Manitoba Committee Hansard — 12 February 1980 (Public Expenditures Committee, Sitting 18, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-pe18

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Fourth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS 29 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker 10.00 a.m., TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 1980 Printed by W. T.Matwichyna, Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY O F MANITO BA THE STAIIDING COMMITTEE ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS Tueooay, February 12, 1980 Time: 1 0:00 a. m. CHAIRMAN: Mr. J. Wa lly McKenzie (Roblin). MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee will come to order. The fi rst thing that I request that the Co mmittee deal with, I ha ve befor e me here a note to the Chairman of the Committee of Privileges and Elections and to the Clerk of the Legislative Asse mbly: ''1, Ben Hanuschak , MLA for Burrows, tender my resignation from the ab ove-na med Committee, effect ive forthwith". So how do we deal with that? Mr. Waldin g. MR. D. JAMBS WALDING (St.

Vital) : Mr. Cha irman, I move the Committee accept the resigna tion and nominate Mr. Schroeder to fill the vaca nt position. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? (Agreed) I have before me, I guess, members of the Co mmittee ha ve a copy of the Draft Repo rt, The Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, wh ich we requested, the Minister's staff I guess, to prepare for us and I'll read it into the record: "Your Committee met on Monday, October 22, 1979, and elected Mr. McKenzie as Chairm an. The quorum for all future meetings was agreed upon as six members. The resignation of Mr.

Jenkins, because of illness, was accepted and he was replaced by Mr. Boyce. At the conclusion of the fi rst day of hearin gs, Mr. Domino tendered his resignation as a member of the Committee and he was replaced by Mr. Anderson. A request was received that the Committee travel to The Pas to hear the submissions of several organizations. Howev er, since the resolution referring the subject ma tter of the two Bills to the Committee did not contain specific authority for the Committee to conduct heari ngs outside of Winni peg, it was deemed improper for the Committee to hold such hearings.

Yo ur Co mmittee recommends that in future, the authority to hold such public heari ngs as is consider ed nece ssary be given to the Committee. Your Co mmittee agreed that the sittings of the Committee would be held from 10 :00 a. m. to 12:30 p.m.; 2:00 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.; and 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. It was agreed that where a brief was commenced prior to 10:00 p.m., it would be permitted to continue to its conclusion even though the deadline of 1 0:00 p. m. was exceeded.

Your Committee heard briefs fro m the following indi viduals and organizations on Bill No. 22, The Public Schools Act, an d Bill No. 23, The Education Administration Act, on dates as shown: October 22, 1979 Cana dian Association for the Mentally Reta rded Dr . John Curran Dale Kendall The Manito ba Association of School Business Offic ials Inc. - D. Cornell Winnipe g School Di vision No. l -Mrs. M. Spivak Special Education Administrators Association of Manitoba J. Fradette Manitoba League of the Physically Handicapped Mr s. Paula Si mpson Henry Enns La Societe Franco -Manito baine -Mau rice Arpin, Q.C.

Manitoba Federation of Independent Schools Inc. -J.C. Stangl - 1 -

LEGIS LATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA Manitob a Catholic Schools Trustees Associati ons - Mrs. Patricia Soenen Collegiate Div i sion, Univ ersity of Winnip eg-Alan Judd October 23, 1979 Manitob a Association of School Trustees N. G. Harvey Alien Rouse Mrs. Louise Lam b Roy Wh ite Ray White way Transco na-8pringfiel d School Div ision No. 12 - John Quail George E. Mar shall Manitoba Teache rs' Society - Mar ilyn Tho mpson John Enns Wally Pindera Kris Breckman Julien Levesque Wi nnipeg Teachers' Association of Manitoba Teachers' Society T. Clifford The Soc iety for Crippled Children and Adults Dr.

Arthur Majury Archie Carm ichael Ernie Masiowski Mike Owen Manitob a Association of Student Councils Deanne Schultz Stefan Deprez Michael Miller October 24, 1979 Social Planning Council of Win nipeg - Ti m Sale Roy Warman Manitoba Association for Children with Learning Dis abilit ies Mrs. Cornelia Johnson Heather Grant Manitoba Association of School Superintendents-Gordon Newton Manitoba Association for Ri ghts and Li berties- Garth Erickson Abe Arnold Waiter Hlady Fort Garry School Di vision No. 5-R. I. Scarth Riv er East Teachers' Association -Derwyn Davies Mrs.

Marlene Buffie -Private Citizen Concerned Pare nts of Winn ipeg- B. Plish ke Mrs. J. Ko nyk Mrs. Jeanne Pli shke Manitob a Association for Schooling at Home-Ms. Mar y C. Fi gure! October 25, 1979 St. Bonifac e School Di vision No. 4 - Mrs. Lucille Huot Mrs. J. Barker P. Martel R. Millier Manitob a Fe deration of the Visually Handicapped -Magnus Eli ason -2-

10 :00 a.m., TUE SDAY , FE BRU ARY 12, 1980 Fe deration Provinciale des Comites de Parents Roger Dubois P. Laurencelle Chi ld Guida nc e Clinic of Greater Wi nnipeg, Advi sory Council J. Si mpson Dr. H. Curtis David L. Jenkins -Private Citizen Commissaires d'Ecoles Franco-Manitobaine -Alfred Laurenc elle Manitoba Branch, Canadia n Parents for French -David Osborne Conseil Jeunesse Provinc ial -Guy Smith Ji m Garwood, Trustee, St. Boniface School Div ision No. 4 Ken Ka rlenzig -Private Citizen Mrs.

Evelyne Reese -Private Citizen Phi l Trottier -Private Citizen October 26, 1979 People's Education Policy, Manit oba Incorporated Mrs. Loretta Riedner Ken Alyluia Renaiss anc e Manit oba -Terry Lewis Bill Riedner -Private Citizen Mrs. M. Andrieshyn October 29, 1979 Mr. and Mrs. Robert Toews, Virden Labour Election Committee -Mrs. Mary Kardash The Manitoba Community Schools Association - Lynne Pinterics Patti Sullivan The Council for Exceptional Children -Cathi Hill Mrs. Guigerre - Concerned Parent Mrs. Lavoie -Concerned Parent Mrs. Helen Jenner -Concerned Parent Mrs.

Sybil Plattner -Concerned Parent Briefs were also received from the following and were distributed to all Committee Members: B.U.S. (Bus Up Safety) Committee, The Pas -Susan Lindsay, Chairma n N eil McQuarr ie -Individual, Brandon L'Association des Parents de l'Ecole Provencher -Mrs. c. Bouvier Certified General Accountants Association Angie Loat, Ke nville, Manit oba Probation Services, Juvenile Justice Committee Children's Aid Soc iety of Western Man itoba Legi slative Committee of the Local Advisory Council of Fort Garry School Di vi sion No. 5-Father Mirone R.

