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March 22, 1990

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT, 1990 / LOI DE 1990 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L’ÉDUCATION

TAX INCREASES

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT

TAX INCREASES

AFTERNOON SITTING

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

TONYA GOSS

GREEK INDEPENDENCE DAY

EDUCATION OF HEARING-IMPAIRED

WORKERS’ COMPENSATION

DON MCEWEN

GREEK INDEPENDENCE DAY

CHRONIC CARE

GO TRANSIT

ONTARIO FARM WOMEN’S NETWORK

PAKISTANI NATIONAL DAY

STATEMENT BY THE MINISTRY

DRUG ABUSE

RESPONSES

DRUG ABUSE

ORAL QUESTIONS

TIRE DUMPS

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

VISITORS

ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT

ROUGE VALLEY

EMPLOYMENT EQUITY

CHILD ABUSE

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

AMBULANCE SERVICES

VOTING IRREGULARITIES

GENERAL MOTORS VAN PLANT

TIRE DUMPS

SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION

COUNTY GOVERNMENT

PROGRAM FUNDING

WATER RESOURCES

PETITIONS

ANIMALS FOR RESEARCH

PRIVATIZATION

NATUROPATHY

INTRODUCTION OF BILL

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

ORDERS OF THE DAY

INSURANCE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1989 / LOI DE 1989 MODIFIANT DES LOIS CONCERNANT L’ASSURANCE

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT, 1990 / LOI DE 1990 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L’ÉDUCATION

Mr R. F. Johnston moved second reading of Bill 112,

An Act to amend the Education Act.

The Deputy Speaker: The member has up to 10 minutes to make his presentation.

Mr R. F. Johnston: It is with great pleasure that I rise today to introduce this bill. Members have seen another bill in Orders and Notices, and I will explain some of those changes, if I might, in a few minutes.

This all began for me, I guess, in April 1988 when Gary Malkowski from the Ontario Association of the Deaf came to my office to talk about strategies for trying to get change within the Ministry of Education around deaf education. I was so stunned by the litany of problems that he brought forward at that time that I introduced a resolution on 5 May 1988 which was passed by this House unanimously, or by voice vote, and which called for a review of education. The Minister of Education then kindly took up that challenge and brought forward a review.

It had been my intention to bring forward this piece of legislation last December because I was becoming worried that the report of that review was taking too long coming in and I wanted to use this bill to promote that kind of process. It was due to be debated on 21 December. On 20 December the government brought forward the review -- one of those great modern miracles -- and on 21 December the House leaders basically said that we would not have private members’ day that day anyway.

My difficulty since then has been to try to bring forward a piece of legislation that would in fact reflect the review, but it is very difficult to do that when you are not supposed to change things dramatically between sessions. So instead, I decided to stay with much the same point and thrust that I had brought forward in December, although there are many things in that external review report that I applaud and would hope the government will move on.

Looking back on my resolution, I see it addressing very specifically affirmative action for teachers and, as well, the administration of schools for the deaf and that kind of thing, and I hope the government will move on that wide range of issues.

But the one I have chosen to focus on is the issue of American sign language and its use in the school system as a language of instruction and as a heritage language. The reason I have chosen that as a place to focus is not because it is the only thing to deal with but because in some ways it points up what was the most long-standing division within the deaf and hearing-impaired community over the centuries, going back to the fights between the founder of Gallaudet University and Alexander Graham Bell in terms of the most appropriate way to teach people basic literacy and the ability of people who are deaf to communicate.

I have chosen this because the coalition of forces that supported the resolution and then worked so actively with the government on the review put aside all their differences and raised the whole notion that choice should be available for the various methodologies that are there and that nobody should be excluded.

That is not the intent of this legislation. The legislation’s intent is one of choice. Therefore, as the government has done on a couple of occasions when it has put in legislation and noticed at the last minute that there has been a problem, I would propose an amendment that would be accepted, I hope, by all people if we went to committee on this, which would basically require the American sign language to be made available for use, rather than require it to be used. This would then allow the regulatory process which this bill opens up to provide for ways that this could be done which would not exclude other kinds of options in the school system.

I think it is very important to do this, even though I am one of those people who is absolutely convinced about the importance of American sign language to the culture of the deaf in our society and to their empowerment, as we have seen in that wonderful explosion at Gallaudet a couple of years ago and now the development of our own community here in Ontario speaking out so much more strongly as a group.

I think that kind of notion is one that we should be adopting as well, but I do not want to foist that on the province and say that is the only way to go. I want to open the door for it to be possible, because we must recognize that it is not possible in Ontario now to have American sign language reinforce that basic cultural fact.

There are some wonderful studies out there that show the difference between deaf children who come into the school system here and in the United States whose parents are deaf, compared with children who come in whose parents are hearing. Where the language at home is American sign language, the child coming in from that home usually comes in with the same kind of capacity to read and to communicate and with the same language skills as does the hearing child coming from a hearing home,

whereas the child who is deaf coming from a hearing home often comes in with major deficits in his capacity to communicate. I think it is a very important point. The difficulty is, of course, that 10 per cent of deaf kids are from homes where they have deaf parents; 90 per cent have hearing parents. So this must be recognized as well when we move in this direction.

There have been good studies out of Gallaudet. I recommend to members the paper Unlocking the Curriculum: Principles for Achieving Access in Deaf Education, which has been released by them, talking again about this notion of bilingualism being the concept that should be followed in terms of educating children with major hearing impairments.

I have had letters from parents who have been frustrated by the system. I do not know if other members have received those over the last number of months. Some of them are incredibly troubling in terms of the inflexibility of both our provincial schools and our regular school system to be able to accommodate people who want to be able to expand their ASL, but there just is not a capacity to do that at this moment.

There is one letter here that draws a parallel which I think is really appropriate, both in terms of language construction and in terms of the concept of this being a heritage language, which is the second part of this bill. The quote is from this family, the Baileys:

They then go on to make the argument of the parallel between this and learning ASL, or la langue des signes québécois for French kids in Ontario. I think it is vital that we recognize that.

The final thing I would say -- and there is not much time in 10 minutes to deal with these matters -- is that as a heritage language, it would offer a wonderful opportunity for hearing kids and deaf kids to learn American sign language together in the school system, develop the communication and open the world for hearing children to other kinds of possibilities of expression that we do not have in our straight verbal and oral expression today.

I encourage members in the House to support this permissive piece of legislation and forgive, if they will, the flaw in drafting which I recognize has been there. I encourage us to move forward to finally put to rest this long debate about the denial of American sign language, this repression, as I see it, of the deaf community and to give this bill the support that I believe it deserves.

Mr Jackson: I am very honoured to follow my colleague the member for Scarborough West to speak in support of this bill, as I was honoured on 5 May 1988 to rise in this House and support his resolution, which was rather an extensive resolution but which dealt specifically with moving this province to develop the Review of the Educational Programs for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students in Ontario.

This is a most outstanding piece of work, for which the government is to be commended, but we also cannot lose sight of the fact that it was the member for Scarborough West who has been the driving force in support of the future of hearing-impaired children in our province. I cannot take enough occasions to commend him.

Every member of this Legislature is here today to present the best educational possibilities and options for deaf children in Ontario. That is the only reason we are here today to support this bill, and it is the only reason that we should be here in order to debate this bill. We should do that in a most nonpartisan way.

We should do it because the issues affecting these children who we are hoping to help are in fact achieved in their best interests, their best interests for their educational opportunities in the future, for their ability to communicate more effectively, to broaden their horizon of academic learning and to unlock for them, if you will, opportunities for their own self-empowerment, not only within their own community of severely challenged hard-of-hearing friends but also within the general community.

I, for one, recognize very much the importance of the comments that many parents have made with respect to some of the concerns they have with introducing yet another option for parents to have to overcome. Some have indicated to me the difficulties which American sign language may present to them now that they have learned simple sign language.

I can tell the House from my own personal view, at one point, believe it or not, Mr Speaker, I had a minimal command of sign language. My mother is gifted with having the capacity to work in nine languages, one of which is sign, because her brother, my uncle, since the age of six was completely deaf. I recall those days of my early childhood, the difficulty communicating with my uncle, and it left a lasting impression of the limitations of his life experience because he was not allowed the fullness and the richness of these options for communication.

As we read more of the literature, which I again credit the member for Scarborough West for introducing to all members of this House, it causes us to read and rethink some of our assumptions about how deaf people communicate, the very difficult understanding that we must have to understand exactly what American sign language is all about, and yet with the information he has presented us, it is a most compelling argument to support this bill.

I for one am supporting it for that reason. As the Education critic for the Progressive Conservative Party, I clearly see the potential for growth and development for our children. I also recognize that the report does represent some additional challenges and in fact some long-term costs on behalf of the government. But when I look at these recommendations that came from the report, I cannot help but be convinced that this is an agenda whose time has come. It is obvious that alternative action to empower the deaf community to have teachers who are themselves deaf is something we should support.

We have supported that through the 1970s and the 1980s in this province when we have dealt with various issues surrounding assistance for the disabled.

The government should be supporting, for example, curriculum development. All the items that have been enumerated in the report are worthy of our support and I think the government should be supporting this basic first step, which is to recognize the American sign language as set out in Bill 112 and also to recognize that this is enabling legislation.

It is a piece of legislation that provides choices, that provides opportunities, and specifically, as I have indicated in my support for the bill, it allows the capacity for children to unlock the potential development of their cognitive skills, something we are now beginning to appreciate may be limited in part by some of the current methodologies used for communication in the deaf community.

I want to commend the member for his diligence with this bill. On behalf of my colleague the member for Scarborough West, I want to welcome in the House today members of the deaf community who I know are here and anxious about the outcome of the vote today. I also am inspired by the fact that they have their own interpreters and are here to see our government in action in a very personal, meaningful way. I would also indicate to them, through their interpreter, that the number of members in the House today is no reflection of the interest being shown for this bill. In fact, more members of the House will be here at the time of the vote to show our very strong support of this bill.

When I spoke in support of my friend the member for Scarborough West in 1988, I was very hopeful the government would follow his model for a co-operative model for reviewing, with an internal and an external examination, all matters relative to educating the deaf in this province.

I also want to commend the government of Ontario for following that model. I believe the consistency of the recommendations, both from the internal report and the external report, in support of the resolution of the member for Scarborough West, speaks well not only of the government’s willingness to allow the report to be independent but also of the importance of our passing this resolution today.

I was somewhat disappointed that the Minister of Education did not respond in a more positive way in December of last year when the report was made public. However, in spite of that and, as I said earlier, in a nonpartisan way, it is our hope that he and his government, like all members of this House, will appreciate the importance of passing this resolution so we can get on with the important work of strengthening the curriculum, hiring the additional teachers, bringing in place an affirmative action plan and strengthening our commitment to the deaf community in this province.

In closing, I want to quote from the statements I made back on 5 May 1988 when I spoke to this issue originally. I was taken by the words of Harlan Lane in his work When the Mind Hears. He said something that struck me as very important: “What matters deafness of the ear, when the mind hears? The one true deafness, the incurable deafness, is that of the mind.”

