Volume XLI Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTY-FIRSTGENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Prel'imi nary Transcript! Number 36 17 May 1990

The House met at 2:00 p.m. Min. Speaker (Lush): Order, please! The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Mr. Speaker, before wern'O"'V"e to-routine business of the day , I wo u 1 d 1 i I< e to beg the indulgence of the House just for a minute or so to bring to the attention of the House the passing of a very famous, a very great former Ne~~oundlander, in the person of Mrs. Florence O'Neill-Hutchinson. ~ . _ M1ns. Hutchinson t~o.Jas botnn at Witless Bay · in Newfoundland and she was the first Canadian woman to earn a doctorate degree. She made her reputation, Mr.

Speaker, as a pioneer of adult education, promoting in particular literacy for the poor~ not only in Newfoundland and Labrador but eventually in other parts of Canada·. Mrs. Hutchinson began her teaching career in a one room school in Placentia Bay and then moved to teaching literacy reading and writing to minors in the St. John's, Bell Island area. She gave up teaching because she was suffering from exhaustion and malnutrition brought on by her habit of giving away her lunch to students who had none, and I think, Min. Speaker, that's a gr'eat tribute to this pioneer educator from Newfoundland and Labrador. Mrs.

O'Neill-Hutchinson earned a Bachelor's degree from Dalhousie University in Halifax and then she returned to her native Province teaching literacy in ·the outports using her own innovative techniques. She late1n earn.::~d her Doctorate Degree from Columbia · University in Ne~J York where she Ll May 17, 1990 Vol XLI was a Carnegie and a Rockefeller scholar. Even though she tAJas offered a very lucrative job in the United States, she returned to Newfoundland where she became Head of the Department of Education's Adult Education Program.

In 1963 she left Newfoundland to head up the Adult Education Program of lhe Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development in Ottawa where she retired in 1970. In 1974- sh~::~ was awal"dE!d thE! Or·dE!I" of Canada for her work amongst iLliterate people in a11 parts of Canada. Mr. Speaker, I think it would be appropriate for this House to note the passing of this great NewfoundlaAder, this great Canadian and send appropriate condolences to Mrs. O'Neill-Hutchinson's family. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Mernb•:-r fol" Bellevue . Mr. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, ME!ITibE!I"S on this side, would indeed want to be identified with the comments of the Leader oF the Opposition. Dl". Florence O'Neill-Hutchinson, I guess, was one of the greatest adult educators who ever lived. Personally being involvE•d in adult education in this Province for some twenty years, I read with great interest the works of Dr. Flor~::~nce O'Neill--Hutchinson. As a matter of fact, only recently I made representations to the Minister of Education and the Government that her memoirs should be published.

I think it is great in the terms of the history of Adult Edcation in this Province, and I hope that we can salvage some of her work. Also I remember when I was a public servant within Government, when myself an~ Bill Shallow, tAJho was the Directo1n oF Adult Education, suggested that when the Division of Adult Education took over the Parae!.:~ No. 36 (Afternoon) Rl

Street premises we would at time make the recommendation that campus tAJould be named honour of Dr. Florence 0 1 Neill. that that in I have already talked to the Minister of Education and suggested that in the reorganization of the post-secondary system there should be some place in this Province that could be named in honour of this great person. She was the first women in Canada fo receive a PhD in Adult Education. And for those people who are concerned about women 1 s ~ rights, she led the tAJay in terms of rural Newfoundland.

People like her have made a fantastic contribution to the whole field of Adult Education and to the whole field of adult learning. I was trying to confirm she had passed away because only recently she attended a National Adult Education Conference celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the CAAE. I am sure we all would like to be identified and have the House send letters of condolences to the family. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Statements by Ministers Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Dr. Kitchen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As Minister responsible for the Newfoundland Liquor Licensing Board I am pleased to inform this hon. House of several changes to the Liquor (Licensing) Regulations: 1. The Hours of Operation for L2 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI Liquor Establishments on Sunda~ Evenings (Monday Mornings) ol statutotny long tAJeeki::~nds wiJ increase from the current 12:0C midnight closing to 2:00 a.m closing, on a trial basis for one- year period, effectivf Sunday, May 20, 1990. This changE in hours will assist smal: businesses involved in thi! industry. There will be nc increase in licensing fees for these extra hours. 2. Mr.

Speaker, thl':~ closing hout· for the serving of alcoho] it· restaurants will be reduced fror the current 3:00 a.m. closing tc 2:00 a.m. This change will keEq: the closing hour of all liquor establishments consistent at 2: OC a.m. We believe that this changE wi 11 no t c au s e any undue hard s hi F to these small businesses bE:•causE the sale of food is not: affE!CtE!C by this change. · 3 . Mr. Speaker, the Jiquor licence renewal fee for small tour boats will be amended to bE consistent with the fee paid b~ other types of establishment.

T"hE fee will decrease from the current amount payable of one thousanc dollars per year to lhe basic licence fee of two hundrec dollars; plus onE! hundred anc fifty dollars for five thousanc dollars of purchases or fractior thereof. Mr. Speaketn, believes that positive for segment of this these this our GOVE~rl1lrtl':'nt changes arE important business However, the Liquor Licensin~ community. Newfoundland Board lAiill very closely. mon:i.tor the chang~~s Some Hon. Members : Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The han. t i1E No. 36 ( Afh11nnoon) R2

Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms: Thank you, Min . Speaker. I will just briefly respond to the Minister•s statement. I am aware that the Hospitality Newfoundland people are quite supportive of these changes. And with respect to the first item, the hours of operation being extended on Sundays on long weekends is, I guess, only on a trial basis. It is somE!What similar, I suppose, to a change that was implemented a couple of years ago during the famous double daylight savings time period.

I understand it worked out positively for the business community, the tourism business community in particular, so we will have to wait and see what the reaction is and if it lAJorks out. Hopefully it will be successful and not too many people will be upset by the change. With respect to the second change of reducing the hours in a restaurant from 3:00 a.m. to 2:00 a.m., I am not so sure if that will be a positive moue. I suspect there are a lot of restaurants that perhaps do a fair business after the clubs close.

People leave the clubs at 2:00 a.m. and would probably go out for a bite to eat and maybe like to have whatever their favorite refreshment might be. So I am not so sure if it will be positive. We IJJill have to wait and see on that one as well. Finally, with respect to the renewal fee for small tour boat ope1nators, I think that is a very positive move and I am very pleased to see the Minister do it.

It will be a break for them and I suspect there are others in the tourism industry who would like to see further breaks L3 May 1'7, 1990 Vol XLI announced by the Minister, particularly with respect to payroll taxes and things of that nature, which I expect he IJJi11 be announcing in due course. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: Before calling Oral Questions the Chair would like to make a couple of observations, with the indulgence of han.

Members, about the proceedings in the House yesterday with respect to Question Per·iod, and I do l:.his for the future guidance and direction of han. Members, and the Chair as well. I want to remind hon.

Members, again, with respect to the Question Period, that the Speaker•s ruling rel~ted to Oral Questions arE! not. dE!batab1e o1n subject to appeal, and the rl':1asons for this is quite obvious bE!Cause many of the calls made by the Chair are judgement calls, and if we were permitted to debate and appeal these judgement calls we wo u 1 d be in a state of chaos j u s t about continuously, so that is the obvious reason for that ruling.

The Chair would point our hoiJJt:wer that the Chair has. at al1 times, entertained points of order, particularly at the end of Question Period - particularly and specifically - particularly if there was something glaringly wrong developing and that a Member might respectfully and diplomatically bring to the attention of the Chair, and the Chair would then bE! happy to decide whether it is debating l:he Speaker 1 s ruling, where the Chair would obviously make a ruling, but as long as there was no debating of the rulings or reflections on the Chair, the Chair would No. 36 (Afternoon) R3

. , entertain such points of order by any Member. H a v i n g s aid that I want to a 11 u d e specifically to the situation that did cause a bit of heated debate yesterday near the end of Question Period, when the Member for Fogo was carrying on with the continuous questioning of the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations with questions relating to unemployment in the Province and generating employment. Before I address the matter specifically I would like to, for the benefit of hon. Members, just read a couple of quotations from Beauchesne for the future guidance of all hon. Members. Beauchesne, Page 123,

Section 416, Replies to Oral Questions. ( 1) A Minister may decline to answer a question without stating the reason for refusing, and insistence on an answer is out of order, with no debate being allowed. A refusal to answer cannot be raised as a question of privilege, nor is it regular to comment on such a refusal. A Member ·may put a question but has no right to insist upon an answer. 11 But more apropos to the specific situation, first of all, the Chair would like just to read the question that was posed by the han. Member fo1n Fogo. He said, •my question is to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

Since this is National Tourism Week and the Province is attempting to promote tourism as an economic catalyst, and the present employment generation program to a large extent does not address the problem of the tourist industry in Newfoundland, will the Minister immediately implement a program to create employment in the seasonal tourist industries in this .Province? • L4 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI The Minister then proceeded tc stand, that is the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, as did the Minister of Development. The Minister of Employment and Labour Relations then yielded to the Minister of Development.

The Chair, feeling that the gist of the question was related to tourism, acknowledged the Minister of Development. Then, of course, han. Members proceeded to question whether that was the proper thing. The Member, from his experience, quoted Beauchesne. page 123. paragraph 418. and this says: The Speaker has stated, 11 Hon. Mernbe1ns may not realize it bu·t questions are actually put to th e Government.

The Government decides who will answer . 11 What one ·must take into consideratioh along with that though as well, is Beauchesne, page 121, paragraph 409, (6) 11 A question must be within the administrative competence of the Government .... 11 Though thE! Chai1n did not address that spE!cifically, I alluded to the fact that I recognized the han. Minister For Development was responsible for tourism. That is why the Chair 1necognized him, rr:~alizing. 01~ thinking, that the gist of the question was in that particular area of competence and allowed the Minister of Development to proceed.

As I have said before, it u.1as a judgement call. Even though the Government has the right to indicate who will next speak, one assumes they will select the Minister who is within the area of competency, quite obviously. Sometimes that is difficult For the Chair to decide because thE!Ine might be an inner Cabinet chairman. or someone who is morE:' No. 36 (Afternoon) 1~4

" familiar with the item raised, than the han. the Minister. So the Chair has to consider both these considerations. Having done that I think han. Members can understand. with the question. why it was that the Chair proceeded to recognize the han. the Minister of Development. Now if a similar question had been as ked. or for example if an han. Member asked the Minister of Fisheries about amalgamation with municipalities, then I think the Chair would obviously have to make a different de cis ion with res pee t to the competence. So I want han.

Members to understand that the Chair has to weigh these two criteria, the criteria of the Government deciding who will speak on their behalf and the other stating that it must be within the area of competence. Oral Questions Mr. Speaker: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Thank you ve1ny much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, again yesterday, showed, in ou1n view, unbelievabl€~ arrogance and even contempt for the unemployed people of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that 150 or so people will not have job opportunities in Roddick ton this s umrner becausE! the fish plant in the community has burned down, 1Aiill the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations tell this House whether or not her Employment Generation Progra~ her employment Generation Program will be used to generate employment opportunities for those people in Roddickton this summer LS May 17. 1990 Vol XLI who are facing unemployment because that employer in the community will no longer be in existence, Mr. Speaker? Mr.

Speaker: The Minister of Employment Relations. hon . thE! and Labour Ms Cowan: Thank you, M1n. Speaker. The Employment Generation Program was aimed to help unemployed people wherever they might be in the Province. At the moment, as the hon. the U~ader of the Opposi tioo knows. the only monies in that program at this time will come from slippage. If there are appropriate app1ications from the Roddickton are!a, let me assure the Leader of the Opposition that they will be considered, and if they meet: . the criteria, then, indeed, those individuals will be employed. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. thE:1 LeadE:'l" of the Opposition, on a supplementary. Mr. Rideout: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Well, now, perhaps the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations would te 11 thC:~ Hou s ~:! where the funding is going to come from, since all thE! funding in thE! program has already been committed. Would the Minister tell the Hous~ how she is going to fund those applications? Mr.