Klysh Canadian Alliance of Home Schoolers, Jarvis, Ontario Rev. James Reaves , St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church, Virden (endorsed by The Virden and Area Evang elical Ministe rs Fellowship) Rev. W. B. N ehring, Virden W. K. Zip rick, C.A., Provinc ial Auditor. Your Committee met on Nove mber 13 , 1979; February 12, to consider its report to the Legislature.

Your com mittee is apprec iative of the interest shown with regard to the education of our youth, as evidenced by the ma ny thoughtful and detailed briefs presented by the various organ izat ions and individ uals and the inform ative discussions which took plac e subsequent to the presentations. It is clear that the citizens of Manitoba regard the public school system as a vital function and a priority in our de mocratic society. -3-

LE GISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA Your com mittee also noted that a wide variety of opinions wa s expressed with respect to, not only the function and the purpose of the educational system in our society, but also the means by which the statutes should be given expression to the philosophical basis on which our children sh ould be educated. A major area of interest which was brought to the attention of your committee was the provision of educational services for all types of children with special needs.

It was the opinion of many who had made presentations on this topic that the legislation should make certain that the services and programs required by such students would be available to the m in accorda nce with their ne eds. Several briefs suggested that legislation should include a form of appeal mechan ism in order to ensure a more effective deliver y of such services and programs. Portal to portal transportation and easy access to school buildings were other points of concern with regard to students with special needs.

Opinions varied am ong various organ izations and individ uals as to the statutory delineation of the rights of pupils, parents and school authorities. Your committee recognizes the great diff iculty of giving expression to the provisions for such rights in legislation in a manner that would not leave them subject to varied

interpretations and limita tions. In the matter of instruction in the French language, several briefs suggested that there should be a clear defin ition of the right to provide programs in a physical and cultural environm ent conducive to maintaining, developing and enhancing French programs in the school system. Although opinions varied as to detail, most of the briefs heard with regard to this topic proposed a form of appeal mechanism by means of which proble ms arising fro m the implementation of legi slation might be resolved.

Your com mittee notes that, with regard to the rights, duties and responsibilities of teach ers, trustees and ad ministrators there are varied opinions concerning important ma tters such as due process, sick leave, and tenure. In the matter of independent schools your committee notes that of the several briefs dea ling with the topic, opin ions varied as to the role and function of such schools in the educational system. Some briefs suggested that direct funding by the province should be instituted, rather than payment through the public school authorities.

The role and the function of the public school system with regard to the inculcation of values, ethics, morals, and religion were drawn to the attention of your committee by several presenters. Concerns we re expressed with regard to the censorship of textbooks, the place of religious instruction, and exercises in public schools and availability and support for alternate forms of schooling. Your committee observes that there are opposing opinions with regard to the effectiveness and impact of The Greater Winnipeg Equalization Education Levy.

A number of briefs brought to the attention of your committee spec ial situ ations related to the core areas of the city. They pointed out the need for a continual effor t on the part of the legislators to consider ways and means of making maximum educat ional opportunities availa ble under all special circumstances. Various suggestions were made to your com mittee respecting clarification of certain aspects of rules of procedure for school boards as well as duties and responsibilities of teachers and trustees.

It became obvious to your committee that the general form at and arrang ement of the proposed legislation were accepta ble. However, in addition to the ma tters raised in the foregoing there were a number of requests for clarificat ion wi th regard to the intent of sev eral sections." And that is the report. Mr. McBryde . MR. RONALD MeBRYDE (The Pas): Mr. Chairperson, it's obvious that you did well in reading during your school days. One question I have for you, Mr. Chairman, or for the committee is in regard to whether there were any late submissions that are not mentioned in this proposed report.

I know that I've received two, and I assume that other members received two submissions, one from a person by the na me of Scanlan in regard to transportation for French Immersion and it was a copy of a brief submitted to the Fort Garry School Division, and another from a Mrs. Val Friesen, Parent's Action Committee for transportation relating to the River East School Divisio n. - 4 -

10:00 a. m., TUE SD AY, FE BR UARY 12, 1980 I wonder if those have been accepted by all members and whether we should include those in this report, and wh ether there are others that have been submitted that we didn't get a copy of individ ually. MR. CHAIR MAN: Any further discussion? I had copies of those two sent to me. I think they were sent to all members of the Legislature. -(Interjection)-- MR. MeBRYDE: I wonder if it would be worthwhile to just add a paragraph in there that late submissions we re received from and mak e sure Jack gets a copy from one of us. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeab le? Mr. McGill.

HON. EDW ARD McGILL (Brandon West): I wonder, the briefs of course were related to the matters under discussion.' We did establish a time for the reception of briefs, and is there any problem now with receiving briefs and further submissions after the date for having considered them by the committee has been passed? Is this a precedent that would cause any dif ficulty with other committee hearings? We, fro m time to time, in various com mittees of the House establish and advertise and ma ke people awar e of the dates on which these briefs can be presented.

Is it wi thin the norma l custom and usage and rules to receive briefs and presentations subsequent to that time? I ask that question. MR. CHAIR MAN: Well it see med to me, first of all, the original copy of any should be presented to the Clerk. The public has the right to send copies of briefs or submissions to all members of the Legislature at any time, but I think the correct procedure, if I'm not mistaken, in this matter would be that the original should have been filed with the Clerk and then we could deal with it. Have you any comments on that, Jack? MR. CLE RK: No, Mr.

Cha irman, outside of the fact that the original advertisem ent that was placed in the ne wspapers asked that any submissions be made to the secretary of the committee or to myself in this case. But as far as setting any precedent, I am not awa re that we would be doing such. I can't see any real harm in including it as part of our records. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR. MeBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Cha irman, it's not a large point but it's probably worthwhile in terms of that I would like to see another addition in here in terms of that we ma ke a recommendation that the briefs be availa ble to all members who are interested. -- just to be avail ab le to all members. Because the report itself doesn't sort of give the mood or atmosphere of the briefs very well, it's a general su mmary, and to make sure that members have full access to those briefs. If we had these two particular bri efs listed in our report, then members would be aw are of them.

It's an important subje ct, because we did have one or two briefs during our hearings on this ma tter of transportation for the French Langua ge schools, and it's one that the Minister is goi ng to have to make some decisions on fairly soon, so it would be worthwhile to have that inform ation avail able to all members in readily accessible form. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have so mething, Mr. Reeves ? MR. CL ERK: The only thing I would like to say in line wi th what Mr. McBryde has spoken about, we would make copies of the transcripts avai lable to all members of the House as soon as the House meets. - 5 -

LE GISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA If my memory serves me correctly, within each of the transcripts, so many of the briefs are shown and in total, all the briefs which we have received, with the exception of the two wh ich you mentioned this morning, would be there in detail. If I get some direction fro m the committee that the briefs are to be xeroxed and made available to everybody, or whatever you want to do gentlemen -it's entirely up to yourselves. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR. MeBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, there may be some members that are not interested in every single brief.

