs of the families and children that need support and care other than the nine-to-five, Monday-to-Friday workers.

So when we talk flexibility, we need to look at how we address the needs of those children and families. Mr. Martindale: I wonder if the minister could tell the committee briefly what she thinks happened to the federal Liberal government's promise of 150,000 new child care spaces. Is the funding still available for that or has it disappeared? * (1 130) Mrs . Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think I indicated yesterday in some of my comments that there is no new money.

Any money for child care that was available or the CAP money for child care is rolled into a new pot now that has been reduced, so there is not more money in that pot for child care. I suppose it is speculation on my part, but I think that the whole national child care strategy has fallen by the wayside. We know that within the Human Resources Investment Fund there is supposed to be money for child care.

I did indicate I think to my honourable friend yesterday, and I will repeat it again today, that all indications are, at the bureaucratic level federally anyway, that any new money for daycare will have to compete with requests for support for Vocational Rehab and Community Living and all the training programs that presently exist at the federal level. That pot is a pot that is shrinking on a yearly basis. I would venture to guess that the federal government has abandoned its red book commitment. Mr.

Martindale: I would like to briefly ask a couple of questions on behalf of an individual child care centre that has written to the minister and sent a copy to our Leader. This is from Le P'tit Bonheur Inc. child care centre in St Boniface. They point out that they are the only Francophone daycare. They are located close to College universitaire de Saint-Boniface and they serve students who attend the college. They have a shortage of spaces and they have to turn down requests, which in turn means that parents carmot attend the college. They are requesting six additional subsidized spaces.

I am wondering if the minister has considered this request-the letter that I have is dated June 2, 1995-and if so, if Le P'tit Bonheur has received a favourable response. Mrs . Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we did receive the letter and are still looking at the issue. I know the request has come forward. Not unlike the other requests and the other sort of evaluation of child care centres across the province, when we looked at specific requests for increased subsidized spaces we made the decision to give several different centres more subsidized cases.

We will look at this request in the same light and same context as other requests that have come forward. Mr. Martindale: Before we pass this appropriation I would like to table a letter which really has to do with income security. It is a letter to the Honourable Ron Irwin, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Develo pment, Canada. It is from Chief Louis Stevenson. It has to do with responsibility for social assistance. I would just like to table it so that it is part of the record. As the minister knows, we have raised the issue and the concern of treaty people living off

1826 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 reserve in Manitoba many times in Question Period and in Estimates, and we would just like to table this letter so that it is part of the record. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you. I will read it. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 3. Rehabilitation, Community Living and Day Care (

e) Child Day Care

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,065,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $519 ,200. Mr. Martindale: Could you just bring me up to date on what page we are on again? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Page 60 of the blue Estimates book. An Honourable Member: supplementary. Mr. Martindale: Page 67, okay. Page 67 in the Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 3.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures $519 ,200-pass;

(3) Financial Assistance and Grants $44,679,200-pass. Resolution 9.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $141,340,100 for Family Services, Rehabilitation, Community Living and Day Care, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1996. Item 4. Child and Family Services (

a) Administration

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $406,700. Mr. Martindale: I would like to just spend a couple of minutes on the list of external agencies, funding to external agencies. Could the minister tell us if there are any significant changes this year over last year? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there are no significant changes. My understanding is, there may have been a slight increase in some of the grants to some of the organizations. Independent Living Resource Centre for one has received an increase.

If I could just add too, all the shelters received their rent increase and $140,000 also for second stage housing. Mr. Martindale: Could I ask the minister what kind of shelters she is referring to? Mrs . Mcintosh: Women's shelters. Mr. Martindale: Thank you. I guess I will start Child and Family Services now. I apologize to the minister if it seems like I am jumping around a lot, the reason being that I will be. One concern that I have is the youth hostel that is operated by Macdonald Youth Services. I was there to visit it recently with the member for Osborne (Ms.

McGi:fford), and we had a meeting with the staff. The staff are quite optimistic that they can keep the facility open, but I think it requires some commitments of ongoing funding. I wonder if the minister could bring us up to date on the status and the future of the youth hostel operated by Macdonald Youth Services. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairperson, I was out to visit the youth hostel and meet with the staff from Macdonald Youth Services a week or two weeks ago and am certainly aware of the issues surrounding the hostel.

