Manitoba Hansard — 29 April 1982 (Sitting 44A, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-44a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Presenting Petitions ... READING AND RECEIVING PE TITIONS MR. CLERK, Jack Reeves: The Petition of the Win nipeg Humane Society, Praying for the passing of

An Act to incorporate The Winnipeg Humane Society Foundation. PRESENTING RE PORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMM ITTEES MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. DON SCOTT (lnkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report on the Standing Commit tee on Economic Development. MR. CLERK, Jack Reeves: Your Standing Committee on Economic Development beg leave to present the following as their Second Report: Your Committee met on Thursday, April 29, 1982, to consider the Annual Reports of Moose Lake Loggers Ltd., Channel Area Loggers Ltd., and the Communi ties Economic Development Fund. Mr.

John Christensen, President and Chairman, Mr. R.J. Kivisto, General Manager and Mr. G.P. Trithart, Secretary-Treasurer of Moose Lake Loggers Ltd. and Channel Area Loggers Ltd., provided such informa tion as was required by members of the Committee with respect to the Companies. Information with respect to all matters pertaining to the operations of the Communities Economic Devel opment Fund was provided by Mr. James E. Good man, Chairman, and Mr. Hugh J. Jones, General Manager of the Fund. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all members of the Committee to seek any information desired.

The Annual Statements of Moose Lake Loggers Ltd., Channel Area Loggers Ltd., and the Communi ties Economic Development Fund, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1981, were adopted. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Wolseley that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINI STERI AL STATEME NTS AND TABLING OF REPO RTS MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Com munity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (B randon East): Mr.

Speaker, as members are aware, the Throne Speech provided for the establishment of a task force to exam ine the structure and policies of Manitoba's Provincial and Municipal Social Assistance Programs. I'm pleased to announce the task force has been appointed under the Chairmanship of Dr. Joe Ryant, Professor of the School of Social Work at the University of Manitoba. Other task force members are: Ms. Sheila Rogers, a Legal Aid Manitoba lawyer; Ms. Florence Flynn, direc tor of the Outreach Program of the Churchill Health Centre; Mr. Campbell Connor, an administrator at Brandon University; Ms.

Janet Spence-Fontaine, a Cree Indian author and a former member of the Wel fare Advisory Committee; and Mr. Ken Murdock, a senior planning associate with the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg. A detailed outline of the task force's terms of refer ence are attached to the copies of the statements for the information of members. I'm confident, Mr. Speaker, that the task force deliberations and report will be of considerable value to the government in updating the Social Assistance legislation which has not been changed since 1960. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON.

STERLING LYON (Charleswood): We would wish to thank the Minister for his brief announcement relative to the task force and to the terms of reference which he has appended to the announcement. One or two observations I think would be in order.

No. 1 - The major renewal or review of social assis tance in Manitoba, which he says is the first to take place since 1960, calls to mind of course that Mani toba did, in the period of the Roblin Government, pioneer the Social Assistance legislation in this prov ince which was the first of its kind in Canada, with the cost-sharing undertaken of course, by the Federal Government and that program through four different administrations, now into the fifth administration, I think has served its purpose quite well.

It is timely, of course, that a review should take place from time to time because any program should not remain immu table; any program should become and be suscepti ble to the changes that occur within the society that it is meant to serve. 19 84 A second comment about the membership of the task force without in any way impugning any of the members who have been appointed, many of whom are unknown to me.

I would suggest that there seems to be an overemphasis on people who are engaged in services to those who might be regarded as being on social assistance and I fail to see anyone amongst the group mentioned who would be representative of municipal governments who are responsible in many instances for the administration of social assistance. I fail to see anybody from the general business com munity who could bring some viewpoint that would be fresh, I'm sure, to the deliberations which this impor-

Thursday, 29 April, 1982 tan! task force will have to make and generally it seems to be rather an inbred group rather than an expansive group representing the total communi ty. I would hope that the Minister in perhaps reconsider ing the size of the task force might ensur e that there would be broader representa tion of the total citizenry of Man itoba rather than just those who happen to labour in this difficult field. MR. SPEAK ER: Notices of Motion ... In troduction of Bills IN TROD UC TION OF GU ESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honour able members to the gallery whe re we have 30 students of Grade IX sta nding from the Da uphin McK enzie Ju nior High School. Th ese stu dents are un der the direction of Mr. McCallum and the school is located in the consti tuenc y of the Honourable Member for Dau phin. There are also 25 students of Grade 5 stan ding of the Oak ville School under the direction of Mrs. Pat Williams. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Morris. Ther e are 23 stude nts of Grade IX stan ding of the Morden Collegiate School.

These student s are und er the direction of Mr. John Ei narson and the school is in the constituenc y of the Honour able Member for Pem bina. On behalf of all of the honour able member s I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Tux edo. MR. GARY FIL MON (Tuxedo): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister responsible for Housing. Mr.

Sp eaker, in view of the fact that the govern ment has now been in office for over five months and the expan sion of the Critical Home Repair Home Pro gram was annou nced over three months ago, I wonder if the Minister could indicate to us how much of the $3 million which the govern ment has allocated to the plan has now been paid out under the progr am? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Natural Resou rces. HON. AL MACKLING (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I kn ow tha t the department has been very busy in con nection with applic ations and works. I couldn't give the exact numb ers.

I'm happy to take that as notice. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, again in view of the fact tha t the govern ment has now been in office over five months and tha t some th ree months ago it announc ed the Emergency In terest Rate Relief Program, I wonder if the Minister could indicate just how much of the money allocated to the homeowners portion for the mortage interest rate relief has been spent to this point in time? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, similarly I believe there has been intense activity, but the actual numb ers I can not give. I will be happy again to take that ques tion as notice. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Stur geon Creek: MR. J. FRANK JOH NSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. In view of the fact the government has been in business for five months and, in view of the fact, the government said there wou ld be instant relief of high interest ratP.s for small business, can the Minister inform the House how much cash has flowed to small business through the Sm all Busine ss In terest Rate Relief Program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Eco nomic Develop ment HON. MURIEL SMITH (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I'm happ y to respond to the question. I don't have the actual amount of the mon ies that have flowed out, but I do, following on the first meeting of the Board, have a report of the numb er of projects that have been appr oved. Twenty-two items were on the agenda, Mr. Speaker, of which 14 were dealt with, 8 were appr oved, 5 were deferred and 1 was rejected. I can obtain the nu merical figure of dollars that have been appr oved for payment at a later date. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Arthur . MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Sp eaker, thr ough you to the Minister of Agriculture, I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture could indicate to the House how many farmers have received interest rate relief under their Emergency Int erest Rate Rel ief Pro gram that was pledged during the election campai gn? 19 85 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. BILL URUSKI (Interlake): Mr. Speaker. I can advise the honour able member, not in dollar terms but in num bers terms, th ere are appr oximately 200 appl ications that have been recommend ed for pro cessing from the field. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Arthur have a supp lementary? MR. DOWNEY: A supp lementary, maybe the Minister could furth er clarify, is that 200 people tha t have received assistance out of the 30,000 farmers in Mani toba, Mr. Speaker? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I can advise the honour able member th ere have been over 2,000 enquiries to the program. Appr ox imately 200 have already gone through the appl ication stage, have been processed and have been put forward to MACC for process ing for payment MR. DOWNEY: Has anyone received any sup port in actual cash dollars, Mr. Speaker?

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I believe some letters of acceptance have gone out, the exact numb er I don't know. I could take tha t as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hon our able Memb er for Emerson. MR. ALBER T DR IEDGER (Emerson): Tha nk you, Mr. Speaker, to the Minis ter of Agriculture. Im mediate relief was prom ised in the election by the Premier for the beef farmers.

In view of the Pr emier's promise tha t the Beef Assistance Program would not drag out for weeks or months and, in view of the fact, tha t the government has been in power for almost six months, could the Minister indicate how much money has been paid out for the relief of the beef farmers in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon our able Mini ster of Agriculture. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the memb er should read his statements and his material. Mr. Speaker, what was pledged tha t we would sit down immediately with prod ucers to discuss ways and means of assisting the lifestock industry.

The honourable member well knows and should well know tha t a program has been anno unced. There are now committees in the process of recommending details of the plan to the govern ment. At this point in time, obviously, the re has been no money paid out. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Memb er for Swan River. MR. DOU G GOUR LAY (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Municip al Affairs. In view of your government's stated policy initiative through the Main Street Manitoba Program, I wonder if the Minister can tell the Hous e how much money has flowed through tha t program to date. MR.

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Munici pal Affairs. HON. A.R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): The program is almost completed and ready to be an nounced within the next week and no funds have been disbursed. I would ask the honourable memb er when my Esti mates come up for review that he helps me get them thr ough as fast as possi ble so that we can get this program on the way. MR. SPE AKER: The Ho no ur able Memb er for Pemb ina. MR. DONALD ORC HAR D (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the First Minister.

In view of the fact that the First Minister has cited the $29.5 million interest-free loan to the credit unions as an econ omic initiative of his government, could the First Minister inform us as to how many new jobs have been created as a result of that economic initiative? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable the First Minister. HON. HOW ARD R. PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I say to the Member for Pembina, I susp ect it's helped in sustaining 1,200 jobs in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the First Minister.

In light of the fact tha t hard ly a day goes by without anot her bus iness declaring bank ruptcy in the province, and in view of the fact that unemployment is escalating rapidly, and in light of the fact that the First Minister made prom ises during the election to farmers, to small bus inesses, to ho meowners, to those who were unemployed, to those who were th reatened with un employment, will the First Minister advise the House when he's going to stop issuing press releases; when he's going to stop talking; when he's going to stop shuf fling paper and when he's going to take some action to fulfill the prom ises that were made and to deal with the econ omic situation tha t exists in this province?

MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable the First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, I'm glad to have the op portunity to speak to the very general question that the Member for Turtle Mountain has posed toward me. Mr.

Speaker, if the Honourable Memb er for Tur tle Mountain had been absorbing wha t has been said in the last few minutes in response to questions from honourable memb ers across the way, he would have noted indeed there has been definitive action that has been taken in regard to interest rate relief on behalf of the farmers, on behalf of the smal l busin ess comm un ity in the Province of Manitoba, on behalf of home owners in the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, th ere has been definitive action taken in the first four or five months, tha t it will indeed, it's true, cost Manit obans con siderable sums of monies, but monies that are geared in order to ensure that the existing eco nom ic structure in the Province of Manitoba is sus tained during this very very difficult time. Mr.

Speaker, contrast tha t to the total inaction that took place during the four preceeding years, an uncaring attitude, a remote attitude from the pub lic of the Province of Manitoba by the previous government and I must admit that I am somewhat puzzled by the audacity of members across the way to exp ress such righteous concern about what has or has not been done in the first four or five months. Mr.

Sp eaker, fur thermore, in view of the question by the Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain, I sense that he will be pleased to join with us in sup porting the resolution that is being debated at the present time by the Hon ourable Memb er for Thom pson, that so well places th e respon sibility where the respon sibility belongs, the responsi bility that belongs insofar as those that maintain Reagano mic policies, Conserva tive fiscal policies thr oughout Canada. Mr.

Speaker, Canadians are fed up with those fiscal policies; Cana dians are demonstrating their op position to those 19 86 kind of fiscal policies. ·

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the promises made by the First Minister and his Party during the election last November are well-known. There were prom ises to farmers tha t no farm would be lost; to businesses that no business wou ld be lost; to homeowners that no home would be lost as a cons equenc e of high interest rates. In view of the fact tha t that government has been in power for over five months and they can not assure us tha t one nick el has been paid out to deal with the emergency situation which they said existed last October and No vember, Mr.