I ask all members of this House to support this bill in support of those children in the province who are awaiting our decision.

[Interruption]

The Deputy Speaker: Before we proceed with the next speaker, may I remind our honourable visitors in the public gallery that applauding is not permitted.

Mr Keyes: I am pleased to speak also on the private member’s bill that has been proposed by the honourable member for Scarborough West.

This government recognizes the complexity and the sensitivity of the issue of American sign language as a language of instruction for the deaf. As a caring society, we must seriously take into consideration the demands, the expectations, the philosophies and the emotions of everyone involved in the issue of deaf education.

Language can be defined in various ways, and one of our responsibilities as legislators is to determine which language or languages can best serve the needs of deaf people in Ontario, which language can remove those obstacles which tend to impede the progress and limit the capabilities of those with hearing impairments.

I am pleased to speak in favour of the principle enunciated in Bill 112 as put forward by the honourable member for Scarborough West. This government is supportive of it on the basis of his introductory explanatory remarks, which makes ASL available as an optional language of instruction.

In keeping with the recommendations of the external and the internal review committee, we agree that ASL be made available as a language of instruction in the future in Ontario schools, but keeping mindful some of the limitations and the guidelines that were put forward by that review to which the members have referred: that it be publicized and promoted as one of a number of options; that the ministry immediately begin to work in practical arrangements and procedures for curriculum development; that the

schedule for gradual implementation at selected locations and selected grade levels be introduced; particularly that there be extensive training for parents in ASL; that there be pilot project and research studies to provide a theoretical and a practical basis for the use of ASL as a language of instruction.

It is most important to foster and maintain the variety of communication systems currently employed throughout Ontario. The government is very much aware of the support of the Ontario Association of the Deaf and the Canadian Hearing Society, which support ASL as an option rather than as the mandated language of instruction. We must also be aware of the concerns that have been raised by others in this particular field. I reiterate the comments made as the team travelled this province and heard about the strong emotions of people in the community, parents as well as teachers, who are involved in the education of deaf and hard-of-hearing children.

It should also be remembered that no other jurisdiction in the world -- no other school, no post-secondary institution has ever mandated ASL as the language of instruction, but as referred to by the member for Scarborough West, it is permitted as an option in some jurisdictions. It is very important to reiterate the intentions of the government to initiate a pilot project in ASL at the E. C. Drury school in September 1990, and hopefully and most likely, two other provincial schools for the deaf by September 1991.

The Ministry of Education will continue to foster and encourage program opportunities and placements that take into consideration the diverse demands of various stakeholders, the local concerns, the expectations and the conflicting communication philosophies. Education of the deaf is a complex matter, but yet we all agree that these children, deaf and hard-of-hearing children, should not be denied their natural birthright, which is language. I urge members to support the honourable member’s bill.

Miss Martel: I want to join in support today of the bill that is being moved by my colleague, Bill 112, and I want to support as well some of the changes, amendments etc which we recognize now are necessary in order to say exactly what we want to say around having a choice in this province for students who are deaf and hearing-impaired. I hope all members recognize what we are trying to do: the fact that we expect there will be changes and that those changes are necessary, and that government members will vote with us based on the fact that those changes will come.

I would have liked to have more information on LSQ. Unfortunately, two things happened that I want to mention. First, like anything else we do around here, I left it a little bit too late. By the time I contacted legislative research to get some information from Quebec on LSQ, I did not leave them enough time to get some of the information. So while we had a great discussion with people working in centres there concerning the language and how it is used by people in Quebec, we were not able to get some of that surveying documentation here. I will have to give it to my colleague when it arrives. I do want to thank legislative research for the work it did in very short order.

That report, I am told, was given to the minister on Monday. It has been printed and was presented to him, but he has not presented it to this House. I have been told that he was waiting to make an announcement about it and then would table that document here in the Legislature. I think that puts some of us at a very distinct disadvantage when we are trying to deal with a bill of my colleague that talks about both ASL and LSQ.

I am a little bit resentful if the minister has this document on his desk, knowing full well we are debating this bill in here today. He should at least have presented it to us so that those of us who are concerned about this matter, as I assume all of us are, would at least have had the opportunity to review the document and make some comments about it here today. I am sorry the minister is not here, and I did want to say that part of the problem I am having is that he has not had the opportunity or the willingness to release that document to all of us.

In any event, there are two things I want to deal with around LSQ: first, some very basic information about what LSQ is and, second, two of the recommendations that come from that report. While the minister has not tabled the report, I know one of the people who sat on that review committee, and last night at midnight we got that information together over the phone. It was an interesting process because the gentleman involved is deaf. I was using the relay service at midnight, talking to the operator in French.

He was pounding out the recommendations on his telecommunications device for the deaf and gave it to me over the phone. I have missed a few words, but I will do the best I can. I appreciate the Bell operator who was so good as to help us late last evening.

Il y a quelque chose à dire à propos de la LSQ : la LSQ, c’est la langue des signes québécois. La LSQ a été développée au Québec. Il existe des indications que la majorité de la communauté sourde au Québec utilise la langue des signes québécois.

Aussi, il paraît que la LSQ a une certaine popularité ici dans la communauté francophone sourde en Ontario, comme l’a la ASL dans la communauté anglophone en Ontario.

La structure et la grammaire de la LSQ sont similaires à celles de la ASL, mais il y a quelques signes qui sont différents. II est estimé qu’à peu près 30 ou 35 pour cent de similarité existe entre les deux langues ; toutes les deux sont abstraites et leur concept a été développé par des idées.

La langue des signes a été développée en France : toutes les deux, la ASL et la LSQ, sont dérivées de celle-là. L’Institut Raymond-Dewar, qui est l’institut avec lequel nous avons parlé pour ce rapport cet après-midi, utilise la LSQ dans la plupart de son travail.

I want to deal for a moment with what the people in the review said about the use and the importance of ASL. They said: “If we believe in the importance of language in education, we have to wish for every child a natural learning context in which that child is energetically involved. So the question becomes: Which language is most accessible and most natural to a deaf child? Many believe it is easier for a deaf person to use a visually coded language, than an aurally coded language.”

The second example comes from a deaf student who attended Sir James Whitney School for the deaf in Belleville. He said that he uses ASL at home and he uses it with his deaf friends. I am quoting: “I prefer to use ASL because it is easier to communicate and get a better understanding. It lets you get a picture in the mind clearly and it is a more reflexive language.”

We have the same thing from people who are using LSQ in Montreal. In this case, the particular woman involved is a psychologist at McGill University who deals directly with deaf education. She has said, “It turns out that there’s a language centre in the brain that maps itself on to the hand or tongue -- with equally expressive abilities.”

In Sudbury, for example, not only do they want the ASL and LSQ when they can be developed and utilized in the school system, but there has been a need recognized by the Canadian Hearing Society in Sudbury that this has to start with preschoolers and that parents need much more training to deal with their children before they even enter the school system. In this case, the regional director, Sherry Malcho, said, “Preschoolers are now taught oral speech, and parents of deaf children have made it clear that they would like to have an option between that method and American sign language method or its French equivalent, langue des signes québécois.”

Finally, I was very encouraged yesterday when I talked to the Sudbury Board of Education, a group that presented to the external review committee, to find out that it has already moved forward and accepted it. They are in fact looking forward to the debate today and hope that this bill put forward by my colleague will be passed.

The Sudbury Board of Education is now running ASL courses for its teachers and for parents as a result of the task force recommendations. They also have plans to offer a credit course at the secondary level, but that is going to depend on how much interest they can get in the community. However, as a board, they feel that the interest will be there. I congratulate them on the work they are doing.

At this point, I might just mention the gentleman I was dealing with over the phone last night, who was awarded a community service award by this province in November 1989 for the work he has done with the deaf community, and particularly the francophone community. I think there would be a significant statement made by the government today if in fact it agreed with the bill put forward by my colleague.

The constituent, Roger St Louis, has worked long and hard for many years promoting ASL and LSQ, and it would seem to me today that the government should put its money where its mouth is, not only giving him awards and credit but actually putting into place some of his ideas and some of the dreams that he and other people in the gallery have had for many, many years.

I conclude with what I see as our role here today: Given that there is opposition around signing but given the fact that people need to have a choice, let me quote Dr Jarnie MacDougall, a researcher at the McGill Study of Deaf Children in Canada. He says: “Obviously, deaf people need to use whatever hearing they may have, but the overwhelming majority of them want to go on using sign language. As educators and professionals” -- and I might add, as legislators – “we should accept that. It’s time we stopped deciding for the deaf community.”

I urge all members to support the bill put forward by my colleague.

Mr Sterling: A few months ago I had very little to do with this whole issue but have been brought up to date since that time, as the introduction of Bill 83, whether by intent or otherwise -- I am sure it was otherwise -- actually did raise the issue to perhaps a higher plane than it would have been on if the member had introduced and carried Bill 112 as we are considering it here today. I believe it was perhaps through my corresponding with Elgin and Sheila Duke from Kinburn, Ontario, in my riding which brought some alarm to some of the groups involved with the deaf.

Voice for Hearing Impaired Children in Ottawa wrote to the Minister of Education once it had been informed of the actual wording of Bill 83. The objections to Bill 83 related to the mandating of ASL, American sign language, as the exclusive language to be used in our educational program. In response to that, Voice wrote to the Minister of Education and, of course, sent a copy to the member for Scarborough West and indicated that many, many parents would choose another sign language or another method of communication than American sign language.

In the recent study by the Ministry of Education, very few parents would choose American sign language, but that may be because many of them are not aware of the potential of that method of communication. Today, of course, we have a bill which is very different; it is permissive and allows the use of American sign language in our schools.

I also want to say that in response to the report Review of Ontario Education Programs for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students, which was prepared by the Ministry of Education, I received a response from Mrs Duke. I want to read a little bit from it, because I think there is some unfair criticism in that report. Referring to the report, it said:

“It is also reported that boards have trouble providing appropriate programs in regular schools because of low incidence of hearing impairment. In spite of this, the boards in the Ottawa area go to great lengths to provide a variety of appropriate programs. It is my personal experience that the Carleton Board of Education offers an extensive array of programs and services ranging from small class placements to full mainstreaming. Itinerant teachers of the hearing-impaired, teacher aides, educational interpreters and an educational audiologist are available as required.

A variety of personal FM systems and computerized testing equipment for those amplification devices are available. Hearing-impaired students in this board are integrated with their normally hearing peers in all programs ranging from those for slow learners or learning-disabled, vocational training to enrichment and gifted programs. Students who require a total communication approach attend segregated classes operated by the neighbouring Ottawa Board of Education. Similar exemplary programs are offered by boards in Metro Toronto.

“The facts are that many integration or mainstream programs run by boards are demonstrating excellent results and these boards are not specifically recognized or given credit in this report. While these programs are successful, I do agree with statements in the report that there is a great need to develop and strengthen programs and program options in all boards across Ontario.”

I wanted to give some credit to the local boards of education which in some cases in the Ottawa area -- the Ottawa Board of Education and the Carleton Board of Education in particular are mentioned here -- have done an excellent program in the past.