Our staff are working with Macdonald Youth Services right now to see if there is anything that can be done and, if so, what. We are aware of the situation and we are working with them. Mr. Martindale: Is there currently Family Services money going into the youth shelter? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, nothing directly from the department, but Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency does fund them for certain things, activities that are ongoing. Mr.

Martindale: Is it possible for the minister to either directly fund the shelter or to provide more money to Macdonald Youth Services or more money to Child and Family Services to keep the youth shelter open?

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1827 Mrs. Mitchelson: As I indicated, we have met with them. We are aware of the concerns and we are . meeting with them to see if there is a resolution that can be found. I could not commit today to any one solution to the situation, but we are working with them and we will see if anything can be done. Mr. Martindale: On a different topic, the minister and I both are lobbied by a group called Links or post adoption Links.

They have done a lot of research in terms of legislation in other provinces and other countries around the world which they have shared with me and I am sure they have shared with the minister. I would like to ask if the minister has reviewed legislation in other provinces and if she plans to make any changes in Manitoba. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, there are all kinds of issues around post-adoption services that need to be looked at. I know there are many different points of view out there in the community.

That will be one of the areas that will receive full consideration as we enter into the review of the legislation . There are many areas within the act that will be subject to that process, and post-adoption services will be an area that will receive a major focus. Mr. Martindale: Does that mean that the minister is contemplating changes in legislation for adoption? Mrs. Mitchelson: There is a high likelihood that there will be changes and amendments to the legislation on the adoption side. Mr.

Martindale: It seems to me that both adoption and Child and Family Services lend themselves to public consultation before a change in legislation, because these are very important areas and they touch a lot of lives. Would the minister contemplate any kind of public hearings on changes to adoption legislation? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think I indicated yesterday that there will be full public consultation before any major amendments are made to the act. Mr. Martindale: Just to clarify, does the minister mean public consultation before legislation is drafted or at the committee stage of a bill? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Before legislation is drafted. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us about the Family Support Innovations Fund and how the monies have been allocated and to what organizati ons? If there is a list of organizations, if the minister could table the list, that would be appreciated. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I could read into the record all of those grants that have been given or I could get a clean list and provide that. Mr. Martindale: Would it be possible to get the list before twelve o'clock? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Mr.

Martindale: As the minister knows, when children are apprehended, and I am speaking of Winnipeg, frequently there is a shortage of even temporary placements in homes and so children are put up in hotels and motels. Of course, this is at great expense, as the minister knows. Of course, we do not talk publicly about the names or locations of those facilities, but the first large hotel that was used-we will call hotel A-c ould the minister tell us how many children, on average, are there on a daily basis in these hotel suites? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I am trying to get that inf ormation but, in the meantime, I will pass over the list of the Family Support Innovations Fund grants. I am inf ormed that it varies from time to time based on individual circumstances and children's needs and that from time to time it might be a large family, where it is difficult finding a placement, but I understand where my honourable friend is coming from.

I have the same concerns over the issues around putting children in hotels and what kind of treatment and what kind of care they get, an issue that I do not have an easy answer to, but I think it is an issue that we are going to have to look at trying to address sometime in the near future. I do not think it is the best solution and maybe there are ways to explore, along with the agency, other options and other opportunities. Maybe it is reaching

18 28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 19 95 out to the community to see whether there is not an ability to attract more foster parents to provide the service, but that is an issue I have some major concern about. We will be working to try to find a more positive resolution. * (1 14 0) Mr. Martindale: I understand that there are so many children in need of protection and there is such a lack of spaces that a second hotel is being used. We will call it hotel B. Can the minister confirm that? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, it is my understanding that from time to time there is more than one hotel that might be used depending on the circumstances or the situation or what the agency feels is most appropriate. Mr. Martindale: I am also concerned about people in rural Manitoba. I had one call from The Pas, where someone said that there was a waiting time of six to nine months for a trial and because of a lack of placements, a child was sent to Winnipeg, which meant that the parent was not able to visit. I am wondering if the minister can confirm that this happens and how frequently. Mrs.

Mitchelson: If my honourable friend would like to share the detail of the specific incident with me, I would look into that and see. I guess the consideration is always given to what is in the best interests of the child at the time. There might be circumstances, unusual circumstances, that would require that kind of thing to happen, but if I could have some detail, I would certainly look into the specific incident and try to get more information. Mr. Martindale: I will try to get that information. On several occasions, I have said that Manitoba has the highest number of children in care per capita in Canada.

I would like to ask the minister if that is true. Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, it is. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell us why? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, that is a question I have asked, and I am not sure of what the answers are.