Speaker - in view of the fact that he now blames the Reagan economics on the problems, the First Minister last December said that we are facing in the immediate term, hard ec onomic times. The Fe0eral Government is responsi ble for dealing with this overall, so we will be developing an economic position in relation to the Federal Govern ment. Having said that, we will not sit back as a prov ince and say there is little we can do. MR. SPEAKER: The honour able member 's one sentence

preamble does seem to be of considerable length. I was also having some difficulty in hearing the honour able memb er's question, ii he has comp leted it. The Honour able First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, I would turn to you to ask whether or not I respond to a statement I'm quite happ y to do so and I would like to but am I, inde ed, breachin g the Ru les of the House, Sir, as, indeed, the questioner has already done? MR. SPE AKER: Because of the nois e in the Chamber I have difficulty in deciding whether the honour able member had completed his question. The Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I simply would like to comple te the

preamble to my question and when I was interrupted, Sir, I was quoting as pream ble the statement made by the First Minister last December 11, when he said: "But having said that we will not sit back as a province and say that th ere is little we can do." In view of the promises and in view of the fact that he's prepared to take action, when will he implement his strategy for economic recovery? When will the y being the payouts of money? When can Manitobans expect some relief and some action from this government? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would think I would have equal time or more, by way of response to the statement by the Memb er for Turtle Moun tain. Mr. Sp eaker, I would, indeed, remind you that it is not the members on this side of the House tha t supp orted high interest rate policies. It was not, indeed, the Min ister of Finance tha t sits on this side of the House that defended the Ottawa -inspired high interest rate poli cies last May in this Legislature. Mr.

Sp eaker, it was the previous Minister of Finance, the Memb er for Tur tle Mountain that now sits in this Ch amber that told us that there was no alternative to the monetary policies that were being pursued by the Federal Govern ment in Ottawa. Let me refresh, Mr. Sp eaker, the memory of the Honour able Memb er for Turtle Moun tain. So, Mr. Speaker, let us first deal with basics; first the mone tary policies that have been misguided and misplaced and have been pursued since 19 75 in Canada must, indeed, come to an end if we're to enjo y the ecnomic recovery that Canad ians deserve. Second ly, Mr.

Speaker, I heard the honour able memb er talk about this government not doing anyth ing. Mr. Sp eaker, I looked at the honour able members across the way as they were posing questions to the Minister of Eco nomic Development, the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Housing, and as they posed tho se questions they had some sort of glee in their eyes. That glee turned to disappoi ntment, Mr.

Sp eaker, whe n they discovered that, indeed, this governme nt's Ministers were indicating to the members across the way in concrete figures, in concr ete numb ers, that this governme nt is providing interest rate relief to hundr eds of farmers, hundr eds of business people and hundr eds of homeowners in the Province of Man itoba. Mr. Sp eaker, I kn ow that information which the honour able memb ers across the way did no t expect this afternoon bothers them. I can sense that they are quite disturb ed, Mr.

Sp eaker, and they ought to be disturbed after four years of neglect in the Province of Man itoba to now see a govern ment that is, indeed, performing. 19 87 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opp osition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, coming as I do from a school of parliamentary debate which believes fer vently that raising on e's voice does not mean one is answe ring the question, may I quietly reiterate the question to the First Minister and ask that he settle himself down and really not scream and rant and rave, and keep his feathers dry, and so on.

Would he mind telling the house and the people of Man itoba about this great economic program that he prom ised to the people of Man itoba in his election campai gn prom ises last year on which we have seen not one whit of movement in terms of getting money into the hands of people who need it while people are going ban krup t day by day. Jobs are being lost by the hundr eds day by day while this govern ment sits and fiddles and fusses about Saskatchewan elections. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Sp eaker, I didn't kn ow I made any reference to the Saskatchewan election; obviously, it's very much on the mind of the Leader of the Op po sition. I kn ow it's the first bit of good news that the Leader of the Op position has had in five months and I understand, indeed, why that to be the case, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Sp eaker, I' m not going to carry on a rather fruitless debate because what is demonstr ated best is action and deeds. Wha t Man itobans, indeed, Mr.

Speaker, are witnessing is a government tha t is under tak ing concr ete economic measures, whether it be interest rate relief, whether it be other programs; pro grams to assist and ensur e tha t the economic base of this province is maintained. Mr. Speaker, it is a diffi-

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 cult role but I'm pleased to report that Manitob ans as a whole sup port the efforts that are being undertaken by this government. It is made more difficult by the fact that we've had four years of neglect by the pre vious administration; we have monetary policies that are in need for change at the federal level, but despite th is, unlike the previous government in the Province of Man itoba we are indicating, Mr.

Sp eaker, it's not adequate to do nothing , we must carry on in our limited way to un dertake tho se actions within the pro vincial context that can best help men and women and families that are the hardest hit by the present eco nomic direction that is tak ing place in Canada. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a very simple question fol lowing up on my honour able friends's pronounce ments about his feeling of great su ppor t on behalf of the people of Man itoba: if he is so confident of tha t would he consider calling an election tomorrow? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Sp eaker, Man itobans would prop erly condemn a govern ment that calls an election five months after receiving a man date because, Mr. Speaker, what Man itobans are looking for . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. MR. PAWLEY: ... wha t Man itobans are looking for is a responsible govern ment that will carry out its man date of five years, that will un dertake to fulfil! the commitments that it made during that five-year period so that, Mr. Speaker, Man itobans will be able to judge that govern ment on the basis of what it has done during a five-year period. Mr.

Speaker, they will ju dge us on the same bas is the y ju dged the Conser vatives on November 17 . They will ju dge either to sup port us or to defeat us on the basis of how we perfo rmed during our term in office. Mr. Sp eaker, my intent and the intent of all my colleagues is to measure up to the task much better during our five-year term -(I nter jection)- yes, we may go in four years, Mr. Sp eaker, five years. But it is our intent to live up to our respon sibilities so we win re-election, because I do not intend to be the second governme nt that has been defeated after one term in govern ment since 1913 .

We don't intend to follow the record of the previous administration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for La Verendrye. MR. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Sp eaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Labo ur and would ask him if he could confirm tha t his statements tha t the Youth Emp loyment Program which he annou nced several weeks ago will create appr oxi mately 2,000 jo bs and cost roughly $3 million? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Labo ur. HON. VIC SCHR OEDER (Rossmere): Yes, I believe that is appr oximately correct. I don 't have a copy of the state ment with me.

I made the statement to the House: the member has access to Hansard. I'm sure he could very easily find the statement that I made and he would get an exact numb er. If he expects that I'm going to keep all of th ose numb ers sp ecifically at my fingertips at all times, I trust tha t he should realize tha t would be somewha t difficult to do. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker, to the same Minister.

Having assured us that those are the figures that he has been quoting, I wonder if he could inform the House whether or not in the month of March there were some 17 ,000 Man itobans unempl oyed and those Man itobans were between the ages of 15 and 24? MR. SCHR OEDER: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, I don't have the unemplo yment statistics in front of me so, I'll take the question as notice. MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in light of the fact tha t many university students and student s and people that are unemp loyed are look ing for sum mer jo bs, and in light of the fact that his depar tment in their Ann ual Report indicated tha t last year's Student Emplo yment Program employed some 5,000 students for a total cost of $2.9 million, and his program's going to emplo y 2,000 students for the same type of money, would he inform the House as to why the almost two-and-a-half times increased cost in producing one job and why th ere is going to be a reduction of 3,000 student jo bs created un der his program for the same kind of money as the previous govern ment put into it?

MR. SCHR OEDER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't accept the numb ers that the memb er gave me without check ing them with my department but I should say that the program that we are entering into is a different type of program altogether, numb er one. Numb er two, as the memb er probably kn ows the re was an inpu t-output study done by the Department of Labo ur for last year's numb ers which came back with the conclusion that there was no evidence tha t tho se numb ers of job s they said were created were, in fact, created as a result of the program that they are numb ering.

Tha t is, most of tho se jobs would have been th ere; in fact, the re was no evidence to indicate that all of them would not have been th ere without that very program. MR. BAN MAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the figures which I quote come out of the depart ment that he is responsi ble for -out of their Ann ual Repor t -in which they state tha t the numb ers of emp loyees hired in '81 was 5,009 emp loyees.

I would ask the Minister with regards to that particular program if he could inform the House since many business people and many stu dents are now look ing at their job opportun ities and job open ings for the coming season, I wonder if he could give us a definite date today when the appl ica tion forms and the guidelines will be released because if that doesn't ha ppen very sho rtly the stude nts who are coming out will not be able to apply for these job s? An emp loyer does not decide overn ight whether that job is required or not.

I'd like to ask the Minister to give us a date when this will happen. 19 88 MR. SCHR OEDER: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the date of the appl ication coming out, I believe the memb er has a very good point. It should be done quickly. I had hoped it would be ready yesterday and it may be that it will be ready today and certainly, if it is

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 we will be moving ahead. I should say tha t there have been a large numb er of enquiries. Ther e is no doubt tha t the conc ern raised yesterday from members oppo site that there wouldn't be take-up is not going to be a problem. There's plenty of people out there who are very anxious to get into the program. I should also mention - although my department is working on a fuller answer to a question asked, I believe, by the Memb er for St.

No r bert with respect to the numb er of emp loyers last year who had less than 10 empl oyees - the answer to that question is that about 87 percent of the stude nts hired last year were hired by emp loyers who had less than 1 O employees. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Member for St. Norb ert. MR. G.W.J. (Gerry) MERCIER (St. Norbert): Mr. Sp eaker, my question is to the First Minister. In view, Mr.

Speaker, of his stated desire to achieve co operative federalism, and in view of the fact that apparently the Federal Minister of Immigr ation wrote to the Provincial Govern ment this past Febru ary seek ing the involvement of the Provincial Governme nt in a temporary employmen t program for laid-off workers, and in view of the fact th at the hundr eds of workers at Man For are due to lose their jo bs or be laid off within a very sh ort period of time, could the First Minister endeavour to get the two Ministers involved, the federal-provincal Ministers to set aside their differen ces and cause some action to be taken to provide some suppor t for the workers at Man For?

MR. SPE AKER: The Hono urable First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the honour able member in his overeagerness to interpret is off base again. I would ask the Honour able Member for En ergy tha t's been dealing with this particular su bject with the workers in The Pas, Mr. Speaker, to deal with the question. MR. SPE AKER: The Hono urable Minister of Ener gy and Mines. HON. WILSON PAR ASIUK (Transcona): I'd be delighted.

The Provincial Governme nt did receive some informa tion in Feb ruary indicating tha t a feder al-pro vinci al agreement had been signed between On tario and the Federal Govern ment, and we then respond ed by saying that rather than raise a whole set of false expecta tions by signing general agreements and not having any projects come for ward as had happ ened in the past if you can recall, Mr.

Speaker, the previous govern ment used to recycle its press releases over and over and over again about the certain joint agreements that had n't, in fact, led to any particular projects, we decided we'd take the approach of working out specific con crete projects which is what we are doing. In fact, Mr. Sp eaker, there is a proposal for Moose Lake Loggers before the Treasury Board apparatus right now. It is being processed, Mr.

Sp eaker. and I would expect that if it does go through and the negotiations and discussions with the workers lead to them accept ing that particular program pro- ject, tha t there could be a specific project und er way which I think probably would take up more people than have taken up the program in entirety in On tario to date. We also raised the whole concept of this sup posed program with the workers at ManFor through the Man power Advisory Comm ittee, and th ere were detailed discus sions held when the mana gement and workers and government people were looking at all the options, and at that stage, Mr.

Speaker, the workers the mselves said that the program as pro posed by the Federal Government , gave them some very grave conc erns as it applied to people who would be laid off at the saw mill because wha t it forced them to do, was to go out into the woods for, I think, an extra $60 or $80 above their UIC. They had to live away from hom e; they had to then buy clothi ng, boots, etc. and they had expressed con cern at tha t time, Mr. Speaker, but they are laid off. Their perspective on this may change . These projects are developed through a process of consu ltation.