I do want to add that the next paragraph deals with the funding of those boards and the dramatic decreases in provincial help and their concern that these programs that are specifically designed for the deaf will be cut out as a result of the cutback of provincial funding by this government.

I support the member’s bill emphatically.

Mr Lipsett: I would like to speak briefly in support in principle of Bill 112 regarding education for the deaf and hard of hearing in Ontario.

Having explored the findings of the Review of Ontario Education Programs for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students prepared by the Ministry of Education in 1989 and having received a number of letters from people and organizations, some in support of the bill and some with concerns about it, I feel that all alternatives and options must be explored by this Legislature, including the use of ASL and LSQ in the education of deaf and hard-of-hearing pupils.

In light of these observations, the external review teams recommended that provision be made for province-wide collection of data, including an ongoing census of deaf and hard-of-hearing individuals, which would allow these children to be followed as they progress through the education system and facilitate service to them. The review team also recommended that the tests of student achievement measure sign language skills as well as other communications skills such as reading, writing, speaking and listening.

Again, I support this bill in principle but would like to see more detailed analysis and consultation take place before a definite date of implementation is proclaimed.

Mr Epp: First of all, I want to compliment the member for Scarborough West for bringing forth this particular bill and the other members for supporting it. Supporting Bill 112 is easy for me because I believe it to be timely and helpful to the present situation and to the deaf community in this province. In fact, it was the deaf community in my constituency that first drew the importance of this amended bill to my attention. They believe it to be to their advantage, and who am I to second-guess them? I have had three representations on this particular bill: two deaf people and one hearing person.

Both the deaf people were supportive of the bill and one person, a hearing person, questioned the bill and had certain concerns about it.

ASL is a visual, spatial language used by a large part of the deaf community in Canada and the United States. It has its own grammar and syntax. Unfortunately, ASL is not used in teaching deaf students in the school system, even where there are many willing students available. The deaf education review of the Ministry of Education recommends the establishment of a pilot project in 1990 and the institution of making ASL a language of instruction in 1991.

We are not talking of substituting one sign language with another but of enhancing the one we have with another, giving it an international flavour, so to speak, if only on a limited scale. Some people will ask for more study, more thought, more contemplation, more procrastination. I believe there has been enough of all four. It is now time to stand side by side with the deaf in our community. Let’s all support Bill 83.

Mr Reycraft: I welcome the opportunity to join in the debate on private member’s Bill 112. I too want to applaud the member for Scarborough West for his continuing interest in and support for improvement of the quality of education for the deaf in Ontario. That quality of education has been somewhat maligned, I believe, in recent months.

I am familiar with an incident that occurred at the Robarts school for the deaf in London, which is not in my riding but very near to it. A large demonstration was held there essentially to promote the use of ASL in the educational system and to advocate the hiring of greater numbers of deaf teachers in those schools.

Unfortunately, the message that went out to the public following that demonstration was somewhat different. The message, as indicated by the headline in the London Free Press the next day, was that the quality of education being offered at that school was inferior. In fact, the exact word used was “lousy.”

I want to respond very briefly to that because I am familiar with Robarts and I personally know many of the teachers who work there. I believe the quality of education that is available and offered to the deaf at that school is excellent. I believe there is nowhere in North America where a higher quality of education for the deaf can be obtained. Indeed, over the past few weeks I have received many letters from parents of students at Robarts attesting to their satisfaction with the education at Robarts and with the quality that is provided for their children.

I believe the perception that was created by the story in the London Free Press does not match the reality. Indeed, I have been advised that a survey of Robarts graduates over the past six years indicates that 34 per cent of them go on to post-secondary education and that fully 93 per cent of the graduates of Robarts programs are employed. I think those statistics attest to the quality of education that is offered there.

I had some difficulty with the original bill that was introduced by the member for Scarborough West, and even this week, when I read its substitute, Bill 112, I was concerned. My

interpretation of the bill was essentially the same as that which was provided for him by the Ontario Teachers’ Federation, that it would require ASL to be used as a language of instruction in all schools where deaf education was provided.

I think many who advocate the use of ASL as a language of instruction do so because they are concerned about the achievement levels in reading and writing with which graduates of our schools for the deaf leave the educational system. They believe that introducing ASL as a language of instruction will improve the reading and writing abilities of deaf students. That may be the case, but it may not be as well. I do not believe there is any educational research that indicates that will be the case.

Like all members, I received a letter from Henry Whalen, president of the Ontario Association of the Deaf, in which he indicated that it would make that kind of improvement. I asked for some information that would support that. Mr Whalen was very helpful in supplying me with a number of pieces of information but, in reading it, I do not believe it provides the kind of information and the kind of support I was seeking. Indeed, some of the information indicates there is still a great need for research into the impact of using ASL as a language of instruction in the schools.

I believe the pilot project that the minister has announced for this September will help supply some of that research information, and I look forward to seeing the results of that.

With those remarks, I will conclude my address. I do believe that while it is not inappropriate for political pressure to lead to changes in our system of our education, those changes should also be based on sound educational research.

Mrs Stoner: It is a real pleasure for me to rise today to speak in support of Bill 112 and in support of American sign language as an optional language of instruction for the deaf children of Ontario. My support comes from a number of perspectives. It comes from the perspective of support for the Voice organization of parents in my community. I speak as a member of the Legislature who has a deaf employee on my own staff. But most of all I speak as the parent of a deaf child.

My daughter Katie is a student at Sir James Whitney, the school for the deaf in Belleville, and I know at first hand the isolation of the deaf in a hearing world. For many, ASL will provide the mechanism for a speedy, eloquent communication language. It can help provide meaningful social interaction in a community that is not available to many of the deaf in the hearing world.

I think this is a great step forward. I commend the member for his bill and I thank all members for the support I hope they will give it.

Mr R. F. Johnston: I want to thank all members for their support, much of it because of the changes we made. I admit the changes were only to clarify an intent which was supposed to be there. I am very thankful to everyone for their participation and support today, as must be our friends in the gallery who must be very gratified to see this kind of support. Before I go further, I would like to thank Gary Malkowski, Patricia Shores-Hermann and the others who have educated me so much in the last couple of years around these issues. They have been very important to me.

This is probably my last private member’s initiative. Some of them have been successful in the past, others have not. I am pleased that, by the sound of things here today, this will be moving forward. I think it is important for all members to be able to see the private members’ hour as a useful process, that things can come to fruition, that some change can be effected and that there can be some impact whether you are a government backbencher or whether you are in the opposition. It is my hope that from this time on we will move to seeing some major changes.

I am glad the government is moving on the pilot project. I think that is an important implementation mode to take. But the reason this bill has been brought forward is to say that the principle first has to be accepted that ASL is a language in its own right and deserves a place in the education of the deaf and in that community. It seems to me you have to accept that principle first and then move on to your pilot projects. If you just move on to a pilot project without accepting that, then the pilot project can be assessed, found wanting, even be seen to be successful and then dropped.

The long-standing debate about the integrity of this language for the deaf community is something I think finally we have to accept as an option for people who wish to take it.

When I gave my speech in June 1988, I started off with a very wooden performance of sign language, which, having seen it on videotape afterwards, horrified me. That is why I am not trying it again today in terms of giving my thanks. It re-emphasizes something I have learned recently, which is that one of the major arguments for dealing with ASL early is that because it is a language in its own right, and because it has a different kind of concept within it spatially etc, it is vital to learn it early if that communication is to be really articulate. It is very difficult for old-timers like myself to try to pick it up.

I know the parliamentary assistant and the government are anxious that if this is to pass, it go on to committee of the whole House rather than to one of the standing committees. I do not have difficulty with that in the sense that we have already had a major public discussion through the-review process that has taken place. I think people understand that we can move the kind of amendment I was talking about in committee of the whole House as easily as we can do that in a standing committee of the House.

But I worry a little bit about the tendency that may develop -- not to say it is developing -- which would start to use the committee of the whole House as a way of deep-sixing initiatives by private members.

I would suggest to the parliamentary assistant, if he can take it back to the minister and to the government House leader, it would be our intention and I am sure the third party’s intention as well that a session of the committee of the whole House could take place very quickly and that the next move could be half an hour later if the government wishes in terms of taking the initiative to make this law.

For a private member it would be glorious to be one of the handful in the whole history of this place who actually saw his or her legislation become law. I am not wedded to that. If the government instead wishes to bring forward its own law and bring this quickly through various stages, I would welcome that as well. I do not take personal ownership of this initiative but rather wish the initiative to be taken and a context for the pilot projects to be set.

Again, I just thank all members for their support and hope that the government will accommodate that and try to bring this forward and squeeze it in among some of its other major priorities in the next little while to show the good wishes both of myself in terms of my amendment and the government’s own commitment to the pilot project process it is undertaking.

TAX INCREASES

Mr Harris moved resolution 38:

That in the opinion of this House, recognizing that 32 tax hikes have been inflicted on the people of Ontario since 1985 because of government growth and spending increases, the government of Ontario should immediately freeze current public service staffing levels and present a balanced budget with no tax increases in the spring of 1990.

Mr Harris: I am pleased to have the opportunity this morning to talk about what I believe is leading to a very uncompetitive situation in our jurisdiction vis-à-vis the rest of Canada, vis-à-vis the jurisdictions that our businesses and our companies must compete with.

First of all, right at the outset I want to put into context what my motion means, what restrictions it would put on the Treasurer, on the Premier, on the executive council. I would urge all the members of this Legislature to support this resolution and to say that we, the people, think there is a limit as to what you can give one person the power to do when those decisions of the budget have such an impact upon all of our province.

I have said in my resolution that there should be no tax increases. If people have read the prebudget submissions that I prepared on behalf of our party for the last three or four years, the same principles were there and I called for the same thing each and every one of those times in the prebudget submissions, and it has fallen on deaf ears. I am taking this opportunity today to present it in a little different way and at least try to get agreement in principle.

If there is a tax freeze, according to the Treasurer’s own figures, revenues into the Treasury this year will go up 8.1 per cent. All our taxes are indexed. They will all go up by the rate of inflation. The 1.6 per cent real growth that Treasury has given me and that it is predicting for Ontario in the next year produces the additional revenue, and after the $1-billion windfall that the Treasurer received a few weeks ago, we should be looking at revenues, without a tax increase, of about $44.1 billion or $44.2 billion coming into the province.

The projection for inflation for Ontario is 5.8 per cent over the next year. So, if we do not cut one single thing, if we maintain all the new spending increases and programs, there will be in excess of $1 billion of new money come into the provincial Treasury this year as a result of the tax mechanisms that we have in place.

Some people have said to me, “How can you have a tax freeze and still balance the budget?” As we know, with the $1-billion windfall that came in, the budget is in effect in a balanced position today, depending on what new spending increases run amok over the last three months of this period.

What I am asking members to approve in principle today as a direction for budgetary policy does not require the government to cut anything. Those who have heard me speak in this House over the past nine years and who have followed some of the things I am calling for know that I have indicated I would like to cut some things. I have said that publicly and I have indicated some of the areas that I would cut.