I think one of the issues and one of the things we been trying to do with the Winnipeg agencies specifically, and other agencies, is the new focus and the new direction around family support, family preservation and family responsibility, where the Family Support Innovations Fund and the projects that I have just shared with my honourable friend that have been approved are supposed to be testing new ways of delivering service, so that children do not have to be taken into care, but they can be provided with supports in their families to see whether we cannot decrease the number of children that are coming into care.

So that was really the whole focus of the Family Support Innovations Fund. We are hopeful that as these projects get up and running, we will see a significant change in the numbers of children who have to come into care. It is a matter of new ways of delivering service and trying to keep families together, reunite families more quickly if it is at all possible, as long as it is in the children's best interests. Mr.

Martindale: Has the Family Support Innovations Fund been running long enough that Child and Family Services would have statistics that might show that there is a decrease in the number of children coming into care? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, no, the projects have not been running. Many of them are just getting up and running right now. Some of the approvals were made about six months ago, so it does take some time to get the program up and running and to evaluate the success.

The funding is for 18 months, and we are hopeful that by the end of that 18 -month period, we will see a significant change, and that will be able to be documented. * (115 0) Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I understand that sometime ago, a promise was made to have a youth

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 29 care worker training program at Red River Community College, perhaps as long as two years ago. My understanding is that this program is not up and running yet. Could the minister confirm that? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, all four departments, Justice, Health, Education and Family Services, are supportive, have identified resources, and we are working very proacti vely to try to get that up and running as soon as possible. It may be as early as this fall. Mr. Martindale: Well, the minister says possibly. Are you aiming for September or not? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we are hopeful it will be this fall, but it does depend, to some degree, on the community college. Mr. Martindale: Will some of the funding come from this minister's department? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, a significant amount will come from our department. Mr. Martindale: I have in front of me some statistics from one of the areas of Winnipeg Child and Family Services for the calendar year 1994, and it has to do with family preserva tion.

I presume that means keeping children in families rather than having them apprehended, so, obviously, Child and Family Services is keeping track statistically of what is happening, with the goal, I guess, of fe wer apprehensions and more children staying intact with their families. Could the minister, first of all, confirm this, that statistics are kept with a goal of family preservation? Mrs. Mitchelson: My understanding is that they are. Yes, I understand they are kept. Mr. Martindale: How long have those statistics been kept? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I guess we have always tracked how many children are being served in families and how many children are being apprehended and served in care. Mr. Martindale: Are any of those statistics available to me? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, ifl could refer my honourable friend to the annual report on pages 86-87 and around there, there are lots of statisti cs. It does indicate the number of children in care and the number of families receiving services and probably that information would come to light through looking at the charts in the annual report. Mr.

Martindale: I would like to ask the minister a question about I believe it is the Winnipeg Development Agree ment which according to-1 am not sure whether this is a final copy or an earlier draft-but Program 8, Innovative and Preventive Child and Family Services, there was $4.5 million allocated. I would like to ask the minister if this is new money and if it is something diff erent than what her department is already doing. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, that is new money.

It is part of the Winnipeg Deve lopment Agreement which is managed by the Department of Urban Affairs, but it was a request that I had made indica ting that I fe lt it was a high priority that the Winnipeg Development Agreement have a component such as this. We will be developing criteria and guidelines around receipt of proposals to look at pilots that will be innovative new ways of working with families and children in Winnipeg to see whether we cannot achieve some positive results. Mr.

Martindale: Could the minister tell us about the curr ent status of the Child Abuse Registry and whether there is a backlog there and, if so, how many cases ar e waiting to be heard by the panel? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there are 31 cases to be heard as of March 31, 1995. Mr. Martindale: How does this compare with, say, a long-term averag e? Is it higher or lower?

18 30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is lower than it was at the same time last year. Mr. Martindale: This is changing topics again. Could the minister tell us how many women from Flin Flon have gone to The Pas to seek shelter since the Flin Flon Crisis Centre was closed? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, in the 1994-95 fiscal year, a total of five women and eight child ren from Flin Flon accessed servi ces at The Pas. Mr.

Martindale: How would that compare with the number of women who made use of the shelter service in Flin Flon when the Flin Flon Crisis Cen tre was still open? How many cli ents did they have in one year? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, as we know, the shelter in Flin Flon did accommodate many women from Saskatchewan pre viously. We do not have the kinds of statistics that would tell us how many were Manitoba women and how many were Saskatchewan women, because there was a good percentage of service provided in Flin Flon for Saskatchewan residents.