Speaker : Th''' Minister of Ernploym t:1nt Relations. hon . the and Labour Ms Cowan: If the han. the U:1ad~::~1n of the Opposition was not so busy thinking about his next question he would have heard me say that the only monies to come at lhis point in time are from slippaqe, which will surface from time to time as the year rolls along. No. 36 (Afternoon) R5

Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . Mr. Rideout : Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker, let me direct the attention of the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations to another area of the Province, Daniel's Harbour, where 150 or so permanent jobs will be lost this year because of the closedown of the Daniel's Harbour mine. Will the Employment Generation Program have a special component in it to address the unemployment problems the community of Daniel's Harbour will face this year, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Simms: A good question. Ms Cowan: The han. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

Ms Cowan: I would once again, Mr. Speaker, as sure the Leader of the Opposition that unemployment in this Province is a major concern of this Government. My answer to his question is the same as the early question. An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Ms Cowan: If there are a p p 1 i C at ionS IJJ hi C h art'::~ a p p r 0 p ria t e and monies are available, they will be given due consideration.

At the same time, I IJ.Jould like to also draw the ~1on. the Leader of the Opposition 1 s attention to the fact that there are other employment programs which are going to deal with some of the problems of individuals in Daniel's Harbour when the mine closes, for example, · the POWA Program. Mr. Speaker : The han. the Leadel~ of the Opposition. L6 May 17, 1990 Uol XLI Mr. Rideout : Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, in vir,)IAJ of the fact that Newfoundland~~rs and Labradorians are now leaving this Province in droves, 7, 606 of th~'?.IT in the last eight mon·ths of 1989, will the Minister seek to remove the cap from this Employment Generation Program, or is her answer to the people in Danie 1 1 s Harbour and Roddickton and other communi ties going to bE! the::' same as it was in Fogo, go on the dole? Is that the Minister • s solution? Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The han. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: I have found, Ml".

Speaker, as I travel around the Province, that the mEHnbe,~s of thE! population of Newfoundland and Labradot are very much aware of what we have to face as a Government, that there is not enough money to go around, that IJ.Je have to have priori ties, and that: we, this year, established CE!rtain priorities and IAJe are::~ sticking to those. Some of those priori ties are not showing up in the Employment Generation Program, and the Opposition wishes to make a big to~do about that, as if we did not have any employment programs in place. That, of course, is totally erroneous.

We have several in my Department, and rnany in other Departments. If I may, Mr. Speaker, when I talked yesterday about cleaning up the abysmal mess left to us in the last seventeen years, you knoiJJ, I am quite honoured actually, I arn really flattered, that the Opposition has such a high ,~E:~SpE!Ct for rne that they expect rne in one No. 36 (Afternoon) R6

year and a couple of months to clear up problems they could not deal with in their seventeen years. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! An Han. Member: Way to go, Patt! Ms Cowan: I thank them very much for that vote of confidence. I also thank the Opposition House Leader who, on another day, said that I was very honest and straightfotnward. I took that as a very high compliment from that group of people. Let me just point out something, and I am going to table this afterwards. .In fact, I am very happy to table it. Let us have a look at youth unemployment in the last few years in this Province.

I wonder how the Opposition coped u.Ji t h that? I do not rea 11 y k now how they coped with · it. By the look of the statistics, they cjid not cope at all. And they love statistics, by the way. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! I would ask the han. the Minister to take her place. I will ask the han. the Minister please to get to the answer quite quickly. It is a rather long and general question I realize, in terms of unemployment, but the Minister should try to address the question precisely and not cite all the programs Government have. I give the Minister a half minute to please clue up. Ms Cowan: Mr.

Speaker, I will try to get to the point, but I think it is imperative for me to deal with a couple of statistics - I wi 11 try to keep it s h or t - j us t so we have the record straight. And when I make comments like, you L7 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI know, there are a lot of things l:o clear up, the general public will understand. I do not knOlAJ if the Opposition will understand or not, but perhaps if they have a J.isten to this: In 1979, 25 per cent youth unemployment in the Province; 1980, 21.6 per cent; 1981, 24.3; 1982, 29 per cent; and in 1985 it was 33.2 per cent.

They know as well as I do, and everybody in this House knows, that these are problems which have been in Newfoundland for many, many decades; it is going to take s orne timc::1 to . s traig hte n them out. I have heard the han. the Pre:1mier say on many occasions that he hopes that in five years time we will start to see some relief from this terrible economy we have fallen into, and that is our goal. We are putting in place plans which we hopc::1 will sta1nt t.o reach fruition in about five years, and will continue to esc~late as time passes. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! An Han. Member: Way to go, Patt!

An Han. Member: And 30,000 people will be home six months after . Mr. Rideout: A supplementary, Mr . SpE!aker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The han. the Leader of the Opposition . Mr. Rideout: Mr . Speaker, u.Ji.ll the Minister continue with her honesty, forget her ego, and admit that the real difference in youth unemployment t.i.Jas made as a result of the Youth Strategy Program that was signed two years ago, which she or this Government had nothing to do with? No. 36 (Afternoon) R'l

Mr. Simms: Right on! Right on! Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker : The han. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker, since I was rather intrigued to hear the Minister tell the House some statistics of the difference in unemployment rates, I wonder if she could confirm the following : That the unemployment rate in Newfoundland and Labrador from September 1988, after this Gouernment took office, which was 14.8 per cent, to September of 1989, . was up to 15.7; the following month, October, from 14 up to 15.2; Nouember 14.1 up to 15.8; Mr.

Speaker, 12 per cent in December up to . 16 per cent in December of . 1989, after this Gouernment took office, 16 per cent in February up to 17 per cent; and last month, April, from 17.2 per cent up to 18.6 per cent. Can she confirm those statistics as well, and is she as proud of those unemployment statistics as she is of the other ones she just touted? Some Han . Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The han . the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: I haue neuer been proud, Mr. Speaker, of the unemployment statistics in Newfoundland.

In fact, in 1987, my pride reached an all-time low when I realized that 18.6 per cent of the population was unemployed during that particular Administration which now occupies the Opposition benches. Mr. Spea ker : The han. the L8 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What a uery inter e stin~ response. I belieue she impliec that she wasn't UE!ry proud in 198~ when the unemployment rate For Newfoundland was 18.6 or 7. WeL it's 18.6 now in April of 1990, under her Administration. Is sh~ proud of that? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Pr E:~ rnier Premier Wells: Mr.

Speaker, intend to answer the question thai was asked, at the request of l:hE Minister, because I arn hauing thE statistics assessed and I tAJant tc tell the House thE:~ progJnC:~ss I haue made so far. It is being donL=>. ir detail, and I to~.Jill table all thE information for the House. But, for exampl e, what the Member wa ~ talking about was th e differ enc e between April, 1989 and April, 1990, and it is up 1.4 per cent. Now, Mr. Speaker, that sounds like there is a big difference anc euerything has deteriorated ir that one year. Now, las t month, those hon.

Members opposite were not asking about the . compari sor because it was down eigh -t-tenth s of 1 per cent, below what it. tJJas in March, 1989. That 's right, it was down below. Some Han . Members: Hear, hear! Ml". Spea k~r: Ordet", p}E!ase! Order, please! Premier Wells : Now, Mr. Speaker, euery once in a while you will get these inexplicable fluctuations, partly due to the fact that thes t: are not actual figures. These are test examples taken by Sta tistics Canada, so you will get these kinds of fluctuations. But, Min. Speaker, the Gouernment has No. 36 (Afternoon) R8

announced in the past that it is not an aspirin Government. We don't give aspirin for pain, we go to the root cause and correct the fundamental problem of it, and that's exactly what we are doing. Our remedy, Mr. Speaker, is not going to be aspirin it is going to be surgery, when surgery is needed to correct the problems of the past. Mr. Speaker: The hon . the Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms : Thank you, Mr . Speaker. It is rather nice to have the Premier back, I guess. To a certain extent, I am surprised at his humour. I hadn't seen it before in the last year, but it is nice.

I guess the old line that was used this morning by somebody who said, 'Where was the Premier? They said, he was in the hospital. How come? Because he lost his nerve' - is probably very appr ·opriate. Mr. Speaker, my supplementary again I will try - is to the Minister of Employment and Labour R e 1 at ion s . And I hope nob o d y wi 11 jump to res cue her, she can handle herself. Yesterday the Minister implied, and indeed I think she said, that in looking at their priorities, the Employment Generation Pro~ram was one that they cut, or they capped.

She even said and I quote: 'Everybody in Cabinet was sorry about this.' Today she said unemployment is a real concern of this Government. Can she tell us, then, how she could indicate yesterday that job c1neation is not at the top of this Government's priority list if she is so concerned about the unemployment rate? Isn't that a contradiction? Min, Speaker: The hon. the-:~ L9 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI Minister of Employment and Labour Relations . Ms Cowan: The Opposition a1nE! displaying, I think, Mr. Speaker, their ability - I suppose you could use the word ability .

I don't like to use a positive word when I am talking about the way they go about twisting what is said by myself or by other Members of the Cabinet in this particular House. I don't think there is any question, nor should t.hE·Ine bE! any question, of this Government's commitment to employment. The Budget in my particular Department is much higher this yea1n than it has been in the past, and I think that's indicative of our commitment to employment. There is work being done throughout this Government to build and then reinforce ou1n economy. Min. Speaker, I really don't knov.J tJJho I arn speaking to over there.

Some Hon. Members: Then sit down . Mr. Speaker : Order, please! Ms Cowan: It is quite obvious they can't bear to hear the answer, because our Government ts going around doing it in the right way, not by putt-.ing on band--a·.ids or giving aspirins, as the P1nc::~rrd.c-:~r said . We are trying to heal the disease which has been festering For the last seventeen y~;!ars, and that is simply put. Mr. Speaker: The hon . th e Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. SpE!aker. Another supplc-:~mentary to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations .

It is not only us, by the way, who are quoting the Minister. I think if she reads the press coverage of yesterday's Quc::~stion Period shE! No. 36 (Afternoon) "9

will see clearly what was said by herself, and if she reads Hansard. Anyway, let me ask her another question, Mr. Speaker. She also said in Hansard that she was sure that down the road - these are the words she used yesterday - 1 monies can be found to put into that program. 1 I wonder if she could be a bit more specific and tell us exactly when she expects to have this money. Does down the road mean in one month, in two months, or in two years? What does down the road mear:l? Mr.

Speaker: The Minister of Employment Relations. han. the and Labour Ms Cowan: I \AJould like to comment on his reference to what was said in the newspaper the other day. I sometimes think that perhaps the media has taken pity on the Opposition and is trying to assist them in doing a better job. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! I would again ask han.

Members on both sides, on my left and to my right, to please try and restrict their comments to the questions at hand I anti give the answers without embellishing them with debatable items and other adjectives which the Chair could use but doesn 1 t prefer to at this time. The han. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: It is very difficult, Mr. Speaker. Whr:~n there are such

preambles before they get to the question, you sometimes do not know where the question is I and to what you should be responding. LlO May 17, 1990 Uol XLI I think the hon. Member who just directed the question to me die not read Hansard correctly, nor was I quoted correctly in fhE Evening Telegram. I think I tAJil.l repeat what I said, reading it verbatim from Hansard, and that will answer his other question. After the Leader of the Oppositior got up and was tremendously agitated, I tried to reassurE! hirr about our position as a Government so he would feel better . So I said, 11 Mt~ . Speaker, my goodness!

I do not know why anyone would get so upset about that. I have saic: this Government is committed to having people employed. We are doing everything we can.

As I said the other day, we are putting money into long-term pt~ograms. 11 I pointed out, 11 There is I:. he Minister of Development, just arrived, one of the key figures in this, a key figure in our long-term goals to getting most of the people in this Province employed. 11 A.nd then I said, 11 I can say once more to the Leader of the Opposition, if it will make him feel any better 11 - I tJJas concerned about his emotional state - 11 that he need not gc:.d: so upset ... Mr. Rideout : You should be concerned about your sanity .

Ms Cowan: 11 We are rnordtoring I we are being careful, we arE! tl~y:ing to spend rnoney in a judicial tAJay, balancing the ne~:1ds of those tJJho are currently unemployed while trying to build the economy so that their long-terrn needs Fo1~ employment will be met at the same time. It is not an E:~asy job, but it is one which we relish and look forward to seeing reach fruition. 11 Now that is what I said yesterday. If l:hat in anyway reflects us as an uncaring No. 36 (Afternoon) R10

Government, or so on, then I would have to question the ears of those who heard my response yesterday. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Mr. Speaker, this is unbelievable! First she tries to blame everything on the media, and then she quotes from some page in Hansard which has nothing to do with the question I asked her. I asked her, and I quoted for her what she said in Hansard - 1 I am sure down the road monies can be found which wiil be put into that program. 1 That is what she said, and I asked her, What does down the road mean, this year, this month. next month. or when?