Just make sure that they are accessible to any member that wants them, rather than copy every one out, and the committee hearings are availab le to every member now, so that's not a problem. I would like to move that we include an addition in there that late briefs were received from and list these two ... MR. CHAIRMAN: We could note that they have been filed with the members of ... MR. MeBRYDE: •.. note that they were filed with members of the committee and just make a note of it in our report. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown. MR. ARNOLD BR OWN (Rhineland): Mr.

Cha irman, it was the respo nsibility of this committee to listen to the briefs presented to the committee and report on what was presented to the Legislature. We have heard the briefs, the draft report in my opinion, is an accurate account of the content of the briefs presented, so therefore I move, Mr. Chairman, that the report of the committee as presented, be adopted. MR. MeBRYDE: Mr. Chair man, there was sort of a motion on the floor before this motion was presented, and I don't know if that was accepted or not. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Well, I thought that we'd note in our submission that these briefs were - is that agreeable to committee -we note that these other two presentations have been made since the committee met last? Is that agre eab le? Okay, now, Mr. McBryde, do you want to speak on his motion? Mr. McBryd e. MR. MeBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chai rman, I would like to take a little bit of a look at the report. As I said, one of the problems with a general

summary report like this is that because it's so general it doesn't really reflect the mood or the feeling of the presenters, and one

section that's -it's the second paragraph wh ich does give a reflection of what took place in the committee, but sort of feels very weak or looks very weak in terms of the tone and the force of the presentations, and the fact that the ma jority of people presenting had concerns with the wording in the legislation, especia lly of

Section 41(5) and that the largest number of people represented in terms of presentations, that is the Teachers Society and other large organ izations, were wanting, very forcefully, to have the Minister strengthen this

section and not have such a weak

section that was in there. I don't know if there's a way to strengthen the wording or just to comment on that, and say that it doesn't reflect the strength or the feeling regarding special needs students and the kind of special efforts that have to be made by the school authorities and by the province in that regard. I wonder if the Minister wants to make any comment on that part or if he wants to give us some idea of his intentions in regard to that

section that was of concern to just about every single person that appeared befor e us. -6-

10:00 a.m., TU ES DAY, FE BRU ARY 12, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe we should just have a seconder for Mr. Brown's motion, then continue wi th the debate. --(Interjection)--Don't need a seconder? Oka y. Mr. Boyce. We re you wanting to speak, you had your hand up. MR. J. R. (Bud) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Ye s. The last paragraph on the last page, speaking to the motion, the sentence says, "it became obvious to your committee that the gen eral format and arrange ment of the proposed legislation wa s acceptab le." As one me mber of the committee, I don't think that was mentioned at all.

I was wond ering wh at the basis for that observation is, you know, to be included in the report. We have capab le, competent, legislative draf tspeople, but I just wondered if I was alone in not being aware of the obv ious in that regard. I don't think it was commented on at all. That's one question, the first question. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Cosens. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Chai rman, in responding to Mr. McBryde's observations, I think it is difficul t in any report to capture the depth of feeling of the presenters on any particular topic.

I suppose if we were to attempt to do that, and I think that is what you are suggesting, that there were a vast num ber of topics where the presenter ce rtainly had a great depth of feeling, and I'd suggest that in all cases , people were very genuine in the thoughts that they were putting forward. I have some dif ficulty in attempting to visualize how we could capture that depth of feelin g in any report of this nature, nor in looking at past reports of committees of this type, do I find any evidence that they attempted to capture the depth of feeling that you refer to. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR.

MeBRYDE: Mr. Chair person, maybe we could add in a sentence that said, "several delegations deplored the miserly attitude of the Minis ter of the Conservative Government." Mr. Chai rman, the point raised by Mr. Boyce is one that I intended to get to. I was sort of going through on a parag raph-by-paragraph bas is, and I wonder if I could do that for a couple of points of clarification and then we'll get to Mr. Boyce's point, which is the major one in terms of this report.

In the th ird paragraph, it says, "your committee recogniz es the great difficu lty of giving expression to the provision of such rights in legislation in a manner that would not leave them subject to varied

interpretations and limitations." I would like to know, what is the difficu lty I am having as a committee member in this regard? It's not clear to me what the great dif ficulties are. MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you care to comment on that, Mr. Cosens? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairma n, again on the basis of the presentations we received, we certainly in many cases receiv ed contradictory presentations in this regard, and I would suggest on the basis of that particular situation that if the committee were to ma ke some summation of what we heard as far as those particular rights were concerned we would have some diff iculty particularly where there wa s contradictio n. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR. MeBRYDE: Mr. Chairma n, I interpret that

section di fferently. My

interpretation is that there is a difficul ty in terms of being able to put it into legislation and not a dif ficulty in terms of that there are various proposals and how to pick amo J1?:st them and figure out what is the best for -7-

LEGIS LATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA the people of Manit oba. But it says the committee has diffi culty in giving expression to the provision of such rights, and I'm assuming that's some sort of a legal problem in terms of legislation, like they had problems drafting a Bill of Rights, I guess, and we have proble ms drafting our human rights legislation for Manitoba. But I'm having some dif ficulty recognizing and if I accept this report it says I do recognize and I don't at this point in time.

So unless the Minister can help me to recognize those points then I would like that changed somewhat or that particular sentence deleted. MR. COSENS: Mr. Cha irma n, If Mr. McBryde is saying that he has no difficul ty in this regard and that particular sentence doesn't reflect the committee's feeling, perhaps he would suggest so me amendme nt to it that would be more applica ble. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairma n, it's not that I have no diffic ulty, it's that I don't understand the difficulty that's mentioned in the report here.

Maybe Legislative Counsel could clarify if there is a diff iculty in terms of outlining these kind of rights within legislation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Balkaran. MR. BALKARAN: I think the members of this committee are aw are of the Human Ri ghts Act, and ever since that was enacted I believe every session of the Legislature since then has had ame ndments and there are further am end ments being proposed in all without vi olating any confidence at the forthcoming session and they continue to have trouble whenever you have codification of rights. Perhaps this sentence was indicative of that type of difficulty.

Whether the members of this committee feel that wa y or not I don't know. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairma n, I guess you have that problem wi th all legislation, that you try and set out what you want to do in the most effective way possible so that it meets legal requirements, ca n be interpreted in the courts, etc., etc. I guess that I don't find myself agreeing with the stateme nt that your committee recognizes the great dif ficulty.

Basically what it says to me is that the committee doesn't want any changes in this area that's talked about in this paragraph, in the area of rights of pupils, parents and school authorities, and I would like to see the Minister of Education and the government grapple wi th trying to see if it is possible to outline those kind of rights, and if I accept this particular sentence and it appears as a committee member, then I am saying that well it's just too diffi cult, let's not bother to try and deal with it. MR.