We do know that they are now receiving services in Regina and Prince Albert. Mr. Martindale: Would not your department have billed the Province of Saskatchewan for residents of Saskatchewan using the shelter in Flin Flon? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, the arr angement with Flin Flon was that the Flin Flon child care billed directly the Saskatchewan government. Mr. Martindale: So could you not have subtracted the number of Saskatchewan cli ents from the total to come up with the number of Manitoba clients? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we will go back and get that information and pro vide it. Mr.

Martindale: We have heard from employees or staff of women's shelters that gambling intensifies abuse, and that would certainly seem to be logical. I am wondering if the minister can tell us if women's shelters across Manitoba are keeping track during their admissions procedure of women who are seeking shelter either partly or wholly because of abuse which they believe is partly or wholly because of gambling addiction by a spouse. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is my under standing that not all shelters are gathering that kind of informati on.

I guess what happens very often with addictive beha viours, there are many cross-addictions , so gambling might be one addiction that is also related to alcohol addiction and possibly drug addiction or other things, so very often there just is not one cause. There are often circumstances that do pr ecipi tate abuse and it is often not just one reason.

I do want to indicate that we have been worki ng-the Association of Women's Shelters and the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba have been working together on a cross-training process so there is an understa nding of those that are working in women's shelters of what the issues around gambling addiction and other addictive behaviour pose to treatment and support for women. So we are proactively working with women's shelters and with the Addictions Foundation to ensure that there is the training available to attempt to meet the needs of the women that do need protection and shelter. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: The honourable minister. Mr. Martindale: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, I would love to be the minister. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: My apology. Mr. Martindale: Well, I am also a minister. I did not ask any questions about Vital Statistics. I was going to say that I gave up my licence to officiate marr iages and I have regretted it, but someday I will get my licence again and go back to perf orming weddings once again, because politics is not forever; there is lif e after politics. An Honourable Member: Oh, oh, swan song. An Honourable Member: Yes, it is a retirement speech.

June 16 , 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 31 Mr. Martindale: Well, I was thinking, you know, in the long term, 10, 15 , 20 years. I received a complaint from an individual who stayed at a women's shelter. I am not going to name the shelter because it was only one complaint, I know the shelter and I am sure they are trying to do a good job. But the complaint was that this individual, while she was there, received no counselling, that she was not allowed to make phone calls and that she could not leave . If that is true, it is quite distressing.

I guess the reason I am not naming the shelter is that I fmd it really hard to believe that could be true. I would like to ask the minister, do all shelters provide counselling, allow clie nts to make phone calls and leave the shelter during the day? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we do have standards in place and we do have service and funding agreements with all shelters and those certainly are not actions that would be consistent with what we have in place.

As my honourable friend indicated, it was an isolated issue and if there is something on a broad basis that is going on, we certainly would be interested in wanting to try to resolve the issue or the prob lem. * (1 200) Mr. Marti ndale: I will follow up. I will phone the staffperson who is in charge of shelters in your department. Back to Winnipeg Child and Family Services, I understand that a number of years ago a child ren's foundation was estab lished, and I am wondering if the minister could tell us if that children's foundation still exists and, if so, how much money is in the foundation? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, the foundation does still exist but we are not sure what is in it. We would have to ask the agency and get back to the member. Mr. Martindale: When the previous minister centralized the Winnipeg Child and Family Services age ncies, I believe part of the rati onale was to save money, particularly on administra tion. Now that there has been one Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency for a number of years, could the minister tell us if in fact there have been cost savings? Mrs . Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, they are working towards efficiencies as a result and I think there has been some central amalgamation of finances that has just recently occurred, so they are still working on it. Mr. Martindale: So the minister does not know if they have saved any money or not. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we are spending more on Child and Family Services today and every year, more than we spent in the past, but the money that is being provided is going to children that have needs and need support and care .