But under what I am asking members to approve today, the government would not have to cut anything. All it would have to do, if this is adopted by this Legislature and by the government, is to say, “We will not increase growth beyond $1 billion of new money in the next year.” Surely that limited amount of restraint to the overall picture of how we are going to operate in Ontario ought to be supportable by this Legislature.

The second part of my motion calls for a freeze on the growth of the civil service. It has grown, by the government’s own estimates, not including this year, by over 7,000 new civil servants, an increase of about 10 per cent in the past four or five years. Some estimates have that as high as 9,000 or 10,000, depending on the base we can use for the figures. The answer is probably somewhere in between.

I believe we must send out a signal that recognizes that with the federal taxation, provincial taxation and municipal property tax base, we are at or in excess of the limits we need to be to be competitive in this jurisdiction. That is the simple principle and statement I am asking members of this House to support today and send that signal out, as it is our duty, I believe, as elected members of this Legislature to give direction.

This is a different kind of motion to be brought forward in private members’ hour. Most motions are private members’ pet projects or new spending initiatives. It is very easy in opposition, and I know this, to sit back and say: “You are not spending enough money here. We need more grants in northern Ontario. We need this. We need more four-lane highways. Why aren’t you satisfying this need? This interest group feels it is shortchanged School boards need more money.”

I am here today as an opposition member, I think in a responsible way, saying no to everybody: no, not unless it is in the overall context of making sure that Ontario is going to be competitive.

If we look at what has happened over the past five years during relative prosperity, economic good times for the richest province in the country, our debt has gone up 33 1/3 per cent. It was $30 billion when the government took office; it is $40 billion today. The $30 billion was a disgrace -- much better than the federal government, we know that, but it was a disgrace. Some of the people who preceded me and my party have to accept some responsibility for that. But during this boom economic time, to have run that from $30 billion to $40 billion is an even bigger disgrace, and we ought to be ashamed of ourselves as elected members to have been party to that.

When the government took office, there was a tax advantage to locating in Ontario vis-à-vis Quebec. We had a Liberal government here in Ontario and we had a Liberal government in Quebec, operating in the same country and in the same federal fiscal climate. Before this government’s last budget was brought in, here is what had happened. For corporations, in 1985 there was a 9.6 per cent tax advantage to locating your company in Ontario versus Quebec. In 1989, before the government brought in its budget, there was a 1.8 per cent tax advantage. Quebec knew it was uncompetitive, and the same Liberal government through that period of time has cut taxes in Quebec.

For individuals, in 1985 there was a 10.5 per cent tax advantage if you lived in Ontario versus Quebec. Before this government’s last budget, which brought in the new increases in taxes -- the payroll tax, the tire tax and the new fees -- it was down to a two per cent tax advantage. Quebec, with a Liberal government, has recognized the reality that you must be competitive in this area if you want industries to locate in your jurisdiction, to service the North American market or indeed the world market.

The new money that they have -- they still have new money because of increased economic activity, the same way we have -- has gone into infrastructure because they recognize another reality: If we have a competitive tax climate and we put our dollars into infrastructure, sewers, water, roads, hydro -- think of the hydro investments in Quebec over the past 15 years; think of the hydro investments in Ontario, which have been none -- businesses and companies will want to locate in one’s jurisdiction. One will not have to bribe them.

When there is a new plant opening and we are all there to cut the big, fat ribbons and argue about whether they are red or blue and about how many federal dollars brought these 500 jobs to our community or how many provincial dollars brought this factory to our community, we should sit back and say, “What systems do we have in place that were so uncompetitive that we had to bribe this company to come and locate in Ontario?” It is a disgrace. Instead of trying to compensate by more and more grants to bribe them, to have to pay them to come into one’s jurisdiction, we had better begin to look at why we had to bribe them; why we are uncompetitive.

I am asking the members to support this resolution today, which does not put undue restraint on the Treasurer, on the Premier, on the executive council, over this next year.

Mr Pelissero: It is a pleasure to take

part in the debate today. If we look to the honourable member’s resolution, he is asking for two things: a freeze on the public service and a balanced budget. He probably should say a balanced budget again because, for the first time in 20 years, the Treasurer of Ontario has been able to balance the budget. That has been in spite of the cutbacks from the federal Conservative government in Ottawa, in some cases to the tune of almost $2 billion.

He talks about the windfall of almost $1 billion in terms of the taxes that have come back through the income tax system. A little later I will touch on how, as a province, we have been spending the people’s money.

I should tell the member right up front that I am not going to be supporting the resolution for two points. The first point is probably from a traditional role. The member, as he has mentioned, has submitted I guess a minority report in some cases to the standing committee on finance and economic affairs. In the last two or three years they have been doing a budget preparation for the Treasurer, and I think that has been a useful exercise. I was vice-chairman of that committee.

In terms of requests -- as an example, for the educational system -- we had requests, if we granted everyone’s wish list, of close to $7 billion. In education alone, we have managed to increase capital expenditures by more than $1.2 billion over a four-year period compared to what it was in the previous administration.

Second, and I think more important, it is inaccurate to try to imply or to tie together that the public civil service has an impact in terms of balancing the budget and that somehow we as taxpayers are not receiving value for our dollar.

When he became Treasurer in 1985, the Treasurer inherited really three deficits. The first deficit was the operating deficit of almost $2.6 billion on a budget of $26 billion. The second deficit had to do with unfunded liabilities in workers’ compensation and the teachers’ pension plan, and that literally was in the billions of dollars. Third, and I think most important, was the deficit that we inherited as a government and as a Treasurer with respect to a deficit on social services and spending on people.

What is the state of the union today? We heard the Treasurer announce just recently that the budget for 1989-90 will be balanced. On a $41.6-billion budget, we will have balanced it. In terms of spending -- basically, money coming in and going out -- that is the equivalent of about $110 million a day.

What has the province, through the various ministries, been spending that money on? We have been spending it on health care, education, transportation, municipalities, social services, the environment. I think it is important to put on record some of the figures in the last four or five years, when the Treasurer in fact has been the Treasurer.

For example, there have not been any cuts to our health care. In 1984 that was about $8.3 billion out of the total budget. Today, in 1989, our health care budget is approaching $14 billion. There has been about a $5.6-billion increase, or about 67 per cent, since 1984-85. Our social services spending has been up by 95 per cent since 1984. As well, our child care, as an example, has increased 30 per cent year over year. Since 1984 there has been a 90 per cent increase in money allocated to the environment.

The same is true in every ministry. In education, capital allocation for school construction was only $77 million in 1984-85. Last year, in 1989, there was a $1.2-billion announcement of capital allocation, spread over four years. For colleges and universities there were 48 per cent and 42 per cent increases respectively.

Transportation, as an example, was up 46 per cent from 1984. On top of that, there was an additional $2-billion allocation for capital programs, in terms of not only the Toronto area but other parts of the province as well. Spending on municipalities since 1984, in terms of transfers to the municipalities, has increased by 53.6 per cent.

We have also, I guess, from a cash flow perspective, advanced to the municipalities, hospitals, school boards etc, a lot earlier than normally was the case so they are able to plan their budgets more effectively and in some cases look at where they are going to spend the unconditional grants that have come along.

This is in spite of the cuts we have seen from the federal government in a number of established programs, cuts we have had to absorb as a province.

I would like to come back to parliamentary tradition for a second. Normally it is the Treasurer, through various mechanisms, consulting with groups individually or through the standing committee on finance and economic affairs, who presents a budget to the Legislature for its consideration. It is not the other way around, in terms of the Legislature, even though it is by resolution, placing certain restraints and constraints on the Treasurer.

Again, two things were asked for by the member in his resolution; one was a balanced budget and the second component was freezing the civil service. I think it is pretty well a common political trick to try to beat up the civil service when you are in opposition. I am sure the member can drag out all kinds of quotes where Liberal members made statements about the civil service when we were in opposition.

I think it is important to remember that the civil service includes many individuals, men and women, who live in all parts of Ontario, who work and earn and are vital participants in the communities in which they reside. I think it is also most important to recognize that according to the most recent statistics, as of 1 June 1989, Ontario had fewer civil servants per capita than any other provincial government, or indeed the federal government. That would suggest that in Ontario the public service is able to provide its high quality of service more efficiently than anywhere else in Canada.

In order to leave some time for my colleague the member for Middlesex, I simply want to say that I cannot support the resolution put forward by the honourable member for Nipissing.

Mr Wildman: I want to speak briefly to this resolution and to say that in my experience in this House since 1975, arguments over the numbers of civil servants have always struck me as being rather phoney. I say that regretfully because, in my experience, governments of both the Liberal and Tory stripe have patted themselves on the back from time to time about keeping the numbers of the public service down and have argued that this is an indication of how much more efficient the bureaucracy at Queen’s Park is than the bureaucracy in Ottawa, for instance.

Tory governments at Queen’s Park have always pointed to the bloated bureaucracy in Ottawa. Now we hear the Liberal government arguing along similar lines. The fact is, the way the government in Ontario -- and, frankly, the government in Ottawa too -- keeps the number of civil servants down is by contracting out. It might put a limit on the number of civil servants, but that does not mean it is going to limit its expenditure of funds, and it does not mean it is going to limit the numbers of people who are actually working for the provincial government. It just means that more and more people are going to be hired as so-called temporary or nonclassified staff.

Hon Mr Patten: Or full-time consultants.

Mr Wildman: Or consultants, or they are going to be working on these so-called nonrenewable contract jobs.

In my constituency there are people who have worked their whole working careers in the Ministry of Natural Resources and the Ministry of Transportation as so-called unclassified contract employees; they work nine or 11 months a year on a contract, are laid off, collect unemployment insurance for a little while and then start on a new contract the next year, most of them with very few benefits. At one time they had no benefits; they now at least get some sick leave and some medical benefits.

It is a most inappropriate way of delivering service to the province and to the people of Ontario, and it is a most inappropriate way of treating public employees, because that is what they are. To say, “We have limited the total complement of the civil service and therefore we are husbanding the tax revenues in a responsible way,” or “We are delivering service efficiently,” frankly is just a lot of bunk.

The governments must not falsely report the number of people who are actually working for the provincial government, and I believe they must not continue to contract out because inevitably, on nonrenewable contracts, employees are paid substantially less than they would be if they were permanent employees, they have less benefits and there is almost no guarantee, in my view, that the quality of the work they are doing is the same as it would be if they were full-time, well-trained employees of the provincial government within the public service.

Despite the fact that there were promises in 1985 that this practice would end, we have seen that it has been accelerated by the Liberal government. The Ministry of Natural Resources is contracting out more and more of its work, not less. Tree planting is a very good example.

Instead of hiring people, as the Conservative government had done before, even on short-term contracts, to do tree planting directly for the government, this government is now contracting with people who many times are former employees of the Ministry of Natural Resources, who then hire the people who might have worked on temporary contracts directly for the ministry but pay them $7.50 an hour instead of the $11 an hour they would have gotten if they had been working for the ministry.