To date, the people at The Pas have said that they would hop e to try and improve the prog ram or get a better type of program. We are working with them, Mr. Speaker, to see if we can develop any particular pro ject pos sibilities in this respect. We hope we can because our intention in this regard is to try and keep the people the re, employed and staying in The Pas as long as po ssible and we're dealing with the problem, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the question was not answered by th e First Minister.

I have a suppl e mentary question to him. In view of the fact that in March of this year city statistics sho w that building perm its have declined 62 percent from March, 19 81 , and one of the sign ificant reasons cited by the president of the Man itoba Home Builders Association is interest rates; and in view of the fact that the Premier in his election document, signed by him and guaranteed by him, promised to take steps to relieve the interest burden facing fami lies buying a home - not only renewing a mortgage buying a home, Mr.

Speaker, is the First Minister prepared to take any steps to amend his Int erest Rate Rel ief Program to provide assistance to home buy ers, not only to help them to buy a ho me, Mr. Sp eaker, to renew some ho pe in you ng people to buy a home, but to provide some work for construc tion workers in the home building industry? 19 89 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me this is a recycling of some earlier questions but I'm quite pleased, in fact I'm delighted, to have the opp ortunity to deal with same su bject matter again.

Firstly, the honour able memb er has made some reference to not answ ering his qu estion. I think the Minister of Ener gy did an excellent job of answe ring his question, that's why he's a bit sore. Mr. Speaker, I invite the Honour able Memb er for St. Norb ert to join with us then, if he has such concern

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 abou t the interest rates and what the interest rates are doing insofar as young couples are concerned, pur cha sing ho mes. I would be delighted to see the Hon ourable Member for St. No rbert and the Honour able Memb er for Pembi na, the Honour able Member for Morris, the Leader of the Op position join with us, Mr. Sp eaker, and for onc e take exception to the monetary policies tha t have been pursued in Ottawa since 19 75. I invite the Honour able Memb er for St.

Norber t to jo in with us in suppo rting the resolution by the Member for Thomp son, calling for a reduction in interest rates, oppo sing high interest rates. I invite all members, Mr. Sp eaker, in this Chamb er to join together un anim ously in placing responsibility wh ere responsibi lity belongs for high interest rates in Canada. Mr. Sp eaker, what I do say and I don't apolog ize, Mr.

Sp eaker - I find tha t indeed Man itobans accept, and we speak to Man itobans as a whole, that Man ito bans as a whole appr eciate the fact that this is a govern ment tha t is trying to do some thing within its limited financ es, limited jurisdictions, by way of the In terest Rate Relief Program. Mr. Sp eaker, we would have been able to do more if indeed we had been fortuna te as Premier-elect Devine is in the Province of Saskatchewan and if the previous administration in the Province of Man itoba had left us with a balanc ed budget, ha d left us with a $1 billi on Heritage Fund, we would be able to do more.

Yes, we would be able to do more. Mr. Sp eaker, to satisfy the repeated demands that we hear day after day by honour able members across the way as kin g us why we don't spend scores of mil lions of dollars more, we can't spend scores of mil lions of dollars more . MR. SPEAK ER: Or der please. Or der please. The Honour able the First Minister. MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, if I could proceed.

We can't spend scores of millions of dollars more because we took office, desp ite the demands by honour able members across the way tha t we do so, because we have inherited a cupb oard which has been left bare by a negligent previous admin istration in Manitoba. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr.

Sp eaker, in view of the fact that the Leader of the Op position, when he signed this statement last fal l, was in possess ion of fully up-to date material about the economic situation in Mani toba, and th erefore can't compar e the situation in Manitoba to any other province or govern ment; in view of the fact that he was fully aware of that informa tion and can't use that as an excuse, Mr. Sp eaker; in view of the fact th ere's no mention of Re aga nomics or any other government program, this is a clear prom ise to provide relief to home buyers buying a hom e, relief interest for people buying a home.

This question hasn't been asked before. The construc tion industry is plum meting. People are out of work in that industry. Young people no longer have an oppor tunity to buy a home. This is his promise. Is he not going to live up to it or is he going to be like the Minister of Labou r who said yesterday in Estimates on the Comm ittee of Labour, that their promise to provide job security to people as a result of sh utdowns or layoffs is not a priority? Is it the same way with the First Minister? Is this not a priority for him? MR. SPE AKER: The Honour able the First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Sp eaker, I ask you indeed whether tha t was a question or a state ment. I wou ld ask for a ruling from you prior to my entering into an answer. I'm prepar ed to an swer but was that a question? MR. SPEAK ER: Or der please. The question was of some length but I do believe there was a question buried in there somewhere. MR. PAWLEY: I wasn't able to hear for the noise across the way but I'm anxious, Mr. Speaker then to provide a state ment by response to the rather inaccu rate commen tary by the Member for St. No rbert. Mr. Sp eaker, the Honour able Memb er for St.

No r bert said something about being aware of the eco nomic situation in the Province of Manit oba in November of 19 81 . I would mention to the Honour able Memb er for St. Nor bert and to the Leader of the Op position tha t it is rather interesting that there were commitments that were made by the previous admin istration in the final week , two weeks of the campaign tha t would have totalled between $275 million to $300 million of expen diture for the Province of Man itoba, in contr ast to comm itments tha t were made by the party tha t I represent, which were much much less, in fact, Mr.

Speaker, tha t represent only 3 percent of the exp enditures in this year's Budget. Mr. Speaker, I wonder how the honour able members across the way would have honour ed the commit ment that they gave to the public of Manitoba to spend between $275 million and $300 million of the pub lic taxpayers' monies if they had been re-elected in November 17 th of last year. Mr. Sp eaker, I'm quite confident and I kno w my colleagues are quite confident, tha t Man itobans understand very well the situation the new govern ment is confronted with.

They are quite conscious of the fact tha t we have inherited an empty cupb oard. They are quite cons cious of the fact that this province, as well as other provinces in Canada, is confr onted with economic difficulties and I sense amongst Man itobans, a desire to join togeth er, to work together to overcome these problems, rather than a lot of con tin ued nit-picking that ap pears to be the case from time to time from honour able memb ers across the way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Minister of Health. 19 90 HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Yes, Mr. Speaker.

My colleague, the Minister resonsible for Envir on mental Management and myself, have heard from our Deputy Ministers and I'm sorry to say that the news from Grandview is not as good as we'd like it to be. App arently this morning, six children were sick, compl ain ing of stomach cramp s and are a little flush. They were taken to the Grand view Hospital where fou r of them were released and two are still being checked over by the local phy sician, a Dr. Car lton. Dr. Carlton will be in touch with our part-time Medical

Thursday, 29 AprU, 19 82 Officer, Dr. Sigurdson, and we'll hear what the latest is. It could be just a coincidence. The flu is sus pected at this time, but because of the situation tha t has been happen ing, we're still mon itoring that. The two departments are staying very close. There is a man there monitoring the air but so far nothing has been discovered and if th ere's any thing new, I certainly will inform the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Memb er for Robli n-Russell. MR. J. WALLY McKE NZIE (R oblin-Russel l): Mr. Sp eaker, I thank the Honour able Minister for his note.

I'm satisfied th <..t the best staff that we have in this province with his department and the environmental people are on the site and I hop e, at the earliest possi ble date, that the problem can be cleared up. Thank you kind ly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, I'd like to respond to two questions I took as notice by the Honou rable Memb er for La Verendrye and the Honour able Memb er for Morris, rhis past week in con nection with school taxes in the two constituenc ies involved. Mr.

Speaker, I have received information I would now like to relate to the two memb ers and to the House as a whole pertaining to those questions. In respect to the Morris-MacDonald School Div ision, there can be few better examp les that can better illustrate the weakn esses and inadequacies of the Educa tion Sup port Program that was passed last year by the previous admin istration in Man itoba. In the first year of tha t program, Morris-MacDonald School Division had a deficit of almost $50,000.00.

This year, enrollment has decreased by 5.1 percent which means an increase of only 9.6 percent in oper ating money under the Education Supp ort Program. Th ere can be no clear evidence of why this party, Mr. Sp eaker, no better evidence of why this party responded to the patched, put-together-hastily pro gram, tha t the former adminis tration put together last year by annou ncement of a one-year review of the education finan ces system in the Province of Mani toba. It's a patc hed-up sys tem, hastily put together.

Maybe you could it a scrap book, glued-together kind of ap proac h rather than any comprehens ive, well thoug ht-out program, Mr. Speaker. -(l nterjection)- 1 regret if the honour able members don't like the information. The facts are facts. Honourable members may not like the facts but the facts are here. The situation in the Town of St einb ach -(I nterjection)- MR. SPE AKER: Or der please. The Honour able Minis ter of Health on a point of order. POIN T OF ORDER MR. DESJARDINS: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think you must ha ve heard it as well as any body else.

When the Leader of the Oppo sition called the Premier of this Province a liar, and he's challanged; if tha t's parliamen tary he says: "No, but it's true," I think tha t it's high time that something would be done and I would urge you to act. Th ere's a limited use of control in the House. MR. SPEAKER: I would thank the Honour able Minis ter of Health for bringing that to my attention, although I did not hear the remark. The Honour able Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, these words were certainly stated and the memb ers certainly heard it and I think that this should be withdrawn. MR.

SPEA KER: The Honour able Memb er for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think exchan ges that take place between two members from their seat are hardly questions for points of order in the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Sp eaker, this is certainly not an excuse. It's quite obvious and it's clear tha t you don't call people "liars" in this House and get away with it. Tha t was yelled at; it's not the first time. It's being done nearly every day and then, especially this time, he was chal langed and asked if that was parlia mentary.

He adm itted, "No, but it's true," and I think it's time that something sho uld be done or, Mr. Speaker, if you don't do something you'r e going to lose comp lete control of this House. 19 91 MR. SPEAKER: I hop e the last commen t was not meant as a th reat from the Honour able Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the last comme nt is someth ing tha t I believe, I've seen it happen. If some thing isn't done, if people are allowed to act like anim als or without respect, tha t's exactly wha t happ ened. It's not a threat, it will be a fact. MR. SPEAKER: Orde r please.

If the remark com plained of was, in fact, made by the honour able memb er and was clearly heard by other members of the House. I believe the honour ab le member has a duty to the House to make a withdrawal of the fact. MR. LYON: Qu ite so, Mr. Speaker. The use of the word, lie or liar, is unp arliamentary and I withdraw it without hesitation.

I merely say to you, Sir, on the record, that the statement s being made by the First Minister with respect to the previous Education Finance Program being patched together and other statements of that sort which impugn the Civil Service, and which were not true, were statements tha t do not deserve the time of this House. His statements and the truth do not coincide in that respect. MR. SPEAK ER: I thank the honour able member for those remarks. The time rapidly running out for Oral Question period, the Honour able First Minister.

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 MR. PAWLEY: To complete the answers? Mr. Speaker, I'm afra id I can' t get clear indication. Mr. Sp eaker, the situation in the town of Ste inbach which was one of enrollment tha t had not increased or decreased, the Education Supp ort Program ap proved by the Cab inet to which the Honour able Memb er of La Verendrye belonged, would ha ve provided an increase of 12 .6 percent operating su pport for that particular school division.

The suppleme ntary suppor t provided by the Govern ment of the Province of Man itoba provided an additional $274,275 beyond that which would ha ve otherwise been prov ided. This represents a 10 .8 mill decrease for the division as a who le, altho ugh, I should point out and note that the difference between balanc ed assess ment and actual assessment causes a subs tantial difference in mill rates among the var ious municipalitites in the school division affected.