That was the question. Mr.: .. _. _.!t!.deout.,: When? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Employment Relations. han . and the Labour Ms Cowan: When the money becomes available, and when Cabinet in its wisdom makes that decision. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for Grand Bank . Mr. Matthews: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. I would like to ask the Minister, how many applications have been received by her Department for the Employment Generation Program this year. and how many have been approved? Mr.

Speaker : The han . the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: That question I will find out the anslAJer fotn. I have been waiting to ·provide it to the Ll1 May 17. 1990 Vol XLI House. I know the hon. Member has asked me fotn it. bC:~fore, but I was waiting till the most recent bal~.ch of using slippage has been atA.Jarded, because I prefer to give accurate statistics whC:~n I speak, and that will be brought to the House as expeditiously as possible. And you gentlemen know, having been in Government For sornl'! time. that it takes a little longer.

The word 1 expeditiously 1 oul~.s:ide the House means something different than inside. Mr. Speaker: The han. the M i:~rnber for Grand Bank . Mr. Matthews: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Yes, I realize that it does take a fairly long U.me for· the Minister to bring answetns to the House. We are looking for answers on t he Employment Generation Program, and, as lAJE!ll, on the funding to Fishery Products International since January 5.

But let me ask the Minister. can she confirm that indeed there have been 1,500 applications received by her Department and 400 approved, for a percentage approval of 28 per cent of applications brought in under U1is Department - that therE! has bE!en 28 per cent of those applical:ions received which have been approved? Does she have a 1nough idea of whether that is accurate? Mr. Speaker : The Minister of EmployrnE!nt Relations. han. the and Labour Ms Cowan: I am not go·:i.ng to stand up and give rough ideas.

I tAiill get the accurate information as soon as it is availablE!. and then those questions can be dealt with. Mr. Speaker: The hon. thE! Member No. 36 (Afternoon) Rll.

for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister inform the House when the last approvals were given under the Employment Generation Program? .Mr. _,_9pea~.~r: The han . the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: No, I cannot remember. It was some weeks ago, and we have some now in the works to be approved. I do not recall. It has been 'several weeks. Mr. Speaker: The hon. for Grand Bank . the Member Mr. Matthews: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would several weeks be the first week of Apri 1, or would that be a couple of months? Would the Minister know that? Some Hon.

Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Matthews: What this shows, Mr. Speaker, is that we have a Minister in charge of Employment and Labour Relations in this Province, particularly the Employment Services Division, who does not have a clue about wha"t is going on with employment in this Province. Mr. Speaker : Order, please! The hon. gentleman is on a supplementary. He is quite aware of the rules of the House. and I ask him to ge !t on with his supplementary. The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthet.us: I apologize for that, Mr. Speaker .

L12 May 17. 1990 Vol XLI Let me ask the Minister a further supplementary, Mr. Speaker . Ir the approval process carried out by her Department und er the Employment Generation Program. car she explain to the House and tc the 1,4-98 applicants under the program how come application~ which were received very earl~ after the program was announcec have been rejected, anc applications which were receivec much later have been approved~ Can the MinistE!r explain why that could happen, and maybe the process of how theSE! applicationf: are processed and approved? Mr.

Speaker: The Minister of EmploymE!nt Relations. hon . and thE Labour Ms Cowan : When the prograrr started, we envisioned having rnucl· more monies in the program than we did and we began accepting, if they fit the criteria, different programs as they carne in. Thon. when it. became apparent, thanks tc your friends in Ottawa. that. the Government was going to be hard-pressed for funds. and tAlE~ had to start looking at how tAJe t.uoulcl spend our money most expeditiously and judiciously, we decided tha t we would focus only on the ru1~a1 areas with high unen ·nployrnen t.

So that means that it did change somewhat, that you might have SE!E!n a difference in the geographical areas and so on. where poopJ.e al~e getting their programs approvod. Do you not want that again? TF1e Member doesn 1 t seem to want focus on his District. Mr. Simms: Answer the question. Mr. Matthews: I can tell you what was in my District and what you approved. It was not very much . No. 36 (Afternoon) R12

Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Ms Cowan: Perhaps it tAJas the criteria. That is all I can say. If the gentleman has some very real concerns, instead of making political points out of it, I would expect him to come to me and say, Look, I have ·these people who are really needing it. Some of ·the other people did, some of your colleagues, and I was only too glad to listen to them. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for Green Bay . Mr. Hewlett: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. With regard to this program, Mr.

Speaker, in my district there were twenty-six applications, two were rejected, four accepted, and twenty are 1 pending 1 • Now, I gather the only money we have available is through s 1 i p page so I wo u 1 d as k the Minister for Employment and Labour Relations, given current rates of slippage, how many of the pending twenty in Green Bay can reasonably expect funding this year? Mr. Speaker: The han . the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: When we are examining it I shall tell the han . Member, Mr.

Speaker, through you, that if his district shows there is high unemployment and if there are applications there which meet the criteria, then they will be approved. As to how many that will be, there is no way I can predict that. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for Green Bay . Mr. Hewlett: Thank you, Mr. Ll3 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI Speaker. I have a farmer in Green Bay who, under the old PC employment program, used to provide seasonal tJ.Jork for a half dozen people.

He canot afford to hire anyone for a sixty week period, so I would ask the Minister is it not better to provide seasonal employment to a half dozen people than to bring in a program that provides no employment for anyone? Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. the MernbE!I" for Green Bay . Mr. Hewlett: Mr . Speaker, I haVE! laid off fish plant workers in Green Bay whose UI claims have run out and they do not have enough stamps to start a nE!W claJ.rn. Their choice, welfare or move. So I would ask ·the Mini.stel", arE! thE:! Liberals back in the resei:tlemE!nt game again? Some Hon.

Members: Oh, oh! · Mr. Speaker : Order, please! The han . the MinistE!I" of Employment and Labour Relations . Ms Cowan : It is not the Provincial Government that is into a program of resettlement, Mr. Speaker, but the Federal Government. Mr. Speaker : for Menihek. The han. thE! MembE!I" Mr. A. Snow: Mr. Speaker, my question is also to the MinistE!r of Employment and Labour RelaU.ons. On Monday, May 14, the~~ Minister made a statement in this House, and I quote- · and this is from Hansard. It is not from any media; it is not from the Evening Telegram nor the Sunday Express. No. 36 (Afternoon) R13

I say it with some hesitation, in the sense that I don 1 t want to see the people at Hansard attacked. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. A. Snow: I quote: 1 My Department and the Government is always monitoring the employment figures. If we come to a stage where we see a need for some sort of employment creation program, then we tAJill act upon them. 1 I want to know now, since the unemployment figures have been announced and they are at almost 19 per cent, can the Minister now tell me is the time now right to act? Mr.

Speaker: The Minister of Employment Relations. han. the and Labour Ms Cowan: It is always the time to act to try to correct unemployment in this Province. We are acting, and again I could reiterate a number of points where we are acting. Perhaps the gentleman would like us to take away some things. Perhaps we should not have as many hospital beds, maybe we should take back some of the social workers we found. There are priorities we have to meet, and we are doing our best. We are putting forth our best efforts to reach those goals, and those goals include unemployment.

I am really amazed at the sudden interest in the Employment Generation Program, when they have actually known that we were not going to put new monies into that program at this particular time. They have known that for six to seven weeks, and it has only been in the last few days that suddenly they have started asking me all those questions about it. I L14 · May 17, 1'990 Vol XLI wonder how high their prior·ity is when it comes to addressing the unemployed in this Province? Mr. Speaker: for Menihek. The han. the Member Mr. A. Snow: Mr.

Speaker, we d:ic grill the Minister in the Estimates ; we did not get the answers then, and we are still not getting the answers. We are raising the issue now becaus~~ tJJe have a concern for the unE !rnploye d of this Province. We are not just directly concerned about car allowances, we do have a concern for the unE!rnployed. Now, what does the level of unemployment have to reach for this GovernrnE!nl: to have a concern for une!lnployrnE!nt? Mr.

Speaker : The Minister of Employment Relations. hon. the and Labour Ms Cowan: I guess that speech reflects that the gentleman came into the House just, recently and has not really assessed the performance of the group wi l:h which he now sits. If he had taken the time to sit down and examine those statistics, he wou1d have been embarrassed to stand and make a statement like that . We are addressing the nE!~~ds of lhE! unemployed in this Province. The game is, of course, to make the Opposition look so wonderful, they have so much support Fo1n l:he unemployed, and we over here do not care.

Isn 1 t interesting, again, how that group 1 s arrogant position when they were on this side has flip-flopped so quickly as they have crossed the floor? Our Government is commi l:h~d to resolving the unemployment pr·ogram in this Province. We are tJJorking diligently to do so, and that is understood and respected by the No. 36 (Afternoon) R14

people we represent. Mr. Speaker: for Fogo . The hon . the Member Mr. Winsor: Mr. Speaker, my question is also to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Yesterday, in response to a question, the Minister said and I quote: 1 The money will be going to areas in the Province where there is a high rate of unemployment. 1 If that is the case, can the Minister tE!ll me why only five applications and five jobs were provided under the program, of the several that were submitted from the Fogo District, and all of them that came were in the first week or two weeks of the program? Mt:_.

Simm.s: That is a priority too. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: I would be quite glad to check those statistics. Again, I am surprised, because this gentleman who just rose from the other side. I think of him as one of the more sincere people on that side. During the evening they questioned me on my Estimates, he asked me some questions which I thought showed a great deal of sincerity and caring, and I was impressed. But there he is again, falling into the same trap as some of the other Members.

If he had that concern, why didn 1 t he come to me and I could see if there was some problem. I would have been only too happy ·to do that. I am here to serve the people of the Province in unemployed areas, and I would be quite willing to entertain anyone from the opposite side of the House. LlS May 17, 1990 Vol XLI An Hon. Member: Way to go, Patt! Some Hon. Members: Hear, hE!ar! Mr. Speaker: for Fogo. The hon. the Member Mr . Winsor; Mr . Speaker. I do not wish to debate the Minister, but in the Estimates - • Mr. Speaker: No, and the han . Member is not permitted either. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Simms: Nor is thE! hon . Minister. Mr. Speaker : for Fogo . The hon. the Member Mr. Winsor: Mr . Speaker, wil]. not the Minister acknowledge that in the Estimates I had to give her all kinds of information about her program and the ChallengE! 1 89 and 1 90 Programs?

And, furthermore, the Minister, who in this House and to the media said the people of Fogo will simply have to resort to welfare, and the Minister by making that statem~nt was admitting there is a severe employment situation in rural Newfoundland, why did she not address the problem by creating some jobs in Fogo District, and throughout the Province in general, if she knew such a problem existed? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Employment Relations. hon . the and Labour Ms Cowan: Government just that. Thank you. She and her are attempting to do Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Membet~ For Fogo . No. 36 ( Af tE!rnoon) Rl5

Mr. Winsor: Mr. Speaker, in her answer yesterday, the Minister criticized the previous program of the PC Administration and said it was demeaning to the people. Does the Minister not consider it to be demeaning to be sending the people to Social Services, and 7, 606 people out of the Province entirely? Is that not demeaning to Newfoundlanders as well? Some Hon. Members : Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Employment Relations. hon . the and Labour Ms Cowan: We do not want to see people on social assistance, Mr. Speaker.

And as a result of that, the Department of Social Services, working along with Education and my Department, are conducting a pilot program this year which I heard, standing out there in the hall, this fine Minister of Social Services explaining very well to his Commit tee, when he was being grilled by the Estimate Committee. And that is a direct attempt to remove anything that might be demeaning from welfare.

It is a program that is going to develop people's job skills, take them into the work force, follow them through the work force, provide consultation to them to help them adjust to the work force, and hopefully see them develop a permanent attachment to one particular job. Mr. Speaker: expired. Question Period has Some Hon. Members : Hear, hear! Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Ll6 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Employment Relations. hon. the and Labour Ms Cow~D: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to report today that I arr tabling in the House the Legislative Report of the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, 1989 Program Planning and Re~iew. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given Mr. Speak~r: The Minister of Employment Relations. han . the and Labour Ms Cowan: I have today, Mr .