CHAIRMAN: If and when the Minister presents his legislation to the House, then that subject matter will be widely debated I'm sure. We are trying to summarize a broad type of statement here, and I can see the member's problem in expressing ... it certainly is a difficult subject to put it in black and white befo re us and have it acceptable to the House. MR. McBRYDE: How about, Mr. Cha irman, if we said something like, your com mittee recognizes that there is dif ficulty in giving expression to the provision of such rights in legislation in such a manner that would not leave them subject to varied

interpretations and limitations, however, would like the Minister to explore avenues to see if these rights could be outlined in legislation or something to that effect. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further comments? Mr. Cosens. - 8 -

10:00 a. m., TUE SDAY , FE BRUA RY 12, 1980 MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I think it's inherent in our whole report that all of the presentations will be examine d and will be consid ered and certainly the area regarding the rights of pupils, parents and school authori ties will come under that consideration the same as any other particular area that was presented to us in the hearings. That's in herent in the whole report as far as I'm concerned. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chair man, that's my concern because the generalities of the report say basically that all these items will be looked at, but this particular sentence says to me that this particular item will not be explored further because of the diffic ulties. If we state the difficulties in this way and since it's not the intention of the Minister, then maybe it might be the simplest thing just to delete that sentence because that sentence only serves the purpose. Like what purpose does it serve? It says there will be difficul ties and implies that we might not do it because of the difficulties.

So maybe the simplest thing would be just to delete that sentence because the Minister intends to explore the possibilities of rights of pupils, parents and school authorities being included in legislation. I would so move that that sentence be deleted from the report, Mr. Chairperson. MR. CHAIRMAN: ... be deleted? MR. McBRYDE: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further comment? Mr. Cosens. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairm an, I certainly have no great problem with that proposal.

I think the commen t, what we are suggesting that we delete of course is just a recognition of an area that does have so me difficulty fro m a drafting point of view and it was stated for that purpose. We all recognize the difficulty of this type of drafting and I believ e the sentence does little more than state that. I take no great exception, however, to the fact that the member is suggesting that there might be some implication that it's too difficult al though it doesn't say that. It merely recognizes the difficulty of attempting to put into legislation those particular rights.

It doesn't say it's too difficult. It says it is difficult. MR. McBRYDE: Maybe it would be worthwhile, Mr. Chairperson, to eliminate this part and add a sentence at the end, "the committee recognizes the great difficulty in changin g and improving any legisla tion". MR. COSENS: I wouldn't agree to that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further com ment? Those in favour of Mr. McBryde's ame ndment please signify? Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairm an, my colleague fro m The Pas puts me in a difficult position, I will vote for his motion but nevertheless I would like the record to show that his argument I don't think accept.

I've always spoken against the entrenchment of rights in statute because of the difficulties - it doesn't solve the problem. Those people who believ e that establishing in-statute rights solve the problem of human rights, I just want it on the record that my position hasn't changed relative to that, but I will support the motion. -9-

LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA MR. McBRYDE: It's not the diff iculty then, it's the principle. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further comments? Question. Those in favour of the am endment as proposed by Mr. McBryde please signify I declar e it carried. --(Interjection)--The last sentence starting from " your committee recognize the great diffi culty of giving expression to the provision for such rights in legislation in a manner that would not leave them subject to varied

interpretations and limita tions" will be deleted fro m the report. Any further comment on the report? Mr. McGill: MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairm an, whil e we're making some changes to the language here, this is a minor point and I don't think requires any kind of action, but would members agree that in Para 2, the second line thereof, the committee was the provision of education al services for children with all types of special needs, rather than all types of children with special needs. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you agree to that minor change? MR. McBRYDE: Agreed. MR.

CHAIRMAN: And it shall read, "A major area of int erest which was brought to the attention of your committee, was the provision of educational services for children with all types of special needs." Correct? Any further com ments regarding the report? Mr. McBryde. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chair person, there is part of one submission that I would like to see some consid eration given by this committee and I think to legislation in general, and that was the spokesperson for the Teachers' Society ask us to consider changin g the sexist language in the bill.

That basic ally means that wh ere it refers to the minister dealt to his delega tion, etc., etc. For example, Mr. Chair person, on

Section 37(a), "a trustee who abscinds hi mself," and then there are others, wh ere it says, "the minister shall do his, etc. etc." Mr.

Chair person, that was brought up and to me it was a significant point in regards to this legislation, others . . . and I guess it's fro m my own belief that the language that we use sort of reflects the attitudes of our society and what's goin g on and that this, in terms of legislators, this is one very small step we can take in terms of recognizing the equal rights and equal status of women within our society by ma king sure our legislation reflects that equality and doesn't revert back to the old sort of male domination of all institutions that has historically been the case unfortunately. So, Mr.

Cha irman, I would like to move that the paragraph be included "that the committee recommends that the language in the two bills be changed so that they are non-sexist." MR. CHAIRMAN: Any comment to Mr. McBryde's proposal? Are you ready for the question? All those in favour of his amen dmen t, please signify in the usual manner. --(Interjection)--Okay. Agreed. Mr. Boyce. MR.BOYCE: Mr. Chairm an, I have a quest ion. We see m to have reverted to paragraph by paragraph. I had asked the question earlier, I assumed that it would be answ ered when we get to the last paragraph. Is my assumption correct? MR.

McBRYDE: I think you should raise it aga in now. -10 -

10:00 a.m., TUE SDA Y, FE BRU ARY 12, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Balkaran. MR. BALKARAN: May I ask a question as a result of that motion? Do we now go through the whole bill.and all legi slation and wh erever you have his, change it to his or her or himself or herself? I think it would be chaos. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wa lding. MR. WALDING: Mr. Cha irma n, I believe there is

an Act called The

Interpretation Act, which makes clear various terminology in different bills. One of the parts of that Act, I believe, says that where one gender is used, it is assumed to include the other. I wonder if that does not take care of Mr. McBryde's concern. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR. McBRYDE: No, Mr. Chairman, because The

Interpretation Act stills leaves the language as it is. I mean if I pick up this bill and read the bill, it's the minister's "his" and the school board's "h im" or the school trustee's "hi m" and, Mr. Chairma n, in a couple of years, I mean, we might have Muriel Smith or Maureen Hemple as a Minister of Education and the legislation won't accurately reflect that. Now, The

Interpretation Act says "hi m" means "her" . In terms of the comments I made in terms of our changes in our society and the equality of women, that

Interpretation Act doesn't reflect changes in language that I'm talking about. And yes, I would like the draft ers of the bill to go through this bill and change it. There 's about 19 or 20 points and they're not difficu lt changes. I think that they could be handled fairly simply. Mr. Chairman, I would intend to pursue, during the session, the changes in other legislation as well as this one. But I would like this com mittee, being a committee on education, and how people learn about our society, that this committee reflect the current view of society in terms of equality of men and women in our society.