Wha t is clear, however, is that the program which is introduced by the Honour able Mem ber for La Veren drye and his colleagues would have resulted in a much highe r special levy in the town of Steinbach than the one he is now talk ing abou t. Here, as in every other school division in the province, this government has acted responsibly to deal with the prop erty tax burden. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The time for Oral Question period having expired, the Honour able Govern ment House Leader. ORDERS OF THE DAY ADJ OUR NED DEB ATE - CRO W RATE HON. RO LAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, would you please call the adjourne d debate on the proposed motion of the Honour able Minister of Transport stan ding in the name of the Member for The Pas? MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. On the proposed reso lution of the Honour able Minister of Govern ment Ser vices, the Honour able Memb er for The Pas. MR. HARRY M. HARAPIAK (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, before I begin with my remarks I would like to say a few words about yesterday's commen ts. I guess we were doubly blessed tha t we found out what the posi tions of the Offi cial Op position was. They claim ours is a do-nothing position.

I believe theirs is a do noth ing posit ion. I guess they're happ y with the results of the Saskatchewan election so they have given blessing s to another ag rep, but he ha s been chosen as their official spoke sman, or official Leader for this issue as well. I am surpr ised tha t an agricultu ral econom ist like himself wouldn't have looked across the border before he made his state ments and found that once the rail road rates were allowed to increase in the States the grain still did not move.

It did not improve at all and I'm su rprised he wouldn't have looked across there before he found out - if he fig ures tha t's all it hinges on that if the Crow disappears, then the gr ain will be moving and we'll still be left with as big an inventory as we presently are. Mr. Sp eaker, I'm going to be spe aking on this sub ject, it's a.very important subject and I'm going to be speak ing with a great deal of mixed emotions because I am a railroader and I recognize the railroads require large amounts of money to upgrade their rail beds and also to maintain their equipment.

But I also recogn ize that increased production would give many of my brothers who are out of work at this time job s because tha t sector of the industry is affected by the downturn economy as well as many of the other industries are. I also speak as a person who was born and raised on a farm and I presently own half a sect ion of land. I kn ow the honour able members across the way believe the only one that can speak for the agricultural com munity is someone that's involved in the tilling of the land or pos sibly their heart's on the side of their chest.

But I want to assure the m that there are probably more mem bers on this side of the House who recog nize tha t agriculture is still the back bone of our econ omy and our hearts, although on the left wh ere they're sup posed to be, we are firmly su ppor ting the fam ily farm and supp orting the agricultural community. Mr. Sp eaker, western Canada is un ique in its depende nce on rail transpor tation. In the U. S. there are vast inland waterways maintained at public expense which prov ide a keen comp etition for the highw ays and the railways in America. Eastern Can ada has the St.

Lawrence Seaway, again maintained at public expense, which provides an alternative and, more importantly, it provides comp etition for the rail ways. Eastern Canada is too far removed from our problem that their politicians canno t understand our problem in order to un derstand the real issue of the Crow.

In 19 76, Canada West Fou ndation, a non-partisan research organization, whose main objectives were to initiate and conduc t a research program regarding the economic and social characteristics and poten tials of the west and the north; and a second was to initiate and conduc t informational educational pro grams to encou rage and appr eciate our Canad a-West heritage and a future within Canada. It is interesting to note that Dr. Gilson was , the same Dr . Gilson who's commissioned by Mr. Pepin to study the effects of the removal of the Crow rate, was a part of that commit tee.

He was one of the eight people assigned to that task force. In the report, they go over again about the need for a good railroad transpor tation system for gr ain movement because of our un ique depend ence on land transpor tation. 19 92 They point out that in the 19 70s prairie farmers were not able to take full advantage of the strong market for grain. The record shi pmen t of two and a half million bushels or two and a half million ton nes in 19 72/73 ha s not been equaled since, mainly because the rail ways have not been able to meet the delivery deman ds.

It is generally agreed that railroads hesitate to invest in rolling stock because of the low returns for moving grain. The govern ment has recogn ized the railways problems and have purcha sed 8,000 cars; the y are presently leasing 2,000 and they have also shar ed the cost of repairing several thousand cars. The Cana dian Wheat Board has purchased 2,000 cars and the Province of Alberta and Saskatchewan have also pur chased 1, 000 cars. Man itoba made a cont ribution by leasing 650 cars. This year there should be 14 ,000 cars in gr ain service.

However, by 19 85-86 th ere'll be at least a requirement of 10 ,000 more cars to move the

grain tha t is projected to be here in tha t year. The CPR has refused the estimated $500-million investment tha t is necessary un less they receive adequate pay for moving their grain. I believe tha t the railroads entered into a legitimate agreement and have a responsibility to provide the service tha t is necessar y to move the gr ain in the prairie provinces.

In Manitoba, if the railroads are given the right to set the preferential rate, there are areas like Swan River who, if there's a preferential rate given to Swan River that' ll bethe beginning of the end for the communi ty surrounding Swan River -(I nter jection)- tha t's right. Swan would do a best for a shor t period of time because Ben ito and Minitona s and tho se small commun ities would be killed off because the people would drive to Swan River. Even tually, Dauphin would be given a preferential rate; the n Swan River would die off as well.

I think that our rural popula tion is too important a part of this prov ince to be killed in that way. The recent report which stated that Manitoba's gross agricultural product would decrease this year by 16 percent; Saskatchewan's would decrease by 22 percent. Can the farmers afford this loss? If this is compound ed by the removal of the Crow rate, I'm sure that many of your friends and my friends would be jo ining the ranks of the ban krup t. There are people who say there' ll be a great advantage aimed in the area of oil seed and liv estock production.

I have not seen any figures which farmers could use or was shown to gain anywhere near the loss they wou ld have if the Crow didn't come. It is interesting to note that in the conclusion of the task force of which Mr. Gilson was a part, the y reached two basic conclusio ns. The first was, as a result of the Crowsne st Agreement the transpor t of grain to ports is hea vily subsid ized. It is a large part of the railroad companie s. As a result of inflation, rates which until 19 60 covered all or nearly all of the cost of transporting grain, by 19 90 may cover less than 15 percent of the costs.

These rates will be the sorting the grain-animal industry mix and disadvantage some grain-processing industries in Western Canada . The second one was that the nature of Canada 's present rail road system forces grain producers into a captive market. It cannot be claimed with any confi dence wha tsoever tha t the removal of the statutor y rate would prov ide grain produc ers with either ade quate movement to a port or transportation rates tha t are equitable.

The task force recommends tha t a Crown corpora tion be esta blished; tha t we own the infrastructure of the two major railroad companie s including the railroad beds and yards lying west of Thund er Bay. The corpor ation would be empowered to operate and maintain the facilities and to grant licenses to compan ies to operate on their specific terms. Tha t's Gilson's recommenda tions. Mr. Sp eaker, it is recognized that Mr. Gilson ha s an impossible task. We kn ow tha t Mr. Pep in is willing to put a limited numb er of dollars into the transportation stabilization.

We also accept tha t inflation will go up by at least 10 percent. Some projects say that inflation will go up as high as 15 . So, the railroads are faced with the costs along with a legitimate responsi bility of providing the service. The govern ment is faced with the sacr ed res pon sibility of pr otect ing the 19 93 19 82 grain producers. So, that is why the suggestion of the Honour able Memb er for River East made on the 21s t of April - if the honour able memb er said we weren't making any responsible suggestions, I wish he wou ld ha ve lis tened - the honour able member made the sugges tion.

He recognized two types of resources, grain, which is not in a position to set its rates; the Wheat Pool can negotiate a couple of cents per bushel. But, the n they must take whatever the world market will allow. Then, there are the other set of resource produ cers: the c0al, the potash and the sulphur producers who are in a position to set the i r prices. This type of sub sidization could take us out of our dilemma. This type of cost subsidiz ation would work in this situa tion.

When the Member for Morris proclaims we did not make any positive recommendation I would ch al lenge him to read the Hansard of the 21s t of April and see who ha s had the more positive input, him or the Member for River East. I realize, Mr. Sp eaker, tha t Alberta and Saskatchewan get most of the benefits if the Crow is removed, because of the increased con struction tha t would take place. But, I also realize that Alberta wou ld be faced with most of the cost because they would have to build between 80 and 10 0 over passes and und erpasses across their highw ays.

I also realize tha t as a norther n representative there might be a great advantage to the Port of Ch urchill; th ere fore, it would be a great increase to the rail business to many of my constitue nts. The Pas at one time was an active railroad centre but now it has decreased to a very low point. I also worry tha t the Federal Govern ment nor the CNR are willing to spend any dollars to upgr ade the rail bed in No rthern Manitoba.

So, I believe that maybe the part of the Man itoba contribution could be the man ufacturing of a low centre of gravity car which could be hand led on the northern route and could also be built in the plant at The Pas, the Man For Plant, and it would create a great amount of employment at this time. The ManF or Plant has the necessary equipment to manuf acture these cars at this time. It should also be noted tha t Dome Petroleum at this time is building a class 6 icebreaker which would mak e the Port of Ch urchill pos sibly viable to be used as a port all year round.

So, again, this would mak e it more profita ble. Mr. Speaker, the re may be some benefits to some Man itobans if the Crow is abolished, but there are many people who feel tha t the west has always been at the shor t end of any agreement that we have entered into and they are saying that this may be the straw tha t breaks the camel's back if the Crow rate is abolished. So again I say, Mr. Sp eaker, I urge the members on the other side to stand up and join us and as Canadi ans to fight and stop the Crow from being abolished. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Virden. MR.

HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Memb er for Niak wa tha t debate be adj ourned. MOTION presented and carried.

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Acting Go vern ment House Leader. MR. URUSK I: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Minister of Natural Resou rces tha t Mr. Sp eaker do now leave the Chair and the resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Su pply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Flin Flon. MATTER OF GR IE VANCE MR. JERRY T. STORIE (Flin Flon): Mr.

Speaker, I rise on a matter of personal grievance and I would like an oppor tunity at this time to make a few comments on several of the problems tha t have been devel oping over the last several months tha t I see, that reflect on us as individuals and certainly us as representativ es of different cons tituencies. The Honour able Memb er for Turtle Mountain took the oppor tunit y last week, I believe, to sp eak on a matter of grievance and in that speech he commented somewha t unfavou rably on the governme nt of the present day.

During his speech he remarked several times about the fact that the govern ment, in his view, was not living up to its comm itments and was, in fact, not living up to the trust that the people of Man itoba had placed in it. Well, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that we have been in govern ment five months and that we are proceeding with as much haste and yet with as much caution as we can given the difficult circumstances, but I'm not here to defend our record. My point of grievance, Mr.

Speaker, is that the Op position it seems to me is not living up the trust tha t has been placed in them as Her Ma jesty's Loyal Op position. The people on the oppo site side of the House have a responsi bility that is in some ways equal to or greater than the responsibi lity on the govern ment side of the House. The respon sibility of the members of the Op posi tion - and the Member for Minn edosa is laughing because he doesn't feel he has any respon sibility I sup pose -t he fact is, tha t they do have a responsibil ity and I know tha t it is a respo nsibil ity which many of them take seriously .

However, Mr. Sp eaker, I think that in the pursuit of their duties and as I've said, they're important ones, I feel that quite often they overstep the bounds of the trust tha t has been placed in them. It seems to me tha t more often than is necessary the debate which the y participate in, which they incite, more often than not does not deal with the issues, those par ticular issues or the par ticular policies that the government is proposi ng. What happ ens is tha t the de bate that they participate so willingly in seems to degenerate into name calling, into insults, into the sleazier side of politics. Mr.