Speaker, to table in the House l:.wo agreements that have been requested by the Opposition and which, now that I have had an ample time to consult lAiil:h a variety of officials and make sure that there is nothing divulged here that would be inappropriate as far as the two companies are concerned, I can. now _table the:' Adjustment Program for Fish Plant Workers Agreement made at St:.

John's, in the Province of Newfoundland, this 14th day of April, between Her Majesty Lhe Queen, et. cetera, etcetera, et cetera, and National Sea P1noduc ts Limited and th~ other agreement is made between this GovernmE!nt, Her Majesty the Queen, and Fi shelny Products. An Han. Member: What arE! the dates again? It is important . Ms Cowan: April 26th for onE!, and April 14th for the other. You will see now, it is coming. An Hon. Member : (Inaudible) . No. 36 (Afternoon) R16

Mr. Speaker: Order, Order, please! Petitions Mr. Speaker: The han. for Torngat Mountains. please! the Member Mr. Warren: Thank you very much Mr. Speaker. I have another Petition to present, Mr. Speaker. Again, as I have been doing for the last number of days, I have one on the Air Subsidy Program . Mr. Speaker, a few days ago when I presented a petition from 220 people in the community of Hopedale, the han. House Leader said there would be answers coming before the end of the week. Mr.

Speaker, today is Thursday, we have one more session after today, and the Minister had opportunity today to advise the people of Newfoundland and Labrador what the answer would be. Mr. Speaker, we only have one more day this week where he can make that announcement. In fact, I understand that the announcement has been available for the last number of weeks but, for some reason, and I think it is working, the Government want to keep back the announcement until the House is closed.

They were planning to keep back the announcement of their program and make it after the House closed, sometime during the summer when most people are on their holidays. Fortunately, Mr. Speaker, the people in Labrador know what this Government is up to, and therefore, day after day, they are L17 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI asking me to present petitions in this HousE! to make sure that this Government wi11 com1:! up wit.h thE! answer they want ·- not u.Jhat l:his Government wants, but what they want - for the Air Subsidy Program to be reinstated as it was in the past, or even improved. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, I believe, is going to respond today, I have a feeling he is going to J"e:~spond to this l"li:'quesl, because it does tie into the $100,000 amount in his Dr:'partrnE~nt that they have advised the sports and recreation groups could possibly be cut from his budget. The Minister has not told them that is not going to happen. He has put them on notice that, we are going to save $100,000, and wi11 save it on the backs of those people in sports and recreation, who travel in Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is important to my han. colleague from Placentia, because he t.uas ·- I have to give credit wheJ"e credit is due, because the hon. Member, a number of years ago, some 23 yeclt"s ago, was instrumental in adv:is:ing the former, forrnet", fol"rrJBI" Government about instituting this program, and it is ironic that this individual was working in Labrador and gave a contribution to the people of Labrador to have this program initiated and now, here he is, a Member of this House, on the:~ GovernrnE!nt sidE:~ of this House, t.uho u.d.11 be a party. in this Government, to reducing this subsidy. Mr.

Speaker, I would think the han. the Member for Placentia wi11 have a very serious decision to make when this Gouernrnent makes a decision. So if there is any cut No. 36 (Afternoon) R1'7

at all in this particular program - Mr~~~eat~: Order, please! The hon. Member has about a half a minute left. I wonder would he allow the Chair to interrupt just for a second? I was passed a note about students, and I see they are leaving the gallery, and we would like to welcome them, acknowledge their presence. and extend them a warm and cordial welcome. They are thirty Grade X11 students studying democracy -from the Holy Trinity Regional High School of Heart 1 s Content. accompanied by their teacher Miss Maureen Robinson and their bus driver Mr. Albert Jackson. Some Hon. Members: Hear.-hear! Mr.

Speaker: half minute. The hon. Member -a Mr. Warren: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is very interesting that those students really got a good lesson in democracy today from the Government. Mr. Speaker. in cluing up as you said, I only have about three or four minutes left. Mr. Speaker: A half minute. Mr. Warren: Mr. Speaker, I want to say to my hon. colleagues opposite that. please on behalf of the thousands and thousands of people in Labrador who use the Air Subsidy Program. who use the Sports and Recreation Program.

For the sake of those people keep that program in place. and if you do anything increase the subsidy. Because. Mr. Speaker. our great Province in 1949 consisted of Newfoundland and Labrador not just L18 May 17. 1990 Vol XLI Newfoundland. And make su1ne, Min. Speaker. that the people ir Labrador have access to the Islanc part of the Provinc10:1 in eve1ny IAJay possible. And I refer this to the Department to which it refers. or I should say Departments. because it refers to the Department of Works, Transportation and Services and also to Municipal and Provincial Affairs. So. Mr. Speaker.

I hau e many. many more petitions that I will definitely be delivering during the next number of days until this Government makes a statement. Mr. Speaker: Order. please! The hon. gentleman 1 s tirnE! is up. It has been up For sometime as a matter of fact. Mr. Warren: Thank you. Mr·. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: for Menihek. The hon. the Membe1" Some Hon. Members: Hear. hear! Mr. A. Snow: Thank you very much, Mr. Sp-eaker. I am pleased to rise to haVE! thE! opportunity to speak in support of the prayer of the petition for the people from the hon. Member 1 s District. The hon.

M10:1rnbE!In has presented many petitions on behalf of his constituents. An Hon. Member: Ably presented. Mr. A. Snow: Very capably and very ably presented the petitions' and spoke to thern. And I am pleased to have the oppo1ntuni ty to speak in support of this particular petition. Of course, we all know there were two prog~ams to support subsidy No. 36 (Afternoon) R18

programs, to support transportation to and from Labrador available to Labrador residents. One was the Labrador Travel Program. And of course, the first Subsidy Program for air transportation to and from Labrador was the Labrador Air Passenger Subsidy Program, and it was undoubtedly the most used program. It seemed fit to offer to the residents of Labrador back in thE.~ mid 1960s or early 1960s and it was brought in for numerous reasons. It was brought in by the previous Liberal Administration. .

It is interesting t·o note that it took another Liberal Administration to cancel the program; a program that was very beneficial to the people of Labrador, I might add, a program that saw about 6, 000 people apply for a subsidy last year. That 6, ,000 people comprises a figure of about 20 per cent of the population of all Labrador. And when we look at the number of people who would be restricted from applying for a subsidy to fly out of Labrador, we can understand this probably truly repre"sents ·a greater percentage of the people who could qualify under the guidelines established under the program.

There were several restrictions OVE!r' the years placed on the program by different Administrations. I· firmly believe, and so do most of the people in Labrador firmly believe, that both programs should be re-introduced and indeed they should be enhanced. The Travel Subsidy Programs to and from Labrador should be enhanced, the high cost of travel to the Island portion of the Province from Labrador inhibits quite a bit of travel and, of course, this is not good to have this feeling of alienation developing within L19 May 17, 1990 Uol XLI Labrador.

It is interesting to note that the vote for this particular amount of money came from the Ministry of Transportation and Works. That particular Department has completely disregarded the people of Western Labrador, specifically, when they talk about the role of what they should be doing in the maintenance of transportation modes in our area. The highway is completely deteriorated now, and the fact that his Departrnen l: did not see fit to see:~ that the:~ sno1JJ should have been removed in the spring to make it a lot more convenient for the water to run off and thus to facilitate the road drying faster.

And we are seeing now that the road is in terrib1e condition because• of the contractor moving their heavy equipment dolJJn to staJ~l: this summer construction season. But speaking to the transportation program, I brought that up in light of the fact that I think the present Minister does not understand thE! needs of any of the transportation methods and modes in Labrador. and that is pJ~obabJ.y the reason why this particulaJ~ program was cut, slashe•d, removed from the people of Labrador .

That, combined with the Minister of Finance and his approach to removing this so called bem,fi t he referred to, because the Federal Government gave the residents of Labrador a tax benefit. He was quoted in one of hts speE!ChE!S as suggesting that was the reason why he felt that the program was cut, because the Federal Government dectded there · wou1d be a tax benefit package available to the residents of Labrador with regard to travel out of Labrador. And I notice he is nodding in agreement tAli th me notJJ, that is why he agreed No. 36 (Afternoon) R19

with cutting, slashing and gutting the programs and being prejudicial to the people of Labrador, and he is nodding in agreement with that. That is ·too bad. I hoped he would come into Labrador and explain to the irate residents there why that program should not be in place, and he would not be so pleased, and he definitely would nc.t agree with ·cutting the program. Mr. Speaker: time is up. The hon. Member 1 s Mr. A. Snow :, Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . Orders of the D~y Mr. Decker : Order two, Mr. Speaker . On motion, itself into on Supply, Chair. that the House resolve Committee of the Whole Mr.

Speaker left the Committee of ~he Whole Mr. Chairman (Snow): Order, please! The hon . the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister of Health is very anxious to get the question put on the estimates for the Executive Council and the Legislature and Consolidated Revenue Heads that we have been debating now for the last number of days.

But I say to him that he might as well sit back and relax because until the thrE!e hours and fifty-eight minutes have expired, L20 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI that we are entitled to have t( ask questions, the question wiL not be put, at least frorn our perspective it will not be put. Mr.

Chairman, we have seen over the past - I am just waiting for my notes unfortunately - I have f bunch of questions that are stJlJ outstanding, and with less thar four hours remaining I would havE hoped by now that the GovernrnE!n1 House Leader, the President ol Treasury Board, would havE responded to those questions that have been outstanding now for wel J over a week. I have them listec just in case they have slipped hi~ mind. As soon as I gE!t my note~ from my office I wiLl run tht~ougl· some of those for his benefit. But in the meantime ·there are always other topics of interest that one can get onto.

The Minister of Social Services is always anxious to get up and speak in the debate on something or other. Perhaps he would takE advantage · of the"::~ occasion. 1 would like to see him get. up anc take advantage of the occasion tc tell us what is going on at the youth correctional centre. 1 think it would be a timely topic to address. An Hon. Memb ·er: (InaudiblE!) . Mr. Simms: Oh well. You were going to sit back and relax. I think it is bC::~tter tAJhen the Minister does participate. He does add something to the debatE! . Nbw, sometimes, unfortunately, sometimes his spE!ech is rather repetitious.

He gets up and he attacks · the GovernTllE!nl over Sprung, he blames everything or the seventeen years of PC rule, and if not on that, then the Federal GovernrnE!nt. That ts his standard speech. I tAJould like to No. 36 (Afternoon) R20

hear him say something productive. I would like for him to offer some explanation to the House, and to the public at. large, as to what is happening at the youth correctional centre. All we hear about in the public, of course, is - Mr. Efford: Why don't you ask me some questions? Mr. Simms: If the Minister would stop interrupting me I will be able to finish my sentence. He will get ten minutes, I hope, sometime to answer this. I would like for him to explain to the public what the problem is down there at that institution, because publicly there have been a lot of concerns expressed.

The workers down there, I believe, have gone out. twice now in the last couple of weeks. They have left their jobs, left the workplace and gone out and picketed, or whatever they have done, so it· is pretty obvious that something is wrong. Now, it may be an internal problem. I understand it has to do with their own inability to be able to access their personnel files. As I understand it, -their inability to access their own personnel files is one of the big issues. What exactly does that do to the institution itself? While the wo r k e r s are up s e t o v e r t hi s doe s that create a problem?

I asked the Minister of Mines and Energy some questions the other day and he answered some of them, but I think there were a couple of questions dangling that he wo~ld be familiar with. I do not need to repeat them, I am sure. Hopefully, he will take advantage of the opportunity presented during this debate to get up and respond to those couple of questions. But I want to direct the five or six minutes I have L21 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI left in this ten minute portion, some questions to my friend the Minister of Education once again, who has just carne into thE! HouSE!.

He would be aware of all the concerns that haVE! been expressed about the Government's decision, his Department's decision to close down the pediatric schools, we will call them, the schools in hospitals, and layoff the teachE!rs in three hospitals outside of St. John's, Grand Falls, Corner Btnook, and St. Anthony. He is aware of that issue, well aware of it, because concerns have been expressed by parents, by children, by Former patients, by nurses, the professional pE!OplE! in the hospitals, and so on, but most recently he has received a communication From th.::~ has pi t.al board in Grand Falls.