And, therefore, I'm pleased at the ame ndment I proposed was passed by the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I'm not an interpreter nor have I a legal mind to deal with matters such as this but I can see the concerns of the Legislative Counsel, Mr. Balkaran in this, and I wonder if he would care to comment now because we could create a real problem for us. I would think that maybe if there's changes to be made, that it should go through the suggestion of Mr. Wa lding, that we take a look at that Act. Do you care to com ment on that, Mr. Balkaran? MR. BALKARAN: Well, Mr.

Chair man, this is a matter that has been recognized for a long time now by the federal government and by all provincial governments and on balanc e, it's a ma tter of conven ience to have all tools and to go with the

Interpretation Act because of the resulting difficulty in drafting that will be created. And I'm sorry, Mr. Jim Ryan, who is with the federal Depart ment of Justice isn't here because he's got a compilation of a hundred diffe rent computations and variations wh ere it is just almost im possible to try and go through some of these statutes to accommodate that type of language. I don't think the intent of any bill is to be sexist. The balance of convenience is what dictates. We can use "her" and say fe minine includes masculine.

In fact, in one of the bills that's passed with respect to nurses, if you use the feminine gender and then added a clause wh ich says, "in this Act, feminine includes masculine because of male nurses." It's a nightmare for the drafts man, I can tell you that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. -11-

LE GISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chair person, yes, it is inconvenient. You know, it is inconveni ent to ma ke changes and in this case, with this bill here, I don't think it's very inconvenient or a huge problem. I mean there are - and I forget the fi gures, I think 19 or 20 places where "he" and "she" can be used together or "his" and "her" can be used together wi thout a big problem, or the pronoun dropped altogether in some cases. I don't see it as a big problem. And, Mr.

Chai rperson, you recall that it's going to be a big inconvenience in this Legislature to have the French language made more prominent. It's going to be a huge inconvenience compared to this inconvenien ce I'm talking about here, and yet we are willing to do that in order to establish the rights of certain people. I think this Committee should be willing to do that in order to establish the rights and the equality of men and wome n in our society and I don't see it as a huge problem. Mr. Balkaran will be more concerned when I bring it up in relation to other bills later on. For this bill it's fairly si mple.

But, Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased that my sub-amendment has passed and I would like us to then proceed with it as we approved it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further comment? Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: Do I get an answer to my question on the last section? I had asked to whom it was obvious, I mean perhaps the Minister can help me or he can refer to someone that's ..• MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Committee, it says. It says to the Committee. MR. BOYCE: Well, perhaps some other member of the Committee, Mr. Chairm an, can answer that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Cosens. MR. COSENS: Well, Mr. Chairm an, let me address that particular point.

I don't think, if my memory serves me we ll, we had one presentation out of the ma ny that we received that took exception at all with the format or the arra ngement of the legislati on, and if the member can point to one , then certainly this statemen t would not be valid. Howev er, again I say if my memory serves me correctly, there was not one particular presentat ion that took any exception at all wi th the format or the arrange ment. MR. BOYCE: Well, what I understand fro m the Minister's comment is that silence is consent in this regard. But you asked, Mr.

Chairman , are there any other comments and I would like to comment on the Report in general. I feel somewh at like Don Quixote without even a Sanchez . As one of the members who had taken strong exception to the two bi lls that were presented by the govern ment at the last Session of the Legislature, I for one had hoped that we would be able to have a number of meetings and heari ngs and public involve ment in one of our most important considerations when dealing with go vernm ent, and that is the whole philosophy of education. Mr.

Chairman, I would like the record to show my opinion of what has transpired, in that it became soon obvious that it was the int ention of the govern ment to use a tactic, the soft belly approach that they had responded to public pressure to see that they were in some political difficulty should they proceed with Bills 22 and 23, and we agre ed reluctantly to have these meetings but it was their intention to go through the exercise, and that was all.

We have several volumes of Hansard which will demonstrate that of which I speak , where the government members did not participate in any dialogue with the people who made presentation, and when I said that I feel like Don Quixote wi thout a Sanchez , it's the tactic has been successful in that this whole exercise has been gone through and very little has been done to raise the public awa reness of the govern ment's attitude towards the citizenry in general and with education specifically. -12-

10:00 a.m., TUE SDAY, FE BRUA RY 12, 1980 And I can best point out my case in this report.. . On the top of page 5 we are asked to support a motion which says: "Your com mittee observes that there is opposing opini ons wi th regard to the effectiveness and impact of The Greater Winn ipeg Equalization Education Levy." Mr. Chair man, this is not the time nor the place for me to go into detail. I will have. the occasion in the upcoming Session. But never theless, one-quarter of the population of the Province of Manitoba is being shafte d educationally, and I am refe rring to the old City of Winnipeg.

In Unic ity, the power base in the City of Winnipeg has shifted to the suburbs and it is compounded by the attitude of this government where they will do such things as "block fund" without any attempt to deal with the special problems of the old City of Winn ipeg, the downtown area. They come up with such things as increasing fines for truancy. They think that is going to solve their problem. But as I said, Mr. Chairman, I will have other occasions to go into my concerns in greater detail .

It is very difficu lt as I tried to participate in the Committee meetings which were held even to the point of trying to provoke argument with people who ca me before the Committee, because the concerns of inflation and une mployment and energy, all of the noises that are going on in our society, people are paying precious little attention to one of the most important aspects of our whole society and that's the education, the preparation of younger people for existence, and the attitude of the government to just sit back with a soft belly and let the people come here and make presentations with no attempt whatsoever to analyze the situation and to come up with a bill wh ich is support mechanism for the dollars which are eventually put into place by the vote in the House.

They have some preconceived idea abo ut what education should be, back to the basi cs, that education is one of the things that is on such low priority with this govern ment that, Mr. Chairman, I would like the record to show that in my opinion it is reprehensible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further com ments? Mr. Cosens. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chair man, perhaps I could respond to the member's re marks. I think he has some disposition to start debating the proposed bills at this time and I suggest this is not the forum in that regard.

I think he is being a bit presumptuous as far as the proposed bills are concerned in that he hasn't seen the final draft of the bills and wi thout having seen them he is prejudging. Certainly the govern ment is rather plea sed that we have had this opportunity to hear presentations from groups, associations , and private indivi duals in our society, their concerns regarding education. We have listened to those concerns. We will exami ne them, we are examining, and we will take into consideration those concerns in the final drafting of the bills. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: Mr.

Chair man, I am looking forwa rd to seeing the bills. I am not being presumptuous at all. All! was commenting on was what has transpired at the meetings of this Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Anything further? Mr. McGill. MR. McGILL: I don't think we can let some of the rema rks of Mr. Boyce go unchallenged. Mr. Boyce has lamented the fact that the memb ers of the committee didn't engage in arguments with the people who were submitting briefs as he attempted to do on occasion. I suggest Mr.