On the administrative side, I think, with the amalgamation that has just recently taken place, we should see some efficiencies. Mr. Martindale: Well, I know that the budget is going up, but that is probably related to the number of people being served, but the question of saving money and amalgamation really has to do with the administrative costs. Surely the minister can track the administrative budgets and tell the committee whether or not there have been savings in adminis tration because of the centraliza tion. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, there have been some savings on the admini strative side, maybe not as much as we would have liked to have seen by this point in time, but we are continuing to work with the agency to ensure that direction continues. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister provide comparative figures to me on the admini strative costs of the old sep arate independent agencies and the new centralized Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency so that I can see whether in fact the original rati onale has proved true or not? Mrs . Mitchelson: We can certainly attempt to get that for my honourable friend. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Item 4. Child and Family Services (

a) Adminis tration

(1) Salaries and Employee

18 32 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 Benefits $406, 700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $6 1,1 00-pass. 4.(

b) Child and Family Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,232 ,400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $2,26 1, 500-pass;

(3) Maintenance of Children and External Agencies $97,974,600-pass;

(4) The Family Support Innovations Fund $2,500,000-pass. 4.(

c) Seven Oaks Centre ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,819 ,1 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $271 ,000-pass. 4.(

d) Family Conciliation

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $724,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $165, 1 00-pass. 4.(

e) Family Dispute Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $298, 700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $89, 800-pass;

(3) External Agencies $5,2 16,900-pass. Resolution 9.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $1 14 ,021 ,500 for Family Services, Child and Family Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 1996-pass. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Family Services is Item I. (

a) Minister's Salary $22,800. Mrs . Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, could I just ask a point of clarification. I do not know where in the Estimates book the Child and Youth Secretariat falls. Is that a separate appropriation? I am just wondering what the will of the committee is. Will that be passed before my salary, if that was to be passed under-[interjection] Mr.

Martindale: I had a chance to talk to the director of the Youth Secretariat, and he tells me that they spent seven hours on it in Health Estimates, so I do not think we need to ask any questions here, and if it is in the appropriation, then we have already passed it if the Minister's Salary is the only thing that is left. Mrs. Mitchelson: I know it is not in my appropriation. It is a separate appropriation unto itself. It does not belong to any department. Do we want to just leave it and-[interjection] Okay. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: At this point, we request the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item. Item 1. Administration and Finance (

a) Minister's Salary $22,800. Mr. Martindale: Before I excuse myself, as I have to go to an event in the north end, I would just like to thank the minister for being so co-operative. We do not agree on a lot of issues, but certainly the minister's co-operative style has been the reason that we only took seven hours this year, and I just want to go on record as saying that I appreciate her co operativeness. She has also, in the spirit of co operation, offered to provide a lot of information to me after Estimates are over, and I look forward to receiving it. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I do want to thank my honourable friend the critic for the New Democratic Party too for his speedy passage, I think probably a record that cannot be matched for the number of hours that have been spent in Family Services Estimates. I think we all would agree that we have, setting of philosophies aside and maybe different approaches, we all have a genuine interest in the health and well-being of some of the most needy citizens .in our Manitoba community .! thank him also for the co-operation and the ability to move through the Estimates in the fashion we have today. Mr.

Martindale: I will try to make this a final comment. I am not sure I want to be on record as having the shortest Estimates time for such a large and important department. There is a reason for it, and that is that we have new members in our caucus, such as the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), and we had to divide up the Estimates time and give our new critics more time, and that meant that some departments that have got many, many hours in the past, including this department that has had up to 30 hours, were allocated

June 16 , 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 33 less time within our caucus, and so out of courtesy to my colleagues I requested fewer hours this year. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I just have a couple of questions of the minister, and you will have to excuse me for not necessarily being able to proba bly pose them in the best opportunity in terms of when the staff would have been here. If in fact the minister does not necessarily have the information that she feels would be beneficial for me to have, I would appreciate if she could get back with me with some better or more clarifica tion and so forth.

The questions that I had actually come out at least in part from discussions that I have had with some people from the north end and some of the discussions I had with the Minister of Health. It is with respect to residential care homes and board and room homes, if you will.

One of the things that we had talked fairly extensively about in health care Estimates is that one of the things that we need to start to doing is the whole concept of change and that deinstitutionalization and providing more services, for seniors in particular, in homes, and one of the things that I entered into a bit of a dialogue with the Minister of Health on was the idea of the board and room homes and residential care homes.

I am interested in knowing and, again, excuse me if the questions have already been asked, does the Minister responsible for Family Services, where we provide monies to clients, in particular residential care homes and board and room, see, or what sort of plans does she have for these two areas? * (1210 ) Mrs. Mitchelson: The Department of Family Services' responsibility in the whole licensing of residential treatment is in fact just a licensing activity. There is no funding provided from the Department of Family Services for support.