Sp eaker, if you look at the papers of the last several weeks, if you look at the information that is being placed in front of the public by members of the Op pos ition, I think you ha ve to question the credibil- ity of Her Majesty's Loyal Op position and I would like to direct the attention of you, Mr. Sp eaker, and other members, to someth ing in particular tha t conc erns me. Over the last several weeks memb ers op posite have made specific commen ts with regard to matters tha t are of no direct concern to the issues and policies that should be debated. My question is, Mr.

Sp eaker, I understand that in the heat of debate things get exagge rated. I understand that in the heat of debate positions and issues tend to be fudged, that there can be no guar antee tha t what one says in a moment of pas sion, in a moment of debate, is going to be what you actually mean. There is no certainty tha t what you say is going to be your exact position. In the heat of the moment wha t you say becomes distorted, your though ts aren't con cretely put across. I recognize tha t tha t happ ens. But, Mr.

Speaker, when in the cool light of reason and not associated with this Cham ber, when the members are outside of this Cham ber, when the members are distributing information to the public and they are making those same accusat ions, when they are trying to impart the same kind of information to try to create an atmosphere of fear, to try and create an atmosphere of distrust which is in no way deserved, then I have to stand in my place and say, is this the way that we collectively should be operating? I un derstand tha t it happens on our side and I und erstand that it happens in politics but my question is, Mr.

Speaker, is this and it's a question for the whole House to decide - is this the way tha t we want to proceed? To my way of thinking there is no place for the kind of personal - and the word was used by a Free Press reporter, I believe - sleazy perso nal attacks on indi viduals and I would hop e that I would not be accused of doing that I may be. As I said in a moment of weakn ess, in a moment of unthinkin g comme nt, I might make those kind of comments but it does happ en and as I've said, we could point out examp les of it ha pp ening in the local press. I have here, Mr.

Sp eaker, a copy of the report from the Legislature from the Honour able Memb er for Tur tle Moun tain -(I nterjection)- I'm not here to argue tha t poin t. What I am here to say, Mr. Speaker, is that in the text of his state ment tha t he released to the paper and I quote, Mr. Sp eaker, he says: "But the most alarm ing revelation from the Minister of Agricul ture is his belief that the system of land holding that exists in the Soviet Un ion will eventually come about in Manitoba." 19 94 I agree, Mr.

Speaker, that it is in Hansard but I respect the Honour ab le Memb er for Turtle Moun tain enough to kno w that he was here whe n that was said; he understood what the Minister meant by tha t state ment. If he wou ld have quoted the statement in con text we would have seen, and the people of Man itoba would have been allowed to see, wha t actually the Minister meant. He, in no way, has tied us to the method of land control that is used, say, in the Soviet Unio n, in fact, in the same statement, Mr.

Speaker, in Hans ard the Minister is also on record as supp orting private land ownership, the private land ownership of farmers indicating that this government is 10 0 percent behind the pri vate land ownersh ip.

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 Mr. Speaker. the Memb er for Arthur says, "Why doesn' t he say tha t?" I suggest the Memb er for Arthur read Hans ard; it is clearly written in Hansard. Mr. Speaker, he has said tha t is the desirable system; private land owner ship is the desirable system. Wha t the Minister said was tha t because of the loss of farms in this province, because the continuin g disapp ear anc e of the small family farm, we are in danger of ending up with a system where the farm land in this province is either owned and operated by very few corporate farmers, large farmers, whatever it is.

Tha t's wha t he said. He said we were losing the family farm. However, I' m not here to defend the Minister of Agriculture, he does tha t very well for himself. I would go on record, Mr. Speaker. as sayi ng that I admire and respect the Memb er for Turtle Mountain. a considera ble amount; I respect him as an individual. What I have questions about, Mr. Sp eaker, and serious questions, is tha t these kind of statements do not accurately reflect the position tha t these people occupy.

To my way of thinki ng, and I hop e to the Legislature as a whole. sees the position of Op position as one that is responsible; one tha t is there to outline the difficul ties, to outline the problems tha t are inherent in some of the programs tha t this governme nt might bring forth. It's a responsible po sition; it is not to be lowered to the level of some ideological innu endo when th ere is no relationsh ip to the actual statements of the Min ister or to the actual intent. Mr. Speaker, I ha ve taken the oppo rtun ity to peruse several of the reports from the Legislature from hon ourable memb ers op posite.

I ha ve an other one here from the April 1s t edition, The Swan Valley Echo, in which the Honour able Memb er for Swan River has stated, in press release, "that during the last provin cial election campaign and sh ortly afterwards the NOP can didate for the Swan River cons tituency com plained about the way some of our party workers had indicated that a vote for the NOP was a vote for the Commun ists." Ob viously, there may have been more truth than fiction if, in fact, this is what they were saying. Mr.

Speaker, this is an old political ploy asso ciating the New Democrats with Commun ists and the Soviet Union. I don't believe tha t it works. I don't believe that washes with the public, Mr. Sp eaker; I don't believe anybody buys it; I' m not distu rbed tha t contin ues. Personally, I'm not disturbed that con tinues. The difficulty I have, Mr.

Sp eaker, is tha t the comme nts tha t come out ab out the jac kboots and several other personal comments in that vei n stem from that ideology, stem from tha t overwhelming concern that some members have that there's some how some plot being hatc hed, tha t someho w just because we do not perceive things identically with the Conservative Party that means automa tically tha t there's some devious plot and something sinis ter going on. Clearly, Mr. Speaker. this government has policies tha t are different from the former governm ent's poli cies.

Th ose policies deserve to be debated in this Chamb er, Sir, in the most responsi bile manne r. Th ey deserve to be exami ned tho rough ly; they deserve to be criticized and they have been criticized and justifi ably so in many cases. That is their role, Mr. Speaker. But when tha t debate degenerates into the kind of mudslinging, name calling, putting of the debate into 19 95 some ideological mold, Mr. Sp eaker. I object to tha t and tha t's why I stand on this grievance. I wou ld like to say further, Mr.

Sp eaker, that I would like to provide an example of the kind of ideological furor that can be created out of adopting a certain numb er of statements or tak ing words out of context. Mr. Speaker, I'm going to take this oppor tun ity to single out an incident which occurred on Tuesday, April 27 in this Chamb er. I do this with a certain amount of reluctance but, given the display that we have seen in this Chamb er, Sir, on too many occa sions, I feel tha t there is a message here tha t has to be brought for·vard.

On Tuesday, April 27 in a speech being delivered by the Honourable Member for Morris he said: "Well, I think we can look at Argentina possi bly to see what they mean by freedom; there's free dom in Argentina. Mr. Speaker, he did not say th ere is freedom in Argentina once. On Page 19 03 he said: "that's a country tha t's free, but, is it really free in an economic sense?" Mr. Speaker, he said it a third time, he said, again: "I refer to free countries like Argentina." Now, Mr. Sp eaker, I want to mak e one thing per fectly clear concerning the Honour able Memb er for Morris.

I believe that these statements were made carelessly. I do not bel ieve for one minute that the Member for Morris can associate himself with the atrocities tha t are occurring in Argentina. I do not believe that, I kn ow tha t he is an honour able member. Wha t I'm saying, Mr. Speaker, is that I could take these comments out of context, I could go down to the Mennoni te commun ities of wh ich th ere are many Mennon ites in Argentina. There are many Men no nites in his commun ity, but I could -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEA KER: Order please. Order please.

I would hop e the members would give the same amount of courtesy to the memb er who is spe aking now tha t they expect when they are speak ing. The Honour able Member for Flin Flon. MR. STORIE: Thank you , Mr. Sp eaker, perhaps I could con tinue. I kn ow the Member for Morris did not mean to imply in th ose statements alone tha t th ere was any con nection between the words that he was spe akin g and some of the atrocities that are being comm itted in Argentina, I kn ow tha t. He was speak ing in an economic sense and he was tying that into his economic argument and that's legitimate. But wha t I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, is, that it is all too easy for members of this Chamb er to go ahead and take statements out of context and tie then into some ideological boondoggle to confuse and distort and create mistrust in the pub lic. There is no room for that in this Chamb er. Mr. Sp eaker, I could go on and out line for the Honour able Memb er for Morris and other members of this Chamb er some of the atrocities tha t are being committed, some of the comple tely un de mocratic, unth ink able, unspeakable kinds of goings on that are occurring in Argentina. Mr.

Sp eaker, I ha ve here a document from the Uni ted Nations Economic and Social Council and it's a subm ission on hum an rights and it deals with the question of human rights of all persons su bjected to any form of detention or impr isonment in Argentina and it deals with the question of missing and dis placed perso ns and it says, it's talking about the

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 method of the political repression: "This method of political repress ion used in Argentina varies from one country to another but irrespective of the num bers involved which also vary in all of these countries including Argentina, it represents a violation of the most elem entary hu man rights." Tha t is not freedom, Mr. Speaker.

It contin ues: "Arrests or kidnapping of persons by state bodies, govern ment bodies or others which carry out their actions with complete impunity subsequently the auth orities refuse to ackno wledge tha t persons affected have been det ained, in some countries the corpses of missing perso ns are found bound gener ally with signs of tor ture, on others the fate of the prisoner s remains un kn own, un less a great cemetery is accidentally uncovered." Mr.

Sp eaker, just to reinforce what I'm saying, this body that made this presenta tion said that it would like to draw the attention of the United Nati ons Human Rights Com mission to the inhum ane fate of hundr eds of perso ns, men, women and childr en, dis app eared particularly in Argentina, Chile, Gua tamala, Parag uay and Urug uay. Mr. Sp eaker, there is a long list of articles -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Does the Honour able Member for Morris have a point of order? MR. CLAYTON MANN ESS (Morris): Mr.

Sp eaker, I'm wondering if the honour able member would table the document from which he is reading either now or at the end of his presenta tion. MR. SPEAKER: If the document is a pub lic document it is not necessary to table it. If it is otherwise, the member has a responsi bility to table such a document. MR. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I have no problems with tabling the document. Yes, the y are also pub lic doc uments, I obtained them from the library.

They are a Un ited Nations document and if the Honour able Member for Morris would care to ha ve them from me I certainly would be more than willing to let him ha ve those. Mr. Sp eaker, I have another document tha t is a report presented to the Un ited Nations in Januar y of 19 80. It talks about ano ther countr y where there is very little freedom and that is Chi le.

I won't outline all of the thi ngs tha t this document says but it talks about the comple te lack of human rights and the restrictions placed on the freedom of information, on the freedom of movement, on the freedom of liberty and we all kn ow some of the activities of the right wing govern ment tha t is presently in control in Chile. Similar kinds of thing s are happen ing in Argentina. I have another docume nt, Mr. Sp eaker, which comes from the Reader's Digest. The title is "Argentina 's Appal ling Reign of Terror." No w this is the crux of the matter, Mr. Sp eaker. In this

article an Argent ine gen eral, part of which may represent the govern ment given that the government is a military govern ment, and it says: "A terrorist is not just someone with a gun or a bomb but also someone who spr eads ideas con trary to Chr istian civilization." Mr. Speaker, tha t is a very dan gerous notion and on tha t pretext the gov ernment of Argent ina ha s und ergone a campaign of eliminating, of kidna pping, of murdering tens of thou sands of people. Mr.

Speaker, "Thousands of victims," this ar ticle says, "Thousands of victims of a reign of terror that has tormented Argentina since the 19 76 coup, the terror is all the more ap alling because it is being car ried out by an out law extremist group, by sin ister squads of the government's own military and police. As a result, one of the biggest and most developed countries in the western hem isphere has come to be regarded as its worst violator of hu man rights. Esti mates of the total numb er of kidna pped persons runs as high as 20,000 people.