I would presume he has had a chance to read it as it is a lAJeek old. I happen to have a copy of the communi cation, b-ut in that communication, perh~ps he will even admit, in that communicati.on there were a couple of interesting arguments put forth by thE! board. and I just want to relate a couple of them to Members of the House. They are famili.ar with the general arguments that have been put forth by Members of thE!

Opposition and by some parents and so on in the public medi.a, but i.n their 1.ettE!r they expressed concerns, first of all, of course. about the process that took place leading up to the decision to close theSE! pediatd.c schools. They point out that in fact there rea1.ly was no consultation with any of the health care professiona1s or indeed any of the teachers that were to be affected by this change. They do say that the hospital administration was notified. No. 36 (Afternoon) R2l

Mr. Chairman, I wonder if a couple of the Ministers opposite might be able to go outs:ide and have their conversation? They are speaking rather loud and I am losing my train of thought. They did say that the administration received a telephone call on an informal basis, but confidential basis, advising them that such a move might take place. Now, that is a 11 the y r e c e i v e d . The r· e was no consultation, no particular ability to discuss the issue because they were told it was confidential. That is one thing they were concerned with, the process. But, here is the point. I want to raise with the Minister.

They have stated some concerns about the rationale used to close these pediatric schools, ·and they do say it is true that school age patients, who have been admitted to the hospitals in recent years, h a v e had "s h or t e r 1 e n g t h s of s t a y . And they point out that the Central Newfoundland Hospital Centre provides services to 350 to 4-00 ·-- Some Han: Members: Oh, oh! .~.......:... S i_!!!.!TI~ : T hi s i s a v e r y s e rio u s issue, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to have the opportunity to explain it to the Minister of Education. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Order, please! Mr.

Simms: -to the ·3 50, 400 patiE!nt:s annually. They point out that these school age patients do have shorter lengths of stay, as the Minister said in his statement. They do point out and admit that; they really have no argument with l:hat. But tAJhat they do point out and they admit, as L22 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI well, is the average length of stay in the hospital is between four and five days, as the Minister said in his statement.

HOlAJever, what they do say is that a significant number of these pediatric patients - a significant number of them -have chronic problems, such as diabetes, asthma, and cancer ·-he wi11 recall the letter no doubt -and they, therefore, require admission, albeit For four or five days at a time, rnany times throughout the year. I just want to makE! thE:~ point the people here are making for the benefit of Members of the House and the public.

They do say, 1Consequently, these patients could loose weeks, if not months, of school timE:~. 1 They alnguE:~ that the Department of Health has lots of information to substantiate their argument that thE!Se 'schools are very valuable. They also p~int out that as a regional hospital they admit patients from all over central and southern Newfoundland, and many times these patients have to be admitted to hospital. SollletimE!S, I say to the Minister, thE:1 om•s from outside the immediate central Grand Falls area, the south coast and so on, have:1 been aclmitl:ed for four to five weeks at a titTlE'.

It is important -it is important -I say to the Minister, as thr:'SE! people say, that l:hey keep tl'lEdin school work up to date during this hospitalization. And they also say, 1Transferring theSE! child1nen to the Janeway Hospital for school reasons is not a practical solution. 1 They also have said it is not fair and equitable to close the schools outside St. John 1 s, yet b:~ep the school at 1-.:he JanelAJay open --· lay No. 36 (Afternoon) 1~22

off the four teachers outside and keep the thirteen teachers at the Janeway. Mr. Chairman : Order, please! The hon. Member's time has lasped . Mr. Simms : If I could just finish that last point contained in the letter for the benefit of the Minister - for the benefit of the Members actually. They also say that part of the rationale the minister gave for closing the schools was because you were receiving requests from other h·ospitals around the Province for similiar services. And they make a good point.

They suggest, or ask, could. you ncit establish criteria regarding which facilities should have pediatric schools? For example, the facility must be a regional hospital with at least an 18 or 20 bed pediatric unit. Presumably that is the process followed by Government Departments when they are determining program eligibility. That, I think, is a positive suggestion, it is a point that was not raised in debate in the past. And again, they make the point - An Han. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. Simms : Okay. I hope the Ministet" will. Finally they make the point on closing the schools outside St.

John's, as I said, and leaving the St. John's one, even though th~ three schools outside St. John's, and this is a key point, the three schools outside St. John's teach almost as many students on a yearly basis as the Janeway Hospital does. They think the decision to close the schools outside St. John's and keep the Janeway one open is really unfair L23 May 17, 1990 Uol XLI and inequitable . I thank han. Members fat" thE! additional minute or so t:hey gave me, and look forward to the Minister's response. Mr.

Chairman: The hon. the Mc:1mbc:11" for Stephenville. t'l.r:....:__ ___ ~: ___ _.B_ylwi_!f.Q: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before the Minister responds, in a litt.le tJJhtle, I want to respond to the hon. the Opposition House Lead~H", Leader number two. He talks about education, he has talked about primary equcation. I want to talk about some of the initiatives just very briefly, about what · has happened in our area because of the Minister of Education's initiatives he has brought fot"Wat"d. They are vet"Y t"c::1aJ. and very conct"ete.

Onc:1 of the things I was more than pleased to see was the increase in scholarship funding. I do not think people understand the significance of what we did, but for all those years, those small scholat"sl'lips that were ongoing, those small $500 and $600 scholarships, they have not been touched in a J.ong, long time. It goes back to my days in university, way back whE!n in the mid-1970s, and that tAJas a long time ago; but even back in that period they were $500 or $600, and before that they were $500 or $600, or $200 or $300 or $400.

This Government increased the amount of dollars available to those scholarships from $82,000 to $282,000. That is a very sizeable increase which affects people; people who need the dollars, who are young, smart individuals who want the dollars and apply for them, now have much more access to scholarships. That is an No. 36 ( Af tel" noon) R23

excellent initiative, something this Government did right off the bat. The Minister should be commended for it, and the Opposition should be saying, Way to go, Government! But I don't hear that. That one move alone sends a signal to young people in this Province who are going into post-secondary education, that this Government supports thl':~m. And not only that, we are going to tl"Y to help thE!m in a system. Student aid, for example, on the post-secondary side, we have increased that, a first time again, a major increase in student aid. An Hon. Member : 15 per cent. And upped tuition ~r.

K. __ . ..8..Y.l.~ard: Tuition? When they were in Government they increased it every year. I mean, it was nuts ! If you go b a c k and look at student aid increases when you were in Government - you've got to be kidding me! One of the reasons I ran in 1985 was to get rid of the Government, because of the increases every year . Student loans were going up; everything was going up. So, let us be credible. When you are going to give it to us that is fine, but be credible when you criticize, because it is very simple. You ignored scholarship funding for ten or fifteen years.

This Government got in and in one year there was a 200 per cent increase in scholarship funding. So that is a good initiative. The funds for student aid were increased again, a very large amount, going into the fund to dish out to people, so that if a 5 per cent increase was put on them by the university or the Government, whatever, then the people who needed it most would be able to L24 · May 17, 1990 Vol XLI deal with the increase. Now, that is l:he way to go. w~ did that.

We compensated foJ" i·l that way, put ex ·tra dollars in sc more people would get student aic and they will not have to retir~ from university and so on. Ml". Chairman, going into primar~ education, in our Bay St. GeorgE region, the Port au Port R. C. School Board have been tryoing Fo1· five or six year·s to get a I1E!l.i primary school, the second largest primary school in the Province. with at least 500 students.

The~ have had the request in for quitr: some time to the CEC, and twc weeks ago, t.hl':~ sarnc '! day thE Minister was being askE!d question~ about the commitment to primar~ education, I called the CEC officE and the administration told mE that approval had just. been giv1H for a nE!W primary schooJ For ::3t .. Stephen's Primary in Stephenville, Port au Port R. C. School Board, $3 million ·to go ahead and construct a new primary school. Now, you know, that is a real improvement. That is something real which affects primary students in Bay St. GeoJ"ge and ir Stephenville.

That would not have happened as quickly as it. did if the Minister of Education and thi s Government had not incr eased the school construction budqet Fro1r $20 million to $27 million in their first year of Government . And in the second year of Government we kept it at $27 million. That is a real, real incr·ease. It is dollaJ~s into the system to construct new schools which are definitely nN~ded aJ"ound the Prouince, $14 million extra dollars over a tl.o~.Jo-year peJ"iod well, just a J.ittle more t.han a year - and that it is qoing to have an affect is very evident No. 36 ( AftE!rnoon) R24 ·

~~ . now. I know one thing. the students of St. Stephen 1 s P1nimary and their parents will be thanking this Government for their commitment to education. So that is fine and dandy. That is just one effect of the increase in the school construction budget, which is very real, and again I do not hear any commendation of the Minister for that. Do they want us to put it up another $10 million? We tJJould love to. But we are trying to do the best tJJe can, and that is a sizeable increase. It is very good. The school tax equalization is another real issue which was addressed by this Government.

It went from $4 .5 million to $10 million in last year 1 s Budget; in one year, more than 100 per cent. An Han. Member: there .. And it stayed Mr. K. Aylward: Stay.ed there! My jumpins! Stayed there, he said! I can • t believe it ! I don ' t k now what you want. A 100 per cent increase in school tax equalization in one year. and we keep it at that level for another year, which is not bad. So, even if we did it last year and we increased it by 50 per cent last year, we can say we increased it by 50 per cent this year. I mean, we could say that.

We could have done it politically, like that, if we wanted to. but we said. No. we are going to send a signal to the people out there that we are going to address primary and secondary education. We started that last year. and tJJe are going to continue to do it. Last year and the year before, 1 88-'89, the Port au Port R.C. School Board received $144·. 000 in school tax equalization. The year L25 May 17. 1990 Uol XLI before, $144,000. The year before, '88 - 1 89, this Government took office.

In less than one yeaun, in the first Budget. ovel" a 100 per cent increase, it went up to $363,000 school tax equalization - in one year. And here we have the Opposition getting up and condemning us. and we have a few school boards out wondering, well, the GoverntnE!nt is not committed to primary or secondary education! Well, if this Government had not gotten into power and doubled, 100 per cent. the school tax equalizati.on. I don 1 t know where they U.Jould be. Mr. Chairman. We know there have problems, but we are trying to address them .

The Minister has also stated that he is reviewing the per pupil grant system and the whole system for funding. because U.JE:1 know l:he pupil ratio is going down, we know that there is a declining enrollment. That is thE! real thing, ·but this Government is trying to deal with it, the Minister is attempting to deal with it. But he can't do it overnight. I think the Oppos i tJon should undt:!rstand that. The people of the Province, though, the:1y understand it. There is no doubt about that.

I t.~.Ji.11 teLl you the people in Stephenville understand it very well, and wht?.n the Minister of Education goes to Stephen vi 11 e . he wi 11 be than k e d . vel~y much so, because those are real positive changes which haJe affected education in the Stephenville District, and I am sure they have affected othE:'In areas of the Province. But I take it this way: if w~~ hadn't been in power. for one year. and tJJe hadn 1 t increased the scholarships by ovetn 200 per cent, we hadn 1 t increased the school tax equalization by over 100 per cent. we hadn't No. 36 ( Aftetnnoon) R25

gotten the school construction Budget up by 35 or 38 per cent, where would we be now? That is thr:~ question rnark. But I am not sure. with the way they were going with their increases, minute increases as a matter of fact, a few dollars here and there. And they have the gall to get up and say you are not doing enough for primary and post-secondary education. I mean. let1s be credible folks, let1s be credible! Really, these are real changes. We have to concentrate this year. We are talking about education in the hospitals, and again thE:~ Minister is trying to deal with that for thE! young people in hospitals.

But I will. tell you that we have hospital beds opening up for the first time in years; we have expanded services in hospitals for the first time in years. So health care had a real shot in the arm this year by this Government. A-nd it deserved one, just like education. Education and health care, two major priorities with this Government. We are doing a good job as far as t am concerned, and we have a lot rnot"e to do.