Chairman that that indicates some conf usion on his part as to the function of this committee which was to receive the brief s, to ask questions where there was elaborat ion required, but not in any way to attempt to change or to diff use the argument or position of the person presenting the brief. Mr. Boyce see ms to la ment the fact that that kind of procedure was not indulged in by members of this committee from the Government. Mr. Chairman this was -13 -

LE GISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA brought to the attention of the committee at the time when this straying fro m purposes of the committee was observed. So I suggest to you, Sir, and to the members of the committee, that it was our intent to act within the terms of the committee to receive the briefs, to ask questions, for such questions would add to the clarity of the brief, but not in any way to argue wi th the position taken with the person. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR. MeBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, I suppose that my perception of what took place at committee meetings is close to that of my colleague from Winni peg Centre. And that is that it appeared that it was a large part of formality or an exercise that is not designed to really elicit informat ion for change, but sort of to pacify the public that they were listened to and of course, we won't know. That will not be decided by us here now.

It will be decided when the Minister brings forward his new bill and then we 'll know wh ether in fact the Minister and the Govern ment was listening to what people had to say, whether they're able to reflect the mood and the spirit of the presentaters of the public -and the people here represented a large number of Manit obans, they were the official delegations representing a large number of people in our province ·-- whether the Governmen t's able to reflect that in the legislation and bring forward serious change . Mr.

Chai rperson, in that regard the last paragraph here is, when I first read it I thought that I was sort of agr eeing with the legislation. That's what it meant to me. Now the Min ister emphasizes the words: the form at and arra nge ment. Now, Mr. Chairman, that's the format and arrangement I assume that applies to all bills that are introduced in the Legislature, and since I, a brilliant and intelligent legislator, misrepresented that the first tim e I read it, I'm wondering if it would be wo rthwhile, Mr.

Chairperson, for us to just delete that clause,because it doesn't add anything to our report the fact that this bill is in the sa me form as other bills.

There 's lots of problems wi th the content, and I suppose that there be many like me if we leave this paragraph in there, that misintrepret that and say we are having some agree ment with the content of that legislation, therefore, I would like to see that paragraph deleted I would like to see if, in response to what the Minister said or my colleague said, ma ybe it would be worthw hile to add in another paragraph that the committee is looking forward to the substantial and signifi cant changes in legislation that the Minister will be bringing forwa rd as a result of these committee hearing s. Mr.

Chairman, I would move first off that we delete the last paragraph. It sort of doesn't mean that much and it can cause misunderstanding, and therefore, I would just move that the last paragraph be deleted fro m our report. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce. MR.BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chai rman, there is a motion on the floor now. MR. CHAIRMAN: I had your name down ... . MR. BOYCE: Since you put my na me down, there is now a motion. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ye s, okay. Any further discussion? Mr. Cosens. MR. COSE NS: Mr.

Chai rman, if I could speak to that point as well, I think the words "form at and arrange ment" certainly can't be confused with contents. I think they speak for themselves, and in relation to the old bi lls as they existed where the form at and arra ngement were confusing to say the least, the fact that we've been able to condense and rearrange and put things in an order that is understandable and can be usable by people out in the fiel d is what -14-

10:00 a. m., TUE SDAY, FE BRUA RY 12, 1980 is being commented on here; and I can't agree with the member fro m The Pas that that statement is irrelevan t or not important. I think it certain ly is a positive aspect of the bills that they are usa ble by the people who ha ve to refe r to the m. I've no problem at all with the words "format and arran gement". How we could confuse that with content is somehow some thing that I ha ve some problem comprehending. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR. MCBRYDE: Mr. Chai rman, what I would do then, Mr. Chairpers on, is to withdraw that sub-amen dment and mak e anot her one.

And that's that a final paragraph be added following that one so that there can be no misunderstand ing, that the committee beca me well aware of the fact that the legislation as proposed was not acc eptable to the majority of Manitobans and I've asked the Minister for substantial and signif icant changes in the legislat ion. I so move, Mr. Chairperson. MR. CHAIRMAN: What was that? Wi ll you repeat that so I can .. . MR. McBRYDE: I don't know if I can, maybe someb ody wrote it down.

That the committee is aware that there is dissat isfaction with the proposed legislat ion just havi ng some trouble with my English here- fro m the majority of Manitoban s. Does that fit? Help me with my En glish. The committee therefore recommends that substa ntial and signif icant changes be made by the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: Substantive changes ? MR. McBRYDE: Substantial and signif icant. MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't see how we can because we ha ven't seen the bill .. . to propose legislation ... MR. McBRYDE: No, we ha ve the proposed legislation here. I'm talking about these bills that we looked at. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Oh� I see. Bills 22 and 23 then. MR. McBRYDE: And then the Minister wi ll come forward with substantially differen t bills. MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe if we put dissatisfaction with Bills 22 an d 23, would that .. . MR. McBRYDE: That would be good. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson for helping me redraft that wording. MR. CHAIRMAN: This is an am endment proposed by Mr. McBryde that the committee is aware there was - I guess - dissati sfaction with Bills 22 an d 23 fro m the majority of Manitobans . The Com mittee therefore recommends that substantial and signif icant chan ges be made in the new legislation. Mr.

McGill. -15-

LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA MR.McGILL: Speaking aga inst the motion, Mr. Chairm an, I think the motion makes an assumption that we have no statistical evidence to support and that is that a majority of Manitobans take a particular view wi th respect to the legislat ion. So I think I cannot support a motion of that type. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce. MR.BOYCE: Mr. Chairma n, a moment ago the Minister used as an argument that people were si lent, so therefore they approved of the format of the bill. If there is an ything which is obvious or should be obvious to the committee, is every one of these briefs had criticism of both bills, 22 an d 23. So the co mmittee has heard fro m a cross

section of Manitoba, well represented, an d if there is any bas is for anything there's the inclusion of this pa rticular am endment because every si ngle one of them had a criticis m of one or the other bi lls or both. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown. MR. BROWN: Mr. Chai rman, I also ha ve to speak in opposition to the am endment that has been proposed by the Member for The Pa s.

I howev er would be prepared to make an amen dment to the motion which I made, which probably would be wording it in a little different way but I think which would proba bly express his concerns, but I believ e that we have to deal with this amendme nt first, do we? MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. MR. MeBRYDE: As part of the member's contribution to the debate maybe he could say how it could be improved or change d to be acceptable to hi m. MR. BROWN: Okay. The motion that I made originally was to move that the report of the committee as presented be adopted.

We could add on to that," howev er your committee recommends that the Minister of Education in draf t an d revised legislation for submission to the Legislature give cons ideration to the va rious matters which were brought to the attention of the committee and which are herein reported." I think that would express the concern of the Member for The Pas that the Minister do. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR. MeBRYDE: Mr.