It is a nice way of being able to say, “We’re able to plant more trees with less money,” but in my view it is also a sort of sweatshop approach to providing service to the people of Ontario, and it is just not appropriate.

I want to make it clear that I am not talking about firefighters for the Ministry of Natural Resources or, for that matter, snowplow crews for the Ministry of Transportation. Everybody recognizes that those are seasonal jobs. I am talking about the numbers of employees who are working for the provincial government as unclassified staff on contracts, who the ministries themselves admit are required by the ministry: the ministries could not operate and could not provide the services for which they are responsible without these employees.

I would like a representative of the government -- and I honestly do not believe I am being partisan in this; I do not care whether it is a Tory government or a Liberal government -- to actually get up some time and say: “These are the numbers of people we need to provide the services that we’re required to provide to the public of this province, and we’re prepared to pay them adequately and ensure that they have the benefits they deserve. We’re not going to give out false numbers about limiting the public service. We’re actually going to be honest with the people of the province and treat our employees as they should be and ensure quality work.”

It is not just in Natural Resources or the Ministry of Transportation that this happens. It happens in every ministry of the government. We see contracting out in the Ministry of Community and Social Services and the Ministry of Health. It is happening right across the government.

I will finish by saying that in my part of the province, where we have had some serious economic dislocation, and that economic dislocation continues, this practice hurts not only the employees but also the communities in which they live and their families. In my view, it is a despicable way of treating the public employees.

In our area of Ontario it sometimes seems that the only growth industry is consultancy. If you want to make money working off the provincial purse in this province, become a consultant. What does a consultant do? A consultant is hired because you want to find out something; so you hire a consultant and the consultant tells you. He says, “What would you like to know?” You tell him what you want to know, and he writes it down and gives it back to you. That is, in essence, what a consultant does, in my view.

There are more and more consultants, and interestingly a number of them are former public employees who leave the public service and then are hired by the government to do the work they would have been doing if they were still in the public service. It is stupid, it is false economy, it is an unfair way of treating employees and, in my view, it does not ensure quality work.

Mr McLean: I am pleased to have this opportunity to say a few words on this extremely important resolution put forward by my colleague the member for Nipissing. I think it is so important that this resolution bears repeating once again. The resolution says, “Recognizing that 32 tax hikes have been inflicted on the people of Ontario since 1985 because of government growth and spending increases, the government of Ontario should immediately freeze current public service staffing levels and present a balanced budget with no tax increases in the spring of 1990.” We will still have a $40-billion budget with that happening.

This government has demonstrated the disastrous tendency of hiring and spending like there is no tomorrow. Unfortunately, in this case the government is right. There is no tomorrow for the taxpayers of Ontario, who are called upon time alter time to dig deeper into their pockets to pay for this government’s casual attitude to the public purse.

My colleague has outlined that since 1985 there have been 32 tax hikes from this Liberal government. It is true that spending increases have averaged 10.1 per cent annually. It is shocking when we speak of the number of new employees who have been hired and where they have been hired. The problem is that the increase has been in administration in ministry offices and not in the field where the real work is done. The government of Ontario is clearly out of step with the people. They do not realize where the tax burden lies. It lies squarely on the backs of the taxpayers in Simcoe East and those throughout the rest of the province.

We have continually raised the issue with regard to administration spending. Based on a review of the expenditures of 25 government ministries, my party determined that the administration spending programs have increased by a whopping 43.7 per cent since this government came to office. l think the people of Ontario should be made aware of this. They should be told that this government is spending like a drunken sailor and not taking the concerns of the people into account. It is going to administration.

Here are some of the facts that the people of Ontario should know. Relative to 1985-86 levels, spending on ministry administration programs in the current fiscal year is up by 50.7 per cent. Spending on administration programs has increased at a greater rate than total budgetary spending in three of the last five years surveyed.

Some of the administrative spending increases in specific ministries are astronomical. When you look at the increase for 1988-89 over 1985-86, for instance, the increase was 350 per cent for the Ministry of Northern Affairs and Mines, 297.5 per cent for the Ministry of Skills Development, 142.9 per cent for the Ministry of Financial Institutions, 116.1 per cent for the Ministry of Colleges and Universities and approximately 100 per cent for both the Ministry of the Environment and the Ministry of the Solicitor General.

These figures are shocking. There is no other word for it when you stop to think that this government is using 32 tax ripoffs to pay administration program costs. This money is not being taken from people to help pay for programs to help people. It is being taken from people to help pay for this government’s program of empire building. That is not acceptable to me and it is not acceptable to the people of this province.

Members may recall that on 19 February, one day before the federal budget, Ontario’s Treasurer made a big production of announcing that his government would balance its budget for the first time in 20 years. But we all know it was no coincidence that the Treasurer chose to make this announcement the day before the federal Minister of Finance tabled his budget. We all know the Treasurer’s balanced budget put his government in a good position politically to respond to the federal budget, which took a hard line on spending and hit federal transfer payments to the provinces.

Ontario still has a $40-billion deficit with the Treasurer still talking about balancing the books. The books are not balanced at all; there is still a $40-billion deficit.

Both the Treasurer and the Premier said that the feds were hitting the poor and our children by cutting transfer payments for health and education. But we know this is not true, because it is up to the province to determine how the transfer payments are spent. If anything, it will be this Treasurer and this Premier who will hit the poor and the children in Ontario. Last year, transfer payments from the feds to the province were up over seven per cent; this year, it will be 2.5 per cent, which is approximately $9.3 billion. So the transfer payments are not being cut. They are still being increased, but the percentage is being cut compared to the 10.1 per cent that this government is spending.

The people of Ontario know these books are not balanced. It was the result of good fortune and not good management. It was good luck and not good policy. The taxpayers of Ontario have not been fooled for one minute. They know that it is no great accomplishment to balance the budget after years of sustained economic growth and massive tax increases. They know that 32 tax increases are a high price to pay for the balanced budget. They know that the budget was balanced on the backs of the taxpayers and not through an effort on the part of this government to control expenditures.

Enough is enough. The logical thing for this government to do is to listen to the member for Nipissing. The logical thing would be to freeze the current public service staffing for their administration and to bring in a balanced budget with no taxes.

It is interesting to note that this year the Treasurer has reduced the budget expenditures in agriculture by over $39 million from what they were in 1988 and 1989. Can you imagine, the very commodity that the people need to live on, and that budget is being reduced.

It is also interesting to read Diane Francis in this morning’s paper -- I usually read her column, it is always interesting, the different perspective that she puts on -- with her views with regard to the Ontario budget. The Treasurer took the opportunity to send a letter back to her. Where she had indicated it was a 10.5 per cent average yearly increase, she says the Treasurer says: “Bottom line is you say government can spend as much as it likes as long as taxes cover it. Put another way, you say taxes are never inflationary.” Well, it is inflationary.

Here is another question that she asks the Treasurer:

“In Ontario, will businesses that must pay your new medical care levy on their payroll, square-footage rent tax (aimed at landlords but paid by tenants) and additional parking lot taxes not cause inflation when they include this in their price structure? If not, that’s great news. I thought we were pricing ourselves out of competition with all these new taxes.”

But according to the Treasurer, it is not. He thinks it is fine to continue to raise taxes and continue to spend at a rate of over 10 per cent a year. He is getting $5,000 out of every man, woman and child in this province, and our debt is still over $40 billion.

It is interesting when you look at some of the statistics with regard to the Office of the Premier how the increased expenditures have taken place there, over $235 million increase in one year -- unbelievable; the Cabinet Office, the increased expenditures there; administrative costs in every ministry, the increased expenditures there.

This great tax increase has gone to pay for administration. It has not gone to pay for the government programs that people need the help from. That is in essence what raising taxes is about: to provide the services, to provide the programs. No doubt a percentage has gone to that, but the greatest percentage has gone for administration in government offices and that is a proven fact in the statement of expenditures by program.

Mr Reycraft: I welcome the opportunity to join the debate on the resolution by my friend the member for Nipissing. I have read his resolution carefully a number of times, because I thought, in a resolution that talked about balanced budgets, that the member surely would have wanted to include something commending the Treasurer for having balanced this year’s budget. While I have re-read it a number of times, I cannot find any commendation like that.

The balanced budget that the Treasurer announced in February is a very rare achievement. As my friend the member for Lincoln pointed out earlier, it is the first time that it has been accomplished in 20 years and it is only the third time that it has been achieved by a Treasurer of this province in the last 40 years. That achievement is significant because it proves that it is possible to make progress towards social justice at the same time as one maintains fiscal responsibility.

Spending by this government has increased in the almost five years since we took office. There is no argument about that. Those increases have gone into very important areas: health care, education, welfare services, child care, support for municipalities and for school boards, even for pay equity, an issue on which I notice my friend the member for Nipissing now has an opinion different from that of his party.

It is interesting that when a minister of the crown stands up to announce an increase in spending for one of those very important programs, the response of the opposition is usually to indicate that the increase is inadequate; that more should be done.

Mr Sterling: Not from this party.

Mr Reycraft: My friend the member for Carleton says, “Not from this party.” Just yesterday his colleague the member for Parry Sound was up imploring the Minister of Health to provide more funding for nurses for critical care programs, and he says we do not hear that sort of thing from his party.

To neglect the funding of important programs like those I have mentioned in the interests of maintaining a fiscal balance is simply not responsible. Deficits can come in many shapes and in many sizes, and deficits in health care needs, pupil places in schools and social services needs are every bit as damaging to a province and its economy as are fiscal deficits. Therefore, we have introduced new and progressive programs to try to achieve a greater degree of social equity and social justice in this province and we have funded those programs.

It has not been easy, because while we have been trying to do that, the federal government has been reducing its transfers to the province. In the February budget announced by the Minister of Finance, he again decreased our revenues by some $500 million. That is $500 million that the Treasurer had planned to use for the funding of health care, post-secondary education and social services that we are now going to have to deal with.

There are only three ways to deal with those kinds of transfer payment reductions. You can reduce services, you can increase taxes or you can go out and borrow money. The Treasurer does not want to do any of those things, but somehow we are going to have to address that reduction of $500 million.

Some people have accused the Minister of Finance on other occasions of taking a shotgun approach to deficit reduction. He cannot be accused of doing that this time, because when you look at how other provinces have been affected by his transfer payment reductions, none have been affected in the way Ontario has. He has used a very targeted approach to put that deficit on to the backs of the Ontario taxpayers; there is no question about that.

Some have criticized us by saying that we are doing the same sort of thing to achieve our balanced budget, that we have somehow reduced transfer payments to municipalities and school boards and our other transfer partners, that we have passed our deficit on to the municipal taxpayers.

That is not the case. Some information done by a very astute economist named Harry Kitchen at Trent University in Peterborough on the utilization of property taxes has provided some very interesting information. When one looks at the changes in taxes over the past 20 years, one sees that since 1968, income tax revenue as a percentage of gross domestic provincial product in Ontario has increased from 9.6 per cent to 12.6 per cent; so income taxes have gone up. Sales taxes over the same 20-year period have gone from 1.6 per cent to 2.7 per cent; sales taxes have gone up.