So I would say to the Opposition let 1 s be credible with it, not because we aren1t doing certain things, but give us credit for doing other things we are doing, and we are doing some good things which are having a real effect on the people out there. I wanted to point this out especially, that our region, not only my region but I am sure other regions, are benefitting very much so from these increases. But, again, we could only do so much in such a short period of time. And compared to what the previous Administration did, we are way ahead. They know it very much so, and it is time they realiZ(.;!d it.

L26 May 17, 1990 Uol XLI Now, when they get up and they want to be critical of us, tell us to make sorne changes, tell. us how to do it and then tell us how to raise the money so !:hat we can go and pay for it, because that is the other problem with which we are left, trying to develop the economy which they left in shambles. Again, school tax is under review. Give us a bi"E:~ak! We at"e looking at that sys tern; we at"e trying to make it more equitable.

Again the Ministet" is doing what he can lAlith it, but I say that in one year the Minister of Education has done more for the kids of Newfoundland and Labrador in promoting their interests and in providing -I haven 1 t even gone through the list; there are another three pages of initiatives we have here and I won 1 t E!VE!n get into those. But on those things alone, the effect, I knm~J. '.in my area has been very good, very real and has been number one. · I hi:lve talked with parents, and they feel the same way. Mr. Chairman: Order. please! The han. Mernber 1 s time has elapsed. Mr. K. Aylward: Thank you, Ml".

Chairman. Mr:_._Chairm_~D.: The han. the Member for St. John1s East Extern. Mr. Parsons: Thank you, Mt". Chairman. I have to lAJc:dt For the han. the House Leadet" to sit down. He was slow in doing it. I suppose it is because of his age:', but we can all expect that. I have been with him here for the last four years, and hE! certainly is slowing down. Mr. Chairman, before I go into the No. 36 (Afternoon) R26

gist of what I was going to say in the next few minutes, I would like to address a few sentences at least to the Minister of Education. I certainly would be the last person to say anything anti if there was something positive . I am not saying he is not doing some things which are positive, I am not saying he is not doing his best. I know we have restraints as far as the money is concerned, but we have to take into consideration that no matter - last year with the 4 per cent increase per pupil - Dr. Warren: . The one grant. Mr.

Parsons: The one grant - in one s c h o o 1 boar cJ I know of , that would increase their revenue, I think, by $182,000. Dr. Warren : And they got school tax equalization on top of that . Mr. Parsons : That is right, but not in this area I speak of, okay? That is mostly out in the rural areas, the rural Districts. The one I speak of is a local school board. They took in $182,000 approximately, but with your colleague 1 s payroll tax, they wilJ. lose $87,000, this school board. An Han. Member: What are you talking about, my son? Dr. Warren: The s c hoo 1 boards are 'not losing one cent. Mr.

Winsor: (Inaudible) giving it back to them, Special Warrants, is it? Mr. Parsons: He does not know . An Han. Member : He for God 1 s sake. Province fooled up. L27 May 17, 1990 doesn 1 t He has know, the Vol XLI Mr. A. Snow: What about the increase in (inaudible)? HotJJ atne you going to give that back to them? Mr. Parsons: Mr . Chairman, a lot of concern has been voiced, as well, about post-secondary education, and certainly post-secondary education is very important. Mr.

Chairman, the han. the Minister and I have talked on several occasions about a forgo lten era of ~;:~du ca t.:ion, a forgotten age in education, and that is the primary and elementary schools. For too many years and too many dollars we have talked about and placed outn money wh"'~lnE! we thought it was necessary, in post-secondary education. And it is necessary. But we forgot the ground rules. An Han. Member : (Inaudible). Mr. Parsons: No, we did not. H"'~ was gui 1 ty perhaps, and I tJ.Jas too. What I arn saying, Mr·. Chairman, is that we should place more emphasis on the primary schools.

Let me say this to the Minister, when I was on the School Board for St. John 1 s, we had schools which were bursting at the seams with pupils. We had them bu1nsting, Min. Chairman. We had to have a s c h o o 1 in ~:!a c h co mrn u n J t y just to give the pupils in that community a chance to have an education. Right now, Mr . Chairman, we have three schools which do not have the schoo1 population to continue; right. now we are looking for a school for the two communities. The two communities, Mr. Chaitnman, wetn"'~ viable entities only a very short period ago .

That wiJ.l show you how the pupil ratio has decreased. So when you are talking about putting extra money into schools, you have to take No. 36 (Afternoon) R2'7

into consideration that because of the lowering of the number of pupils, the dollars are just not going in as suggested by the Minister. There is a difference there. There has to be a difference. When the Minister gets up, I would like him to address that. Again he talks about sharing. I agree with the Minister that there is certainly room in this Province for sharing of facilities, but I would like to point out to the Minister, as well, that this cannot be done in a uniform manne.r, because in many areas in Newfoundland there is no need for it.

If 86 per cent of our schools do not need sharing, there is no need for it. There is no duplication. There is no need for it. So when the Minister speaks of sharing, religious-wise or any other way, he is only speaking about 16 per cent of our schools which need sharing. I would be the last one, Mr: Chairman, to say, where sharing is needed, that it should not happen. It should happen, because I do not think we can afford the luxury of not having this situation changed. I do not know what pressure Government can put on school boards or the educational committees, but it has to come in areas whelnE! it is needed.

What I am saying to the Minister is, it cannot be done in a uniform manner. It cannot be done overall, it has to be done where the need is apparent, where people are saying we would like the school to be amalgamated, the facilities of the schools to be shared. In that sense, I think it is a step forward. Mr. Chairman, yesterday we had a resolution presented here by the Member for LaPoile. Yesterday, I L28 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI complimented that Member for his presentation . I thought it was timely, and I thought it s er·v ed a purpose. I was sorry the hon.

Member did not think the amendment put forward by my colleague for Grand Bank was appropriate. I think he did that along party lines. I think that way down deep in his heart he felt, yes, l:his should be a program which s houlcl be shared by two Governments - the Provincial Government shou1d bE• sharing with the Federal Government to fil1 up that slack, to fill up that vacuum. I said yesterday, and I say today, that program was focused in the r·iqht direction. It did not add1ness the needs of the inshore fishe1ny.

But what I did not say yeste1nday lAJas that when I spoke to on«::~ of our represe·ntatives in Ottawa, I told him, 1 Well, the inshore fishery did not get justice.

Justice wa s not given to the inshore fishermen, and everyone - plant workers, fishermen, tAJhal:. have you. 1 And he said, 1 Look, W€~ address the needs for the present, but, 1 he said, 1 that plnogr·a.m lAri11 be ongoing. 1 And yesterday evening on the way home - I am sure the Minister of Fisheries listened as well as I did - I heard the Fishermens Union President, Richard Cashin, and not every time do I aqree with Richard, but what he said in essence yesterday evening lAJas that Dr . Kitchen: You agre ed lAJi t:. h Peter though . Mr. Parsons : You should know .

The Minister of Finance should know, because the Minister of Finance agreed as well. But yesterday I listened to him while going home . He spent two days in O·ttawa on ti;Je conce1nns of No. 36 (Afternoon) R28

~- the inshore fishermen and plant workers. and what have you. and the dilemma some of those areas have been left in because of the scarcity of fish, and he sounded as if there might be something coming . In fact . he was enthusiastic in saying that by next weekend there might be a program in place to help that area which was not addressed in the aid program. namely. the south coast. southwest coast. and the west coast. An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Parsons : No. that was Richard Cashin. He was interviewed on the Fishermen 1 s Broadcast.

Anyway. the impression I got from it. and I think everyone else did, was of his two days of deliberations with the Minister and the Minister 1 s staff, it seems that there is a strong possibility the people_ in those areas will be helped now. He talked about a guaranteed annual income. Now. I am not sure if that is in the cards. I would really put some doubt in it. I do not think that is on the horizon as yet. What I am saying is. no matter what way it is done. and I suppose the Federal authorities have to be very careful in setting precedents and whatever.

I feel the program will be forthcoming. and I believe. too, that the Federal Government will come to our assistance. But I say to the Minister of Fisheries now. and the hon. Member for LaPoile and all other hon. Members of the House. if that program is not sufficient to meet. the needs of those people. then I think this Government has a responsibility to come in with the L29 May 1'7. 1990 Vol XLI necessary money to put that progl"am in its right perspectivE!. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The Minister of Education . hon. the Dr. Warren: I am delighted to follow my friend. Mr.

Chairpel"son. and comment on a couple of things he said. and then comment on the hospital s c.hool situation. Mr. Chairman. I u.Jant to revietJJ some oF the statistics again. Perhaps I am not a very good teacher. 1 always took pride in being able to be a good teacher, but perhaps I am not a very good teacher. An Hon. Member: students! Oh, the poor Dr. Warren : Oh. the poor· students. Oh, I did not know. Because:~ I haV€:1 be:1en pointing out one fact which is being misrepresented somehow.

I want to reaffirm something · I said the other day, that when you look at. the increase in education this year. it is not nearly as much as we wanted; it is not as much as we need. but it is a substantial increase. and it is about 7 to '7.4- per cent in both prirn<:ti"Y, elementary. secondary, and post-secondary. the same increases in both. Now I want to stress that, because I agree with my hon. friencl 1 s comments, that the early y€:1ars are the critical years. If I were to pick where the priorities should be, it should be in the early years - and perhaps pre-school.

Maybe this Government is really going to have to address the tJJhole child care and pre-school thing . I am really convinced that a lot of the problems which occur in education sta~t beFore students enter school. I was in a No. 36 (Afternoon) R29

community last week where I wish I had money to put into a pre-school program. In fact, the Minister of Social Services and myself -he is not here, but I have talked to him about it -he and I are thi.nking about trying to help a community with a pilot at the pre-school level and see what effect that is going to have over the next ten years. So the hon. the Member for St. John1s East Extern is right on. The early years are tl1e critical years. And this Government is going to try to do its best to help students ih all areas of this Province, particularly in the early years.

This year, the rate of increase is about the same in both, depending on what statistics you use. That is the first point. The second one is that on tax equalization, I must say I am pleased with the increase of last yea~ and we maintained it this year. We more than doubled the amount. The former Government started with $2 million four or five years ago; $2.5 million the next year, tax equalization; $4-. 5 million the next year, the third year; $4.5 million and $2.5 million, that was substantial, but we gave to school boards last year $5.5 million on top of that. We more than doubled it.

And that is for maintenance and operation. My hon. friend who was on the board, and I pay tribute to everybody who serves on a school board free, voluntarily; they serve this Province tremendously, but he knows that money is spent for maintenance and operation. He knows also that we have the grant on a per pupil basis. Last year 4 per cent was the increase -not enough, but it. is a 4 per cent increase. Because enrollments are L30 May 1'7, 1990 Vol XLI going down, some boards got less, as he pointed out.

Now let me give you a statistic or so with respect to one board whic~ does not get much in schoo1 ta> equalization. Let us take the twc St., John 1 s Boards: they got the ~ per cent for grants, and yoL mentioned that figure was not E big figure. They do not ged school tax equalization. But looh 1/Jhat they get from schoo1. taXC::!S, thanks to people like the hon. Member lAJho wo1nked wi t.h School Ta> Authorities. Last year, the Avalon Consolidated School Board - perhaps it was 1989 -got $3.7 milJ.ion through school taXE!S.

Sc they do not gel:. tax r:~qualizat.ior because they have all the WE!a1.th, they have the industries, the~ have the people who pay. The Avalon Consolidated School Board, to add to the 4 pE!r cent lAlE! gave them last year, got $3.7 rni11.ior from school taxes, and the Romar Catholic Sch~ol Board in St: John 1 s got $5.8 miJ.lion. The average per pupil collection ir St. John1s, $314-per pupil for Avalon; $294 for Roman Catholtc. For the whole Province on schoo] taxes, it was only $187. They are getting much more frorr school taxes because they happer to be here, so we are givtng more.

The former Government started it, the school tax equalization. We just put more money into it. But I give lhe former Government credit, they started the school tax equalization to equalize St. John1s and to bring the rest of the Province up to St. John1s. That is the lAJay it shou1d be, but St. John1s ge!t 4-pr:1r cenl. We have to level up, you shou1d never level down. We did put a lot of money into school tax equalization last year. St. John 1 s does not No. 36 (Afternoon) R30

get a J.ot, but St. John 1 s gets a lot from school taxes because they happen to have all the weaJ.th, all the industries, and everything else. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Dr. Warren: You forced them to? My friend from Stephenville mentioned the increase in capital. $27 million. I am delighted, hopefully, to be in thr:1 Mernbel" 1 s riding in the next day or so. I have been as ked to give three or four speeches, people are delighted. I am going to be with him in his riding in the next few days, meeting over on the west coast in Stephenville, . in that area. Port au Port, in that whole area, so I am delighted.