Chairpe rson, that is an improvement but it doesn't go nearly as far as the ame ndment that I have proposed an d I think that it was obvious, as it stated in other sections of our report, certain things were obvious an d we beca me aw are of, an d that there was interest in, etc., that the bills in their existing for m were not acc eptable, and Mr. McGil l refe rs to the fact that there is not a majority. But if Mr.

McGill would look over the list of the people making submissions, that in all of those submissions there were sections of bills that were not acc eptable or that were reco mmended for change , he would see that there is a majority as we are ab le to determine it here.--we can't do a ga llop poll --but the committee beca me aw are that the majority of people opposed this or foun d problems with these particular bills. I don't think Mr.

McGill needs me to read off all the groups that did make a submission but they are all the major groups interested in education in the provi nce of Manitoba, plus a nu m ber of indiv iduals, but these are large organ izations representing thousands of people. So, Mr. Chairpe rson, I would like my motion to stand the way it is. -16 -

lO:OOa.m., TUE SDAY ,F EBRU ARY 12, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McGi ll. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chair man, with respect to Mr. McBryde's argum ent, it still seems to me that it's a non sequitur for Mr. McBryde to assu me that because a nu m ber of people presented bri efs, all of which had criticisms of the proposed legislation , that a majority of the people in Manit oba object to the legislation. I still think it does not follow because it is well known that people who agree with what is proposed are not likely to undertake to come to the Legislature to present a brief to present that position.

So I still think we have not established that a majority of Manit obans object to the legislation . MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further com ment? Mr. McBryde. MR. MeBRYDE: Mr. Chairpers on, through you to Mr. McGill. Would the member vote in favour of the resolution if the words,"majority of Manitobans" were cha nged to "the presenters to the com mittee?" MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairm an, I think we should vote on the motion as it is. MR. MeBRYDE: Well, Mr. Chai rman, if the member could give me some indication one way or the other then I would cha nge the amen dment and it wouldn't have to be defeat ed.

If it could be made accept able to Mr. McGill by a change of a couple of words, then it could be approved. If the couple of words are not acceptable to overcome Mr. McGi ll's concern then we could vote on it, but I would withdraw it and change it to meet Mr. McGill's wishes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McGi ll. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chair man, I would prefer to deal with motion as it is presented. If Mr. McBryde then wishes to present a subsequent motion wi th differen t wo rds then we can deal with that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR. MeBRYDE: Mr. Chair person, in response then it's obvious to me that Mr.

McGill is opposed to the idea that the bill was not acceptable, an d not opposed to the specific wording, majority of Manit obans . He just doesn't like the idea that this bill introduced by his government was not acc eptable, but it beca me obvious during the initial introduction in the Legislature an d that's why the Minister withdrew it. It beca me obvious in the submissions we had here that the legislation as proposed is not acceptable. And when Mr.

McGill talks ab out majority he reminds me of the new proposed Fishing Regulation s which every fish erman has rejected and yet the Minister of the Conservative government still says well that's maybe not a majority or maybe everyone doesn't reject it. And so, Mr. Chairma n, I would like it, you know, to be obvious that Mr. McGill opposes the idea not the specific wording of this ame ndment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The amen dment as I ha ve before me is worded as such " that the committee is aware that there was dissatisfaction with Bills 22 and 23 fro m the majority of Manitobans .

The com mittee therefore recommends that substantial and signif icant changes be made in the new legislation." All those in favour of that am endment as proposed by Mr. McBryde please si gnify in the usual manner. MR. CLERK: Yeas 4, Nays 5. -17 -

LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare the proposed ame ndm ent lost. Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , you had my na me on your roster there and then a motion intervened. Wi th reference to Mr. McGi ll's earlie r remarks I would just like to underline that there is a diffe rence of opinion between Mr. McG ill and myself as to the functioning of committ ees. After ten years I still believ e that the Legislative Committee should be an instrument to elicit opinions and feelings of the citizens of Manit oba as to what the legislation should be.

In fact that's the very function of the Legislative Committee. That's why all bills go to Law Amendments Committee. They come outside of the House so the public has an opportunity to exp ress their views an d that the legislators have an opportunity to dialo gue with the citizens of the province. I know Mr. McGill doesn't believe in this. I know the Conservat ive Party doesn't believe in this. I know it's inscribed in the Senate Library in this country that the responsi bility of the nobles is to protect the state against the fi ckle ness of the people.

Legislativ e committees are beco ming a fa rce in this country, Mr. Chairman , and I will continue as an elected representative to use the committees as I see fi t without reflectin g on the Chair and his inability to call me to order if he or she thinks that I am out of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McGregor. MR. McGREGOR (Virden): Mr. Chair man, I would just like to com ment in ans wer to Mr. Boyce's ea rlier suggestion that we were silent over here. I ha ve only the last fe w Hansards and I guess the other bundle are at home.

I am certain ly one that's recogni zed as one of the quieter members, but I would just refer to page 355 , 356, 542, 543, 380 and 38 1, where I think generally I was askin g for clarif ication, lest it be put on the record that I for one was completely silent. I don't think that's a fa ct an d it's certai nly backed up by these three Handards and I quickly glanced at the others; I don't see it, so I just want the record to show that, Mr. Chair man. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McBryde. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairma n, on this important point here that's going back and forth in the Committee, I think that in fact the Conservativ e members did come to life late in the Committee and did start asking questions of' people. There was one stage though on a number of presentations wh ere there were no questions from the Conservative side an d therefore we didn't as k any questions and one deleg ation we nt aw ay without a single question because we just wanted to demonstrate that members opposite us on the table were not in fact using the Committee to ask questions and get further clar if ication. Mr. Chairman , perhaps Mr.

Brown would like now to introduce his changes less accept able but nevertheless a slight improve ment over what we have now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Proceed, Mr. Brown. MR. BROWN: In addition to the motion which read: ''I move that the report to the Committee as presented be adopted" I would add: "Howe ver, your Committee recommends that the Minister of Education •.. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Walding, on a point of order. MR. WALDING: The motion before the Committee was made by Mr. Brown. I belie ve it's unacceptable for a member to ame nd his own motion. -18 -

10:00 a.m., TUE SD AY, FE BRUAR Y 12, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN: That's right; that's correct. Mr. McGill MR. McGILL: Mr. Chai rman, I'm in a little bit of a dile mma here. The original motion, it seems to me by our act ions has been defeated. We have cha nged the report in one or two minor ways. It se ems to me that that original motion would not be the one that we would now be dealing with. I would as k your ruling on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that right, Jack? MR. CLERK: I would think so, yes, because we have changed the report substantially.

I think the original motion sh ould be withdrawn and resubmitted to reflect the amen dments which were made and agreed to by the committee. MR. McGILL: We have accepted certain am endments to the report .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Therefo re, it would be in order for Mr. Brown to withdraw his original proposal and introduce a new one. Is that agr eed? (Agreed) Proceed, Mr. Brown. MR.