They are known as the disapp eared ones." On at least th ree occasions, Mr. Speaker, this doc ument says, "Dozens of bodies have washed up on the shores of Argentine beaches with their heads cho pped, with their bodies mutilated, their bodies burned, their heads or hands chopp ed off, making identification impos sible." Mr. Sp eaker, on the su rface if you look at Bueno s Aires as a capital city it looks peaceful, it looks serene, it looks wealthy and affluent, but un derneath the Argentine society is sick, it is a sick society.

It is a society full of death and destruction; it is a society of no freedom, contrary to the accidental remarks of the Member for Morris. Mr. Speaker, I do not believe they were deliberate. He was talking economic freedom and I agree with the Member for Morris. My point is, Mr. Speaker , why, time after time after time, do we ha ve to sit and listen to the ideological crap imputing motives to the members of the govern ment without being able to respond? This was my opp ortun ity to respond, Mr. Sp eaker, and I have taken it. -(I nte rjection)- It is a game.

I recognize tha t politics is a game -(I nterjection)- the Member for Arthur says that it is a very serious game. I'll rephrase th at. The Memb er for Ar thur said tha t it's a very serious business. I agree with tha t. Mr. Speaker, when I said it was a game, I meant in that thing s were said from a particular perspective sometimes. So metimes th ose thing s were said from a par ticular perspective with the full kno wledge - and I hop e the Memb er for Arthur will recognize this and acknowledge it sometimes things are said with the full kn owledge that they're said only from a particular perspective.

Th ey do not represent the whole truth, but only represent that portion of the truth which we care to present. Mr. Sp eaker, the Member for Arthur has been involved in this business a long time and it is a serious business. I want to assure him tha t memb ers on this side take that business very seriously but, Mr. Sp eaker, any business has to be run by rules. What I would like to see, Mr.

Sp eaker, is that the rule of this Assem bly accord individuals the respect tha t they deserve; that there not be allowed in this Chamb er, Sir, the kind of individual attack that we have witnessed on too many occasions. 19 96 Mr. Sp eaker, I recognize that the kind of jibes that go back and forth from members' seats is someth ing that we're not going to prevent. It's someth ing that ha ppens in the heat of debate. I would not wish to stifle people venting their anger . Those incidences are most often, Mr.

Sp eaker, as the Member for Tux edo has indicated, are delivered in good clean fun - fun may not be the appr opriate word - but they're

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 not delivered with a sense of menace and I kn ow the Member for Tuxedo believes tha t because he often jibes at the present govern ment. But, Mr. Speaker, the bottom line is that - the point that I've been making is that comments can be taken out of context. The Member for Morris from his seat asked me a question. He asked me whether I supp orted the atroc ities in Poland or in Afghan istan or in the Soviet Unio n, the lack of hu man rights. Mr.

Sp eaker, I will tell the Memb er for Morris now, I will tell him on the record tha t I am in no way suppor tive of the limitation, or the elimination of hu man rights no matter where they occur. Whether they occur in right-wing dicta torship s, in right-wing totalitarian governments, or whether they occur in left-wing totalitarian govern ments, it makes no difference. It mak es no difference. Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to make that last issue. MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. MR. STOR IE: Mr. Speaker, I would like as well to say at this time th at I apo logize to the Memb er for Morris for using him as an example.

I understand as well as the Member for Arthur has said, that I could be used as an exam ple. The Memb er for Arthur correctly men tioned the fact tha t I was quoted in the Free Press as sayi ng, "Tha t I hop ed that this Caucus would do away with the slavering dogs of capitalism and supp ort the farmers on the Crow resolution." I said tha t with tongue in cheek. I said tha t with ton gue in cheek. I recogn ize, Mr. Sp eaker, as a political MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please.

I kn ow that members do not wish to infringe up on the 40 minutes allowed to the honour able memb er when they ha ve an equal oppor tun ity to get up and give their own points of view. The Honour able Member for Flin Flon. MR. STO RIE: Mr. Sp eaker, I recognize that I am a political neophy te as is the Member for Morris. I rec ogn ize tha t we are from time to time, going to say thing s which we do not mean, literally. I recognize as well, tha t is part of politics.

I recognize that we have to live with the jibes that are forwarded our way because of th ose misstatements and I recognize tha t I am as liable to make th ose errors as anyone in this Cham ber. My final point is, that there are members in this Chamb er with a great deal more experie nce who seem to be exercising a considerable lack of respect for the position which they occupy and for the job whic h they have been elected to do. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE AKER: The Hono urable Memb er for Robli n-Russell. POINT OF ORDER MR. McKENZ IE: I thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. Mr.

Sp eaker, I feel sorry for the hon ourable member. The Dep uty Sp eaker of this House, the Deput y Speaker of the parliamentary system in this province, standin g up on a grievance motion? Can you believe it? Can you believe it that the Dep uty Speaker of this Legisla ture stood in his place this day and attacked the sys- tern that we're using this Legislature to make better legislation and to make sure this government tries and delivers the promises that it pledged to the people of this province? I don't think in my time, Mr.

Speaker, and I've only been here since '66, I have never heard, and I can go back and check Hans ard, of a Deputy Speaker any time ever standing in his place and attacking the op position because they're trying to make the gov ernment deliver their programs. Mr. Speaker, it's un believable, unb elievable. Now I kn ow, Mr. Sp eaker, tha t the Memb er for St.

Bon iface has been here longer than I have and I just ask him to rise in his place after I sit down and tell me if, in his time, he has ever seen a Deputy Speaker of this Chamb er stand up and attack the British parliamen tary system which is so near and dear to our hearts like this member has this afternoon, Mr. Speaker . It's unbelievable. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Member for Flin Flon on a point of order. MR. STO RIE: Mr.

Speaker, I will ha ve to wait until the record is before me in the form of Hansard, but I believe tha t the Honour able Member for Roblin Rus sell is totally misinterpreting and misconstru ing what I have said. Wha t I have said, Mr. Sp eaker, I believe is that this Chamb er has a respon sibility tha t has been carried out and I simply pointed out one aspect of it that I wish to bring to the attention of this Chamb er, needs in my estimation, further consideration. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honour able Member for Minnedosa wish to speak to the same point of order? 19 97 MR. BLAKE: On the same point of order, Mr.

Sp eaker. Th ere was a good illustration of it just recently with the Mayor of Winnip eg's visit to Taiwan that stirred up a bit of a controversy because it was claimed, by some quarters, tha t he was going there as the Mayor, not as a private citizen, and therefore, it lent some credibility to tha t visit. If the Dep uty Sp eaker now is criticizing the decorum and the conduc t of this House he is cast ing asper sions on the Chair because his position as Deputy Speaker puts him in a far more responsible position than any or dinary member in this House. So, I'm just concerned, Mr.

Speaker, that your reputation is being cast upon. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the Honour able Memb er for Minnedosa for his explana tion of that point. The Honour able Minister of Health. MR. DESJAR DINS : On a point of order before we leave this. It was very interesting but I would like you to rule to see if the last mem ber who told us the story about the Mayor of Winnip eg if that was a point of order, to serve as guidelines in future debates. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. McKENZIE : Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not a sage of this parliamentary system nor can I tell you, Mr.

Thursday, 29 April, 1982 Sp eaker, tha t you and I kn ow how this system works and how it should function, but I tell my learned friend, who ha s only been here a shor t time, if he can't sta nd the heat in this kitchen he better pack up his seat and leave. I would like him to tell me today, Mr. Speaker, wha t he's added to the British Parliamentary system and the cond uct of this House and the way tha t you'v e been hand ling this House. Mr. Sp eaker, I'm satisfied tha t you've been excellent the way you've handl ed this Legislature and I have no quarrels.

Cer tainly the other day with the problem with the pigeon , and we've been through that and I've already apolog ized to you for that cond uct. But, Mr. Speaker, I am satisfied tha t you 've run this House excellently. I become very conc erned when the Depu ty Speaker of this House raises in his place and says that the ques tions tha t are being raised by the Opp osition are not fair, th ey're not properly prepar ed or they're not deal ing with the su bject matter that we should be dealing with in this Chamb er, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I only have to refer to one matter that's so near and dear to my heart and tha t's the problem of selling the cheese in Ro ssb urn. Sur ely, Mr. Sp eaker, I stand in my place here day after day after day and ask this govern ment, and all tho se members on the back bench, surely that somehow we can dispose of that surplus che ese. The Memb er for St. Joh ns, of course, he can't speak in this House because he's in confl ict with the Attorney-General, we all know tha t, he's got to be very careful how he condu cts himself.

But, he and I talke d in the halls the other day about dispo sing this cheese surplus to Poland. But, do you think any of these Ministers over there The other thing, Mr. Speaker , tha t the honour able learned member sitting to my left here doesn't under stand, they are the government over there; they are the treasury and they have the purse; they have all the power. Mr. Speaker, all that we have is you sitting in your Chair there and the right to speak and raise in our place. We don't have all the power that the y have over th ere; we don 't have the Treasury Ben che s; we don't ha ve the pur se.

All we have is the right to stand up in this House and ask them. This member here says we can't do that and it's unacceptable to him and he doesn't like it and he's un happ y. I tell him to resign tomor row and get out of this place. I tell him again if he can't stand the heat in this kitchen, pack up his books and go back wh ere he came from and send somebody else in here because I can't sta nd more of that diatribe than I heard from the honour able member this afternoon. Mr. Speaker, the other conc ern that I have, and especially when a Deputy Sp eaker rises in his place, Mr.

Speaker, you kn ow and I kn ow this is the weakest govern ment that I've ever seen in my lifetime in this Legislatu re. This is the poorest, ill-conceived, ill plann ed government, who have no answers. I'm going to go through this whole book page-by-page before I'm finished to ju st point out to the honour able members how bad the y actually are. I daresay these comments that I'm raising this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, will likely go down in history as one of the more learned statements tha t this is in fact the weakest govern ment this province has ever seen.

I don't think anybody in this province today will disput e that. He says , this learned member over here, this Dep- uty Speaker of this House, Mr. Speaker - remember, he's the Deputy Speaker - he says we in the Opp osi tion are wasting the time of the House. Is tha t what this learned member said when he seco nded the Throne Sp eech. He said we'd see open, free govern ment. This learned member is trying to muzzle us over here so we can't even ask a question. Is tha t fair, Mr. Speaker? Is that the British Parliamentary system that we've practiced for so long in this country. Mr.

Sp eaker, it is not and I shall not accept the commen ts or the grievance tha t the honour able member raised this afternoon. I think tha t he's a disgrace to the parli amentary system; he's a disgrace to his cons tituency and he should not be allowed to sit as Dep uty Speaker in this House after what he said this afternoon. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER, Harry Harapiak (The Pas): The Honour able Member for St. Johns on a point of order. MR. DONA LD MALINOWSKI (St. Johns): Mr.

Sp eaker, certainly, I would like to put on the record th at the Honour able Member for Rus sell said that I have a confl ict with the Attorney-General. It 's not true. We are workin g together; we are from the same party and we don 't have any conf lict whatsoever. So, I would like to jus t clear this record, he was accusing me. This is beside the point, you kn ow, I'm talking about some thing else. Mr. Speaker, the honour able memb er stood up to tell us the truth but, when he started to speak he is not giving us the truth, he's accusing us and he should apolo gize for it. MR. DE PUTY SPEAK ER: Point of order.

MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, the only evidence that I have is commen ts that were made by the honour able member when the y were fighting tha t St. Jo hns elec tion campaig n. I have it in my file wha t the honour able member said about the Attorney-General and the House Leader about wha t he thought about his politi cal backgr ound. I have that in my file. If he wants me to read it into the record, I'll read it into the record. 19 98 MR. DE PUTY SPEAK ER: Same point of order. MR. STEVE ASHTON (Thompson): On a different point of order, Mr. Deputy Sp eaker.