We license a residence and then the funding comes from Health or from other community organiza tions, whatever might be. I think I am accurate in saying that. I do not have my staff here at the table, but our role would only be licensing of residential facilit ies. We do not necessarily provide the funding to support activities that are ongoing in those facilities. Mr. Lamoureux: Would the minister have a committee that would be reviewing licensing requirements and looking possibly at the whole idea of board and room?

As I have indicated, in this particular area, I have had a couple individuals that have raised the spectre of not necessarily providing care in terms of prescript ions, but believe that they too have a future role in some form of licensing through the Department of Family Services. Does the minister actually have a review body that looks at this whole area? Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess I might seek a little clarification, because I am wondering what types of individuals my honourable friend is wanting to discuss. Are they individuals that would be supported or funded through the Department of Family Services?

Are we talking children- Mr. Lamoureux: Some would be on social assistance -adults, seniors. Mrs. Mitchelson: -adult seniors. They may be on social allowances, if I am understanding correctly. You know, maybe I could make a suggestion or recomme ndation that we have the opportunity to sit down and discuss this and have some of my staff avai lable at another time so we could talk about specific instances, so I could get some understanding of where my honoura ble friend is coming from. Maybe we could, I could provide the answers at that time. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, I appreciate the gesture.

What I will do is maybe sometime over this summer get in touch with the minister's office and try to arrange a meeting with some of the people that have met with me to talk about what their requirem ents are, what the areas are which they would like to move in to. I do understand that the Departm ent of Family Services plays a vital role in it. So I will take her up on that offer and prepare to pass the Minister's Salary. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item l. (

a) Minister's Salary $22,800-pass.

18 34 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 Resolution 9. 1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,5 74,000 for Family Services, Adminis trati on and Finance for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1996. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of Committee of Supply are the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commence ment of the next set of Estimates? CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Does the honoura ble Minister of Culture have an opening statement? Bon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I do, Mr. Chairm an. Thank you very much, and I do have an opening statement. I would like to proceed with that at this time.

With the introduction ofthe 1995- 1996 Estimates for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, I would again like to emphasize the impo rtant role that thi s department plays in the health and well-being of Manitobans. It is our vision to enrich the innovative spirit and well-being of Manitobans, and we expect to place signi ficant emphasis on this vision. As we look to the future, we will increas ingly be working to building aware ness and appreciation of the link between lifestyle issues and overall well-being.

It is our function to celebrate the collective identity of Manitobans by exploring our heritage, expressing our creativity and promoting our diversity and opportunities. In Manitoba, the department and staff fill a signifi cant role in the preservation and protection of many aspects of this provinc e's history so that we can continue to build on past strengths.

Arts, culture, recreati on, immigration, libraries and multicultural ism are vehicles through which thousands of employees and hundreds of thousands of volunteers and contributors play fundamental ro les in the promotion and development of the skills and talents of Manitobans. What must be appr eciated is that the services, programs and initiatives which fall under the auspices of my department have both direct and indirect impacts on the artistic growth, economic success and long-term health of Manitobans.

In the process of meeting the needs of Manitobans, my department has developed strong and productive partn erships with communities and community-oriented groups. These partnerships, prog rams, services, initiatives and staff are important components in Culture, Heritage and Citizenship's endeavours to meet the needs of Manitobans. Combined, they help us continue to make Manitoba an exciting, dynamic and prosperous community in which we are proud to live and raise our families. Under my department's Culture , Heritage and Recreation Programs division, we support a vast cross

section of individuals and organiza tions, ranging from museums, arts organiza tions, galleries and artists to libra ries, recreation and special events. These initiatives reflect the diversity of activities and celebrations which take place every year and celebrate the contribution they make towards Manitobans' outstanding quality of life. Nineteen ninety-five is Manitoba's 125th anniversary in Conf ederation.

It is a time for cel ebrating our growth and achievements, reliving experiences, exploring our countryside and our many geographical and historical attra ctions and expre ssing our pride in Manitoba's heritage. My department's Historic Resources branch has been working with various heritage and historic groups to promote public awaren ess of this milestone. They are a resource for the development of informational packages as well as a special-edition newspaper centring on Manitoba history and heritage themes.

These materials were mailed to a wide audience, including museums, schools, historic societies and arc heological societies.

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 35 Beginning in 19 94-95, and continuing this year, my department has also provided administra tive, financial and consultative support to the special initiativ e, Celebrate Manitoba's 125th, as part of our commitment to encouraging Manitobans' pride in our past. The program is administered by a 21 -rnernber Premier's committee of volunteers with staffmg functions being provided by an executive director and two support staff.