Property taxes in 1968 were 3.6 per cent of the gross domestic provincial product. In 1987, 20 years later, they were 3.6 per cent of the gross domestic provincial product -- virtually no change in municipal taxes in that 20-year period.

Balanced budgets are laudable objectives, and certainly it is something that the Treasurer wants to achieve this year. We will work hard to do that. At the same time, we know that we must provide adequate funding for essential programs in this province. Those are also important.

There are other comments I would like to address this morning if I had more time. I would like to talk about the matter of the provincial debt that was raised, because the provincial debt of $40 billion was accumulated in large part by a number of Conservative governments leading up to 1985. I would like to talk too about that civil service freeze and about the process. Time simply does not permit that.

I have enjoyed the opportunity to put forward these comments, and I will be opposing the resolution from the member for Nipissing.

Mr J. M. Johnson: I stand in support of this resolution presented by my colleague the member for Nipissing. I know that many of the members in the Legislature will feel that they should support it too but, because of compelling reasons, they may not want to vote for it. That is acceptable. It takes a lot of nerve to defy your government, even when you know it is wrong.

Many points have been made about the hiring of civil servants and increasing the complement by several thousand. When it is mentioned, the Premier and certain ministers take exception and use the argument that these civil servants are hired for environmental protection, to be used in the Ministry of the Environment. I am sure the Minister of the Environment does not require several thousand extra people. Therefore, it is hard to determine what purpose these people serve. I think that if the government really wanted to, it could do the job it is doing with less people.

The Minister of the Environment likely needs some help, because the example at Hagersville demonstrated that he does not really know what is going on in his ministry.

As far as taxing is concerned, they tax people with the new tire tax of $5 that brought in $35 million and they spend $1 million of it. That is pretty good. They are certainly fulfilling their mandate to protect the environment. Three cents on every dollar, that is not bad. It certainly does not show very much support for the Minister of the Environment’s efforts, at least that he pretends to be interested in.

They brought in a fishing licence, the first time in the history of the province that we have had to tax people to enjoy the sport of fishing. Now there is talk that the quota for sport fishermen will likely be decreased. That certainly does not strike my constituents as very fair.

Mr Speaker, I could go on at length with the gory details about the taxes imposed by this government, but I know you do not want me to belabour the point.

I would like to bring forward one concern that I have. In the nearly 15 years that I have served in the Legislature, I have never had as many calls as I had these past few months over taxes. Our citizens are fed up with taxes -- municipal taxes, provincial taxes and federal taxes. Every level of government is taxing our people too much.

Surely there is some place where we have to say enough is enough, and I think that is what the member for Nipissing has tried to do: to tell us all that we have reached the point where we should start to think in terms of what it is doing to the people who are earning this money to pay the taxes. They are getting tired of seeing most of their wages go to taxes. For heaven’s sakes, let’s support the resolution presented by the member for Nipissing and call a halt to this tax grab.

The Speaker: Is there any time for the government party? No time, I am sorry. We have five minutes left for the New Democratic Party. No? I believe there are two minutes plus the sponsor’s two minutes which the member for Nipissing may wish to use.

Mr Harris: Before I sum up, I want to briefly comment on some of the other speeches that were given.

First, the member for Algoma spoke on cutting the civil service and then increasing contracting out. I agree with him that if that is all the exercise is to do, that is not an accurate and true picture. That is why my resolution covers two aspects. It says that the total spending, as well, is going to have to be controlled; somebody has to stand up and put some restraint on. Given that, and now that he understands I am trying to do it from both ends to make sure the government cannot fudge the figures, I hope he will support the resolution.

Second, he said both Liberal and Conservative governments do this, and federal and provincial governments do it. He is wrong. It was the Liberal government in Ottawa that built up the civil service in its last five years; some 13,000 or 14,000 positions have since been cut back. The Conservative government in Ontario had cut back some 7,000 or 8,000 civil servants over eight or nine years. The Liberal government has added that many back in four or five years.

There is a trend. Liberals like big government, big bureaucracy; government will do everything for all people. Conservative governments would like to leave some money in the hands of the people, recognizing that perhaps they know better how they want to spend their money than government does in telling them how their money is going to be spent.

The bottom line of this, and the final argument I wish to address before I sum up, is that the Liberal members have said, “With the federal government cutting back, how can we possibly balance the budget without increasing taxes?”

On Monday, three weeks ago, the Treasurer announced, “I got $1 billion of new money I didn’t expect -- unexpected -- from the federal government in transfers.” On Tuesday he said: “I’ve been cut back $480 million. Woe is me. Where will I find the money?” He should look at the cheque for $ 1 billion he got yesterday. That is where he can find the money, and he still has half a billion left over. Now he says, “What am I going to do next year?” With no tax increases, he will get $ 1 billion of new money over and above inflation, so we can afford to make that up and still have half a billion dollars’ worth of new money.

The bottom line is this: We are becoming uncompetitive in Ontario. We are out of sync with this whole country. Admittedly, we are uncompetitive in Canada as well. We have a problem there. But that is Ontario’s problem too. It is not good enough to say, “Oh, that’s the federal government.” Who do you think pays the bulk of the federal taxes? Who do you think has to repay the deficit? By and large, it is the people of Ontario who have to pay most of it.

We are the richest and the biggest province. In a time of economic prosperity, how can the wealthiest province say to the rest of the country: “We don’t care that you are under restraint. We don’t care that the federal deficit is massive and that you’ve got to cut back your expenditures. We are going to increase our spending 10 per cent each and every year. The heck with the rest of the provinces. The heck with the federal deficit problem”? That is what is happening in this country. We are being uncompetitive as a country, and Ontario, within the country, is becoming more and more uncompetitive.

I close with this: It is not fair or right to young people to say, “You pay back what we want to spend today.” Until we recognize that, we are not doing our job as legislators.

The Speaker: That completes the allotted time for ballot item 35 and ballot item 36.

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT

The Speaker: Mr R. F. Johnston has moved second reading of Bill 112.

Motion agreed to.

Bill ordered for committee of the whole House.

TAX INCREASES

The House divided on Mr Harris’s motion of resolution 38, which was negatived on the following vote:

Ayes -- 11

Brandt, Cousens, Cunningham, Eves, Harris, Jackson, Johnson, J. M., McCague, Pollock, Sterling, Villeneuve.

Nays -- 8

Breaugh, Bryden, Carrothers, Chiarelli, Cooke, D. R., Cooke, D. S., Daigeler, Dietsch, Eakins, Elliot, Farnan, Fawcett, Ferraro, Fleet, Fulton, Furlong, Grandmaître, Grier, Henderson, Hošek, Kanter, Keyes, Lupusella, MacDonald, Mackenzie, Mahoney, Mancini, McGuigan, Neumann, Nicholas;

Nixon, J. B., Oddie Munro, Owen, Patten, Pelissero, Philip, E., Poole, Ray, M. C., Reville, Reycraft, Roberts, Ruprecht, Smith, E. J., Stoner, Sullivan, Tatham, Velshi, Wildman.

The House recessed at 1210.

AFTERNOON SITTING

The House resumed at 1330.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

TONYA GOSS

Mr Kormos: I want to tell members about Tonya Goss. She is a remarkable young woman. We in Welland are extremely proud of her, and the province can be proud of her as well.

Tonya is a 17-year-old resident of Dain City. Earlier this month she was selected and crowned Miss Teen Canada. This is the second consecutive time that a contestant from the Niagara Peninsula has become Miss Teen Canada, but it is a first for Welland and Dain City. Earlier, Tonya had won the Welland Winter Carnival Queen contest and then Miss Teen Niagara.

She is an impressive young person who has broad and varied interests. An extremely capable student at Notre Dame College School in Welland, Ms Goss is also an active athlete in water skiing, gymnastics, swimming, aerobics, a golfer and a power cheerleader for her school teams. In addition to all those activities, she is a volunteer for the Red Cross in Welland and a peer tutor at her school.

Her schoolmates were as excited as Tonya was about her win. Many of them, while expressing great pride, did not express surprise. A common comment was, “I knew she’d do it.”

Tonya’s parents, Bob Goss, a General Motors worker, and Linda Goss, can and should be very proud and very pleased with Tonya. I know this Legislature joins me in congratulating Tonya, her parents and her sisters Tara and Tiffany.

We wish her the very best and we thank her for her contributions to her community. We look forward to Tonya Goss is successful future and her continued input into her city and her province.

GREEK INDEPENDENCE DAY

Mr Jackson: I rise to acknowledge Greek Independence Day, which will be formally observed this weekend, on Sunday 25 March.

In 1453 the glory which was the Byzantine empire fell at the hands of the Ottoman Turks. In the ensuing years of national oppression, Greek identity and its spirit of independence were kept alive by the work and example of heroic leaders such as the new martyrs, who promoted education and community service ideals.

Among the most famous of these was a woman, St Philothea. The schools and charitable institutions she founded survive to this day. She was given the singular tribute of having her body enshrined in the National Cathedral of Athens.

Greek dreams of independence were quickly stimulated in the early part of the 19th century, with the war of liberation having begun in 1821 under the leadership of Alexander and Demetrius Ipsilanti. Many European nations recalled the great cultural debt they owed to Greece and sent volunteers to assist the Greek nation at its moment of greatest need. Lord Byron was one of these, and upon his death, to commemorate his sacrifice, his heart was buried in Greek soil. In 1832, Greece obtained its freedom.

At this special time of remembering the heroic deeds of days past, and on behalf of the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party, I would like to extend my warmest and best wishes to all members of the Greek community for a happy Independence Day. Yassoo.

EDUCATION OF HEARING-IMPAIRED

Mr Adams: As a follow-up to the debate on Bill 112 this morning, I would like to summarize the philosophy of education of the Ontario Association of the Deaf: to preserve and protect the interests and rights of all deaf children to learn American sign language; to give deaf children an opportunity to be exposed to and interact within a sign-language environment; to stimulate full language acquisition and a strong self-concept; to educate those associated with deaf children by providing orientation to deafness and sensitivity training programs; to encourage high-quality education counselling and human resource services to meet the intellectual, social, emotional, physical and language needs of deaf individuals; to ensure that teacher training programs of the deaf are designed to allow deaf students to become effective citizens in both the hearing and the deaf worlds the focus should be on the bicultural and bilingual approach; to upgrade and promote effective communication skills in deaf children this refers to the involvement of deaf professionals in the school systems to act as role models as well as enhancing students’ communicating skills; to actively advocate for the interests of the deaf community in all aspects of life, and to develop an effective network and strong relationship between the deaf and hearing communities.

WORKERS’ COMPENSATION

Miss Martel: In recent weeks the Workers’ Compensation Board has run a series of advertisements regarding Bill 162 in newspapers, on radio and on television. The advertisements describe how the new workers’ compensation legislation will ensure that regardless of injury, workers can be assured of a regular paycheque, rehabilitation, reinstatement and stability after their accidents.