I would note in Beauchesne there are a numb er of citations in regard to langua ge similar to the Hono urable Member for Roblin-Russell used. In regard to the Member for Flin Flon, in particular on No. 320M, Disgracing the House, I think the statements used by the honour able member were of a similar nature and I would ask you to rule whether indeed the se were parliamentary or actually unp arliamentary langua ge. MR. DE PUTY SPEAK ER: The Govern ment House Leader. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, may I suggest that you wait until you have a cha nce to peruse Hans ard to give your decision on this. MR.

DE PUTY SPEAKER: On the same point of order.

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 MR. OR CHARD: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Did the Honour able MLA for St. Johns ha ve a point of order? MR. DE PUTY SPEAK ER: I will have to wait until I ha ve had a chan ce to peruse the comments and I will make a ruling at that time. The Honour able Government House Leader. MR. DESJARDINS: Well, on a point of order. I thought it was going to continue for a while. The motion was already placed in front of the House.

QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Su pply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Member for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Depart ment of Health; and the Honour able Memb er for The Pas in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manp ower. CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SU PPLY SU PPLY - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR. CHAIR MAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): We'll call the Comm ittee to order. We're in Labour and Man power, 2.(

d) Employmen t Standards:

(1) Salaries. The Member for St. No rbert. MR. ME RCIE R: Mr. Chairman, I would like to discuss the recent increase in the minimum wage to some extent. The Minister has indicated that he and the Cabi net, I take it, took a political position and adopted the mino rity report of the Minimum Wage Board. I appr eciate that this is a very difficult decision when you're faced with it because I don't think anyone in any political party really wants to see someone who is dependent on the minimum wage, particularly as a primary source of income, to fall behind the cost-of living increases.

At the same time there are stud ies tha t have been done elsewhere, in other jur isdictions, that raise questions about whether or not such increases, and perhaps, increases the size of the most recent one in these kinds of economic times as to whether or not they have the effect of causi ng jo bs to be lost for some segments of the job popu lation. Mr.

Chairman, back in, I believe it was in 19 78-79, the Minimum Wage Board was divided and part of the I believe it was the mana gement section, in fact - of the man agement representatives at that time sug gested there should be a complete review of the min imum wage and raised -t he Minister will have the full material - but they suggested there should be ques tions looked into and studies done by qualified people with respect to who receives the minimum wage, who pays the minimum wage, wha t effect would this have on employment oppor tunit ies, wha t effect would it have on new businesses commencing operation or old businesses exp andin g operations, wha t extent would it have on emplo yment, the economic implica tions for the province, etc., and they did refer to some of the recent studies that were done in the Un ites States and I believe one in Quebec which made a suggestion that the increase in minimum wage does cause a loss of emp loyment.

I don't think th ere is any un amimous conclusion tha t anyone has come to but I wonder if the Minister, now tha t he has autho rized the recent increase, in view of the controversy that has taken place, in view of the conflicting stu dies tha t ha ve been done, would he be prepared to un dertake this kind of thorough review of minimum wage in Manitoba to attempt to answer some of these questions?

As I have indicated, I think everyone is sy mpathetic, particularly to tho se people who receive the minimum wage as a primary sou rce of income, who are depen dent upon tha t source of income, but nob ody wants to see at the same time a loss of jo bs.

I jus t wonder, in view of this previous recommendation I don't think any action was taken on it, would the Minister in the light of having made a decision to increase the min imum wage in the way he has done and the controv ersy that ha s come from some quarters of society, would he be prepared to un dertake a full review of the implications of raising the minimum wage, etc.? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HO N. VIC SCH ROEDER (Rossmere): Mr. Chairman, when we started thinking ab out raising the minimum wage, it was one of the first items on my agenda when I took office; I thought it was important.

We had spoken abou t it often enough in Opposition and Cabi net decided tha t we wo uld go by way of having the Minimum Wage Board hold meetings and come to a determination. 19 99 At the same time I asked the Department of Labour and the Department of Financ e to come up with some indications as to the effects of minimum wage increases. As the member has indicated there is that report in Que bec; there are other reports. Th ere are economis ts who argue on both sides of the issue, I don't think that it's a very clear issue.

We did check to determine wha t impact it might have in the area of the clothing industry, the garment man ufactu ring, which is an area where some people had expr essed concern, not incidental ly people from that industry but rather others who thought they were spe aking in protection of tha t industry. We disco vered tha t there were relatively few people in tha t industry who were on the minimum wage or very close to it. The one area where we had a lot of people con cerned was in the area of the hotel industry, the res tau rant industry.

I should say tha t there was, as the memb er kno ws, a differential put in a few years ago with respect to people handling alcoholic beverages and we did look at that. We checked to see how many - and these are troubled economic times - and we determined that th ere are no operations of tha t type going out of business that we can discover. There doesn't seem to be any real danger of the hotels in the province going bankrup t. They seem to be doing fairly well.

So we decided tha t we, not because of tha t in itself although mayb e we would ha ve looked at it in a different light if there was some evidence that there was a real problem in tha t industry, but we didn't see that. We felt that it was important for the dignity of work ing men and women tha t there not be this group who someho w had a lesser wage than other people.

Tha t was the same type of political decision that was made when the differential was put in. With respect to a study, I think, that's a good sug gestion. Both empl oyers and emplo yees in the past have occasionally suggested tha t the minimum wage be tied to some kind of a form ula and I have occasion ally been attracted to tha t kind of proposal but there are some problems with it.

One of the biggest prob lems is, tha t we have to be looking at wh at other jur isdictions are doing, we can't go too far ahead of them nor be be hind them and using some of the for mulas tha t had been suggested in the Seventies I think tha t we could have gotten ourselves into some problems, although the form ulas looked okay at the time. We are looking to see whether there is any other way of doing it.

I'm sure tha t if we could come up with something that would be fair to all and would put us in a position where we don't ha ve to mak e these kinds of annou ncements, but rather they just sort of come because of the formula, we would feel as politicians, very good about tha t. But I have the feeling as well that within a few years we would have to mak e ano ther political decision to eliminate that formula because it would either be paying too little or it would be paying too much and then we would be back with wh oever of the two groups is in opposition, haranguing the gov ernment for that.

It's an area where, I supp ose, in the final analysis you have to guess, you want to guess to ensur e tha t you're not too low and you want to guess to ensur e that you'r e not too high. In this particular case, the major areas of disagreement was a matter of 10 cents an hour . Tha t is, the emplo yer representatives sug gested $3.90 an hour, the emp loyee representatives suggested $4 an hour and as you can see, we ch ose the $4.00. There were other areas where they didn't disagree where we came in the middle, I believe.

There was a suggestion tha t student salaries, or peo ple un der age 18 , have their wages go up to $3.65 an hour and we ended up at $3.55 an hour . When we did that we were also looking across the border to Sas katchewan where those very same people under age 18 are receiving $4.25 an hour, so wha t we have got right now even with this increase, is a 70 cents an hour differential between students in Saska tchewan and students in Manitoba. The question of a review is a good one. I would like to see ano the r review done.

I'm not completely optim istic that we're going to be able to come up with a solution that would be satisfactory for any lengthy period of time, in any event. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has referred to having made a political ju dgment, perhap s having to make in the futur e a political jud gment again in the event tha t certain occurrences took place, or ha ving to make some guesses at wha t is appropria te.

He has adopted a minority report from the Minimum Wage Board rather than the majority report which he has every right to do but which would ten d, I would think, to harm the quality of the report tha t he might receive in the future from the Minimum Wage Board. I would hope, Mr.

Chair man, tha t he would think seriously about unde rtaking a thorough review, as 19 82 was previously recommended, and certainly ha ving involved in that review both employee and emplo yer representatives and perhap s let's hop e that they could come up with a full discussi on of the imp lica tions of such increases that might make it easier for the Minister, and any futur e Minister, to deal with this very difficult su bject in the future. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chair man, tha t's someth ing tha t I think we ought to do but I should say that the position right now out th ere is, as I und erstand it, tha t the employees are still looking for a specific form ula type of solution and the employers, who at one time agreed with that position, are now of the view that it's unlikely that we'll be able to ach ieve a formula that will be useful to us for a long period of time. That doesn't mean we should n't try again and I think we will. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could indicate wha t percentage of those employed on the minimum wage in Man itoba are under 25 years of age. MR. CHAIR MAN: Mr. Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, I don't have that numb er here. I'm not sure that we wo uld have a spe cific numb er in any event. There are, in total, some where between 20,000 and 40,000 Man itobans on the minimum wage, tha t is the estimate. There is no real way of knowing exactly how many there are. We un derstand that over the years it has been in the range of 5 to 10 percent of the workforce. 2000 MR.

FILMON: Would the Minister's department esti mate that the majority of that group is under 25 then or the minority? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, ap parently there is a question of age but there is also a question of student s, people who are work ing pa rt-time generally are on the minimum wage and there is also a sign ifi cant component of wha t we understand to be the people working on minimum wage are women, and I'm sure th ere are a lot of young peo ple on the min imum wage as well. MR. FILMON: Does the Minister not, and again acknowle dging, as the Member for St.

Nor bert has, that none of us wish to place restrictions of income on people who have to live on the minimum wage, but combining it with, firstly, the strong representations of the food and beverage industry employers who se estimate, I believe, is tha t it could affect the loss of as many as 1, 200 jo bs in their industry and with the Minister's stated intention of wanting to promote additional jobs for student s this sum mer and institut ing a program expected to cost $2.9 million or $3 million, and so on, did the timing or the jux taposit ion of the two decisions not seem to be rather stra nge to the Minister?

MR. SCHROEDER: Well, it seemed to me that it would be appr opriate to let people know that on top of

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 work ing in the sum mertime, th ere would be a reason able minimum wage and the member refers to numb ers by the restaurant asso ciation. I want to tell the memb er tha t I met with that group on a numb er of occasions before the decision was made and I want to tell the member as well that they presented a brief to us which in no way suppor ted any kind of a suggestion that the hotel and tourism indus try had somehow hired more people as a result of the wage differential.

In fact, we have since the hullabaloo started, looked up and down the country to determine what impacts there were in other provinces. Ju st for exam ple, in Saska tchewan, wh ere yo ung people under age 18 are get ting 70 cents an hour more than in Man itoba and others are getting 25 cents an hour more than the y will be in Manitoba. The res taurant and food industry employment figures grew sign ificantly faster during the last several years than they did in Man toba and that was the case almost without exception throughout Canada.

There was no evidence tha t after the tip differential was set up that the re was any sign ificant increase in employment. In fact, I have to tell you tha t th ere was a decrease in emp loyment in Man itoba as op posed to an increase in Canada in resta urants with more than 20 emplo yees.

So if the honour able memb er has any information that would sug gest tha t the numb ers that the industry is projecting are accurate, I'd be interested in seeing it, but they didn't present any statistics to us other than, ju st for instance, they said tha t in Minnesota the minimum wage is $3.25 an hour and therefore you are putting us in a position where our people have to compete with people who will be earning considera bly less.

The fact of the matter is though tha t when you takethe dollar into account, the minimum wage in Minnesota is approxi mately $4 an hour and for a Can adian going to Minnesota, he or she will pay with Canadian dollars which are worth, if you pay $3.25, basically it works out to approxima tely $4 that you pay. The same thing appl ies to Minnesotans coming to Man itoba, so a lot of the argume nts that were pro vided were on exam ination not valid in our opinion.

Again, the y didn't show in any way tha t th ere ha d been an increase in employment as a result of the different ial, nor did they sho w tha t th ere would be a decrease as a result of the removal of the differential. MR. FILMON: Is the Minister say ing tha t th ere isn't such a thing in the Un ited States as a federal minimum wage which is less than the normal minimum wage for those who are in the food and beverage industry and likely to be in receipt of tips? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, th ere is a federal minimum wage in the United States as there is a fed eral minimum wage in Canada.