The activities of the committee and staff have included a major public awareness campaign, as well as the planning and development of celebr atory events in honour of our provi nce's 12 5th birthday . We developed and introduced the "proud buffalo" logo and the "Year to Remember" song which were very well received by the public. Communities have been embracing the notion of celebr ating our birthday with over 1, 000 community events being officially registered with the Celebrate office.

In co-operation with Industry, Trade and Tourism, the guest of honour program has been very successful, with over 13 ,000 inquiries for information received from potential tourists, friends and relatives wishing to visit Manitoba during its 125th armiversa ry year. My department will continue to place a priority on Manitoba's cultural industries, both through direct programs for book publishers and through its support for film, video and sound programs operated by the Manitoba Cultural Industries development office.

Support to Manitoba's cultural industries encourages the production and marketing of Manitoba books, films, videos and sound recordings . *

(1220) Some recent proj ects sponsored by CIDO include the film "Long Way Horne" now being shot at Winnipeg sites such as the Fort Garry Hotel, and sound recordings by prominent artists such as Torn Jackson and Walle Larsson. CIDO has co-sponsored, with CKND-TV, a competition for a new short film drama. CIDO is also involved in attrac ting foreign film productions to Manitoba Earlier this month, CIDO organized a five-day tour of Manitoba by major U.S. film producers.

These producers were taken throughout Manitoba to discover the film opportunities of many of the locations in our province and were impressed with both the talent of Manitoba crews and its locations. Department support to Manitoba book publishers has included assistance to upgrade computer systems, staff training and marketing pro jects such as the quarterly newspaper, Prairie Books NOW, which is distributed to 40,000 book buyers throughout western Canada My department's close interact ion with Manitoba Cultural Industries has provided signific ant economic benefits for urban and rural communities.

They have also helped foster a positive interna tional reputation for Manitoba. Manitoba appears to be on the verge of crossing into a new level of activity in cultural industrie s. My department works with many sectors of the community to enhance and develop other cultural resour ces. (Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) I am pleased we were able to assist the Jewish Community Campus of Winnipeg with funding towards the campus pro ject.

Campus is a $20-million multipurpose educational, cultural and recreational complex designed to serve all ages in Winnipeg's Jewish community and the broader community of Winnipeg as well. Not only will campus amalgamate a number of existing services and agencies throughout Winnipeg, it will also provide new uses for heritage buildings in the Fort Osborne Barracks site. Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, through its Recrea tion branch, is committed to helping Manitoba communities develop recreational opportunit ies which will provide identifiable benefits.

Based on the success of a two-year pilot pro ject, a second certificate program to train recreation directors in northern and remote communities is being delivered at Keewatin Community College in partnership with Northern Affairs and Education and Trai ning. These recreation directors, who are employed by the community, are being trained to develop and deliver recreation opportunities which positively impact the health and well-being of the communiti es.

18 36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1995 I have spoken in the past of the results of the research on the pilot program which showed the incidence of crime in communities where a recreation director was employed was reduced by as much as 25 percent. The positive effects of this program include improved physical and mental health of residents and enhanced individual community pride. These effects have an incalculable benefit on community health.

As we approach the 21s t Century there is an increasing emphasis on the adaptation of our communities to the emerging inf ormation technologies and the opportuniti es they represent. Access to these technologies is recognized as an essential part of Manitoba's ability to be a competitive participant in the global marketplace of today and tomorrow. My department is working with communities across Manitoba to enhance our abilities to access, share and exchange informa tional resources on these ra pidly developing electronic highways.

The Public Li brary Services branch is continuing its efforts to meet the recommen dations of the Public Library Advisory Board, a report released in February of 1994. Recommendations in the report called for increased funding for rural and northern public libraries and the automation of all public libraries. A part of our response has been an increase of $1 million in the operating grants for rural and northern public libraries. Rural libra ries received $750,000 directly, and $250,000 was allocated for the purchase of materials.

In 1994-95 this $250,000 increase added approximately 10 ,700 English and 1, 000 French language items in both print and electronic forma ts. Our investment in rural libraries represents an overall operating grant incr ease of 50 percent from $1. 5 million to $2.25 million. To enhance the ability of all Manitoba communities to access the new information networks and technologies we are continuing with our support to automating rural public libraries. To date, 30 of the 45 regional libraries have begun installation of automated libr ary systems.