BROWN: Okay, the motion would then read: "Y our com mittee recommends that the Minister of Education in drafti ng revised legislation for submission to the Legislature, give consideration to the various matters which were brought to the att ention of the Committee and which are herein reported ." I move that the report of the Committee as am ended be adopted. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you have a copy of that for the Clerk, Mr. Brown? Any further com ments? All those in favour, sig nify in the usual .. • Mr. Wald ing. MR. WALDING: Just a minute, Mr. Chair man.

I have to agree wi th some of the earlier comments that were made as to the purpose of the Committee and I would remind members that the two Education bills did in fact die at the end of the last session and it was the subject matter thereto that was referred to the Committee, the subject matter being Education, I believe. Wh en I first read this Committee report it seemed to be so neutral as to be meaningless. Really what Mr.

Brown is saying in moving this is that we sat here for some thing like a week and listened to si xty presentations from people who had obviously spent a lot of time an d effo rt,put a lot of thought into draf ting their presentations to the Committee and now this Committee has no opinions on the matter. That wha t Mr. Brown is saying to us that we heard all of this information and everybodys opinion on it and we have no reaction at all. All that we're saying is, acco rding to Mr. Brown, that we're askin g the Minister to think about it.

In other words, the members of this Committee are not ab le to think for themselves an d to for m ulate any opini ons. The motion that was made earlier by Mr. McBryde, I believe, took accoun t of that and to some extent expressed this side's concerns ab out education and some of the problems thereto. And the fact that it was voted down by the government members sim ply bears out what I have been sayi ng, that they expect us to have no reaction and no opinions on it. I wonder if Mr.

Brown, in making this motion, is now prepared to write a lett er to all of these 60 people an d say that your Committee went through the exercise of sitting there for a week and earning its $50.00 a day and now has no opinion at all and send it back to the Minister to do something about • Well, Mr. Chairm an, I recognize that there is some problems an d that there are things that ought to be done. There are problems with the financing of education, there are problems with declining enrolment, there are problems with Bill 58 and the special needs that -19 -

LE GISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA were pointed out so cle arly to us. I recognize there are problems with school transportation, the rights of students that we re mentioned and I'm just going through some of these. If the government members are not prepared now to sit down and consider educat ion in its entirety which was the ma tter that was referred to us, then we might as well just vote on this motion and leave because there is really no other point in us being here, if we are not to do what the Committee was in structed to do. So I sim ply leav e it at that and say, Mr.

Brown might not have any opinion s and other members of the Committee, but I believe that some of my colleagues do and tha t's what we would be prepared to discuss. I just hav e one further question of Mr. Brown, of the last paragraph on page 5 which says, "the re we re a number of requests for clarification". I wonder if Mr. Brown is prepared to give that clarification to those people at this time. MR. BROWN: To the people who are presenting the brief? Mr.

Chairm an, this Committee was set up for one purpose and that was to listen to presentations by people who were concerned about education and about Bills 22 and 23. There is no doubt about it in anybody's mind that this was the purpose that this Committee was set up for. Now if Mr. Walding wants to debate the issues which were presented he'll have am ple time to do so in the Leg islature when these bills are going to be presented by the Minister. This over here is not the forum for debate, this meeting certainly is not the time and place for debate.

We're here to either adopt this report and continue debate on the presentations that were made in the Legislature or we turn down this draft report . It's as si mple as that. We are here for no other purpose. MR. CHAIRMA N! Any further corn ment? Mr. Walding. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairm an, that's just incredib le. I've never heard it suggested before that a committee is not a place to deb ate. Every committee that I've been on has been subject for debate by members and you, Mr.

Chairm an, have sat at several of them, I know that other members of the co mmittee too, hav e long experience of some very protracted and often very heated debates at committee meetings. Mr. Brown's contention that all the committee is to do is to accept and listen to presentations is I believe, not correct. The Clerk now is looking for the actual words of referral to the committee and my recollection is that it was the subject ma tter thereto, bein g the ma tter of education that was referred to the committee, not a matter of the committee sitting here just as passive listeners.

And I will now read it to you, Mr. Chair man , from the Journals of Tuesday, the 5th of June, where it says, "The Public Schools Act be not now read a second time but that the order for Second Reading be discharged, the bill withdrawn and the subject ma tter thereof referred to the Standing Committee on Privi leges and Elections." Now, that doesn't agree with Mr. Brown's understanding of the work of a committee and I believ e backs up wha t I said befor e about the subject matter thereof. The subje ct matter thereof, Mr. Chairm an, wa s quite clearly education.

Can I also just add to that, that Bill 23 was worded in the sa me manne r and that the subject matter of it, that is Bill 23, also be referred to the Standing Committee on Pri vileges and Elections. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairm an, there wa s a little bit of a disagr ee ment. This is perhaps on an understanding of the fu nctioning of the committee. There was a motion presented at the last session of the Legislature which is a traditional thing, on the motion of Honourable Mr.

Lyon, ordering that standing committees of this House for the Thir ty-First Legislature be appointed for the following purposes, and it lists the committees of the Legislat ure including Privi leges and Elections, "whic h sev eral committees shall be empowe red to exam ine and enquire into all such matters and things as may be referred to the m and report fro m time to time their observations and opinions thereon with the power to send for persons, papers, documents and examine witnesses under oath.'' -20 -

10:00 a. m., TUE SDAY, FE BRUA RY 12, 1980 This is one of the things that I referred to earlier, that the committees of this Legislature are becoming a farce; that it should be just the antithesis of that wh ich is trying to be pushed by the two members opposite, that all the committees are supposed to do is come and sit here and absorb public input with ab solutely nothing else, no other responsibility. And, Mr. Chairm an, if this persists, then the whole system is being Pl!t in jeopardy.

It is the responsibility of elected members under our parliamen tary system to mak e this system work, and for people to suggest that because they personally have the attitude or collectively develop the tactic that all they're going to do is sit here and absorb the public's criticism and then even defeat motions which says there are no criticisms, our whole system is in jeopardy. So, Mr. Chairman, I just want the record to show that I, as one member, do not subscribe to the position taken by either Mr. McGill or Mr.

Brown, that legislative committees are supposed to just sit here and absorb wi thout any other function at all. The legislative committees have to become more in volved in the functioning of our total parliamen tary system. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further comment fro m the com mittee? All those in favour of Mr. Brown's motion do you want me to read it into the record again? However, I will.

" Your committee recommends that the Minister of Education and Drafting revise legislation for submission to the Legislature, give consider atio n to the various ma tters which wer e brought to the attention of the committee, and which are herein reported. We move that the report of the committee as am ended be adopted." Agreed? Please signify in the usual manner. All in favour? Those that are opposed? I declar e the motion carried. Committee rise. -21 -

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-pe18
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf pe18.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	685f5d91dfc03fbdd7a7e1e976390272162c1a29

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