Now. on hospital schools. Where is my friend on the hospital schools? Is he listening-? He is listening because he needs to be taught, over, and over, and over . I though I was a good teacher. Is it that he is a s 1 ow 1 earner? I do not know. I heard he got a good mark in his courses at university. Is he a slow learner? Let me tell him about the hospital schools. We are sensitive to the needs of young people who are in hospital. We want to assure that they do not suffer as a result of our termination of three schools with four teachers. That is all. We have 8000 teachers in Newfoundland and Labrador.

We cut the three schools outside St. John's. The one in St. John 1 s is a provincial school and it serves all the Province, as people come from all over the Province. We cut the three outside St. John's - four teachers. Now. I would like to give more teachers to more hospitals. I tJJould like to· give L31 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI more teachers to students who stay horne, who at"e sick at horne. for· a t.1.Jeek, two tAJeeks, or thl"E!e weeks. Nobody helps thern hardly, so I would like to have mor'E! money fol" them.

We decided to try another approach, and I want to tell the Member for Grand Falls that the school boards are going to be looking at this issue to see if we can find another tJJay to hE!lp students who need help. I am very sympathetic to the letters. By the way, I appreciate the letters. I '-l"ead every letter that comes, we answer those letters, and we are sensitive to the needs. I will talk with anybody about it. What we are trying to find now is another way of serving those students who are in for more than say, two or three days -··· and I think he made a good point students who come back.

I want to ask the school boards to be l"eady for September. I said it beforE! and I repeat, we need a new approach to this, for students who are in hospitals for longer periods, or students who, as the hon. Member said, repeat. He raised a good point and I will take that into consideration in the next analysis. We want to make sure that we provide s.:1rvice for these students so they do not suffer. I will meet with anybody, anytime. about this because I personally, and the Government, is committed to ensurE! that students get the best education possible, and we are going to provide alternate programs for this.

Mr. Simms: Would the kind enough to send rne his reply to that letter I talked about? Minister be a copy of particular Dr. Warren: The hon . ME!mber as ked about--getting a copy of l:he No. 36 (Afternoon) R31.

reply. We have been waiting until we get a lot of them in and then we are going to develop a policy statement we can send to them all,. I will send him a copy of the reply to that letter. I can assure him now, and the people in St. Anthony, where one teacher by the way , he i s rig h t on , the length of stay is very short in many cases, but there are some who come back, in St. Anthony, Grand Falls and Corner Brook. I do not have the details on the stay in Corner Brook. It is a little longer than in Grand Falls and St. Anthony. They had two teachers there.

We will respond to the letters., and more importantly than that, we are going to take some action to make sure that students who need help get it. I assure the parents in that area that I am going to ask the school boards to look a·t that between now and the fall. On the student aid thing, I must say, Mr. Chairperson, I am really pleased with the reaction to this Government's initiative on student aid. It has been brought up by my hon. friends across the floor. This year we added $1.7 million and the university students are delighted.

The student council said, look fees are going up 5 per cent, five per cent on $500 is only $25. We are adding more than 10 per cent on the grant, which is $1,000 a semester. So we arE! adding $100 a semester when the fees are going up $25. Use your mathematics, calculate, look at the statistics. Go back to the basics and calculate how much the amount is increased on student aid, because the Student Aid Grant is $1,000. The fees are only $500.

So 10 per cent on $1,000 is $100, 15 per cent on $500 is $75, and we are going to give more than 10 pe!r cent to single· parents and L32 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI to people with dependents. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. Member's time has elapsed . Dr. Warren : Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The hon. the ME!mbel" for Green Bay . Mr. Hewlett: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. As is my usual wont for rny hon. colle~~ue directly opposite, I will gi -ve a little poem t:.o start these remarks. It goes somEd:.h.i.ng like this. 'Dr.

Kitchen had a Budget, you and I, you and I owe, ... but to Rick SE!a\AJard'"S interview, he wouldn't, wouldn't go. The Budget hit a lot of things, like tax hikes, and program cutbacks, ... but no rnattE:'r what Dr. Kitchen sings, he \AJants nothing but your greenbacks.' An Hon. Member: Is that the same (inaudible) wrote? Mr. Hewlett: I did not LI.Jr:i te that one, Sir. As a matter of fact I would tell the Minister for Social Services that I absolutely dE!Spise cucumbers. I will not eat food that touches cucumbers. An Han. Member: Ho\AJ about Bev's Favourite Dip. Mr.

Hewlett: I would not try Bev's Favorite Dip for all the money on earth. Sir. I hate cucumbers. Mr. Chairman, having WOI"ked ".in the Pl"emier' s Office for· tE~n yE!al"S I am relatively familiar with the estimates of the Executive Council Department. Many oF the listings in the estimates are pretty , No. 36 (Afternoon) R3 2

standard, the Lieutenant-Governor 1 s establishment, the Premier 1 s Office, the Cabinet Secretariat, Intergovernmental Affairs, Treasury Board, Native Policy, Women 1 s Policy, and so on. There are two new headings, Mr. Chairman, that I think are worthy of comment. Constitutional Affairs is there as a new heading, and Newfoundland Information Services is there as a new heading. The movement of Executive Council Chairman, shows Government is NIS to the Department, Mr. that this particularly image. preoccupied with its There were a number of ads in the local paper a little while ago, Mr.

Chairman, offering relatively high paying Public Information Officer jobs to be directly answerable to the Premier 1 s Office. When the Premier was in Opposition, Ministers of the day ·would have press secretaries, Mr. Chairman, which position was paid considerably less even than the Minister 1 s Executive Assistant. It was a crime, Mr. Chairman, for the Minister 1 s to have Press Secretaries, but at the same time now it is okay for the Government to advertise for Press Officers paying in th-E! $40,000 or $50,000 per year range.

I am not saying it is wrong for the Government to do that per se, being elected they have the right to bring in whatever staff they wish, but they changed their tune considerably since when they were in Opposition. So moving NIS to the Executive Council Department means only one thing to me, Mr. Chairman, that a civil service information dispensing organization is now becoming a ~art of the Government 1 s propaganda effort, L33 May 17, 1990 VoJ.

XLI and putting it in ExecutiVE! they are trying propaganda f Ol" the Executive courSE!, is a run directly Council shows that to consolidate thE! this Government in Council which, of Department which is by the Premier. Mr. Simms: Herr GoebbeJ.s . Mr. Hewlett: Yes, Herr Goebbels . If you check the BudgE!t Es ·tirnatE!S you wil1 find that the PresidE!ncy of the Execut:i.ve Council has only nominal amounts in its subhead, Mr. Chairman, just nominal amounts. It is a titular role . The actual person in charge of the Executive Council Department is the Premier. So as I said, Mr.

Chair·rnan, it is not ilJ.egal for thern to moVE! NIS · up to Executive Counci.l, but it does show a changE! in thEdl" attitude with regard to GovernrnE!n t prop ·aganda. A dangerous blurring. I might say, of the civil service and political staff roles.

I remember when I workE!d in the Premier 1 s Office, rnany t.i1nes Government Members would comE! and express frustration that they couJ.d not get out a Pl"ess rE~J.easE' on NIS because the staff down thel"e, who WOl"ked in Public Wol''i<s and Services, saw something in the release that they considered to be partisan or provocative. and they were straining out those kinds of releases. Now taking it out of public works and putting it in the Executive Council Department under the Premiel" 1 s dil"ect control s holAJS that they are consolidating the propaganda effort in the Executi.ve Council and under the Premier.

An Han. Member: pickle book? Did you write the No. 36 (Afternoon) R33

Mr. Hewlett: No, Sir. I did not write the pickle book. Mr. Speaker, another manifestation of their preoccupations with image is the business of cars for Ministers. I remember back in the days when the Opposition and some elements of the media basically hounded Brian Peckford out of Mount Scio House. I remember tJJe gave up. the Government plane and turned it into an air ambulance. It was a favorite political football for the Opposition of the day -the Government plane. But I will bet you, Mr.

Chairman, if you check the records of Government after the Government plane was put over to air ambulance only, that the cost of travel for Ministers probably went up because you had to 1nent planes and so on. But I guess people wanted their pound of flesh. They wanted to see that plane grounded, and that is what is going on here with the Ministers cars. I mean, they sold the business of the Ministers cars as a savings to the people, but there are going to be no savings. And the people out there are not amused with your change. Again you have the right to make a change, you were elected.

But I think it was the change you thought would improve your image and it is going to do nothing to improve your image because at least in the old days the crown would get the car back for a trade in, with· the new policy the individual Ministers are going to end up owning the cars and the people on the open line shows are not pleased with that. So in a move to enhance your image, and pretE!nd that you are saving money I think you just stepped in hot water. You stepped in hot water.

L34 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI Constitutional Affairs is now a separate heading, and I gu~~ss this shows our Premier1s preoccupation with this Meech Lake business. But I have said on a number of occasions on the free time political broadcast and in this House that the Government1s preoccupation with Meech Lake is nothing more than a smoke scrE!E!n. It is part of a smoke and mi1nrors game, the same as the cars W€:!lne a part of the smoke and mirrors game, to pretend to the people that they are out to save the tax payers money when in actual fact. there will be minimal if any savings there.

We waded wholeheartedly into Meech Lake in this Province and for a long time it took people 1 s minds off the realities of what is going on out there, the fact that our fishery is in a severe crisis. Leave it to the Feds, they say. The Province takes a totally laisser-faire attitude with regard to the fishery and for a long time they were saying they WE!re perfectly happy with the way thE! Feds were running the fishery. Lately though they started to change their tune a little bit because the:~y are sta1nting to ~~E!t worried because reality is starting to hit horne, Mr. Speaker.

The smoke screen, the winds of reality, the winds of change, the real change, is driving the smoke scrE!en av.Jay and people are starting to see. Two budgets in a row they brought in measures that are going to drive power rates throuqh l:he roof in this Province, Min. Speaker, tlAJO budgets in a 1now. When they l/JE!l~e Opposition they were absolutely deadly opposed to _ even inflationary incr·eases tn t.he cost of electrical power. Tl/Jo budgEd:s in a rolAJ now they have No. 36 (Afternoon) 1n4

deliberately gone out of their way to bring in budgetary measures which are going to drive up power rates. They phased out the POD subsidy, they have a payroll tax and now we have guarantee fees. The Hydro people have gone now for a three year increase of about 13. 5 per cent. They say they are going to phase it in to the tax payers over a period of eight years, so we have five more years of increases up before the PU board yet to come, and the payroll tax will have to be factored into that as well.~ So, I mean, Mr.

Speaker, they c'an talk about Meech Lake, but sooner or later that is going to be over and then they are going to have to start dealing with the reality of the ~conomy of this Province. Mr. Chairman, as I indicated in Question Period today I have fishplant workers in my District whose current UIC claims have run out. They have had some work this year, they probably have five or six stamps apiece. They do not anticipate getting work for weeks, maybe months again.

So they are in a position where they cannot get a new UI claim going, so their choice is going to be visiting my friend with the pickle book over there, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Simms : Oh, the Minister of ~inance is getting up to speak. Mr. Hewlett: Well, they have a choice I suppose, they could leave, and be a part of the tribe going west instead of being a part of the tribe that the Premier said would be coming back east.

Sooner or later these people, for all the nights of the arguments on the Meech Lake event, I mean reality is already starting to strike home for those people and they are soon L35 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI going to have to go up to Springdale and apply at the Welfare office for money to pay their car bills, pay their light bill, which is going up as I said, pay their mortgages, whatever. And these are people who have worked all their lives. And through no fault of their own right now, they will either stay in rural Newfoundland on welfare or leave. Mr. Chairman : "or de r-:··-p l e a"s""e! Order, please! The han.