I don't have the exact nu mber of it at my fing ertips, but it is lower than the $3.25 per hour tha t - no, I'm sorry, as of Jan uary 1 st, 19 81, the minimum wage federally was $3.3 5 per hour in the Un ited States, which would work out to more than the $4 per hour that we have here.

No w I think you'r e right though tha t th ere is possi bly a federal minimum wage differential for hotel and restaurant emplo yees, but it is my un dersta nding tha t does not apply in Minnesota wher e a state law would be the law that would govern , by far, the majo rity of hotel and restaurant emp loyees other than, if their laws are similar to ours, other than railway restaurants. MR.

FILMON: Yes, for the Minister's informa tion, it's $2.01 versus the $3.35 in terms of the federal legisla tion in the Un ited States and the differential is utilized in many of the states in the Un ited States for food and beverage workers, acknowle dging the fact tha t a sig nificant portion of their income often is from tips. Is the Minister sa ying that he doesn't believe tha t a significant portion of income for food and beverage workers is from tips in Manitoba? MR. SCHROEDER: I don't believe that it ought to be government policy to encou rage or discourage rela tions between emp loyees and customers.

I believe that it is the re spo nsibility of govern ment to ha ve minimum wage rates that will neither detract from tipping nor encour age tipping. It is my vie w tha t by having a tip differential you are inviting the pub lic to provide a tip, providing of cou rse tha t the emp loyee smiles properly at you as the service is given. MR. FILM ON: Does the Minister then believe tha t by removing this differential he is suggesting or inviting the person being served not to tip? 2001 MR. SCHROEDER: No, by removing the differential we are being neutral on that issue.

Our relationsh ip -(Int erjection)- Well, the memb er says we can't have it both ways. I suggest tha t we can have it neu trally. Wha t we can do is say tha t there is a minimum amount that must be paid for an hour's work in the Province of Man itoba. That amount will be paid by all emplo yers to their emp loyees. Our rule is to deal with employment standards betwee n emplo yers and employees and not to govern any relationship s between emp loyees and third parties. Tha t is none of our business. We do not encour age nor discou rage the giving of tips.

It is our view tha t if we had the minimum wage at a lower level for th ose emp loyees than for others, then we would be encou raging the giving of tips. MR. FILMON: But, Mr. Ch airman, if the Minister says that by permitting a differential to exist. They are inviting people to make up the difference throu gh tips and he must, by deduction, logically say tha t by elimi nating the differential they are inviting people not to tip. I don't think he can h :ive it both ways; it's one or the other.

If that's his position then that's fine, then the pub lic should kn ow that; they're been invited not to tip as much because the Minister is saying tha t legisla tively he's going to mak e up the differential and has done so. Again, to the point of the adoption of the Minimum Wage Board Repor t, in the House the Minister indi cated that he believed that public hearings were deemed not necessary by previous govern ments and therefore that view was accepted by his government because there is broad representation on the Board.

People from both sides of the issue and presu mably some in the middle are represented on the Board and th erefore it was not necessary to undertake public hearings. On the other hand, he has chosen not to accept the ...

majority report of the Board, so therefore he is not saying tha t the board is representative of all the views of the pub lic if he's only going to select one viewpoint, the minor ity viewpoint, I might add, from the Board. Again, I don't find that very defens ible. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, dealing with the second point first, then I'm sure the former Minister of Consu mer Affairs must have felt emba rrassed whe n his govern ment didn't follow the report of the major ity. The Boar d was made up of the identical people. I should say tha t in some areas we disagreed with both majority and minority.

We have to make the final deci sion and we don't apolog ize for tha t. As far as not ha ving it both ways is concerned, I really don't under stand the honour able member's argument. As of July 1s t, 19 82, the re will only be two provinces in this countr y tha t have this kind of a tip differential. All of the others say that an employer pays so much to an empl oyee minimum per hour.

If what the honour able memb er is suggesting is tha t in all the other provinces including Manitoba is then the position of the govern ment th erefore, tha t they are op posed to tipping; I suggest that is simply not a propos ition that he can logically argue. I think he could make that argument if we said we would demand a minimum wage of $4.50 an hour for hotel and restaurant emp loyees and $4 for everyone else. Then you could say: "Well, tho se people are earn ing more money per hour, why should we tip them?

" You could make the same argu ment if you say : "They will be at $3.50 an hour while everybody else is at $4 an hour." That is the reverse argument; here the govern ment encou raging to tip. We are taking the middle of the road, we're taking the same position that all of the provinces to the west of us are taking, tha t we will not get involved in tha t issue. MR. FILM ON: Does the Minister, or does the Minister not bel ieve that people who are working in service areas in the food and beverage industry do get a significant portion of their income through tips? MR.

SCH ROEDER: Tha t is between them and their tax person. I should say tha t when the tip differential was instituted it was instituted without any such recommendation from either the majority or the minority of the Minimum Wage Board. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Ch airman, I think my real con cern is whether or not there will be a loss of jo bs. Does the Min ister have a mechanism in place tha t can someho w determine specifically whether or not jo bs will be lost as a result of the increase in the manner in which it is being done? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chairman, it's a very inexact science. During the next year I'm sure that there will be restaurants going out of business as there did last year and five years ago. In each case you can contri b ute fault to different areas, including the mana gement 19 82 skills of the man agement group; the type of food they were selling; the par ticular area they were in, maybe the y didn't have enough of a customer area; the kind of capital investment, and; certainly, pa ying $4 an hour instead of $3.35 an hour for an emp loyee will add to the cost of the owner.

At the same time I remind the member that the tip differential only appl ied to people who were serving alcoholic beverages so that this didn't apply any way to the people work ing in the back of the shop.

They had to be paid the regular minimum wage in any event, so I wou ld suggest tha t the differ ence isn't quite as severe as some might have thought in the fi rst place. 2002 I would say as well tha t an argument could be made that if you have 20,000 or 40,000 people earn ing 45 cents an hour more than they were in the past, tha t the y will be spe nding more money and tha t there, in fact, will be some jobs created. They may not be the same jobs in the food and restaurant business, the y may be elsewhere.

I'm sure the memb er would agree with me that when a person is receiving $16 0 a week tha t he or she will spe nding prac tically all of that money very quickly because they ju st can't afford not to. MR. MERCIER: Ju st in the few moments left, Mr.

Chairman, and I think that the Minister's answer that the mechanism that he has through his department is a very inexact science further jus tifies the suggestion tha t there should be a full and thorough review with the oppo rtun ities for input from all sectors of society into this question so tha t th ese decisions in the futu re can be based on a thorough study and on some prov able facts. MR. CHAIR MAN: The hour being 4:30, I'm interrupt ing proceedings for Private Members' Hour. The Comm ittee will reconvene at 8 o'clock SU PPLY - HEAL TH MR. CHAIR MAN, Jerry T.

Storie (Flin Flon): The Health Estimates. the Personal Care Home Program, I believe. The Honour able Memb er for Virden. Order please. The Honour able Member for Virden was on his feet, please. MR. GR AHAM: Un less the honour able member has some information that may be valuable in debate. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Chai rman, everything I say is valuable in debate, but I have a statement of correc tion or to make sure that th ere's no misu nderstan ding in the state ment that I've made.

So if you could take note, I wish to clarify tha t the Adolescent Psychiatric Uni t proposed for central Winni peg in addition to outpatient and day space will incl ude 25 inpatient beds. I think I had menti oned 20. It's 25. Also, th ere was one tha t was left from one of the sched ules, the St. Bon iface Hosp ital laundry. While the cost for the upgrading of the St. Bon iface Hospital laun dry to provide improved and reasonable service is included for construc tion during this fiscal year,

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 this specific project was omitted from my earlier state ment. It doesn't change the amount of the funds. It was just omitted but the total amoun t stays the same. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair man, the five year Capital Program that the Honour able Minister delivered to us the other day had some omissions tha t certainly caused me some concerns, especially when the hosp ital facilities at Virden were not in the fi rst five-year plan, although he does include them later on as programs that are under consideration.

I wou ld ask the Honour able Minister to seriously consider the condition of the present hosp ital in Virden and the attempts that are being made by the Hospital Board there to have an entirely new structure to replace it as the old one is, in the opinion of many, beyond repair. I hop e that plans can go ahead as quickly as pos sible so that hospital facility can be brought forward as quickly as poss ible. MR. DESJ ARDINS: I realize the concern of my hon ourable friend and the people in the ar ea and this is why I've instructed the Health Sciences Centre to develop functional programs for the people in the area.

Now, I'll try to explain. When we talk about long-range plan nin g or a five-year program, it is not the $14 3 million that was anno unced and autho rized at this time. It is going to be much more than tha t during the next five years.

We're talking about now we ha ve to sort many of these thi ngs tha t have been appr oved un der the former govern ment but we have the responsibi lity of continuing or deciding if we should freeze, if we should change or if we should go ahead and certainly to provide the funds and to make the decision that they will go on at this time and then the people of Manitoba will have to make sure to provide the dollars for the operating cost of these thing s. No w, the situation is th ere are two groups.

Let's say tha t some are appr oved to start building as fast as pos sible or as soon as pos sible; some of them are being construc ted now. Others have been directed to go to tend ers immediately and others as they come along we'll go it and, as I tried to explain, because we're not going to plan in a fish bowl. We're wor king with other departments. We're looking at the econ omy of the province. We're looking at the state of the building trade and so on and it is possible tha t will be modified some.

Wel l, all right, all I can say is I'm not going to go ahe ad and annou nce something and appr ove something that's going to be started or tha t we've had no functional program, that we don't kn ow exactly wha t we're going to ap prove. I' m not going to start appr oving tha t or the govern ment is not going to appr ove tha t in th ree or four years from now. I've appr oved wha t we're ready to go. Then, I've also given you another sched ule that this year we are appr oving funds to start the architectural design. Now that should be at least an indication. It should be if you want to take it.

You could practically take it and, stretching things a bit, say it's appr oved in principle because there is no way tha t we are going to appr ove funds . We haven't got tha t much money to th row away with no intention of ever going to con struction. No w, in that

schedule there's approxima tely $88 million, and I want everybody to be very familiar, to understand wha t I'm saying. No w, this year all the governme nt has appr oved is funds for plan nin g. Next year, either they will ask for more plannin g - that will have to be appr oved because plan ning is not done in one year; more mone y - tha t will have to be appr oved. We'll have to make ano ther decision but it's not appr oved ahead of time, or most of them will be fin ished and we'll say okay, we're ready to go; it is the intention in general now.

I don't want you to come back next year and say you prom ised all this was appr oved. It is not what I am saying. I am saying it is certainly the intention after tha t to follow through, take this package, go to the Cabine t and the Governme nt and say, now I want appr oval for th is. That would go in the mai nstream of a five-year program. Tha t is where it starts. Some of them, we might say no. Some of them, we might mod ify, but in general, and I am confident because we are following the guidelines that we have.

Now, I want flexibility to say fine, we're ready to go; we'll wait another year: we've got too much this year or the private enterprise is busy with a lot of construc tion, let's spr ead this around a bit; that is a possibility. Of course, we look at needs and priorities: the se are some of the thing s tha t will have to be looked at and, who kno ws, we're going to work very hard.

As the official Health critic for the members of the Op posi tion and myself and certainly the members of our staff, we agreed that we're going to keep on look ing to see if we could bring in better and cheaper ways of serving the people in providing the health care. It might be that then the guidelines will chan ge. Ten years ago not too many people heard of home care the way we have it now and that is someth ing tha t has cost a lot of money but it saved an awful lot more money and brought the good life to a lot of people. So you see, I want that flexibility also: I don't want to necessari

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-44a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 44a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	684418615de66a5cfc84b02b66fcb5ba2fb51494

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).