The Ontario Coalition for Workers’ Compensation Reform today has announced it will make a formal complaint to the Advertising Standards Council and to the Workers’ Compensation Board regarding the ads. The coalition claims, and rightly so, that the ads violate the Canadian code of advertising standards for three reasons: They are inaccurate, misleading and imply that injured workers have a right to re-employment as a consequence of Bill 162. They exploit the misery felt by many injured workers by offering false hope to thousands who will, in fact, never be retrained or get back to work.

For example, the worker John states that he now has the right to reinstatement because of Bill 162. In fact, if John was injured before 2 January 1990, if he worked in an establishment with less than 20 employees or if he did not have one year’s continuous service before being injured, he will not have a right to be reinstated. John or any other worker in similar conditions is exempt from being reinstated with his or her accident under the act.

Toronto WCB clinics, in particular, have been swamped with calls from injured workers seeing the ads. They are outraged and frustrated, as they know their own experience with the board was nothing like the rosy picture which has been painted, and they also know that Bill 162 will not make it any better.

DON MCEWEN

Mr Pollock: I would ask that all members join with me in paying tribute to Don McEwen for his efforts to take

part in the Iditarod, the longest sled-dog race in the world.

Mr McEwen was the only Canadian to take

part in this classic sled-dog race which ran from Anchorage to Nome, Alaska, a distance of 1,160 miles. This route for sleds, originally a mail trail blazed by prospectors around the turn of the century became famous in 1925 when 19 mushers succeeded in a desperate mission, getting diphtheria serum to Nome to quell an epidemic.

Nearly half a century later, in 1973, the first Iditarod, an Indian name meaning “distant place,” was run. Mr McEwen finished 31st out of 70 entries. It is a real achievement even to complete. Sometimes the temperature in the interior of Alaska dips to 60 degrees below zero Fahrenheit, and with the wind-chill factor it is even colder than that. This was a real test of stamina and perseverance.

I am honoured that Don McEwen is a constituent of the riding of Hastings-Peterborough. He has been active in promoting sled-dog racing and very actively involved in the Marmora sled-dog competition.

GREEK INDEPENDENCE DAY

Mr Faubert: I rise today to bring to the attention of the House a very special day for our Greek community. On 25 March, Greek peoples around the world celebrate the 169th anniversary of independence from the Ottoman empire.

It was on 25 March 1821 that the distinctive blue and white of the Greek merchant marine flag was raised in the Peloponnisos as a symbol of Greek resistance. What followed was almost a decade of continuous struggle to overthrow the mantle of more than 400 years of Ottoman oppression. The courage and perseverance of the Greek forces eventually forced the Ottoman rulers to concede defeat and recognize Greece and its people as independent and free.

As the birthplace of democratic ideals, it is heartening to see other countries, both in eastern Europe and elsewhere, following the true Greek spirit of freedom and democracy.

This weekend, thousands of Metropolitan Toronto’s 90,000-strong Greek community, along with Greek communities across Ontario, Canada and the world, will rekindle that spirit with their annual Independence Day festivities, in Metro the highlight being the traditional parade along Danforth Avenue. In the past, this event has featured an array of bands, floats and cultural societies and attracted many dignitaries who march with Bishop Sotirios to show their support of the Greek community.

I have myself for years joined this display of Greek pride and I can attest to the true warmth, hospitality and friendship generated by this event. In fact, it reminds me of a statement by the Greek writer Vasily Theodorakis, who wrote, “You live, you die, and in between if you are lucky, you experience Greece.”

For those members who would like to experience a little bit of Greece, I urge them to turn out this weekend either at the parade or at the CN Tower’s Salute to Greece.

CHRONIC CARE

Mr D. S. Cooke: In the 1985 election, the member for Windsor-Sandwich announced that our new chronic care hospital would start construction by the end of that calendar year. In 1986, the then Minister of Health came down to Windsor and announced that the hospital had received approval and they could go ahead; $11 million was raised at the local level as its share of the community hospital. In 1987, the member for Windsor-Walkerville and the member for Windsor-Sandwich ran for election on the basis that they had achieved the new chronic care hospital for the Windsor community.

In 1988, after the election, the hospital was put on hold. In 1989, the Liberals were concerned that without this hospital they were in deep political trouble in Windsor. In 1990, the Liberals are concerned about no hospital, the prospect of an election and a community protest that is going to occur when they have their convention in Windsor on the 30 March weekend.

Today I am announcing, on behalf of the government I am sure, that the government will in the next week be formally announcing phase I of the new chronic care hospital in Windsor. But what is phase I of the new chronic care hospital in Windsor? It is going to be a walkway from the existing general hospital to nowhere because the hospital has not been approved.

The people of our community will not be conned by this doubletalk from the Liberal Party.

GO TRANSIT

Mr Cousens: Imagine this scenario: You wake up at 6:30 in the morning, get dressed, have some breakfast and arrive at the GO station bracing yourself for the ride downtown. Things are going relatively smoothly; the trains are on time today. You find a seat, pull out your newspaper and settle in with the morning news. Suddenly, the person next to you pulls out his battery-operated razor and proceeds to shave. You watch with interest because you are too astonished to say anything. Finished, the man nonchalantly cleans his razor with a little brush and puts his utensils away. You are disturbed by this man’s lack of manners but think that is an isolated incident.

Then you look across the aisle as a young woman is intently applying makeup to her half-asleep face. Another woman sits beside her chatting away as she polishes her toe-nails. Incredible? Not in the least. People are clipping their fingernails, flossing their teeth and cleaning their ears as they merrily make their way to work on public transit. As one of my constituents has pointed out, it is like going to work in someone’s washroom.

When my constituent complained to a customer service representative with GO Transit, she was told that there was nothing she could do and that there are no guidelines prohibiting this kind of activity. Surely the Minister of Transportation could develop a public education program for passengers which reminds them of basic common courtesy.

ONTARIO FARM WOMEN’S NETWORK

Ms Oddie Munro: I have read with interest the latest edition of the Ontario Farm Women’s --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. A little respect, please.

Ms Oddie Munro: I have read with interest the latest edition of the Ontario Farm Women’s Network newsletter. As a member from a predominantly industrial-commercial city, you might wonder why I would be interested in issues concerning Ontario’s farm women. Simply put, it is because Hamilton historically, currently and, I predict, well into the future, has been and will be interested in the rights, needs and contribution of women, either expressed through women’s organizations, by individual women or by men and children who care about women.

Formed one year ago, the OFWN is new but not unknown. Ontario’s Minister of Agriculture and Food, David Ramsay, is well aware of its objectives, as, I dare say, are many of the members. In fact, the association is holding an annual meeting this weekend with the Honourable Mavis Wilson as one of the guest speakers.

So what are the objectives of this association? They are to support and strengthen the family farm and the farm family, to secure social, legal and economic equality, to foster agricultural awareness and to facilitate educational development. The special theme of the January-February newsletter is equality for women. The newsletter speaks to the challenges experienced by farm women due to the lack of accessible training, social services and child care, minimal participation.

The OFWN has a lot of solutions to their problems: contacting politicians and governments, networking and the development of a source base. I am confident that we will be hearing more from this association, and I commend the reading of the newsletter to the House.

The Speaker: That completes the allotted time for members’ statements.

Hon Mr Offer: Mr Speaker, I would ask for unanimous consent for statements on the 50th anniversary of Pakistan’s independence.

The Speaker: There has been a request for unanimous agreement. Is there that agreement?

Agreed to.

PAKISTANI NATIONAL DAY

Mrs Marland: I consider this a real privilege, to have the opportunity to stand and speak on behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party to recognize Pakistani National Day, 23 March, which will be celebrated tomorrow.

Tomorrow, 23 March, is a day of celebration for all people of Pakistani origin. It was on this day in 1956 that Pakistan became a republic. Previously, the nation had been a constitutional monarchy. March 23 is also the anniversary of a resolution by the All-India Muslim League which embodied the demand for a Muslim homeland on the Indian subcontinent. That was in 1940 -- 50 years ago.

This resolution eventually led to the creation of Pakistan in August 1947 by the partition of Great Britain’s India empire into two nations, India and Pakistan. The division was a response to the fears of Muslims that they would be persecuted under Hindu rule. Thus, Pakistan became an Islamic state, while India continued as a homeland for the Hindu people.

On behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party of Ontario, I would like to welcome the consul general of Pakistan, Tariq Altaf, who is visiting in the Legislature today.

I had the privilege a few moments ago of meeting the consul general. Obviously this fine gentleman who brings with him a special warmth and grace is very well appointed to the responsibility that he holds, and we offer our best wishes to the large Muslim community in this province of Ontario, which is now numbering more than 30,000 people, as it celebrates Pakistani National Day tomorrow.

Mr Velshi: I too wish to add my congratulations to all those of Pakistani background in Canada on this day of celebration and I wish to recognize once again in the members’ gallery my very good friend Tariq Altaf, consul general of Pakistan in Toronto.

Today we recognize what tomorrow will be, the 50th anniversary of the Pakistan Resolution, being the charter which led to the creation of the Muslim nation on the south Asian subcontinent. This celebration is particularly significant for me, as I am not only the only Muslim elected to office in Ontario, but my family is originally from that subcontinent. Indeed, had my forefathers not left the Indian subcontinent at the turn of the century to reside in South Africa, I might very well be addressing this House today not as a South African Canadian but as a Pakistani Canadian.

In either case, I am proud to note the outstanding contribution of the Prime Minister of this land, Madam Benazir Bhutto. Her dynamism and the democratic drive she represents is an example to all who cherish freedom. Of course, her recent election, along with the Prime Minister, Mr Mulroney, as co-chair of the United Nations world leaders summit on children’s issues such as slavery and mass starvation, to be held this 29 and 30 September, is indicative of our two nations’ great interest in aid to those who need it most.

On this day of recognition and celebration I want to mention one other important point about this great, democratic Commonwealth partner and that is the outstanding generosity displayed by the people and the government of Pakistan to three million Afghani refugees, being the largest single group of refugees in the world today. So many have been helped with the spirit of giving shown by the people of northern Pakistan, and I applaud this spirit.

I will close by once again saluting my friend Mr Altaf and all the people of Pakistan on this special occasion. I know all members will want to join me in wishing that this great nation prospers and develops even more over the next 50 years.

Mr B. Rae: First of all, I want to join with other members in welcoming the consul general, Mr Altaf, to this assembly and to say on behalf of our party that if members would reflect for a moment, I am sure they would agree with me that it was the independence movements in India and Pakistan in the middle of this century which can fairly be said to have really transformed the world.

Indeed, they were the precursors of the modern world in the historic movement of decolonization and the establishment of sovereign states in much of the world, which prior to that time had been painted in the red or the blue or the green of various 19th century and 18th century empires. This was a historic change and one which took enormous courage and enormous foresight and dedication on the part of the leadership of the communities in Pakistan, as we now call it, and in India, transforming that subcontinent and also the world.