Member's time is up . Mr. Hewlett: I will get back to it tonight, Mr. Speaker, thank you . Mr. · Chairman : Before I l~ecogn"izE• the han. Member I just want to read the questions for the Late Show:

(1) I arn not salisfiE!d with the answer to my question to l:he Minister of EmployiTIE!nt and Labou1~ Relations concerning the Employment Generation Pt~ograrn the han. the Member For Grand Bank.

(2) I am not satisfied with the answer given to me by the Minister of EnvironmE!nL and Lands and would like to debate it on the late show - the han. Member for St. John's East Extern.

(3) I am not satisfied with thE! anstAJel~ given today by the Minister of Fisheries in his response to rny question on the commercial sc-11mon fishery - the han. Member for Fogo. Mr. Chairman: The han. the President of Treasury Board. Mr . Baker : Thank you, Min. Chairman . I want to slow this thing dot.un a bit now, we arr:~ going at such a fast pace. The Member for Green Bay, who t~.Jas No. 36 (AftE!I~noon) r~ 3 5

giving such a lively and enlivened speech and dealt with a lot of topics, some of them I intend to get back to in the few hours we have left in this particular debate. I would like to spend my limited time right now, Mr. Chairman, with regards to some questions that were as ked about Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services. That company is a private company owned by three shareholders, the President of Treasury Board, the Minister of Health and the Minister of Work, Services and Transportation. They do business for government, computer business.

There have been a number of changes - the Opposition House Leader is absolutely right - there have been some changes. He is aw~re of some of them, and perhaps not aware of some others. So I will simply go over the changes. As everybody knows, Mr. Harold Miller retired, and Mr. Kevin Murphy also retired. They both retired about the same time, and that left some vacancies. Mr. Hugh Grant was appointed President last September, and the position of Vice-President Systems Development has been filled by Mr. George Cole. Mr. Cole was formerly manager of Systems Development, and his position is currently vacant.

There was an amalgamation of positions, the Opposition House Leader will be glad to notice. An amalgamation of positions done following Mr. Murphy's retirement: the position of Vice-President of Finance and Administration was amalgamated with the position of Vice-President Consulting and Client Services to create a single position. That single position is held by Mr. Alvin Dredge and he L36 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI is, in fact, carrying out th' responsibilities of both prE!ViOU! positions.

So we see here, Mr Chairman, a consolidation o1 positions and an operation that i~ trimming itself down to bE!COrn' more efficient. There have been < number of other changes that rna~ not have been so obvious. The dati entry

section has been downsized from 17 to 5. That is significant downsizing. Mr. Simms : Why was that? Mr. Baker: The reason is th~ decreasing demand for data entry, and the beginning of that stage of their operation is becoming morE sophisticated. The data ented.w that would ordinarily be requi1nec in a lot of the things they do. has all been done. NolJJ its on1~ the regular data entering gain~ into the program. So thE downsizing is from 17 to 5. As a result of this downsizing thE position of Supervisor of Date Entry, the Opposition House Leader will be glad to know, has beer eliminated.

And the associatec duties and responsibilites of thal downsized department has beer amalgamated with the position of Supervisor of Production anc Control. Also, as a result of some staff assignments t.o cJ.i.ents, to a client location, the duti'"~ and responsibilities of the position of supervisor, microsupport and co-ordination, that supervisory position; and the position of application packagE support have been combined t:o one supervisory position.

So the former President of Treasury Boarc who himself was one of ·the! thrf:~e shareholders of that company, tJ,Jil1 be happy to I< now that the 1nc::~ havE been a lot of changes designed tc make the company more efficient since we have taken over. We havE No. 36 (Afternoon) R36

done a lot of work in that particular regard, a lot of changes in terms of streamlining and trimrni ng the organization, and a lot of changes that will result in a more efficient organization to provide a better service at cheaper cost to Government. Mr. Simms: Who are the other two shareholders besides yourself? Mr. Baker: There is the President of Treasury Board, and there is the Minister of Health, tAJho is a very active shareholder, and the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. So there are three shareholders . We have a very close association with that particular corporation. So, Mr.

Chairman, that answers- the questions posed about NLCS, in quite a bit of detail. There are some comments made by the Member for Green Bay that I feel, ·in the couple of minutes I have left, I should in all fairness respond to. Mr. Simms: (Inaudible) . Mr. Baker: He talked about the money that we are not going to save by getting rid of the Government cars. He made specific mention of that. I would simply like to say, Mr.

Chairman, that he is under the same illusion that the Opposition House Leader suffers from, suffers very seriously from, the same illusion or delusion, perhaps, is a better term - the same delusion that one of the editors of The Evening Telegram suffers from. An Hon. Member: Who? Mr. Baker : delusion . The same kind of a L37 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI Mr . Simms: You are got ng to attack everybody now, are you? Mr. Baker: No, I arn not trying to attack everybody, Mr. Chairman . I simply believe in telling the truth. It is as simple as that.

And the implications have been that in addition to a car allowance, and in addition to being provided gas for the cars, Minister will now gE!t their U.t"es paid for, and the repairs l~o t:.he cars paid for, and the insuranCE! paid for, and all kinds of maintenance donE!, and tAJiJ.l. gE!t th~:! labour on the cars paid for by Government and so on. Mr. Chairman, I must say that that is entirely, totally, 100 per cent wrong. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Baker: Now the Oppos i t:i .on House Leader says, nobody said it. An. hon. Member: insurance . I nE!Ver said Mr.

Baker: And that is a slippery way of .getting around it, many times he has indicated t.o Lhe press incorrectly that that, in fact, is the case. Many times he has indicated to the press people they talk to ITlE! I know. Many times he has indicated to press people that, in fact, we are going to get all these things . Now, Mr. Chairman, that simply is not right. If, in fact, thE!re were any doubt, I could undel"stand the Member raising the concerns, if, in fact, it t..o.Jere possible for this to be done I would expect Members to raise the concerns, I certainly would.

And I would expect them to ask the question : Is it going to be possible to do all these things and to pay for all these things? I expect them No. 36 (Afternoon) R37

to ask the question. But when they get the answer, Mr. Chairman, a truthful answer, I expect them to believe it. An Han. Member: Exactly, right on! Mr. Baker: And I think it is disgraceful and it is shameful, the deception they are going on with. And the Member for Green Bay was at it again today. He was at it again today, and the Member for Kilbride as we 11 - total and absolute deception, what they are saying is simply not true. Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Baker: Now, Mr. Chairman, what is going to happen is that in the very near future the whole Province is going to know the full story.

I find it disturbing - I spent four years in Opposition - Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. Member's time is up . Mr. Baker: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I later. will deal with it Mr. Chairman: The hon . the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for the detailed response to my question of a week ago, with respect to the operation of Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services. I remind him, of course, that it is not a company he referred to. He referred t9 it as a company, and it is not a company, it is a Crown corporation.

L38 May 17, 1990 Vol XLI He gave quite a good, detailed response to one of the questions I asked last week. A lot of the information, of course, dealt with matters I am fairly familiar with, having served on the board and served as a shareholder of Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services on behalf of the Government, a couple of years ago. So I thank him for that answer. Now, I only wish he could have responded to the other topic in as reasonable a fashion as hE! did on the question of Newfoundland and Labrador ComputE!r Sel~vices, but hE· got sidetracked on the Ministers' cars.

Now, the Membe1~ for Green Bay har-dly mentioned that in passing, but thE:~ PrE:~sident of Treasury Board wanted to raise it again. I don't know why he is raising it again; but in raising it, of course, he has again tried to take the approach to coVE!r up what has been blatantly pointed out as a mistake in judgement. That is what he has done. That is all he has done. And he is gotng to embarrass his colleagues, now· -· t~e other Ministers sitting there.

The Minister of Social Services is so bitten about this issue being raised again, he is going to be forced to get up now and lambaste me after I sit dolAm, and attack me. An Han. Member: do that. No, he would not Mr. Simms: Well, we will see what happens, but that is my guess. I may be misjudging the Minister and I may be totally wrong, but I am willing to bet he is going to take a crack at it. I am lAiilling to bet that. Maybe he won't. Maybe he lAlill answ.::~r my ear1ier question, which is of much more importance·, I guess, the one about the youth correctional services. No. 36 (Afternoon) R38

,_ With respect to the automobiles for Ministers - Mr. Efford: What about the purchases of the former Premier? Mr. Simms : Okay, talk about the purchases of the former Premier and all that stuff, but we are talking about this Government now. The President of Treasury Board said, first of all, that on this whole issue of automobiles for Ministers or car allowances fo1~ Ministc:1rs, that I, the Membel~ for Grand Falls, was wrong, that I had said many times - well, Mr.

Chairman, to begin with, I think I only spoke on the issue once, because I responded to his statement and I happened to get a serum. that evening with the press and I talked about it then, but I don't believe I have said another word about it, quite frankly. Personally, I do not think I have. I made my points then and ·whatever the points I made were.­ they were either accepted or not accepted. The public, the people, will judge. They are the ones who will make the final decision. An Han. Member: They have judged . Mr.

Simms: He said the Member for Green Bay was wrong, talking about car allowances and what he said about them. He said the Editor of the Evening Telegram was wrong; they are all wrong on their analysis of that particular issue. Everybody is wrong except the Minister, the spokesman for the Govel~nment, I suppose. Now I find that to be a bit of an unusual approach for the President of the Council to take.

Having answered my questions on NLCS in a very reasonable fashion, he then turns around and attacks everybody on this side of the House, the Editor of the Evening Telegram, L39 May 17. 1990 Uol XLI everybody, for being wrong in their analysis of the car allowance issue for Ministers. An Han. Member: They were. M r . Simms : We 11, t. hi s i s the whole point, and the Premier has just emphasized it. The matter was initiated by the Opposition House Leader simply because I tAJas the one who responded to his statement. He said I have said it many timc,1s, but that is not tr·uE!.

I have not talked about thE-~ issue befo1ne or .since that tirnE:1 myself, as a matter of fact. What the President of the Council said today kind of reminded rnE! of the old adage, he doth protest too much. He seems to be going on. An Han. Member: He is at it again . An Hon. Member: keep it up . Yes, and he t.tJill Mr. Simms: I am not at it again . I have not addressed the issue, other than the approach the Minister took today in trying to overcome the negative publicity they have received on this particular point by attacking us. An Hon. Member: (inaudible) embarrassing. Mr.

Simms: I have not said anything about the issue, I have just said the President of the Council reminds me of the old adage, he doth protest too much. He may encourage his colleague, the Minister of Social Services, to get up now and attack us, and the forme1~ Administration and all that kind of stuff, which is a11 fine and dandy, we have no problem t.tJith that. but do not lose sight of the trees. the issue we were talking about. No. 36 (Afternoon) IB9

Mr. Chairman, I also want to ask the President of Treasury Board, s:i.nce he got up and answered one question for me on the issue of Net.ufoundland and Labrador Computer Services, I also asked, and they are still outstanding, questions related to Newfoundland Information Services. He will recall I wanted to know why there was an increase in salaries? What did it cover? It was a large increase and obviously covers more than the percentage annual increase. It must be for positions. Why was there an increase in the transportation vote for Newfoundland Information Services?

I was not aware that Newfoundland Information Services did much travelling at all, quite frankly . Then, particularly I asked why the Purchased Services vote in Newfoundland Information Services had been doubled, to $120,000? What is that all about? and s om e s p e c if i c s ? .He did answer in a general way one day, but he promised to get me more information. He talked about brochures, I believe, or something or other. I asked what kind of brochures and what are they for? What are they planning to do? What are these brochures all about?

For $120,000 worth of brochures, I think we deserve a little more information. I asked him to give me an update on the Government House Renovation Program which has been in place for a couple of years, and I have not gotten a response to that question. I as ked why the President of Council 1 s budget was doubled - this was under Purchased Services again --why it doubled to $15,000 in addition to another $3,700 he has under Purchased Services as Pt~esident of Treasury Board? It doubled to $15,000, the President of the Council alone. Lll-0 May 1'7, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Matthews : That is shocking. Mr.

Simms: I want to know t.uha t i i is for. He said, I will have tc check into that. Not quite surE off the top of my head, I thin I was his response. He has had week to check into it. It is noi a big i tern, so I would hav( thought he would have been able t< provide that information. HE! als< promised me more information or Professional Services for thE Economic Research Division in thE Executive Council, a $216,00( expenditure. He also promised m~ mo