My staff at Public Library Services have reprioritized our efforts to work closely with each library to provide automation design, technical and implementation support. They are actively encouraging all libraries to automate and become part of the Manitoba automated public library information network, a network designed to improve resources sharing throughout Manitoba.

We are currently running a pilot to test the MAPLIN pro ject at four regional librari es: South Central Regional Library, Morden, Winkler and Altona, Boissevain & Morden Regional Library in the Turtle Mountains, The Pas Li brary and Parkland Regional Lib rary in Dauphin. Initiatives with provincial services division reflect the wide-ranging and carefully co-ordinated efforts of my department to embrace and utilize Manitoba's vast informational resourc es. For example, in 1995-96 we will connect the Legis lative Libr ary to the Public Library Services automated system.

As a result of this automation, the Legis lative Library's cli ents and other libraries throughout the province will be able to borrow books more easily. The Provincial Archives branch is actively preparing the electronic access guide to government records and information, complementing the print version currently used. The producti on of this guide in electronic form will allow Manitoba to enter the Internet with a practi cal public information application. The move to an electronic format also has several benefits which are easily recognized.

It can more readily be updated to reflect any changes in the organiza tion of government departments. It can be searched by users very pr ecisely or scanned broadly to find information, and the potential number of users is greatly increased given the ra pidly increasing numbers of Manitobans using school, library, university and home computers to access the Net. Through these various initiatives, Culture, Heritage and Citizenship is committed to helping Manitobans prepare for the 21s t Century and its informati on-sharing technologies.

The Citizenship division of Culture , Heritage and Citizenship plays the lead role for Manitoba in the recruitment and settlement of immigr ants to the prov ince. A strong immigrant movement to Manitoba is fundamental to the economic and social well-being of the prov ince. The skills, education, experience and individual abilities of immigrants histori cally have been what has helped the province to grow and develop.

June 16, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 37 The role of immigrants today is no less important. Immigr ation brings us talented , skilled people who are an important resource for our future . However, recent fe deral decisions have had a detrimental eff ect on the flow of immigration to this pro vince. It has theref ore been important to have aggressive measures undertaken by the Citizenship division to actively promote Manitoba as a destination of choice to potential emigrants from other continents .

The three main approaches under the independent immigrant promotion and recruitment strategy are No. 1, an advertising campaign involving the promotion of Manitoba through direct response by using specific numbers for a 24-hour, Winnipeg-based call centre; secondly, the use of worl dwide bulletins promoting immigration to Manitoba on the Internet system with regular E-mail correspondence and home page promot ion to support it; and thirdly, an information and education program involving joint promotion and recruitment initiatives with fe deral posts abroad.

From this campaign, our results have been very encouraging. Between the adverti sing and Internet activity, we have made 846 contacts with potential imm igrants to Manitoba; 569 of these were made through the high-tech forum of the Internet. Of the 846, we remain in active contact with 804.

By our reports as many as 15 percent of those appear to be in various stages of immigrati on to Manitoba Citizenship has distributed more than 1,400 Manitoba Advantage fulfilment kits in answer to direct inquiries. * (1 230) As well, an active initiative is underway to involve community organizations in our promotion activiti es. We intend to be expanding our media campaigns into other parts of the world, including Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia, South China, United States and the Philippines .

We will also build on the success of our Internet campaign through expanded, regular bulletins and updating of our home page . Through the contact made by these mechani sms, staff are able to follow up on a case-by-case basis to identify economic and labour market oppor tunities and niches to match the response expertise. We share an interdepartmental committee which improves our co-ordination with other government departments to deal as promptly as possible with the needs ident ified.

In addition, as we develop a stronger connection to the community supports and resources that are available within some communiti es, it will mean that potential immigran ts can have a better, more realistic view of the current labour-market needs in Manitoba. We are confident that this will ensure those cases supported by Manitoba will actually be selected by Canada.

Throughout this year staff will also work with communities who have identified an interest in promotion and recruitment, such as the Winnipeg Jewish Community Council, the Philippine Association of Manitoba, the Chinese Cultural Centre, and the Ukrainian National counci l. It is our plan to actively work with other communiti es, as well, as they identify an interest in promoting Manitoba. The promotion of Manitoba in other countries is an essen tial component of our planning for th

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-1-19
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 1st hansardpdf 19.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	673d551a26be5e9b5f49848ae9bb36f69473e828

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