It is worth recalling that Mr Altaf’s predecessors, if I may say that, who were active in the nationalist movements in those countries faced imprisonment from the British Raj. They faced political persecution. They were prevented from assembling in a peaceful manner. They were in many cases treated badly and roughly by the authorities. Their lives were threatened and, indeed, many lives were lost in the battle for independence.

It took great courage, and we pay tribute to that courage as we do to the courage of the people of Pakistan in recent years, when they have made such an enormous contribution to the world; not only to their own continent, but indeed to the rest of the world.

It is perhaps an appropriate moment as well, on the 50th anniversary of the declaration of the Muslim League and the Pakistan Resolution in 1940, for us to pay tribute to the new Prime Minister, to the enormous contribution which she is making in peacemaking, the contribution which she is making to her own country. We pay tribute to her as democracy once again has been re-established in Pakistan.

Finally, of course, we celebrate the fact that many Pakistanis have come to Canada and have made it their home. Perhaps this is an appropriate occasion for us to remember that it was just yesterday that I, together with the Premier and the leader of the Conservative Party, indeed all the members of the House were presented with a pin from B’Nai Brith asking us to celebrate the fact that in our diversity in Canada, there is unity.

Perhaps it might seem odd that I should mention the B’Nai Brith in the same breath or paragraph as I am talking about the independence of Pakistan, but I do not think it is, because that shows the enormous diversity that there is in Canada and also the unity that we have in making sure that everyone in Canada is treated fairly, is made to feel at home here, and that we share a sense of solidarity, brotherhood and sisterhood, with all the people of the world who have made Canada their home.

STATEMENT BY THE MINISTRY

DRUG ABUSE

Hon Mr Black: I would like to inform members that earlier today I announced details of a treatment initiative which will broaden the base of existing drug abuse treatment programs and will permit thorough and rigorous evaluation of the funded programs.

Today we are moving forward on several new initiatives that will allow us to provide more treatment to young people at risk as well as gather much-needed information about the effectiveness of current treatment models. Today I have allocated $1.6 million to enhance 11 innovative treatment programs in Ontario and a further $400,000 for extensive program evaluation. This funding is in addition to over $50 million the province currently spends each year on treatment programs.

As members of this House will recall, in November of last year the government introduced an innovative, community-based strategy to reduce the illegal use of drugs in Ontario. The strategy provides the blueprint we must follow if we are to keep our communities healthy and safe.

The drug strategy is based on the premise that in order to reduce the incidence and impact of illegal drug use, we must concentrate our efforts on reducing the demand for drugs and we must utilize all of the tools available to us. This includes prevention and education, enforcement and treatment activities as outlined in the Report of the Task Force on Illegal Drug Use in Ontario.

The additional funding announced today will be used to expand programs with particular emphasis on improved access for youth up to 25 years of age and to evaluate the programs to increase our knowledge of effective treatment methods. Evaluation of programming is a key component of this initiative to help us find the most effective ways of allocating our treatment resources.

In addition to providing funding for these 11 programs, we are also looking ahead. We need to know which treatment programs offer the most promise. While there is agreement about the need for more treatment programs, there is little consensus about what and where these should be. We want to help provide some of the answers to these questions.

That is why I am pleased to announce the appointment of an advisory committee of individuals from across the province with expertise in drug treatment. The Treatment Advisory Committee will review and assess promising drug treatment models from across the province, recommend priorities in drug treatment service and recommend strategies for more effective and efficient use of existing resources. The committee will also be asked to identify future research needs.

I am pleased to introduce the chairman of the committee, Garth Martin, who is with us today. Mr Martin is head of the sociobehavioural treatment services for the Addiction Research Foundation. In addition, two other members of his committee have taken the time to attend, and I would like to ask Linda Bell, the president of Bellwood Health Services, and Dr Don Pierson to rise as well. All other members of the committee are equally well qualified and represent a cross-section of expertise. The advisory committee is expected to report this fall.

We are confident these initiatives will greatly enhance current programs in our efforts to reduce the illegal use of drugs in Ontario and will help ensure effective and innovative treatment programs in the future.

RESPONSES

DRUG ABUSE

Mr Reville: When we had the last series of announcements by the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, who is the minister responsible for the provincial anti-drug strategy, I was sharply critical of his announcement because it did not touch on the matter of treatment. I suppose now I have to be congratulatory because he has touched on the matter of treatment, but members know me better than that.

Basically what has happened today is that the minister has announced a little study, a little committee and a 3.2 per cent increase in the amount of money spent on drug and alcohol treatment programs in this province. We know and the minister knows that 3.2 per cent is not going to do the job.

While clearly the advisory committee is expert in its field, our experience, particularly with this government, is that it is very quick to set up advisory committees and not very quick to listen to what advisory committees have to say. In the drug field, I can only think back to, not very long ago, the Minister of Health’s absolutely tone-deaf ear to the recommendations of the Drug Quality and Therapeutics Committee, which of course is responsible for advising the government on the legal drug trade, not the illegal drug trade.

The government is right when it says that we have to deal with “prevention and education, enforcement and treatment.” Many of the programs in the prevention and education side are now being put together. Some of them are goofy in the extreme.

The government knows or should know that the best prevention program ever devised anywhere in the world is the real prospect of a future for people who might contemplate using drugs or who are currently using drugs. Examples are brought forward in this House, day after day, about layoffs and shutdowns that the government says it cannot do anything about, about food banks that the government says it cannot do anything about but that it might get around to doing something about in the future, about homelessness and underhousing and poor housing, which the government has abandoned. It makes you wonder why the government has a minister responsible for drugs at all.

The problem clearly is that if tomorrow is going to be just like yesterday, you might as well get blasted today. That is the problem we are facing all over the province. Not many feet away from this place, I could take the minister to stairwells where young women are selling their bodies on one step so that they can buy some drugs two steps up. The minister knows that this little mess of pottage is doing nothing about it.

MrFarnan: I would just like to add a side remark to the comments of my colleague. The minister is not just the minister for drugs; he is also, in my view, the minister for gambling. We are talking about addictions. This is something I have spoken in the House about and I do not want the minister to forget this.

As the government introduces one lottery after another, families are being destroyed by gambling addictions. There is not one gambling rehabilitation clinic in the province of Ontario, and this is criminal. There is not one gambling rehabilitation clinic in all of Canada.

I would ask the minister, as the minister responsible for lotteries in Ontario, to seriously look at this. He is using this fund-raising technique not just for the traditional groups, sports and culture; the government is adding hospitals, and indeed I believe it has plans to look beyond that, at the environment.

As the government promotes lotteries aggressively, as it markets lotteries aggressively, it should remember that there is a portion of society whose lives are being destroyed. The government is part of the problem in this respect and not part of the solution. In other jurisdictions, a percentage of lottery profits is used for gambling rehabilitation. I encourage the minister to do the same in Ontario.

Mr Sterling: In general, we welcome the announcement of the minister regarding these programs. We also think that probably it is a better expenditure of funds to support existing programs and existing treatment facilities than it is to try to go out and create brand-new ones that do not have the experience of the many it is supporting today. We are supportive of that kind of a measure.

I would add some caution in terms of the commitment: It seems relatively small with regard to a very large problem. We only take this commitment as being a step in a series of many, many steps that I hope the minister will take in the future.

With regard to the advisory committee, I would only say, as the chairman of the standing committee on government agencies of this Legislature, that last month we looked at a particular advisory committee of another minister of the crown. In that case, there were 39 various advisory committees called provincial advisory committees. Of those 39 committees, in the last year, I believe, there were two meetings. There were no minutes kept. There were no advisory documents to the minister, etc.

I would say to the members who are part of this advisory committee: Make certain that they meet often, make certain that their reports get to the minister and make certain that their reports get to the public in general in order for them to be providing a useful purpose to keep this process in motion. Other than that, in general we support these initiatives.

ORAL QUESTIONS

TIRE DUMPS

Mrs Grier: My question is for the Minister of the Environment. We all know that after the crisis in Hagersville the ministry scrambled and that last week the minister released a list of 49 waste tire sites across the province of Ontario. Since then, we have been trying to get some more information from his ministry about the specific details of those various tire sites, and that has been difficult.

However, it is obvious that 11 of those 49 sites are landfills. So if we are charitable and assume that those 11 sites have certificates of approval, can the minister tell us: Of the other 38 waste tire sites across the province, how many have been issued with certificates of approval by his ministry?

Hon Mr Bradley: We are in the process at the present time, between the Solicitor General’s department and the Ministry of the Environment – as the member knows, these sites have been visited -- of issuing certificates of approval to all of them. The inspections have taken place on those sites which the member has made reference to, that is, both by the Ministry of the Solicitor General and by the Ministry of the Environment. People have gone to each one of them that has been in process for some period of time, and it is the levels she was given the information on, the over 5,000.

Mrs Grier: That is really very strange. One of the sites, for example, has 800,000 tires, another has 500,000, many of them have 200,000, 75,000. They did not all grow just since the fire at Hagersville. Presumably some of those dumps were there and some of those tires were dumped there prior to the fire at Hagersville.

Is the minister telling this House that none of them in the list he released had been inspected prior to 13 March and 14 March? Is he telling this House that not a single one of those 38 sites is operating legally, that there are, in this province, 38 illegal waste disposal sites he has only just discovered? Is that what he is saying?

Hon Mr Bradley: From time to time, officials of the Ministry of the Solicitor General and officials of the Ministry of the Environment have visited a number of these sites over a period of time and have evaluated them to determine whether they are in compliance or acceptable. As the member would know, these visitations are very useful in that they can advise the people as to --

Mr Reville: Visitations.

Hon Mr Bradley: I will not mention Robin Sears.

Hon Mr Scott: You won’t mention Robin Sears. Tell us about Robin. Have you heard from him?

The Speaker: The response to the question?

Hon Mr Bradley: I think Robin would agree with me.

Anyway, we have had our officials visit each of these sites from time to time to evaluate them and to make recommendations to people on how they should best store them. We are talking about the significant sites that the member is mentioning, for instance, and we will make sure that all of them are in compliance. Of course, with the legislation that we will be bringing in, it will clarify our right to move in at any particular time.

Mrs Grier: It is obvious from that answer (

a) that none of these sites have certificates of approval, (

b) that they are all illegal, (

c) that no charges have been laid against any of these sites. I find that absolutely appalling. I would like to ask the minister if, given the kind of record his ministry has shown -- taking five years to try to do something about Hagersville and then deciding it could not do anything, and two years involved with the Musitano dump outside Mount Hope and nothing has happened -- that is the kind of record we may expect on 38 other sites.

Let me be very specific. Today, I plan to introduce into this House amendments to the legislation to try to help the minister do his job, because the legislation I am going to introduce --

The Chair: The question would be?

Mrs Grier: -- would give the general public the right to initiate and participate in hearings before the Environmental Appeal Board. Gill the minister support that kind of legislation? If he is not going to do the job, will he give the citizens some environmental rights in this province?

Hon Mr Bradley: As the member would most certainly be aware, no doubt, people have the right to appear before the appeal board at the present time. In fact in that particular circumstance she mentions with Hagersville, they did appear before the appeal board. I think the member would how that with the inspections that have taken place,